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Anne-Marie Bresee: So

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Anne-Marie Bresee: I'm a graveyard enthusiast sometimes referred to as a tombstone tourist, just in case you're wondering and you didn't get that impression from the title.

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Anne-Marie Bresee:  I took this image years ago. Its rediscovery took me back to that day, and the thoughts of how peaceful these 2 ladies appear, as they were literally surrounded by the past. At Mount Cemetery, in Toronto.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: I look at the image and experience a nostalgic desire for my own past and my own friendships.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The photograph became the foundation of a portfolio and an end of term assignment on monuments and memorialization for a graduate course

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Anne-Marie Bresee: to create the rest of the portfolio. I invited 5 amateur photographers to spend a Saturday afternoon with me, observing, recording, and analyzing the heterotopic nature of Mount Plus and cemetery.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Convenient sampling was used, and that the focus was on getting research participants quickly and easily.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: We could just call them friends. I was familiar with the photographer's work, and how their imagery reflects their eclectical viewpoints.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The participants share a hobby of camering a term they coin to describe the interest in seeking out and photographing locations.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: 2 of us have formal training and photojournalism. 2. In photography, a fine art, and 2 have no formal training that enjoy photography as a legionally pursuit

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Anne-Marie Bresee: as an art form. Photography serves as a medium for the participants to express their own emotional response to the dichotomy of death and life experienced within the walls of the cemetery.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: informed only that the theme of the photographs was to be life in the cemetery. The participants received no further instructions or specifications as to what elements to include in their images.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Photographs reflect the symbolic relationship between people and places, and the ways that persons invest places with meaning and value in order to make sense of their world.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: opened in 1876, mount Pleasant Cemetery is Toronto's first nondenominational cemetery.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Within this space boundaries blurred between life and death, as do the boundaries between the sacrum and secular as well as memorial memory and identity, making it a spou code describes a place unlike ordinary cultural spaces.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: there are 6 principles that define heterogeneous.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The first is that every culture has a spate has such places.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The second is that their function changes as society changes

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Anne-Marie Bresee: the case of a sanitary. The function as a burial place has not remained static Garden Cemetery, such as Mount Pleasant. Mark has significant change in the nature of dust state.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Many believe dark tourism is a new phenomenon. But garden cemeteries were intentionally designed to be tourist attractions, a geographic space of internment, contemplation, and recreation. The cemetery is also a space of emotion, commerce and community.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Today Mount Pleasant is listed as one of the top 10% places to visit in Toronto

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Anne-Marie Bresee: the epitaphs, monuments, and sculptures are consciously created to honor the lived experience. They detailed birth, dates, and dates of death as well as the life experience in between religious beliefs, social class, personal interest, and the intersection of social roles, such as mother, daughter, and wife

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Anne-Marie Bresee: honoring the lived experience. The memorial monuments make the public statement that this loss is important.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The monuments also create an idealized sense of the deceased identity based on this Utopian identity. The observer reinterprets the past.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The result is a contradictory experience of imagining connections to people of the past, but also experiencing connections to people in the present.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: For example, it is the spectator who defines what it means to be a wife or a mother.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: It is the spectators, past events that become re-significant in the present interpretation of the epitaph.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Now, pleasant cemetery is unique in it's west to east design. So I think I must have skipped a page.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Okay, let me just go back a little bit.  okay.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: So there's multiple identities and relations that others otherwise are incompatible, that are brought together, designed to meet the needs of the dad, their breed and the visitors. Cemeteries encourage the cultural engagement of each group.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Our project culminated in approximately 200 images, which were then collectively edited down to 25

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Anne-Marie Bresee: of these 3 Portray Angels, giving the false impression. There are multiple photographic opportunities for the angels.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The process of both taking and selecting the images are also worth, also reflects how archiving as defined by Derrida is always an unfinished reconstruction of the past, because material is restricted, repressed, discarded, found, exhibited, and reinterpreted

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Anne-Marie Bresee: through art. Effective memories are brought to light.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: For example, the angels reminded one participant of a family exploration of Renaissance Italy

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Anne-Marie Bresee: from an artistic perspective. The angels are intriguing, they photograph well in black and white.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: It is the matter of texture

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Anne-Marie Bresee: handmade from soft limestone the angels are further aging, further shaped by both time and acid rain.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: There is an irony that the 180,000 people interred in the cemetery are also aging. That fact of life, however, remains hidden, buried under the monuments.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: So, as I was saying, the the monuments and sculptures

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Anne-Marie Bresee: honor, the light, the lived experience. They detailed, birthdays and death dates, as well as the of the experience in between

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Anne-Marie Bresee: They also

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Anne-Marie Bresee: create an idealized sense of the deceased identity. and it is up to the observer to reinterpret that

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Anne-Marie Bresee: so Mount pleasant is unique and that it has. It's West to east. Linear design enables the stroll through each epoch of dominant social thought.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: For instance, the gravestones and inscriptions become standardized and simpler. In the 1920 s. And 30 s. Marking a time of economic depression.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The standardization creates a cemetery symmetry where all the gray graves are in a row equally spaced apart, just wide enough for a lawnmower to pass by

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Anne-Marie Bresee: the production line. Illusion of the grave serves as a reminder that morning ritual that morning. Rituals are a manufactured social tradition.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The closeness of the monuments also makes the evolution of the multicultural society visually apparent, as the names change from predominantly English to a mixture of Greek, Italian, Jewish, and Chinese. To name a few.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: This social genealogy leads to the inclusion of this third photograph.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: As a photograph. It records the pattern of light, color, and shape, but as an artistic image it does so much more.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The participant was currently studying light in a photography course. Consequently the present was very much affected.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Her visual interpretation of the past. The resulting image is a good metaphor for societal interconnectedness. It is in keeping with this fourth principle that is associated with disruptions of traditional timelines.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: It takes sensual delight in the texture of time, not measurable by clocks and calendars.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Cemeteries tend to be defined by their primary function of a burial site which by their nature also preserve social history. It is an addition to a in addition to a space maintained for mourning, the cemetery also becomes a venue for recreation.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: I was surprised by the group's unspoken tenant about photograph photographing people. We did not focus on one another that seemed insensitive and invasive, blurring the line of public action and private thought.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: There are 5 images of us. All of them are up our backs. I include these awful pictures, and they are truly awful because they reflect the ideology of the group.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and even though they are truly admittedly awful. I have them in my family photo album.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: It is a telling commentary that none of the participants would delete any of their own pictures, even when another had taken a better image and was willing to share

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Anne-Marie Bresee: the better image was simply added to their existing collections. There's no rational reason to keep an inferior image other than one can do so because of ever expanding computer memory.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Included in the archive is the photograph of a couple walking their dog.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The only listed recreational use of man-pleasant cemetery is hiking and walking trail, jogging trails that are listed online.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: But I had just discovered. The group had major issues photographing people, and they each refused to take the image.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The interesting aspect of photography is that no one knows what happens before the picture is taken or after.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The photographs are ubiquitous. In today's society we tend to forget photography is artificially constructed in terms of composition, lighting, production, and even post-production. Thanks to Photoshop

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Anne-Marie Bresee: in the next photo.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: I crop the tour so and focus on the Celtic cross colored red by its own dying process and erosion.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: This classic shot of ruins can be taken anywhere. There is nothing to actually indicate. It's from Mount Pleasant Cemetery.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: There is no plaque plaque reflecting political nostalgia and no epitaph honoring an individual or group's lived experience.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: This lack of identity makes radical use of the cemetery space.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: It is the responsibility of the observer to derive meaning in the ruin. Such interpretations, however, is seldom left to the individual. Nostalgia is often institutionalized and sanitized in national and provincial museums

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Anne-Marie Bresee: the question then becomes not only what is included in an archive, but who gets to decide?

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Archiving is not a linear process. It's recursive. Nature provides the opportunity to rethink categories as patterns emerge. A story also emerges of the interplay between the spiritual, cultural, economic, political, historical, and recreational

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Anne-Marie Bresee: archiving becomes a reimpression of the group's collective and individual memories.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Such reimpression, however, is not without consequence. There is an intentional and unintentional suppression of images not shown, and also of experiences not documented, and of course the same can be said of the epitaphs.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Effective memories do not preclude compassion, judgment, or critical reflection. The massing family museum mausoleum reflects the connections between public space and the micropolitics of family economics and even religion.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: It is designed by Toronto, architect, E. J. Lennox, in a Romanesque revival style, the preferred architecture.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: architectural style of the late 18 hundreds.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Admittedly the photographers preferred this dramatic architecture of the older section of the cemetery, often overlooking the newer sections.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: In utilizing the sections. Hilly terrain, the the placement of the mausoleum ensured, it could be seen from many vantage points. It is certainly dominates the landscape, replicating in death the existing societal stratification at the turn of the century.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: At the same time it serves as an example of the reflective nostalgia host in all of Mount Pleasant memorials, a private expression that is open for all to see.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The cemetery

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Anne-Marie Bresee: is a unique memory, place, spiritual and material, in which we relive the past, explain the present, and prepare for the future.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The monuments and their epitaphs become silent storytellers. Not all are happy ever after tales, some are heartbreaking. Some are cautionary in nature, some are inspirational. Within this heterotopia the tale of a city's rich, cultural, social, and political legacy becomes a photogenic open book.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The photographs themselves could be defined as heterotopias, they, too, become spaces of otherness, which are neither here nor there that are simultaneously physical and mental.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The photograph gains and loses meaning, at the same time depending on who is doing the viewing.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: They also reflect an expression of remembrance of how Mount Pleasant is the place for not only the dead, but also the living.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Thank you.

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Thanks. And

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 shall we see if

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I think.

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okay? Well, I think that. Yeah. No, because the third speaker actually sent the we transfer that we cannot.

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Is there one of

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so I think how much it is of mind when I music.

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Jana Vukić: I, we had some problems. And I'm here instead of jujits. Aega, who had to to. We are the co-authors.

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Jana Vukić: Yeah, yeah. Of course, I I see your name. It's okay. I can present absolutely. That would be great. it's 10'clock in the morning here in Croatia, in Europe. So I'm so sorry.

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Jana Vukić: do you see?

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Perfect. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So

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Jana Vukić: okay. I think I can.

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Jana Vukić: that's it from.

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Jana Vukić: you can see it. Now, is it? Okay?

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Jana Vukić: my colleague's jujits, and one of the Bosniak from department to department of sociology and faculty of humanities and social Sciences, University of Zag or Croatia. Europe are not here, but with me at the moment. But we all greet you and thank you for this opportunity. Our team is visual construction of the city in education and emerging methods.

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Jana Vukić: the logical and ethical issues. So I will try to be very quick, and I will try to move to the next slide. Okay? we, we thought, there's contemporary urban context is very fruitful for visual sociology, because it brings up a sociological imagination.

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Jana Vukić: this is

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Jana Vukić: You can always compare the old pictures with some new things which are surrounding our students. So it's always interesting to compare and to to a research. Here the objectives of this presentation. The first one is focus on sociological imagination in everyday city life, using visual sociology

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Jana Vukić: and trying to explain in the social relations, institutions, and social systems as a result of everyday actions. which is something that happens all around us. And it's visible to the students.

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Jana Vukić: The second focus, second objective is educational use of a primary and secondary visual data, material and urban spaces in order to connect them to a sociological concepts and theories which are complicated like power relations so show and spatial transformation. And memory and place making, for instance.

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Jana Vukić: th. Those are the examples that we'll show you. And the third one third objective is teachers, competences for instructing students to conduct such projects and assignments. related to urban spaces while using different research methods and also the objectives to, to, to just to emphasize that there are possible shortcomings of this teaching method both in methodological and ethical issues.

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Jana Vukić: So we are trying to to use contemporary urban or spatial context and visual sociologic to together. Because this today's world is

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Jana Vukić: highly hyper visual world It was before easier to to understand or to teach about it, because there was a symbolic space of the city division and the physical space of the city, and they then can be, they could have been connected. But today we have this hypervisual dimension which changes but gives the opportunity

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Jana Vukić: for visual sociology as well. So we approach spaces both so symbolic and material combined in a social space as such

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Jana Vukić: we use Martin l's definition of I'm sorry space is a relational arrangement of social goods and people. and that's the constitution of spaces in action is a process of negotiation with other actors. So there are power relations and such things that we can be, and that can be research during using those approaches according to Martin. L,

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Jana Vukić: the constitution of space is a process that has 2 operations or 2. 2 parts. One is spacing

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Jana Vukić: placement of people which which will and good since and symbolic markers is. we can refer as a physical space. And then there is a synthesis which is synthesis in perception, in memory and abstract imagination. So we have to connect and make the meaning of this

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Jana Vukić: spacing, or anything that we see

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Jana Vukić: also, this brings us to the very important thing of which matina Lev emphasizes in that is, the emerges of places and of atmospheres. So we found that visual sociology is very powerful, too, for connected social and spatial aspects of city and our society as well to teach students about sociological aspects.

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Jana Vukić: the part of educational use of visual data. there are different techniques of using visual content and teaching different types of teaching and different sources. So we we'll show you 2 examples of

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Jana Vukić: this in the later presentation, visual data sources, such as photographers, photographs can be used in teaching on sociological concepts and the to improve which is very important for us. A students critical thinking. also, visual data can be used in more advanced classes where students participate in a larger, larger research projects based

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Jana Vukić: on qualitative methods, such as visual ethnography or documentary photography. and they bring ethical and other issues more clearly to them. So it's very, very useful providing. Okay, the possibility to students to participate in such projects positively affect higher level cognitive skills

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Jana Vukić:  finding general analytical focus using and finding a pre-existing visual material. So researching a new materials and human behaviors in city environment and then combining it with theories and frameworks related to the specific subject team is something that we do with our students.

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Jana Vukić: and it's very important to to always bring this reflexivity inside. So they always have to define research as position, ethical and legal aspects. And we'll show you the the our 2 examples where we can see how important the those things are. And then there is the third third part

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Jana Vukić: erez agmoni, when our output we can discuss it with the students and select purposes and audiences for our research, and where to show the results. 250

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Jana Vukić: First example is one that jujits a day that was. researching, it's not my example. So if I will. excuse myself. if I make any mistakes, it's pornography of activities of the 40 days for life initiative. It's a a initiative for it's a herb. It's because she was Croatia for life. And it's an a part of 14 days for life, international initiative.

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It is a a part of anti-gender movement, and it the the rest is reproductive rights.

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Jana Vukić: so you can see. That's just a says here that they present themselves as ecomenic prayer, pro-life, initiative for life, and indirectly, and it

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Jana Vukić: an initiative to stop abortion which was completely legal during the Socialist period in Croatia, since 2,014 prayer campaigns are held outside health centers and hospitals very aggressively in more than 30 cities 2 times per year, 40 days in a row, educating for stopping abortion but they were conducted peacefully.

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Jana Vukić: it is very religious in substance. So this is the this is the part that where jujits explains it now it ethnography of activities. So 14 days for life initiative here. they use the the colleague, of course, and the jujits are use non participant over the observation methods.

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Jana Vukić: because

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Jana Vukić: it was a very problematic to use any kind of visual recording. So they used visual data from websites of of initiatives. And they observed, and and then

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Jana Vukić: held their field research notes, etc., to to discuss what was happening So we can see in this part the ethical part of a problem with the visual sociology, or the ethical issue, which is very

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Jana Vukić: very important in some kinds of research. So the connection with theory that judges, I emphasize, this is how this the anti abortion activism act as of of this 40 days for life acts as a part of anti-gender movement. And how are the activities of the initiative implemented? So it was very interesting for students to to be involved in this research.

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And the the other part is how the anti-abortion clinic activism

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Jana Vukić: in a public space

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Jana Vukić: re publicized the religion and the secularization of a public space. So it's the the 2 parts of a theory which were researched here, but I must say they they wasn't able to to take any pictures. So it's it's interesting. And the second example is something that I deal with. it's a visual research of ur urban transformation and identity markers in city

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Jana Vukić: So we we research invisible sets of relationships which tend to be translated itself to physical spaces. Yet the says so. It's very interesting to to see this square in the

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Jana Vukić: and the the spatial structures as forms of social structures, but relating to power relations. We have here, one, a square which you can see on the right side. There is a picture of empty square that was planned to be a square

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Jana Vukić: and then on During the time there was this monument the round one that you can see from above on the left side pictures, and you can see it's better on the right side that was made with our famous by our famous sculpture, even Mestroy.

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Jana Vukić: And the the thing with this square is that it brought up many protests brought up many issues because it was It has layers of memory.

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Jana Vukić: So it's very interesting to just to to understand and to to see through visual material all those atmospheres, different layers at the same place and activation of different groups. Regarding their rights to use it, or to to be part of a memory

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Jana Vukić: The problem was, the first problem was that this square is called, which means something like I I don't know the direct, the correct translation, but it's square dedicated to victims of fascism.

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Jana Vukić: And because there was a center where the people were sent to concentration camps. So it has very, very strong memory, negative memory for many people, many citizens of Zagreb. It it was during the World War 2.

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Jana Vukić: But at the beginning of a ninetys our Government wanted to change the name from

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Jana Vukić: this name, very powerful, powerful, and important name to the name of something like a giants of creation history, which is completely different, meaning from the the right one.

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Jana Vukić: And there were protests. But also, before we have to go to the picture on the right side, the second one during the World War 2, and the one at one part of our unfortunate history in Croatia. we had

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Jana Vukić: fascist government which wanted to make a mosque

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Jana Vukić: of this monument. So we have this picture where you can see the beginning of of building the mosque which was demolished 2 years later.

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Jana Vukić: and the the the remaining monuments in center. The round one was left here. So it's known in part of history. It has its name Jamia, which means mosque.

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Jana Vukić: but it never. People do not remember this time, and they do not remember this visual

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Jana Vukić: of this place. And after some years there was some other problem with this and it it. It's a the great difference between 2 pictures that the main pictures that you can see on this slide. The left one has a vegetation, and smaller places where people can go in a shade and

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Jana Vukić: it a talk. And there was skaters and subcultures and people meeting and relaxing. And on the right side there is a something that our mayor made.

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Jana Vukić: it's completely stripped of this public space script of anything, any activity, any kind of place to to to, just to to sit on their dogs? No, no, it's allowed any. Any movement was not allowed. So there were all also protest. And this magnolia 3, which you can see on the latest in bottom picture

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Jana Vukić: picture became a symbol of this protest. So in one place, one square we can see different layers and looking on the visual material, we can see many things and teach our students about it. The second one, and this will be a short one. I think all of you heard about old city of Doberman in Croatia. It's a unesco site, pearl of Adriatic, as it says. it is. It's known

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Jana Vukić: and you you can see the old pictures of. And then in a digital world you can see game of thrones or Star wars Douglom, Nick, and there are tourists coming and thinking that the is a an amusement park

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Jana Vukić: based on this visual presentation of There are many tourists coming and many tourists asking when this abusement mark mark is closing and people are still living in this city. So it's it's it's incredibly interesting.

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Jana Vukić: So to to go back to the teaching. I we and I agreed about teachers. Competence is necessary for giving project assignments related to urban spaces, and we, we, we just wanted to emphasize the teachers. have to have a methodological knowledge

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Jana Vukić: knowledge of of ethical issues which are very complicated and also knowledge on series and concepts outside, of course, of field of urban sociology. But trying to to connect them to this city center. And this is a part and the last part of our presentation, where we can very show our faculty of humanities and social sciences

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Jana Vukić: in, and the exhibition of students works made by interdisciplinary teams of architects and sociologists

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Jana Vukić: where we use different research methods. And the project is up. Sorry the the project is

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Jana Vukić: but participatory and subject centered a neighborhood for me, city for me. So we were trying to to research with our students some problems that the local community is dealing with, and to give them some kind of vision and some kind of a visual material

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Jana Vukić: to see how could it be improved it? It was also interesting on the ethical side, so ethical issues are also important in small scale research. But it was very successful, and the local community was very happy. So we you can see that we were showing

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Jana Vukić: the results in a library, local library, and also using during the presentation of our work. There were students filming and making Also during the presentation of the results, also using visual sociology or visual tools for The next generation to see how this learning can be implemented.

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Jana Vukić: So we have active citizens, active and responsible students after this course, and happy and empowered local community. And that's what we wanted to tell you, and to finish with something very nice. What a visual sociology can do in education. So I thank you very much for your attention.

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Thank you.

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So we we have a very intimate session, Jana, you may not have heard about it. You may notice it. We're like kind of 4 people in the room, plus 5, and it's my fiftieth birthday

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Jana Vukić: at one, and it's it's it's 10'clock in the morning. No, so I I would first of all, just we have time we are in no hurry one. Presentation didn't happen at the beginning, so we only have 2 presentations. Jana, did you manage to hear on this presentation?

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Jana Vukić: No, I. So so because I was, I had some technical problems with connection.

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because it was George who was supposed to be. Yeah, no, I was. I was making an effort in in trying to connect the 2 presentations, and I think I have a few points that unite the 2 papers, even though they straddle in W. Apparently obviously different directions.

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But there's something about place making, which is a term that none of you use which is central to both, which is the yeah with old fashioned term. But it's really the transformation of space into place. And and that's the attribution of a narrative, basically. So that that's something that you both have in common and the heterotopic nature of of urban spaces, which is something that and

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bits directly you don't. But at the same time you're kind of heading. There is also connected to place making. So among this kind of presence of many possible multiple narratives. Some narratives are crafted and other marginalized. I think your examples about fascist history is a very evident one, right?

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But I was curious, by the way, how? How on earth a mosque became part of the fascist imaginary. That's it. That's another question. It's yeah. I know what we can get back to that. but that that's part of the logic of fascism. that's good to remember. It's one of the ways to which we can defend ourselves from fascism is pointing out the the paradoxical nature

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they're off, and tourism is a third. I mentioned that you both also addressed. But

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let me try to connect these 3 bits together by asking about about the role of photography, because, in a way, Anne was talking about awful photographs that still function right in the creation of a narrative, despite being awful. And you speak about photographs that cannot even be made.

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that nevertheless, in a way, you know, you started using others. So what is the role of photography, especially photography? These are the visual observations in the, in the, in the act of place making and the construction of narratives that transform a space into a place.

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It's it's a very speculative question, but I thought I just threw it out there for us to discuss, and whoever from the audience wants to address a question, I think you should come here. So you're in the camera.

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Yeah, no. I mean, they're all the photography in the act of place making. I mean, these are 2 extreme cases, because Ann was talking about the impossibility, I mean, of the presence in or bad photographs of cemeteries, right that nevertheless seem to leave a trace, you know, and and become functional to the construction of a narrative, a and yana, the example of yeah photographs that can't even be made of of

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anti-abortionist movement, and so on and so forth. Can you both speculate a bit around that topic, and we have

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Wendell that popped up also. with some delay. So now, yeah, I know that's it. So now we have that difficulty. Because, Wendell, you're just some 1 h late. I don't know if it's by.

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Wendell Marcel: Are you listening

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Wendell Marcel: now? We can hear you

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all right. So I I think. Shall we just put my question in the freezer? For a few minutes, Jana, and an and then we we let.

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Is it Wendell or Marcel, what is your first name?

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Wendell Marcel: Wendo

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Wendell? Yeah, so would you. Would you mind, then? given your presentation, you can share your screen, and you got 15 min, and then we yes.

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I suppose you didn't manage to see the end of Jana's presentation either, or did you.

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Wendell Marcel: if I have presentations?

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No. Did you manage to listen to Jana's presentation a little bit? No, no, not at all all right. But if you share your screen you should be able to.

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Yeah, absolutely was just waiting to see whether something happened. It seems to be happening.

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Wendell Marcel: Do you see it?

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Wendell Marcel: Yeah, perfect. My presentation great.

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Wendell Marcel: Can I start?

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Wendell Marcel: Absolutely okay.

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Wendell Marcel: good good morning for you. Good evening for me here in Brazil. I'm talking from Brazil.

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Wendell Marcel: Just open my presentation better.

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Wendell Marcel: Yes.

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Wendell Marcel: it's better now. No.

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because.

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Wendell Marcel: okay.

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So first, I want to

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Wendell Marcel: to congratulate the the opinion organizes. Professor Luki and Professor Paolo. I also salute the their colleagues who are present in this sessions. It's a joy to be

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Wendell Marcel: with you today to discuss image, city, and imaginary. First, I ask, apologize because my English is not very well, but I we can try

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Wendell Marcel: here with you. The title of this paper is the symbolic temporal dimensions of the city in contemporary South American cinema. my speech. we dear, we've did. Discussions developed in my doctoral. Pg. Jesus, all in sociology at the University of San Paulo, Brazil.

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Wendell Marcel: Here I seek to carry out Socioe Socio andropolitical research of a philosophy call scope to discuss image Ct and affections in the x. 2, 3 of the fumic imaginary.

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Wendell Marcel: For this I will you to develop the analysis of 2 films from South America to amount the empirical body of the research. The Colombian La Tierra Ela, sombre in Portuguese

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Wendell Marcel: English land, and she

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Wendell Marcel: and the Venezuelan. They yeah, they say, yeah.

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Wendell Marcel: In Portuguese they launched Jobisavo in English, from far, I look you.

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Wendell Marcel: this is the first movie I will to

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Wendell Marcel: to talking about a land and shade Sergey Ken, you cutting family lives in Huro, Columbia.

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Wendell Marcel: One day the father returns after being away from that place for years with his son on his death bed. Feelings return to the center of a family and wings.

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Wendell Marcel: The absence of a family member best. Hertz and unstable affections are symbolically assessed by the ashes of the plantation. The space of the house in the temporal dimensions created around the relationships between people and a space. This is the second movie. they say, yeah.

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Wendell Marcel: in turn, in from far. I look you. in modern. And in this work Caracas to people engage in a violent relationships, go for net by interest. This unlikely contact between 2 people from different worlds.

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Wendell Marcel: The classes, professions, and places of residents represent how in the city's social relations happen on a level of proximity, distance

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Wendell Marcel: in from far, I look you, desire you lack you for fractions and game of power and necessity. Our folks at this took to role level of socially, malad you that emotions. I will be showed

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Wendell Marcel: some image

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Wendell Marcel: just

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Wendell Marcel: here

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Wendell Marcel: about your land and change. is a fum that deals with issues. So as memory, who means, and declining a Fl affections in the contest of the hero landscape.

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Wendell Marcel: Here the memory of the city is symbolicized by the return of a person who has not returned it home for a long time.

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Wendell Marcel: In this sense this is a specific sense, for example, the child eat alone in the kitchen. Why, you, the grandfather closes the windows and the in the darkness.

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Wendell Marcel: Therefore the lack of care is a remains of this absence. The ashes that fall from the sky represents the change in the effective landscape of each person

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Wendell Marcel: leaving and working in the outside, the levy and the state of mental and labor.

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Wendell Marcel: In this work absence is more than lack of special presence. You know, it's the absence of affections. It's the absence of work. It's the absence of the emotional bonds that constitutes a family. It's the absence of the father, the son, the husband.

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the Sony law, and the great mother, that the child never got to know

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Wendell Marcel: the spaces of the house are quietly space for a symbolic interpretation. The bedroom and the kitchen are a moreternal recipients of the state of the each individual who leaves there

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Wendell Marcel: the time. In this space a company is the time of the life of the sum.

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Wendell Marcel: the father, the husband who is fading away away little by little.

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Wendell Marcel: as a sign of effective states. It's all who in

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Wendell Marcel: like this last sin.

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Wendell Marcel: do you sin?

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Wendell Marcel: Profile, I look you, is a powerful work that represents social survival in a city governance by moral, ethical, and economic dilemma. The Cg. Of of Caracas is a bute here, from the perspective of those who leave on the margins transcending, and a much-funneli maladjusted spaces.

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Wendell Marcel: A man looks for an outlet for his sexual desires, and the boys of the city asking them to andress in the front of him, but he doesn't talk to them.

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He's a lawyer

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Wendell Marcel: of the alien. May your body once again the relations of desire, and we are on the scene

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Wendell Marcel: in from far, look you, affections are samples of the emotional state of your social relationships. They are unstable, they are violence.

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Wendell Marcel: sometimes dark, and they are usually resolved on the basis of physical or bicycological violence. Since time is a components of the human phenomenon is the elements that make Karaka

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Wendell Marcel: a space in who is, as social relationships are. contaminated by negative feelings. Since he, everyone on this scene is hardly shows happiness. They also can contaminate the spaces where they work.

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Wendell Marcel: they transform this spaces into who wins. Therefore, reflections of the emotional states of the individuals who leave work live in the space

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Wendell Marcel: I you to show the last scene

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Wendell Marcel: because they represent this. These discussions.

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Wendell Marcel: We don't have the sound just for you to know.

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Okay.

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Wendell Marcel: the doctors. You make a phenomenal in that fine fum is the presence of the poetic is office space in of American cinema which has producer relationships in cities.

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Wendell Marcel: the d of the allegorical sickness and symbol of symbols of

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Wendell Marcel: the 3 outers who base our Fumiki phenomena. Knowledge are Gaston Bashola Tuber. To her in she is delivered.

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Wendell Marcel: The 3 provides the key concepts for the interpretations of the symbolic dimensions in the film is, it's possible to in that 5 point spaces modeled by allegorical signals and symbols of intimus, and the crystals of time. In the affectionate signals, wings, and rem memories.

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Wendell Marcel: the imaginary county boots contrib boots to the constructions of the cinematography, naive in so far as it's established a step in the philosophical patterns and models of those in the world. The feminic work is a social and symbolic look at the concerns of the society, customs, and imaginations

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Wendell Marcel: to finalize and land and shade. The notion of so American seeds is represented from the memory of people who left to take control side, and who

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Wendell Marcel: at some point return to to that place. Sitcoms remove it as a return to a space in wins, is engages in this, this stability, that affections in broken relationships, that no must be a work. It

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Wendell Marcel: in turn from Pharaoh to you the CD. Is imperative to by its desires, bodies, violence into lambs. In the emotional landscape of individuals the correctors carry out the d lamps and all the challenges of the humans phenomenon. They are his reserve of historical and social instruments and producers of means. In everyday life.

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Wendell Marcel: Our proposal is to indicate a philosophy called social anthropological approach to contemporary urban fumes that have dream it's in maintenance and leave it to for American seats. This fumes collaborated to creating an

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Wendell Marcel: a newborn and symbolic imaginary of the notion of this source of American city, based on the constructions of future landscapes that he review heavier, fragmented social relationships, the void of affections built by by memory and the process of zapiering

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Wendell Marcel: here the the reference, some her for us, and thank you for your attention.

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Okay, thank you. Wendy. So yeah, I think in a way, we can go back to the the question that I raised before. I don't know when they if you heard it, you can switch off your presentation. So we see all the presenters on the screen.

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there we go? Yeah.

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So which which was again about the role in that case of photography. But when it came to an and I was asking about

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bad photographs and and failed photographs and their role in in place making. But in a way we can extend the question also to cinema is a bit of the same play here. You know of how images actually contribute to generate narratives about place

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that articulate something different or something that strengthens our direct perception of of a city environment. Right? So how again, our experience of space

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through images is turning space into a place. But in the case of an I really was interested in the awful pictures in the case of Yana, in the missing pictures. Then we can go back to Wendell.

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Would you mind speculating on that? And then I would ask anyone who has a question. We we can just use this podium, so they see us in the in our face as well as we speak.

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and would you mind?

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Anne-Marie Bresee: So

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Anne-Marie Bresee: I always laugh, because in this presentation and in the paper that I wrote

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Anne-Marie Bresee:  I make, I sort of jokingly and and suddenly make fun of my friends, who wanted to keep all their awful photos. But then I became very aware of those awful photos became part of my presentation, and they're part of our day. And I think that we.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: you know, sort of look at arts where we look, you know, here there's photographic rules and grammar that we judge. This is good art. This is bad art. And you know it's very subjective. And what I'm really discovering, because I've just finished doing

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Anne-Marie Bresee: another study involving participants in photography is not

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Anne-Marie Bresee: for them. It's not really about whether it's a good photograph. It's also about all the memories and the layers of their experience that is intentionally and unintentionally exposed in their images. And so for them those images become almost like a memorial

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Anne-Marie Bresee: of the day a momento of the day. And so they're very significant, even though they're not technically very good. They serve another purpose as the means of remembrance. Not sure if that answers what you were looking for.

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Yeah, it does. I think you know, memory is the answer to that. I mean, that's that's a key, and that goes beyond the quality, technical quality, or the compositional quality of the of the image. In that case.

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But, Iana, would you take it from there.

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Jana Vukić: Well, I I'll try, because I I only catch the the last part of and Marie's presentation, and I'm very sorry that I didn't see it, though it it it sounded very interesting, but I just couldn't make it through the technical part well, in in my presentation and there were different aspects of place making. I didn't use the the the

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or place making, but I was talking about atmospheres emerging places and layers and differences that they that can be

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Jana Vukić: also for for the documented. So it's it's interesting to to see there are so many pictures about this place. of the victims of fascism. I I I just.

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Jana Vukić: It's interesting that I choose the better looking ones that I I didn't want to, because the topic is so awful, and it was I I'm smiling, but but I'm smiling to you. Not about the topic. The topic was very sad, and it used to like 15 years. It was

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Jana Vukić: on, on screen, on and on every newspaper from time to time in. So it was very even the around the world, because we became again a fascist country because of it

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Jana Vukić: erez agmoni. So the the the pictures that were shown about this Square. We're talking about Croatia because we have this unfortunate part, which was connected 150

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Jana Vukić: to the fascism. But also we were all all the time and the fascist, the country or people. So we have this struggle, political struggle inside. And it's all shown here. And this is interesting. Because now I'm thinking, why I

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Jana Vukić: choose those lovely pictures and not the ugly ones. I didn't show you the protesters I didn't show you the the the awful things of people being taken from there to concentration camps and memories of people that did. Maybe it's it's something that that is so for me, so emotional.

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Jana Vukić: that I wanted to to to put it in a nice wrapping. Maybe this is only reflecting about just the the my reflection, but it could be also shown in a completely different way.

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Jana Vukić: in a completely the opposite way. And then you you should really see. So I think that ugly picture is very important picture. I agree with you, and this is the thought they just came to me. And maybe that's my next article that will be about good and bad pictures or a pictures showing bad things.

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Jana Vukić: I'm sorry. No, I I I thought that you wanted to to say something, and and in the in the the second, the example that jujits I was trying to understand what was happening with 40 days for life initiative.

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Jana Vukić: It was very important because people were standing on public space and they were showing themselves. But they she was not allowed to take pictures.

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Jana Vukić: and also she wouldn't like to to to get in trouble. And it's interesting. But at the same time they were posting those pictures, and they're in newspapers posting. And so so it was visual. But it's it was forbidden for someone to who wanted to research it. It it it's completely

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Jana Vukić: stupid situation you you show it. But you don't want to to to be documented but I must emphasize that the the researchers didn't want to to show faces. They wanted just to document from the

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Jana Vukić: just the scene scenery where where it was kept, but it wasn't allowed. They asked the permission, but they never gave them the the permission to take them, and on the same time always posting pictures, and you can see them, and you can analyze them. So the analysis was very fruitful at the end, and they had to to make notes. And so it's it's interesting. I don't know how to to answer the the the

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Jana Vukić: question, because it there are so many aspects. But this is just the things that I was thinking while listening to this discussion about the bad and the good photography, or and there's a there's a big relativity as to what is a good image. I mean, that's it's a a, a, a, a relative question. But at the same time

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I mean a a a good research photograph needs not be a good photograph, for you know, for public press, or for art, and so on. So forth. The criteria to which something becomes useful as data. Vis-a-vis knots are are

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something that is interesting to look at, and also the absence of images or photographs in this case is is important, because that that also signals, a particular kind of surveillance, a particular kind of

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Jana Vukić: politics, some kind of power, if I may say, this anti-apportion, this, this was an issue of power.

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Jana Vukić: No, you you are not allowed to take pictures, but what we are standing on public space. We can use it. We are here. We have the right, but you don't have the right. So it it was important in this, so we can discuss it much further. But on the first thing that said the power thing. I'm also curious as to

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Anne-Marie Bresee: okay. So in both of my studies, you know, I took a moment. And when here's the fundamentals of photography, here's the grammar that we're looking for, and you know, if you do certain things, the pictures will look slightly better. And

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Anne-Marie Bresee: so, my group of friends, they didn't really care. They were pretty confident in their their skills. And the second group, we spent a lot of time going. You know what we we just want you to document what you're working experiences.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: And but in the beginning they were very nervous about it. And then they found then they were very mindful of what they were taking, and I was stunned at how, in the moment they were about. This is what I felt. This is what I wanted to achieve. And so they were really sort of enjoying creating that that visual documentation. I'm curious when you have the students involved.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: How did their level of comfort, of using. You know, pictures as a methodology. How comfortable were they, or did you have to sort of nurture them and scaffold that along

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Jana Vukić: it? It it's we have to to, of course, to guide them and to encourage them all the time. at first we we use the first part of semester to just to to show them the grammar and the right way of taking pictures, and then just send them around to to try

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Jana Vukić: to see the problems. Because if you talk to the students about ethical problems or some kind of, they can say, Okay, there is an ethical problem, but they do not understand it. But when you send them and tell them, okay, just do the photo.

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Jana Vukić: And then they come back. And so we discussed. So we we we we went to

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Jana Vukić: just all the way here and there, and at the end they all decided to to make a film.

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Jana Vukić: It was not part of career curriculum and the plan. But they decided to make a film, a short film about the process of learning and doing things. So it's it's very interesting. And one of them was a semi pro in a. So she was teaching all the the rest

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Jana Vukić: about the making a film, because we were all only dealing with photography and other kinds of visual presentations and urban in a architectural meeting. And so but it was interesting, because at the end they were making the film. So there is a improvement improvement. And they were aware of ethical problems and much more in it.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and they are still biting. So we thought of one, of course, or do you? Are you going to teach it again?

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Jana Vukić: We we'll start. Next year we'll we'll just This was the first year that we we were able to to make this course, and next time we'll we'll just we'll just let some topic to come inside. So it would be interesting. The point is that we we have to to choose something that is a familiar to the students

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Jana Vukić: that that was the point of city context, everyday life. So we will maybe use them to to choose the theme.

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I I wanted to bring in Wendell also. Then I I pass on the word. I think there was a question from the audience. But Wendell how to. By the way. Thanks for bringing jibet to RAM back into the question. It's it's it's a name that never pops up these days at all. I I don't know if any of you has read him like an old French anthropologist from your fantastic! I don't know if it's very inspiring back then.

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But to what extent are you interested with your work also? In the I should the actual experience of

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places, cities, in this case through cinema, I mean, do you look at that connection as well? I mean about the creation of a kind of an imaginary 2 films that then actually also transforms itself into a concrete act of place, making, you know, like cities crafting themselves according to the image produced in a

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in in cinema, I mean, think of Berlin and the popularity from in vendors, movies, right? Or a particular kind of photograph. And then, you see, reproduced on Instagram over and over. And then, of course, that's where you're going to put the cafe exactly in the corner where you can see that vision of the angels, and so on and so forth, right?

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So that that's a concrete translation where you know marketing response tourism especially. All of you touch upon tourism again, which is interesting. Wendell, do you have any reflection on that.

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Wendell Marcel: about my my presentations. It's

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Wendell Marcel: a conclusions about my qualifications I made last month.

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Wendell Marcel: It's to discover how the

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the movies represents imaginance

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Wendell Marcel: a dream it the cities

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Wendell Marcel: from South America.

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Wendell Marcel: and how the the these these fumes represents whims affect since the memories

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Wendell Marcel: and the the moves.

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Wendell Marcel: It's a a hypothesis, you know.

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Wendell Marcel: to to development, and

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Wendell Marcel: I would to write my cheeses

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Wendell Marcel: Bayes. And in these these these notions of the the South American cinema come to our South America cinema.

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Okay? And what? Why did you choose? I mean, I was thinking, there is an obvious example from Brazil that has been looked upon exactly in those terms.

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Are you looking for it in the cinema? Or, yeah.

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Wendell Marcel: Brazil? Yes, I I I use movies from, you know.

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states

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Wendell Marcel: minijad eyes from Brazil, Columbia, Argentina, Venezuela. chile and Ecuador?

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All right. So it's quite from the look, though. Did you have a question. Yes, yeah. Please hop in. Come over here. So they see

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it's not solution.

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Yeah. Good morning. I'm I'm Lucas.

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I had first a question for for M.

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And then I a question for both an Andiana because of thing they said just a minute ago. The first question to for Anne is the amount. Pleasant is is that in Montreal.

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the Mount Pleasant?

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Anne-Marie Bresee: It's actually in Toronto.

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Oh, yeah, then, yeah, I've been to Toronto as well. I've been to unpleasant. Yeah, I remember that. Okay, I was wondering you worked with different types of participants, I mean, some with a photojournalistic background, some with art photography background. And then what would you call amateurs? I was wondering whether you performed a a sort of a detailed analysis of their output, and that you saw some trends in what exactly people put in the image. And

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so you see a sort of a trends in in these 3 groups, and do these amateurs more like act like art photographers, or more photo journalists, or documentary, or more, are the those images more metaphorical, more documentary, or whatever.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: So, first of all, it is a group of it was a sample of convenience. They were a group of friends of mine.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and we have been cameraing together for probably the last 20 years. So we were all very, very comfortable with what we were doing, and and in our different styles certainly.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: The 2 of us who had a journalistic background. We tended to do very documentary type images. and we were more comfortable having people in our backgrounds. Whether it was a funeral in place, or.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: you know, whatever

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Anne-Marie Bresee: the 2 people who sort of did photography as as the leisurely pursuit.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: They were not comfortable, having people in the images. They they really just sort of wanted to sort of take the, you know, the material and the immaterial and sort of this is how I feel about it.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: And the the finder people. They were, those 2. They they were sort of open for anything. They were very the one girl was

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Anne-Marie Bresee: She was studying photography in school, so she was playing around a lot with light. We like light. At the end of the tunnel we light above the the angels that became very traditional. whereas the other person was very artistic. I think you know

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Anne-Marie Bresee: it was interesting that we we came to the table with with different skill sets, but I think we all sort of it was almost as much of a social loving as it was, you know. Let let's document what went on here, and it really sort of came across as to what we were feeling like. It isn't in this presentation, but we spent a lot of time talking about epitaphs.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and in the end we were trying to create our own appetops. But that was because one person was very focused on what was written on the monuments, and and, you know, had a lot of a lot of focus on that.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: And and you talked about awful photographs where they're awful in in a technical sense, like blurred, and their explanation because they were boring the content.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: I think we've all sort of relished their off on us now, and because we all kept them

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and I think in this day and age with our phones, photography is so accessible that we just.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: you know. Oh, yeah, I'll you know. Send that to me, and I'll just add it on. And yet, when people said, You know, this reminds me of when I went to Italy. I'm like, let me see, we couldn't actually find the images. There were so many images that even though we were archiving our own pictures. There was no real pattern to it, and it was really difficult to to pull those up

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right. And I've got a question for yeah. Both Anne and, Jana, I think you both refer to something like the right way to make pictures.

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Now, if you intend to make sort of a participatory project, then I think one of the principles is not to educate the participants, because then you kill the data value really, and you kill their vision. So could you expand on that, please.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: So I know. So with this group, we didn't talk a lot about fundamentals of photography because I sort of knew what they were doing. But I'm I'm in the process of doing another one with 6 actually, contract faculty members

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Anne-Marie Bresee: documenting what it is that they experience in the academic workplace. And so it has a photo voice, sort of.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: you know. flavor to it.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: What was interesting is that in the initial discussion we probably spent about 20 min going. Here are the fundamentals of photography.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: And you know, here's some lighting. Here's the rule of thirds. And where to part your subject. Here's a couple things about ethics and get make sure you get. You know, people to sign

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Anne-Marie Bresee: waivers. But then

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Anne-Marie Bresee: I thought, you know what I didn't really, they said, What do you want us to take pictures of? And I said, I want you to take pictures of your day.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and what it is that you experience and what it's like for you to go to work every day. And that was it. It was so hard not to tell them. Well, this is what I wanted, you know. It was sort of like, if you were going to do an interview with them you wouldn't sort of direct them. You needed. That very open ended, and it was much more difficult with the photographs to to make it open-ended and see what they saw.

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Yeah. But yeah. But even even teaching the rule of thirds is sort of killing the information that's in the form, because if it decides to put a a person at the edge or in the center, or whatever I mean. The form is also a source of information in photography.

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and then you kill it. If you say, Well, you have to compose like this, and you have to, you know, photograph a group like that. And I I think if you have, if you know some of the rules. You know how to break them.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: And when I went through some of the basics, I said, You know what?

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Anne-Marie Bresee: Here's the role of thirds. and

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Anne-Marie Bresee: you can do that, or what you can do is take the picture. How you would normally would do it, and then take a step back and say, Hey, I remember this rule of thirds, or Hey, I do this, and I think one of the things from the images I got I'm actually really quite pleased with. I think it was because they weren't just doing that kodak, commercial and aim and shoot.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: which you know, was really big. About 40 years ago they were actually sort of thinking about what it is we wanted them to document, and I think, no matter what I wanted, I really wanted them to think about what it was that they were doing, and to tell me what it is that they were trying the story that they were trying to tell me.

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Jana Vukić: Yes, thank you. Maybe Jana would like to react on this. I I think that. And Marie just said mostly the the the main things that I was thinking, but this is a course in a faculty course. We had to teach them to teach students about something. So we just wanted them to collect, and they did it on their own

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Jana Vukić: pre-existing visual material. And then we compared it to just to to show them what's what their reason. You know that what they can use or they can. And then when they went to the research part, then they were left alone, and they only had to be ethical.

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Jana Vukić: They had to do things the right way not to to show faces if people would do, wouldn't agree, and so on. So they were completely free, and it was great, because at the end, as I told you, they decided to make a film. They were filming themselves. just as for for fun, and then in the end.

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Jana Vukić: and they decided, Okay, now we'll take some time and make the real proper film. And they were interviewing each other, and it's interesting just to to to give us the description of the process

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Jana Vukić: which they went through. So it's interesting. They were free, but they were informed, informed, just informed about the things not the directed or mentored in the way that they should do this way or that way.

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Jana Vukić: and they are completely amateurs. Just the one girl was a half a professional, and that that girl just brought to think of filming the story, filming the story about the research. So it was very nice they they were free.

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Jana Vukić: And I think it's the best way.

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Thank you very much. But again, please.

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you know, I may just add a little, because I think it's also really an important question and a classic, that when we photograph.

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I mean we, we, we ask people to photograph. We not only explore that understanding of a particular topic, but they're on their own visual culture. That's the way which I would phrase it at the narrow visual cause. I mean, I I work in India mainly in India. It's really like frontal and central. That's a good portrait. Right rule of thirds is like something imported, and it kind of doesn't work it. Yesterday was a beautiful reflection by

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the guy from the Philippines talking about the ethical side of that saying that. What? Why am I supposed to do with blurring faces and stuff? When people beg to be in a picture. I have the same in India, you know. There's I mean, when your interlocutors actually want to be portraits. I put my phone number there, right. They they? And these are like it's all the relativity of what and that that chaos is actually quite precious.

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The

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Hi. My name's Cly. I'm Roberts. I'm from Anu Australian National University

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from in Canberra.

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I've got lots of things to say, but I wanted to ask, because we're thinking about doing a project a bit like what you're talking about, Jana? you said that you connected with people in a neighborhood, and that they were happy like the how. How did you do that?

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Jana Vukić: Yeah. Well, it was a combination with the architects So we went. it was very nice to to to get in touch with local community and local organizations. And we asked the problems that they have and made an analysis of the the the space spatial analysis analysis of the problems of the quality of life and things like that.

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Jana Vukić: And then we were photographing and making our own observation of the the the area and also we made an analysis of spatial data. And then in the end they were interviews with the community. They were just it's a neighborhood in Zagreb, and they were through Facebook and the other

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Jana Vukić: channels of communication. They were asked if they're interested to show us or to send us some pictures, or to to do the interviews, and that's why students had the opportunity to walk along with the participants and to see through through their all nice, but also some of them wanted to, just to to tell the story.

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Jana Vukić: and then the students were filming, etc., etc. But it was always in team, and there was always an architect

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Jana Vukić: who would make a sketch or make You didn't see it. It's very complicated. We have many posters of this those are urbanistic solutions. It's it's a complicated thing to do for sociologists. But we made the other part. And together we connected it, and then, visually presented to the community.

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Jana Vukić: So it was like a schematically part part, which was explaining, and the part which was showing some visions which came from the answers of the local people. Local interviews. So it was combination of all this, and it was a very

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Jana Vukić: It's very time consuming, very difficult to do.

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Jana Vukić: but it was a completely An absolute success! And the the exhibition is now going around. First it was shown at the faculty, then in this local neighborhood, and then they wanted to to show it somewhere else. So they're deciding where to go with this material. So it's interesting. It has its life of of its own.

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Yeah. And so just so, I understand better that the kind of problems with a kind of design problems like, you know, these stays are too steep. Were they like? Well, we have problems with homelessness what they sort of social problems, or where they very specifically architectural problems problems with quality of life in this neighborhood, with, mainly because there are no public space now green

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Jana Vukić: infrastructure and the the they have a heavy traffic problems. And they the the whole neighborhood is cut in pieces. So it was interesting how to to connect them so because they they cannot go on foot.

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Jana Vukić: And there is a elementary school and it it's too dangerous for them. So there! There were specific topics in this neighborhood, but we had also other themes. So there were 3 main team teams in this in this course. So there are different types. But this one the local because of the small scale. it was interesting, and people were engaged in it.

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Jana Vukić: but there was no homelessness and not this part of across your different projects, like the one about the square.

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you know. It's about huge historical, you know. Sociological questions, you know. Fascism, Islam, whatever.

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And then this is something much more.

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tiny in a good way, you know, about a particular space movement in that space. But did it also bring up those?

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Did it help you to test this logically about inequality or disadvantage, or, of course, of course, because the whole neighborhood was very heavily. touched with this problems of traffic of pollution of so so there is an is spatial inequality and also social inequality, and there is gentrification the negative side of gentrification

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Jana Vukić: all around this neighborhood. So it it. It is the same. But it's so it it. It has a a complicated context to just to to tell it in a minutes, so I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough. But of course we are dealing with the same things.

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Jana Vukić: But the different concepts pop up as the main concepts. But we are dealing all the time with everything the same things

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Jana Vukić: in the relationships in space. So it's

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yeah, that's great. I just want to say also something about bad photos, I mean, I don't know. I think there's lots of generational issues with that. I just see

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I've been really fascinated, as my children become teenagers. The way in which photography, you know, blend this is absolutely central to communication and community.

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What they do on Snapchat. I don't know whether it's just an Australian thing, or it happens everywhere, but they constantly send each other terrible photos of their faces, and I just it fascinates me, because when I was young.

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like we will done anything to avoid a bad photo like, you know, you go to the photo, and you, you know you get the print out from the chemist, or whatever, and it was mortifying. If there was a horrible photo of your face, you destroy it, or you know, and that horrible thing about them being put in albums. And you know, would your mother put that one in an album? And would it be there for the rest of your life, kind of thing.

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And now I think there's this real because of the proliferation of photographs

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and this constant attachment to cameras that there's a real pleasure, and they use all that they use a lot of apps to distort their faces, and my sons showed me one the other day of oh, this is me as a serial killer, a particular serial killer

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that! And he they used that face and morphed it with their own faces, he and his friends. So they looked like a serial killer, like they. They looked like they'd morphed their face into his face. And I'm like, why is that interesting? I thought it was hilarious, you know. So there's this sort of

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how can I be as disgusting and terrible as possible?

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And it's a little more of it so strangely when I meet the actual children, because I've seen so many hideous photos of them. But then I see their actual face. And my go. Actually, you're not a total wants stuff. But I think there's a real anti photography culture that is also very celebratory of photography. I don't know what that I just would. I'd be really interested to see how that comes out in.

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Jana Vukić: I I can tell you. I have a all a bit older, son. It's it's it's it's it's, you know. It ends, you know, in a year there will be no such pictures. I think it's a way of negotiating adolescents. I mean, I work on a little bit of computer. And I think there's that

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it sort of helps people deal with the shame of transformation. They sort of try and take control through transformation.

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but I think the idea that a photograph in any way represents anything true has gone for that generation. I just think they don't feel like that. They do it on Insta and Snapchat. It dies, but it doesn't really die because you can keep it, but also

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and they also, I mean, it's so used. Images are used for violence

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and friendship. It's like the videoing of any sort of violence in the schoolyard.

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The, you know, malicious use of sexual images, I mean, there's, you know, malicious and celebratory, you know, it's always both. But there's this.

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I just think we really have to think about generation when we're thinking about photographs, because it's so well, I just find it an extraordinarily exotic culture.

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And that's only a sort of 40 year age gam, you know.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: So, anyway, no, thank you for the papers. A really enjoyed decision. I think it was really interesting when you said, you know the image is true, because I'm not sure any image was ever really true, because when I first learned photography decades ago.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: we would manipulate the image in the dark room.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and we would add light. We would take people. Oh, we would. contrast we were, you know, we would layer images together, because none of us could take fireworks. So you know, we put

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Anne-Marie Bresee: 6 of them together, and suddenly we look like we were stars. And then I remember when we built our house and the first

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Anne-Marie Bresee: the first digital camera came out with 2 megapixels.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: and we had a big discussion as to. I know we put this room in the basement, and I was going to build a dark room, but for the same price of building the dark room. I could just get technology and buy Photoshop. What do you think we should do?

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Anne-Marie Bresee: And so in the end we bought, we went with technology. And I think

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Anne-Marie Bresee: suddenly I was manipulating images. But when my kids hit their teams they had a whole high school course on how to manipulate images and Photoshop. And you know, creative suite and whole new levels of what we could do with it.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: And I think.

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Anne-Marie Bresee: you know, they're not afraid of this technology, and they're not afraid to manipulate it, and to play with it, and sort of make it their own, and give it their own meanings other than just what we see.

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you know, it wasn't that, and create a sort of weird atmosphere around the idea of using photography to document anything. I just it feels like this sort of strangely archaic.

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I mean, we've done it, too. It's not as if we haven't done it, but you know, to use photographs as if they bear any relation.

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I mean, it's sort of I don't know. There's a dizzying sort of feel about it, because you feel like well.

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we still look to, you know, I'm looking at your photos. And I'm thinking that's actually a place like you. You I could go there, and it would look something like the thing that you've just shown me. It was actually maybe not. I mean, you could. I mean, it's like the Dubrovnic thing, I think you know. Does Dubrovnik actually exist in people's minds?

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Or is it the game of thrones, you know? And I think that there's something really extraordinary. It's kind of about what the sociological, imaginary is, isn't it like, actually, are we connected to

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reality in any way? I think it really raises very interesting sort of ontological questions actually about.

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and epistemological questions about what we're doing when we use material. It's the same with quotations we still use quotes as if they're actually describing people's experience, you know. Well, are they not? Sure? Yeah, no. So I think it's it's even more intense than that for me, anyway. Sorry I've got to get to the end. Thank you very much. We're just running out of time. We have to

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finish in 1 min. So that was a brilliant wrapping up. Thanks, either for wrapping the session up.

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and we thank the 3 participants.

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For presenting 3 papers that really address so many different topics, but still having one clear commonality. I mean the connection between the production of images and the experience and production of space

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place. Rather. And with that I think we thank you all. And

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goodbye.

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Jana Vukić: Thank you.