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so welcome to Part 3 of our session. How organizations make people welcome again. I know it's late already that day. So thanks for joining us again

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or for the first time, time, maybe sometimes. We start with the acknowledgment of country. So on behalf of everyone gathered, I pay respect to the spirit of country. Here, now.

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where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and present cooling nation, Bonjiri Wu, as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the norm, aboriginal law, customs and custodianship, responsibilities for country and the people that country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us.

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I recognize the important contribution that first nations thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking.

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We thank all first nations delegates in the room today for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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and with having that said, Please connect, share, tag us on social media on that note. That's the research committee sociology of organizations. So please also take note of our social media and website and our journal of organizational sociology. If you are interested, we are very open, and with having that set I'm stop. I stop sharing my screen. And yeah, leave the floor to Katya.

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Yes, for very quick introduction. Thank you very much, Michael. Thank you very much for all coming and joining our last session on making people in organizations. we have the opportunity of discussing many things today. Postdocs, engineers, contest emotions and bad feelings. So this is for today's program.

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Kathia Serrano: Every presentator has and every presenter has 20 min. 15 min. Present 20 min, right 15 min. Presentation and maximum 15 min presentation, 5 min of discussion. And so it's going to be very quick, I'm afraid, so we can fit it all in this schedule, and I will try away from simply

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Kathia Serrano: saying something out loud during your presentation. When you reach to what's the end of your time. I'm very sorry about this. So Anna Anna Ken Kava is going to present her work on expectation work, postdocs and sense making of in academia. Thank you very much, Anna.

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Anna Khanukaeva: You're online. Thank you. great. It's Hanukkah. I like Hanukkah, but with ever at the end so

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Anna Khanukaeva: I hope you can see my slides. yes, great. Then I'm gonna start some Anna as Katie mentioned, and I'm doing my Phd research at the Psala University in Sweden. I'm presenting here the work in progress. It's a draft of my analytical empirical chapter for Ph. D. Thesis, where I'm trying to sort of make sense of sense making of expectations. Postdocs are doing.

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Anna Khanukaeva: let's start a little bit with the context.

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Anna Khanukaeva: So when paddocks start their position, they have already succeeded in competition with other researchers. At the same time they also remain in a precarious situation, and need to like prove their suitability for academic work in a quite a short time. So this dynamic can be related to the changes in the academic work which have been ongoing for the past 30 40 years, with the introduction of the new public management in the variety of settings, and including universities.

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Anna Khanukaeva: so measurement of success through various kpis, along with the scarcity of permanent positions, this becomes more widespread, and leads to the shift in the perception of the content of the expectations of the work.

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Anna Khanukaeva: So this means that academics are encouraged to focus on how they can establish a career and keep a job at the university. This phenomena have been studied through like the focus on the future career in Academia, and it only briefly acknowledged for the sort of intertwined of personal and professional tensions and mutual permission of work and life.

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Anna Khanukaeva: And from the literature it's clear that postdocs objective experiences are informing and the governance of the result of research culture, determining what kind of science happens, a single arguments that how they learn to cope with uncertainties, and how they set priorities between modes of coping is an intermediary in the articulations between funding policies and actual research practices

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Anna Khanukaeva: mit Ctl, and therefore research like researching how postdocs navigate individual contexts, including expectations, their personal and professional relationships, their plans. 150.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Personal agency. This adds to the understanding of the post-doctoral situation. So in line with this research, I focus on the ways early academic researchers understand and deal with uncertainty as well as expanding the focus to the tensions that arise as the result of new public management transformation, not only in relation to the formal employment, but also linked to the experiences and coping mechanisms which are specific to the context of these post-doctoral. lives

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Anna Khanukaeva: The framework that I'm presenting here is still a work in progress. So here I want to add, sort of a disclaimer that this concepts came after I've done the analysis. So the concepts of expectation work came as a way to understand the processes and patterns

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Anna Khanukaeva: which postdocs were engaged in is part of this sort of like sense making processes of their meaning making. But okay, let's introduce a few things, and here I understand the drawing on symboling interaction is in sense making as the process by which people give meaning to experience and take action on the basis of that meaning. Expectation work. In this context, I understand along the following lines, as expectations or expectancies, as Garfin call calls them.

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Anna Khanukaeva: are shared, anticipated ways of sense making, and how the order is done, and of like, how the order is done and organized, and thus.

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Anna Khanukaeva: if those expectations are like part of what people are expecting in order for the normal and the ordinary flow. To continue the study of sense making is the study of like figuring out this and going order and and how they and going order is possible. So how people participate in the sense making to keep doing this work that they are doing. The analysis focuses on how this and going order is created by postdocs. What are the narratives that they use and or like self explaining devices of the logic behind the work.

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Anna Khanukaeva: process. And this expectations, then, are part of this underlying order, and the work that required to sustain it. So by identifying and analyzing what kind of expectation work post looks engage in. I think it's possible to analyze the underlying sense making process of the academic work as well. So the same time, in line with Garfinkel approach, I want to reveal this sort of like the more details of the social order and the meaning behind the sense making process.

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Anna Khanukaeva: okay. what exactly am I doing? So I'm I've collected interviews with post talks in social sciences, in Sweden, in several different universities. this, postdocs are a different stage of their post-doctoral journey. And we talked in the interview about this sort of like, their understanding of their position, their win struggles, issues, different kinds of experiences that they had throughout the journey, including, like their different relationship and things like that.

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Anna Khanukaeva: So how postdocs deal with uncertainty based on the analysis. I argue that one of the ways they do. It is expectation, work, expectation. Work, then, can be understood as how postdocs lesson this uncertainty and navigate the academic employment options which are available for them. But why do they post docs engage in expectation work. It seems that they're like can be 2 like main reasons. Expectation. Work is needed because of academic freedom and because of conflicting formal demands

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Anna Khanukaeva: mit Ctl, and analysis shows that the expectation work is necessary because of the conditions of the academic work which entails both uncertainty in terms of employment and flexibility in terms of what are possible options. To secure this employment, 150

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Anna Khanukaeva: academic work gives an opportunity to develop and build employment in a variety of ways which means working with many things. For example, publishing books, articles to outreach research, teaching, supervision, making workshops.

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Anna Khanukaeva: and etc., etc., in order to lessen this uncertainty, postdocs try to engage with sort of like option, which academic freedom brings to the table mit Ctl. And and then expectation work refers to how they navigate what they can do, and what will be a reasonable amount to do in terms of like real constraints, such as time, but also in terms of securing future employment. One.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Now that we figured out why postdocs engage in expectation work, how can they do it?  So a prominent way for postdocs to deal with expectations is to identify what is sort of good enough, for example, by drawing on it their supervisor's expertise. This way of dealing with expectation can be understood as borrowing others. Judgment of how much work is enough work and what can be done to navigate this structural requirement.

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Anna Khanukaeva:  Here I read the quote from Linda.

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They were like immediately. They were pretty much said that, okay, this is too much You're not gonna be able to feed it all in. So what we're going to do is that we're going to report another study that they conducted already, that it was already pretty much done in the project. So one article done.

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and then co-write like one article for both of the project. So basically, it went from 5 articles to 3 articles almost immediately, which is, I mean, it's interesting. I didn't know that that was possible, or you know that you can be that that can be a solution, but that was already one

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Anna Khanukaeva: they already initiated by them. They were like, Oh, no, this is not gonna happen. Linda.

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Anna Khanukaeva: who is a post talk at her like

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Anna Khanukaeva: still, early stages of her post. The career her example illustrates how learning tricks of trade from experienced actors can be part of making sense of this expectations, and show possible what possible ways to find working consensus or forming a coherent picture of their work. So another way that can that can be happening is turning to another figure, not in the project, but to the head of the unit, in order to borrow some also, like some wisdom

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Anna Khanukaeva: supposed to extend, learn how to plan, work, how to prioritize, or and what is expected that can happen in formally and not very explicit. There are a few characteristics which appear to be present in the situations when postdocs use people's judgment or advice is reference, so Posix refer to their professional qualities which is like having previous experiences, formal accomplishments.

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Anna Khanukaeva: There is thus an element of trust in the competence of others. There should be an existent relation where postdocs actually respects the opinion of the person they borrow the logic from, and at the same time they trust them enough

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Anna Khanukaeva: in, in, in professional capacity to know what has to be done. Another potential element of the relationship is being close to close enough to be able to ask the question which are needed to do the expectation work and then choose the course of action.

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Anna Khanukaeva: This is related to sort of like trust in oneself, being entitled, feeling entitled to expect help from others. The aspects also highlight different gender dynamics, and can be seen more throughout the lens of power struggles. And I will do more analysis of that elsewhere in the thesis. Thus some qualities of the relations allow postdocs to feel like they can borrow the logic of navigating Academia and use it at least partially to navigate uncertainty

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Anna Khanukaeva: and team.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Okay, after learning to pass the standard. what do they need to do? A little more? Thus, expectation work, and also draw another judgment, as we said, to do what is right. But then it uses this sort of standard to try to be like a little bit better than just good enough, although the formal expectations might be too high to meet without some tinkering, as we have just seen in Linda's case.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Postdocs seldom describe living up to these expectations as enough by contrast, they describe expectations of being better

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Anna Khanukaeva: than others, and that situation happens due to the structural constraints of postdocs, experiences which are scarcity of position, and that means that they have to be better than the others.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Mit.

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Anna Khanukaeva: then I feel a competition. I look at like, okay. So when would it be even reasonable for me to apply? And who is ahead of me? And so then I feel the competition also a little bit like with the people in my same cohort, like people who defended the thesis about the same time, those my closest friends like research wise. But I also keep track a little bit on like I if they got research funding and you get a bit both super happy for them, but also a bit stressed like, okay, so now it's yeah. And

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Anna Khanukaeva: that is, I think, a bit related to also the permanent positions that you know that they also will apply for like in 10 years or something. Here is about accounts, illustrates that postdocs try to find this tangible reference groups criteria in order to build this expectation and find the practical, embodied competition people whose work they follow. They try to measure themselves against it and set the goals for their own work.

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Anna Khanukaeva: so relating to expectations as competition means that the Postdocs colleagues get the opposite role compared to the previous section, where the senior colleagues could be people from whom postdocs could land experience. So then the competition comes to the forefront of a conversation or relationship, and talking to others increases rather than decreases, pressures that expectations can involve.

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Anna Khanukaeva: and then we move on to the third way of doing expectation work which is other than using senior colleagues, judgment, or competing with peers. It's distancing oneself from the expectations. This is done in more or less explicit ways. Implicitly. Postdocs can distance themselves from expectations by simply not living up to academic norms. One example can be a difference between their own actions. For example, like

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Anna Khanukaeva: choosing not to go to the conference, and then academic norm, the norm that you expected to go to the conference rather than their effort to live up to this expectations. Another way of distancing oneself from expectation, is treating them as more like a systematic problem, not something the Postdocs are individually capable of dealing with.

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Anna Khanukaeva: and then the recurrent approach was to attribute expectations as generated by the system. In cases where postdocs applied this framework, they claim not to feel competition with individuals, or at least not individuals being responsible for how they feeling rather than being in more like in a competitive structure. Here is one example of how they deal with it. I read from 150

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Anna Khanukaeva: Emmanuel.

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Anna Khanukaeva: So key strategies, I think, is to find sort of spaces to actually wind down properly like having interests outside Academia. I think that's really important way to sort of detach yourself a little bit. Actually having a kid is not too bad, either. I mean that I really require your full attention. Speaking of the routines like before, with boundlessness, it sort of forces routines upon you because a child needs routines and stability

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Anna Khanukaeva: mit Ctl, and you're sort of Lego master Build. So I don't think it's a waste of time at all. I think it's also like a really important way to socialize yourself into being an academic or being socialized into the like academic life, one

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Anna Khanukaeva: where you're part of sort of broader epistemic, collective. I think that's really important, and I think you have to sort of like, I said. Embrace that and follow that.

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Anna Khanukaeva: But it's also about finding a balance, because again, this boundlessness. There are tones of roads to walk all at the same time.

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Anna Khanukaeva: So Emmanuel here talks about this academic work being boundless earlier in the conversation, and then he contrast this chaos with the structure which he gets from belonging to another collective, which is a family one. Then he emphasizes in this excerpt that it's important to have life outside of academia as academic work. Life is just one part of his life.

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Anna Khanukaeva: just one collective, just one engagement out of the several. So this puzzle of commitments, responsibilities, and managing these sort of like, as he said, the dark side of boundlessness of academic work then becomes a part of how he deals with the expectation work by taking distance, returning to other parts of his life.

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Anna Khanukaeva: So From the analysis above we can see that postdocs engage in the both individual and collective understanding of expectations. Individual expectations relate to them as persons what they need to accomplish, and how that has to look like, while the collective one are more related to the structural positioning of the postdoc. And what that means for the postdoc who is part of that structure.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Postdocs reflect about the expectations which they have from other people, their supervisors, their colleagues. They also touch upon what other people expect them to do as part of being a postdoc of being a successful postdoc. There are also ways to navigate expectation as they mismatch or common conflict with one another. An expectation. Work, then, is an attempt to lessen this uncertainty and figure out what is at least the next step which blocks you need for this legal puzzle if we borrow Emmanuel's metaphor.

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Anna Khanukaeva: this is all from me. So thank you for listening. I'm looking forward to your questions and comments.

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Thank you very much

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Kathia Serrano: for being also mindful of the time, and again sorry for the name. yes, we have. We have now 6 min or questions. Are there any questions in the room or the audience. Virtually.

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if Yup, we have one in the room.

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Hi! I'm Walter! From Walter, from Halle in Germany. This was really interesting. I just wanted to know. Do you plan to to use the notion of expectations also, with regard to the future, like, how? postdocs reflect about their future?

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Anna Khanukaeva: thanks for the question, yeah, I think, I, I have a lot of material about time and relation to the time

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Anna Khanukaeva: in how post talks, talk about them, and different temporalities of like present, past, and future. And I think I I want to use the expectation also as a way to like for them to sort of navigate which roads for them are open to sort of like, which futures to perceive, because I think, or like, at least from my material, I can see that they relate to this multiple futures that are out there. Not just one.

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So yeah, I think I would use that also in that sense or plan on doing that.

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Kathia Serrano: if there is no more question, I would have a a question. I mean, there are lots of reports out there that would say that the poster crowd is not doing so well, and there is an increasing literature also on on well being mental health problems in in academia.

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Kathia Serrano: What happens? Do you have? Have you encountered, you know, people who did not manage that expectation work who failed at at at managing their expectation, and

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Kathia Serrano: who had problems actually distancing themselves. You have accounts of those mental problems.

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Anna Khanukaeva: yes, I think I have various sort of like experiences. It's quite varied in the sense that how people relate to their postdoctoral experiences, and I do want to like, claim that I

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Anna Khanukaeva: thing that expectation work is not something that you do once, and then you done. I think it's more like an ongoing process that you have to maintain throughout your whole postal experience. Otherwise you not really be able to like continue doing it. At the same time, I think there are a lot of accounts as well, of like people struggling and figuring out, Okay, what can I do to like?

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Anna Khanukaeva: when these expectations sort of like fall through and how to reach out for help, I think.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Emanuel's account is one of them in in some sense, because there is so many things that he's also like turning to other places to sort of find other stability in his life that is not in work. And I think there, yeah, I think there are more. And I have an yeah, it's like another section that I have is more like relationship with other people, and how that sustains and supports

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Anna Khanukaeva: and adds, maybe, or takes away from the stress of being postdoc. So I think I'll explore the more like emotional work of this expectation work there as well.

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Kathia Serrano: Thank you. Other questions in the room or the audience.

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Yeah, we have 2 more, 3 more. We have to see. If yes, thank you very much for your very interesting presentation.

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I did talk about the helping professionals in the part 2. I think of this. session having professionals in the context of universities, and I ask myself if there If

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is there a match between the demand for help by this postdocs and and the offering. Did your interview partners mention this kind of professional services

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in universities? Thank you.

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Anna Khanukaeva: thank you for your question. here I focus more on like postdocs and their sort of experiences. Some of them mentioned that they turn to some help or like support at the universities, but I mostly talk mostly. I just talk to the postdocs and see what's their narrative around their experience. but I would agree that it could be interesting to see how that match works, if does, or if it's also if there are some potential tensions in matching these 2 together.

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Anna Khanukaeva: yeah.

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Anna Khanukaeva: with Rica. Thank you, Anna, with regards to time, would say, should we just take the last 2 questions in common, and then you can provide an answer for the both of them, would that be all right? Okay.

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don't comment. Yeah. So you want to make it. Or, okay.

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I'm very interesting. because I'm also at box look. And I'm very interested in the the concept of sense making. And my question is that how you is? And is there any ideas of you to connect your findings as organizational matter is, is is very simple question. Yeah?

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And the the second question, maybe, which we get. I didn't have a question.

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Kathia Serrano: Oh, okay, okay, so that's it.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Yeah, definitely. I,

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Anna Khanukaeva: as I build my analysis that these are like the parts of building blocks. And I think, thoroughly. I mentioned that I think this sense making is sort of like part of this narrative as part of what sort of like drives or like, keeps the academic as a academia, as organizations and universities, as organizations like going, because that work that a postdocs do at the individual level is also sort of like this.

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Anna Khanukaeva: version of the like individualization of the work that is happening as like a more general phenomenon in the labor market. And I think we can also see that in the academic work, in a sense, so I definitely will

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Anna Khanukaeva: sort of link it even more back to the organization that they belong to.

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Anna Khanukaeva: Thank you for your questions. It was very, very nice to see what picked your interest. Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Kathia Serrano: So next presentation would be by Jon. He's how engineers account for their professional identities.

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Thank you both

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so. Hello, everybody! My name's Jan Hayes. I'm from Rmit University, which is just up the road. So I'm very local to here. I'm presenting today on behalf of myself and my colleague, Sarah Maslin, who is at University of Canberra.

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Sarah and I, between us, have more than a decade of research talking to engineers in the context of prevention, of major industrial accidents.

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we're also interested in professional identity, professional decision making and professionalism in all kinds of of ways, as our major research area.

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and the topic of this session. I I must thank the organizers for putting forward this topic. It kind of crystallized our thoughts on identity in somewhat of something that we've been thinking about for some years. So this this paper is very much work in progress. I'm not presenting a small slice of an entire Ph. D. As many people have attempted to do. This is hopefully more than a thought bubble on our part, but we'll be interested to see what

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you make of it.

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So, as I said, we work in the area of accident prevention and in the twentieth century safety scholars that were focusing on accident prevention were who were interested in what people were doing were largely psychologists.

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there was a a significant exception to that. There was a guy called Barry Turner, who, back in the 1970 S. As a sociologist, wrote a really seminal book called Man-made Disasters, and he was really the only sociologist who was interested in looking at the organizational aspects of why accidents happen.

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On the other hand, he was very much a forerunner, but fast forwarding to where the discipline is at now this kind of idea that organisations are where we should be looking for solutions to accident causation.

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It's been picked up by other sociologists, obviously, but also by social psychologists and management scholars. So it's really now not debated that a focus on the organisation within safety science is the best way to predict and control human behaviour, and to understand why accidents happen.

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So. Broadly speaking, the reason is that there's an intent to dig deeper than the previous approach some decades ago, which was really focused on blaming frontline workers.

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But Sarah and I think there's a problematic side effect to this effectively. The current framing of safety as an organisational phenomenon means that if we're focusing on any group of professionals at all, we're focusing on the most senior managers. We're focusing on the board. We're focusing on the top management group, and of course they deserve research attention.

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But what that means is that professionals involved in the design and oversight of complex socio-technical systems appear as docile, or, as the psychologists might say, as passive actors in the system, and organizational attention and scholarly attention is really moved away from them.

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So this leads us to this research question, about to what degree are engineering identities the subject of organizational socialization.

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the study that we've done, or that we're in the process of doing is really a collated ethnography based on 2 prior projects of many

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that we've completed in the last couple of years. The first of those studies was about professional, non-technical capabilities. So interviewing engineers that work in complex socio-technical systems about about what they felt were the most important non-technical capabilities in their profession for making excellent decisions, for preventing major accidents.

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That's a whole other topic that we have, you know, drawn out of that data. The second study was about risk governance in procurement, procurement being about supply chains and supply chain failure being a a common feature in in accident causation. So we did another major study about risk governance processes regarding supply chains

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across those 2 studies that we had nearly a hundred people participate. and of course, as well as talking about the content. Almost all of those interviews started with the engineers introducing themselves.

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introducing themselves to us.

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And so our study here focuses on how those engineers present themselves. What's their engineering identity as articulated by our research participants in the opening phases of these research interactions

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where we're grounding things here on sociological work on identity. obviously, sociology, in a classical sense, is concerned with collective identities at the level of societies.

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A symbolic interactionist approach would consider making the making of ourselves in much smaller social groups.

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But more recently, we're drawing on work by Bauman, who talks about the dissolution of traditional social structures as leading to liquidly modern selves.

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Hmm. Or identity as being heterogeneous and fluid in in Beck's conceptualization.

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So I guess we're expecting that these professionals would identify to some extent with their organisations, but perhaps also with their profession itself, and the discipline that they originate from, and we find in the literature studies that support both of those views I mean host, child's famous work with the flight attendants talked about their identity being grounded in in organizations.

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On the other hand, Becker's work with medical students was very much focused on professions as the formation of the self.

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So we have things to draw on in both of those areas. So here's a little of what we find when we take those 97 paragraphs out of our research transcripts and look at them somewhat systematically.

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First of all. Unsurprisingly, we find an organizational. We involved some people identify as holders of a specific position or role. They start their introduction by saying, I'm the managing director of Company A, or I'm the engineering manager and chief technical officer for a certain organization.

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More than that, some people actually continue the conversation and describe their career, their experience using an organisational. We. There's a couple of small coats there, and there are many others we could draw on. So we're doing a lot of work in the hydrogen sector that doesn't mean this person individually. It means the company that they work for.

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We've expanded from oil and gas traditional. We're looking to diversify. So we're also working in the wind farm space. And here again, they're not talking about what they do. They're not. This isn't a task focus. This is an organisational focus.

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but not everybody goes there. Others introduce themselves based on their profession. In fact, they discipline usually with this group of people. As I said, these are mainly engineers, so we had lots of people who say early on in the interaction with them. I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm a civil engineer. They identify strongly with the discipline that they started from.

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We also find that the descriptions roll together different affiliations. So there's one there that's, you know, one of many typical examples. I'm a graduate systems engineer. I also have a degree in it. I originally started work based in this location for this company. I worked there for 8 years. I had responsibility for this.

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I went. I've moved from here to here. I worked on rotating equipment. I did this. I did that. So you can see here that this person is articulating their identity, based around their discipline, around their education status.

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who they've been employed by what technologies they've worked with, and the breadth and depth of their professional experience.

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There's also a sense here in the data that some individuals understand that roles are temporary, and careers are forever so they don't identify so strongly with an individual role. They say things like, Well, my current role. You could call me chief engineer. So this person is making that separation between the role they hold and their identity.

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The other temporal factor that's present in the data is, many people articulate the length of their experience.

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Okay? So they're they're seeing their identity grounded in this industry over a long period of time.

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as we've also articulated.

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Some people articulate their experience and their their identity in relation to the technology that they've worked with.

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So one person said, I've moved from marine engineering, reciprocating engines to gas turbine engines.

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And that's not all relevant to the content of the conversation we're seeking to have with them. But they see that as an important part of describing who they are.

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So also in describing technologies, activities, and projects, they've been involved with. Some interviewees frame this as an achievement. It's as if we should be impressed by what they've done. So I have a really broad understanding of how it all works.

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Okay, I've built some big things I've worked overseas. I've seen how projects run. I bring a lot of experience, in other words, a lot of experience to the interview.

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Okay?

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So it's also interesting to consider what's missing from this data.

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And what's missing is a sense of the social. So these engineers work in large projects with many, many other people. None of these people send. They don't spend their days sitting in an office by themselves. They work with large groups, but most of them don't mention the social environment. There are very small number of exceptions. A couple of people talked about the team who works for them.

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Okay. but 2 examples of that there on the page. I've got a team of 28 individuals. I've got a team of principal engineers, but even that second one is articulating this team of principal engineers as a way of telling us what all the technologies are that these principal engineers are responsible for.

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So what we find in this is almost no mention of the social outside of work.

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There were a couple of people who mentioned family, but only in the context of

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the reason that they move from one job to another might have been family related. It's the only time families mentioned at all, or any other identity outside of their profession and their work.

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So we even had 2 people who effectively talked about their failed selves. which is kind of an interesting way of articulating who you are. So the first one is a quite long quote, but he says I was really a bad civil engineer for a long time.

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The second person says, Well, I've got 34 years experience. I started work 34 years ago to try to be an engineer, and I've never succeeded.

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Hmm!

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At this stage we're not too sure what to make of these ones. But yeah. it could be the Australian self deprecating thing. But anyway, it's interesting, nonetheless.

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So what to make of all of this.

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What we see is that the making of people is a shared project across organisations, professions, technologies, and smaller social groups over an entire career.

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We see that individuals are cultivating and carrying norms, values, skills and modes of communication throughout their careers. So therefore, if we're trying to study identity, we need to consider identity, construction, and performance of identity over longer temporal scales.

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We find that this speaks to contemporary sociological theorisations based around issues such as heterogeneous identity and cobbled together identity

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they really resonate with this data.

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And as for the importance of the work harking back to why we're doing this and our grounding in in safety and accident causation for both organisations and scholars in that area. We need to acknowledge professional workers as having agency, and therefore being very important in that picture of accident prevention. Having said that we would also believe it should be of interest to the broader organisational sociology area.

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That's all I've got to say.

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Thank you.

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Kathia Serrano: Okay, this gives you as again. about 6 min to develop into the discussion.

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Are there any questions?

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Well, I mean, you're cute.

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No, you okay. So so so thanks a lot. that's for the interesting presentation. So I'm not sure if that is really helpful. what I have to say now, but as you might anyway, as you might already see it coming, it is the obligatory, Lumen. Comment.

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it so from a perspective of a theory of society, I found it really interesting that this seems to tell the story of like the case of modernity and the case of individuality. So when you think back historically, where what you were defined by your estate or by your basically by your position, and in the social hierarchy. So you like social reproduction.

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functioned via birth. Basically, you were born into your state, whereas nowadays it's very different to keep it short. And and Lumen would argue that career is actually the functional equivalent.

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to that. So so how do you distinguish yourself as an individual from others? And one big mechanism is actually career like that. That's what like, my career is different than yours, and so on. So I think this mirrors this very, very well that that I just wanted to mention that I think that's a very nice case of of that. So it's more common, maybe, but sure, all right. Thank you very much for that

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conceptualisation of what we're looking at. Thank you.

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I don't know if I have a helpful question. But that was fantastic, Jane. Thank you. I I guess my question is, I I wonder if the social is

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kind of

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in the subtext of how engineers talk about moving from one position to another, and that there's a kind of hidden coded language there about about their personality, about their kind of risk, appetite, about the kinds of things that excite them and their expertise, and that kind of general disposition that's actually buried in a particular specialization within engineering, and that this kind of code of language is known to each other.

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but not to non-experts. I mean, I know you know, a lot about engineering, but it still there still might be a deeper kind of coded

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language there, because I think this is anecdote, but my partner works in it, and they do talk in a way where this person works in this particular kind of programming, and they know immediately that that signals something about that person.

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their kind of dispositions.

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And I wonder if there's something going on there, and how you would actually get to that kind of data. Okay, thank you for that. That's an interesting idea.

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So Jen and I have thought about this and talked about it as well. But in a way, so in in focusing on these opening phases and interactions, what we're kind of getting is partly the dance of presenting self. Right? so I understand what you're meaning. The other thing that it reminds me of a little bit is that

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the engineers that we know very well over this long period of time have a tendency to kind of speak in these a social, a ethical kind of terms, and it doesn't reflect necessarily who they are right, that they that that's part of of being a professional in this space. So thank you for that comment. We'll definitely take that on board. Thanks.

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Yeah. We have one more question in the room. Yeah.

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or maybe even another one. Then.

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yeah, thank you. I found this really really interesting. and you try to identify different patterns. I would like to. comment on 2 of them. So you had one that you refer to as being coupled together, or something like that.

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I think there

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might be another perspective on this, on a on a, on narrating career, maybe, which would come from Martin Cooley.

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So you know, having an institutionalized

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limbs, love, or that live course right? So this would actually mean that it is but more structured rather than being cobbled together and liquid.

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So you might have a different pattern also that you have not considered. I'm not sure. And towards these failed selves market Archer has the fractured form of reflexivity that might be helpful for thinking about that

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excellent. Thank you so much.

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Yeah. And then we have.

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Kathia Serrano: Yes, we have. Thank you.

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Thank you. I really appreciate your product. And also your talk. My question is, to what extent do you think the civil engineering. professional identity are similar and also different

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from professional identity? Other

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occupations, in other words, what are the maybe unique characteristics. or for civil engineering, professional identity. Thank you.

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I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment on that. Do you have any from the work you've done with medical people or Elvis?

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Yeah, I I don't. I don't know the the risk here in talking about this is, we fall back on stereotypes right? And I'm not sure. I'm not sure how helpful that is at the minute. And I yeah, we haven't looked at it. Comparatively so. I've studied many domains, and they are peculiar in their own ways in what they're focusing on and their ways of getting inculturated into different professions, and so on. But yeah, we've not. I'm not sure I've got a good one liner on it. Sorry!

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How are we? Time-wise?

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We are at the end of this particular slot. Thank you very much. for this excellent discussion.

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let's continue with Leonie Bushcamp and Tim's on contests and the making of people in a comparative perspective.

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Okay. yeah, thank you for having us here. Thank you for joining our presentation in the following 15 min we will speak about competition in different fields.

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the fields we are looking at the economic field, the academic field, and the field of arts, and our main interest in our field. Comparing perspective is in how far funding contests in these fears differ regarding the structural elements of competition, and what effects these difference have on on people.

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So why, there's a lot of research and competition. And also, yeah, quite a few research about contests comparing to compared in different fields, especially, for instance, on rankings.

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There's

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no research. Also, far, we don't know any research comparing funding contests in different fields. so we focus, therefore, on the question how contests are shaped in different fields, and how contests makes people differently according to the different forms.

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first, I want to give you a very brief overview about our understanding on competition which is rooted in Zimmer's work.

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yeah. With regard to Luzemil or as to Zimil, or by one we conceptualize, we conceptualize competition as a triadic relationship in which Ego and alta you can see them below in the triangle are courting for the favor of a third party. because the third party is distributing a scarce code ego, and either are competing for

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the scarce good could be. For instance, economic resources, prices, tenants

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our reputation, and there's also by authors like a Wyonson or others, a force party added to the competition

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theory and forced parties at one organising contest. But they are not involved in distributing the scarce good. So in the context of multiple competition, you here we make a differentiation between competition and contests, and why, competition is an ongoing, seamless, and seemingly endless process. How stark put it!

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the specific contest is a so yeah. Competition, which is discrete and bounded in time and location.

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So we have a fear, theoretical perspective, and we think that different fields have different particularities and characteristics.

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and for the 3 fields we are looking at. I would like to present you now some of these differences. So in the economic fields, organizations compete with organizations. But funding contests are also

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are also usually within organisation. So in such cases the organizations tries to coordinate their members action internally by using funding contest as a governance mood.

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In academia funding contests are probably the most important factor for organizational reputation, but they are also really important for the. For the scientists.

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however, the evaluation of funding contest differs between the organization and the scientist.

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and in the field of art there is a really strong interconnection between the competing organizations or artists and the organization organizing the competition. Also, there is to a high degree uncertainty. referring the distribution of the scarce good. So

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and this in our yeah. Field. Comparing perspective, we argue that that industry fields are differences referring the competitive behavior, the perceptions and valuation systems of the competing actors.

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and we assume, referring to neo-institutional meal to basic concept of neo-institutionalism, sorry in terms of diffusion and isomorphism that each fear tends to cultivate a different mode or funding contest.

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And now Tim will continue with presenting our data and our preliminary findings.

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Yeah, thanks, Steve. They they only very much for giving us the the theoretically basis on of what they are talking about today. And in order to analyze a bit about the feared differences of different contexts in different organizational fields, with a focus on the economy, economy, academia, and arts in the economy, we focused on

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the idea of competition. So this is about people who compete with ideas for getting funding for their ideas in an organization. Here we conducted 43 interviews. So far

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in the field of Academia, we focus on the competition of groups of researchers for winning clusters of excellence.

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and we conducted, I think, 45 interviews with University Presidents. We conducted 12 interviews with representatives from the Federal States, and 12 with people involved in those funding contests. In the clusters of accidents. We also analyzeed documents as well as in the field of arts. We are not we where we are? Not? So far we only conducted 7 interviews in the field of arts, and focus

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on a funding contest which is about finding the curators for a large International Arts Exhibition. So here the contest is about finding the curators of that exhibition. We did an analyzers and qualitative analysis of the content of the interviews which was theoretically guided. Referring to the theoretical elements, they only gave us, according to simile

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and the roar ionsome, and also their own. So we looked for the competitors in the contests for the scar Scots. We looked for the third and the fourth parties in each funding contest, and compared them, and we admit

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that our theoretical, our empirical approach, is somehow limited at that point of our research with regard to the question, for instance, in how far each contest can be seen as representative for the field, we will still have to do some search on that. And also we have a different amount of data on each contest, which is a little bit because the data stems from different

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projects, and we still have to see how how we deal with that question.

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Now. I really practised to do that for you yesterday a bit, and I came to the recite that I will not manage to talk about all of the stuff in each table, but I will try to give you some spotlights. Nevertheless, looking at the funding contest in the economic fear where we can see that the the company really tries to motivate everybody, to to participate in the funding contest, thinking that in in times

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today innovation is something everybody should contribute to, not just like this one inventor. Not many in earlier days, but everybody should be able to contribute ideas.

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And this is

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the way. How the organization addresses its members, not to, I don't know. Organize sports clubs in the afternoon, and to give away your ideas during the time you work at the the production lines in the morning, but everybody should contribute this. Like the philosophy.

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Then we have third parties, which are the managers of the of the the company, but also the globe, the print, and those at like a public event in the end of it both a distribute this passcode and decide which idea should receive. Funny

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Miss Cascot would be financial resources for the for the project, but also for the people who win the contest as well as the hope for career advances, and there is no fourth party, so we don't have that. The the third party distributes the Sas codes and also decides on the organization of the contest. We don't have a fourth party in the Al-wa yon song at I sense in this contest.

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So let's look at our field of academia in Academia

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not all of the scientists are allowed to participate in the contest. The access is limited to sites like the

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the documents of the German Research Foundation. Only those who are extraordinarily extraordinarily visible scientists are allowed to participate which may be well-known professors, and also the university leadership strikes to have some impact on the lineup in order to make the proposal especially promising.

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the process is steered by the third party of the Genome Research Foundation, which distributes this cascot, and it's a very highly formalized project. So you can read about the Ruis in in beforehand. You know what happens at which time, which is not the case in

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in the economic theatre every time the reviewers are known, are not known before you submit the application. You know them afterwards, and there are like strategic practices how to deal with them. You cite them when you got the funding.

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but you don't directly cooperate in order not to lose them as potential refuge in the next stage. So we have such approaches. How to deal with the third party. What is interesting in this case is also the role of the State as a fourth party, the State which organizes the process.

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but at the same time the Federalist States, who also also organise it, found out that it is very interesting to look at how the other Federal States in Germany perform. So even so, that was not the original idea. This third party becomes a direct competitor itself, comparing itself with the other Federal States and inventing methods how to improve

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the performance of the own universities in the Federal States. Most important as a Scarscot is the reputation.

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If we look at the fit of arts, one can say that as a scientist that seems to be quite far away with different regards. So, looking at the confession, who is allowed to compete, we can see here only those who are proposed by the finding committee. So the final comedy comedy decides who can

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even be a competitive actor, and those who are not asked are not allowed to compete. We have a very low degree of formalization. There are no rules, they can even be spontaneously changed in the progress.

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and we have at the high degree of commitment of the third party, which is the finding committee during the process. So after they selected a winner curator, they become some kind of an advisory board. Here

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full advisors without the project or the art exhibition.

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and we also, what is kind of interesting have a high meaning of trust. So it is very common here that the people highlight that being able or being able to trust that the work together.

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there's a comment with with the finding committee and the organization who organizes it. The art organization, which would be the fourth or fourth party, is like a valid selection criteria. For who wins the contests, which also seems to be quite a

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different in the case of academia. Right? We have a fourth party which organizes the contests, and here also we have political actors, those political actors involved in the Advisory Board.

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and they somehow do not only organize the process, but afterwards they also become competitive actors, since they involve the organization of the Exhibition, and compare themselves with other cities, who could also be like organizing art contests.

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What can we learn from these little spotlight? We present this middle spotlight we presented. First, we can, I think, see

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that depending on the way, how a funding contest is shaped and also depending on feared routines

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and period frames, it differs

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which actors can even participate as competitive actors in a contest.

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We can also see that there is a difference in hybridity.

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There are third and fourth parties, usually in the different contests.

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but they don't remain only a third party or fourth party in each cage, but they can also be a hypert

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hecta.

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taking other roles as a direct competitor in the related contest.

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and we can see that the valuation system differs. Each contests in each field goes along with different

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scar Scots, which become important for the competing actors.

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We would like to enter our our presentation with the question, and how far that is important for the socialization of

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organization organization and members. And we would argue that the way how people start to begin to think competitive. For instance, in academia dealing with the reviewers.

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or the self- understanding that trust can be like an important element for and selection criteria. For when women's contests are this innovation imperative in in the economic theat because it's not really taken for granted by each member of the organization.

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It does something with the people who work in their organizations and participate

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in the contests and based on that. We want to thank you very much for your attention and attention, and look forward to the questions.

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Kathia Serrano: Thank you very much. Thank you very much for keeping the time. We have now. 5 min for the discussion.

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Kathia Serrano: it should be so kind as to end the screen share.

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Kathia Serrano: Oh, yeah, thank you.

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Oh. I have a question if no one wants. But oh, they are great. So let's start.

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Hi, thank you. This approach is really interesting. Comparing different fields.

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I just want in the economic field. Is this, is this a good choice of your of your case, because

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I mean

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thinking of the economy, I would think of the market, and or at least a competition that does not take place

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within one formal organization.

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so one could think of I don't know. Risk funding something like that. No. What is that like these startup funding?

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Yeah. all one could think of architects. You know, that compete for a building project because this is really open.

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So that was just a thought that I had.

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Yeah, thanks a lot. I think it's a good thought. We we we have the same. We are not so sure yet. I mean, it's awesome doing this research. The problem is a little bit that if you would

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select only the cases you think that fit best, it's like

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a whole bunch of workloads, and

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we admit to some extent that we had data on on these cases. But we think about doing additional interviews in other cases, especially in the economic field. And we had the startups in mind. In this case it was about a trings right about lemonade and a contest to.

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We thought about a contest where especially startups try to get listed for the together of supermarkets.

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But that were, yeah, we were discussing a bit. So thanks a lot for the relatives.

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Yeah. And we have

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question yet.

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and thank you very much for your presentation. And one quick question I have is that you mentioned that it seems that one of your major theoretical framework is a new institutionalism. You're sighted to imagine how that

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framework and your institutionalism guide your research. No. And and because you talk about? On the computation there are new institutionalism seem to mainly focus on isomorphism. But if you talk about the competition here in the contest, it seems, Malay, to create the the differences

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right in terms of different differential status or different differential awards.

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So I just, I'm just wondering. I mean, what's the connection between new institutionalism and your empirical research? Thank you. Yeah, thanks a lot. I think that's an important one. Because of the it's also raising the question, and how far we can argue that funding contests within a field become more similar. And this is basically what it is about, because you could also like, compare differences

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ere.

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oh, okay.

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no.

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And this is, I guess, theoretically the link to a new institutionalism and asomorphism. And my approach. Yeah.

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we we we we the model to do that? Yeah, we we aim to identify how fields shape contests.

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Sorry for your presentation. I have a kind of follow up question to the colleague in the back. I was also struggling with your first case.

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and in this context, do you think it's a coincidence that you didn't get documents from the economic case. And Regarding to this, is there a kind of correlation between documents? And the fourth actor

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existed the existing the fourth X actor.

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 to the first party. I'm not so sure, because

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without the microphone they can't hear you online.

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Referring the fourth party, I am not so sure if there is a correlation, because what made us wonder when we actually conducted the data, that in the field of arts or in the funding contest we looked at. It seems pretty legitimate to to this trust-based don't on personal context. So it's really easy to find. For example, the

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it is a really easy to to find to find them also in in the documents.

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the economic case.

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They where are? Tim conducted the data, but he said it was already hard to get the the allowance to use the interviews.

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So I'm I'm not sure if it's just 2 cases, if we can say from them, is there? If there is a correlation between forced parties and the documents they provided or allowed us to use?

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I mean, I mean there would be documents we could analyze if we get them, which is kind of difficult. But there would not be a fourth party, because the fourth party is basically the question who distributes responsibility to select

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winners of a contest. And we don't have that in the economic case.

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Kathia Serrano: And with these words, I thank you very much. for this discussion. If people in the room have other questions, please address our presentators. at the end of the session, and I would like to ask Matt Wade

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to present his paper and

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Kathia Serrano: to present his paper on the demand for good feelings during bad times.

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Thank you.

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And

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perhaps a slightly melodramatic title.

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Right?

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Okay, you are all okay. Thank you.

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So first, I just want to say, thanks to

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everybody for being here on a Friday evening for those who are here in person, and

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Wherever else you are around the world. It's it's just really great to have your your presence after a long week. This talk is very much, really early work in progress material. I don't have any empirical findings to share. I'm actually still thinking about the best way to gather data for this.

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so this is more exploratory in theoretical material at the moment. So my kind of vague and not at all original thesis here is that through the increasing uptake of automated hiring processes.

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the gap between the emotional capital that is extracted from job applicants, compared with what is returned to them, is getting wider, significantly wider, because there is more and more pressure on job applicants to perform virtuoso displays of emotional labor in order to prove their worth, while employers exercise less and less reciprocity, yet derive increasing value from the data generated by those behavioral displays.

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I'm sorry I use this.

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Thank you. so again, this is really early exploratory work, and quite under theorized at the moment. But Let me start by noting this quote from my Angelou, which is featured on a big screen during the Annual High View Conference in 2,019 so high view as a software company specializing in the automation of job recruitment. most notably by having job applicants, pre record video responses to interview questions

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which are then assessed by artificial intelligence, which purports to recognize and measure not only job relevant aptitudes, but also elusive aspects of the applicant's character disposition and their emotional display.

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The sad irony, therefore, of seeing this Maya Angelou quote at a high-view conference is that high-view's unique selling. But selling point is offering a recruitment system that does not require hiring managers and recruiters to feel anything at all.

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They don't have to be present for the interview with the candidate, nor do they have to even watch it later. Instead, the applicant can be ranked, sorted, and culled without a human seeing their submitted video or interacting with them in any way at all. The whole process can be entirely automated, and it's up to the applicants themselves to make sure that they render themselves machine readable.

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Meanwhile, despite not interacting with another person, the job applicant is still expected to offer a fulsome, enthusiastic, sincere, authentic, persuasive articulate performance. And it's this growing gap between what is demanded from job applicants and what is then reciprocated that I'm keen to explore.

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So how do we get to this point of using AI to assess pre-recorded job interviews. So here's 3 quick points on this that you all probably already know. Firstly, there's the perpetual so called wall for talent, because human capital is perceived as the single most important factor in company success.

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Secondly, the hiring funnel, as it's referred to as becoming wider in that there are more applicants for every position, and the pandemic only exacerbated this with so many people out of work desperate to find a job applying for anything. So

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whichever businesses can source screen and select good candidates more efficiently than their competitors have a significant advantage. And I'll just quickly note here this this image kind of makes me laugh of

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the person who makes it through the hiring funnel is the kind of the generic white kind of suit.

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and

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so recruiters and Hr. Professionals are under enormous pressure in trying to find the best candidates among a huge cohort in the quickest time possible without getting into legal trouble.

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And then, thirdly, making matters trickier, is that often the qualities that are sorting applicants relate more and more to their capacities for emotional labor, self regulation, and convincing displays of sympathy and empathy with clients and customers, and so recruiters want applicants to prove these capacities, but without having to reciprocate those things themselves, because that is resource intensive and time consuming on their end. Like the the way to put this is that empathy is expensive, basically.

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And so it's for these reasons that automated solutions are really appealing to recruiters.

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There is also the aspiration to higher, smarter

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to analyze for personality and soft skills. So you can tell which candidates match your company. Vibe and they love using that word vibe as well. So there's perhaps other possibilities there for kind of theorizing the the narrow ranges of vibrancy that they're actually talking about in these particular socio-technical assemblages.

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We're often told that we must develop our soft skills in order to be spared from automation

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taking our jobs. So the next site I I need to note then, is that automated tools can't yet reliably perform these soft skills for the most part, but they will be given greater control in judging and managing how we perform them.

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And there has certainly been a rapid increase in workplace surveillance technologies serving that purpose of monitoring employees, emotional states. but also in this example, featured here is the promise to reduce bias in the hiring process which, of course, shouldn't be too quickly dismissed. We all know that

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discriminatory recruitment practices in hiring remain rampant despite decades of research, legal reforms, cultural and diversity training. Increased awareness of conscious and unconscious biases. And despite all these efforts, you know, discrimination remains in in hiring, and remains an enormous problem.

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and so some have suggested that you know these problems are so deeply entrenched that the question is why we are not

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using these automated tools more and more

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so altogether, the appeal is that we can hire faster, better, and fairer

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that

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with these tools clients can scientifically and responsibly stop wasting time and unsuitable candidates, while also reducing potential biases in their hiring.

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So for companies using these tools, what they want is defensible speed.

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They are usually hiring at scale for low-level positions with high turnover. So they just want good enough candidates recruited fast, but in a way that is legally permissible and doesn't risk reputational harm, and may, in fact, even enhance their reputation if the process is perceived as fairer over all.

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Another thing to know is, these companies always love this particular aesthetic. But that's again another discussion. so how does automated video interviewing work? to make things easier? I'm just gonna focus on high view today. but there are several other companies that do similar practices.

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So HIV has been around for a long time, actually since 2,004, and became well known for its one way, pre recorded video interviews where job applicants are given questions via an app record their responses on video, usually just using their phone or a laptop.

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And then the recruiter watches that video at a later time. So applicants can therefore record the video on their own time, and high viewers actually stated that that at one time 40% of their applicant interviews were actually recorded on a Sunday.

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And there's many things we could say about that in terms of it, increasing accessibility for job applicants, but at the same time extracting more of their leisure time. Basically.

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So in 2,016 high-view launched its new service. That included AI analysis where pre-recorded video interviews would be assessed by AI that ranks and predicts the suitability of candidates.

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This automated software assessed the candidate's voice, intonation, speech, inflections and pitch

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eye contact. And that's eye contact with the with the camera, because there's no other person there, of course, and also measured, was their perceived enthusiasm, word, choice grammar and sentence structure, and their facial expressions to looking for certain micro-expressions that can be detected by the machinic gaze.

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The AI-based facial analysis components were discontinued in 2,021, due to widespread criticism. But automated interviewing scoring remains a common practice

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between its regular pre-recorded interviews and the AI assessed ones, high viewers collected more than 19 million videos. And that's actually an old number that I need to Update. So they are an enormous company there, with an extraordinary set of data that they continue to exploit

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for businesses. The use of high-view means that they can rapidly accelerate their hiring by simply eliminating candidates quicker. So it's not really about automating selection. It's about automating rejection.

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so a quick example of this Hilton hotels used high view for their for their kind of low-level hiring. They received 43,000 applications, and they eliminated two-thirds of those without any human intervention at all.

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 so no humans saw any of the interviews from the rejected candidates and that kind of efficiency enabled Hilton to shorten their hiring cycle from 6 weeks to 5 days.

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Now, of course, thinking of examples like that. You

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you also will know that you know where big data and machine learning and algorithmic judgment are involved, there is a potential to commit harm at a massive scale. and so I just want to quickly acknowledge some of these problems which you'd all be aware of anyway, already. of course, there is the highly contested validity of emotion, recognition technologies.

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persistent issues of racial gendered ages, ableist biases and facial recognition and related technologies. All these complex debates around algorithmic fairness

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and the potential reproduction of existing biases in large part because assessment models in automated hiring by design. They have to be based on pre-existing data.

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and they're often based on current employees who are determined to already be the ideal cultural fit. So it kind of just reproduces the past in a way. And then there's the impossibility of refusal, of informed consent. So certain jurisdictions. Certain States in the Us. Now have introduced a requirement that persons must be informed if their interview will be assessed by AI.

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But it's not really clear what anyone could meaningfully do with that with that information, or what kind of resistance would even be possible when you're in that kind of subjugated, precarious position of trying to find work.

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and this list of problems could be extended much further. But the very brief thing I want to focus on is that effective gap where employers try to

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refuse the possibility of being affected by an applicant while the applicant has the task themselves of trying to induce within themselves the the necessary kind of surface or deep acting required in order to make the machine assessor see them in a positive light.

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So in thinking about this increasing gap. 2 concepts that seem particularly relevant are hegemonic positivity and emotional extraction, and these ideas come from from 2 papers from Roger Pittoli and Jan Pedos side of them here, but I can share them later, if you like.

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and here's a couple of quick illustrative quotes from these papers that speak to this heightened and unending demand for forms of positivity, and the emotional regulation that can be produced and sustained at any time under any circumstances.

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and the the relative coldness and hostility of the AI assessed automated interview, you know, actively creates these conditions in a way almost by design. It implicitly says that if you can produce convincing behavioral displays of ideal conduct without even having another person to interact with. Then you are an exemplar of the compliant, self-regulating worker.

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and increasingly, companies want to know if a person has these attributes before they waste any time interacting with them at all.

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These tools are almost exclusively used for lower-paid entry-level jobs, which means that these practices can be placed in that long historical line by which subjugated and marginalized people are given less scope and freedom for emotional expression, a greater self-regulatory demand to produce a narrow range of emotional display.

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And then something I'd very quickly note from Jan Pedios's paper is that these demands for a narrow range of emotions that can be produced at will are all oriented around the pursuit of predictive power and worker control. And so they are profoundly normalizing technologies because the applicant is nudged to conform to what they sense is the hegemonic ideal. There's lots of kind of folk wisdom that get traded about how you are seen by this gaze.

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and to actively curtail any behaviors that might raise a red flag within these systems.

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So, to conclude.

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here are a few questions, I think, are worth exploring further in this area.

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What happens to persons who are insistently entrained to make their behavioral displays machine readable where it just follows you, not just from recruitment, but into the workplace itself.

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What happens when you have to retrofit yourself for still limited technologies that are directed towards ever more expensive ends.

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giving these systems often hide the logics by which their measures are determined. What happens to the subject, who must navigate their systems, but never really knows how they are known by them is the morally charged context of the job interview a form of personal testimony?

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If so, what are the ethical implications of the refusal to bear witness to testimony.

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and who suffers most from this dual injury of the refusal to reciprocate? Yet still has that expectation placed upon themselves to produce machine affecting displays.

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And finally, in talking about applications of emerging technology, we often place emphasis on privacy and fairness. But what about dignity and respect?

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Privacy and fairness are arguably easier to define, and therefore easier to operationalize and automate. But the insistence on making the subject transparent in a way that cannot be resisted, and where nothing is returned in kind, seems to me to threaten some fundamental sense of dignity and respect.

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And so Virginia Eubank said that we can't just give up on aspiring towards empathy, because the potential long-term consequences of that abdication of responsibility are pretty frightening to contemplate. So that's where I'll stop. Thank you for listening.

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Thank you very much.

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Kathia Serrano: Thank you very much, Matt, for this frightful insight into new recruiting techniques.

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Kathia Serrano: Are there some questions? We have a yes, for 5 min. Thank you.

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Matt. Thanks for your fantastic paper. You mentioned at the start. You're not sure how to investigate this. Let's talk about method. what? What are you thinking? At the moment

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an obvious question would be to interview people who have been through this kind of process. part of me also wants to

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to find data that already exists out there where people are talking to this other, to each other about the injuries experience of going through this and trading wisdom. So you can see

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such as forums on Reddit.

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forums on, read it called hiring hell where people talk about their negative experiences of

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of this kind of process. That, of course, is a skewed kind of data set. but I mean, do you have any ideas? What that was? Yeah, I can tell you what I would do. I would do this as a digital ethnography. So I would find people who are going to do this. I would go to their house, and I would video them doing it, and then I would debrief with them. Right? Yeah, that's super interesting. I worry that.

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that I would adversely impact somebody's job prospects by being right. So you would need to kind of basically set up a a camera on an on a tripod and kind of step back. But the thing that might be interesting about that is often when people are working on these things, I mean, it might be slightly different when it comes to AI and video recording. But often these are not solo events. So you might capture, particularly if you showed up a bit before conversations with flatmates or parents about some

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prep. Around this relation to this device, and maybe capturing that. How do you work it? How do you become machine readable? Or how do you even package self? Because there's 2 layers here right there's the packaging of the self, plus the fact that you're trying to package it in anticipation of a device

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not another human And and then the the debrief after that. That's what I would do. That's fantastic. That's a great idea. That kind of in institute kind of data collections side point. So something along those lines is what my doctoral student is planning to do. So I mentioned that I've got a student that's looking at this. He's doing it in relation to Linkedin. He's doing this kind of digital ethographic method. And he's actually swapping sides of the fence. So he's going

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going to be talking to people preparing, modifying their Linkedin kind of profiles, and then speaking to recruiters who are looking at them on the other side as as part of understanding the whole assemblage. That's amazing. I'll have to talk to that, too. Yes, you do. We have 2 more minutes, so maybe we can cluster some questions.

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Thank you for your presentation. My question is, your research so far, is the only focus on the demand side. And how about the supply side? Particularly over the last several months. Now we have the chat. Gpd.

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so in the future. Now you have the machine reading, you know, in the recruitment or hiring process. But in the future. There is a possibility, you know. Some people now, students use the charity to to read the paper then in the future, and it's It's quite likely some people use the red resume to apply for the jobs right? So then, what will be the future?

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perspective, you know, in terms of this new technology development. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, some people argue that eventually the job application process itself will be automated

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on the part of the applicant.

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even to the extent.

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This is very speculative, that that a kind of a digital assemblage can do, the interview on behalf of the of the person where eventually, if you train enough data on, on yourself, on your voice.

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and and so forth, that that kind of

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a digital subject can can stand in your place and do the interview for you while you're asleep.

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And so I think it's a possibility

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 could potentially afford

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potentially afford more dignity to the applicant, because at least less is being extracted of them in the moment. But it's still a scary prospect in terms of

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black boxes upon black boxes operating in that environment.

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Kathia Serrano: I'm afraid we are running out of time. Yes, thank you very much. What?

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For this really intriguing paper.

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and I have the pleasure of inviting Anika.

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Kathia Serrano: who is with us virtually.

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Annika Koch: Hello! Hi! To upload her presentation.

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Annika Koch: Hello! Welcome to my presentation. I'm happy to tell you about The results of my dissertation today. And it is also kind of

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Annika Koch: an invitation to discuss the theoretical concepts I use and to discuss in general theoretical concepts of grasping implicit knowledge in organizations.

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Annika Koch: so I would start by telling about the background of my dissertation. presenting the preliminary empirical findings and then go on to the reflections.

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Annika Koch: so in Germany, I did research in the German context. on

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Annika Koch: religious norms and holidays and schools. there's a basic contradiction between the freedom of religion which is guaranteed by the Constitution on the one hand, and the constant disadvantaging and discriminations that Muslim students face.

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Annika Koch: There's racism against Muslims quite widespread. So studies show that about 50 of the German population has racist attitudes, and, for example, perceives Islam as a threat.

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Annika Koch: and also studies on teacher habitats and teacher attitudes have shown that even though many teachers try to treat their students equally, and tried not to disadvantage them. Muslim students? They are often guided by unconscious bias. There are, of course, also those teachers who have open a bias that I think this unconscious way is more interesting because this is the teachers who actually want to do a good job.

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Annika Koch: and oftentimes They may, for instance, interpret normal behavior of their students as a threat. So, for instance.

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Annika Koch: I I I had interviews with teachers who told me of students who fasted you in Ramadan, or who wanted to stay away for for certain religious holidays and They believed that the students were doing this to disturb school life and not to just live their normal life.

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Annika Koch: and In addition to that, we have this situation that public organizations, have adapted to the secularized Christian loans and establish them. But this may lead to a disadvantage to disadvantaging people with other norms and holidays. So, for instance, as I mentioned

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Annika Koch: taking day off during religious holidays. and thereby maybe missing out an examination. this is just an obvious example. There are many more in my data. But I will stick to these. Say more. more obvious things, because we have a a shortage of time.

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Annika Koch: So building on this these problems. I I asked the research question in my dissertation, what guiding orientations do teachers develop towards Muslim religious norms and holidays?

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Annika Koch: And how are these orientations influenced by organizational aspects? And while there's already many research on the first question, the second question and the organization aspect are very little research on. And I think this is also due to some conceptual problems of grasping the issues.

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Annika Koch: And

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Annika Koch: I will tell you about these conceptual problems later on. I think it is very important also because what I noticed during my research was that many teachers really did a lot of afterwards. but due to their position in the organization, they They are at the risk of being overworked and also being frustrated. by the conflicting demands they have to deal with and these demands are also

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Annika Koch: connected to the school system.

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Annika Koch: So I want to

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Annika Koch: go into the next slide. my research is grounded in the Meta theory of practice sociology and basically, as many practice sociological theories. I assume that. people's actions are guided by implicit knowledge. that is also embodied.

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Annika Koch: following time. Man, we can also call this knowledge conjunctive knowledge and contrast it with a communicative or explicit knowledge.

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Annika Koch: Communicate with knowledge. can be communicated as as is part of the word, and it can also be expressed in theories and be be reflected on. If you want to learn about commun indicative knowledge from an interview, you can just do a content. Analysis.

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Annika Koch: conjunctive knowledge is more complicated. It is a theoretical and embodied, and it is not so easy to recognize at first side

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Annika Koch: people cannot access it, it is more I. I cannot access it in a reflective way, but it often guides their behavior. It is also a type of habitualized knowledge. referring to the concepts of you, and many researchers from the documentary method argue that these concepts are broadly equal. So it is about the dispositions, perceptions, feelings and intuitions.

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Annika Koch: it's about how you understand the word. And it's very important for teachers, because teachers have often to make a hard based decisions. So they don't have time for reflection and

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Annika Koch: they have to decide whether to give a certain student more attention, less attention, how to interpret a certain comment that a student just made by the way, and they have to decide whether a student deserves things or not.

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Annika Koch: I'm also as ha

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Annika Koch: very much engaged in moral work. So our

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Kathia Serrano: I'm afraid we can't hear Anika

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Annika Koch: habit your life knowledge and off

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Annika Koch: and So I conducted interviews with with several teachers. And I, I started as a research assistant in a larger research project funded by the Federal Ministry of Education and Research, and was called body rules the project, and out of that I developed my own dissertation thesis in which I conducted a more detailed documentary analysis of 10 interviews.

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Annika Koch: The teachers whose interviews I analyzed in detail. All work at schools with a high share of Muslim students. so Muslims for a a topic for them.

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Annika Koch: and I conducted the interview analysis, using the documentary method, which is basically based on the idea that

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Annika Koch: you can not only look at what people say, but how they say it, and in the way how people talk to you in the interview. They also perform a way of constructing their reality, and we want to grasp that way of constructing the reality and thereby finding out about their

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Annika Koch: I will show you one example of how I did this. I think I don't have time for all of them due to due to the 15 min

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Annika Koch: limit. But yeah, maybe you can get some idea of the method and also of the results. Then

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Annika Koch: so the The interview of ex-service from one of my interview partners. Mr. Viva is the pseudonym, and he was the principal and teacher of math.

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Annika Koch: He told me so. The discussion among students is problematic, because depending on which mosque the parents may go to. Actually, many don't even go to mosque depending on how the religion is left at home. So you have to do what's written in the Quran, or what you told about with what's written there. Only then can you be a good Muslim, or you say I perceive the religion. For myself. This is a subjective issue, my connection to the one out there. and

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Annika Koch: I do it the way I think is right. So I fast when I want to, and not because my classmates tell me to. I'm not a bit Muslim. I'm not a bad Muslim, because I don't fast this year, or because I don't pass for a certain exam which is important for me.

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Annika Koch: There's this discussion. It's relatively difficult to deal with it, because, of course, these conversations, whether you are good or bad, Muslim usually take place outside of class and consequences in the schoolyard. You don't even notice.

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Annika Koch: I think it's easy for us to say what Mr. Viva has speaking about. He's speaking about discussions among his students and among the different. He he repeats the different positions that there are, and says that it's difficult for him to deal with it.

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Annika Koch: But if we look at how he speaks it, we find out more interesting things. I would say so notably, Mr. We, that have framed the discussion in a confrontational way. So he named only 2 opposing posts on the one side there were the students who thought they could only be good Muslims if they did exactly what was written in the Quran, and by using the word good Muslim, he referred to a moral judgement that students put along each others.

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Annika Koch: Interestingly, Mr. Reagan did not reflect that this was a moral category, and there was a moral discourse. going on, or he did not do it explicitly, and he rather kind of engaged himself like taking part in this discussion.

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Annika Koch: and

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Annika Koch: But Mr. Vivaha said that what you I told about written there in the Quran, and thereby suggest that that the students did not really know what was written there, and that their morality was dependent on others, for example, on their families.

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Annika Koch: So dependency was also framed in a negative way. And you see that there's kind of a stereotype refer to, which is often used in the German discourse, which is associating Muslim religious practices with being dependent.

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Annika Koch: Conversely, he positively referred to or spoke about the position that adapted the religious practices to school, so he used the pronoun I when he spoke about this thing

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Annika Koch: myself subjective issue. I do the way I think I fast. He seems to identify with it, while with the other. When he spoke about the other position, he used the pronoun, You

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Annika Koch: and

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Annika Koch: He also, interestingly did not refer to students who who, both soft passing as a beneficial issue and

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Annika Koch: and were independent and faster during exams.

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Annika Koch: So there was a certain focus of his attention on this contradiction between dependency and and independency.

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Annika Koch: and This

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Annika Koch: I mentioned before that Mr. Vivaha became involved in the documentation with the student, and this is also in line with his style, like his over overall narrative style, which is an argumentative style. you could compare it to a narrations or other styles of speaking according to schizophrenia.

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Annika Koch:  and

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Annika Koch: yeah. So from this quote, you could also then derive

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Annika Koch:  derive links he made to the organizational contacts that he was working in. So He said it was difficult to deal with the students and this mean that in a certain way there was an unclear responsibility. and this is also stressed or emphasized by the location he He is,

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Annika Koch: he is. By by the way, he is locating the discussion. He says it's in the school yet not in class. It would be clear that if the discussion took place in class. Then it's

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Annika Koch: It would be a topic of his. But as it takes place in the school. Yet this is not Mr. It seems that he wants to address the discussions. And he wants to teach the students how to be independent. he refer to this

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Annika Koch: to this idea of independency and teaching the students these norms again, is again throughout the interview.

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Annika Koch: but he seems to not really find a way how and not to find his responsibility. in this.

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Annika Koch: It is interesting also that he does not.

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Annika Koch: he does not have the idea to address the topics in class, because he is kind of managing the class. so it seems that this is an unpleasant implicit expectation. and not outspoken expectation he has about his role as a teacher.

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Kathia Serrano: and they can't. I'm afraid you have to quicken a little bit the piece

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Kathia Serrano: as you are running officially out of time. 1 min left.

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Annika Koch: Okay? Great. So then I have found out about these interviews, and how then there was there was an association between moral values, identity concepts of students and ways of relating to students that the teachers shown.

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Annika Koch: And Then I tried to. make like to learn more about the organizational level. So one thing we can learn is that there's consent of knowledge developing an organization. So

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Annika Koch: teachers expect that Things are regulated by school authorities and Islamic norms are not taken into account. However, these expectations are confused. And

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Annika Koch: students make that inside. the the individual school inside this microcosm. everyone knows about Islamic rules, such as Ramadan and starts to judge each other's behavior. For instance, whether you write whether you eat and drink in front of students or not, and teachers have to integrate these ideas with their concept of identity

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Annika Koch: erez agmoni and with their way of presenting to the students this is a way of hidden of doing hidden work. So it is not accounted for. Our teachers are not trained for this, and they are also not paid for this work. 150.

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Annika Koch: This is one of the organizational references I could make. Then, also, individual teachers are made responsible for working out complex situations. And This has the risk.

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Annika Koch: that they may feel overwhelmed. They may feel attacked. but also that they reproduce and unconscious biases. They deep may devalue students religious backgrounds by, for instance, presenting them as dependent. and not adequately address the students.

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Annika Koch: and I thought about how to go

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Annika Koch: more than these results. How to go deeper into the theory and connected to a concept of organization, to maybe find out more. when I start. When I applied for this presentation. about one year ago, I thought about a new institutionalist. perspective.

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Annika Koch: that would assume that. that organizations develop collective values that become taken for granted and then provide identity scripts. for The teachers. So, for instance, the school authorities provide identity scripts that they have to grade the students and teach them norms. but then, at the organization level, this this type of institutional work

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Annika Koch: where students, and Other teachers. kind of discuss and work on these institutions. And in my case. kind of install new institutions new holidays that. Teachers then have to integrate.

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Annika Koch: And I then had the idea to draw on Bruce's concept of doxa and habitats. This was a more recent idea. I wanted to suggest 250,

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Kathia Serrano: but I don't know if I have time for this.

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Kathia Serrano: let's have a discussion. Instead. You have for 4 min discussion left. Let's let's have around and and give you feedback.

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Thank you very much. Thank you, Anna.

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Kathia Serrano: Okay, I'm sorry. I've I I had to cut short because you you still want to to hear some of the feedback. So sorry that don't worry. would you please? close your presentation so we can see the room and maybe engage with the audience.

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Kathia Serrano: both virtually and in presence. And there's some questions.

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Oh, I have a short one. Thanks, Anika. I think that is very interesting. I was wondering if a group discussion would be like an interesting methodological alternative to it, because in this case you would actually see how giving the right topic, how a teacher would negotiate processes within that group. And not only the information he gives narratively.

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Annika Koch: yeah, thank you for the question. I have done some group discussions. And

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Annika Koch: I think I'm about to have the same issues with integrating the organization and concept as well. Because then I also. And then I don't know how the individual teachers really react to these group norms.

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Okay?

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Which is.

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Kathia Serrano: yes, Leopold.

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Leopold Ringel: I was just very briefly, you're probably aware of the extensive work that you have. A title is done on

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Leopold Ringel: grading, and I think one of the key takeaways, there is that there is an implicit individualistic bias in much of the literature where you look at the individual teacher as someone who grades as an individual or as a member of a category. And what they try to do with.

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Leopold Ringel: you know, concept from the new new literature on evaluation is to contextualize grading or to see grading as a dispersed practice, where teachers continually interact with each other, with the students and the materialities and the organizational

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Leopold Ringel: context in which they're embedded. So I think this could be conceptually also a way forward to de-center the individual, or to look at how the individual grades are assembled.

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Leopold Ringel: so to speak.

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Annika Koch: Well, thank you.

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Kathia Serrano: Thank you very much. I'm afraid we have to close that session because people want to enjoy their Friday evening in Melbourne, and we still have a full day of work ahead of us. Thank you very much for joining this session for the discussion.