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Okay, welcome everybody. We start this session on Populism as the main topic which takes together the different speech. The panel will be actually chaired by

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a colleague who is actually remotely connected, but I will facilitate his work, first by reading the statement and then by

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heading the mic to him.

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So on behalf of everyone gathered. I pay respect to the spirit of the country. Here in arm where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and present a cooling nation. Bunder Jay. Why rang as the sovereign people here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the norm, aboriginal low custom and custodianship responsibilities for country

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and the people. That country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

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I recognize the important contribution that first nations thinker have made sociology, including challenges

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to our dominant way of thinking.

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We thank all the

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first people, and

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especially the delegates, eventually the delegates in the room

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and for the contribution to knowledge in the discipline. so we can. now, start with the program of this session.

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let me So basically, we are and I'm I'm saying it also for a one show before eating to you, as you can see, we have the first Speaker, which will be a pre-recorded speech.

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and then we have 3 remote speakers.

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 So without further ado, I do you want to say something about the session of the overall session before we start with the first product or the speak speech.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Oh, no, thank you, thank you for your only to say hello to

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Do, my friends, and

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: to acknowledge the possibility of being here.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: and and very happy to

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: to be able to

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: to connect him so well, yes, some. I'm happy to be here. And

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: let's start with the through conference session. Thank you.

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Ok, so we can start with the first

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point of the good morning to everyone. the minimum R. Of a hooker. So Professor Della Roberts, Sheila University. the way of the inner La Pennsylvania. I apologize. If you are in a political

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and in the the texto-programm individual.

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now that in a cover and and in Russia. for when he's talking to us.

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You can forward it in cover and the see me the

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but to one of the electromagnetic.

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because this is in in the opponents here.

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So

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yeah.

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Now, I just wanted to point out, because I guess that no one expected this to be in Spanish. So I want to apologize for those who do not speak Spanish.

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and we may try to go around the automatic translation, but we are not sure.

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But it's part of time, I mean.

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okay.

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He could.

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No, he is. he's pre recorded.

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so

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I don't want to go to that.

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I think we have to show it, but let's make it usable for most of the people, if we can otherwise

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let who know, because it is not even connected. I think

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it's a 3 recorded video.

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It was made.

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So we will serve as dentists. So he was not connected.

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He wants to see.

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Yes, yeah, let's do that. Let's do that.

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the So we are going to move to directly to the second speaker.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: I agree.

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which is in the in the zoom call.

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And just remind me how to go back to the

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okay. So I want to. please introduce the next speaker, and then you will need to ask them to share the screen in order for us and everyone to see the presentation.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Okay, I we

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor:  thank you for you. And

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: well, we apologize for the inconvenience. And Andrea, and

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: I will I I only have your your information I have in the in the screen. So

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: from the University of Italy

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: is going to present the classic, the class within civilizations, a cultural sociology of Populism.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: we have plenty of time. So no worry. Let's let's go.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Okay. You hear me.

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you to stop screen sharing.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I I start screen sharing. Now and then we switch to presentation mode. See the works. I guess you see it.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: because, given the beginning, one can.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: No, you know. Okay, so Hello, everyone. good morning. Good afternoon. Whatever depends on what part of your connecting from. I'm I'm very happy to present here. I'm not very happy of not being in Australia at the moment, but I really couldn't make it so.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the clash with I I'll try to keep the presentation as short as I can.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and I'd like to discuss with you as much as possible.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: clash within civilization is a couple of Populism. Of course the title shows on the table a few concepts, that with which the sociological audience is is acquainted and should be familiar. A cultural obviously refers to Jeffrey Alexander's work, although I want to have a special take on it and a cash within

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: also clearly and first to the famous

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: work by Samuel Constanton, which I'd like to steer in a different direction, not off but within. I I hope that

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: this intention. This theoretical potential will be will be clear at the end.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Now, okay, I'll skip this, which only shows me in A and zoom crisis while teaching students online. That was during the pandemic. So I can get this. They don't need to see this right

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Now, the project underlying this presentation is is is bigger. And I just want to outline this briefly, very briefly. Here, I'm not going to dwell on all these points. I will quickly go through points 1, 2, and 3.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I will only serve of a point 5. But the focus today is on point 4

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the proposed reconceptualization of Populism in order to drive field work which is ongoing, and I hope I have some results to share in the future, but not now

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: so. probably.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Of course, we all know. I mean the for my presentation was beginning to say. Of course it is a Populism is

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: is a concept. That's sort of the imperative to definition. So and it

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: what most authors seem to be in agreement with is not much the cognitive definition, but the normative aspect of it, that is, it is a threat to democracy. This is what most authors agree about.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Now, my question has 2 signs. One is

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: cognitive, I mean, why is this happening? How to face it is the Let's say the normative side of the sheet?

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: No.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: My point is, why is it in purpose to definition? I mean this. I should go very long through this these these points. I won't. let me just mention them quickly.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: because of these reasons. First, it is a multi-dimensional phenomenon when being a Populist, almost always means

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: to be a Nationalist or an ethnic showmanist. It often means

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the a a religious religious fundamentalist who foster or to advocate an aggressive foreign policy always or not, but not always, it depends.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Attitudes of welfare are distantly different.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: It it is a populism is often associated with neoliberalism, for example.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: which is absolutely correct in some contexts. This is awfully wrong in all the contexts, for example. and and then that goes for the other dimension. So the 1 point would be, what do these aspects have in common? Is there

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: anything like an overall, an overarching logic of Populism or not? Or is it only contingent.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: then, the concept, I mean not the cause of the phenomenon is clearly cross-cultural across civilizational for my presenter

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: was beginning to talk about Populism in Latin America, and of course it is everywhere. This, by the way, this is also something that the like present conference is all about

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: authoritarianism, which is not synonymous with Populism, but it is somewhat

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: closely associated.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Also there are thin and thick definitions.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: since same definition. By saying definition, I mean mainly procedural definitions of the phenomenon those which make populism. Something has to do with a method with some political rhetoric, a political style of communication, while all the definitions are more likely to consider Populism to be about a sh shared volume. Some shared values or attitudes, or political cultural concerns.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: that these are examples that but very quickly.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  These are famous famous works on on Populism. There's a various quality, one by noise and ingle heart, and this is an example of a thin definition, a retard of style communication, although within the same book it it it. It is claim that it then becomes dangerous when it is associated with certain authoritarian postures and attitudes

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the definition that has to do with the moral imagination of politics. I feel close to this definition by Alexander Cavisto and Shorthino. because it is more comprehensive.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and it it stands for. I don't see a neutral view, but an all embracing you. possibly good and possibly bad

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Populism depending on its politics, depending on whether it tends to mobilize communicative power and to destroy the organizational autonomy of the sales fear or the regulative institutions within the sales fair.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Now I tend to rely on this definition, I mean on this yes, on this idea. But I'd like to. I mean to bring it in a in a, in a particular direction. So

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: a few words. But this, this could be a a book. Chapter. Of course I understand this is the fallacy of the thing.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I am very critical of not all, but of many fears of Populism. For these reasons. I will basically draw on the latter, but let me just mention they are often one-sided, I mean they are at great pains

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: gaining purchase on all the dimensions involved.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: they are often modernist, evolutionist and Western-centered

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  to say it comes in the shape of frustrated losers of the modernization process is all very well. It's often correct.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: but not always, not only, and it is characterized in in in a way.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  also, some fears tend to be just.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: patronize it or dismiss it. I mean, it's a reactionary impulse or instinct

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: which may be part of the truth. Okay, but that the explanation is kind of the only psychological to me.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Let me just roll on. The latter series. Have a full at least, in my opinion, and you may disagree. They're often a subtraction store, but it's a it's an expression I clearly draw from Charles Taylor, his master, for work on a secular age book.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and here I mean applied to our phenomenon. It means that

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: many fear is tend to assume

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: that if it weren't for some contingencies like mismanagement of globalization processes or the emergence of the

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: interpret political entrepreneurs exploiting frustration. Whatever else, if you were for those contingencies, the liberal cultural program of Western modernity would only smoothly fly over

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: global skies. because it is

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the natural outcome, the natural outcome of social evolution. I don't know what the word evolution came up in it. I mean no smaller character. Sorry, and it is the good outcome of such evolution. I think subtraction stores don't

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: work so.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Well, let me skip this, I think.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Yes, you said. We have a plenty of time, but

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: but not that much. So I'd like to focus on the real core here. I was only wondering, okay, so how can we have a theory that is not conflationist, and that is not a reductionist. And it is all these things together. Okay, so this is, of course.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: that go to the core points.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I would try to propose a reconceptualization, a popular that drives my field work

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: in the first case, study, by the way, would be Italy, not because it is more important, but because I live there. That so it's a pretty good reason for me.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I'm driven by guiding assumptions I mean

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: very close to each other. these are quotes

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: from these authors.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and and I feel strongly about this. I think it is very important to to to remember the political democracy depends on

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: on mutual regard and shared solarity. Even

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: this point.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: here it says, deep antipathies, or even despite

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: diversity, which remains irreducible.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: which remains irreducible, which cannot be reduced to one.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: So the idea, the single authentic people is a fantasy is a populous fantasy.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: but it is also an anti- Populist fantasy.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: So I think I'm driven by

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: pluralist cultural assumptions. Now.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: 4 steps in the proposed reconceptualization.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: first, the kind of Populist, let me say I I I don't mean to be exclusively about the definition, but

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the kind of populism I'm more interested in is what yummat and more is called civilizational populism. It's an emergent form. I think it is the most intensive.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and arguably it became. It is even the most dangerous for

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: international and international

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: a relatively peaceful arrangement there. We know how we need it at the moment. What? What could be meant by civilization of Populism is a populism that

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: also classifies people's states, nations according to cultural differences. So in this sense it is civilization. Of course you can go through the work of these authors, which is a major work.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: My difference? I have a different taking in in that. I believe the social ontology or the ontology of civilizations and cultures should not be essentialist.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and we should focus on the relations between the different factors, the top constitutive of of those and

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: of those civilizations and countries.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  and this also goes against Huntington. because I think one of the flaws in his work was to be too much of an essentialist in considering civilizations that

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: are opposed to each other.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  so first point is, is that this is the focus of what we call civilization puzzles.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: The the. The thesis that I want to put forward is what I call this is a cultural imbalance. And it's spelled out. I mean, it's it's it's formulated here in red.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Arguably, we could say Populism. That kind of Populism at least consists of collective identities and cultural programs that are one-dimensional, which means

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: they conflate multiple dimensions of human experience.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: of the legitimation of the social order.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: They conflict them upon each other, given priority to one. Now this definition must be unpacked, of course, you know. And for doing this I draw upon

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the contribution of these authors which you see a quoted there. we try deploy for our purposes and re elaborate upon and and apply to.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: to, to, to empirical study.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Well, let's go through them a little bit in some more detail. So

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: One central point to me is Isis. The schmul is and says, notion of collective identity. This is very well known.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: as the social construction of symbolic boundaries cultural.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: It is affected through symbolic codes of distinction.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and because these codes are articulated, specified, neutral into even different ways.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: And and and this makes a difference on the kind of institutional and culture arrangements that results from this operation.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: These are, of course, carried by social groups who function as constructors, a collective identity

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and the resulting parties are closely related to the legitimation of democratic regimes and non-democratic regions as well, for that matter.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Now what these codes are, and this attracted my attention the first time I I I read it is that these codes are could be called the primordial, the civil, the sacred.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I won't go into detail. There are various

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: famous authors who articulated these codes and these distinctions before even before I,

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and they refer both to dimensions of human experience and to principles of legitimating social order.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Now the primordial, clearly refers to race and ethnicity, civic component means abiding by certain rules, accepting embrace in certain rules of collective life.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: State. That means, you know the core the symbolic core of existence. Now, example, you're a full citizen. If you belong to a certain ethnic group

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: or your system because

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: you accepted a certain not just lifestyle, but but the rules of collective coexistence, collective life. Think of the past in which, for example, Germany and France, back in all the European history struggled. I mean, mobilizing. these definitions, like, for example, some people are German because they are ethnically German. Some people are French because they accepted the Republic, and it's rules and

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: principles, a collective life. That's all European, all European history.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  all right, or your full system, because you share in a certain religious faith. For instance. Okay, there, there, there are various examples of this. But

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: now, what's the point of using or deploying this conceptual frame

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: to study populism.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: In my opinion, the point is, what we witnessed today is is very instructive. If we look at it through this lens.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: because what we see is a revival of collective identities

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: based on the prime mortal, for example, and they what, Anthony this myth used to call the revival the ethnic revival, you know, many years ago now.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: but on other principles as well. But at the point it does. I don't want to jump to the conclusion that this is the point of the the primordial is, the problem is that was much smarter, much more refined and articulate.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: when I I mean in a part of his work where he

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: studied barbarism versus civilization.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: And you argue that barbarism and we could say the barbarism associated to bad Populism for our purposes. For our present purposes.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: The bombers was in quarantine, the very cultural program of modernity. How so?

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Argument, I mean Eisenstein's argument went that the potential for barbarism depended on the transformation of that culture program

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: crystallized

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: particularly in you topic visions prevailing in mainly Europe at the time.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Now, the core point here is

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: that the central dimensions of of

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: human experience can be absolutely, I mean, collective identities can be constructed that are currently being constructed by Populist political, cultural, religious

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: media entrepreneurs

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  in ways that are mutually exclusive. I mean, one of these dimensions becomes absolutized. and this is the way collective boundaries are constructed.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Now, by the way, this happens.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: pardon me

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: 2 min, please.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Right, of course.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Oh, okay, I will skip something, but the point is so. The failure to integrate this codes in a process of collective identity building.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Right? This is a is a capital imbalance that generate which which means that not to realistic forms of identity are generated, and this happens

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: on, on, on, on the whole, specter. On the whole, you know, it spans the whole political spectrum

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the fascists, the Nationalists, the racist, but also the new Jacobins.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I found a very interesting point in Sarah and his Presidential dress. By the way when he mentioned that what he called the symbolic Liberals.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: for example.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: right? So I'll get this. But an addendum is

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: this also corresponds to concepts of collective self sacrifice. And this comes from yours work. I think this is also an important point that must be added to to the empirical study.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it:  right? Finally, let me try to to to come to the bottom line. This explains a lot.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I think the current Populist dynamics as an a liberal democratic response to I'm democratic liberalism or liberal technocracy, or some other

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: a corollary, all contemporary forms of authoritarianism and illiberal attitudes. Can

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the let's say, traced back to one big

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: social cultural trend. So this is why this also helps

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: goes straight to the idea of a a clash within civilization, which is also a a concert that I feel strongly about because it is non colonial.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I think this idea might help

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: keeping together a no relativist idea and non-relativist analysis, which is also non-colonial, which means

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the distinction doesn't run between different civilizations, but within.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: because it runs within the cultural and social dynamics where elites encountered it's mobilize different symbolical resources.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: And therefore this is the clash it you see 3 to 2 paths, collective identities and carrier groups.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: well, this is a perspective, the study and I skip it because, as I said, it is only ongoing. This threatening scheme is my last word for the moment, my hope, which means.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: And this is just the way I articulate case studies in such a way that we can keep together structure agency and culture

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: showing how they feed into each other. But that's the topic for

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: another presentation. Maybe I'll stop here a stop share. You.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Thank you. Thank you.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: And there it works. Very provoking. I I I was thinking of this implosions that now

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: we are having him

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: underseas. But also

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: I'm my!

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: This idea of fixation or solidity in

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: in societies, of this bringing us to to this sensation of clashing. but implosion from from from within, when

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: all promoted, and thank you very much for bringing to this services. I don't think

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: session is very

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: interesting presentation about boundaries and coding. and well, the the next presentation is for you.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: How much do you want to take question now? Or in the end?

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Because usually we we have.

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We took questions

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: for immediately. Okay. okay, sorry. Sorry. So yes. Please. Please help us with this.

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Let me ask the room if we have any question.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: It doesn't seem so.

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And it seems that also online. there is no question. So maybe people will think about it. And if we have time in the end we can

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do a debate on all the presentation, including the one delivered now by Andrea.

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So we can go to the next one

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and that, yeah.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: hey? what? So we have online to a

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: who is going to present by local go in mainstream.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: and it not a few of 2 cities governed by the French.

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I can you your screen?

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Felicien Faury: Yeah

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Felicien Faury: for you?

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Yeah.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: yes. perfect. Yes.

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Felicien Faury: Okay. But I, okay. hello, everyone. So can you hear me? It's okay.

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Felicien Faury: Yeah. Hello, everyone. My name is

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Felicien Faury:  I'm postdoc at the so at the University of San Anton in in France.

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Felicien Faury: so first of all. I like to apologize on behalf of my colleague. So it is. A delay was enabled to attend today's presentation the project time were to present was carried out with Eliza.

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Felicien Faury: so I'm sorry she can be with us today.

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Felicien Faury: I'm also sorry to be only remotely present. I couldn't afford to go to Australia at the end of this particularly busy year.

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Felicien Faury: And so and also right now, my Internet is like really bad, and especially the sound, is really bad for me, so I I hope there won't be a any a new program

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Felicien Faury: and I'm not at home. So right now. So I cannot fix fix it. Okay? So my presentation will focus on the local management of 2 cities governed by the French has some blemon, as you know. So

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Felicien Faury: the party led by which is one of the oldest and most central. European Populist radical rights. Parties.

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Felicien Faury: So how work aims to contribute to what some scholars have called a localist turn in the studies of the Populist radical rights? Indeed! Why, the access of the far right to government position has been much studied at the national

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Felicien Faury: or transnational level.

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Felicien Faury: The sub national level is still under study.

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Felicien Faury: so our research project intends to contribute to feel this subnational gap by focusing on the French case

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Felicien Faury: ere

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Felicien Faury: also called in France. So the demonization strategy, the demonization strategy. This party has never come to power at national level.

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Felicien Faury: but at the local level the Rasamlom National did come to power during the municipal elections to local elections in 2,014 the Aaron won 12 municipalities, one

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Felicien Faury: and then 14 municipalities in 2,020.

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Felicien Faury: So for this parties this is one of the most significant achievements in France in terms of local consolidation on local access to the mainstream.

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Felicien Faury: But few scholars have investigated the context and dynamic of these victories and few app studies the concrete management of local power by the French National.

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Felicien Faury: please the questions we'd like to address how? The following. So I put some some, yeah, some research questions. How did the party manage to access the local government level

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for those access to local power influence party strategies and styles of governments.

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Felicien Faury: Those access to local power bring about a de-radicalization on the core issues that link the party to the upr one.

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Felicien Faury: Okay, so now a few world on a research on methodology, all fee well to play took place in the Pakka region. So Provence alcohol in French Paka region, which is the region where the Ern has been established for the longest, and has achieved some of its best electoral results.

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Felicien Faury: So we studied 2 cities, 2 towns called, but with the pseudonym of Middleton and Little town

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Felicien Faury: because of their respectable respective size.

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Felicien Faury: So I run 60,000 inhabitants for Middle John, and 20 first done for little Tom

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Felicien Faury: and Middleton, and leave little town, are governed by the parties by the Aaron from 2,014 until now.

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Felicien Faury: we investigated these 2 cities during civil several months, so spend on site

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Felicien Faury: respect to be 6 months in Middle John and 15 months in a little town.

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Felicien Faury: and we made ethnographic observation of the local political and party life.

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Felicien Faury: and we conducted 42 interviews with members of the Iran municipal team and grassroots, party activists and 30 with the main openance. So both elected in the municipality and all active in civil society.

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Felicien Faury: in house. Today, we combine So emission and comparison with the use of ethnography. in 2 different cities, even if ethnographic methods are still little used in the In political science, we argue that ethnography can be extremely useful for studying pr parties, especially at the local level.

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Felicien Faury: to which gives us a more balanced view of the political situation in these 2 Cds.

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Felicien Faury: okay, so turning now to our main findings.

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Felicien Faury: so first taking the power in later town as well as in Middletown. the has some as benefited from the same political opportunity structure. At the local level. In each city the 2 far right mayors were elected, due to a combination of circumstances with background was corruption clear on terrorism, and the weakening of the local traditional rights.

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Felicien Faury: So, first, the previous mayors affiliated to the mainstream. Right where the subjects of widespread accusations of clonalism and Corruption!

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Felicien Faury: And so on. In each city the mainstream right was deeply divided and ran for local election with 2 separate lists, which was very beneficial to the Hassanloma National.

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Felicien Faury: so fragmentation of the traditional light.

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Felicien Faury: So it it should be noted that the 2 mayors in 2,014 were elected like by chance or by accidents, as declared by many interviewers.

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Felicien Faury: Okay. So

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Felicien Faury: so they were elected by accidents or by chance, but once in power. So the a. And Myers consolidate their positions, and they try to mainstream their position by officially keeping their distance to far right labels and far right ideology.

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Felicien Faury: In the 2 cities each mayor plays the card of the good guy so near to the inhabitants everyday needs managing the city as a good family man, so on bombard the family in France.

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Felicien Faury: focusing on infrastructure works, financial efficiency, the beautification of the city, and so on.

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Felicien Faury: So this celebration of proximity and locality is presented as technical and apolitical, so as non ideological.

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Felicien Faury: And as you can read as to me, chief of the Mayor's cabinet in Middleton says it's all about common sense.

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Felicien Faury: not about less.

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Felicien Faury: No right politics.

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Felicien Faury: So zit, because, what some researchers have called techno-work populism or Populist pragmatism.

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however

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Felicien Faury: limiting our analyzes. To this the ideolog of the ideologized aspect in A and local governments would give an incomplete picture of it. We argue that the local process of mainstreaming has not resulted in the disappearance of the the core. Ideological traits of pr parties, such as the

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Felicien Faury: and so has our feedback analysis shows issue that characterized marine Le Pen's party as a distinctively Pr. Our political formation.

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Felicien Faury: So, for instance, nativism and law and orders. Policies are still central in the local management of

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Felicien Faury: so first in in a low and order policies. So first in in both Milton and later on security has been established as a priority issue in the mayor's mandates, one

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Felicien Faury: in both cities, investments in a public security and policing, so hiring a new police officer purchasing new equipment, renewing police vehicles, and so on.

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Felicien Faury: was one of the first decisions of both mayors. Once they took office.

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Felicien Faury: also all the radical right features appear in a and local management. So, for instance, in Middleton the local governments is characterized by a strong control over the local associative network, one.

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Felicien Faury: So with financial cats, to associations perceived as a style with denial of municipal spaces, and so on.

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Felicien Faury: And the Aaron also implemented an aggressive politics of social cats, especially in neighborhoods characterized by such social fragility and ethnic segregation.

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Felicien Faury: So in Little Town

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Felicien Faury: the Mayor's power is much more limited because the city is smaller.

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Felicien Faury: Nevertheless, at number fees show that in interaction with citizens the mayor's sense, I do look ideological signs of recognition to its core electorate. For example, I've attended neighborhoods meetings

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Felicien Faury: where the Mayo has spoken and for instance, emailed like Islamophobic jokes in front of the audience. So whole people were white and making the whole audience a.

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Felicien Faury: And so this example of a coded ratio appears.

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Anything that anecdotal particularly at the local level.

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Felicien Faury: Such discrete ideological appears at the advantage to of reassuring the local core electorate

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Felicien Faury: without being too visible in the party's official communication.

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Felicien Faury: Okay, I now like to make maybe a few

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Felicien Faury: concluding remarks.

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Yeah.

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Felicien Faury: So to to to some of how work shows that in the 2 cities studied. The party has deployed a mainstreaming strategy

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Felicien Faury: with a strong and faces on technicality and on pragmatism

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Felicien Faury: articulated to a common sense, rhetoric of proximity and political neutrality

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Felicien Faury: in errands cave this rhetoric of technicalization and the ideologically Jay sensory of local policies is part of the so-called de-demonization strategy

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Felicien Faury: to a distance itself from the radical rights stigma, and to overcome the traditional cordon sanitar that has prevented the from accessing the mainstream.

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Felicien Faury: But the fact is that, despite the parties and faces on non ideological localism. the core. I do. Ideological features that define radical right parties have not disappeared.

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So secure as I said, security has been made a priority issue on the Evan mandate and implemented with a typically repressive approach.

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Felicien Faury: And all field work also reveals that anti-prise attitude are still at work.

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Felicien Faury: And while nationalism, we welfare, communism, and nativism are now less visible in the party's public communication.

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Felicien Faury: our research on our ethnographic research highlights, how some political decisions have races or racial implications among the population.

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Felicien Faury: So these policies are accompanied by enough for the narratives that are less obvious, but still present

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Felicien Faury: activated only for receptive audiences.

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Felicien Faury: So even at the local level, radical right ideology is still at work. But as what we call an adaptable ideology

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Felicien Faury: selectively enacted with when the circumstances and audiences are favorable.

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Felicien Faury: Allowing the party to first reassure the internal partisan community

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Felicien Faury: a second extent, and deepen the control of the local context and third implements, law and order and chauvinistic policies without incurring in in social and megatic blame.

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Felicien Faury: And yeah, thank you for listening. And again, this project was carried out with any.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: we are super cool. Thank you.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor:  I I don't know if

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: we have a line or on session to

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: questions here, so we can move to the next.

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I I just can't tell you that after a middle tone, maybe I have a country you can visit for your next

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place that you want to study. Yeah, thanks for the advice.

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Do we have the next presenter in the room?

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And the same. So from the name.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: It seems

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she is hiding

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: that

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: we only have 2 presenters today.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: It seems to me so. If if she's not a at the room we might go to the directly to the questions and discussion.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: I don't know. What do you think? 5, you

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yeah. Good idea.

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So

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if you guys have questions for the presenters. It's now the time

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for the Q. And a.

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Actually, I have a question for Felician. If no one else has, there is a question there.

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this one. as you prefer. You can come here if you want to be seen. Otherwise. I don't think I can use this one right? Yeah, absolutely. And this.

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yeah, yeah, they can.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: It is difficult to hear from here. So so it will be great to have him closer to the computer piece.

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So thank you. Hi! Once again. My name is Irek Sadowski. I'm from the Polish Academy of Sciences.

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and I have a question to. And

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Macarini, it involves your approach to the definition of populistic

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parties.

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it's interesting that in your approach anti elitist

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Dimension place.

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it seems to me a minor role. Well, in many other approaches. It is the mine, the

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the criteria for

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for pointing to indicating some

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Populist ideologies. So I was wondering what's what is the reasons that you seem to put the anti-semitism in a minor role. Thank you.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Why not?

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Yeah. I think so so fast. thank you for your question. Well, actually, it's not that I I mean, I still regard the Antiochus element as a as a crucial defining element. The point is that that's his tragedy. That's a political strategy.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: which always revolves around themes of protest. Hmm! Themes of protests are always there, and they are themselves codified.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: they are themselves part of a symbolic code. There's always the code, Alexander would say of purity versus impurity, a civil and civil that remains there. It's not that I don't consider it to be important. I do. My point is just

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I wanted to focus on the cultural content

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: on the civilization or cultural content, on the symbolic factors that make the collective identities constructed different. they made them more or less exclusionary. because once you are an anti-litist, you, you can still play your anti elitism and your protests in very different ways.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and construct the boundaries of the new pure identities, the binary codes. pure and pure in different ways, that maybe inclusive or exclusive, they may be authoritarian or democratic.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and so on. So forth. Therefore

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: my point was to to leave the anti lettuce factor out of my own focus. Assuming it is there. My point was just what makes the cultural contents interesting and their mutual combination, their combinatorial games. interesting for making Populism what it is and for making it more or less.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: let's say, dangerous for democracy. If you want to assume this kind of definition, so I hope I clarify myself. But thank you, because you give me the opportunity to butterfly this.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Thank you.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: I was wondering about this. polarization I based on this

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: ideas of purity as you mentioned, and there but. for example, now that we are

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: a present in the riots in in in France. Do you think that? somehow.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor:  this a notion of national identities and North African

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: French people. do you think? how? How do you think it works with the with the, with the point? 2%? If

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: that it's not, the microphone is not on.

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Felicien Faury: Yeah. So I I'm not sure I I already

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Felicien Faury: the combination of identities of the presentation of

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Algerian French people as a different or other

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: in front of this.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: what? What do you think? How? How does it work for you in front of you?

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Felicien Faury: Yeah, I I absolutely. So the the issue of immigration and and the the presence of Islam is a very, a strong and salient issue, especially in the South east of France. So where? The the how I know where Fe took place.

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Felicien Faury: And so the thing is that within it's the demonization strategy, the

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Felicien Faury: cannot. So it's it's a far right party, but he a far right party that try to mainstream itself. So the the the political mayors, they cannot like be so explicit about this class clash of civilization as A as I'm here, or to the the. They cannot like express explicit racism or Islamophobia.

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Felicien Faury: So as we we can. We can see, in our ethnography that it's in the of official communication. They just speak on like insecurity, or they they they try to make like some social cuts, but only in the name of financial efficiency. But it's only when they have, like

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Felicien Faury: the direction with citizens that's here. They they can like express racism against like a North American North African migrants. And so Muslims.

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Felicien Faury: And so I think that this is the the. This is why it is useful because we can go like behind the official communication and follow the the local politicians. We during their interaction with it with the the citizens.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: I hope it's a it's a clear answer. And so, yeah, so you can hear me. Right? Thank you. Yes.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: yes, so I don't know if someone is that a decision for you?

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Yeah, I wanted to say to ask something to Felician. I think it's the first time I saw study which uses ethnography, for

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in the in this logic.

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I was wondering about your experience as a researchers. If you if you can tell us something about

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and how the process work. And how did you did you approach it? A design of this time? How did you present it yourself? And so on.

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Felicien Faury: Yeah, yeah, thank you for the the question. So basically, we spent like months on site.

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Felicien Faury: And so we

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Felicien Faury: with Eliza. So it's it. It was like 2 independence ethnographic research. So with Ediza. And then during a congress, we we we met each other. So we say, Oh, maybe we can do something to to together. But the yeah.

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Felicien Faury: But but the the good thing is that we we share like a common epistemology and a common yeah, we we we. We both agree that ethnography can be very useful to study like pr parties. So basically, we spend like month on side. And we talk to to to people. And so

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Felicien Faury: we we tried to to to follow the local politicians during the main events like the local events. So it was a easier to to to first observe the different a local politicians. And then we made like some interviews to. I think it's it's a good thing to

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Felicien Faury: to combine ethnographic observations with interviews we can, you can ask like more precise questions, those The the discourse is more controlled during an interview. but it's it's it's more yeah, it it can be a convenient to combine the the 2.

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Felicien Faury: And yeah, I think the the the key, the crucial point, is to spend a long time like on site, because it's it's it's you can be very reactive to all the local events. For instance, in in French we have the 150

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Felicien Faury: Yellow Jackets movements, and so he E. There's a lot of debates during this period, at that time in the in the city where I I live, and so I can. I I I I was able to be very active to this moon and to the movement because I was on on site. Yeah. So it's just one example.

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And just just to clarify. Neither you nor Eliza were originally from

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little town or middle Town, or or did you?

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Felicien Faury: No, no, no, we we are not so originally for this, and I think this is a very important point, because I didn't want to be in my city because I You can be like, identify as someone like. I don't know some

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Felicien Faury: leftist Guy, but I didn't want to be like identified like that. So, and it was the same for Eliza. So I think it's it's maybe a a better id to be in a more neutral feed work. yeah, but I don't know but way it it. It was not my, my, my

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thanks.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: I'm combining ideas. And and and I I was thinking about the fixation on this the stereotyping. No, I I I don't know.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Yeah. Are you minding you have something to say about this because of the

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: there?

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Well, this because of this presentation you have about the boundaries and

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: how we we construct the the. For instance. I I don't know if if you want to say something about the last presentation.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: well, yeah, I mean, I don't

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: first of all, thank you and it and it is indeed interesting. Now, of course, I'm sorry I didn't know the local situation well enough to be able to

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: to make further comments about the the dynamics and everything it it it it seems to me that the things you were saying are quite fitting in with what I was saying, that that's my impression.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Let me, if I may, what 1 min only I I don't want, and please stop me if I go further from your The the thing that fascinated me I started from Alexander's binaries, you know, civil and civil, you know. That's a very well known theoretical frame, but I thought we needed. I thought I needed something more about cultural contents that I mean about how this binaries are articulated.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and that would make a difference. Now, if we allow for 30 s of history, of sociology.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: the context in which Eisenstadt spoke about barbarism and civility is impressive. It was 1,996. It was a meeting of the German Sociological Association in Germany.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and a Jew is instead.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and needed to speak about barbarism. What? What should he say? That barbarism is about the primordial? I mean that that would be the first, you know. Spontaneous move.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: But he didn't, and that was interesting to me, because he, he, you know, came up with that more blended and complex construction that made me think

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: about a way to theorize about to.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: you know, the the symbolic content I collect to addend is that could be non-colonial  no reductionist.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: no relativist. At the same time, but also realistic. I mean accepting that there are impulses towards including primordial elements in collective identity anywhere in the world.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: but that they are civil or and civil, depending on the cultural blend that is created.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and that was very helpful for me. At least, I mean from is in. I I don't know if I come up with some empirical results at all with noting, hey? We will see But then what? That's what I wanted to say, I mean, if we're realistic enough, we can accept that. Things are mixed.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: there's never purity

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: but the but at the same time that that. You know this is what makes a difference.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: because I and also it helps

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: trace

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: many different like. I remember. Sorry enough, his presidential address about cancel culture. For example, it helps draw, I mean, trace various illiberal attitudes to

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: one social cultural trend, and that's also fascinating, maybe to abstract. I don't know but we'll we'll we'll see. And I think your presentation was was aptly

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: presenting something that's happening in at local level. That is quite fitting that, of course, racist

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: discourses can be more or less explicit as you, as you mentioned that they can be jokes. It could be a a charge of jokes. I think it would be very interesting.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: you know what jokes are accepted or rejected in a certain context. Of course, that's that's by the now but but they still racist, of course. So it it's

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Well, bye, stop.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Yeah, great, great! And very well I I'm I'm sure the family is thinking about that, how we

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: a lie ourselves with fake the inputs to to make this possible, to to make possible the lie of thinking that something is pure

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: or fix it. Okay, well. I give you the voice for you, I think.

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yeah. And I'm just checking one last time if anyone else wants to. Yeah, there is a question.

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and a

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colleague is, I think it's not properly working that. So if you can come here.

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Hi, Nicola Rodsky from the University. Of. Also I have a question to Andre

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from what I understood when you talked about reconceptualizing populism, it was not just the the right wing variety that populism in general.

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and then what you linked Populism and the splash of civilizations with

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the this construction of one-dimensional or non-pluralist identities.

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and it seemed to me that it's quite a fair description.

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When it comes to writing population about, how would you conceptualize left-wing populism in in this framework? You proposed. That is my question.

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Thank you.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Thank you.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Well, and what will be a long, long talk a long story short.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: let's say I I I think, within this framework.  but the the logic, the rational, is always

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: that one of these

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Isis that believes in its capable dimensions of human experience

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: all conflicted on each other. One of these, or some of these, are erased

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: The the whole point of this is to allow human experience

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: to be plural

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and multi-dimensional, multi-raising dimensions. This is the whole point of the of the of is this theory, as well as of my own re elaboration for these purposes.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: So for example, Eisenhower noted that in some modern, some branches of the modern cultural program the sacred was was eliminated.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: in some others it is the primordial which was eliminated, and then came back as a backlash

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: as a cultural backlash.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: so I I think this could be. This could be the key to understanding. But then, of course, there are empirical examples that they might. I made the example of Council culture. and there are some

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: particularities of the cultures of.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: say example, some historical characters famous. Well, say when they let's pick an example. you know, Winston Churchill.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I don't mean you know him personally, of course, but that you know who is and for

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: oh, you never know but I mean, think of you know the people who and the polemic I mean the conflict that arose when he was regarded as a racist, etc., etc. Now, This means he raising some parts of historical identities that were, I mean that that they were part

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: of that history at that time. Council culture does the same in many different respects. I don't know if this is left doing Populism. I I well, I'm not much concerned actually about it being left or right. I'm concerned about what is

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: liberal or illiberal, authoritarian versus democratic wherever it comes from.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: so I hope I have responded in terms of

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: what dimensions you allowed to

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: to develop, to be developed in the collective identities that are accepted as legitimate.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: and sometimes it could be the sacred that is left out, or okay, otherwise

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: examples could be made other example. Well, if they come to mind. But I I would guess it would be too long, and I hope that.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Thank you. Thank you is yeah.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: How are you?

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It's since that. judging from the hands, rise that we can wrap up the session for now. And it seems that also online, I can't see

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additional question. So we can actually wrap up and

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invite everyone to

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to take part to the next session, which will be the first part of this 2 session for a magic thing that happened in the

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in the calendar of the of the event.

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which will be at 25. So the good news for everyone in this room and at home is that we have some free time to enjoy, relax.

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and we can reconvene at 25 for those who are here in the same room.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: So, you guys, thanks. I. I may apologize, but this is the good news, the bad music. I didn't expect it, so I'm not sure I can reconvene with you. This is the.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: I'm sorry I I won't try it again. I'll try if I can.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: It was a great session I went to to to Greece.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Maybe it can be like. Say. thank you for your comments, and thank you, for

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: they are full of talk for thought, for us, for for everybody.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: and we're for Mexico City.

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: Good night. I I have to rest what I hope we can meet

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Juan Carlos Barrón Pastor: at some point of the world.

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andrea.maccarini@unipd.it: Yeah, hopefully, hopefully, thank you. And