WEBVTT

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So thank you very much for coming today. On the very last day of the conference

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I'm to my presentation, and I'm presented today on the how of also my colleague and friend, Dr. Fonerman and Thelivia Samas. He's based in Sheffield from University, in

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United Kingdom. I'm currently based at Sanchez-martinez's terrified sciences in Austria.

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So we have done the research on the which we call broken mirrors and fake news. The Russian authority

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from the Spiegel, and

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we analyze the big r hive of their speakers. And actually

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I'm not sure if everybody knows it. But it's Germany we can magazine that's been published from starting from 1,947, and it was published firstly by a British army officer, and it was sponsored by the British occupational administration.

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It's one of the largest magazines in the whole Europe, and one of the most influential. It's a little bit younger than Washington Post. I think it's like exactly 70 years younger.

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but in Europe it's like it's a big and influential magazine. It's very known for quality of. It's an investigative journalism at forevering corruption, political misconduct and viral scandals.

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and it also has a big number of pack checkers that are full-time employed at the magazine. So it's known for its quality, and it's very known for.

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It's authority.

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I will say, like this. So this is why it was the choice

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a couple of words about this authoritarian brain. Because this is not you so much

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when journals and scholarship are talking about Russia or about the Soviet Union, so nowadays it was called terrorist State. It was. or utilitarian. It was also compared to North Korea. It was compared to other dictatorship, also African dictators.

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so academically to ensure. There is a big range of concepts in the French

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names for the state of democracy. So it was called a liberal, defective democracy, uncertain in the Russian speaking

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Academia. It's mostly hybrid. For the last 2025 years. I'm also just called, say, the democracy

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in relation to the stone term autocratic. There is also a representation of the strong and literature obvious sanformation autocracy lecture our territories, neo-authoritarian, authoritarian simply

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And so on.

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So we were interested. How actually, dashpiggle from all the a half. And I have amazing digital. that starts from actually in 1947 and goes through the very

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day of today. And it's all digitalized. And it's all available online. So we are interested in how they approach this frame of authoritarian state in relation to Russian Federation or in relation to the Soviet Union.

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we search for a rhetorical expression on topics. And our toolkit was we, we, we, we we wrote a python script that automatically scraped the data from their web page because it's all available on the web page. As a plain text.

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we also used the computer enabled linguistic analysis in this case. Lda topic, model and analysis and combined with some qualitative analysis. So Lda is legend delivered allocation.

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And it's basically a technique

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to extract topics from a given corpus of text.

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It's not the first time we have used this method, but

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it's the first time we use it in relation to German texts

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and as deaf as a German mathematician. I think it was kind of destined to try it at some point.

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So today is

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technique. It imagines a fixed

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set of topics, and then each topic is represented with a set of words.

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and the goal of your day analysis is to map

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all the documents to the topics in a way that the words in each documents are mostly captured by all these imaginary topics.

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and Oj. Does not tell us anything about the topics by themselves, but mostly they're showing us the distribution of words contained with them.

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so probability of each word in the the whole purpose of the documents

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to be appearing in the topic.

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So here is the following key words. So in German, it's Russia, Ussr, Kremlin, Moscow, Soviet Union, and different iterations of that of these words, we downloaded 30,000 articles.

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Between the years 1,940! Actually it should be 47, 2,023. And we looked at the timeline. We looked at the sections where the article belonged. We looked also interested in the free words before and after the keyword that they gave. We also looked at the word count, but because there were so many articles, and there were so many

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differentiation and the length it doesn't really give any interesting results.

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Oh, sorry. Sorry, thank you, because I was on my computer. Thank you very much.

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So these were the key words.

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again the after a few 1,000 articles.

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and here you can see the timeline and the number of the articles per year, so you can see a certain certain peaks that happened on the X-axis. There is the year on the Epsilon axis. There is the number of articles.

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and so you can see a certain pigs, and some of them are quite obvious. So the first little peak is around

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death of Stalin, the second in the Seventys, in the Seventys. I'm actually not sure, because there are several events so so big, comparative. For example, Olympics of the Eightys

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Then there is obviously the failure of Soviet Union, the collapse.

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then Chechen, of war.

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and then closer to the 20 first century.

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So here we have looked at the sections, and mostly

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the majority of articles fell under the politics and the politics category, but also international economics. But you can see that sport, culture and science, for example, had also a lot of articles about Russian or Soviet Union.

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here the word count.

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all said, yeah. There are so many articles and so many diverse lengths of the articles

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in the panorama section. For example, there are very long articles.

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So here, yeah, this is the

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the word count.

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And

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and you can see, for example, in the very, very beginning there are very, very short articles, and then in panorama there are some super long articles.

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here is a word cloud that's just automatically generated from all the words that are in 40,000 articles.

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yeah, it's if anybody speaks to German, you can see that there was like Zai. And it's very specific. It's it's just.

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There are many verbs that are not

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occur in any meanings. They are just grammatical constructions.

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but that's interesting, that, for example.

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their words, like Poland.

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power. West 14.

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But it's actually not so much you can find putin in most foul in the last.

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It's not not such a big word.

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So, coming to the topics. This, as I said, these are automatically generated topics.

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as you can see from the graph that are like free 1, 2, and 3. There are big topics that are kind of separated from others, and in the middle they are more mixed

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topics that were identified by the analysis.

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and they have many crossings between themselves.

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and it also was kind of hard to

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label these topics because they have a mixture of everything. And it's again, it's like the whole span of time. That's from 1,947 to till the day to day.

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So we also probably need to think how to

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cut the very last 2 years, because it's like overpopulating the sample with

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Ukrainian topic.

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So yeah, the first topic we called American. And here you can see that these words were appearing a lot together.

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Obviously, that's about the Cuban crisis. There was about food shortage.

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also. Germany and Berlin come a lot in many different topics, because it's the German.

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a magazine. The second topic you can see. It's mostly about Ukraine and war. So the the surname Zalenski. All the locations in Ukraine, your son Kiev.

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The words like war, and killed, and troops and army all are coming from all up

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to be met here. The first topic. It should be sorry called you and

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China.

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There is also about a lot about china picking mal rockets. Also. Poland comes a lot here in this subset

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also. Not only

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was met in this topic so automatically allocated to this topic.

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and then in the middle, we have obviously the topic that encompasses the Chechnya war, so grossen, and troops and war again appearing here.

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And this topic, for example, was about sports. It was also

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quite a big topic here, and it's about tennis, football, Marathon, all the Olympics, a lot of surnames of the sportsman's perfect. I'm coming towards that.

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So we also looked at the rhetoric expressions

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erez agmoni, and we went by decades. So we extracted the sample of articles representative for a decade. So I think it was about 100 articles per decade. We're still going through them. It's very much everything. 150

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work in progress.

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But there are interesting traits that we have seen.

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For example, obviously, after 1,995, actually after 1,985 already.

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there was a lot of talk about new future, about this new course in Russia, about Monterey's liberal course, a lot of expectations of democratization.

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 However, the democracy was called chaotic, and Duma. The the Parliament was described. It amateur tatter.

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A lot of talk about Federalism is Israeli working in Russia about freedom of speech, freedom of media

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and actually, and

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a couple of articles underland. It actually is not ready for democracy, for example, but a lot of space to discuss the freedom of media, which probably was present during this time

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Russia was also called weak

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during these decades, as compared to other decades, as we would see. So, for example, this phrase compensating for inner weakness with outward current diosity.

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So in decades before that there was a lot of comparison and a lot of like juxtaposition of Western World and Soviet Union.

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I figured I was talking about conservative Russian communism, but also a lot about Russian influence to other

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to other countries in the world, and it was

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also of about control of the public life and and a private life.

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However, during this decade

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it was more about world power. It was about

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again the most powerful Communist state in the world about its influence. Again, compared to the last decade, when a lot about weakness of the State

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was written, and again about bipolar award and in relation

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to us A and China against.

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So it's Union.

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 Russia was also called the friend of colonial people. And

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again, the control of all the spheres.

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A lot about possible.

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Yeah, a lot about rockets and bombs and small.

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So this is very interesting graph, I think, because I started with this authoritarian frame, and how present it is

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in the rhetoric of Spiegel, and not much so. Russia was

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associated with authoritarian state in almost like 6% of the articles. Democracy.

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But, as we remember, like weak democracy, are not ready for democracy. But the War democracy appeared near the Port Russia. The key word Russia.

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In 24% of cases. Totalitarian, a little bit. a lot of Communism dictatorship.

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this is my last slide. So do my topics change by decade. Surely they change, and as we have seen it like a lot Speaker writes a lot about international politics

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and

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clearly depending on the context. Topics were changing keywords.

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Clearly, yes, we're changing. But as by design, we took specific cures and we're looking for them.

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However. independent of the context. Russia

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intended to be associated with the same set of words

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which tells us about a recurrence around the presentations. Representations of Russia, and also about stereotypes, stereotypes, and wording the stick on the countries.

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And that's all for me. Thank you very much for your attention.

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All right? So this is kind of exploratory survey work with students. So it's convenient samples.

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The theorizing behind this project is the idea that

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Americans, the Us. Population is a little more enamored with, or accepting of, Imperialism, Us. Imperialism than

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The Us. Population would like to acknowledge.

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and that a lot of that acceptance, and being enamored or being enthusiastic even about us. Aggression and imperialism

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is driven by authoritarianism. The idea here is that.

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the the tendency to follow the leader, the tendency to

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join in aggression against out groups.

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the tangency tendency to conventionalism which I just listed, the 3 I. The 3

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constituents of authoritarianism, that those things in people's minds are

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enormously assist the Us. State and corporate sector and elites in having a very imperial policies and actions.

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so

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I'm Josh Klein, my colleague Dan is can be here today, and the remaining list. There are students who helped us with this, and none of them can be here. So it's just me. So, anyway, I look forward to some thoughts. But again, this is a kind of preliminary.

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so the the, the

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the public opinion. Literature is rather clear.

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and I'd say, going back to half century or more, that we have data on foreign policy attitudes. that the American people are ambivalent or contradictory. On the one hand, you can almost always find

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majority support for diplomacy, for fairness, for getting along with other countries, cooperative, a cooperative stance. These are the other countries, but at the same time you can often or always find support for what I would call Imperial policies. The Us. Should be the strongest country we should increase military spending, despite the fact that us military spending far outweighs other countries

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acceptance of the Us. Having a lot, you know military bases around the world. And such.

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So one problem for this

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project.

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And this is a part of a book I'm working on

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is that I think the biggest challenge to my argument is that

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the Us. Empire is pretty much invisible in within the Us. Right? So how can you say people are even pro-imperial in any

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subtle way. If they don't even know there is one. There is a Us. Empire

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which I think is

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true and not true, that is to say, yes. A major way. Imperialism in the Us. Is legitimated is by making it invisible.

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But I think and this is where I get the authoritarianism comes in.

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We think that

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obedience, conventionalism following the herd, following leaders, is

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keeping people

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supportive, however passively, of of imperialism. and that they know better in a funny way. I'm

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 okay. that is, people are aware in some unconscious way that there are double standards here.

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I don't do it here. But I I created a survey question. It's a bit clumsy, but what I tried to do is ask students.

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I asked students what they thought the Us. Should do. If China was intervening in Mexico, I was trying to reverse the Ukraine situation.

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and a surprising number said we should take military action, or we should threaten nuclear war. In other words, what I'm pointing at is, I think, that there is a dim awareness in people, a lot of people of the double standards

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right? That that if another country in the world said, We're, we're the best country in the world, Americans would take offense right? So. In other words, I think there's got to be some subconscious awareness that there's a problem here that there's a hypocrisy. And

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and the Us. Role is problematic. But anyway, that's getting a little far afield, for right now, I'm just trying to explain the theory here behind this.

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So yes, the Empire Empire is invisible, but it's also legitimated at the same time by being described as you know, the Us. Is the world's police police person for democracy. Right? The us is a blundering giant doing good in the world, and so on. so again, we think that authoritarianism contributes to people's acceptance or enthusiasm for empire.

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 okay?

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And then just quickly, some of the horror and destructiveness and harm of us. Imperialism. Just a handful of.

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you know concerning indications of of what us imperialism is about.

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We have certainly a kind of imperial nationalism in our culture. And again, if I so I'm thinking of my students. I I teach? You know New York City.

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When I used the word Imperialism to describe us, the Us.

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I am sure

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8 out of 10 of them can't even hear the thought. When I first say it. They don't even realize I'm describing the United States this. So not not in their minds. The us has a massive, disproportionate amount of military spending. We have a

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transnational corporate agenda driving. All of this. A horrifying figure that I came across recently is. A report was done on direct and indirect deaths of

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us-driven wars in the 20 first century, and it's at least 4.5 million people so. And then one scholar describes the post

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9, 11

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world, a Us. Role as a global police state. He's not thinking just of the Us. But that's obviously a in large measure us driven. So there's there is. The point here is that there is an imperialism to talk about. But again.

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part of our our point is that it's this stuff is invisible and unknown to most people in the United States.

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So the idea here is that we're deliberately echoing Wilhelm Reich's mass psychology of fascism.

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The idea here is that there is a mass psychology of imperialism. and

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we're not saying there are plenty of scholars who would say that the public drives policy right? So

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in public opinion, research, and political science, and some sociology.

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there is debate about whether the public drives policy or the policy drives the public, that is, to elites manipulate the public. I'm on the side of the ladder, I think, with domhoff and a few others that there's much more manipulation than we acknowledge.

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But in any case we're not saying that the public's enthusiasm or acceptance of imperialism is the reason. There is imperialism absolutely not saying that we're saying that the propaganda system, the ideology promotes this people. are or grow up with it. It's normalized, and they become enablers, as I think, the best term here.

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But again, not not culpable.

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So again, in surveys you can find

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sometimes small minority support, sometimes larger minority support for pretty obviously aggressive policies. Right? again, you know, the Us. Should be the strongest country. We have a right to intervene elsewhere. Things like that.

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But then most Americans tend in most foreign policy. Attitude surveys to be more dovish or or diplomatic oriented actually, than the people that drive foreign policy.

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But I'm we're arguing here that this is passive support, the fact that people don't think about it, that the idea that the Us. Could be

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have agendas other than promoting democracy, freedom and happiness around the world is just unthinkable to many people ends up functioning to support us policies.

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So this this surveys here we're done in 4 waves, totaling 300 students. And what we're looking at here is again support for our aggressive foreign policy, or hawkish foreign policy.

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And we're looking at does that seem to correlate with a measure of authoritarianism? We were happy to find a recent article that suggests using a 6 item authoritarianism measure. If I have anyone here who has looked at the authoritarianism, survey research literature.

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the authoritarianism measures often have 30 items and more items, anyway. So this is a very small 6 questions used together to measure imperialism.

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And then.

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when I say, limit a student's acknowledgment of us imperialism. What we did is create a list of survey questions that were about objective facts about us, imperialism

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and the question for each one was, How true or false. Is this so you'll you'll see what I mean. But basically we're saying this happened. Do you believe it

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right? And the question is, how does does willingness to believe a

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example of us harm. Correlate with how authoritarian you are.

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So

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there were 7 items like this, and we're calling it a little clumsy, but an imperial disbelief, index or belief index, if you will.

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and again so higher on the index means respondents

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were saying it was false, right? So

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the the higher measure on that index is people saying, I don't believe you. This terrible thing you're telling me about the United States like one of them is.

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Do you believe that the Us. Saturated Vietnam with herbicides in the Vietnam war, right things that could be considered illegal or harmful, or or disproportionate harm right?

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And then the authoritarianism measure. I don't have it here, but it's pretty

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standard. One of the items agree. They all agree. Disagree on. I think a 7 point scale or 9 point scale, I forget. But you know, do do we need a fearless leader, a strong leader, to deal with troublemakers?

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Things like that. And so when we put the 6 items together, we measure people on on authoritarianism with the 6 item measure, and then measure people on this 7 item, Imperial Disbelief index.

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We get a correlation, but it's weak right point 2 8. but significance to so statistically, but not not huge. So I'm not sure what to make of that, except that it it's I guess, weak support for what we, what we, what we think is there?

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And now cut forth. Okay, so here I'm breaking out the

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various items in the survey. Some of them are from the Disbelief index

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and just simply saying quickly.

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in English what

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relationships we found. So

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some of these things are very obvious, right? We we had a a measure of how proud are you to be American, more authoritarian students were more proud, more authoritarian students, more likely to support increased or maintaining defense. Spending

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more authoritarian, less likely to say the Government's out is is run by a few big interests. These are just various other things we measured that are seem related.  let's see, I I don't want to

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want to pick up the pace here. Ok, so the bottom one, my bottom bullet point here is one of our sorry, our Imperial disbelief index items.

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The question was, Do you? Is it false or true? How false or true is it in your mind that the Us. War in Iraq was, you know, despite having no threat from Iraq, and that it was a war crime. Right? So that's another example of these

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imperial disbelief items. Right?

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More authoritarian. And these are other of those items right? So more authoritarian, we're less likely to believe that the Vietnam war involves soaking Vietnam with herbicides, more authoritarian, more authoritarian, less likely to believe the Us. Has been at war almost every year of its history. Less likely to believe that in 2,014, you know, these are.

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It's kind of an odd jumble of facts. But these were things that we found that were seemed incontrovertible, you know, so we could say, well, this happened. Do you believe it? Right so? Some researcher said that

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the Us. Drone strikes. may have killed 1,100 people instead of 41 which was claimed

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more authoritarian, less likely to believe in that the invasion Us. Invasion of Panama in the killed, 3,000 people, more authoritarian, less likely to believe us backs dictators in other countries. So these I've now told you most are all of the

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imperial disbelief items.

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and what you can see here is that, taken individually, they do back what we expect. We we're finding that the more authoritarian students are more likely to be skeptical about these terrible things that the Us. Has done.

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which, by the way, I'm not very good at statistics, but I feel like this is rather robust.

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and a point 2 8. Correlation isn't so I feel like there's something funny going on there. But in any case, overall, it's supporting what we expect, and that

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the

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okay, Pablo, if you're there, you can share your screen and start.

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Pablo: Hello! I will share your screen. My screen.

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This

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I think so. It's probably kind of.

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Oh, that's what. Yeah.

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Pablo: Is it working? Yeah. Okay.

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okay, go ahead.

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Pablo: Okay, thank you very much.

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Pablo:  so this my name is Pablo Mada. I'm a post-doctor research at the center for instead of violence during the first year. So Paulo in Brazil and today, I'm gonna present. My.

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Pablo: that's a part of my post-doctoral research. there, where I I analyze what?

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Pablo: Sorry? Well, I  where I analyze the the nihilism in in Brazil.

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Pablo: Yeah. Just to have a roll. But here.

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Pablo: okay.

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Pablo: then I lose my Brazil and the relations with the social media and the I for for this it starts to

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Pablo: developing this, there's a search. And well, with a definition of denial is that is, a for a social practice. And then

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Pablo: that we can especially find on telegram. And now I I like to to explore

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Pablo: the.

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Pablo: and in my my search I I treat this like a exceptional discourse. According to this, this conception denial, this course contains stars to regularity and the possibility of institutionalization.

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Pablo: for the reason. I I I ask, what is what do you mean when we said denial is the is not the buzzword, but it. They're based from our story. Call manipulation. And and this spread over the fact manipulation as well.

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Pablo: And we also we also investigate how the nihilism

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Pablo: had spread on social media. And with

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Pablo: so we state by the definition of Richard Rogers. that it happens that is a webinarization of to show me the platforms that for me scores preceding the news and public opinions with device content.

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Pablo: And I also try to

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Pablo: try to understand the the social media relations. that is

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Pablo: it's basically related with with the internet and political participation and the the ideas of the centering

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Pablo: and the the the question of

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Pablo: a massive amount of third files that for electoral proposed. What happens especially in Twitter and the elections Brazil lectures or in the U.S.A. elections.

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Pablo: But

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Pablo: it also spread over the the other social meetings.

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Pablo: And we also point out the the question of the the exposure of the numerical types of list of misinformation and dissemination of social media, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemics. And we posed that telegraph represents, like a dark corner of the Internet.

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Pablo: where we can find the public channels. just public channels have the content

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Pablo: open for for the communities. And we also find the private. you know, private groups, that is, where the the the users share properties.

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Pablo: Right? That messages.

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Pablo: we also state, that is, on Hebrew system does. It makes it

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Pablo: links information or individual opinions.

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Pablo: And in

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Pablo: the telegram we also see the spread of hate speech as extremism, position and with with with content week conference control.

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Pablo: So

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Pablo: from search, we are,

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Pablo: make some a research design

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Pablo: that starting in the conceptual operations of the dial is

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Pablo:  We start from a look what scientists call the nihilism.

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Pablo: And after we

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Pablo: we made a Biblical analysis about it, the dial is, and we try to find out the difference between the the, the, the types of the nihilism, and the specially taking the accounts. The context of the pandemics of COVID-19.

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Pablo: And we're we're also questioning if the the COVID-19 contacts has, create a neural concepts of the

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Pablo: or it was an aggregation of it's.

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Pablo: And finally, we also investigate the denialism telegram and questioning how to identify the the dial in the in the telegram. And for this reason we monitor it

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Pablo: some public channels. The message of of public channels. During 2 years since 2,021 November.

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Pablo: Well, well, the problematic analysis, we for the 319 scientific articles.

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Pablo: since 1999 to 2,021. And in this graph. You can see the, the, the.

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Pablo: the types of the my list that are the working in scientific charge calls. here we're

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Pablo: as we can see, the

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Pablo: in red, in red, the the climate change the climate change, the cluster, and in green the the nylism and historical denial is

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Pablo: closer, and he here in light wing, I don't know.

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Pablo: Sorry

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Pablo: well.

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Pablo: the light green we can see the he IP denial is, and in blue the COVID-19. So here where you can aggregate some some patterns of

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Pablo: of the the types of the nihilism. And

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Pablo: here. The the question of the some. Some difference between the denial is that are coming from the to aer analysis this story called the Niles is one of the most college called characterist.

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Pablo: and the

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Pablo: it is very connected with some of important facts. So for start facts, especially the fact that are related with the

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Pablo: right, we at the left wing and with,

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Pablo: yeah, some political events.

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Pablo:  you know their hand, we have the high. If you see the the my list that is very connected with South Africa context of 19 nineties. that this context is very connected with the

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Pablo: the

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Pablo: the refusal of treatment and the search for alternative treatments and the

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Pablo: and so on. Yeah,

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Pablo: we also identify the the environmental climate change. And I it. It's very complex and much more sand and the

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Pablo: than the HP, the nihilism, and it's very connected with the conspiracies and the the the mitel to the power. In this the the Microsoft tobacco industry, especially in the context of U.S.A. U.S.A. And the U.S.A. Government

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Pablo: related with conspiracies about the big pharma philanthropic foundations, etc.

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Pablo: And finally, we found the COVID-19, the Nihilist

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Pablo: that is connected with also connected with a big pharma conspiracy and the

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Pablo: in the context of massive misinformation and in social media. in this case we analyze the Brazil in case that is very, very interesting for for the definition of

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Pablo: of the Ni list, and especially the the the endowment of democracy in my right

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Pablo: up their retirement and

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Pablo: and the denial is so.

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Pablo: for our telegraph analysis for for external is we monitor it some some public channels as a set we another 135 telegraph channels with a public key that are open for the public, and

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Pablo: and we also classify as the Channel, as both on our support. So the former Brazilian presidents, supporters, political supporters.

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Pablo: we also phone channels of new word, new word or order

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Pablo: and conspiracy. This contents and and vaccine's theories channels. And there's this specific classification is very important to identify some, some, some difference between the this, this channels and the between the information between the information either that is shared in this in this channels.

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Pablo:  here too many tourists just just channels where

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Pablo: we both. We we build that strat for for telegram, for message of telegram and

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Pablo:  we also allocate the the data in a very common machine. And

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Pablo: we that we we collect

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Pablo: for month monthly. This the this that the during during 2 years, starting in November 2,021.

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Pablo: So here, we'll we'll share you with you some some correctives, because of this data and the or the content and the the channels. So here we're we're classified the channels, the the public channels that we

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Pablo: we are. we're

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Pablo: we are.

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Pablo: we're in many monitoring. And here, as as you can see in in red the conspiracy channels of the the channels that to share with conspiracy Terries

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Pablo: are the most popular following by the both salaries, the supporters, and others general. All those other kind of channels are, are less large, important, but we also identify the conservative channels that are that are making, that are, that have some some difference

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Pablo: for the and and all their political channels.

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Pablo: here we analyze the the the word vaccines and as you can see here, the some of the channelos are sharing much more negative in red negative message about the vaccines and the in

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Pablo: most channels. There's there's the irrelevant, the the positive message of of vaccines. And this is, it shows, that the content in the just channels are massively against vaccines and massively

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Pablo: I'm a

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Pablo: misinformation of COVID-19

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Pablo: here. you know.

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Pablo: after we identify the the links, the the the the kind of of

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Pablo: of the content. We started to think about how telegraph offers a type

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Pablo: type of

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Pablo: of of feed network that that's composed by social media and what we call of alternative

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Pablo: websites

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Pablo: here. we're constructing a kind of ecosystem of telegram in this ecosystem is connected with misinformation and the to retire and perspectives about the lessons and human rights here. One thing that's very, very interesting for your search is that

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Pablo: there's 2, 2, 2 2 types of of channels, the official channels and the the channels of supporters channels.

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Pablo: And this in this support or channels we can find a lot of sharing links videos where routes and so on, especially coming from the social media. instead, in the feature channels we have of the show websites. So official information share it. And

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Pablo: as well as the lobby, media websites or journalists. The same dependencies. Journalists based on Twitter.

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Pablo: So

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Pablo: we also identify some other tyrannies perspectives. when in a front attack against the the democratic institutions in just

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Pablo: massive, that is, very very very important especially because, just kind of at attacks are against the the Brazilian court to to regional court, and against for the the last as well.

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Pablo: and so on. We also in this 5, and the

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Pablo: that is related with it to Democratic it. Discourse that to reject the public policies, reject the State control for relative health

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Pablo: and focusing on personality in personality, especially by the Jerry Boson, or the the former President. And in Donald Trump as well. and it's it's very interesting, because most of the time. So we see

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Pablo: A vision that is can be very no, no sent from for what's both on Nairo? How

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Pablo: is contacting the Brazilian policy. but

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Pablo: we can see

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Pablo: we can see

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Pablo: a version additional version, or to which way we call off socially like that. The the idea of socially planted territory is is the that's there's not third term business that is, sharing in the the daily

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Pablo: of Brazilian and Brazilian society. And now we we're trying to. We did fight this in the social media and the the virtually version of this kind of

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Pablo: the sure some some some some ideas of races, inequalities. and promoting violence and the the least dimension of the democracy. no.

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Pablo: So for your conclusions.

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Pablo: we we we identified new interface from the mile is

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Pablo: and it means Case COVID-19 pandemics has brought together a speech that are not only contrary to dominant science, but it. It creates a not neo-sensitive crystallology that is Internet based.

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Pablo: it's It's it's produces a false contents false. The scientific experience false causal relationships, and also promotes opinions and violence with violence against confirmments, politics and journalists in this case. we analyze it, or or or or are

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Pablo: are scrap the before the the the 3 h invasion in Brazil. That happened in January 8 to 2,023, then. in this. Oh, we imagine that the that. The data for that is that you?

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Pablo: It's collected after the Brazil elections of 20 to 20 22 are much more intense in the question of the virus promoting violence against the the

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Pablo: the democracy, and especially against the Supreme Court to person. As for a court

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Pablo: we also conclude that the telegraph channels contribute to one auto retirement, vision of the society supporting, and if affirmative, mis affirmative content about the COVID-19 Pandemics and promoting frontal attacks against Republic institution. And about position. I have to

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Pablo: recognize a conversation. Denial is sharing content that coming from to web news websites that. So we we we we are trying to classify this this kind of websites

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Pablo: and also coming from from video platforms such as Youtube, but especially Rambo. And that's that that just just 2 platforms are special lies in in denial as well and in fake news

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Pablo:  as well.

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Pablo: So. here, I'd like to. Thank you for for for for your attention, and this my may, if you want to take into account, take a contact with me. Thank you.

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Not sure. Do you hear us from this? Micro?

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Pablo: Yes, I I can't hear you.

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Okay.

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great. Thank you very much for your presentation we open in the floor for the questions.

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if there are some.

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Yes, please.

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Yeah, I don't know this.

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I thank you for a very interesting presentation, and when I compare the first one and the second one.

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I just like to share the sort

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that is the connection of mass media about the

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the image of your State or the other State, like the United States or Russia.

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is it? It's a connection

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between the must opinion and mass media, because when

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might be. Your name is

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yeah. In the U. S. Presentation. I think it was evidence that it is a strong connection between information. What you kind in the journals and what you have on your minds. But as for the United States, I don't know what this kind of information is. A much made about the United States in American mass media.

372
00:56:56.010 --> 00:57:05.090
my, could you confirm? Or maybe it is the wrong idea about this such kind of connection? Thank you.

373
00:57:06.910 --> 00:57:12.560
Do you understand? Yeah, it is a question to go. So

374
00:57:16.860 --> 00:57:18.660
okay, yeah.

375
00:57:19.180 --> 00:57:27.850
 yeah. The Us. Is, I really subscribe to Noam Chomsky's description of the Us.

376
00:57:28.110 --> 00:57:37.290
A political system and media. He describes it as the propaganda system. And he says he and and I mean talk about how

377
00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:50.389
it's not government-run. It's a it's a system that works amazingly well to narrow debate, to bias the main information.

378
00:57:50.410 --> 00:57:58.610
what it gets without explicit coercion, without political authoritarianism.

379
00:57:58.630 --> 00:58:09.260
And he says, and I think it's true, it's that's scary. and I would say I have not. I've been fascinated by watching just anecdotally watching the news

380
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:18.100
mainstream news, and I also look at the more left and critical sources. But about Ukraine and

381
00:58:18.230 --> 00:58:27.530
I have done a lot of reading in this area and research on the propaganda system. So there's a background for me. But just looking at the news every pretty much every morning.

382
00:58:27.650 --> 00:58:29.140
It's amazing

383
00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:37.569
how, again, without government coercion, without, you know, journalists being thrown in jail, or any of that.

384
00:58:37.620 --> 00:59:03.370
The consistency, the narrowness, and the invisibility of certain topics in mainstream news. Right? not a word that I've seen right about possible provocation or aggression on the part of us. EU NATO? Right? It's all demonization, I say. My my short speech about the Ukraine is Russia is run by gangsters.

385
00:59:03.380 --> 00:59:11.310
And so what Russia is doing in Ukraine is criminal. But it's not unprovoked. And so my point is just anecdotally.

386
00:59:11.700 --> 00:59:20.290
It's astonishing how uniform the mainstream news is in not even bringing up the possibility.

387
00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:21.680
For example.

388
00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:32.909
is it relevant that NATO has more than doubled the number of countries since it was 1,990 when a top Us. Official said to Gorbachev, We're not going to move east one inch.

389
00:59:32.990 --> 00:59:44.020
Is it relevant? Yeah, right. But what I just said is unknown to, I'm sure most Americans.

390
00:59:44.220 --> 00:59:56.560
So I'm just saying, just for me again. I'm steeped in the literature, but just turn on the news every morning and watch this very. It's as if it's been authoritarian managed. But it's not.

391
00:59:56.620 --> 01:00:00.089
It's a culture of what the government says is true.

392
01:00:00.130 --> 01:00:05.429
you know. Believe the President, that kind of thing, you know, limit criticism's time.

393
01:00:06.280 --> 01:00:15.360
What's that? Oh, it's amazing. No, it's really again. So yeah, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is unprovoked.

394
01:00:15.410 --> 01:00:20.340
The Us. Stands for democracy and freedom. I have a very smart.

395
01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:24.069
dear friend who I had a

396
01:00:24.460 --> 01:00:34.509
he's very pro-israel, and so for years. We're we're. We're not going to talk about Israel, because I'll criticize Israel and he'll get upset. But we had this brief conversation on the phone a few weeks ago.

397
01:00:34.620 --> 01:00:39.149
where he said something about Zelensky, and I said, He's a crook.

398
01:00:39.830 --> 01:00:45.790
and my friend was offended, and he said the funniest thing, he said, but he's Jewish

399
01:00:46.460 --> 01:00:53.309
now, he and I. I'm Jewish, my friends Jewish. I don't. I'm that religious. My point is I.

400
01:00:53.610 --> 01:01:02.289
You know what your your your your defense of so of Zelensky is that he's Jewish, you know. So I'm just saying, here's a smart professional

401
01:01:02.570 --> 01:01:06.780
who doesn't think critically about Ukraine.

402
01:01:06.860 --> 01:01:29.529
and and he's he's one of the more knowledgeable people in the United States. So, anyway, point all this to say that without any explicit authoritarian, you know, Dracomian policies, the propaganda system is stunning in the United States, and I don't. I'm not saying it's that different elsewhere, you know. But that's all. So yeah, no, it's it's really

403
01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:34.459
I I tell a story. I taught a class once, a few years ago.

404
01:01:34.510 --> 01:01:43.550
where I was very undiplomatic, unintended about us. Imperialism, I said. These are all the interventions and all the violence of us wars, and so on.

405
01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:47.029
And later I heard that a student

406
01:01:47.140 --> 01:01:49.580
responded to what I, my lecture.

407
01:01:49.700 --> 01:01:51.380
Yeah, I hate America.

408
01:01:52.520 --> 01:01:57.119
In other words, if I'm not very gentle in my lecture.

409
01:01:57.490 --> 01:02:01.599
some of the students are going to take it, but I obviously haven't.

410
01:02:07.240 --> 01:02:11.440
Oh, oh, I I I've talked to Carlson. Sure. Yeah.

411
01:02:11.730 --> 01:02:12.690
okay.

412
01:02:18.140 --> 01:02:22.890
wow. So a little.

413
01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:34.170
So mass of

414
01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:41.620
I,

415
01:02:41.700 --> 01:02:46.120
I share your astonishment. But I feel like it's an easy answer.

416
01:02:46.190 --> 01:02:51.619
There is a culture of it's what I was talking about. There's a nationalism

417
01:02:52.190 --> 01:03:04.920
kind of American exceptionalism. So their premises. And then the mass media are again without a direct government threat.

418
01:03:04.950 --> 01:03:06.470
Very cautious.

419
01:03:06.510 --> 01:03:09.050
 I I

420
01:03:09.270 --> 01:03:10.600
yeah. It's it's

421
01:03:11.350 --> 01:03:19.259
among the I'm on the board of this magazine called Cover Action magazine. It's a whistleblower magazine we started by.

422
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:24.389
Philip Aji is one of the most famous CIA whistleblowers

423
01:03:24.590 --> 01:03:32.740
long ago, and my good friend mrs's son runs it now we have on the hall on our board, John 3 after John Kriak, who was

424
01:03:33.060 --> 01:03:34.409
high up C. I. A.

425
01:03:34.700 --> 01:03:48.140
He, and when I say high up CIA. He RAM a team that went after the third. Most wanted 9, 11 terrorist. Right? So now he's the real deal. And he made a mistake. I tell my students of being honest on national television.

426
01:03:48.310 --> 01:03:52.059
A journalist asked him, Do we torture? And he said, Yes.

427
01:03:52.520 --> 01:03:57.660
one of my story is this guy was, you know, criticized policy.

428
01:03:58.140 --> 01:04:08.760
Briefly, he didn't make a campaign out of it. He just said, on national television, yeah, we torture at a time when. And this is my point at a time when his colleagues in the CIA and journalists

429
01:04:08.990 --> 01:04:19.630
did not hardly touch. The question of is enhanced interrogation torture right? It was consistently. No, we don't torture, the the President was saying. We don't purchase. Geriako says that.

430
01:04:19.660 --> 01:04:21.480
and a good example of what

431
01:04:22.080 --> 01:04:28.540
of the I've been saying. It's not Draconian, but what happened to curiosity is, the CIA was furious.

432
01:04:28.750 --> 01:04:32.460
They ended up getting and putting them in prison. For over 2 years

433
01:04:32.490 --> 01:04:36.700
his life is upside down. He struggles to make a living. He hasn't seen his 5 kids in years.

434
01:04:36.780 --> 01:04:46.470
and I'm just reading his book about how they went after him, and it's stunning. It's completely arbitrary. It's clear that the CIA said the son of a bitch will pay.

435
01:04:46.640 --> 01:04:49.839
He's he's I spent last Thanksgiving on a couch with him.

436
01:04:50.070 --> 01:04:52.110
He's the sweetest guy in the world. Brilliant.

437
01:04:52.740 --> 01:05:08.410
They went after him. They tried to set him up. They had. They had some guy from Asia talk to him and try to get him to do something illegal, and John literally went to his bosses and said, There's a guy approaching me who wants me to spy on the Us. And the FBI said to him.

438
01:05:09.370 --> 01:05:10.730
Talk to him, meet him!

439
01:05:10.940 --> 01:05:14.890
The whole thing turned out to be a ploy to get Kariaka in trouble.

440
01:05:14.990 --> 01:05:24.419
and so, and he was put in prison because he was revealing classified secrets, all totally arbitrary Draconian crack

441
01:05:24.600 --> 01:05:28.450
because of a guy who was from the inside.

442
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:31.300
you know, pose a threat briefly.

443
01:05:31.580 --> 01:05:35.480
So, when I say this, not for me and authoritarianism

444
01:05:35.560 --> 01:05:41.470
well, there is, when necessary, but again, compared to many countries in the world. Us. Is not to your point.

445
01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:43.060
For me. It isn't

446
01:05:43.640 --> 01:05:54.019
anyway so just a good anecdote about that. Behind the polite obedience there is violence and coercion.

447
01:05:54.510 --> 01:06:02.840
But but back to the point, I think journalists just know when you're talking it seems irrelevant, but to me it's emblematic.

448
01:06:03.090 --> 01:06:06.249
I think we all know this. When Fdr. Was President

449
01:06:06.570 --> 01:06:08.070
and he was in a wheelchair.

450
01:06:08.720 --> 01:06:13.330
the norm in in mass media, the journalist Norm, was not to show the real charity.

451
01:06:14.020 --> 01:06:21.769
I don't think anybody ever told anyone I'm making this up, but I bet no one no editor ever said to a journalist, don't take a picture of the wheelchair.

452
01:06:22.490 --> 01:06:26.040
They just do it. And I think that's the kind of thing we're talking about.

453
01:06:27.170 --> 01:06:28.910
Hey? How are you going?

454
01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:40.629
You can maybe say a couple of words, somebody who studied very authoritarian media system. And I wrote a dissertation about the whole.

455
01:06:42.230 --> 01:06:42.900
Oh.

456
01:06:44.070 --> 01:06:51.420
yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. So I wrote a dissertation about the whole media system in Russia, and how it was

457
01:06:51.610 --> 01:07:09.919
disturbed, how it was tightened! How about all the policies that were appearing during the last 2 and a half decades, and it's very surprising for many people when I talk, because for many war censorship came in 2,022 with the war.

458
01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:24.319
and it was kind of unexpected turn in the Russian media policy. What I say I have studied 25 years before that, even like 30 years before that, and I can say it was from the very first day.

459
01:07:24.380 --> 01:07:45.669
never liberal. It was never free. It was always something And it was tightened through the years. It was more and more and more tightening and starting. I think the major attack obviously happened after protest. In 2,011 to 2,012 in Russia, when all the one

460
01:07:45.810 --> 01:07:55.470
protests were, they were not ever forbidden, but the right to be on the street, and to express their opinion.

461
01:07:55.530 --> 01:07:57.110
was tightened.

462
01:07:57.320 --> 01:08:04.820
And then there are like another another and another attack. Every year. Every couple of years have been in a new policies passing.

463
01:08:04.860 --> 01:08:13.879
so yeah, this system is very authoritarian today. And there is like actual word censorship. This is why a lot of

464
01:08:13.930 --> 01:08:25.710
journalists had to flee because they face imprisonment charges for calling the war, as we all know. But my point was.

465
01:08:25.770 --> 01:08:50.690
I started here in in the presentation I have done. I presented something about the Spiegel. This, which is known to be independent, which is known to be an investigative journalism which is known to be very open, liberal and free. And the same thing that we notice. That's that's the same discourse. It's the same wording, that's the same kind of patterns

466
01:08:51.130 --> 01:08:57.750
happening. And it was also kind of not surprising, but interesting to see.

467
01:08:58.780 --> 01:09:07.979
Let me think of another quick when I started teaching where I am now. It's a Catholic college, and it's a fairly conservative culture.

468
01:09:08.110 --> 01:09:12.929
And I remember when I was first teaching, I thought

469
01:09:13.740 --> 01:09:17.899
Catholic. it's a Catholic college. Yeah.

470
01:09:18.080 --> 01:09:23.409
I remember thinking well, I have to use sources that these students can't deny.

471
01:09:23.430 --> 01:09:44.429
So I'll use the New York Times, because that's centrist. I know it's very cooperative to government, but it's centrist enough, and I learned quickly that the New York Times, in the minds of many of my students is a liberal rag. It's in other words, in my, I I think the New York Times is a status quo newspaper.

472
01:09:45.380 --> 01:09:51.470
but many of my students are more conservative and have learned that the New York times is the Liberals.

473
01:09:51.660 --> 01:10:06.140
So that's just an example of the political culture in the Us. So I can't use the New York Times. I know some of my students will think, Oh, that damn level professor is picking a liberal source. Meanwhile, I'm I'm thinking how the New York Times has been cooperative to the military, industrial, complex. And

474
01:10:08.040 --> 01:10:14.769
yeah, I just maybe it's a question to you. But you mentioned the authoritarianism in Thesook, and I'm also at the so in Russia.

475
01:10:15.070 --> 01:10:28.680
I've been learning about that, and it's horrifying people getting thrown in jail for standing with a blank piece of paper. and that you can't use the word war to describe the Ukraine

476
01:10:29.310 --> 01:10:34.409
as much as I'm criticized in the Us. It's pretty scary what you know. How Russian, how authoritarian?

477
01:10:37.650 --> 01:10:41.170
yeah, all the

478
01:10:43.060 --> 01:10:57.170
it's like when you look, because people there are a lot of discussions, and people ask me. And there is like the whole discourse of people not protesting anymore in Russia, and if we were protesting, something could have changed

479
01:10:57.230 --> 01:11:03.860
And then I just send them to look at the statistics. And there is, like many, many

480
01:11:03.930 --> 01:11:27.170
organizations that it's that that sources statistics and publish it openly online. This is not one organization that several as you can even compare. And there are protests happening every almost every single day somewhere in Russia, and sometimes it's just one person but the white piece of paper. Sometimes it's people who are bringing the flowers

481
01:11:27.240 --> 01:11:39.370
to some Ukrainian monuments somewhere. Sometimes it's more organized protests, but, as we all know, the position is in present or flee is out of the country.

482
01:11:39.510 --> 01:11:52.169
anyway, there are people protesting all the time, and there are not so many charges, and that's not so many imprisonment cases comparing to the level of

483
01:11:52.530 --> 01:11:54.260
a process activity

484
01:11:54.380 --> 01:12:05.199
so many scholars who study Russia. They say there are no There is no massive

485
01:12:05.560 --> 01:12:31.730
totalitarian, authoritarian behavior of the state there are many emblematic cases. It was emblematic to throw naval into prison. It's implemented to torture no one in prison, or or any kind of opposition or politic or who's trying to be in the position of. But

486
01:12:31.780 --> 01:12:34.310
there are not so many massive

487
01:12:34.630 --> 01:12:37.949
yeah utilitarian tortures. And it's

488
01:12:38.040 --> 01:12:59.100
it's not fascinating? Obviously so. But it there is a fear, obviously, that it's it's it has created a fear. And also there is an opinion that all the Liberal papers on the All, the liberal media who exist in exile, who over exaggerate also what is happening.

489
01:12:59.360 --> 01:13:13.450
make more fear. And it's like this spiral, not of silence, but spiral of fear that those are happening which is also an interesting take on the events. But yeah, when I'm asked if I'm going to Russia. I'm not going to Russia

490
01:13:13.450 --> 01:13:41.959
for all the work I do I probably would be present. I don't know if anybody could go with me. I have no clue. But if anybody came to the idea to Google me, I'm not texting in the Russian speaking world, and I'm not especially active in the Russian speaking meeting. But I'm very active in Austrian media, for example, and I never hold back in what I say. So, yeah, if somebody comes to idea to Google me. Probably they will find charges. But this is.

491
01:13:42.610 --> 01:13:49.209
I think, nobody Googles me. This is the case. This is a big country. There are many people who are much more excited much.

492
01:13:49.220 --> 01:13:55.280
and have like real threat there rather than me. So yeah.

493
01:13:56.610 --> 01:14:05.330
I just want to tell another quick story again. I'm trying to quickly give you an image of my understanding of us. Us. Propaganda system. When

494
01:14:05.390 --> 01:14:13.600
the fame you remember in the famous early in the Iraq War, when a huge Saddam Hussein, a monument, was pulled down. We all have that image.

495
01:14:14.440 --> 01:14:18.190
There was coverage which I trust that it was very

496
01:14:18.210 --> 01:14:22.280
was performative. There wasn't that big a crowd?

497
01:14:22.460 --> 01:14:34.670
In other words, right? So, in other words, and I'm thinking, I remember the article that I read that had pictures that were like basically someone zoomed out, and you could see that it was not a very big crowd.

498
01:14:34.840 --> 01:14:37.279
The mainstream news media

499
01:14:37.520 --> 01:14:41.750
used it as a wonderful example of how enthusiastic

500
01:14:41.990 --> 01:14:53.140
the Iraqi people were about the Us. Invasion, and thankful which they were. But my point is that there was not a word, as far as I know in the mainstream news about

501
01:14:53.230 --> 01:15:00.000
was this partly yes, staged, you know. It was quite staged, but not not a word.

502
01:15:01.350 --> 01:15:02.740
Just critical press.

503
01:15:02.900 --> 01:15:08.800
Look at the pictures. So just another example of the kind of amazing consistency.

504
01:15:12.500 --> 01:15:15.950
Are there any more questions? Yes, yes.

505
01:15:16.460 --> 01:15:21.259
I also have a question for Pablo. so don't disconnect. Please

506
01:15:21.420 --> 01:15:48.270
thank you for your presentations. I injured a lot, and I have a question about Russia. The first question about Russia. Now it has to do with the question of Ukraine, the invention of Ukraine. What is the role of other after the collapse of the Soviet Union? And how do we understand the question of, because we call different names authoritarian communities in a different

507
01:15:48.340 --> 01:16:05.329
Erez agmoni, and that there are different turning points, because your analysis was kind of historical. After this Second World War up to at the present time. So what's the role of playing other kind of nation states after the collapse of the Soviet Union, because there are different 2

508
01:16:05.360 --> 01:16:28.809
kind of foreign policy of of Russia versus, for example, Kazakhstan, or politics for Ukraine. I understand that Ukraine is kind of in between. Kazakhstan is kind of, you know, under control, but the Baltic countries are kind of independent, you know, as a little bit far away. So I mean when we call authoritarian regime?

509
01:16:28.810 --> 01:16:35.400
do we take into consideration just the limits of the nation and stuff Russia today, or

510
01:16:35.430 --> 01:16:45.229
can be kind of a little bit wide. And you know this understanding. And what's the role of playing these countries or Russian desk for? Maybe in this understanding?

511
01:16:45.620 --> 01:16:49.600
And this is the the question, and that the question about about the

512
01:16:49.650 --> 01:17:00.959
and the Imperialist policy of the Us. Is that when you ask the questions of true false questions

513
01:17:01.010 --> 01:17:07.549
 it's fine. But I mean, when maybe we ask kind of

514
01:17:07.710 --> 01:17:10.540
more in-depth question, how

515
01:17:10.870 --> 01:17:12.570
there are respondents

516
01:17:13.010 --> 01:17:17.699
it cannot justify because it can fall under it. Kind of moral

517
01:17:17.720 --> 01:17:41.980
question, or on the De. That question of economy, political or security. You know it can be just if I didn't, one way or another. But my question is, is there any kind of analysis on that? How? How? Because when we ask kind of more a question, you know. And after that these number of people were killed, and after that it's can be easy that we guess the answer. But

518
01:17:42.050 --> 01:17:46.590
what's the justification behind this? These kind of answers? Thank you.

519
01:17:48.150 --> 01:18:07.309
Thank you very much. That's a really interesting and really broad question. We should probably not have enough expertise. But what was really striking. As I was listening to. Your presentation was at least about this idea of the United States Empire not being visible.

520
01:18:07.470 --> 01:18:17.330
and I think this is very much can be applied to the Russian Empire, and you will now be a little bit, maybe, surprised by this statement. But

521
01:18:17.770 --> 01:18:22.160
I think it's the same. People in Russia do not

522
01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:30.460
do not realize they are imperialistic set up.

523
01:18:30.760 --> 01:18:47.460
really. And it would be interesting also to to go with this kind of survey and measure this, because what's being measured now, it's clearly what you think about the war, and what you think about Ukraine, and and so on, and so on. And do you think we are the brotherhood nations and

524
01:18:47.470 --> 01:19:01.350
But this kind of authoritarian and imperialistic set of mind this is not, I think, realized by many people, and it is very subtle how this

525
01:19:01.400 --> 01:19:21.180
there is a lot of nostalgia about the Soviet Union, and I think it is very subtle way how all the media, and all the official discours are feeding into this nostalgia and not obviously not framing it as imperialistic. So when Russia invaded Ukraine.

526
01:19:21.190 --> 01:19:40.410
nobody believed it's for the Territories. Nobody believed it's like it was obviously framed as, yeah. There is a threat from that. There is a threat there, there. There are troops being brought by whatever countries to Ukraine, we need to defend our state.

527
01:19:40.910 --> 01:19:43.839
so, and

528
01:19:44.020 --> 01:19:52.259
people. Obviously, there are some very extreme groups who are willing to.

529
01:19:52.590 --> 01:20:06.910
who were also happy about the Crimea, and who would be happy Ukraine to be the part of Russia. But in the majority there is this very subtle nostalgia feeling about the Soviet Union, but not this

530
01:20:06.910 --> 01:20:25.360
imperialistic feeling. So it is very interesting, even though I feel the set up is there, and Russian imperialism is very strong. It is not framed directly, and there is no official discourse that has been frame in this

531
01:20:25.490 --> 01:20:33.429
and about the role of other countries, and about the foreign policy of Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

532
01:20:33.510 --> 01:20:47.630
Oh, my God! So there were so many again, so many conflicts, that the the general public. Sorry the term tend to forget.

533
01:20:47.890 --> 01:21:14.390
So now, first, it's the first time in many, many cares that we have direct flies to Georgia from Russia starting from this year, and people like don't even realize like, why didn't we have them? Why didn't you have the Georgian wine? Why didn't you have the the flights directly to policing, it's like, and I'm pretty sure if I don't have any data, it's everything I'm making up on the way. But

534
01:21:14.410 --> 01:21:37.080
and British for making this survey, and saying like, look like you did, there is this activity that we have done this like this, many countries where Russian troops are in now. There is like so many conflicts we have been in after the failure of the collapse of the Soviet Union. This is like where we put our interest in our Emperor, this thing.

535
01:21:37.140 --> 01:21:40.660
or whatever it is. I think it's it's

536
01:21:41.270 --> 01:21:56.170
forgotten. It's not realized. And it's obviously many things for hidden, but in times of Georgian well, for example, it it was not. It was not so tight in the media system, and information was available.

537
01:21:56.600 --> 01:22:03.300
so I don't know if I anyhow answer your question, but because of my fault.

538
01:22:05.450 --> 01:22:10.770
 So justification. I if I understand you.

539
01:22:11.220 --> 01:22:20.059
you're asking which I think is a great point. If I had a conversation with my students, or whoever.

540
01:22:20.200 --> 01:22:25.749
and told him these facts, my home, and then let them talk

541
01:22:26.120 --> 01:22:28.800
some of them, at least would say, Yeah, but

542
01:22:29.100 --> 01:22:30.780
yeah. But

543
01:22:30.870 --> 01:22:39.350
 Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I look. I can say we're not about ending the war in World War Ii.

544
01:22:39.670 --> 01:22:42.950
They were about threatening Soviet Union.

545
01:22:43.160 --> 01:22:45.149
showing us power.

546
01:22:45.310 --> 01:22:51.069
and I know some of my students, if I got them talking, would say, Yeah, but we saved troops. We, you know.

547
01:22:51.130 --> 01:22:58.030
right? So you're absolutely right. Any of this. That would be direction for future research.

548
01:22:58.610 --> 01:23:07.100
I think again, I'm understanding your question. What I think of is my psychoanalytic orientation? Right? I'm coming out of critical theory and cycling analytic

549
01:23:07.280 --> 01:23:09.960
people. will defend

550
01:23:10.680 --> 01:23:14.109
relentlessly what they're comfortable, believing

551
01:23:14.400 --> 01:23:30.230
not that they're permanently gonna be wrong, or believe things that aren't true. But they will fight real hard not to hear what they don't want to hear. So I know if I had a conversation with students, or whoever, and said, Here are some terrible things.

552
01:23:30.660 --> 01:23:36.209
Some of it would be disbelief. I just think, you know. Check your facts, and some of it would be well.

553
01:23:36.320 --> 01:23:47.659
you know, but we had to do that, because, in fact, I think it would be a great avenue of research I have. It's an article I should write. I always think of article ideas. I don't finish anything. But

554
01:23:47.990 --> 01:24:16.539
I think that it's what someone should research. And and I've heard ideas like this, the creativity of people in denial right? Our, our, our our presentation. That denial, like anyway, people, it's very. You have to be creative to not hear things, you know. You have to be creative to think of. No, I think we've all had this experience. You're having a political argument with someone. And they see one argument. One claim doesn't quite work. So they come up with another one.

555
01:24:16.710 --> 01:24:30.749
We're using our intelligence. It's just motivated reasoning. That's the problem, right? I determined to prove you wrong. I'm not wanting to agree with you. So I'm just going to keep coming up with, well, but you know. So yeah, no justification and create creative

556
01:24:30.780 --> 01:24:36.470
and sometimes silly logic is absolutely happening here.

557
01:24:36.620 --> 01:24:49.309
Absolutely. No one of the best examples is probably, I think, one of the major tenets principles of imperial thinking is the Us. Has to be stronger, because otherwise we'll be a victim.

558
01:24:49.750 --> 01:24:53.330
And that's again. That's not just the Us.

559
01:24:53.500 --> 01:25:01.900
You know, I think, about mass shootings and the gun culture in my country. I've been puzzling. How do I get my students to rethink

560
01:25:01.970 --> 01:25:09.639
the idea that the way to be safe is to carry a gun. I I how do I show them that? That's crazy, you know.

561
01:25:09.780 --> 01:25:30.480
and I say things to them like there are moments when you might want to have a weapon. I acknowledge that not a pacifist, but the idea that we should all walk around with guns on our hips is absolutely insane and benefits the elites. That's my own, anyway. So yeah, justification. And you know, strange logic, and so on. Absolutely God, it would be great research.

562
01:25:30.630 --> 01:25:35.380
Was I getting what you're where you're going, and you meant it for a couple of

563
01:25:36.030 --> 01:25:36.700
yeah.

564
01:25:38.450 --> 01:25:40.420
Pablo, are you with us?

565
01:25:44.730 --> 01:25:45.440
That?

566
01:25:46.140 --> 01:25:48.209
Pablo: Yes, I'm here.

567
01:25:48.490 --> 01:26:05.490
Thank you for your presentation. I'd like to ask you one question when you present it as a set of groups which you are under your investigation. You mentioned the Bosonaros of supporters. And what about their alternative group?

568
01:26:06.840 --> 01:26:17.649
Did they present it themselves in telegram or not, why, you use only Bolsonaro supporters. But, for example, a President Lula supporters.

569
01:26:18.270 --> 01:26:19.680
this is my question.

570
01:26:21.320 --> 01:26:22.950
Pablo: So

571
01:26:23.510 --> 01:26:33.209
Pablo: the the idea of alternative groups and alternative.

572
01:26:33.280 --> 01:26:34.330
Pablo: I don't know.

573
01:26:34.470 --> 01:26:45.259
Pablo: Alternative websites of websites is about some some websites that

574
01:26:45.330 --> 01:26:47.070
Pablo: create

575
01:26:47.120 --> 01:26:54.720
Pablo: But publishers, the the news like the the traditional media.

576
01:26:54.830 --> 01:27:03.469
Pablo: But it's much more alternative than informative. I don't know if this this this difference

577
01:27:03.510 --> 01:27:18.570
Pablo: up and the angels. it to's groups that. just channel delivery channels that sheriff's

578
01:27:18.710 --> 01:27:22.190
Pablo:  this

579
01:27:22.250 --> 01:27:29.590
Pablo: this. Websites are much more present, and

580
01:27:29.740 --> 01:27:40.319
Pablo: with with both of our supporters. the the the case about the newulas and little supporters in telegram.

581
01:27:40.510 --> 01:27:50.310
Pablo: I I think. that's very residual. it's there there is

582
01:27:50.640 --> 01:27:56.220
Pablo: and not use. The liberal supporters are not very

583
01:27:56.240 --> 01:28:06.349
Pablo: for present in in telegram especially because they are much more present in Twitter

584
01:28:06.710 --> 01:28:12.470
Pablo: or over there. So all all the social media

585
01:28:12.490 --> 01:28:40.030
Pablo: the Bosonaros have been, I think, in 2,000, and in the early of 2,022 he He made a big campaign to the to their supporters, join in telegram, and he quickly achieved 1 million followers

586
01:28:40.030 --> 01:28:47.230
Pablo: in telegram. And but it's just just this number.

587
01:28:47.230 --> 01:29:02.440
Pablo: simply it's not an interesting and an interesting fact. What what is important in this and this

588
01:29:02.950 --> 01:29:21.169
Pablo: I just the claim of Bolsonaro is that a lot of the their. Their supporters are already present in telegram. Yeah. Bosonaro, knows that.

589
01:29:21.170 --> 01:29:33.029
Pablo: there, there's a lot of supporters in in telegram. And he tried to promote this on community.

590
01:29:33.120 --> 01:29:44.540
Pablo:  and this, okay, it's work. It's it's works for here, for her, for him and  there.

591
01:29:44.650 --> 01:29:47.440
Pablo: I I I think that

592
01:29:47.530 --> 01:30:01.109
Pablo:  It creates a like an an ecosystem of a telegram of of Intel of both of our followers.

593
01:30:01.430 --> 01:30:04.620
Pablo: in the

594
01:30:04.760 --> 01:30:07.690
Pablo: I I in. In

595
01:30:07.750 --> 01:30:13.240
Pablo: the other hand, the Lula followers are much more

596
01:30:13.680 --> 01:30:19.780
Pablo: UN concentrated. Maybe they are in their social media.

597
01:30:24.310 --> 01:30:30.080
Pablo: Yeah, that's it. I I I don't know. I don't know if I if I would. I I respond to correctly. But

598
01:30:30.210 --> 01:30:36.819
I understand. Thank you very much. Thank you. I kind of made the same note. When I was listening to you. I was like.

599
01:30:36.930 --> 01:30:47.969
 You had 145 channels, and I was just wondering, how did you come up with this sample. And how did you find the the channels? Because

600
01:30:48.060 --> 01:30:55.170
I published a couple of papers on telegram, and I started this phenomenon of telegram and Saturday news

601
01:30:55.230 --> 01:31:08.439
in Russia, and I also listen to a couple of presentations about telegram channels in Ukraine. It's also absolutely astonishing. And we have all the same kind of problem, not finding these channels.

602
01:31:08.680 --> 01:31:12.149
so yeah, my question was just about the sample

603
01:31:12.820 --> 01:31:23.199
Pablo: So trying this channels I started with the channels that that are

604
01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:26.330
Pablo: oh, so initially, in

605
01:31:26.510 --> 01:31:55.150
Pablo: a lecturer campaign of 2,020 2,018 there I start to follow some. Whatsapp. groups of both of our own supporters then in the end of of some of this Whatsapp groups will work closer or migrated to to telegram.

606
01:31:55.300 --> 01:31:56.820
Pablo: Then in

607
01:31:57.160 --> 01:32:10.679
Pablo: when they when they immigrated to to telegraph I I I I I've I've I've I've I've followed the the this this channels

608
01:32:10.750 --> 01:32:16.199
Pablo: and I I I especially

609
01:32:17.550 --> 01:32:23.090
Pablo: for the channels that are the links are shared

610
01:32:23.740 --> 01:32:26.409
Pablo: And

611
01:32:26.670 --> 01:32:35.050
Pablo: from our supporters so their chat the other channels. So, and it's

612
01:32:35.670 --> 01:32:50.170
Pablo: And I, I I get a a lot of all channels of this this way and in the In the end of the the next. The last year

613
01:32:50.170 --> 01:33:06.999
Pablo: Virginia Supreme Court has closed up a lot of web of telegram channels, you know, for both of our supporters. Then I I lost the the to the this channel. So the the

614
01:33:07.190 --> 01:33:10.150
Pablo: the The

615
01:33:10.580 --> 01:33:33.600
Pablo: the owner of this cellos are now much more. they are trying to create some alternatives, but to a a a lot of a lot of channels kit and people working. then I I

616
01:33:33.660 --> 01:34:01.890
Pablo: I have the the ipothesis that they are. they are closing the the public channels, and they are working with a close of groups. that is much more inter interesting to to share a you know ever, thank you. You imagine especially hate speech and misinformation.

617
01:34:05.840 --> 01:34:07.180
Thank you very much.

618
01:34:07.520 --> 01:34:08.220
Yeah.

619
01:34:08.530 --> 01:34:15.800
Thanks for doing naive question, Carlos. A lot of what you're looking at the dark web.

620
01:34:16.120 --> 01:34:17.699
Is that the right time?

621
01:34:21.460 --> 01:34:24.610
Pablo:  so

622
01:34:24.870 --> 01:34:36.700
Pablo: I I think telegraph's almost at a a a. A. It's a dark corner, not a a a a dark and and a

623
01:34:37.230 --> 01:34:48.539
Pablo:  and I remember, I think, in 2,021, when the the pandemics in Brazil are very high.

624
01:34:49.290 --> 01:34:50.520
Pablo: we

625
01:34:50.540 --> 01:34:55.580
I I found a lot of the channel of telegraph channels that are

626
01:34:55.720 --> 01:35:00.840
Pablo: for guns or the or

627
01:35:01.070 --> 01:35:10.200
Pablo: selling gans or selling body parts.

628
01:35:10.400 --> 01:35:12.739
Pablo: It's weird, completely weird, but

629
01:35:12.860 --> 01:35:42.520
Pablo: they're the signing of organs and so on. the A, a lot of this. This channels are not completely integrated, completely linked with with a political supporters channels, but they they have in common with the the sharing of conspiracy theories. So in this

630
01:35:42.890 --> 01:35:56.090
Pablo: and there's channels of a conspiracy terrorist is where you can find some some ideas of a lumiat or

631
01:35:56.200 --> 01:36:12.420
Pablo: What else you can imagine as well, so here we have a very interesting question, that is, a mixed with misi formation.

632
01:36:12.420 --> 01:36:30.199
Pablo: when it's compositions, enter vaccines. Or you know, conspiracy areas or crypto crypto coins. the Crypto or crypto coins

633
01:36:30.360 --> 01:36:48.699
Pablo:  information and so on. It's it's it's very mixed and Indian in telegraph. Some of the the the borders are not. The the partners of information are not

634
01:36:49.280 --> 01:36:54.289
Pablo: they are not clear. And

635
01:36:54.800 --> 01:36:59.510
Pablo: so I imagine, that the

636
01:36:59.680 --> 01:37:18.390
Pablo: both of our workers channels are They also they also share it, not not only information, but they are also share with links. And what? What else? That that you can imagine.

637
01:37:18.520 --> 01:37:31.529
Pablo: but one thing that  this is that also is in 13 is that

638
01:37:32.080 --> 01:37:36.770
Pablo: the, there's much more debate to

639
01:37:36.790 --> 01:37:47.740
Pablo: against against the the left or against the I guess the left wing or against the

640
01:37:47.750 --> 01:37:52.670
Pablo: Brazilian Co. Or so Brazilian. record

641
01:37:52.910 --> 01:38:01.160
Pablo:  then And political idea of

642
01:38:01.190 --> 01:38:12.739
Pablo: up. it's it's a this. This. This topics are much, much common in this ages. just channels.

643
01:38:12.800 --> 01:38:14.340
So

644
01:38:14.810 --> 01:38:32.100
Pablo: for the reason I I I think that it's very complex to identify what is the Nile and all the the nihilism spread the 1. 1 one type for for this is that

645
01:38:32.140 --> 01:38:46.510
Pablo: the telegram facility has has facilitated the the at the spread of misinformation during this, the the the last last last years.

646
01:38:46.690 --> 01:38:56.370
Pablo: but we have the we we we have into the after the

647
01:38:56.590 --> 01:39:17.829
Pablo:  provision of the Brazilian, the Supreme Court of the Channels, and they also asking for responsibility for the telegram for the telegram.

648
01:39:18.090 --> 01:39:32.310
Pablo: yeah, it's for the telegram. So but it it's it's it's it's on course yet. And Maybe the the question of a responsibility

649
01:39:32.340 --> 01:39:41.990
Pablo: is is an important important point for Brazilian culture of of misinformation.

650
01:39:42.970 --> 01:39:45.510
Thank you. Sorry for saying your name wrong. By the way.

651
01:39:46.240 --> 01:40:02.490
thank you very much. actually, I'm I'm planning to do a book about telegram and all about, yeah, is it a very dark? Yeah, about the dark side of the telegram we did now, research about Austrian media market.

652
01:40:02.600 --> 01:40:11.580
And when you just type in in telegram, whatever Austria and you get the drug shop immediately, like the first link.

653
01:40:12.070 --> 01:40:31.659
the drug shop that would just just deliver you drugs to your door. And this is like, amazing. So yeah, I'm I'm planning this book about telegram on the one hand, being a symbol of freedom and digital resistance and giving the possibility to the journalists and and many, many people to connect and

654
01:40:31.680 --> 01:40:40.849
speak freely, but also being kind of the new Dark Web. So you are not an official program, Pamela. Could you just drop me an email, please.

655
01:40:43.780 --> 01:40:48.259
Pablo: I, writing the the chapters of No era

656
01:40:49.730 --> 01:40:51.230
Pablo: dot com.

657
01:40:51.470 --> 01:40:52.200
Yeah.

658
01:40:52.410 --> 01:40:54.960
Pablo: Can you? Can you see here? Okay.

659
01:40:56.700 --> 01:41:05.099
yeah, I will write it down. Thank you very much. And I think we're kind of out of time. Yeah, yeah.

660
01:41:05.230 --> 01:41:08.400
yeah, yeah, thank you very much. Yeah.

661
01:41:08.560 --> 01:41:12.879
thank you very much for the discussion. Thank you very much for coming on the very last day.

662
01:41:13.760 --> 01:41:18.500
Pablo: Thank you.