WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:06.339 Mariana Teixeira: Okay. So we'll start F. Welcome everyone 2 00:00:06.420 --> 00:00:14.270 Mariana Teixeira: to our last session of the research community 35 on conceptual and terminological analysis. 3 00:00:14.500 --> 00:00:26.129 Mariana Teixeira: I'm very happy to share this session on the peripheral turning sociology, rethinking sociology as a non exclusionary and inclusive part to 4 00:00:26.680 --> 00:00:37.989 Mariana Teixeira: We have today 2 speakers. And fortunately, 5. You're you can not join us today, because that's some health issues in his family. 5 00:00:38.010 --> 00:00:50.560 Mariana Teixeira: So we have 2 speakers today. And before I give the words to the first Speaker, Stefan Klein. I would like to read the acknowledgment the country acknowledgment. 6 00:00:50.580 --> 00:01:16.529 Mariana Teixeira: The place known as Australia comprises the traditional states of over 250 First Nations language groups. For nearly 50 years now Australians have increasingly formally recognized the importance of country and first nations, people's relationships and protocols for conducting business in country acknowledging country shows respect for the country and the first nations continuing connections to country. 7 00:01:16.650 --> 00:01:28.759 Mariana Teixeira: So the tasks and the I is a 2,022 World Calendar Congress to reach the cultural for protocols to be known to all and observed 8 00:01:28.890 --> 00:01:43.570 Mariana Teixeira: the country we meet on for this World Congress is called 9. It is the home of the cooling nation. We don't really void one of people, we acknowledged. There's a variety, and they are respect to their elders and and sisters. 9 00:01:44.310 --> 00:01:57.430 Mariana Teixeira: Okay. So without further ado, I'd like to give the words now to Stefan Klein from the universe, that from the University of Brazil in Brazil. 10 00:01:57.710 --> 00:02:04.390 Mariana Teixeira: and he's going to present on contributions by Leila Gonzalez and to racism, critique and resistance. 11 00:02:04.460 --> 00:02:20.659 Mariana Teixeira: So, Stefan, you have the floor. Oh, and also, since we are 2 speakers, I'm controlling the time. 20 min feature more or less, but we have some flexibility, so I'll let you know when we have. You have all right and 12 00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:22.359 Mariana Teixeira: 5 min left. 13 00:02:22.470 --> 00:02:28.529 Mariana Teixeira: but of course feel free to go a little bit over that. 14 00:02:28.740 --> 00:02:35.500 Mariana Teixeira: but not too much in order to leave space for discussion. Okay, Stefan. please. 15 00:02:36.100 --> 00:02:40.539 Stefan Klein: thanks a lot Madonna for organizing and sharing 16 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:42.770 Stefan Klein: the session 17 00:02:42.950 --> 00:02:44.849 I as well, too. 18 00:02:44.910 --> 00:02:49.300 Stefan Klein: camil and other people who 19 00:02:49.380 --> 00:02:52.499 Stefan Klein: maybe in Melbourne on site. 20 00:02:52.590 --> 00:03:00.459 Stefan Klein: So my presentation is titled contributions by Lever Gonzales, and the Racism Critique and resistance 21 00:03:00.700 --> 00:03:06.620 Stefan Klein: I hope to fit into the 20 min I I plan for this, so let's see. 22 00:03:06.880 --> 00:03:23.150 Stefan Klein: The I'll start out by Briefly introducing was, and she was a Brazilian like it like to. She was born in 1935, deceased in 19 94. 23 00:03:23.150 --> 00:03:37.689 Stefan Klein: she studied history, philosophy, anthropology, and she teach? Mainly among the social sciences. She was a professor at the a private university in here 24 00:03:37.780 --> 00:03:57.990 Stefan Klein: Jur. At the end of the 19 eighties and the beginning of the 19 nineties, and she was also founder of the movement in the the black unified movement in 1,978, and was a further, more directly involved with the forming group of the. So what I do is the workers party in 1,982. 25 00:03:57.990 --> 00:04:10.420 Stefan Klein: So the idea of my talk today is to give first the an overview of the some of the contributions of 26 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:18.410 Stefan Klein: has not been for a rather a significant amount of time, relevant. 27 00:04:18.410 --> 00:04:36.049 Stefan Klein: a intellectual in terms of recognition and Brazil. But during the last we could say 5 to 10 years, something on that maybe a little more She has received rising attention. but we It is still interesting to look at her 28 00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:58.399 Stefan Klein: that her contributions, and that her theoretical viewpoints under this forms of invisibleization or a marginalized marginalization. So I put, I'll try to put her in this context and focus specifically on some critical contributions towards enter racism and resistance that appears throughout her work. 29 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:16.759 Stefan Klein: So to sketch the theoretical framework that comprises the work. I'll first point out a dialogue at the critical dialogue between some Marxist categories, such as exploitation ideology, alienation among others. 30 00:05:16.760 --> 00:05:32.009 Stefan Klein: and a critical outlook of that of through out and to these concepts and categories, especially concerning racism and sexism. So she frequently she does not. 31 00:05:32.440 --> 00:05:58.879 Stefan Klein: simply leave aside this, the contribution, if we call it Marxist or historical materialist. however, people prefer but she's always looking critically at this theoretical perspective. we have to understand that. it's still somehow is, but especially in the 1960 s. 19 seventies, nineties, 19 eighties in in Brazil. It's 32 00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:09.450 Stefan Klein: was very relevant theoretical perspective, especially among social movements, and since she integrated the theoretical work with 33 00:06:09.450 --> 00:06:29.090 Stefan Klein: to intellectual practice with her political practice, I'll talk a little more about this. in a few minutes. we have to take this into consideration. Why, the Marxist framework was relevant for her work, and how she critically engaged with these concepts and categories. as a second point, she 34 00:06:29.090 --> 00:06:40.530 Stefan Klein: I just from a certain time on what's she's showed to deep interest in psychoanalysis specially, and the psychologist by Jacques Laka, but also 35 00:06:40.640 --> 00:06:51.969 Stefan Klein: some dialogue with the concept of Zig and Floyd. And Furthermore, there was a significant effort in her work 36 00:06:51.980 --> 00:07:12.930 Stefan Klein: to criticize the notion that Brazil was a racial democracy. So it's important to understand this. there was, especially from the 1940 s. And 1950 s. Onwards, and an underlying understanding that because of the different forms of message initiization and of 37 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:32.840 Stefan Klein: more or less in some cases not necessary, not necessarily interracial marriages, but interracial relations, that Brazil was a or some groups, the country tried to present to Brazil as the racial democracy, and that it goes out is among other 38 00:07:32.840 --> 00:08:02.790 Stefan Klein: intellectuals such as I just don't to to to to to to. They try to point out in which ways this the idea of racial democracy was, in fact, amid so they, if we you talked about the idea of the myth of the racial democracy, and how this was ideologically used to legitimize forms of racism and racially biased exclusion. And finally. 39 00:08:03.070 --> 00:08:20.949 Stefan Klein: I refer you to 3. Among many of the main categories or concepts that's led them was that developed. I'll get back to them in a few minutes. The first one is the concept of cultural racism, the second of Americanism and the search, the idea of resistance. 40 00:08:21.380 --> 00:08:33.020 Stefan Klein: So, moving onwards, I'll show 3 different quotes here. I'll starts with one contribution, and in her text, from 1,985 calls 41 00:08:33.020 --> 00:08:57.890 Stefan Klein: for an Africa, a for Latin American feminism. Put a feminine's mile for Luciano. Me to kernel, she tells us. I quote you, despite the positive aspects of her contact with the women's movement, the contradictions and ambiguities remain, since as a movement that originates itself from the Western Women's movement, the Brazilian Women's movement continues to reproduce. It's cultural, imperative and of quote so and she does the same. 42 00:08:57.890 --> 00:09:15.569 Stefan Klein: did the same in the context of the workers party, for example, identifying how? the fact that there was a big influence, or that's especially European. But sometimes also social movements in the U.S.A. 43 00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:22.690 Stefan Klein: Appeared as a relevant reference. And how, because of this, certain patterns. 44 00:09:22.690 --> 00:09:46.250 Stefan Klein: sometimes your centric patterns, sometime racist or sexist patterns where reproduce, depending on the context. And so, as she, when she is talking here about this idea of a cultural imperialism. She's pointing out that the women's movement in Brazil did not represent effectively all Brazilian women. She was worried about the fact that it was 45 00:09:46.250 --> 00:10:06.080 Stefan Klein: a movement that was that oriented itself only, and they took into account mostly, or only the perspective of white women, and in Brazil, and did not consider the specificities of how a big part of black women had to live their their lives. 46 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:12.269 Stefan Klein: And this also brings us to a second point. that is the fact that 47 00:10:12.370 --> 00:10:22.179 Stefan Klein: in which manner intellectual and political practice underlying a lot of these perspectives, so she's always thinking 48 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:39.879 Stefan Klein: and considering intellectual practice as a form of political practice. and at the same time seeing that political practice should have some form of intellectual fundament to organize itself. 49 00:10:41.030 --> 00:11:01.799 Stefan Klein: then I'll move on to the next work I'll quote of her. It's called Culture, Ethnicity, and Work. So here she she says she's sorry, she said shares without the the second idea I quote it is in this sense of racism as an ideological articulation, and the number of practices 50 00:11:01.800 --> 00:11:14.330 Stefan Klein: denotes structural efficacy by establishing a racial division of labor that is shared by all capitalist, multi-racial, contemporary social economic formations, and of quote. So on the one side, she's 51 00:11:14.330 --> 00:11:43.970 Stefan Klein: I understand that she's presenting a form of critique of ideology. So it's looking not only at the idea that racism is obviously a constitutes, by a number of practices so different forms of discrimination, but also that it organizes itself as an ideological articulation. And it's a to her work. It's very important to understand that it's not simply the the cotted and the day to day practices of people. 52 00:11:43.970 --> 00:12:06.590 Stefan Klein: But there's a bigger structure that contributes towards reproducing certain prejudices and certain cons ideas that are are obviously that stem from prejudice to stem, from a racist concept. But that frequency are not identified as racist 53 00:12:06.590 --> 00:12:14.169 Stefan Klein: when she's when she's talking about this idea of a structural efficacy. She repeats this in different moments of 54 00:12:14.330 --> 00:12:33.189 Stefan Klein: who work. She's specially pointing out how efficient racism is in reproducing itself. and it's indeed also points out the fact that obviously racism is not a restricted to white 55 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:57.940 Stefan Klein: persons in in Brazil. So it has such an ideological force, or this, these forms of articulation and this structural efficacy that it's we could say that it contaminates different groups that form a the Brazilian society, but in fact, she's making a, as understand it, a much bolder statement, and implying that 56 00:12:57.940 --> 00:13:24.020 Stefan Klein: this trade, this characteristic in Brazil is not restricted to the Brazilian society. So if we look at the a number of capitalist of motor, racial, contemporary, social economic formations, they are also, or racism also represents a relevant trade for us to understand that the forms of exploitation, of marginalization or 57 00:13:24.130 --> 00:13:46.430 Stefan Klein: of prejudice that constitutes these different societies. This obviously has a lot to do with the colonial divide and with the different forms of enslavement. And this is also why delicacy talks about cultural races. So she's always considering the idea that racism has to be understood 58 00:13:46.480 --> 00:14:13.799 Stefan Klein: through culture that it produces and reproduces itself on the cultural level. So it's not simply the general idea of well, structural racism, but she's trying to be, as I see it, more specific and looking at. And she does this in different works trying to better understand in more detail how racism is multiplied and reproduces itself. on the cultural. It 59 00:14:14.330 --> 00:14:20.150 Stefan Klein: at the third quote by. I'll share with you today from 60 00:14:20.540 --> 00:14:38.249 Stefan Klein: a small text that's called Black Woman. This when she's talking about kilometers. These are formerly enslaved people that free themselves in the Brazilian context, and not only feed themselves, but organized forms of resistance against 61 00:14:38.250 --> 00:15:03.709 Stefan Klein: as slavery, so the concept of the kilometers is linked also to certain territories and certain persons. And when she's talking about the kilometers or the people and the kilometres are the places, the territories where these people these people lived. She identifies certain forms of resistance, and she specifically links these forms of resistance to black women. 62 00:15:03.740 --> 00:15:24.499 Stefan Klein: So I'll quote her when she says when in the meant when she's talking about all my, this is probably the main kilometer in in Brazil. So she said. It's telling us it's inhabitant of the Columbus. She, the black woman, took part like in Palm Island, and this struggles against military expeditions desk into its destruction. 63 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:43.760 Stefan Klein: Never stopping to educate your children for an anti-slav is anti-colonial and anti-racist spirit, and of quote so that it's distinguishes in this text, and then others as well the 2 forms of resistance. she. She talks about the idea of an active resistance and a passive resistance. 64 00:15:44.060 --> 00:15:57.249 Stefan Klein: and she's pointing out that black women did not take part in only one of these forms of resistance, because in in that same mainstream resilient history it's very frequent to. 65 00:15:57.660 --> 00:16:03.859 Stefan Klein: in the first place, considered that enslaved people did not try to resist 66 00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:27.929 Stefan Klein: the forms of enslavement and velocity, and other intellectuals dispute this idea, so the the word a certain forms of resistance. But further, more valuable is is trying to a detail the idea that the the resistance is not only the form, for example, often aren't resistance of fighting physically, but there are others 67 00:16:28.050 --> 00:16:41.539 Stefan Klein: other forms of resistance that are equally relevant. And this is why she points out This contribution of educating children in an anti-slav is anti-colonial and anti-racist spirit. 68 00:16:42.730 --> 00:16:57.129 Stefan Klein: Finally, Moving towards the my last remarks, I I propose to understand the as an outsider within. 69 00:16:57.130 --> 00:17:23.680 Stefan Klein: taking up here, the interpretation of the Us. American sociologist Patricia, with her colleagues, I'll quote her to better contextualize my interpretation. But to your colleagues in text and article of her called Learning with the outside within, she tells us, I quote, as outside is within black feminist scholars, maybe one of many distant groups 70 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:29.630 Stefan Klein: of margin. Now, intellectuals who standpoints promise to enrich the contemporary sociological discourse. 71 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:50.679 Stefan Klein: bring in this group, as well as others, to share an outside that within starts with visa and to the center of analysis may reveal aspects of reality obscured by more orthodox approaches. And of course, when potential Collins is a develop this concept of an outside within. she's paying attention to the fact that 72 00:17:50.680 --> 00:18:01.139 Stefan Klein: deep. The notion of an outside, the within is directly linked to the idea that the person has a certain access 73 00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:28.949 Stefan Klein: to an insight perspective. But she's necessarily comes from an outside context. This is why she formulate this concept of an outsider with him specifically here when I'm talking about Leather Gonzalez, I'm considering that she has workers background. She was the first of among the siblings that finished 74 00:18:28.950 --> 00:18:46.109 Stefan Klein: not only the high school, but that's finished, and that's obtained an undergraduate degree and went to to graduate school. And and so she came from this background of a poor working class family, and 75 00:18:46.110 --> 00:19:09.660 Stefan Klein: we have also to consider that living in Brazil and growing up in Brazil in the 19 forties in the 19 fifties and becoming an intellectual in the 1970 S. And then in the 19 eighties that Levi Gonzales definitely was one of the only black intellectuals in the Brazilian intellectual community. So she certainly was an outsider. 76 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:18.080 Stefan Klein: I'm under different viewpoint. But she had an perspective, a different perspective 77 00:19:18.170 --> 00:19:24.689 Stefan Klein: on the one side, especially because she came from this specific context, but also because 78 00:19:24.950 --> 00:19:42.130 Stefan Klein: going to graduate school. Becoming a professor, she gained access to these spaces and these institutions that were predominant, and today still are, even though a bit less, but we're predominantly dominated by 79 00:19:42.600 --> 00:19:44.880 Stefan Klein: white intellectuals. 80 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:46.060 Stefan Klein: So 81 00:19:46.250 --> 00:20:10.339 Stefan Klein: this is how I propose also to understand the contribution by Leila goes up on the in this context. The main findings I, point out here are, in the first place, the processes of instabilization and marginalization, as pointed out by potential Collins, they aid us to at the same time, and looking critically at these processes 82 00:20:10.340 --> 00:20:23.989 Stefan Klein: to reconsider the the relevance. In this case this is specifically of, and to better understand the dynamics of epics. Systemic exclusion. So it's not only a matter of taking into consideration 83 00:20:23.990 --> 00:20:52.180 Stefan Klein: and looking at and reading the works of these intellectuals that were invisible and marginalized for now, or some of them over a century. But also, considering how this is one element among many different ones of epistemic exclusion, and this allows us to be to understand how these forms of epistemic exclusion worked and still present themselves. 84 00:20:52.280 --> 00:21:07.220 Stefan Klein: The second main finding is that goes on. This brings us relevant interpretations concerning these forms of resistance. I mentioned that she she distinguishes active and passive resistance, but a a as important as this distinction is the fact that 85 00:21:07.220 --> 00:21:25.580 Stefan Klein: Rosalie does not hire these forms of resistance, so she does not consider that the active physical resistance, for example, is better or more important than the passive resistance through educational processes. She considers that they are equally important. 86 00:21:25.580 --> 00:21:34.480 Stefan Klein: It's only a matter of presenting and organizing different forms of resistance depending on each political and social context. And. 87 00:21:34.490 --> 00:22:00.670 Stefan Klein: furthermore, she proposes a fundamental interconnection between theory and practice. So the critical to you formulated by is not simply an exaggerately abstract and conceptual idea of theory, and a political practice is not devoid of a concept of or of theorization 88 00:22:01.210 --> 00:22:17.989 Stefan Klein: moving finally to my last remarks, bringing into the center intellectuals that have been ignored. It's relevant, not simply because it's pluralizes subjects of knowledge. So we consider people as subjects of knowledge that have not been considered throughout a certain time. 89 00:22:17.990 --> 00:22:31.600 Stefan Klein: but it also brings a certain edge towards the critical understanding of reality. Now, linking this idea again with what potential cost calls, they'll side within It allows us to 90 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:32.970 Stefan Klein: effectively 91 00:22:33.110 --> 00:22:39.430 Stefan Klein: develop better forms and obviously more critical forms of looking at reality. 92 00:22:40.110 --> 00:22:52.079 Stefan Klein: So it's not simply a matter, although this is an important trade of pluralizing science, but of reorganizing the concept and how science is understood. 93 00:22:52.260 --> 00:23:09.890 Stefan Klein: This is also valid for reflexive outlook on the production of knowledge itself, so it allows us to assess the pitfalls and insufficiencies of the theoretical stances that are those that compose the the mainstream form of 94 00:23:09.890 --> 00:23:35.599 Stefan Klein: making theory of practicing science, etc. And last, but not least, we also have to consider how science is seen by those who are outside Academy, outside University, or our now starting their path in universities, be it, and at undergraduate on the undergraduate level, or in graduate courses. That is, the forms of understanding and conceiving science depend on who's practicing. 95 00:23:35.690 --> 00:24:01.799 Stefan Klein: And when we give more voices when we read intellectuals, such as Dela Gonzales, among others. Wb, the voice is another case in in a among the sociological community. so to say, we are also telling people that they are different forms and different peoples and different bodies who are allowed 96 00:24:01.800 --> 00:24:08.819 Stefan Klein: and are recognized and legitimized to make signs. And this is also a relevant form of 97 00:24:08.820 --> 00:24:37.529 Stefan Klein: contributing towards anti-racism. And in the work available on this, we can find this idea directly, but simply taking into consideration the different contributions, and appointed out just a few of them here in my presentation. we'll also contribute towards our own rethinking. And we concept re conceptualization of sites. Think this would be. It's Thank you. 98 00:24:42.140 --> 00:24:46.069 Mariana Teixeira: Thank you very much, Stefan, for this wonderful presentation 99 00:24:46.210 --> 00:25:02.759 Mariana Teixeira: 21 min, so on the on the top. I'll give the word. Now then, to Camila mozini Al Alastair with there in Australia. 100 00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:16.240 Mariana Teixeira: So Camilla from the University of the Sunshine Coast in Australia. It's going to present on the under the same Southern Cross, exploring a new sociological model from the intersection between 101 00:25:16.270 --> 00:25:18.140 Mariana Teixeira: Brazil in Australia. 102 00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:21.390 Mariana Teixeira: Camila, you have this one. 103 00:25:25.110 --> 00:25:31.070 Hello, everyone. Good morning. Thank you for being here in a Saturday morning after 104 00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:37.169 the you know the parties and everything. So I really appreciate the audience. 105 00:25:37.280 --> 00:25:45.760 so my presentation is titled under the same Southern Cross. It's exploring new sociological models from 106 00:25:45.800 --> 00:25:50.970 the intersections between Brazil and Australia. My name is Camilla. was in the Alistair. 107 00:25:56.690 --> 00:26:06.859 so this presentation it is a draft of a project that I wanted to submit for a scholarship that is very high. 108 00:26:07.150 --> 00:26:16.239 It's very difficult to get. It's called decre, but it is a draft. It is an open draft. It is a draft that is open for collaborations, for inputs. 109 00:26:16.250 --> 00:26:40.239 and it comes from my discomfort and my anguish with when I am referring to Brazil or Asian countries or African countries. I am a lecturer that teaches multicultural students as well. It comes from the discomfort when when I am presenting this 110 00:26:40.480 --> 00:27:05.529 nations in talking and relating about it. through the notions and through the lanes of First World, Third World, developing countries, developed countries, even global, south and north. There is a discomfort that comes with this that I would like to address and allow for neo- contributions to come. 111 00:27:09.580 --> 00:27:15.000 Okay, so the terms First World and Third World 112 00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:19.900 emerged in the article 3 Worlds, one planet. 113 00:27:20.630 --> 00:27:24.629 written by the French demographer, Alfred Salvi. 114 00:27:24.830 --> 00:27:26.840 in 1,952, 115 00:27:27.070 --> 00:27:33.110 to describe the different political positions countries occupied 116 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:35.519 in a cold war context. 117 00:27:36.070 --> 00:27:48.010 So the first world was composed by Western Europe. the U.S.A. And their allies. the third wall. Sex. Sorry the second world 118 00:27:48.090 --> 00:27:53.150 by the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and the Communist Communist block. 119 00:27:53.460 --> 00:28:00.880 the third world were the nations that didn't ally. With neither of these 2 former groups. 120 00:28:01.750 --> 00:28:05.750 however, after the collapse of the Soviet Union 121 00:28:05.770 --> 00:28:07.939 and the end of the Cold War 122 00:28:08.120 --> 00:28:12.019 first vote became a 123 00:28:12.550 --> 00:28:25.920 A reference to describe a development standard. to describe the reach or the developed countries 124 00:28:26.060 --> 00:28:31.190 composed by the U.S.A. Canada, Iraq, Japan, and Australia. 125 00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:52.890 as well as Third world became a expression to describe the poor, the underdeveloped, or the developed or developing countries mainly encompassed by Latin America, Africa, Asia, and most parts parts of Middle East 126 00:28:53.550 --> 00:29:00.460 coming from a Third World country. In this case, Brazil. 127 00:29:00.950 --> 00:29:08.959 Since 2,016 I have lived in first world countries, such as Spain, Germany, and now Australia. 128 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:15.999 I felt in my skin the consequences of such epistemological biases. 129 00:29:16.780 --> 00:29:18.380 Unfortunately. 130 00:29:18.830 --> 00:29:22.299 the expression itself of a third world 131 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:24.550 for developing nations 132 00:29:24.850 --> 00:29:31.169 became a category to that is populated by sticky words and images. 133 00:29:31.310 --> 00:29:37.100 such as violence, corruption, social inequalities, which 134 00:29:37.760 --> 00:29:40.559 no one can deny. No one can go against it. 135 00:29:40.630 --> 00:29:54.149 but it goes further, like prostitution, lack of education backward, the backwardness and the uncivil aside, or the primitive. 136 00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:04.360 In all these descriptions they are qualified as bad, avoidable. 137 00:30:04.450 --> 00:30:12.029 and mainly no desirable and my question was. 138 00:30:13.460 --> 00:30:15.140 but what if. 139 00:30:15.210 --> 00:30:19.060 by maintaining these views. and 140 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:26.069 consistently seeing and attaching these views of what a third world the developing nation is 141 00:30:26.370 --> 00:30:33.310 We are missing out. We are actually missing out the opportunity to embrace the richness 142 00:30:33.390 --> 00:30:40.750 that these epistemologies have to contribute beyond these sticky words and notions 143 00:30:40.870 --> 00:31:00.790 there is a lot of resistance. There is a lot of community. There is a lot of creativity that it's it's not being tapped into. So what if we're missing this in this violence, in this corruption? What if there is something else that also has something to contribute? So that was my question. 144 00:31:00.850 --> 00:31:14.470 And what if the answer for the issues that most first World societies crave for in the non-spoken qualities 145 00:31:14.590 --> 00:31:17.340 of Third World Societies. 146 00:31:18.939 --> 00:31:20.449 and vice versa. 147 00:31:21.270 --> 00:31:25.099 also the needs and the the the 148 00:31:27.529 --> 00:31:33.200 the answers that Third World societies crave for us in 149 00:31:33.330 --> 00:31:41.330 this first world strength. So how can we create these platforms for dialogue. 150 00:31:41.399 --> 00:31:50.090 And what if we started to see how the complementary qualities of these 2 opposed systems 151 00:31:50.180 --> 00:31:52.630 could help us create 152 00:31:52.830 --> 00:31:53.860 better. 153 00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:58.419 more just societies for all of humanity. 154 00:31:59.410 --> 00:32:00.740 So I think 155 00:32:02.280 --> 00:32:03.650 the first 156 00:32:06.840 --> 00:32:09.430 sorry I didn't pass through. 157 00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:14.879 Yeah, this is the last slide. 158 00:32:15.100 --> 00:32:23.470 So the first step for me in addressing these questions is certainly the epistemological one. 159 00:32:24.780 --> 00:32:29.050 the language itself, how it is 160 00:32:29.420 --> 00:32:30.710 organized. 161 00:32:31.330 --> 00:32:35.789 and the hierarchies and the positions that it implies. 162 00:32:36.090 --> 00:32:40.180 So Michel Foucault. through his life and work 163 00:32:40.390 --> 00:32:49.370 emphasized how the production of knowledge and this courses around knowledge, instead of mutually describing the world. 164 00:32:49.590 --> 00:32:53.440 actually produces the reality in which we leave it. 165 00:32:56.050 --> 00:33:05.720 In this sense language is not a mere neutral mediator that talks about things. It is a political force 166 00:33:06.190 --> 00:33:10.340 capable of producing effects in the world. 167 00:33:10.520 --> 00:33:11.999 In this sense 168 00:33:12.340 --> 00:33:18.060 sociology has already developed epistemologies, epistemologies of this global South. 169 00:33:18.760 --> 00:33:23.150 Marie, for all turn as well as the North. 170 00:33:23.390 --> 00:33:37.509 by many authors, such as Konos. So the Santos menesis. There is a platora of investigations around this, I have no doubt, and there is no doubt around the critical potency 171 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:41.559 these perspectives, in making visible 172 00:33:41.710 --> 00:33:45.910 the power relationships between the industrialized North 173 00:33:46.150 --> 00:33:48.760 and the marginalized self. 174 00:33:49.420 --> 00:33:52.030 However, the words North 175 00:33:53.360 --> 00:34:00.269 and South themselves still carry an underlying 176 00:34:00.370 --> 00:34:11.040 tension in terms of language. the the one of the of a North on top as a guidance standard on the compass 177 00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:13.170 in the South 178 00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:15.340 below, under 179 00:34:15.370 --> 00:34:17.350 in relationship 180 00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:19.879 to the North's guidance. 181 00:34:20.450 --> 00:34:23.699 So again a discomfort 182 00:34:24.040 --> 00:34:29.690 started to become visible and embodied to me. So 183 00:34:29.740 --> 00:34:34.850 my proposal out of this ontological dilemma. 184 00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:40.069 inspired by the symmetric anthropology developed by Bruno L. To. 185 00:34:40.510 --> 00:34:57.040 as well as the methods of what I. What is described as the inverted neurosymetric method. They are developed by Bernardo Floser and back, and also I work with it in my own research. 186 00:34:57.110 --> 00:35:04.680 So based on these 2 symmetric anthropology and the inverted mirror symmetric method. 187 00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:12.430 in order to create and to build a symmetric epistemology of development 188 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:25.880 where the concepts of First World Third World developing nations developed nations as substituted for avocado vocabulary, that horizontally 189 00:35:26.120 --> 00:35:30.670 chapters the core differences between these 2 systems. 190 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:44.400 As for Toado, Salsa, for Tadu of Brazilian sociologists long and long time ago, this is something that in Brazil is like so old and so established already, but I can see it. It does not have resonance 191 00:35:44.430 --> 00:35:45.630 and 192 00:35:45.950 --> 00:35:56.590 first world countries, but such a long time ago he he created the dependency theory in 1,954, 61, 67, 193 00:35:56.640 --> 00:36:09.650 and he will say in state, that third world is not a stage. It's not a phase which some nation states have to go through in order to fully develop and become first world 194 00:36:10.770 --> 00:36:20.810 instead. First and Third Worlds are 2 distinct models of development. with a specific characteristics 195 00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:23.140 and social forms. 196 00:36:23.740 --> 00:36:26.020 unique social forms. 197 00:36:27.310 --> 00:36:32.489 and the key element to define these specificities. Here. 198 00:36:33.050 --> 00:36:38.349 we'll take account into the different politics of care. 199 00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:42.129 on a accordion perspective 200 00:36:43.010 --> 00:37:09.419 that emerge from these 2 diverse welfare systems. So my proposal to and it's still something that is open is being investigated. My proposal is to analyze what are the the welfare systems, that? And how do they frame these specificities. So in the case of, instead of saying, first of all, nations developed nations, what about 201 00:37:09.520 --> 00:37:11.220 individually driven 202 00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:22.470 because they are anchored in the full institutionalization of the western project of the individual here is amplified by Australia. 203 00:37:22.560 --> 00:37:31.549 So instead of describing first world developing nations, I this is still open. I'm still researching this. But I'm proposing individually driven 204 00:37:31.820 --> 00:37:39.670 and the other one instead of Third world developing nations. Community-driven. 205 00:37:40.350 --> 00:37:50.249 characterized by the laws. Institutionalization of the individual Western project here is amplified by Brazil. 206 00:37:51.180 --> 00:37:55.619 So what could individually and community-driven societies 207 00:37:56.220 --> 00:38:00.370 together in parody. inequality. 208 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.789 learn from each other, and collaborate and dialogue from each other? 209 00:38:09.910 --> 00:38:10.980 So 210 00:38:12.470 --> 00:38:15.630 there are many popular 211 00:38:16.730 --> 00:38:19.369 symmetries and 212 00:38:19.610 --> 00:38:24.110 similarities and differences between Brazil and Australia. 213 00:38:24.170 --> 00:38:34.390 together with the fact that Australian Brazil shaft. Very, I would say, opposite welfare systems. 214 00:38:34.450 --> 00:38:40.709 one over, regulated in one with lots of pockets for informality. 215 00:38:40.750 --> 00:38:48.220 There is also the personal experience of being a citizen of both countries. 216 00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:57.270 I am both a Brazilian citizen, both an Australian citizen I am married to on Australia, so I am married with the culture. 217 00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:06.619 and in first hand I observe how these 2 subjectivities of care and welfare simultaneously contrast and complement. 218 00:39:07.060 --> 00:39:10.119 It is not by chance that both countries. 219 00:39:11.140 --> 00:39:14.570 as 2 giants. 220 00:39:15.560 --> 00:39:21.820 are geographically in the extreme opposites. as if they are looking at each other 221 00:39:22.290 --> 00:39:30.780 under the guidance of the same Southern Cross that they share in their flags. Both have the Southern Cross in their flags. 222 00:39:30.940 --> 00:39:48.880 And In the popular imaginary there are a lot of similarities, as well between the Brazilian and Australian culture, such as the sense of not being like the Us. With a very let's say. 223 00:39:49.740 --> 00:40:01.590 outspoken attitude, a Nationalist attitude towards the country we call in Brazil the Viralata complex, the dog that doesn't have a pure breach. 224 00:40:01.630 --> 00:40:25.729 also the the colors. This, the silly thing. Such a colors in sports teams in soccer are the same whenever is a day in Australia. It is not in Brazil, so they also have this complementary opposite. So there's a lot of imaginary and popular imaginary around this complementary and so complementary. opposites and similarities and differences. 225 00:40:25.750 --> 00:40:27.450 So 226 00:40:27.710 --> 00:40:34.699 therefore, my goal is to translate these similarities and differences. 227 00:40:34.970 --> 00:40:37.249 There's witnesses and strengths 228 00:40:38.430 --> 00:40:40.139 present, and 229 00:40:40.620 --> 00:40:48.900 and that are present in the models of Brazil and Australia along 3 different stages of research. 230 00:40:49.150 --> 00:41:02.499 So first, the epistemological one. by performing a vigorous comparative genealogy and sociology of the welfare systems. together with a 2 by 2 matrix 231 00:41:02.900 --> 00:41:15.559 of the impacts of these different different degrees of institutionalization, of an individual institutional individualization of welfare and care systems. 232 00:41:16.550 --> 00:41:26.730 second, by unfolding the epistemological findings into a phenomenological practice that aims to interview 233 00:41:26.810 --> 00:41:40.909 and systematize migrant vices in these 2 countries. But the vices in between the vices of Australians in Brazil and the vices of Brazilians in Australia. To get these voices that occupy the border. 234 00:41:41.100 --> 00:41:43.710 the one fit in one fit out 235 00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:49.350 and see this border as a space, and leave this spaces of border and marginality 236 00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:58.920 as a split, as a space of strength, as a play, a space of learning. So what if Australia's in Brazil would 237 00:41:58.930 --> 00:42:16.570 highlight as similarities as differences as things that Australia could learn from Brazil? What what would Australians, Brazil, in, in, in, in, in Australia, would see the similarities, the differences and opportunities for learning from each other. 238 00:42:16.590 --> 00:42:20.660 The gaps that are there 239 00:42:20.930 --> 00:42:28.350 and collect these voices, throughout virtual communities in social media, such as Facebook and Instagram. 240 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:32.689 live conversations as well. And third, and finally. 241 00:42:32.890 --> 00:42:39.400 condense these epistemological and phenomenological experiences into practical guidelines 242 00:42:39.550 --> 00:42:55.930 for policies and practices of care in times where more than ever we need to learn how to welcome diversity well, as an output of this project. It aims to materialize creative as well as academic 243 00:42:55.980 --> 00:43:09.139 research under the form of journal articles, online publications, and the exhibitions of these migrant voices, of these dialogues, of these spaces in between. 244 00:43:09.270 --> 00:43:13.820 and also possibly scholarly books. dialogues, collaborations. 245 00:43:15.620 --> 00:43:20.409 so may the solvent cross a common element of both poetic 246 00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:25.729 and spatial orientation shared by Australia and Brazil. 247 00:43:26.060 --> 00:43:31.840 Translate the values that also sites need to hold close to their hearts 248 00:43:31.970 --> 00:43:35.399 in order to move beyond essentialized boundaries 249 00:43:35.570 --> 00:43:38.740 into a new space of resilient 250 00:43:38.770 --> 00:43:40.599 in just futures. 251 00:43:42.560 --> 00:43:43.460 Thank you. 252 00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:57.510 Mariana Teixeira: Thank you, Camila, for your presentation. Now we have a lot of time for discussion. 253 00:43:57.570 --> 00:44:00.770 Mariana Teixeira: and so if anyone had 254 00:44:01.060 --> 00:44:02.610 Mariana Teixeira: has questions 255 00:44:02.860 --> 00:44:09.479 Mariana Teixeira: you can ask them now. I I also have some questions, but I will, if 256 00:44:09.750 --> 00:44:14.189 Mariana Teixeira: The first Place for the the audience 257 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:20.289 Mariana Teixeira: come your life, you See someone raising their hands there? Can you let us know? 258 00:44:21.540 --> 00:44:25.580 Yes. We have one most of the meetings. 259 00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:38.640 Good morning. Hello! 260 00:44:38.740 --> 00:44:43.210 Brazil was the last counter in the world to abolish slavery. 261 00:44:43.370 --> 00:44:55.690 This brings, you know, a hardball social heritage in Australia. There is not always slavery. How can an Australian experience can contribute to Brazil? 262 00:45:03.080 --> 00:45:05.230 Thank you for the question. Patria 263 00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:12.460 it's interesting, because through the process of colonization. 264 00:45:12.850 --> 00:45:16.080 through the British that arrived in 265 00:45:16.100 --> 00:45:19.720 the 17 88. 266 00:45:19.870 --> 00:45:24.100 In Australia there was a process of genocide. 267 00:45:24.110 --> 00:45:26.960 this possession 268 00:45:27.220 --> 00:45:38.760 of indigenous cultures as well as slavery. We have what we call the stolen wages, the stone generations they were. They are the backbone of all the meat industry in Australia. 269 00:45:38.910 --> 00:45:43.690 and it was something that it is something that is an open wound, and I think it is 270 00:45:43.810 --> 00:45:47.409 a critical opportunity to dialogue within this. 271 00:45:47.610 --> 00:45:55.200 How Brazil and Australia are dealing with these indigenous causes. I think this is a critical dialogue. 272 00:45:55.210 --> 00:45:57.660 especially because 273 00:45:58.460 --> 00:46:01.620 now in Brazil there is a lot of 274 00:46:02.100 --> 00:46:04.180 vehicle movement around indigenous 275 00:46:04.290 --> 00:46:07.680 causes for 276 00:46:08.130 --> 00:46:13.300 desperate need as well. But it's so, it's very strong. It's had very 277 00:46:13.340 --> 00:46:22.380 current as well as in Australia, and I think that Australia has a duty to the world, because here I have. We have the 278 00:46:22.520 --> 00:46:25.150 we Australia lived in firsthand. 279 00:46:25.330 --> 00:46:28.310 had the opportunity to 280 00:46:28.600 --> 00:46:33.050 go through the process of colonization as well as Brazil, which was horrible and horrendous. 281 00:46:33.490 --> 00:46:34.970 The difference is 282 00:46:35.240 --> 00:46:38.820 here. We have pictures, we have documentation. 283 00:46:38.860 --> 00:46:42.220 it's raw, and it's completely visible. 284 00:46:43.930 --> 00:46:46.380 and it's a mobile one. It is 285 00:46:46.930 --> 00:46:50.349 4 generations ago. It's very recent. So we can see 286 00:46:50.450 --> 00:47:00.129 in firsthand the results of these processes that in Brazil happened 500 years ago without photography and as much documentation 287 00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:09.009 like, digitally speaking, and, analogically speaking. So I think we have, like here the opportunity to address this, and learn from both 288 00:47:09.020 --> 00:47:10.170 politics 289 00:47:10.220 --> 00:47:17.970 how both Brazil and Australia are creating this. I think this is a critical dialogue. And yeah. 290 00:47:18.050 --> 00:47:22.370 I think there is a lot to to dialogue in this in business. 291 00:47:22.730 --> 00:47:23.580 Thank you. 292 00:47:29.250 --> 00:47:32.799 Mariana Teixeira: We have more questions on site. 293 00:47:36.790 --> 00:47:40.030 Mariana Teixeira: If not, maybe. okay, there is. 294 00:47:40.210 --> 00:47:45.809 I have a good good morning. I have one question to its speaker. 295 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:51.729 the first one is about the the author, Gonzalez. 296 00:47:53.420 --> 00:47:58.630 the first speaker. In your finding you, said, 297 00:48:00.830 --> 00:48:04.860 The third one, the last one it depends on who is doing it. 298 00:48:05.230 --> 00:48:14.370 So I read from the biography of Gonzales that she is a daughter of a 299 00:48:14.410 --> 00:48:18.420 black worker and a mother of a 300 00:48:18.630 --> 00:48:20.440 made native. 301 00:48:21.620 --> 00:48:31.189 Because I'm I'm still burying a Curious about this topic. Does it mean that there's a relationship between biography and your advocacy? 302 00:48:32.010 --> 00:48:46.319 So for the last speak. Second speaker, you talk about a symmetrical epistemic. Is that a so symmetrical and one foot inside and outside another footing? 303 00:48:47.110 --> 00:48:52.150 Does that mean that you become neutral because you take what 2 foot 304 00:48:52.300 --> 00:49:00.890 or you take side? Is there really a complimentary, or is it? Is it well using Derrida supplementary 305 00:49:02.380 --> 00:49:12.640 because you have to take side. whether you like it or not. For example, you are here in Australia. Whom do you take sight? The white or the aborigines. 306 00:49:12.810 --> 00:49:16.090 So it's a political choice. Thank you. 307 00:49:22.740 --> 00:49:25.810 Mariana Teixeira: Would like to to answer Stefan. First 308 00:49:26.710 --> 00:49:29.479 Stefan Klein: start thanks. A lot for a question. 309 00:49:29.650 --> 00:49:38.599 Stefan Klein: yes, I think on some level, we can or should talk about a relation between 310 00:49:38.850 --> 00:49:48.910 Stefan Klein: the biographical background of people. And how they do research. But it's obviously 311 00:49:48.910 --> 00:50:16.590 Stefan Klein: I'm not thinking about the deterministic relationship. So it doesn't mean well, those groups that have so background will do research the same way, all of them. And So those people who come from lower income families or from workers families, etc., will do research and and see the world the same way 312 00:50:16.590 --> 00:50:23.640 Stefan Klein: among themselves, and on the other side, people who come from 313 00:50:23.870 --> 00:50:49.900 Stefan Klein: let's name it the bourgeois family, or some form of richer, and groups with a higher income. They will see the world, and therefore do signs another way. I think the main aspects that's to which is. And obviously other intellectuals are. calling attention. Is 314 00:50:50.110 --> 00:50:53.179 Stefan Klein: that the way signs 315 00:50:53.210 --> 00:50:54.460 Stefan Klein: this? 316 00:50:54.860 --> 00:51:16.599 Stefan Klein: Maybe more directly perceptible in the social sciences? But it. It's it's also a valid for studies and health sciences and engineering and chemistry, biology physics, etc. is that 317 00:51:16.910 --> 00:51:30.070 Stefan Klein: only a few different perspectives were taken into account where where we presented And so they're calling our attention to the fact that because of this. 318 00:51:30.390 --> 00:51:44.759 Stefan Klein: to put it in a very simple manner. science was rather incomplete. and one of the biggest problems is that science it and this, again, is valid for the social sciences and 319 00:51:44.830 --> 00:51:58.890 Stefan Klein: for other forms of sciences, they present themselves as being universal. and there one of the main positions is that they are 320 00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:06.089 Stefan Klein: bringing forward interpretations, forms of explanation, etc. That are 321 00:52:06.330 --> 00:52:32.519 Stefan Klein: more or less universally valid, and these different intellectuals, they are able to show us that concretely science had not been done this way. That means that it's was not able to, let's say, live up to this promise or this place of position. and this is the the first point, and the consequence of this is 322 00:52:32.680 --> 00:52:40.300 Stefan Klein: by being able to also contribute. And those who 323 00:52:40.560 --> 00:52:53.799 Stefan Klein: during these decades of the centuries we're the mainstream among scientists, among intellectuals, among academics, etc. Must acknowledge that science 324 00:52:53.950 --> 00:52:59.210 Stefan Klein: during these times, presented only a partial viewpoint. 325 00:52:59.390 --> 00:53:20.860 Stefan Klein: and we have to acknowledge that this was the limitation this has been, and, generally speaking, still is, although we are trying to to fight it. We are trying to change it. but it still is a pitfall. concerning how science has been and is done. So 326 00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:41.519 Stefan Klein: there is obviously a change going on. But when you look at it broadly, you're able to perceive, or at least this is how I see it, and that's it's still the beginning. So there is still a long path, a long way to to go in this sense, and by allowing. 327 00:53:41.520 --> 00:53:55.280 Stefan Klein: and when I say allow it's not in a benevolent way, but it's a consequence of a different struggle through all times. But either way, that's different groups 328 00:53:55.290 --> 00:54:13.640 Stefan Klein: are. And we're now able to access a higher education to share the viewpoint, and also to make signs on the one side and that other forms of how to understand knowledge and also practice science 329 00:54:13.830 --> 00:54:24.600 Stefan Klein: are also gaining attraction and occupying the the academic space. This is something important generally 330 00:54:24.700 --> 00:54:52.080 Stefan Klein: for society, also outside Academy outside, let's say the scientific world, because it allows us to struggle against forms of racism, of discrimination, of sexism, etc., of ages and as well, and so on. But it's also very relevant for science itself, because, by taking into account what 331 00:54:52.820 --> 00:55:18.509 Stefan Klein: different viewpoints a wider, wider perspectives, more plural perspectives. And we are also enhancing the idea of the let's say the quality of explanation and of interpretation of science. So just to sum it up the these by graphical backgrounds. Coming back to the questions, the fact that 332 00:55:18.510 --> 00:55:35.589 Stefan Klein: we are now able to hear voices and to take into account voice that come from different biographical context is a very important trait. This does not mean that they will all say the same. We cannot say, Okay, now, we have 2 or 3 people that came from 333 00:55:35.640 --> 00:55:56.559 Stefan Klein: work with families work as families. And this, is it? No, because there are also differences among these groups. That's why I mentioned that. Well, it's a change, but it's still the beginning of a bigger change that has to be fostered throughout more time, I think. 334 00:56:00.050 --> 00:56:06.460 Mariana Teixeira: Thank you, Stephan. Camilla, you want to to give your answer as well. 335 00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:11.269 Thank you so much for your question. That is such a good question. 336 00:56:11.370 --> 00:56:13.900 I'm not. 337 00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:18.539 I have a very solid and I think 338 00:56:18.930 --> 00:56:21.819 ethical positioning where occupying this 339 00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:25.809 and I think space is off border. 340 00:56:26.210 --> 00:56:33.140 and the limits of these spaces are spaces that I occupy constantly in my daily life. 341 00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:37.350 and there's a spaces in between. I see them as 342 00:56:37.470 --> 00:56:39.990 places of encounter 343 00:56:40.730 --> 00:56:43.170 places where tensions are happening here 344 00:56:43.290 --> 00:56:44.709 on a daily basis. 345 00:56:45.080 --> 00:56:51.440 in my biggest aim with this 346 00:56:51.740 --> 00:56:52.790 project 347 00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:57.980 is how to how to create spaces for the margins 348 00:56:58.390 --> 00:57:07.280 to dialogue with the center. How can we make margins and send a dialogue? because there is a madness. 349 00:57:07.510 --> 00:57:15.930 complete address between the everyday lives of those who know what it is to be on the margins and those who are 350 00:57:16.030 --> 00:57:25.670 with the privileges of the center. The barriers are, and the obstacles are completely different. And there's an app. 351 00:57:25.710 --> 00:57:31.729 a complete evidence between the dialogue of these 2 ways of being in the world. 352 00:57:31.980 --> 00:57:38.230 so. even though symmetric might seem neutral 353 00:57:38.500 --> 00:57:40.419 if we think was like to 354 00:57:40.450 --> 00:57:42.319 is actually a way of 355 00:57:43.830 --> 00:57:45.110 breaking 356 00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:47.730 the hierarchies. 357 00:57:48.490 --> 00:57:50.689 putting those who are considered 358 00:57:51.010 --> 00:57:53.109 socially 359 00:57:54.340 --> 00:57:55.380 under 360 00:57:55.450 --> 00:58:05.440 as the same in the same level of parity and worth and value with so much to contribute and so much to you. So I think my my first 361 00:58:05.780 --> 00:58:10.400 let's say label 362 00:58:10.680 --> 00:58:12.220 positioning is 363 00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:14.949 how to first allow this 364 00:58:15.110 --> 00:58:16.830 models of development 365 00:58:17.890 --> 00:58:20.979 that have many issues as well as Australian 366 00:58:21.270 --> 00:58:28.169 individually driven societies. But how how to see also what are the contributions of these places 367 00:58:28.240 --> 00:58:32.319 that usually I'm not seen. So that's why I want to call them community carbon. 368 00:58:32.870 --> 00:58:34.950 because I think captures more. 369 00:58:35.130 --> 00:58:42.430 what is going on there in this kind of development, in these models of development instead of 370 00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:43.710 so old. 371 00:58:43.900 --> 00:58:45.510 instead of developing. 372 00:58:46.190 --> 00:58:53.470 I don't think it captures what we actually bring as ways of being in the. 373 00:58:53.700 --> 00:58:57.560 So how can we first allow for this 374 00:58:57.600 --> 00:59:00.609 models of development to be seen in a way that is. 375 00:59:00.640 --> 00:59:01.760 and 376 00:59:03.600 --> 00:59:06.019 let's say, 377 00:59:06.200 --> 00:59:12.100 did not develop. That is, that that has something unique, has strength, has creativity. 378 00:59:12.130 --> 00:59:13.630 has. 379 00:59:13.740 --> 00:59:26.299 actually the answers to what is like in. So I see that what Australia has likes in Brazil, what Brazil has like in Australia. All I see, all I see every day is that we need to create dialogue. 380 00:59:27.130 --> 00:59:30.719 So how can we create this dialogue between centers and margins? 381 00:59:30.940 --> 00:59:33.740 I think that that is my main goal, because 382 00:59:34.080 --> 00:59:37.309 it's super important to 383 00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:42.830 unite as a noble South. But also I want us to dialogue with the center. 384 00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.059 I want us to have this based here 385 00:59:45.670 --> 00:59:46.920 show that 386 00:59:47.250 --> 01:00:03.139 we we are not just within ourselves. You know, it's it's not. It's not just a bunch of people from the Southern global South trying to get together and transform things. It's also all this dialogue with the center. 387 01:00:05.330 --> 01:00:13.679 And that's why it's super important for me to create these pathways for epistemological multiculturalism. 388 01:00:15.730 --> 01:00:17.190 especially 389 01:00:17.490 --> 01:00:20.139 inhabiting these positions 390 01:00:20.160 --> 01:00:22.270 in on a everyday basis 391 01:00:22.390 --> 01:00:24.549 as an Australian, as a Brazilian. 392 01:00:24.560 --> 01:00:26.400 married to the culture. 393 01:00:26.460 --> 01:00:37.889 bringing a museum background and seeing how they literally it's a very interesting phenomenon for me in speaking as a body. 394 01:00:37.900 --> 01:00:49.930 I've lived in Spain. I lived in Germany in different societies, but in Australia it was really like I woke up every day, and I felt like my feet were in the roof and my head 395 01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:56.919 was in the floor. I literally had this physical sensation of a complementary opposite that I didn't have it before. 396 01:00:57.010 --> 01:00:59.590 So that's why I think there is a lot of strength. 397 01:00:59.810 --> 01:01:10.759 And it's not by chance they are. I think they are in geographic. very strategic positions to allow for these dialogues to happen in. 398 01:01:11.240 --> 01:01:21.870 you know, create. What can we learn from each other? I I see so much beautiful things happening in the surroundings. There's so much beautiful things happening in you, but because of these biases 399 01:01:22.590 --> 01:01:23.700 that 400 01:01:24.160 --> 01:01:26.380 This 401 01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:33.049 societies should be like developed nations of individually-driven. 402 01:01:34.020 --> 01:01:35.120 mentions 403 01:01:35.940 --> 01:01:44.849 all these strength is not being seen. I got asked all the time in his words. You'll say if he's Brazil, you know I'm not like 404 01:01:46.740 --> 01:01:55.349 you know, I don't ask Australia about the mental health issues. This fragmentation issues the alienation issue. So what if the answer for these issues 405 01:01:55.620 --> 01:02:06.010 that are serious and very tough in this society. The social fragmentation, the social isolation, the level of mental health. 406 01:02:06.450 --> 01:02:15.469 is maybe the answers are in the ways of the politics of care that Brazil is doing for years and years and years, and of many community during societies. 407 01:02:15.610 --> 01:02:16.960 But first we need to 408 01:02:16.970 --> 01:02:23.699 allow this to be seen in a different way in a different way. So that's what I'm coming from. 409 01:02:40.380 --> 01:02:42.790 There's another person in the in 410 01:02:43.100 --> 01:02:44.620 want to do a question. 411 01:02:56.160 --> 01:03:04.530 Good morning. My name is Wesa Boron, and I'm coming from from. The place where we live under the North Star. 412 01:03:05.390 --> 01:03:10.310 Scandinavia, Finland. I'm such a 413 01:03:10.560 --> 01:03:15.440 asking you, Camila, if you have 414 01:03:15.690 --> 01:03:21.380 became familiar with the Nordic discussion about welfare State as being on that Senate. Sit there. 415 01:03:21.540 --> 01:03:23.499 so I need not to 416 01:03:24.230 --> 01:03:30.159 tell something about it. I would not to make some kind of men's planning here. 417 01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:40.910 But but then, what I wanted to ask you was connected to you what you said about in your presentation concerning the feelings 418 01:03:41.120 --> 01:03:43.130 you said that you feel 419 01:03:43.170 --> 01:03:53.679 in your skin or under your skin, to epistemological epistemological. Some kind of contradiction, or some kind of lack 420 01:03:54.110 --> 01:04:01.520 for some kind of uncertainty. And I'm just wondering. 421 01:04:02.080 --> 01:04:10.130 Epistemology is often connected to some kind of traditional rational thinking 422 01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:14.950 questions concerning truth. 423 01:04:15.520 --> 01:04:17.200 etc. 424 01:04:19.350 --> 01:04:34.529 Do you think that this, taking into consideration the feelings or emotions, could be somehow promote or help you to develop some kind of new form of epistemological thinking. 425 01:04:34.620 --> 01:04:35.750 Then 426 01:04:35.900 --> 01:04:45.700 just When you answer the question, you also talk about your positive sensations, that you feel that your head is somewhere and your food are somewhere. 427 01:04:46.060 --> 01:04:50.000 Can you also somehow, maybe, think about the 428 01:04:50.040 --> 01:04:52.850 discontent aspect when when 429 01:04:53.050 --> 01:05:04.969 Developing this thinking? And then one more thing, you said that you are willing to contribute to making of a better world. 430 01:05:05.790 --> 01:05:12.559 By this epistemological, epistemological Considerations! 431 01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:14.600 What about 432 01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:26.120 could it be somehow connecting? bridges, taking into consideration of emotions and but daily sensations, because in any case, we are. 433 01:05:26.650 --> 01:05:32.010 as far as I understand, human beings, which are which have many common 434 01:05:32.520 --> 01:05:35.689 common sensations. For example. 435 01:05:36.460 --> 01:05:43.259 for Mr. Klein, I would like to just and asked, and very simple 436 01:05:43.540 --> 01:05:48.630 question connected to the history of sociology. 437 01:05:48.860 --> 01:05:52.850 You talked about Dolores. 438 01:05:53.860 --> 01:06:03.590 Was it Tolores? Lailia Rotary case? 439 01:06:03.660 --> 01:06:16.720 Excuse me, but I would like to know if Laylia Gonzales had something to do with the other other thinkers in in in Latin America, like Anibal Aquino. 440 01:06:17.200 --> 01:06:24.700 Walter Miniolo Anibal is Peruian, and Walter is from Argentina. 441 01:06:25.050 --> 01:06:27.769 When he was developing this 442 01:06:28.470 --> 01:06:32.070 ideas that you told us about. 443 01:06:32.340 --> 01:06:33.200 Thank you. 444 01:06:38.120 --> 01:06:39.950 Mariana Teixeira: Who wants to go first? 445 01:06:41.070 --> 01:06:43.529 Stefan Klein: Hmm! Should start 446 01:06:43.980 --> 01:06:45.890 Stefan Klein: if she doesn't have anything against. 447 01:06:47.060 --> 01:06:55.060 Thank you for your question. I have been in contact with Nordic 448 01:06:55.110 --> 01:06:57.900 countries, welfare policies, but 449 01:06:58.330 --> 01:07:15.140 not to the point that I feel very knowledgeable about it. I've been to some talks about it on the fields of education. However, it's something that would that, of course, need to get a better understanding of how 450 01:07:15.170 --> 01:07:27.209 it happens. And I'm happy to learn from you. If you want to keep this dialogue. I'm happy to hear from you. I totally agree that phenomenology and the 451 01:07:27.350 --> 01:07:30.000 emotions are a crucial part of this work. 452 01:07:31.930 --> 01:07:34.789 I think that would be, I think 453 01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:40.419 one of the biggest outputs is the creative potential that there is with listening to this. 454 01:07:40.510 --> 01:07:44.839 In the stitual vices of 455 01:07:44.900 --> 01:07:47.510 Australia's, in Brazil and Brazil, and the strangers. 456 01:07:49.030 --> 01:07:52.480 and the feelings 457 01:07:52.860 --> 01:07:57.699 that they bring. I am personally very affectionate of 458 01:07:58.140 --> 01:08:01.930 phenomenological approaches, effective approaches. 459 01:08:02.070 --> 01:08:04.700 So yes, emotions is something that 460 01:08:04.860 --> 01:08:06.509 I don't think I'll cut off 461 01:08:06.860 --> 01:08:14.410 this journey because I am a human being as well with emotions and affections 462 01:08:14.590 --> 01:08:25.899 as a researcher. Every researcher has their narratives and stories, and I'm not neutral. I'm not here pretending not to have one. I have my story as well, and my emotions that come with it. 463 01:08:25.950 --> 01:08:30.559 And regarding the the metaphor of 464 01:08:30.610 --> 01:08:34.310 the foot on the the verve and the head 465 01:08:34.420 --> 01:08:44.780 in the floor. It is interesting many examples in my daily life, like, for example, the different kinds of freedom that I experience in Brazil and Australia. 466 01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:51.429 For example, here I have the freedom of walking and not feeling harassed as a woman. 467 01:08:51.510 --> 01:08:56.210 we only it. It really happens it is really good. 468 01:08:56.750 --> 01:09:00.619 At the same time, in Brazil I have the freedom of 469 01:09:01.010 --> 01:09:02.629 walking on the streets. 470 01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:04.950 and even with the violence. 471 01:09:05.710 --> 01:09:07.130 having 472 01:09:07.210 --> 01:09:11.400 a lot of improvisation and music. 473 01:09:11.510 --> 01:09:15.239 An encounter is happening all the time that I don't have here. 474 01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:22.229 so there are different kinds of freedoms. For example, the coconut is of a real 475 01:09:22.650 --> 01:09:33.360 silly example to me. of how there are different, very diverse politics of care and welfare, and the different kinds of freedom that I can have. For example. 476 01:09:33.640 --> 01:09:45.020 in Australia they deceed coconut trees because of the risk of them following when people dying, so I don't have the freedom of going to the beach and drinking a coconut. 477 01:09:45.190 --> 01:09:47.799 whereas in Brazil there is 478 01:09:48.080 --> 01:09:49.340 the risk of. 479 01:09:49.440 --> 01:09:51.210 you know, violence. 480 01:09:51.300 --> 01:09:54.630 Yeah, there is personally. 481 01:09:54.640 --> 01:09:56.300 I 482 01:09:56.440 --> 01:10:08.609 I it is something that is there. But at the same time I have the freedom of drinking a coconut tree in the the beach, which is something that I don't have here. 483 01:10:08.740 --> 01:10:13.289 So these unique experiences, I think they they are unspoken 484 01:10:13.380 --> 01:10:14.990 of. 485 01:10:15.990 --> 01:10:21.800 Usually they. They ask me about the violence only. but there are also other layers 486 01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:24.519 of freedom and of. 487 01:10:24.820 --> 01:10:26.849 you know, important experiences 488 01:10:26.930 --> 01:10:33.570 that are not only violent, that they there. There is a lot of things that need to be changed, and a lot of things that need to be working 489 01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:42.660 and issues, of course. But there's also a lot of resilience, a lot of creativity and our homic resistance and different kinds of freedoms. 490 01:10:43.280 --> 01:10:49.859 That you know. Very, I would say, complementary opposites. 491 01:10:50.500 --> 01:10:54.969 They need to dialogue. We need to. I think Australia needs to to bring a little bit of 492 01:10:55.110 --> 01:11:09.019 informality or a spontaneous movement, and Brazil needs more population needs more systems to address these issues that. 493 01:11:09.150 --> 01:11:12.580 so so 494 01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:20.609 being in this science, you know. So that's the point that I'm coming from. I I just see a lot of 495 01:11:20.790 --> 01:11:29.660 parallels that are happening all the time. In my daily experience. the way we show emotions is 496 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:31.270 also 497 01:11:31.610 --> 01:11:50.849 different. In Brazil, in Australia, the the understandings of what is the space of the body, the vital space of the body? There is the tendency, for in thinking about a negative extreme in Brazil there is a tendency for an invasive 498 01:11:51.050 --> 01:11:59.300 relationships. In Australia. I see there is a tendency for indifferent relationships. So I think 499 01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:04.030 we need to find these, these, these points of collaboration 500 01:12:04.040 --> 01:12:05.430 in exchange. 501 01:12:05.650 --> 01:12:14.809 because I don't believe in a balanced like perfect society. I even think the war better societies is not a good word. I don't think many 502 01:12:14.910 --> 01:12:21.079 something better because it feels like even self-analizing myself. It feels like 503 01:12:24.100 --> 01:12:25.350 we need to. 504 01:12:25.550 --> 01:12:51.529 It feels like a product to me, a little bit of something that that is manufactured. But I think we need to really learn how to listen. Those wine, the margins, especially indigenous populations, and the technologies that they bring the knowledge that they bring the migrants that I'm in in this spaces in between the margins in order to allow for these conversations to happen. And 505 01:12:52.860 --> 01:12:58.520 and I think that's the 506 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:01.140 that's a response that I would give you. 507 01:13:02.730 --> 01:13:06.980 I'm not looking for better societies. I'm looking for societies that 508 01:13:07.390 --> 01:13:08.900 welcome diversity 509 01:13:09.460 --> 01:13:12.599 for societies that can 510 01:13:13.610 --> 01:13:20.550 see and come and treat humans with equality, with 511 01:13:20.830 --> 01:13:29.690 the intrinsic respect for the Dmiti form, from whatever that whenever they're coming from, and the dialogue between this 512 01:13:29.770 --> 01:13:33.199 pros and cons that every society has 513 01:13:34.130 --> 01:13:38.489 either individually driven societies are not perfect at all 514 01:13:38.540 --> 01:13:46.130 as well, and and there's a romanticism about it. and I think we need to break it. And we need to have the Harmon, as of saying. 515 01:13:46.560 --> 01:13:50.399 when you, when aid to dialogue with societies that 516 01:13:50.450 --> 01:13:51.500 also 517 01:13:52.260 --> 01:13:54.100 having issues 518 01:13:54.190 --> 01:13:59.780 and the the solutions that we might be meeting. You know we need to dialogue with them, because 519 01:13:59.790 --> 01:14:07.529 I don't think their responses will come from individually-driven societies itself. I think we need to dialogue with those who are 520 01:14:07.730 --> 01:14:10.590 in usually marginalizes places. 521 01:14:11.220 --> 01:14:25.689 So that's that's more or less my my rationale and I think emotions are crucial for how to map this. It's not going to be neutral. It's not going to be balanced. It's not going to be perfect. It is far from there. It's just how to 522 01:14:26.480 --> 01:14:27.620 create 523 01:14:27.650 --> 01:14:35.340 spaces for diversity, for welcoming dialogue in symmetric parity positions. 524 01:14:41.840 --> 01:14:43.549 Stefan Klein: Thank you for a question. 525 01:14:44.510 --> 01:14:57.800 Stefan Klein: I I I can straight away tell you that did not engage in a theoretical debate or relationship with these. 526 01:14:57.850 --> 01:15:14.689 Stefan Klein: I think, as you mentioned, neither with the nor with what bottomiol. Obviously, I cannot tell you exactly why she didn't do so. but I can speculate, I think on the one side, they are 527 01:15:14.910 --> 01:15:24.790 Stefan Klein: more or less a contemporary. But when you consider the forms of a knowledge circulation 528 01:15:24.880 --> 01:15:41.749 Stefan Klein: and the fact that Kihano and Miolo also, both of them became better known later in their Sometime after they published the first works 529 01:15:41.760 --> 01:15:59.010 Stefan Klein: it could probably help us at least a part to partially understand that in the 19 seventies, in the 19 eighties, when was putting forward most of her intellectual work 530 01:15:59.010 --> 01:16:15.129 Stefan Klein: she probably did not have enough access to these fingers. I think that this is a hypothesis, I would answer, At the same time, this does not mean that. Gonzalez was not interested 531 01:16:15.220 --> 01:16:28.080 Stefan Klein: in establishing links or engage in dialogue with other Latin American thinkers. On the one side it probably one of the main. 532 01:16:28.280 --> 01:16:34.010 Stefan Klein: It's a was very critical dialogue, but with 2 Brazilian 533 01:16:34.240 --> 01:16:53.399 Stefan Klein: social scientists or economists to free on the one side and on the other side, and especially because of the debates on the myth of racial democracy that I I mentioned. 534 01:16:53.530 --> 01:17:03.399 Stefan Klein: and there was another Argentina intellectual? it's curious, because 535 01:17:04.190 --> 01:17:22.649 Stefan Klein: it contrary to Giano and me all of, for example, is not a at least in the Brazilian context. think of that has been that much red from the 19 seventies onwards. But he had a contribution towards 536 01:17:23.830 --> 01:17:46.349 Stefan Klein: reinterpreting, critically reinterpreting some Marxist categories for the dependent that context. And so at the moment, that's lever, Gonzalez was putting forward some of her work. And this is also why I highlighted this critical relationship with some of the Marxist 537 01:17:46.430 --> 01:18:02.560 Stefan Klein: categories and concepts and with the Marx framework he became a relevant intellectual to to establish this mediation. So to not simply through a way. 538 01:18:02.570 --> 01:18:32.500 Stefan Klein: categories like exploitation or surplus value, etc. But trying to understand them in a dependence or peripheral context. So we, I can mentioned lead at least these, all those at the same time. And she also engaged in this critical dialogue with call marks, it's already said with with in a 539 01:18:32.630 --> 01:19:00.969 Stefan Klein: more indirect way with Hegel, for example, and with other Brazilian, and and also the Brazilian black intellectuals, as I also mentioned. I'm just do the not the main to etc. So it's not that let it go, that it was working a part, obviously, from other intellectuals. But I think we have to the ones you can consider 540 01:19:01.470 --> 01:19:17.010 Stefan Klein: the possibilities and forms of circulation of ideas and concepts at that time. but also the fact that this is another reason why, at the beginning I mentioned 541 01:19:17.010 --> 01:19:25.969 Stefan Klein: the the difference disciplines that that are going to be studied. And why? I propose to understand her work 542 01:19:25.970 --> 01:19:48.010 Stefan Klein: as a form of critical theory, because she was not worried. If she was doing anthropology, or sociology, or philosophy or history, she was more interested in guaranteeing that it was that she was presenting a rigorous and relevant concept for us to critically understand 543 01:19:48.010 --> 01:20:16.329 Stefan Klein: the source of formations. And specially in this case, the Brazilian. And when she talks about a mythicality. It's especially an idea to a a new concept that she developed to try to understand the American context. So she's trying to distance herself from the specificity of Latin America or of South America, mainly not only, but mainly 544 01:20:16.330 --> 01:20:41.330 Stefan Klein: because of the the historical background of different forms of enslavement. When I come back to the I come back to the first question about the difference or difference between Australia and Brazil. Sometimes people I get the same in relation to Canada, but I think it's very similar. You probably did not have exactly the same forms 545 01:20:41.330 --> 01:21:10.230 Stefan Klein: of enslavement as you had in the U.S.A. As you had in Brazil but you have a but you have a documentation about many a native peoples that also, as a Camilla mentioned, we're dispossessed, and we're driven away from where, from the the Territory. In in other ways the problem not necessarily were enslaved the same way that, 546 01:21:10.260 --> 01:21:40.160 Stefan Klein: relevance part of the black population that was brought from different to African countries and African territories was. But still We can talk about this in this form of historical backgrounds of exploiting other people's. And this is something that's also trying to emphasize as a relevant background. For 547 01:21:40.160 --> 01:21:57.919 Stefan Klein: although there are obviously particularities, but there's also some form of similarity or shared experience in the American context. That? Why, that's also why she's talking about the Murphy Kennedy. So going beyond the idea of 548 01:21:57.920 --> 01:22:10.329 Stefan Klein: simply nation states, but also going beyond a divide between South America and North America or Latin America and the rest of North America. 549 01:22:10.330 --> 01:22:17.039 Stefan Klein: I don't know if I answered accordingly. But this is my take on your interesting question. Thank you. 550 01:22:22.610 --> 01:22:27.889 Mariana Teixeira: I would like also to pose a question for each, and I speaker? 551 01:22:28.140 --> 01:22:30.300 Mariana Teixeira: I I 552 01:22:30.440 --> 01:22:37.260 Mariana Teixeira: perhaps Stephan has already answered a little bit of my question in this last 553 01:22:37.270 --> 01:22:39.070 Mariana Teixeira: answer that he gave. 554 01:22:39.080 --> 01:22:50.760 Mariana Teixeira: but I wanted to. I was very interested in this idea of this imminent critique. also of Marxism. So this critical engagement with Marxist categories 555 01:22:51.030 --> 01:22:53.070 Mariana Teixeira: and 556 01:22:53.360 --> 01:23:01.500 Mariana Teixeira: one of them, for example, that she employees is this critique of ideology. But she you also mentioned that she 557 01:23:01.590 --> 01:23:12.509 Mariana Teixeira: that consists is is pretty, and criticizes the lack of reflections about racism and sexism within. Marxism. 558 01:23:12.760 --> 01:23:14.559 Mariana Teixeira: but 559 01:23:14.650 --> 01:23:20.720 so my question would be if you could talk a little bit more about that, and whether 560 01:23:21.080 --> 01:23:24.550 Mariana Teixeira: it would be for her a matter of 561 01:23:24.650 --> 01:23:35.840 Mariana Teixeira: applying Marxist access framework in, not in an orthodox way. But the Max is framework also for this other 562 01:23:35.950 --> 01:23:40.420 Mariana Teixeira: situations. Are these other dimensions of reality? 563 01:23:40.500 --> 01:23:56.929 Mariana Teixeira: Or should should the Marxist framework be somehow changed? in its core? Because of this other dimensions of reality that have to be taken account. So that 564 01:23:57.090 --> 01:24:02.399 Mariana Teixeira: so it's a matter of how much it does Maxism 565 01:24:02.620 --> 01:24:04.149 still have a group 566 01:24:04.190 --> 01:24:20.159 Mariana Teixeira: on on the the social reality of a place like Brazil or America. where these dimensions are so Vivid and important to to take account of. 567 01:24:20.500 --> 01:24:31.649 Mariana Teixeira: So if you could talk a little bit more about that, and if I'm I'm also interested in the notion of 568 01:24:31.720 --> 01:24:36.080 Mariana Teixeira: if you could also talk a little bit more about that, because I think it's 569 01:24:36.140 --> 01:24:43.090 Mariana Teixeira: very important that you brought this father to discussion in this event. And 570 01:24:43.140 --> 01:24:51.309 Mariana Teixeira: if you could give voice a little bit more to one of her most important concepts, which is. 571 01:24:51.330 --> 01:24:54.640 Mariana Teixeira: and if we can see it would be very nice. 572 01:24:55.610 --> 01:25:01.860 Mariana Teixeira: And to Camila I share your anguish about 573 01:25:01.900 --> 01:25:04.629 Mariana Teixeira: these ways of categorizing 574 01:25:05.370 --> 01:25:17.210 Mariana Teixeira: countries in regions of the world, for the reasons that you already mentioned. but also because many of the ways that we characterize them? 575 01:25:17.460 --> 01:25:19.800 Mariana Teixeira: To imply that 576 01:25:19.940 --> 01:25:26.749 Mariana Teixeira: they, their fates, their their destinies, or the the the reality that they have. 577 01:25:26.870 --> 01:25:30.349 Mariana Teixeira: are to independence realities. So 578 01:25:30.360 --> 01:25:47.380 Mariana Teixeira: one part is developed and the other one is under developed. But there's no relations. So it it it invisibility that some countries are developed because they have 579 01:25:47.540 --> 01:25:55.830 Mariana Teixeira: colonized and explored, exploited in the still do 580 01:25:55.850 --> 01:26:11.929 Mariana Teixeira: in the international division of labor. retain the richness of this other part of the world to death in other forms of 581 01:26:12.040 --> 01:26:31.480 Mariana Teixeira: exploitation less direct than they were before. In the times when colonialism was happening in the formal, jurtical way, like a legal way, so to speak, but they still profit from the exploitation of other countries and other realities. 582 01:26:31.760 --> 01:26:38.260 Mariana Teixeira: So I I thought it was interesting the how you 583 01:26:38.270 --> 01:26:40.770 Mariana Teixeira: the proposal of calling them 584 01:26:40.890 --> 01:26:46.479 Mariana Teixeira: yeah, individual, individually driven and community-driven. 585 01:26:46.680 --> 01:26:57.689 Mariana Teixeira: But wouldn't that also, have the risk of turning opaque the relationship between these 586 01:26:57.820 --> 01:27:05.060 Mariana Teixeira: this portions of the world. I understand that you want to bring them in dialogue, and I think that's important, too. 587 01:27:05.230 --> 01:27:08.729 Mariana Teixeira: But without perhaps 588 01:27:09.210 --> 01:27:14.120 Mariana Teixeira: living aside this exploitative relation that still happens. 589 01:27:14.400 --> 01:27:34.970 Mariana Teixeira: in the world. Not and I I don't. I wouldn't say anything. I don't have anything to say about specifically Brazil in Australia as as individual countries. But we can think of this North South develop and under developed distinctions also 590 01:27:35.060 --> 01:27:40.550 Mariana Teixeira: in this way. Right? So how could you account for that? 591 01:27:40.800 --> 01:27:41.470 You? 592 01:27:44.450 --> 01:27:46.820 Stefan Klein: So we have. We have another question there. 593 01:27:48.990 --> 01:27:52.470 Yeah, we have a question from the audience. 594 01:27:53.550 --> 01:27:58.339 if there's enough time, I don't know what the for short or anything. 595 01:28:00.450 --> 01:28:06.470 Mariana Teixeira: We have 15 min. So yes, I can maybe ask for question, and then both authors can. 596 01:28:07.330 --> 01:28:12.289 Okay, if there's if if it's okay, my question is for Camila. 597 01:28:12.300 --> 01:28:25.889 the idea I I really resonated with me as well as someone who's also moved from a developed country to a developing country and the experience of the difference between the 2. 598 01:28:25.910 --> 01:28:32.060 And I was wondering you said you were going to study welfare systems specifically as a kind of. 599 01:28:32.170 --> 01:28:42.810 I guess, a reflection of these different sort of community. ideas. But so much of it is cultural or or social as well, so is is welfare. 600 01:28:42.870 --> 01:28:54.350 Enough to capture that difference, the welfare systems? Or or can you go beyond that? Perhaps a little bit more like in the difference I've noticed between the Us. And Turkey where I live. 601 01:28:54.360 --> 01:29:12.149 us has like 0 welfare, basically a super individualistic. That's very accurate. Turkey is definitely a lot more communal, but in terms of welfare it's very mixed. there's a good sort of healthcare system generally, but then not much, for, like 602 01:29:12.570 --> 01:29:28.670 maternity leave, or children's support or care for the elderly. Most of that is is left to families. They still see the family as very like a central institution for providing those kind of services rather than the state. So I was just wondering if maybe 603 01:29:29.220 --> 01:29:36.600 yeah, if welfare, I guess welfare systems is sufficient to capture those differences. Or, if you can think, you know, beyond that, perhaps 604 01:29:36.800 --> 01:29:37.640 thanks. 605 01:29:42.100 --> 01:29:52.279 Stefan Klein: It's okay with Camille. I think I'll start. So she that's just one question. Okay? Then you, you have time to think about your answers, because you have more questions than I do. 606 01:29:54.390 --> 01:29:56.060 Yeah. 607 01:29:56.090 --> 01:29:59.240 I'm pillar from Spain, from the south of Spain. 608 01:29:59.460 --> 01:30:08.300 So, Camilla, I wanted to say something about the dialogue that you were asking for. 609 01:30:08.680 --> 01:30:17.499 I mean, I like, and I share your intention. but your idea. But I think the relationship 610 01:30:17.540 --> 01:30:21.550 between the center and the margins is a 611 01:30:21.830 --> 01:30:24.800 relationship related to with power. 612 01:30:25.060 --> 01:30:36.270 Empower, you know, to if you want to transform the relationship between, you know the center and the periphery. 613 01:30:36.300 --> 01:30:48.820 You need to dialogue. Yeah, you will. But you also will need that people in the center or women in the center and working in about intersectionality. 614 01:30:48.910 --> 01:30:57.279 Women in the third, in the center or people in the center have to recognize that this 615 01:30:57.330 --> 01:30:59.080 power relationship. 616 01:30:59.230 --> 01:31:05.340 If they do not recognize this. the dialogue will not be possible. 617 01:31:05.930 --> 01:31:19.929 and one of the things that you have said that really I like it, and I think Marxists have never seen. And this is why I don't like a lot. The the the the. It's because 618 01:31:19.950 --> 01:31:23.780 they have never seen the life 619 01:31:24.040 --> 01:31:28.380 mean? We are women in the marching, really their body 620 01:31:28.390 --> 01:31:30.640 and the creativity. 621 01:31:31.110 --> 01:31:35.259 And this is something that we have to, you know, to 622 01:31:35.450 --> 01:31:43.710 to put in to value the creativity of the Martian. 623 01:31:44.180 --> 01:32:12.869 And this is something that we can maybe use just to convince people that to go and farther in a wall, we will need a lot of creativity in order to organize our societies in another way. If not, the planet will not survive. I mean, this is something I just was thinking about. Thank you. 624 01:32:15.410 --> 01:32:17.279 Do you want to begin, Stefan? 625 01:32:17.480 --> 01:32:22.949 Stefan Klein: Yes, thanks. Coming on. thank you for your questions. 626 01:32:23.190 --> 01:32:28.300 Stefan Klein: starting with the first one. I think 627 01:32:28.390 --> 01:32:55.020 Stefan Klein: I'll we'll we'll points more directly to in concerning the the critical dialogue. Negation with Marx's categories. It to Holy Lagos is identified. And I mean, this was something that also happened. For example, in the European context. how women's work and domestic work wasn't taken into consideration. It's contributing towards 628 01:32:55.020 --> 01:33:04.099 Stefan Klein: production. But she also she did take this into account, but she also 629 01:33:04.100 --> 01:33:25.700 Stefan Klein: already looked at it. under the combination of sexism and racism. So said, Okay, we had we. This was something that happened in the context where the Marxist categories and concepts were originally formulated. But it was reproduced 630 01:33:25.700 --> 01:33:35.920 Stefan Klein: a under other circumstances, in the Brazilian context, for example. So it's like she. She also pointed out that well, there was a chance 631 01:33:35.920 --> 01:34:04.840 Stefan Klein: to. We interpret Marxism in a critical way, and it's did not. Well, we we cannot simply say that this chance was not this possibility, that it's alternative was not used, but it was not used in the best way, so to say. So, she said, Okay, the the the Marxist reception in the Latin, American, or specifically in the Brazilian context that already develops something 632 01:34:04.840 --> 01:34:10.160 Stefan Klein: critique of the Marxist concept, but still 633 01:34:10.240 --> 01:34:29.290 Stefan Klein: took some of them and put them into action in the same way, and should have criticized more. This one aspect and the other aspect is more directly linked to the concept of class as a central concept. So There's an 634 01:34:29.900 --> 01:34:42.379 Stefan Klein: a book chapter by Alex Hutz and Flavor. He's they're probably the most relevant interpreters of letter Gonzales in in Brazil, and they point out 635 01:34:42.380 --> 01:35:06.449 Stefan Klein: how, on some level she long other intellectuals was somehow or had an intersectional perspective on all that, because the the intersection. The concept of intersectionality had not been formulated. But The way she looked at the concept was very similar in that she did not 636 01:35:06.470 --> 01:35:16.809 Stefan Klein: once again considered that the concept of a class of work was irrelevant. But it's class had to be combined with 637 01:35:16.810 --> 01:35:39.640 Stefan Klein: aspects of race. A slash caller as well as with aspect of at the time she wrote she she still was talking about sex and a gender. We would talk about gender today, but still that we had to combine and articulate these different concepts. So it's it's also an interesting aspect. At the same time, I think. 638 01:35:39.640 --> 01:36:02.930 Stefan Klein: when looking at first, when still talking about capitalism, I think this was something very important to to to that Gonzales. And when we look at other sociological or in the broader sense and social sciences. interpretations, explanations. Many of them do not consider the concept of capitalism that relevance. 639 01:36:03.090 --> 01:36:25.920 Stefan Klein: We can say this about system theory, for example, on one extreme example. But we we have other alternatives as well. And so she stick to the concept of capitalism. It was important to her, but also to the concept of exploitation, of contradiction and of ideology. So it was more a matter of 640 01:36:25.920 --> 01:36:37.590 Stefan Klein: how these concepts can be reinterpreted or reframed to, so to still be able to to suit and contribute towards a critical 641 01:36:37.660 --> 01:36:57.819 Stefan Klein: explanation, but also criticizing them. Imminent, Going to the concept of moving forward the concept of of me? I must admit that I'm still struggling to completely understand it, because I think it's a very a revolutionary concept. But I'll 642 01:36:57.820 --> 01:37:14.890 Stefan Klein: stick here to point out one aspect. That's a called my my attention. That is the fact that and the is A tells this in in more than one over more or less biographical, either interviews or statements, that 643 01:37:14.920 --> 01:37:31.620 Stefan Klein: She had a. Her mother had an indigenous background, and she had a black father, and I think, one at the same time. This helped her to. look at this historical 644 01:37:31.860 --> 01:37:47.189 Stefan Klein: social formation that was seen as Brazil as a very multifaceted or as maybe how it's often talked about as a multicultural context. she also. 645 01:37:47.210 --> 01:38:00.420 Stefan Klein: was trying to. Not simply consider that one should go back, for example, in the case of the black population to African roots. 646 01:38:00.530 --> 01:38:03.799 Stefan Klein: because she was saying, okay. The 647 01:38:04.530 --> 01:38:29.800 Stefan Klein: Camille already pointed out the fact that in Brazil differently, for example, from the U.S.A. Or, as you mentioned, from in the in comparison to to Australia. We do not have that much documentation on these families where they came from in the African continent, etc. It's a big issue in terms of memory in terms of historical reconstruction. But still, even if there was. 648 01:38:29.800 --> 01:38:47.909 Stefan Klein: it's pointed out that these African countries, or societies or territories, they are not the same as they were in let's say, 3 or 4 centuries ago. So she's also point out there is no going back to that time 649 01:38:47.910 --> 01:38:56.660 Stefan Klein: she's more worried about. Okay, how did these cultural and historical backgrounds contribute towards 650 01:38:56.780 --> 01:39:07.189 Stefan Klein: constituting the on the one side the Brazilian society. But a Mexicanity, in a wider sense. So she's trying. Yes. 651 01:39:07.340 --> 01:39:26.690 Stefan Klein: okay, and sorry to interrupt you. But I'm being told by the technical support here that we have to finish sharp. That's okay. I'll wrap it up to a person over to to Camila. And so she's only trying to emphasize that. we have to look at how these 652 01:39:26.690 --> 01:39:47.319 Stefan Klein: the African societies, or, if you can, it in a wide sense, is formed at the moment. She's right in this contemporary context, and not always looking backwards. But trying to see. Okay, how? What are these contemporary societies constituted by this historical legacy? So to say, thank you. 653 01:39:48.889 --> 01:39:51.059 Mariana Teixeira: Things you're in. 654 01:39:51.299 --> 01:40:06.200 I'll be very brief. thank you for the questions as well. The historical dimensions of this forms of exploitation. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, is the starting point of the way. 655 01:40:06.840 --> 01:40:09.709 It's impossible to disconnect that. 656 01:40:09.959 --> 01:40:16.139 so maybe because of time and 657 01:40:16.290 --> 01:40:19.270 go okay. constraints. 658 01:40:19.280 --> 01:40:25.359 this is, it's impossible. As you highlight it so well money, and to 659 01:40:26.090 --> 01:40:27.230 ignore 660 01:40:27.320 --> 01:40:32.430 how this process of these processes of colonization and exploitation 661 01:40:32.490 --> 01:40:48.529 are embedded within this notions of developed developing. Third and first and the consequences of this processes of colonization. I think it's something that we all right. It's it's something that is 662 01:40:48.879 --> 01:40:51.250 for at least 663 01:40:51.840 --> 01:40:59.480 community-driven countries. It's something that is so so reinforced 664 01:40:59.549 --> 01:41:08.480 into your everyday thinking that it's already a starting point. So because of the the the Baconian approach. 665 01:41:08.570 --> 01:41:12.559 I I can never exclude power from this dialogue. 666 01:41:13.209 --> 01:41:16.010 Power is is happening through knowledge. 667 01:41:16.230 --> 01:41:25.199 and the creation of knowledge impacts on the way that we produce is enact on societies, and how to create an ethics of self 668 01:41:25.240 --> 01:41:30.860 that allows for different ways of being so. Also responding to pillar. 669 01:41:32.660 --> 01:41:34.880 I do believe that 670 01:41:35.040 --> 01:41:52.579 I don't have the answer for all the problems. I cannot solve everything. I'm not proposing, like the magic ballot that will solve all the problems. What I want with bringing these historical historical dimensions, bringing this exploitation and through this genealogy that I want to do, of how this. 671 01:41:52.650 --> 01:42:07.980 how we came up to these concerts and developing models. It is to highlight. What I want to. Highlight is maybe if we change the way we call it, maybe if we just start changing that as 672 01:42:08.010 --> 01:42:11.550 as a way of knowledge. We already have 673 01:42:11.700 --> 01:42:14.610 different ways of thinking and acting 674 01:42:14.880 --> 01:42:20.540 to produce knowledge and different relationships of power that can come with these forms of knowledge 675 01:42:20.970 --> 01:42:23.860 there are less biased. 676 01:42:23.990 --> 01:42:34.900 and I'm not sure if I have the perfect solution as well. I'm trying in the trialing how this is going to happen. And in dialogue with 677 01:42:35.490 --> 01:42:38.249 your question, David, isn't 678 01:42:38.390 --> 01:42:40.140 Jeremy? Yeah. 679 01:42:40.570 --> 01:43:06.009 yeah, I think I'm not sure as well if welfare is the best way to capture that I question myself that At the same time, I think it is very interesting, since I think both countries could, and developing and developed, or individually driven in community oring could benefit from this interface in the sections. However, if the migrant voices 680 01:43:06.550 --> 01:43:07.500 could. 681 01:43:07.710 --> 01:43:14.240 I'll articulate that I think that would be much more interesting to capture that from their lens. 682 01:43:14.410 --> 01:43:23.540 What are the differences that they are bringing? I I hear a lot of Brazilians here. They say I I like, because there is this. This is a security. 683 01:43:23.730 --> 01:43:37.990 and you know probably that will come up in the processes of talking and dialogue with these voices in between. And I think that might be an even more interesting place for me in terms of 684 01:43:38.390 --> 01:43:42.460 research more creative, more exciting. 685 01:43:42.590 --> 01:43:46.650 At the same time, I am concerned about 686 01:43:50.860 --> 01:43:58.299 policies that are framing that. So I I don't know if I'll let that go, because it's an immense territory of a lot of 687 01:43:58.720 --> 01:44:06.169 theoretical work. Maybe I need partners. Collaborations. I don't know, but I do agree. I have this question as well. 688 01:44:06.230 --> 01:44:17.709 and I think maybe the dialogue with voices in between is more powerful than necessarily framing it through the lens of welfare systems. 689 01:44:18.450 --> 01:44:20.770 And yeah, thank you. 690 01:44:22.020 --> 01:44:24.259 They keep us in that way. 691 01:44:24.300 --> 01:44:28.849 Mariana Teixeira: You have another session to present. 692 01:44:29.970 --> 01:44:33.700 Thank you very much for both presenters. Thank you. 693 01:44:36.840 --> 01:44:45.250 Mariana Teixeira: Thank you, Kamila, for help. 694 01:44:50.230 --> 01:44:59.869 Mariana Teixeira: Okay, so that's it. the last session of the Rc. 35. Thank you, Stefan, also. And we'll see 695 01:44:59.890 --> 01:45:06.679 Mariana Teixeira: hopefully, you will see each other again at the next conference, preferably in person this time. 696 01:45:06.690 --> 01:45:08.150 Mariana Teixeira: Thank you very much. 697 01:45:08.160 --> 01:45:10.200 Stefan Klein: Thank you. Bye. 698 01:45:11.500 --> 01:45:12.000 the