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What is this session? Call?  Hi, everyone. It's just on time. So let's make a start. welcome today to housing inequality in Australia and New Zealand.

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My name is Katherine Hastings, and before we start I'd just like to acknowledge the fact that we're on the lands of the coolant nation and pay respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge that this land was not seeded.

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and that at the moment there's opportunities for us to engage with conversations about what

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indigenous sovereignty in Australia may look like, and how we can

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work with indigenous peoples to change their both their material circumstances, but also their political power, their authority over their own lives.

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and all those things which make such a difference to

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who we are and how we can move forward together as a people in Australia.

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 we have 4 speakers today. Each speaker will have 20 min. If you could save questions and comments to the end. There will be, then, an opportunity to ask questions of everybody.

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So our first speaker today is Greta Warner from the University of Sydney, who will be speaking on boundaries between private and public, in the construction of limits, on social housing in Sydney, Australia.

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Welcome!

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How do I make it go? It's it's it's just Hello, space for

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okay. So yeah. So I'm going to be talking about the boundaries between private and public housing.

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In Sydney and

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This is actually part of a bigger study, that where I was comparing Sydney and Vienna in Sydney, we've got 4.7%, and it's gone down, I think, since then of public housing, of of households and public housing in Vienna. It was 50% in 2021. When I started in 2,017, it was 60%. So it is going down quite quickly. But

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but yeah, Today, I'm not going to be talking about that. I'm just going to be talking about Sydney. So the boundaries between private and public housing provision have changed over time, and have undergone a process of stratification, and creating a variety of stages and combinations between commodification and decommodification.

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and in this process public housing, provision has contracted targeting an ever more narrowly defined population, while new types of housing provision, such as community housing shared equity, have emerged and

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funded from a combination of government charity and for-profit sources. So There is nothing new to most of you but The Commonwealth Housing Commission was formed in 1,943, and provided loans to the States to construct publicly owned rental housing from 1,945

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and During 1945, for example, 26.1% of all dwellings completed in Australia were built by State housing authorities.

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and then from 1,956, the the State Commonwealth, State Housing agreements shift focus to more home ownership, and that meant that tenants were actually able to buy the homes in which they lived. And this was a strong bipartisan emphasis on home ownership. In in the sixties, as it was considered a shield against Communism.

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so in the 1970 S. The Henderson Inquiry into Poverty highlighted the plight of marginalized grips.

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and subsequently public housing is redirected to accommodate people with more urgent need, and this policy led to a decline in the rental income from public housing, and it no longer covered the costs of the State housing authorities.

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and the steady reduction in funding of public housing is facilitated a restructuring process whereby community housing provision has increased in prominence, and the term social housing started to be used. And we've got Darcy, in 90 99, publishing a paper about you know, social housing, how the new term has just come about and what that means.

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So more recently, the term affordable housing starts to be used, and that some refers to a type of housing that's below the market rate. But it's still actually not affordable for people who are on the lowest income. So it's sort of more for for what we call key workers, such as teachers, nurses, and police, and so on.

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So what I'm trying to do in this study is link the symbolic work of stigmatization with the intended effects there of. And I'm asking who constructs the boundaries between private private and public how they accomplish this task, and how they maintain these boundaries over time, and who benefits

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so

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methods. So I've I've identified key organizations. And then I did. 21 semi-structured interviews in

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in Sydney, and also the same amount in Vienna, and that that was with you know, government, not for profit, and all the different types of organisations in the field.

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So.

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yeah. So the study explores the spatial and material impacts of symbolic processes, such as stigmatization

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and stigmatization, represents a type of symbolic power working to reinforce the social space and and the distribution, and it limits the distribution of goods, such as housing

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Social space is created by a field of power. As Borgia says, the domination of space is one of the privileged forms of the exercise of domination.

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So and typically the State acts as the central bank of symbolic capital. So which is symbolic power. and those who dominate the field, such as the corporate media, and so on, use it to create the conditions for accumulation.

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And they're able to make categorizations.

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And so those who have the cultural capital and authority

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to plan, design and build the urban infrastructure are able to shape how we live.

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and by those categorizations I mean things like planning, and Those kinds of powers that the that the State has So

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According to Baju, I mean a lot of you will know this, but, according to Bajer, Field is a structured set of positions, each with varying access access to power, and each position cultivates a habitus which provides a horizon for the strategies and actions of individuals.

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So

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uncovering the structural effects of stigma, encourages a focus on the political economy of stigmatization, according to Parker and Aggleton.

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and this reveals the beneficiaries of the stigmatization. In this case landowners and and property developers, and so on. So as is shown in some of the quotes that that that you'll see from this study the public housing and public housing tenants are often referred to as problematic. And so this is an accepted fact.

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rather than being a valued judgment, and this may be intentional or unintentional, but it is a field feel effect of the field, so Procter and sheaving Have shown how social inequality can be constructed intentionally to support a discourse of austerity and cost cutting of government, and they explain how stigmatization, stigmatizing discourse leads to practices that limit government spending

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on social and public housing. And this study supports their their findings as well. So

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so

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 okay. So housing solidarity. This is sort of where we start, I guess, with the Commonwealth Housing

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Commission in 1,944, and they The Commonwealth Housing Commission's first report actually stated that every citizen has a right to a dwelling of good standard, and this was in 1,944. So

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since then, though over time, the official discourse shifts to charity and volunteerism.

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so solidarity produces an obligation to help others, and is identified by Jess it as a form of meta-governance in its role within the welfare state.

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So that's that's according to Jessup and Prane sack and view defines solidarity as enacted commitments to accept costs to assist others with home. A personal person's recognized similarity and a relevant respect. Now, obviously, the the types of commitments to others in in the welfare state is is a very sort of broad idea of who others are.

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 But yeah, there are a number of theorists who said that you feel that that's the underpinning of of the welfare state. I guess the the sort of more broader welfare state which you know we heard earlier, that that it's changing to more of a sort of asset. I asset welfare state. So. so you know, I don't know. I guess in that case solidarity is extended to other people who own assets.

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yeah. But so

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the activities of the State in funding, regulating, legislating for housing, provision, rely on political support. Obviously among constituents, even if minimal and stigma power works on constituents to legitimise the appropriation of resources that would otherwise be shared. So

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mit

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sorry

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it it reduces support for social housing. Okay, so

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so then, so what? What what we see is we? We're going from this sort of more solidaristic Support for social housing, to being ever more stigmatized

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And now, what we see is that of the organisations receiving funding from the Social and Affordable Housing Fund in 2,019, most Christian churches, and otherwise they're registered charities. So and that that was communities and justice website. And in 2,019

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churches and charities are thought to better supervise tenants.

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According to one of my participants, an executive from a small bank, that sort of helps finance, social housing.

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So, while solidarity is associated with an egalitarian discourse.

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This charity frame tends to set up more hierarchical relationships

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and efforts to build so housing solidarity

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meet with fierce defence of private housing in the context of material and symbolic regimes of land ownership and industry, so that undermines both social housing and solidarity in the process.

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And

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Another example is a research participant who worked for a government housing organization, who claimed that people need to be prevented from falling into the cycle of going into State-owned social housing, because that, to me is the worst possible outcome compared to staying in private and private ownership one day.

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so that there's there. There's quite so from people who are either in government or have some kind of control over. social housing provision, or at least they're working with within that field.

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now, there's also a punitive attitude to people on low incomes who are living in social housing and community housing providers. do a big tenants, obviously as as do public providers as well. But One of the another, one of the participants said that You've got to make a choice, and if you want to go and spend it on ice or other sorts of things.

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those are the trusses you make, and you need to take some responsibility. It's a mutual responsibility. So this was also an executive of a community housing provider.

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But the punitive approach actually includes Government's relationships with the Ch. But the community housing providers as well, and the government contracts are set up to include abatements for low tenant satisfaction and for cases where tenants don't participate in support programs.

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 so the material effects

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 the material facts are basically that as public housing becomes more targeted, it becomes stigmatized, and then the funds are withdrawn over time, and the official discourse shifts to charity and volunteerism. That's sort of summing that up

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so

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 So in this paper. I'm talking about luminality, and that's sort of I guess, showing that the sort of the the boundary is is really quite lumpy like there, there's there's a lot of different kind of including ad hoc solutions and

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and all different kinds of responses. And yeah, and and plus, they're shifting over time as well. So

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and yeah, so the so the categories between public and private are quite varied. So  and each liminal type of housing is subject to different types of discursive control and regulation and subsidies, and they also shift

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 over time. So, for example, housing advocates, such as tenants. New South Wales characterize community housing is a type of privatisation from which tenants don't necessarily benefit, and an analysis of the tenancy tribunal cases shows that community housing providers, evict tenants at a higher rate than housing department than the housing department does.

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and this was from Darcy, 2,019, which also accords with the experience of a director of a community organisation that I interviewed, who said.

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I'm sorry, but the community Housing providers are the biggest litigants in the tenancy tribunal.

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What does that tell you? Have they lost sight of their social good?

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So a conflict between the imperative to help those in need and other goals such as financial strategies seem to be taking place. So several housing activists interviewed for this study were concerned that the interests of the community housing providers weren't aligning as well with the interests of their of their tenants

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and but one of the reasons why the community housing providers under a financial pressure is that the the tenants have very, very low incomes, and it's difficult to pay for the overheads. And you know of the nonprofit organizations managing the tenancies and the maintenance of the dwellings themselves. If the organization has to rely only on the income of the the tenancies

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 and this this dynamic has also been

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Observed internationally, as a study of property transfers on New Orleans shows by this was arena in 2,012 found that less properties were provided to the most needy after they were transferred out of government control.

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so to meet their financial goals. Many chps also offer affordable housing, and this is where affordable housing comes in

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and they're allowed to charge higher rents for the affordable housing.

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and and this is more attractive for the housing providers, as it enables expansion through debt, finance based on the income that they receive. So, while still not for profit, affordable housing allows those organisations who provide it to employ more sort of commercial practices to grow their stock of housing, and

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they are under a lot of pressure to grow their stock of housing, because they, you know, is this a whole discourse of supply that there's not enough housing supply? as a lot of you are very aware of. So there are. Several government supported shared equity programs. This is also sort of in the lemonore space such as keystart and Western Australia, homestead in South Australia.

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And Victoria, Queensland, Tasmania also have shared equity programs, and then also New South Wales. shared equity home by a helper scheme has been available. From this year 2023. But it is, and it's got very strict eligibility. Requirements

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now shared equity schemes. Enable the division of the value of a dwelling between more than one legal entity.

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and this type of housing provision is the closest to the private housing, and is therefore subject to the least amount of stigma, and so the boundary between public and private housing in Sydney thus varies on a case by K spaces, and there's some sort of ad hoc things happening as well

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for individual projects such as there's a women's housing. program where? Well, someone's built 3 of 4 apartments, and The the thing is that people need to contribute $150,000

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to to be part of that, and then they get that $150,000 back with interest if they if they leave that house and that again very sort of ad hoc. So

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in conclusion, there's symbolic boundaries between public and private ownership seem to be acting like a nurse, and they're tightening around the public housing and leading to a spectrum of liminal housing types such as community housing, philanthropic housing projects, shared equity arrangements, and so on, and each shift of the boundary towards

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Private ownership expands the capital accumulation through property development and rent. So solidaristic discourses in support of decommodification can resist this logic and aim to expand direct investment in housing provision by this State.

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Thanks.

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It's very much

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our next thing was Jessica.

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So But her presentation is housing and qualities in

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insides on the law of racism.

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discrimination, and thanks very much.

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Hello, everyone. It's nice to see you a full room. Don't realize there are so many people here. So thanks for sticking around. And thanks Catherine for chairing this session. It's lovely to be here.

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Yeah. So my name's Jessica. I work at the University of Waikato in New Zealand and in the short presentation I want to share some information about, and some insight into, a survey based research project that we're currently conducting. it's entitled Residential choices and constraints and looks into people's housing experiences with a specific focus on racism and discrimination, but also going beyond that.

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And so, yeah, we've been talking a lot about this in these sessions on housing and and in this presentation just now as well. So I just want to say that the study we are conducting is set against a backdrop of a so-called housing crisis.

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so we see this internationally right. You might all be familiar with it, and the crisis you come from, and even though

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we have this kind of crisis rhetoric, which I always think suggests a somewhat acute state. It seems actually that housing

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or problems in the housing market have become very much a a chronic condition that is far reaching, and affects a lot of people. So you know, you are talking about affordable housing for key workers with some similar New Zealand around kiwi build, which really in a way, reaches more than middle classes rather than people in severe housing need.

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And

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but so what we also see in these conditions is the idea of generation rent, so declining home ownership that more and more people are renting for longer in the situation where we're still considered a home owner, society, right, with lots of benefits for home owners and and power to landlords, and so forth, with growing wait list on public housing. All of those things around affordability and quality. And I think this

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quote, which is actually from the survey, sums it up quite nicely. It's quite.

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We have a lot of evidence around the racialized inequities. So even though the crisis is far-reaching.

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affects different population groups very differently. We have just read some news today that 110,000 households

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have not been able to afford to keep their homes adequately warm. Just for context. For those who are not so familiar with New Zealand, we, a country of 5 million. So 110,000 households, actually, quite the 6%. So it's rather larger than it maybe sounds, and in that as well, we see a lot of inequalities with specifically Maori, so indigenous population, but also Pacifica, Pacific Island households and renters being a lot more affected in that.

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And so all of these inequities inequities relate to tenure, yeah, measures of housing, deprivation, Denbo mold overcrowding, and so forth.

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and so this project that I'm talking about today. The residential choices and constraints survey-based project is part of a large research project program of research. It's government-funded which is entitled Widow Working to end racial oppression. Big goal, widow self aterial term means to challenge.

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So that's what we're trying to do. Widow has an explicitly explicit goal of racial justice and decolonization. And so all research is designed with that in mind. and so the survey itself is situated within a smaller

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part of the program around the geographies of racism and exclusion. As you can see here with housing as the key

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problematic we're looking at, but also environmental racism. And I think, and just briefly, in talking about racism, it's just important to note that we're talking about different types of racism here. We're not just talking about interpersonal racism and stereotyping, which is very much part of the story. But we're also talking about institutional racism amongst actors in the housing space and also about systemic racism. And I think that's in a way the hardest one to

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to measure it in some ways or to make visible right? Because this also relates to seemingly colorblind processes that shape housing markets right? Or it's land use policies, housing policies somehow. Public housing, right? How it's

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provided where it's built. I this around next 10 years, and so forth. we have an interesting example. At the moment. In the country there is a

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a case in what's called the Waitangi Tribunal, where Marty can make flames around historic and current breaches of the Treaty of Montana and the white

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27 to 50 relate specifically or investigates how many have been affected by the settlers, state housing policies, and services, which is a good example, I think, of systemic racism.

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and so to do some of that work where we've designed a survey. So I'll talk about that specifically today, I also just want to say that this survey, which is quantitative methodology is certain things you can do and obviously can't, sits alongside other work as well. So another project called Social and Technological Systems of segregation which contains a lot more qualitative work

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on an analysis of online rental advertising, for example, and the language used in that, and the kind of exclusions and inclusions implied.

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and also interviews with property managers and transitional housing case workers who help people to find private rentals and also studies around the experiences of communities of color. Specifically, in this case, African rent is in Wellington, and if I bar memorial, it's it's right. There is doing that work, and we'll be presenting on Friday morning. Just it's just plugging up 250

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and yes, sir.

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just about the survey briefly. So we did a bit of background work trying to identify and locate other types of surveys that have been done in the housing space internationally, and found this actually, not really all that much that relates specifically to housing and housing discrimination. And so we've been drawing on various sources, including sort of economic household surveys, including the Hilda in Australia, to design our own survey, which has

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about 6 sections, but long.

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you know, want to find out a few things, but it asks people quite broadly about the housing experiences. So it includes sections on housing and neighbourhood satisfaction. It includes sectional people's housing past. So how many places they've lived in over the last 10 years. Why, they've moved from those places. It's also got a section on people's housing aspirations and plans

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to get at, especially or want to gather this involuntary mobility and immobility. So if people want to move, can they? If people want to stay, can they or not? And we also do have a section specifically on perceptions of

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 discrimination and advantage. And so, as you can see on the map, just briefly, we're administering the survey, and across

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7 neighborhoods and 3 cities, free neighborhoods in Auckland, 2 in Hamilton, and to in Christchurch on South Island. And we've chosen those neighbourhoods specifically based on housing deprivation statistics that are part of the index of multiple deprivation, and it includes both neighborhoods that are highly housing deprived. But it also includes affluent neighborhoods, because we really wanted to also get a privilege, and like the other side of that coin, if you will.

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So And so in this presentation, I just want to. It's it's quite descriptive at the stage, because we are still going. The the survey is still with the collecting data. I'm drawing on 400 forty- responses at this point of time. I know, I think online 1 700. Now, which is great.

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I just want to highlight a few findings around people's perceptions of fairness and unfairness when trying to rent a buyer home and their experiences of well, actually, I'll focus on discrimination today when trying to rent or buy a home and some insights from responses to open questions as well, which I feel, show a few interesting things around racism and discrimination.

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 so yes.

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a couple of graphs, one around people's perception. So we ask them, how do you think people are treated when trying to rent or buy a home in our Ted around New Zealand, and you can see there the overall distribution which shows that 20%, which, since you have large people, are treated very unfairly, and another 26% think people are treated somewhat unfairly. And I think it's really quite striking to see

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there's different distributions by ethnicity and also by tenure. So New Zealand, European, 40% versus Maori, 71%. And just to note on there. And just to note on the Mahdi scales. Well, these are all people who identified as Marty in combination also with other ethnicities.

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If it was solely Maori, so it one identifier, it was 77%. If it was Marty and

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other ethnic identities that are not wide, not European. So Pacifica, for example, with 79. So the 71 includes also those who identify as Maori and New Zealand European, for example, so that mitigated it a little bit in the perceptions. At least.

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we also see the quite striking differences between owners and renters in an inverse relationship by age. So younger people more likely to think that people were treated somewhat or very unfairly

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compared to all the people. When we look at people's experiences of discrimination, we have a sort of similar

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picture in terms of the figures here.

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So

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I'm not gonna talk about advantage for reasons of time, but also ongoing analysis. But it shapes up is quite interesting already. A, a, a slightly confusing picture in some ways that we're gonna have to work through. But I want to just highlight 2 things at this point. So we also asked people about the basis on which they fought. People were treated unfairly.

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or on which they themselves experienced discrimination or advantage, and we gave them a list of social categories, including race in the Felicity, gender religion and a whole range of

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of other points, and it is was really quite interesting to see

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that race ethnicity and skin color actually came on top

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alongside income and employment status age and family status. So those were one of the main social categories

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on which people ford or experienced discrimination and advantage. And also we did ask people about who they were discriminated against by, or what experienced, were advantaged by, and very overwhelmingly, that led to real estate managers, property managers, or real estate agents, property, managers, and landlords, by by a longmountain.

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And you know in some ways I think, that shows us that the rental market is specifically experiencing discrimination, that maybe also advantage, but not just

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And so in the remaining time. which we still seem to have plenty of

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that's great. I want to just briefly look at some of the qualitative insights

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on

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grounds for discrimination. So yet so the stuff that was already borne out in the quantitative. So what I just talked about giving people a list of categories.

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you know, you get that sense of intersectional discrimination. Right? It's it's about class, it's about family status, it's about income, but also about race and ethnicity. And I think that first

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mit Ctl and quote there, which was a comment to the, you know, an example of being advantaged. People didn't always give examples, but sometimes repeated sort of the categories in some ways, but I think it's still quite telling. So, dressing well, being in a good job, no kids, no pets, white 101.

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So we see the intersectionality in that. I think we also see

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that the perfect tenant is probably quite a rare creature.

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right, almost invisible and quiet. There were people who talked about, we always say, like we like it quiet very much. The idea of performing the good tenant came through right, and how people 150

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responded to what they know is going on, and what I also found quite interesting. Here is the idea that experiences of discrimination and I found it

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can change over the life course

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which makes sense. I think I don't think that's particularly surprising if we think that age is a factor in discrimination. A lot of people refer to being seen as irresponsible. But there was also the idea that people didn't have references because they'd never rent it before. And of course those things change over the life, of course.

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and this is from one participant here. So an example of discrimination, when I was renting young and female when I was buying my partner and I a lawyer in white.

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So there is that element, however, and this is really, I think, the main point in relation to talking about discrimination and racism is that

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a few courts? But I have time great that racial discrimination and race and ethnicity and stink colour are the key factors that persist and that simply cannot go away across the life course, even if other things change in people's lives, even if.

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although you have more mental experience, even if your income changes.

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So I just want to point to these 3. I might let you read those quotes yourself. But what we saw

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just from the comments so far is that especially being Marty, I just want to say we The responses from Pacific. And migrant communities are still a little bit lower at this point, so it'll be interesting to see what comes through there.

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But so far we see that being Maori in and of itself is effective for discrimination. Right? And you can see that

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from those first 2 quotes from Amari respondent, but also from a new Paki house or New Zealand European respondent who basically didn't get invited to a viewing because the

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landlord in this case assumes they were Marty just based on how they spoke on the phone. Yeah. the other factor that

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it has an impact, and, as you can see, can also mitigate or can be used to mitigate discrimination. The skin color.

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and I seen already a few examples in the comments.

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I don't know what you find in your work, too, that people who are lighter skinned have an easier time

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finding rentals in particular. I think it also, as we see in the first quote as well. It's not only renting. It is also buying. So asking for home loans or applying for homelands. Those examples do come up as well.

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but yeah, I think I think renting is is a key vector here. And then we have those racialized assumptions and suspicions around communities of color, and that that aren't the same for people who are right, as you can see in this. So the assumption that if you're wide

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people assumed I had rich family or loans from parents, and I could just ask for more money if the price was more than our budget. I did not.

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whereas formati, it's it's the exact opposite, right? So even at a time when we both worked for time.

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people were suspicious that they were going to be able to afford

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 the rent or the the mortgage.

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and so just to conclude. I didn't realize it was going to come up like that.

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Fancy.

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Okay. So going back to to the idea of racism, you know, we. We see those kind of stereotypes play out quite a lot. But I think the work that we have to do in this project is to also situate that in wider processes

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you know the idea of risk and desirability, especially around tenants, but also home bias and the racialized constructions of these to be analysed in the

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conditions that enable and exacerbate them. So anything from the settler, colonial dispossession of Maori. So the theft of land culture, and and so forth that obviously carry its legacies at all today, and the racial capitalism and and commodification of property. And you know.

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so we've talked about the acid economy and and home ownership in itself. So that continued ideal of home ownership and renting as a second class. yeah, yeah. Official second class citizens, especially in public housing. All, I think.

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actually enable those discourses, in the first place, right alongside a poorly regulated private rental market, and so forth.

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I will leave it at that

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I can just hit this 6.

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Now, you know an a feat of circus skills. I'm going to chair myself. Watch my of time and Now I'll be very honest with myself. It's okay. I've got a I've got a clock here.

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 So I'm talking today on.

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why do some disadvantaged Australian families become homeless, and others do not resources in the context of disadvantaged housing and welfare.

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I'll just start by saying I acknowledged the fact that disadvantage is a word that is kind of difficult.

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but I'm using it as a proxy for

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inequality, marginalisation

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issues to do with, you know, capability, all those sorts of things, the different

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ways that disadvantage can be used to represent

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when all opportunities are not created equal, I guess.

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I this this paper is the last outing of my Ph. D. I hope

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so. it represents a very brief

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 walk through. I guess the the model that was my discussion chapter

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and my question for the thesis was, What are the causal mechanisms of contemporary meaning? The nowadays homelessness for disadvantaged Australian families with children.

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the thesis empirically used data from the census, the estimating homelessness. Dataset.

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The administrative data from the specialist, homelessness, services collection.

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and also journeys home, which is a six-wave longitudinal survey

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of People who were at the time were on centrelink payments, and had been flagged as experiencing homelessness at risk of homelessness, or through some statistical modeling

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looks, the same as those people, so possibly we would. A very high risk of housing insecurity. Put it that way.

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2 things you need to know is that. I. I work within a philosophy of science called critical realism.

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and the main implications for this thesis was that

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First of all, what we see in the world our empirical observations.

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I don't believe, actually tell us why things happen. They're things. We observe that we only observe some of the things that happen in the world.

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But lots of other things happen which are either unobservable, or that we don't see.

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and in order to understand what generates, what causes things to happen. We need to theorize, to the underlying

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structures in the social world and the mechanisms that are generating the events that we either see or don't see.

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So my

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thesis worked with the empirical data, but then very quickly became theoretical. What? How do I think?

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Based on the evidence that I see

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what are the structures that are implicated in

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bringing about homelessness for families in Australia, and through what causal mechanisms do those structures

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and those mechanisms intersect with each other contingently to bring about homelessness.

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The second

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thing is, I'll just say one more thing about about the thesis and critical realism.

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So I had an objective

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which was to develop a really rich explanation.

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to move beyond what is often typical in the quantitative literature, particularly move beyond lists of individual and structural risk factors for homelessness

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which very rarely are combined into one account. And you know I'm assuming in a room of sociologists. I don't need to talk about the fact that we as

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humans have agency.

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But we live in our world full of social structures.

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cultures, things which enable and constrain our actions, and that through our agency we also either

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transform or maintain existing social structures. So they are really sort of big ideas which have underpinned this thesis as well.

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the hob for hopeful is a a psychologist and his conservation of resources theory I found really really helpful

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in understanding the mechanisms of homelessness because the kernel of his theory is that people strive to retain, protect, and build resources.

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and that what is threatening to them is the potential or actual loss of these valued resources.

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So he focuses on the relationship of stress to loss

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or the potential for loss of resources and according to conservation of resources, an initial resource. Loss

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precipitates further loss. So there's this real sense of momentum that develops with resource loss, particularly for people who had fewer resources to start with. But it almost acts like an accelerator.

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So people with fewer resources are more vulnerable to the loss of the resources they already have.

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Resources, however, don't exist in isolation. They cluster

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according to related characteristics in what he calls resource caravans. Sometimes I'll use his language, and sometimes I'll try and just use other language. But there's sort of a consistency within his framework that makes sense that resources travel in caravans, they follow pathways. And so you get to this idea of there being structures, there being a sort of ecological component to the individual, obviously of the resources we actually have at our disposal.

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He talks about how resources are culturally specific, how they develop across the lifespan, how they have the potential to aggregate differently for different people.

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There's a whole. He talks about resiliency. I'm not going to talk about the theory. I could talk a long time about a theory. I think it's really helpful, and I'd encourage you to have a look if you're interested.

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except to say his theory really helped with that sort of creative process of theorizing from the patterns I saw in the data and how the literature talked about

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the causal

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reasons for homelessness and the experience of people living in homelessness. but it really helped to sort of fuel that process for me.

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this first slide, and I hope it's big enough.

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is really the first stage of thinking about the social structures. The structural relationships which I argue, are

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well, start the explanation for why some families become homeless and others don't in the context of disadvantage.

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So in this model up the top, we've got social structures

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which condition the degree to which families can build, develop, protect, and utilize their material and their non-material resources and condition. The degree to which the experience of homelessness, triggers and challenges to housing security are happening at the individual level.

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And then there are processes at the psychological level

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relating to a family psychological resources, such as resilience, capacity for decision making.

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This is A fairly typical, critical, realist way of kind of thinking about a stratified reality that things that happen at the psychological level emerge to impact our capacity, to act as agents at the same time as structures are conditioning and enabling our capacity to act as agents, so that there's things aren't flat. There is. There's a multitude of things going on

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with different structures.

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So now I'm going to zoom in a bit on that top level. Our social and normative structures.

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How to read this diagram is, first of all, that the main headings are the structures as I've identified and labeled them their abstractions. But the dot points underneath are summaries of what I suggest are the mechanisms through which those structures are implicated in family homelessness.

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So, in short, I'm going to read because it's otherwise. I get a bit, too.

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Go into too much detail. The mechanisms of neoliberalism have shaped disadvantaged welfare and housing in Australia

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structures that tend to increase poverty.

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hamper resource, accumulation, and make housing less affordable to those on low incomes. Homelessness is an extreme form of disadvantage. I argue

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for families living in disadvantage. It's a combination of their individual experiences and the influence of structural factors that combine to deplete their material and non-material resources, that they have available and diminished resources, reduce the capacity of people to be resilient, and to meet challenges to their housing security.

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Then Australia's welfare system

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acts through 2 essential mechanisms to generate the conditions enabling family homelessness. First and most straightforwardly.

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welfare payments are insufficient to do anything other than keep people in poverty. particularly when I wrote this thesis 3, 3, 4 years ago.

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Secondly, or second, changes to welfare policies in Australia over the last 30 years have increased the resource vulnerability of families.

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Then, looking at Australia's housing, market, and housing policy, these are central to creating the conditions for family homelessness.

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So the residualization of social housing results in more significant numbers of low-income families relying on the private rental market for a home as we've been talking about already.

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however, the private rental market is unaffordable for low-income families, resulting in financial stress.

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depleting their capacity to generate adequate resources to meet homelessness, triggers and other challenges should they occur.

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and Australian families are also subject to the impacts of laws that produce insecure tenancies primarily through short leases and no ground evictions, and I appreciate there's been some changes since I wrote this, but

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the degree to which they are significant changes is, you know, pretty arguable.

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 now this next section and subsequent sections that traverse similar ground.

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I have based on the work of

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not only are Australian and non- Australian indigenous scholars about how they understand both what the nature of homelessness is, and how it is generated for their people. So colonialism has left a profound and enduring influence on what it means to be indigenous. In Australia's set, the dominated society

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contributing to economic and social disadvantage

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for aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples

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the intergenerational consequences of racism and discriminatory policies interact with other risk mechanisms of disadvantage, including including poorer health outcomes

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to amplify the mechanisms of homelessness in a unique way for indigenous Australians.

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And finally, on this Looking at this, this structural normative level.

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gender inequalities

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in caring responsibilities, work and family law disadvantage, female single parents, particularly with gender relations at the heart of explaining domestic and family violence against women.

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Then we move to the next level, which was the individual level.

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which I think is legible. Hopefully.

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what I'm showing at this level is

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something that represents both the events that happen to people, the actions they do, all the things that are about individual agency and the individual experiences of people.

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So this figure illustrates how, in the context of

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thinner and narrower resource reservoirs the challenges of adverse events, such as domestic and family violence, housing, crisis or financial crisis.

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will leave families with a diminished capacity to respond.

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Parents and families accumulate their resources over their lifetimes.

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So on the left-hand side, we've got a different different kinds of resources.

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They're constrained or supported by the environment, the social structures we talked about

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and their existing resources in the context of a family's housing security.

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The main resources, I suggest are financial housing, human capital, social, capital, and psychological

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and for indigenous people. There's also cultural resources that contribute to resilience to cultural strength

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and provide resilience to dominant settler discourses. These resource types

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are aggregated or clustered resource caravans, as Hob Fall describes, that is, they are related constellations of resources that perform similar functions

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in supporting housing, so supporting housing, security, and the absence of which generates threats of a similar nature.

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Parents, therefore, strive to obtain, retain, protect, and foster the resources they need for their families to thrive and survive.

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But many events.

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significant life changes, challenges external shocks.

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put pressure on a household's resources.

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and increase the potential for an already resource. Poor family, to run out of the material and non-material assets. They need to prevent homelessness. So homelessness triggers and challenges to housing security, stress resource, reservoirs as families scramble to mitigate their impact.

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In this model I highlight on the right-hand side. There

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adverse events, such as

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a death in the family, a car accident, a natural disaster.

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domestic and family violence. housing, crisis, and financial crisis. however.

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vulnerable families can have the rug pulled out by any event that works through similar mechanisms to challenge their resource, equilibrium. many different adverse life events could require families to start drawing down on their resources to cope

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these crisis events

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increased stress, psychological distress, and trauma

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which depletes a family's psychological resources, reduces their resilience and decreases their coping capacities.

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Now, that was an extremely

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shortened and superficial version of what I wrote, what I think is really important here is that there are lots and lots of individual stories, for why people become homeless.

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and what I was trying to find was a theoretical story which

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met or was able to encompass

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those individual stories. There was one piece of research I did, using Qca qualitative comparative analysis which allows you to look at the clusters of conditions

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and outcomes.

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Oh, my, say, okay, different different combinations of conditions leading to the same outcome. But it allows you to reverse the outcome. So becoming homeless is one model.

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Not becoming homeless is another model. When you look at the reasons why people become homeless.

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The model is a mess, because there's so many different versions

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of people's stories that it's very hard to see any consistency or pattern in the data. But when you reverse it and say what stops, people become the same. You know, same data set. What stops people becoming homeless. It then becomes very clear that it's about

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being indigenous is a big not being indigenous is a big protective factor.

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but that it's something about the relationship between resources and crisis events. And essentially, if you have a crisis event and don't have enough resources. That's the set of conditions that in this model of the journey's home data was bringing about. It was not, you know, not protecting you from homelessness. So I got too many knots. But you I have. You know what I mean by all that.

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So we're now going to go to the psychological level.

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So therefore, at the psychological level, trauma, mental health and psychological distress

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are factors that put pressure on psychological resources and reduce the capacity of families to weather challenges and maintain their housing security.

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What happens at the psychological level emerges at the individual resource level to play a fundamental part in our choices as actors in the world.

324
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This diagram summarizes the main mechanisms at the psychological level that generate vulnerabilities to homelessness

325
00:57:16.470 --> 00:57:27.639
in an initial attempt to bring psychological literature into a stratified explanation of the mechanisms of family homelessness. I, in my Literature review for this project

326
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I,

327
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when I say it was interdisciplinary, I mean, I went anywhere that mentioned homelessness, and it was fascinating to me to see how each of those different lenses, created the problem or talked about the problem and how they judged the problem, how they judge participants, how they dealt with structure and agency. And this was something that I really wanted to work with in this project was to try and

328
00:57:52.910 --> 00:57:56.520
bring what was useful from all of that into

329
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one model that I'm hoping has some implications. And this is what I think they are.

330
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:08.579
So the causal explanation suggests a need to focus on

331
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identifying families, experiencing housing insecurity from any cause.

332
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So any anything that is

333
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challenging.

334
00:58:18.470 --> 00:58:30.569
They're housing triggers to homelessness in in any type. and I believe that developing resource-oriented interventions to support the agency of families to maintain their housing

335
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:35.700
is a really, I mean, I know, that exists in part. But

336
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there was one organisation I was working with that wanted a checklist that would help them predict families at risk of homelessness. And it was all.

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Do they take drugs? Do they work?

338
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Have they been homeless before. Like.

339
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I think, maybe something to do with

340
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doing an audit of their resources in the context of high-procity might be an interesting approach.

341
00:59:00.260 --> 00:59:14.370
but also fundamentally recognising the significance of structural factors particularly. And I don't need to tell this audience anything about this. The mechanisms of housing and welfare in the Australian context and the importance of action to reform those systems.

342
00:59:14.770 --> 00:59:20.639
And in terms of research. I looked at family homelessness in the Australian context.

343
00:59:21.530 --> 00:59:31.009
 it would be really good to look at that. In other contexts, maybe there are different resources, different structures, I'm imagine, in that in different contexts.

344
00:59:31.040 --> 00:59:46.949
and also for different groups of people I kind of I I didn't really get into. What about if you're a migrant or refugee family like there's a A lot of other complexity which is not in that model which I absolutely acknowledge

345
00:59:47.490 --> 00:59:56.650
 and finally, to maybe research more on resource, orientated rather than risk factor orientated explanations for homelessness

346
00:59:56.730 --> 01:00:00.369
would be really helpful. And, as I just said, intersectional research.

347
01:00:00.490 --> 01:00:16.570
final slide. But this paper is really new. It is what I just described in more detail, and if you really fancy going down the rabbit hole, the thesis is also in line, and that has a lot more detail as well, particularly about how

348
01:00:16.620 --> 01:00:26.580
the that the idea of conservation of resources helps to understand those dynamics of resource, loss and gain in a time of crisis and trauma.

349
01:00:27.220 --> 01:00:28.190
Thank you.

350
01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:40.630
And it is now my pleasure to introduce Alan Morris to the stage, freshly minted from his

351
01:00:40.650 --> 01:00:48.319
holiday. It's fine. Thanks very much, Katherine.

352
01:00:48.510 --> 01:00:52.799
I'm not going to read out what you're talking about in my head. No, it's fine

353
01:00:53.910 --> 01:00:55.390
housing. And in.

354
01:00:57.350 --> 01:00:58.280
Yeah.

355
01:01:02.170 --> 01:01:04.619
So I just hit that. Yeah.

356
01:01:04.750 --> 01:01:05.580
should be

357
01:01:06.520 --> 01:01:19.570
right? thanks very much. So, although this is called halogen and inequality in Australia, I think the issue I'm talking about is really become the global issue.

358
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:26.610
And I think more and more countries. Experiencing this incredible

359
01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:37.660
challenge where an increasing proportion of the population just can't afford a decent housing. And I think it's really creating

360
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:47.200
a lot of dislocation within countries and creating enormous political issues, etc.

361
01:01:47.490 --> 01:01:53.170
And of course, it's also an enormous policy challenge. You know, I think the problem has become so deep.

362
01:01:53.630 --> 01:01:57.989
But it's becoming very, very hard to actually rectify.

363
01:01:58.860 --> 01:02:12.190
Okay, so this paper is also it's available as a journal article. It's got the same title. So if anybody want you want to look for it, or I can send it to you with pleasure.  okay.

364
01:02:14.270 --> 01:02:26.270
so just a few introductory comments, and also my arguments. So I would argue, you know, as we all know, Australia is in the midst of a house and affordability crisis. But I think what this houses and affordability crisis is doing

365
01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:30.840
is really intensifying in inequality quite dramatically.

366
01:02:31.420 --> 01:02:43.940
And I would argue, and we can talk about this in question. Time, that housing tenure has become a key determinant of a household's wealth and disposable income, and an individual's capacity to lead a decent life

367
01:02:44.980 --> 01:02:53.830
and link to this. A person's location in the housing market is becoming more and more pertinent than class in determining life chances.

368
01:02:54.420 --> 01:03:12.290
So that's a little bit controversial, and I think certainly within the Australian context, it's creating a major policy issue, because the Government age pension, which a large part, a large proportion of older Australians are dependent on is really premised on low housing costs.

369
01:03:12.570 --> 01:03:17.389
And what is happening is that increasing proportion of older Australians are having to

370
01:03:17.490 --> 01:03:26.749
a retire or leave the labor force either as private renters or with a large mortgage. And this obviously creates serious stress.

371
01:03:27.720 --> 01:03:36.229
Okay, just to continue the context. So historically, Australia was certainly a home-owning society.

372
01:03:36.540 --> 01:03:46.629
you know, and there was a constant increase from 90 47 to 50. So 53% in 1,947 to 73% in 1,966,

373
01:03:47.060 --> 01:03:54.789
and most, the vast majority of older Australians by the time they retired, owned their own home

374
01:03:54.890 --> 01:04:09.770
it was very unusual not to all they were in social housing. In the early 1990 S. Australia had the highest rate of home ownership, and Oecd, among older households. and Australia was often labeled as a property earlier in democracy.

375
01:04:09.810 --> 01:04:25.299
What we've had since the seventys is this constant decline in home ownership? So the latest census 66%. But I think a really profound shift is this proportion of households which are outright homeowners.

376
01:04:25.350 --> 01:04:38.529
So in 2,021, only 31% of homes were earned outright ways. In 1996, 43% were so, I think there is this constant decline in the capacity of people to pay off their home.

377
01:04:38.610 --> 01:04:42.009
which obviously creates some significant stress.

378
01:04:43.220 --> 01:04:53.120
The other very important shift is the incapacity of people to enter the home, to enter home ownership. So what you have is an increase in

379
01:04:53.220 --> 01:05:08.579
proportional to the population depend on the private rental sector and the other. And link to this issue is that historically, the private rental sector was really transitional. So people would be in the private rental sector for a period of time and then into home ownership.

380
01:05:08.690 --> 01:05:15.640
But I think for an increasing proportion of the population. Well, I don't think I know, as Macron said.

381
01:05:18.230 --> 01:05:29.329
 what is happening now is a large proportion of private renters are stuck in the private rental sector for a very extended period, or even lifelong.

382
01:05:29.770 --> 01:05:32.810
and then combine with this

383
01:05:33.250 --> 01:05:43.210
is a very significant decline in social housing, although it's always been quite a small part of the housing profile in Australia.

384
01:05:43.450 --> 01:05:55.220
Nevertheless, you know, 6% does represent many tens of thousands of households. And so it did represent an opportunity for low-income households to enter into affordable housing.

385
01:05:55.310 --> 01:06:03.349
But now, with the decline to around 4%, it's really become increasingly residualized and incredibly difficult to enter.

386
01:06:03.570 --> 01:06:15.660
And I'll talk more about that. The other very important part of the context, of course, in terms of inequality, is this incredible stratification around how a home ownership? So besides

387
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:19.580
in a home. Many Australians now also in a second home.

388
01:06:19.930 --> 01:06:29.270
and the latest Australian tax office data indicates around about 20% of Australian taxpayers own an investment property or a second home.

389
01:06:29.890 --> 01:06:37.220
Now this is an incredible statistic. So the 2,021, that census is central on Census Night.

390
01:06:37.340 --> 01:06:43.440
But the 1 million of the approximately 11 million private degrees of Australia were unoccupied.

391
01:06:43.450 --> 01:06:46.199
So obviously, some people were traveling.

392
01:06:46.750 --> 01:07:02.610
A lot of these people would be, you know, private in this? I don't know, really. I'm not sure. It's a bit of a mystery which is worthy of research. I mean, what was going on. Yeah, where all these you know, what was going on with these homes I actually met. A lot of them were just one

393
01:07:02.630 --> 01:07:10.000
I don't know. In between Airbnb's holiday herms, etc. But it is a remarkable statistic.

394
01:07:10.390 --> 01:07:17.810
But I think what it indicates is this, you know, this, this incredible inequality based on housing.

395
01:07:19.340 --> 01:07:31.929
And that's another final contextualization. So one estimate drawn on 2,021 in census is that there were over 500,000 low income Australian households that were not in appropriate housing on Census night.

396
01:07:32.240 --> 01:07:42.559
He uses Australians quote unquote people either experience the homelessness in overcrowded homes or spending over 30% of the income on rent. It's probably an underestimation, I think.

397
01:07:43.470 --> 01:07:45.070
Okay.

398
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:56.419
so just a bit of theory to explain this context. You know, a lot of you will know this. So I think near Liberalism, and the financialization of housing is a crucial.

399
01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:59.060
a part of the story

400
01:07:59.670 --> 01:08:11.880
erez agmoni I think what neoliberalism has done, it's really diminished the State's desire to intervene in the housing market in any way to provide social housing one.

401
01:08:12.070 --> 01:08:17.730
and has really encouraged the notion that individuals are responsible for their own fate

402
01:08:17.750 --> 01:08:20.659
and need to. you know.

403
01:08:21.250 --> 01:08:41.070
go the own way in the housing market, and a lovely quote from Wendy Braun. as she argues near Liberalism, entails a host of policies that figure and produce citizens as individual entrepreneurs and consumers whose so moral authority is measured by their capacity for self-care. So this capacity to, you know, look after yourself and buy your own house, and

404
01:08:41.170 --> 01:08:43.139
not be. Depend on the state.

405
01:08:43.330 --> 01:08:54.499
the ability to provide for their own needs and service their own ambitions. And I think that really sums up the approach to housing. I mean, what is it? Very interesting, you know, during the with Covid

406
01:08:54.750 --> 01:09:06.869
 economists, sociologists, etc., you know, pleaded with the Morrison Government to build social housing, and there was absolutely a blank refusal

407
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:11.780
to embark on that policy option which was an obvious policy option.

408
01:09:13.180 --> 01:09:17.800
So Increasingly a quote from Elvis and Christopher

409
01:09:17.860 --> 01:09:38.609
home ownership is increasingly presented as the only desirable tenure to aspire to quote the different commodity forms of of a housing, and only occupation particularly becomes naturalized and normalized, while none, and partially commodified forms are oathered and Dean normalized. And I think this is, you know, this really captures this dynamic.

410
01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:44.880
which is, I think, very, very dangerous and is really creating this intense inequality

411
01:09:45.400 --> 01:09:56.130
ere.

412
01:09:56.270 --> 01:10:07.859
And anybody in Australia who's got disposable income doesn't buy an investment. Property has probably been a bit dumb. It's a very, very good investment, because it's such a wrought in terms of the taxation, etc.

413
01:10:07.980 --> 01:10:20.130
So as my madden and mocuse state housing is under attack today, and most immediately is a conflict between housing is a little of social space in the housing as an instrument for profit-making. A conflict between housing as home

414
01:10:20.230 --> 01:10:23.450
and Israeli states, really a marvelous quit.

415
01:10:25.780 --> 01:10:49.140
Okay, so, moving to some what this is a very broad sweep of. So like the housing and profile. You know Australia and inequality. So I think what has happened is that there's been minimal endeavor to control housing prices. In fact, you know, housing an increase in housing prices, housing prices has been presented as very, very positive.

416
01:10:49.330 --> 01:10:53.249
and of course, for home owners it is very positive.

417
01:10:53.570 --> 01:10:56.290
but the problem is not everybody ends ahead.

418
01:10:56.660 --> 01:11:11.930
 yeah. So just as you know, some amazing stats. In the 3 years, the decades prior to 2,020 house prices in Australia trebled while real wages increased by only 50%. So you have this increasing division between 250

419
01:11:12.080 --> 01:11:18.309
income and house prices. And obviously, that price is an increasing proportion of the population out of housing.

420
01:11:18.590 --> 01:11:26.389
This is amazing, that in the year to September 2,021 wages increased by 2 22.2% earlier

421
01:11:26.660 --> 01:11:34.030
below inflation, whereas the weighted average increase in house prices across the 8 capital cities was 21.7%.

422
01:11:34.270 --> 01:11:42.790
So that that is quite phenomenal in the 12 months to September 2,021. So if you were homeowner, you really did benefit.

423
01:11:43.820 --> 01:11:56.989
 yeah, I should. Medium house prices in Australia, capital cities in May 2,023860,000 apart from 617,000. certainly 1.2 million etc.

424
01:11:57.050 --> 01:12:07.250
This is a a lovely stat in 2,021 owners of medium-price homes in Sydney, Australia's most populous fatigue, and almost 340,000 in net. Worth.

425
01:12:08.080 --> 01:12:09.469
Quite remarkable.

426
01:12:09.850 --> 01:12:13.729
So lucky, you know, including myself. Very fortunate

427
01:12:15.350 --> 01:12:16.300
laughter.

428
01:12:16.580 --> 01:12:28.829
so I think obviously what this context does. It makes it increasingly difficult for people to enter the housing market, and we can see the stats.

429
01:12:28.980 --> 01:12:41.629
And increasingly, this is generational and class orientated, etc. So the stats are very, very dramatic. So where, as in

430
01:12:41.960 --> 01:13:02.070
90, 71, 57%, or 25 to 34 year olds were homeowners in 2,02143% were so a very dramatic drop. the 35 to 44 year old age cohort to spend a similar drop in 90, 71, 71, 71% of his age cohort were homeowners in 2,02161%,

431
01:13:02.390 --> 01:13:07.999
45 to 54 from 56% in 1,976 to 70%.

432
01:13:08.300 --> 01:13:15.209
And although the decline in the 55 to 60 four-year-old group has been quite modest from 79% to 76%.

433
01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:25.940
The drop in the proportion of artright homeowners. This is in this age core cohort has been quite dramatic. Only 44, only 40% in 2,021

434
01:13:26.260 --> 01:13:37.049
own their own, their home outright. So you know, as I said, the adequacy of the Government Age pension is premised on low housing costs. So this is

435
01:13:37.060 --> 01:13:38.980
this is a a bubbling

436
01:13:39.110 --> 01:13:44.680
issue, which I think is really going to hit Australia quite dramatically in the coming decades.

437
01:13:45.750 --> 01:13:56.459
 so what is happening not surprisingly, is that the middle class is obviously able to support their kids to enter into the housing market.

438
01:13:56.540 --> 01:14:14.279
So latest. you know, some data from Hilda indicates that intergenerational transfers double the chances of recipients transition into home ownership, and I think increasingly, in order to enter into home ownership, you have to have a support from your parents

439
01:14:14.380 --> 01:14:17.239
becoming very important, or have a very good job.

440
01:14:17.460 --> 01:14:26.549
Modeling by the greens in 2,021 establish that a couple on a medium wage will take 11 years to save a 12% deposit for a medium price home in Sydney.

441
01:14:26.750 --> 01:14:29.459
So if you single you in real trouble.

442
01:14:30.320 --> 01:14:37.780
which is a, you know, a problem. I mean, a lot of people are not necessarily in relationships.

443
01:14:38.120 --> 01:14:43.720
And this is I. I was really battling to find a class analysis.

444
01:14:43.760 --> 01:14:48.240
some stats around housing and class.

445
01:14:48.360 --> 01:14:58.990
This is this, but this is quite interesting. So educational levels of household members, which obviously overlaps with class quite significantly.

446
01:14:59.040 --> 01:15:09.699
and as regards the possibility of access in home ownership, so nearly two-thirds of of of those with a tertiary educated member in their house, or believe that to be possible to purchase within 5 years.

447
01:15:09.890 --> 01:15:18.870
compared with just a third of those with education to year 12 or below 36% and less than a quarter of those with education to year 11 or below.

448
01:15:18.980 --> 01:15:28.059
So that's pretty pretty dramatic, and I think, illustrates this increasing notion that it's impossible to enter the housing market.

449
01:15:28.650 --> 01:15:33.490
especially if you come from a, you know, a less, a low income household.

450
01:15:34.540 --> 01:15:36.760
so in terms of

451
01:15:37.180 --> 01:15:49.760
disposable income housing 10 years played a very, very important role. I think you'll be able to see that. So this is very interesting. I mean, for example, if you.

452
01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:55.860
the family household, the civil seed, Larry, come, households and bottom 45.

453
01:15:55.930 --> 01:16:02.619
So if you, a couple of family with a pen and children as you're going to see, you'll be spending about 4% of your income

454
01:16:02.650 --> 01:16:16.379
on housing, whereas if you're only with a mortgage of this to 28% private range of 26%. Probably that's 27%. That's probably an estimation. And if you're a low-person house or 8.4% of the outright home owner.

455
01:16:16.670 --> 01:16:22.400
But yes, 8.6, if you're with a mortgage and 44% of your private rental.

456
01:16:22.820 --> 01:16:29.040
So it's making an enormous difference in terms of your capacity to lead a decent life

457
01:16:29.510 --> 01:16:31.670
like Elvis. Gotta move it up now.

458
01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:46.880
So in terms of mortgage stress, what you have is an increasing proportion of the population suffering from mortgage mortgage stress. And obviously this impacts on their quality of life. Just the Sydney Stat. Where, in 2,016, one in 12 mortgage holders were in mortgage stress.

459
01:16:47.060 --> 01:16:57.489
I haven't. I happen to use more than 30% of the income to service the mortgage in 2,021 one in 5, where now, with increasing interest rates, I should imagine that's gone, you know, probably to one in 3

460
01:16:57.810 --> 01:17:12.210
lot of people are really on the cusp of disaster with the increase in interest rates.  so this is another interest in Sydney Stat. And every Sydney buy would need 61.8% of their household income

461
01:17:12.500 --> 01:17:31.180
to pay the mortgage in the current in the current quarter. Okay, I'll move on. So to just talking about the private rental sector very quickly. So this is a very highly differentiated sector still. But for many low-income households the private rental sector is a source of enormous stress and insecurity.

462
01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:33.220
And

463
01:17:33.630 --> 01:17:44.529
and the Productivity Commissioner Report, in 2,019 estimated that two-thirds of low-income renters were in rental stress. I pay more than 30% of the income to pair the rent. 2

464
01:17:44.740 --> 01:17:47.679
house. Calculate that there are about

465
01:17:48.190 --> 01:17:55.579
 300,000. It was a shortage of 300,000 affordable homes for

466
01:17:55.640 --> 01:17:59.730
the bottom 20% of the households in the private rental sector.

467
01:18:00.740 --> 01:18:19.840
And what's, I think what's very important is that historically, the regional areas have become where a very important. a source of housing for low income households. You know, people, especially people that depend on benefits, but that has really shifted with Covid, with a whole lot of, you know a huge well, not huge but substantial migration

468
01:18:19.900 --> 01:18:32.260
from the metropolitan areas to the regional areas which have pushed up rents very considerably in many areas. And this has obviously accentuated the housing crisis in the regional areas.

469
01:18:33.010 --> 01:18:41.399
 so I think the other obvious problem in Australia is the is the role of investors which have really pushed up

470
01:18:41.410 --> 01:18:43.310
housing prices.

471
01:18:43.420 --> 01:18:57.350
And this is a remarkable figure. I don't know. Landlords can claim a range of costs, tax deductions, interest on loans is the single biggest deduction of corn for almost half of the total, $50,000,050,000,000,000 expected to be claimed annually.

472
01:18:57.680 --> 01:19:00.369
which is a remarkable figure.

473
01:19:00.750 --> 01:19:12.989
in 2,016. It was estimated that investors earned 27% of Australians by the Australian dual in stock by number, and 24% by value, quite, quite dramatic.

474
01:19:14.030 --> 01:19:27.349
in terms of social housing. As I said earlier, we have this very significant decline in terms of number and and percent. So what you have now is that social housing has become increasingly residualized.

475
01:19:27.370 --> 01:19:40.389
And of course, when you can't get into a social house, and you are dependent on the very expensive private rental market. So you're in serious trouble. nationally, in June the twentieth 21 there, 170, 75,000 households on the waiting list.

476
01:19:40.700 --> 01:19:55.050
But the the crucial thing about the housing, the waiting list is, it is divided between priority and general. So, for example, in New South Wales, 57,005, 550 people on the waiting list, I think, in June, 2,022,

477
01:19:55.130 --> 01:20:04.439
of which 6,500 were a priority. If you, General, you have no chance whatsoever. Very, very little chance of getting into social housing.

478
01:20:04.490 --> 01:20:10.419
so a lot of people will be waiting a lifelong to get into social housing or never.

479
01:20:11.540 --> 01:20:15.660
Okay, I'll I'll come and discuss homelessness. I'll move on

480
01:20:16.010 --> 01:20:33.860
in terms of aboriginal storage. Straight Island, a housing major crisis. Only 14% were earned outright, 50 or 6% rented and a lot of structural issues. Only 69% of dwellings have no major structural problems.

481
01:20:34.270 --> 01:20:35.789
Okay, maybe that.

482
01:20:35.820 --> 01:21:00.710
Okay, any. Never mind. Okay, I'll move on to the conclusion that this is it? so so I think we can create as like rough wealth in inequality, index on top would be outright homeowners, and more than one property after these could be investment properties or second homes. Secondly, we have outright homeowners who own their home home outright, who do not have an additional property.

483
01:21:01.050 --> 01:21:26.780
Of course, their housing wealth would be dependent on their home, and where it's situated the very big differences. Thirdly, we have homeowners who have a mortgage, but not a non and mortgage stress. Fourthly, we have low income house homeowners who have a sizable mortgage and or in relatively income, and are suffering from rental, from mortgage straits at the bottom of the rung. Wealth wise, we have low income, private renters and social housing tenants. Wealth of both groups would be

484
01:21:26.810 --> 01:21:35.160
minimal and then final slide in terms of income. This is more complex. So, for example.

485
01:21:35.220 --> 01:21:43.350
Outright home owners who are reliant on the age pension for their income may have substantial wealth, but minimal income.

486
01:21:43.640 --> 01:21:59.759
social housing tenants who only pay 25% of the income news. And you have to. Yeah, the the rent is set to 25% of the income, so they would probably have a lot more disposable income than low-income counterparts who depend on the private rental sector.

487
01:22:00.110 --> 01:22:04.119
Thank you very much. Yes.

488
01:22:09.330 --> 01:22:16.310
thank you. I would now. But about 20 min or so for some questions. If I press escape. Is that the way to get

489
01:22:17.040 --> 01:22:21.310
yeah, can you put it so it's

490
01:22:21.570 --> 01:22:27.470
So what I'm looking for, you know, everybody grid, whatever it is. Gallery. Catherine?

491
01:22:27.810 --> 01:22:32.170
Tab. Yeah.

492
01:22:32.250 --> 01:22:39.860
So for people in the room, there is a microphone there. If you wouldn't mind popping up and

493
01:22:39.870 --> 01:22:59.679
speaking your questions, the mic, so that people at home can hear, and maybe suggest who your question is addressed to, and whoever's taking that question could pop up here. So all all there, it doesn't really matter. It's just. If you come here, then people can actually see you, whereas if you're there, you'll be a disembodied voice. So it's really up to you

494
01:22:59.800 --> 01:23:16.269
people online. If you'd like to. Either, you can type in the chat if you'd like me to read it, or if you use the little raised hand button. That's under reactions. I will call up. that has got to be Flavio.

495
01:23:16.910 --> 01:23:19.240
Oh, my goodness.

496
01:23:22.280 --> 01:23:34.239
okay, why don't we start with an easy one in the room, please. Would you like to ask your questions.

497
01:23:34.250 --> 01:23:59.340
Mars?

498
01:23:59.530 --> 01:24:06.020
We'll basically not be able to pay them more. And then at some point there will be a way of your possession

499
01:24:06.100 --> 01:24:31.079
to the banks, and then for the people who are also experiencing tremendous amount of stress, and when they were.

500
01:24:31.080 --> 01:24:55.350
it's right. This is actual, wonderful. And as far as they're concerned, there's another several thousands of years like this for those people. It's probably not gonna work out. So I mean, I I guess my question is, what do you think is going to happen about these things? And, second, politically speaking, why do you think that the labor part is in New South Wales and South Australia, for example, on behalf of this, is not none of their problem.

501
01:24:55.350 --> 01:25:03.840
Like they are essentially the partners with the landlords and all the partners who will win over the right. That's my question for you and the question for our

502
01:25:28.470 --> 01:25:32.589
but let's say, this comes the the stories we're making on the day.

503
01:25:32.780 --> 01:25:34.940
Allen, do you want to come here?

504
01:25:35.710 --> 01:25:36.570
Then?

505
01:25:39.430 --> 01:25:49.700
look I yeah. I'm not sure what's going to happen. look I, what is happening is that historically, halogen has really been swept under the carpet as a

506
01:25:49.760 --> 01:25:51.050
policy issue.

507
01:25:51.460 --> 01:25:55.739
But in recent times it's really becoming.

508
01:25:55.780 --> 01:26:03.389
It's really front and sentinel. And there's an enormous amount of pressure on the Federal Government to do something.

509
01:26:03.650 --> 01:26:11.029
There's this whole debate now, with the greens about, you know, rank freezes, etc. So I think it's certainly

510
01:26:11.180 --> 01:26:16.280
become very central in policy discussion

511
01:26:16.390 --> 01:26:26.210
in terms of what? How people will cope. I think the way people will cope is by cutting their expenses and hanging on to their house, and you know, come what may, and

512
01:26:26.860 --> 01:26:35.720
doing everything possible to ensure that they maintain their home ownership and maintain a roof over their head if they rent in.

513
01:26:36.070 --> 01:26:43.449
But certainly I think in terms of people's quality of life. I think housing is really going to impact quite severely.

514
01:26:44.180 --> 01:26:47.430
and there will be an increase in highnesses sure.

515
01:26:51.900 --> 01:27:04.540
 it's like a dance. Oh, yeah, thank you for your question. Yes, I don't know about you. But yeah, when you do research on

516
01:27:04.580 --> 01:27:23.020
modern racism, right? We always expect it to be very subtle and hard to find, and often we are surprised by how blighted it is, and it's certainly the case here in what we're seeing at the moment we do have anti-discrimination legislation, of course. So this is illegal.

517
01:27:23.030 --> 01:27:37.059
But I guess there's problems around how that is policed and regulated, especially in the market where renters are at the mercy of landlords. I've had some very interesting examples in the

518
01:27:37.060 --> 01:27:58.359
comments or the open responses, as well. On the survey where European New Zealanders were very much aware of the racism in the rental market, and and that would like that person as well experience it, but said like well, they were disgusting. But what can we do? We need a house when they knew they were the only white people there in amongst, you know, 70 viewers or so.

519
01:27:58.370 --> 01:28:06.129
 you can make complaints to the Human Rights Commission, and that does happen, but not very.

520
01:28:10.060 --> 01:28:20.779
Flavio congratulations for still being awake. I don't know if other participants online are also experiencing the middle of the night in quite the same way. But thank you very much for coming.

521
01:28:20.870 --> 01:28:26.440
I might try and tackle a little bit of Flavier's first question. There. I think

522
01:28:26.740 --> 01:28:27.440
I,

523
01:28:28.440 --> 01:28:33.319
trying to present in this sort of format in this sort of time, means you truncate things

524
01:28:33.430 --> 01:28:51.369
trying to develop a diagrammatic form of a model means that you use words which are not necessarily a hundred percent. What you'd prefer to use. But you're abstracting from something that's much more complex and trying to give a flavor of

525
01:28:51.450 --> 01:28:57.720
the nature of that thing. What makes it what it is, and not something else in a very short and form.

526
01:28:57.790 --> 01:29:07.940
my defense for things like using words like in losing was like disadvantaged  Is that

527
01:29:07.960 --> 01:29:09.070
it is

528
01:29:10.630 --> 01:29:17.490
that there's more detail in the paper and in the thesis about different ways of conceptualizing disadvantage.

529
01:29:17.500 --> 01:29:25.370
But what I think they all get to is the influence of structural inequalities of all different types. So

530
01:29:25.730 --> 01:29:39.019
Different oppressions, different power, imbalances, different ways, that people are marginalized, different ways, that people have less opportunity or capability to

531
01:29:39.620 --> 01:29:44.420
achieve the things that they want to that are their ultimate concerns, that they.

532
01:29:44.580 --> 01:29:49.790
as agents, would like to be able to do. And so all of that is kind of tied up in that word

533
01:29:50.580 --> 01:29:52.830
and in terms of

534
01:29:53.170 --> 01:30:00.159
homelessness as a word, it's also problematic for other different reasons, because of

535
01:30:00.400 --> 01:30:02.920
what images

536
01:30:03.290 --> 01:30:19.209
it conjures to different people because of different definitions within Australia and around the world of at what tipping point is one housed versus homeless all those things that we that we know about different cultural ideas, about what homelessness is.

537
01:30:19.310 --> 01:30:21.730
 So

538
01:30:22.030 --> 01:30:27.189
I take your point. But also we need to be able to try and communicate things. And

539
01:30:27.820 --> 01:30:35.120
some some of those things are compromises in a format of this type. Now, is there someone else in the room. Who would like to jump up to the microphone.

540
01:30:35.790 --> 01:30:36.910
Yeah, please.

541
01:30:40.940 --> 01:30:41.760
Hi.

542
01:30:42.170 --> 01:30:45.510
thank you. Everyone that were really interesting.

543
01:30:45.820 --> 01:30:54.150
I love housing research, and I used to do your housing research. And recently I flipped to the other side. And now I work in policy

544
01:30:54.270 --> 01:30:59.169
in the State government, in Torah is doing housing policy

545
01:30:59.940 --> 01:31:03.960
other than the very clear, obvious that we have more house. We need more housing

546
01:31:04.040 --> 01:31:08.690
to 5, which is so obvious.

547
01:31:08.770 --> 01:31:22.889
My question goes to anyone who's willing to answer. It doesn't have to be in his format. It's a complex question. Well, it's not the news. Are there any innovative ways that you can think of, or you've come across it in your research, or in the ways in which you

548
01:31:22.950 --> 01:31:24.630
been working

549
01:31:24.740 --> 01:31:29.059
to tackle the inequality that exists within the

550
01:31:30.310 --> 01:31:31.350
and what?

551
01:31:31.630 --> 01:31:43.359
Well can you give people who are advice who are working in the policy? Really expensive research? Do you want to trust you? How good? Yeah. Coming up good.

552
01:31:46.800 --> 01:31:52.180
I think. thanks for the question, I think.

553
01:31:52.810 --> 01:32:03.729
we need to sort of challenge this thing about that. There's not enough supply, because there is enough housing supplies. This is not distributed fairly enough. So

554
01:32:03.980 --> 01:32:23.460
I guess from my research, what I'm finding is there's this. the way that people sort of talk about housing and public housing, and the way that they stigmatize it. What the the result of that is that they're setting a They're sort of claiming their territory, they're saying, like.

555
01:32:23.460 --> 01:32:36.499
you know, I sort of, or you know, we need to keep this for ourselves and those stigmatised people over there are not allowed to have housing, and that stops it from being distributed properly.

556
01:32:36.590 --> 01:32:52.860
And it's a very political thing, and you see, politicians doing it all the time, and I'm a politician myself, but I see other people doing it like they're stigmatising. And by doing that they're actually gaining support for themselves

557
01:32:53.000 --> 01:33:12.100
from the the people who they think they're kind of. kind of claiming the space on behalf of. So you know, by saying, for instance, if you were gonna say, you know homeowners? the best, you know, or like we, you know, we need to support homeowners more because

558
01:33:12.100 --> 01:33:26.709
the other people don't matter. Then what what you're doing is you, you're basically justifying the the the current policies that that currently support asset owners more so than others.

559
01:33:26.810 --> 01:33:54.990
so I think the way to overcome that, or 1 one way, perhaps, would be to actually call it out. And then, when so when people stigmatize public housing to to call out that. Well, what you're doing is is your you're excluding these people. and yeah, I don't know. I mean that that's just sort of a a thing I just thought of. Then

560
01:33:56.030 --> 01:33:58.580
any other speakers who would like to

561
01:33:58.590 --> 01:34:00.910
tackle that question. We'll go.

562
01:34:02.510 --> 01:34:06.900
You don't have to. I don't feel any pressure. Yeah.

563
01:34:07.070 --> 01:34:22.259
yeah. Also off the top of my head a little bit. But yeah, I think the idea of home ownership, and especially the commodification of housing, is something that needs to be tackled. I think it was good when you said, it's obvious that we need more supply. I think a few of us will

564
01:34:22.430 --> 01:34:26.450
do we. It's one of those.

565
01:34:26.600 --> 01:34:54.389
how to perceive wisdom that we take to be true, but I mean, your research showed it was like a million unoccupied properties for one reason or another, and that might also be to do with actually regulating Airbnb. That kind of you know, those kind of short term rental market that we've seen such an increase on that also have a huge impact on the housing market right? And that are also part of the investment landscape. Very much so, maybe more than 2,

566
01:34:54.390 --> 01:35:06.310
you know, kind of private, long term rental. So. But I think, you know, tackling, you know the commodification of housing, returning to a place where housing is a right

567
01:35:06.410 --> 01:35:18.860
So the Madden and Mccarthy that you used it. It's it's it's a right, it's not. It shouldn't be an investment. It should not be our main source of of income and wealth.

568
01:35:18.910 --> 01:35:32.639
and yeah, that we need to think about the the inequalities it creates like, who has the wealth, who can pass on the intergenerational wealth that's necessary that other people have spoken to another sessions as well.

569
01:35:33.030 --> 01:35:36.780
I just wanted to add, I think also, that

570
01:35:36.790 --> 01:35:42.920
I mean the supply is is a part of the thing, but it's not the thing.

571
01:35:43.290 --> 01:35:48.460
And I think there's so many people with skin in the game now of keeping housing prices up.

572
01:35:49.010 --> 01:35:53.520
And politically, it's really unpalatable to deal with

573
01:35:53.780 --> 01:35:56.040
capital gains tax discount.

574
01:35:56.140 --> 01:36:00.569
to deal with, Airbnb to deal with.

575
01:36:00.770 --> 01:36:04.829
you know. Not that I'm saying government has to deal with this. But

576
01:36:05.570 --> 01:36:15.599
what do you do with the fact that a lot of people who are moving into aged care, for example, they're leaving their houses vacant, or their families are waiting until they die to do something with the house.

577
01:36:15.790 --> 01:36:34.240
with people who are not downsizing. I mean, not that, you know it's it's really difficult thing about if you've been in your home your entire life, just because your kids have moved out and your husband or your wife has died you shouldn't have to move, but that is also part of the there's a it's such a complicated thing, I think.

578
01:36:34.660 --> 01:36:48.570
and that if if one is to try and identify well, what are some things? The key things that have happened in the last 30 to 40 years that have radically changed the affordability of housing. So

579
01:36:48.860 --> 01:36:52.710
that sort of that side of the part of the equation

580
01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:56.429
there are things you can point to, but reversing those things

581
01:36:56.690 --> 01:37:02.350
in is insanely difficult. Given. How many people have skin in the game? Yeah.

582
01:37:02.510 --> 01:37:12.630
who you want to. Alan, do you want to take that question? Have you had a look at that question there at all. Do you want to take that on notice while we see if there's anyone else

583
01:37:13.260 --> 01:37:16.180
you you you have a look at that. Yeah.

584
01:37:18.670 --> 01:37:26.079
you and Andrew, do you want to ask a question in the short term? Yeah.

585
01:37:26.690 --> 01:37:29.010
it's a question from Flavia. Yeah.

586
01:37:30.050 --> 01:37:40.570
okay, thank you all for a very interesting session. I've got a question, probably, mostly, for

587
01:37:41.040 --> 01:37:45.680
I agree with your priming of

588
01:37:45.690 --> 01:37:47.000
issue around.

589
01:37:47.420 --> 01:37:49.350
Why it?

590
01:37:51.110 --> 01:37:53.950
But I think that the reason there there is

591
01:37:54.230 --> 01:38:02.540
I'm very wanted to have a problem with you in a fully deployment situation, and one of the reason is that what the record. How many of them

592
01:38:04.070 --> 01:38:12.759
notice that there is a degree of this? There's a kind of a group of emerging people with complex nature in this, but the idea is that

593
01:38:13.320 --> 01:38:18.179
to really go back this.

594
01:38:19.360 --> 01:38:22.590
it's a little timing that that are kind of

595
01:38:23.380 --> 01:38:34.490
excused from the kind of normal, you know. Liberal expectations of

596
01:38:34.600 --> 01:38:38.910
and I wonder if it's I mean, it's thing is obviously still there, and you see it here.

597
01:38:40.420 --> 01:38:44.170
But I wonder if it's a little bit more about how we so

598
01:38:44.560 --> 01:38:46.939
conceptually stratify the housing system.

599
01:38:47.630 --> 01:38:51.290
You have a function of

600
01:38:56.300 --> 01:38:59.819
part of rental's transitional high-

601
01:39:01.370 --> 01:39:02.329
it's kind of

602
01:39:02.440 --> 01:39:08.479
yeah. But I just like to kind of have a question.

603
01:39:12.380 --> 01:39:41.879
Thank you for that. Yeah. Look, I I agree, I think, that there is a element where that. Some of it is maybe not a steamer times, but I think when I compare to what I found in Vienna, whether there was absolutely no Sigma. Attached to public housing, at least not in the the people who were in those positions of power who were

604
01:39:41.940 --> 01:39:55.580
making decisions or working in that field to produce the public housing. I didn't find any kind of stigmatization whatsoever, and I think that

605
01:39:55.580 --> 01:40:15.449
in Sydney, and and probably a lot of other places in Australia and around the world as well. They're this And as you were saying, there's this kind of stratification where even people who are in private rent halls to some regularly feel like they're not really the foolish citizens, because they're like owning a home.

606
01:40:15.890 --> 01:40:20.949
So yeah, it's kind of

607
01:40:21.250 --> 01:40:40.040
 you know.

608
01:40:40.040 --> 01:40:53.159
And yeah, so and I think it's actually done on purpose. And it's part of some accumulation and keeping accumulation going. And and and yeah, that

609
01:40:53.190 --> 01:41:07.160
I sort of.

610
01:41:07.360 --> 01:41:14.809
We're going to hire an extremely stratified society again, like like it was in one of the okay.

611
01:41:18.760 --> 01:41:26.019
Alan, would you like to? Flavio's raised a really interesting question in the chat. There, that's talking about lots of different dynamics.

612
01:41:26.459 --> 01:41:27.900
I think.

613
01:41:27.959 --> 01:41:34.470
Now, probably I don't disagree with you, but I think you know, if you are a low-income household.

614
01:41:34.730 --> 01:41:39.679
you want to get into the housing market because the private rental sector is so incredibly insecure.

615
01:41:40.000 --> 01:41:49.219
and you never know what what's going to happen, you know, in a few months time you might. So the rent might be increased, untenable level, etc., etc. So

616
01:41:49.350 --> 01:41:59.689
I think there's this desperate, there's there's a realization that you know, home ownership is potentially very positive. Obviously. But you're right. I'm going to, you know. I think increasingly.

617
01:42:00.760 --> 01:42:05.610
people are very vulnerable with in home ownership, but nevertheless.

618
01:42:05.920 --> 01:42:12.169
and people are extremely vulnerable in the private rental sector. So there's this very strong desire to

619
01:42:12.520 --> 01:42:15.570
her home because we'll purchase her

620
01:42:15.969 --> 01:42:21.660
because it obviously potentially creates a lot more stability for the household.

621
01:42:21.780 --> 01:42:24.329
So if that's answering your question

622
01:42:25.370 --> 01:42:31.660
good all the way from Brazil. There you go.

623
01:42:31.780 --> 01:42:43.709
Okay, very nice to see you.

624
01:42:43.920 --> 01:42:52.629
99% in Australia. I don't think it's it's not like Europe where a lot of Israelis are buying homes in.

625
01:42:53.049 --> 01:42:55.260
I don't think it has a phenomenon.

626
01:42:56.080 --> 01:43:00.140
Very few Australians, I think, investing in other countries.

627
01:43:00.370 --> 01:43:05.639
I think it's very much Australian. Can. I just say one thing in response to your

628
01:43:05.770 --> 01:43:11.880
policy issue. I think one thing people forget is that between 1,985 and 1,995,

629
01:43:12.070 --> 01:43:18.730
115,000 social homes with those. That's that's interesting, you know. So it is possible.

630
01:43:19.110 --> 01:43:35.639
I think the other thing is that's really the Cr, you know, there needs to be a I at a mission that this is a national crisis and some type of obviously, federal government has to be very involved. And maybe there needs to be a target and a percentage. You know that, say 2% of

631
01:43:36.120 --> 01:43:47.619
the Government's budget of, I think, at 650,000,050,000,000,000 at least should be spent on housing, which would be any which would be 13 billion a year, or whatever.

632
01:43:47.770 --> 01:44:07.369
you know, they find 350 billion for submarines, of course. And yeah, yeah, I'm wondering if your question is, is it the same in other countries, or the same proportion of people having investment properties?

633
01:44:07.990 --> 01:44:10.940
Is that what you mean like? How? How? How is

634
01:44:13.770 --> 01:44:24.979
Hila Zaban: I? I meant how many are doing it in Australia versus to other countries investing, not just in Australia, but in other countries.

635
01:44:27.100 --> 01:44:32.759
We've got about 5 more minutes, so there's probably time for one or 2 more questions. If there's anything outstanding.

636
01:44:35.090 --> 01:44:36.570
Yes, please

637
01:44:46.800 --> 01:44:52.900
I, this is kind of full set that every world of I'm generalizing is with very much blood for us.

638
01:44:53.080 --> 01:44:55.659
is it currently the

639
01:44:56.090 --> 01:44:59.869
debate as a sense in the last few weeks, and that's his little

640
01:44:59.970 --> 01:45:05.170
labor seems to be resisting the

641
01:45:05.710 --> 01:45:08.420
any sort of more radical change. The price of the

642
01:45:09.550 --> 01:45:11.609
I'm setting up this.

643
01:45:13.130 --> 01:45:21.690
but he doesn't have a full-time thing. I'm always trying to. And we've seen a real

644
01:45:23.790 --> 01:45:30.640
mobilization of mainstream media to position the greens as this as blocking.

645
01:45:30.720 --> 01:45:34.600
something something real, something that's happening.

646
01:45:34.670 --> 01:45:37.050
And the greens are the reason that

647
01:45:37.080 --> 01:45:41.150
people don't have 4 times. So I guess.

648
01:45:41.400 --> 01:45:53.330
What is the If if if we're looking at a at a situation where things are disembedded at a not only at a party political level, but also the the cultural machinery level.

649
01:45:53.530 --> 01:46:00.149
Maybe it can be mobilized like this. One of the fault lines that need to be pressed upon in order to.

650
01:46:00.270 --> 01:46:01.340
We're trying to

651
01:46:03.070 --> 01:46:03.950
easy one.

652
01:46:11.020 --> 01:46:12.630
Circumstances

653
01:46:15.860 --> 01:46:28.630
I don't know. Maybe I should take this one, although I notice that there's a lot of other green sort of related people in the room as well. But I'm an elected greens representative on base like council.

654
01:46:28.680 --> 01:46:36.219
 so that's you know, full disclosure against my.

655
01:46:36.460 --> 01:46:59.900
yeah. So the fault lines, what? What? What do we do about this? I guess. Some. you know, I think there is a strategy to sort of appeal to branches as well. And then, and because there's so many rankers now, and in Australia. It's sort of like, I guess, trying to set up more of a sort of solidarity with the French as well. But

656
01:46:59.950 --> 01:47:13.499
that's sort of from the Greens point of view. But if you're looking at, what can we do as a people for a movement?

657
01:47:13.910 --> 01:47:15.600
I guess

658
01:47:15.740 --> 01:47:17.050
a

659
01:47:17.750 --> 01:47:30.259
I don't know for me, I I guess, because of what I've been looking at me with my research is that it sort of comes down to solidarity again. And and people just not having, you know.

660
01:47:31.360 --> 01:47:48.650
Okay, so it's build buildings on the dirty. And a lot of people are already trying to do that. You know, a lot of housing activists are actually doing that and But then, you know, you come up against the thing that you've got the corporate mania and sharing. So it it is very, very hard, but I guess we've just got to keep going. Yeah.

661
01:47:48.950 --> 01:47:53.059
sorry I can.

662
01:47:53.900 --> 01:47:57.540
Anyone else like Alan has said, is that a tentative?

663
01:47:59.390 --> 01:48:01.959
You know you want to.

664
01:48:03.980 --> 01:48:18.189
 Well, I think things are. There is a bit of a fault line in the sense that I think labor is very worried about inner city seats. And so you know, they put another 2 billion. So that's interesting.

665
01:48:18.660 --> 01:48:27.700
And I think they are concerned. I I don't know if the green strategy has been all that hot actually, I mean in terms of calling, for I rain freeze. I think that was

666
01:48:27.720 --> 01:48:29.040
maybe a bit.

667
01:48:29.200 --> 01:48:35.250
 Well, I think it weakened their position because it made them look that after left us.

668
01:48:35.390 --> 01:48:46.229
 you know I think I rent cap. These, which I think they move to now is is a much better option in terms of the debate. But anyway.

669
01:48:46.240 --> 01:48:59.829
But I think there, I think labor's quite, you know. It's clearly very concerned, and if you look at the last election, it would seem that a seats which we are dominant, that we were dominated, that are dominated by renters

670
01:48:59.950 --> 01:49:05.820
generally voted. You know, we're more prone to vote for the green, so that that is very interesting.

671
01:49:06.090 --> 01:49:09.500
So I think it is a trends and which they are concerned about

672
01:49:09.810 --> 01:49:10.550
the

673
01:49:13.400 --> 01:49:20.400
let's leave it there. Thank you very much. Everybody. Our Greta, Jessica Allen. Thank you for presenting.

674
01:49:22.660 --> 01:49:28.400
thank you to all online. I appreciate it, having you here and

675
01:49:28.760 --> 01:49:31.250
see you at the next session.

676
01:49:32.580 --> 01:49:45.000
Oh, also, I really should thank Hannah. It is Hannah. I remember that quickly. Great Hannah, who has been managing the tech and much appreciated. Thank you. Bye, everybody, thank you.