WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:07.000 Yes. Sort of to begin I need to acknowledge. 2 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:21.000 Sure, sorry. So to begin I need to acknowledge that we're meeting here on the laundry people's land of the cooler people's land of the Cooler Nation and I want to pay respects to their elders. 3 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:33.000 And present and recognise that this is unseeded. Lands. We also want to extend my respect to any other indigenous elders in the room. 4 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:41.000 And make the suggestion at the outset thinking about this project I'm about to report on and the theme of the future environmental sociology. 5 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:51.000 That there is actually work to do. For us in this subfield to respond to the challenge to sociology from the Indigenous. 6 00:00:51.000 --> 00:01:04.000 Scholars and practitioners that we heard in the session before. So. I'm reporting on a project I've been working on for about 2 and a half years. 7 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:18.000 It's probably typical of what we do in environmental sociology. It's an interdisciplinary team but within the environmental social sciences led by political theorist David Schlossberg, human geographer Lauren Rickards. 8 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:24.000 And 2 excellent research assistants Hannah Della Bosca and Ollie Murray. 9 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:32.000 So we're all co-authors on actually 4 papers that are coming out of a big study that we've done asking. 10 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:48.000 What does environmental justice mean in this historical moment? Where is it going ultimately with regard to reform? And and social political transformative change. 11 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:56.000 In part it's a response via David to a lot of writing in this field that environmental justice research is at a crossroads. 12 00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:06.000 It's under pressure as a concept because of the scale and temporality of climate change and the intersecting Earth system processes that are rupturing. 13 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:18.000 We've got a range of social complexities in terms of the material effects of power and axes of difference that need to be worked through when we make claims about environmental justice. 14 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:33.000 There are philosophical complexities with regard to how to make plural justice ideas legible and how to thoroughly decolonize that in terms of the liberal tenants of justice thinking that plagues us with this concept. 15 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:40.000 And of course those big questions of how to achieve reform, how to deal with the state. And I want to come to that at the end. 16 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:49.000 But in short, the findings of our research which is a survey of 75 people who are scholars of environmental justice. 17 00:02:49.000 --> 00:03:10.000 And and or activist practitioners is that We've got a consensus on what is called the critical approach to environmental justice focusing on relations of capital, the ongoing colonial legacies and structures that we're dealing with, problems of race, structural racism and gender. 18 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:24.000 I'm going to speak to some of the differences within that consensus. With particular view to what our respondents had to say about a combination of strategy and tactics that they write and think about and do. 19 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:35.000 So the strong agreement in that we've found is that doing environmental justice strategically means that constant work of putting racial and socioeconomic injustices at the center of environmental campaigning. 20 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:53.000 In terms of understanding the problems of change as a very clear critique of the state. And strategies to try to disrupt and decolonize extractive capitalism. 21 00:03:53.000 --> 00:04:10.000 What that looks like tactically is building power from below and as I indicated early we've got some questions about institutions to sort out particularly given that our team wants to think through policy in the second half of the project. 22 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:22.000 So we use Q methodology. Which is new for me. It's a mixed method kind of quantitative approach to discourse and analysis. 23 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:37.000 The first thing that it involves is surveying a field of discourse in our case environmental justice. And, and I suppose sorting out what sorts of claims are made in this field. 24 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:53.000 We ended up with 1,350 statements about the meanings. Barriers and what we called enablers for environmental justice drawn from about 300 publications, about half of them activist half of them academic. 25 00:04:53.000 --> 00:05:05.000 We sorted them into a smaller set of statements that then turned into 3 online surveys that 3 groups of 25 people engaged with. 26 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:20.000 The first thing those very helpful participants did was sift through the statements we taken from the literature and said, you know, responded whether they agree, disagree or if they are neutral with regard to the statement. 27 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:27.000 And they're online because it's in the middle of the lockdowns. And they are given on the platform. 28 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:43.000 A kind of initial sort. In the bell curve of ideas. And they asked to further refine what their priorities are when it comes to either defining the meaning of environmental justice, the barriers to this goal or what enables it. 29 00:05:43.000 --> 00:06:00.000 And as I as I moved before our first paper that's under review at the moment comes to the conclusion that when not we're well past kind of liberal typologies of justice. 30 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:11.000 There is a pretty strong consensus. That to do environmental justice as a practitioner or as a theorist is to focus on transforming power relations. 31 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:20.000 Increasing decolonial analysis and practice and transcending the western roots of the movement. So theories of justice can be more inclusive and radical. 32 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:33.000 These are actually quotes from Oh, I've gotten her name now. It's it's lost on me but quotes from 2 publications that were the priority statements that sat at the center of the consensus we interpreted. 33 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:43.000 I should say that after the survey we also did a number of follow-up interviews and focus groups. To test the themes I'm about to share with you. 34 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:52.000 So we've got a critical environmental justice consensus. When it comes to asking people to think about the barriers. 35 00:06:52.000 --> 00:07:02.000 The consensus is fairly unsurprising. Okay, a strong agreement about the nature of corporate power being the problem. 36 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:10.000 State enabling of corporate power, institutionalized corruption basically at micro and macro scales. 37 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.000 People who loaded, if you like, into this. Discourse or approach to thinking about barriers didn't agree much. 38 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:23.000 Actually all Everybody didn't agree much on the question of where the movement stands in as a barrier or not. 39 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:42.000 So we've got a kind of productive tension there that's common. But in terms of the first theme, organized and targeted oppression is what came out of the analysis. 40 00:07:42.000 --> 00:08:12.000 The second dimension, if you like, of barriers to environmental justice focuses on the way our legal and sociopolitical systems present barriers to change and the people who oriented towards statements that draw these themes out tend to be focused on national and local struggles not so much on building global alliances. 41 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:39.000 A third cluster or subgroup. Brought out the theme of seeing policy itself. As a barrier that brackets out or denies social justice concerns within environmental protection policy and then the final form of barrier that our respondents emphasized related to bureaucratic cultures married with a sense of dilemma, strategic 42 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:40.000 dilemma. When it comes to campaigning. So you see this statement on the far bottom left. 43 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:53.000 Environmental activism that averts harms in one location can redistribute the focus and effects of that harm elsewhere. 44 00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:10.000 This is one of the distinguishing statements that people who oriented there ended up prioritizing. We in the paper we've written on this on barriers see this as obviously reinforcing interlocking barriers to environmental justice and a pretty scathing critique. 45 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:28.000 Of the state. What do people say in the more positive sense when we ask them to respond to what enables environmental justice. 46 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:35.000 This is the more tentative part of our research. It's it's less developed paper. It's not up to the review submission stage. 47 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:47.000 The biggest, I should say, the conceits here, interestingly, focuses on the role of women who, interestingly, focuses on the role of women who lead environmental justice movements. 48 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:55.000 On incorporating socioeconomic and racial and justice into environmental campaigns and tackling systemic racism. 49 00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:00.000 So there's a sense in which that's the work as an end in itself. The biggest factor reflects that. 50 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:12.000 That really the work of thoroughly and deeply decolonizing environmental movements and society is called strategic business. 51 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:22.000 And hear the statements people prioritize are about focusing on Indigenous people's rights. And care for land against capitalist production. 52 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:49.000 And the other statements really focus on what it means to decolonize movement practice. The second way of thinking about what enables environmental justice relates to disruption, resetting the terms of what it means to take action through plural solidarity and the third theme focuses on building power from below, elevating local knowages, tactical use 53 00:10:49.000 --> 00:11:00.000 of media and technology and so on. So all of this kind of amounts to what I summarize here. 54 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:18.000 So what's the so what? For us, the so-called is how can we as scholars for facilitate and a deeper understanding of what it means to try to build change in difficult environments when we have ad hoc. 55 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:44.000 And basically obstructive but sometimes concessionary responses from the state. Our next steps is to investigate how these ideas match against actual movement practice in Australia, particularly thinking about the fact we've got new rounds of environmental policy making, carbon markets, biodiversity offset markets growing so more strategic dilemmas emerging. 56 00:11:44.000 --> 00:12:00.000 Net 0 commitments that center concepts of just transition and benefit sharing with First Nations people. Ad hoc but not good enough re-regulation of coal and gas. 57 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:24.000 State based climate adaptation policy. So where we're going with this is to say, well the ever steam of environmental justice obviously needs to be investigated in the way that we have but what about when those ideas hit the material conditions of campaigning and how are people navigating the limits of the state that we know are there through 58 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:43.000 these scholarship. And so I'm interested to know what you think. Of where EJ practice seems to be going and thank you for your time. 59 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:53.000 Yeah. 60 00:12:53.000 --> 00:13:00.000 The question, selection. The school will work for a with just. 61 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:08.000 Is having Yeah. 62 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:22.000 Okay. No, I would like to invite online presentation against Paul Jobin is from Iraq. Very much worried about his presentations. 63 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:34.000 We're doing that on how can I present my I don't know. The floor is yours. 64 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:43.000 You can go ahead and share your screen and we're ready for you. 65 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:49.000 Additions or we've got his presentations and he can talk about it. I'll let you. 66 00:13:49.000 --> 00:14:03.000 Well, I'm sorry, I cannot share my screen, but I send my slide. Can someone's Okay, so 67 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Just let me know when you want me to scroll. 68 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:12.000 Thank you very much. Good morning every10, it's morning here in London. I'm here for another conference. 69 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:31.000 And so I'm gonna continue this, through this, Cool. Okay. 70 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:46.000 Excuse me. Okay. So maybe next time. 71 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:52.000 Yeah, thank you. So. 72 00:14:52.000 --> 00:15:00.000 Okay. 73 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.000 Yeah, so my 74 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:08.000 I'm sorry, I think this is the old version of my PowerPoint. 75 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:16.000 I send a new version but Okay. 76 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:17.000 Yeah, I, sorry, that's the old version. 77 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:21.000 Let me check. Let me check. We go on. That's okay. I'll check what we have. 78 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:48.000 Okay. 79 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.000 This is the I mean one we have. I'm sorry. 80 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:59.000 Okay. 81 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:13.000 Okay, never mind then. Let me just, read what I prepared. My curiosity for this topic debts back some 25 years ago when I was doing research for my PhD on industry operation in Japan. 82 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:26.000 Late Professor Weejun told me about his personal experience of World War II. And now this led him to come back research on minima type disease and other cases of industrial pollution in post-war Japan. 83 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Accepted some very rare cases such as the South Korean DMZ ecological niche. I believe with wigeon that war brings no benefit for the environment. 84 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:45.000 Especially if we think about the legacy of Nepal chest and chemical warfare. Can be very, very long. 85 00:16:45.000 --> 00:17:01.000 Back to Vietnam after 1995 a GI faced 2 babies born with terrible infirmities due to the the legacy impact of agent or orange during his during the Vietnam War. 86 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:09.000 He was completely horrified and ashamed and he asked How long is a war when it's harder? 87 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:22.000 So more recently climate scientist Michael Mann has used the metaphor of war. To describe the fight against the lobbying of climate deniers. 88 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Beyond the metaphor for the UN Secretary General Antonio Gutierrez. 89 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:37.000 During a conference and environment at the UN. He said the Russian migration of Ukraine I'm caught. 90 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:52.000 Is deeply linked with the climate crisis. And it shows our continued reliance on fossil fuels that the global economy and energy security at the mercy of geopolitical shocks. 91 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:59.000 The collective volume entitled, Like, Girl Showed, The Hot War. Gathering French scholars of environmental issues and experts of the military. 92 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:15.000 They looked at what climate change means for the military. And the other way around what the military and war mean for climate change. 93 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:28.000 Or how to adapt the military to these changes and reduce its covered footprints or what a recent publication called the carbon bootpoint. 94 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:39.000 In another thread of literature, Mark Bison Advocated for China in Singapore as models of environmental authoritarianism. 95 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:52.000 As the most efficient answers to the climate emergency. While Joel Wrenwright and Jeff Mann opposed to global capitalist regime of climate Leviitan. 96 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:57.000 And the anti-capitalist regime of climate now. 97 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:07.000 Well, in Taiwan we feel kind of crunched. Between climate Leviathan and climate now. 98 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:23.000 While the US and China are competing for global legimony Taiwanese 99 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:32.000 Sorry, Taiwanese need to find the way between the climate emergency and the defence of the island. 100 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:37.000 De facto independence and its democratic regime. 101 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:55.000 In that context, with my research assistance we are trying to evaluate the carbon footprint of climate cost of the military tensions in the Taiwan Straits. 102 00:19:55.000 --> 00:20:03.000 I'm sorry, perhaps we can use the previous version because Hello there, is there anyone for technical assistance? 103 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:04.000 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 104 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Yeah, could you just, show that the, old version as well? Have a nothing to see. 105 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.000 Yeah, yeah, maybe. 1 s. 106 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Okay, can you just go down? I think I'm my time is. Running back still have some time yeah otherwise yeah go please next next next Okay, this I told already okay next 107 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:50.000 Next. Okay, okay here. So, we are trying to calculate the carbon footprint of, on in other words, the climate cost of the milli tent the mini tent the military tensions in the Taiwan Straits. 108 00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:01.000 Next. We look at the reports of the Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense on the almost daily flights by Taiwan Air Force. 109 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Next please. 110 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:21.000 And to, because the, you know, almost every day the Chinese military Chinese Air Force is intruding in the air space of Taiwan. 111 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:29.000 So, Kaiwani's army, Taiwanese armed forces need to react and And so they have to to take off almost every day. 112 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:41.000 So, and you know the jet, military jets use a lot of fuels. Next slide please. 113 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:52.000 We look at, we've referred to the work of NETa Crawford, her work on the pentagon few use. 114 00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:01.000 She calculated that based on the data she has, the Pentagon is the heaviest user of has the biggest carbon footprint. 115 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:21.000 So far in the world. But she analyzed that Due to the lack of know of data coming about China and other military a big countries like Russia or Actually, it's easier to calculate the penticles bootpoint compared to other countries. 116 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:48.000 So we try to. Address this blind uncle of the global carbon footprint to look at China's blueprint and in particular activity in the Taiwan's trade. 117 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.000 So next slide please. 118 00:22:52.000 --> 00:23:08.000 I'm sorry, still in Chinese. Excuse me. So we use our, our formula to calculate for each category of military of our chat. 119 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:26.000 How much fuel they use and according to the distance they have to take off from China and going into Taiwan airspace and and to convert that into metric terms of carbon emissions. 120 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000 Next slide, please. 121 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:43.000 Yes, sorry. But yeah, I'm a supporters because at this stage we are, are actually, meeting, We have real difficulty. 122 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:52.000 To find relevant data. So I'm afraid I can't deliver what I was, I hope I could deliver the findings today. 123 00:23:52.000 --> 00:24:10.000 But I'm afraid I will not be able to do that. So, for the remainder of this presentation, I would just like to share with you a couple of. 124 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:33.000 Findings of previous findings I had in relation with the looking at the connection between war and traditional war and the so-called climate worlds or the climate emergency. 125 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:43.000 So in in a couple of papers, maybe I'm not sure this is the old version maybe next slide please 126 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:51.000 Okay. Next. Next. 127 00:24:51.000 --> 00:25:00.000 Next Next, sorry, this is the old version. Next, please. 128 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.000 Yeah. 129 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:10.000 Next space. Next. Next. Okay, this no previous one yeah 130 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.000 Yes, okay. So that's it. 131 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:21.000 Yeah. 132 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:33.000 Okay. So, in a couple of papers starting with in 2,018, I used 2 threads of surveys conducted by my institute. 133 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.000 One deals with the surveys conducted by my institute. One deals with the environmental risk. One deals with the environmental risk and with questions on the level of concern regarding the effects of climate change on the level of concern regarding the effects of climate change, pollution or nuclear plants. 134 00:25:35.000 --> 00:26:05.000 With questions on the level of concern regarding the effects of climate change, pollution or nuclear plants. The other thread of surveys deals with pressure from China the thing the US would send troops to help Taiwan and these kind of questions. 135 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:13.000 But you know when CORRETTED sociology spread the news into quantitative surveys, they always have caveats. 136 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:29.000 In the back of the head such as Pierre Buddha's ironical remark on the As I said, surveys ask odd questions to people who don't really care about it, but they kindly reply to people like Taiwanese are very polite. 137 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:41.000 Especially when compared with French people, originally from friends myself. And he's very polite. So I guess a lot of questions we have in surveys. 138 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:48.000 It's not people that people are Don't really care, but I mean they're just trying to cope with the interviewer, right? 139 00:26:48.000 --> 00:27:11.000 So. It's personally I I understand very much crossing different methodologies like quantitative surveys with even big data analysis that's a new possibility for sociology that I think quite interesting, especially when we are crossing political sociology. 140 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:24.000 Ironical sociology. But I gave in the virtue of ethnographic observation. So I conducted different fieldwork observation in Taiwan. 141 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:29.000 And the next slide, please. 142 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:46.000 In this book, to paper, in, in this, copy volume with my colleagues and from Taiwan, Hong Kong and Southeast Asia, we look at issues of environmental politics and environmental justice in different countries. 143 00:27:46.000 --> 00:28:04.000 And we challenge the authoritarian environmental authority and museums of Maurice and other authors. And doing whiz through a qualitative observation of environmental justice movements in these countries. 144 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:12.000 In my chapter on Taiwan I 145 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:31.000 I argued that throughout the democratization of the country since the mid 1,980, s ecological activities have developed where called a civic nationalism and civic echo nationalism, a coherence for ecological, true on the work of Jane Dozen on Soviet anti-inuclear movement in Soviet 146 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:46.000 Union. So the combination of, it's, it's a combination of environmental protection movements, content formation or sovereignty and adherence to democratic values. 147 00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:54.000 In other words, I argue there is a sort of continuum between environmental protection and defence of the territory. 148 00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:07.000 So I find another example of that cocktail. In an ongoing field work with another colleague on the recent development of civil defense organizations in Taiwan. 149 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:15.000 Oh, it's a paper I we have presented already in another ISA panel on the on the civilian military relations. 150 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:24.000 And civil difference organizations are, it's a recent, very recent movement in Taiwan. 151 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:41.000 They started 2 or 3 years ago, but the war in Ukraine really boosted that movement. It includes all kind of people even young women some of them and and do the organization aren't trained Yeah. 152 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:42.000 Yeah. Oh, okay. 153 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:46.000 Hello all your time is over now you may wind up within 1 min please only 1 min 154 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:58.000 Okay, so I'm almost down. so and finally I, in a forthcoming paper with another colleague from Taiwan. 155 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:08.000 I follow on the work of Puno Lateur, with whom we You curated, 2 years ago he created a type ABNO. 156 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Important part organisation and we had the collaboration with him. And following on that work, we, we and this notion of Gaia politics. 157 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:32.000 We we argue that the the limit of, Sorry. We good that the climate emergency can be seen as matter of territorial defence. 158 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:43.000 This implies to find some sort of compromise between security and terrestrial as well as globalization. Thank you very much and so sorry for that. 159 00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:57.000 And being late. 160 00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:11.000 Can you can listen? Yes, yes, Paul. Please be online. Let the time come to ask questions and suggestions, comments on your paper. 161 00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:16.000 Oh, okay. Yeah. 162 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.000 Okay. 163 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:20.000 So. You may mute yourself but be online please. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. 164 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:26.000 Now I invite next presenter a I think he's also online presenter. 165 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:27.000 Yes, I am. Hello. Yes. 166 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:37.000 Dohi Paligoni It is from, you know, STEPHEN. It is very much there. Welcome. 167 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.000 Hello? 168 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.000 Thank you very much. 169 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.000 Welcome, please. You may start your presentation please. And please see that time is 15 min for you. 170 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:48.000 It starts now. Thank you. 171 00:31:48.000 --> 00:32:13.000 Don't worry, I don't. Good afternoon or good morning to everybody. I tried to share my screen. 172 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:30.000 Okay, so. My presentation of today is a part of a project about trying to understand the environment evolution environmental governance from the perspective of the politics of time or chronopolitics. 173 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:41.000 So try to understand how this is changing, especially with the measures of new anticipatory processes or approaches like, preparedness. 174 00:32:41.000 --> 00:33:05.000 So this is more or less the overview. So first a few words about the modernity in time, the environmental governance approaches, then preparedness then 2 2 examples and then a question mark about the possible emergence of a new post-secure 175 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:17.000 So first of all, just to recall, for well known and distinction between governmental approaches, summit and discipline and security. 176 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:25.000 He says the security is emerging. In the last period of, modernity since the late eighteenth century. 177 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:35.000 And, The idea is not to, control properly. The processes but control them indirectly. 178 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:50.000 Basically by way of anticipating their own development and keeping this development within a chosen threshold. So the element of anticipation of future is crucial. 179 00:33:50.000 --> 00:34:10.000 To security and government targeting and this is pretty in line with the importance of a time in future. In the modern ontology and in this picture I just showed that there can be 2 types of relation with the future. 180 00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:39.000 One is trivial banner in the sense that we can establish quite clear connection. With hindsight historical knowledge for the past or with the planning or prediction probabilistic position for the future, but it can be also complex relationship in the future, which in my view are taking hold more and more. 181 00:34:39.000 --> 00:35:06.000 Complex relationship means that, a rather than planning for casting and for site we have to deal with the latent processes something is potentially ongoing not to clearly understandable quite undisclosed but that we feel it is running and we try to make sense to get some way to to deal with that. 182 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:19.000 So that's say there, so supposing that there is an important relationship between the modern governmentality, the control of future and the way in which the control of future is possibly changing. 183 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:29.000 Then we if we go to the classic. Topology over meta governance approaches so commanding control market basis self regulation or negotiated policies the 3 generations of environmental policies. 184 00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:49.000 One question is whether now we are still of course with that now we are still of course dealing with all 3 of them now we are still of course dealing with all 3 of them but is there a time, dealing with all 3 of them, but is there a timescape, remain, the same or, 185 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:55.000 since, timescape, remain the same or, the same or, since, the last years and most recent years, it has been changed. So this is my question. 186 00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:06.000 We 3 basic, types of, governance approaches, but possibly with the different different temporality. 187 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:25.000 Of course the basic structure of environmental governance is a prevention and precaution. I of course don't go into the details of this but we know that the difference between prevention and precaution is the level of understanding of the processes ongoing. 188 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:31.000 So the lack of sufficient knowledge to make proper probabilistic prediction. But the important thing is that the goal is still the same. 189 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:42.000 So to avert or eliminate the problem and the temporality is in both cases is linear. So there is a pastor present. 190 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:54.000 We act in the present to put to the future into control. The future is linearly connected with the present. 191 00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:07.000 And for sure the 3 types of policy instrument, mentioned traditionally belong to this governmental logic as they apply prevention or precaution. 192 00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Then preparedness, preparedness, that before is defined as a by United nation as forecasting and taking precautionary measure. 193 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:24.000 Also, if you go to Wikipedia, so it's going to talk about. Of a precautionary measure, disasters or trade. 194 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:48.000 The origins are in the military. Specially nuclear attacks and then bioterrorism then it has been adopted by the sanitary, field, regarding, epidemics and pandemics that as being course a lot and addressed during the COVID. 195 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:54.000 19. And most recently it has been extended to field security out of the overlap between different crisis. 196 00:37:54.000 --> 00:38:07.000 The end of the problem with mobilisation and the climate change but also climate change but also COVID-19 and the Ukraine war. 197 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.000 So the question is whether. 19 and the Ukraine war. So the question is whether preparation is just a variant or a different way. 198 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:14.000 So the question is whether preparation is just a variant or a different way to express the same notion of precaution is just a variant or a different way to express the same notion of precaution. 199 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:17.000 So dealing with something that we don't know a different way to express the same notion of precaution. 200 00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:22.000 So dealing with something that we don't know in in sufficient detail, so dealing with something that we don't know in in sufficient detail to properly predict or it is something different. 201 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:23.000 Of course, if you look at it, it is something, different. Of course, if you look at it as a policy package, or it is something, different. 202 00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:35.000 Of course, if you look at as a. Of course, if you look at as a as a policy package, we can find that preventive as a policy package, we can find that preventing a precaution in a policy package, we can find that preventing and percussion in 203 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:42.000 nature like, for example, stockpiling of vaccines or food or whatever. But there is also an element that is rather peculiar, which is called Vigilance. 204 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:55.000 And I will explain in a moment. And also the time structure tends to be changing, not linear, but kind of a loop. 205 00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:09.000 Digital answer means that, you have to detect not something a properly ill known about something that is hidden, they can erupt and manifest itself as suddenly with the surprise. 206 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:21.000 And so you need to have something else either biological or technological to detect early science or manifestation of the Detroit. 207 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:32.000 Like for example, non vaccinated domestic animals. And the, treasure between, farms and forests for example. 208 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:48.000 The important thing is that you, the goal is not to properly resolve. A problem rather to a manage it so to come into terms with the threat without the attempt to eliminate or the expectation to eliminate it. 209 00:39:48.000 --> 00:40:00.000 And so you have the different, loops and, returns and, the curcivity of approaches reaction from the trade, modulation of the response and so on and so forth. 210 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:09.000 So the question is whether or not this is still to be regarded as a security tenant approach or something different. 211 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:13.000 2 examples. They in Italy, the COVID-19 governance has been quite problematic as anywhere else. 212 00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:35.000 But just to pick out as 2 significant elements. There was a zoning system at the state of emergency. It's only system method that the territory was the divided into areas where the according to indicate also so signals, vigilance, sentinel, you could detect the development of the infection. 213 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:50.000 The problem is that the the measure of restriction or movement were taken after the detection of the movement of the infection. 214 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:57.000 So we are chasing rather than proceeding the processes and the event. So it was, you were chasing rather than proceeding the processes and the event. 215 00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:02.000 So it was, impossible to decide the processes and the event. So it was impossible to decide whether the action were successful to decide whether the action were successful or not. 216 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.000 And this would, impossible to decide whether the action were successful or not. And this would also allow the action were successful or not. 217 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And this would also, allow the indefinite continuation of the state of emergency. So, what is this? 218 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:32.000 Is this security? Not so, not so clearly because we have a modulation rather than attempt to resolve the crisis and you have a you go just beyond the traditional direct control and normalizing you also just because you are just changing and following the traditional direct control and normalizing also just because you are just chasing and following the movement of the of the trait 219 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:54.000 that you have to deal with. So you go basically with the trial and error. Most recently, in regarding food, the European Commission established a kind of mechanism of the early of detection and preparedness. 220 00:41:54.000 --> 00:42:01.000 These are the food crisis. And the most important, most relevant element of this is the establishment of the data dashboard to assess food security. 221 00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:16.000 And, the idea of diversification of production and trade a day of diversification of production and trade the supply chain. And, the idea of diversification of production and trade the supply chain. 222 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:38.000 Again, the question is what because diversification means that on one side stockpiling but how much as to power stop pilot this is unclear and how you diversify production trade supply chain not by 4 you have to restate the idea of free market, but it is not a free market understood in. 223 00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000 Television away because you have to privilege just some lines, some chains that give you more reliability than others. 224 00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000 So you enter in a very strange area or semi closed markets that is quite difficult to detect. And then to what you do after your sentence in the dashboard say you that you have a problem what you do at their lab. 225 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:29.000 This is totally unclear. So, if we put all these into the framework of the anthropocene and the kind of overlap or intertwining between 2 different narratives. 226 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:35.000 One is the planetary boundaries, so it's a kind of hyper-technology, or, a, a, bernetic idea of a control over the planetary variables and the other is Gaia. 227 00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:51.000 So Gaia means that the planet planet has its own dynamics that does not controllable. You just have to come to terms to that, to be resilient and so forth. 228 00:43:51.000 --> 00:44:21.000 So this very strange interplanning of these 2 apparently contrasting and you see that. The the emerging governance approaches are typically non-linear in the sense that they have a skeptological structure where you do something not to resolve the problem, but just to put it in under control in order to avoid that, a catastrophe of 229 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:36.000 cure. So this is a place to come on trading, climate engineering, climate engineering, biomimicry and a biotech or another. biomimicry and a biotech or another. 230 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:47.000 Skeptology is that of an iPod technological solution like a gain of function, regarding viruses and bacteria, ecosystem services, and climate adaptation solution and so on. 231 00:44:47.000 --> 00:45:17.000 Interestingly, when you have the, this catastrophic escapology, you have a framework of hyper-humanistic, So the structure is this one. The traditional one is on the top linear time. 232 00:45:30.000 --> 00:46:00.000 The emergent one is this kind of a loop, where the future never actualize itself. Because you have some force that opposes the catastrophe or that keeps the actualisation of the wonderful future technology of future that from realization and because of a environmentalist because of whatever reason you can find and you are captured in 233 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:34.000 this kind of loop and in the bottom this this kind of loop. And in the bottom, this anthropocenic temporality which is very strange enough time to deal with it, is very strange. 234 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.000 I don't know, this, anthropocenic temporality, which is very strange. 235 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:50.000 I don't have time to deal with it to be I'm studying it but you can see that this kind of contrast between deep temporalities and very compressed temporality of decision that you have to take right now and that the overflowing of your decision into the deeper future of geological time. 236 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:59.000 So it's very, very strange temporality. I come to the conclusion. So, this is an ongoing project. 237 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:16.000 So I'm no proper answers, but I think that it is quite interesting, quite important to analyze the emergent temporality of environmental politics because it has elements of novelty. 238 00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:19.000 So the kind of mingling of politics because it has elements of temporarily environmental politics because it has elements of novelty. 239 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:31.000 So the kind of mingling of linearity and environmental politics because it has elements of novelty. So the kind of mingling of linearity and and oscillation between hyper a modulation of trade selling the majesty's so we are captured in a and as present impossibility to distinguish between human and no human agency. 240 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:38.000 I have no time to address that but if you take a gain of functioning virus is very difficult it you could take COVID. 241 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:50.000 19 for example is very difficult to detect whether the the SAS GROB came out from a human action or a no human action. 242 00:47:50.000 --> 00:48:02.000 Impossibility to decide on success and failure to make a decision measure accountable. This is a very, very important from a governmental viewpoint because the lack of accountability. 243 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:11.000 Visa be success or failure is an emergent element and which may represent a big problem for oppositional forces. 244 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:36.000 So can we talk in this sense of a poster security environmentality. This is a question mark. So whether we have gone past the traditional security approach is typical of the momentum governance that we entered into this new structure where some elements of security still present in direct dealing with the province and whatever, but the overall goal. 245 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:44.000 To solve problems is over. And of course, the question back is what are the social ecological implications of that? 246 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:46.000 Thank you very much. 247 00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:53.000 Thank you. Thank you. Please. Be online. 248 00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:02.000 Wait for some time. If there are any questions or anything. Related to you, they will be communicated online. 249 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:16.000 Thank you so much. Now I invite the last presenter. Must be here. There are 3 more authors. 250 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:24.000 Main presenter is Fang Shui. W Is it good? Yes. Welcome, please. 251 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:34.000 Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I am Fung Shuu. I actually am a political scientist. 252 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:46.000 I teach environmental politics. I have 2 co-authors on this particular project and presentation, Elimatus. 253 00:49:46.000 --> 00:50:04.000 Lecture based in Griffiths University and David Soonfield who probably is better known to this crowd, particular audience very active and he did email me telling me in the past 20 years our C 24 was consider his intellectual community. 254 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:11.000 So he sends his greetings to all the colleagues here today. 255 00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:32.000 So we, the 3 of us, Ellie and I, we started working on comparative environmental politics in Russia and China a few years ago and then we had some thoughts and I talked to David because He has been working on illiberalism and environmental politics and advocacy for a while. 256 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:48.000 So I wanted to check with him whether he sees similarities between illiberalism in democratic societies and authoritarian Rue in structurally authoritarian states and the impact of these. 257 00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:59.000 Structural changes on environmental policies. That's the origin of this paper. Are very important. I do want to acknowledge that The presentation takes place on D. 258 00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:16.000 O. And Jerry People's Land and I normally work from the video and and people's land and In addition, I also want to acknowledge the tradition of honoring river. 259 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:28.000 Is not just. Flowing of water but also meeting places and exchanges of ideas such a beautiful concept and and a and tradition of the First Nations. 260 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:53.000 So I have quickly introduced a research. The origins of the research and the main Let me just quickly coming into it is the their sort of re-examination of the impact of systematic authoritarian rule on environmental advocacy movements and politics in general. 261 00:51:53.000 --> 00:52:10.000 Why is it important? What's at stake? Theoretically for academics, this is always the core is in a sense the relationship between nature and and human affairs and and IE. 262 00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:17.000 Politics. More specifically, we do seize it. In general But I do think this conference really stands out. 263 00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:38.000 I've been to more than 5 panels focusing on authoritarianism and comparative authoritarian studies but we do see that there's relatively speaking we know a little bit more about DEMocracy and environmental protection but less about authoritarian rule. 264 00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:52.000 And and particularly really systematic authoritarian rule in in in a form of farther adherent states and and really the emergence of environmental. 265 00:52:52.000 --> 00:53:05.000 Resistance movements mobilisation in those states. To feel these knowledge gap. But in addition, I will talk about the. 266 00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:19.000 Is the more recent debate and has been mentioned by Paul as well I was happy to hear that This particular thesis set to authoritarian environmentalism. 267 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:32.000 Even sort of let everybody sort of a little bit uncomfortable, but as if there is a potential at least in the short term we might see that or serotonin states might do better. 268 00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:39.000 In the field of environment. Somehow this thing has been lingering around for a while and waiting to be further tested. 269 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:55.000 And contested maybe but somehow is there. And I've been conversation with Robin Exley who has written the Green State seminar work and I've sort of really tried to corner her and sissy. 270 00:53:55.000 --> 00:54:06.000 Do you still think? The liberal democracy prickles it and she's very firm obviously yes in the context of climate catastrophe, steel. 271 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:19.000 So there is this continuous argument that liberal democracy. In what the political issue is pretty rigorous. 272 00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:35.000 We have to deal with it before we could really reach sustainability. Sort of, in the, you know, bring back the real political context, the I would actually argue that Bisson didn't advocate for it. 273 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:46.000 He actually warned. The demonstration effect of China and Singapore sort of the potentially spread of environmental. 274 00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:49.000 Or top down non-participatory. An administrative measurements to deal with environmentalism and he warned against it. 275 00:54:49.000 --> 00:55:04.000 I don't think he particularly supported society or advocated for this. He pointed out a pattern and warns potential implications. 276 00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:21.000 So the rise of Australian environmentalism David also pointed out to me that also in at the global level the overall presence of a liberal state in international negotiations. 277 00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:33.000 That's also a very important element of what's at stake. And of course the, stagnation fragmentation of environmental politics and governance. 278 00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:58.000 To sort of low level of efficiency in terms of environmental governments in last-. Democracies. That's all at stake that you can see that if we you know in in within the academic we can keep debating the philosophical implications but in real Paul politics. 279 00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:12.000 The evidence is also really kind of calling for some sort of scholarly debate as well. Approach. We do want to bring back to your authoritarian state. 280 00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:27.000 We want to do good quality comparative work. We want to bring you know explain the logic of a authoritarian rule and do rich comparative study and re-examine. 281 00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:37.000 And to clarify some conceptual frameworks and particularly I think we want to clarify 282 00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:52.000 The space in between. Non-participatory measurements in democracies and classic straightforward system-ized Orchard hearing measurements. 283 00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:05.000 And and also to participatory measurements in autocracy in Osbert hearing state. And how that is still different from participatory. 284 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:13.000 Measurements in democracy. That's these are caught it's it's 285 00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:37.000 I've read, have reviewed multiple books, tried to argue that our shared hearing measurements are very common in democracy or I mean since Monday I've listened to really lots of good research and and the term called authoritarian innovation bringing really rich examples of the systematic. 286 00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:45.000 Repression against environment defenders, activism actually in long-standing democracies. But Nevertheless, I think. 287 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:57.000 There is more theoretical work to do really to clarify. The difference between The deterioration of democratic institutions. 288 00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:14.000 And the systematic osteoterium institutions. There are qualitative differences. We do, I do find theoretically speaking we're in awkward positions because on the one hand we'd want to challenge contesti. 289 00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:19.000 The dichotomous thinking of, you know, democracy, misery, authoritarianism as if. 290 00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:36.000 If we have 2 categories, we can answer question. We do want to contest that. And and we want to bring in the spectrum, we want to bring in this gradual view, but on the other hand I am becoming a little bit hesitant to really jump into and not and I think we do still want to have markers. 291 00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:59.000 Quote and to bring out qualitative arguments about the differences. There are still qualitative difference between none or illiberal practices under democracy and more coherent, systematic. 292 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:04.000 Oritarian practices. 293 00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:16.000 This is something I want. Later on maybe. So, And I think towards the end I will return to some of the I start hearing. 294 00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:24.000 For example, the presentation I environmental justice tried to really, you know, synthesize very, idea of very diverse. 295 00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:34.000 Farmamental notions of justice bring you really try to do that and also The previous presentation talking about, are we really post to security? 296 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:58.000 This paradigm is it really very linear or actually there can be circular and we're coming going back and also the issue of the invasion in Ukraine and the security concerns over Taiwan Straits, really the possibility of large scale war pushes potentially could push really global government. 297 00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:07.000 Backwards to before, 1,992, the real conference. I think we are in a very critical moment of history. 298 01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:14.000 So we'll come back to that and the case studies of China and Russia also really brings me to. 299 01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:35.000 All of these points I mentioned that the linear thinking that you know, OK, if you have a bit of economic liberalization, you can have more civil society movements and you have political liberalization then you can push you know all your coherent states out of the traditional view but then become. 300 01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:53.000 Very optimistic. You know, astro Moles sort of ecological modern, It's really hard to really see these cases in that way because we see a lot of going backwards, you know, one step forward but 2 steps backwards or circular or or nonlinear. 301 01:00:53.000 --> 01:01:07.000 Developments. China had a good sort of era the before 2,012 there was arguably speaking there's a relatively boom of civil society under our adherence rule. 302 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:26.000 There's a lot of you know social innovations but unfortunately since 2,012 all of these have faced systematic repression and The green civil society is still surviving but not thriving. 303 01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:45.000 There's local grassroots level, capacity building reaching out, continue to have transnational civic linkages, large skills in innovation policy sort of innovation demonstrate you know all these scaling up of local practices. 304 01:01:45.000 --> 01:02:11.000 Has gone into a real stop. And we, we really cannot talk about. Regime challenges anymore. I think at some point there's a moment on to it's not you know Quick regime shift but at least there's a momentum in early 2 thousands that potential of ecological modernization yeah but I don't think this is 305 01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:23.000 all very real anymore. Russia, the consensus of those experts from the Russian field, I think. Is pretty clear. 306 01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:34.000 99 years the first the first 2 terms of under Putin. Russia was generally categorized as the hybrid regime, but I don't think so anymore. 307 01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:39.000 I don't think scholars still debating, I think, right now. I think Dresher has moved into. 308 01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:50.000 I'll sort it here in as a typical absurd hearing state. This goes back to you know the earlier on the theoretical reflections that to 0 are steel qualitative. 309 01:02:50.000 --> 01:03:01.000 Lines. That in between hybrid, and there is something. Still very hardcore was heritarian state. 310 01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:26.000 There was Niche, there was a short period of we know of opportunity for civil society for NGOs for movements to to come out, to come together and also don't forget the very late few years of the Soviet Union, anti-nuclear was a major sort of movement and linked a lot of spots of environmentalism 311 01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:32.000 together. So that all come together in 1,990, s early 2,000, a lot of external support. 312 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:58.000 But systematically starting from 20. 2,006 and then 2,012 and 2,015 a series of laws and high so called a foreign agent and as we speak recently there is a force new law expanding the list of banned individuals band organizations from external to prevent external inferences. 313 01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:05.000 So the space is shrinking dramatically even before the invasion of Ukraine and continue to shrink. 314 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:16.000 So now we're talking about environmental activism in exile. Very limited space, very, very limited space. 315 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:23.000 So this is again sort of the trans was very reversed when we started a comparison of China, Russia, 99 is China. 316 01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:34.000 Russia was way ahead in terms of these. Political liberalization space of civil society but I think the situation quickly now I think. 317 01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:39.000 Has reversed. We have more cases for the for the big multi-year research project. We benefit a lot from other colleagues. 318 01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:50.000 We had a conference last year. Who presented on cases of Kazakhstan, Vietnam, Morocco and Jordan are different types of Versert hearing regimes. 319 01:04:50.000 --> 01:05:01.000 Some are post-communist, some are quasi semi posts are not really post communists but you know, changed a bit and somewhere. 320 01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:31.000 You know, monarchy and summer. Having just come out of different types of conflict. But in a sense gives us much more diversity to compare and Again and again, the pattern is that is just not very you know, sort of robotic step by step and there's a lot of mixture and I am going to, I got to the 321 01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:44.000 signal. We present these empirical evidence we provokes these questions and We wait for your responses and more questions. 322 01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:52.000 Yes. If you have any controlling remark, please. 323 01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:56.000 Let me see if there is. 324 01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:03.000 Authoritarian states are complex systems. The different, there's a coherent logic underlining logic. 325 01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:21.000 Therefore, it's not just a sporadic repressions. There is a consistent logic and and manifested in institutions laws and even behaviors political cultural and everyday practices. 326 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:31.000 Repression and political restrictions are very much repeated and That's Michael level as well as Michael but the micro level repression is even more the case and more significant to be investigated. 327 01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:46.000 Despite of that The emergence of civil society can be observed in the kind of emergence. Of such social autonomy is very diverse, very diverse. 328 01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:59.000 It face very different type of challenges and and I think climate. Discourses, this global narratives and offers boost. 329 01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:15.000 New opportunities for repression as well as social organizations. So I leave it here and I invite all kinds of Questions? 330 01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:19.000 Yeah. 331 01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:31.000 French all 5 papers were very much thought-provoking I believe that there may be several queries in your mind. 332 01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:44.000 2 are physically present here. You may ask them You may. Their observations for them. But 2 are online. 333 01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:57.000 They are also present. So if you have any kind of interaction with those who are physically present. You may interact with them. 334 01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:08.000 And those who are present online, you may also interact with them. Choice is yours. To whom do you like to ask the questions? 335 01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:18.000 First, preference will be given for the question answer session. Then after you may give your observations also your suggestion source, your comments also. 336 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:28.000 So welcome please open for the All. 337 01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:35.000 Yes, please. 338 01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:41.000 Hi. Yeah, thank you very much to everyone who presented it. It was a really interesting session. 339 01:08:41.000 --> 01:08:51.000 My question is to you, Doctor Who. I was really happy to see that you recognized that there was a shift in authoritarianism, she and posed she. 340 01:08:51.000 --> 01:09:03.000 And yeah, that that authoritarianism itself is not not only that it's on a on a scale on a group the different grades of authoritarianism but it's also changing across time. 341 01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:19.000 My question to you is so we always talk about environmental authoritarianism, vis-a-vis civil society and how that oppresses civil society, but what about business? 342 01:09:19.000 --> 01:09:30.000 I find that this businesses have been quite successful in circumventing environmental authoritarianism and so in your message, how do you see that playing out? 343 01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:36.000 Yes, possible. Anyone. 344 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:45.000 Yes, thanks all the speakers for the wonderful presentations. My question is for Beck. It's Liam Mclaughlin from the University of Technology Sydney. 345 01:09:45.000 --> 01:10:08.000 I'm excited to read those series of 4 papers back. What are great methods in there? So you talked about the next steps will be looking at how these ideas of environmental justice map against the Australian climate movement And you also said that what's missing and contested is about strategies and hopes for harnessing state institutions and 346 01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:22.000 processes. So I'm interested in any preliminary ideas in the Australian context. Around strategies and hope for for getting changed through state institutions and any risks of that process. 347 01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:32.000 Thanks. 348 01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:51.000 Thanks. James Goodman. He was. Listen to papers were very interesting for me but the point about the collapse of the human and the non-human an extent and the implications of that for environmental governance. 349 01:10:51.000 --> 01:11:04.000 I wonder also there's an application for environmental justice because environmental justice of course has the world environment in there where in fact many of the struggles that are being raged around 350 01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:13.000 Say for instance climate are well beyond convention understood notion of the environment a much more societal struggles. 351 01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:30.000 And therefore, provocation maybe we're talking about post environmental justice in some other concept or some other socioecological concept that conveys what is being discussed by. 352 01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:36.000 And partly in the same vein for the final picket for your paper, I thought I wondered whether you considered the reverse. 353 01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:43.000 Who's in terms of the resource court, the resource curse and the extent to which that creates structural constraints. 354 01:11:43.000 --> 01:11:56.000 From the by virtue of the environments and dependencies of states that then shape environment. You've shaped democratic outcomes. 355 01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:06.000 No, no way around. 356 01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:15.000 If there is any question for you, you can have me or Chesapeake, Mario, and there's a question. 357 01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:22.000 Great, thank you. I'm sorry. I didn't hear it. My name is Malana Kalkani. 358 01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:42.000 I'm from the Prayer University, Berlin, a free university Berlin. Thank you very much for all the Yeah, for all the interesting inputs I was really amazed by here in the same panel about alternative temporalities and authoritarianism and human and more than humans. 359 01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:54.000 Plus environmental justice like I think it was a great mix but I was wondering where do you see hope for environmental justice and environmental governance? 360 01:12:54.000 --> 01:13:10.000 How can we achieve democratic environmental justice within both the temporalities for human beings but also for the non-humans and And the the environmental and natural cycles. 361 01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:32.000 That Yeah. That as we G put very well, it has other temporalities. Do you feel that maybe models such as D growth or a planning, a planification of, a reduction in mission, but in a democratic way. 362 01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:42.000 Is something that it's achievable that does that give you hope or What do you find hope in this scenario? 363 01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Thank you. 364 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:50.000 Molium mask on language. 365 01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:54.000 Then. 366 01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:58.000 Or different Council because I also have to run through airports. I'm going to answer first. 367 01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:17.000 Thank you very much for the questions I'm going to go with. The first one is. I'm going to answer first. Thank you very much for the questions I'm going to go with. 368 01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:18.000 Okay. 369 01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:32.000 The first one is, and different authoritarian states have different capacity to absorb. Businesses sector. The China model is very actually rare as that where the state actually creates and it's a very effective. 370 01:14:32.000 --> 01:14:43.000 Of state owned business sector which does not always happen not all Australian states are capable of doing that. A lot of times actually there's a fierce competition. 371 01:14:43.000 --> 01:15:04.000 The Russian case in a way Putin had to really you know clean and and antagonist. Quite quite a lot of entire regime activists have this business background but So it's a good hypothesis and We will address variety and and the variance across it. 372 01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:29.000 And the Chinese space is shrinking big time and if you follow the updates that the state is increasingly pushing and reorganizing and and ultimately absorbing every inch of the private business sector into the state and going back all the way pre, 1,978 and same as the resource rivers or resource curves question it's 373 01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:41.000 really also very relevant and we have wonderful set of authoritarian states which are some of them are resource rich some are poor the same as democratic countries. 374 01:15:41.000 --> 01:15:46.000 So in a way, my expectation is they're relevant but the patterns can might not also be that clear. 375 01:15:46.000 --> 01:16:00.000 Democracies who are very, that are very, very resource rich such as Austria and a US have no incentives to really shift gears or when they shift. 376 01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:06.000 Do they tend to do a better job and more just you know all that it's It's really now happening. 377 01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:25.000 Just don't happen. Oh, so it here in states, you know, some have no incentive to really shift but even those states are But, you know, some are very pushed, very, very, such as Eastern Asian countries, very much. 378 01:16:25.000 --> 01:16:34.000 And in terms of energy shift, the preliminary evidence is that TORRISIONS can shift to very fast such as Morocco. 379 01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:45.000 That's sort of the real, very enlightening kind of case compared to all the Northern African countries in or the broader Middle East to North Africa. 380 01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:57.000 Somehow do or coherent states can shift gear in terms of energy transition. But again, we want to to tell more, you know, and we want to measure also the social human cost behind that as well. 381 01:16:57.000 --> 01:17:08.000 So thank you for the questions. 382 01:17:08.000 --> 01:17:29.000 I have 3 points to make and we'll see if they amount to an answer. So Liam thinking about hope and risks and strategy and testing basically the relevance and usability of environmental justice to use the words of David Splitin. 383 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:48.000 Jill Harrison recently. If we're going to keep developing environmental justice theory, it has to be usable and it has to help us think through what Split and Harrison call the tensions that activists are dealing with and I think that that very much resonates with James's work in this area. 384 01:17:48.000 --> 01:17:59.000 10 years ago even. It's a pretty obvious thing to say. All environment movements can't avoid dealing with the state even if it's reluctantly. 385 01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:20.000 Okay, so this is not me sort of There's just a question here about how to how to deal with that the fact that these movements have to negotiate on the terrain of the contradictory ad hoc response of the state to movements and their attempt to build a kind of alternative pointer hegemony. 386 01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:36.000 And we can see in the way that the state for instance is responding to climate and energy campaigning particularly in the last 20 or so years where we've seen an attempt at a popular radical climate justice movement. 387 01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:49.000 That in. The illogic of the ad hoc responses to the state you see sort of light environmental justice ideas visible and new forms of environmental injustice. 388 01:18:49.000 --> 01:18:55.000 Our carbon market creates the strategic dilemmas. And the spatial displacements that our respondents were talking about. 389 01:18:55.000 --> 01:19:14.000 The core questions about international climate justice relate to our fossil fuel export industry and we've had very ad hoc minimal temporary moratorium and forms of re-regulation that are responding to the procedural justice claims. 390 01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:28.000 Of movements that are as Vanessa pointed out the other day they've they've finished using climate as the core concept they're using water land forms of social protection. 391 01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:35.000 It's basically a defensive strategy. I would say that the movements on the back foot pretty much where it counts. 392 01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:53.000 There's other things I could say. I mean, particularly with the renewable energy zones and the big sort of green industrial policy light endeavors at the state levels to put public finance into the extension of privatized electricity and throw money at regional institutions and make promises to First Nations people. 393 01:19:53.000 --> 01:20:12.000 I think that we can see a state that has to hear some level of justice claims. But we also see a movement and I think that you're right, James. 394 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:19.000 That hasn't found environmental justice very usable. In working through the tensions of praxis. 395 01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:35.000 And certainly in terms of the reckoning with our ongoing colonial situation and the other state question with regard to the voice I do think we need, I don't know if it's post environmental justice. 396 01:20:35.000 --> 01:20:46.000 But there is a kind of question for us in environmental sociology. What is the paradigm that will help us get a grip on these issues and do social theory. 397 01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:52.000 In proper solidarity with those movements and help. Think through the dilemmas of engaging the state. 398 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:59.000 I'm not quite sure what that looks like conceptually. I think we're putting environmental justice as a concept to the test and the movement. 399 01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:16.000 Activists are really showing us that they're stretching it as thin as it can go. So if you've if you want to write the paper for what we do next I'm going to read it for sure. 400 01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:31.000 Thank you so much. There is anything about in these 2 goes to work unlike the representative Please come over here and You need an electric gas. 401 01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:40.000 May I. And the rest of the questions. 402 01:21:40.000 --> 01:21:47.000 There was a question for the region. Please come on with I think he's asking if he can. 403 01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:48.000 Luigi, go ahead. I think 404 01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:55.000 Yeah, so it's too difficult to get. So very, very quickly. Thank you very much for for questions. 405 01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:07.000 I start from the last also about hope. I think there is always hope, because, in a Fukudian manner, resistance always overhangs power. 406 01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:23.000 So there is always a room for a resistance position provided that we detect exactly the nature of power. That we are facing. 407 01:22:23.000 --> 01:22:24.000 Thank you. 408 01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:37.000 So in that sense, a try to clarify the new governmentality. Very important. And, an element of this that I call poster security and for sure I agree that it may have a bigger implications about environmental justice. 409 01:22:37.000 --> 01:22:50.000 Is this blurring of agency and blurring over failure and success. And an example is, the, debate. 410 01:22:51.000 --> 01:22:56.000 So, if you remember there was a discussion with, about the origin of source code. 411 01:22:56.000 --> 01:23:07.000 But the main problem is not to come to an agreement about the way that it's escaped from a, or it was a nature or so-called evolution. 412 01:23:07.000 --> 01:23:21.000 But that is from my governmental perspective. But that from my governmental perspective, it is entirely, indifferent to the origin, but that from my governmental perspective, it is entirely, indifferent to the origin because of it is entirely, indifferent to the origin because of the kind of rebooter that can come from elaborators 413 01:23:21.000 --> 01:23:27.000 of and gain of function, research is that since It happened. It means that it was in the range of possibilities. 414 01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:40.000 So it's totally different whether it is a result of human action or nature own evolution as it was in the range of possibilities. 415 01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:50.000 So this blurring of agency makes a great problem about a responsibility allocation and this is a big issue for any kind of a position. 416 01:23:50.000 --> 01:24:06.000 So it's a very important to detect this big characteristic and the one the other one is the regime of promise So the idea that we are about escaping for a wonderful future or just a resisting catastrophe. 417 01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:17.000 This opens up a room for action. Think again the COVID-19 policies that it was not possible beforehand. 418 01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:24.000 So the new temporary structure gives a room of action from a powerful beforehand. So the new temporary structure gives a room of action. 419 01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:30.000 So the new temporary structure gives a room of action from powerful agents that was not here years ago in a room of action from a powerful agents that was not here, a powerful agents that was not here years ago in a linear temporality. 420 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:36.000 So we have to detect exactly the nature of governmentality to hopefully address it in in a crappy way. 421 01:24:36.000 --> 01:24:40.000 Thank you. 422 01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:41.000 Yeah, may I follow on? 423 01:24:41.000 --> 01:24:44.000 Thanks. Yes, yes please, yes please. 424 01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:49.000 Yeah, thank you very much for the question and thanks you very much for having me in this panel. It was a great panel. 425 01:24:49.000 --> 01:25:05.000 I learned a lot and I'm very much looking for the publication of of I think Rebecca Fungxa and Whiti Yo Harry you already have a lot of, very solid, data and, strong surgical framework. 426 01:25:05.000 --> 01:25:28.000 I hope you will turn that into John Archie very soon. So I hope we can, keep in touch and because I think we are although our matters of concerns are very different from one country to another, I think we are very much on the same page regarding our concern for the resurgence of authoritarianism 427 01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:51.000 and how it impacts environmental I. Including a moment of justice. A few years ago, I was in in Sydney for a conference, organized by David Chlas Bergen and other colleagues at University of Sydney on armamental justice and the focus was on climate justice. 428 01:25:51.000 --> 01:26:08.000 And There was a truly, and I see that today in, Rebecca's paper that the very ambitious global look at such amazing work. 429 01:26:08.000 --> 01:26:24.000 For me it's the ambitious of your academic work is is is a sign of hope. I take this as as an encouragement to trying to combine I mean 430 01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:42.000 I think we are divided, you know, when we talk about, when we are trying to address both environmental issues, climate justice, and at the same time the resurgence of authoritarian regimes or maybe Not the resurgence. 431 01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:50.000 Maybe those regimes have always been there and which is that for some countries it's a resurgence but for other countries it's just a continuity. 432 01:26:50.000 --> 01:27:16.000 So that's the questions we address in that book. We published, 2 years ago with my colleagues on our metals politics in the Asian andropolitan. 433 01:27:16.000 --> 01:27:17.000 Oh 434 01:27:17.000 --> 01:27:18.000 We look at different political regimes. And we we used the you know there we have different standards to evaluate the level of democracy of rights in different regime. 435 01:27:18.000 --> 01:27:28.000 So I also share functions. Reservation regarding you know the definition of what is a hybrid regime versus authoritarian regime. 436 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:47.000 You know, when I look at the situation in Taiwan, I think we are truly a very, Taiwan is really a vibrant democracy but threatened by a huge authoritarian empire which is China, in a situation which is pretty much similar to, to Ukraine. 437 01:27:47.000 --> 01:28:01.000 Well, so far so good. We are, we are not, we are not facing a military invasion but we I mean the pressure is growing right so we feel very much in solidarity with what's going on in Ukraine. 438 01:28:01.000 --> 01:28:17.000 Now I'm from France so when I'm now I'm back in Europe and when I'm now I'm back in Europe and when I see the situation in Europe and when I see the situation in Europe I see the this Huge pressure of right wing populist populism and and and all this racism 439 01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:38.000 around and this and a very violent state repression against a very a very nonsense ecological movements like in France it's it's the violence of the police against environmental activists is amazing. 440 01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:46.000 I mean they are not killed like in Cambodia or Philippines. It's not that level of violence. 441 01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:54.000 But I mean, some activists have lost their eyes and and and very brutally beaten. So. 442 01:28:54.000 --> 01:29:00.000 When I see that, I think France is already an hybrid regime. I mean, to some extent. 443 01:29:00.000 --> 01:29:22.000 So. It's really hard to keep hope. But I think, I'm still, I still believe in, the Gramsi's word, your compatriot and pessimism of the reason but optimism of the hurt and I think for me having this opportunity to share views and 444 01:29:22.000 --> 01:29:30.000 ongoing work with with colleagues is is is fueling my hope. So I would like to thank you all very much for this. 445 01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:31.000 Thank you very much. 446 01:29:31.000 --> 01:29:41.000 Thank you, thank you so much. So. On behalf of FC. I thanks one and all. 447 01:29:41.000 --> 01:29:46.000 I thank you all the 5 presenters. 448 01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:56.000 Paul Jobin from Ivan, Di,ong from Italy. And 2 presenters from the same country. 449 01:29:56.000 --> 01:30:14.000 One send his that prerecorded presentation. So my thanks to all of them and My thanks halted thanks to all those those who are present here. 450 01:30:14.000 --> 01:30:22.000 Because of you. This session. Could be organised successfully. We show all the best. 451 01:30:22.000 --> 01:30:26.000 Thank you so much.