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I guess we might get started. Okay, Hi, everyone.

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my name is Sophie Hickie? I guess I'm the In person code chef and Ola Marie is online. co-chairing as well. For some reason the tech screen is not showing the acknowledgment of country, but I'd like to start by acknowledging

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that we're on the lands in person of the war, Andrew, people of the coolant nation. here a nam, and pay respects to elders, past and present. I acknowledged that sovereignty here was not seeded.

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I'd like to extend that as well and pay respects to the peoples on your lands that you're calling in from

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and Paris fixed to their ancestors and elders passed in prison.

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Ola, did you want to

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kick off?

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And yeah, thanks so much to we. And so Hi, everyone. My name is Orla Maid Murray. I am

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): organize this panel and and the panel is like the politics of institutional ethnography, representation, reflexivity, and method. So I'm very excited to welcome our 3 excellent speakers today to you online, and one in person.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): we are gonna take the 3 presentations one after another, and then After all, 3 presenters have spoken, then we're going to do questions. And so if you want to write questions down, or just keep them in mind when people are presenting and see if them until the end, and then we can kind of have a discussion amongst the 3 presenters as well.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): and if they want to ask each other questions or anything like that? and everyone online or in the room. And please

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): get your questions and comments ready.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And so I think.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): first up we have a. And so if you want to go on ahead and and share your slides and then take it away.

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Oh, you're muted.

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Abass Isiaka: Yeah, thank you very much and for

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Abass Isiaka: oh, I'm just going to get my slides on it.

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Abass Isiaka: So

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Abass Isiaka: just let me know if you can see my screen yet.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): Not yet. But it usually takes a minute. So it's coming up mine.

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Abass Isiaka: Okay.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): yeah, we can see your slides in the

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): yeah. That's great.

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Abass Isiaka: Yeah, okay, thank you. Everyone. it's

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Abass Isiaka: I conveyed. I mean, yeah, I was part of the team that could be a conference here at U for P. Year, and we had a conference today.

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Abass Isiaka: So and also present it. So this is my second presentation of the day.

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Abass Isiaka: So yeah, I'm just going to f you through how I've tried to.

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Abass Isiaka: He's a

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Abass Isiaka: the the moments

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Abass Isiaka: in policy management and how

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Abass Isiaka: policy disabilities, inclusion, policy. how can I so organize in people's activities? I think universities in Nigeria

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Abass Isiaka: and

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Abass Isiaka: the I mean some of the things that I I was trying to understand is the usual institution, our cultural

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Abass Isiaka: And what impact do the policies have on them? And do I mean the same through policy? despite policies

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Abass Isiaka: and

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Abass Isiaka: And and again, in the

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Abass Isiaka: perspectives, on

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Abass Isiaka: what? How these decisions or organizations now to to add them up, to become, what's academics make make of them? And there is less than the impact of, say, friends on, on, on issue, on decision or transformation.

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Abass Isiaka: So so I was trying to do this trying to see how the disabilities inclusion policy in our education in Nigeria is organized, and also at the same time see how that impact on the transformation of institution. So, I I met I saw I to be a a a say, an entry role into understanding the walk

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Abass Isiaka: that goes into the inclusion. So that was really my, and I'll be well organized within this work. And what's the do we contribution to transformation? So this is just the piece of my introduction and I

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Abass Isiaka: also I mean walking, ie. I was just trying to move for something that can help me situate my analysis of the moment of policy enactment, and I became it tool for me to see how people are situated in this. In this process of policy enforcement. So Some of the possibilities. I have about one in So I've been working on some of this information for the last 10 years at what the support of staff

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Abass Isiaka: I the teacher of, and I'm in the school, and then researching it. So it became a thing for me. I have. I have this. I have a set biographical post, as Andrew the sales call it. around in the people walking and

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Abass Isiaka: researching with disabilities

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Abass Isiaka: and as friends, as colleagues as well. So I have to take the stack point as an entry into understanding how

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Abass Isiaka: the social organization. So in my study, I have, of course, 2 2 levels of influence. And

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Abass Isiaka: First Level. And the of the so this group is not a we have that many clusters of disabilities. I mean, even this categorization. Wow, which is problematic. But the of all these decisions that work with that, I've been able to use them to kind of classify these on the payment or severity of payment, and all that which I'm going to

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Abass Isiaka: to share more more on that. As we go into this presentation. So my

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Abass Isiaka: interest in this is to illustrate the expiration knowledge, which is something that I don't just meet up alluded to in in in making this epistemologic shift as

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Abass Isiaka: which I I I moved from what the Authoria intention of policy is to try to see what is happening in social, in the actuality. So so that was what I was really interested in. And in this case I looked at how students, you know, think about or plan. So this is the key

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Abass Isiaka: thing I'm going to look at here for for this presentation. So I was. I I I I was on campus, the 3 campuses for 6 months doing talking to people observing activities and also following

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Abass Isiaka: documents that I'm organizing these activities. So the, the the question is that I've mentioned is how universities in Nigeria do disabilities, policies, and these are some of the text and people in this process. So my data analysis. Still very massive. I'm trying to get this work with this

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Abass Isiaka: concept of work. And I how it's been generously defined by the colleagues in the in, ie. To be able to incorporate a lot of things acknowledged and acknowledged, and to to

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Abass Isiaka: describe or explain

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Abass Isiaka: the work that goes into policy management, and in this case have

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Abass Isiaka: this 3 permanent ones coming out on my analysis. we chat

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Abass Isiaka: describe as the the access walk, the additional kindly participation work. So today, I'm just going to focus on 2 of this. So which is the the access walk and the station out work.

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Abass Isiaka: So these are the text that I've looked at and that kind of coordinates in a lot of activities at a local Some some of this text. I see them as extra local. And the way I define my extra also, it takes into consideration the impact of colonial difference which I'm going to talk about much more. And that's why I I am on this part of, because there are some

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Abass Isiaka: that's about to do between. I'm trying to understand the impact of, say, global relations on what is happening in the local. So the the extra looking sense of understanding of renewal helps me to kind of get to see what's impact these say, big text, I that takes up

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Abass Isiaka: have on new or look who who could take some them. So this is it kind of a multi-level analysis that they can into

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Abass Isiaka: understanding this process. So let's have a look at the access work or what I. In fact, this is still a work progress. but So he's coming up from my detail analysis to see

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Abass Isiaka: the work that students with disabilities have to do. And in most cases it's an extra lay of work. But they have to to have access to our education. their experiences. I the textually mediated in terms of okay, what kind of education they. But they can have access to, even at the very early stage. And then what kind of exam? The the right before they can get admission. And the last bit is

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Abass Isiaka: okay, what happens after? Yeah, I've been admitted. So this is typical of what you what you get to see in transition studies. Well, I'm trying to say that this Johnny, is not the media. There is a a lot of in particular where they have to

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Abass Isiaka: some. Okay, for instance, look at the case of a sake from one of those case studies which had started primary education at 89. And that's because she couldn't get access to primary school because she's a visually in bed, and

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Abass Isiaka: they did the 8, 8, 8, and a proper school for to be able to function or or study it was not there, and she was being seen as someone. Okay, that to be

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Abass Isiaka: that was rejected for your time and then, and that really impacted on a tragedy. And even now. she now passes education. I mean, this precarious experience with education from the beginning

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Abass Isiaka: really impacted on interest in okay, what to study. I mean to the decision to go to university. So I I I describe this as per. Let me know, because it it's a it's trouble joining you with the students and from the previous educational background. And this definitely have impact on what kind of say, education they've received. How does I impact the where they have

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Abass Isiaka: that would that will determine what they have access to in the next step. So and they the here, which is really the focus of this access work is the kind of

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Abass Isiaka: the here at this situation, where they are not really students, and the the still, not they finished like finished as high school or secondary education, but they are still there, not being able to progress to university, because probably they've got to go through for rehabilitation so that they can have the skills to

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Abass Isiaka: right exams, or because we, the exam system structured is an exclusionary. So they have to do some extra walking, be able to be able to cope with the how this examination is that it's been conducted. So this is the the the way strength would submit to go through admission policy. Right? This is the expert and the the last beaches.

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Abass Isiaka: After I get an admission in the work they have to do to also to and from what I, from this analysis, say that the the to and I said, and this and this is case for most of the 7. It's because they have to do some.

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Abass Isiaka: we're we're learning getting you from making new friends get in new notes because they have not. There is no conference structure for them to be able to set today. so this is

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Abass Isiaka: yeah access. But most access but most access debates have looked at, I've ever been to say say, explain, or even look at this from the macro level. What's all at the what's the admission offices, do we? What what institutions are doing? So I decided to

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Abass Isiaka: to be able to be say included, or get into the door as the the university management used to. So going, for that is the which is second before this presentation is the.

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Abass Isiaka: And in between this and I walk. And there's there's a participation which I'm more into a bit this discuss today. But the reason why I want to bring this up is how students use text to transform the the the, the university that I mean that media institution.

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Abass Isiaka: And this is just to see how I mean, it's it's just to see how I mean the kind of

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Abass Isiaka: demanded access or demanding participation. And I find this I'm reading from my

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Abass Isiaka: least, that is very useful. to sort of look at a particular text, which is a letter origin by a precedent of an association in this university, demanding for accommodation

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Abass Isiaka: Oh, demanding for you particular thing. I'm going to take you through the the text of and how it's used. What was the response? The walkway, the responses from this station. And what what impact as that did I have on

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Abass Isiaka: the system? So the. The the problem I was trying to understand is how the strip get to materials to study. I most guesses. In in some sense you have to worry about this, or for some to do that tradition of the system. And that's it we trying to look at. we try to look at our Am itself

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Abass Isiaka: conceptualization of the world one gamet. So those that use to the station at kind of

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Abass Isiaka: easily fitted in. But if you are not, if you are in non traditional, and then you will have to do some.

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Abass Isiaka: So this is

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Abass Isiaka: disabling in in some sense. So this is Anthony, and I'm 3 is a is is a precedent of the assessation of visually presidents, and and I mean this conversation became very important, because they have to do with falls to come together and have a single voice so that they can communicate or negotiate a yeah participation within

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Abass Isiaka: the. So the design is that the daily work they have to do that. Some material is not phone. They pay for 2 things extra.

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Abass Isiaka: say material

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Abass Isiaka: material commitment, and also how they have to responsibility for them to do things for them, because the decision is not that they did it, so they have to be the one to organize the support for themselves. So any question is when we have support services within the within our organization.

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Abass Isiaka: So the question we ask is, who is actually doing the support services? So that's what I my state was was able to

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Abass Isiaka: point to and kind of question. So here is the

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Abass Isiaka: the text itself.

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Abass Isiaka: I've tried to get. In fact, some of the beats to be able to to, to, to, to protect. I mean I because I promised an organization. So I have to.

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Abass Isiaka: But what I'm interested in. This is a text. And I'm not. Yeah. I'm going to be a content of it. Most probably I wasn't interested in what we what is text generated? What happened?

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Abass Isiaka: How? How? What's what's what's the issues of relations around this parts of the context? And that's a one beat them. So this is the text which in my this, the President, in in representing on a in this association to the first setup so and after that you want to. you take a look at the

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Abass Isiaka: he through the day. So he, when I asked him a lot of mistakes, and he told me that the first attempt he made was to write directly to the well, because and that's because they wanted the to be at once to have a communication but the

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Abass Isiaka: back I mean he was instructed to write through the Dean of the and So that's if the Dean there will commence that this, that I should go up and it goes up. But it doesn't that that that doesn't get the recommendation, that it's tasted out. So this is not a way of okay, you know. Say, get keeping, or get who gets to to to to.

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Abass Isiaka: So this is a. So what they're demanding is they request for the employment of. And if you look at some of those things

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Abass Isiaka: that they've done, they trying to explain. So the text, Anthony, give me

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Abass Isiaka:  this this

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Abass Isiaka: going to fun with our tools for them, being in the university without resourceful to help them say, combust their materials. Real things is like, if I was a farmer going to the front, and that's the for construction used, and I 500 very, very trusted. Then I started asking myself, Who is actually the farmer here? Is it the institution that you know says.

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Abass Isiaka: Yes, the we are inclusive coming, but could not deliver this, or the students themselves who are coming to the without it necessary to to be able to participate or function as the of as a right member of that

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Abass Isiaka: institution. So what do you expect? So you you always trying to refer to? Okay, if I was going to to the farm they've got, they have no more what lasts to work, and they what do you expect them to work with?

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Abass Isiaka: So this they they they've written. So he then had to. He had to articulate

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Abass Isiaka: everything they've done to that moment in making sure that they get

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Abass Isiaka: at this resource room. So they what they've written to people to make sure that you have this resource room, and then what they need from this is to employ someone to manage to resource room. So then, so this is, and that level of work that they have to do to say kind of I mean, students do. It's a public institution. I have a

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Abass Isiaka: say, setting up a resource room, and then in having to be for someone to to manage their.

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Abass Isiaka: That's a then what's what happened after the text. And and this is what I mean. The the fact that he they could even imagine that they want to employ the service of the resource policy. speaks. One of how much this particular need is is is is a crucial for them to participate

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Abass Isiaka: in this station. So and then

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Abass Isiaka: so the the the station is saying, Yeah, there is a a pure project process of embargo, and we have to keep this this way so that we can Say, keep up with that project and all that. And this is the same without this particular resource. We're just here for nothing.

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Abass Isiaka: and they give, I mean, this negotiation. It's just a what I was trying to let me know, and how that has been affecting, and then what things are now we changing.

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Abass Isiaka: and you know the the danger of the same story. Things still you have to be. You have to make sure your resources are there. So I mean, Nigeria has a national exact mandate in public, and to to to make permissions for the students. But yes,

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Abass Isiaka: Then what happens in practice is what I'm trying to get here. So then, what I I I of the day because I was situated that there is a center for supportive services, who came out working with the students. So this is the the unit of the organization. I I researched

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Abass Isiaka: all right. That was research it from trying to. Then that's every regulations around that center? so they then decided to employ casual stuff. And that's a

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Abass Isiaka: this. Also

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Abass Isiaka: how it can see that this particular walk and the support work so, and which was based on. So I I think that the strengths are also oh, say, this is the fact that

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Abass Isiaka: there is a an existing logic at the center, because the center was the have initially designed for students with here impairment, and then because of the the intake of

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Abass Isiaka: we it.

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Abass Isiaka: which then

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Abass Isiaka: brought about the need for the center to be maybe in 2 min at the same time be able to support a every students that that comes to seek service from that center. So they were they. They also going through some sort of transformation. And that's at our unit

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Abass Isiaka: and then trying to be inclusive. So they have. Yeah, yeah.

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Abass Isiaka: their mandate to be about supporting and payment, then trying to extend their service to student via and payment to other categories as they come very by thought difficult because they don't have the resources to to do so. So this is

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Abass Isiaka: What I actually happened after that he states that as we in and that's what I'm Anthony to me, even though with the with the fact that. And there's a possibility of getting cultural staff to manage this resource room.

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Abass Isiaka: Students, students still, don't feel like that's the you need as a mess. Because what then happened was that the the logic of the staff, or say

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Abass Isiaka: the the institution became prominent again without necessarily we cannot.

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Abass Isiaka: so so.

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Abass Isiaka: I think if you look at the last bit of a sleds. We are, Anthony, saying that it's very important to you for you that the job of resource process is not for just anyone considering the popularity of our employment, so the applicant was no out of real persons, with maybe, even with your impairment, must have the knowledge of on how to effectively use it. So what you're trying to say is

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Abass Isiaka: based on our conversation, and how much of negotiation they've had to do with the station is to say, yes, we need you to get us what we need. who? Who can actually do this job? No, we think should do digital so we are the one receiving the needs receiving support. And we know best out to what you going to need to to get for us. So this is the kind of a

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Abass Isiaka: conflict between the logics that there was an operating at the center. And then

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Abass Isiaka: so this is just to discuss some of this this issues I've talked about. And as we, as we see from the session us in from the institutions, perspective

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Abass Isiaka: in, in, in in addition to students study like being a student of some of those, then they have this and activist walk or past transformation work. They have to do as well

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Abass Isiaka: on top of that. So then, the question is, who is doing the inclusion? students themselves screen? They are on inclusion. So, and that's a support from that

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Abass Isiaka: people who are being in with it, I don't actually do it. So there's this shift, you responsibility. As soon as you are in the door, and you id it possibly there, for that I was. Then you have to walk.

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Abass Isiaka: they work, you have to walk the so, and again

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Abass Isiaka: this is from Smith, trying to see the the the separation between the ward like you up to the experience, and it do not feel that which you must adapt to. And also, I think, you'll get up with us trying to look at it. I couldn't between the life and and the system. So this is just the the situation most today will start. It's easier. So

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Abass Isiaka: and if you, if you look at the letter as well, the way, Anthony, you kind of talk about your counterparts like students with without disabilities, and how they have to think from that frame is also a way that if we condition by institution of of of exclusion in in in this decision.

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Abass Isiaka: so and the governing mode, so this application of consciousness that's a sweet was talking about is in different ways. So these students then come, okay, you have to compare, yeah, what are the students that are doing what they get in. So this this person that continues, and this is the the general situation of

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Abass Isiaka: people

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Abass Isiaka: in the spaces that are not that we say

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Abass Isiaka: so.

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Abass Isiaka: No normalized sort of, and they have to keep adjusting. Keep re 19. So

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Abass Isiaka: so to go back to the access walk. I am of the PE of before the study is that the transition or joining of it's because of the pretty minality and the analysis, and also the fact that they don't get set to it. and they have to keep.

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Abass Isiaka: We we connect in the relationship because the the more

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Abass Isiaka: say friendly, or relation on what they are in terms of, how out they present themselves to people within the station, and the more participate, the more participation they they get a job. So if you are so, is not a really say Tati, or you don't know to relate people that you have to struggle with

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Abass Isiaka: in this situation because you you can't

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Abass Isiaka: say you have problems. And that's how the decision to see if that students with disabilities you can get to help them. I have problems in forming relationship.

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Abass Isiaka: So then, this is one of our responsibilities going on in terms of how our people, our students get integrated visual policies and processes have a partnership of those we tend to to wear it such that it is easier to we if you have a ship. So that's the So

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Abass Isiaka: the world one gamet the the the way these stations structured. And if you yeah, if you had a feed, then you really don't have to do too much work, but if you have your free, then you've got a feature in work to do, and this is what you still it's a in getting access. So I'm going to stop here. I don't know how.

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Abass Isiaka: Wow.

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Abass Isiaka: thank you so much.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And thanks for that of us. so if everybody just keeps any questions or comments in their head, or write them down, and then we're going to move on to presentation next, if you'd like to share your slides.

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Nanke Verloo: Can everybody hear me?

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Nanke Verloo: Yeah. Okay. Great

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Nanke Verloo: thank you for organizing this panel. This is really nice to actually talk with people in a slightly different discipline, as you will see from my presentation. I will. I'm not really an institutional at no fee, but I'm gonna have no prefer by training.

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Nanke Verloo: did a Ph. D. In political science. And now I'm working as an assistant professor in planning. and I'm studying planning processes with an ethnographic methodology.

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Nanke Verloo: so I'm doing ethnography in these conflicts around urban planning. And I thought that it would be interesting to propose to you. yeah, and actually a struggle that I'm dealing with.

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Nanke Verloo: and also maybe a start of a solution. But I'm not so sure yet. So I would love to receive comments on that.

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So I'm gonna start with the piece of my diary.

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Nanke Verloo: and

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Nanke Verloo: I've written that that piece on the day that I received a call from the assistant of the Elderman of Amsterdam on Democratization

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Nanke Verloo: with whom I was working together. because he asked me to look into a process of citizen participation that he didn't know why it turned into a conflict, because the municipality basically tried to do everything they could to make this a very good process of citizen participation

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Nanke Verloo: around the development of a housing block in an empty space in the west side of Amsterdam.

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Nanke Verloo: and the assistance that called me was very nervous, because that day I was supposed to publish my report on this. It's some participation process. It was a report that evaluated the process, but also that well, gave some some political tools

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Nanke Verloo: to do these processes better in the future. And I based that report on 9 months of ethnographic field work being part of the process, talking with public policymakers, but also with citizens and with everybody who was involved in the process, and I was present in in these sessions.

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Nanke Verloo: and he asked me, basically, please don't publish your report. because the next week The Council of Amsterdam was supposed to discuss this planning project, and in that discussion they were going to decide whether it was going to take place or not. And we're talking here about

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Nanke Verloo: millions of euros invested in the in a part of Amsterdam where around 1,500 housing. yeah. Houses would be built in apartment blocks, of course, and a process that the municipality already started, and 9 years before the the the decision was going to be made.

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Nanke Verloo: So there was quite some interest, both in terms of money, political interest, but also interest in housing because of them is in a housing crisis, and they really need to build a a lot of housing in a in a short amount of time, but at the same time they have a high political interest in doing that participatory and have citizens, you know. Yeah, influence developments that are happening in their own neighborhoods.

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Nanke Verloo: So this this alderman asked me, please don't publish your report until I have written a response and please include my response in your report.

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Nanke Verloo: So there I had to make a decision. Was I going to publish my report

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Nanke Verloo: and then see what happens, or was I going to give in to that question of the elder man and wait? Give him some time?

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Nanke Verloo: I knew that waiting would not be very good for the citizens.

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Nanke Verloo: because, of course, the citizens, they don't want the elder man to make this step forward, to be to be ahead of the rest of the Council, because they wanted to also speak in that same council meeting to vote against the process, because the citizens were very unhappy with the way this this participatory process unfolded.

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Nanke Verloo: so choosing to wait, was in a way choosing for the elder man.

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Nanke Verloo: but not choosing to wait was also a choice for

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Nanke Verloo: you making this whole project. Maybe. yeah, be stopped. So I I had to really think politically about what I was going to do.

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And that's what this that dilemma exactly. That's a graphic dilemma that made me.

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Nanke Verloo: that is, I think, very special for it, because we are so closely related to all the different actors in the field, is exactly what I want to talk about in this presentation today.

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Nanke Verloo: So just to short Intro. This project is taking place in the in the context of a larger project, where I compare participatory processes in different cities, in Amsterdam, and also in the city, in the global South where I'm sitting now.

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Nanke Verloo: we are many different and very interesting approaches of of participatory planning processes are happening. And I'm I'm having this project where I think the global North can learn a lot from how people are doing this in the global South.

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Nanke Verloo:  but well, that's the the context of this project.

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Nanke Verloo: And

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Nanke Verloo: what I'm doing in the project is what I call ethnographic action research.

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Nanke Verloo: So that basically combines ethnography with action, research. And there is a special element to that, because action, research, as you may know, has this element of really not only engaging in the field, but also somehow having an impact on the field and working together with the people in the field.

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Nanke Verloo: So participatory processes of collaboration with policy and case actors to produce scientifically and socially relevant knowledge and for transformative action. So the question of this

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Nanke Verloo: politician was not so strange in this context of action research, because I was working together with him. I was already training some of his civil servants to be better at participatory processes. I was also having reflection sessions already with citizens as well as a civil servants.

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Nanke Verloo: Where I was, we take a more of a mediative person position where I would bring these people together and think, Okay, how could you work together in the future? So it was not so weird that this politician was asking me to do this because we were really working together in this logical action research. But now that question removed pushed me to

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Nanke Verloo: sort of force. My own political opinion on the project on the project, and could have an effect on the rest of the project. So that's why, to me this was more political.

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Nanke Verloo: then the already very political status of that number. For in doing ethnographic action research.

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Nanke Verloo: So this action research has 3 underlying concepts, basically that knowledge that we produce not only good for academia. But also it's actionable knowledge.

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Nanke Verloo: that recognizes and strengthens relationships, and that is critically and constructive about political systems or hegemonic systems.

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Nanke Verloo: then, my my approach to combining ethnography with action. Research is by taking at the graphic method, so doing participants, observations, making field notes, doing reflections, keeping a diary, but always in in a, in a dialogue with people with people in the fields. I foster dialogue between people in the field, and I try to balance

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Nanke Verloo: power imbalances by bringing out the voices of everybody in a well equally relevant way in the way that they influence my findings and my research.

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Nanke Verloo: Now, as I said before, the position of action researchers is always political

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Nanke Verloo: because well, you are, especially when you're studying conflict. you're working as an action researcher with different people in the field who have different interest and who are also trying to pull you into different directions.

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Nanke Verloo: So your own position becomes even more blurry, undefined. And you're yeah. You are working and negotiating between contradicting expectations of your research.

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Nanke Verloo: You know, it's moving very fast.

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Nanke Verloo: So some action research theorists have argued that research in the way that we are expecting it to work right now. that, it lacks the effective capabilities for detecting and coping with these types of power. dynamics.

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Now, of course, ethnographers have historically always had a very unique position to a reflect on their own positionality.

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Nanke Verloo: and many at November first have worked on this.

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Nanke Verloo: and I myself wrote, I edited a book on different approaches to urban research, where we brought together different methodologies

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Nanke Verloo: to study the city. And in that book we have a lot of reflection on ethics on the way, cultural or institutional analysis or cultural analysis and ethnography, and any interviews, but also more. Quantitative methods can work together to all study the city.

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Nanke Verloo: Nevertheless, there is no reflection there on what to do in these political moments of doing actual research.

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Nanke Verloo: Of course, that number first have discussed very often the ethics of the procedures that they're doing, and also the ethics of the field ethics. The moment where you have to decide how to deal with with relationships with people, or how to immerse deeper or less deep into certain moments, etc.

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Nanke Verloo: And many people have written about that types of positionality.

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Nanke Verloo: Here is just a list of examples of very helpful studies and arguments about

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Nanke Verloo: for example, the problem of undesigned relationality.

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Nanke Verloo: where Kirsten Bells argues that all I know the first must grapple with this dual role in their relationship with subjects. So sometimes you're close or sometimes you're further away. Sometimes you're the researcher, sometimes you're the friend

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Nanke Verloo: others have discussed even forms of covert ethnography to gain access or uneven immersion in conflict situations to also protect yourself and others.

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Nanke Verloo: the work of. and discusses

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Nanke Verloo: how to take this this standpoint. that that was also discussed by a bus, I think how to take standpoint perspective from one group, and really try to understand how they shape meaning and how they shape their lives.

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Nanke Verloo: And there is, of course, the discussion on political activists that is, no refers. But none of this

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Nanke Verloo: really helps me, or help me to know what to do in that moment. what to do, and how ethical it would be for me to do either way right.

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Nanke Verloo: and that was not the only politically charged moment in my field work. I listed some other moments here in my field work that I thought, Okay, what I'm doing now will really have some political consequences.

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Nanke Verloo: So, for example, people, of course, always ask you about your personal opinion about the project.

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Nanke Verloo: even in the interviews, or at the end of an interview. also.

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Nanke Verloo: And I'm not saying that you shouldn't give your personal opinion. But in this case

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Nanke Verloo: I really couldn't say whether I thought this planning projects, the the amount of housing in the square meters and exactly the technical parts of this project were either good or bad, I could actually really understand the visions and the the the ideas of different people who were engaged in this. And I

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Nanke Verloo: I I couldn't really defend my own political stands. There. I could develop a political stand on the participatory process, but not on the

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Nanke Verloo: planning, the design of the plans.

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Nanke Verloo: but also, of course, timing information. I received a lot of information from the local government that could have advanced or disadvantaged the the position of the local government or any other way around. Citizens told me in advance when they were going to protest.

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Nanke Verloo: if I would have told that to the, to the mayor, they would have made other decisions. So there were many moments where me, not

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Nanke Verloo: sharing information, was in a way also sort of political stance by not taking a political sense. But it was fine. It was not so damaging because I could just, you know, there be the the observer. I didn't have to share that information

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Nanke Verloo: now, on that moment of publication I had to make a choice. I either wait or I don't wait, and that did, no matter what I did, whether I would wait or not. Wait

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Nanke Verloo: did have a political consequence immediately. So

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Nanke Verloo: some are scholars say an over fee is not simply about collecting information, but it's a product of interaction. So that makes ethnography intrinsically performative. Yes, I agree, indeed.

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Nanke Verloo: But what if that performance is not only in terms of a written academic product, but also has an a material effect on the future of the city.

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Nanke Verloo: So I needed something else some way to reflect on that specific positionality.

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Nanke Verloo: and I found a text on political rigor

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Nanke Verloo: in which it said that political rigor

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Nanke Verloo: uses its departure, point the acknowledgment of the inherent, political and cultural and historically situated nature of knowledge, production, and the observation that all research, science, and forms of knowledge, production, are inherently political enterprises impacted by unequal power relations.

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Nanke Verloo: Okay, I understand. We basically already knew that as September first, right? But what this paper did was give some very interesting reflections on positionality of the research that go beyond Vietnamese. So, for example, discusses different typologies of how you

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Nanke Verloo: how you relate to your fields.

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Nanke Verloo: as a as a ethnographer, and it allows to think through, okay.

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Nanke Verloo: what type of political rigor belongs to these typologies.

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Nanke Verloo: So you could, for example, be go inspire. Maybe that's a little bit more. That standpoint position that you're using.

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Nanke Verloo: in institutional andography.

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Nanke Verloo: but you could also be like a responsible participant trying to be reflexive intervenes, and is facilitative of dialogue, and I but I think I was made my mostly many of them at the same time.

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Nanke Verloo: so I wanted to to to reach like, reuse this concept, or actually, yeah, apply it more to the field of planning conflicts.

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Nanke Verloo: And

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Nanke Verloo: I think I could do we could use this term of political rigor in these moments that are The outcomes of our research have this type of political consequences, and that we in that case have to reflect on a couple of things.

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Nanke Verloo: So first of all.

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Nanke Verloo: not only on academic rigor of the way you are doing your research, but also really on the political agency of the research and the political effects that it your research can have.

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Nanke Verloo: So

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Nanke Verloo: if you

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Nanke Verloo: feel that you, wanna, you have to think about the goal. Why are you doing this type of action research? Do you wanna stand by long group and claim for their needs? Or do you wanna develop dialogue with the field? Is your responsibility and balancing voices? Or is your responsibility in bringing out more, more one voice than another?

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Nanke Verloo: And of course, what are the political effects of of that choices, and is the are those political effects, the ones that you want to? really, create.

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Nanke Verloo: but also reflect on the meaning of the information you are

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Nanke Verloo: you are sharing.

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Nanke Verloo: So not only an ethical reflection on the information, but also a political reflection of, for example, information, advantage in different moments in the field work. And of course, the positionality of time. So

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Nanke Verloo: the order of field work. What does that mean politically? With whom do you talk? First, second, third, and what does that mean for the voices of the people in the field also, when do you publish And when do you don't publish? When do you wait a second? When do you allow for a conversation to start

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Nanke Verloo: all of these things are maybe forms of E reflecting on academic rigor. But what I'm arguing here is that we need for ethnographic action research in urban planning processes, especially if these conflicts are ongoing and they really are about decisions

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Nanke Verloo: that are still to be made. We need also this, this element of political rigor to make another level of of of political reflection.

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Nanke Verloo: and that could include the positionality and power positions of people, political agency of the researcher, the politics of information and information advantages and the politics of timing of our research.

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Nanke Verloo: That's it.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): Amazing. Thank you so much. I have lots to think by So again, if everyone just keeps any questions or comments in their head, And then we'll move on to our final speaker. And Sophie Hickie, who's in the room?

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): I rl

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): for some.

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okay.

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 Hi, everyone. I'm looking forward to the discussion there for some parallels.

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So Today I'm I'm sharing some thoughts that I've been having with Cheryl's Rowski.

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This one is not an empirical piece. So it's really about prompting our thoughts about researcher positioning, and also vis-a-vis standpoint with an ie. So it might not make sense

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to people who are not super familiar with, ie. So I'm just prefacing that there's a very specific purpose.

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and I'd like to thank you all as well for putting together this important session.

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Okay, so I live on Ginavara country up in southeast Queensland

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today. We're down in Nam on laundry country. Cheryl lives in calicum, first nation country in Canada.

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And so I have been working for the last 8 years in

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participatory action research in my, what was my full-time job? Specifically with first nations, peoples, aboriginal community health organizations and hospitals to redesign maternity care. I quit my job for various reasons in January.

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so I'm now an independent scholar.

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Cheryl is also an independent scholar.

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and she came to these conversations through some work that she has been doing about looking at land, access agreements specifically around indigenous peoples, and the right to access the lands which are essentially farms that are on paper owned by non-indigenous people and the consequences there.

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Bit of context setting. we. our countries are different and geographically obviously diverse.

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But we share a very similar colonial history of invasion. and maltreatment of first nations, people. So today, our our thoughts are really based in these particular environments. we're not speaking to any other context. you're welcome to extrapolate from there.

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and we're also talking very much about our thoughts around this as white settler women.

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and so We were originally well. I I specifically was drawn to i. E. because I saw it as an opportunity to put some extra tools in the toolkit in activist research. to really look at how? the colonial rule of relations happening. So in my work. I guess the easiest way to describe it. I was looking at institutional institutional racism within hospitals.

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and and I came to it in Isa in 2,018, and it was at a time where I was in amongst it.

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There were all these tensions on the ground, and it was just like that beacon of light of oh. okay, there's a new way of that different way of looking at this which could be really helpful.

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I was also really mindful at the time, because I was doing participatory action research, that this essentially imported way of seeing may not be appropriate in the context. I was working

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and i. E. In and of itself, while it has a man to. In man's retreat goals.

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you may not necessarily have that change aspect unless you intentionally build it into your project. Design.

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so both Cheryl and I saw, i. E. So institutional ethnography as an opportunity to gain deeper understanding on the historical and ongoing ways in which racism and colonization are continued in our everyday lives, our everyday work and institutions.

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and specifically using it as ways to understand and The work of people to work with people and see if it was truly something that we could use. towards positive, social and political change.

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Okay, And then given that, we're talking about indigenous and non-indigenous relations within a colonial context.

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The question, then, was really well. What what extent can we, as non-indigenous settler women be using, ie. To disrupt or comment on

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colonial ruling relations?

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So we had a a bunch of started as informal chats on Zoom Meetings, but we were kind of seeing some trends about what was feeling right and wrong, what we were seeing and hearing.

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I have a, I guess, a a scholarly

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background oil

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training in kind of critical race, critical whiteness as well as pistry action research. So I was particularly familiar with the literature of

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critical, indigenous scholars, such as Linda to Ia Smith from Outer Rowa And you know, and some first nation scholars in Australia who I'll get into a bit more. But really I was kind of uber-conscious that outside the world of ie. there is a lot of development about, you know the extractivism of research. And

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this idea that even with the best intentions of the research. your research can still have damaging consequences. And there is an There always has been

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a big push, and

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demand from first nations people to be not just included, but to be self-determining within the research that it concerns them. So that phrase about us without us, which is a common catch cry in aboriginal political rallies. It also has been used in disability research.

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Field.

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but yeah. So then, cheryl, in another project, with someone else, had kind of been compiling these ie. Dissertations, and ie. Text to try and make them collated, I guess, in one space

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and going through them, we were kind of finding projects we hadn't necessarily seen before, which was great, and we were kind of seeing this breadth of how i. E. Was being done. And that was also prompting, thinking, how is it done? How is it not done?

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And we were noticing, that non-indigenous institutional ethnographers were not always being explicit or reflexive about their own participation within these colonial relations.

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particularly problematic or troubling, or I thought, was, I was left wanting more? Not everyone, but often or sometimes

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when they adopted an analytical standpoint of indigenous peoples. So

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why is that a question again? That's something I'll come into a little bit later. That's kind of unique about institution iconography. But that's kind of allowed that space to happen.

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some ways that I ease were left us wanting more

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was broadly, if we look at them.

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the breadth of ie. You know, which

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comparatively to maybe some other sociologies and methodologies, is youngish.

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 But there was not too much work that had been looking into the colonial ruling relations. I think it's becoming a lot more common, and certainly in students work.

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but these studies were hard to find.

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like I, said the researcher. Standpoint. sorry the researchers reflexivity fizza v. Their standpoint, their analytical standpoint, and I was often not explicit.

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 it.

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And in conversations

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it was kind of said, well, that's okay, because I e does things differently. So I want to problem. I ties a little bit about that. And here we're talking about the social ontology, and that standpoint in, ie. Means something's different to standpoint theory.

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I is also actually quite complex. It's

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difficult to. You can't just kind of attend a training session for an hour and then get it like you can be drawn to it. but it's it's really quite nuanced. I'm going to be honest. The the texts particularly Dorothy's earlier works are quite dense.

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And then in conferences, there's a and even in in ie. Text, there's a lot of institutional capture. so what I mean by that is, there's a lot of phrases that are used almost as refrains that make it quite hard for new people to come in to actually understand what that means. So the social ontology of blah blah blah, the explicate things. I mean, that's not a verb that we tend to use. But there's like this really important

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amount of information and knowledge and way of seeing and doing, and everything kind of hidden or layered behind these words. so what that means is, people who could, who are interested in ie. and who could really, you know, get some benefit or usefulness from it.

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Tend to go. Oh, that's a bit of a commitment. I don't really have the time. And and for me that's sad. So I have seen I've had an indigenous Phd. Student, and

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we had fabulous conversation. She loved it. She was like, I just don't have the time to read like 10 big books. I'm not paid to do that. I don't have the time. So so that can be exclude

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sting or yeah, not very inclusive in that way. Okay, so in our abstract, we had a bunch of questions don't have much time. I'll focus on these 4.

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particularly. We wanted to go a bit, do a little bit of comparison again, marking that we are white, settle women. So this would be very different. I imagine, or at least the points of focus might be different if we were indigenous.

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But specifically, was there any initial overlap that we saw that would make it useful to look at colonial ruling relations?

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and then again, like I've alluded, can non-indigenous, ie. Is presumed to adopt the i. E. Analytical standpoint of indigenous peoples. How might non-indigenous I use approach positionality and reflex of it so flexivity in their investigations.

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And what mythological strategies or tactics could potentially exist for non-indigenous ideas to evade this institutional capture.

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So again, this is this is not any different of answers. It's more to prompt reflections amongst us.

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and I guess we're we're kind of echoing all Omari and and colleagues in the review for the Pelgrave Handbook about the Court court tensions with an ie. And reflex of positionality was one of it.

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okay. So when looking at some of the things that are compatible.

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within indigenous research. There is an overlap in terms of this political activism and a desire for social change.

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 often, in indigenous research people and and into their bodies matter.

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the social is relational. There's an indigenous concept of relationality. So

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it's really difficult to describe this in a superficial way, because it's quite a big construct, and even my own understanding would be quite superficial.

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In short. everything is connected.

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and we have responsibilities based on our positions within this big web of the world, which is human and non-human

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in indigenous research. And an i. E. Knowledge is co-produced collaborately and dialogically

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and particularly that thing that I alluded to. That's exciting about, i. E. Is the capacity to disrupt colonial ruling relations by reframing the issue as the institution of the problem. So we're not problematizing indigenous people, which is what the majority of historical research has been doing and to

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just to so famously, in 2,014. Auntie Rosalie Kunop. Monks on a TV show made the statement quite clearly and broadly, and it was a bit of a Zeitgeist in Australia.

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I am not the problem.

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So going on. The idea of relationality is this idea of relational accountability. So again, I'm going to bastardize this.

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I'm

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superficial dip in a teaser if you will.

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But within First nations, communities.

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you have relationality. You have your connections, but you have your responsibility. You are interconnected, based on your position. You you have your roles, and this means that you are anchored and accountable to community. It is more than a job.

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It is part of your being and

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quite simply, non-indigenous people do not have the same relational ties they can be tied in, but at the end of the day. You you cannot compare these ties. You have the privilege, as a non indigenous person. Should you choose to to leave.

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and the doors can close, and you can walk away.

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So I've

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put a couple of notes here that some of these things in different forms could be similar, or at least aspects of it could be things that people doing

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participatory institutional ethnographies or positive actors, political activists, ethnographies, could be people who are involved in deep ethnographies or to action research. But there's something that's really hard to describe that is not the same.

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Okay? So to go to this point, about the differences in standpoint. So maybe particularly more, for the people who are probably

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not familiar with

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either institutional ethnography or critical feminist or critical, indigenous

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fields

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in institutional ethnography. Your chosen standpoint is a methodological device. So it's your advantage point from which you will look at the institutions.

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So a a non like someone who is not a nurse can adopt the standpoint of a nurse

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that is methodologically okay, within the ie. Way of doing in feminist research. Outside of, ie.

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It's different. The use of the same word which I think can confuse people

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so indigenous standpoint. So from Australia. Alien. Martin Robinson is a powerhouse

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in terms of thinking about. Well, everything but particularly famous, I guess, for indigenous women's standpoint. Martin Nakado's Toaster Islander. He also talk about indigenous standpoint. These are where the indigenous person, as a researcher, is drawing from their own knowledge as an indigenous person, bringing in historical, cultural, political, and situated knowledges

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and

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other standpoint. So Patricia Hills columns. So I've got a typo from that North American context. Black feminist standpoint theory

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and feminist scholar Don a Harrowway also talking about standpoint. So this is drawing from so subjective, sorry, situate knowledge and reflexivities, and some of you might have might remember

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or have read the footnotes in Liz Stanley's small book about this kind of Raparte in 1,992 that Dorothy Smith and Pressure Shah Hill Collins had, and basically, they were like, you don't get it. No, you don't get it. And and and it was kind of they were they I I I saw what I felt they were being caught in this dynamic

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and my or in understanding is kind of like the I. E. Was like, no, we do it different. And we're just going to.

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Yeah, you you don't get it, and we'll keep going.

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 And I think this is because of the complex that this, this, this kind of complex relationship that i. E. Has with into identity, character categories. So we see things as beyond just labels. Labels are, you know that they created, and and and things are so much complicated. Excuse the pun. It's not black and white.

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So people who are indigenous could be involved in

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accomplice acts Non-indigenous people also can be doing or get caught up in these ruling relations as well. So we understand it's fraught.

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but it's still

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makes it awkward in terms of not identifying our own position. So what can we learn from this? A researcher standpoint? So

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oh, I shouldn't have used that word The researcher's position doesn't simply disappear as matters of empirical and ethical concern.

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When we adopt an informant standpoint.

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it's not like as if i. E's alternate understandings of subjectivity, social ontology shield us, or give us some immunity from having to reflect on our own positionality.

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and I would argue, and this is kind of what what we pinpointed in our discussions with Cheryl is that non-indigenous researchers are just so incredibly prone to institutional capture within the colonial ruling relations because we are and always will be settlers. It's how we have come to see the world. We may not be realizing we are doing it, even if you think you aren't.

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So. When we were looking through some text, these were kind of the 3 standouts that were doing, or at least considering, developing, thinking about and writing about these things, you might recognize them. so we have Susan Turner and Julie Bomber, who did a fantastic work in 6 Nations reserve North America. Here Susan, as the non-indigenous Canadian, was an independent consultant.

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and she was essentially

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assisting with the ie. Skills and knowledges with Julie, who was the service leader and and Julie was drawing from Hunosoni principals problem, legitizing the Ae concepts and really making it work for that community.

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John Paul Restool and colleagues were using, i. E. So indigenous researchers were using, i. E. To complement research grounded in an indigenous methodology, and Alex. Wilson and and Ellen Pence.

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also worked together Eleanor's consultant and Alex, in ensuring that the project was staying true to indigenous ways of knowing

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so how might non-indigenous. I ears approach positionality in their investigations.

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 and the point of reflection in institution. Ethnography is not to learn about the researcher per se, but to learn about the researcher's location within the ruling relations. That is the researcher's standpoint.

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So sorry. I feel like I'm probably being a bit repetitive.

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But it's okay to tell us who you are, but be transparent about how your practice addresses, or does not address your implication and participation in the colonial ruling relations.

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This is to prompt your thinking. If you are a settler, and your idea is to unsettle the satellite, use your understandings of this location to inform all the aspects of your everyday research work. The goal is to disrupt and not reproduce.

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But also don't turn this all into something that's all about you, that then you're just refocusing on whiteness.

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Commit to a lifelong ongoing project of unloading colonial ways, of being and knowing and doing, and importantly.

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reflect on how your work is contributing or not to indigenous self-determination.

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Okay, what strategies and tactics? so Cheryl did some great archival archival. It's probably some scavenging through the literature. and found this great quote from Dorothy, who talks about the difference between partial and full reflexivity.

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And so Dorothy writes, full reflexivity is achieved when we recognize our entry into the social relations of which we speak, so that we can address our own practices and also address critically our own methods.

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some other things that could be useful. so

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These right notified from Cheryl. So Reed's got this I poem so based on, and it also uses the listening guide, and I've got the references of the back, and these are looking at kind of like interview transcripts or journal entries when people are using I and seeing what? What are they?

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What are these people doing? And this is a way of kind of seeing the problematics.

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Another exercise was. Jacobson and my staff are looking at your own social identity map. So yes, these are categories. But it's a bit of a prompt to see how these may or may not be influencing your position within the social relations.

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Okay. So, checking in and consider which might be the best standpoint for you to adopt. Given your circumstances and position.

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indigenous people to take the leads on projects about them, get permission from, involve, and take guidance from indigenous people in research design to the dissemination. And there's a bunch of guidelines that not just guidelines or regulatory texts.

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in certain contexts

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that her really you have to do this. So there's the O cap. in North America, as the consider statement, there's a bunch of things that basically say, these are the steps that you must take if you're working with indigenous peoples.

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another one that is a bit, maybe a different is considering refusal as analytical practice. So this is Tak Nyang

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in a decolonializing way. That saying no or not participating in research is also actually important.

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A timing. Okay? So in conclusion, non-indigenous researchers.

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I would argue also have relational responsibilities to the indigenous community. These issues of position, positionality, and reflex, if you do extend beyond, ie. And are a process, not a thing.

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but it would be great to continue the discussion about whether you think this is relevant to i. E. personal decolonization acetates a lifespan approach. So it's not just a thing that you do quickly and move on.

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Smith. So Dorothy Smith take on full reflex reflexivity invites appraisal of the extent to which I you research practice is relational.

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And here there is an opportunity for thatlist to turn the mirror inwards to explicate the colonial ruling relations.

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and I have. Cheryl has done a stellar job. There's way more references. There's so much staff she's scoured.

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so I do invite you to grab some references from me. We're happy to send them on. and I do want to acknowledge that I'm very grateful that I've only been able to attend today because I was able to get a bursary from Isa and Taza to be here.

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That's our contact. Details love letters, hate mail, go for it.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And those amazing that if a mic drop presentation, I have to say so I don't know how we want to do the Q. And a. In terms of sharing between you and I in the room, you can obviously see more than I can.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): because you can see the room. Yeah. yeah.

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we. Okay. So sorry. Someone in the or so we do have right roving mics. I I can't actually turn the camera around as much as I want to, because it's plugged in by 5 different cables. But if anyone in the room is logged into zoom, we could have an alternate video that reflects

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onto, are you? Do you? Could you use your camera? Sorry. We just set this up for a sec.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): So while they're setting that up, if anyone has any initial questions or comments they want to put in the chat and or to raise their hand online. And then we can call on you if you have any questions for the 3 presenters.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): Oh, great, yeah, I can see the room.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): Oh, great. So I think we have a question online.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): go on ahead.

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is it?

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): Yes, is it.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's okay. Well, I am. I was really impressed by the 3 speakers. So I think that they were all

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Kjeld Høgsbro: giving some really important points, and also some critical contributions to

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Kjeld Høgsbro: to the I, Tradition?

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Kjeld Høgsbro:  I I have. I have several questions, but the first questions I thought about was a a little tricky because of one did. Why, about the the 2 concepts indigenous and first nation

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Kjeld Høgsbro:  all those ways expressed by indigenous people and first nation people and the Sophia you use those concepts.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: And actually, I thought that that indigenous was on its way out

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Kjeld Høgsbro: of the this calls And and what do you think about those 2 using those 2 concepts?

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Kjeld Høgsbro: Or maybe skipping the concept of indigenous.

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Okay, so and apologies it of us slipping. But generally the. The issue is a global and local one. So in in Canada, where Cheryl is from first nations has got a different meaning to first nations in Australia, in that

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in Australia we're moving away from using aboriginal Torresher Islander towards using first nations as the term. Recognizing that these nations were here, they were the first nations and that acknowledges their sovereignty in a greater extent than the terms aboriginal and torture Islander do.

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In Canada there are first nations, there are Inuit and Matisse people. These categories, so to speak, are all indigenous people, and so the metis get frustrated. I guess if you call them first nations because there's different political and legal

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implications based on those terms. So basically, when I used the term indigenous. I'm referring to indigenous people globally, like thinking of the United Nations declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples, and if I was using first nations. I was imagining

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Australian first nations peoples

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Kjeld Høgsbro: that. because while you were talking, I was thinking that

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Kjeld Høgsbro: if there was some kind of aliens from our space that colonized the earth, we would all be indigenous people when we were pushed into marginalized areas. And the aliens has, occupied all the productive area on the earth

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Kjeld Høgsbro: so indigenous has a kind of connotation to.

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Yes, it does. And I think this reflects the dynamic nature of concepts and language and terms. And these things change over time

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and it.

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Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And so, are there any other questions in the room? And then maybe online.

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We have one question in the room. Just wait a moment. We'll get the roving mic.

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So well.

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just to just to comment.

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I thought these presentations were great, and I also want to particularly sort of

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complement, Sophie. There at the end, I think.

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there's sometimes a little bit of fear, and i E around

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thinking through these concepts. And

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I just want to encourage you to keep going, because I think it's really really important what you're doing right now, and actually.

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particularly for places like Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. I think this is

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actually related to the future of i. E. In those places, and so thank you very much for spending the time with this. You and your colleague.

439
01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:49.929
and you know it's going to be

440
01:22:51.260 --> 01:23:04.790
your status as an independent scholar is really interesting from an ie. Perspective, right? And so who knows? Maybe some of the best I can come out from people outside of the institutions, right? So that's really interesting.

441
01:23:04.940 --> 01:23:06.680
Thank you. Thank you.

442
01:23:09.780 --> 01:23:17.490
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): raising my own hands. And I have a question for all 3 presenters about a time.

443
01:23:17.650 --> 01:23:21.570
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): because I think that is quite a interesting

444
01:23:21.640 --> 01:23:34.530
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): in all of the presentations. So I think with a bass, there was something about you differentiated, different types of work which I really loved. And then I was thinking about institutional time versus.

445
01:23:34.840 --> 01:24:01.839
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): you know, actual clock time in terms of you starting before the institutional process. What work to the students have to do to get into the classroom. And it's all this extra time. And it was making me think about the concept of crypt times, which is used to think about disabled people's relationship to time. And so I think a lot about time for you. And then with 9 case work about this waiting or not, and almost you being asked to like

446
01:24:02.030 --> 01:24:25.149
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): participate on the institutional time of the Alderman Alderman Alderman. I I wasn't sure if I got the the Alderman, and and this idea of like in institution ethnography being captured. But for you that that was about time, and that was quite interesting. How are you being asked to participate on their institutional time? And why is that doing politically free?

447
01:24:25.160 --> 01:24:47.570
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And then, I think, with Sophie, you know, just amazing reflexivity, personality, distinctions that I was just like. Yes, then in my my room, quietly. But this this idea of like lifespan approaches, and the different ways of thinking about time with different indigenous approaches to time. So it's just, it's a very broad question for everybody.

448
01:24:53.040 --> 01:24:54.550
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): A bus. Do you want to go first.

449
01:25:00.160 --> 01:25:02.299
Abass Isiaka: Okay, yeah, thank you.

450
01:25:02.470 --> 01:25:04.900
Abass Isiaka: feel for a question.

451
01:25:05.320 --> 01:25:12.899
Abass Isiaka: And I just want to say that the the last politician was really, I think my presentation. I was going to say

452
01:25:12.920 --> 01:25:18.820
Abass Isiaka: if for my conversation with, for my conversation with all that

453
01:25:18.990 --> 01:25:25.240
Abass Isiaka: and how we've been trying to think about thinking decolon reality through

454
01:25:25.300 --> 01:25:43.529
Abass Isiaka: through reflectivity. And I've been writing around the book it wasn't right for this presentation for this conference, so the feature. Would I have something to share? that my reflections on the the dialogue between ie. And the

455
01:25:43.620 --> 01:25:48.179
Abass Isiaka: so time? Yeah, I I think.

456
01:25:48.630 --> 01:26:03.959
Abass Isiaka: Linda to your satellite. also, what about the the the colonial understanding of time, of space? And then that's to to. And it's like to try to related to the what the students do.

457
01:26:04.030 --> 01:26:15.199
Abass Isiaka: yes, this official time. And is this all all feature time? And and even in cases that you have had to observe students going to night classes.

458
01:26:15.610 --> 01:26:26.120
Abass Isiaka: not so say, recognized by you. Should what students have to do the extra work to prep for exams to get someone to read for them. So

459
01:26:26.310 --> 01:26:38.069
Abass Isiaka: for for instance, after the class like, okay, when everyone thinks here, the day is done, then they have to look for someone who is going to reach the text.

460
01:26:38.130 --> 01:26:43.409
Abass Isiaka: could be a notes or anything that would that to them. Then they will have to pray

461
01:26:43.520 --> 01:27:00.889
Abass Isiaka: what the person's reading, because there's no any additional support to do the brilliant. So they they have to so on us to read that set where they they notes, and they have to. And brill using their

462
01:27:01.080 --> 01:27:31.019
Abass Isiaka: They're styles to to unpre all the text themselves so that they can be able to be. So. This is a next start, this extra years of well, say activities that they have to engage in. And so which is all recognized by the decision. These, those will see this, but it's probably just turned down because they expect that okay view are going to be here. They have to do this work. So, but this work is not a well

463
01:27:31.050 --> 01:27:37.919
Abass Isiaka: at college, or even research in policy policy research. We don't get to know

464
01:27:37.950 --> 01:27:51.069
Abass Isiaka: it, the untidiness of policy, enactment, and how? What people do in this process of in that. So that is a really what I what i' to to look at, and we have time

465
01:27:51.300 --> 01:27:59.649
Abass Isiaka: and and and and and and in the understanding what it's also very important that

466
01:27:59.700 --> 01:28:02.100
Abass Isiaka: it probably out to. I just have to.

467
01:28:02.160 --> 01:28:16.250
Abass Isiaka: I I'll have have one more on on that time in. Yeah. Well, I mean just to for out and explore this work. Yeah, thank you.

468
01:28:18.500 --> 01:28:20.390
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): You want to speak. Come up.

469
01:28:22.090 --> 01:28:50.830
Nanke Verloo: I think this is very provoking question. or I think you thank you for that. I am in immediately. see so many different. yeah. Instances of this different experience of time between these different institutions and citizens. Not all of them are very political, but they do have a real effect on how people experience these types of participatory processes, and whether they feel included or not.

470
01:28:50.830 --> 01:29:12.240
Nanke Verloo: One very prompting example is, for example, that these citizens, were, of course, like always, not for the first time, invited to participate about the planning of this space. This was already the third or fourth participatory process that they were involved in. So for them this case study starts way before

471
01:29:12.240 --> 01:29:28.870
Nanke Verloo: the case, study starts for the policymaker, and even for the politician, and these institutions have so little learning that they cannot really they don't even know that the same institution 3 years ago did a similar process around the similar about the exact same space.

472
01:29:28.870 --> 01:29:43.269
Nanke Verloo: and in the end decided to not for go forward with the plan. So for me, this this element of time is also about analyzing how people feel recognized for the time that they spend on institutions.

473
01:29:43.290 --> 01:29:48.909
Nanke Verloo: and how through time, people can really experience misrecognition

474
01:29:49.180 --> 01:29:54.110
Nanke Verloo: through these different yeah expectations and experiences of timing.

475
01:29:54.170 --> 01:29:58.599
Nanke Verloo: So thank you. Maybe I can somehow, you know, bring that into the paper as well.

476
01:30:00.730 --> 01:30:03.669
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): So if you. I don't know if you want to speak them up. We're going back to the

477
01:30:04.420 --> 01:30:15.040
I was going to make a stupid pun and say, how much time have you got? I I guess I would reinforce. What about said about the coloniality of time?

478
01:30:15.100 --> 01:30:29.620
Time is colonized, particularly in our institutions. Relationality takes time. you know, at time is insignificant when you consider the spectrum of time that has happened from time of memorial of indigenous peoples being here.

479
01:30:29.640 --> 01:30:35.699
So for me. One of the reasons why I quit my academic job was that I didn't have the time

480
01:30:35.790 --> 01:30:47.159
to do the things that were meaningful to me and to community. My time was being spent on institutional bureaucracy that was actually in So

481
01:30:47.260 --> 01:30:56.490
opposition and obstacles to what was required, or I saw, and the community saw the work to be. So yeah, time is important

482
01:30:56.950 --> 01:30:58.070
and different.

483
01:31:01.970 --> 01:31:07.930
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And I don't know if you want to take any questions from the room and then come back, and then we have one from

484
01:31:08.300 --> 01:31:11.289
Do we have any questions in the room? Yeah, we've got our mic.

485
01:31:11.300 --> 01:31:33.400
Did you want to introduce yourself to first before questions, just to make it easier for the onlineers. Speaker one sure great. Hi! Everyone thanks so much. My name is Daniel Grace. I'm an associate Prof. At the University of Toronto, I guess. Just a bit of a comment. I really really enjoyed the session. I've I do a lot of work with 2 S. Lgbtq people in Canada.

486
01:31:33.400 --> 01:31:57.490
and working on a number of Ies recently. And I guess the comment is a bit of a I guess reflection on. And this is building on, on your excellent talk, Sophie, a transformation both of the research funding infrastructure and reb applications that name work with indigenous, indigent, queer, and two-spirit people, and

487
01:31:57.610 --> 01:32:07.270
often I find both funding applications and reb submissions quite binary. You're either doing indigenous work, or you're not

488
01:32:07.310 --> 01:32:09.120
And

489
01:32:09.290 --> 01:32:26.259
this is I. I'm just kind of reflecting a little bit on your piece about how we theorize standpoint. So you use an example of a nurse so an occupational category. I do a lot of work with healthcare providers.

490
01:32:26.480 --> 01:32:40.870
Well, our health care providers indigenous. I'm not excluding indigenous participants, so I kind of name that because we work with a lot of indigia, queer pharmacists doing work. So there's been a bit of a struggle to try to communicate

491
01:32:40.940 --> 01:33:00.070
mit Ctl. And standpoint for non-quote identity standpoint participants to to some Ahre B's. In contrast to identity-based categories like to S Lgbtq students within a university where the standpoint is a little bit more explicit one.

492
01:33:00.080 --> 01:33:17.440
I guess. sorry if that's a bit of a muddy comment, but I I guess I'm just reflecting a lot on the challenges of how to do this work. Well, when we're trying to be inclusive of diverse experiences, but that the

493
01:33:17.570 --> 01:33:27.040
a standpoint isn't decidedly an indigenous and digital queer two-spirit standpoint like full stop. And so I've just been doing a lot of work

494
01:33:27.100 --> 01:33:37.279
with my team, with elders at the university with, and to queer researchers and students to try to do this work in a good way

495
01:33:37.510 --> 01:33:45.109
and try to be able to explain that to funders and and the Rebs. So I think

496
01:33:45.220 --> 01:33:59.969
mit Ctl, and I just really, the comment is just how much I appreciate this discussion and how much work I think there is to do to do it well in ways that don't essentialize indigenous knowledge and and standpoints.

497
01:34:00.380 --> 01:34:01.220
Yeah.

498
01:34:03.710 --> 01:34:06.690
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): do you know, if the speakers want to respond to that.

499
01:34:06.750 --> 01:34:30.289
 narratives in the room. She's just taking the light to this. Thank you. Yeah. I I think these are all fantastic comments, and thank you to the presenters as a resident session. But I was just going to ask a a bus for a reaction to Sophie's presentation, including in terms of, I suppose, working with people with disabilities.

500
01:34:30.800 --> 01:34:39.479
 you know, in in terms of, I guess exactly that idea around identity and and your work as an I.

501
01:34:49.920 --> 01:34:59.200
Abass Isiaka: Yeah, thank you very much. I I didn't quite get the name. But yes, your question is a

502
01:34:59.580 --> 01:35:04.340
Abass Isiaka: struggle for me, as a say, not disabled person

503
01:35:04.750 --> 01:35:15.520
Abass Isiaka: trying to research disability, inclusion, and walking with people with disabilities in in our education.

504
01:35:15.540 --> 01:35:27.349
Abass Isiaka: So why, I see myself as part of the problem that is coordinating a nightly experience. I've tried to

505
01:35:27.390 --> 01:35:29.430
Abass Isiaka: say I do for

506
01:35:29.630 --> 01:35:46.200
Abass Isiaka: in more, say, participate in transforming to research. We should a relation on transformative research. We we don't just understand this organization. I mean, how is it organized?

507
01:35:46.650 --> 01:35:55.039
Abass Isiaka: Then we trying to see, how can we work to transform. this situation. So and I've been.

508
01:35:55.200 --> 01:35:58.240
Abass Isiaka: I'm trying to explore. I like to rings

509
01:35:58.430 --> 01:36:07.599
Abass Isiaka: sociological integration or so compared to the of a

510
01:36:07.740 --> 01:36:29.430
Abass Isiaka: inspect act or trying to get see how the students also contribute to the transformation. So for me, the the transformation part of my research is, how on it to say, allow these people to take this knowledge that we've co-created and use that to transform this T.

511
01:36:29.470 --> 01:36:36.660
Abass Isiaka: So so that's how I I of trying to say, Okay, what we're supposed to see?

512
01:36:36.770 --> 01:36:48.959
Abass Isiaka: what can I? What can I contribute to today? Actually, so basically, I'll understand how how much of in my

513
01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:55.970
Abass Isiaka: say ghosts contribute to what I research more determined, how I even

514
01:36:55.990 --> 01:37:06.430
Abass Isiaka: go by my analysis. And then what's voice. So Where? How do I represent this in staff of discover, I hope.

515
01:37:07.280 --> 01:37:15.869
Abass Isiaka: Try to explore in the field. So it's it's It's a very patient terrain for me as someone

516
01:37:16.180 --> 01:37:31.509
Abass Isiaka: who is seen as the norm sort of most senses, and then then trying to understand how I have also contributed to this to this. So I I try to sort of come out of that and see

517
01:37:31.650 --> 01:37:51.229
Abass Isiaka: what so so the transformation is would be to me one way, I have a photo. Okay, how to be beyond this, all of orientation of policies, or what I've discovered in terms of how things are organized. Then how do we move forward? That? How do we shift this through the course of Annunciation? To to see

518
01:37:51.310 --> 01:37:57.170
Abass Isiaka: what's can be done in a in a. you know. So that's a

519
01:37:57.470 --> 01:38:15.840
Abass Isiaka: the before that it before that aspect of my work, and which i years not even half we try and kind of moving beyond what we know. But I'm trying to see. How can we did it transform this? So that's And that's what I have been trying to do to see.

520
01:38:15.960 --> 01:38:30.279
Abass Isiaka: And this kind of give him back. And of course, we have this existential problem of extraction. And also me research in doing going home. So I'm his home. Comma research at going to say.

521
01:38:30.480 --> 01:38:39.859
Abass Isiaka: coming from the Uk and going to Nigeria and trying to understand how people do things. So I go there with you. Love for

522
01:38:40.170 --> 01:38:46.269
Abass Isiaka: yeah, I have to kind of.

523
01:38:46.440 --> 01:39:07.269
Abass Isiaka: And and just removing this to that is colonial, so that I tend to wear almost every time I kind of say even speak to people do it. See me where they perceive the credibility. I kind of crew would be. I mean everything

524
01:39:07.320 --> 01:39:21.850
Abass Isiaka: that Google's around. what's  So it's it's the only the the categorization being able. And on non disab, but it also

525
01:39:21.930 --> 01:39:28.370
Abass Isiaka: more. Well, the General, bring in the whole self to the message. And how does I?

526
01:39:28.590 --> 01:39:30.200
Abass Isiaka: The the findings?

527
01:39:31.340 --> 01:39:41.999
Thank you so much for that. I think you've given us a lot to think about in terms of supervising Ph. D. Students as well for those of us who do that say thanks of us.

528
01:39:42.360 --> 01:39:44.069
is another comment. Here

529
01:39:50.240 --> 01:40:11.680
Mine is just Hi! Oh, hi! I'm associate, Professor Rebecca Olson at University of Queensland, and I am somewhat of a visitor. I'm a a video reflex of ethnographer and critical reflex of ethnographer, but I I don't. I haven't done any institutional ethnography before I just wanted to muse on the term rigor.

530
01:40:11.740 --> 01:40:31.420
So nunky you you focused on this in your presentation, and it reminded me of Laurel Richardson's kind of highlighting of the discursive power of these metaphors like rigor, and how they perhaps, you know, Heckman might say they they reinvest in a kind of hard science dualism

531
01:40:31.420 --> 01:40:44.709
to kind of, you know, a more feminist soft science approach and that they perhaps push us towards rigidity rather than flexibility, and was just musing on that, and thinking how that

532
01:40:44.730 --> 01:40:49.490
perhaps kind of might be entangled within your process.

533
01:40:54.410 --> 01:41:00.339
Hi! My name is Frank Wong from Taiwan. I want to follow up on that.

534
01:41:00.930 --> 01:41:15.270
When I teach qualitative method, I always mentioned to a student that there is a critical paradigm, and I think participatory action research, and i. E. They all fall into critical paradigm.

535
01:41:15.440 --> 01:41:16.740
And

536
01:41:16.799 --> 01:41:24.600
the basic assumption of a critical paradigm is that knowledge is about power.

537
01:41:24.670 --> 01:41:45.370
that the truth tend to define by power relations. So we produce knowledge trying to transform that power, knowledge, pop power relations. So I wonder if Nanti, when you talk about your dilemma. I haven't heard that. What is your

538
01:41:45.379 --> 01:41:48.789
political position when you do the research?

539
01:41:49.020 --> 01:42:07.219
 when I say political? It doesn't mean It's in general how you see the power relations at that in the field. So how you see why you want to do the research who you want to stand with.

540
01:42:07.219 --> 01:42:24.060
and I think the dilemma that you encounter is really the occasion that that for you to clarify your political analysis of of this power relations, and what you want to do with this? with your research.

541
01:42:24.850 --> 01:42:27.950
So that's my follow up question for you.

542
01:42:28.120 --> 01:42:29.049
Thank you.

543
01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:41.700
Nanke Verloo: Thank you for these questions. This is, of course, the first question that people ask me right, like, What is your political stance?

544
01:42:41.879 --> 01:42:59.940
Nanke Verloo: We have to make it normative, apparently, and I. I come from a from a tradition of the critical tradition. That does that, indeed. So I'm totally fine. Revealing my my political stance. My political stance was with the citizens, obviously

545
01:43:00.049 --> 01:43:18.469
Nanke Verloo: who didn't want their their neighborhood to be made much more dense than what they thought would be good for the public space in their neighborhoods. But I also have to say that the this is not a case about a marginalized group.

546
01:43:18.530 --> 01:43:29.379
Nanke Verloo: So this is not a marginalized group of citizens that don't have any voice. This would be very affluent group of citizens who have a lot of influence in the public debate.

547
01:43:29.680 --> 01:43:39.420
Nanke Verloo: So the political stance that the researcher takes in this specific moment is not as easy as who do you stand with?

548
01:43:39.549 --> 01:43:54.330
Nanke Verloo: Because there is also the situation where people say, Hey, it's always these affluent white citizens that can in the end have the political voice to stop these types of processes. And for whom are these apartments build

549
01:43:54.549 --> 01:44:25.729
Nanke Verloo: for. So for social housing they were built by sociology or so for people with much less of a voice in the public debate. So it's my political stance with the people who don't live there yet, but for whom? This is Bill? Is it with the politicians who try to stand up for those? Or is it with the people who are affluent, and in this case study, and who don't want their neighborhood to be mixed? And it is already mixed, because almost every neighborhood in Amsterdam is very mixed.

550
01:44:25.880 --> 01:44:42.610
Nanke Verloo: But, They were not against social housing, they were against the amount of people that would be added to a very limited amount of public space. So with that complexity, it was not so easy for me to say. My standpoint is that

551
01:44:43.040 --> 01:45:04.839
Nanke Verloo: I couldn't do that because my standpoint would be on all of these signs, because I really could see the, the, the political power of all these different arguments. And this is exactly why it turned into a dilemma for me. If it was easy, then this wouldn't be a dilemma. It would be easy to make a decision.

552
01:45:04.950 --> 01:45:19.580
Nanke Verloo: So I I really, of course, the opposite of what I try to do is to make make it more rigid with saying rigor, I mean I, for me is not about the word could be any words. It's just an argument of

553
01:45:19.580 --> 01:45:36.939
Nanke Verloo: rethinking political, the political effects of what we are doing as researchers, and in a position where the standpoint is not so easy to be made, because it's not clearly who is the one with the least voice, or who is the one that needs

554
01:45:36.970 --> 01:45:42.119
Nanke Verloo: support, or who needs? Who is the one for who the world should be changing?

555
01:45:42.210 --> 01:45:45.389
Nanke Verloo: This was not as easy to be decided, for

556
01:45:49.080 --> 01:45:59.419
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): that's so interesting. Are there any other questions in the room? I think we have about 4 min left? and I know that.

557
01:45:59.770 --> 01:46:02.859
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): their hands up if you want to ask another quick question.

558
01:46:03.280 --> 01:46:04.320
Yeah.

559
01:46:04.500 --> 01:46:07.879
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): there is a question in the room. Just one moment.

560
01:46:16.060 --> 01:46:32.779
First, I just want to say, thank you for all of these presentations, and I'm still processing them. So my name is Laura Parson. I'm an associate professor of educational and organizational leadership. So I come from education in the United States, in North Dakota.

561
01:46:33.190 --> 01:46:38.869
and so some. So this isn't about me. But some background is one of the

562
01:46:39.070 --> 01:46:42.320
all of these sessions have been the things that I've just been like

563
01:46:42.790 --> 01:46:57.539
thinking about and trying to come together so early on in my career. I wrote a chapter on positionality, research, or Positionality. And I loved seeing in your title with the idea of doing research with and not on

564
01:46:57.890 --> 01:46:59.430
and then also

565
01:46:59.720 --> 01:47:04.830
kind of more recently reflecting on what it means to do decolonizing work.

566
01:47:05.050 --> 01:47:07.869
And I wrote a pretty, I want to say, like

567
01:47:08.100 --> 01:47:28.330
self-flagellating piece. that sort of talked about how everything that I thought was decolonizing wasn't which is it? It's true it or that's true. which is was at. I believe it was accurate, but one of the things that the reviewers have pushed back on me for is recognizing

568
01:47:28.450 --> 01:47:30.070
that often.

569
01:47:30.570 --> 01:47:39.830
Well, I think to have so many thoughts, and I'm going to be thinking about this forever. And I should have just asked for your presentation, Sophie, because I just took a picture of every slide.

570
01:47:40.150 --> 01:47:43.349
So that's weird. But I think

571
01:47:44.320 --> 01:47:46.240
one of the things I

572
01:47:46.840 --> 01:47:56.580
I think about, and I've been thinking about a lot from the reviewer's comment is, when we think about what decolonizing means.

573
01:47:56.960 --> 01:48:07.630
and we think about what that means for our research. And I know I'm pushing maybe this a little bit further. but decolonizing gives us so much more like doing.

574
01:48:08.010 --> 01:48:10.150
thinking about doing research with

575
01:48:10.310 --> 01:48:22.640
indigenous peoples, which is a broad monolith, right? Obviously, or I don't want to say, obviously. But if we're when we're talking about specific groups of people, we name them the way that they want to be named. But often we have to use broader categories.

576
01:48:22.770 --> 01:48:33.530
So language is tricky and and not all the way. But when we think about doing doing decolonizing work, and we think about doing research as a decolonizing practice. I.

577
01:48:33.880 --> 01:48:43.049
There are ways that we need to be thoughtful. There are perhaps perhaps limits that it puts on our research, but also, like in conversation with

578
01:48:43.410 --> 01:48:45.499
these scholars, and with this

579
01:48:45.610 --> 01:48:55.110
and knowledge is that have been present for so long, it's more, it gives us the opportunity to see more and to do more.

580
01:48:56.420 --> 01:49:00.929
I feel like sometimes. And this is what I'm still troubling with. Sometimes we see

581
01:49:01.800 --> 01:49:09.520
either we see like there being a disconnection between. Either I'm doing the colonizing research or I'm not. But recognizing that we're on.

582
01:49:10.190 --> 01:49:35.929
we're we're always on land. All of our work is always in conversation. We're always in conversation. We don't there. There isn't a separation. And then recognizing when we can do the work and and take responsibility for understanding what this means. And starting very, basically with books like researchers, ceremony. Recognizing that at the end of the day what's left is so much more And there's a book that I like was trying to find on my ipad. But I can't find it that really talks about

583
01:49:36.050 --> 01:49:40.100
decolonization. Or if we're doing decolonizing work.

584
01:49:40.420 --> 01:49:49.730
can be a conversation, a conversation with so not just participation with. But that work is in conversation with often these these knowledge, and so

585
01:49:50.860 --> 01:50:00.119
like, I said, you can tell. I'm still thinking through all of this. I think it's so wonderful. I guess the final thing I'll say, because I probably have talked for a very long time yet.

586
01:50:01.430 --> 01:50:06.900
is that I don't. I often see the end result of institutional ethnography.

587
01:50:07.010 --> 01:50:20.059
If we think about revealing structures as being very complementary with the idea of decolonizing work, because if we can use or think about an institutional ethnography as

588
01:50:20.270 --> 01:50:23.899
helping to find even more evidence of

589
01:50:23.970 --> 01:50:49.059
colonizing structures. I find that as like a a revolutionary connection. And so what I think was so important about your presentation, Sophie, too, is, how do we then come into this. And I I I I'll say all of the presentations. How do we come into that acknowledging and and taking responsibility as researchers? Recognizing again that conversation that we're having simply by doing research

590
01:50:49.300 --> 01:51:14.889
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): have to cut in just because we're just running over time now. and I I really I you know time. It's a nightmare, but want us to have a break before the next panel. I really need to look towards it, and I'm on the next panel, and we only have 10 min, but maybe just to end on that very provocative like reflection, and to give a clap to all of our presenters and say, Thank you so much for your presentation

591
01:51:14.900 --> 01:51:16.990
brought up so many intestine products.

592
01:51:17.050 --> 01:51:24.859
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): And it's amazing they're wonderful. And let's continue the conversation. So in about 10 min. I think there's another panel in this room

593
01:51:25.250 --> 01:51:26.749
Órla Meadhbh Murray (she/her): nice to see you. So

594
01:51:26.820 --> 01:51:27.000
I know that the time zone is probably terrible for most of the online people. But some of these threads will be continued in the next session. So if you are able to stay, I do strongly recommend it. I think it's going to be amazing.