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Okay. Well, this welcome to our very last session of i. E. For for this conference. It's been amazing week wonderful discussions. so fabulous

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to be here.

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I'm just going to really read our acknowledgment, and it's marginally different from from that one that we've come to grow to love. Thank you.

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So on your behalf this morning I'd like to acknowledge the war, and Jerry Wa. Warum, first, peoples of the Kulin nation.

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whose lands were never seeded.

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We pay respects to elders, past and present.

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and all first nations delegates. Here today

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we are all guests on their land. This was

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and always will be, aboriginal land.

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So, having said, that will move straight on, we've got 4 fabulous presentations, I know, because we've we've heard all the cord at all is a word we use in.

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I'll tell you for for discussion. So first up

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is

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Rachel Webster and Rhonda Mckelty, who we've met a few times over this this week and last night both presented.

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and they are talking about their own personal disjunctions moments of capture for researchers conducting institutional ethnography.

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So

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without we're going to share. So excuse me fumbling on the machines back here.

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You

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no

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that's it.

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Thank you very much.

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Here we go, Team

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Kyoto.

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and we are people of

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altered or New Zealand, so our place is there. But we acknowledge that the people and places

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of this land on which we stand in the country of Australia.

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This is this is a presentation of a conversation that Rhonda and I have had over the last 6, 7 years. Well, since we had it 5 years, 2 years we were captured.

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And this conversation is one that's this played out over many different platforms and in times. And we're now inviting the room and zoom into this conversation to

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See what parts of your journey, you can see, and what we've experienced, and see if we can throw the letter down, I suppose, for future I ears, and to, I suppose, raise the collective of the i. E. As a

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as a safe

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process.

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So when we began, when we began our research, we

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 we began thinking we knew what we were going to find, as many researchers do sit up thinking. I know what the problem is here.

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So we merrily drove off down capture highway

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and very quickly hit a lot of fault line. Bumps and kind of were a bit baffled by that, and started to slow down and pay attention to what we're hearing in our research and the

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impact that that was having on our perception of capture, our belief that we knew what we were doing and where we were going.

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So so very briefly, we're going to each describe

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our personal, just juncture so that we can share the story that will hopefully illuminate for you all that process that we've been on. Because it is the storytelling, isn't it, Frank? This is at the heart of that How we connect to i, e.

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and to open those doors to. Yeah, really examine that.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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so this is. This is me, Dr. Rachel Webster. I am a nurse.

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and in New Zealand, at the time that I was approaching doctor or study, we had just refreshed our health strategy, and it was all about person-centered gear which I thought fantastic people at the centre. Absolutely. This is appropriate for everyone.

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And then I thought right, i. E. So I'd sort of been mulling this, ie. Business over, and I sort of understood that it was about making this work visible and and social organization. I thought, well, how is this work of being person sent? It organized?

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 And already there there should be some alarm. But I was going off for people that. Oh, my goodness, she's entirely captured by whatever this person's seen to key your business is.

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and I but I carried on, how is this work of person centered care. How does it enter into those everyday lives? And so I positioned myself

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with a patient standpoint. This is my patient here in this year, and and talking with patients

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I was asking, you know, about. Tell me about what you do and what you experience, and I'm sort of listening going. Hmm!

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It doesn't really fit with what I've been sort of reading about person seed. And this is Okay, well, let's maybe ask a few more things about different places, and and no, still, I'm not seeing it there, and I'm thinking, but as a nurse I'm feeling certain I'm person-centered.

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And then I went back to the literature, and read a bit more about person-saintedness and going. Yes, this is what I do.

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You know I'm I I use these care plans that are that are very efficient, and they organized

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this excellent care for my my person at the center. and I facilitate very timely discharges. So yes, now I'm making sure they get out on time.

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And the more and more I read and the more I started going back to my data, I realized that

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what actually I was doing was a very clinician-centered model. Everything that was shaped and organized was putting the clinician at the center

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and getting further and further away from the patient at the center.

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which, as an I you finding, is brilliant. But as a nurse, I thought, Oh, my gosh!

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I've been doing

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this

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and my whole career, thinking that I was doing fabulous work. But in fact, I was actually practicing the tools of new public management. I was being very efficient. I was being very standardized. I was being, you know, I I was moving people along a machine.

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I'm thinking that because I was saying good morning and and and paying very close attention to them that I was putting them at the center. So that was

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challenging.

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So yeah, this is me. 20 years of trying to work on so staffing from the front line, and then later, as a designer implementer of the strategies around that.

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and went into my Ph. D. With absolute capture and relief that we we would designed the perfect solution.

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And entering into the

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research that way.

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means that. That's what you're looking for. You go looking for what you think is happening. So so I were diligently collecting data, and I would be listening for reinforcing ideas about what I thought was happening.

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and I wasn't hearing them.

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And so I was kind of trying to nudge people as you do nudge people in the direction that I want them to go and say the things I'm say. But no, it's not happening.

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And so I'm having to rethink. Okay, what does this mean?

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And all along my supervisors, including Professor Jenny Carrier and Jenna Rankin.

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must have been looking at my writing and and listening to me talking in our supervisor sessions and thinking, wait for it at some point up here she's going to go.

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And sure enough, about 18 months into my Phd. I was like

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holy cow.

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This is not accomplishing what we thought it was accomplishing, and

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that is what do I do with that?

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So I had been. This is the small hero picture that Dorothy had in her

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1,996. So my position had been up here, and therefore I went in, as I said, looking for that.

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But in my research I'd position to myself here. And I started to do this mapping, this very elaborate mapping. And

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you know, listening to what people were saying, I was having to write things that I had never expected.

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and as those became more and more dominant in my writing and

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submission to my supervisors, you know they were doing a lot of. So what do you think about that?

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What do you think about that? You know as opposed to what it mean for you. And yeah, I really got to a point where I thought

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a I had to resign from my job in the safe strategy unit, which I did

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and also that I wanted to put all my research in a box and put it under the bed and not not do it. Not think about it, because

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this was

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I. He gave me the eyes to see what I couldn't see before.

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and that was distressing, because for me, personally.

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I took it. Personally, I wasn't the only person who designed and implemented these strategies in New Zealand. There was a bunch of us, and it was done with a very large group of

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equally captured people.

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But I felt a personal sense of culpability for inserting this complexity into Nuis's work, and this time away from the patients in this new discourse and this new way of thinking, colonized thinking.

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I was a part of ensuing all that

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into the frontline workforce of the whole of New Zealand. Not just a couple of people like everybody.

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So yeah, I I wallowed. I wallowed, and self-pity for a while about that.

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and was hugely conflicted. And it really derailed my research like I really it derailed my progress, my thinking. and it was only when I started to populate the squares that were empty in the previous slide.

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With how this has come to be

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that I got to the place I was talking about in my previous session of realising that there's nowhere else we could have ended up

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because everything we've done has been framed by new public management by these much higher level ideologies.

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And so

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nurse's work is definitely framed by that. Our work in the unit is definitely framed like that. All the researchers frame like that. All of the operating hospitals is framed like that. So here's where we were destined to be.

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So.

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Part of that meant that I could

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feel that

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the outcome. the discoveries of the ie.

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Were inevitable.

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and that's the gift of I I guess

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the challenge with that is that once you can see with i. Eis you can't not see with ie. Eyes. And so

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the safe staffing project in New Zealand is only one of many things going on in health here in New Zealand that I now look at with ie. Eyes and go what you can see things happening there.

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So this this is us tripping and falling into our disjunctures, we fell well, I don't think I landed quite so hard as Ron did it, because I was only, you know, providing care to 4 or 5 people at a time, not the whole country.

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and I appreciate that ron to Head

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had experienced this first, and I followed on shortly after with this feeling, and so we were able to process that on on a

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on a journey to give up.

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So this is really the. This is our discovery. This is our trip and fall. And had we not used I a you, seen those things with the Ieis, our research would have continued to perpetuate the discourses, the dominant. He domines the priorities of new public management, and we would have just shred up the same old shit. We would have gone. This is so brilliant.

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because now we're going to just do it a little bit better. You know, here's how the nurses just need to work a little bit harder.

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Focus on these numbers a little bit more, you know. So

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we

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became uncaptured through the process of doing, i. E. And I suppose the implications that we're suggesting are there for the researchers are that

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that this is probably.

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and one way or another, something that you will experience in the course of doing, ie. Research. And this makes me think of of Frank with the social workers in in that junior that he took them on to the and go home.

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See what you were doing. Can you see that? Yeah.

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So what are the implications for? I? You want to talk to this.

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So I mean you. Only you don't have to read very far into, i. E.

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To realize that

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discomfort is

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something we're looking for than I you like we're trying to get to a place where things need to change. Therefore discomfort. What what we anticipated, what we hadn't disappointed when we started was the level of discomfort for the reception. We're okay with everybody else being uncomfortable, not okay with being uncomfortable.

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So this particular slide when we got to, we're making this presentation we're like. So what? Just so, what about this? The so what is as research is going in?

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It's likely there'll be a point in your research somewhere where you're uncomfortable, and the degree of discomfort, I guess, depends on what you're in

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what you are investigating and how engaged

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you are in the machinery of that investigation.

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and that it's important. We talk about that, I think, because we do then have to reposition ourselves and redirect ourselves. And the research based on that discomfort. But also what we've really got out of this week and and are thankful for is this

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developing conversation about our opportunities to operate from within.

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So, as we've discussed our our opportunities to burn down, all of it is very limited.

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but our opportunities to all to use the elbowsome space, you know, on the terrain, and somebody else talked about margins. So that's where now we can start to

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and

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continue our own work of trying to find those spaces for resistance and those spaces for helping other people see what we can now see. and also to to continue the work of

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questioning, challenging.

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you know, professionally and with good empirical argument. To say, this thing you think is happening

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is also doing these things, you know. So I I don't want to leave this session with. Is you thinking that the whole no-staffing strategy is a bomb, that we should just take you out to see and get rid of it. It's not this achieved some really fantastic things like it's not a wholly negative

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and construction. but it's accomplishing things that we never intended. And I think

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part of our work as i. E. See the ability to help others see that there are other things being accomplished here that are

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counter to our intentions

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if you want to say anything else.

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Yeah, I mean the other. The other brilliant comment was about the cheeky bureaucracy.

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and I think that might have been another one from all. But yes, just

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that. This is a this is a good thing to find this discomfort, because that is where the change rests right in

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challenging that finding. And

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and, as we all know, we have really beautiful empirical data that we can take people on that story, that journey. To say, here's how we are here. So it's really undeniable. at a at a big scale. so I mean, Rnda, you you sort of had Ministry of Health legal Conversations, and I mean minus. I'm still just sort of starting to find my space to now disrupt. I'm finding my margins and

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and seeing where they sit. But yeah, this is, this is not a wholly bad thing. This is good.

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but it doesn't feel good.

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doesn't at the time

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how to out of

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how I am doing this elbowing and mansion finding stuff is with Ph. D. Student, my Phd students who are using I

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so rather than setting them off down the same path that I went down and having them crashed and boom, which I don't want to happen.

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It's recognition. And I think this comes back to your.

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to your mountain, just to find another path. So Some of that is directing. So that situated intelligence that I talked about in my previous session.

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I've got a student who's

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climbing mountain using that, and I've got another one who is overtly declaring that nurses operating the hospital after hours are using new public management tools

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that come from up here, and then they translate them into a different form and use them in these ways.

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still climbing the mountain, and I'm still getting students to help me find them out. But we're just taking a slightly less

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captured road.

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Yeah.

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let me know you

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wonderful. Thank you. Rachel and Rhonda and I do also recall those times when they went.

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What's going on here? wonderful to hear those disjunctures!

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We'll move on now to Suzanne. So this is where I escape.

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and I stop sharing.

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and

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Suzanne can now share share your screen.

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I

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and I know Suzanne was having some slight technical issues a little earlier. So so I'm not sure how they're

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you are on mute at the moment, Susan.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I'm trying to see if I can share it with

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looking good.

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Suzanne Vaughan: You got it.

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Yay.

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Suzanne Vaughan: okay. Oh, good morning to you.

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That looks fabulous, and we can see the lovely cactus. Well, good that I it would work. And I was getting quite nervous here. And how horrible when technology doesn't work, isn't it? So? Now, if you go to slash

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and from beginning.

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Suzanne Vaughan: okay. So I unfortunately, I cannot get now, and you got my memory off.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Oh, my! But I can't get to my video. So can we stay with just a solid.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I'm afraid to do anything here. Okay, okay, okay, I want to. I. It's late afternoon here and about 43°C.

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Suzanne Vaughan: And so I present a picture here, beginning

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Suzanne Vaughan: Phoenix, where I live, Arizona, and that's Laura. are just now blooming in the heat of our summer. June is always the very hottest month.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Okay, so

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Suzanne Vaughan: my presentation today is focused and was sparked, of course, by concern. Some questions about writing and publishing, i. E.

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Suzanne Vaughan: That

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Suzanne Vaughan: new ideas have talked about. But also it's been a topic of conversation during several sessions. that I've been able to zoom into

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Suzanne Vaughan:  So I first want to start off with some some thoughts about this and

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Suzanne Vaughan: all right. From the very first time in 1987, when I've read everyday world was problematic. And on my screen you can see my

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Suzanne Vaughan: ripped up books and they are. There's notes that are so much as underw. Okay.

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Suzanne Vaughan: But what my thoughts are is that

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Suzanne Vaughan: really we reading Chapter 4 and 5 on institutional electronography and the 5, of course, on

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Suzanne Vaughan: research in the everyday is problematic. And then also reading Dorothy's chapter in Chapter 3 on the Ontology of ie.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Along with

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Suzanne Vaughan: the Little hero.

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Suzanne Vaughan: or small figure out diagram are fundamental to our understanding of doing id, but also writing. I I think they are very, very important.

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Suzanne Vaughan:  it opens up for me as I. We read over and over again,

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Suzanne Vaughan: you know the really expansive framework that ie. Follows and it opens new contactses, new timeframes, overlapping institutional complexes.

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Suzanne Vaughan: useful other useful conceptual frameworks of concepts and other methodological tools.

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Suzanne Vaughan: And it is in my practice of doing id. but also reviewing Id.

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Suzanne Vaughan: editing volumes of institutional ethnography that I keep these chapters in.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Yeah, you know, at close hand. Let's just put it that way.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Okay, because I do think this expansive nature is very, very important into our doing. Man writing. I

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Suzanne Vaughan: okay. Now

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Suzanne Vaughan: I'll tell you my first

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experiences

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Suzanne Vaughan: tried to publish. I.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I struggled, my colleague and I struggled so much, trying to publish our research.

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Suzanne Vaughan: We got

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Suzanne Vaughan: responses from Charlotte articles, our journal editors and reviewer. This is not qualitative research nor fairness research that we in fact, support

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Suzanne Vaughan:  But from proposals. This is a bunch of Marxist jargon. And from book proposals. Often we people would say, this is what social science, this is humanities. You better try a different then you are absolutely.

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Suzanne Vaughan: But what we did is struggle to find out. But

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Suzanne Vaughan: and

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Suzanne Vaughan: we saw now various outlaws as I've outlined in this this second slide here.

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Suzanne Vaughan: and it's about writing critical

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Suzanne Vaughan: an analysis of literature on a research topic, not about my not focused on, ie. But focused on a topic. We did this, for example, with housing studies. We did this with the area of social change. We did this with the area of

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Suzanne Vaughan: oral history, and

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Suzanne Vaughan: we were able to publish. These are sort of literature reviews

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Suzanne Vaughan: with an I. Okay.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Next, We sought out an investigated

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Suzanne Vaughan: what editors were publishing in their journals

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Suzanne Vaughan: for? on on specific.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Okay? And

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Suzanne Vaughan: we accomplished, for example. And one it. It wasn't

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Suzanne Vaughan: the editor in the journal that you those years we're focused on aging.

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Suzanne Vaughan: And so we crafted a a specific article on older women living alone, because we notice that, in fact,

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Suzanne Vaughan: the articles excluded within the subjects.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Another instance, urban sociology, and urban sociologist was editor, and they had published a lot of quantitative articles under her editorship.

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Suzanne Vaughan: we send an article using institutional ethnography, not with equations, not with tables, but with images of historical documents. She published it.

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Suzanne Vaughan: The editors like that possibility.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Another venue or outlet for ie. Research, are special issues.

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Suzanne Vaughan: on id, and there's been a number of them. and I think the possibilities for a lot more.

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Suzanne Vaughan: but also on specific topics. Just the other day I thought an announcement about

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Suzanne Vaughan: a special issue on social justice. You know they were open to all sorts of

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Suzanne Vaughan: of approaches, a great out for institutional ethnography.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Finally, we started organizing conferences, workshops and panels and conferences

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Suzanne Vaughan: at conferences to spark the publication of institutional ostenography, much as Dorothy and Allison did with under new public management.

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Suzanne Vaughan: and our most recent was, our most recent publication, or block edited volume focuses in on

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Suzanne Vaughan: a panel we organize. That is a 4 years ago, basically on the future of I where where we should go.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Okay, now.

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Suzanne Vaughan: after looking at various outlets.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I I would say that publishing I is getting your hands, getting your paper and hands up the reviewers. And now I've listed a couple of

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Suzanne Vaughan: important carriers about

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Suzanne Vaughan: how your paper should be handed to an editor, a reviewer.

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Suzanne Vaughan: But I want you to remember that the audience are, is is the reviewer, and what you really want to do is right to

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Suzanne Vaughan: the review, or as your audience. Okay.

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Suzanne Vaughan: so how you go about to? All right. So my first suggestion for people trying to translate their research project into

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Suzanne Vaughan: journal article, or whatever is to, in fact, select the wedge of your research.

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Suzanne Vaughan: and here I've illustrated one of the wet as we took. This is on retirement housing, and they will see that. what we did is we work from that? We started from the work women did. Older women did

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Suzanne Vaughan: around finding and moving to retirement housing. And then we carried that wedge up into this complex of institutional relations. So my first thing is.

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Suzanne Vaughan: you cannot publish a whole institutional ethnography in an article or journal. You always have so much data.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Select the wet, and there are multiple audiences. You can pitch different parts of your research to there are different not on like different audiences, but different venues. different topics whatever.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Alright. The next thing I suggest is that people writing

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Suzanne Vaughan: for papers.

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Suzanne Vaughan: for journal articles or chapters is that they distinguish between what is called logic and use and reconstructed logic.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Right? You cannot publish.

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Suzanne Vaughan: What I want to say is dis dissertation. Follow up the sort of idealized research process. Hey? Review of literature from there, you know the research questions to, you know, etc. All right. That's the logic in use.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Articles and chapters

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Suzanne Vaughan: rather focus on reconstructed logic in essence. What you are trying to do is to

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Suzanne Vaughan: examine. Okay.

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Suzanne Vaughan:  basically that and focus your readers toward the puzzle you're trying to unfold.

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Suzanne Vaughan: All right, the next slide. use of concepts. Okay? And ie. And this might be somewhat controversial.

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Suzanne Vaughan: alright in dissertation. This proposals, yeah, you have definition. You have full explanation of, I. You devote long sections to laying out, i. E. Framework. You write You do need to write an everyday arguments or everyday language, but but

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Suzanne Vaughan: those that that everyday language is often Now sort of you

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Suzanne Vaughan: what your argument is is framed in terms of concepts and findings. The journal articles my suggestion to use them sparingly and sometimes never.

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Suzanne Vaughan: You should devote only maybe a paragraph or 2 to explaining i. E.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Or paragraph or or 2 in terms of a concept that is your analytical focus again, right? Simply everyday language about what is happening in the situation, particularly when presenting your discoveries.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Next.

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Suzanne Vaughan: hardest part of writing institutional. That's not a fee even for me. He has been the ruling relations.

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Suzanne Vaughan: But I want to tell you that

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Suzanne Vaughan: what you should do is write in these very thick descriptions of people's activities that work they're doing with others, how they work and talk.

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Suzanne Vaughan: and text, comes into their work, how their work is organized by people working elsewhere and at different times

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Suzanne Vaughan: to portly include empirical details from interviews, from field notes, images of text.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I reminded of one eastwards a chapter, she wrote, where she starts out in her field that's describing

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Suzanne Vaughan: her

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Suzanne Vaughan: transit from a hotel to a conference of the UN. On climate change.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I felt like

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Suzanne Vaughan: I was beside her. I could tell what she was seeing. It was wonderful.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Make sure, also, that you tell your reader how to what to look at and how to look at in a quote, an observation or a tax.

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Suzanne Vaughan: Okay?

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Suzanne Vaughan: Finally.

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Suzanne Vaughan: my advice is to take reviewers and editors comment seriously. They're they're your audience.

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Suzanne Vaughan: respond to all the questions and comments. Meet the reviewers where they are and help them move from

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Suzanne Vaughan: their framework to premises that, and the ontology and framework of institutional ethnography.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I assume that if your reviewer tells you things that are you, are.

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Suzanne Vaughan: they misunderstand what you're saying, I always assume that I must correct that writing. I have not done a good job of it.

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Suzanne Vaughan: All right. Inner and dialogue can engage in dialogue with an editor and reviewer through response, even if it requires link the par box.

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Suzanne Vaughan: If a reviewer tells you this is not a ie. Then

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Suzanne Vaughan: lay out for that for that reviewer. What your reasoning and thinking is.

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Suzanne Vaughan: It does happen, and you need to be able to respond to the reviewer by playing out your reasoning

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Suzanne Vaughan: all right. Finally.

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Suzanne Vaughan: keep the little hero in view in your writing. I've taken this from Liza Mccoy, who talked about

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Suzanne Vaughan: keep the institution and view

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Suzanne Vaughan: But I do think it's very, very important to keep this little viewer little hero in and view

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in terms of both your writing and thinking

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Suzanne Vaughan:  in essence, keeping that little hero diagram and few

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Suzanne Vaughan:  based on a framework for the kinds of weekly linkages. Okay, that we or that we write about

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Suzanne Vaughan: okay

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Suzanne Vaughan: that are embedded and work organizations in that everyday world.

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Suzanne Vaughan: It is also shows how about little heroes work? It's tied to quit discourses which circulate locally.

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Suzanne Vaughan: but are often created by other people doing work in a wide world array of locations. At one it announces the discoveries

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Suzanne Vaughan: in essence that are just. Pufferies are for people.

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Suzanne Vaughan: I do. This is the book that is coming out this month.

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Suzanne Vaughan: a picture of it where and that

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Suzanne Vaughan: these I scholars talk about. It's promise.

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Suzanne Vaughan: basically, with this idea of the little hero and view

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Suzanne Vaughan: and that's under my presentation. And I thank you very much.

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Thank you so much, Suzanne. That was a a master class in publication. I'm an chief editor of a small nursing journal in practice, and those messages about writing for the reviewer. If the reviewer says something, that's because you've not explained it properly. So absolute masterclass. Thank you so much for that and for signing on when it's extraordinarily hot.

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and no doubt we'll kind of come back to questions and some discussion at the end. So next we have gelts. Who's from

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Denmark? shelter you there.

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Yeah. And if you could start loading up and and Jelt is going to present on I and governmentality studies of power.

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Thank you so much.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: Yeah.

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please share. Yes, please.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: Well.

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 not there yet. Sharing is not happening yet.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: The

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there you go that's coming on board. There we go.

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Oh, I got to a cool of you. And then Suzanne's desert view. Can you see it?

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Kjeld Høgsbro: Well, it is about ie. And governmentality because of follow this tradition, so that they grew up in 19 and spread their influence and social in sociology. And the question is, if they are very much in. Sometimes I I was puzzled. But some of the studies in within the governmentality studies where

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Kjeld Høgsbro: we're quite familiar to, i. E. And actually would be, I think

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Kjeld Høgsbro: could be presented in an ie. Session as well.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: but I'm also going to to talk a little about the question of theory as a supplement to you and integrate it in the in, in certain ways

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Kjeld Høgsbro: studies. So

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Kjeld Høgsbro: so this is what I'm going to do.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: And

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Kjeld Høgsbro: the first slide I'll take something from the discussions in the ie. network and the Nordic.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and I'll start with the quotation from Vita back

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Kjeld Høgsbro: which is in the beginning of this edited book that is called the Institutional Innocence in the Nordic region, where she writes the full a start. It seems as if the perceived anti theoretical approach, if I

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Kjeld Høgsbro: needs to be deconstructed and an ie. Approach that is hooked up to social or physical theory to be outlined hopefully this, if it, if mine can contribute to a further theoretical discussions within and between the disciplines of ie. And sociology.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and it it links to a quotation from Dorothy when she writes in opening up an institutional complex, it's participates in institutional innocence. More general discoveries of the workings of the institutions and the ruling relations in contemporary Western society and veto. Back's argument is.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: but if we want to use the specific empirical case studies to say something general about modern institutions, and thus make them relevant for other than the directly involved. Then we must get into a dialogue with social optical theory.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: So, accordingly, the chapters of the edited book about institutionally, if not for a field, and all the gradient addresses different theoretical approaches which might be

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Kjeld Høgsbro: relevant for ie. Investigation. And I'll

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Kjeld Høgsbro: illustrate a. And so

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Kjeld Høgsbro: it my strategy, when thinking of of the theoretical er traditions within what I would call the applied so solid

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Kjeld Høgsbro: action research is to keep the main and unique ambition in, ie. To focus, step by step on what is really happening

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Kjeld Høgsbro: in the relation between people and probation offices and public services.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: report and document. How information is transferred is transformed and delivered from the one level to the other in the institutional complex, and the loops and feedback which characterize the action.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and that is really what we have to to remain to keep as the call of ie. As I see.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: but to realize that some people sometimes people act on the into under the influence of ruling discourses rather than strictly following the ruling text.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: All that interpretation, reception of the text is influenced by the professional discourses in which they are socialized to refer to as dominating terms of references, and that is also something that is used within what we can today called classic institutional and notography.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and and to keep the ie. Ambition to stick to the empirical finance

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and not quickly jump to conclusions which confirm the theory, and thus end up with answers already included in the questions, as Dorothy writes in.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: but at the same time acknowledged that different social optimal theories have 2 important functions in the analytical process.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: It makes you aware, first of all, it makes you aware of aspects you might otherwise forget to see. It is different ways of seeing.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: like Dorothy's, express it. But it that is something we often forget when we talk about sociological theories, that it just also open your eyes to see something that you would

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Kjeld Høgsbro: not be aware if you want inspired by.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and in the end, when or he has an ambition to contribute to the general understanding of long institution. This general understanding will have the form as a search of aical theory.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and I don't think we can explain a escape it, and in this full it will contradict, challenge, contribute to or confirm other theoretical approaches.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: But I haven't

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Kjeld Høgsbro: an approach coming from from

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Kjeld Høgsbro:  from other forms of applied sociology, not to privilege one theory, but to to look at how the logical theories

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Kjeld Høgsbro: a

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Kjeld Høgsbro: makes you aware of different important aspects of social reality.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: I can in this effort to to, to to integrate all the traditions in the ie. from the Nordic discussion

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Kjeld Høgsbro: first of all, and what I think is very important myself is the the tradition for phenomenology is stemming from from ample suits

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and his concept of life world with with. And here Doris is a little v to me

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Kjeld Høgsbro: about her relation to to this tradition, but I think it is important to understand

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Kjeld Høgsbro: that people's life worlds are very different. And sometimes, when you're studying

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Kjeld Høgsbro: tribes in Ghana or the mangrove forest, or a pass in life with the Board of Amazon as we have peeped into it in this week, we have to acknowledge that those life will is so different from our own, that we can only peep into it.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and they try to get an idea of what is going on, and the translation of

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Kjeld Høgsbro: what they experience and and how they are as

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Kjeld Høgsbro: Mentioned as a world view of the the other

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and world experience realities and the world of you comes together and Forbes, the life world of of people

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Kjeld Høgsbro: The next contribution I'll mention is the resistance status, where we have an ongoing discussion right now, and it makes you aware that there are some kind of resistance every day resistance that are silent

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Kjeld Høgsbro: and and the has an enormous support influence. On the way people citizens are meeting the probational offices and the frontline professionals.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: So they are they. It is

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Kjeld Høgsbro: a different kind of silent resistance as not opening envelopes. Not looking into the reception they've got. Not listening to to what the pro professional says. And so well, it's it's it. Those

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Kjeld Høgsbro: forms of everyday and resistance really have a great influence on what is going on in the institutions.

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Kjeld Høgsbro: And the next contributions with which we have discussed is the actor network theory, and though it seems artificial for some, ie. research is to to look at at this as an actor.

369
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Kjeld Høgsbro: The point is in this theory that

370
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Kjeld Høgsbro: artifacts that from my professionals use, for example, in the whole architecture, have a life. When you buy a disc and a computer. They have a life for some years before you can afford to buy a new one. So the from this.

371
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Kjeld Høgsbro: the desk, the architecture, the computer, and so on, symbolize the power structure in the room and in the sitting. And when people are coming into this room.

372
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Kjeld Høgsbro: depending on the all, for, say, life, world, or everyday life, they will experience this simple, I, the same politic, a message of the power they are confronted with.

373
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Kjeld Høgsbro: So so it. It must be where you know up services observations that these kind of things and equipments and architecture have an a influence of what is going on

374
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Kjeld Høgsbro: now when coming to a governmentality. and there's a wonderful quotation from Mitchell Deal when he tries to to to capture the the the sense of governmentality studies.

375
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Kjeld Høgsbro: it is the salt. Governmentality is a sold involved in practices of government

376
00:50:33.160 --> 00:50:38.119
Kjeld Høgsbro: is collective and relatively taken for granted.

377
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Kjeld Høgsbro: and it is a way we think about exercising authority, draws upon the theories, ideas, philosophies, and forms of knowledge that are a part of our social and come to, products.

378
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So

379
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Kjeld Høgsbro: if we look at the how the governmentality might influence what we are in the the institutions we are investigating.

380
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Kjeld Høgsbro: we can see that they have an influence on different level. It might be, for example, new public, the implementation of new public management, where we have studies of how they are implemented differently in different national context.

381
00:51:27.520 --> 00:51:50.590
Kjeld Høgsbro: So the the first level is how these global discourses have an influence on the governance in the specific national context. And this is not enough, because the discourse is also a have an influence on the conduct conduct

382
00:51:50.630 --> 00:52:06.880
Kjeld Høgsbro: we we have to to look into, and see the how people in the agencies accept or don't accept some premises from you public management.

383
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Kjeld Høgsbro: So some of the elements are taken out because it is not relevant for the agency in the context. It is all so this filtering of international discourses an aspect of what we are studying.

384
00:52:28.700 --> 00:52:36.000
Kjeld Høgsbro: And the then the another level is that even the front line professional

385
00:52:36.040 --> 00:52:49.999
Kjeld Høgsbro: are sorting these elements in government mentality. Some interventions are legitimate in the local context, and some others are not

386
00:52:50.120 --> 00:52:57.260
Kjeld Høgsbro: A and the the governmentality in different national contracts are very difficult.

387
00:52:57.490 --> 00:53:07.540
Kjeld Høgsbro: For example, this might be an Nqgo trying to intervene in the conditions for

388
00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:20.350
Kjeld Høgsbro: for women and refugee camps in the in the Ethiopia which I've had the most of seats is about that.

389
00:53:20.410 --> 00:53:41.130
Kjeld Høgsbro: and it it, then it's confronted with professionals who have a 2 wives, for example, which is prohibited in the discourse of the in, in the and and at the same time they cannot accept homosexual.

390
00:53:41.130 --> 00:53:57.060
Kjeld Høgsbro: let's say, because it's forbidden in in this country, and they don't, they? They can't accept it. So it it it gives them a dilemma, and it's sort of a messages they are doing. They are

391
00:53:57.200 --> 00:54:08.989
Kjeld Høgsbro: coming up with in the interaction and education of local citizens in these refugee camps.

392
00:54:09.410 --> 00:54:10.600
So.

393
00:54:11.660 --> 00:54:28.369
Kjeld Høgsbro: and in the end also, citizens have an idea. And that is the point in governmentality studies to look how citizens regard something as legitimate

394
00:54:28.370 --> 00:54:43.050
Kjeld Høgsbro: forms of governance and principles, and something is not legitimate. And this also links to to to the resistance

395
00:54:43.820 --> 00:54:44.890
so.

396
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:48.369
Kjeld Høgsbro: and and.

397
00:54:48.500 --> 00:55:09.099
Kjeld Høgsbro: for example, when when looking at the Npm governance in Npm is global global discourse, generally accepted since 1,995 as a main reference for reform all over the world, and it is regarded as a rational way of doing it in the Western world.

398
00:55:09.160 --> 00:55:13.130
Kjeld Høgsbro: and it is implemented all over the world.

399
00:55:13.450 --> 00:55:37.430
Kjeld Høgsbro: But in specific studies of the implementation of Npm and different countries, governmentality studies show considerable differences in a coldness with national political discourses and cultural premises for governance. So, and the same is the case with the the work that this calls it is

400
00:55:37.430 --> 00:56:01.350
Kjeld Høgsbro: likely to be accepted as a main reference for social policy in Western countries, Since the middle of the nineties. But God mentality. St. This shows that the rhetoric behind which legitimate legitimize the welfare Oriented initiatives differ from the one country to the other.

401
00:56:01.540 --> 00:56:13.989
Kjeld Høgsbro: and the discourse on different levels of the institutional complex differs in accordance with the concrete experience of the involved professionals and uses.

402
00:56:14.150 --> 00:56:40.700
Kjeld Høgsbro: So this is not an effort to to to put down certain theories to, to to, ie. And reduce, ie. To test hypothesis, From those different theories? It is much more, and it to use them as ways of seeing and

403
00:56:40.770 --> 00:56:46.009
Kjeld Høgsbro: case, being being aware of the different retail

404
00:56:46.090 --> 00:56:53.110
realities. So all right, just to just a more minutes also. Thank you.

405
00:56:53.240 --> 00:56:56.030
How many minutes? Well, maybe 2.

406
00:56:56.250 --> 00:57:13.759
Kjeld Høgsbro: So, well, okay. So here you can see the the circle of a discourses in the Danish context. where the norms and regulating text actually stems from

407
00:57:13.770 --> 00:57:35.240
Kjeld Høgsbro: complex. K, did that make a struggle between different, accepted it discourses and Npm. These calls a rehabilitation, discourse. Recovery is called self health. This course by medical discourse and systematic reviews and research. So

408
00:57:35.260 --> 00:57:57.260
Kjeld Høgsbro: from this. The governance, Falls different texts. It gets down the line to to to the professional practice, but before it comes to that, it has it in has something intentions, but it also,

409
00:57:57.260 --> 00:58:11.330
Kjeld Høgsbro: Received in certain ways under the influence of professional experience. And together this comes. This, creates a certain professional action

410
00:58:11.350 --> 00:58:30.369
Kjeld Høgsbro: that has a new back to the professional experience and develop the professional discourses. And then we have another circle up on the governmental level. And I have made observations on all these levels to see how it works.

411
00:58:30.580 --> 00:58:44.840
Kjeld Høgsbro: And the another example is when you're going to residential homes where the interaction between professionals and the residents. The residents are more stable.

412
00:58:44.860 --> 00:58:47.810
Kjeld Høgsbro: and for a long time?

413
00:58:47.870 --> 00:59:00.930
Kjeld Høgsbro: And what is going on here is it's not a process, but it's a stable situation on to the influence of the what target group

414
00:59:00.930 --> 00:59:24.890
Kjeld Høgsbro: does it have this residential home? And how is it is conducted, and how this forms the interaction between the 2 levels, and it is influenced by the turn of slope. What is happening on the trans local field supply resources, referral and assessments and inspections accreditation

415
00:59:24.910 --> 00:59:46.399
Kjeld Høgsbro:  their regional demands and local demands, and all together. This is also on the dig in front of the very trans local field about legislation, institutional structure and governmentality. Yeah, thank you for listening.

416
00:59:51.560 --> 00:59:59.649
Thank you so much, Jelt. And you know, it's it's lovely, interesting stuff. We could go on forever. But I'm I'm keen to hear from

417
00:59:59.680 --> 01:00:12.950
our last 2 speakers, and to have some time for for discussion, but wonderful, wonderful ideas there for us to follow through. Okay, I'm going to welcome our last

418
01:00:13.830 --> 01:00:15.039
lost

419
01:00:15.150 --> 01:00:17.260
guests.

420
01:00:17.860 --> 01:00:23.370
I'm going to get you to just you yeah. And figure that's the best. Right? I just

421
01:00:23.390 --> 01:00:24.680
so.

422
01:00:25.730 --> 01:00:29.580
janine Andary, disconnect

423
01:00:29.750 --> 01:00:36.180
lovely Merida. Sorry. And they're going to talk about getting the data right and exploration of activism.

424
01:00:36.210 --> 01:00:43.769
The institution in the implementation of a national funding model for students with disability.

425
01:00:44.220 --> 01:00:50.770
and they're from Queensland, which is slightly warmer than it is probably here. So welcome. Thank you.

426
01:00:52.810 --> 01:01:14.589
Thank you and thank you to the previous presenters as well. We are going to talk a little bit different to what we had planned in our abstract, because we're in a different session to we originally submitted to. So we thought, this is a really nice opportunity for us to I guess, lay out some of the problems that we've been more challenges seeing in education.

427
01:01:14.850 --> 01:01:32.490
in conducting institutional ethnography and your thoughts and input on, perhaps where we go from here. so I'm sorry for the people online, but I'm going to ask a people here just to take a moment to think about having come to the conference every day.

428
01:01:32.500 --> 01:01:41.149
walked in. Think of your stories. And have you noticed that you've walked past a building with a big Pwc. Up the top of it

429
01:01:41.190 --> 01:01:49.860
some people might have, so maybe you haven't. But I guess our problem is

430
01:01:50.240 --> 01:01:53.300
no. Why am I not paying for it? Here?

431
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:56.359
I'll just click

432
01:01:57.530 --> 01:02:12.980
I, there we go! Oh, I haven't done my acknowledgment of country. I'm so sorry. Yes, we do acknowledge the we are injury people, and also the terrible and Yoga are the lands where Janita may live and where the research was conducted that we're presenting today.

433
01:02:13.040 --> 01:02:29.489
and of course, that these lands were never seeded, and we pay our respect to elders, past, present, and emerging. And we know that these lines have always been places of education, and we want to walk gently and respectfully together on these lands.

434
01:02:31.780 --> 01:02:35.620
So yes, going back to our Pwc story, I guess

435
01:02:35.630 --> 01:02:40.689
they are only present out there, and they certainly are in education as well.

436
01:02:40.700 --> 01:03:06.889
We have a very different form of policy making that has emerged over the last, perhaps a decade, and following on from Keld's discussion, there. There's I guess global policy ensemble into which these multinational consultancies and corporations have really embedded themselves and spread their tentacles. They now are part of policy making.

437
01:03:07.010 --> 01:03:23.790
They are part of policy delivery. And then they also review how successful policies are. They tell us what the problems are, where we even need policies. So we walk past these buildings. They are there. We don't always notice them.

438
01:03:23.830 --> 01:03:36.129
and for me, teaching in the master of education, I make up my little mission, every semester to ask our school principals and our teachers who are enrolled.

439
01:03:36.470 --> 01:04:03.329
who conduct the work that Janine's about to talk to you about. If they're aware that Pwc. Is involved at all in the particular policy that you'll hear about, and almost all of them say No, even though, as Janine will show you from her really terrific doctoral research. They are instrumental in what happens in the everyday work of teachers and in the funding that students with disabilities. Get in Australian schooling.

440
01:04:03.510 --> 01:04:14.339
So Janine's going to talk to you about her project. And then we're going to have a little discussion with you hopefully about doing institutional ethnography and new times, where

441
01:04:14.600 --> 01:04:19.260
perhaps we can't access participants. And we can't access texts

442
01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:36.620
in large part because of Pwc, and we just popped some screenshots in just from the past week alone, since we've been down in Melbourne about the total lack of transparency that exists around these kinds of institutions.

443
01:04:37.520 --> 01:04:44.419
Yeah, I mean, it's it's shocking. And I think it gives a a flavor for what's to. Gen means to discuss.

444
01:04:45.980 --> 01:04:57.919
Thanks, Narrator. And I'm actually just going to do a really quick cooks tour of my research project just so that you get an idea and some framing around it, but really keen on the conversation afterwards.

445
01:04:58.160 --> 01:05:19.710
So the nationally consistent collection of data on school students with disability. The Ncd is was born because Australia has complex governance arrangements around our students with disability were identified and funded, so each State and Territory had their own way of doing it, and this was a way of bringing a unified way of looking at

446
01:05:19.900 --> 01:05:32.950
how students get identified and how they get funded. sitting behind. That is a commitment to the Oecd to identify which students get funded, and and what they what that looks like. So Australia is about to meet that commitment now.

447
01:05:34.130 --> 01:06:00.039
Oh, I've gone backwards. So this is there we go, so as narrow to pointed out. Pwc. Are very involved. So in 2,011 the Australian Government contracted this Pwc. To do a scoping study about the policy that we now need around identifying students with disability. Pwc, consulted a group called the Joint Working Group. That's a a secret group we can't get. I couldn't get any documents. It's

448
01:06:00.040 --> 01:06:20.120
It's so heavily reducted you can't read it. So you don't actually know who was part of the joint working group. But because of my insider knowledge I started and the work that I generally do during the day I started to work out who was part of this group, and they were identified generally, people with power. No classroom teachers.

449
01:06:20.120 --> 01:06:34.370
nobody working in schools but sitting at systems level managing how who gets in and who gets out. So the joint working group made some decisions with Pwc. About how this was going to look, what we needed and how we were going to make it operate.

450
01:06:36.730 --> 01:07:04.819
But how do I come to this problem? So I'm I work in work in an education sector. And I got a phone call from a principal named Nick, who was about to enroll a young boy named Ben, and Ben's mother had come to the school and said, a couple of schools have said, No, because he's got complex needs. We're about to start on this new policy. Nick rang and said, I need some help about identifying. What resources and support do we need to make Ben's first day at school work? Well.

451
01:07:05.080 --> 01:07:07.560
I thought, you beauty, I'm on to that.

452
01:07:07.580 --> 01:07:20.090
So it was a really lovely conversation. But what we also realized is the language. Around, what resources do you need? Had been used to exclude Ben from previous schools, so that all of that's going on as well.

453
01:07:21.600 --> 01:07:22.780
That's it.

454
01:07:23.870 --> 01:07:26.819
No, it's the other side, it's with the reverse.

455
01:07:27.130 --> 01:07:48.570
So I started wondering then around how official texts are designed to support students can be used to it also used to exclude. And then and then, as I was having this conversation with the principal about, what does this new Ncd really look like? So we've got the the existing state model which we still had to attend to. And this new model that was coming through.

456
01:07:48.570 --> 01:08:04.510
and I immediately went. This is going to be a lot of work for teachers. What does that really mean? And nobody had talked to me, and I worked in schools with teachers. So nobody was talking to teachers about this, about what their work was about to be and what it was going to look like. So how is this all going to happen

457
01:08:04.730 --> 01:08:30.260
all the while? I was also very aware that. I'm going to be a little bit derogatory because I went my friends at the time. The clients from Pwc. Were all turning up to talk to schools, and these young adults graduates. The boys were in navy blue suits with brown shoes with a laptop, and the girls looked like they just walked out of a Jackie home dress shop, and they all look exactly the same. And they had scripts, and they were talking to teachers

458
01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:38.099
and talking to very experienced teachers about their work. And these were graduates in engineering accounting.

459
01:08:38.100 --> 01:08:52.030
They were actuaries. Some of them were healthcare. None of them were in education, but they had a script, and they were taking information back to Pwc. To design this policy, and I was wondering how all of that was going to work.

460
01:08:53.430 --> 01:08:58.610
But Ben actually also needs adjustments that's in the classroom. And how is this teacher going to do that?

461
01:08:58.790 --> 01:09:10.209
So this is all about what was going to happen. So some guiding questions interested in how the work was going to be coordinated, interested in the workflow and interested in the workflow between the systems.

462
01:09:12.750 --> 01:09:33.929
So what did I do? I ended up talking to 27 people and I'm not going to go into all the detail around how that all happens, because you all know that. But what was really interesting is who didn't talk to me is what I really wanted to highlight. So I put an ethics application into the Queensland Government Department of Education. They sat on it for 6 months.

463
01:09:33.940 --> 01:10:00.570
then I got a phone call asking if I would withdraw my application for ethics to do the research. I'd already gathered data from other education sectors. And I come on. Please explain why. for me to withdraw the application. That meant there wasn't a record of the application being put into their documents. So, therefore, there was no record of this application. So, therefore, that we didn't actually have to pretend this research was happening. So they said No, without saying No.

464
01:10:00.570 --> 01:10:12.410
and pwc, just. I made lots of approaches to them, and they just were not willing to talk to me, so I would turn up to these meetings at schools and talk to these lovely young people dressed in their suits.

465
01:10:12.410 --> 01:10:31.709
But it wasn't in the script to talk to somebody from outside, and that would really through them. Occasionally you get a tidbit. But you know, right down to when you leave this store, get petrol from this petrol station before you go to the airport. It was all scripted for them, it was so organised it was. It was just amazing to see.

466
01:10:31.710 --> 01:10:34.290
But so yeah, you get a bit of a

467
01:10:34.400 --> 01:10:42.009
but let me walk you to the car. What are you going to do with this information? So. But that's part of it was really tricky to get information. So

468
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who I talk to is important, but who I didn't talk to through the research is equally important.

469
01:10:50.270 --> 01:11:05.110
So this is kind of what it looked like. and I won't go into too much detail. But Pwc. Permeated everything, and as we've identified. They designed the policy. They developed the resources for teachers. They tested the resources

470
01:11:05.140 --> 01:11:16.110
they've reviewed, the resources they provide feedback about the resources they design the website that. So every Australian school teacher uses. And now they're currently evaluating that portal.

471
01:11:16.330 --> 01:11:41.829
 and this was a lot of work for teachers that's not going to be so new for many of you. But what was really interesting, regardless of where you were in your career. The feedback from teachers was just overwhelmingly similar. And and I think that's really important, but none of these people were spoken to, they weren't heard, their voices weren't heard in any of this.

472
01:11:44.280 --> 01:12:13.610
 then we talk about how things get organized. So on you can see the color document that's an official document. But then in part of what we saw, too, is the way texts were taken up and the unofficial text, and this is what they are, every single person of 27 people. And I've since. I've probably talked to thousands of teachers about this now over time, and they all talk about the list. It's actually not an official text, but they all talk about the list, and everybody knows what that means. So this is a group of students.

473
01:12:13.610 --> 01:12:39.590
and the way funding is allocated is dependent on the level of adjustment of student is provided for support, and it's a retrospective payment. So you have to provide the adjustments. Submit that information to the to the Australian Government, and then they pay you the next year the adjustments that you have provided. So the power the really pressure to provide the evidence of the adjustments is enormous.

474
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:55.309
So there's a and so that generates a whole heap of new work as well. So the list permeated everything, and getting on the list was pretty clear. So once schools had ways and processes of getting kids onto the list.

475
01:12:55.310 --> 01:13:21.360
But what wasn't clear is, once you get on the list. Nobody actually knew how a kid got off the list. So you got on the list, and you were there forever. But you might not need educational adjustments next year. But you're still on the list, and that gets a really complicated arrangement. But it but it was really about making sure that there was evidence to support the decision to put a student on the list. And as a result of that, lots of perverse uses of data and student learning data comes into play.

476
01:13:23.400 --> 01:13:25.019
I'm going to hand off to another.

477
01:13:25.990 --> 01:13:26.949
Thank you.

478
01:13:27.280 --> 01:13:51.530
So yes, I think you'll agree to, and did really a terrific thesis. an amazing research. I think what she shown is that how small heroes in schools are doing so much work, and they're really carrying the the burden and stress of trying to make sure that they their students, get the funding needed for them to to access education on the same basis.

479
01:13:51.530 --> 01:14:06.389
And there was a lot of worry about you know, ensuring that the documentation that was required through this Pwc system was there so that they weren't going to lose any of that funding, because that was a really real risk.

480
01:14:06.390 --> 01:14:25.560
And I think, you know, something that we talked about a lot was realizing just how many people were captured within this system. We often have that focus on our small hero at the front line. But As Janine's work really showed, I'm just gonna skip over these so we can. Oh, no, I won't. Actually.

481
01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:38.480
we can see that the school principals were also extremely concerned about making sure that they didn't miss out on any funding for their school. So that meant making sure that evidence is there?

482
01:14:38.480 --> 01:14:56.270
that's a lot of time that's being spent in schools not focused on actually adjusting lessons and making classes better for students with disabilities, but documenting similar to what we had with the the presentations yesterday in terms of health.

483
01:14:56.890 --> 01:15:09.089
 so yes, there were schools that actually were at risk, and did lose significant amounts of money. So something, I think, that is

484
01:15:09.510 --> 01:15:20.419
again a real challenge for institutional ethnographers is that in the official text it does say that there are. There are no targets around disability funding.

485
01:15:20.440 --> 01:15:43.739
but through Janine's insider knowledge they clearly are. And when we look at at the kinds of talk that people are saying around data and not a not not anomalies. Sorry you can't say that. What? We see that you know that that kind of needed a case. If there is actually a target that data is being compared against. And that's what schools were

486
01:15:43.740 --> 01:15:59.039
up against. And you can see here there's really significant amounts of funding at stake there for individual schools and schools did lose significant amounts of funding if they didn't get the data right?

487
01:16:01.140 --> 01:16:27.420
Okay? So I suppose our questions for for all of us, as as as institutional ethnographers is, what do we do when we're working in institutions like this? So when the mountain has maybe shifted shape a little bit, and some of the techniques that we've used in the past and aren't going to provide us the path. They're kind of a path to know where we need to find a new path, I suppose, to do this

488
01:16:27.540 --> 01:16:31.459
type of inquiry. So

489
01:16:31.690 --> 01:16:39.419
Pwc's work in schools produces sequences of text and actions, as I think Janine's explained nicely to you.

490
01:16:39.450 --> 01:16:40.680
And

491
01:16:41.180 --> 01:16:58.289
but how do we trace those when we can't talk to people when we can't access tax? And of course we've got that additional problem of departments of education increasingly in Australia, not providing ethics approvals to researchers.

492
01:17:01.520 --> 01:17:27.599
So I suppose that those are our our provocations and our questions. And we'd love to to hear your thoughts about how we move forward. Given the the rise of these public-private partnerships, and I don't think it's exclusive to education where it is actually impossible. I know one of my colleagues has put in well over one. requests! And they're pretty much all denied.

493
01:17:27.630 --> 01:17:44.389
So we have these changing policiescapes. And we need that means we need to do things differently. Somehow we have policy hierarchies where those relations between governments and Edu businesses and 250

494
01:17:44.500 --> 01:18:02.309
government and philanthropy are really being redrawn. We have. you know, organizations like Pearson, who control a lot of what happens around the globe in education, and they are only expanding.

495
01:18:02.320 --> 01:18:26.259
 A few years ago a colleague part published a paper on News Corp, and how they've realized. It's actually, potentially more money in education than there is in in media. So they've all got their eye on moving themselves further and further into education. So I don't think this is going to go away anytime soon. So we're

496
01:18:26.310 --> 01:18:32.700
we'd like to really think seriously about how we do this work in new times. And

497
01:18:33.720 --> 01:18:35.299
just to give you a

498
01:18:35.430 --> 01:18:58.439
a sense of the problem. It's certainly not just about disability funding. It's from early childhood through to vocational education, prison schools, teacher education. So the teach for programs which have had Boston consulting group, etc. you know, in the in the background, it's really it's it's endless.

499
01:18:59.980 --> 01:19:29.709
 and then and then what do we do? Given the the rise in gatekeeping, where not only can we not access the the consultants and the Pwc. People in their their suits as well as the the higher level. I I suppose executives, but we can't even access teachers. So we want to tell stories. We can't tell stories because we can't actually talk to our small heroes when we're working in these circumstances.

500
01:19:29.710 --> 01:19:46.450
So in Queensland at the moment they're not approving any. but ethics, applications for Ph. D. Or masters, students in state schools right now, partly. That's because we have a teacher shortage. And there is a crisis in schools, and I guess

501
01:19:46.550 --> 01:19:54.120
the department wants to protect teachers, which I understand that, and I certainly wouldn't want to.

502
01:19:54.130 --> 01:20:11.890
Add to the kinds of stresses that exist in schools. But it also means it's really hard for us moving forward to to tell the stories that we want to tell and not think we've got 1 min left. But I I just thought yesterday at lunch we were having a discussion about

503
01:20:12.210 --> 01:20:21.779
Journalists have access in different ways. And if you look at the stories on Pwc. Over the last week and the total lack of transparency that exists.

504
01:20:21.930 --> 01:20:23.220
there's a lot of

505
01:20:23.270 --> 01:20:43.059
journalists who have done the and a secure link where you can provide tips, and you can, you know, use a secure portal to provide more information. Don't think that would get past our Ethics Committee. I'm not sure. And then I was remembering how some of you would have been there in Toronto. There was someone called Alex.

506
01:20:43.230 --> 01:21:01.140
who did a presentation called speed, intelligence and Discipline, embodied strategies in becoming the market, and he said, what he did was he actually just put a suit on every day, do you remember? And he went into the financial markets in London? That's what he was researching.

507
01:21:01.140 --> 01:21:13.990
He couldn't gain access any other way. So he just dressed smartly and walked in quickly, as if he was out of the crowd. And that's how he conducted his observations in financial markets in London. So

508
01:21:13.990 --> 01:21:32.039
maybe we, we all need to start thinking in different ways, still retaining our own ethics. But I think more and more important is that these kinds of stories are still made public, so that our teachers, nurses who ever understand

509
01:21:32.040 --> 01:21:46.499
the ruling relations, and that gives them a language to be able to speak back to some of the pressures that Janine has talked about and protect the students and people who are most vulnerable, I think, need us most.

510
01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:48.309
So thank you.

511
01:21:53.280 --> 01:22:08.080
Wow, thank you so much. Janine and Meredith, for that. And that's good to hear for us in our terro about Pwc, because that is happening with our health reforms, and that many of our

512
01:22:08.800 --> 01:22:14.180
staff are being sucked into Pwc. Who seem to be taking control. But of course

513
01:22:14.230 --> 01:22:16.139
nobody can access it

514
01:22:16.530 --> 01:22:27.229
so that those are the that that was the last of our fantastic 4 presentations today absolutely brilliant. And thank you you 2 for ending on a

515
01:22:27.380 --> 01:22:36.439
a really powerful enter into the presentations, and I was as you were talking, I was reminded of Tim Diamond's work and just

516
01:22:37.050 --> 01:22:45.940
and ethics, and how we get through this and and what we need to do to to actually get inside and see these organizations.

517
01:22:46.000 --> 01:23:02.859
Okay, well, let's we've got about a little while, and to to have some questions and some discussions. So I've got to open it up to the floor and to those on zoom and

518
01:23:02.920 --> 01:23:07.260
wow! We've had a great journey this morning. Thank you.

519
01:23:07.630 --> 01:23:08.990
Christian, at the back.

520
01:23:16.570 --> 01:23:17.290
Oh.

521
01:23:17.800 --> 01:23:32.249
thank you. I just want to say thank you first to all of the presenters today, because they were fabulous presentations, really enjoyed it. And so my question is actually for all of you, because you've got me thinking about storytelling, and

522
01:23:32.450 --> 01:23:36.220
who gets to tell stories whose stories get heard

523
01:23:36.250 --> 01:23:56.690
and how we deal with complexity and simplification, and that last papers sort of made me reflect on. Well, why are governments going to Pwc, and basically, I think it's because they don't want to deal with complexity right? They want someone else to take that complexity, turn it into something simple. Here's your solution. Carry on. And then what that makes invisible

524
01:23:56.820 --> 01:24:16.390
is the complexity that that simplification creates for people at the other end who now have to fill in all of these forms, and I see resonances in the other papers as well, including in terms of trying to publish, ie. Research. It's like complexity, simplification, trying to translate into different contexts.

525
01:24:16.390 --> 01:24:26.929
So I guess I would just like to hear from each of the presenters. If you could reflect a little bit on how you manage that dynamic between complexity

526
01:24:27.000 --> 01:24:33.249
and yet trying to distill things into something communicable to other audiences.

527
01:24:33.590 --> 01:24:37.650
Thanks. Thank you. Brenda.

528
01:24:38.830 --> 01:24:47.359
 I I think the challenge.

529
01:24:47.560 --> 01:24:52.490
So first of all, if I talk about the says stuff and strategy they were trying to do exactly that.

530
01:24:55.930 --> 01:25:08.510
They were trying to take something incredibly complex and nuanced and professional, and turn it into a simplified tool in order to create proxies for what was actually occurring and for the proxies to become

531
01:25:08.920 --> 01:25:20.870
the decision making tall, and the issue with that is that you lose all the humanity, all the compromises, the risks, the challenges of what is happening on our short staff shift, because.

532
01:25:20.930 --> 01:25:22.749
just relying on this really

533
01:25:23.240 --> 01:25:28.410
abstract proxies for that complexity

534
01:25:28.530 --> 01:25:39.040
which now, of course, in hindsight, I realize, hasn't worked, I think, in terms of conveying that. So I've spoken at a number of conferences now and around this.

535
01:25:39.180 --> 01:25:46.660
and the important, I think, is to not get trapped. And Rachel gave me this feedback yesterday because she's heard me going on about this for years.

536
01:25:47.180 --> 01:25:56.320
I used to get caught to the track of trying to explain the tools and legitimize and justify. And now I don't do that. I just talk about powers and numbers and colors

537
01:25:56.470 --> 01:26:01.210
because of let go of the construction of the tools and just talked about what they do.

538
01:26:01.230 --> 01:26:04.279
But I think that's been a I'm slow. Obviously

539
01:26:04.290 --> 01:26:08.579
it's taken me a while to get to the point where I can start to convey

540
01:26:09.450 --> 01:26:13.779
the the of using proxies for complexity

541
01:26:14.130 --> 01:26:23.979
and the importance of being deeply and richly descriptive in your actualities rather than your abstract proxies.

542
01:26:25.570 --> 01:26:38.990
Absolutely. Yes. Tell the stories of the complexity and what people's work is rather than yeah. And just. And I think storytelling is a great way to get past complexity. I really do. I think it really engages me.

543
01:26:39.030 --> 01:26:47.550
And somebody's just, reflected Suzanne, that that that's exactly what you were saying to in terms of the storytelling and showing that complexity

544
01:26:48.200 --> 01:26:51.320
and Chelps got a hand up.

545
01:26:53.060 --> 01:26:54.990
Kjeld Høgsbro: you know on. And

546
01:26:55.130 --> 01:27:00.799
Kjeld Høgsbro: we have to look at in 2 aspects. There is the whole story.

547
01:27:01.200 --> 01:27:04.399
Kjeld Høgsbro: and then there is a problematic.

548
01:27:05.280 --> 01:27:08.740
Kjeld Høgsbro: and the problematic is the kind of

549
01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:18.819
Kjeld Høgsbro:  well, it's a problematic, but it's it's it's it's getting more simple as a message.

550
01:27:19.160 --> 01:27:24.460
Kjeld Høgsbro: but also a great challenge to get back to the field

551
01:27:24.600 --> 01:27:25.910
Kjeld Høgsbro: and say.

552
01:27:26.120 --> 01:27:30.550
Kjeld Høgsbro: Well, here you are. This is the problematic

553
01:27:30.590 --> 01:27:32.740
Kjeld Høgsbro: in what you're doing.

554
01:27:33.600 --> 01:27:42.090
Kjeld Høgsbro: it's I. When I heard this question, I thought, just try to memorize what I've done, and I've

555
01:27:42.230 --> 01:27:51.529
Kjeld Høgsbro: always written monographs from the studies, and of course, and these monographs has a whole story.

556
01:27:51.890 --> 01:28:05.579
Kjeld Høgsbro: but they are often written by by They read by the practitioners and the consultants, who look at different aspects of the whole story.

557
01:28:05.760 --> 01:28:14.519
Kjeld Høgsbro: And then there's a problematic that is going to be discussed in the field afterwards.

558
01:28:14.880 --> 01:28:22.680
Kjeld Høgsbro: So so those 2 elements, I think that is quite interesting. But of course.

559
01:28:23.690 --> 01:28:25.340
Kjeld Høgsbro: end of story.

560
01:28:25.400 --> 01:28:36.689
Suzanne Vaughan: Thank you, Suzanne, do you want to come in? I yeah, I I do think that anyone I mean from the presentations. Any one

561
01:28:37.030 --> 01:28:47.600
Suzanne Vaughan: I he it's I mean, as she went, pulled all this. It is so complex. And that's one of the reasons why I think.

562
01:28:47.800 --> 01:28:54.480
Suzanne Vaughan: laying out your research different parts of it and taking a wet

563
01:28:54.740 --> 01:29:04.770
Suzanne Vaughan: at crafting that to specific audience, you can portray a lot of the complexity.

564
01:29:05.120 --> 01:29:10.440
Suzanne Vaughan:  in that mail rate. Okay?

565
01:29:11.430 --> 01:29:22.179
Suzanne Vaughan:  yeah, I I don't have some of I, I, I some early work I did consulting on development.

566
01:29:22.340 --> 01:29:27.049
Suzanne Vaughan: Basically, you know, I received, I've been from

567
01:29:27.500 --> 01:29:30.030
Suzanne Vaughan: the fed on some of this.

568
01:29:30.160 --> 01:29:33.299
Suzanne Vaughan: And yeah, we did it.

569
01:29:34.370 --> 01:29:36.150
Suzanne Vaughan: These analysis

570
01:29:36.360 --> 01:29:41.269
Suzanne Vaughan: that I am sure even the policymakers did not read.

571
01:29:41.490 --> 01:29:42.580
Suzanne Vaughan: And what

572
01:29:42.730 --> 01:29:46.600
Suzanne Vaughan: I learned in this from you know

573
01:29:46.640 --> 01:30:02.320
Suzanne Vaughan: in the faculty. Is that what you got to do is to these executive? Some ways they'll read that. Okay, that's a a port, and that is like taking away to. In a certain sense.

574
01:30:02.970 --> 01:30:10.709
Suzanne Vaughan: I am also cognizant of what some of you brought up. Yeah,

575
01:30:12.140 --> 01:30:18.249
Suzanne Vaughan: Jeannie, I I will say, Jamie, I know that's one. But yeah, also

576
01:30:18.430 --> 01:30:23.199
Suzanne Vaughan: is, you know, the ability to collect data.

577
01:30:23.380 --> 01:30:25.560
Suzanne Vaughan: particularly

578
01:30:25.830 --> 01:30:29.000
Suzanne Vaughan: as so much of work

579
01:30:29.820 --> 01:30:31.200
Suzanne Vaughan: of our work

580
01:30:31.520 --> 01:30:34.659
Suzanne Vaughan: is commercialized.

581
01:30:34.800 --> 01:30:52.350
Suzanne Vaughan: and you know that all these problems now, with being able to get access because this is proprietary, or whatever you know, as a way to block out transparency. Of course,

582
01:30:52.730 --> 01:30:58.869
Suzanne Vaughan: one of the strategies. And that new project that I've started taking up

583
01:30:59.080 --> 01:31:04.870
Suzanne Vaughan: is now on environmental stuff and heat and water

584
01:31:04.960 --> 01:31:07.050
Suzanne Vaughan: in the southwest

585
01:31:07.210 --> 01:31:08.169
on the left.

586
01:31:08.370 --> 01:31:16.420
Suzanne Vaughan: And so I, yeah, I happen to know some people that work for this commercial company.

587
01:31:16.560 --> 01:31:26.419
Suzanne Vaughan: And I've asked them, can I talk to you? Okay? Oh, sure no problem. And they open up about their work.

588
01:31:26.680 --> 01:31:27.720
Suzanne Vaughan: Okay.

589
01:31:27.800 --> 01:31:45.520
Suzanne Vaughan:  And so I've sort of gone around. And I I do have to tell you this. I'm retired now and not I don't have to get approval, Irp, approval from my university and things like that.

590
01:31:45.530 --> 01:31:49.340
Suzanne Vaughan: So that's a real advantage. But

591
01:31:49.480 --> 01:32:01.390
Suzanne Vaughan: trying to get it. Access to some of these commercial entities. is really very. I mean, they just shut down. They won't talk to you.

592
01:32:01.600 --> 01:32:05.740
Suzanne Vaughan: but I think if you think more broadly about

593
01:32:06.050 --> 01:32:16.290
Suzanne Vaughan: people and your community neighbors or friends, or whatever you might be able to get access. And

594
01:32:16.460 --> 01:32:20.790
Suzanne Vaughan: the issue for me is and I need is that

595
01:32:20.970 --> 01:32:27.600
Suzanne Vaughan: I don't care where I get it. I don't have to choose a representative sample by. Only

596
01:32:27.680 --> 01:32:37.439
Suzanne Vaughan: that's not what I'm generalizing. I'm getting access to these relations which are generalizable. Okay?

597
01:32:37.790 --> 01:32:46.929
Suzanne Vaughan: And therefore, it's it's not so much that I need, you know, a representative sample

598
01:32:47.150 --> 01:32:49.729
Suzanne Vaughan: of something. So

599
01:32:49.820 --> 01:32:52.889
Suzanne Vaughan: the wedge. And

600
01:32:53.000 --> 01:32:55.619
Suzanne Vaughan: yeah, I'll perhaps take him up

601
01:32:55.740 --> 01:33:04.340
Suzanne Vaughan: other ways of getting access to people. I I do know education

602
01:33:05.240 --> 01:33:15.889
Suzanne Vaughan: hospitals, medical. I think all those have become so commercialized. It's very difficult to get access. And I'm very sympathetic to it.

603
01:33:17.340 --> 01:33:19.760
Suzanne Vaughan: Okay, thank you. Thank you.

604
01:33:19.850 --> 01:33:22.149
Janine or Nada. Do you want to

605
01:33:25.950 --> 01:33:34.040
just going to come back to the complexity, simplicity, and I kind of immediately thought of Ed and elephant. One bite at a time.

606
01:33:34.200 --> 01:33:49.929
and in my everyday work. So I do a little bit of work at uni. But I actually have another job. And I have the opportunity to take up what I've learnt, because once you start doing this stuff you can't unsee it, can you? So

607
01:33:49.930 --> 01:34:05.859
so well, I give an example. So last year the Australian Government contracted Pwc. To do a survey around how this was rolling out. But in my everyday work I'm now friends with these people in Pwc. So I help them

608
01:34:06.240 --> 01:34:23.210
and help them understand the everyday, every night work of teachers. And so they provided a report back to the Australian Government, and they included the every night work of teachers. so I was a little bit pleased. That's a little bit of a yeah, I'm getting in there. So.

609
01:34:23.320 --> 01:34:35.399
But when the survey first came out that wasn't included. But when I explained to them this, you know, there's another 5 h of work that happens at home that you're not counting? so yeah, little bits at a time.

610
01:34:36.030 --> 01:34:37.730
 yeah.

611
01:34:38.140 --> 01:34:41.770
all right, thank you does that do you want to come back on that, thank you.

612
01:34:42.390 --> 01:34:52.850
other other comments are the Yes French about the institutional capture.

613
01:34:52.930 --> 01:34:57.899
 I think i. E. To one thing, is to

614
01:34:57.960 --> 01:35:05.940
put the problem to the institution. but I think also there is another layer is that we realize that we are

615
01:35:06.070 --> 01:35:15.589
we. We participate in the ruling relations, and that's the capture that you are talking, but I think being captured.

616
01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:21.170
it's different from knowing that you are captured by institution.

617
01:35:21.530 --> 01:35:25.699
And so I think, actually,

618
01:35:25.960 --> 01:35:41.420
That's that. That's one of the goal of I that the researcher know that you participate in the institution rooting relations. So there are space being create.

619
01:35:41.830 --> 01:35:53.159
Then I was. I will call for co-a, that we are engaged as a critical intellectual engage in the process process of self-negation.

620
01:35:53.400 --> 01:35:58.380
that we all always try to deny or challenge what we

621
01:35:58.460 --> 01:36:10.700
know, what what we think as truth. So there are space, new space to be create for for knowledge, creation. So I think you are captured.

622
01:36:10.770 --> 01:36:23.170
That process that I impact how that change you. So I think social change may be the most difficult thing to change the societies, to change our self.

623
01:36:23.400 --> 01:36:25.879
And I think I, too, have that

624
01:36:25.910 --> 01:36:32.700
to bring a new look on our self. Yeah. So that's one of the feedback. I want to give it to you

625
01:36:32.960 --> 01:36:33.780
okay?

626
01:36:34.890 --> 01:36:37.280
And the other Lauren

627
01:36:37.630 --> 01:36:38.940
has the.

628
01:36:40.770 --> 01:37:01.240
So I was thinking, and I know I haven't mastered this at all. But I'm thinking there's a difference between clarity and simplicity. And I'm I'm just wondering if maybe we don't need to make it more simple. It's just more clear. So again, I because I I'm seeing a lot of work that

629
01:37:01.430 --> 01:37:14.970
it is in areas that I don't do. It's just a weird standing here. you know. I don't work in health care. I don't work in the other fields that people are studying in this way.

630
01:37:15.880 --> 01:37:22.210
but in very clear ways. All of your presentations have shown to me how it works.

631
01:37:22.240 --> 01:37:29.290
so I guess I wouldn't say it's simple, and I don't know if Suzanne used that word or not. But I think

632
01:37:29.780 --> 01:37:51.359
 yeah, I don't know. I think it. It's clear I don't know, and maybe I'm just I I mean, I definitely have thoughts on Irb, too, which was set up for the medical model, and and journalists don't need to get approval to talk to people. So I mean, I I understand.

633
01:37:52.110 --> 01:38:16.480
you know. Yeah, we shouldn't be. But we are ethical people. We're engaged in this research because we give a shit.

634
01:38:17.310 --> 01:38:42.870
Yeah, Hi, Rafael, I'm not an institutional ethnographer. But I was just wondering about the ethics boards who is actually in those and who gets to to control access, because I think it's very different in different countries, and for very and different institutions as well. Right? Because I was wondering, like, on what level are they actually allowed to not give you access. If your research is actually

635
01:38:42.870 --> 01:38:55.930
following the state of the art of ethical research practices, actually, then, there is no way somebody could say no, I would be my my view of how the institutions usually work. So I was just wondering if the

636
01:38:56.430 --> 01:39:13.850
there should be a discussion on that, or I was it. It's actually not a I mean, our University Ethics Board is different from Institutions now often have an ethics process.

637
01:39:14.010 --> 01:39:20.400
So government departments will have their own ethics process. So they will say.

638
01:39:20.410 --> 01:39:28.599
we have a teacher shortage. Unless this research is going to directly benefit a so individual teacher, then we won't approve it.

639
01:39:29.870 --> 01:39:33.320
in which case they can say No to pretty much

640
01:39:33.580 --> 01:39:42.960
everything that comes across their desk. And as Sophia and I also know an added complexity as they can veto publications

641
01:39:43.020 --> 01:39:52.069
or institutions that you work for, I guess, can can also have a say over what can be published and what can't as well.

642
01:39:52.620 --> 01:40:01.289
So that happened to me on a separate project where they didn't want anything critical to be published, even though we actually did get ethics for that one.

643
01:40:01.310 --> 01:40:12.220
So I think New South Wales is yeah. And in the New South Wales Department of Education we're finding the same thing where students aren't being approved. But also people who have

644
01:40:12.220 --> 01:40:37.219
projects where they partnered with the department, even if it's not funded by the department, they have to have their publications approved to the point where the per the department will look like, give it to their statisticians. And If it's a quant paper, for example, they might say, no, we don't actually agree with the way that you've analyzed these statistics. Please go away and do a different form of analysis, and you need to do this before we will approve it. So I maybe it's something very

645
01:40:37.220 --> 01:40:54.800
specific to Australia, perhaps because I'm seeing a fair amount of shocked faces in the room. But it's definitely something that's happening fast here in Australia that happens in health care all the time. Here, too, human services as well. Yeah, it's chronic

646
01:40:55.020 --> 01:41:12.830
and and similar real challenges in in New Zealand, as well with with incredibly complex forms, that you have to go through and tick everything off, but doesn't allow there's no scope as as Lawrence, and for allowing your own ethical position to be there.

647
01:41:13.400 --> 01:41:15.470
which makes doing, i. E. And

648
01:41:15.660 --> 01:41:18.589
and putting that into ethics quite complex.

649
01:41:18.760 --> 01:41:42.500
So just to carry on with that. So Because of my position in employment, I've been able to generate a a little project with some of the some schools. It's gone through all of the ethics approval. And we're partnering with those. And it's been a gentle, slow walk through and and really working with them.

650
01:41:42.560 --> 01:41:48.410
And and I guess probably we go back to why, how do you find the elbow space? You do it with people.

651
01:41:48.430 --> 01:42:03.959
and slowly and hopefully we'll start that project next week on Monday with a couple of schools looking at student data, and how we can support teachers in some of the decision making that they might be making. But it's a process.

652
01:42:03.990 --> 01:42:06.409
yeah, it's complicated.

653
01:42:11.330 --> 01:42:22.979
I don't think this is going to help you, but I just wanted to put out mesa carto's. I've listened to a number of her podcasts. Recently, she's a wonderful

654
01:42:23.370 --> 01:42:39.869
economics. Professor talks about or has taken a quote from some Lord in the Uk. That talked about the infantilization of the public service with all the work going out to corporates. So

655
01:42:40.360 --> 01:42:44.450
I think that explains very well what's happened. It doesn't help your situation.

656
01:42:44.469 --> 01:42:52.809
But I did want to ask a question. Is there any way we, as a group, can support

657
01:42:53.910 --> 01:42:58.389
each other? Because clearly, it's happening a lot

658
01:42:58.410 --> 01:43:00.639
and are there ways.

659
01:43:01.100 --> 01:43:14.160
I don't know that we can be resistant, that we can work out other ways of getting information out, because I'm really conscious, for instance, Pwc. For those of you that are in Australia at the moment they are highly embarrassed.

660
01:43:14.260 --> 01:43:30.420
They are at the point of unploding, but they will work their way out of us, and they'll keep doing this kind of work, and they are very big internationally, and it really is by shining the light

661
01:43:30.490 --> 01:43:44.009
with stories that the people in the community can hear and say, that shit. That's our kids at the school that are being done in the I. So I guess for me, it's about as there, some ways we can help.

662
01:43:44.129 --> 01:43:56.019
In some ways we can help to publicize without actually people losing their jobs some quicker ways. I love. I love what you're doing, Merida, in terms of walking beside.

663
01:43:56.100 --> 01:44:08.750
our consultants, I'm just saying, are there some other things we can do. And I thought maybe we could do something like help. You write something in the conversation. But actually, that wouldn't work like that's a newspaper that's here that would have happily

664
01:44:08.770 --> 01:44:10.810
done something. But

665
01:44:11.170 --> 01:44:14.979
it's clearly not an answer, so I don't have an answer.

666
01:44:15.680 --> 01:44:26.030
We've just got another couple of minutes left. Does anybody want to come back on that, or should I? Anyone on there, on, on Zoom?

667
01:44:26.219 --> 01:44:38.389
I just want to go back to the original questions in the first presentation, because, like a what's happened since that moment. But there was some great little thought bubbles there to expand on

668
01:44:38.620 --> 01:44:40.770
about what happens when we drop

669
01:44:42.430 --> 01:44:53.329
and and what have people found to be to work personally as I as to get through that? But personally, it's having supportive people around you.

670
01:44:53.410 --> 01:45:06.209
I think you can really do this challenging work really? Well, if you have a very supportive team around you that can be preferably in your immediate parameter in the physical world. But

671
01:45:06.260 --> 01:45:13.810
I guess that's where the i. E. Community of practice really comes in. So I really do hope we stay in touch and don't have to wait till

672
01:45:13.889 --> 01:45:18.590
4 years in career, or whatever to do these things again. But yeah.

673
01:45:18.610 --> 01:45:20.389
yeah.

674
01:45:20.719 --> 01:45:41.309
thank you. Thank you. And I think that's a a lovely place to begin to end. I'm going to invite Frank up just to close, really close up. Oh, and I'm sorry. Yes, yes, yes, a 10 s announcement. we for the project that I'm working on, which is our music student's work and health, and we are looking for a post-

675
01:45:41.310 --> 01:45:57.690
so if anybody is interested, The fragrantly dis Christine, Dr. Kushing got to and I know she would really love someone with the background in, ie. To really hit the ground running. But background and music isn't necessary. But yeah, so if anybody's interested in a postdoc in Montreal

676
01:45:58.030 --> 01:46:02.020
in Montreal. Oh, Montreal, anyone.

677
01:46:02.430 --> 01:46:09.250
Thank you. All right. I want to thank. Yeah, Susan, please.

678
01:46:09.790 --> 01:46:12.510
Suzanne Vaughan: Now, okay, I oops.

679
01:46:13.820 --> 01:46:29.730
Oh, you're off mute yet. Back again. I just want to say I have really enjoyed this conference, and I want to congratulate everyone in Melbourne for pulling this off

680
01:46:30.100 --> 01:46:35.869
Suzanne Vaughan: for the people who organize the session. Thank you that I just

681
01:46:36.800 --> 01:46:39.889
Suzanne Vaughan: have to say that it's been enjoyable.

682
01:46:39.990 --> 01:46:44.840
Hmm, thank you, Suzanne. Yeah.

683
01:46:44.970 --> 01:46:54.540
And so then I will also want to thank you for offering your wisdom and experience that it it really, it's very, very comforting

684
01:46:54.660 --> 01:46:57.130
to know that we can publish.

685
01:46:57.160 --> 01:47:05.739
not just getting here and complain that this is something you have done. And you told told us how to do that.

686
01:47:05.830 --> 01:47:20.479
And last question I could actually, Jed, how to pronounce your first name. That's something I always troubling me. I cannot leave the conference without knowing how to pronounce your last. Your first name.

687
01:47:21.790 --> 01:47:28.479
how to pronounce your first name is Kitjet, or is jet or skele?

688
01:47:29.990 --> 01:47:32.320
Kjeld Høgsbro: Oh, my name is Sale.

689
01:47:32.810 --> 01:47:42.020
Kjeld Høgsbro: Okay? Good. I I hope I can still remember that. But, Celt, okay.

690
01:47:42.050 --> 01:47:49.620
Kjeld Høgsbro: good. I can. I can leave in peace now. Yeah, yeah. But the D is is mute.

691
01:47:54.390 --> 01:48:10.330
Okay, okay? So we keep mispronouncing your first name. So you kind of don't know that you've been call. Okay. Excel. Thank you. Thank you. B, on the Internet all the time.

692
01:48:10.540 --> 01:48:40.090
okay, before I come, I have. I have been the co-president for 3 years. I I joined the Isa meeting, but I keep wondering. Who am I? Why am I here, and why I wake up in the midnight and join the conference, talking about issue that has doesn't feel rather relevant to me. But after coming to Melbourne I really feel that this is my community

693
01:48:40.180 --> 01:48:59.649
that we are as a group, and we are here. So I really feel that I know who I am and why I'm here. So I really want to thank everybody that we've been here. No, like a summer camp. I know it's not summer here, but it's like the whole week that we

694
01:48:59.650 --> 01:49:17.980
that we talk to each other and connect feeling that we are a group now through different topic. And I want to thank everybody to make this conference. that worthwhile that make us connect. Also, it's a it's really a spiritual gathering.

695
01:49:18.000 --> 01:49:36.539
And I hope that we can continue this especially. This is the first Isa, after we lost Dorothy, and I think people has concerned how I can continue. But I think we have a very good step that we know we are all

696
01:49:36.540 --> 01:49:49.989
little hero in our world, just like Dorothy, is a little hero in his struggle against the world. So I think we will all carry that metaphor.

697
01:49:50.050 --> 01:49:51.930
the little hero

698
01:49:52.070 --> 01:49:59.510
back in our world. yeah. So I really want to thank everybody to be here.

699
01:49:59.720 --> 01:50:01.600
And I won't.

700
01:50:01.630 --> 01:50:17.859
I want to take a photo of all of us. So I will invite. I also want to to. Thanks all the conductors. It has been so well organized and inspiring. All the week.

701
01:50:17.890 --> 01:50:24.880
Kjeld Høgsbro: I've been sitting here from midnight to noon in the month.

702
01:50:24.910 --> 01:50:33.830
Kjeld Høgsbro: and I have the, and I was never fallen asleep. It has been so interesting to to listen to the presenters.

703
01:50:33.880 --> 01:50:40.000
Thank you. And I will invite people here to come. Sit here and can you take? And can you take the the computer. Oh.