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but maybe we should give it a sad, and I'm sure Andrew will still turn up. But maybe let's get started. I'd like to start by acknowledging the warranty people of the colon nations who are the traditional custodians of these lands, of these unseeded lands in which we meet today, and would like to acknowledge the elders past, present, and emerging

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and would like to acknowledge that this is

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aboriginal land, and hopefully will be recognized later on this year.

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Well, Hi, Andrew, Thanks for coming to this session. So this session has come about when we met as a kind of as to your 5 board? a while ago and just thought, you know, what? What can we do for Ecs for Hds, and yeah, sort of probably the best thing is to share experiences with you. So I'm I mean, we aiming for that to be really quite informal.

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we have 2 of our panelists online. one in the room. who will introduce shortly. But yeah, I'm really hoping for that to be rather informal. So I'll kick off with some questions. So maybe we have, like 40 45 min of one

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question answers on the on the panel. and then we move to the room. So just I I should ask you also, are you happy for questions to come in while? after? Yeah. Yeah. So let's do that. So. it's really a big pre pleasure to introduce our 3 panelists to you. I started with Christine Kristina Ginness, senior lecturer, and the Faculty of Arts and social Sciences at the University of Technology, Sydney

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have research focuses on global Filipino migration, racism and exclusions and everyday modes of migrant transnationalism. She is the author of Racism and Resistance among the Filipino Diaspora, published by Rudlech, which was awarded a special recommendation. Special accommodation by the Australian Sociological Association in the 2,020 rowing Connell Prize.

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She's currently a chief investigator on an Australian Research Council Discovery project which examines how public spaces in diverse global cities in Singapore, Sydney, and London can be made more accessible for the leisure practices and social activities of marginalized and vulnerable migrants.

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and prior to becoming a full-time academic Christine worked on partnerships and commissioned research in the community sector and in Western Sydney. Welcome Christine.

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Dr. Virginia. Mappitzahama is the member education Director at Diversity Council, Australia. She's a first generation black African-american woman and a critical race, black feminist scholar in the broader field of sociology, of difference. Her research interest is in understanding the social construction of all categories of difference. His interest is fuelled by her own experiences of racism, racialization, racial discrimination, and intersectional harms

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as a racially marginalized person living in Australia.

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and just written fantastic papers on this topic, which I really recommend, as I do it, with Christine's publications, and Virginia explores her research interest in the context of subjective experiences of race racism and ethnicity, migration and diaspora.

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blackness, black subjectivity, sexuality, hybridity, intersectionality and gender violence. Virginia has published extensively in these areas, as well as the broader fields of cross-culture identities, African feminism, post-colonial feminism near African diaspora, in Australia, and African women. Diaspora.

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Welcome, Virginia, thanks for joining us.

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And finally, last, but not least, Dr. Andrew Spoler, who is an international award-winning data and research innovator with over 30 years experience in research, governance, policy, and ethics. His current work is mainly focused on that of strategy, social health, inequity, statistical literacy.

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or making statistical information resources more useful to decision makers beyond government. This work is carried out through. I, an enzyme inside sorry analytics. Maori owned data, analytics and Visualisation Company.

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Andrew is a deputy director of the Healthier Lives National Science Challenge, a board member for several Maori or indigenous research committees advised on government data and research initiatives in Ayo, Theora, and Australia. He is to co-lead on for insights, statistical software, and on the executive of the Virtual Health Information Network.

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Tamana, Ra Roonga, and the International Sociological Association Research Committee on Racism, Nationalism, Indigenity, and Ethnicity. Thanks Andrew also for making the time to join us today.

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So I I have to say we all. I'm sorry, and I know that. Christine and Virginia have said they can't join you in person today. we have put that panel together, kind of hoping that that everyone will be in the room. But yeah, it is how it is. but I think this is working well. So we've done our sound checks. And you should be able to interact easily with our panelists online.

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So yeah, thanks very much for accepting our invitation. And yeah, and and really being making yourself available for sharing your insights. and as I said, I'd really like that to be informal. It should be a safe space for you to ask questions and also share any concerns that you have about this. Yeah difficult stage of being an Ecr or Hdr researcher.

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So I'd like to start off by asking you about. Maybe if you could speak just briefly about your pathway from the Ph d. So, including any kinds of activities that you feel are worth mentioning that you did during the Phds at the publications or paid research work, and maybe I'll start with Virginia

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and then move on to Christine. And then the

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): Thank Thank you so much, matina and it's a pleasure to be on this panel? But before I start, can I also just acknowledge? the one go, people of the urination is the traditional custodians of the lens on which I'm dialing in from which is the what's what's now known as city of Stratfield.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and acknowledged that so many. She was never seated, and I went to pay my respects to eldest past prison and emerging, and acknowledged that This is wasn't always working aboriginal land.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and thank you for that question. I it as somewhat a very interesting I guess, Korea, since my since since finishing my completing my Phd, I suppose I should really start with saying, like, I'm not an ecr anymore wave as being an Ecr, but I've had a very long career. that's eventually ended up with, so me kind of leaving academic space.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): but not really academic research, which is also very interesting, because in my current role I still do research but really more from that applied kind of perspective. so

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): my career started off. quite lucky, I suppose, because I got a post of straight after my Phd. and that was really good at the University of Sydney. That was really good, because that sort of catapulted my research career and my advice at the time. This is quite a few years ago had been that the the sort of your Korea can going to directions if you take the the research route, which is potentially the one that really strengthens your research

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): profile and your publications, etc. It's a really good kind of pathway, but it's less sort of secure in terms of employment, because it's got a lot of a lot of it is you know, fixed term contracts, and you know, sometimes even short term contracts and I don't know whether to say, fortunately or unfortunately, that was my my, my my pathway which really strengthened my research profile, but at the same time and

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): It meant that that I lived quite a lot of my academic life with employment insecurity if we can call it that But it was a really good way to start off my Korea in terms of going and getting that post of it. It's it.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I I think, any other way. I don't think I would be where I am today if I had started it any other way. So prior, and I knew before. that that's the part that I wanted to go. So my

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): Phd. Supervisors and my mentors we all advise me about what you just said, Martina. About you know, publishing any of the emerging like research that was coming out of my my Phd work findings and and trying to do that in reputable journals attending reputable conferences where I could

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): make connections. I think conferences are fantastic ways for early career researchers to get their work out, they to get connected to, you know, the key sort of debates. And you know the direction that the research is going. So you know how to like teach and

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and sort of focus your research even more and and and you know to know what can inform your research outside of just kind of looking at the literature online, or wherever. So I did all of that presented conferences. But I also focused it at sort of collaborating.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and because of the work that I was doing at the time, which is focusing also on African migrant women was about when women specifically was very like there was very little work being done on kind of non non-wide, you know, or or people from historically marginalized groups. So it was kind of really everywhere I went.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): People were sort of interested in my working at it made a lot of connections and collaborations that way. But yeah, so it started off. straight off out of ph, d into yeah, into into prost. And then I got another post of that, you and me. And then from day I got into a teaching position. But that was already like 5 or 4 years out of my ph, so that was really good, because I'd already built my research profile by then. And then after that, I I exited Academia

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fantastic thanks very much for yeah, kicking us off with this, but might look as an unconventional path. But it's not actually any more an unconventional pathway in the sense that a lot of sociologists work outside the Academy. That's that's movement in both directions. So we have deliberately or I have to deliberately invite the scholars who kind of for scholars and who also work outside Academy. So thanks very much, Virginia. Maybe let's move to Christina

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and privile. I check the on the online.

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Kristine Aquino: Thanks, Virginia. So I mean, a little bit similar in terms of that precarity that you experience. you know, as an Ecl, which I think is obviously very common now, so like Virginia as well. It's been about I'm coming into, I think, 10 years since I completed my phd.

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Kristine Aquino: so definitely reflecting on these questions as a kind of once, you see, either, you know, that's always kind of an interesting term, because you never really know when you stop being an Ecr or like, I always think of my, you know, at the strike of midnight, a particular date. I'm going to turn into a pumpkin or something once I once, you know, in the Ecos stage ends or something. But that doesn't happen. you know, in Australia, And it.

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Kristine Aquino: I think it's different. Say another. In other context. You know, you're an ecr. You're considered an Ecl when you're kind of 5 years or less out of your Phd.

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Kristine Aquino: Certainly say in funding applications or things like that. But It's probably only been the last couple of years for me that I've considered myself no longer an easier and I think many see as know that that conventional 5 year time limit here in Australia, anyway, doesn't really accurately capture the criteria of being an Ecr. Especially with the amount of precarity that you can experience

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Kristine Aquino: first. Phd. So, in terms of my pathway from the Ph. D. To my current position, so I didn't go the route of getting a per stop there. I did apply it but I think I kind of made a decision to try to go towards like a teaching research position. And that was.

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Kristine Aquino: you know.

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Kristine Aquino: on the premise that I felt like it was a little bit more secure, and you know, kind of thinking at that stage, I mean, I didn't have a family back then in terms of my own. But really thinking about that more. You know. What if I wanted to have a family soon, and things like that so that kind of, and as well coming from, I guess, a migrant family, an ethnic family. We have a lot of obligations to support extended family. So you know you it was, it being in kind of a very precarious position.

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Kristine Aquino: you know, you've had to really kind of make a choice. So I was doing a lot of casual teaching and as well working in paid research in the community sector.

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Kristine Aquino: and which I think is, you know, one form of the common juggling act a lot of Vcs find themselves in still to this day. So in the first couple of years I was working as a casual tutor across a couple of universities and as well working for a government research agency in Western Sydney where I was doing research with migrant and lower socioeconomic communities. And actually I had held this job during my Phd. And even

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Kristine Aquino: back all the way back to when I was an honest student as well, so I was with them for a very long time. And you know, juggling that with casual shooting tutoring once I started my Phd.

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Kristine Aquino: so you know, completing my studies as well. It was pretty hectic, you know, but

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Kristine Aquino: rent and bills need to be paid but a couple of years per Ph. D. I was lucky to be appointed on a full time fixed term, contract position. As a associate lecturer with the sociology department I had graduated from, which is at Maccari University.

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Kristine Aquino: And so a shout out to, you know my colleagues? I know some of them might be there at the conference this week. and yeah, I was really lucky to to get that position and and where I had been. I had been doing long term teaching with them. and it was a crazy teaching. Learn, you know, I was kind of just substituting for colleagues who are a Sabbatical or a research intensive.

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Kristine Aquino: But The position gave me more space than I had before to focus on publishing my thesis into a book and working on a couple of journal articles because I wasn't writing any general articles during my Phd, so yeah. And then I also gained experience in kind of more subject coordination. Got a sense of how a department works, but I think, perhaps more importantly, I had access to some great mentors in the Department to help me navigate that Ecr stage. And then from

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Kristine Aquino: that kind of 2, you contract, I, G, eventually got a full time continuing position at Uts. as a lecturer in global studies, and at that stage I had.

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Kristine Aquino: I was probably coming into 5 years per se. I at first. Phd, I'd probably applied for a handful of level B jobs and per stops but had never been shortlisted.

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Kristine Aquino: And then, after 2 years of crazy teaching at that job, I took time off to have a baby for a year, and I always kind of joke that I got so burned from teaching that is, decided to make a baby to take a break, anyway. I've been back full time for a couple of years now.

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Right? Thank you, Christine, and it's great to. I mean in this story that you're told. Now, there's really there's everything in it from these kind of fluid and messy parallel activities that we engage in.

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So you know, we work, and we don't just start work. Post Phd. Without the most most of us, many of us are working throughout our studies undergrad studies. So it's kind of. There's often this kind of parallel activities. And you just one at 1 point when the when does the career start? When is it just about making money, or what is, you know, when I actually building your career? So this is exactly what we kind of interested in here. So, yeah, thanks very much for for that. So let's move to Andrew now and then up, maybe open up for the first round of questions to

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Kristine Aquino: Sorry I we're not able. I'm not able to hear Andrew.

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 sorry.

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Can you hear that?

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Thank you.

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Yeah. I like the in the distant. I'm sure you've got some 6 questions.

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 so if definitely make a think, that's a.

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it's on the jury. But the other people to turn them. Actually, we meet at the

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It is not a privilege to be here, but I feel a little bit of a fraud because I am a sociologist. One of my very good friends is a very senior piece of sociology, one of the universities of New Zealand.

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and we're talking about retirement

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a second.

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So here I am talking to some early career researchers. And you put it there. I was just, hey?

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some fantastic opportunities and and it had the most nonlinear career possible. But it's with fun. It's been really, really exciting.

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And for me, what I'm going to tell you is that the future of research is not secure.

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get used to it.

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But particularly if your involvement with the sociology and research do not be linear, but can be a lot of.

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And because of that you end up with a diversity you end up with big and a diversity of environments, and a lot of us get trained really, really? Well to do one really cool thing.

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but then complain may not be the complain. In 3 or 4 years of violence

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I had the great advantage.

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When I was

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actually a student politician. We' only the march down on the main street that allowed us to in the student be

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like, today's

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so But finding this great opportunity.

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so we'll learn a lot about research. So our train is sociologist

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and then

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policy as a masters, I mean, I was supposed to do a Phd. But the economy crashed

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that my business question. I don't want to be actually in this. I don't want to.

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So give me okay, I need a job. I really got a job.

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and somebody from that job told me about another job that they wanted me to take. And it was an indigenous environment that I was working.

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And I said, I don't really want a job. And she just looked at me and said, one of the artists just looked at me and said, You're not listening for it.

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And what it was was that I was putting the environment where I need to.

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as the future recruit of research is having a diverse awareness of those skills and the most.

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it's an early career

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for me. It was about building a methodological toolbox and a toolbox of understanding all the different approaches of doing that.

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Sorry

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one. Me.

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who was actually in the video interested how to ask, not specifically, but very hard not to epidemiologist, who's now at this thing

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of the

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it.

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he's hit through 250 in on the next committee.

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because you see that enormous amount of

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expose yourself to environments where you'll be looking at other people's research, but not necessarily.

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And the neighbors should see lots and lots of research.

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Secondly, get an environment where you're reviewing your research.

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So again, you're learning, you're learning from Farmer, and it also enables you to's the learning environment.

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And that was really good for me because I didn't do it. I didn't do it, I mean, straight up into a postage of the equivalent of the energy must be here in Australia.

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but as and part of that is, I developed a in the Iranian Workforce Development program.

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indigenous researchers.

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And what we did to that is, we, those kind of learning experiences as opposed to the most deep learning experience.

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But the other thing we did was we built a career layer. We deliberately built a career layer

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on zoom.

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Okay, we've deliberately built a career letter.

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What did that look like

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that meant? You'd actually have a network. You have a mentor, but find a mentor

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And then, if you're looking for a job

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that me, too, may not be part of your job, it might not be a

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we looked at

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for 4 different things for looking for your first job.

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But realizing this is being a sociologist like an ideal type, chances are you need to just take a job, but if you are lucky enough to be fortunate to be able to be looking for a job, and there are options. Pick an option that is in first and foremost, safe

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but safe for you. Right? and secondly, part of that is being supportive. It's a supportive network. You can actually see that it's developing other researchers. They're not keeping people in post-OP positions.

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right? And you're seeing people that actually are developing their career with a network force environment.

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Thirdly, there is a learning environment that it actually provides you with opportunities to learn, and hopefully, probably most importantly, that it has a

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overt developed career development structure for everybody in there, and a really good way to spot. That is, the senior academic staff do not put themselves first on any

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and that means when you're looking at jobs. And if you, if you.

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the luxury of choice, look at the environment and talk to people and look at the environment in terms of who that producing? What are they doing to their current early career researchers? And then then say, Okay, I might be here for 3 or 4 years is that environment likely to change?

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It's all it takes as a change of director. And we've got a really good example of that

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at the moment, and in Australia, for a really successful place to work had a change of director. And they've just lost about 25% of their stuff

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to actually look at the sustainability of that environment. But

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and at the end of that you should be producing or developing a mythological toolkit. Why am I focusing on methods because subjects change myth. It's done.

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He developed a mythological toolkit that you really really got one or 2 things.

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and then the other things you know enough to know what you don't know.

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and you know enough that when you need to hand over and bring some expertise and part of your career. You're developing this mythological toolkit. But that is your market point

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that you can do stuff.

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So, for example, I learned to code.

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I was actually so I'm actually a qualitative. So a sociologist. But I became a quantitative, hard, quantitative. So social epidemiologist because I worked with a mentor who went. No, you seem to be quite good at numbers right? And so I became an epidemiologist.

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If you want an example of how nonlinear a career can be, I started off as a qualitative sociologist.

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I'm doing lots and lots of focus groups of about

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health care seeking behavior.

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I'm now an associate professor of statistics

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at the university. I've never done a step to paper in my life, but I teach, I I teach postgrad and that means that you actually have to be prepared for that environment.

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And how do you get prepared for that environment? You build up an mythological toolkit that you sustain and nurture and is applicable in a wide range of environment.

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and for me that paid excellent evidence, and I would highly recommend that to

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thanks. Andrew. I wish someone had told me all of that many years ago. Thanks. Yeah, right at lies. I've just taken my notes like methodological toolkit build that expose yourself to learning environments and research. The organisational institution that we hope to work for that such excellent advice, and

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I think we often don't even think we have the privilege to do that. But it's really worthwhile. So yeah, check with people who work in places that you think you'd like to work in. And But one thing I'm not just chipping myself as a kind of I guess myth career person. So one thing I always tell my Phd. Is my so the Pierre Sheek, ready to complain.

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is that they?

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It's worth what I mean for balance between recognizing your value, someone who's really on top of up to date, with a certain area of research more than many people that might employ you because you've had this time of 3 years. Even if you've worked at the same time, we've actually really developed in depth expertise.

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And this is this is your capital. This is, you know, this is actually of a lot of value for the people who will employ you, and there are, unfortunately, some predatory academics who will exploit that in, as, for example, not letting you be the first author, even if you do all the work so and of course I mean you can't

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avoid that. If you are in a situation like that, I mean, there's strategies we can talk about. But yeah, do that research in advance. So apply your research skills to actually finding out where might be good teams or institutions to work. And so thank you. Maybe I ask you for now whether there's any questions that you like to ask to follow up on any of the things that Christine, Virginia, and and who have said so far.

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I guess I'm going to go to everyone and question for you. I feel weary. similar. And now I've started very much as a qualitative sociologist song group for the Building Research Association Museum.

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To my.

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I'm like to see the research back.

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It's one thing that's been pulled up tomato

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to develop more quantitative skills. And thank you.

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Hello! Can you hear me? All right.

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awesome. All right, I'll start again killed everyone. My name is Aaron Lochier. I am a

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sociologist at the Building Research Association of New Zealand, and I'm a one year into my Phd. At Victorian Vinci. Well.

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more of a question for Andrew around. what are some kind of tips and

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developing, though it's kind of more other, that other methodological token and and skills? Is it about, as you say, finding different mentors as their ways, that you can try and incorporate different projects? Will there things.

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all courses and stuff that you were able to learn, or books or other things that kind of helped you on that tuning

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most definitely. The the thing is, if you're going to end up in quantitative research, realize that it's

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there's a full spectrum of quantitative research from the theoretical statisticians to the practical analysts.

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and

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you will never get to one end of the spectrum. And or do you want to? Because your dress style

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right? You know what they're

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you don't want people but And so you're sick to the well-dressed side of that spectrum, and

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realized as a

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sociologist who's quantitative, that there are certain methods to do. And we there's 2 ways to do it. The best way to learn is to follow an example of a team player.

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because in our country. Quantitative sociology is a war that we.

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despite the fact, we have some of the best government that the minister regarded in the world.

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So if you're not lucky enough to have that statistical training, and you and and your degree do 2 things. If you're looking at doing research, find some methods that you understand that seem to be applicable and get them. Get that elevator.

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Secondly, look for the kind of courses that offer you an opportunity to live.

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but only pick the courses where you are actually able to reply their knowledge relatively quickly.

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It's a full like quantitative methods cool.

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And you don't get to apply that and

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technology relatively quickly, it's gone.

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And I I mean, I went to Florence to learn genetic epidemiology.

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It was a fantastic video in a wine bar

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which is great. The only thing I can remember from that course, because I never got to apply it was that like hating coriander is genetic.

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I think I could remember the course. I could go back to my notes. But if but that's that is a point that do, of course, apply the knowledge. Then you actually reinforce it.

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I cannot

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recommend enough for the X-ray courses or in New Zealand the New Zealand Social Statistics. Social Statistics with courses not just because I set those up. And we actually copied the X-ray courses.

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So I definitely definitely do the courses that only be the ones that apply directly to what you're going to do initially.

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And they've been an environment where those things are used. So if you, if you're an environment that you don't know what this method is. Saddle up to somebody who does.

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and we at the luxury. Now that remains as normal, it may not always be good, but at least it's normal. And you.

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that means you're actually working with somebody with some expertise who can, who can reinforce

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good behavior with regards to that new method, and tell you when you're going slightly off.

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Thanks. So much for your job.

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Thanks any other questions for the floor yet, Kathy.

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Friends

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come and use the mite. Can you hear me?

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Okay? So I have a question. so I'm like Christina. I'm now in a fixed term teaching contract and a bit of the kind of the casual precarious teaching. And now in a fix, and it's nice to have

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a little bit of full time kind of security. And I'm doing a lot of the things that you're suggesting. So publishing in the Ph. D. On the side, learning quant as well as a way of kind of doing a bit of extra. But my question is, is there

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as a researcher? Is there a time limit on how long we're allowed to kind of stay in these fixed term teaching roles before we're seen as being.

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I guess, too far away from research. I mean, does it? Does it have a negative impact on our future research prospects. If we spend 2 or 3 or 4 years as full time lecturers as opposed to researchers, even if we're doing this kind of stuff on the side. no, if you look. And actually, it's really important to spot an environment.

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I don't want this time to get a biscuit of 35,

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and then my wife.

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 One really good piece of career advice is Mario Suther right? But I was lucky enough to marry him. But anyway, she wanted to go and have kids, but she was still in training. So I I did the Childc thing for a couple of years. So short answer, no.

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but But that's where your networks are really really important.

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and your networks

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And and and a little bit of creating, planning when I was where you are now. The circuit breaker for me was a couple of conferences and a couple and a

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and getting into a

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network of people

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there.

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We're interested in some similar things, but had a couple of senior people. So it actually had some momentum for growth.

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and that that was a really effective circuit. But no, there is no

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 There is no moment. We're not equipped for the health of serious Council. We have a Phd. Scholarship to a 68 year old.

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actually still working in April. Hmm.

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That! And it was choosing them to sell that. And she was remarkable

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like that.

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I'm not. Hmm! I might just turn to Virginia. thanks, Andrew to Virginia and Christine, and Ask you what you think about that question, what you would answer, and I should acknowledge that of course I mean we speak here from meat, or you know whatever point in the, in the long career we it but We obviously all the different stages. So all that we tell you

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is informed by our own experience. But we also see that things are changing all the time, and I mean even Christina Virginia. I again kind of went through that stage. Possibly, if he is early or well a few years earlier than you did.

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But what would you say in response to that is to a long it too long time to stay in those teaching positions. What would you, you know if someone if you were in a in an in a selection committee for a job. But but for a lecturer job at your university or in your organization? Yeah, it probably applies more to Christina. yeah, what? What do you think. Is that too long time to start in teaching?

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Kristine Aquino: So yeah, I'll just clarify. So I've I've not been in a kind of teaching intensive position

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Kristine Aquino: I've been in a, you know, 40, 40, 20 position where you do 40% teaching, 40% research, and 20% other things.

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Kristine Aquino: But you know, I think when you are especially saying, that's why they are hired 40% teaching time.

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Kristine Aquino: Oh, sorry. I think it's is it. Okay? Now. yeah.

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Kristine Aquino: it's saying on my end that my connection is unstable. So sorry. But is it? it's it's okay at the moment. Yeah. yes. So yeah. So even if you know, I I had a 40, 40, 20 position. But yeah, as an Ec, you are going to be teaching a lot. And you do kind of start

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Kristine Aquino: to feel like us doing less and less research or kind of you know, this is the time that you watch trying to develop your research profile, but

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Kristine Aquino: because you mean you've got the full time continuing position. But then you've got to teach a lot. And that kind of 40, 40, 20 doesn't really capture. It's really like 70% teaching, especially when you start. Because that's why they're hiring a level B to do to do a lot of teaching and it's really been only the last you know.

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Kristine Aquino: couple maybe last year, also, like coming back from maternity leave and and the kind of easing back in. But then, you know, obviously, there was Covid and all the changes the T, so it just it sometimes hasn't felt like the teaching has East. Despite that I've been at Uts now. in the position. And now I am seeing a lecturer. to. Yeah, that the teaching has eased. And I really think it's, you know.

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Kristine Aquino: the state of the sector at the moment, and these kind of teaching intensive positions that they some places are kind of starting to roll out. yeah, they've been flagged as quite

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Kristine Aquino: problematic, you know. Given that they're not giving time. for research. But yeah, it's I can certainly

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Kristine Aquino: relate that. You know. You start to feel like what's happening to my research. I think for me if I didn't get the A. Rc. Discovery with my collaborators, which was awarded about last, I think, last year.

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Kristine Aquino: and you know, during the whole Covid situation. And I was a new mom. I felt like, I always like, if I don't do any more. If I'm not gonna start doing research again, I will leave Academia because it was getting to that point in a whole mix of other situations that you know were intersecting. yeah, but

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Kristine Aquino: I you know, lucky to have gotten the as to now be able to do a bit more. really refocus on, on research. And then at Ets. We're lucky to, you know, if you do it, bring in a certain amount of income research income, you get converted to research intensive for a few years. So yeah, this her. But you know, it's that waiting game definitely. It's like

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Kristine Aquino: you start to get scared that you no longer a researcher.

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yeah, thanks for that. And again. I I can totally relate. Maybe I should just briefly mention that I only got my first ongoing position. once I my age, but 10 and 12 years out of my Phd, so I went from research position to research position. So

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3 admittedly 3 year contracts and 2 year contracts. But it took quite a long time, and before getting the position I have now, I was thinking exactly the same thing. That's probably it with academia for me. If I don't get that position. So it's not. This is probably a horrendous example, because it's so many more years, but so this very a conundrum that you think? Oh, my God, this is it! I need to get out.

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I think this is really quite common and and something I would say is that even if you make that step outside of Academia and like Virginia, and I'm very keen to to hear what you say about this transition. it's not You might think it's a defeat, but you know it's I would say it's not, it's not. And I mean, I let Virginia speak to that. But yeah, it's really we. We constantly kind of beat ourselves up.

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not doing enough. Nothing good enough or nothing. The right thing. So so it's if you can, and find strategies to not do that. That's really important for your mental health and for your sense of self and some. But I hand over to you, you know.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): Good thanks, thanks, Martina. I I I completely agree because I I got to that point as well, because I did the same thing. That happened with you, matina way. It was absolutely amazing to get a postdoc and then get another postdog. But in that time, because of the insecurity. The the job in security is that postdocs have. Because you you know, it's a 3 year fixed term, or, you know, 2 years weeks term.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): At that point I was like, I do not want to keep moving university. I'm a single parent. I am a migrant. I am a whole lot of things, Christine. I was just like completely relating when you were talking about. You know those responsibilities overseas you like.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): Okay, I it's this is not just about me or my child. This is about me and a whole lot of other people who relying on me to get money. It's not just about a Koreans about making money as well. So I did have those. And I worried so much about job insecurity throughout my academic career. And one of the things that I thought I want to make if I can pass that things. I was really anxious about it for a lot of for a lot of my career.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and I remember like applying even for decrease, because I I was part of those people when the decorates for escaping. So that tells you how old I am. and I remember applying for it, and being very being very anxious about even if I get the Dkra, you know. is it going to pay for my? You know what I mean? Like all of those anxieties were there.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And so I wanted to like one of the things I thought, this is the thing that I'll pass on. I know some of this job insecurities. They really, you know, cause especially this, this climate that we're in at the moment. The economic climate is really hard. But

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I feel like, you know, like there will always be another job that comes around. So I feel like when you get to do a Phd. Is so highly qualified that it never. You will never get to that point where you're like, I'm I'm unemployed, and that's it. So a job will always come. It's just like being really strategic about if it's coming to an end, not stressing, but drive that being strategic, because I think I stressed more than I strategized and I always ended up luckily in in

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some positions, because one thing that I was really good at, because my per because of my personality as well. Mostly I'm a very personable person, and I make

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): connections very easily and very quickly. So the way people always ready out of the world works to come and say, Hey, like I heard this, and I've heard that, like you want to do it. Which actually brings me to another point. I think mentors are absolutely fantastic to have in academia or any career, for that matter. But I think one of the other really critical people to have like support is a sponsor

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): like a sponsor is different from a mentor in that is that a mentor sort of guides you in your Korea. They like, you know, like they take you on as a protege, and they sort of help you like strategize your career and things like that. And that's amazing as sponsored someone. So what I say is a mentor is someone who tells you

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): what you need to know, as one says, someone who tells the world what they need to know about you. So that is that person that opens doors that actually have that that capability

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): to open those for you. has the connections, usually someone higher up. And as matina and And with Andrew as what was saying as well in terms of those academics who are not just all about themselves, but they all about building you up. That's just one. And those are really good people to have in your corner, especially if you're in those kind of research positions, full fixed term contracts that you tend to be a little bit more precarious, because that's what I found. Even when I had

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): some Korea interruptions in that time I still was doing something because those sponsors just came through and they'd be like, Okay, fine. I've got, you know, $20,000 for like a couple of months that you can do while you look for work, and that just held you over until and in that time they like it's published, publish, publish, and you, you know you do do that as well. So I think sponsor is absolutely critical. so my advice is, don't stress too much if it even if you're

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): a fixed term condition, a position strategize rather than stress. But also

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I know it sounds terrible, because I usually say, like

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): saying, get find sponsors, or let like try to get sponsors. It. It puts the honest on you, as a person rather than organizations, to, to to create situations or circumstances where finding sponsors becomes part of the organizational responsibility. But I know I can do. And that's what we're doing outside of Academia. And in my role at the moment. part of the research that we're doing. We just got a huge grant from the government

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): to research racially marginalized women in leadership in Australia. And that's one of the things that we're proposing with organizations that you should really

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): make sure that sponsorship is something that's in built into organizations because it's really one of those things that really catapults people's careers. So I could do in a slightly different kind of space. But again, still, something that needs to be done, because that's where that's where it is.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): But I did get into those moments where it was just like I'm so concerned I can't do it. My daughter and I are going to be out on the streets any moment now. And and then I go to a point where I it felt like I was publishing and still perishing.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and and that was very disheartening, and at that point I it felt like, I can't do this. My mental health was suffering. And again, like I said, I'm a single parent, and I really couldn't afford to do that.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And so I sat down and decided what I wanted to do, and it just felt like I wasn't getting what I needed to get out of academia. And then someone just said to me, Hey, like Have you thought of doing this or that? And I thought, Oh, not really like. I see myself as an academic, and I I'm a better academic than I am anything else. And this moments when I wake up in my current role when I have to, because now I have to manage people, I have to do all these things. I'm like, I'm a better academic than I am anything else. And there's moments when I wake up in my current role when I have to, because now I have to manage people, I have to do all these things. I'm like, oh, I'm a better academic than I'm a director.

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but it's still

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): the transition out of Academia was quite.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): It was a very interesting transition, and there were moments that I felt I had failed to leave Academia, and it felt like cause. I I I've always wanted to be an academic from as long as I can remember my so like I remember even early conversations with my mom when I was still living in Zimbabwe and

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): my mom kind of going. I can see you in that ivory tower, sitting in your office and doing nothing but thinking and writing papers. so I've always wanted to do that. And so, leaving Academia felt like I was failing. But now I look back and I'm like, it's probably one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life, because I get to actually see real world change. Like I, I I work with organizations. And I literally like.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I'm talking to Ceos, and diversity and inclusion leads. And all of these people, and really getting an opportunity to apply all of the stuff that I used to publish for many, many years, that I thought one person read it, and then you meet someone in a Dni role that says, Oh, I read your paper and you like. What like that was a sociology paper. What were you doing reading it? but it's it's kind of so seeing the work out in the real world, and seeing that I like doing that applied research.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): So I think again, just keeping a very open mind. Sometimes the universe takes you in in, in directions that you you never, ever dreamt of like. There was no point in my life that I thought I would be where I am today, like if someone had told me 2,023 you would be here. You'd be a director of

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): what? Like the peak body, you know Australia on the resident inclusion stuff I would be like. You're lying. I would have seen myself at this point in my career, being a professor at some university in Australia.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): Nothing else. So keep it very open mind. Keep it very like a growth mindset. Take opportunities when when you can get them. Even sometimes when it just looks like this is wasteful. It's really not even when you're in a full time teaching role. It's some of those little things that matter. It's not always the big stuff, and don't switch to the big big stuff so much.

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Hmm.

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right, thank you again. So many a lot of wisdom there. Thank you, Virginia. And I mean, I think it started off with. You know that that very reminder that we are people. Also. We have responsibilities outside of our work, and we do have children in the course of our lives. So some of us do

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And and yeah, to keep the bigger picture in mind. But also I mean, this is all to do with our identity as researchers and who we are and who we dream we might be. And I mean, I I didn't claim to be an academic, I mean, I was left

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asking questions. But yeah, but I would have been happily ending up. you know, I did work in the community sector myself for a few years in Australia, back in Austria, back in Europe. So yeah, as as as Virginia's pathway shows that. it's very important to not think in terms of failure, but in terms of opportunity. And it's okay to be opportunistic as interviewed. But once as I'm

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me la trobe research on my path when any tips for young for Eci's, and and reading this into your thinking, oh, my God, this is all about being opportunistic, and then felt shameful about it. But it's not. It's not a bad thing for me of the nesting, in the sense of just, you know. Look out, be ready to be flexible and be open minded, and so on, and there's lots more that you said, but maybe I like to give also enter, and Christine a chance to respond.

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And then also, there was, of course, lots of advice. So feel free to yeah, chip in with any more ideas for support. So another thing that Virginia, that you just said is one

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these institutional supports that are often

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not available within universities where the private sector is, for example, much better in providing these supports. we don't even provide so in many institutions for them. Provide support for vicarious trauma through research. but expect research is just just get on with their trauma and so on. So as organizations, we can actually one

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ere

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can support you. it's okay to kind of instigate some change from below in the sense of asking for some groups, you know, that are dedicated to. And so I try to to to the people that you trust, and that you feel you care of these conversations with Rise. You know the need for for an support or mental system, if it's not implied, so ready.

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But maybe I hand over again to not an android Christine, whether you want to

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suggest more about support systems and how we can. yeah, find those

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seeks us at.

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Kristine Aquino: I mean, you know already some great great ideas there from Virginia and in from Andrew as well, I think, yeah, I I I definitely you know that kind of

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Kristine Aquino: remaining flexible. And then, yeah, seeing where there are opportunities for support that are not, say, say, in the context of academia, you know. that are not necessarily just in academia. So for me, you know, having worked doing research in the community sector. before I became a full time. Academic.

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Kristine Aquino: you know.

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Kristine Aquino: I've been strategic in kind of ensuring that I'm still doing a lot of community engaged research. And that's in part because I really enjoy it. but as well, you know,

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Kristine Aquino: having worked in that sector for like a decade. you know, I I think. yeah, I have a also a strong support system there. And so that kind of for me also feels like

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Kristine Aquino: I'm not stuck. Should I decide that I want to, you know, go back to applied research. And yeah, it's funny, because when I was applying for

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Kristine Aquino: you know, academic jobs, I kind of thought that that applied experience wasn't really working to my advantage. Because when you see

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Kristine Aquino: you know, positions for Level B, or, you know, post docs. They want long lists of academic publications, and I had spent my Phd just trying to write my Phd, not writing journal articles. I write my thesis, but as well. I was obviously doing commissioned research. And so they were, you know, kind of

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Kristine Aquino: reports and things like that which

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Kristine Aquino: didn't carry as much value as though I think it's changing a little bit now. But yeah, so. But but I think actually it is it. It's something that now is working to to my advantage in that I've got

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Kristine Aquino: a solid network in that sector, and that is able to kind of keep my research, you know, grounded in both applied and kind of theoretical and academic context. and kind of makes me. Yeah, you know, kind of safety net to say, Okay, if it doesn't quite work out, I'm still doing research that applies in

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Kristine Aquino: kind of real world context or academia is also real world. But and you know the kind of turn at the moment towards with a lot of institutions now wanting you to demonstrate as an academic your

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Kristine Aquino: the impact of your of your research, you know. So say, especially that social impact.

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Kristine Aquino: Yeah, I think, it's something that might be presenting a lot of opportunities for Ecos that

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Kristine Aquino: perhaps you know. So it's not always just going to be about your publication track record. You know, I think it's starting to diversify what impactful research means. And yeah, looking into those kinds of opportunities.

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I think, thanks, Chris. I'm sorry I'm losing my voice. It looks like a mute. Can you hear me?

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Okay? that's actually a good segue, if you don't mind, Andrew, because you've given us lots of support ideas already earlier. That's a good segue. Also into that cracks issue of how we maintain relationships with

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erez agmoni communities that we research with. So beyond the career building, really, at the basic level of ethics, I mean, we are asked to show impact now, demonstrate impact with our research and sorry. This is very ocean eccentric. So we in Australia and 101,

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I think, also, yeah, I asked to demonstrate impact with our research. And in Europe it's also things that maybe not everyone in the world yet, and probably depending on the neoliberal level. because often it's an impact. It's not quite the impact that a social scientists we always, many of us always try to achieve, make a change in society. So now it's often a very metrified

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impact exercise. Like to distinguish that. But the point being, when you go from these contract positions from a one year to 2 year position. Or you're doing teaching. How do you maintain ethically relationships with your research participants? How can you be an engaged research? If you, you know, don't even know where your job, where your money comes from the next year. So do you have any advice on on this question? Maybe one of you. So yeah, how do you? How do you sustain 100

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believable, real relationships with people out there that you ultimately yeah, research with.

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mostly be honest about it.

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I wouldn't be honest with the people that you're working with, that you're better non-enduring or potentially in a manager

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job position.

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And that's really important, because they think the universities of a lot of communities that I work with the universities are these massive, well-funded organizations that have got endless resources and and

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sorry.

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encouraging people to realize that your position in that institution is

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it isn't one of the power. It's a lot of resources, and may not actually be enduring. And just be really honest about that.

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that there is a way to. And and and hopefully, you know, you can build an ongoing relationship that is based on honesty and integrity that lasts longer than the.

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And it may be that okay, you did a project for the community and

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your work situation has changed. But you're keeping in contact with them just informally to say, Hi, how's it going and

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honoring the relationship you did have? And maybe at some stage as might pop up again the second way. And this is really important for an early career researcher. Join the network right? That's associated with that particular field like there might be some organization or research committee, or something that's associated with that particular thing that you're involved with

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and join that.

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And you get your employer to pay for it. And what that means is you're automatically and better than that network.

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And that will do 2 things. It will be. It means that that is a network of context for future jobs.

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but also gives you as a researcher an opportunity to contribute as somebody who has set on funding committees and employment things for

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25 years. Sorry

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when we're making a distinction. We're on about going somebody or giving somebody a scholarship, and we're making a choice. And we're looking at two-step Tvs that are

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pretty gam equal. But people are excellent.

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What's going to make the difference is, who's the contributor

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who contribute

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to a social network, who contributes to the workplace environment, who contributes to

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peer support

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for bringing on the next generation.

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And every time

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I will pick the person, not necessarily with the most publications. But if I'm putting them in an environment that I had a right

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ship with, or even admire what? And one of my own teams, I want somebody who is going to contribute to be good people.

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So that's one of the things that you can actually do is really to queer research. You can lay the foundations for that. And that is, you do not walk away from relationships, even if it means just the occasional e-mail, the occasional phone call. And certainly it's join those kind of networks and committees that you can make a contribution, and you can put it on your Cp. And say, I've actually helped

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with the discipline or helped with this particular.

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And it's low cost. It's high yields. But also, most importantly, it's not.

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Thanks. That's yeah, really, really great advice. And if I can to that also as a I mean, I'm gonna say our personality comes into we as a research and as an academic, and so on. definitely. What I would say in retrospect is that I probably felt a bit too humble about being only the lowly worm on a project, and therefore you know as much as I was putting all the work in, and we had many more hours of contact.

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I probably didn't realise that. Yes, I was the person who had probably the best understanding, most chats with the research participants, and so on. And only late when I realised, yeah, they remember those. And I kept in touch. The kind of hierarchy in the project didn't matter, because it's about these relationships you build. It doesn't matter whether you're a lowly, a worm or

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further up and have the kind of bigger name on the project. So really take these relationships very seriously, and, as you said, nurture them as much as your time allows.

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I haven't been reading out the chat to you, but I? maybe some of you have been reading along so actually has made a few contributions to say yes, with so much more than research careers, I think it's easy to forget that we are human at the end of the day.

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And, This academic is just one aspect of our lives. Thank you, Virginia for acknowledging this, and on the being flexible point. It's so important to have clear boundaries and not beat ourselves up when we can't be flexible for varying reasons, saying, no, it can be just as important as skill, absolutely and arguably more important in some cases. So really like the advice about things to teaching about how we protect our time and energy, too. Yes, absolutely as in I just. I think it just happened last week where? the

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Hdr representative came into my room because I've got these current rollers and actually, I've been in our department and and said, this semester I'm only doing. I'm only doing 4 to. I'm only doing 4 to. It's not like last time as well. It seeks across 2 institutions or 3 institutions, and and it seemed to be, I mean, we keep hearing about that. How Hds do this kind of multiple jobs across institutions. But it was really the most excessive I've ever heard of, and she and it was partly to do with her not

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feeling. She can send out to even the people offering her teaching because the obviously needed the income. But it starts there. you know, you build your teaching record, which is important. But you don't need to do 6 cheats. in semester. Yeah, you So really again, keep your like. Make these calculations and and and as much as you can. If you have the opportunity. Then say, now, if you can afford it outside, this is like this, yeah.

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I haven't even asked you how many Hdr candidates are in the room. And how many

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non ajack candidates in the rooms? I can ask how many of you are currently. in a degree, doing a degree. So doing? A Phd, or

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1, 2, 3, 4, and and the rest of you I've identifying as you see us more or less. Yeah, thank you. So any questions, please feel free to. Yeah.

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and thank you so much. Everyone for the really great advice. So far. So one thing I've been hearing from Virginia Andrew. Maybe more has been about the importance of, you know, the social network where it's like sponsors.

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mentors, and so on. And I was wondering, basically, if we could be a little bit more specific about the particular types of

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positions for people that we should get to know, especially as early researchers. So I'm thinking, as a graduate student. I remember mentors are saying, Hey, you should get to know the administrative people in your department because they help you lubricate so much of the social relations

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and then initiative stuff.

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I'm thinking. Early on, you know, as early week career researchers go into a first job, whether it's posts up or 10 in track job.

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What are equivalents for that? What are people

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in a university or your peers that you should get to know?

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Good question? Who wants to answer that first

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can out of the

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 Christine with genius.

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Kristine Aquino: It's like, what have I been? I'm I'm probably not a great worker. But but yeah, it. It is important to have, you know, to start to establish networks. for me, I think it's, you know. Say, in the University I like I

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Kristine Aquino: I'm probably not so interested in learning or to in not learning, but like kind of networking with those high up like for me, it's more like

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Kristine Aquino: networking with the people whose work? I like in terms of research and teaching as well. so yeah, like establishing establishing relationships with with people who I can learn from or potentially collaborate with for for research and and teaching. And that's the same for

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Kristine Aquino: Outside of, you know your own institution. yeah, for me. It's not necessarily. I've not seen

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Kristine Aquino: so much value in in kind of

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Kristine Aquino: trying to get to know the Dean or something like that. Like for me, it's more the kind of work that I can actually learn from and develop you know my own work or collaborate?

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): thanks.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): Yeah. I, I would say, I would say, a similar thing as well for me, i've, I,

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I, I knew very early on in my career that I would never go into sort of academic, any sort of academic management kind of role, because that was never anything that I was interested in.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I never thought that I would. I'm a manager, and it was so myself as a manager, but just an academic. So E, even when I interacted with people that we higher up in that sort of kind of in that sort of way, it was always in that more collaborative. research, a mental kind of kind of way that they would. you know, help

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): for support to my career in that way. So I've never. I've never really wanted to do that.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): But my, my for me. I also sort mentors out in industry and also in the community. So I worked with people like I did some. I made sure that I I was also on some kinds of research that we say through some government.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): like government funded projects. also in community.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): research. I was very. I'm very deeply embedded in my community, for example. and I think it's one of those things like Andrew was saying earlier about

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): really kind of finding the network for me. That's been a really huge, important part of my of my academic career. The things that I, the research that I did was really located in my own community. So I'm one of those people who kind of the inside that kind of thing matter the lot

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And so even finding mentors within that those networks weren't necessarily academics. for me was important, because it kept me grounded in the research that I was doing and making sure that I'm actually doing research. That's not

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): causing harm more harm than good, because sometimes even

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I know this is this is, this could be problematic. But even as an insider you might have this blind as in as in. If you're not that deeply embedded in your community. to know that this is work that I'm actually doing. That's that's making a difference, or that's that's somehow elevating the voices of my community. rather than like me, just being

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): talking as if I'm talking on behalf of my community. So that was really really important for me. And I'm still doing that even in my current current role as well. So it was for me. It was that thing of

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I found

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): because I'm that kind of person. I found mentors where I could and

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): anybody who I found was feeding my soul in some kind of way. I know that sounds really like opportunistic, but it was. That's what I did. And I still kind of do that even now. even though now I'm I'm sort of seen more, is is as the mental myself, and I'm supposed to be kind of mentoring and sponsoring as a particularly young

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): racially marginalized women is is sort of where my my focus is a lot of the times. But yeah, it's just collaborating. I think the main thing is just to have that sort of idea of where you want to head in your in your career while you're you know you're being you, you

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): sort of being off, I'll put you. I don't think being opportunistic is a terrible thing. So I used to think that way. It's a terrible thing. But it's actually a good thing, because it means you're just you. You're seeing opportunities where they are, and you're grabbing them.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): But it's also having that sort of broader idea, you know. Sometimes it's just like, I think this sounds really interesting. I think it's something that I might want to do in future sometimes things that I did in my past, because I what my best friend, who's also now left Academia We were sitting there at the day we're like, remember, when we did that training and in Parameta. And we're like, Oh, yeah, that was a long time ago when we we put that training because we should like we can totally use it now. And we connected with the networks that we that we

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): you know that we made back then, but it was something that we did, just because somebody asked us, and we didn't think it would go anyway. So even though seemingly kind of

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): unconnected things. Sometimes, if you've got the the, the, the space to do it, because I mean I. And and actually, it's absolutely right. Part of it is actually learning to say no, because if you get like, the line is very thin between like, then over brooing and burning yourself out and and grabbing opportunities. Sometimes opportunities are meant to be grabbed. And it's okay. And you, you shouldn't be yourself up about it.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): But also it's just keeping, I think, keeping a keeping a growth, mindset. just letting yourself know that I need to keep learning, not just about my subject matter.

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): an area of my Sme or subject matter expertise, but also like just generally knowing how to to grow in other ways out in way I could, I could end up. So I think, yeah, it's it's it's just keeping that growth mindset and

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and learning to say, No, I I I'm still learning. Actually, I so you said, like, what can we do in terms of the strategies learning to say? No. I literally had a meeting with my C. Or yesterday, where she said, you still need to learn to say no, for Jenny and I like that many years into my career, and I'm still not so perfect to it. So again again, like, I said, not beating yourself up if you don't say no when you should, because sometimes opportunities just look so good to that. You don't want to miss them. But

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Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): yeah, I think, yeah.

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bye. Thank you. And yes, it keeps coming up. Be gentle to yourself. Yeah, and keep keep. Keep yourself kind of mentally and physically. siphon and yeah, Andrew.

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Kristine Aquino: Sorry we can't hear Andrew again.

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Sorry. My fault, my fault. I've just always suppose it. So it's yeah, all good. All good.

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Okay, wonderful.

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 So you built

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people in the room? Yes, sorry about to stop it first. But again, first of all, just realize the is really bad for mental health, mental health. But you're constantly getting getting assessed in it good enough, and you're in this kind of passive, reactive mode of time. any fear for a large number of years. And so we see a lot of students come out who don't realize their value.

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And

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at the most basic level your value is, you are the most up-to-date person on that planet at that particular point of time in that particular area.

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You have value. and some people want to want to exploit that and you just have to be aware of that. But if you want to get out of that passive mode and into into into the active mode, what are some things that you can do? And I'm going to suggest 3 different strategies. The first is, look for people who are doing the stuff that you like to do.

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You give him a call.

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If you do send them an email. Say, I'm going to call.

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But like a personal doctor, suddenly, now.

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that email should say, I'm really interested in the kind of

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how are you

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in your work and how you got to move.

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what you're doing? And

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I'm really interested in a similar area and following a career path.

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Would you mind if we could have a quick conversation about how you how you got there? And because I really like to follow in in footsteps. Yes, you're sucking up big time.

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Okay, you're massaging the ego to get half an hour of their time, and if you do that.

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give it to you.

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but you'd be really stripped on your time. You time manage the call, and at the end of that not only have you got some useful information, but you've introduced yourself.

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There's somebody who is socially engaged.

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You can time manage because you've been aware of

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of the call. Who's acknowledged that person's value.

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but also, they now know about the order

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and what your career go. And that's actually what you're trying to communicate. You're actually trying to communicate. I'm here. I've got these skills. And this is my timeline

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that does a really really effective strategy. So who do you? So you talk to people?

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So I do the kinds of things that you want to do. Secondly, you You go to workshops, you go to small, tight groups, conferences like this for a for some.

396
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but a huge and and and the relationships here camp most of the time of fleeting. If you can get into environment sometimes it's one of those courses.

397
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We you in a room with people for 3 or 4 days. Hopefully, you will learn a little bit more than coriander as a as genetic right? We're in your room for 3 or 4 days, you actually built more enduring relationships. And you're building relationships with people in your middle.

398
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They look for those kind of environments. We. they're either skilled, based on topic based

399
01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:15.889
And thirdly. look for people who are playing the research game.

400
01:15:16.770 --> 01:15:26.710
So one of the best and effective ways that I've seen for people to rapidly establish a negative. A career

401
01:15:27.530 --> 01:15:28.400
is

402
01:15:28.810 --> 01:15:33.860
not to go for a job, but to sidle up with some really productive researchers

403
01:15:35.850 --> 01:15:40.169
that my my new partner is exactly that she is

404
01:15:41.390 --> 01:15:44.490
5 years.

405
01:15:45.750 --> 01:15:52.989
Yeah. But the way she did that was she actually worked with some really active research groups.

406
01:15:53.510 --> 01:16:00.650
How do you do that? Well, first of all, you know who the leaders of your field are? That's really important. The other really important thing to know

407
01:16:01.620 --> 01:16:05.219
as as the time frames for research graphs.

408
01:16:05.670 --> 01:16:08.239
Lin research cracks are at go in

409
01:16:08.370 --> 01:16:12.809
when the results are announced, and therefore, when the research grabs a risk

410
01:16:13.530 --> 01:16:14.679
in this one

411
01:16:14.850 --> 01:16:19.649
that time that you engage with those leaders is when they start

412
01:16:19.750 --> 01:16:21.680
to plan the research.

413
01:16:22.050 --> 01:16:33.940
So you think about 2 2 funding cycles out from where you want to start. and you go and introduce yourself and say, this is what I've got to offer, and here is when I've got to offer it.

414
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And then when they're writing research, anybody who's written a research Brad knows that most of the work happens in the last week. Oh, my God! Who am I going to get? You will be top of mind.

415
01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:59.900
and what that means it? It might take a little while, but you are then in a, in a research environment and a research environment that is really good at longer term grants. So you will be in an in an environment where

416
01:17:01.530 --> 01:17:12.129
you'll have some longer-term funding. You might have 3 or 4 years funding, but you've got somebody whose job it is to look after the next grant. But that also gives you the time to a be productive

417
01:17:12.970 --> 01:17:14.640
right?

418
01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:20.560
and in a research center show that your value in terms of a team member is.

419
01:17:21.650 --> 01:17:32.000
but also then try to get on on on the next brand. Now there are some disadvantages. You may not actually have the joy of the postdoc to write all those wonderful papers that you wanted to do out of your Phd.

420
01:17:32.960 --> 01:17:44.169
There are some disadvantages there, and to tend to be working on somebody else's pet project. But if you've been proactive and approached those people, you're much more likely to get into a project

421
01:17:44.210 --> 01:17:45.950
right that aligns with people

422
01:17:46.430 --> 01:17:52.120
there does this work absolutely. Yeah. I spent

423
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12 very miserable years, very, very, very great.

424
01:17:56.760 --> 01:18:00.330
being a I'm a great and and and the first-grade student.

425
01:18:00.770 --> 01:18:03.980
And that's one of the strategies that got me out.

426
01:18:04.870 --> 01:18:11.919
But that said it doesn't always work. So what happened was because I we wrote a research grant

427
01:18:12.330 --> 01:18:17.260
myself and a colleague, and we handed it to 2 senior professors. One of them was married to the Prime Minister

428
01:18:17.490 --> 01:18:41.449
of New Zealand, so reasonably and influential. What name them right? Because it was about. Swag them off And we we've worked this, and we've got 5 years with the funding. And it was fantastic. But we've we've written that we put and fully funded Phds for ourselves. Yeah, Steve, position, we're going to be on full salary to do a catch to unmute it off. The guy couldn't manage a team.

429
01:18:42.140 --> 01:18:45.899
and within 4 months of getting the.

430
01:18:46.310 --> 01:18:57.310
And so, even if you do all that strategies realize that you are the valuable exit, and at the end of the day you're accountable to yourself. So no, there's always an option. No, your own money.

431
01:18:57.910 --> 01:18:58.980
Hmm!

432
01:18:59.190 --> 01:19:18.350
Right advice again. We I've had that. So listening to you, and also thinking back of your question about who to talk to my answer would be, and I was way, totally, not as strategic thinking about funding cycles. But I did always talk to the people who did interesting work, and my second postdoc came out of

433
01:19:18.450 --> 01:19:26.860
something I did. Basically, I'm paid, which is joining a kind of social justice initiative funded

434
01:19:26.860 --> 01:19:42.690
the Pilot project at Northern Uni and with people in labor laws of different disciplines. I was attracted to that. It was about social injustice. It was about temporary market and work, so all fit beside not being paid for it, because everyone else was doing it as part of their paid position. 250

435
01:19:42.690 --> 01:20:01.200
I had a small one small child at the time. maybe 2. You already. Yeah, I think it's yeah. The second ones are constantly feeling guilty all about not being enough of a parent. But it was too good an opportunity to miss and not in terms of. I wasn't thinking career building, but it was a great project that I could be part of.

436
01:20:01.200 --> 01:20:16.920
and we wrote a couple of publications out of it, and out of this came a second postdoc, because then these so 2 of these people invited me along to be a research fell on their A/C project. So that's the second project, and that literally comes just came out of 101

437
01:20:16.920 --> 01:20:28.719
interest somehow, carving at the time, and it was worth it once. You are in a department, I would say, and I didn't do that when I was a postdoc. In neither of the 2 institutions is.

438
01:20:28.720 --> 01:20:36.009
try to find the people who talk about Hdrs. Eci so obviously care who understand that.

439
01:20:36.010 --> 01:20:59.189
you know this is a group that is different from people who have positions. Yeah. So find the people who somehow advocate to champion Eci and Hdr methods. Yeah, it might be an easier one group in an organization. Maybe you, the person who can start an Eci group, you know, it could just be lunchtime catch up every month or so in your institution.

440
01:20:59.190 --> 01:21:08.550
So I mean, that's partly kind of networking up. Yeah, go to the people who do interesting stuff as far as, and and also

441
01:21:08.570 --> 01:21:38.240
networking horizontally. So you have to support that you can then also use when you have really bad experiences. And I mean, I I also invite you to talk to challenges, maybe not on how you've mastered them next. but yeah, this test you will inevitably will have negative experiences. So and ideally, you have by then a group, locally or transitionally, you know, it might be an ask your 5 reliance at this to our group or so, that you can vent your issues with, you know that.

442
01:21:38.240 --> 01:21:42.229
providing that safe spice. So you can actually talk about what if you experienced

443
01:21:42.230 --> 01:21:48.610
and possibly work out something? Yeah, So maybe if. And this has questions

444
01:21:48.690 --> 01:22:13.720
in the room at the moment, and I just like to move on to Yeah, that question of challenges that you've experienced and how you have mastered them. And you know, what advice would it give on on that basis. So anything that you have experienced on the way I mean, you mentioned not getting the jobs that you applied for, or maybe not getting the funding or not. Yeah. What's your advice? How do you pick yourself up again?

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anyone who wants to start with that?

446
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:32.029
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her):  I'll start again about picking yourself up again. because I I think that's something that's that's really

447
01:22:32.210 --> 01:22:47.260
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): important. And I I I found that what made what really made a difference for me was just keeping, I I guess. And and this sounds really kind of like a fluffy thing to say, keeping your eye on the ball in terms of

448
01:22:47.270 --> 01:23:08.790
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): just just that recognition that really. And and I didn't. I didn't know this at the time, but it's really not about you. As an individual, it's about what's happening in the wide Sector, University sector, the change, etc. It's just yes, you are experiencing it as an individual on the other end. But it's really not about you, and I think that I took it very personally for a long time.

449
01:23:08.850 --> 01:23:15.410
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and one of the things that we that I found really disheartening was I failed? I was publishing and still perishing.

450
01:23:15.540 --> 01:23:18.950
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): and so it just felt really personal But but

451
01:23:19.300 --> 01:23:28.040
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): the minute I sort of shifted my headset and just kind of like I said, not not really sweating it too much, and just

452
01:23:28.350 --> 01:23:51.489
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): just keep persevering, I think, I think, because there's no other option. If you don't, if you don't persevere, then you just you you just give up, and it's it's it's really not that much of an option. And like I said at this point, I I think I can say this with the degree of certainty for many of us who are in the room. We have a Phd. You're never going to find yourself in a situation where you never have a job ever

453
01:23:51.580 --> 01:24:01.219
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): so, even when those doors are shut in your in your face, and it's it feels very disheartening. It's just really persevering and keeping keeping an eye on the ball.

454
01:24:01.490 --> 01:24:06.040
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): but, like I one of the things that I just say, it's also my diversifying your

455
01:24:06.070 --> 01:24:24.209
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): like, I think, like android saying that diversifying that skill that's skill based because I I for me, it feels part of the reason how I actually ended up out of academia wasn't just because of my academic published publications. They were a big part of it.

456
01:24:24.210 --> 01:24:45.719
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): because somehow, my, my, my, my research, found its way outside of academia. I don't know how. so I can't give advice on that. He just found this way out, and but but part of it may have been because I'd work with some government departments I'd worked with not for profits like I said I was embedded in my community.

457
01:24:45.720 --> 01:25:10.920
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): So even though I really wanted to be an academic, and I was focusing on applying for academic positions at the time. I remember one of my colleagues saying to me, maybe it's also the field that you're researching in, because a lot of my research is just primarily in sociology of race. And it really at the time that I was doing this they really weren't as many positions. It really wasn't like, I feel like now, it's like a this like it's a discernible kind of

458
01:25:11.360 --> 01:25:36.249
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): body of work in Australia at the time that I was doing it. It was there, but it wasn't a huge thing, and so there weren't positions like you get in the in the Uk United States, you get a professor of of race relations or something like that that wasn't happening in Australia. So it was a bit disheartening. but because I had a skill base that was a little bit diverse. again, my networks way across, not just like limited to Academia.

459
01:25:36.250 --> 01:26:03.480
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I, yeah. It was easier. So when this opportunity came up at the Australian Human Rights Commission, and I and I had actually gone to the Australian Human Rights Commission and did an internship with them, and I was so highly skilled at that point, and I did like a couple of months internship with them. part time, and at the end of it they were like, Hey, like you're so like good. And we happen to have a position that's vacant within the race discrimination team. Do you want it?

460
01:26:03.480 --> 01:26:14.709
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And I said, Yes, and from then on someone had hunted me, and I found myself someone head on. And so I like it just kind of catapulted from this. So it's I. I feel like keeping that open mind and

461
01:26:14.800 --> 01:26:24.610
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): persevering, because in all honesty I think my advice today is honestly, you don't know where you end up. It's always good to have a really good solid plan.

462
01:26:24.720 --> 01:26:44.760
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): But it's also good to know that that plan. Like, you know, anything can happen. Opportunities come in. They show themselves up in ways that you would never have anticipated. I ended up in Dca because I started off They asked me to be on the panel to write One of the landmark reports in Australia on racism at work

463
01:26:44.770 --> 01:27:05.330
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): that hasn't been done in industry. And I said yes, and from them on they were like, Hey, this is happening. And I ended up in this role. So it's the this kind of opportunities will present themselves, and the more you put yourself out there, the more you you find yourself in, in, in sort of those situations where opportunities actually present themselves. so I think

464
01:27:05.330 --> 01:27:29.350
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I I know it can be very disheartening, especially when you at the beginning of your Korea. And you're really excited. And you're like, Hey, I've got this thing. I'm very highly educated now, like, you know. Look at me and I'm gonna go. And then all you're getting is casual teaching and really short term contract. And you're publishing. And you're like this is not happening. my thing that I was telling one of my main keys the other day, I said.

465
01:27:29.390 --> 01:27:54.410
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): you are putting in the work right now. Trust me on this. It will pay out. It doesn't matter like it might be a couple of years down the line. 2, 3 years. You will pay out. I've never come across anybody who's done the work with, you know, done all the things that Andre has been really fantastic with this advice today. Very generous. and you you can't do any of those things that we're talking about today and still find yourself.

466
01:27:54.450 --> 01:28:11.500
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): you know, not nothing's happening. Nothing's paying. So I think. Yeah, just diversifying your your skilled base will sort of it. It will mitigate some of that disheartening kind of when you, when you get getting to that sense where you find yourself a little bit dejected.

467
01:28:11.550 --> 01:28:17.739
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): it really I I can't emphasize this enough. It just keep added.

468
01:28:17.890 --> 01:28:25.859
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And if it's not happening, look elsewhere like this to me, this is my, if it's not happening specifically.

469
01:28:25.890 --> 01:28:54.809
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): look elsewhere. There is also life. After I could think, yeah, plus. I don't think you out all ever really leave the Academy anyway, once you're in it, I don't think you ever really leave it. I'm still on a Rc. Grant. I'm still supervising students. I'm still being invited to come and give guest lectures. I'm still doing doing all of this stuff, all of this stuff. So If you sleep last night sometimes, but I'm doing things that I feel like I enjoy, and I'm still keeping. My.

470
01:28:54.810 --> 01:29:23.659
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): my, those, my, those academic connections live. But at the same time I feel like I'm doing this real world research. That's making a difference. So keep an up in mind. Have a growth mindset diversify your skills base, keep at it. I know this is all. Putting it all on you, you you which I feel like I'm I'm being a hypocrite right now, because now I'm usually about, hey, the organization you need to help people do this. But, like I said, universities are different

471
01:29:24.020 --> 01:29:53.750
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): sort of organizations, which really that that's a conversation for a different day, because what we would really want is us sitting here and actually really having a conversation about what our university is doing to actually embed into their DNA things that actually makes Ecrs not feel the way that they feeling at the moment. So that's a that's a great of conversation that we really need to be having. But until that moment you build on your resilience, you build on your connections and your networks. And

472
01:29:53.750 --> 01:30:06.880
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): I'm here. I think my details are they? If you want to kind of reach out as well in terms of like, hey, what is it really like being out of? Out of the academic context as well? because I am still learning. It's a different world. And and

473
01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:36.220
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): there were moments in the beginning where and I was frustrated because of. If I was an academic I would have just said Blah, and I can't say it, because nobody will listen if I say it in this way. But it's also so. It's a learning process. and you, sometimes you feel like you're not actually progressing because you're learning a lot of new things. But that actually goes again with that thing of keep a growth mindset that whatever context you're in, you're going to learn something. And that thing that you learn it's going to come in handy at some point in your career. So

474
01:30:36.310 --> 01:30:37.110
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): yeah.

475
01:30:38.100 --> 01:30:48.940
Kristine Aquino: yeah, if I can just jump in like, I, I think I agree with Virginia in terms of that point around. Yeah, let's not forget that it's not.

476
01:30:48.940 --> 01:31:11.460
Kristine Aquino: This is not a kind of individual problem. you know the way that Ecrs are kind of struggling to find work and establish their research. It's a structural problem in terms of you know the precarity that kind of betresses this the system. And so, if you know.

477
01:31:11.640 --> 01:31:14.699
Kristine Aquino: you know, how do you pick yourself up like when

478
01:31:14.950 --> 01:31:39.760
Kristine Aquino: you know when this doors are closed and so on, or you experience rejection like it's already been said like for me. It's You know, those mentors are are important, the ones who can tell you it's all right like this is normal or kind of or the responses? Who will? Who'll be the one to kind of tell the world about you, and and and and insert you into these other

479
01:31:40.080 --> 01:32:08.660
Kristine Aquino: you know, networks and and things. But perhaps that's not even something that Ecr should be kind of taking on. It's probably we should be. you know, this training senior Senior staff and and those who are in secure positions to how to do this. and so it's not even an e, you know, the easier that should be should be putting it all on themselves to to

480
01:32:08.690 --> 01:32:32.520
Kristine Aquino: you know. Yet to go out. And I have to diversify my skills and so on, like, it's actually the support system we have to improve. And that should be the earnest of those who are in more secure positions. And I think, in adding to that, you know, let's not forget that, say academia, but as well, even other places you know of of work.

481
01:32:32.520 --> 01:32:53.169
Kristine Aquino: They are places of academia in this particular place of privilege, like not everyone knows how to navigate this. So for me. you know, for example, like I think, on a broader level, I would say, my class and migrant background. We're kind of obstacles at first, you know, I grew up in Western Sydney.

482
01:32:53.180 --> 01:33:13.739
Kristine Aquino:  which, for those who are not familiar you know, or from Australia. Western Sydney is a kind of low socioeconomic region in Sydney. very, you know, diverse in terms of migrant populations. So I didn't know much about academia like I

483
01:33:13.940 --> 01:33:16.350
Kristine Aquino: and how to get into this world like I

484
01:33:16.720 --> 01:33:38.160
Kristine Aquino: I think it was just kind of. I stumbled onto what a Phd. Was, not even during while I was an undergrad. I didn't know what that was like. Only when I met someone who I was working within the community sector who was doing their Phd. And who was kind of traveling around the world for conferences, I said, well, that's a cool job, like, maybe you know. And then from there I kind of

485
01:33:38.560 --> 01:34:01.019
Kristine Aquino: started to, and then you know that my my teaches, and said all you you could do, an honest and so on, sir, but I never knew that like that was not something that I grew up knowing was was a an an option especially from someone from from western Sydney, and I didn't know many academics. I certainly didn't, or many Philippine or academics. So I didn't have. You know

486
01:34:01.020 --> 01:34:10.369
Kristine Aquino: the cultural and social capital to be so strategic and get ahead so early on. And you know, yeah, so. But but I think

487
01:34:10.370 --> 01:34:14.790
Kristine Aquino: to overcome that like I actually, you know, having

488
01:34:14.790 --> 01:34:34.930
Kristine Aquino: been so immersed in Western Sydney through my research birth in the community sector. And then eventually, when I was doing my Phd, I just started to use that actually to my advantage that actually, there wasn't many experts. who were, you know, immersed in in that

489
01:34:34.930 --> 01:34:59.929
Kristine Aquino: in the actual field in that area And so for me, I I actually turned that and and said, Well, you know, yeah, this is kind of an area of expertise for me as opposed to. And and then yeah, from there, just building building on that. But yeah, let's not forget that Academia is a place of privilege, and not everyone is able to network so easily

490
01:34:59.930 --> 01:35:12.870
Kristine Aquino: because they don't come from those spaces and are not comfortable. you know, to to do that networking with people who who are, you know, for a different class background, who are white? And so on.

491
01:35:13.740 --> 01:35:21.580
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): Yeah, I I agree, Christine, because I think this is this is the this is the thing that we've been emphasizing a lot

492
01:35:21.590 --> 01:35:38.579
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): in my organization of making sure that our members are a member organization. That's very clear that there is a responsibility and honest on the organization to actually take care of its employees, and part of it is making sure these things happen like

493
01:35:38.580 --> 01:36:08.420
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): One of the things we critique a lot is this thing of like, get a mentor, and we, like a mentors are good. But what people need us sponsors? We'll get a sponsor then. Well, no, you put it in your organization in the DNA of the organization that you remove some of these barriers for people, because what Christine is saying is for some people they have green lights, so they they they're born. They have the privilege they do it. If you're a migrant, you literally have to start from the bottom, and I can

494
01:36:08.420 --> 01:36:12.940
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): very much testify to that way I came to this country, you nobody

495
01:36:12.940 --> 01:36:27.740
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And started creating those networks from script, and I wasn't ready way behind everybody else. even if you come with a little bit of you know, whatever you've got from when you when you're in, Mike going to get here, you start not even on 0. It's like less than.

496
01:36:27.740 --> 01:36:46.010
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And so even, that's why I said, I feel like a bit of a fraud, because sitting here and saying to people like, personally, I do this. It's like we expect expecting this, this, this kind of really kind of monolithic, resilient, and feeling and unperturbed kind of being that can sit there and and just work.

497
01:36:46.010 --> 01:36:59.870
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): you know, and just do all of this stuff like a work unit. Basically, that is not affected by anything. So I think, What Christine and I are saying is, like all of these things, are really important, but also be gentle on yourselves, knowing that for some of us

498
01:36:59.870 --> 01:37:28.430
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): we have hurdles put in front of us and not green lines. And it's okay to sit with a bunch of people. And they'll say, I publish, you know 20 publications this year, and you like, well, I've published 0. That's because I have a child and nobody. Actually, I raised my child by myself as an international student, and my child, though though born in Australia, was actually not an Australian citizen. So I didn't get any help from the Government, and so I had to work all throughout my Phd. I did more than one job

499
01:37:28.580 --> 01:37:56.609
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): as a single parent who did not have money to send their child into child care. So I'm sorry I'm not going to finish my Phd. With a gazillion publications. I had a few, but they were also, if you still at first night, and now I'm in my old age, and it's all catching up with me all of that stuff. So I think we we really what we've been saying here is really good advice, and it's really good. But I think the other, the bigger side of the story, the the the the kind of.

500
01:37:56.980 --> 01:38:14.829
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): And all of this is kind of the tip of the ice iceberg. The thing that's underneath it and sustaining all of this struggle is is that the lack of institutional and organizational kind of support. And so I think that's where also some of these conversations we need to move and shift towards

501
01:38:14.830 --> 01:38:36.450
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): what can organizations, and what can we do to actually get organizations to listen and start putting these things so that institutionally so when you start your Phd, part of your Phd. Process is the P. The the the school looks for those sponsors, and for those they identify the sponsors and the and the mentors, for it's really not that hard.

502
01:38:36.450 --> 01:38:52.590
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): like. The same way they identify Phds for some people they can. I did. They can do the same thing for some people. The Phd process is really good, and they get along with my support with their supervisors. One of my X Phd. Students is here. So we get very up along. Very well, hey?

503
01:38:52.640 --> 01:39:16.199
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): So. But it doesn't have it all the time. So sometimes people have really terrible Phd experiences, and your supervisor can't be your mental and your sponsor. And so what happens in that situation now? The honest is on you. If you're a migrant who you gonna go to. I guess I'm just kind of saying my advice is, I I know we've talked a lot about what you can do, but also maybe think about what you can ask

504
01:39:16.350 --> 01:39:40.910
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): some trusted people that that you know, that have power within the organization or within the universities. what can we do to start making sure these things are embedded in the DNA of the of the University, so that, you know Ecs will come after you. And after you aren't experiencing the same thing, because it's really sad for me to sit here and be telling the stories that I was told

505
01:39:41.150 --> 01:39:55.120
Dr Virginia Mapedzahama (she/her): X number of years ago when I was it when I was in Ecr myself, because we really would have wanted the for the conversation to have shifted. But they haven't shifted because we haven't embedded them in the in the, in the, in the day of the of our organization. So

506
01:39:55.450 --> 01:40:16.379
yeah, thank you so much. And I think that's the key point is the I absolutely agree with the institutional support. And I mean, there's at least 2 of us in the room who are part of that structure somehow. definitely, I'm working on this a lot in my organization. But I know it is. It is about finding the people. That's what that was my point earlier.

507
01:40:16.380 --> 01:40:37.740
finding the person in the organisation that flags your flag, and that actually is listening to you and kind of picks up suggestions. And maybe just I'd like to mention before giving. And to the last word, I think because we're running out of time. I came across in researching for this session. I don't know about that. The Lost Voices project. So if any one of you heard of that.

508
01:40:37.740 --> 01:40:44.240
so it was a project by land and postdocs, supported by the Nih-i Alc North Thames.

509
01:40:44.240 --> 01:41:09.550
And it was basically, it's a collection. So the output is. So it's about handling discrimination. The workplace that's really speaking to that point of also the experience of being an Eci. Nhs, very different. If you're a person of color, if you buy, if you're discriminated against on the base of H, if needs to. To. Jane Dun some. And basically the based on lost voices campaign was all about developing a toolkit if that happens, and and so some of them 150.

510
01:41:09.560 --> 01:41:21.180
The advice, I can. What I will do is advertise it through the IC. 5, like sent through. And so I have you all part of the IC of 5 mailing list. no,

511
01:41:21.380 --> 01:41:38.129
Whoever wants to get that, can you please? Just come up and put your email on name here. And I'll find your email and circulate it to you. But it's basically just Google lost voices campaign. And you'll also find it. And it's a few videos, that are on Youtube, I think.

512
01:41:38.130 --> 01:42:02.329
And it's all about yeah finding role models. Find a man to find that one person find that like-minded person also more senior to you who basically advocates for all these issues that we've been talking about because So we haven't set up that session to kind of responsibilities, you but but really to kind of yeah, talk through different issues. But absolutely. It's about institutions needing to change, and I will for sure

513
01:42:02.330 --> 01:42:20.129
passes on to my networks. And hopefully others in the room who I have a bit of organizational power. Yeah, just bring those ideas and feed them into people with a bit of influence in your organization. I think we almost need to close that. Give Andrew also. A last word

514
01:42:20.750 --> 01:42:23.120
just to say, I've got no faith that organizations will.

515
01:42:23.400 --> 01:42:32.600
So I actually pulled all my research out of the University, and now worked entirely in the private sector with my own company, which is.

516
01:42:32.790 --> 01:42:55.090
which is going well. But things didn't always go well, and you need a plan, for when things don't go well, because it will happen. So I I spent some time absolutely broke and so what I do. I was a gardener actually really enjoyed and as a garden library and a catering assistant for 18 months, or almost 18 months.

517
01:42:55.730 --> 01:42:56.880
But

518
01:42:57.210 --> 01:43:04.050
people who knew me and supported me gave me 3 really good pieces of advice. They said, keep up your networks.

519
01:43:05.130 --> 01:43:08.380
was your asset at that time? Is time.

520
01:43:08.640 --> 01:43:24.619
Right? so they said, keep up your personal support networks, but also like, obviously. But also you professional networks. If you're part of a professional network, especially if it's your peers who you've gone through as other early career resentures in the institution

521
01:43:24.770 --> 01:43:36.680
keep in touch with them right? They are the people who understand where you're at. You've also got some G of star tissue with coming through the institution. You've got some commonality. Keep that relationship up. It's really really important.

522
01:43:37.180 --> 01:43:41.330
And thirdly, keep up your your networks.

523
01:43:41.680 --> 01:43:49.599
If you're not in the network, get in the network that are about your topic or the issue that you're involved with, because you actually now have time to volunteer

524
01:43:49.780 --> 01:43:51.430
that you've got a you got some.

525
01:43:51.540 --> 01:43:54.490
But you could actually donate that like a contribution.

526
01:43:54.860 --> 01:44:05.929
and in doing that and doing, volunteering, volunteering, you're actually raising your profile. You're you're proving your worth. And and you're adding to adding to your Cv.

527
01:44:06.020 --> 01:44:11.310
The third thing is, if you're interested in an academic career, who gives liches.

528
01:44:11.790 --> 01:44:16.739
offer yourself to do it is lecture and enough especially. I mean, you can see the teachers

529
01:44:16.830 --> 01:44:23.939
teaching staff. Somebody comes along, says the I' to our session for you, and I'm the most recent expert in my little area.

530
01:44:24.049 --> 01:44:40.259
Thank you, rice, but actually somebody taking it a a lecture off the and you literally, you will be the expert and it gives you an opportunity to again, hone your teaching skills, but to your career. But also that means that you have now got an in.

531
01:44:41.480 --> 01:45:11.319
Now, if you it's so, that's 3 things that I really strongly recommend. The fourth is a little bit out there, and it's something that universities never teach anybody. which, given that some of us here are outside of academia is, I find, a call, and that is, if you are still interested in a in a role that has a research component, and you're still interested in becoming an active researcher at some stage.

532
01:45:11.750 --> 01:45:14.880
Seek yourself a former little private company.

533
01:45:16.230 --> 01:45:44.069
and set yourself up as a consultant. Why? Because, first of all, you are now a company, any expenses associated with your work, and now texted up to deductible right, that but you do actually have to have some income in order to deduct from us. But but but but at least you will. Position, if an opportunity comes in right, might be short term like somebody said, I need somebody for 4 weeks you got. Yep, I can do that. I've got a system. Yeah, we're right in the village. So

534
01:45:44.590 --> 01:45:49.220
but that that gives you more flexibility than any university award

535
01:45:49.370 --> 01:46:01.270
or anything else, because you can respond instantly. Somebody says, I need somebody. Next week you can turn around and say, Yeah, I think that I've got an organization to do it. But you've got to pay.

536
01:46:01.520 --> 01:46:09.329
and that means you can actually build up your credibility in your networks, but that consulting company also pays for

537
01:46:09.660 --> 01:46:11.080
your involvement within.

538
01:46:11.580 --> 01:46:27.389
Now there are some things that we could do, and I think that's something that we need to take to ask the the building for research is, how do we make it easier for to build an early career network within our C. O. 5. And I think that's a really good challenge for us

539
01:46:27.719 --> 01:46:37.189
and your new early career researcher. representative is a very awesome dizzy Dizzy's currently there's a global, inventionless data alliance meeting

540
01:46:37.230 --> 01:46:40.589
about how was it that way? Just a moment. We're home.

541
01:46:40.639 --> 01:46:45.369
That's where I come from.

542
01:46:45.559 --> 01:46:58.459
dizzy steer at the moment. So maybe that's something we could do as an ask the And the final piece of advice I'd give you as a researchers is, if you' going to be involved in the panel, make sure you get on the right train.

543
01:47:00.050 --> 01:47:02.350
Why, I

544
01:47:02.380 --> 01:47:08.269
I was kind of got plenty the wrong

545
01:47:08.370 --> 01:47:10.320
that's ready.

546
01:47:11.020 --> 01:47:35.399
I won't even try to summarize all the fantastic advice that you've you. The 3 of you have really generously shared. So I thank you very much. I thank you so much for naming the real problems. And yeah, just sharing your insight and experiences. we yeah, hopefully. S, the C. O. 5 and we'll follow up. Well, the new board will follow up on on these issues as well. So

547
01:47:35.400 --> 01:47:53.479
yeah, do you keep in touch with the Oc. 5. But yeah, many, many thanks to Virginia and Christine and Andrew, for talking to us today and thank you all for coming. So we've heard a bit less from you than I thought that session would be like. But I hope it was really useful for you, and yeah, and enjoy the rest of the conference.

548
01:47:54.990 --> 01:47:55.830
Just