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By acknowledging the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia, and they're enduring connections to land, sea, and sky as part of one of the oldest continuing. And it's just cultures in the world. I'm grateful to be on the land of the war and jury peoples of the East Coast and nation today, and I'd like to pay my respects to the Elvis, past and present.

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and extend that respect to all aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. So thank you for coming along to our panel. and thank you, Sonya, for joining us online.

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It was a bit of a hyper across from the Crown, so we might get some stragglers on as we go along.

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But we've got a really exciting set of talks today, ranging from fegal transplants from the Channel microbiome fermentation and wine making micro and macro cousins. And I O Reada and gene editing and livestock.

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So unfortunately, we won't be hearing about when viruses innovate, because Fabian and Cecile had to send their last minute apologies.

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The upshot of that is that we each have a few extra precious minutes to get through our presentations. So the schedule gives us 15 min total. But I think what we'll do is have 15 min to talk if that works here, followed by 2 to 3 min of sort of clarifying questions before we move on to the speaker. The next speaker.

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so I'll let you know when you have about 2 min to go, and then, when your time's up, although perhaps it wouldn't even come to that.

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So I'll introduce each speaker as they come up, and people are sort of changing slides and whatnot. but it's my pleasure to introduce our first speaker and fellow panel organizer, Professor Sonya. When so Sonia is a professor of anthropology and sociology in the school of social and political sciences at the University of Sydney.

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And her research takes place at the sort of cross-disciplinary node of law life and science in the globalizing world at the moment she's working on the post. Colonial politics of bioscience governance in South East Asia with a particular focus on Indonesia, Sonia, over to you.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Thanks so much, Katie.

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Sonja van Wichelen: And Hi, everyone. I hope you can hear me. Okay. my sincere apologies for not being able to be with you in person. I'm I'm zooming in from Jojokarta, Indonesia, where I'm leading a field school in social justice for the Sydney Southeast Asia Center

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Sonja van Wichelen: now, even though I'm not in Melbourne. I did. Wanted to acknowledge to the traditional owners of an arm the round jury where I warring people of the Collination on which the Isa meeting is taking place, and I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and to elders of all first nations, communities.

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Sonja van Wichelen: now bit to my paper, and I'll start to share my screen.

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Sonja van Wichelen: and I hope you can see this.

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Sonja van Wichelen: I want to start

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Sonja van Wichelen: by making a reference.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Let me go to the next slide.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Oh!

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Sonja van Wichelen: By making a reference to the high-level negotiations that took place last year

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Sonja van Wichelen: at the United Nations Biodiversity Conference, Cop 15. In Montreal.

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Sonja van Wichelen: The focus of the event was to determine the status of digital sequence information which is the policy term for used for information derived from biological resources and genetic material.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Now, core to the negotiations was the issue of benefit, sharing

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Sonja van Wichelen: a central mechanism of the convention for biological diversity or Cbd.

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Sonja van Wichelen: To ensure that countries that provide biological material

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Sonja van Wichelen: receive due compensation for their contributions to scientific development

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Sonja van Wichelen: as developing countries seek to tether data to the nation. State critics that are often represented by developed or over developed countries.

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Sonja van Wichelen: They say instead that data must flow.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So forms of bias, sovereignty, they say, hamper scientific progress.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Now my presentation interrogates the problem of materiality in assessing bioinformation

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Sonja van Wichelen: especially for benefit sharing purposes.

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Sonja van Wichelen: And this is not to advocate for either data, sovereignty or open access.

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Sonja van Wichelen: but instead to clarify the different scales at work in thinking about the materiality of bioinformation, and to identify ways in which the more than biological as the anthropologist, Stefan Helmer. I so powerfully put it.

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Sonja van Wichelen: how that more than biological is folded into the biological.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Now I do this by focusing on data extracted from human stool for research on the human gut microbiome.

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Sonja van Wichelen: which is, as we all know, in this panel at least a pioneering, bioscientific field, with great promise for tackling various diseases.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So I I examine how stool transitions from in vitro to in silico analysis, and note the change in my title that you see over here.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So, in other words, how are fecal materials turned into metadenomic sequence data?

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Sonja van Wichelen: I ultimately argue that the dematerialization of stool is simultaneously accompanied by processes of rematerialization that thicken metogenic data

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Sonja van Wichelen: in the same way that anthropologists, Clifford Garrett's used thick descriptions to interpret cultural information.

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Sonja van Wichelen: The thickening

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Sonja van Wichelen: of data in microbiome research occurs through a post-genomic context informed by the following 3 conditions which structure my presentation today.

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Sonja van Wichelen: First, the epistemic infrastructure through which

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Sonja van Wichelen: scientists interpret microbiomic data.

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Sonja van Wichelen: second, the challenges microbiomics bring to regulatory capitalism. and, third, the post-colonial materiality of microbiomeic knowledge.

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Sonja van Wichelen: These conditions, I argue, demand critical reflections on the governance of scientific exchange in the era of digital biology

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Sonja van Wichelen: beyond the polarized present that posits data, sovereignty on the one hand, and muttonian scientific comments on the other.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So scholars from the social sciences and humanities have characterized microbiome research as a post-genomic science. This classification reflects changing conditions of knowledge. Production following the Human Genome Project.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Here the life sciences entered a new phase in their research, methodology, scientific labor, and their funding structures.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So the massive expansion and intensification of sequencing technologies are main drivers of this post genomic condition and bring multiple forms of uncertainty to the status of biomaterials and data.

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Sonja van Wichelen: They lead to new challenges in the valuation, classification, and provenance, provenance of data itself and of their providers

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Sonja van Wichelen: within microbiome studies. Human stool samples are sequence for large-scale computational research on the human microbiome.

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Sonja van Wichelen: These technologies have radically changed the science, transforming what kind of knowledge is legible, valued, and calculable.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Now, in her ethnographic study of microbiome research on infant malnutrition in Daca.

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Sonja van Wichelen: the anthropologist, Amber Benzra describes the dataification of microbes and points to how metagenomic technologies turn Bangladeshi children's bodies into data for translational research in the hopes of finding a technological fix for malnutrition

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Sonja van Wichelen: here.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Social behavior and circumstances concerning infant malnutrition in Daca were morphed into computed data and made available for analysis and prediction.

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Sonja van Wichelen: but contrary to the assumption that data is freestanding and neutral.

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Sonja van Wichelen: The microbiomeic data described in the Asia study is valuable only in connection to information about the diets, health and local lives of the subjects in Bangladesh.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So the connection between data and place

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Sonja van Wichelen: and between data and scale is vital in terms of scientific value.

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Sonja van Wichelen: while the data travels to databases and becomes untethered from its local origins.

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Sonja van Wichelen: scientists assessing accessing the data, tether them back to certain localities, depending on the research questions and the new context. They put the data in

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Sonja van Wichelen: the origins of data become relevant when scientists seek to validate the quality of their claims.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So what happens here is that information attached to these localities

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Sonja van Wichelen: become aggregated with the microbiomic information. thereby molecularizing environments.

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Sonja van Wichelen: One's context becomes integral to the microbiomic data collected. the social becomes part of the biological

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Sonja van Wichelen: geographers speak of the mapping work that is inherent to post. the post genomic sciences. And in what comes next I explore how this spatial mapping operates within structures of value.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So, in contrast to genetic researchers who must undergo many ethical legal hurdles to collect DNA samples, particularly from indigenous communities.

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Sonja van Wichelen: It is still relatively easy for human microphone researchers to collect stool samples.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Shit is ubiquitous and free. and it is not extracted from the body like a kidney for transplants

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Sonja van Wichelen: or a swap for DNA cells. Nor does it have the cultural appreciation that is attached to human blood to placenta or to breast milk.

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Sonja van Wichelen: while in many jurisdictions feces is considered bio- waste. Legal scholars advocate changing the legal definitions of stool to be included as human tissue.

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Sonja van Wichelen: arguing that stool may hold value similar to placenta and human breast milk.

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Sonja van Wichelen: The legal recognition of stool as biologically one's own, would ignite the same kind of ethical debates represented Presented by human tissue, where the question whether one own whether one owns one's tissue

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Sonja van Wichelen: is inextricably informed by a legal philosophical attachment to human individuality.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Yet the very idea of human individuality is changing amidst the post-genomic site by sciences.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Scholars in the social study of science have shown how microbiomics disturbs traditional notions of humanists and biological personhood.

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Sonja van Wichelen: The human microbiome is a more than human or multi-species affair, involving the life and labor of tiny organisms. Trillions of microbes inside the human body and their dynamics, vis-a-vis environmental conditions outside of the body.

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Sonja van Wichelen: So in true Lutorian manner, microbiomeic data like ferment in the pasteurization of France

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Sonja van Wichelen: becomes a substance that specifies the stability of an assemblage rather than hiding true information about the self.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Microbiomeic data develops into an institution held together by techno-scientific and local practices.

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Sonja van Wichelen: The challenge for public regulation, then, is how to govern microbiomeic data as a space show temporal assemblage rather than as information attached to an individual.

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Sonja van Wichelen: But assemblage thinking brings complications to the economy of microbiomics

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Sonja van Wichelen: and to the regimes of intellectual property, such as patent law underpinning contemporary bio economies.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Commodification doubles down on the spatial aspects of research.

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Sonja van Wichelen: And this is because post-genomic biosciences depend on the cybernetic logic that understands nature as diagnostic information used to find tune therapeutic procedures.

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Sonja van Wichelen: In other words.

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Sonja van Wichelen: the economic incentives in forming microbiomeic data articulated through spatial mappings of distinctive microbiomes.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Directly frames scientific inquiry

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Sonja van Wichelen: now, my final reflection. Reflection concerns the post-colonial politics of such spatial aspects.

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Sonja van Wichelen: There are strong indications that less diverse microbiomes are linked to metabolic disorders that are prevalent in Western populations, but not as widespread in subsistence. Economies and or even absent in hunter-gatherer communities

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Sonja van Wichelen: over time. The gut microbiomes of people in over developed countries have progressively endured the digestion of sugars, fats, and proteins.

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Sonja van Wichelen: and therefore pre-industrialized microbiota, are key to curing these industrialized bodies leading to what Benzra has called the bio-prospecting of indigenous guts

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Sonja van Wichelen: rather than reproducing the developmentalist imaginary that portrays transitions from subsistence, economies to industrial economies as inevitable progress and enlightenment.

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Sonja van Wichelen: We witness a reverse of this colonial pathos in the domain of microbi research.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Yet, while reversed, the racialized dimension remains intact in the post-colonial rendering of microbial difference.

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Sonja van Wichelen: As the transition from a subsistence. Economy to an industrial economy robs industrialised bodies of their capacities. To metabolise efficiently the microbial knowledge of other bodies is put to work to remedy these pathogenetic

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Sonja van Wichelen: instances.

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Sonja van Wichelen: pathogenic instances or apologies

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Sonja van Wichelen: in concluding

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Sonja van Wichelen:  In concluding my thoughts, one can detect here the construction of a post-colonial materiality

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Sonja van Wichelen: where microbiomeic data is not only tethered to spatial temporal contexts, namely, those that affect metabolism.

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Sonja van Wichelen: but also folded into scientific, biomedical, and global health practices that continue to operate on a colonial logic.

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Sonja van Wichelen: New understandings of bioinformation bring to governance new challenges both for intellectual property rights and for benefit, sharing arrangements

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Sonja van Wichelen: here microbiomeic data and bioinformation in general should not be regarded as either role, untethered or neutral, but instead, in need of careful intention and analysis, to see how information relates to complex histories, cultural contexts, and biossocial environments.

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Sonja van Wichelen: Thank you for your attention.

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Send you. Thank you so much and keeping so beautifully to time. are there any quick, clarifying questions.

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This

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I think we'll keep with the momentum then, and it's my pleasure to introduce Nikolai Nikolai SIM to is a doctoral researcher in the school of Environment at the University of Oakland and New Zealand His research interests include the social and by physical production of wine more than human geography does that dessert.

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I'm ready for my wine. diverse economies and post capitalist futures and science and technology studies. He's also a former Winemaker himself. and his research follows wine production and sustainability in New Zealand and internationally

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sorry.

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So we're going to do this one

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beautiful.

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Well, thank you very much for having me. I'd also like to acknowledge country. I'm of course, an uninvited visitor here on Nam, and, thanks to everyone who's come up on a Wednesday evening to talk about microbes and to the 2 session organizers.

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so yeah, like, like the introduction said, I sort of sit across more than human geography and Sts. But very much come from a background in wine. So I've spent about 9 years working in the wine industry, and that, I think.

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has largely informed the trajectory of my Ph. D. Research, which really seeks to find a sort of cultural biological economy of wine that takes more than human actors, things like yeasts and technologies seriously, as sort of cultural agents in the world, and with

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sometimes quite significant economic and social power.

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And I think it's kind of fitting that we're in the sort of back end of the conference shoved away because microbes have largely been ignored in social theory and and social science.

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Even the more than human movement has tended to focus on things that are big like us, an animal like us. And you can see that in the growth of animal studies as a discipline. There's not really much going in fungal studies.

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So that's really a starting point for my research. I'm interested in

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what we can do if we think through some of these neglected ontologies sort of a bottom up approach to understanding

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bigger themes. And so sort of social and cultural worlds, but starting at a microbial level rather than the other way around

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and in terms of the sort of negligence Lorimer's conception of non-human charisma, I think, is quite helpful. A lot of the the work that's gone on has focused on things that are more effective, more generative of of human interest.

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and people like Tom Vendor and and Australia have noticed the sort of difference in conservation between a panda and a mollusc. And it's it's fast. So

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the other sort of starting point for this research is the the explosion in microbiome research, in the wine industry itself.

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and you've seen this go from vineyards and in wineries. I think, largely spurred by similar developments in the human microbiome studies. There's been a renewed interest in in what these microbes mean in terms of wine quality in terms of wine flavors, and limited, but quite I'd say promising studies that have really documented that microbes are quite important. There's.

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you know, if all other factors were equal, but 2 vineyards have quite different microbial populations. It results in very different tastes and wine qualities. this is

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sort of an involvement of the concept of Serhua, which is used in the wine industry to refer to environmental and cultural factors.

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some of these papers

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say that about 2425% of Tehua can be attributed to microbial

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influence.

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And so, as it's sort of a defining concept in the wine world, the microbial component of Taiwa the bacteria and use that leave their fingerprints

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is really I guess, the ontological and epistemological ramifications have still not really been explored.

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and in many ways that mirrors the sort of human microbiome research.

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This is an example of an Australian wine. I've been doing sort of a survey of of winery websites and marketing materials, and less than 10% actually mention the yeasts

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that they use or how they use them so very much. The focus is on the Winemaker, usually a man, and the decisions that they make. And there's there's scant acknowledgment of the more than human labor that goes into producing something like a bottle of wine.

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This is one example where they do mention yeast, and they say that it's been inoculated with a selection selected, geese chosen for its expression of fruit purity? So this is an example of a one that's been inoculated. It's one where a commercially cultured, standardized, predictable, homogeneous use strain has been added into the wine, and that's sole to winemakers as sort of a safe

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default, approach one with very low risk and with predictable outcomes.

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But what we've also seen is this huge practice change towards natural ferments or wild ferments. How this is a 2019 study of Australian winemakers and wild ferments, with the number one sort of shift that people were making in the past 3 years.

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And this is another Australian study, and you can see from the sort of pie on the left

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that about 46% of people are inoculating everything. Then you've got the maybe a third that are doing it on some wines, and that often varies on the material of the wine itself. So certain varieties like Shardenay, and red wines, tend to be left to ferment wildly while your Soviet bunks and your pine agrees are usually inoculated, and then you've got just under a quarter that aren't

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really adding any yeast at all. So there's a huge spectrum in terms of practices, but definitely a growth in sort of this rejection of of using a a from a packet.

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and the reasons given are on the bars, usually around improving wine, quality, complexity, introducing neuromas and flavors, but also more ideological concerns. So there's a sense that

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adding in something can detract from a sense of place, and that it.

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it is better to limit your human intervention and your

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sense in that way.

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So why I find this interesting really is that fermentation in many ways rethinks biopolitics. and it provides an interesting case study to examine both the politics of life, but the politics, overlife in the journey from grape juice

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to wine, and the increased prominence of natural ferments, both as a means of of physically producing wine, but also as a way of qualifying premium and natural ones. So we are starting to see an increase in The sort of discussions around yeasts.

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in many ways could be seen as a micro biopolitics of resistance. So the rejection of commercially standardized these cultures. We're supporting biodiversity. We're supporting indigenous microbial populations. and that's certainly something that some winemakers have expressed as important to them. But I wouldn't say overall. That doesn't seem to be sort of the main motivation. Most Winemakers are much more pragmatic.

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So my research, that's very much ongoing. in terms of doing ethnographic stuff. interviews is really interested in whether this speaks to a broader microbial moment.

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and the sort of post-pistorian or re-wilding politics that people like heather. Paxon and Jamie Lorimer have identified. Is this

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a shift in human health and food production that no longer sees microbes as dangerous enemies that seeks to work with nature a probiotic governmentality.

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and it sees sort of humans more as ecological and microbes as sort of a key part of the flourishing of the human.

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And there's definitely arguments that you can see this in so-called wild ferments and natural wines, which I'm going to speak to in a minute.

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but it's it's sort of unclear. So there's and with events like Covid, we've now seen a sort of a return of a pastorian approach, and very much a dominance of dialogues focused on sort of killing microbes and sanitation and hygiene. So

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so that's sort of my

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speculative research agenda. And and what I'm interested in. But I want to talk briefly about One particular microbe will Brett Britannamy's if you work in the wine industry. You probably heard of it, but if you don't, you probably haven't. But you will have tasted wines that are affected by Brett. It's particularly common in red wines. It can be described as tasting like horse settle or cow manure, or sweaty gym socks.

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So it's a very sort of delicious, really invites you to have a glass, but for others it's seen as part of a element of complexity or of flavour that's quite desirable. And so there's sort of these different camps when it comes to breach.

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but breeds particularly common in the natural ones. The natural wines are ones where we sort of reject the use of

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novel technologies, chemicals, edgments, and we sort of let the the wine make itself, as it were, and this means that the sort of main agents of controlling microbes like Bret are missing. And so you end up with that sort of

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increased prominence of of gretty wines. And this is something that's come across in a lot of my interviews that Brett has a microbe, and natural wines as a category are quite linked

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 and that it has quite important ramifications on how the natural. One category is understood. What I really like about this quote is the second part.

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but there's a bit more acceptance of bread because of natural ones. People are like, oh, that's just how one tastes naturally, and maybe we shouldn't dislike it. Maybe conventional wine is the one that's wrong, like we've taken out the natural microbes. So you can see this sort of complex relationships. on one hand, brick can be seen as natural, and the other it can be seen as

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sort of homogenizing wines, making them all taste the same. And and there's sort of a challenge

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in some ways to these conventional ideas of taste and the social construction of distaste. And so Bret, as an agent, really lets you think through that complexity.

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there's a few big issues with natural wine as a category. like. I say, some people love it, others hate it. It's quite divisive, but the main question is

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the sort of natural and natural one is largely artificial.

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most of my commentators, the people I've interviewed have spoke that there's actually nothing natural about wine. It's very much a cultural product, it wouldn't exist outside of human intervention. It's

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yeah. So these sorts of narratives of of naturalness. Some people find it quite

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unauthentic, I suppose, would be the word.

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Okay?

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Sorry. I've lost where I am. But

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wine is undoubtedly ecologically embedded.

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It's it's dependent on on nature, more so than other commodities are, and it really gives you an insight into thinking through some of these ideas of microbiotics and micro-governmentality. but it's also definitely a nature culture. is

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these sort of collisions of social and physical worlds.

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and and an interesting tension exists among sort of natural winemakers. People adopting this post-pistering approach between being post nature, and also in pursuit of remade nature. So a lot of people are trying to hearken back to a reality that maybe didn't exist. and that's similar to what Laura Murr and Hexen have found.

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and their albums.

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So what do we make of natural wine of Britty wine?

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Should we laud it as an example of of a microbiotics of resistance, the David up against the Goliath of more posterian conventional approaches, which do sort of center on a violence towards more than human others.

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or should we see it as a sane on years of progress towards making sort of clean fruit flavored? flavor-driven wines?

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Maybe most consumers don't want their wine to taste like horse or cowman. Yog.

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So. while there certainly be a sort of a

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shift to more agro ecological approaches more regenerative approaches in the vineyard and this is largely mirrored by these sorts of returns to natural wine making and natural fermions. I don't think that, and of itself. Passage is a guy in agrarian future.

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but it does offer more sort of hope for a nuanced, more holistic, nature-centric understanding of of human environment relations, both at the wine industry, scale and and at a broader scale.

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is natural wine. The answer definitely, not in my case, but it has shifted that sort of Overton window towards a more probiotic approach.

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So I guess, overall my argument would be that thinking with with Brett and other awkward microbes really has a potential to make our world look different. we can come into these different conceptions of of micro governmentality, of by a power very much from a bottom up approach, and one that centers the

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the little invisible, others that are easily ignored. and I'm very much in the spirit of of Merlin Sheldrich, who sort of wants to unsettle some of the certainties around these conceptions that we have through focusing on less charismatic more than human others. So

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thank you very much.

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 thank you so much for that.

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I can already see that they are going to be some great overlap really good discussion afterwards. But are there any quick questions before we move on that you want to ask?

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Well, everything's hot and sort of fresh in your mind.

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If not, I have the exceedingly awkward task of getting to introduce myself.

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So My name's Katie Kenny. I'm an Asa de Beth, fellow, and senior lecturer in sociology at the University of Sydney. and I'm also a deputy director of the Sydney Center for Health Societies. So my, I've I've I'm copy to bio. I'm I. What do I do? So my research draws together social and feminist theory with qualitative methods to develop new ways of understanding and hopefully addressing

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some of the key health challenges that we face as individuals and societies in the global community. But now

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and into the future. So you'll see some

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similarities between our side slide decks. We're obviously riffing on the you said template but all of our talks today are really variously concerned with the ways in which the microbiome revolution has opened up new ways of thinking and acting in relation to human and more than human bodies.

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and how they're entangled with each other, their environments and ecologies across time.

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And I've been using this as a sort of heuristic for thinking about the different ways that the subject of health and well-being might be productively reimagined as multitudinous as extending beyond humanistic ideas of discrete individuality and individual responsibility.

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So this aligns broadly with the vision of our center, the Sydney Center for these societies, which is driven by the idea that health and illness, and well, being as well aren't just properties of individuals or even populations, but rather they're collectively produced through our social structures, political economies, histories of colonization.

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So on. And here microbes are a really interesting exemplar, insofar as they connect us all from that sort of manner scale of viruses all the way up to the global and planetary level of climate change and ecological crises in which even tiny increases in average temperatures can accelerate bacterial boat, for example.

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so conceptually, like many of us here.

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This research is motivated by thinkers like Jamie, Loma and Heather, Paxon, and many others who sort of collectively disrupted the conventional rating of microbes as dirty pathogenic enemies to be exterminated largely. They're not exclusively to protect human bodies from illness and sort of this work here has collectively

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sort of challenge what we might call a pathogenic imaginary, or that traditional Pasteurian worldview, and proposed the post-pasteurian one that we've heard about already. Instead.

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so the shortcomings of an exterminatory approach of the pathogenic, pathogenic, imaginary are increasingly becoming obvious to a whole host of new research, linking the microbiome to things like periodical disease, obesity, mode, and mental health, information, immunity, and metabolism to name just a few.

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And it turns out that indiscriminately wiping out broad spectrums of the 39 trillion microbes that live within and upon us doesn't always lead to great outcomes. And of course, there's also the growing global challenge of anti microbial resistance or super bugs which can increasingly resist the antibiotics or other microbesides that are used to kill them. So it's hard to overstate the problem of Amr

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in 2,019, 1.2 7 million deaths

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were directly attributable to Amr, so mostly deadly infections of the chest abdomen and the Bloodstream, and 4.9 5 million more were people who died of causes in which Amr played a contributing role.

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So to put that into a comparative perspective, am I now kills more people globally than HIV aids.

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and it

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kills twice the number of people as does malaria, and, as you likely know, the main cause of Amr is the overuse of antibiotics primarily in human health, but also in veterinary health and in agriculture too. So this is the empirical motivation for my research after this current project, the growing crisis of Amr

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and our broader research team has been doing work on this for a number of years. But today we've really focused primarily on the hospital setting. And even in well resourced hospitals within well developed health care systems like we have in Australia, reigning in the overuse of antibiotics is really challenging, challenging, not just medically, but for a whole range of social and organisational reasons.

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So medical hierarchy, governance structures, short term accountability and budget cycles, the devaluing of public health and the common good. We've written about these variously, and you can no doubt find them if you're interested. But this new project that I'm going to talk about today aims to take the question of Amr out into the wild, as it were, to consider how antibiotics feature in attempts to manage illness, infection, and immunity in everyday family life.

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So the broader decor project looks like this. kids, bugs and drugs human microbial relations in everyday family life.

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And eventually I'll end up talking to parents of young children, adolescents and young people and community-based health education and care professionals. Today, though I'm going to focus on this sort of question of the

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potentially multitude in their self in early life.

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And so this is based on a paper that's tentatively titled micro biopolitics, relationality and care, culturing the future through the maternal microbiome that I've been working on with my colleague and research fellow Dr. About a parlor.

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So, platforming off what we might sort of see is that on to logical ambiguity of early life, it aims to get at some of these issues of how bodies might be entangled, not only effectively but materially as well, and also sort of engages. With these questions of temporality insofar as the maternal microbiome profoundly influences offspring's microbiome throughout their entire life course.

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So I see a sort of interesting tension here

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between continuity and differentiation of maternal and fatal bodies, and how this is mediated by the microbiome intergenerationally

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so. There are some ways that the microbiome seems to sort of transcend discrete individuality, but might also risk creating an additional and intensified form of maternal responsibility.

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So in this paper we draw on sort of the information and advice directed towards Australian parents in New South Wales from conception through the first years of a child wide to consider its messaging about the need to secure for that child and enduring optimal state of health by managing maternal microbiome.

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And we argue that this post Pasteur and intend trend. Sorry Gives rise to relations of care that are at once newly collective and more than human but also disciplinary in ways that position the microbiome as a new site of maternal scrutiny.

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So to some extent this is super unsurprising. I. There's a wealth of scholarship on the medicalization of motherhood. There is rise of a sort of predict and preempt paradigm in which pregnancy and motherhood is located on a spectrum of low to high risk, but never without risk.

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And how all of this sort of incites mothers to act with attention and vigilance at all times to optimize the health of the fetus. And then the child.

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So the sort of biopolitics that play here. Quite obvious. so I'm thinking about people like rain. A wrap on genetic testing during wolf on the sort of breastfeeding walls. and even our very own T as a president, alfia possomy, and a city who's done work on risk and child birth choices.

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So in our research a range of patterns were evident. advice to eat well, not smoked, not drink, avoid alcohol, get sufficient rest. Yada Yada. Not surprising. But what was interesting is how much of this is by is now being couched in terms of the microbiome. So here just a few illustrative examples pulled from advice around the station, birth, and breastfeeding.

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So here that link between what mothers 8 and their children's future cognitive capacities is not proven, but sort of it's

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that it's potentially mediated by the microbiome, which is mobilized as a sort of justification, quite quite so pervasively.

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 And here

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the baby's health is linked to maternal microbiota in such a way that a C-section delivery is seen as a quote-quote. Microbial defect

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leading to a whole host of sort of undesirable outcomes.

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So concern about this microbial defect has led to the practice of vaginal seeding where

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babies born, via, say some C section a kind of swabbed with gores, pads that have been inserted into the mother's vagina during the procedure, to sort of expose them to the might verb that they would have account encountered during a vaginal delivery, And although this is quite widely practiced.

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go governing medical bodies sort of hedge, continue to hedge on the practice by mobilizing again this sort of omnipresent language of risk.

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and of course, breastfeeding.

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So what's interesting here, I think, is the really expansive temporality invoke by the Aba connecting the microbiomes of 6 generations through one mother's breast milk.

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And this is the kind of sort of ambivalence or ambiguity that I want to highlight. Such advice seems to have the potential to destabilize humanist ideas around this great individuality. And so it seems in line with like a lot of the projects of feminist ethics of care, for example, but the weight of 6 generations on one mother's decision or ability to restate also seems like a lot to carry, and illustrates the sort of disciplinary potential of such an approach.

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So I'll wrap up by returning to some of the central questions that we raised in the abstract for this panel.

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I won't read them, or try individually to answer them here. But what I will say is that collectively, these questions really speak to the role of knowledge, how it's produced, how it's deployed, and with what consequences that are really that sort of bread and butter of Sts. The core concerns of the field, and remain enduringly relevant in the post genomic era. So

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if you're interested in center.

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I'm also going to plug the Health Sociology Review. which is a general that I've recently taken on as editor. and we are really trying to increase the Sts representation within health sociology. So please do consider submitting. If you've got papers that fit the bell

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all right. Thank you.

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I guess I should ask if there any clarifying questions for the speaker. If not, I will move on to Natasha. Rennie, who is our home court player today?

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her research centers around the sociology of health, pregnant epigenetics and the global South with a focus on India, and she is also an experienced ethics and research governance officer and has worked across both the research and the health care industries.

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 I Hello, everyone. Thank you for showing up tonight. I'm sorry I've been. I've been on well these last few days, so hopefully, my voice.

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you can see how we go. This is.

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I'll get a bit of a twist on my Phd. Work so a little bit speculative a little bit here and there. So just a heads up.

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so my talk is micro macrocosms over it, and the microbiome

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So our bodies fill up with this microbiome different trillions of species of bacteria, viruses, parasites, also the good ones, also the pathogenic one is bad ones. It's only the matter of balance that shows you a health or not, it's just a matter of balance.

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So this paper or talk explores how the microbiomization of the self and society within the press dynamic era impacts our understandings of traditional medicines, and in particular, irritating.

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In order to gain a better understanding of Iraq within the Indian and global context as well. I'll briefly describe. It's just to situate you all. I'll briefly describe its pre-colonial, colonial, and post-colonial history as a medical practice, because I think that helps.

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Then I'll discuss how practitioners view both the body and sciences is somewhat permeable. I'll ask how and why iuretic researchers place themselves within a scientific framework which helps them to transcribe aiatic ideas and practices into biomedical and biomedical terms, or so microbiological terms.

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Taking, I read up as a base point some not all practitioners, finance to their questions within the new research of the microbiome as well as epigenetics in the post dynamic.

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Yeah.

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So I'll draw on some ethnographic data and some interviews.

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to explore how primarily all pretty much all urban iuretic practitioners in Delhi and Pune in India use the microbiome to help or hinder their understandings of the body, society and universe.

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so

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this is just 3 over here. so I'll start with understanding. I you better in a pre-colonial and post-colonial context. So in its pre-colonial development, I read our allgamated beliefs about the the metaphysical with religious understandings. Iraq has been identified as a biomoral tradition which demarks it as having connections with religion distinct from violence and and rational science.

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Through its development. As a medical system I read a shed many interactions, influences, and overlaps from different sources.

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For instance, both sixth-century texts of the key. The key texts are the Chakra and Shushruta Samhita, detailed physiological and diagnostic ideas Congruent with some of the principles of Galenic and Hippocratic medicine.

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From the thirteenth century onwards. Muslim rule in India brought Islamic medical traditions and knowledge, and exchanged with iuretic knowledge and text. These texts were compiled and translated into Persian and Arabic and influenced drugs and other therapies.

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The establishment of the tip and meshing of Muslim Hindu medicine was made possible through the introduction of again Galenic tradition from Islamic medical ideas

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contemporary. A, however, reflects a long history of professional reform as part of a nationalist and indigenous revival.

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Medical revivals are a way of professionalizing a traditional practice, and can be viewed as both a sociological and cultural phenomenon. Medical revivalism has been described as a form of cultural nationalism in both Chinese and Indian societies.

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 this is mostly from anthropologist Charles Leslie, who argued that although these factors may have helped over develop alongside the development of biomedicine. It relies on a theory of decline.

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This narrative of decline and revival is essential to the understanding of modern Irvada, and has been invoked in different settings and utilized to achieve various means. For example, Ayretta has been used as a symbol of Indian culture. Since the beginning of the Independence movement

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after independence, India took on the Nerubian vision of progress and development through science and technology.

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institutionally, from the 1,900 sixtys. The Indian Government constructed iuretic infrastructure.

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consisting of colleges, hospitals, and research centres in the the Central Council of Indian Medicine, took responsibility for the admission policy, for I read her degrees.

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Iuretic doctors are now trained across both modern and traditional systems of medicine. The bachelor in iuretic medicine and surgery, or bam's degree is often taken up as a second choice. If students do not get into a biomedical degree.

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these degrees are seen as integrated medicine where the focus is on modern biomedicine and technology, where the syllabus and structure mimics the battery in medicine and bachelor and surgery.

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So I just give you this quick overview in order to show how it's transformed over time. Ioretta has many different forms, and it has not remained static, and it has been influenced by the political environment in which it has been located.

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So permeable bodies in science. In India, modernity is both celebrated and cautioned against the dangers of modernization are found in toxic chemicals, foods, pollutions, and potentially inducing modern health problems and disorders.

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An anthropologist gallery. Pete

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explains that, although different to the idea of biomoral substances. A form of chemotoxic transmission illustrates a new and different form of body permeability. The exposure to chemicals and in plastics and fear of porosity indicates that instead of a more modern, individually bounded personhood, there is an unstable boundary between people and their environment as it becomes viewed as polluted. In late modernity.

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however, it has viewed the body and illness as involving patterns, relationships, and processes in over the

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the body has seen, has been seen as fluid and porous in, in contrast to the biomedical body which has been described as solid and bounded.

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The auretic body, then, is able to share similarities with this modern form of hermiability

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with a focus on diet, lifestyle, and herbs, a microbiome is seen as an area of research which can be correlated with the concepts of Ireta. How do practitioners respond to the microbiome?

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Although my project is largely focused on epigenetic science rather than microbial science? the microbiome in the in the pres genomic era has been brought up a lot within discussions of Ireda with, especially with this focus on life. Solid diet.

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however, as with epigenetics, the research structures of biomedicine proved difficult, and that they're not designed for iuretic medicine as one practitioner based in the Us. told me so. What's right for you. I could give you a low carb diet, and that may work for you, but not work for me. It's because our dos are different, you know it's not one standardized thing we can do, which is what our current research model is based on. So I don't know. I don't know where it will go.

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I think it might actually diverge. You're seeing a whole field of genetics coming out, and people are now doing their own sort of nutrient genomics, and they're sort of twisting it to whatever is popular in today's world.

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Modern Iuba, as we have seen, is a conglomerate of knowledge, flows and ideas.

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Gene Langford notes that there has been a large body of work which argues that the phenomenology of health is culturally separate from biomedicine reading. I read as an ethnomedicine and a distinct to medical system embedded in a particular cultural matrix, has also created a divide between Ayuvet and biomedicine.

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taking inspiration from gene. Langford's post-colonial analysis of fluid bodies from 2,002. I ask how microbiome so science, as a mode of knowledge, is being remoulded by iuretic ideology and practice rather than how modern knowledge affects iobatic practice. Langford's work demonstrates that contemporary Iberta is both simultaneously modern and in tension with the modern invoking a ever-deferred authenticity.

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This deferred authenticity is important as it researchers have argued that biomedical beliefs have been able to be absorbed into iuretic practice without compromising its core paradigms

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this can be seen through research and Iibrator and the microbiome which compare the 2 sciences. A collection of studies have ha has investigated the parallel between one's property similar to one's constitution of a phenotype, and the gut microbiome acknowledging Iraq's relationship with genomics and further phenotypic classification through epigenetic science.

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one study argues that property-based medicine embodies the concept of personalized medicine.

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The study identifies the plasticity of the gut microbiome as being able to explain the behavior of the various property types using scientific methods. The study proposes that one's property can be potentially used as a stratosphere of the gut microbiome and may produce evidence for a conceptual framework for personalized medicine in Ayurreda.

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There are other studies that have argued that the gut oral and skin microbiome have showed up the presence of bacterial tax out of cross-pocracy types suggesting

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a physiological importance.

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In essence, these studies suggest that different property. Sorry. different property. Phenotypes contain unique microbiome compositions. And this is just kind of a comparison of an that that's affected by the microbiome

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from one article that I read

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so microbiome and biomedicine. So in the post dynamic era we find a kind of reasoning which suggests a different type of temporalization, spatialization, and conception of permeability and plasticity of genetic function.

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Interestingly, medical historians and anthropologists, working with non-biomedical practice, have taken on a similar understanding of medical traditions, viewing them also as porous. These practices do not possess clear boundaries, but are rather permeable to different technological and ideological influences, impacting changes and local adaptations. This also.

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yeah.

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Duru: I I think anyone who's going to

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it is.

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Duru: So just picking up can you please?

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Total? Yes.

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Yet. Not okay.

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Okay. Oh, it's fine.

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Let me get back into it. Okay, so

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okay, medical traditions, viewing them as poorest seats. Practices do not possess clear boundaries, but are rather permeable to different technological and ideological influences, impacting changes and local adaptations. This also extends to biomedicine viewing its establishment, and is not simply a transfer of knowledge, practices, and institutions, but rather as a way of finding spaces to such knowledge.

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This permeable view of biomedicine, and I remember, was expressed by one of my interviewees as a form of integration.

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But this is a quote, but the new generation wanted to be a little bit. I wanted to be a little bit integrated because it's actually for the betterment of the human race. If you integrate these systems, and you take out some better form or therapy or medicines out of that that's going to help the overall human race.

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So how does. I remember

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few things. Microorganisms in our gut. Do they help to validate its concepts or change them? One thing I found particularly interesting was. Was that by viewing both Iraq and biomedicine as permeable, a greater understanding of the body could be made by some of my interviewees, as they looked to modern science to fill the gaps in in their own iuretic knowledge.

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So whatever this is great, so so, whatever Ayubida has given and what we understand and practice. There is a gap. There are many places that we don't understand. What a you read. It is saying. We can't understand how it's applicable today. How can we apply it today? But when we see dance research in modern clients, we could read a you better in between the lines.

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Duru: Here I look to how practitioners can change their understanding of their science by reading in between the lines of modern science. This was in line with the type of authenticity I discussed earlier.

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Duru: Okay.

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okay.

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this is. that's good.

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Well, my, so my slim. okay.

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all right.

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it is you.

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Okay? So this was in line of the type of deferred authenticity. As discussed earlier, however, it also presents a different way of understanding biomedical science as valuable and able to be absorbed

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 so by looking at So by looking at this, and how practitioners interact with their science, and how they interpret and incorporate, absorbed or direct new scientific concepts, I think to kind of look how changes occurring in understandings of the body which is then transferred to their everyday practice in theory.

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Systemly, another practitioner from Delhi correlated the role of a microbiome within a person to a philosophy in Ayredo.

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So and that's another quote this microbiome, I think it's here.

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this this

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yeah, this microbiome is a complete ecosystem inside 140. It's

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It's It's like our body is just like a universe just like the universe has so many living entities so similar in Ired. Aida said, the body is a photocopy of the universe.

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This microbial knowledge is presented as present, and part of a wider system which includes humans known humans and extends to the entire universe. Although it can be argued that there are many things to gain politically and scientifically out of this, nonetheless, these urban practitioners of Ired are able to view medical traditions and new cutting edge science as permeable and susceptible to changed.

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able to be absorbed to nourish their own understanding of their practice embedded within a wider ecosystem of knowledge. Yeah.

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yeah.

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thank you for persevering through technical difficulties. so we move on to the last presentation, and then we'll say some time for discussion at the end. our next speaker is Sam, that Malik, and he's a professor of sociology at the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences, Indian Institute of Technology in India.

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He specializes in the Sociology of Science and technology, and also includes historical sociology. The philosophy of the social sciences among his research interests.

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his research and teaching at the intersection of philosophy, social theory, and science studies.

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So you on this one?

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It's so. No. So the if there's not this is that is not here. They have to pull out the last.

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Thank you. Sorry

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as well. Thank you.

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Okay, thank you so much. I must.

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Tank

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or C, 23 of the International Sociological Association.

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provide me with the rich, decent grant.

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and, as you all know, I mean.

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I mean mobilizing funds from countries like India. It's really difficult. and R. C. 23 has been very kind to me.

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for why, you would be staying

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what I'm trying to look at. I have 15 min

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 what I have done. I'll try. I've tried to look at gene editing of livestock. And what are the implications there? Am I audible? And what are the implications that we are going to have in the context of the recent science technology, innovation and development policies in India.

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You see, just before.

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getting into the topic. Let me give you a preparatory remark that When India attend independence in 1,947

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The first

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scientific policy resolution was formulated in 1,958.

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Perhaps India was the first country to in the world to formulated science policy

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and and where we missed the bus. That's another story. But And so much of emphasis was given on scientific temper, and how to build scientific institutions. So on Csi, our labs,

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science is a body of knowledge may appear to us as neutral, but science, under certain economic, cultural and political conditions can never be new. Okay, that's a

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if you if you look at Lookouts terrific case in here, I have to refi signs. And so.

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and in the 1990 s. the sift was from. There was a sift from science to technology and technology policy statement was formulated.

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and in 2,003. The government of India wanted to integrate science and technology. And so science, science and technology policy in 2,003

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and 2,013.

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India formulated it, science, technology, innovation and development policy. And then in 2,019 and 2,020, the government tried to device that.

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Okay, that was And why innovation came up? Precisely because India became signatory to the W. 2 agreements in 1,995 earlier India was under process patent regime.

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and I mean the first Indian Button's act of 19 and 70 was subject to only process patents. In other words, one could arrive at the same product by using different processes. But since 2,005 first of January we entered the

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and innovation became a captured in science and technology policies in the Indian context.

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And

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having said this and India was always trying to, I mean, initially, we tried to look at the Soviet model of science. Then we sifted our attention to American model of science, and so on.

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And there is a challenge that can we have an independent science policy.

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Okay, in this context, I am trying to look at

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gene editing of livestock. What is there to be an organism

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to understand genetic engineering and its implications, we need to begin to view it within the larger biological, economic, ecological, and societal contexts.

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many of the problems of genetic engineering arise because you lack an awareness and understanding of these broader contexts, those biological, ecological, economic, political

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in the context.

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we imagine genetic engineering as a way of making meat and descript changes in organisms that result in just as neat and descript

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programs say, for instance, addressing global food security without recognizing how our technical interventions are critically embedded within a complex set of relations of production. Such solutions to problems, in fact, lead to greater problems and genetic engineering is demised upon the fact that a gene is a clearly defined entity carrying out a specific function, and when transferred into a different organism.

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will perform the same function in a new context.

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And that's that such manipulus and often doesn't work according to the plan, can be viewed theoretically as a technical problem to be overcome. But but over the past few decades, what we have noticed that we have come to recognize that and that the gene in itself is context dependent.

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It's okay.

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But I mean, I mean, in the past 3 decades or so, the period in which genetically modified organisms have been developed and commercialized. A wealth of research

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on genetic engineering in relation to environmental effects has been carried out. So in that genes are anything but sets of automatic instructions which are immune to their context.

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This research has significant implications for the manner in which we assess genetic engineering. All genetic engineering is carried out with a specific living organism as the

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medium for gene expression and genes are fundamental to hereditary information of the the organisms, characteristics, functions through a single-minded focus on

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genes, the organism itself. as a whole, coherent being receded into the background, it becomes merely a carrier of genetic material, or as a result of genetic engineering. This perception is one-sided, no doubt about it.

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and an artific and an artifact of the scientific process that focuses on understanding and manipulating parts as a way to effect changes in

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 in the whole.

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In doing so, practitioners of genetic engineering may forget the whole organism that they are doing it.

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The whole organism disappears when collective consciousness I mean it disappears from the collective consciousness, but not from the realm of reality, and such sift

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in awareness from entities to real essence of production, qualities and contexts is what seems to be missing in what drives genetic engineering today.

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at least in Indian context.

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When I say, seed activism in the context of different layers, maybe loss of agro-bi diversity community, said Banks, and so on.

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See? in the 1960 s. And 70 S. Who we witnessed green revolution in the Indian agricultural setup

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and

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 hybrid seeds were used in the 1,900 eighties and nineties. One cent of came to the came into the picture and Mars to hybrid it company along with Monsanto. Now They collaborated with each other to produce genetically modified organisms, and so on, and cotton was first selected as a crop. I mean cotton was a non food crop.

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and Later on Bingel was at it as a food crop.

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and seeds seem to have taken so much for granted until the 1980 S. That we did not even have a vocabulary to talk about Format's contribution to the breeding of plants.

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It was only in the in the early 1,980 s. The 2 pioneering seed activists, namely, Pat Mooney and Gary Fowler Co. That are farmers rights as a counterweight to plank grader sites

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in the following years, in the late 19 eighties, and so on, the demand to recognize farmers, rights to plant genetic resources was put forward. It was the consolidation of transnational agrarian movements in the 1,990 s. That MoD. A turning point with agrarian activists becoming central protagonists in the struggles around seeds.

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the decades since in the 19 nineties, in the first decade of the of the 20 first century, and so on, characterized by remarkable levels of mobileization, and you will find that the group, the civil society organizations which come up with the

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protection of plant varieties and formats Rights act in 2,000. It solve the emergence of new concepts, such as peasant seeds, open source seeds, sovereignty, and so on, which we are associated with new practices of seed conservation and exchange.

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with the support of allied civil society organizations, peasants, and indigenous communities organized to different their rights over agricultural biodiversity and present state systems, using both everyday practices of conservation and exchange common to agrarian communities and more explicit forms of political mobilizes.

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Seed activism is seen as encompassing all actions that, of course, the enclosure of seeds and different individual and collective rights to sits not surprisingly, those whose livelihoods depend on agriculture, namely, peasants, farmers, and indigenous communities now are clearly on the frontline of these struggles. Communities are displaced by every business expansion and lose plant varieties due to genetic.

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A contamination. They are not only denied the right to save seeds, but can also be prosecuted for infringing seat patents. We all know this. The inclusive of seeds has a different impact on small and marginal farmers.

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and this is reflected in the class dynamics of this political and legal mobilization. If differences in land access and ownership E differentiating factors among rural based working classes and probes. So is access to seeds.

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which is another essential input for agricultural production peasants and small farmers who either do not participate in the market oriented seed sector.

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or are only parsley dependent on it for their access to seeds, are most adversely affected by seeds and closures, as their livelihoods depend on their ability to reproduce their own seats. Even those who rely primarily on the market for procuring seeds suffer from increases in seed price resulting from strong proprietary systems, as, unless they are large landowners, their resources are limited.

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The rise of seed activism is the first and foremost. Response to processes of seed enclosures, and to the loss of agro-biodiversity.

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for most of agricultural history seeds have been freely reduced and reproduced and and exchanged by farmers. This is because an intrinsic characteristic of the seed, the capacity to reproduce itself acted as a built in barrier to capital accumulism. Hence, while the agri food system was progressively capitalized

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upstream through the industrialization of agriculture input, and downstream through food processing. Until recently, its productive core farming itself, that is planting and harvesting was not.

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as you all know, the political economy of plant by technology.

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1,492 to 2,000 by Jack Kopenberg, Jr. we all studied during our master's days, and then Phd. Days in fast the seat.

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The political economy of plant matter, as much the radical change brought about through the introduction of agriculture, biotechnology, first hybrid seats, and more recently genetically engineered seeds, is that it allowed a capital to overcome social and biological barriers to the capitalization of agriculture by constraining format's ability to save

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the introduction of biotech crops in the mid 1,900 ninetys in India was accompanied by a Draconian proprietary rights system that includes patents, private licensing contracts entered into up in the purchase of seeds, and the corporate servants of hardware to ensure enforcement of these contracts.

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As a result, not only are farmers legally prohibited from saving and replanting by tech seeds, they no longer even own the seats while planned. Genetic engineering has been instrumental in a setting in of new proprietary rights regimes in agriculture, for example, redeeming since the first of January, 2,000

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5. So

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the contemporary enclosure of seats is not limited to genetically modified sales crops.

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and you will find that

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the need to understand and document the practices which community seed banks have registered this dispatch

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seeds is bicycle commons. If you find that to to understand the commonization of seeds under different conservation and management practices the need to a proceeds. As so by social commons I mean the concept of bi social commons refers to those resources that have both biological benefits as well as social benefits.

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Which are enjoyed by an employed but for the community through collective arrangements.

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 the role of. And in this context, what is the role of independent scientific advisory bodies as disinterested providers of input and India's bi safety regime to the extent that science can be regarded as a neutral or impersonal enterprise. One might have expected it to play an uncontroversial role in the formulation of public policy.

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The licensing of genetically engineered food is one current issue where evolving sensible policy requires scientific. Input

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that's why I started with this prefatory remote that initially cotton I mean, we followed the Soviet model of science, and then

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especially planning. And then we started following a medical model of

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science and technology as well as planning.

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And in this context, a carto in a protocol on by safety. the that the regulatory authorities review and consider the the experience by other countries in dealing with new technologies.

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Nevertheless, there is yet no clarity on how the emerging by technologies will be dealt with in India. Though research has been initiated in several leading institutions.

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bitty cotton is the only genetically engineered plant, a proof for commercial cultivation in India and India's policy on

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agricultural research. It is between us, as your European Union

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Us. Has given absolutely green signal to

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Betty seeds. European Union has said No, and India takes aid from both us as well as the European Union. And now, perhaps, India is not able to take an independent stand

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stand which is independent of these international frameworks, international regulatory bodies, and so on. And we are also not immune to international finance capital.

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Thank you so much. If there is any question I would like to address. Thank you.

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Okay, excellent. So

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I feel like we've done extraordinarily well to put together some more or less coherent talks at this hour of the evening.

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I'm usually deeply involved in the after school run, but, truth be told, my brain checks out long before this hour. So I propose that we don't continue through to the 720 mark. But let's try to have a fast and furious discussion of what we've heard

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so far today. So I think there are lots of interesting points of continuity and things that we can discuss further. There are questions of old practices and new sciences, as in the art of wine, making 2,

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or that emphasis on on balance in aid beta

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the entanglement or permeability of bodies in relation to gestation or aerobic medicine, or their compartmentalization and ratification, as in sort of in that gene editing that we heard of just then. And of course, questions of value, the sort of bio-value and benefit sharing that Sonya mentioned at the start, but also the sort of worth of particular organisms. The panda versus molecule that Nicola I brought up, for example.

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So why don't we open the floor for questions? and sorry. I'll try to keep a good eye on the chat, or please feel free to unmute yourself and jump in at any time.

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Here is what I might do, I might turn my camera on.

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Okay.

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no

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good. Then you can feel a little bit more of a participant, Sonya. So

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for anyone.

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one house.

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yeah.

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9 or 2 weeks.

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I

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most of

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it's like.

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and then you see them of the

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he's he's on the way in the beginning. He's going on

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maybe a 400, and they publish the land on the

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the

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in terms of

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Katherine Kenny: it. It's okay. I got it.

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Katherine Kenny: It's not working. So that's why I'm trying to use this, I think. But can you hear us on? Yeah.

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Katherine Kenny: yes, I can. Now, yeah, I think authenticity is like a really massive question. You know, there are lots of practitioners that will refer to the classic text only. And so, you know, we don't need one science at all like cut it out. We just need what we know. There are others like the people I interviewed in Delhi and Pune that are like actually, modern science holds keys to our science as well, and we can kind of take what we want

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Katherine Kenny: and incorporate it. But the referring back to authenticity is, I think, really political and highly cultural within India.

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Katherine Kenny: In the global context, it's more of a probably a way to commodify it, you know, within, like the New Age kind of scope.

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Katherine Kenny: you know, going back to this kind of esoteric practice of I over there. And it's got these like roots that are deep set in, you know.

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Katherine Kenny: Vedic history. that you can kind of pull out different things like other kind of traditional medicines, have been kind of commodified in this kind of

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Katherine Kenny: context as well. So I think authenticity really kind of goes

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Katherine Kenny: through everything. Yeah, it kind of leaves this way in and out of everything, the kind of use for whatever purpose it really wants.

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Katherine Kenny: So it's yeah. It's hard. But referring to the deferred authenticity is kind of looking back and being like, well, we a lot of what I told, like what I did, talking to practitioners as well, though kind of looking for ways to validate over it as a scientific concept within the biomedical structure itself.

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Katherine Kenny: and obviously this deferred authenticity. When you first

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Katherine Kenny: it's really important for that as well. Yeah, because the to be your microphone. It's also a very modern interpretation of I with the it does not say anything. I mean the it does not say anything about microbiome exactly like scientific time. It's the morning situation of modern science. It does not exist

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Katherine Kenny: in the past.

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Katherine Kenny: Yeah, they don't. But they do with zoom. Oh. Marxist social scientist.

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Katherine Kenny: He, in fact tried to look at I with a note from religious background, but from modern science

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Katherine Kenny: modern scientific background. I mean, if you look at the bulbs, reflex, and so on. You may not get it online because they are yet to be archived properly.

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Katherine Kenny: she was one of those first few in India, maybe in the fifties and sixties, 19 and 1560.

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Katherine Kenny: We try to look at higher weather.

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Katherine Kenny:  not simply as I just system of religious interpretation of medicine or something.

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Katherine Kenny: But you know more technical. We through which you can look at that.

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Katherine Kenny: And you can also look at.

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Katherine Kenny: the volumes of the

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Katherine Kenny: current science is being brought out by

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Katherine Kenny: Indians. that the Institute of Science pendulum.

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Katherine Kenny: Hmm, current science, getting so many articles about our weather and how we interact with our economy, culture and quality, how it became at the Colonial.

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Katherine Kenny: Yeah, there are a lot of we can. Hs available current signs. Actually, even these days, they do that regarding your your presentation, you are saying about

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Katherine Kenny: somebody.

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Katherine Kenny: Yeah. Could I add something to the demo. Give me just 1 s son. Yeah, I've got to. Yeah. Mute this one.

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Can you hear me?

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Yes, okay. Awesome.

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Sonja van Wichelen: First of all, can I just say sorry that we were slotted in at such an evening time, when everyone, indeed, as Katie says, is probably already brain dead. But I I I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed the the present, all the all of the presentations. They were super valuable, and they do have a lot of overlaps. And I wanted to

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Sonja van Wichelen: a raise one that really that really came out to me and and it and it's even present in the this discussion that we're having on on our in the sense that it's funny how

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Sonja van Wichelen: you know, as a sort of politics of authenticity, and the the dimension of the nation, state of nationalism. and then and then this figuration of modernity figures into this discussion, and and in all of our presentations. I believe this this binary between what we think.

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Sonja van Wichelen: you know the Lutorian moderns that, in fact, has never been there, but it's continually sleep being being performed as such. whether that's in the in. You know the the the politics around are your Veda or around maternal microbiome. It seems like this is.

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Sonja van Wichelen: it seems, always present.

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Sonja van Wichelen: and and it, especially in the first 2 papers, is present in this dichotomy between the Pistorian and the post-pasturian. moment. So I'm I'm just wondering in each

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Sonja van Wichelen: of these instances how

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Sonja van Wichelen: that tension  Which, in fact, is attention, that we.

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Sonja van Wichelen: you know, reproduce every time.

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Sonja van Wichelen: how how we can think of this tension otherwise without  without

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Sonja van Wichelen: reliving that binary So, for instance, in in in my case.

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Sonja van Wichelen: or or even in the case. who was talking about the the balance. It's just a matter of balance. I I, Natasha. This idea of thinking in

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Sonja van Wichelen:  the right diversity, or thinking in the right balance, how that can help us to think beyond this historian, post-pasteurian dichotomy.

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Sonja van Wichelen: because, while it is super helpful to

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Sonja van Wichelen: analyze and super helpful for for our analysis. It's it's it's

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Sonja van Wichelen: it's also putting us in a sort of gridlock. So I'm just wondering how

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Sonja van Wichelen: each of you thought of these issues in terms of trying to think beyond these conceptual binaries.

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Katherine Kenny: I'm bringing you back to the floor, Sonya. Okay, great.

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Katherine Kenny: So

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Katherine Kenny: oh, it's okay.

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Katherine Kenny: that's such a good question, Sonya. And to me I think it resonates at at least 2 levels, one at the level of theorizing and then about the level of practice. so. And and there seems to be, oh, okay, actually, I'll when I stop talking, I'll switch to that and there seems to be an interesting

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Katherine Kenny: bridge

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Katherine Kenny: that comes out of your talks on you about sort of notification, in a way. So bear with me as I try to string these thoughts together. But

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Katherine Kenny: one of the one of the things that is routinely suggested, for example, in hospitals, or with respect to using antibiotics, is that we need to move away from broad spectrum antibiotics, and we need the sort of capacity to do more rapid rapid, rapid diagnostic testing to know what bugs we're dealing with in order to target them. More precisely.

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Katherine Kenny: So there's this sort of move towards personalization that.

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Katherine Kenny: I think speaks to sort of what we what you are saying about personalization. I have Vada, It's analogous in a lot of ways to the work that I've done in precision medicine and you know, genetic sequencing of tumor types in order to really target therapies

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Katherine Kenny: at the level of the genome. And of course, the connection there is that a lot of that rapid diagnostic testing for bugs isn't about sensitivity testing. It's about testing the genome of the bugs. of the sort of infectious agents. So

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Katherine Kenny: the so, yeah, there are so many sort of networked connections.

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Katherine Kenny: I guess, and that's coming from that more practice oriented perspective. I don't think I have a good answer to it on a more theoretical level.

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other than to hack them back to that connection between

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Katherine Kenny:  you know.

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Katherine Kenny: between bugs and their context bugs and their environments. And as you're saying with you know, with like, the information about

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Katherine Kenny: particular population shit is only valuable in so far it relates to that environment. So there's sort of a situatedness, a kind of yeah relationality to it that we need to account for as well.

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Katherine Kenny: I don't want to come and hear the phone. Does anybody have further thoughts?

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Katherine Kenny: Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry your officer.

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Katherine Kenny: Yeah, I mean, obviously, your question is very well that whether we can think beyond this buying and your position, which is, of course, I mean post models concept.

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Katherine Kenny: But then, if you look in other way, why do we need to eliminate the spine at it? Because if you look at the history of sociology. You go to Hagan. You go to call months.

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Katherine Kenny: It's not

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Sonja van Wichelen: sorry. I don't know if you hear me, but I can't hear you.

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Confex Tech Support - Caitlin: Hello! This is tech support. Can someone on the podium please unmute the microphone?

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Oh, thank you. Thank you, Nasville. Can you just try to try that one more time? Can you hear? Now, son, yeah, can you hear?

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Confex Tech Support - Caitlin: We can hear you. Thank you.

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Yeah.

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 And you

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oh, so I have to repeat all this. Okay, I mean I I totally. I mean I agree with your point that your point has some merit, that whether we can think beyond this by by binary opposition, or this is binary model, which is again is I mean, many post modern is the talk about this.

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I mean, if you look at some post-modern literature, I mean, they want to eliminate the binary.

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the binary opposition. But then, if you look at the history of the development of sociology, we start from Hegel Hegel. Talk about thesis enthusiasm

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next is more. If you talk about Karl Marx, he talk about bile It's a dialectic materialism, and then negotiation of negotiation. And then again, so my my point is that, why do you need to eliminate this primary? In fact, if there is no binary, then it will not move forward, and this and the sociology will move

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continuously. Move forward right in in next decade on next decades. So probably there's the other way to think that if we eliminate by all this, by and everything, are are we going to going back to this egalitarianism which is just an hypothesis? We see, I mean, Socialism has collapsed. It did not go to egalitarianism.

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So we we again came back to monopoly capitalism, which was the earliest estate of Socialism.

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So how can is sociology sustain without this kind of binary opposition or binary narratives?

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That's that's a great comment. and if I may just shortly. Go ahead. Just just unmute. We can't hang on just 1 s. Let me fix this current disaster.

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How we love technology. And

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Sonja van Wichelen: that's that's that's a fair point and and and I guess what I meant to say is not that we need to go beyond theoretically, because we need to those binaries, indeed, to do any form of analysis right. This is this is how we This is how we

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Sonja van Wichelen: think theoretically about the sites that we see, and and with with microbiome research especially, or with epigenetics. You can't. You can't do the analysis without those dichotomies. And I think, Latour, who

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Sonja van Wichelen: who? Who? His? His book on We have never been modern. It, you know, rests on this

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Sonja van Wichelen: on this exact binary, but I think but I think I'm I'm thinking, more in terms of

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Sonja van Wichelen: practice in in terms of I I remember Nikolai's paper on wine describing What was it? Again?

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Sonja van Wichelen: The the emergence of the post-pastorian ways of thinking around. you know the yeast, but but that it it's not as if that wasn't there already. Right. I I think Nikolai would would agree with me. So so I I I'm just curious whether winemakers, cheesemakers, kids with bugs, mothers with bugs have have

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Sonja van Wichelen: experienced practiced bugs, wine, cheese in a way

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Sonja van Wichelen: that weren't

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Sonja van Wichelen:  epistemologically framed in these ways, and I think and I think they are the way in which we experience embodiment, or or taste, or smell that, that, I guess, is goes beyond these categories. And I'm I'm just.

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Sonja van Wichelen: I'm really curious to see whether in some of the ethnographic work these kind of moments emerge as well. and of course we will analyze them within those 2

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Sonja van Wichelen: conceptual frameworks that are the economists.

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Sonja van Wichelen: But but I I'm yeah. I'm I'm trying to tease out whether especially in the ethnographic work that we've we've heard today whether these instances

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Sonja van Wichelen: emerge and maybe not. But I I think I think there could be.

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Certainly that's such a good point, and I know that in the next stage of my research, I'm really interested in hearing how you know, mothers, fathers, informal carers think through how they're managing the microbial world like, what is it that they imagine themselves to be doing in relation to what kind of framework but the other point I wanted to make was that one of the things I think the field of Sts does particularly well

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is locating all of these questions

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at a particular historical moment, and so putting it in relation to you know the the.

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not just, the state of the science, but also what's going on in the world. So you know that point about COVID-19. Really reshaping how people are sort of engaging with the microbial world, I think, will continue to play out for a really long time. I think that you know the really nice point in touch of.

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01:39:54.480 --> 01:40:05.060
you know, the biomedical frameworks being overlaid on top of iomedic practices. All of those things are deeply, historically situated in ways that I think that

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props to Sts. I think we're quite well situated to do that kind of work. but I also recognize that we're getting laid here. Are there any questions that any burning questions that remain? Nicholas?

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I just want to say quickly, it's on. Yeah. I think I agree with you. that the sort of finerization of post-pasterion pester, and maybe not that analytically useful.

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and I think you're right, that when you look at the actual ethnographic stuff.

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it's really much more messy than that. And it's you. You wouldn't be able to class things cleanly. And I think what you were saying about the personalised medicine. You also see that in agriculture, and there's a sort of development of

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really high-tech approaches that are sort of

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01:40:51.459 --> 01:40:58.159
in a way postponed, but in a way, really not. And then you've got others that are arguably pre like posts, sort of as an afters.

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And I think what you said, Sonia, is so true that a lot of these things have been going on for

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longer than we know.

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So yeah, so I think I agree with you. All I want to say

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consensus is always a great note to end on. So, Sonya. Thank you for joining us from far away and thank you everyone for bearing with us with the the tech definitely worth it to have you with us, though, Sonya. So thank you all to the panelists and the audience members for coming along tonight and go and get some dinner.