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vion-a: do you do, would you? I'll do the panel, I'll do the panel. No problem. I'm just asking you, do you want to make a little introduction to? I'm I'm okay. Okay. So the objective of the of the panel is to to explore the links between

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vion-a: tax policies and and tax optimization opportunities and practices.

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vion-a: And we, we have a first

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vion-a: to notice that there is a great. There has been in the past decade a great.

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vion-a: a renewal of fiscal sociology. with many readings and comments of of classical sociology in treacher. So, for example, we we we have exciting books by by Isaac Martin, and and colleagues, or on Manford.

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vion-a: and they did a a big big effort to renew the the these readings and the the perspectives of the school sociology, we add on on another side, comparative studies of fiscal policies

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vion-a: in a perspective of development studies with much attention to stability, growth, political regimes and so on, you know. And

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vion-a: more recently we had also a great renewal after Atkinson's works on our longitudinal studies of fiscal inequalities. what we are trying to to to to to today is a bit different from this perspective.

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vion-a: but what we want to do is to to link more. You know attention to practices, social practices to these literature. So I think that what is very exciting in the in the session is that

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vion-a: we we try to join macro analysis of the of what some of the of the the the participants call fiscal pacts of this call software contracts.

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vion-a: and

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vion-a: also a more micro perspective on the social practices

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vion-a: of fiscal avoidance, of fiscal optimization and and attention to, to, to, to to expertise, and to the the professional advice on tax optimization, and so on. So I think this will be a very exciting session, because because there are, of course.

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vion-a: 2 different ways to to address this one is more macro and more more focused on on fiscal policies, and and the other one is more ethnographic or or based on on on on, you know, very specific practices of tax optimization. So

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vion-a: of course, we will have to make an effort to link this and to relate all these perspectives. So this is the the the big challenge of the session. I guess so. I hope we'll have a few time for for a few minutes for discussing this in this perspective.

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vion-a: And please, then it's now I'm very happy to

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vion-a: to give you the the chair. Or maybe my, my! This would would like to add a few few words, my niece, would you? No, no, no, that's fine. I'd like to get to the presentations. This is so exciting. This is just a wonderful time. So let's begin here. If we could.

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vion-a: Okay, fine

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begin.

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mailysgantois: Okay.

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mailysgantois: So I think I'm close to one right

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trying to trying to get you up here.

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mailysgantois: Can you hear me?

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Just a second? She'll bring us up.

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Hi! Yes, we can hear you. If you can share your screen in your It's an our presentation, for my part. So if it's okay to hear me, it will be okay.

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mailysgantois: Please, please do it. My, I can

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mailysgantois: you? You want me to share. Okay. But no, I think that without just to that's okay.

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mailysgantois: So thank you so much for listening to me right now. so I would like to talk about tax optimization strategies and practices. and it's like I phone system is still. So might be such for queues. on, on,

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mailysgantois: on, on our tax optimization practices. And for us as private and public individuals can adopt private and public strategies to optimize payments.

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mailysgantois: so say. But then 2 walls at least, as you, one of the reason, now owner to the taxpayer and the one of the taxpayer as any taxpayer. oh, no, not

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mailysgantois: also, as you can use a variety of consultants due to economic and legal constraints linked to the fumes activities and you to private properties in link or not. with our company.

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mailysgantois: during my kg, and suspect the great research field work. I still need a collective bargaining. So we're on as a subfield. As I said, creative bargaining actors and practices.

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mailysgantois: When's investigate collective bargaining. from 3. Sorry to call first premises game, social regulation and Marxist series. But I decided to work from actors, ids and practices using the sociology of institutions and combining since your historical and to political and economic feature tools.

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mailysgantois: So for this new research, I use the security of provisions knowledge and expertise. I want to focus on the daily job of in terms for this over presentation. I present the opportunity to open within a specific working place.

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mailysgantois: So when there is a multitude of works of studies on corrective bargaining in sciences. So it's not a lot of work and tax optimization of tax evasion. And it doesn't work. This is the how it's really going to work to get data within a social world and to bother having a kind of legal job.

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mailysgantois: So that being said that we can find some actors, writings, mostly from journalists and economists

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mailysgantois: we can formulate 2 exceptions at least. first, this is due to a lack of interest for a subject which seems for the to close and to the

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mailysgantois: so beyond. This is difficulty. There'll be such an ampere to to investigate this understudy, the social world to participate, and to this call and propose to question and prior to expertise from the Empire in terms of the daily work.

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mailysgantois: excuse me just just a minute. I, I think I I do have a problem with my computer because it's not anything. So I'm I'm I'm coming back right now. I

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mailysgantois: I think.

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mailysgantois: oh.

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mailysgantois: so

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mailysgantois: okay.

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I, I

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mailysgantois: me

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mailysgantois: and sometimes it's difficulties. It is a research on. And they can't just to investigate this. And just indeed, a social one. So that's back to this call I propose to question, and for I am for your tax practices from the employer intermediaries, daily work, and also proposed to investigate.

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mailysgantois: So social.

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mailysgantois: for this one communication, I present my initial questions, and my first ethnographic and data collected, knowing that it is a very beginning of my work. We say, with any funding that but I keep my finger, of course, but I do have contacts inviting social ones.

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mailysgantois: We develop a close on economic relationships with employers and the W. We. Z. Within the finance. I do have contracts in the bank and go see it in sectors. for this conference I decide to focus on the job by the amount of the finance world. I'm not necessarily commonly South as the first one to study. This is solicitor.

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mailysgantois: I discovered that this job can be. That's a course world of the public and private boundaries for several points to to the complex board of Economic Adviser and produce some legal formal documents.

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mailysgantois: First, I present my initial questions in link with my research project and led on tax policies and practices. She can't. I describe and analyze each other, one specific expert of consultants which can be situated as a score of public and private strategies and practices. So not not not in French. In conclusion, I would be glad to get feedback and critics on the research project. And on the first data quality to go further.

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mailysgantois: so the first point is to understand that small and large companies tax practices, for instance, in our study France and United Kingdom, and perhaps us. So I will go fast on this first part. this is, I need to presents the main research direction.

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mailysgantois: a a key question here, how do small and large companies and their shareholders manage to avoid tax? And perhaps how does this contribute to produce or reproduce equally and social inequalities

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mailysgantois: an international consortium of investigative journalists. We basically, we deal with the leak organization of financial and the deprivation of tax resources for states. So the development of transmission in our tax evasion practices and networks. Some professionals provide specific knowledge. they techniques and parties that allow even legalize.

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mailysgantois: So prevention of for the state of the social, we distribution by tax evasion. My research program proposes go to studies of tax practices and the economic elite schools, the market of professionals who are are considered as experts in this field. To some, while question is divided into 3 research lines through the first The international inter relation and trans. National configurations make

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mailysgantois: Vivianne taxpayer practices possible the trajectories of professionals who have become expense in this field. And so what we cover the very work of this kind of expertise. As I use the scales of observation. Macro, Meso and Microsoft space realize, an interdisciplinary study that combines social history. And it's not. It focuses on this

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mailysgantois: located in France and in Uk, and perhaps later in the Us. To in close discussion with Ontario to, we think, tax optimization practices from a sociological. I, we propose a kind of political

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mailysgantois: yeah, it is my research program contract line that I'm not sure. I do have a lot of time to present that. So it's a a kind of so it's called approach to understand the making of tax deviance for it. Experience. So to sync historically, geographically. And

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mailysgantois: so it's a

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mailysgantois: to combine to approach zoom a specific kind of expertise. So So one part. So I I I I say that. I want to go fast in the first part, because it's not a zoom, a call of this, a presentation. So the second point is, first, if no after that are collected from a daily mission within the Service office.

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mailysgantois: economic and legal expert. You can public lawyer and permit Hendber, the solicitor, can be a used for several reasons in any individual life, even to the this. for an epnographic, a feed work based on a daily direct observations and semi-directed interviews. this part extracts the search, those they are external to the every job and done

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mailysgantois: which can have as goal effect of consequence, to decrease, to minimize, even to hide public tax

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mailysgantois: from economic. I'm legal, avoiding strategies, learned step by State during his legal and proficient and training, so incorporate a kind of specifically guard and economic avoiding tax expertise, made small daily practices and relationships to the IQ of sales in action permits to see to describe out in, analyze, to borders between the public and the private economic part.

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mailysgantois: and question what it produces in the valuity of still one and tax are partly incorporated to decrease economic and legal obligations as to the tax expectations for the solid. See those clients which can incorporate several social worlds so empires of social, of being companies? When does on inevitors? Why, for husbands, daughter, and son, and so on.

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mailysgantois: So the first point here, what I directly observed appropriation of a job under the board at the course of the Joyce and of the economic and regard advisor

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mailysgantois: here at present, first technographic observations and w's that that so I mostly did last year before leading more interviews and observations, I institute here first observations with the office where I followed the day job and the men's of the office. his, and he's partners.

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mailysgantois: So we can say it's a job incorporated into in the inheritance of a long family definition. I am in the name of the

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mailysgantois: and of them I we still got a family. He's he's coming from a French. I we still got family she got married

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mailysgantois: and that, thanks to his series of office, unlimited. So he pursued a legal training training at the University, and here to become a still still in and at the end of his leg and training he got few jobs as 20 lower clerk, solicitor, employee, and even a state agent

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mailysgantois: after his.

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mailysgantois: and one

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mailysgantois: also his his grandfather before him, and so on. we're solicitor at the office, too. He got some difficulties to succeed to get his legal diploma, but he got solid resources for appropriating his job in the In A,

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mailysgantois: and with the help of his poser, who is working in the property sector. As a property agent.

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mailysgantois: He sees the solicitor's job at the post board of several of the law particularly, and of tax law, property, legislation, law of Succession Company. No, but for business. He thinks he does not really belong to this job. It would be for Gloria's. According to him, even if the spell does have to know about it for the clients. He likes to say he works for the public order and for the White House cause, so as it.

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mailysgantois: That was just to situate my position in the office onto his eye. I just would like to say

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mailysgantois: he developed a a kind of complex relationship with academics does between emeration and revision. He sees me as a poor fisher because he knows I got a Phd. In sociology, and he always forgot about political science. because I presented myself a a as a doctor in political science and in society. But you only consider, I remember as my key discipline.

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mailysgantois: So he knows my sales work was about quality and and also things. And One of the first thing he said to me was, would you like to depos your this decision at my office?

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mailysgantois: so

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mailysgantois: a job to protect individual interests in front of the State and of the administrative legal obligation. During the first meeting with him, he's saying to me, I am a controller. He means a finance and controller. I have to make the individual space attacks. I am a public official, but I am not an official. I am here to make my clearance pays less tax possible

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mailysgantois: so and as I say, and also a job, or what we can. we can say a job to advice individuals considering economic and legal contracts.

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mailysgantois: He know that he said. Here in the town. I do anything I work for anyone I can produce property. Capital gains.

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mailysgantois: You can change the legal characterization of girls. You change the League under study that it's juice. Sorry. I am a tax specialist, we are technicians. So during my observation within the office, I directly observed his meetings with clients.

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mailysgantois: I also stayed within his office doing his daily job when he works and on his computer. And when he has dive right? Phone calls, I stayed close to him in front of his computer doing his legal job to produce some legal acts.

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mailysgantois: He was really proud to show me how and what he does during his daily work. so I was there when clients called him for getting good advice. Before coming at the office to complain, to conclude on act, or to get more advice. often he is doing direct phone calls. He gives the best tweaks.

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mailysgantois: For instance, one day a lady directly called him on his personal phone to ask for getting an advice about a property transaction. He gave her first advice and proposed to come back to her with more economic and Megan details both to decrease her legal tax and to increase her capital gains. She was really happy about that.

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mailysgantois: right after the call, he said to me see, this is a typical case where and he said he's like his last name plays. She was a client of my father, and she asked me for getting an advice. Meaning at the border of what is it? Is leg on in France?

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mailysgantois: directly on my phone. So without calling having advice is what would be legal even at the border on the of the load, to get more mo the most managed. Come

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mailysgantois: I do have to give her the best advice for increasing her capital, considering the economic and legal situation surprisingly he considers he self does as a public officer. So to first client to pay legal talks, but as a private consultant, to give them economic and legal advice, to do what it is possible to pay the list

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mailysgantois: so

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mailysgantois: he can give advice is for in a details of big companies, but also for a wife of them. really, rich a husband or anything else. After this call he showed me he got at the university legal courses and explain.

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Excuse me, Professor, you have just 1 min to conclude.

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mailysgantois: okay, sorry. But the time is running out. Okay, okay, I said, I I should know 5 min before. But that's okay.

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mailysgantois: So, of course, focus on to analyze the direct observation and interviews. during the direct observation. I don't. Within the office. I understood the prior of the world. But most importantly, I understood this. Still, job can be situated. That's a border of legal illegal practition. He does know very well that's low.

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mailysgantois: so so can be analyzed as an elite, or perhaps more. Again, as a not not only he's begun. Training is necessary to get influence and clients. the solicitor has to become a local, not So because he got a really poor relationship in the into town. So what I would like to submit for this discussion. is to consider the notion of experience.

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And first, following your research past, suggested by Professor Gillard to study, expertise, and expand

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mailysgantois: as a soy, because I didn't develop some relationships. I I I didn't. I was too long. So

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mailysgantois: usually the this is this first of suspicion that is linked to expertise or expense.

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mailysgantois: Yet for Gillian and a distract we should sync, or we think about first in a sociological way of thinking so we could think about first expense advice as based on institutional relationships. So in the case expense belong to an inherited office where professional relationships are linked to pilot and public relationships. So this sorry stolics public in charge of making legal apps.

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mailysgantois: That is the fact. in France and and everyone, even if he's a legal expert in charge of making the law. He's also private. It's not in charge of giving the best economic and legal tweaks for the offices, clients.

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mailysgantois: so just to conclude. I would like to post you, you know, observation to post your interviews and observation also. I want to. Financial world. but I think this limit case. give us a lot of thing to think about. So the world of values professional experts in this in in this social world where we understood it.

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mailysgantois: So thank you so much for listening to me. And I I will. respond that any questions. again.

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Thank you. Thank you very much.

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Excellent.

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Could you call the slides up for the

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vion-a: so can can you see my presentation?

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Yes.

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vion-a: okay.

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good. So now we turn to Professor von a preponderance of the British Virgin Islands in the architecture of offshore financial circuits. Please.

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vion-a: Thank you. Thank you very much. So I I the the the case I will present now is something a bit different that we manage with my list, and it's a more transnationally scaled case. You know what my least presented is is very

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vion-a: is much more local. This one is is much

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vion-a: from international. So I will present this in 4 points. First, I I do a short state of yards on the question of of tax optimization and and tax evasion. Then I I will just present the Panama Papers data. Then I will just turn to. the question of what are the practices, the technical practices of professionals, and what we call offering tricks.

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vion-a: And then we'll prior and explain the structural position of the British Virgin Islands in the in all this

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vion-a: these practices and this some blazes that we can observe through these data. So first is a short state of the we we have first

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vion-a: there. I've been first a lot of studies on on tax haven. So I just mentioned the the pure pioneering ones which are hempton and and balance

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vion-a: it's the studies. But of course, now for for for for 2 2 decades the there have been a lot of of studies of of tax. Ev, so I won't go back to this literature. I guess many of, you know, a little bit of this, and we can go back to this on the during the discussion.

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vion-a: what is.

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vion-a: I think, more important for us right now is is

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vion-a: to take tax optimization as a norm. And and this has been, just suggested by a few, a few people. I I may forget some. So please please, excuse me if I if I forget some people who were just in the audience. But They are. There is a a first study on cohesive tax evasion and social norms, which is

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vion-a: a kind of economic one. A more recent one is, of course, the the very interesting book and exciting book edited by Katar and a pistor on the code of capital, where where she just

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vion-a: try to to explain how the the, the, the reforms, the the financial reforms I've reshaped totally reshaped fiscal regimes. And and of course, the ability to to invest any way, any anywhere in the world. So if if she has a some very very

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vion-a: tight you know. technical points on this and This is also what we are trying to to address with my least in this study.

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vion-a: And the last thing is is something, guy I just

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vion-a: educating in 2,022. It's a

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vion-a: the idea that when you take a look at tax evasion, so you take a look at what

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vion-a: I call it, accounting it throughout the place. That's

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vion-a: that is that I I just quotes what I growth in this paper do they use may need to of fiscal optimization. now, in widespread use, combined to create what could be called an accounting.

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vion-a: which is a term inspired by by Foucault. which means, of course, spaces that suspend, neutralize or reverse the relationships to to other locations. And in effect, tax havens offer a means for constricting and accounting

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vion-a: Iterotokia by permitting the registration of of what we could call fictitious

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vion-a: duplicates. So these technologies are, you know,

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vion-a: for example, umbrella companies, or you know,

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vion-a: fronts from companies, and so on. And this is what we try to to to discover. when taking a look at the the data stored in the Panama papers.

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vion-a: which is how all these duplicates are all these assemblages made up

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vion-a: so? A few words? Now this is my second point

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vion-a: on the the panel papers leak, which, of course, you know, so I won't be very long on these. you know that it's just the main leak. They have been others like the Paradise papers of so on. But this remains the the the the largest

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vion-a: and the biggest volume of data. So it's quite interesting to try to retrieve. you know, cases and and and practices from these data. I will say a few words on this data, so

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vion-a: they they are. This is constructed by by

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vion-a: many. attend much much attention to entities, officers

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vion-a: intermediaries.

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vion-a: also the addresses of all these people. So what is quite interesting is that you know

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vion-a: this data is, of course. very untouchable to to do some, some, some sociological and analysis. Because the first, it's data from backup aggregation. So there are a lot of duplicate. So it's not very easy to to

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vion-a: to try to explore this.

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vion-a: What has been stalled online is is sometimes known time. So we know when for example, the the companies have been,

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vion-a: you know

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vion-a: a dissolved or something, but we don't know exactly when the arrangements have been made there. There is also no sharp amount of financial transactions so appropriate. We should say this is not a usable to score for for for solicule inquiries. But as soon as we use some some semantic web exploration tools, so

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vion-a: we can do something which is quite interesting. It's to try to reconstitute

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vion-a: the chains of tax arrangements and the chains of you know. you know, tax tax evasion. devices. So

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vion-a: the the methods we used is to trace the chains of mailboxes. So to trace the secrets of evolution. Yeah, the forms of.

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vion-a: It's a realtor. Yeah, defined by the long location of front companies. So I in in in in 2 papers, the one I I quoted, and in the one we wrote with the with my list, we retrieve 3 key practices, what we called offshoring tricks. One is our cutting, the second is partitioning, and the third is supporting. I will go fast to this third point occurred. Thing is.

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vion-a: of course, what's what has been quite documented by the by, the literature and also by you know, in Parliamentary investigation committees. this has become

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vion-a: a kind of industrial practice, you know.

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vion-a: to

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vion-a: to to register some companies in in offshore, you know, place is quite a quite unusual, like hotel streets or or hotel rooms, and so on. And

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vion-a: one of the trick is to register these

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vion-a: by occurring

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vion-a: with type of graphic you know, meetings the the the address of this of these places. So what is done is that there? There is a kind of automatic, you know, metadata of for quoting you change a letter, or you change a a point, or you change the the the the phones, and so on. And then

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vion-a: you are able to to just occult the existence of a big volume of companies in the place and especially if there is a a control of fiscal control, you know. So, for example, I give a case here. What is quite interesting is that we we usual meet, that you will in in the in the international consulting of of investigation journalists. They only find one or 2 companies link to to an address, and we, as soon as you.

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vion-a: you semantic approximation. So you retrieve more than 80 companies related to only one address, and and there is a high number of case like this. So this is the the the, the first. The first thing the second is is partitioning networks. So you use many intermediaries and front companies all around the words, and you do that through a different.

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vion-a: you know, to different types of entities and assembly. I won't go back to this, but this is in the paper. What is quite interesting is that.

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vion-a: Professor Vian, you have 5 min. Yeah, I, this is will be okay. So the first one is that you know you have an intermediaries

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vion-a: of one.

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vion-a: the one guy located in Dubai, you know, and you have, many companies which are which which place

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vion-a: which play out as as intermediaries and

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vion-a: you also have intermediaries and the same ones.

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vion-a: To another people which who knows the first one, but who never acts with him. And then when you go and and try to

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vion-a: discover who is the who is the the hidden? you know. casters gathering size, as we could say. then you'll find a a third one. And so the the the the way this is made up is all is always to partition the network, and then, of course to make impossible to retrieve

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vion-a: erez Agmoni all the the ramification of the network. The third one is porting. So if you take a look at the umbrella companies. You you just notice in this database that 150

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vion-a: there is. There are a lot of umbrella companies who hold many entities, and most of them were created by the by Mosak Fansica, but all all the ones by pulse. And what is quite important is that all these companies are as are registered as international business companies in tax havens.

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vion-a: if you take a look at the distribution of umbra companies, you will see that this is much more you know, located in a in a Switzerland cycles and and all the all the countries. But as soon as you take a look

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vion-a: at the the jurisdiction to which these companies are subject. So what is very surprising is that you will find first the British Virgin Islands. So the question is to explain the structural position of the British Virgin Island, and I will end back this in just 1 1 min.

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vion-a: The first idea is to say that the budget British Virgin Islands. our very special Kamala country. It's a common, a country which makes it possible to arbitrate between, of course, Commonwealth companies and the United States.

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vion-a: but it has been progressively constructed as a kind of non-standard common, no legal regime, and this is.

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vion-a: of course, because the inhabitants manage to build a relatively autonomous government of the to to establish their own rule of territorial law. So there is a specificity of of, you know, standing and assuming to be outside international law

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vion-a: mit Ctl, and why retaining the English? protectorates. So this allows a lot of legal arrangements, and in particular fiscal arrangements, and this allows to attract a lot of foreign investment and and investors, especially in the tourism industry and in the offshore financial services sector. So what is important. Here is that 150.

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vion-a: There is a N audience just published in in 1,984, which is on international business companies and in she you just remember what I said a few minutes before. So I just said that international business companies are a key practice, you know, importing and in in in in just managing tax evasion. So what

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vion-a: we notice when we take a look at what happens in in the Bbi is that

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vion-a: Erez agmoni there are a lot of professional markets of offshore finance there we see a lot of us law consulting groups with broadly dispersed national correspondents who act as a specialist in. They're facing legal rules throughout jurisdiction 250.

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vion-a: We take a look. We are now taking a look at annual conference to promote in that instance in Bbi. And and I'm now to scrapping and and storing this annual meeting to assess the evolution of of influences and practice, and and the involvement of of

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vion-a: experts from all over the world. So thank you very much for your attention.

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vion-a: and we stop sharing, I think. Thank you very much for that excellent presentation

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next one.

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So now we'll continue with the Drexer crossover and in inequality, tax perceptions, redistributes and preferences and expectations towards a State among the political elite in Mexico.

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vion-a: Is it? Is Alice? closer. There I'm I'm not sure that she's

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vion-a: She has attended the conference

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vion-a: decision. I'm sorry.

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Yes, going to the next one

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vion-a: So in Professor Grocer's absence, we'll continue then. Professor quarry.

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border optimization issues and genesis of the social construction of tax optimization practices at the front coast with border by professionals. Please begin if you would.

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marie Quarrey: Okay, thank you. can I share my screen?

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vion-a: And if you, if you just share the screen at the at the bottom of your screen, it will be okay, Mary.

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marie Quarrey: okay.

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vion-a: just do it as usual. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah. So

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vion-a: yeah, you can. Now,

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I mean.

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vion-a: yes.

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marie Quarrey: okay.

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vion-a: okay, thank you.

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marie Quarrey: so hello, everyone. And thank you for your invitation I'm just pleased to to to in this section

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marie Quarrey: my contribution concerned the making of tax optimization. And by this I understand the legal use of the national tax regime by intermediaries

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marie Quarrey: such as financial consultants, but also associations and other private forms. I actually work on a cross border area between France and Switzerland to country governed by a a tax agreement, and, as you can already see, the subject is highly complex and the bit obscure as this is why I'm going to to start by explaining why I became interested in this topic.

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marie Quarrey: I'm doing a Phd. And taxpayers who live in France and work in Switzerland, which basically corresponds to people who are living here in the here and here in Sabo.

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marie Quarrey: I analyze the relationship between these cross borders and French tax administration and the starting point for my research at that cross borders talk a lot about tax discontent when dealing with administrative formalities in France.

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marie Quarrey: and, in fact, in the number of forms. because in France you have to fill in forms a tax return every year. for for taxes, especially income tax.

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marie Quarrey: So the number of tax return is increasing from 2,008 to 2,023

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marie Quarrey: for instance, a survey to explain that before 2,008 he had to fill in a 3 tax return, whereas today he has to fill in 6 in addition to to that, at the end of tax increased in in 2,014.

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marie Quarrey: So in this context, many of the respondents use in German. There is to optimize tax or pay less

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marie Quarrey: and tax exemption advertising has been widely spread over the the last year. So I've conduct 15 interviews with the intermediaries asking you very basic question, who are these tax intermediaries? And how do they help to create a legitimate definition of tax optimization.

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marie Quarrey: According to a online survey with the 336 cross borders, they are 2 main group of the tax intermediaries. First, when free intermediaries

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marie Quarrey: family friends, and the tax administration, but also paid intermediaries, such as association and independent firms banks, financial concerns, administrative assistance firms, etc.

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marie Quarrey: I'm going to focus on page intermediaries because 4 elements as standouts from my survey. The first one is that the profile highly disparate and do not much to the classical description of the graduate survey. They usually, Scribe has a tax lawyer working in the Big 4 and help reach to find offshore schemes like

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marie Quarrey: the article of but this is not the case for my survey. because we can see that there is a. There are a lot of different statues for intermediaries, such as association, but also private firms

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marie Quarrey: and a third elements it, that clients earn a high suite income and has capitalized pension. So it's a large sum to invest. And finally, the fourth element is that there is. There are different possibilities of tax exemption, such as property investments

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marie Quarrey: which would permit to buy housing, rent it out and then benefit from a tax rebate.

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marie Quarrey: So these elements frame social condition for construction of tax optimization in 3 way. firstly.

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marie Quarrey: tax optimization. As soon as the legal processes practice by normalizing tax optimization.

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marie Quarrey: In fact, in Germany's use with the rhetoric of administrative persons to and for the importance of helping cross borders with the formalities in this context, tax optimization would be an extension. For of this help.

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marie Quarrey: for instance, I've conducted an interview with the ken with his director of an administrative assistance firms and she highlights the difficulties and the importance. For of her role as a social worker for the rich and for her optimizing is an extension of a good tax return strategy.

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marie Quarrey: So following. And this, the intermediaries talk about the legality of tax optimization activities, and they insist on the legality of the tax practices proposed in order to justify their legal expertise.

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marie Quarrey: Talking about the legal expertise. we can see that intermediary has have 2 point of view, and the legal expertise on tax administration

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marie Quarrey: tax optimization. Sorry the first one it's by making look

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marie Quarrey: a first group standouts mainly composed of private firms. and we have an example with the Yanis, a financial consultants, and he compares his activity, which, consists of using low in favor of his clients to the activity of tax administration which implements case law.

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marie Quarrey: So paradoxically, these professional consider themselves to be on the fringes on the legal sphere, but they participate in shaping it by playing with it's controller, and then by faulting the tax administration to clarify the meaning of the standards

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marie Quarrey: other respondents. from association work with tax administration add up to different stents, which consist in reading low.

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marie Quarrey: If the example of Nathan and I'm pray of an association. He! He said, that it does not play around with the the that's play with it.

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marie Quarrey: It mean that he uses it as a an instruments, and he reads the law. He applied it where by word refers to what is written in administrative guidelines for experts rather than on the official platform where, the official platform provides only a basic information and that specific information and a cross border taxpayer.

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marie Quarrey: This restaurants in spontaneously refer to the legal system in order to affirm their legality of their activities and positions themselves in relation to the law.

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marie Quarrey: The same on step is to consider the content of optimization.

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marie Quarrey: 2 groups of intermediaries, again, can be identified in the light of their relationship with tax administration and the type of optimizations it promotes.

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marie Quarrey: The first one is a paper based optimization. again, with the example of Nathan the employee of the Association, he, the Association, has a really full tax administration. So. Firstly, he refutes the notion of tax optimization, and he explained that tax optimization is not within the remains.

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marie Quarrey: But next you consider the form space. And I need to optimize. the tax return by strategically filling in certain boxes on the phone.

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marie Quarrey: the 7 way is optimizing wells up to me. optimization.

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marie Quarrey: we can have Again, the example of Yannis financial consultants. He always puts tax logic into a broader context that has a long term goals and meanings, so he contributes to he he mark money. It means that it conveys a meaning to money that is not used

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marie Quarrey: for tax that has a port of a large wealth management strategy. So he has to encore the regional A, so that the morphology of tax optimization is directed towards property.

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marie Quarrey: Thank you.

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You have about 5 min left. Okay, yeah. About 5 min.

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marie Quarrey: Okay.

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marie Quarrey: to continue with this last suspect in Germany is, make a distinction within the project. They they they offer. Some intermediaries, offer a tax exemption for property, other do not. It's the example with association, but but also administrative assistance, administrative firms.

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marie Quarrey: But among the intermediaries offering tax exemptions, the rhetoric establishes different uses and meaning for tax exemption. Property

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marie Quarrey: for example, banks offer a penal property schemes. it's a government schemes implemented in 2,004

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marie Quarrey: a. And this scheme is very common, and enables taxpayers to buy a property rented out, and then benefits from from tax rebates, and until 2 persons of the Portuguese.

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marie Quarrey: In comparison, some financial consultants offer a more prestigious property investment schemes called monument to it

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marie Quarrey: with the minimum investment and a minimum amount of tax to be exempted.

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marie Quarrey: While proposing these schemes, they disqualified the that the the standards as schemes they they, they call it standards, schemes such as the webinar, or

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marie Quarrey: so they help to shape a social order of what could be good tax optimization schemes and what should be bad tax optimization schemes.

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marie Quarrey: so as a as type of property, investment is conspicuous consumption. It could be also a conspicuous tax exemption, and that situate both intermediaries and clients in the social space.

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marie Quarrey: So just to conclude, I just want to to underline that

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marie Quarrey: showing this, this social construction of acceptable tax optimization explain 3 main elements. The first one is that intermediaries work on the legal definition of of tax optimization.

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marie Quarrey: and by insisting on the legality, I'm recommending several a strategy from reading the the law to to doing, to doing the the look?

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marie Quarrey:  the the is that the strategy legitimize different tools for practicing tax optimization. And finally, this strategy also serve to distinguish between intermediaries, enabling them to position themselves in relation to each other. but also to structure the the market space for tax optimization in in the cross border context.

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marie Quarrey: So thank you for your attention.

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Thank you for that wonderful presentation that was wonderful, but it was very helpful. Thank you.

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And now we will conclude with our last paper, Professor Juan Deb. Loan and National development in 20 first century Argentina fiscal social control, a contract approach.

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So

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I up and down from the

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good morning chair and all the videos on online and the audience here. And today I'm going to talk about the physical policy, depth and national development. In the 20 first century, Argentina.

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the Physical Social Contract approach. I try to see, to, to have my research problem and to over Some middle range approach. To to this! Phenomenon! Well here!

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Oh, sh! I don't.

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I'm sorry I cannot.

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I my nest light.

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So

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this one

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The outline for my my presentation! And I was a start from a little background introduction. We're talking about the physical, social, of physical policies, especially in the context of Latin America. We will need to t respect to the debt crisis

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which is wept late in the entire Latin America in 82, and the majority of the country in the region were forced to implement neoliberal policy and the debt and structural reform. All the structural reform will need to comply with the conditional lending. And this had proved to have some of the problems like

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economic growth rate like you like to have a a cut of the social spending, and a profound is when the majority of let themering countries shift to neoliberalism. They also fac a a physical condition such as to low-level tax base. This couple with

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it grows their economic structure, which it pass under prime material exportation except Brazil and Mexico, for the majority of the country, and laying those layers as best, and a couple will let all use the prospect of a

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country or United States, and this majority of the country in the region are more easy to face. What we sell a trade, a better imbalance and a deficit occur, because

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when we talk about a procyclical physical policy, we mean that in the pool we try to expand the government spending, however, to cut revenue to cut the tax, so it easy to accumulate the public debt

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depth. And under this construction we, I would like to focus on Argentina because Argentina, over a very special case, we can can be trespassed to the depth crisis. In this case, this structural constraint. We are last over for the past twentieth century.

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So My research question Came from one phenomenon. Because we see that in In the past 20 years Argentina's national development actually is one So shifted from the left of an arrive. Right-wing Regime to the left wing region, and as personally, I consider this had many things to deal with. How the Government manage the debt!

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And however the government manager deb debt this also imply that the Government also. Lay lay over one of the physical arrangement, and therefore they this mean that there is a hidden social contract.

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Like So this is All a phenomenon that I feel very. I feel like to is broad. So my research question Try to understand how the left-wing to the right-wing government like manage the depth crisis, and how they offer one of the physical arrangements. These arrangements have an approval or disproval from

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from their citizens. So this is my best research question. So I will start with my literature review for the majority of the region they have been implemented Washington consensus and austerity in the Eightys.

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and many, however conditional lending have been very controversial, because they are saying that conditional lending will lower the economic growth rate, it will it decrease the investment, and even will decrease the social spending. And however many political scientists will argue that because conditional lending is still very important, because for majority

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of the country, they might have a very unstable political situation, or some of the Government will spend money preferred to invest in their political client, instead of to

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invest in some productive Purpose, therefore a criteria is very important for the multilateral. Bank! To to modify how they spend money! However, we can see that? According to some some literature, there are 70% of Imf program involved in austerity program. leg.

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which can be achieved by the increased revenue of reduced expenses, and this is subject to our internal political bargaining or social political bargaining process. This means that not all of the program I may have

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program will result in a cut of the social spending and of social spending have raised huge controversy, especially in Latin America. It also triggered a social movement, a social struggle against the government. So in a recent study, and we, it sure lets many sociologists

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also talk about our organization and talk about it. Bless any, if no, no, I I should finish this. So this moonl not all the in depthed country lay ultimately be to the social struggle or cup of social spending, because this has to do with the political regime.

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Apart from this, the second possible of my literature will focus on the physical Social Contract.

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This is the mainly from the contribution of a sociologist, and they are talking about it for the majority of who, we say, A country's social reaching or social revenue. This imply also the consensus of less citizens. So this should be not only decided by the government, but it. This is a social, a physical

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to come contract, and this will, and how the Government borrow the money and spending the money is also has to deal with the how children perceive this legitimate or not. So this is very important. We look at the context and the state and social relation so based on this. But some days we can also see that in

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twenty-first century many little American country have shifted to bottle money from the China bilateral lending, because enough impels of authority and conditional landing. So in Mega States, State is a decision more easy because they can just give the approval of their society.

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So My analytical framework will framed combining few important theory and the concept, one-front levy theory of Plato rule. And he'd theory talking about the State manager try to maximize the lattice and over a set of of option to increase, return, or decrease layer transaction cost

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and so I will use it. It comes like a buckling powerhouse. They control the revenue house, they exercise the assumption and the incentive in order to deal with the businessman and the social group, and also this also made us. They try to To increase their Discount rate and try to reduce the transition cost. Apart from this, I like to come by with

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theory. Because Brooklyn led, despite Taxation meal! Proof of business! And this might be a major. A major constraint for State's behavior. However, in a realization, for example, Argentina financial crisis and understand still a play, very crucial role in rebalancing a conflict between the capitalism and and the labors, and for final, there is.

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ere

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a country's vehicle, fiscal revenue. Is a political choice. This will require a collective come, things consensus. How a sideline perceive a paying tax is a obligation, or or is change exchange tax? This is subject to like stay, and and obviously social relation.

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So based on this, I scrutinize. I try to scrutinize the and the administration from 20 first 27, 2,050 under Under the Kitchener, underneath her Kitchener, Kitchener and Monthly Administration, and try to seek an interpretative understanding of if there is any differences between the left wing and right wing.

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I mean, okay? So I will skip to the fiscal contract. So I over, I thought, my research, you found that there exist 2 different Social Contract, one in neoliberal and one is the distribution. Distribution of contract was can be a trace back to a one balance region in a 14.

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This mean that which is best or a my ideology. Let try to prioritize the social justice of the nation of doctrine, and this social social justice, national doctrine. was was stimulated in the law of 40, 84 in the 40 s.

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And so When it when the kitcheners step into power like try to renew the neoliberal countries and try to try to Retain, to teach, return to Lapelonis's. social doctrine and or nation factory, and they ignore to pay for a national A dep holder, and try to

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try to decouple with the market. And apart from this, in terms of the physical policy and arrangement that try to impose male tax on the export, especially the progressive agro-business, because we know in the first decade of the 20 first century it happened to be the super cycle Tamada Dib Bond.

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So so it's a taxation more legitimate than before. And apart from this, Kitchener also imposed very heavy social security contribution, and the majority of a citizen consider, this is an obligation text, also a kind of who is that exchange text or a solidarity test? Because.

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let us, the social security contribution in we tend to have more subsidy from the government, and this subsidy not only include educational subsidy, but is tended to what we said, household subsidy and energy subsidy, and this will try to cultivate a cultural, known, or a political rightness

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of what we said and social justice in the national doctrine, and in terms of what To deal with, or how to manage the nation's crisis. So per. From this we can see they are the opposite side, a national counter, as from the market Mercury. And so let's shift a pendulum effect between the left to the right, and this implied to different kinds of national contracts.

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So my! My predecessor, never fighting. Shows that there are 2 different kind of typology they actually call and evolution along with the 20 first century. And we can see the previews was under legitimacy crisis because of the financial crisis hit Argentina in the 20 first until 22 and the last. They continue to reinforce

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about the crisis, and along with the twenty-first century, because they they like go back. They went back to Paloma's legacy and continue to cultivate of what continued this tree duty, the social justice? Social justice of the political writers, and a profound is, I also want to mention that distribution contract is very important, because because

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a compute to a neoliberal contract in the Liberal countries, Mega government need to increase their transaction costs, because in a marker's administration you need to deal with the Imf to deal with the authority and all the condition lending in Mexico government, and eg. And unable to ban 10 layers, arbitrary

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imbalance in the the social group. The interest, conflict, and more apart from this, is very easy to trigger the social discomfort. This constant, however, compared to this distribution of contracts

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do not need to deal with all the red tap, so it will reduce the transaction cost of government, and because the future is uncertain, neither the left wing or right wing can deal with this depth crisis and the depth constraint. So they prefer to focus more on the shortened transaction cost and always say the discount rate.

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and this so? That for my my, my conclusion is is very difficult for This reader of this to come! Trans. Can. a 5 can can over out my solution. So all the government and the citizenly preferred to seal a short term benefit, and this it reinforced a state to focus on their a transaction cost and discount rate.

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Yes, thank you.

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So thank you for the presentations. The excellent presentations. We've had a lot of content, a lot of ideas, a lot of issues. I'd like to ask Professor von to actually chair the discussion now. So if you would take over for me. Thank you.

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vion-a: Okay, thank you. So thank you. everybody for your very interesting presentations in the as I said when I introduced the the session. We we try and

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vion-a: take a look at the the links between professional practices, social practices, and also fiscal policies. And we at first

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vion-a: 2 presentations. Not for sorry. We had 2 presentations with with my and marijuana, which focused

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vion-a: very very

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vion-a: tightly on the on the professional practices at a local level, and does the very, the very sharp

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vion-a: segmentation of these professionalities. And this is quite interesting to to take a look at the the way tax optimization practices are not

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vion-a: something very very standard. I mean, there. There are a lot of segments, a lot of professional segments. So I think it's quite an interesting to to to compare this. And the way you you've done this was quite

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vion-a: interesting, I guess, and So

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vion-a: then I, I presented something which is much more at the transnational level. I mean a kind of global level, but which is also which also pays attention to the

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vion-a: to the practices due to the practices of, you know, making devices of tax optimization on tax evasion, and what I

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vion-a: particularly appreciated in the last presentation. is that, of course, what the the Argentine case shows us is something very important when, as soon as we try and link

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vion-a: macro and micro perspective

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vion-a: is that of, we could say that Argentina could be seen as a kind of prototype, you know, of the link between economic policies and what you call a social

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vion-a: this call contracts and structural conditions of of

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vion-a: attention of the game, margins by banks and and professionals, and so on. You know. So what is quite interesting is that 2.

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vion-a: What we see in the last case is that solvability is a structural condition of the attention of such

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vion-a: such easy ways to optimize taxis, and so on. Because what what the last period you you analyze shows is that what you call the distributional Social Contract is, of course, just constraints much more the professionals and constraints much more you know,

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vion-a: people in in the practices by, you know, avoiding out outs flows and outs investments, and so on. So thank you very much for all these presentations. I I would not like to be too long. Maybe we could. Just let people ask some questions if there are some questions I would have some, but

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vion-a: I would like to to be you know, open to to questions. First.

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vion-a: are there some questions in the room? I I cannot

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vion-a: see the audience. But are there some questions in the room, or

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vion-a:  Or should I ask some questions to people? So my, my, my question, I will start with a few questions. Okay? So so my first question, we will.

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vion-a: we'll go to to my Lisa. Don't be so my is what you presented is, you know the deal, those very

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vion-a: classical or traditional role of solicitors which is quite interesting because it's one of the most historically. you know, grounded in in terms of of property. And this is

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vion-a: what is quite interesting with the presentation of my, you know. So I would just

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vion-a: like to. To ask you how you you you can just, or if you would like to compare your case to Mary's one, because if she also

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vion-a: talked about, you know the the different property schemes proposed by, you know by by the the professionals in the cross border context. But is it the same, you know, in a, in a local context, or in a

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vion-a: Paris? In context, I I would like to to to, to.

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maybe to ask you about this.

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mailysgantois: Okay, thank you for your questions. well, what I wanted to show first? it was. Usually we are we about

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mailysgantois: in the man guys for employers. And we think about, you know, in a banksing, though I'm going to

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mailysgantois: something like an in the Graphic. I to show there is a lot of professionals who can help employers and shareholders and and just to open our eyes.

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mailysgantois: So If I do think about yours of presentations? I would say. I think, what is it between command and we have and my group perspective. And this is about the question of now, and how pointition make us have contribute to permits. kind of the tax

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mailysgantois: practicing.

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mailysgantois: Is it really the same strategies or practices as I, because it was also kind of minimum of singing as well. But I think that is really a question of what is the low? What it exists to call trains tax parties and like strategies

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mailysgantois: and how some which one can help.

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mailysgantois: That clients! I don't know if we can use this well, because it's a lot of meaning with a client. Well, that's where we can use this one right now, and how they can to respect or to be in the shadow of the though, and so I think

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mailysgantois: when even if my skate is at the of it, she she situates is her case between friends and and and my guess what? W. What

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mailysgantois: was more French teams, and our case. it's not something like a toast national case. But the is really a national case. But I think what is in commanding this system.

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mailysgantois: This is where it's a question of what is the low and on how individuals can use can make the low and also transform the low by

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mailysgantois: developing some practices in the shadow of what? What is in this period of zoom? I'm not sure I'm I. But I think, yeah, yeah.

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mailysgantois: it's it's it to do a link with the sociology of flow, which is normally, it's a shame, this but yeah, it's a it's what they have in mind. So it's not only economic practices or economic policies, but it also as political origin and yes.

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thank you. Thank you, Madison, and I would like to

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vion-a: to, just

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vion-a: you know. Go go go on with what you were saying and asking and to ask Mari because what you said in your presentation it was quite the same as what

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vion-a: maybe just said is that

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vion-a: all these professionals also make the lo and and what is quite interesting is the case you develop. So would you? Would you

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vion-a: like seeing a few

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vion-a: much more words on this, you know, on on specific case. you observe as these professionals.

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vion-a: you know, reshaping the the legal the legal. you know arrangements. It could be quite interesting if you have an example, for example.

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vion-a: if you don't mind.

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vion-a: Yes, do you want me to to develop a little bit more than maybe the yeah. The way these professionals just.

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vion-a: you know, reshape? The legal devices, or or contribute to, to, to change laws, or to change interpretations of the of the

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marie Quarrey: yes, to continue to this. Id that there is 2 way of of

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marie Quarrey: There is 2 perception of legal expertise making by making low and reading low. I didn't say it, but We can. We can see a more Micro Differences

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marie Quarrey: between, for example, association and assistance.

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marie Quarrey: assistance. administrative assistance firms because association work in very close linked between well, with the tax administration where we're as an administrative assistance firm. do not. So I think the the link between the tax administration is a very interesting elements to understand

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marie Quarrey: how intermediaries reshape the the tax optimization, how they perceive it, how they perceive the legality of their action, of their practice! and how they in the discourse, how they define a look

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marie Quarrey: as an example. I don't have the

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marie Quarrey: the the extract of the of the interview, but as an example, we can say that Karen, a director of administrative assistance firms. she said, that the the the link between a tax law is more a way to for her is more a way to

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marie Quarrey: How do you see that in English? It's it's

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vion-a:  Fris could do the Kuli Lalua from the it's it's a way to to to to, with legal devices, more than than a way to, to, to respect, the law, to, to.

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marie Quarrey: Yeah. Whereas at the Association, and especially one association, which is very close to the tax administration, because every year they are meetings with the between the association which is called the and the tax administration, in order to

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marie Quarrey: to share a good practices about tax return for yeah, for Nathan. A number of this association. her. His role is more

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marie Quarrey: an interpretation of the law. So it's not he's not dealing with the case, law or anything else he he his role, as he perceived. It's he's just to interpret low.

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marie Quarrey: so it just to underline the the difference. among a different among the the the Among one group of reading low, there is a little bit differences we can see at the micro analysis.

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vion-a:  thanks, thanks, thanks, Marie. Fine thanks. So my last question, maybe, would be to Cornia. thank you again for your presentation. It was very interesting, and and and also, I think the argent, in case, as you said, is, is a very

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vion-a: is a very instructive case, you know, in terms of school policies. So what you are

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vion-a: erez agmoni. Oh, you you! You developed the idea of of 2 regimes in, as you explain, in a new institutional perspective. So it was very interesting. My question is, is, what about 150?

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vion-a: you know the

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vion-a: The the the more recent changes from the you know what happened after? the certification of periods and the struggles? Because what is quite interesting is that that the the the fiscal distributional contract, as you you mentioned. we see that it's it's also it is also a kind of

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vion-a: a big restructuration in terms of a fiscal policy. And it's also, you know, entitled The The, The, The.

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vion-a: the Opportunity Structures and structures of opportunity to to to

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vion-a: get some tax exemptions. So what is quite interesting in the last period is that it seems that the more dominant actors manage to in in to push the this, this this administration out, and to to to to try and come back to a more neoliberal you know, fiscal social constraint. So I would like to know a little bit more about the struggles, you know, because it seems very very important. And

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vion-a: from Europe we don't understand this so much so I think it would be very interesting to hear you on this.

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Thank you for the question. frankly, I I I postpone my field work until next month. So my presentation is actually best, some of my data document analysis and some of the interview with my Argentine professors.

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And I. I also found myself very interested, because and now, because Argentina in the past 20 years, they actually shipped from 2 different kind of contract back to Marguerite and back to you, the the Korean President, and they have. They will have their first election

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in in this year, from August to the from August to October. I think it's very interesting, because I found that the majority of people, they not they. They are not disagree with locationism.

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because they consider the subsidy or household subset the educational subsidy, and also what we sell a social security quarter. This is important.

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and so on. Let's shift to monthly shift to right wing in the 2,015 Mugley were not able to cut off all of these Spencer's social Spenses, but they only reduce the tax like corporate tax, like income tax, but not being able to reduce all the subsidy.

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Now, many Argentina friends told me that they feel this time the right wing will win, and because they have a super impression, maybe

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now 105, maybe a 50. And however, that is very

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what we say. Control is a dilemma, because like in the right now, like what they offer cannot sustained. But they are. They don't have any confidence in the future in a future. This depth, constraint can be solved by any other over of the physical arrangement right now. So the majority, some of

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my my Argentine Professor. Friends, that that talking actually, they've seen this time. We will another pendulum. Well, shift back to right and try to negotiate with Imf. Try to see, the conditional landing can be solved. However, the majority of people have some of the bad memory from the past 20 years, so

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like for the left wing. We said a Kitchener. They start to blame for this, the Us. And for a multination

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linking system. So I didn't. But for now, for now I don't see any new proposal which came

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surpass this conflict, which can well, maybe maybe in middle of this 2 contract. But I don't think so. And however, I think it's very important, because let's say, they continue to accumulate their debt and inflation. And I need more money, more landing more long. And this long, if come from, I'm a F. I need to negotiate. And this might trigger another tension of a social movement.

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because many of the supporter of locationers. they actually oppose the neoliberal contract. And so late they try to talk to China because there's more easy borrowing money. No, no constraint. And so from now I I don't really know

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vion-a: erez agmoni, if I may just add a question, if you if you don't mind. I mean, I I was just one of you. You were mentioning some rise of Chinese investments in Argentina. So do you do. Chinese investors 250

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vion-a: have some you know, some special requirements in terms of fiscal policies or or tax arrangements.

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Yes, this this is a this is what I'm going to investigate. So for so so far, I know that they don't have the conditional linking like Imf, but they over another kind of quota, for example. The the the the the investment! Open the investment!

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Open some kind of area for China's investment.

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Apart from this, also the natural resource. Local Ted cortex cartel

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So I've been right now Chinese lending they have more impact on the Indonesia and on the national label, however, compared to imf layout, because you you cut the the salary of public servant cut the salary of a household subsidy. You will affect directly you will trigger more movement.

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but compared to China it seems less a long-term effect, not so short and effect

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so well.

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vion-a: thank you. Thank you very much. Are there some questions some of you would like to address to other people? I mean, we we still have a

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vion-a: 5 min, I guess to

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okay

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vion-a: or or is it? I mean, I I should say that in France it is very late, because it's 40'clock in the night, you know. So if if if you want to to

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vion-a: to stop right now, please tell. I mean we can stop now we and then we would like to to thank lots. Professor Mcnamara, to have chaired this session. Thank you very much. to just a moment. I just want to make sure that the people here in present in the audience have had a chance to address.

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vion-a: I didn't realize you didn't. So, because we don't have a view of the audience so sorry.

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And so could you describe where you're you're coming from

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for the speakers here.

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vion-a: is it? Just to introduce yourselves if you would.

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Yeah. Ok, so, and I come from telescopes and then post our researchers in the Institute of Sociology

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in the Institute of Sociology in Taiwan. Yes, at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. Yeah, academic Seneca, because of the complex history relationships. So yeah, wonderful. So one of your audience here is from the academic Seneca in Taiwan the sociology. Thank you. With the others. Introduce themselves, please. I'm a Ph. Student in the Nyu

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in sociology.

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New York University. Well, Nyu, oh, I'm sorry, he said. Another student is here in sociology, a graduate student from New York University. So that has been your audience. And we have a third person that doesn't want to introduce himself. Okay, no problem. Any questions that you have to the speakers.

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Yeah, I have one for Professor. Beyond that to use organized the data from the

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Pandemon papers. Right? So you're doing the process of how you organize those data as as you mentioned, and there is no time related, and there is no transaction. So how would you could you explain a little bit about how you organize those data into useful information?

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vion-a: Yes, thank you for that question. It is, of course, a very technical, methodological.

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vion-a: hard point. But

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vion-a: you know, the the data stored online is more synchronic that we would have it expected. So the problem is that

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vion-a: you have a lot of of you know, relations between officers

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vion-a: intermediaries like, for for example, people from banks. And you know our companies.

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vion-a: We chuck all the entities, you know in the database. And these, all these people are are also linked to addresses, you know. So

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vion-a: we we know when when exploring the data  very sharply. who is in relation to whom?

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vion-a: At the same time, of course. and to

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vion-a: which kind of address of local address. So this is

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vion-a: perfectly documented.

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vion-a: and we also know if the if, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the tax evasion of of the tax organization device is still running, or is or has been just stopped or dissolved, and so on. So we have the idea of a kind of turnover, you know, but we are not able to

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vion-a: date this as sharply as as an historian would would like to do it, you know. So this is the limit of the of the data.

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vion-a: But when we take a look at the you know, the the relational chains between between these people, these addresses, and so on. So

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vion-a: we have a kind of perfect vision of the of the, you know, and we can just compare this, and we have compared a lot of our secrets.

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vion-a: And what is really striking, for example, if I have, I have not developed this. But what is tracking is is the difference, for example.

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vion-a: between the European European you know.

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vion-a: meetings which are much based on on you know, intimidation by banks.

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vion-a: and the once

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vion-a: made in in China, for example, or or in Hong Kong. which are much more.

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vion-a: you know, based on on arrangements with a lot of intermediaries and with people, you know. apparently have a family links within Jasper us. And in this me, this makes

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vion-a: much more complex structures, relational change and and and structures to to retrieve. So

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vion-a: that's

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vion-a: of course there are a lot of limits in the kind of study we did, and we are very cautious of this. mighty could say a few words on these, because she she also participated to this. But there are a lot of limits, but also what is quite instructive is the the way that you know addresses and and and relation between people just

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vion-a: allow us to trace

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vion-a: financial secrets and to know a little bit about the activities, because when we see you know this the special companies like umbrella companies of wrong companies, it's very easy to to know what kind of activity they they have.

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vion-a: I hope I've been clear enough.

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Ok, thank you very much, and thank you for the question. are there any other questions that we have here?

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No.

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thank you. We still have just a few minutes here. And so, Maria, if I could just ask you one question here quickly.

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Marie, the question would be you! Quoted Bordeaux. Pierre Bidu, in regarding sort of playing with borders, playing with the contours of the norm

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which I found very fascinating, and in my own work with dealing with business generally. That's the way you do business. You play with the norm.

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and that's what we call entrepreneurship. Schumacher talked about it in a little different way, but I think he had the same notion when he was talking on the business side, not the State side.

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But isn't it, Marie? In terms of playing with the norm? Isn't there differences in the way that we can that people are able to play with the norm. Some people have a status such that we believe them, and we trust them, and they're more legitimate when they play with the norm.

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Others seem to be exploiting the norm. We don't trust them.

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in your work. Are you finding any differences there in terms of social distinction. I mean just continuing some of the work of we do. Are some people more qualified for playing with the norm by certain authorities and others less qualified.

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marie Quarrey: Yes, thank you so much for your question. It's a very interesting question. yes, concerning your playing with the norm. I think there is a lot of different way to trust I think. on my survey. I've seen mostly 2 way to trust

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marie Quarrey: and the distinction between between intermediaries. about that. The first one is The way that association, because of the the the link between the with the the tax administration. They have a special expertise.

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marie Quarrey: which which is called I don't know. How do you can

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mailysgantois: translate sets in English. But it's, I think.

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mailysgantois: Okay, thank you.

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marie Quarrey: and a different a different way to trust his the way that's financial consultants use the case law, and force the authorities to transform and to to implement K, the law.

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marie Quarrey: Where was the the association Talk with the tax administration to implement case. So it's a different way to to trust. And

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marie Quarrey: I don't know. if there is a very big dis this the distinction from the point of view of the taxpayers, because I need to to interview more taxpayers on this and this this distinction. But I think there is a little bit difference in in terms of inequalities.

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marie Quarrey: because we can see that Some taxpayers have access to financial consultants with the high cost entry costs

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marie Quarrey: and some taxpayer doesn't don't have access to financial consistent, but have access to association, because, it's it's less expensive.

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marie Quarrey: So I think it's a difference a big difference from the point of view of of taxpayers.

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marie Quarrey: and

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marie Quarrey: I'm sorry it's a

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that's all.

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I believe we're running out of time here, Professor Vion, you want to bring us to a conclusion here with some words of

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vion-a: maybe I think we we we, as you say, we may well out of time. But I what if I just may comment your your last question and your last comment, I mean what was quite interesting in in the

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vion-a: the difference between also the way people. You would just address this question and the way you were addressing it is, I mean is, could be also

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vion-a: so in terms of the the quite long persistence of legal systems we know in the European context. We are, you know, anchored in, still anchored in in very highly codified Napoleonica legal systems, you know, and and this is very different from common law, in fact. So I I think, even though a globalization, I've I A

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vion-a: also mixed, you know these systems. What is really interesting when we

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vion-a: compare the the North American situation and the European institution is the persistence of these systems also in the sociological perspective, you know, which is quite interesting, because because these legal systems also have.

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vion-a: you know, big incidences. And on the way we

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vion-a: we just elaborate on these, you know. So I think it's it's quite interesting to to have this in mind. So I would say just a few last words just to say that we would like to to structure in the next

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vion-a: few years, maybe a small networks on the on this question of of links between

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vion-a: fiscal practices and fiscal policies. So if people are interested, we are, we are going, maybe to to make some proposition to to the research committee. And also, we we would like really to to thank you again Professor Mcnamara for sharing this session, because I know that this was

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vion-a: quite uncomfortable because you had no news from us. So I'm really sorry about that. And I should say that's the the European. The French context right now is is very tense, you know. I mean, politically speaking, so so this is why it has been a bit puzzled and also possible programs, and so on. So thank you very much for welcoming us the with such a you know. a a smart matter. Thank you very much.

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Thank you, and thank you for all the participants and for those who joined us here today. I'm just delighted. We're able to do this electronically. So thank you very much. And thank you very much.

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Thank you.