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So I think we are ready in the room to start. It just so you know as you probably already realized our hosts are online.

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I'm here just to support the technical issues. Which I'm not doing very great at. So welcome to our recession session and before I will pass the flur to our organizers.

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Just let me on behalf of all of us gathered. Acknowledge and pay my respect to the traditional owners of the land of Narn on which we are meeting today.

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Their cultural knowledge, customs and loss. I would like to acknowledge the importance of contribution of the First Nations thinkers on the discipline of sociology and for challenging our dominant ways of thinking and as a Europe based scholar I am very grateful for the possibility to learn more about this country's history to learn more about this country's history.

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Thank you so much and I passed the floor.

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Yeah, thank you Mongosa. Okay, I will make a brief introduction of the session. Good afternoon.

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Good morning to everyone, especially to do the week in the very early morning like Mariana. We begin now the second part of the session quantification and power, various normative agendas and policy politics.

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Behind numbers. Today's session is for some reason listed as the first one. In the conference program but is actually the second.

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We already had a very interesting session on Monday where we discussed about the ways of quantifying in the medical field but also we discover very interesting things about how this ability is framed in by algorithms in policies.

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And the effects of their use. We focused on the notion of health finance and its meaning. And when Charlie we discuss about numbers and climate footprint in academia.

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So we would like to thank you the person that presented on Monday for the beautiful session and we now start the next one because there is more to say about quantification and power and knowledge.

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Let me just shirt into this as the photos who were not with us on Monday. My name is I am a Nazi state professor at the University of Milan Mkoka and my colleague here is Maria Nazarezka and she's currently based in Edinburgh at the University of Edinburgh, but she works as

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an assistant professor at the University of Boston. We decided to organize that this session that relates to what we are working on as we both apply the sociology of quantification and SDS.

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Perspectives. To the studies of quantification and indicators and algorithms. I have conducted a research on the Italian profiling system.

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In the labor market policies and I'm currently working on the logics of sustainable development, all these indicators and on quantification in preparedness logics in local health system and Mariana has studied the algorithm of her profiling the unemployed people in Poland and now she's researching the political games around the EU poverty indicators as

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we will very well know from their presentation. We are sorry for not being able to join you in person, but we are very happy to be here.

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On Friday and today we have 4 very very interesting presentation. We would like to remind you that you will have a round 1012 min for the presentation and then we will have a more or less the other 10 min for questions and today we have a bit of time for general discussion at the end of the session.

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So, we hope that we will have the chance to have some dialogue across different, topics and across the presentations.

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At the end of your presentations. So I'm now leaving the floor to You, did I pronounce it correctly?

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I have no idea. Sorry.

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Yes, it's Handsong, but it's okay. I know it's hard to pronounce.

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Okay, thank you. So the Do you manage to share your screen? And your presentation.

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Yeah.

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Can you see the screen?

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Okay.

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Yeah, yeah, we can see it perfectly. Thank you.

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Oh.

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It's your flow.

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I already said it, but I want to thank a king for organizing this session.

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It's a great honor for me to present my business to you. It's kind of nervous because it's the first time in my whole life.

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To make a presentation. I hope that I will not make any. Hearing this presentation. Hmm.

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And, of course we don't. Yes.

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Don't worry. No, I would say don't worry. Mixtakes are really accepted here.

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It's really. I think I don't have abstract theories and maybe some of you can see that if some of you can see it, the subject of this essay is quantification at similar capital in sociological field and in this essay I will illustrate how methods of quantification end up being constructed

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as simply capital and how quantitative approaches have become the most preferred form of social research. Originally, I wanted to focus on a very specific example.

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The symbolic struggle of qualitative researchers compared to that of ethnomathologists in the field of anthropology.

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However, as I work more on this paper, I found that it would be more beneficial to regard it as one of many examples showing the trend of quantification rather than focus on one single case.

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What was a small portion of the essay changed during further research the most important parts of the Extra to be in tech because the essential idea remains the same.

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I don't know why can I Wait a second.

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That's fine.

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I don't know why but if I make it Oh, bit better. I don't know why, but I can't wait.

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Okay.

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Wait a second.

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Have you shared the screen or have you shared just a presentation? Hi, the whole screen or the person.

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Because if you share the whole screen, it should be working.

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Okay.

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Try again.

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Okay.

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So maybe don't put it full screen and Have it. Just the We had to wait.

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Oh, okay.

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Okay, leave it like this and try to Okay.

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Okay.

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So, you get Let me make a brief introduction to quantification. So I'm not given enough time and capacity to illustrate all of it in this presentation.

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I will focus on 2 essential elements. One is the operational definition and the other is the statistical correlation.

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Or consider the most People told once they are the most facing method of quantitative research. Yet there is one more reason we should put more emphasis on them.

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Each of them is based on assumptions of the most primitive form of logical and criticism which suppose that reality exists and not only that exist but it it is also a approachable and available for representation.

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To my surprise, the reality is not the physical reality, whether it is a social one which could only be available to us by theoretical statements.

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So the question arises if what's different Turner and who inspired him like Hempill.

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It was Different Turner and who inspired him like Hempill, Popper, Coombes suggested were true and what that's why we should all agree on them.

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Why Martin lets us build the method could be established as comes though in the sociological field. Is it due to a lack of theoretical background?

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A philosophy and sociology of science as Turner indicated so how and what makes sociologists in general lost interest in the philosophy of science.

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What was what has changed in sociological knowledge and discipline after the rise of Merton and Letters.

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So these as you can see from the slide are my major research question. I'm sorry. As I suggested in my abstract, I will rely on theoretical framework of Burdue to find out the answers.

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Now I will illustrate the benefits of using Buddhism approach. That will do it roughly since many researchers, including Burdue himself, have already shown them so well.

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Still there are some that we can agree on and I think it can be narrowed down to this. First as sociological theory by using field theory we can transcend the technique of objectivism and subjectivism.

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Through this we can avoid the danger of falling into fundamentalism and internationalism as you can consider the impact of social structure on individuals and individuals and the individuals effort and strategies to regenerate the structure in accordance with social structure on individuals and the individuals effort and strategies to regenerate the structure in accordance with their interests at the same

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time. Finally, as a sociology of knowledge, field theory has more advantages than paradigm theory.

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And made a great contribution by sociologising the science community. Yes, he failed to explain why in certain errors normal science fell apart and in some didn't.

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And in which stage of the process of normal science could lead to a scientific revolution. Also, he didn't account for how the scientific community interacts with other parts of the society and how to topology of the scientific community forms.

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And this led me to use for design approach to find the answers to my research questions.

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So I will explain the terminology of review the most important of the field and habitus. The field is a battlefield for components to fight for their state.

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And it is what is called capital. A field as a symbolic space has borderline and entry posts and it has a rule of game called Num.

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Inhabitants is a state of an embodiment of normals and is also regarded as a in embodied form of cultural capital.

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Have it is a sense that component hacker game. It helped them make a strategy to win more capital in the field.

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And struggle between the components of the field is structurally homogeneous to that between the fields. And to gain more capital.

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It is important for components to know not only enormous and topology of their own field, but also the hierarchical order of fields and enormous of the most powerful field.

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Captain, what kind of capital can one accumulate and struggle for? Do we have many? I'll show only a few which are the most essential of the framework.

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One year capital cultural capital and and social capital. Oh, I'm sorry. Just one. This one would be social capital, but I made a mistake.

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And Munter Capital is capital that has a form of currency and is measurable in terms of its size, while cultural capital being a concealed yet more enduring form of monetary capital is a lot more complicated by some cultural capital for example which is in its objective by form could attain by Munter capital

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cultural capital in most cases cannot be attained without a transgenerational strategy until by class habitus and decades long time of investment.

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And social capital is a by product of a certain amount of monetary and cultural capital considering this then how can one distinguish the scientific field from other fields?

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Or do you soap this with the related autonomy of the field? So as you can see here.

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According to Burdue, the scientific field has the greatest autonomy while the religious field has the least.

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It means that the normal of the scientific field is more powerful than any other field in the simply capital of the scientific field which is referred to as scientific capital cannot be accumulated by mere exchange of monetary or cultural capital.

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However, even when the most autonomous field is not

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Free from the impact of capital in other fields. The most powerful one could be Class happy to speak influences how individuals make decisions on one's education and career and of course it both it is also the case in science.

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Auto project is almost flawless. It's almost faultless. It's still needed to be working on 2 aspects.

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First there's not much empirical research to support the field theory. First, there's not much empirical research to support the field theory, so we can name some research to support the field theory, so we can name some researchers like those of Ridwick and Keene, to support the field theory.

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Though we can name some researchers like those of Ridwick and Keene as King mentioned, still more profound connection is needed. And Kim, as Kim mentioned, still more profound connection is needed since later than relied on terminology of review.

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Also, produce seems, still more profound connection is needed since later, more profound connection is needed since later than relied on terminology of review.

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Also, produce seems to have little or no interest in distinguishing and it makes it difficult to apply the field theory other than the scientific field.

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I mean in the nearest sense the field of natural science. Therefore, I will do empirical research to support and supplement the field theory by illustrating how MERRISTIN was this building method of sociology became a state of the art.

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Although I. Still got more to work on and the following slides are quickly made. I will try my best to explain the main point on my research.

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As Turner indicated, Merton was considered the advocate rather than a contributor to the lettuce building project, then how did Merton become more well known as the classic writer of methodology, sociologist and sociologist of science at the same time.

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How could he justify himself as someone not only greater than let us build and someone as great as classic sociologists like Durkhan and Weber.

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While looking up his research, I discovered something very interesting. So Merton is one of the great help to articulate a methodology without epistemology.

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He benefited the most and much more than his contemporaries due due to intellectual tradition which favors historical theory more than measurements and experiments.

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When the idea of meter range theory was first introduced, there are meaningful number of critics who claim the idea was obsolete.

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Most of them felt since they didn't have a good enough theoretical weapon to fight Merton.

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In short, Merton could gain the most symbolic title of the sociological field and uses capital to change normal the rules of the game.

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Still, Laddell's belt was important not because he provided the main outline of the method but because he helped Merton to gain symbolic capital with administrative resources.

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It is his research project that provided the foundation of BA states are and this helped him be elected as a fellow of ASA, which is now one of the most powerful sociological institutions worldwide.

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Yep. Okay.

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You and you have ended up your time. I'm sorry if you can, summarize the result of your.

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I'm so sorry, I can summarize it now as you can see.

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Don't worry. It's just for having time for a brief discussion.

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Okay.

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Oh, should I stop sharing the screen?

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No, no, no, but, conclude, you can conclude that.

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No, you can't.

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Okay, I'm sorry. So. Oh, I think I opened the wrong slide, but anyway.

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Wait a second, please. This one is not good. And

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I don't know why but I Oh.

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So the conclusion is this let us build resources off similar capital in the statistics field could be finally exercised after Merton's symbolic labor and struggle for justification by offering a new pigeon for offence to be sociology.

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Written could employ his theoretical resources to defeat tradition of celery before mid-century. Conservation strategy of Coleman and Koser resemble that of Lettersfield and Merton and subversion strategy of quasar, Strauss and Charmas made little success in terms of the field

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revolution.

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Thank you very much. You.

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I would like to know if there is anyone in the floor that wants to raise questions.

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Okay, thank you, Musha. I want to raise the just one because I think we don't have a lot of time.

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Did you find anything different in the I would say it's no methodological or qualitative perspective.

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From the mathematician and the quantification one. Or it is just, a different form, a different field.

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But with the same logics and with the same perspective and so on And, do you think this, creative perspective is immune from the risk of quantification or it is just the same.

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I'm sorry, but I didn't get the question. Or can you just repeat that once again?

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Okay, I wanted to know if you find something different. In qualitative or at no methodological perspective from this point of view.

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From the point of view of the standardization of the way of, make a distinction in the sociological field or if, it's exactly the same, from, from the perspective of the mathematician and quantification.

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I don't think the perspectives. Are exactly the same, but I still think there is a connection or Continuity between those 2.

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So I really want to show continuity, but I'm not sure if I.

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Good. Can I have a question or we don't have time? Yeah, because I was wondering.

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If you actually can analyze. The autonomy of the field. From the international perspective, let's say, because What's like, what I'm like used to in terms of like the field analysis.

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Or more analysis that are sort of situated at the national level. And if you can analyze actually field from the international perspective.

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The scientific field, what would be the difference in analyzing those fields from the international and from the national perspective.

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Mmm, originally I plan to do it in international level, but as I doing some more researches I found it in possible or nearly impossible to analyze.

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On the international level. So I think it would be just a national level of analyzing the sociological field in maybe US because, I don't know if I can say this, but, sociological field of Korea is very strongly influence to.

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By that of US. So I think that the reason why am I doing this?

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Okay, thank you very much. Thank you very much for this presentation. I think we can.

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Okay. So, Walter, do you have question?

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So Yeah. This is on here. Well, I have rather an observation I think. I found this really interesting what you presented and you said that well it was not properly worked out how sociology actually, well, it was not properly worked out how sociology actually relates with other parts of society.

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Now, I think when you try to reconstruct the quantification of sociology, and the success of this quantification you would have to take into account other parts of society.

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We have clients. One of the important most important clients of sociology is the state.

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There's really huge amounts of literature on that. So I think I would take that into account. And also well if you say that the Korean sociology is very much influenced by international developments, well this actually speaks to an international or transnational perspective I would say.

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And third observation, if you want to stop with Koser and Coleman. It might be not the entire story, although they are definitely important.

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No question, right? But if you look at contemporary developments Today we have sort of a cultural war also in in sociology.

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So it is not. Entirely determined that this quantification is the dominant force. There are very strong struggles going on within sociology.

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In Germany for example there was a the National Association has been split up. Because the quantified research, the quantifying researchers didn't feel well represented within the National Association.

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So, yeah. These are my observations. Thank you. But it's really an interesting thing you're working on.

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Thank you, Walter. If there is. Anyone else? Otherwise we can switch to the next presentation.

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That is, from Mariana Zelenska, Magdalena Binker and Magusha Groundska, taming the strange animal, how the European Parliament and the European Commission representatives.

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Use the arrow composite poverty index in the power games.

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Also, I have a question. Could you mute one of the computers because I think the The one is not muted.

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Thanks.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah, we are hearing a lot of noise, but I didn't think it was just me or.

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Plus. Thank you. Yeah. So, because

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Okay, much better.

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Yeah.

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No, still noisy.

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Okay. So thank you. Yes, but the noises are not from the other computer because the mic is not even on there.

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Okay.

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So that's probably from one of the mics on in the room. And that's beyond my power, I'm afraid.

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Yeah, yeah, sorry. Thank you, Mongolia.

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Maxwell. And is it better now? Oh OK, perfect. So we solved the problem.

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I think so. I think so. Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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Thank you. Thank you so much for that technical intervention. So thank you so much and I am very happy to be able to present.

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The research we did with Mariana on how the European Parliament and the European Commission used the AROP Composite Poverty Index in the Power Games.

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My name is Mogg Rotagavanska and I am a PhD student at the Faculty of Sociology of the University of Warsaw.

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Just to give you a little broader look at the research we're doing, what I am presenting today is part of a broader research, the making of the EU Antipoverty Policy for the at-risk of poverty composite indicator ROP and we combined qualitative and quantitative methods within this research.

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Any thanks, Oliver? Okay, now we have audio from the other.

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Hi. The second

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This is very funny. Or not at all.

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Yeah. I know. Okay, so we based the analysis on 31 in-depth interviews with representatives of key EU level institutions.

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We did it so far. I hopefully we'll have more and content analysis of the documents including parliamentary questions and this is what I will be focusing on today.

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The main objective of our analysis is to understand the role that the ARP composite indicator set in the dialogues between Tokyo institutions, the European Commission and European Parliament.

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And what is very important is that ARROPI is an indicator that was set to measure member states progress in terms of reduction poverty reduction targets in the European Union.

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So this is a indicator that was set for very specific political purpose. And for those of you who are not familiar with this indicator, I would like to very briefly introduce Arropy to you.

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This is a I said a composite indicator and it consists free elements. The at risk of poverty rate which measure the monetary poverty which is set at 60% of the national media and equivolized disposable income after social transfers?

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No, I don't hear anything so far so. Now I think it's good.

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Thank you. And the severe material and social deprivation rate, which captures individuals who are lacking at least 7 items out of the list of 13 material and social deprivation items.

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And the low work intensity rate which captures individuals living in households that are quasi jobless, namely those in which adults worked at working time equal or less 20% of their total combined worktime potential during the previous year.

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So in the title of the presentation we referred to ROP as the strange animal and this is the term that we borrowed from one of our respondent.

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Respondents and you may ask why it is a strange animal. So this is a very complicated indicator.

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As I said, it is a composite one, so it is quite difficult to present present to the to the public but it is also controversial indicators and there are certain methodological questions about it to which I will not be going into details but it is important to to remember that.

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Aropy is also highly political in terms of its purpose. As I said, but also it was politically agreed after a long process of heated negotiations.

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The social policy is the domain of member states of the European Union, so all member states had to agree for this certain shape of the indicator.

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And yeah, and so after those heated negotiations. Once the member states met the consensus about the indicator, it became its very strength that it is a consensual, consensual one.

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But this also made our Opi the Pandora box as one of our correspondents said, meaning that no one wants to really come back to the discussions about this indicator after those heated negotiations.

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No one anymore questions it and there is no willingness to change it. So as you can see here is the I give credits to the outer of the term that it's a strange animal.

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One of our respondents said the big value added of our Opi was that it was adopted. It was voted and accepted by all member states.

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So there is general anonymity among 27 member states to retain the ROP. Clearly I mean in the academia you have many studies that document the limitation of ouropi.

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They are those that I told you. I mean it's a strange animal because it has different components that tell different stories that overlap yes or no depending on the economic level development of the country.

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They may and also the way it is built, it may be tricky because it doesn't matter the degree of severity of poverty.

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Sorry, I got lost in my in my notes. So we look at the ROP as well as other poverty indicators.

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So we look at DROP as well as other poverty indicators in the EU as a tool for governing by numbers.

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So we look at DROP as well as other poverty indicators in the EU as a tool for governing by numbers.

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So, as other poverty indicators in the EU as a tool for governing by numbers. So we focus on how ROP and the indicators in the EU as a tool for governing by numbers.

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So we focus on how ROP and the indicators construct policy field and how they mediate their relations between actors.

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And we look at the discursive dimension of of this phenomena phenomenon and how RP frames the debates between European Parliament and European Commission and how it is used for the legitimization on uses to strengthen the epistemic authority of actors who actually went through the data, the quantifiable data to legitimate size claims from

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the scientific authority of the of the indicator and we believe it all happens through the mechanical objectivity that makes us believe that indicators and statistical procedures are very de-polyicide, very impersonal, very objective data.

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And as you already know, Arabic not exactly might always be like that. What is important to stress is that the relationship between European Parliament and the European Commission is a quasi parliament government one.

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Well parliament is less politicized, the more consensus based has no legislative initiative, it also has very important political role and control role over European Commission and a European Commission on the other hand is more expert body.

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And its prerogative is the implementation monitoring of policies. It has limited prerogative in many policy areas.

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Parliamentary questions are very important source of knowledge for us because they reveal political cleavages. Within the member states, the national ones between the government and the opposition, the left-right cleavages, member states European Union institutions.

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And we believe that the questions are the tool that is used by the members of the parliament to execute the control function of the European Commission, it is their way to influence legal initiatives.

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The European Commission. Make space for suggesting amendments to legal acts, space for political voice for their outer presentation and communicating positions and transfer national government opposition games into the EU level.

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So try to control the government through the European Commission. What we actually did is we searched for parliamentary database which resulted in over 11,000.

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I think I lost one slide. Over 11,000 results. We used a text for that. And the time period was 2,009 2,022 we collected almost 700 quid for further analysis that met our inclusion criterias.

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And we analyzed 20 Sorry, 251 questions that you used are OP composite index.

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This is what I will be focusing on now. Important limitation is that we captured only those dialogues in which Parliament used DROP and not those in which parliament asked a question to commission and commission responded with the usage of our IP.

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So this is important limitation of the methodology.

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And in literature there is well written, there are well-written functions of of questions. Parliamentary questions that they are aimed to control to they also post. Sorry.

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They also have informative function agenda setting and political purpose. And as you can see on the title of one of the questions that is my personal favorite, parliament members use the ROP indicator not only to legitimize the claims but also to let's say shot fires at the commission sometimes.

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Okay, so within the control function of the, because we found in our research that those functions of the parliamentary questions, because we found in our research that those functions of the parliamentary questions that are well written in the parliamentary questions that are well written in literature we also found them in our data.

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So in terms of the control function of the parliament, we also found them in our data. So in terms of the control function of the parliamentary questions, we observed that, control function of the parliamentary questions, we observed that atopi was used for a counting commission for its actions or decisions, we observed that ARPI was used for a counting commission for its actions or decisions.

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We observed that ARPA was used for a counting commission for its actions or decisions. And you can see on the example that the member of parliament provides first numerical data on poverty and social and then expect commission to explain what actions is taking in that matter.

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Within the informative function, parliament members turn to commission as an expert body to gain some data informed knowledge that they could use for their political goals.

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And sometimes they used questions also to gain some data about their own member state or government actions to which they do not have access.

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So as you can see in this example. The Member of Parliament asks Commission of a ranking list of member states and figures regarding the progress that was made.

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Very important and interesting function is the agenda setting in which we observe that parliaments use the ERP to draw attention to important issues.

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And in this case you can see how ROP is used to bring attention to the problem of the food waste, which was very surprising to me because I felt like those are quite distant topics.

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And but also also that And finally, the political function in which ARPA was used to force some political goals.

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But also for the outer presentation of the members of the parliament as this is the space for them to present themselves.

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And in this case, in this example, you can see. How would a member of the parliament from Greece is using ROP in quite, I would say, emotional way and is using ROP in a quite, I would say, emotional way and is positioning himself or herself as those who are fighting for justice for great people and is positioning himself or herself as those who are fighting for justice for Greek people and points at

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the Commission is positioning the himself or herself as those who are fighting for justice for herself as those who are fighting for justice for herself as those who are fighting for justice for herself as those who are fighting for justice for those who are fighting for justice for the Greek people and points at the Commission as the guilty one for the difficult situation in Greece after the financial

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crisis. So our opioid was used mostly as a tool to provide quantifiable evidence, strengthen the argumentation and give authority and credibility to the speakers.

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We observed that within those functions and with within those categories we observed that it was used for member states comparisons in terms of the winners and losers of achieving the targets, but also in terms of framing member states as the old and new European Union member states, those in which poverty is a more pressing issue or is taken more seriously by the

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government. And to assess member states, even their own member state. And the in terms of measuring progress or engagement in achieving the goals.

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Or for argumentation for some national goals as we saw in the last example. It was also used for political argumentation, for example for advocating for a certain vulnerable group or pushing some political goals.

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For measuring commission's actions, efficiency and assessing priorities by the Commission as we saw in the example with the cricket.

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Obtaining data and information also in terms of the national government actions. So it was also used as a civilians tool.

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And finally, to conclude, we observed that Aropy was quite a black box. The political dimension was absolutely not visible in the data we collected.

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It was treated as very neutral and technical tool very, some methodological questions were raised only at the very beginning of the implementation of the U.

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2,020 strategy which set the target for which ARPA was developed. It revealed power relations in the dialogue between European Parliament and European Commission.

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We observed that ROP was used as a missile by the European Parliament members in the power game with the Commission.

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And at the same time the commission used it as let's say a shield so it was the element of the expert knowledge and policy initiative they could use it to say we are aware of this problem we know the figures.

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So Also comparing the usage of the ROP by European Parliament and European Commission We observed that parliament members used ROP in more, let's say, offensive and rhetorical way they used more emotional language and commission for commission it was more defensive but not also maybe the, because of the relationship of this.

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And they use more technical and expert language. Thank you so much for your attention. I'm so sorry I was quite a bit stressed with my double role here today.

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Thank you.

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Thank you. Thank you very much. Is there any?

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Question from the room.

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Yes, we have one.

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Look, I'm

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We can't hear it.

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Yes, yes. Thank you very much.

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Yeah, the microphone was off. Can you hear me now? Yep, okay. Yeah, hi.

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So I'm Rob Akland from the Australian National University. My question was, does your work?

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Academic work similar to yours in the sense of looking at indicators and they're how they're being used in a sort of using content analysis like that because you've focused on the EU context and the aropy index but I'm wondering about, for example, international indexes like the, you know, the $1

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a day poverty index or the human development index. Did that lead to, was there similar research about kind of how these indexes were being discussed?

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And yeah, so I'm just interested in whether there's other other literature that you're engaging with in this regard.

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Yeah, yeah, maybe I I'm gonna take the question.

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Thank you so much for that question. Maria, do you want to support me with this? Marianna is the supervisor of the project, so that's why I'm asking her.

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Just, yes and no. There is some literature. Definitely, there is like more literature focused on quantification and indicators at the international level.

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Let's say then at the EU level. The dialog between the EU studies and the international studies.

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Like it goes more parallel than Like, there's not so much dialogue, but more of a parallel studies.

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Although there are some more anthropological studies that, Focused on quantification in the EU.

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And in terms of this discursive role of indicators, there is for example a very interesting study of the SDGs.

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It was a project, led by, Soteria Greg and they recently published a book on Poverty and education.

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And the SDGs and. There is a part where they discuss the discursive level not only focusing on the indicators but more broadly also on generally on how the SDGs are presented.

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But they are using, the, They are looking at how it's framed.

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So they are more using, like framing approach to it. And we also recently wrote an article, that focuses on the aropy and the academic discourse.

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We're using the, critical discuss analysis there, but it's not published yet.

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Okay.

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So that's what I can mention. There are some studies, but I don't know many studies that would focus on the indicators themselves.

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Thanks. Just a quick clarification because I've got experience in poverty analysis but it's actually quite a long time ago but you said SDG is that I was thinking what's what's that stamp?

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Because I know about the millennium development goals.

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Sustainable development goals. Yep.

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No, that's okay. Yeah, I've got it. Thank you. Thanks.

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Sorry, yeah, it's the, Yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah.

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Thank you so much. Yes, please.

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Okay, is there another question? Okay.

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Yeah, thank you. This is really very interesting. It's a fascinating indicator. I didn't know about it.

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And After listening to you, I thought, well, What could have been another result? Right. Like is there because you described what they do and because of the roles, What does the European Parliament?

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Attacks the European Commission defends itself. And they both use the indicator but what else could have you found out because you used a ropey as a search term.

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Right? So. What I actually found interesting is what you said at the beginning that this is a controversial indicator.

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It is a composite indicator that is hard to understand. So if you look at what indicator designers actually recommend like Atkinson for example who consulted the the European Commission.

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He would say, well, use a simple indicator that can be understood by policymakers. And I mean.

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Of course, Aropy has not invented poverty measurement. So there have been other indicators around before.

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So what I think would be interesting in this respect is Does this indicate a crowd out the former indicators?

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So this is I think you know having a comparison with I don't know something Some other poverty measurement I think would be really really revealing.

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Thank you. Thank you so much for that question. Just for clarification, we also used other attacks.

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So we also use detect poverty. We also used the tag indicator indicators and also the names of the documents that relate to the European Union's goals in terms of poverty reduction.

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And you are very right that there are other indicators as well and we found them in our research and we were also in the discussion between European Parliament and European Commission on social indicators on social indicators on more general level and European Commission on social indicators on more general level, we had very few questions on social indicators on more general level, we had very few

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questions on more general level. We had very few questions that addressed this more general level, we had very few questions that addressed this more general level and other indicators did in it showed up in those questions.

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As I said, we focused for this presentation mostly on the on the those that use ROP, but I think that actually ROP became the most hegemonic one.

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And I think Mariana could elaborate also more about other indicators that are within social scoreboard and And there, there, relationship with the ROP and how we Therapy have framed in this indicators landmark.

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Okay.

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Well, definitely depends where you look because. Parliamentary questions are. Quite specific.

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And that's true that, I, is a dominant one, from what we can see.

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What's also problematic is that the previous indicator that was dominant, the relative poverty indicator is a part of the No.

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So. It's not that obvious that they are totally separate indicators. That's one thing.

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The other is that different You bodies use also different indicators in their games. So what's quite interesting in this case is that you have around 500 indicators that are somehow related to poverty, the social, let's say the social.

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Policy indicators. Around 500 or 800 depending on how you count because you can count different breakdowns or not.

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And actually, no one has control over this abundance right now. And what happens is that Different actors playing with that.

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The commission wants to, sort of have a very specific framework to refer to. But, other actors want to have more indicators to, for example, be able to do some cherry picking.

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So if this set of indicators gives you the image that is not very convenient. For example, for a member state, then the member state can use other indicators to to say Yes, but if you look at those indicators who we think are more proper to describe, describe our country, then we see we are doing

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well. So that's how how the game looks like, but it's more visible in other spaces than the parliamentary questions, I would say.

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Yes, I think I think if I can just add up that we also made interviews with social partners for example and they also discussed the use of ROP as very important in their work as they need this this particular indicator on the table if they want to push anything through the European Union's institutions.

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So this became probably hegemonic and I think it is very important what Marianna said that.

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That different member states can choose different indicators and that's the case of Germany that is using not the ARP to measure their progress toward the this strategy but the low work intensity one because the focus of German government is on the labor market and on the employment.

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So this is very interesting also how we can let's say you know. Play with those indicators.

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We have one more. Yeah, sorry, sorry.

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Yeah, and, if I could add just If I go to just, I don't think in response.

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I'm not sure if I like totally agree with the comments that we found what we expected.

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Well, there are 2 reasons. One, I would Say is the emotional use of the which I think is not so obvious when you refer to the indicator as a technical tool.

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You would expect it, if you think of the like politics as something that is more emotional and people present themselves.

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In a certain way but II would think that in like In quantification studies we like to like think that indicators sort of depoliticize the debates and pound the emotions.

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Whereas here You don't always see it. I would say that was maybe a bit surprising. And, yeah.

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I stopped there because there is another.

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Yeah, thank you very much. Was really interesting. I was wondering about the old heedimony of ARP if you had taken a look at the old hegemony of Aropy if you had taken a look the studies by the EPRP if you had taken a look on these studies by the EPRS, the European Parliamentary

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Research Services, the EPRS, the European Parliamentary Research Services and Parliamentary Research Services, and whether they were using ROP and Parliamentary Research Services, and whether they were using Arropy and whether they were using ARROPEE or did they also use other indicators to balance what ARP says.

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And also by the parliamentary questions do you think that the the mention of RP does it coincide with for instance the release of a new study of a new briefing by the European Parliamentary Research Services or I don't know if this is something that you've explored like how how often do we talk about therapy and why does this question

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emerge? In the parliamentary questions.

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Okay, so. We are aware of the European Parliament Research Centre and Marianne, I don't know if you and Magda use those documents in your analyzers.

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I tried to contact even the European Parliamentary Centre unfortunately unsuccessfully. Yes.

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Yeah, we did a broader, study of the documents. But I must say it's very hard to give you a direct answer.

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Because I think there are many situations that, sort of, provoke using DROP.

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That would be one of them. But, if you look at how, certain, and PM piece let's say European parliamentaries Yoseth also.

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In response to what happens at their national level, that's also a very, important point of reference.

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They are so trying to Somehow relates to the public at the national level. So sometimes they use it all of a sudden to point to the poverty.

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I know in Greece or in Spain. So to, shorten my answer. I would say yes that's also one of the things that could trigger it but there are like many more that trigger the usage of a

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And could you remind me the second question? Oh, okay. OK, great. Okay.

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Thank you.

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Okay, so I would like to stop it even if it is a very interesting discussion because we have other 2 presentations.

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So thank you very much. For this interesting paper that you share with us and now it's the floor is for open data in higher education and research in the dangerous of transparency.

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A by You are there. Thank you very much for being with us.

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Yes, thank you. Thank you very much for organizing this session and for sharing. So today I'm going to talk to you about open data in higher education and research.

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Sorry. Yes, thank you. And I will tackle the issues of transparency and democracy.

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Yeah, the slide doesn't. Sorry, it's not working.

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Oh, okay. Thank you very much. And so transparency at the time, the quizzer religious significance since the eightys.

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It's become a discourse without adversary, a position from which it has become too costly to distance oneself.

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Indeed, when an organization is promoting or implementing transparency, it appears like it has nothing to hide and it's bestowing cultural and moral capital on itself.

332
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:33.000
Open data is one of the key instruments to implement transparency policies. There's been a strong organisation from stakeholders which started at the beginning of the 20 first century and since then open data has been integrated into government's agenda.

333
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:42.000
So the most famous initiative is Obama's Open Government Initiative when he arrived in office. In France we have the Wuppoon Referee, the Digital Rapperly Clow, which was passed in 2,016 and which basically makes mandatory for public organizations to open their data.

334
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:54.000
And which basically makes it mandatory for public organizations to open their data. So of course it's not specifying which data for public organizations to open their data.

335
00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:06.000
So of course it's not specifying which data exactly they're choose to open and there's no sanctions open data is often perceived as a non-partisan pan-deiological, pre-political issue.

336
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:13.000
Joe Bates has done a really interesting work where she shows that it's advocates come from very various horizons.

337
00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:28.000
And she also, so they share really different interests. And she also shows that the open data community is really hard to appreciate from a political standpoint because advocates really span the whole political divide.

338
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:33.000
And so for all these reasons, open data is really framed as a non-political issue.

339
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:46.000
And the association of transparency with neutrality and objectivity is particularly striking in the case of open data because it's coupled with the common association of numbers with the neutrality and objectivity.

340
00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:53.000
So for all these perceived characteristics, open data is often framed as a key resource for democratic futures.

341
00:59:53.000 --> 01:00:03.000
So in the institutional discourse, it's described as a source of democratic vitality, a powerful means to restore trust in public action or as a lever for greater transparency in public action.

342
01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:12.000
So those are quotes from a strategic French strategic documents and open data. And this somewhat all encompassing discourse is really a code by all my informants.

343
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:16.000
When I ask them why should we open data? They're always answering first by a reference to democracy.

344
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:35.000
Systematically. And after that, some of them might refer to innovation or the economics. So basically the idea is that the open data would bridge the gap between the citizens and the decision makers by giving citizens and the decision makers by giving citizens an access to how public money is spent.

345
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:42.000
So I'm aware that there are other reasons why we open data, but I'm really going to focus today on the democratic arguments.

346
01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:51.000
The idea I would like to unpack the systematic association between open data and democracy by questioning the transparency produced through open data.

347
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:58.000
So to do so, I will focus on a case study, which is the data on student enrollment in French universities and higher schools.

348
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:10.000
So these data come from the various software programmes used in the student registration process within the different universities and higher schools and they are collected each year by the Ministry of Higher Education and Research.

349
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:26.000
So from now on when I will say the ministry is always the Ministry of Higher Education and Research, which also takes on their opening and the ministry's open data portal, which is called Data So I would like to assess the transparency produced at 2 steps of the Open Data Life.

350
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:34.000
First of all, at the data production step. Does the quantification process reflect reality in an unbiased neutral and transparent manner?

351
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:44.000
And at the data opening step does opening data make the collected data trend to the citizens what information disappears in the data opening process.

352
01:01:44.000 --> 01:02:00.000
So to try to and answer those questions, I've mostly been doing document analysis. And I've been exploiting, manipulating the open data sets and I've been then doing interviews to try to understand what I found in my documentaries and on the United States.

353
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:09.000
So I will go rather quickly on the first step, which is data production because the sociology of classification has already shown us a lot of things on that.

354
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:17.000
If we go back to basics, there was there has shown that there is a distinction between measure and quantification.

355
01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:23.000
Quantifying made means elaborating a series of conventions of equivalence which involves comparisons, negotiations, compromises, etc.

356
01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:36.000
While measure only intervenes after as the implementation of such conventions of equivalence. Now in our case study, what are the conventional equivalents?

357
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:47.000
They are in the technical file, which is a 130 pages long. 130 pages long documents that the ministry sends each year in September pages long documents that the ministry sends each year in September to all universities and higher schools.

358
01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:57.000
So this DUCI technique maps out the modalities of the data collection campaign, the viables that are going to be requested and they standards and reference systems used.

359
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:10.000
And what is important to understand is that the university's software programs are encoded according to these instructions and it really does not happen that universities request information from students that the ministry does not request.

360
01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:18.000
And so basically the ministry decides what data is worth creating and how and hence what data is produced or not produced.

361
01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:22.000
So since I'm a PhD student, I've taken a look at what information is produced and myself is requested on myself.

362
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:39.000
And what I found striking is that there is no viable regarding the funding status of PhD students. And regarding the PH duration, It's interesting to know that the universities are required to encourage PhD students are either first, second or third year.

363
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:48.000
So PhD student in their fourths, fifths. 6 years and so on is still going to be counted as a third year PhD student.

364
01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:54.000
So this, I mean as a result, this has consequences. As a result, it's really difficult in France.

365
01:03:54.000 --> 01:04:06.000
Find reliable, comparable and existing data on these topics. And I don't think it's harmless because the phoning status is of PhD students or the duration of PhDs, they're important public policy issues.

366
01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:21.000
You know, higher education in a context of increasing precariousness for early career researchers. Now, if we move on to the data opening step, so whole body of literature has already shown that open data does not necessarily mean transparency.

367
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:33.000
Indeed, data is a strategic resource for organizations which they may only have a limited interest in sharing. Organizations control the information released and open risk-free datasets or datasets that are to their advantage.

368
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:53.000
And this led Rigi atal to coin the expression strategically opaque transparency. So what I've done is that I've compared all the viables collected by the ministry with the viable that we know the ministry as with all the viables that are open in the open data sets to try to understand what information is

369
01:04:53.000 --> 01:05:00.000
withheld in or concealed in the data opening process. But I found that only 2 viables were fully open.

370
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:08.000
Then there were 9 variables where the transparency was partial, which means that there's a lot of information between the collection and the opening.

371
01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:13.000
And then there were 45 viables which are not open at all.

372
01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:22.000
For most of these variables, which are not open or partially open, it's for regulatory reasons to avoid the reidentification of students.

373
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:36.000
There was also a technical justification which is to facilitate the reuse of data because the lighter data set the easier it will be to manipulate and the quicker it will be to manipulate on an average machine.

374
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:50.000
But there was also another explanation which is a strategic one. And so the viables, there were 2 viables and the social professional categories of parents which were collected but were not open.

375
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:57.000
So I asked to an agent of the ministry, well, how come that they did not open this viable?

376
01:05:57.000 --> 01:06:05.000
And this agent is from the Department of the Ministry Statistical Services, the department which was in charge of opening the data.

377
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:20.000
And he told me that the selected viables that avoid discrimination, though they did not want to stigmatize universities whereas and I quote these are universities that do everything possible to help with this kind of thing this kind of thing being here, social diversity.

378
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:27.000
But it's striking is that there are other viables that have shows to open such as the number of international students and where they're from.

379
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:35.000
And in this situation, there was no issue with, and I quote, stigmatizing universities, for instance, a lack of international diversity of the student body.

380
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:44.000
But there is an issue when you are considering what the stigmatization of universities based on their lack of social diversity.

381
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:51.000
So what can we conclude from these from this presentation? First of all, open data does not achieve transparency.

382
01:06:51.000 --> 01:07:01.000
Data does not reflect reality but transforms it so we need to acknowledge the socially and cognitively creative dimension of classification.

383
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:09.000
Only a fraction of the produced data is open, made it transparent to the citizens for regulatory, technical and strategic reasons.

384
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:17.000
But if we go beyond that conclusion, open data infrastructure is eco-enabled and perform neoliberal reforms in higher education.

385
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:26.000
Producing and opening data and at topic contributes to make it a public issue but when no data is available the topic is more likely to remain a blind spot for public policy.

386
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:37.000
So this is the example of the social diversity of the student body, which is not where there is no viable available to us, but we are variable available to us and the international diversity of the student body.

387
01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:38.000
Data Infrastructure are not just technical programs but practical relays of political objectives to reform the sector.

388
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:59.000
And this is what the weM bandwidth. S shows in his work. Data standards hacked as Eden rules regulate how and which higher education data are recorded and reported, which shape how universities may be known, perceived and potentially intervened upon.

389
01:07:59.000 --> 01:08:08.000
This leads us to, well, to think of open data as an embodiment of a democracy, a democracy to use a sellers expression.

390
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:20.000
There is an increase in a rise in governance by indicators. But meanwhile, the data production and opening processes remain opaque, which makes it much more complicated for citizens to question such indicators.

391
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:32.000
And though maintaining the appearance of democracies through transparency, it actually contributes to the remoteness of the demos from participation in public decision, namely in the definition of educators which orient public action.

392
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:39.000
Thank you very much.

393
01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:46.000
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. For this very interesting presentation about Open Data Poline.

394
01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:56.000
Is there any questions in the room?

395
01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:59.000
Actually, I have a first

396
01:08:59.000 --> 01:09:02.000
There is one if I hear it correctly. Yeah, from a Gusha. Thank you.

397
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:14.000
Thank you. Thank you for this amazing presentation. It was very interesting for me and I wonder because the slide in which you show how what kinds of data might be used for some stigmatization and all kinds.

398
01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:35.000
I wonder if in your data you see any signs of ideology and the ideological thinking and let's say goals put by the popul ideological goals of the public authority in terms of which data they want to collect and which data they make public.

399
01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:42.000
Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Well. Maybe, sorry, maybe I wasn't really clear.

400
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:52.000
That's what I'm thinking when I'm talking about the fact that they do not collect data about the PhD, sorry, the studies of PhD students whether they're funded or not.

401
01:09:52.000 --> 01:09:53.000
Or the fact that it's encoded at, you know, first year, second year, 3 years.

402
01:09:53.000 --> 01:10:05.000
I think it's rather ideological because it means that Well, especially the PhD's funding studies, it means that it's not really that relevant.

403
01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:14.000
So the working conditions of PhD students is not that relevant a lot. So to be fair, there is another collection campaign.

404
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:34.000
Where they do get some information on the funding status but they only collected very aggregated data so the full number of funded PhD students and we have no road data so we can't analyze this data because we just have the okay this is the full number of pages students which have the okay this is the phone number of PhD students which were

405
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:38.000
funded we're funding and we can't cross-legged students which were funding. And we can't analyze the data for instance with funding.

406
01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:46.000
And we can't analyze the data for instance with we can't analyze the data for instance with the well for instance the lengths of their PhD how long this is going to take or the disciplines Yes, that's, I mean, I don't know if that answers your question.

407
01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:57.000
And for the opening, yes, I think the fact not to open data on the social diversity of the student body, I find it extremely ideological rather the fact that they would open data on the international diversity of the student body.

408
01:10:57.000 --> 01:11:10.000
I think it's really ideological because it means that it's OK to have universities compete between themselves to attract more and they should compete together to attract more international students, but the social diversity remains a blind spot.

409
01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:19.000
It's not as pressing a political issue. Thank you. Thank you so much.

410
01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:24.000
Thank you. I don't know if there is anyone else because I have a couple of questions.

411
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:27.000
Oh, there's 1 1 one other question.

412
01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:28.000
Okay.

413
01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:35.000
Yeah, thank you. Very interesting and it's really interesting that you have access at it that you can show this selectivity.

414
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:52.000
I found this really revealing. I thought, well, in, for schools there it has been shown that say the publication of certain data can influence.

415
01:11:52.000 --> 01:12:07.000
Decisions on parents where they send their children to its school they send their children and I thought This seems to be like the argument that has been put forward by the administrators for the universities as well.

416
01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:16.000
But then, it came to my mind well on the school level, what they usually, I mean, there's a certain movement in Germany at least.

417
01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:27.000
To. Start with Compensatory. Resource payments to disadvantaged schools. So that would actually be the consequence.

418
01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:37.000
Right to say if we have the information that these universities have a more difficult student composition then they should be privy.

419
01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:40.000
Privileged in terms of Revenues. Yeah. Well, yeah, thank you very much for this observation.

420
01:12:40.000 --> 01:13:04.000
Well, these data are used in the negotiations between the ministry and the universities in the budget negotiations. But these negotiations are kept secret like I can't I don't know what indicators are used exactly and I try to have access to that but I could not.

421
01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:20.000
So I don't know to what extent the the well social professional category of the students. Comes into a count and is used in the budget negotiations.

422
01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:42.000
I don't know I mean some we have students that want to social scholarship in France, but those are different data which are not collected by the universities and it's not the universities which deals with that so I can't really, unfortunately I can't really answer your question but I mean your observation variates a great

423
01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:45.000
remark.

424
01:13:45.000 --> 01:14:03.000
Thank you. I just have a quick question for curiosity. Which kind of actors are actually involved in the definition of which open data are The main one was that, needs to be quantified and, measured.

425
01:14:03.000 --> 01:14:10.000
Because I think one of the issues here is about the actors who is involved, who can speak, who can.

426
01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:11.000
Yeah.

427
01:14:11.000 --> 01:14:28.000
Sustain a different positions for, for this kind of thing. So I won't because you said the ministry but I didn't know if it was or I do a pool of technicians or something like that or maybe citizens, but.

428
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:29.000
I don't know.

429
01:14:29.000 --> 01:14:39.000
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, thank you very much for this question because actually I wanted to, I mean I had a slide about it but I deleted it because I had a slide about it but I deleted it because I didn't have enough time. I deleted it because I didn't have enough time.

430
01:14:39.000 --> 01:15:09.000
So the Open Data Portal is managed by a team of administrators. And so for most of the datasets, it's only managed by, I mean, it's only the administrators which decide which they sets are going to be open or not.

431
01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:36.000
But then there are several sensitive assets. For which the assets actually had to go back all the way to the minister's office for instance the dataset on the bidatory accounts of universities which had to go all the way to the minister's office and the minister's office and the validated the fact that it will be released the fact that it will be released. And then I don't have time to dwell on that.

432
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:40.000
I've heard of several interfaces where, for instance, I don't have time to dwell on that.

433
01:15:40.000 --> 01:15:51.000
I've heard of several interfaces where, for instance, in the case of several interfaces where, for instance, in the case of the Shanghai-ranking consultancy actually made a few remarks and refused to rank the Shanghai rankings where, for instance, in the case of the Shanghai

434
01:15:51.000 --> 01:16:00.000
Ranking, the Shanghai ranking consultancy actually made a few remarks and refused to rank certain universities based on the fact that they would be only empty administrative shells because of the fact that the French higher education landscape is constantly moving with merging, etc.

435
01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:09.000
And there was 3 universities which had merged and the Shanghai Consolidency ranking said well we can't you know rank the new bigger university because it's an expensive empty shell.

436
01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:22.000
Oh look at that by the fact that by the way sorry there is a data set which rank which where the university is the subcomponent and university is the sub-component and not the bigger university is the sub-component and not the bigger university.

437
01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:27.000
And so after that there were actually interventions from presidents and not the bigger university. And so after that there were actually interventions from president of university.

438
01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:37.000
And so after that there were actually interventions from president of universities, from the minister's office to have that open deficit changed so that the you know the line would not be the subcomponent of the bigger university, but the newly created bigger university and all the references to the subcomponent who disappear.

439
01:16:37.000 --> 01:16:50.000
So this is the fact that so administrators and emphasize that their independent autonomous. But actually there are quite a few discrepant notes where we can see that there are quite a few discrepant notes where we can see that there are some political interventions.

440
01:16:50.000 --> 01:16:51.000
So thank you for this question.

441
01:16:51.000 --> 01:17:04.000
Thank you very much. Now that the answer was so much to interesting and be added a lot to what you already told.

442
01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:05.000
Okay, thank you very much.

443
01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:07.000
I don't know if there is anyone else, but I think we are running out of time. And thank you, Pauline.

444
01:17:07.000 --> 01:17:11.000
Amazing presentation.

445
01:17:11.000 --> 01:17:33.000
Okay, so now is the floor is the for Walter Bach with his presentation. Which title is the population registers and census taking in germany more than a tactic or relationship.

446
01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:36.000
Thank you very much.

447
01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:45.000
Yeah, yeah, thank you for for having me. I'm really grateful that this this session has been organized.

448
01:17:45.000 --> 01:18:13.000
I feel quite at home here with the discussions that are going on. Right. I'm My topic is population registers and census taking in Germany more than a technical relationship which means that here are coming 2 technologies together that have been or are largely have been separated in the literature and they Now come here together in.

449
01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:23.000
Practical sense. In 2,031 the German census is planned to be entirely register based.

450
01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:34.000
Which means that it will be based in entirely on administrative registers and administrative data on for that.

451
01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:44.000
A personal personal identification number is needed to make these 2 link all this data together.

452
01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:54.000
So while register-based sensors have been conducted in other countries, the introduction of a register based census is far from self understood in Germany.

453
01:18:54.000 --> 01:19:08.000
This is due to the fact that gathering personal information by the state became highly politicized in the 19 seventies and eighties on the one hand and on the other hand in response to that politicization.

454
01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:20.000
Strong individual privacy regulations have been. Set up in germany that have set a standard one could say worldwide as being the most strict standards.

455
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:35.000
So and they pose a serious technical challenge for such an endeavor. So how was this seemingly improbable link and policy change in German centers taking possible.

456
01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:41.000
Well, it's still plans, so there's also still a risk that it won't be achieved.

457
01:19:41.000 --> 01:20:04.000
So on the one hand, if we think about theories that could be used, I looked at world quality theory on the one hand because from this perspective It has been argued that census taking is a global script that diffuses worldwide has become the standard of information gathering by the state.

458
01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:12.000
And this is mainly, let's say, has been generalised after the second world war basically.

459
01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:23.000
Now. A different perspective would. Beautiful issue from a national institutional point of view.

460
01:20:23.000 --> 01:20:35.000
So, the French Economy Di Condition would argue that you need investments in form.

461
01:20:35.000 --> 01:20:49.000
Within a state in order to mount such an ambitious endeavour. And it must also be stabilized in the long run by by public action.

462
01:20:49.000 --> 01:21:00.000
American scholars. Emphasize the interaction between state and society whereas The Razir has been criticized for being overly state-centered.

463
01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:18.000
These scholars would say, well, it's also important what societal actors do. And I haven't found much theoretical work on on population registers so The work that I'm referring to is comes from historians.

464
01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:27.000
And this is quite interesting what they do. So they Consider civil registration as a legal infrastructure of global human rights, right?

465
01:21:27.000 --> 01:21:35.000
Sounds very much like what policy theory, but since they are historians, theory is not a word that they would use.

466
01:21:35.000 --> 01:21:53.000
And they also have this idea that these civil registers would empower citizens. Right? So this is also different from the census as governance government technology.

467
01:21:53.000 --> 01:22:06.000
Now, since my slides are rather full of information, I think I will just tell you briefly what is on there so that we can also have a discussion.

468
01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:22.000
So in the nineteenth century several forms of population registers have been established on the Yeah, on the territory of the German Empire.

469
01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:38.000
So, and they were. Not very useful at the beginning, they became more useful later. What they mainly established is being registered as a as something habitual for the population.

470
01:22:38.000 --> 01:22:54.000
These registers were later then more systematized by the by the Nazi regime and were also used to persecute the Jews in other marginalized groups.

471
01:22:54.000 --> 01:23:04.000
Importantly, these population registers were used for Estimating the population in between censuses.

472
01:23:04.000 --> 01:23:12.000
And they were. In the population registers. On the other hand, we're corrected by the census.

473
01:23:12.000 --> 01:23:21.000
So these 2 were related in this respect. Now the history of census taking is Let's say quite similar.

474
01:23:21.000 --> 01:23:34.000
It was established in the nineteenth century. It was originally designed to estimate the size of the population.

475
01:23:34.000 --> 01:23:41.000
In order to facilitate some fiscal relations between the German states.

476
01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:52.000
Now, And there is a debate to which extent all census files were used for persecution during the Nazi regime.

477
01:23:52.000 --> 01:24:13.000
So for quite a long time we haven't had a census in Germany. So What is today Germany saw the last census in 1,946 then in the German Democratic Republic.

478
01:24:13.000 --> 01:24:31.000
They had they had central population registers with a with a PID with a personal identification number. Whereas the West German political system operated on a decentralized federal level.

479
01:24:31.000 --> 01:24:51.000
So. These were 2 different statistical systems and the last traditional censuses were therefore conducted in the 1,900 eightys so in 1,981 in the GDR and in 1,987 in West Germany.

480
01:24:51.000 --> 01:25:07.000
So this is more than 30 years ago, right?

481
01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:10.000
So.

482
01:25:10.000 --> 01:25:16.000
For

483
01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:37.000
No, yeah. That's it. Now it is in referring mainly to West Germany because the issue of data gathering became politicized in West Germany in several steps.

484
01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:47.000
So in the seventys for example the Social Liberal Coalition planned to introduce a personal identification number that was then criticized.

485
01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:13.000
And pave the ground for rather larger awareness of the population. Of this process of data gathering. In the 19 eighties then when the census was planned a really large Boycott movement emerged and the sensors had to be postponed because it was impossible to implement it.

486
01:26:13.000 --> 01:26:28.000
And then it only took place in 1987. Now as a response to these to this boycott movement quite high privacy standards.

487
01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:42.000
Came into place. And they were also constitutional court decisions on what can be done and what not.

488
01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:56.000
At the same time, at a European level. We today have a demand for statistical data which is geo-referenced and this is a new dimension a new level of detail of official for official data.

489
01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:11.000
So whereas we have these very strong requirements in Germany, now the European level says, we need more and more detailed data, right?

490
01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:15.000
We see a certain tension here.

491
01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:32.000
And I think we can see in Germany preparations for register based sends us since about almost 15 years.

492
01:27:32.000 --> 01:27:42.000
Not sure how much detail I should describe here. So we have a law saying that

493
01:27:42.000 --> 01:27:52.000
Citizens should have online access to their personal information. And a user account is defined as a crucial device for access to services.

494
01:27:52.000 --> 01:28:07.000
Right? And this is also a very new liberal idea here. Because from this data cockpit we as citizens are then supposed to directly control the government.

495
01:28:07.000 --> 01:28:21.000
Or the administration because you check as you did you check what is in your in your account and then if there's something in that you think is not correct then you can intervene.

496
01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:31.000
Well, a part of the population is certainly happy to do that, but there's certainly also other parts that are quite lost when they are required to do so.

497
01:28:31.000 --> 01:28:51.000
Now what they also did is they consulted various experts. And they, so the lawyers said. If you want to do something like that you have to use a privacy by design principle.

498
01:28:51.000 --> 01:29:03.000
So this privacy is built in, so to say. And what he also did is a European comparison of such registration systems.

499
01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:08.000
And

500
01:29:08.000 --> 01:29:12.000
What was so

501
01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:21.000
I mean there there are certain countries where it is. That have been studied more in depth like Estonia, also Switzerland, Denmark and Sweden.

502
01:29:21.000 --> 01:29:35.000
But one line that I found really interesting in a crucial report was it was put Germany was portrayed as a rather strange animal as you said because they said well.

503
01:29:35.000 --> 01:29:43.000
Almost everybody has such a personal identification number in Europe. It's only, I don't know.

504
01:29:43.000 --> 01:29:49.000
A handful of countries out of 30 that don't have one.

505
01:29:49.000 --> 01:30:12.000
And of course there were There was consultation with civil society stakeholders. There were also debates. In parliament but in the end the act was passed Right, it was also passed during the COVID pandemic.

506
01:30:12.000 --> 01:30:20.000
You could and during this period you could also it was very much clear that the German statistical and information infrastructure.

507
01:30:20.000 --> 01:30:30.000
Was not very functional for, let's say, fighting a pandemic because, well, all sorts of reasons.

508
01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:37.000
It was, we, Everybody sense that we didn't have enough data.

509
01:30:37.000 --> 01:30:50.000
So If we look to this So the last census was actually conducted as a hybrid census. So it was conducted.

510
01:30:50.000 --> 01:31:04.000
Using some administrative data complemented by a quite large sample survey. This is also, is also the model that has been used in the 2,011 sensors.

511
01:31:04.000 --> 01:31:18.000
Now if we look towards 2,031 there are certain challenges still left. Despite the investments that have been made already.

512
01:31:18.000 --> 01:31:31.000
First of all, the German register infrastructure is fragmented. And some information is lacking. So for example, we have we don't have a register.

513
01:31:31.000 --> 01:31:43.000
National Register on Buildings and Dwellings. We don't have a register on educational attainment of the population.

514
01:31:43.000 --> 01:31:54.000
The population registers that are kept at the municipal level. They contain certain errors in terms of over as well as under coverage.

515
01:31:54.000 --> 01:32:03.000
Today, service are conducted for correction, but if you want to leave that out, you have to think about how you can.

516
01:32:03.000 --> 01:32:12.000
Maintain these registers valid. Probably have signs of life approach will be used

517
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:34.000
There's also a clearing house that is part of this privacy by design. Approach. So when one branch of the administration wants to have information on a citizen from another branch, they will have to refer to a clearing house.

518
01:32:34.000 --> 01:32:40.000
And they will then decide if this is a legitimate request. Right? But it is still, it has not been defined yet.

519
01:32:40.000 --> 01:32:56.000
How this clearinghouse will actually operate. They will use the text ID as the personal identification number.

520
01:32:56.000 --> 01:33:04.000
It is also not very clear how this will be implemented. So a whole set of implementation questions.

521
01:33:04.000 --> 01:33:14.000
And as I already mentioned, it is not clear how citizens will. Fill their implicated role in the data cop bid.

522
01:33:14.000 --> 01:33:18.000
So.

523
01:33:18.000 --> 01:33:22.000
To conclude.

524
01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:38.000
Well, for a world polity approach, this from a world quality perspective this case says well here we see that census data is being demanded from you.

525
01:33:38.000 --> 01:33:42.000
The EU level so that would support this perspective. At the same time, the register based census is globally still a niche product.

526
01:33:42.000 --> 01:33:53.000
So we will have to see how that diffuses to other countries. But Spain, for example, conducted is certainly not a Scandinavian country where this model comes from.

527
01:33:53.000 --> 01:34:17.000
And they managed to conduct A register-based sensors. We See also that There are still quite a few investments in form to be done.

528
01:34:17.000 --> 01:34:42.000
Some have been Some have been achieved already and they certainly explain the progress that has been made. But we will also have to see like how how this will develop in the future because I think citizens are not really aware yet what happened here.

529
01:34:42.000 --> 01:34:59.000
And when they Notice it might be that, let's say the courts will again become part of the entire game and in the past this has been The most significant game changer.

530
01:34:59.000 --> 01:35:09.000
For stopping the census in the 19. In the Si mean, personally, I'm not sure if this is a good thing to do or not.

531
01:35:09.000 --> 01:35:22.000
So. Savings are estimated to be by 98%. This is tremendous compared to a traditional census.

532
01:35:22.000 --> 01:35:40.000
So I wouldn't see that there is a certain way back, but German Federalism sometimes it's not very rational, so establishing the the building register.

533
01:35:40.000 --> 01:35:47.000
Probably won't be a big issue, but the education register has been planned. For 20 years or so.

534
01:35:47.000 --> 01:35:57.000
And it's still up there. So you'll have to see if. If this really comes becomes reality.

535
01:35:57.000 --> 01:36:05.000
Right. So thank you for your attention.

536
01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:20.000
Thank you very much, Walter. I don't know if there is anyone in the flow. In the room that wants to raise questions.

537
01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:25.000
We don't see the room that well, so.

538
01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:26.000
Okay, thank you.

539
01:36:26.000 --> 01:36:31.000
Oh Thank you.

540
01:36:31.000 --> 01:36:39.000
Okay. If there is no one in the room, then I would have a question. Thank you, Walter.

541
01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:40.000
Sure.

542
01:36:40.000 --> 01:36:51.000
It's, it's a really fascinating case. You mentioned that There is.

543
01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:52.000
Yeah.

544
01:36:52.000 --> 01:37:09.000
Certain Europeanization dynamics here. So, This is the somehow connect also to our case because we very clearly see the push for harmonization and that it's a journey goes spreads to different policy areas.

545
01:37:09.000 --> 01:37:14.000
I was, I was wondering, Well, because you have different ways in which you can harmonize data.

546
01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:26.000
You don't have to do it for registers. You can base your census or also on service.

547
01:37:26.000 --> 01:37:48.000
And, that's for example the case in Poland. And, If there is like, with the whole German context with the, whole debate from the eighties where you had those that's it reservations.

548
01:37:48.000 --> 01:38:09.000
People raised The question is whether maybe it would be safer to rely on on service there because you have sort of, you can argue that they are, let's say, more, protecting the privacy.

549
01:38:09.000 --> 01:38:20.000
Oh, of the citizens. As they are not relying on administrative data. Sorry, this is my dog here.

550
01:38:20.000 --> 01:38:21.000
No.

551
01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:32.000
I don't know if you can hear my dog but you can do much about it right now. Yeah, so was there any debate whether to base it really on administrative data or maybe to go with service.

552
01:38:32.000 --> 01:38:43.000
Also because, maybe that's the issue of money, but was it even raised in the debate?

553
01:38:43.000 --> 01:38:53.000
Thank you. This is a very interesting point. There's practically no debate. This is a very nerdy issue.

554
01:38:53.000 --> 01:39:06.000
I mean, you partly see it also here in the Congress. I organize 2 sessions on census taking and they were really poorly attended.

555
01:39:06.000 --> 01:39:19.000
Because people seem to think that this is just there. You know this data is just there. So in Germany, in West, then unified Germany.

556
01:39:19.000 --> 01:39:23.000
There was no census in the 2,000 census round.

557
01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:31.000
As I indicated, right? You see, so we didn't have a census for 20 years.

558
01:39:31.000 --> 01:39:47.000
Between 1987 and 2,011 and that was because administrators shied away from. This possible public Boycott Movement.

559
01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:56.000
It was not primarily a thing of money at the beginning. They didn't want to, you know, this was really.

560
01:39:56.000 --> 01:40:16.000
A failure for the state, to be defeated in the in the constitutional court and they one didn't want to have a similar situation again so deliberations about changing the entire model.

561
01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:40.000
I think date back to the 19 nineties or something so when Yeah, I mean the the Scandinavian countries They did it much much earlier and I don't know I think the first scientific article on how this could spread to other countries is from the 1,900 eightys.

562
01:40:40.000 --> 01:40:46.000
So I think in the statistical community

563
01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:57.000
That say the seed of this discussion comes from the 19 eightys. Right, so. And. Yeah.

564
01:40:57.000 --> 01:41:19.000
But it didn't really. Cross this boundary I would say to a larger public so there is not What was the case is that The first proposal for this for this register-based census act.

565
01:41:19.000 --> 01:41:32.000
Had to be severely modified. So that's what I mean I talked only to one expert. And he said.

566
01:41:32.000 --> 01:41:50.000
That was after. Interministerial coordination and afterwards the second draft came out very much changed. I mean usually between the federal state and the The state level, it is a question of money.

567
01:41:50.000 --> 01:42:04.000
So who is going to pay for that? You of course have to invest also heavily in technical infrastructure if you want to assure all that that is required by this privacy of design principle.

568
01:42:04.000 --> 01:42:14.000
And so You know, usually the the federal states in other states in Germany. They want to keep on hold on to their competencies, right?

569
01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:30.000
So they're always very afraid to give anything away. In terms of competences to the to the federal level to the national level.

570
01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:37.000
But what they always would like to have is money from the national level right so This is usually the game here.

571
01:42:37.000 --> 01:42:52.000
So the. National level says, OK, so we have some money here. How much co-determination can we have in this process?

572
01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:55.000
Yeah.

573
01:42:55.000 --> 01:42:56.000
Please yeah.

574
01:42:56.000 --> 01:42:59.000
Thank you.

575
01:42:59.000 --> 01:43:07.000
Yep, hi, thanks for your presentation. So this question is coming from a certain amount of ignorance about census.

576
01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:24.000
How they're conducted. In the past I've been a user of sense of census data but I tend I work with data from the internet now but II work with data from the internet nowadays but my question is about the attitudes towards privacy and how, but my question is about the attitudes towards privacy and how public might the public might sort

577
01:43:24.000 --> 01:43:31.000
of the attitudes towards privacy and how public might the public might sort of prevent the public might sort of prevent the necessary changes that would be required to bring about administrative or register based data collection.

578
01:43:31.000 --> 01:43:57.000
You were talking about in the 19 eighties there was resistance and of course there's a a particular historical context that I'm you know that I'm conscious of but if I think about in the Australian context In the 19 eighties we had this a referendum to bring a to bring in a what was called the Australia card and it was a I think it

579
01:43:57.000 --> 01:44:12.000
was in 1,988 and it was a sort of a basically a personal identification number that would allow the make things much easier to connect these administrative data sets together and it was rejected and I don't know where we are at with it in Australia but it hasn't come back again.

580
01:44:12.000 --> 01:44:33.000
And so my question is do you think I the last 20 years with the rise of the internet and social media that has led to a change in attitudes toward, People in Australia we were resisting the idea about governments being able to link data sets together but next thing you know we are giving all our data away to to corporations you know in

581
01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:41.000
the US through through social media and so I'm just wondering is that how's that changes in attitudes affecting the work that or the census taking or register based data collection.

582
01:44:41.000 --> 01:44:47.000
Thank you. Yeah, I had it on my last slide as a, because I was also struck, right?

583
01:44:47.000 --> 01:45:04.000
I thought, you know, as I framed the The question for myself. I thought I have to explain how how can we explain this policy change right?

584
01:45:04.000 --> 01:45:14.000
But when I went to to Spain and talked to a colleague there he said Public from an international perspective.

585
01:45:14.000 --> 01:45:22.000
It is rather the other way round. It is you have to explain why Germany is so strange and so resistant.

586
01:45:22.000 --> 01:45:42.000
But if you widen the your view as you suggested, if you take these identification numbers into account, which is actually the the crucial point of this entire endeavor, then you have Protest movements also in other countries.

587
01:45:42.000 --> 01:45:52.000
I think the UK had a similar rejection of a personal identification card. And so.

588
01:45:52.000 --> 01:46:20.000
I also thought that maybe it's just, you know, with the entire general change in terms of technological development and how we deal with data, it might be that for everybody it has become so normal to have it have everything on line and have some digital databases that thinking they shouldn't be there is just out of place.

589
01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:37.000
No. And sometimes it actually is very strange, I don't know, your end term. Some administrative branch and they request data from you that obviously is in their files, right?

590
01:46:37.000 --> 01:46:45.000
So when you type it in every time, so this is also an experience as a citizen, you think.

591
01:46:45.000 --> 01:47:00.000
This is not a bit. Awkward that you know they they pretend that they don't have the data and they enter it always so this is a bit Sure.

592
01:47:00.000 --> 01:47:29.000
Thank you very much. It's really interesting. I've seen a few weeks ago a presentation on the Danish identification number and I discovered that the E identification number in Denmark was created by the public administration, but also a coalition of banks, which I found extremely at the very beginning of the century, which I found a bit scary and my reaction was to

593
01:47:29.000 --> 01:47:44.000
find it a bit scary. And I was wondering if you've uncontrolled such I mean actors private actors involved in the personal identification number in Germany because I found in the personal identification number in Germany because I found it so crazy that the actors involved in the personal identification number in Germany because I found it so crazy that a coalition of banks would be

594
01:47:44.000 --> 01:47:47.000
involved in the personal identification number in Germany because I found it so crazy that a coalition of banks would be involved in that that I'm wondering if it' yeah, thank you.

595
01:47:47.000 --> 01:48:09.000
Well, it was. Mackenzie I think who did the study for the government so So we have several bodies that oversee this entire process and One of the contractors was Mackenzie.

596
01:48:09.000 --> 01:48:19.000
So this is One you see there that, you know, they are attributed the competency to do such a thing.

597
01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:29.000
We do have fran Hofer Gazelle Shaft which is a

598
01:48:29.000 --> 01:48:47.000
We research institute that is very this very much applied research and they are involved in creating this this infrastructure this technical infrastructure but it's not the case that really banks are involved.

599
01:48:47.000 --> 01:49:13.000
But what I know from the Scandinavian context for example is that this is being done in Norway I think so it's you know when you open your bank account you're required your they require your personal identification number and when I went to Spain for example I went to a gym and they wanted to see my ID card.

600
01:49:13.000 --> 01:49:19.000
Right, so for having a contract in a gym, what? I didn't see the reason for that, right?

601
01:49:19.000 --> 01:49:32.000
So this is really interesting how how this then spreads and becomes really a gatekeeper for accessing any service.

602
01:49:32.000 --> 01:49:41.000
And there is the people that I referred to, Threater and Breckenridge.

603
01:49:41.000 --> 01:49:52.000
Breckenridge runs a network. Scholars, they are actually doing research on these electronic identification systems.

604
01:49:52.000 --> 01:50:12.000
And so he's based in South Africa and he's written a book also on how biometric identification spreads especially in the global south and this is because and there you have many many more private actors going into that.

605
01:50:12.000 --> 01:50:24.000
And this is because There is no public identification system, but for having contracts private actors are actually interested in being able to PIN down the person.

606
01:50:24.000 --> 01:50:33.000
So it's much more. Coming I think in the global south maybe.

607
01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:37.000
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I don't think we have.

608
01:50:37.000 --> 01:50:42.000
Thank you.

609
01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:43.000
Right.

610
01:50:43.000 --> 01:50:54.000
More time for discussion even if we other question, other general question to be raised. But maybe we will recognize something different.

611
01:50:54.000 --> 01:51:08.000
For keeping on the discussion about this teams and that we are So interesting and that we. So that we will have the chance to carry on.

612
01:51:08.000 --> 01:51:20.000
There's a amazing and very interesting. These courses. Do you want to have anything Mariana?

613
01:51:20.000 --> 01:51:36.000
Yes, thank you to everyone. It was great to hear those presentations. And I hope we'll be able to organize some post conference meeting also to have a bit more.

614
01:51:36.000 --> 01:51:39.000
Discussions.

615
01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:49.000
Yeah, so thank you very much to everyone of you and, enjoy the conference. In, on site.

616
01:51:49.000 --> 01:51:56.000
Thank you very much again.