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yeah. Hello! Good morning. Welcome to our session. Organizational networks, innovation and learning in response of organizational challenges. And the first thing we, of course, need to do is oops

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 acknowledged. country! So, on behalf of everyone gathered, I pay respect to the spirit of country here in arm

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where we are meeting, I acknowledge the past and present, coolen nation, voun-jeri vivo, as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote now aboriginal law, customs and custodianship responsibilities for country and the people that country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

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I recognize the important contribution that first nations thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nations delegates in the room today for the contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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So then, of course, follow, share and attack us on social media, hashtag, Isa sociology.

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and then let's start with the session. So again, welcome to the session of organizational networks. And yeah, I mean, I'm very happy that we have this session when you know me, I'm Michael Kortahama.

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our C. 17. And I've also a history of doing research and publishing

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on organisational networks. So I'm very happy that we we have this session on interorganisational networks. So basically constellations of organisations that are connected. To put it

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very openly, and today, with a specific focus on innovation and and learning. so acknowledging the important role of networks of organizations when it comes to creating and providing information and hopefully developing innovations.

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so. But I'm not here to have a presentation. I just wanted to give some introductory words. so unfortunately, we had on short notice, actually, 2 cancellations, one yesterday night and one

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1 one this night. So when I woke up, basically and the other one yesterday, unfortunately, I so well, I guess statistically, it must happen at some point that people more than one person has to cancel. So we have 2 amazing presentations today.

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and the first one is sorry the first one is. Yes, yes.

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awesome. I apologize.

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he said. He said his name when we started, and I'm I'm just of it.

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I don't know the out jet like this the excuse I can still make right. 2 weeks. Yes, so the first one will be studying interdisciplinary interdisciplinary through the analysis of cognitive networks between scientists in spatial sciences. The case of Slovenia

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and the second one will be, the presentation between hope and despair. The bootstrap worker as a professional figure. So I'm looking forward very much to these presentations. And I would then say without further ado, Let's start

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to the press. Oh, yeah, I should. Maybe so. It's

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this one. So it should just work.

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Yeah. And I'm still sharing.

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This is.

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yeah, they can. Great. That's what we want. Yep.

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So hello to everybody in this short time that I have at my disposal. I will try to present some data about the study of interdisciplinary through the analysis of cognitive networks between scientists and spiritual sciences.

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Me myself, I'm let's say, more based in over studies. But but my colleague, which is Luca Kroneger, he's based more in, let's say, analysis of cognitive networks. So he has done the let's say the statistical part, and I've done. Let's say more theoretical part. I hope you will find the data interesting. Here's the structure of the presentation. First, I'll have a brief introduction.

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Then I will present some facts about the questionability for interdisciplinarity in academic field. Then I will pose some further inquiry into the limits of into this diplomatic. I will elaborate the integration of social dimensions within the spatial sciences, and then I will come to the analysis of case studies. I will try to analyze into disciplinarity specific institutions

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erez agmoni and teams within spatial sciences, and then I will wrap it all in some kind of conclusions. So here is an introduction. So why such a subject? Well, it's clear that the the evolution of scientific ideas in the and the production of knowledge, our concepts, which are strongly connected with the social structure of science and the various ways that scientists collaborate 150.

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However, the modes and types of this collaboration are often unclear

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in this regard. I will not focus on interdisciplinary in general. So I will try to avoid the difficult definition of inter-disciplinarity, because then we can talk on for hours or days or weeks.

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so I will instead focus on specific parts, aspects of interdisciplinarity that associates with the production of academic knowledge within spatial sciences, so the attention will be on the interdisciplinary in the field of spatial sciences, where interdisciplinary cooperation between various discipline, like 2

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architecture construction, landscape architecture, urban sociology for example, plays, a vital role in order to produce quality, spatial planning, and other interventions in space.

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So we could say that interdisciplinarity is inherently present in the field of spatial sciences. Why? Because of the incredible complexity with which are dealing the experts when they are trying to solve a specific spatial problem. So whenever there is a problem in the terms of spatial interventions. Urban planning there has to be interdisciplinarity inherently present. That is supposed to be.

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This is why I use here a quote from a document produced by Temat, which is one of the, let's say, main bodies within the European Union, which takes care of Minister ministers responsible for regional planning which clearly uses and integrates into disciplinarity. We did the documentation as a as an indication of how it should be or how it's supposed to be.

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of course. Why is that that so? Because, of course, these documents, institutions, they all identify the complexity and uncertainty of present societies, and that this complexity is increasing. I just use here 2 books, I mean, I could use many others which I think

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nicely illustrate the complexity of today's networks. Social nectar. When you come across various fields of study

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I used here in Sigmund Balm with liquid modernity, and the famous Early Backs risk society, which nicely illustrates this complexity. Why? Because it very much addresses the production of space. If I use the lefavorous words, and it nicely illustrates the argument of complexity within the spatial sciences.

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so the need to produce to produce interdisciplinary solutions is clearly identified, and we need solutions that crosscut various dimensions, characteristics, goals that are acceptable to a variety of stakeholders involved in each case, when we come across some spatial problems, so in circumstances where instabilities and dynamic environments prevent effective use of singular approaches to spatial interventions.

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The Interdisciplinary Corporation seems to be the right tool to do it.

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and in this sense it tries to assure some kind of interdisciplinary base ground on which it can build to find the solution.

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Well, regardless. This need for a complementary multi-dimensional solution when it comes to the production of knowledge and spatial sciences. The actual use of interdisciplinary is much in question.

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It exists on the declarative level, so on the declarative level, the presence of interdisciplinarity can be detected in a series of strategies and documents.

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for like, for example, the them at one, or, for example, this is the new one. The new European Bauhaus

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are the age 2,020 directives. There is so much interdisciplinary present within this documentation.

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so such approaches were are familiar with the concept of, for example, inclusive science, participatory design, co-creation, co-design or citizen science or other theories or approaches that try to surpass the limited presence of multiple actors in spatial planning.

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however, from declarative. Into this disciplinarity to practical interdisciplinarity goes a long way, and this is, for example, nicely observed in spatial sciences. When we talk about participation in spatial planning. And here is maybe the most famous

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a representation of participative approaches when it comes to spatial sciences, where I use here Sherry's Einstein's letter of participation and participation where participation goes from virtually nonexistent participation to various degrees of citizen power. So

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mit C.

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So there are limits to interdisciplinarity, although the discourse around. Again, the disciplinarity in spatial sciences tries to emphasize the differentiation from Tasbat philosophy, and attempts to work on a holistic approach. The scale is much deep on the side of technical components.

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At least this is the assumption, so the scale is more balancing towards the technical components, whilst the social components are being applied incrementally, only partially, and with limited scope, use and design. So here, in this presentation, we look at the diseases of over emphasis of specific components in spatial sizes.

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And we try to elaborate this on analysis of various case studies. So

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ere

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and To do that, we use the you to see the universal decimal classification system and basically done some data mining in this regard the analyzed data spanned for 30 years for the last 30 years from 1,991 to 2,022.

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And first, we made 3 layers of analysis. First, we analyzed interdisciplinary cover collaboration. So we took all the data, everything that was produced in Slovenia in regard to scientific output, academic output. And we analyze the cloud of shifts and scientific publications between various disciplinary fields. So we used one mode block modeling approach with the application of K-means, clusterings algorithm

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and obtained 8 clusters of organizations according to which we elaborated how autos affiliated to them connect to autos from other disciplinary fields. So we basically looked basically looked, how various disciplines, how much do they cooperate with other disciplines? And how are the cores, in fact, constructed?

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So here is maybe a detail of this small section.

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this small section up there so that you can see how it was calculated. So we made it on the basis of frequency, on the base of intensity of connections. And here are various levels of connections or intensity of connections between disciplines.

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So basically what we found out that there exist various course here for course.

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And these 4, of course, basically represents quite strong borders between disciplinary fields. There was some cooperation between specific disciplinary fields, but mainly the disciplines tend to stick to themselves when it comes to interdisciplinarity with the others, although there was some. Okay.

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then the second layer of analysis was inter on the interorganizational level. So we analyze co-authorships in scientific publications, between institutions, so faculties institute laboratories, Ngos, and so on.

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And we tried to to see which institutions, whether the institutions come for social sciences, whether institutions comes from nature or science, tend to cooperate more with each other, and there were actually some surprising discoveries that a small number of of institutions more intensely cooperates with other institutions, like, for example, the biotechnical faculty which is here And on the top tends to be one of the so-called bridging course.

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So this bridge in court tries to provide some inter this diplomatic ground across natural sciences and social sciences. But such institutions were pretty rare. To tell you the truth, one

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so, but it has to be mentioned in this place, because it would be unfair to say that the the limitations of the limitations are so strong that they force really non collaboration. And then the third layer was the identification of in interdisciplinary collaboration within specific thematic fields. So case studies were performed where we analyze the presence of specific topics within publications that were further positioned into collaborations to actually obtain by block modeling.

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basically saying, how much do various institutions collaborate when it comes to the production of scientific publications on a selected thematic field.

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So basically, first, we analyze how much do disciplines interact between themselves? Then we analyzed which institutions do collaborate with each other. And the third layer was, let's look at specific thematic fields. So let's look at

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Mit, Ctl, and very, let's say, at a specific case studies and see if there is cooperation. When we come to a specific problematic or specific team, and we use these selected thematic fields and identify them on the base of keywords like, for example, sustainability and smart city. So we looked at the teams like sustainability, smart city, and see if, at least in this thematic fields scientists tend to cooperate more between each other, 150,

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and there were some striking resemblances to what we saw. In the first place, because when it comes to sustainability, you can basically see that there is some cooperation between specific institutions.

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But when it comes to the smart city this is much, much, it's virtually empty. So this is quite interesting. Why? Because Smart City is supposed to be a thematic field where social scientists with all living lab core creation, core participations interact with each other and produce 2

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integrated systematic solutions from which benefits the whole creative ecosystem. But it's not happening. So basically, I have some ideas why, this is not happening. But I believe I don't have the time to discuss it, but we can discuss it later.

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So the results showed. Not a lot of interdisciplinary cooperation was in place within specific teams.

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There are, of course, a few institutions that crosscut through the specific traumatic fields, like the bio-technical faculty, for example, even the faculty of social sciences, but From the part of the natural sciences there was virtually non-existent interdisciplinary corporations.

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basically the nature of sciences tried to delimit themselves when it came to specific dramatic fields from the social sciences and do it on their own.

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So why is this important? Why is important to elaborate into disciplinarity according to these 3 levels that I that I try to show you, because the absence of presence of interdisciplinary scientific production within specific disciplines, institutions, automatic fields, shows whether in a specific geographical area, there exist as a creative ecosystem that supports.

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supports, cross-fertilization of knowledge or not? Does there exist an exchange of information that may lead to innovative breakthroughs or optimization of about information or not.

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Mit Ctl, and because in such a way you can identify in a geographical area, if you have the basis for producing the right. let's say, academic output that would help you with solutions, policy recommendations, and and so on. So if you have the right organizational networks that can produce effect for the whole community and for the whole system. 100 and

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well, the data that I presented to you on one side shows the increase in complexity of present production, of knowledge that tends to spatialize, aggregate around course, and on the other, the inability to produce substantial interdisciplinary cooperation between natural, technical, and social scientific fields.

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So there exist interdisciplinarity, but performer for the sake of the form, but not proactive. So the interdisciplinary is present within specific fields, but not across the whole spectrum of spatial sciences that would allow the product of more systemic, intent, interdisciplinary solutions.

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So when we come to specific traumatic fields or sub themes of spatial sciences. The gaps are even much wider, and point to absence of interdisciplinary. That should be, of course, further research.

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and I will conclude with this, and I hope you enjoyed and thank you for listening, and I believe we'll have a more fix to doing the discussion. Thank you.

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They so

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we In this session we take questions Directly, which I think I fail to say in the beginning, but I at least inform the presenters if I recall correctly.

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because that allows that we can actually ask some specific questions which I have to admit in your case. I have, I think, some specific questions. But let's open up the floor also online. If you have online questions. I would say,

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maybe write them in the chat, or just let us know.

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So we have a first question in the room. So let's just start.

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Hi! My name is now Ki from Japan, and thank you for really interesting presentation. I have 2 questions. the first is Oh, okay, you said, you have a study around 30 years of the in tip discipline. And my question, first question is, was there like a change within the 30 years? Maybe the growth of in in the disciplinary. And or or maybe you can.

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I point out to

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kind of boom and bust kind of thing. so something. What? Went on Boom. And then it collapsed to me. And yeah, that's my first question. And

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shall I continue to this? Okay? And this, my second question is, is it an institutional level of network? Or is it a personal network? And yeah, I mean you, the data is definitely institutional one. But I was curious if it was like, based on, like

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some personal personals that were

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really eager on interdisciplinary. I'm sorry, is it? Program. So that's my second question.

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Maybe it's easier if I reply to the second question first and then so basically, we identified on the basis of the key indicators that were inserted into the system within these databases that we found, because the databases are considered in such a way that when a person makes the Ph. D. He defines his field.

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So his field was, for example, social sciences. And then he changed the location. He maybe changed. He went working for another institution. But his basic indicator stayed with social sciences.

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So he stayed there. So because we knew that, for example, if a bio-technical Institute, for example, employ somebody from social sciences that that could be like a Trojan horse inside the institution, and and presenting, for example, nature of science. But in fact, he's a social scientist, for example. So we looked at this. let's say, indicators, which showed us, for example, 100

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erez Agmoni, who is from social sciences, who is from nature of sciences, and we are lucky because these databases allow this. So they allow this one.

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various indications of who is part of specific, let's say sphere of discipline or not, because we use the Udc system, which is the universal system which tries to distinguish 100, and

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in which, in which it's, let's say, in which discipline you belong to basically, and for the European Union, for those who are here from the European Union. They know that they use this decimal systems. Universal decimal system to put themselves in when they apply for projects, for example.

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So this is the system which we used because it's across the whole European Union and Slovenia being part of the European Union, we use the same system.

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And so this is how we distinct it. Let's say specific. So we use various layers of data. One were the keywords with which they operate when they write articles. The second was this, to whom the day to which institution they belong, because they might work in natural sciences. They might might work, for example, a chemical institute, but in fact, a social scientist.

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So we try. We. We were lucky that we were able to separate these 2 when it came to these. So this is why we use 3, let 3 at 3 layers, let's say, in this regard. And the first question, yeah, this is our next line of research, because we believe that we want to see the trend. We want to identify the trend where is going

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now? The first analysis that we are doing indicate that the trend is slowly opening to interdisciplinarity. There is no small gaps within the fields in terms of interdisciplinary, but we still have a long way to go.

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and I will again resort to the, if, I believe, because some of the let's say people here are from the European Union, for example, the European Union research programs, they largely try to invest into interdisciplinary cooperation.

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They force. So a scientist, in fact, to apply, for instance, my project and the into this planet is one of the basis. let's say, core teams when it comes to application to future research projects. And it seems that it's gaining some traction. But

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we are at the beginning of the process, because when we look at specific traumatic fields, I work a lot with smart cities, for example, and there is such a delimation between nature and social sciences

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that it's really it's really present. I know that from my own experience here.

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Yeah, thanks. I think we have a questions.

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I think we have someone in chat.

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oh, yeah, it probably makes sense. If. yeah, if I press the check, because that you can see. Question. So the question, thank you for your great presentation.

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I'm curious about why, in your opinion, collaboration does not seem to happen in reference to specific themes, as in the case of smart-city research. Perfect. Thank you, Alberto. I'm glad you asked that, because it's kind of my one.

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my field of study, and what I notice why it does not happen because they try to limit their area of interest, or they limit their area of interest from other. Let's say, scientific fields which are entering their domain

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because it all ends up

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in the field of financing. So it's all it's all about the money, and smart city is a typical area where there is a lot of financial turn. And the nature of sciences seem to be in great advantage because they work with infrastructure. They were with technical appliances the way we sincere.

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censorics they work with various digital shared economies, and they are technical products being produced within this field, 150,

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and they don't want to share at the moment, it seems. But this is just my presumptions with the let's say, with the specific fields or domains within the social sciences. So the risk operation. But the creation. Copper disk operation is slowly gaining traction because of this disciplinary

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borders, which are actually quite firm in this regard. Is it? Is it enough? I mean it. Was I enough how to say clear when it comes to this

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issue?

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I was thinking that I I quote from the chat. I was thinking the same pretendable research being less collaborative, but minus just a uniform speculation. Okay, so we have more questions.

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Yeah, thanks for the presentation. The visuals were very interesting to see the mapping.

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but I have a kind of reflexive question. One of your concerns was the tipping of of the technical over the social But the emphasis on cognitive measures is technical, not social.

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And so I wonder to what extent does this actually tell us anything about the social? But

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of course, let's say that the data are there. But the data are not.

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let's say. interpret it in the right way, because the data exists.

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But when it comes to data in this field. If you ask me if if I use the I think English maxima, there is no critical

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reflection of it, though there is. let's say that the reflexive capacity of the field to interpret this data is low, let's say, and this is why I think this data do represent because the data are there. It's just the data mining which is done

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erez agmoni you usually does not support. the interpretative schemes. I mean, this is how I would answer. But why, maybe, if I return the question, why do you think that the date are not accurate or the data do not support sufficiently the argument of accuracy. It's more than 150.

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A lot of it is performative. I mean, this is about Grant getting. It's about all kinds of things. So the box that you click through is

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is not really all that it appears on the surface.

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No, I completely agree with this, this is kind of an indication. More. let's say, definite conclusion. This is just let's say, to start to the the argument, does does this gap really exist. This is the thing, and I think it exists. But to approach it we need, of course, various more analyzes to do. But this is just, it's an assumption. And it doesn't use. Yeah, because we are basically

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our research team. And this was taken from the databases. But there is a parallel research team with which we cooperate that this interviews and quality of methods. So they interview the scientists from specific fields and so on. So this team operates with quality or research. And then, after a few years, we'll combine and make maybe or or triangulate various layers of data.

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Yeah, we are doing that. Yeah. So because we are a team of like, this was part of our research project that we got on the national basis. So the National Research Agency supported it.

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and the project is going on for 4 years. So at the end of 4 years we'll be able to since synthesize. But you're completely right in this regard. It is just one layer of data which.

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let's say, gives a

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a reflection of the gap. But we still need much more to identify the real gap. And why there exists, I mean, these are my assumptions. I completely agree that thank you for the question. You're right.

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if I may insert myself before we get to the next question. Maybe it's a naive question, because I'm more on the qualitative side. But I wonder if, like an easy

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fixed to address this concern would be to check reliability in terms of like extracting a selection, a random selection of scientists, and then basically check their their Cvs or their self descriptions and and see if it roughly lines up with the self categorization. You're doing exactly what the team is doing. Okay.

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it's so stupid. And you know what is funny, because I'm more of a qualitative side, too, because I'm not. I'm an urban society. So my field of study is more. I go to a terrain, analyze the urbanization and this kind of thing. So my field to study is city at no ethnography and this kind of stuff, but it's nice to, let's say, change a bit in this regard and

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approach is from from another perspective, which is also a discovery for me. But they're doing exactly what you're you're proposing. Yeah, sorry for you actually, 2 questions, or one technically one, because I'm I'm also not familiar with this kind of model. Is this model sensitive to size? I was wondering. So you you are talking about a very special kind of field in a small country a no offense. It's a nice country.

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but it, I would say, is in terms of possible relations in sciences. It's a small sample, so is the model robust against size, or would it? Would it be some other outcomes if you would take an account, for example, life sciences on a global level? Or is it so to say, so? Technical question and other one is more reflexive. Question. According

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so what Most formally said, we know on the institutional level, we can say, okay, we have something like a

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a normative isomorphism that interdisciplinarity is wanted for what reason ever? and on the practical level, we have something like grant writing and grant getting. And yeah, we apply as a into the smell team. And then everyone does it for for itself. But to get it reflexive?

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couldn't it be the other way around that Complex problems cannot be tackled by interdisciplinary teams because of differentiation, because we have so complex problems, in different and different disciplines, tackling so smaller portions of the problems. And this would be a kind of solution. So

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yeah. nice questions. So, really, I really like how you argumented the the problematics to the first question, yeah, we were searching for ways how to expand the research, because it would be much more interesting to see, for example, on the European level. And the problem are that the databases are not compatible.

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And this is the problem. So each kind of has his own type of databases which are not compared to each other. So, bug modeling in this regard. You would have to go an enormous extent and a lot of money to do it to to synchronize the databases at the moment.

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We don't. We don't have the financing to do it.

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But yeah, it is possible. just the problem is that For example, when I, when I said that we use this system that we when you do the Phd. It's entered into the database to which field you belong, and so on.

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There exist in some countries, but not all. So we should go. It's K-specific. This would be the best answer.

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So to do it on the European level at the moment it's impossible with the grand cities possible, where, when, if somebody's applying for a research projects, for example, but only at that. But that is more general, this is much more specific because each country wants to have more information on their scientists. So it's each country is much more specific. And also the levels. Specificity diff differs from one country to another.

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And so it is possible by the moment who who would synchronize this?

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It would be interesting for European Union, I think, for example, to to make this distinction, but to, or to see if this gap rate exists also on the general level, which I believe I do when, because when each of us goes to Brussels and sees on on its own hands how specific things

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are being prepared within the, in the strategic sense. within specific scientific fields, it might be. But this is just a personal impression. Let's say I cannot talk. Let's say, for the whole spectrum, this is pure assumption. Okay? But I would be interested to do it if you have any idea of how to do it. yeah. And and the second question

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 again. Yes. Whenever I am confronted with specific spatial problematics or specific urban planning problems or new urban developments which are being prepared

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data, this plan may represent a problem, of course, and there were various attempts to do it to open freely to, to interdisciplinarity. There are many experiments have been done within the in terms of governance in terms of a local community building, and so on. So there is a large selection of cases that which you would look at. But the main point is that yes, into this planet it has to be present. Why, but not the whole time.

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So there is temporality involved. So if you look at the double diamond structure, it's a re iterative process. So first you got in disciplinarity, but then you have to do something. So you narrow down the path, and then you open them again to see if they're right. So the ideal model of spatial planning would involve in the disciplinarity with limited spans of activation.

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That's it. That's a true nature. But it's difficult to prescribe this into.

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let's say, into a law or a real strategy. And

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we have so many urban planning traditions within the Europe. We have at least 6, 7 really strong. Urban planning traditions. You got the Anglo-saxon one. You get the German one. You get the Mediterranean what? It's very different.

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But each one yes, it needs inter disciplinary. It needs to first open the field and then shorten the field

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so, and then open the field shortly, but just to leave it without opening it. Then, at least, as I see it.

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it's not functioning too well at the moment, if we look at the general problems with which we deal.

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 but this is another discussion. I mean, we can talk afterwards about what is the right mode of doing things in when it comes to spatial sciences?

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 But there are specific models which are more successful than others.

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and it's been documented. And

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but I I'll stop here. But we can talk more. I agree with this. only leaving it to interdisciplinary, only opening the field. It doesn't work.

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Yeah, thanks. And we have another question.

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We do. Thanks for the great paper. I've been sitting here trying to think about how one might theorize what's going on here?

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 so what kind of bodies of theory 1 one could draw on to talk about disciplinarity and interdisciplinarity.

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And Unfortunately, the the name Lumen came to my mind. and other people might want to correct my kindergarten understanding of Lumen. But if you see a discipline as a a system of knowledge production, right? So the different disciplines are different systems of knowledge production, and then from women's perspective, you say each of them is self-referential

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and self reproducing right, so that the normal state of affairs is the complete absence of interdisciplinarity. And that's the nature of a system of knowledge production.

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But then he also talks about cognitive openness and structural coupling, so that from from that perspective what you're calling interdisciplinarity would be structural coupling.

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And then that would be how you would think about it. So there's just a a suggestion for what kind of conceptual framework you might be able to draw. Another one will obviously be a baju and and stuff about fields. But yeah, anyway, it was just a yeah, yeah, you you're. You're completely right. I mean, this is why I wanted to avoid the debate about what interdisciplinarity is in the beginning. And yeah.

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here we we go with the structural coupling. Yeah, it's true. And, as I said, I mean, it connects to his question. Because he he said, I mean, this is just a reflection of of the first problems. This, if we look at the ship, the first site of the problem that we are maybe encountering, and

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which, let's say, might

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have an important, it might have important consequences, because.

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The complexity is going on. I I believe we agree that the complexity of today's globalization trends is quite different from, let's say, from an era of 30 years ago. And this may be.

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looks it.

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I would say, like this that we need at least some kind of detecting mechanisms. And this is maybe one form of

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detective.

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the mechanism, if there is something there, but not more, not more. And then we can look into the self-referencing, and how the intensity, basically interdisciplinary, is even possible within specific sizes.

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because but

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I mean.

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for example, asked of physics goes way into philosophy. I mean we we could talk about that, I mean, is it philosophy, or is it astrophysics? I mean, it's some size, and I believe when when it comes to non sciences, or what? But this is another discussion. I mean, what is the basically the epistemology of a science? I mean, we could talk about. That is also a

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hmm. But that just reminds me of another thought that poked in my head as you were talking with when I try to. I mean, it's not really what you're talking about, which is ongoing research practice. But when I think about examples of work in one area having a strong influence in other areas.

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The kinds of works that do that

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are in it are, in a sense meta-disciplinary, right? So that they're actually not clearly located in any. And of course, philosophy does that kind of automatically. Anyway, it's yeah, it can transcend everything.

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But yeah, this is kind of like people like Giddens or or beck. I mean, in fact, the books that you mentioned

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in a way they they somehow sit above the disciplines that that they that they appear to originate in. So you're talking about meta-disciplinarity rather than interdisciplinary.

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But

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yeah, we could talk all about mathematics or trans disciplinary. Then it's another field. I mean, meta. We could go on for a long period.

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Yeah, then we have one last question by me. and well, it connects a little bit to to your comment. But so maybe it's 2 questions.

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so I my my master supervisor, I remember. Inhesive Lomanian! He always said, well, the the the problem with interdisciplinary to you is that for having an interdisciplinarity, you need strong disciplines.

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and that is what you can see is is that well, you have strong disciplines with their own debates, their own language, and even within the disciplines, like, I think, most people in the room, they barely talk to each other, and in academic discourse, like I to. To be honest, I think I never cited Dean, or Robert or Ronald, which is a Pd.

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Like it's it's I mean, it's obviously not personal. But it's like, because we we are usually in in other debates like you are in a lias. And I'm on Lumen and you can talk about that. But so so I I wonder if if part of of that is like

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this output part where we have our own debates on languages and coming to the geographical area. So now, the 2 questions actually is.

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and that's anecdotal from Germany. So I don't have research for anything. But I have seen. So in Germany you have a strong incentive in funding for basically, when you have a project on something technical to employ a social scientist as well to have like the social perspective. And it well, at least it's anecdotal. But it seems that the social scientists, colleagues that get into this project

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more or less kill their career.

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because then they publish in the technical journals, and the effect is that the the sociology departments. Then say, well, why should we give you a a tenure position? you're obviously not doing sociology. so that's that's the the one thing where one is is that something that might be an issue here? Yeah.

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I I know where you're heading to with with this question, because we have huge debates whether the discipline should be left alone to develop. So whether we should keep the border in order to develop discipline and keep the discipline

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because in the times of austerity now, I mean, if I look, for example, the British system is somebody from Britain. Here, for example, when, when when they virtually they were. They were closing down entire departments of sociology at some time. they are, and there is a big debate whether the discipline is as such is is getting how to say 150

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 it's losing its integrity, maybe in this regard. So we can think of this in 2 ways in 2 ways. One way is that we try

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to keep the disciplines, let's say, to produce specific forms of knowledge

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or the other is because what I see in my spatial sciences, because I feel I come from the field of urban sociology. I see that we are losing tractions. We're losing power within, we have less and less. I'd say, power when it comes to specific production of even practical implementations. So we see that we are

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erez agmoni we are slowly losing power because we we are not gaining traction. But this is on the general level within, I would say, within Europe, this is happening. So So the other line of thought would be, why shouldn't we maybe show the importance of specific disciplinary fields to other 150

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sciences which deal with space, for example.

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and with through that, in fact, reinforce the discipline itself, that it will gain importance, and also, for example, the capabilities to increase itself, to grow itself within. So there are 2 options. Either you go, either you, let's say, close the borders, or you actually open the borders and

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see what happens. There are 2 various approaches, or there is even a possibility that you first open and then you close. But at a certain point, I believe that

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we'll have to. I don't know to make some kind of changes.

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 yeah, I mean, it's basically it's impossible to give a solution on this.

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Yeah. And but maybe this is just my image.

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Yeah, just about the status of sociology.

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Sometimes in some ways it's as if sociology is a victim of its own success. So that one of the reasons it's losing traction is because sociological knowledge is disregarded as as stuff that we all know. Anyway.

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so what? So the other disciplines sort of feel like? There's nothing that that actual sociologists can add to it, because that they know it already. They know about the family, and

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you know.

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social structure, and I mean that they've all become kind of accepted ways of thinking about that, about things that's not the only reason, but that's 1 one part of it. So I don't know how we how we change that to sort of

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highlight. What's so distinctive about the way we analyze things sociologically.

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Yeah, I agree, there is nothing more practical than a good theory to.

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We are victims of our own success. I agree in that we are, let's say, too much, critically reflecting about

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the wrong doings within the systems and for which we pay the price. Then we have one final small comment, a very small comment, that in the 8 30 am. Session that we did that almost nobody came to, because it was too early. one of the things that we were trying to point out is how the the politics of this, due to new technologies broadly, has actually moved more into the technical domain.

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That's why it's hard for sociology to yeah, anyway. So but luckily there's a recording of that session. Yes. So which one was it.

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I'll tell you like, I think, in the at the end of the call at the end of the conference. So if you're interested, please watch the recording of that. Yeah. So I would say, thanks a lot.

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Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for the questions

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right? And then we have our second presentation.

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And I have to say, it's also nice where we actually have some time to discuss for once. So

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it's not

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all bad. Okay? And now I think I stop

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Alberto Lusoli: screen sharing, so I think you should be able to share your screen.

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Alberto Lusoli: I am sharing my browser. Oh, we can't hear him right.

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Alberto Lusoli: Ken. Can. Can you hear me?

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Alberto Lusoli: So unfortunately, we can't hear you chat, chat. Can you hear me?

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Alberto Lusoli: I am unmuted.

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It's headphones interesting.

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And I just okay. So that.

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That's probably

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what she didn't change my

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saying.

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Yeah, to come testing.

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Alberto Lusoli: I'm

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you hear me test?

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Yeah, that's it.

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Alberto Lusoli: Have check.

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is it working out?

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Alberto Lusoli: I am well.

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A.

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And can you speak again? I better.

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Alberto Lusoli: You hear me? I'm I'm I'm speaking now.

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so maybe I can get you

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Alberto Lusoli: louder. Okay.

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plug in

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Alberto Lusoli: check check. Can you hear me?

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Alberto Lusoli: People people are saying that? Yes, great.

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Alberto Lusoli: all right. So I'm gonna start my present. And so can you. Oh, wait. I can

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Alberto Lusoli: 1 s? Okay, so you're seeing my

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Alberto Lusoli: slides perfect, not notes, which I'm not using.

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Right?

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Alberto Lusoli: All right.

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Alberto Lusoli: is there a way you can minimize this? So first of all, good morning. I guess everyone.

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Alberto Lusoli: okay here.

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Alberto Lusoli: Oh, sorry. I have too many windows, and I can't understand how to move this zoom window around, but luckily you would have time. But I'll try to do it quickly.

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Alberto Lusoli: Okay.

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Alberto Lusoli: okay. There we go. Can you see my slice? Now, yeah.

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Alberto Lusoli: okay, good. wonderful. So my name is Alberta razor. I wish I could be there. We do today. But I burn through my travel funds already for this year. So the only option for me was remote option.

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Alberto Lusoli: I'm a Postdoc researcher at

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Alberto Lusoli: the Digital Democracies Institute at Simon Fraser University, in Vancouver, Canada, and when I use this moment also to acknowledge that the Sam of Fraser campus, from which

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Alberto Lusoli: joining today

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Alberto Lusoli: is located on the unseeded traditional territories of the coast of salish peoples, including it's Silva Tooth, coquitlam squamish and most crammed nations

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Alberto Lusoli: in today's presentation. I'd like to share and really to workshop a chapter from a

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Alberto Lusoli: forthcoming book that I'm working on on startup entrepreneurship and creative labor. the book is based on an ethnographic investigation of startup entrepreneurship.

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Alberto Lusoli: Did I conduct it here in Vancouver, Canada, between 2,014 and 2,019 but before we move ahead it's in the interest of

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okay.

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Alberto Lusoli: I was just on a

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Alberto Lusoli: like.

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Alberto Lusoli: make it clear. I'm not a sociologist, but for some reason, and again connects to the previous presentation. I always felt more at home at the Sociological Association Conference than the Communication Conference. So

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Alberto Lusoli: and today, I really want to tap into your no ledge to understand. How can I? What are the blind spots of my current chapter on on Occupational communities which is the the topic of my of my presentation.

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Alberto Lusoli: So now, in pure ethnographic fashion, let me start by Telling my story and the story of my research. So my research is all about, starts up entrepreneurship, especially in the creative industry in the creative industries.

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Alberto Lusoli: and the first time I encountered Startup entrepreneurship was in November of 2,014 at a hackaton organized by a Vancouver-based business incubator

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Alberto Lusoli: my teammates and I came together as we were all interested in understanding how technology could have been deployed to foster a democratic participation.

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Alberto Lusoli: And looking back.

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Alberto Lusoli: it's the incredible, how naive we wear when like to think that we could solve a problem like democratic apple fee for an app, anyhow. after 2 full days spent designing, developing, prototyping and user testing our online platform for civic engagement

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Alberto Lusoli: in the final day of the hackaton. We polished our presentation in our demo, and we pitched it in front of a panel of experts.

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Alberto Lusoli: Now, finally, enough, we even want to prices at that event, one of which, granted as access to an acceleration program organized by a local business incubator.

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Alberto Lusoli: and even though our project didn't develop any further participating to the hackaton and to the subsequent acceleration program, gave me a taste of of of life

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Alberto Lusoli: which I perceived at first as a fast pace, risk taking, and to some extent exhausting work culture so not not much different from academic career.

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Alberto Lusoli: The human geographer, Nigel Griffith, once wrote that capitalism is not just hardcraft. It's also fun. Well, startup entrepreneurship seem to offer exactly that to the people I met. namely, the possibility to experience the crazy vitality of capitalism

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Alberto Lusoli: as it became evident in the events that I handed over the course of my pornographic investigation that unfolded after that that serendipitous hackaton

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Alberto Lusoli: There were many reason why people were attracted to this form of of

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Alberto Lusoli: entrepreneurship, or of this way of working.

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Alberto Lusoli: playing the the startup game was not just a weekend past time for the stereotypical. Go getter

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Alberto Lusoli: young and ambitious entrepreneur

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Alberto Lusoli: attending startup related events. We're also freelancers, contract and gig workers, unemployed people, older professionals that maybe we're transitioning from corporate jobs to independent careers and even regular employees. We've stable corporate jobs.

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Alberto Lusoli: To most of these people start-up entrepreneurship offered them the possibility of dreaming a future as radically different from their present one, in which, instead of trading your time for money, they would use their skills to build scalable business models.

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Alberto Lusoli: And this was the case of any one of the participants I followed.

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Alberto Lusoli: He was an instructional designer in his thirtys who left a secure corporate job

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Alberto Lusoli: to embark on a career as a consultant. A freelance consultant, hoping to accelerate his career beyond the boring linearity of his corporate job

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Alberto Lusoli: to others, instead, start up entrepreneurship, represented an alternative to hostile corporate environments, preventing them from achieving realization, free work.

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Alberto Lusoli: And this was the case of Bianca, another participant. She was an education manager at a local coding boot camp. It's

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Alberto Lusoli: those institutions where they put you through like 2 weeks intensive coding

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Alberto Lusoli: programs. And she left her full-time position

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Alberto Lusoli: to embark on a career as a digital nomad after having hit the glass ceiling twice in her past corporate jobs

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Alberto Lusoli: to others instead, start up entrepreneurship represented the last resort before unemployment.

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Alberto Lusoli: These are the entrepreneurs by necessity as one of my participants, a labour activist, define them.

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Alberto Lusoli: Now, despite the profound differences, the people I met all seem to share a common orientation toward entrepreneurial labor.

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Alberto Lusoli: This is an orientation which sees start up entrepreneurship as an opportunity to escape the perceived predictable linearity of of regular employment

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Alberto Lusoli: by developing scalable systems of capital accumulation.

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Alberto Lusoli: So, and

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Alberto Lusoli: the book I'm working on I defined is shared orientation to work as the bootstrap worker the boost for worker recuperates and updates the liberal ideal of the self-reliant, entrepreneurial individual and offers it as a recipe for successful and unquoting lifestyle design.

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Alberto Lusoli: But everyone from skilled that workers to unemployed people, to young freelancers, to the reserve army of ghost workers working through or in digital marketplaces can enact and embody.

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Alberto Lusoli: The bootstra worker builds on previous of the entrepreneurial self, and I think the main influences come from Andrew Ross, Eron Fisher, gin on f. And

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Alberto Lusoli: so the boots of worker and and my

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Alberto Lusoli:  Thinking about this this subject position, or or professional figure I came to think of it as a restless figure.

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Alberto Lusoli: that that is, that tries to remain constantly open to, to jumping on new projects, or to pivot as they of often say, and and they try to continually create new opportunities for further projects.

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Alberto Lusoli: This need to stay flexible and agile at all costs justifies risk prone practices of self exploitation which are socialized as performative displays of a proper hustling work ethic.

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Alberto Lusoli: The boots or workers in doing so normalizes, precarrated in stability and frames that frames them as preconditions for self-actualization and economic and personal success.

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Alberto Lusoli: The result

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Alberto Lusoli: is a professional figure trapped in a state of perpetual becoming where self-actualization seems always one project away, but is never or rarely achieved.

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Alberto Lusoli: So, as you might imagine. From this

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Alberto Lusoli: erez agmoni, a brief description of of the Buster worker living the startup life comes with several challenges and downsides. So the first one is maintaining a a stable flow of projects, one.

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Alberto Lusoli: whether that means finding new clients or launching new business ideas. Bootstrapped workers constantly seek out for new projects because of the monetary values of these projects, but also for the opportunities that

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Alberto Lusoli: they create for future and larger projects. So in other words, a project begets projects The second challenge is skills development strictly related to the first challenge. So the bootstrap worker

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Alberto Lusoli: necessitate or need to update their skills constantly. Every new technology, every new software, every new social media platform, requires developing new knowledge and learning new skill then becomes a a a that bootstra workers satisfy

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Alberto Lusoli: sometimes or often, I would say, by engaging in new projects allowing them to tinker with new technologies. and the fur necessity that they have

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Alberto Lusoli: is the day expressed is is developing portfolios.

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Alberto Lusoli: participants shared the importance of assembling a portfolio of experiences in order to be able to gain credibility within the community as a an experienced entrepreneur, regardless of the success of past projects.

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Alberto Lusoli: So how do boots up workers cope with these issues? So if you're thinking

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Alberto Lusoli: unions you'll be disappointed. But I hope not surprised to hear that this is an environment that is rather impermeable to this form of organizing

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Alberto Lusoli: in recent years. at least, this is, of course, research that I did in Canada. Canadian unions have developed branches for freelance and independent workers. Which is

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Alberto Lusoli: the how

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Alberto Lusoli: puts up workers or startup entrepreneurs identify themselves, however, among the people I interviewed. No one of them was a member of these of these unions, and very few of them were even aware of their existence.

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Alberto Lusoli: now, despite the individualism of the Bootstraft worker, most of the people I interacted with told me about the importance of attending a professional meetings regularly.

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Alberto Lusoli: these are events organized by informal

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Alberto Lusoli: grassroots, organizations connecting workers with similar competences and professional interests.  often organize through the platform, meet up

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Alberto Lusoli: these meetings, blend elements of leisure and work, and provide people with opportunity to connect learning skills and start new collaborations.

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Alberto Lusoli: So, after having joined as a participant observer to several meet up groups here in Vancouver. I start thinking of them as occupational communities

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Alberto Lusoli: the term occupational community was introduced by organization scholars John Van Mannon and Steven Barley, and in the eighties in the outdoors define occupational communities as and I'm quoting, groups of people will consider themselves to be engaged in the same sort of work

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Alberto Lusoli: whose identity is drawn from their work, who share with one another a set of values, norms, and perspectives at that extent beyond work, and whose social relationship meld work and leisure.

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Alberto Lusoli: So the concept was later to polarized by Julian or in his ethnography of Xerox technicians or described occupational communities as informal gatherings of people with shared work culture so very close to the regional formulation.

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Alberto Lusoli: and or believe that these meetings or groups, groups could remediate to some of the limitations that people faced in their everyday jobs

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Alberto Lusoli: the occupational community. was a moment for Sarah's repair personnel to share experiences, and as a establish their position

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Alberto Lusoli: as skilled technician against the company's attempts at devolving their work.

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Alberto Lusoli: So I start thinking about meet ups as the modern counterpart of occupational communities, and wondering whether this new way to socialize through work

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Alberto Lusoli: could overcome the problems that faced by Bootstrap workers.

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Alberto Lusoli: So, and in a sense meet up, offered participants with plenty of opportunities to come together and to see each other as colleagues, and to empathize with each other's problems without asking them to put aside their differences and their sense of individuality.

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Alberto Lusoli: Each meeting was an opportunity to experiment and develop new ideas or side projects, either individually or in small grips. So this was very important. for developing portfolio of experiences, for for, for for instance.

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Alberto Lusoli: and lastly, meet up, offer participants the possibility to learn new technical skills at low or no cost participants, after often practice their skills through practical experimentation.

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Alberto Lusoli: and usually by developing new side projects which again contributed to their desire to have extensive portfolios.

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Alberto Lusoli: So

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Alberto Lusoli: the role of meetups. the the role that meet up played as as as location on communities was, however, problematic or or ambiguous.

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Alberto Lusoli: my experience as a participant shows how these informal meetings will help while helping individuals to cope with the consequences of an organization of labor inspired by roughly entrepreneurial culture Re purposes. Some of its central tenets as a solution to problems that this culture creates. In the first place.

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Alberto Lusoli: a case in point is how participants approached issues of skills, obsolescence, and portfolio building is opportunities for experimentation and business development.

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Alberto Lusoli: Indeed, his approach helped them to address their need to stay at the forefront of technological development. On the other hand, however, these efforts normalized expectations about bootstruck workers, willingness to engage in free and immaterial labor, which is selectively, if ever, compensated.

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Alberto Lusoli: or, again.

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Alberto Lusoli: in the way the imperative for group participants to remain open and ready to jump from project to project justified their conditions as precarious and flexible workers and frame them as necessary preconditions for professional growth and self-actualization.

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Alberto Lusoli: And lastly, and this was on one of the main issues I I experienced the volunteeristic and informal nature of of occupational communities

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Alberto Lusoli: while

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Alberto Lusoli: making the environment friendly or friendly looking does not always, allow systemic forms of discrimination to surface

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Alberto Lusoli: to the already overworked population of Bootstrap workers meet ups are as essential as expensive

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Alberto Lusoli: searching for relevant groups, participating to to events, contributing to grips and maintaining an active presence within the community. was not, was not just a matter of personal marketing or self-promotion.

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Alberto Lusoli: these are activities that Bootstrap workers must perform in order to be able to work and represent a significant investment of time and labor that not everyone was in the position to afford.

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Alberto Lusoli: So it wasn't surprising to realize that these meetings were attended by

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Alberto Lusoli:  people younger people predominantly without family commitments or other side jobs that prevented them from doing this kind of time investment.

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Alberto Lusoli: So

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Alberto Lusoli: can informal gatherings for tech workers. In my case, supplement the lack of unionization in sectors impermeable to traditional forms of organizing.

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Alberto Lusoli: Well, my answer is for for now is no. While this scattering are helpful they. They surely cannot supplement or or What? What traditional unions do.

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Alberto Lusoli: however, These forms of of of coming together were the closest form of professional self-determination that I encountered through my my investigation, and therefore I think it's worth continue investigating this this this form of informal informal organizing.

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Alberto Lusoli: So that's all I have for today, as I mentioned, I'll be happy to hear your thoughts from a

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Alberto Lusoli: sociology audience. How this connects with some of the things you do and

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Alberto Lusoli: and and how I can make this chapter more convincing. Thanks.

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Yeah. So we open up for questions again.

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Maybe a stand up and

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it looks a bit more sort of. I guess

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I can. Yeah. Great

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Hi, Roberto, can you hear me?

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Alberto Lusoli: Yeah, that was here.

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So my question is directed at the

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Why occupational communities? Because I see the meet up occupation communities as an entry point to the next level. So basically, I see them as as an an introductionary point from which you jump on to more specialized. So my question is, do they? Do they have the power to radically? let's say, transform the field.

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or are there just the let's say, the first step towards the real problematics which lies behind when they when they enter specialized communities.

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Alberto Lusoli: Yeah. thanks. Thanks. Matthias. yeah. No great great question. Thank you for for for asking it, I would say, meet up groups are for most of my participants. The first and only step into

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Alberto Lusoli: collective ways to

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Alberto Lusoli: think about their labor and think about the problems they face at their work.

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Alberto Lusoli:  But that does not. It's exclude the possibility for

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Alberto Lusoli: more organized

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Alberto Lusoli: forms of organizing which do not rise to the level of unionization, but remain in this limbo in between meet like informal meet ups and unions.

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Alberto Lusoli: There's One of the groups I followed here in Vancouver is called the Urban Worker Project. and this was born as a out out of a meetup, but then develop into a

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Alberto Lusoli: a group of mutual support for people with contingent labor gig worker freelancers, self self-proclaimed entrepreneurs. So there is a there's a chance to or a witness more structured forms of organizing.

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Alberto Lusoli:  yeah. But but that's I think that that that was the exception more than the norm. It's it's rather uncommon. And

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Alberto Lusoli: I can probably count examples of more organized groups.

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Alberto Lusoli: probably with just one hand. So probably I can. I can mention 5 or even less.

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Thanks a lot. And are there more questions? I mean, I also have

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a bunch of questions, but

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well, then, I mean, I might just just jump in. thanks a lot. This very interesting! Presentation it! it it.

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If for me, it connects a lot to to several debates discussions one can find in the field of Well, let's say, into organization relations or network research, or even meta organization research. So like the in different strands where we're like, I think you have a very interesting case of

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this form of organization between organizations that comes with with this Like. What it reminded me of is that you, this organization between organizations that comes without real actorhood.

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Apparently so. I I I would assume that, of course there is probably some some organizer of these events, but this organizer of these events is, is suddenly not like the organization that has, like the participants of the events as members, and would be responsible. So what we we can observe in meta organizations or network research is this question of

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diffusion of responsibility that we can often see. And and this reminds me a lot of this that you have some some kind of organization between organizations. Again, whether you call it a meta organization. But although they often you have an actor or a network, or whatever And one problem that comes with that often is that you have an absence of an actor that you can hold accountable. And then and this then opens up possibilities

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of discrimination, for example, because, yeah, then you discriminate. But you know, one is really responsible for that right? We just organize meetings. We are not responsible for who comes and who doesn't come, and so on. So I found this interesting, and this could be one.

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It's more common. it it could be, and A good angle and And I think this is an excellent case. And this also connects to I I put one study in the chat.

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10 years ago in organization studies about organizing spaces where the study conceptualized meeting arenas.

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as a hybrid between organization network and institution. So also dealing with this idea. Well, it is very organized.

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But it's also a lot of immersion stuff happening. so a lot of stuff as. And I just imagine that it probably just happens and also a network. And this creates the space where, yeah, it's a lot organization, but it's a lack of responsibility, and it opens up certain aspects and so on. So I I put it in the chat. It might be interesting to to to look at that. But yeah, I'm not sure if there's of this a question.

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Yeah, so. But this. this is what? what I thought that this is an excellent case. Of of this as well. So thanks for that.

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Alberto Lusoli: Another question, and then I'll share my comments later.

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Alberto Lusoli: But but you can comment, of course. Now, if you want to.

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Alberto Lusoli: it's it's very interesting. I I I was thinking about discrimination in the absence of a of a of an organization. And it's interesting. I was thinking, I think, in terms of absence of organization.

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Alberto Lusoli:  when I was thinking about meet ups through the occupational community. I was

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Alberto Lusoli: focusing on

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Alberto Lusoli: the lack of an organization on the employer side. So Julian Orr was studying Xerox.

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Alberto Lusoli: very. you know

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Alberto Lusoli: large corporation

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Alberto Lusoli: with. And so he, he was studying occupational communities as as bubbles within this corporation. That kind of resisted attempts to frame or devalue desk, the work of repair person.

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Alberto Lusoli: I never thought about the lack of

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Alberto Lusoli: a an organization on the participants side.

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Alberto Lusoli: so.

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Alberto Lusoli: and what that entails. So no, that's that's helpful it. It kind of

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Alberto Lusoli: shifts my focus to one area. I that I didn't pay attention to. So thanks.

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which which is, of course, absolutely fine just to mention that. But what what you just said, it's So in organization studies, you have a debate on organizationality. where you basically will talk about that. What makes organization has different dimensions. And one dimension would be this, like, well, the the structures you produce and the processes of decision making. And another one would be the actorhood

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and another one would be the identity. And and this will. It allows you to basically look at these different dimensions? separately. So Then then one organization would be very organizational in terms of like, well, it's it's an actor, and it has an identity. But maybe there's not much really organized in it.

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And then you would have an organization where there's a lot of structuring. But no one would actually see it as an organization. Yeah, so, but sorry. But we had a comment online, or it it seems to be withdrawn. But it's it's very welcome still.

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Shelley Yan: Oh, Hi, thank you, I'll be to I wasn't here for the entirety of the presentation. So if I miss something just

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Shelley Yan: forgive me And I am not working on this area. So just just take it as like first of all, I really like the concept of food stuff worker. I just think it's a really sexy like name. And it's really important if you do qualitative work to come up with, you know a name that people can remember, and I really appreciate that But, on the other hand, I was thinking, like

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Shelley Yan: maybe in the English language, the word entrepreneur. I guess it might be more diverse in terms of does it have to mean something like positive? Or could it mean because you also mentioned, like the definitely the precarious aspects of it, and if you are like a street vendor, you can.

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Shelley Yan: if you say you're an entrepreneur that might be very different than if you say, you know you're working for, and you're just

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Shelley Yan: the only one person doing some vending food, for example, or sandwiches, and that could be very different, depending on what's happening and what I'm thinking. And and it could be completely a different direction than what you've been working on. But what's happening these days in China and in the past in China, when we had

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Shelley Yan: in a early eighties, when we had like a

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Shelley Yan: the markets, transition is when when there was a huge layoff people from

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Shelley Yan: previously who are working in factories. Suddenly they lose their job. So there was always a government.

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Shelley Yan: you know, on mobilization. So through. For example, the most popular song at a time is that you shouldn't give up, and you should become an entrepreneur. And these days it's coming back again, and the Chinese people are extremely sensitive to this, like almost everyone knows what that means

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Shelley Yan: when the government says, and I'm not a critic of the government at all. But

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Shelley Yan: what I'm trying to say is that I am not really seeing, and I guess it's a different in tradition, because in the English language literature we tend to talk more about like at most unionization. We don't think about this as like the government fault that there are more people, you know, we're doing the. But I'm just saying that definitely in China these days, we're having a lot of.

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Shelley Yan: And everybody there is thinking that it is actually the government's problem, because the government is in a way responsible for providing these job opportunities and to adjust

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Shelley Yan: economics out of, I guess I'm thinking more from a political economy or macroeconomics point of view, and thinking about like the structural problems that are happening in our society that's pushing people to come to adults

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Shelley Yan: such a lifestyle, or to even

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Shelley Yan: celebrated. And in China we tend to think that if someone is celebrating it, it's because we are brainwashed to be celebrating it.

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Shelley Yan: but it seems like here. we're not necessarily thinking that way yet maybe in the future we will. So that this is just some kind of really tangential thoughts I had

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Shelley Yan: because and I I I didn't really see like

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Shelley Yan: more focused on like the context of what you're talking about, because a lot of what's happening here definitely sounds like what's happening in China. And and yet we definitely would think

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Shelley Yan: quite differently about we? We would think that that there is very problematic oppression going on here.

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01:24:39.250 --> 01:24:44.240
Shelley Yan: even when, especially for people who love the government because we think the government should protect us.

432
01:24:45.350 --> 01:24:47.280
Shelley Yan: Yeah, anyways, thank you.

433
01:24:47.350 --> 01:24:51.939
Shelley Yan: And and and great that very, very great presentation. Thank you.

434
01:24:55.280 --> 01:24:56.550
Alberto Lusoli: Well.

435
01:24:56.670 --> 01:25:26.289
Alberto Lusoli: Shelley, First of all nice to meet you, and thanks for your comments. I didn't mean to ask you if the name was a good one, because I I had very little confidence on the name Bootstrap worker. But thanks for the feedback. If that sounds okay, I'll stick to it speaking. And also thanks for bringing a known Western perspective on the concept of entrepreneurship. I just start reading right now the labor of reinvention by Zhang on entrepreneurship in China and the Taliban villages.

436
01:25:26.540 --> 01:25:32.710
Alberto Lusoli: chapter one. But I hope that will expand my my understanding of of

437
01:25:33.470 --> 01:25:44.880
Alberto Lusoli: of of of the concept of entrepreneurship beyond western North American focus.  about.

438
01:25:45.350 --> 01:25:47.190
Alberto Lusoli: yeah.

439
01:25:47.490 --> 01:26:05.000
Alberto Lusoli: the the the the the people I talked to they they. They claimed their, their, their role as entrepreneur. They they they inhabited that position that most of the time was was created by economic turmoil.

440
01:26:05.170 --> 01:26:29.570
Alberto Lusoli: I didn't mention that. But most of the people that I interacted with some of them were interpreters by by, by, by choice, and these tend to be older with safety net. and you know, transitioning to freelance work. because they can command higher, higher, higher salaries in this way. Higher.

441
01:26:29.650 --> 01:26:32.499
Alberto Lusoli: yeah, how your your your Saturday is,

442
01:26:32.840 --> 01:26:41.799
Alberto Lusoli: but many others are people that are pushed out of regular job. The research was conducted in Vancouver, Canada.

443
01:26:41.940 --> 01:26:47.209
Alberto Lusoli: and the city is known in the industry. Because.

444
01:26:47.380 --> 01:26:50.159
Alberto Lusoli: yeah, we have lots of

445
01:26:50.440 --> 01:26:57.430
Alberto Lusoli: post-production special effects industries. And this is mostly Hollywood offshoring

446
01:26:57.460 --> 01:27:01.870
Alberto Lusoli: part of their production in Canada because of tax benefits.

447
01:27:02.050 --> 01:27:13.219
Alberto Lusoli: The issue is that these industry is very fluid malleable. So whenever there's big productions.

448
01:27:13.330 --> 01:27:17.340
Alberto Lusoli: these companies hire. and when

449
01:27:17.500 --> 01:27:40.670
Alberto Lusoli: film and movies are are finally delivered and and and released lots of people are also released with the movie. So companies rely on an army of flex workers that that that work for these companies for short stints, especially during crunch time, the right before release. So and

450
01:27:40.750 --> 01:27:52.369
Alberto Lusoli: so the the, the, the people I I interacted with and and and that I followed. They claimed their position as as entrepreneurs of some sort.

451
01:27:52.410 --> 01:27:57.970
Alberto Lusoli: while a different reading could testify, or or could could

452
01:27:58.000 --> 01:27:59.970
Alberto Lusoli: qualify them as

453
01:28:00.370 --> 01:28:08.539
Alberto Lusoli: as precarious workers and industries that that that rely systematically on this kind, on this this form of contingent labor.

454
01:28:08.570 --> 01:28:16.799
Alberto Lusoli: So I think it's a very different way to inhabit the entrepreneurial position compared to to China

455
01:28:17.360 --> 01:28:20.620
Alberto Lusoli: And and here, definitely the fact that

456
01:28:20.820 --> 01:28:27.189
Alberto Lusoli: they saw themselves as startup entrepreneurs. People were not unemployed. People were, you know, building the next

457
01:28:27.730 --> 01:28:31.280
Alberto Lusoli: system or the next business model. So

458
01:28:31.810 --> 01:28:38.030
Alberto Lusoli: they. They. They didn't describe their position as as flexible workers, but but more as an

459
01:28:38.040 --> 01:28:40.000
Alberto Lusoli: entrepreneurs.

460
01:28:41.590 --> 01:28:43.429
Yeah. And we have another question.

461
01:28:44.290 --> 01:28:53.189
It's just a quick comment. I put in the chat to you, a link to an article on Hope Labor.

462
01:28:53.630 --> 01:29:09.999
and it looks at the cultural workers in the northeast of of England. And I thought, you know, that might be something worth looking at to, because you said you were looking for how to furnish

463
01:29:10.090 --> 01:29:24.999
the the Bootstrap worker. So that might be one way to think through some of these issues that connect government. And you know, freelance work or whatever. So it's just a comment. Really.

464
01:29:25.890 --> 01:29:31.829
Alberto Lusoli: no, thanks. That. That's that's why I'm here. yes, definitely helpful whole

465
01:29:32.580 --> 01:29:35.170
Alberto Lusoli: labor. Yeah.

466
01:29:37.140 --> 01:29:38.510
Alberto Lusoli: nice. Thanks.

467
01:29:39.380 --> 01:29:44.340
Thanks. So have we more questions.

468
01:29:46.410 --> 01:29:48.810
I have one more.

469
01:29:49.190 --> 01:29:54.120
Well, then, I put myself on the list again. so

470
01:29:54.150 --> 01:29:57.120
one question I had is.

471
01:29:57.200 --> 01:30:24.730
I've I've found it very interesting, this so you point out this this team. they're restless. And then they like, they have this challenge of the project flow and the skills development and the portfolio building. And then basically, these these meet ups. If I understand it correctly, they address this right? they, they more or less address these challenges. So my question would be rather

472
01:30:25.310 --> 01:30:43.999
how much? is basically is, if are the meet ups addressing these needs? And how much do the meet ups, repute, use, and create these needs? Actually in in the in the first place. So and like thought in in terms of a recursive process, maybe.

473
01:30:44.220 --> 01:30:45.590
Alberto Lusoli: Yeah, no.

474
01:30:45.890 --> 01:30:52.819
Alberto Lusoli: What's the expression? You hit the nail on the head is that you're ready? Yeah, it's

475
01:30:52.960 --> 01:31:00.239
Alberto Lusoli: That's that's exactly what I what I'm trying to point they do address the problem of people

476
01:31:00.390 --> 01:31:13.420
Alberto Lusoli: needing more projects on their portfolio, more experience under their belt up to date skills. The problem is the way which these meetups do. It is through

477
01:31:13.790 --> 01:31:17.799
Alberto Lusoli: sacrificial labor. So people who can

478
01:31:18.480 --> 01:31:24.800
Alberto Lusoli: work extra time, people who can invest their time

479
01:31:25.090 --> 01:31:27.300
Alberto Lusoli: can can

480
01:31:27.640 --> 01:31:45.639
Alberto Lusoli: get these experiences update these knowledge and and meet ups, create the conditions for doing it and into it. And they're very efficient. People with sense. Similar needs and technical skills come together and learn from each other exchange experiences. It's all wonderful and great

481
01:31:46.030 --> 01:32:06.140
Alberto Lusoli: until you can write or live this kind of lifestyle. The problem is not everyone of the people I interacted with isn't a position to afford to attend this meetings because they are after the regular They are usually at night during weekends early in the morning. There's coffee

482
01:32:06.300 --> 01:32:10.939
Alberto Lusoli: I can networking coffee in the morning. So

483
01:32:11.450 --> 01:32:19.390
Alberto Lusoli: Not everyone in this in the position to attend, and that's where I think what you were telling what you were saying previously about

484
01:32:19.410 --> 01:32:20.590
Alberto Lusoli: the

485
01:32:20.690 --> 01:32:26.349
Alberto Lusoli: informal nature and the lack of responsibility really makes these

486
01:32:26.460 --> 01:32:31.170
Alberto Lusoli: inequality is a surface.

487
01:32:32.830 --> 01:32:34.510
Yeah, thanks

488
01:32:35.160 --> 01:32:36.120
done.

489
01:32:38.930 --> 01:32:43.660
So we don't have any questions or comments anymore. I believe.

490
01:32:44.020 --> 01:32:47.460
So then

491
01:32:47.910 --> 01:33:00.629
I guess it's up to me to let's know. Oh, yes, I will go here. Yeah, that's the so. Then I guess it's up to me to say, Thank you.

492
01:33:02.240 --> 01:33:11.230
We almost lost the microphone. Sorry? So then it's up to me to say, thank you to our 2 presenters today for 2 very interesting presentations.

493
01:33:15.100 --> 01:33:42.569
And yeah, I hope you also enjoyed the discussions as much as I did. And yeah, please, of course, be aware of our other our C. 17 sessions to come. For example, today, 2 more sessions on how organizations make people. And please do also take note of our R. C. 17 journal, the Journal of Organizational Sociology, which is a a great outlet.

494
01:33:42.570 --> 01:33:55.720
For the stuff, maybe also for the stuff we heard here today. And with these words I would say, thank you again also for joining us. And yeah, enjoy the rest of the conference day.

495
01:34:00.300 --> 01:34:01.000
Yeah, thanks.