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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: I guess, Of course, it's a world high. And I'm glad to

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: that. We have established a good connection. Okay, I can't hear you. Oh, I can.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: Can you hear me now.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: Okay, okay, okay.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: okay, Yes, I I was saying, I'm happy. We can, We establish a good connection.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: And well, the name of this session is. If, as the title says also, so it's a cybernetic perspective. power.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: It's just about a describing some of the the mechanisms that work in in this a

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: systems that a

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: particularly the articulations between the different systems as as power relations. So we have a I see we have a.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: as you, said A. The last a presenter is, is not

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: it's not here, so we have 3 different presenters, The first one will be Michelle.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: We that he will say.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: Tell us about this, a nomenclature as discipline, disciplinary and modulatory power. that which I find very interesting. It is

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: We also, I I have also been doing this kind of a

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: work on a drawing on the Lewis and and what there is. So I I think it's a really interesting to look at this modulatory power. Then we will have a

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: Fernando that I think he's in a Melbourne.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: So, He's speaking about a social stability and and social change. So also very interesting, With the reference to to some and Ruman and of the Poes, his theory.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: So a. It would be a very interesting to here also, Fernando.

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: I just love that, and I had the opportunity to

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: to meet him in Toronto, I think 2,018. So it's a pleasure to

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: to meet again, and he will be speaking about morning. Right? So I let let's see how

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: it also that can be related to to power, and a well, that that is the aim of of this session, and I hope we have a a great discussion

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: after the presentations, and thank you, Saburro, for for being there and and connecting with us

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JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: like we can't hear you. So

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Mikael Kivelä: the podium is muted.

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Sorry. Sorry. Can you hear me. Okay, so the the this movement makes it first presenter, Mikai. And are you ready? You do have. Yes, I can share my screen. Do you hear me all right.

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Yes.

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So the 20 min space.

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if you don't know.

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Mikael Kivelä: Okay, you should be seeing

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Mikael Kivelä: my presentation now, with the title to make sure, and so forth. Is that correct?

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Mikael Kivelä: Yes, excellent. So I'll continue.

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Mikael Kivelä: yeah, there's some interesting

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Mikael Kivelä: interference from the rule. Mic, but no problem whatsoever.

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Mikael Kivelä:  Good afternoon. Everyone. Thank you for having me here to present

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Mikael Kivelä: and please do interrupt or cut off my

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Mikael Kivelä: screen, share or otherwise.

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Mikael Kivelä: Tell me something is wrong. If something is wrong, please.

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Mikael Kivelä: I'm trying to

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Mikael Kivelä: interpret the worried faces of so Google and the other person. But okay.

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Mikael Kivelä: we'll continue. So.

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Mikael Kivelä: As I was saying, I'm very glad to be here.

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Mikael Kivelä: and

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Mikael Kivelä: for your convenience, there's a few our code and

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Mikael Kivelä: short link, if you want to look at the presentation on your own device.

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Mikael Kivelä: it doesn't. The Pdf doesn't contain all the material I might present since we have more time. but at least.

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Mikael Kivelä: and the complex stuff and the references, and

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Mikael Kivelä: so on.

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Mikael Kivelä: And this morning I realized, and that if I would retitle my presentation

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Mikael Kivelä: it would be

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Mikael Kivelä: yay, hmm! No, you should be seeing

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Mikael Kivelä: not all title slide, which is authoring guides as disciplinary and modulatory

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Mikael Kivelä: power over a social arrangement. Something's missing there.

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Mikael Kivelä:  So I'll be talking about

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Mikael Kivelä: mostly about writing guides as a way of controlling things.

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Mikael Kivelä: and the larger framework for my work is that I've been interested in non-traditional learning spaces as attempts to influence pedagogy

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Mikael Kivelä: so way of

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Mikael Kivelä: no communicating that this is what you should be doing, or could be doing

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Mikael Kivelä: as teachers.

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Mikael Kivelä: So in low money and terms, I think that would be pedagogical communication about pedagogical communication. So somebody

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Mikael Kivelä: that takes the position that they know better, and they try to influence the state of matters

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Mikael Kivelä: via communicating

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Mikael Kivelä: that this is what you could be doing

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Mikael Kivelä: this presentation. I'll take examples

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Mikael Kivelä: about the project

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Mikael Kivelä: which is ongoing and

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Mikael Kivelä: my work on it. It is ongoing as well.

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Mikael Kivelä: But the project price conceptualize multi-use learning spaces and other kinds of learning spaces and services.

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Mikael Kivelä: and it tries to establish a shared terminology

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Mikael Kivelä: within the one university. It's working in.

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Mikael Kivelä: Concerning learning spaces. And

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Mikael Kivelä: for reasons we talked about with Ches love before this presentation.

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Mikael Kivelä: the hybrid, flexible kind of participation we are

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Mikael Kivelä: experiencing right now in this session is of particular interest.

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Mikael Kivelä: and the project also tries to make it easier for teachers to get the kind of spaces that should be suitable for the activities they want to do in those spaces.

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Mikael Kivelä: But let's see what happens.

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Mikael Kivelä: And here are some of the central concepts, and I've been throwing on. and the numbers of references in the reference list, which is the last slide in the presentation.

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Mikael Kivelä: and the so as

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Mikael Kivelä: who already kindly said that it's mostly

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Mikael Kivelä: growing on from the work of.

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Mikael Kivelä: But there is also

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Mikael Kivelä: some Nicholas Lumen involved, especially since

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Mikael Kivelä: I've tried to use Lumen as a counterbalance or another perspective on

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Mikael Kivelä: on things.

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Mikael Kivelä: And the only concept I'd like to unpack at this point is

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Mikael Kivelä: the one I feel it's the most slippery is the arrangement in French

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Mikael Kivelä: often translated as assemblage in English.

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Mikael Kivelä: and

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Mikael Kivelä: I'll just read this one allowed so fitting form and content, form of content and form of expression together

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Mikael Kivelä: requires a whole organization articulating for master formations of power and regimes of signs.

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Mikael Kivelä: and operating on the molecular level societies. Director, as by what full call calls disciplinary power.

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Mikael Kivelä: So we'll go into a practical example of this.

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Mikael Kivelä: But

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Mikael Kivelä: on the side, note, the concept of arrangement of our assemblage is

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Mikael Kivelä: something that

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Mikael Kivelä: I I have problems with, despite working with it for

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Mikael Kivelä: the or 10 years or so. So, if you have other perspectives or

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Mikael Kivelä: remarks, I'll be very happy to hear them.

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Mikael Kivelä: But what I'm asking

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Mikael Kivelä: about things. What the project is doing is how that's the way of things are being put into relation, as so called multi-use space work.

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Mikael Kivelä: and to some extent, who or what benefits?

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Mikael Kivelä: And let's take a look at the definitions or

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Mikael Kivelä: condensed form of the disciplinary and modulatory power. Some of the characteristics

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Mikael Kivelä: and the number at least, are mechanisms that would be characteristic to disciplinary and all modulatory power.

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Mikael Kivelä: They, I've added the numbering. It's not in the original. David Subots text

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Mikael Kivelä: just to make the list stand out a bit more.

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Mikael Kivelä: And now you should be seeing a colorful

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Mikael Kivelä: chaos of the lines and

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Mikael Kivelä: circles which is a

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Mikael Kivelä: what one visualization

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Mikael Kivelä: of the

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Mikael Kivelä: users of resources and resources

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Mikael Kivelä: in the universe this project is working on.

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Mikael Kivelä: and

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Mikael Kivelä: I think it's also a map over

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Mikael Kivelä: arrangement.

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Mikael Kivelä: the articulations of power or the formations of power. Excuse me and regimes of signs.

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Mikael Kivelä: In other words. It's not a description of how things are. It's a formalization

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Mikael Kivelä: of how things should relate to one another.

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Mikael Kivelä: And it's based on the matrix of this relations created by 2 persons in the project. But since this is not

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Mikael Kivelä: very easy to follow in any way, let's experiment a little bit.

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Mikael Kivelä: So if we filter it. Just what a teacher and student should be doing

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Mikael Kivelä: in this formalized thing.  we have the teacher in pretty much the center

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Mikael Kivelä: and the pinkish

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Mikael Kivelä: small circles with titles are the different resources.

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Mikael Kivelä: and

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Mikael Kivelä: mostly they are guides.

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Mikael Kivelä: So they are instructions of how things work.

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Mikael Kivelä: what to certain policies are.

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Mikael Kivelä: And I would say that

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Mikael Kivelä: this takes all the boxes of disciplinary and

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Mikael Kivelä: modulatory modes of power.

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Mikael Kivelä: So to some extent it's a distribution of individuals in space

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Mikael Kivelä: they have some control over it.

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Mikael Kivelä: For example, they can choose whether they want to use moodle or flea or other, some other software  and the instructions contain

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Mikael Kivelä: ideas, how the activities should go or could go. So it's both control of activity and anticipation of activity. The organization of a genesis

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Mikael Kivelä: is trying to

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Mikael Kivelä: organized production of something useful.

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Mikael Kivelä: whether it's course tasks or

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Mikael Kivelä: carrying out and organizing, teaching, or whatever. and comp composition of forces, is that you try to

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Mikael Kivelä: make the things work as a multi segmented whole, I think, was how Michelle Foc described it.

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Mikael Kivelä: But since we have more time, I think I could go to a

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Mikael Kivelä: more detailed examples, at least one or 2. And

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Mikael Kivelä: before that. let's take one more thing about this links between the resource users and resources.

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Mikael Kivelä: I want to show you this because this is

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Mikael Kivelä:  that I filter it out. All the links that are not from one.

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Mikael Kivelä: One group of people

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Mikael Kivelä: like teachers or students or the educational technology services from another group. So in practice.

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Mikael Kivelä: teachers contact the educational services and technology services or the audio visual services every now and then, but in the arrangement, the formalized way of looking at things, how things should be.

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Mikael Kivelä: how how they are. There are no links. so

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Mikael Kivelä: I think, or it, the Pret. This means that

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Mikael Kivelä: the optimal situation according to this formalization, would be that

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Mikael Kivelä: everybody reads the guides

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Mikael Kivelä: because they are quite handy in ways we'll see and does not. does not connect

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Mikael Kivelä: the other persons at all. I may have a misunderstood something, I hope I have, but

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Mikael Kivelä: based on this formalization. I find it rather peculiar that this is the case.

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Mikael Kivelä: And How are we doing with the time?

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Mikael Kivelä: I'm not quite sure when we exactly started.

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Mikael Kivelä: Oh, you'll let me know.

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Mikael Kivelä:  so let's take a look at the materials the project produces. Okay.

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Mikael Kivelä: yeah, this is the kind of material and the produce project produces.

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Mikael Kivelä: So it has photos, or

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Mikael Kivelä: But I it rems of the spaces. and some instructions, some recipes.

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Mikael Kivelä: What should be there? What you could be doing.

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Mikael Kivelä: And

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Mikael Kivelä: if we go to some tentative analysis, some connections. The interesting bit to me is the one I've highlighted with with blue.

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Mikael Kivelä: because I see it as a distribution of individuals in space.

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Mikael Kivelä: because it has this proposition that

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Mikael Kivelä: the space is organized in a way to facilitate group work.

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Mikael Kivelä: and then it has the control of activity. So perhaps you should do group work

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Mikael Kivelä: the organization

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Mikael Kivelä: of the process.

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Mikael Kivelä: So first you work in a group and then you move on

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Mikael Kivelä: to putting together what the groups have achieved.

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Mikael Kivelä: And this, I see, is also the composition of forces.

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Mikael Kivelä: And if we look at the images.

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Mikael Kivelä: and this is more, I think, the way the spaces themselves are put up. Not just the instructions, but what's also present

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Mikael Kivelä: in the images of the spaces. and

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Mikael Kivelä: because we talked briefly about or mentioned Miss Michel Foucault, there is the pan optical idea that

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Mikael Kivelä: you are being observed from the outside. There is always the potential potential of being observed.

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Mikael Kivelä: So there are glass glass walls, large windows.

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Mikael Kivelä: and I would say that there is also the in closing your enclosed in the space. Perhaps you're also enclosed in a smaller space within the

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Mikael Kivelä: set of spaces, or you're in a group.

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Mikael Kivelä: and this perhaps in some way liberates you from the larger group

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Mikael Kivelä: gate.

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Mikael Kivelä: So I think this is pretty common to all physical spaces that it it affects our effects to as the distribution of individuals and space.

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Mikael Kivelä: and to certain extent controls the activity

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Mikael Kivelä: via the acoustics, the furniture.

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Mikael Kivelä: the other lay out of the space, and so forth.

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Mikael Kivelä: And if we go to the modulation side

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Mikael Kivelä:  I would argue that there is.

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Mikael Kivelä: There is some observation before the fact, some simulation

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Mikael Kivelä: in the way that this is way out. Space could be or should be used. 5 min. Jolly good.

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Mikael Kivelä: And

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Mikael Kivelä: then I'll because of the 5 min mark I'll just move on the debt

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Mikael Kivelä: which I think is very common place to

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Mikael Kivelä: all complex technical things.

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Mikael Kivelä: And if you read the

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Mikael Kivelä: read the

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Mikael Kivelä: presentation instructions for this conference. there is also that that before the conference you should prepare this and do that. And if you are not familiar with Zoom, you also do this update that

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Mikael Kivelä: this is what I mean by that

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Mikael Kivelä: and

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Mikael Kivelä: I'll just continue with the depth.

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Mikael Kivelä: and I think

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Mikael Kivelä: basis

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Mikael Kivelä: by no means yet, product of rigorous analysis

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Mikael Kivelä: that the way the group these kind of rooms are put together.

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Mikael Kivelä: the way they avoid sort of a mode or model like you would have in

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Mikael Kivelä: Sorry. I'm losing words in English, and am 5 theater lecture theatre, which has a

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Mikael Kivelä: fixed furniture, a very fixed purpose in many ways.

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Mikael Kivelä: that, and there is increase in depth what you should do to prepare to use this room, what you should learn to

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Mikael Kivelä: use what you should update these kinds of things, but I think I'll end here.

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Mikael Kivelä: and you'll find the references in the

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Mikael Kivelä: into material. Thank you so much.

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Mikael Kivelä: Here we go.

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No.

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so the

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so do you have any comments or questions?

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Insights?

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 I have a question. You may, may I?

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I? I can hear you

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Czeslaw Mesjasz: for me. I have a problem, because

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Czeslaw Mesjasz: now I'm fascinated by the problem of poly semi of terms and the role of linguistics in studying complex systems, sustainability, etc.

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Czeslaw Mesjasz: You said so many minutes that for me I have one question, that you are mixing up semantics with spatial ordering. Also, how?

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Czeslaw Mesjasz: What is the how would you explain this? The they would have the advantages of me of mixing up the semantic approach with space of order. What? What is expected? What do we expect from this?

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Czeslaw Mesjasz: It is clear.

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Mikael Kivelä: Hmm. yes, thank you for the question.

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Mikael Kivelä: I'm trying to digest it. And

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Mikael Kivelä: the way I understand the question is that and why I'm going to employ the work of

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Mikael Kivelä: that. Try to look at the mixtures of all kinds of things. They start from linguistics.

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Mikael Kivelä: this

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Mikael Kivelä: analyzing the arrangements from Louisiana. But

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Mikael Kivelä: but let's say. at this point the

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Mikael Kivelä: the benefit is experimentation.

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Mikael Kivelä: So what could I find by mixing these 2 things? Obviously, I'll find some problems

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Mikael Kivelä: that what I end up with. What are they? Incommensurable?

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Mikael Kivelä: But that's

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Mikael Kivelä: that, would be the short answer. Perhaps in 5 or 15 min I

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Mikael Kivelä: I can cook up a better answer, but that would be the immediate immediate reaction. Thank you.

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Czeslaw Mesjasz: Okay, thank you.

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Okay. Any other questions or comments.

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How do you say? Oh, wait a moment

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so he can see me

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because

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I can

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there watch a camera. Ok, thank you. Hello, Michelle. Thank you very much for your presentation. A very interesting reflection on space. And I'm naming

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I was

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I I read your your abstract

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and in relation to social cybernetics and the concepts of social cybernetics, for example, reflection, and so on. What? What are the concepts that you are more attractive to

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to relate to with your work, I mean, is there some space for

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second order, observation, and reflectivity. I mean not. I understand your proposal as a reflection on how the space can be observed by other

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a position of control. But what about self observation of the learning groups

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of the groups that are using those space? What what ideas do you think you could drive from there. I don't know if

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my my question makes sense.

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Mikael Kivelä: yes, thank you. I think it makes sense. Unfortunately, I don't have a

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Mikael Kivelä: very in the but what I would be interested in at least is, and that

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Mikael Kivelä: how they. the groups

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Mikael Kivelä: of students, let's say, or anyone using the space. how they observe how the space

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Mikael Kivelä: affects them, or the arrangements of power and space or the space is one

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Mikael Kivelä: one expression of them.

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Mikael Kivelä: how they feel being affected by those things, and their observations and reflections

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Mikael Kivelä: on that. And Secondly, I would say that the sort of sales reference, what they include

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Mikael Kivelä: in what they see as

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Mikael Kivelä: the system, the relevant bits for whatever they are doing or trying to achieve.

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Okay, thank you very much.

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This

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you can

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any other comments or questions.

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So now then, there we have, general discussion after 3 years

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for the patients. So thank you for.

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So let's move on to next presenter professor, you know.

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Please.

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Okay, so

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good evening, everybody. It is a great pleasure to be here with you. Good evening as well to those online.

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In my paper I present a theoretical development

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that tries to describe how the self self-referentiality of communication grounds society, its evolution both in the cases

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a of stability and change in society.

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This is a macro level theoretical reflection.

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and

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maybe let us let us start by this

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by this passage with almost 100 years

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from a Yakobux school, a philosopher of biology, as you, as you know.

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he commented. The dog world that our only dog sings.

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Okay, all right. Thank you.

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So in the human world there are only human things.

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Mr. Schultz will only encounter short things, and never mind things, and and so on.

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This passage, I think, and

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highlights an important aspect of human indeed, of life, self-referentiality, which is a a key aspect of this reflection of mine.

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and

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the theoretical framework in which I buy these these.

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This reflection, this research tries to frame self-referentiality, self-referential communication, as ontology of the social

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I work the With the lumens, Theory of society, namely, is reflection on the see, the building of the systems boundary through communication, That is notion of thing, probably in probability of communication yet working and using Lumen's notions.

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I think I departed somehow from his notions, because I use them in a more outside a conventional way. A. Because I link the the communication to a people behind him, which is something that Lumen did not do in such a

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easy way. But in order to do that I use that other authors, namely, Eidegers, Philosophy of the Humans.

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and the

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I together in his philosophy, in his philosophy, in his Phenomenology of Human acts really considered a self-referentiality as essential to the kind of being we are.

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That sign is a self-conscious self-reference of being at an essential level.

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and I think this will help very much the kind of work I'm trying to do

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I am trying to use as well as well some notions from the self-reference of life.

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autonomy and perturbation from Marana, the Maturana, and Vrella, the auto pianist's theory, some ideas on the surroundings and the environment, particularly the distinctions between surroundings and environment that's introduced by Yaakov Wake school

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and the notions of the constitution of the self

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using, Georgia? Red me the language else and self referential, And the recursive mechanism and the work of core values, even the notion of observation and the constitution of reality that goes back to to the early days of quantum physics, and so on.

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This I try to build a theoretical framework, using all of these authors, and outside particularly the first 3, 3 ones are the ones that I mostly used.

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Self-referential. A self-referential system leaves for itself, as we know, be it a person, a cell, a group, or an organization at the fundamental level. All communications are self-referential, because they, emphasizing the boundaries of of a system.

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Each system.

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or each subsystem relies on a key distinction

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on a key distinction that actually makes the world simpler. So in a society there are several 10 standards of social sub-social systems.

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Each one relies mainly on on a key distinction. To make the work simpler. Like the family systems.

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the distinction is

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being part of the family or not being part of the family, the media systems. Is it a new? Is it news or not? News?

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The political system being elect on on elect, the legal system, legal or illegal, the economic system generating a profit or a loss, or it is an abnormal abnormal profit.

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the education system to pass or file, and so on. So all systems. Communications are self-referential, relying and emphasizing this key constitutive distinction.

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One of the effects of this, as a.

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as we we know, are that people within each subsystem generate more understanding among themselves than people in different social subsystems.

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So.

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and

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social subsystems provide a stable menu stable me medium in which the the multi-cellular organisms, like persons.

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can live in a stable way, just as a multi-celled organisms

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like we are provide a more stable environment for the cells. Now, this function of each subsystem in society as an external effect. and this external effect, I will argue, is to contribute to the stability of the subsystem in society

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to the stability of societies itself.

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At the same time it enhances the complexity of society, and it makes the communication between subsystems the key fundamental challenge of contemporary of contemporary societies.

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So a devolution of society

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in time, the social 6 systems functioning, emphasizing the key distinction, the key distinction. looking for making it, for calling it for looking for people's attention.

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Last, 2 behaviors that tend to avoid the negativity of distinctions.

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social subsystems.

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they constitute themselves as so self-referential, correcting mechanisms for the stability and long-term survival of society. So one can say that

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in the social system, in society the the the, the the sub-social systems, contribute to the stability of so of society. In this way, for instance, through time.

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the more scandals in society the news media find, the less scandal it will. It will happen in the future, or it will, it will contribute to diminish that that stream of news, the more illegalities today, the less illegalities in the future.

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the more losses today, the less losses today, the more failing today, the less failing to die. That is, the more distinctions in the subsystem

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today. the more stability of society. A.

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This contributes to the stability of society and to its evolution, to its evolution and change.

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and continue to this change. But in a more regular way

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there are, yet there are other.

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So the stability of society relies on the functioning of each subsystems.

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Yet there are more 7, and the abrupt abrupts, and I would say, clear and changes in society.

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I try to classify the social change within this, this, this theoretical framework as either paradigmatic changes or systemic changes.

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Okay.

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let's look first to the parent. paradigmatic changes

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are the ones that keep the system. The system keeps on working. That is, the subsystem keeps on working as it is. Yet some some of the meanings change.

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and

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in paradigmatic changes.

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when there is change, so subsystems enter a questioning phase, a phase of discussion.

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of tension, of augmentation of violence in some cases, and this can be a sudden, abrupt, or or can last for for for for longer times.

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for instance.

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 smoking is now that is illegal in many places. Long ago it was legal all over the place. This is a pragmatic change. The system. Illegal legal

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stays the same, but the behavior change it

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like. In some countries political parties were illegal now are legal or the other way around. These are paradigmatic changes as well.

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Yet one can say that in the example of the

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the political systems of political parties that were illegal, and now are legal, or, on the contrary, at the

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at the level of the sub-social system. at the level of the legal subsystem, legal subsystem.

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that this change is a paradigmatic one. But if we take into account the political subsystem.

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the the moving from illegality, from legality of political parties, or the other way around, are in its systemic changes, and I will go to them in a in a in a minute. Other examples of paradigmatic changes are the the moving off for it. For instance, in in France, the retirement age from a

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Erez agmoni. 66. This is a a a paradigmatic change, or when a company changes the the CEO or the management team, or a country changes the the government, the Prime Minister. All of these are paradigmatic changes, one

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like very much in the way that Thomas could refer. What vertex are now? Rabbits.

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systemic changes, other other other kind of changes.

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Yes, systemic changes either erase a such system or create a new subsystem.

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Let's go first for the case of erasing a subsystem

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in society there are N. And subsystems.

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When society enters a a questioning phase of discussion, of of tensions, of augmentations, of confrontations

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over some issue, that is the distinction of a subsistence. It can end up erasing that subsistence, for instance.

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and making non-legal aristocracy.

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When when the political and the social systems move

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from a monarchy to republic. the aristocracy subsystem is erased or banishing political parties.

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that's a systemic changing as well in which the subsystem is a radius

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or extinguishing an organization that is a systemic

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change as well.

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Or when a company goes bankrupt, that is a systemic change as well.

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Other kind of systemic changes will be the creating the creation of a new subsystem. and this the questioning phase can take

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longer year 40 40 instance, the emergence of the online world. The online world is a new, subsistent online versus of line award.

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For another another example of

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an emergence of a new, of a new subsistence can be the emerging of a new profession.

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often new subsystems of professionals, for instance, nowadays

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we are talking about the artificially intelligent, prompt engineers.

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If this comes to be a new professional class, it is a new subsystem that is is emerging.

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And

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so a society that has N. Subsystems. enhances its complexity to the emergence or in position of a new distinction, and it it it. It end up with n plus one subsystems.

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so it

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in terms to yes. thank you. I'm about to to conclude now, in terms of conclusion.

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I would try, in this reflection.

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to to refer the key distinction of each sub-social system to the stability of society, and try to address that the change in which society engages.

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and very often through these 2 criteria, or to a paradigmatic change which essentially essentially keeps the same. So social subsystems running. change their meanings

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mit ctl. And what was legal now it is illegal, for instance, or the other way around, or through systemic changes in which a new set social system is created or a new social systems is erased.

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My argument is that the social stability

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leads to the the evolution of society through more and more understanding, and the social changes embody power, moves for the long-term survival survival of of society

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erez agmoni. I hope this was clear enough. I'm working on it and try to to to clarify some aspects and to build that your theoretical biases in a in a more detailed and outside one

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deeper. Why? Because, as you notice, this is a a theoretical development in which I will look for specific examples in order to try to describe the actual complexity of society from the lenses of social stability and social change.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you for keeping the time so that so any questions or comments only

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what you

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Yeah. thanks very much. so you. You mentioned towards the end that you would want to sort of empirically, but trust your theoretical argument. And I was sort of wondering, are you looking at? the the kind of cases that you will look at? Are they in Portugal? Are they in Europe? Are they in a specific specific

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took place in the world, and trying to make sense of the kind of cases that you want to look at and how using them will help you develop your argument.

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Yes? Well,

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My argument starts mainly, or

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departs only from from theory.

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I try to use some some of Lumen's. I beggars and the mainly autopoietic arguments. In order to describe the function of social subsystems.

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and in this description I will look for examples that can make it clear? Help to develop further on the the examples. And what I think I'm trying to do

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in a more. What might be the contribution of this reflection is.

398
00:45:57.200 --> 00:46:06.499
on the one hand, try to link the Lumen understand of communication to P. Of the idea

399
00:46:06.670 --> 00:46:31.440
in a in a very head, on a way in not that people be able at the conscious level, but that the a subconscious and then cautious level of the function of society, a. Taking into account the biological argument of my auto prizes that life lives in order to leave, so the survival and long-term prosperity of society.

400
00:46:31.590 --> 00:46:55.790
and the from this I will try to work the cases which is a simplification of of society and evolution as well of stability on the one hand, and change, on the other hand. And I'm using examples. I understand your your question, and I'm not very comfortable with that. With that, because I will lose the examples that we make my

401
00:46:55.870 --> 00:46:58.700
theoretical development clear.

402
00:46:59.170 --> 00:47:21.660
So, but I will not depart from the empirical casualty part. I will depart from from theory, but it's also a 2 way street. Right. You go to the example, and then you go back to the theory and then you go back. I mean, yeah, sure, sure, and that I think I will not to be able to do it without the examples, of course, and to try to clarify through

403
00:47:21.850 --> 00:47:29.670
through examples. Help me to theoretical link the arguments and try to develop them, of course.

404
00:47:30.990 --> 00:47:32.580
Thank you. Thank you very much.

405
00:47:39.029 --> 00:47:41.559
thank you for your presentation.

406
00:47:42.229 --> 00:48:04.249
 your distinction between part of the change and the system that they change was interesting for me. And my question is, I wonder what do you think about the conflict between subsystems you mentioned you mentioned the political party

407
00:48:04.340 --> 00:48:21.680
the. They are always disputing each other to decide their kind of business. So what they say about about the conflict between subsystem and just it's it's it to the stability of society.

408
00:48:21.820 --> 00:48:22.830
Yes.

409
00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:26.889
yes, in my, I refer that to

410
00:48:27.630 --> 00:48:39.260
I tried to develop the the of the external effect of the function of the subsystems, the external effect effect. One of the

411
00:48:39.680 --> 00:48:48.590
one of the external effects most relevant are the challenge of the communication between the so subsystems.

412
00:48:48.640 --> 00:48:59.760
because within this approach the communication between subsystems is always, it can only can only be perturbation.

413
00:48:59.850 --> 00:49:06.930
There is no guaranteed understanding, and I think this explains why communication is now the business of everybody.

414
00:49:07.570 --> 00:49:09.199
because what is

415
00:49:09.260 --> 00:49:19.889
the ground is misunderstanding. It's no communication, because the more such systems we belong, the higher the complexity. So and

416
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:27.610
yeah, subsystems, communication is one of the challenges of contemporarily complex complex society.

417
00:49:27.700 --> 00:49:37.290
and it is one of the external effects of the of the good function of of the social subsystems.

418
00:49:37.350 --> 00:49:47.900
and it is a very interesting terrain issue to try to explore the self-social systems communication.

419
00:49:48.210 --> 00:50:00.399
It is a very motivating problem, but I have no, no, no, no more answers up to now. But of course I'm I'm very keen to look into that issue in this. In this reflection. One.

420
00:50:00.740 --> 00:50:08.509
Thank you. So you mentioned you meant that your stability included such a challenge. Yes, yes, yes.

421
00:50:08.900 --> 00:50:23.589
yes, okay. And they are related to yes, to to the change. But instability there is that challenge as well. There is, in a sense, the stability of the social systems helps society

422
00:50:24.310 --> 00:50:26.990
to be stable but not stable.

423
00:50:27.510 --> 00:50:28.290
Okay.

424
00:50:30.330 --> 00:50:36.120
thank you, Mikhail. You raised your watch. Our hand.

425
00:50:36.940 --> 00:50:50.130
Mikael Kivelä: Yes, that is correct. But fortunately, Professor. so you'll have to go already answered my question. Yes, in the previous answer. So thank you very much.

426
00:50:50.180 --> 00:50:53.279
Thank you.

427
00:50:54.500 --> 00:51:05.069
Thank you for the presentation. I really like it. It was a very interesting way to present your advancements and your theoretical advances.

428
00:51:05.260 --> 00:51:09.649
and a talk to questions first

429
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:20.320
related to the examples, although you are not yet in that point, what sort of examples are you thinking on just to make the connection with

430
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:32.100
their following steps. And the second question is, have you considered a the context.

431
00:51:32.310 --> 00:51:34.879
I mean, out of how the context

432
00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:48.770
irritates the system. So it a actually the subsystems come up or or come down. How? How you are addressing that process, if you might consider or

433
00:51:48.850 --> 00:51:52.990
or not, so that are a bit to questions for my side.

434
00:51:53.670 --> 00:51:55.650
All right. So

435
00:51:56.050 --> 00:52:03.309
the first, on the first question, the kind of examples I would say

436
00:52:03.580 --> 00:52:05.150
they

437
00:52:06.150 --> 00:52:24.790
on the one hand, it's try to characterize the subsystems through their fundamental dist distinctions, which is some work already done by Lumen and many other researchers. The the questions of system, the family subsistence, and

438
00:52:24.790 --> 00:52:38.649
Mit. Ctl. And there might be many others, of course, subsistence, because the subsystems are formed by some communication, not on people, not by some people. We all belong to many, many subsystems, but so 250

439
00:52:38.670 --> 00:52:49.570
working in each of these subsystems, I will try to look at exams like these paradigmatic changes are the changing of legislation on, on smoking.

440
00:52:49.610 --> 00:52:59.910
on the retirement age, on the extinguishing of a company. Let's say.

441
00:53:00.650 --> 00:53:04.060
let me see, let me think if

442
00:53:05.300 --> 00:53:06.520
well.

443
00:53:07.090 --> 00:53:15.560
if if the Wagner group in Russia is a stringly distinguished, it's it's going to be a systemic change.

444
00:53:15.650 --> 00:53:21.130
if it only changes name, and it is integrated. It is a prismatic change.

445
00:53:21.150 --> 00:53:31.170
I would say that the potential for trouble with systemic changes is, it is higher, but it is. It should not always be this the the case? Sometimes the paradigmatic changes

446
00:53:31.260 --> 00:53:53.939
erez agmoni, that what we're ducks are now rabbits. The aristocracy rule not anymore are very, very, very, very, very violent, very complex in in society. So this kind of of examples, it's the kind of examples I'm looking for. So 101

447
00:53:53.940 --> 00:54:02.929
or the the building up in the last 2030 years of the online world is the emerging of a new subsystem.

448
00:54:03.160 --> 00:54:09.339
the the online world. And this. This adds a lot for the the complexity of society

449
00:54:09.460 --> 00:54:14.419
or the emerging of new new professions.

450
00:54:14.910 --> 00:54:22.300
prompt engineering. If all that the data scientists are ready is a new profession.

451
00:54:22.430 --> 00:54:31.650
So these are the kind of of examples the other issue you raise on on the problem of of the context. the

452
00:54:32.830 --> 00:54:39.279
yes. Well in part. the other. So the other subsystems are the context

453
00:54:39.340 --> 00:54:43.330
of each subsystems. But not only

454
00:54:43.510 --> 00:54:49.279
yes, not only, and the

455
00:54:50.930 --> 00:54:52.980
the context, I would say.

456
00:54:53.700 --> 00:54:56.890
is the environment is not the surroundings.

457
00:54:57.090 --> 00:55:04.050
so each so social subsystems determines its own context.

458
00:55:04.420 --> 00:55:10.150
and this adds up to the complexity of society as a whole.

459
00:55:10.290 --> 00:55:16.840
I don't know if in this specific paper I will deal with that issue because it is another.

460
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:31.560
another challenge, another, another, another important reflection, and the even all of these ideas, I will have to to work them a deeper, and some of your

461
00:55:31.590 --> 00:55:45.349
your, your your questions and comments, of course, are helping me in terms of noting what is more interesting, worthwhile and and more problematic or not. Thank you.

462
00:55:49.170 --> 00:55:51.600
Okay, so

463
00:55:52.010 --> 00:55:55.909
thank you very much. So, yeah.

464
00:56:01.020 --> 00:56:06.640
And so I like to move on the throat presenter ches off.

465
00:56:06.820 --> 00:56:10.609
 yeah, I already.

466
00:56:11.020 --> 00:56:13.520
I'm not there.

467
00:56:17.330 --> 00:56:20.630
Joseph. I can't hear you. I can hear you

468
00:56:21.660 --> 00:56:23.879
microphone.

469
00:56:24.850 --> 00:56:28.570
 Joseph.

470
00:56:29.250 --> 00:56:30.060
wow.

471
00:56:30.350 --> 00:56:41.850
Czeslaw Mesjasz: okay, good. Can you see? Can you see me? Can you hear me? Okay, good. I have to make the the screen. Okay, okay.

472
00:56:42.090 --> 00:56:45.249
Czeslaw Mesjasz: can you see this in the full screen. I full screen.

473
00:56:45.680 --> 00:57:06.089
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So we're welcome. Good good afternoon. Good morning. Whatever. I'm feel very happy and I'm not you it. I'm not in Australia. Maybe the weather is there this point 9 3 on my window will so mean, you know some of the

474
00:57:06.100 --> 00:57:28.179
Czeslaw Mesjasz: anyway. So I I I feel very pregnant, very happy to have a chance to present it. What is this? Is a part of my bigger project in principle. I have to apologize to China, because that's my book on the complex. It is pending in a way. But now I'm coming to the process of the problem. The problem of cop right? Now, I talk about this is separately set.

475
00:57:28.220 --> 00:57:34.950
Czeslaw Mesjasz: because it's a part of my methodology which is almost premise, which I call the deep complexity, methodology.

476
00:57:35.010 --> 00:57:51.060
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And it's it's might be a universal thing. I'm only signalling this. Yeah, for 2 purposes. There, that will be some. And papers on the way showing the the applications. Methodology, money is information, the complex Systems Perspective

477
00:57:51.960 --> 00:58:02.900
Czeslaw Mesjasz: county. It was also presented to one of the meetings of the economic physicians because of the physics as well. They they they've been to the area fine now, but they treat the numbers as

478
00:58:08.080 --> 00:58:15.990
Czeslaw Mesjasz: a nice example. Another nice. Okay. Sorry. My! My is my mouth. It's very sense. It always overs it it, anyway.

479
00:58:24.340 --> 00:58:29.390
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Oh, counting, counting, you know, and so on.

480
00:58:29.910 --> 00:58:47.539
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And we got it. You know what that, how discount and then measured with money, how money is measured! It's it will be published in in In the Economy, in that finance of Jonah, you know, like the or it just. That's just only the day there, some introduction presentations here.

481
00:58:48.040 --> 00:59:08.419
Czeslaw Mesjasz: something that is very important right now, is it? This job is usually talked in the discussions between social sciences and and and physicists that hmm, difficult science, mathematics, physics is science. So you know, the problem is what what is important for social physics is that

482
00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:15.159
Czeslaw Mesjasz: it did this. So so some say that it's because we have to consider the

483
00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:41.539
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and like, it's, it's it's it's, it's, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's it's difficult to prove. But it is truly by Newton. It's it's it's it takes by the th the that's it, and and and some other remarks by he's using.

484
00:59:41.680 --> 00:59:48.489
Czeslaw Mesjasz: So I can calculate the moment to start, but not the magnes of man, you know. So that's

485
00:59:50.190 --> 00:59:58.000
Czeslaw Mesjasz: what the name of the projects to analyze the money is measurement value under the conditions of the modern me. other problems.

486
00:59:58.080 --> 01:00:05.930
Czeslaw Mesjasz: a product of numbers in finance, and that that is not true, and then into subjective character of money

487
01:00:06.340 --> 01:00:28.790
Czeslaw Mesjasz: value of money that you and managed information, measurement and and measurement of value of. I'm not doing it a very interesting words, you know, that I'm not Just incidentally, for me, this interest in money is not everybody's interested management like a matter of fact, about a money's. The financial system has self control.

488
01:00:28.930 --> 01:00:56.010
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And here cybernetics, all packets of cybernetics. And I'm sorry for all the cybernetic second of this I've been netting. And all this systems of control are very relevant to starting to find out system in the financial systems. Of course I don't have enough time, because it's it's a book size project. And the so along the extra. But I'm just on the

489
01:00:56.260 --> 01:00:59.519
Czeslaw Mesjasz: there are 2 hypotheses on contact that

490
01:01:00.080 --> 01:01:10.660
Czeslaw Mesjasz: hmm! The measure of that could be on Tuesday. because they please say, say the they they come off. This is like, Okay, we have money also. The

491
01:01:10.710 --> 01:01:27.409
Czeslaw Mesjasz: oh, we can't mind you give it a a racial scale. Have it something very little measured. and then there's the hypothesis is quite, let's say, far reaching. But again I will. I can prove it not only here, but no, it's precise mathematical apparatus, but

492
01:01:27.690 --> 01:01:39.100
Czeslaw Mesjasz: that's something you pulled. And in the Information society in the modern society where money is treated as information in the

493
01:01:39.560 --> 01:01:41.780
Czeslaw Mesjasz: it's absolutely imminent.

494
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:57.560
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And there's I that in in inequ, in inequality is UN available in the Information Society. It's not a slogan. I can again

495
01:01:57.690 --> 01:02:03.609
Czeslaw Mesjasz: defend this session for 4 h. Okay, add something funny

496
01:02:03.850 --> 01:02:07.400
Czeslaw Mesjasz: in

497
01:02:07.680 --> 01:02:18.109
Czeslaw Mesjasz: in the beginning, was the. And now in in the beginning was the number.

498
01:02:18.430 --> 01:02:22.490
Czeslaw Mesjasz: What is the number coming from in social science?

499
01:02:22.950 --> 01:02:25.870
Czeslaw Mesjasz: He what we have to consider? Sorry, that is.

500
01:02:26.290 --> 01:02:35.599
Czeslaw Mesjasz: But it's over. I keep saying that. My, they're all

501
01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:48.440
Czeslaw Mesjasz: into subjective, intimated interaction about saving of servants. This is one of the core ideas of my concept of new concept of deep complexity. also stopping the interactions.

502
01:02:48.610 --> 01:02:51.949
Czeslaw Mesjasz: beginning for a moment and indexes physical faxes.

503
01:02:52.100 --> 01:02:57.480
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Again, what more this? That's the threat of gratification.

504
01:02:58.230 --> 01:02:59.320
Czeslaw Mesjasz: the problem

505
01:02:59.450 --> 01:03:07.080
Czeslaw Mesjasz: opera, is it when we talk about measurement, we have to post the operationalization in physical terms and operations in

506
01:03:07.270 --> 01:03:12.760
Czeslaw Mesjasz: social.

507
01:03:17.540 --> 01:03:32.809
Czeslaw Mesjasz: No, the second, I've been netting. So you're possibilities and so on your possibility. I always, I keep saying I don't refer to point of my accounting. There are so many of us in social sciences.

508
01:03:33.080 --> 01:03:39.440
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and now they have discussion, and some some extent I know what I'm talking about, so that they

509
01:03:40.370 --> 01:03:50.810
Czeslaw Mesjasz: what is important here that they sometimes people confuse when using the numbers. They treat numbers in starting society as this in philosophy, physics, where they.

510
01:03:50.900 --> 01:04:02.910
Czeslaw Mesjasz: the the mathematics, is the language of nature, and some case. But basically we have to look at it to subjective construction of the into subjectivity. This is nice scheme.

511
01:04:04.290 --> 01:04:10.419
Czeslaw Mesjasz: A, B or now and create we. They're

512
01:04:13.060 --> 01:04:23.919
Czeslaw Mesjasz: the last one comes here again it. Professionalization in physics is that important problem, how to define things which

513
01:04:24.060 --> 01:04:34.039
Czeslaw Mesjasz: that we can end up with mathematics. It's a very deep problem. It doesn't discount by Einstein, my bridge man, and closer to the discussion of Brisbane.

514
01:04:34.170 --> 01:04:45.880
Czeslaw Mesjasz: We're good to discover how we define things doing message. They say that we define. We define things by measurements. So then, the function of measurement.

515
01:04:45.990 --> 01:04:57.660
Czeslaw Mesjasz: he's become crucial. So and in in icono phase, it's all those back in the financial model. We have numbers, that meeting, a lot of data set of different kind of

516
01:04:57.670 --> 01:05:05.120
Czeslaw Mesjasz: different zones to the or whatever. And then we'll be models.

517
01:05:05.620 --> 01:05:09.529
Czeslaw Mesjasz: I mean social science. We have always to remember about Stevens.

518
01:05:10.250 --> 01:05:13.839
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Sorry this is Stevens. Not still that it's a typing error.

519
01:05:13.900 --> 01:05:16.970
Czeslaw Mesjasz: maybe some measurements just for you.

520
01:05:17.480 --> 01:05:26.680
Czeslaw Mesjasz: So when it's to to discuss seriously something about finance or or on today, we have to remember about this.

521
01:05:26.950 --> 01:05:47.209
Czeslaw Mesjasz: So sometimes in the research I have, we had the presentation here. So I'm going back, and that's much younger, but very breed of professor to the discuss. Why, the what time of the difference between quantitative and nothing, especially in the modern social sciences. This different.

522
01:05:47.610 --> 01:05:49.650
Czeslaw Mesjasz: some measure here we have.

523
01:05:51.110 --> 01:06:06.109
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and in social. And when stunning social systems have to kinds of they the data from what they collect. If you know not. Oh, then it's it's complex the number of that man's interaction, differentiation interactions and so on. So forth.

524
01:06:06.220 --> 01:06:12.169
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And then finance large amount of numerical day. As I said, time. Here is no

525
01:06:12.380 --> 01:06:32.839
Czeslaw Mesjasz: information, then practice. We have to deal with the mixture of the value, then measurement of money, the value of money that I mean it's not. It's a typical. It's a typical social concept. But what do we have to consider? It's a part of this new method of log that you normally in the discussion right now.

526
01:06:33.190 --> 01:06:44.149
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and they is something they want to take the easing and the hypotheses. The United States or other countries can bring as much money as possible, and they could there, they would reduce that.

527
01:06:44.260 --> 01:06:53.439
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and then unlimited level, because as long as they are able to pay the interest. or is it construction? It's an institutional.

528
01:06:53.610 --> 01:06:58.990
Czeslaw Mesjasz: I'm thinking, about the cost of money in in the

529
01:07:00.660 --> 01:07:02.969
Czeslaw Mesjasz: money. Is it deep.

530
01:07:07.540 --> 01:07:16.660
Czeslaw Mesjasz: But man is an inter subjective concept, and there is something to this inter subject to the problem with the subject between mobile society

531
01:07:18.390 --> 01:07:32.469
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and what I told to the physics is, it's cannot be made money. The reason that money cannot be reduced to the lab, but to the physical life. The physics, like the

532
01:07:34.410 --> 01:07:39.029
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and people we try to make it from check. No, it's not possible.

533
01:07:40.170 --> 01:07:42.280
Czeslaw Mesjasz: No measurement of money

534
01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:45.360
Czeslaw Mesjasz: is important. We have to go that deeply.

535
01:07:45.520 --> 01:07:50.830
Czeslaw Mesjasz: You them you create a

536
01:07:51.680 --> 01:07:54.090
Czeslaw Mesjasz: then would we have something

537
01:07:54.250 --> 01:08:15.199
Czeslaw Mesjasz: we put on resignation from Brett to, you know gold is not there any longer support of money in it. Let me just make it a he, because it will take money into subjective. So the certain moment we have to find the the bottom of the self-referential reason. And in the case of gold, or in the case of what happened.

538
01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:28.830
Czeslaw Mesjasz: James, whatever industrial goods, so it can be measured. No, it's no. We have a different thing. You can do so

539
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:37.400
Czeslaw Mesjasz: well by degree, and there's a very interesting situation earlier. It was the goods that search for that sold for money.

540
01:08:37.550 --> 01:08:44.149
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And now is the money, because

541
01:08:44.310 --> 01:09:01.830
Czeslaw Mesjasz: so the money is not searching for goods. But once again every sentence here demands a longer, a long explanation. The long expansion, and then they rate they. It's money, make money, make money, not expectations, or something.

542
01:09:02.280 --> 01:09:15.630
Czeslaw Mesjasz: because it's so huge, and it's such strongly the real. They go normally, but it's not disclosed on it because you can find it. I'm not talking about the Bitcoin, about Bitcoin. It's a different story.

543
01:09:16.290 --> 01:09:30.940
Czeslaw Mesjasz: There's I. There's a. I can only make a hint that by twisting can just disco. Since another observation. When you have Bitcoin, you know all this great. let me show.

544
01:09:31.380 --> 01:09:32.260
Czeslaw Mesjasz: So

545
01:09:32.740 --> 01:09:40.990
Czeslaw Mesjasz: they also need areas they also need for excavation they need in there so interestingly, between the value

546
01:09:41.140 --> 01:09:49.400
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and the and and the in physics. And he can. It can be also considered in any discussion about subjectivity?

547
01:09:50.630 --> 01:09:59.970
Czeslaw Mesjasz: One more instead of conclusion, some general question. It's close. That's why I'm I present here for C. 51.

548
01:10:00.490 --> 01:10:07.419
Czeslaw Mesjasz: It's to study complexity. Sorry little typing I have to to to to the code. It's it's

549
01:10:08.500 --> 01:10:17.219
Czeslaw Mesjasz: then we have to go

550
01:10:18.330 --> 01:10:20.059
Czeslaw Mesjasz: is.

551
01:10:20.320 --> 01:10:33.549
Czeslaw Mesjasz: you know, Zoom is. But people don't go to sufficiently. But in the micro economic level I'm not talking about Macronomy, but it would be. And then they'll have a lot of the physical tests. My problem in terms of Mike. From now

552
01:10:37.230 --> 01:10:48.820
Czeslaw Mesjasz: the fiat money. quantitative easing and printing man is a return to subjectivity. Well, there's about that make money, make money, and so on's against zoom. It kind of

553
01:10:49.850 --> 01:10:56.429
Czeslaw Mesjasz: then something that's quite attractive to me, intellectually and practically. But

554
01:10:56.930 --> 01:11:02.130
Czeslaw Mesjasz: some publication.

555
01:11:03.770 --> 01:11:10.450
Czeslaw Mesjasz: We are moving from the economy which is to be on, not to be from big to becoming. What does it mean

556
01:11:10.940 --> 01:11:16.890
Czeslaw Mesjasz: in the society where the which was based on fulfill and the basic needs.

557
01:11:17.570 --> 01:11:27.980
Czeslaw Mesjasz: So it was pretty simple. Not much of the inter subjectivity you eat or you don't be. You have days, you have that, and so on. So it's to be on, not too

558
01:11:28.360 --> 01:11:42.460
Czeslaw Mesjasz: right now in the Information Society, when social life is to a long, large extent. Dick put from the material in terminals. So it's like from big to becoming symbolic society. The site of the fact

559
01:11:42.500 --> 01:12:03.100
Czeslaw Mesjasz: we said in the last, in the last year I had that was full of I was asked to reduce takes on the anthropos of complexity, and that point out to a person and sustainable into and and the complexity they are now in the making and the pre publishing process. So I may not disclose them right now.

560
01:12:03.370 --> 01:12:13.410
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And what is interested in that environmental problems are setting new barriers. and I recall it to be, I think they can manage the work

561
01:12:13.480 --> 01:12:21.019
Czeslaw Mesjasz: that that that's coming down, and to that approaching again the barriers of the of the physical constraint. That is a different way

562
01:12:21.460 --> 01:12:24.599
Czeslaw Mesjasz: in a different way. I can soon as I can see them. Thank you.

563
01:12:25.830 --> 01:12:32.730
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And the conception concerning it in equality. The word man is to this information, hierarchy

564
01:12:33.110 --> 01:12:39.289
Czeslaw Mesjasz: is elevated. Why? Because in the information systems that

565
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:44.950
Czeslaw Mesjasz: one of the main distinctions of hierarchy is.

566
01:12:45.130 --> 01:12:56.920
Czeslaw Mesjasz: it's it's it's quite limited. When you will get. Look at music. There is a lot of I don't look at physical systems so moving from one level of hierarchy to another level.

567
01:12:58.260 --> 01:13:12.850
Czeslaw Mesjasz: You know it's there is a need for an edge. As I've said, it's only about so, David. They they keep spending money, making money, making money. So the level we are in terms of the level that the the, the, the, the, the, the the the of multi-

568
01:13:12.910 --> 01:13:20.859
Czeslaw Mesjasz: why? Because they are developing more and more advanced statistical models and so on

569
01:13:22.410 --> 01:13:32.690
Czeslaw Mesjasz: it. And in the case of derivative, do we know what you mentioned basically no trial. That is a typical try, and

570
01:13:33.350 --> 01:13:46.789
Czeslaw Mesjasz: I have to go deeper into that. What are the they invade? As I keep saying, very simple money, make money, expectations of making money or expectations of expectation, or make money.

571
01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:51.160
Czeslaw Mesjasz: It's quite funny from this hierarchical point.

572
01:13:51.230 --> 01:13:55.809
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and that's all. Thank you for attention. Thanks for

573
01:13:56.320 --> 01:14:08.419
Czeslaw Mesjasz: a chance to to present my new project and deep complexity, especially in the in the, in the company that I admire so much, and so on

574
01:14:08.820 --> 01:14:10.930
Czeslaw Mesjasz: this over. My, but thank you much.

575
01:14:17.980 --> 01:14:22.790
Thank you for your presentation. Any questions or comments.

576
01:14:30.870 --> 01:14:31.930
Okay.

577
01:14:33.470 --> 01:14:34.740
however, it

578
01:14:34.990 --> 01:14:41.479
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: yes, thank you. They take your chance up for sharing your a new project on

579
01:14:41.550 --> 01:14:45.280
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: it that I find very interesting on.

580
01:14:45.330 --> 01:14:52.660
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: When you get to the point of of telling clearly that it is

581
01:14:53.050 --> 01:14:56.880
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: in terms of captivity, a problem.

582
01:14:56.920 --> 01:15:04.019
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: and the and the value is a at the cognitive label that I find

583
01:15:04.220 --> 01:15:10.600
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: very interesting. But I I was wondering especially there's some

584
01:15:10.910 --> 01:15:12.720
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: there was this

585
01:15:14.010 --> 01:15:15.440
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: this

586
01:15:16.080 --> 01:15:22.930
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: the it was a sentence that is Saskatchewan said in, I I think, like

587
01:15:23.070 --> 01:15:24.579
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: 9 years ago.

588
01:15:24.980 --> 01:15:37.220
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: and that finance is the steam engine of our time, and and I would like you to if you had some comments on that, especially with with the

589
01:15:37.270 --> 01:15:42.370
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: a conjecture. You you you go to in the end.

590
01:15:42.510 --> 01:15:55.369
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: What you say in the world where mon is treated as information. the quality is unavoidable, so at least the steam engine had

591
01:15:55.670 --> 01:16:04.879
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: a limit. Not like that is the the use of of energy. But here, if we are speaking of money making more money.

592
01:16:05.380 --> 01:16:09.750
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: How a could we?

593
01:16:10.350 --> 01:16:13.989
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: There is essentially no limit to this

594
01:16:14.320 --> 01:16:23.640
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: creation of it's it's just a a bubble that is getting bigger and bigger, and especially now

595
01:16:23.940 --> 01:16:28.120
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: in the from the it to our time, and

596
01:16:28.150 --> 01:16:35.520
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: it has become more deregulated. It it was. It used to be more regulated how you could

597
01:16:35.780 --> 01:16:43.990
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: how the the finance could use these instruments so in well, if you agree with that

598
01:16:44.000 --> 01:16:53.899
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: sentence that it is a aking or similar to this steam engine. or in in this case. A

599
01:16:54.170 --> 01:16:56.759
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: what? What is your take on on that?

600
01:16:57.930 --> 01:17:05.560
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Well, thank you. I again, I could, because this has in the may, it's just in the making. So

601
01:17:06.410 --> 01:17:10.910
Czeslaw Mesjasz: the

602
01:17:12.130 --> 01:17:23.929
Czeslaw Mesjasz: financial system is a system of control. Bye. you could use, for instance.

603
01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:39.659
Czeslaw Mesjasz: so it could be interpreted like this. I can see that there is a big chance for social cybernetics to go again into treating, find out that social system systems control, or I could that so.

604
01:17:39.780 --> 01:17:41.809
Czeslaw Mesjasz: But there are more things.

605
01:17:42.130 --> 01:17:54.430
Czeslaw Mesjasz: It's it's it's like I've said that every word here could be developed in a long discount, that we just would be there in a very simple way. So looking at classic as the system of control, first 11. And then we have.

606
01:17:54.500 --> 01:18:04.380
Czeslaw Mesjasz: if you have Monday producing the system of control for controlling the system of control, even using the language of simple cybernetics as

607
01:18:04.440 --> 01:18:11.430
Czeslaw Mesjasz: leave you, then put into this sale reflexibility of the system the confirming system, that is.

608
01:18:12.020 --> 01:18:16.160
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And then when you look at social systems as social constructs.

609
01:18:17.010 --> 01:18:20.729
Czeslaw Mesjasz: that they are interacting, and if they have gold.

610
01:18:21.030 --> 01:18:25.730
Czeslaw Mesjasz: if they have something measurable sounds.

611
01:18:26.430 --> 01:18:39.700
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Then you can. They? They can measure with narrative scale of students. But when they start okay, I promise that you will get it. I promise that you will get it. I promise that you will get it. I promise that you will get it.

612
01:18:39.740 --> 01:18:50.320
Czeslaw Mesjasz: We are into my head. There is a big Miami and the new. And then then the queue comes the the so-called common knowledge in the.

613
01:18:51.040 --> 01:18:58.060
Czeslaw Mesjasz: if you have to convince the application of common knowledge, you know. Come on those I know that, you know.

614
01:18:58.310 --> 01:19:01.569
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and the conventions are just mathematical models.

615
01:19:01.790 --> 01:19:12.009
Czeslaw Mesjasz: I would say that it's a convention, but it's convention which is a mix of social construct and the tangible, and that this is just becoming a bubble

616
01:19:12.360 --> 01:19:19.830
Czeslaw Mesjasz: and the void they they get that I'm seeing is that a deep study of the interactions.

617
01:19:20.270 --> 01:19:33.630
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Not very much. That's a good inter subjectivity. And then the macros, the macro systems that they're in my system. So on that. So there's a huge and there's a big yeah, that is referring to picket.

618
01:19:33.990 --> 01:19:40.750
Czeslaw Mesjasz: He would be getting it because he had. He's a good, a very good economist. I do the kind of migration, and so on.

619
01:19:40.880 --> 01:20:00.140
Czeslaw Mesjasz: They had plenty of data to show. Do this is they. They get much money in those because they have numbers, the dream of economic regions. Oh, I have numbers, and that's good sign. But then I will not not about the quality of the day. I not in terms of the inequal econometric terms, but in terms of construct.

620
01:20:00.320 --> 01:20:03.700
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And our my assumption is that

621
01:20:04.080 --> 01:20:12.429
Czeslaw Mesjasz: because it's the the information hierarchy, so the the hierarchy will emerge natural.

622
01:20:13.000 --> 01:20:19.499
Czeslaw Mesjasz: the hierarchy of information systems, and those are better again, need for more information.

623
01:20:19.600 --> 01:20:28.970
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And another points emerging of the system of such information system. That's just another stuff. Okay, that's all. I could continue this. But I haven't time.

624
01:20:29.610 --> 01:20:30.330
Right?

625
01:20:31.300 --> 01:20:42.139
Thank you. So in the chat box there are comments

626
01:20:42.460 --> 01:20:44.390
under you first.

627
01:20:44.740 --> 01:20:56.449
I I think Mikhail had his hand up before me, so if you'd like to go first, so the let me share the chuck books to the

628
01:20:56.570 --> 01:20:59.040
yeah.

629
01:21:00.110 --> 01:21:03.339
So that,

630
01:21:04.250 --> 01:21:05.570
believe me.

631
01:21:08.220 --> 01:21:10.580
But this this question.

632
01:21:10.970 --> 01:21:13.450
good question.

633
01:21:13.770 --> 01:21:16.489
So the present we got a

634
01:21:16.970 --> 01:21:25.640
Mikael Kivelä: yeah. The open question is for the open discussion. I have a specific question to chess, love, if I may.

635
01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:30.779
Mikael Kivelä: I was very curious about the distinction of

636
01:21:31.950 --> 01:21:38.570
Mikael Kivelä: being and becoming so. Could you elaborate or rephrase that? Whether it's a

637
01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:43.200
Mikael Kivelä: common language side note, or a very profound ontological

638
01:21:43.460 --> 01:21:45.090
Mikael Kivelä: comments?

639
01:21:48.340 --> 01:21:56.950
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Okay. And this is the very famous saying by India Pre go in, and this

640
01:21:56.960 --> 01:22:04.829
Czeslaw Mesjasz: it is a metaphor here, because they discovered something different in thermodynamics from being. When you can distinguish

641
01:22:04.850 --> 01:22:21.399
Czeslaw Mesjasz: a logical sequence of Caesar links to becoming. You know they do. The T. The situation is becoming timeless, you know, and this is, it's here, some very deep mystical that I am who I am. It's time, this, but I am not going that far.

642
01:22:21.770 --> 01:22:28.889
Czeslaw Mesjasz: but in the in the modern society I mean that just this metaphor is, it has a back market that there is

643
01:22:28.950 --> 01:22:51.489
Czeslaw Mesjasz: is becoming well overflow with the information, you know, and it's difficult to to to to consider the the let's say that a logical calls on a logical call zoning. And, moreover, this is emerging again. I'm very close to the the emerging. So this is emerging. So the I. This is my all. Let's say my own met up with this.

644
01:22:51.530 --> 01:22:57.559
Czeslaw Mesjasz: the the society they don't need to society. Information about them is a typical society of

645
01:22:57.660 --> 01:23:17.259
Czeslaw Mesjasz: is of becoming. For instance, it's theory of management. They have a problem how to define knowledge. So those who go that further, the the the the most ambitious purposes. They say that knowledge is not being, but it just becomes

646
01:23:18.870 --> 01:23:22.599
Mikael Kivelä: okay. Thank you so much. Now, I'm on board what you're talking about.

647
01:23:25.490 --> 01:23:27.560
And it got under its command.

648
01:23:31.930 --> 01:23:56.880
Andrew Mitchell: So yeah, so I actually. So I made a comments. And I have a question as well. So my comment was, I actually studied physics for my undergraduate, and then changed to the social sciences from my masters onwards. So when you were mentioning about the use of, should I say, misuse of quantum mechanics and the social sciences? It did definitely pull up my heart strings, because when I moved across to the social sciences, and I had

649
01:23:56.880 --> 01:24:09.639
Andrew Mitchell: people who haven't studied physics since they were 15 or 16 years old, telling me about Quantum x y. Z. In the social sphere, and we evidently had no idea whatsoever what quantum mechanics was about. It

650
01:24:09.640 --> 01:24:34.510
Andrew Mitchell: does like my spidey senses tingle for once of a better term. When people mentioned quantum mechanics in the social realm. So I'm very, was very happy when you mentioned that at the beginning, and we can take some influences from physics in terms of observation and measurement. Without going fully into this idea of taking everything from a quantum world, and somehow trying to transform that into a the description of what in your case money?

651
01:24:34.750 --> 01:24:44.070
Andrew Mitchell: So that was my comment in terms of a question. yeah. What you've said was very, very interesting. So I'm not really sure I have

652
01:24:44.120 --> 01:25:08.649
Andrew Mitchell: a particularly good question, but is something that came to mind about derivatives. So, as you may know. But I'll explain, just to make sure I can understand it. I say, we're futures, contracts. You can buy a future contract, for example, if you're a farmer and you have wheat, you can sell your weeds and a futures contract as a certain price, and if you're a retailer you can buy it at a certain price. So it gives us stability in terms of your few tractions.

653
01:25:08.650 --> 01:25:24.640
Andrew Mitchell: Now, of course, Wall Street traders even retail traders, as we know, especially during the Covid pandemic, using Robin hood or other brokerages can bet on future contracts, can bet on stocks, can bet on Bitcoin, etc., and

654
01:25:24.780 --> 01:25:39.239
Andrew Mitchell: whilst you know, legally and financially, they have every right to it completely goes against the initial reason of why derivatives came to be. I trying to find that balance of guaranteeing a future outcome for both producers and purchases

655
01:25:39.470 --> 01:26:02.509
Andrew Mitchell: so given. I don't know if you can necessarily answer this from what you've said, but what your thoughts on that, the difference between a derivative which actually does have a real use case in securing a future price for people. And the way that derivative is then used by speculators, traders resell investors, etc., in order to create the maelstrom of a, you know.

656
01:26:03.020 --> 01:26:06.470
Andrew Mitchell: an economic Malays which we do see in the markets.

657
01:26:07.330 --> 01:26:13.760
Czeslaw Mesjasz: It was just a shortcut. Thank you for this for an inspiration. It's a just a shortcut.

658
01:26:14.120 --> 01:26:25.380
Czeslaw Mesjasz: but if you have, I also I'm I'm I'm physicist by background both. I'm still, but not upset. No, I'm not just telling stories, but the point is that

659
01:26:25.840 --> 01:26:30.960
Czeslaw Mesjasz: in this approach delay, if has a very broad meaning, you know

660
01:26:31.290 --> 01:26:52.880
Czeslaw Mesjasz: what is interesting, of course, that it's typically, you know, not in goods, you know, it's it's it's it's quite simply. It's a reason, not because what they say the authors of the day back is that they? It makes the markets more, let's say, more flexible, more efficient. You know that allocation.

661
01:26:53.050 --> 01:27:01.009
Czeslaw Mesjasz: It has a lot of detective allocation at the First level, and then what? Because so let's play insurance of this contract.

662
01:27:01.130 --> 01:27:16.209
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Let's assume, then, make insurance of insurance of this, and then, you know, if if you are, you know this some, they are saving themselves. They are saving themselves by making money, because then they discovered that they are some

663
01:27:16.700 --> 01:27:27.440
Czeslaw Mesjasz: we're working, we're working. We we call it counting models of complexity modes very, very broadly, and in this case they make money in a very short time.

664
01:27:27.610 --> 01:27:30.459
Czeslaw Mesjasz: He's decimal level.

665
01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:42.280
Czeslaw Mesjasz: And we are happy because this model has been working. So this is the first problem. So we have the problem probability of probably 10, so so far. But this is expanding

666
01:27:42.610 --> 01:27:46.389
Czeslaw Mesjasz: at a certain moment has been completely decoupled.

667
01:27:47.370 --> 01:28:08.910
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Then from that real economy activity, it wasn't disclosed. You know us. Ctm. For instance, I at this end prices that when they were scared they didn't disclose the real scope of the potential financial crisis. You know that the Us. Government had to give them money. Silent form, asylum, see? As to say, because people

668
01:28:09.530 --> 01:28:17.269
Czeslaw Mesjasz: so this is this. So here comes social cybernetics. So records he, there's and songs. Okay.

669
01:28:17.520 --> 01:28:18.320
Czeslaw Mesjasz: okay.

670
01:28:19.820 --> 01:28:21.460
Andrew Mitchell: okay, thank you very much.

671
01:28:23.180 --> 01:28:41.649
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Don't think about quantum mechanics, you know. I I'm very cautious, and I will not them to develop more on this. I don't criticize. By the way, Karin Bad and the others she's she's she knows what is particular physics say by piece she she has been particle physics.

672
01:28:41.740 --> 01:28:47.760
Czeslaw Mesjasz: I don't know her right precise. I came across her word. It's just 2 weeks recently.

673
01:28:47.770 --> 01:28:53.330
Czeslaw Mesjasz: She's just elaborating the language of philosophy. And my problem here, I will ask.

674
01:28:53.350 --> 01:28:59.269
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Karen. Barrack is, what about

675
01:29:04.380 --> 01:29:17.880
okay? It's time to reach the G of the presentation, but we still have 20 min. But how about our general discussion or something?

676
01:29:25.940 --> 01:29:39.469
That's right. Okay, as a session, you you you may finish

677
01:29:39.550 --> 01:29:55.510
present. Your

678
01:29:55.720 --> 01:30:02.900
I had a pending book, a manuscript to Real and for the audience, here I am dead.

679
01:30:03.030 --> 01:30:10.969
the collection of complexity. And so it's separate and complexity of studies. And I need manuscripts around 40,000 words.

680
01:30:11.120 --> 01:30:33.279
Okay, to always finish in the first, Issue. And if you have, or maybe Mikhail Jorge, even Andrew, or just laugh. I know you. You will finish some days, and here some. I need manuscripts, and many of the ideas that I listen today could be the print.

681
01:30:33.960 --> 01:30:41.109
Ok, so thank you very much, Aburo, for giving the opportunity.

682
01:30:42.360 --> 01:30:45.159
Czeslaw Mesjasz: if I may respond to the attainment.

683
01:30:45.400 --> 01:30:50.430
Czeslaw Mesjasz: My point right now is, of course, time always, but it's another story.

684
01:30:50.450 --> 01:31:00.250
Czeslaw Mesjasz: I I have it to. We have to discuss about this the problem of copyright. But it's just about it.

685
01:31:00.530 --> 01:31:02.879
I feel very much of the I.

686
01:31:04.770 --> 01:31:09.929
So yeah, can we finish this? Ok, thank you very much.

687
01:31:15.300 --> 01:31:16.600
Czeslaw Mesjasz: Yeah.

688
01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:29.700
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA:  hey. thank you, Sabur. And and thank you.

689
01:31:30.210 --> 01:31:32.609
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: Thank you very much. Everybody.

690
01:31:32.690 --> 01:31:36.519
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: A great stay in Melbourne.

691
01:31:36.830 --> 01:31:50.059
JORGE CARDIEL HERRERA: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, for I think. Discussion. Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, wait a moment. So we take photo. Yeah.

692
01:31:51.980 --> 01:31:53.470
I think

693
01:31:53.690 --> 01:32:02.160
I hope you're doing.

694
01:32:02.520 --> 01:32:04.409
Andrea. Thank you for your question.

695
01:32:04.500 --> 01:32:08.039
Andrew Mitchell: It's gone. No problem at all

696
01:32:09.350 --> 01:32:17.539
Up on the on on the screen here.

697
01:32:17.980 --> 01:32:21.049
have a good summer.

698
01:32:29.930 --> 01:32:34.090
1, 2, 3,

699
01:32:34.770 --> 01:32:38.219
one more, 1, 2, 3.

700
01:32:38.380 --> 01:33:07.000
So we will. We will share this photo afterward. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.