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Ok, so good afternoon, everyone. I'm Damien Khrushchevsky from the University of Bond.

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Thank you very much for organizing the session and for inviting me, participating in our discussion.  And this session has a crucial, scientific and also political agenda, I think, which is to shed light on the

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the reverse of movement and initiatives that try to seek a way out of the unsustainable status quo or present, and to

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also to discuss how we can turn these movements and and initiatives into a transformative force or historical transformative force.

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and so the elaboration of alternatives to to, to to the mainstream of the hegemonic social order are often strongly associated to social movements

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as you, as you will know. And building on Ulrich Beck's theory of metamorphosis, my contribution will address or connect to this agenda. I mentioned from a slightly different angle.

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So basically I will argue that in the current context, new opportunities arise to practice. So the welding of alternative walls or alternative.

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social, ecological realities, not only from the margins, but also from within core institutions of modernization.

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This, of course, requires Adequate methods to to do so. And in the second part of my talk I will discuss. those methodological questions on the basis of an action research project that I'm currently conducting 100 and

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in collaboration with a Gi set jet that is a gazelle shirt for Internet tunnel to zan about it. It's one of the agencies working for the Ministry of International cooperation and development from the Federal Government in Germany.

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And this action research of

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aims at fostering and transformative learning and change in biodiversity, governance, and especially in the field of access and benefit sharing under the Nagoya protocol of 2,010.

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So so let me start with With a very broad picture, and and the paradox but we standing widespread. semantics of global system, crisis, implosion, collapse, etc. We see that modern world society seems quite alive and well, and and continues to to expand

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in terms of the capacity of states, to build up power, and to to to devise and import collectively binding decisions, and also to keep dissenting voices under control

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in terms of modern law, which expands its regulatory and tackles in an increasing number of contexts of social life.

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If you look at the volume of monetary transactions within global capitalism, it keeps growing and expanding the volume of the quantitative volume of scientific publications as well. During the Covid pandemic, we could see how the modern health sector was mighty enough to take hold of the everyday life and the death of hundreds of millions, or maybe billions of of our human beings.

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So so modernity from this perspective is a is expanding and highly dynamic.

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And given this trend, we can wonder if the prospects of a radical transformation for a post-growth post-carbon system be available because they could seem rather tinerous.

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But, on the other hand, modern world society is also deeply troubled and destabilized.

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and among the very theoretical attempts to to grasp this paradox. I find Ulichpek's concept of metamorphosis to be particularly useful, so I will say a few words on this theory.

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So, according to to back what society is, and a new historical condition in which the destructive social, ecological side effects of modernization are mutating into destructive main effects.

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Erez agmoni, so previously industrial pollution, climate change, biodiversity, loss, the forceful displacements of their social groups and communities for infrastructure projects or industrialization, etc., were considered as a problem, highly problematic, but still as somehow manageable within the framework of of sustainable development goals 150,

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so they could be minimized, externalized, justified by promises of development, or simply ignored.

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 however, as side as as those side effects turning to and uncontrollable main effects which giropodize human life chances at a planetary scale, the very foundation of the modern Social order are shaken.

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and this, according to Beck, induces a metamorphosis of modern society into something radically new. So he speaks of a terra incognita implying. I quote him, New modes of seeing the world being in the world and doing politics.

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So to understand Beck's idea of metamorphosis. I think it's important not to confuse it with a revolution, because metamorphosis follows no ideological program and is also not instigated by a single political force.

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The metamorphosis is also distinct from salvatic imaginaries of a transition of transformation from a crisis ridden world, a into a sustainable world.

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 As the Ulashback emphasizes, it will be misguided to equate the metamorphosis of the world with a change for the better.

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so to to get a little more specific within the short time of this presentation. the metamorphosis of the of the modern world, with its destructive but also it's an antibiotic and creative processes of change can be observed in 3 dimensions.

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So the first I mentioned in the first dimension, we see that the mutation of side effects into main effects, metamorphosis, conceptions of reality.

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To give you one example.

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the more life chances or human life chances get dominated by destructive material powers that are out of control, like climate change, or also the loss of of biodiversity and associated livelihoods. The more the the modern conception of of human living, of of human beings living outside and above. Nature gets destabilized and lose destruction.

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And the same is

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about the same applies for modern conceptions of future as open-ended, open-ended, linear development.

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Of course. So in this troubled context, we see that new conceptions of reality emerge and gain salions.

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such as conceptions of the future as collapsed conceptions of smart cities that would provide a safe haven to elites in a world gone astray. Conceptions of indigenous knowledge as a source of solution for existing problems that modernity is unable to to solve by by itself.

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It said, well. secondly, there is a mutation of side effects into main effects, metamorphosis prevailing institutions.

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So modernizing institutions, including the national states and capitalist markets, still function. Obviously, as you can see in the sense that they operate and they expand.

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but they are increasingly overburdened by problems, including existential problems that they cannot solve. These are institutional arrangements function increasingly in a dysfunctional way. So so they function and and and dysfunction simultaneously.

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and in this context new politics emerge, including politics of invisibility with which institutions try to hide their structural importance or inability to to address problems in a convincing way. politics of sustainability, transitions that entrench paradoxically, the the unsustainable status call reactionary forces that that capitalize on on the fears

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triggered by ecological catastrophes while denying the very existence of these ecological catastrophes. new movements of civil disobedience, such as last generation

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or the French solemn mandalator or uprising, etc.,

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and finally, in a third dimension, the shift of side effects into into main effects, metamorphosis, normative coordinates and and normative horizons. So economic growth, national sovereignty, or individualism remain dominant normative frameworks, but they increasingly appear as misleading and out of tune, sometimes also out of touch

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With contemporary Social material realities. So production increasingly also means destruction. claims of sovereignty over territories. I think of Bolsonaro's claim of sovereignty of as a maximum, as rainforest, for instance, these claims end up producing habitable space. So it's also like

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the contradictions as a dense science. etc. And in this context, new normative

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in this context of normative disorientation. If you want numerality and new conceptions of injustice and of solidarity and significance.

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so one implication of this so historical historical condition of metamorphosis is that it creates new opportunities to advance the agenda of universal transformation in core institutions of the modern order.

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and in the second part of my talk, as I announced, I will discuss this point in the light of this action research Project, conducted with Jadet and other academic partners in the context of access and benefit sharing.

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So first, let me try to to give you an idea of what access and benefit sharing is is all about. Maybe some of you will know it, but others maybe not. So basically access and benefit sharing or abs is a governance mechanism which is concerned with access and hues of biological and genetic materials, and also of associated traditional knowledge.

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so we speak, typically of the medicinal plants. Plants useful for the food and beverage industry. For cosmetics! Genetic resources that are useful for biotechnologies, etc.,

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and previously users of biological and genetic resources, such as research institutions and also companies

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from the globe, mainly from those of global north, used to carry out bio-prospecting and biotrade in countries of the global South without patch concerns for for these countries and for the original resource holders. So they would extract biological resources and and associated knowledge or use intellectual property rights to patent useful molecules or entire plants.

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develop lucrative products and technologies, and keep all the benefits for themselves.

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In the 19 eighties. These practices were increasingly criticized as neo-colonial practices of bio-piracy and building on these critiques governments from the global South raised the issue at the international negotiations of the UN. Convention on Biological Diversity, that was adopted at the Rio or Summit in 1,992.

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As a result of these negotiations. Next to the objectives of nature, conservation, and sustainable use of biodiversity. The third objective was added in the Cvd. The Cbd. Standing for the conventional biological diversity.

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And According to this sort of objective, a regulatory framework would be put in place to ensure that users of biodiversity and associated traditional knowledge. first. would first have to get a prior informed consent. From resource holders.

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and also access to and use of resources would need to be to

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to be conditioned by a benefit sharing agreement.

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based on which fair and equitable share of monetary and monetary benefits arising from the use of biodiversity, would get redistributed to the original resource holders.

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So it took quite a lot of time between the introduction of this objective in the the global biodiversity governance architecture in 1,992 and it's it's it's translation in international law. But this happened with the signature of the Nagoya Protocol in 2,010

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The German Gi set which I, which I mentioned in the early 2,000, had project to to, to, to, to provide technical assistance to African countries to implement the provisions of the Convention on biological diversity, and in 2,005 they seized this field of this mechanism of Abs.

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and became quite a major player internationally in the promotion and also in the implementation of access and benefit sharing. So they walked closely with a number of African countries. In the negotiations of the Nagoya Protocol, and once the Nagoya Protocol had been adopted, they they, they. They have to have continued to work with those African countries to help them put in place our national regulatory frameworks

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jet that has also worked with the European companies and Smes or companies on the global South, especially in Africa, to promote ads compliant value chains in biotrade.

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and jazzette has also worked with Ilc, so indigenous indigenous peoples and local communities to help them assert their rights rights, and preserve bio-cultural diversity, and that Ibs regime.

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So several features of access and benefit sharing make it particularly interesting in terms of transformative change

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and the agenda of proof that so transformation.

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First, we can see that access and benefit sharing and bodies many of the problematic premises that are typical of the sustainable development paradigm underpinning the environmental governance frameworks put in place in the early 1,900 ninetys.

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So the conception of nature prevailing in abs reproduces the epistemological separation between nature and humans.

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which, as you know, is a key cultural root of unsustainability.

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abs also assumes that the heightened capitalist exploitation of biodiversity will create incentives for conservation and sustainable use

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overall abs operates on the on the basis of a very narrow understanding of indigenous knowledge

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to its use for biological research, and by and commercial by prospecting

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Ibs also strengthens, and we reassert the sovereignty claims of national States over territories which are considered Passive pools of resources to be exploited, and also expects governments to to facilitate the exportation, including the industrial exportation of these resources. And finally, Ibs also reproduces post-colonial development talism with the idea of benefit sharing

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because benefit sharing is considered as mechanisms that will help developing countries catch up and become like normal industrial nations of the global laws.

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 yeah. Another interesting feature of abs is that.

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not on paper. But if you look at ideas on the Ibs regime. In reality it is quite dysfunctional, as many other components or parts of environmental governance.

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and this also makes it quite a propitious field to experiment and engage in a substantive transformative work. If you try to transform the government's frameworks

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to to

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social and ecological issues in our.

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in the account context.

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So this is what our action Research project is trying to do. So we conceive of

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Abs. So the the this regime, as a real-life laboratory to elaborate methods for deep transformative learning and change. And to do so, we we articulate or bring together insights from critical social theories, knowledge from other disciplines, including anthropology, biology, and bioeconomics.

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empirical research, and the knowledge and agency of a key protagonists of the abs regime.

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So concretely, though the project is structured in 2 phases in the first phase which is now coming to an end.

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 Although the first, the first phase consists in a an exploratory study, which is informed by the literature and by 25 semi-structured interviews that were conducted in Germany and also in Namibia with various abs actors.

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2 min. Okay, so to do, too. But basically this, this exploratory study has several functions. one is to to to shift the the perspectives of of of actors and and and the discourse on on the problems or the dysfunctions of access and benefit sharing typically jad, that and other actors see problems in terms of problems of implementation within the the given frameworks.

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And with this study we show that the frameworks themselves are part of the problem, and that the problems cannot be solved within this.

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this, this framework. So making the case for for structural transformative change.

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I I would have examples, but due to time I will skip them.

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 building on this diagnostic. Our diagnosis as the the exploratory study Also allows to introduce and inancipatory perspectives from critical theory into the the transformative change process that we are initiating.

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 for instance, jet publications of jets related to transformation. emphasize that. So jets would be to sync and act outside established structures, and this can be used as an entry point to Introduce the critique from and that thing, for instance, on scalar sinking or tentacular thinking from an hour away. etc.

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also like. So

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the interview statements about the need to decolonize. international cooperation can be used to introduce. Ideas on the pre-reverse. From for Iscobar! And as a Marisol de la Cadena, etc.

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 And the third function of this expert we study is that

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conducting interviews with key protagonists of of of Abs also gives an an opportunity to craft alliances with various actors of this regime, and to involve them into the second step of the action research.

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The second step will

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constitute a community of practice involving various partners.

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also academic partners, youth from the University of Bond, from University of Cape Town, University of Namibia, and the Helmholtz center of and dumped research, jazzed as a non-acading partners. But within this community of practice we will also have people from the secretary of the Cbd. People from Bio-trade. So companies Representatives of indigenous communities and indigenous peoples.

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etc. as well. So yeah.

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most of the of the players around and through workshops and semantic groups, as well as attempted by practitioners to induce change

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for real, and then being accompanied and reflected upon by by researchers. The idea is to embark into a kind of collective journey of experimenting with transformative learning and change in the real life laboratory of Abs.

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maybe due to time. I will stop here, and I look forward to your questions and to the discussion afterwards.

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So

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we now have some.

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And yeah, and you are there. Very good. so

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can you speak. So maybe check. We can hear you.

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Anja Habersang: Yeah. Can you hear me?

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Yes, it's fine. So do you want to share share screen from your end?

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Anja Habersang: Can you see it. Well.

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yep, that's very good. Thank you very much.

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Anja Habersang: Okay.

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go ahead.

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Anja Habersang: Yeah. So thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. even though just virtually unfortunately. My name is Anja from the University of Castle.

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Anja Habersang: and I will present today on tackling terracide, and not only climate change, a pure reversal perspective on the global and multifaceted crisis of capitalist modernity.

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Anja Habersang: So to introduce my research topic, I first wanted to say

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Anja Habersang: that I would present the case, study and the movement participants in the case. They struggle for the be the recognition of terrorism as a crime against humanity and nature alike.

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Anja Habersang: And so, therefore it's ready for the recognition of nature as a political subject, to decolonize human nature relations, and they do that they do so in order to find a solution to the systemic or to support the the finding of a solution of the systemic crisis we find ourselves in today.

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Anja Habersang: So, as I said, I will present the case. Study. It is from the indigenous women's movement for Wendy, via in Argentina

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Anja Habersang: and the presentation draws on empirical field research and ethnographic field research, and that I conducted in Argentina in 2,019,

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Anja Habersang: and I continued a bit due to Covid virtually afterwards.

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Anja Habersang: And and I also wanted to say that I position in the field as an activist scholar, and that means that I was engaged with a movement. and I collaborated doing the activities and events. for example, I participated as an international observer in court hearing or doing the direct actions.

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Anja Habersang: and therefore I try to redistribute at least a bit

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Anja Habersang: while in the field, even though I'm completely aware that it's always a special area of tension to contact field research as a somebody from the global north and the global South. And they're like asymetrical power relations. And of course, we need to be very sensitive. But yes, that's why I positioned as an activist scholar, and I was actively engaged with a movement to at least a little bit redistribute. Why, there.

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Anja Habersang: so to present the movement itself.

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Anja Habersang: and the women who participate, and they belong both to communities, and also live in urban areas. They're completely spread out from Argentina's North to the South that we present all age groups practically.

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Anja Habersang: and they became active, since, like 2,013,

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Anja Habersang: to briefly introduce the conceptual framework I'm applying.

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Anja Habersang: I apply to colonial intersectionality as an analytical tool, and I do so because it reflects the participants and my perspective because they constantly emphasize how different social inequalities intersect

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Anja Habersang: and specific ways in Argentine society, and of course, beyond So they highlight the intersection of different categories and the dimensions of inequality, as well as also various systems of oppression, such as capitalism, races, and patriarchy.

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Anja Habersang: So the actors, Internet intersectional analysis was shaped by a de-colonial thinking.

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Anja Habersang: and to explore why they struggle for terror side and not only clients, climate change.

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Anja Habersang: And we first need to have a look at their positioning as body territories, because it helps us understand a bit their struggle.

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Anja Habersang: So I start with the quote As I explained why they positioned as or by their position themselves as body territory, as follows, our territory in habits us, because of our body as territory.

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Anja Habersang: Oppression cannot be analyzed without taking into account our bond with our land, the forest, the river, and the mountain live in our being. Everything that is done to our land is done to our body, which gets sick and weakens together with our land.

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Anja Habersang: So I've learned of the fear that the movement participants, I'm feeling, thinking and positioning as body territories actually embodies this human nature relationality.

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Anja Habersang: because it amplifies their perception that there is no distinction between bodies or humans at nature, because they perceive themselves as deeply interrelated.

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Anja Habersang: So they actually use also this positioning as a political one to actually link the struggles to defend their territories against extractivism. For example, then also with a struggle against intersection, discrimination, racism, and the historic violation of their bodies.

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Anja Habersang: of course. and the discourse of body as territory is nothing new

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Anja Habersang: and Latin America but in this case, as also others do. But in this case I observed that the movement participants specifically draw on reclaiming indigenous epistemologies. But this also means that they don't position themselves as feminism, for as feminists, for example.

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Anja Habersang: and they do so to decolonize nature generators

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Anja Habersang: due to their relation and positioning means that everything that is in nature

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Anja Habersang: for them is alive. They frequently talked about a separate circle of life that reveals this relational perspective. and they emphasize that everything is interconnected, and this also involves non human beings and subjectivities.

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Anja Habersang: which are considered as living and separate beings, such as the stone, the mountains, the river, but also the energies and forces inhabiting nature.

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Anja Habersang: So with this in mind,

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Anja Habersang: we turn now to why the movement? introduced this and a conception of Terracide.

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Anja Habersang: Well, Terra side. First of all, it refers to a systematic extermination of all forms of life. And now we look at what that means. concretely.

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Anja Habersang: So the movement talks about terr aside, and not only climate change, even though they, of course, always emphasize that there's an ongoing climate crisis that we need to take it urgently, and but they introduce the notion of terr aside to emphasize a more holistic perspective

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Anja Habersang: on life and existence. and this holistic perception evolves from the interrelation between humans other than humans at the natural environment that they perceive.

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Anja Habersang: And and so for them. For from such a relational perspective, the different global crisis that we observe and my interwoven and climate change is one aspect. because it is interwoven with also social injustices, capitalist coloniality.

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Anja Habersang: and all of these mutually also reinforce each other.

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Anja Habersang: Hmm, yes, to show how I will now introduce further what this I make. Concepts are like the conceptualization of Terrace that means for the movement members.

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Anja Habersang: And first they define parasite as the destruction of the 3 dimensions which for them shape life and existence on earth.

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Anja Habersang: first, we have the tang of the ecosystems. that refers to what is today called the environment or ecosystems.

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Anja Habersang: and being well aware of criticizing the in the environmental destruction, cost the movement conceptualized terror side also as Echo Side.

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Anja Habersang: My Echo side is a term already well known. It introduced. It refers to the destruction of non-human nature.

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Anja Habersang: even though it has not yet been formally accepted with an international law. the second dimension of then the dimension of people's or culture

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Anja Habersang: and the movement participant participants also conceptualized terr as as genocide

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Anja Habersang: and this and they also add that terror side also manifest itself through feminine side and transfer the site

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Anja Habersang: because of the assumption that certain bodies can be violated and murdered, and some lives are worth more than others.

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Anja Habersang: And then this understanding of ecosystem as a form of dinner slide also challenges

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Anja Habersang: the anthropocentrism that is implicit in the current definition of genocide.

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Anja Habersang: because, usually the destruction of the environment

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Anja Habersang: as you're really treated as ecosystem, and therefore as a separate phenomenon. And so in this case the explicitly link echo, side and genocide, and frame This as constitute in the same violent act.

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Anja Habersang: Then we have the third dimension the perceptual dimension and these refers to energetic forces

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Anja Habersang: and the different energies that inhabit the natural environment. and by adding this intersection of by by adding this perceptual ecosystem to the understanding of terror side.

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Anja Habersang: they add also another layer to what is contained in the natural environment.

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Anja Habersang: Further, they decolonize the definition of echo side by framing terracide as epistemicides

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Anja Habersang: and that means that the movement participants. say that colonization was echo pioneered by a customer side because it has and visibleize these relational epistemologies.

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Anja Habersang: that we can see in their understanding of body territory, or terrified. that are grounded on this and that dependency between humans and the natural environment.

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Anja Habersang: And for the movement an epistemic side continues because we still live in times that are shaped by coloniality.

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Anja Habersang: and because of that for the movement participants. what also forms part of the global crisis that we find ourselves in is that it is framed as a crisis of knowledge, thought, and meaning, and they actually demand

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Anja Habersang: a revolution of thoughts.

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Anja Habersang: and from this follow up that they also criticize the Anthropocene narrative. And this is where where they bring in the climate crisis into the debate about Terracide.

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Anja Habersang: because they say that the climate crisis resides from that that humans position themselves at the top. And on this a dichotomy constructed between humans and nature

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Anja Habersang: and this is actually the root cause of the climate crisis.

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Anja Habersang: So for our movement, it is the human nature dualism that needs to be tackled because it actually causes the civilizational crisis

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Anja Habersang:  and the system of death that they refer to as Ca is characterized by capitalist races and patriarchal system that is putting the life on the of the planet at risk revealing again the intersectional perspective.

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Anja Habersang: And they frame actually, the hegemonic development model of global capitalism as an imminent threat to human existence.

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Anja Habersang: And and what follows from all this, that they introduced the amic notion of terracide

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Anja Habersang: to actually so to have a notion that considers both the crimes against nature and humanity alike.

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Anja Habersang: and to hold to be able to hold the terraceided actors accountable and terrorist side actors for the movement of, for example, extractivist corporations, companies, but also the nation states of the world.

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Anja Habersang: Yeah, so how can future be made? A new and a look Otherwise, from a pure reversal perspective.

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Anja Habersang: And we're first, I think it already became explicit that the movement sees capitalism and extractivism as the problem is might asset.

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Anja Habersang: And this quote, and from this follows that they demand by media as a right to establish harmonic relationships and reciprocity with nature

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Anja Habersang: very briefly, for I'm running out of time. So Terror slides to to to to to better, or to struggle against terrorism.

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Anja Habersang: and they say we need to reconstruct when we via

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Anja Habersang: and their understanding of when we again reflect the relational perspective.

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Anja Habersang: then it's grounded in again in their understanding of What we see again reflected the three-dimensional life that we already have seen in the understanding of terricide.

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Anja Habersang: Therefore for them, when you is understood as a reciprocity with nature, one between humans and also one between humans and other than human subjectivities, which again includes

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Anja Habersang: the energies that inhabit the spiritual ecosystems.

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Anja Habersang: So in the understanding of point via the place human nature of a nationality and focus. Of course, the notion of when we have nothing new, and it translates as good living.

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Anja Habersang: and has been advocated for by several Latin, American, and indigenous movements to suggest alternatives to the hegemonic understanding of development.

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Anja Habersang: So by by radically questioning these boundaries between humans and nature. they question the anthropocene narrative that is embodied in the hegemonic understanding of development.

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Anja Habersang: And that's they frame the struggle for one via as one for life itself.

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Anja Habersang: To briefly conclude, the movement participants frame

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Anja Habersang: the contemporary global, interrelated crisis as a crisis of human nature relations. They criticize the anthropocene rate of

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Anja Habersang: that for them triggers, socio ecological crisis and global capitalism. and

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Anja Habersang: from their positioning as body territories. We can see that. they are. They ground the understanding on human nature, relationality in contrast with the dualism or dichotomy.

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Anja Habersang: and that a global capitalism is grounded in and everything is deeply related, some humans or bodies in nature territory other than human subjectivities.

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Anja Habersang: and this is also reflected in their emig notion of terr aside.

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Anja Habersang: and by conceptualizing terr aside as the destruction of the 3 dimensional life and the movement of us also a more holistic perspective

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Anja Habersang: on life and existence that helps resend a humans as intervention with everything else.

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Anja Habersang: And the notion of terricide also helps to decolonize the definition of ecosystem. A generators.

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Anja Habersang: and they bring in also the epistemic dimension into the base about the global and multifaceted crisis when they claim that it is also a civilization crisis.

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Anja Habersang: I saw that in Mark one, maybe as an alternative to development in order to reconstruct. If Paula said the out of living.

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Anja Habersang: thank you very much.

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Thanks so much. And you

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I might move this later on, so you can see the rest of us in here. We are here. There are some of us here, I promise you. So we now are going to hear from Aya is either.

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are you?

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Eija Ranta: Yes. Hello!

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See if your screen will share.

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Eija Ranta: Yeah, let me try.

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Right.

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Thanks, so much. So go ahead.

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Eija Ranta: all right. I think you can see. See it now.

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Eija Ranta: So Hello, everybody, and good morning from Finland. My name is A. I am

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Eija Ranta: Academy of Finland, Research Fellow and University Lecturer of Global Development Studies at the University of Helsinki.

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Eija Ranta: The title for my talk today is reforming and resisting development, the history and the presence of development alternatives.

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Eija Ranta:  what I will. This what I will be presenting is a book project that I'm working on right now in the field of critical development Studies.

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Eija Ranta: it's a book project in which I aim to study diverse kinds of development alternatives to growth based modernization and neoliberal paradigms.

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Eija Ranta: The book aims at defining and conceptualizing alternatives and Utopian visions beyond capitalist development.

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Eija Ranta:  yeah.

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Eija Ranta: instead of merely conceptualizing them. I I am at historically nuanced analysis, looking at alternatives in specific historical times, examining in detail the 1960 S. The 19 nineties and contemporary times.

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Eija Ranta: As times during which eternity of thinking beyond capitalist development has been particularly vivid.

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Eija Ranta: The emphasis is on the global South and Latin America. in particular.

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Eija Ranta: I see Latin America as an epicenter to critical thinking revolutions and active societal engagement in thinking

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Eija Ranta: a development differently.

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Eija Ranta: Why a critical look at alternatives to capitalist development is needed

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Eija Ranta:  For many decades. Since the 19 nineties.

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Eija Ranta: the tre of capitalist development and to neoliberal globalization

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Eija Ranta: have been portrayed as found. Foundational features of the global global order.

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Eija Ranta: Debates about economy and politics are often

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Eija Ranta: presented as if there are no alternatives to neoliberal globalization and transnational dictations of political parameters.

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Eija Ranta: In his book on the Chronic Revolution. anthropologist, David Scott.

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Eija Ranta: Discuss how the collapse of the Marxist and Socialist revolutionary horizon led to this illusion and lack of political imaginations about desirable futures.

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Eija Ranta: However, in contemporary times we are in an urgent need for alternative ways of conceptualizing and practicing development we leave amidst increasingly polarized geopolitics.

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Eija Ranta: rising, authoritarianism, military station and war

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Eija Ranta: and post pandemic economic and social challenges.

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Eija Ranta: Furthermore, planetary crisis including the climate emergency

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Eija Ranta: pollution, that biodiversity loss affects us all profoundly.

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Eija Ranta: in Latin America. during the 19 nineties there was a wave of persistence to neoliberal globalization and increasing inequalities. That,

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Eija Ranta:  nearly liberal is in pro.

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Eija Ranta: and it let the subsequent boom of a progressive, indigenous, and creating politics

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Eija Ranta: as a contrast to previously held left wing goals of heavy industrialization and one party politics, the new Utopian visions beyond capitalist development, true on decolonizing and humanitarian political ideals and conviviality between humans and more than humans.

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Eija Ranta: The rise of the so called being tight governments of the early to the thousands crystallized the demands of social and popular movements for the more egalitarian and redistributive politics as exemplified in

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Eija Ranta: for sales social welfare programs in Venezuela, twenty-first sensory Socialism and Bolivia and Ecuador's attempts at constructing plural national states

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Eija Ranta: in recognition

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Eija Ranta: of the indigenous people.

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And

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Eija Ranta: this letter is often discussed through the concept of Brewen Vivier, and we here be in of which any I was just earlier referring to in another Latin American context.

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Eija Ranta: also currently as a response to in intensifying extractivism, which has which has also been

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Eija Ranta: push forward by Many of the the progressive governments in Latin America

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Eija Ranta: post post extractivist politics

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Eija Ranta: can also be perceived as a Utopian horizon currently rising in Latin America in response to the urgency of the planetary crisis.

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Eija Ranta:  in this. hopefully, one day for us coming book, I would like to study 2 aspects, and that the inter linkages

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Eija Ranta: first of all, eternity of paradigms and autonomous organizing beyond capitalist development.

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Eija Ranta: but also the Post, Second World War Development Corporation Constellation. And looking at the interconnections between these 2 2 issues.

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Eija Ranta: I'm interested in how. whether and how they interconnect. how some alternatives with time become institutionalized.

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Eija Ranta: and where and in which conditions, new kinds of alternative thinking and autonomous organizing emerges.

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Eija Ranta:  as mentioned earlier, I am interested in

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Eija Ranta: particular

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Eija Ranta: decades particular historical errors.

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Eija Ranta: and you can see them here in the slide.

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Eija Ranta: I find these as historical moments in which they have been moving booming times for societal activism and for social movements

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Eija Ranta: as well as critical thinking

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Eija Ranta: about alternative conceptualizations of development

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Eija Ranta: or imaginary ideas of a better or desirable futures

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Eija Ranta: I have listed here. some of the examples of the kinds of it issues

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Eija Ranta: that I would be I would be interested in examining

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Eija Ranta: Some of them might, of course, be considered today quite mainstream development thinking

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Eija Ranta: And therefore I'm conceptualizing

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Eija Ranta: this book idea through

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Eija Ranta: this.

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Eija Ranta: ideas of both reforming development and for assisting development. And

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Eija Ranta: I'm interested in this constant dialogue between the reform and resistance

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Eija Ranta: I have personally, earlier, investigated in detail this when we there, and we will be in thinking through long term ethnographic engagement in Bolivia

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Eija Ranta:  And I'm also interested now in

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Eija Ranta: situating that particular

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Eija Ranta:  thinking to why, the field of alternatives

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Eija Ranta: and also situating it.

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Eija Ranta: looking at.

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Eija Ranta: Oh, it's a relationship with international Development corporation apparatus.

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Eija Ranta: what kinds of linkages it has had in

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Eija Ranta: different decades? and at different moments of of

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Eija Ranta: the introduction and spread of this conceptualization of Gwen Vivier and the

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Eija Ranta: while exploring alternatives. It also sheds light

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Eija Ranta: on what has been the prevailing or the orthodox paradigm of each decade

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Eija Ranta: Nowadays there's a lot of criticism of development, lots of criticism of capitalism.

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Eija Ranta: without explicitly stating or scrutinizing what is exactly being criticized, or what is the exact conceptualization of development, and how it manifests in different contexts and in different times.

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Eija Ranta: So my interest is to nuance and history size, the criticism of economic growth, criticism of Western modernity.

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Eija Ranta: the criticism of development. And I look at, I I would like to look, for example, at the State. Let capitalist modernization, neoliberal globalization

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Eija Ranta: and current very strong discussion on on colonialism and coloniality.

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Eija Ranta: to conclude

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Eija Ranta: the preliminary ideas that I would like to pinpoint in the book. is that Just as alternative development approaches our responses to the development orthodoxy of each historical time.

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Eija Ranta: They are also multiple and historically contingent.

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Eija Ranta: The importance and weight have varied

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Eija Ranta: in different times.

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Eija Ranta: Many so-called alternatives have become leading priorities for international development, policy and practice

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Eija Ranta: and radical political meanings attached to attentives are easily bypassed when adapted to development. Cooperation.

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with this I do not mean that all kinds of autonomous organizing or autonomous critical thinking and alternatives would be co-opted

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Eija Ranta: to some

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Eija Ranta: quite concerned. It's conservative in international institutions. But

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Eija Ranta: but some of them do. And I'm interested in how that happens. For example, currently, how development corporation actors talk of decolonizing development or

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Eija Ranta: or talk of when we were

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Eija Ranta: or ubuntu. So what does this do to those those conceptually assistance? What does it do to the radical discourse of thinking different the word about the work differently.

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Eija Ranta: So I'm interested in those mechanisms.

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Eija Ranta:  and Some of the pending questions there are, of course, many. This is absolutely totally work in progress at this moment.

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Eija Ranta: but

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Eija Ranta: Some of the questions. What unites those different errors when alternatives boom? Why, they both at certain times and do not on other times.

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Eija Ranta: And what are kind of the the societal conditions?

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Eija Ranta: the larger political, economic conditions of its time that that condition  the the boom of of alternative thinking.

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Eija Ranta: I think I will end here.

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Eija Ranta: and thank you so much for listening, and look forward to discussion later on.

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Eija Ranta: Thank you.

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Okay. So we now have hammered. So I need to

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think.

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thanks you. Now.

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Yeah, thanks so much. Mr. Go to his presentation.

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Yes.

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yeah. Same.

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Me? Just a little.

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Thank you.

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 yeah, thank you so much. Yeah. I am very thankful to you for coming to this session and also staying with us.

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also very thankful today to the presenters. I I just forgot to mention that they are also contributing to an edited book except A. I was writing her own book. I've got a lot actually to present 49 slides. I have to be super super strategy. And it's give a lot of details. So I leave some of that to you to Google and find out for yourself. Also, I have uploaded the Pdf version of these slides online, so you can download them.

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a. And also we can, of course, after the presentation, have some conversation So here is the the the topic or the title and After the acknowledgment that we forgot to make

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I'll read out to some of the earlier slides just to save time, and then Speak to the rest of them. Well, today, in my presentation I will be sharing a subset of the findings from a mixed method research project.

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The primary aim of this nationwide pilot project was originally to examine the perceptions of quality of life among transformative civil society and grassroots organizations in in the context of Australia during 2021, 22, however, it has yielded a wealth of information which I have here repurposed and reinterpreted. To examine the concept of blue reverse is fully reversality, empirically and critically.

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 okay, In the field of the post-development, post-colonial a scholarship. an increasingly influential concept has the image known as the Plunerus, the the new kid in the bloc.

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This concept, while it's still being debated. And hopefully this paper would contribute to that debate encapsulates the vast and diverse reality inhabited by a multitude of actors who are actively shaping alternative ways of existing knowing and living. Thus the plurivers challenges and and contrast with the prevailing global dominance of universalistic frameworks rooted in the nexus of Euro-centric anthropocentric patriarchal capitalist

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developmentalist and colonialist ontologies.

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however, it is important to acknowledge that as a theoretical construct the concept of polluters is based on a certain ontological epistemological assumptions if that makes sense, these assumptions can potentially limit our understanding of the intricate complexities and nuances of the real world.

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One notable aspect of the Pluribol or soilist view is its celebration of diversity, relationality, non-duality, and indigenity, thus ascribing an inherent

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in emancipatory capacity to what is defined as the plut universe, and the proliferation of politics. So you see that normative aspect of it. Hence the normative aspect of the concept can inadvertently shape the selection and interpretation of its descriptive aspects that everybody doing a research would have a didom of

334
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who I should include in the research as the actors of the verse.

335
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So the notion of Plutovers carries the inherent risk of inadvertently perpetuating a new form of dualism in the guise of non-duality.

336
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While this dualism manifests itself as a dichotomy between a potentially positive, potentially positive polluters versus and verses, an inherently negative negative negative negative universe. Such a perspective overlooks the complex mechanisms that interconnect and influence both realms, disregarding the mutual influences and interconnectedness between them

337
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by neglecting or underestimating the int the intricate relationship between the the good player polluters and the bad universe, we run the risk of oversimplifying the dynamics at play, and failing to grasp the interconnected nature of these contrasting orientations.

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It is thus critical to the system. The extent to which the pro-reverse concept effectively aids our comprehension of intricate

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dynamism, complexities, convergences, and divergence divergences within the multifaceted reality. It seeks to incompass the reality that I call here the actually existing flu rivers.

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Now, to make this assessment, we first need to scrutinize the notion of it of the of especially in terms of its possible empirical and and practical. Pitfalls! So, as you can see in that this slide I have listed 3 pitfalls, which are as follows.

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one extending the normative negation of universalism to the level of analysis. I mean, there's always we look at the literature. There's a confusion between the normative and the analytical. So if you extend that normative negation to the analysis of the reality, then we may run the risk of a kind of analytical blindness in understanding how capital constructs homogeneity to sustain its hegemony. And this may lead to and underestimating the as structural factors.

342
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that may actually, you know, almost universally facilitate the realization of solidarities and synergies across the differences in the poly rivers. So that's one risk

343
01:01:33.550 --> 01:01:58.299
or or pitfall. The second is the compartmental compartmentalization of live domains, or the so-called level of life, if you like, under capital, is very likely to be translated into the plutivers, resulting in its compartmentalized compartmentalization between the social, ecological, economic, and political disorders under the pelative polluter of early studies theory this compartmentalization

344
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may be mistakenly maybe celebrated as a form of diverse expression. And the third one is that the Clovis interpretations overlook the necessity of systemic solidarity, building intentional solidarity building across the differences for the actors, the differences for the polygers to bring about worldwide system exchange. This assumption resembles the new liberal ideology of

345
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less a fair that we wanted to oppose originally, as it assumes that solidarities would naturally emerge from the free market of interactions within a multitude of alternative movements.

346
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so that's the assumption that we would like to actually to, to, to, to, to to test, put to the test, you know, and see if, if, when we look at the when we compare the theory and and and the reality can be perhaps

347
01:02:54.320 --> 01:03:09.799
see, that's assumption going on or not, and that can actually translate into 3 research questions. So the first question and critical research question is, to what extent is this actually existing Plut of this?

348
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A compartmental compartment lies under the influence of the nexus of capital, modernity, coloniality. The second, what cognitive practical tendency exists within the Podulivers among the actors to overcome the estate of compartmentality.

349
01:03:25.570 --> 01:03:43.039
Well, a a new concept now is introduced. yes, and then, Ted, what social factors determine such tendencies among the actors? So these are the research questions that I have been trying to answer by drawing on the quantitative data we gathered.

350
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and

351
01:03:46.350 --> 01:03:48.360
yeah, I think. And then

352
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yes, and there. There is a number of methods, of course, but perhaps the most, the the least well received one is the network analysis. which I have adopted and in this project. And we can do network analysis in 2 ways. Normally, people investigate the already existing and established connections between the actors and the polluters.

353
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And in this case I have gone beyond that and what I'm using I call it a meta-mapping which is about exploring potential connections, going beyond the established connections and exploring latent possibilities for collaboration by uncut, by uncovering the shared aspirations, shared values and the struggles, and of of course, the differences that can serve as a common ground

354
01:04:37.480 --> 01:04:47.989
for solidarity. So this this kind of approach can acknowledge barriers, differences, and divergences to understand obstacles, and identify influential actors as well.

355
01:04:48.610 --> 01:04:55.549
I skipped this one. It's a little bit about, you know, benefits of such such an approach, or what what I call metal mapping.

356
01:04:55.560 --> 01:04:57.870
Well.

357
01:04:59.160 --> 01:05:27.540
now, when we want to do mapping, of course we need a train right? So every mapping project or excess necessitates a prior definition of of the train within which we seek to situate the actors of the pelvis. If the purpose is to explore how the Pluribus is compartmentalized gust, the train is the compartment, compartmentalized reality of social life, and the criterion for establishing the position of the actors

358
01:05:27.540 --> 01:05:37.260
in that train is the level of their level of being influenced by, and their tendency to overcome, the estate of compartmentality

359
01:05:37.260 --> 01:06:01.929
within the polar rivers. Therefore, it is essential to formulate a clear definition for this particular tendency. This definition serves as a conceptual gauge that guides situating the participants in mapping train. So under the title of the Communist tendency as a social indicator. In order to measure to what extent these people would like to overcome and go beyond the boundaries and cross

360
01:06:01.930 --> 01:06:16.049
work together across the differences I introduced this, I introduced this definition this way, a common extend. This is a meta- ideological tendency, relatively shared actors in the polynomials of transformative force

361
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that transcends the compartmentalization of more than human life into the categories of the economic, the ecological, the political, and the social, by translating the radical interdependence of our failing world civilization system into synergistic

362
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practical priorities. So if you wonder why common is the Perhaps the reason is that when we look at the Commons are, there are normally the best examples where we can find deep entanglement and the list amount of compartmentalization in the Commons. So that's why I chose the Board common common or communist.

363
01:06:53.740 --> 01:07:21.520
So that's So in order to choose our our participants. So we use that criteria of the. And we did this under the definition of the transformative forces, plurus initiatives that proactively envision, alternative modes of livelihood and sociability to neoliberal capitalism by valuing good life above profit, power, and so on and so forth. So we can see the dilemma, I mean, who? Who we can really include, and who we should do, who we should exclude from the research?

364
01:07:21.520 --> 01:07:45.270
I didn't want that. I don't have a very clear cut answer to that. So here, perhaps it visualizes this the the train. You can see this is the compart compartment flies. Unity of social documents we can discuss. Why, in this way it could be in other ways. But anyway. So we can. This is how the ability is comp from us into the equilibrium.

365
01:07:45.270 --> 01:08:03.149
community and ecology. But the point is that if you are going to investigate and situate the actors in this frame in terms of their Communist tendency, then the assumption is that, for instance, those who are in the economy section.

366
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and they want to equalize equally promoting social justice. Therefore they should be also be open to the idea of democratizing their economy as well ecologizing their economy as well, and socializing the economy as well. Why? Because the economy is very much deeply entangled to the ecology, to community and to the politics, and the same with the rest of that. So this model can actually give us a very

367
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can can actually translate into a number of statements that we can actually give to the and we have done that to the, to the participants and asking them to what ex. And you guys agree with this statement. So you can see 4 fields. We have 4 fields.

368
01:08:47.900 --> 01:09:11.629
4 processes of dec compartmentalization in each one of them 4 times 4, 16. So we have then, 16 statements that we developed that each one of them measures each one of these decompartmentalization process, for instance, in terms of the democratization of economy. We. We gave them a statement like this, and we asked them to see

369
01:09:11.650 --> 01:09:31.559
to what extent they see it related or relevant to their primary purpose of their work, their initiative, so promoting more democratic workplaces in terms of democratization, of political relations, promoting direct radical democracy, and so on. And so, unfortunately, I don't have time. But this is available online. You can have a look at this state, and there are 16 of them.

370
01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:54.850
and we also gathered a pretty comprehensive range of information about the qualities and features of these groups, organizations, initiatives, the types of organization and legal forms. We just wanted to know to what extent such factors would improve or increase or decrease their level of Communist tendency. A geographical, base and geographical reach.

371
01:09:54.850 --> 01:10:24.539
ultimate outcomes, for instance, in terms of all ultimate ascomes you can see. and this is this is sorted in terms of the most popular to the least popular. You can see, increased public well-being. Was. It was the top one. Decolonization and indigenous people's welding was the least popular among the members of this cohort. I should warn that this cohort may not be representing above. Of course, the entire pollut. But it's just a sample, and the results are more inductive rather than deductive.

372
01:10:24.540 --> 01:10:38.519
okay. in terms of the primary functions. And, as you can see, we classified them into this. The most popular is on the top. They, you know, community network solidarity computers. And the least popular one is a policy influencer

373
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in terms of the groupings, as you can see. in terms of the primary significant output they pursue in terms of the primary means they use in terms of primary service areas. there are. And here are the 16 statements, and it and, as you can see, the most popular statements! The ones that are most indoors is, for instance, are are at the

374
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so promoting favorite distribution of of opportunities and social economic justice, which is, which means equalizing the economy, is the most popular, followed by making the local national economy greener, which is the ecologization of the economy and the least popular one is is, for instance, making the political system more nature-centered among the and among the the

375
01:11:27.540 --> 01:11:42.599
participants promoting moral relationships is also another least popular. so. And here is the commonly saying, Here is the profile of the cohort that that tells you that not everyone is equally Communist.

376
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and and we had a kind of a kind of sizeable minority on the left-hand side that showed lower levels of Communist tendency and and and the and and and and the majority of almost on the and center right of the spectrum showing higher levels of Communist and tendency. So the question is that what makes people more or less Communist?

377
01:12:10.450 --> 01:12:38.710
we When we do, when we when we do this social network analysis and visualize it on interactive websites like Kumu. And we can actually relate each one of these organizations that that participated in the research. To those 16 statements. The statements are the orange ones, the the blue ones are the organizations, and you can see that which one has selected, what? Or or endorsed. more

378
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You can click on. For instance, the statement, if their statement, for instance, is about ecologizing the economy. You can discover the the names of those organizations that have have indoors at that statement more than others. And if you click on the for instance, the name of the organizations you can see and that each one of them what a statements are indoors by each one of them.

379
01:13:05.500 --> 01:13:32.509
But as you can see, this, this social network analysis is called 2 mode, we have 2 types of notes. They the organizations versus the statements. It doesn't tell us that about the interrelationships with the potential interrelations, that the the, the, the reason that we go for metro mapping, exploring. The potential is that in ability many organizations don't know about each other. They don't talk to each other.

380
01:13:32.510 --> 01:13:57.640
So when we put them together, then we can see that we can rank them, and the ones on the top with the higher score are the ones that have chosen a greater number of the statements in conjunction with the greater number of other cases. So that is called degree centrality. So one of the one of the measures in social network analysis.

381
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I escaped that it it. It shows actually that that the polluters is partly compartmentalized.

382
01:14:05.260 --> 01:14:29.609
and at least in the case of this sample. So these guys are more active in the economy and community, less active in ecology and politics, more involved in socialisation. And, O God and ecologisation, and less involved in equalisation and democratisation. And, as you can see, those who have received higher scores in terms of making the economy

383
01:14:29.610 --> 01:14:53.459
to be owned or controlled and influenced by the community, have, if you look at the left side, they have received the least, the the the lowest a score in in in terms of promoting a stronger ecological value. So you can see the ecology versus society compartmentalization showing up here, and this and the same the the other way around as well.

384
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And and and in terms of their ultimate purposes are sort of ultimate outcomes being pursued by them. And you can see they're they're more interested in ecological sustainability in this case increased public well-being, social justice, and much less in democratizing the economy and much, much less in decolonization, and the well-being of the indigenous to the extent that it doesn't appear here.

385
01:15:16.790 --> 01:15:46.190
But interestingly so, so, the decolonizationist is, is is indoors, but only as small, I mean, as their own ultimate outcome. But this is the very interesting part of this discovery that shows that actually that those that little minority of the groups that are involved in the decolonization as their ultimate refers, or have them and indigenous people, so that they are showing the highest amount of or level of communism.

386
01:15:46.210 --> 01:16:17.259
So if you want to promote communism, you want to run a conference, make connection, make sure that you you invite these guys. so. And then this is a for as I'm running out of the out of time, this is the least of all the variables, all the factors that positively contribute, or are are associated or correlated with with communism. It would be very interesting if you find time later to have a look, because there are very interesting stories there.

387
01:16:17.260 --> 01:16:33.199
and the ideologies as well. You may say what ideology would make people more common. It's actually, it's the other way around those who are more Communist indoors, a greater number of ideologies. It would be interesting to see what ideologies they endure actually, and what ideologies they don't

388
01:16:34.020 --> 01:16:59.019
and and that as the very last part, because this project was originally about the perceptions of of these people, about a good life or quality of life. we I did a bit of a a factor. Analysis. I found 5 5 categories, 5 approaches, 5 ways of conceptualizing good life. Unfortunately, one of them disappeared. I don't know.

389
01:16:59.020 --> 01:17:17.730
Okay. So the posthumanistic one, we're economistic, one common, communalistic, one autonomistic one and the other one was a utilitarian hedonistic approach to to perception of a good life. Now guess which one it shows higher level of of Communism.

390
01:17:17.730 --> 01:17:19.000
Can anyone do that

391
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which type of perception of of of life. Good life is more assisted and more positively associated with Communism. okay, the next graph would tell you definitely. The echoedomistic ones are negatively associated.

392
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and then the highest is the Communalist. Those who value convivianity and solidarity as part of the definition of good life, followed by the autonomous, the ones who who value autonomy, followed by the posthumanists who who include non-humans for. And then the last one is the utilitarian. Of course, hedonistic. Okay, I'm I'm done. Thank you so much for your for the intention

393
01:18:07.430 --> 01:18:31.300
haven't warned me that there were 60 or 70 slides So I kind of knew that was that that it's amazing. They're very good. So maybe we can sit at the front for questions. Just want to come up. and I'll move. Can I move this so that they can see us? So we'll see the audience and come, please come forward and using might because a couple of people online

394
01:18:32.640 --> 01:18:38.129
make a photo of this, may I just have a quick

395
01:18:38.400 --> 01:18:40.250
interpretation rather than

396
01:18:55.980 --> 01:18:58.379
how you should make this self-?

397
01:18:59.140 --> 01:19:29.070
Thank you so much. That was one of the details. I I couldn't call it. Yeah. Yeah. And it might be that if if people want to put a question they should come up here, because then at least, the people who are online can see the questioner we can't get the camera to. So you are, yeah, go ahead and answer, yeah, in in partnership with mean, our new economy network was really up

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01:19:29.070 --> 01:19:50.720
with the new new new economy network, Australia. That was the project we did with the in partnership with them, and together with them we developed a directory of their affiliates. But again we went beyond the the that directory, and we included as many organizations as we could find that would fit the definition

399
01:19:50.720 --> 01:20:20.129
And then it was about 500 of them, and then we invited them at Only 160 was a bad time covid time. So 106 responded 10 of them. The missing values was so high that we have to remove them. So we ended up finally analyzing 96 of them. But I can give you the link And in that link you can go and see the list of the names of those who actually help us by.

400
01:20:20.130 --> 01:20:44.580
Well, that's a good question. I, I would say, that's the case. Yeah, we we know that's one of the limitations, of course. So we're in the global north. And a lot of them are, are very few involved in the indigenous, or for being themselves From the indigenous, but it still we could see that promoting indigenous well-being. Was very much, positively associated with Communists, even among these white middle class people.

401
01:20:44.720 --> 01:20:50.029
Yeah, okay, thank you very much for a very interesting session.

402
01:20:50.150 --> 01:21:01.439
I actually have a question for all the presenters, and I'm wondering whether we can clarify the meaning of plurivars. And let me start with the last presenter.

403
01:21:01.620 --> 01:21:06.509
because n your empirical findings are really interesting, deeply interesting.

404
01:21:06.650 --> 01:21:15.160
But then I was left a little bit puzzled in terms of how you defined flavors in terms of

405
01:21:15.240 --> 01:21:19.299
like an entanglement of different spheres

406
01:21:19.350 --> 01:21:33.620
of life on your different subsistence of the society. As a word, let's say, and my understanding of Plutivas is actually closer to a Damian at the first speaker's definition. So it's about like how different

407
01:21:33.640 --> 01:21:38.890
people a groups of people have different ontologies. And even beyond that.

408
01:21:38.900 --> 01:21:47.070
you use the word Wilding, right? So it's not simply like an I have different ontology than you.

409
01:21:47.220 --> 01:21:52.990
Possibly we live in 2 different wars right? 2 different universes.

410
01:21:53.340 --> 01:22:06.180
So it's a little bit like, you know, a multi-brass in quantum physics. So then, you know, people like Latour, they raise this question, how can we actually go about like unify these 2

411
01:22:06.210 --> 01:22:08.850
different universes.

412
01:22:08.870 --> 01:22:24.440
So in a way, you know, it's beyond epistemology, and it's more about on television. But even wording. Then the last speaker, as you know your analysis is very, very interesting, but at the same time you use

413
01:22:24.570 --> 01:22:26.119
network organizes

414
01:22:26.230 --> 01:22:32.190
in a way you use this, a single epistemology. Then, like an all

415
01:22:32.690 --> 01:22:37.579
various ontologies, and in wordings that you are subjects.

416
01:22:37.800 --> 01:22:39.100
my half.

417
01:22:39.290 --> 01:22:45.340
in a way I can collapsed into a single representation of.

418
01:22:45.770 --> 01:22:57.479
So what's happening? And I don't know how to make sense of it, but it's just like deeply puzzling to me. So what's really going on with the flavors, so I invite

419
01:22:57.530 --> 01:23:02.710
present us to help me. Better understand exactly how to he us work.

420
01:23:02.990 --> 01:23:06.500
Okay, we'll maybe just go in order of the

421
01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:11.139
of the speakers that you might comment first.

422
01:23:15.980 --> 01:23:27.370
everybody a chance to respond to that question if you want to. Yeah. So thank you very much for the question. I will try to to bring in some clarification.

423
01:23:29.180 --> 01:23:46.139
I I think, what what you said about the 2 of us. then it's more. But like the psychological world and and our psychic systems. We we are. Every human being is in he or his own world. And then we speak of of society that

424
01:23:46.320 --> 01:23:53.619
yeah, I'm thinking in terms of often because woman and society as a system of communication. So basically.

425
01:23:53.820 --> 01:23:58.690
the social communication society keeps making rough distinctions and references

426
01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:06.489
generates meaning to it. And this creates world. But basic society describes

427
01:24:06.570 --> 01:24:15.920
through a communication that we are doing here now in this conversation, and that is a bicycle break. It's what and it reproduces or transforms descriptions.

428
01:24:16.180 --> 01:24:23.509
typically that is socially uploaded or consulting to exist approaches. But so surely the social of knowledge. So you.

429
01:24:23.650 --> 01:24:27.129
based on this, we can. I think there is,

430
01:24:28.930 --> 01:24:44.380
the concept of pre-reverse questions, the pretence of universal validity, of a certain system of reference which is based on the modern scientific universalism, basically, which tended to

431
01:24:44.580 --> 01:24:47.150
 Whoa

432
01:24:48.650 --> 01:24:54.629
describe. I don't know the existence of spirits in the forest as a belief.

433
01:24:55.200 --> 01:24:59.779
Some some kind of analytics belief that? That's so. Yeah.

434
01:24:59.910 --> 01:25:01.040
But then.

435
01:25:01.370 --> 01:25:06.399
crew, reverse is. The concept criticizes this universalism by saying.

436
01:25:06.460 --> 01:25:16.599
Well, look as a social context. Other people describe these spirits not as the belief, but as beings that are part of their world.

437
01:25:16.670 --> 01:25:18.669
so that is a.

438
01:25:19.110 --> 01:25:21.019
And this is where you see that

439
01:25:21.060 --> 01:25:33.570
different worlds coexist and and relate to one another. I don't know. It just clarifies a little bit. This is a concept, and just give me the opportunity to react to one

440
01:25:33.590 --> 01:25:39.700
one statement you made about this hidden duality

441
01:25:40.080 --> 01:25:42.870
academic concept, and this course will improve us.

442
01:25:43.050 --> 01:25:46.729
 the way I understand it.

443
01:25:47.080 --> 01:25:55.279
Modern Universalism is for the modern world that thinks of itself as the one in that it

444
01:25:57.560 --> 01:26:03.390
on purpose, demography. It's just one word among others like it doesn't mean that it's

445
01:26:03.510 --> 01:26:05.630
so one versus all the other

446
01:26:06.220 --> 01:26:14.820
and just one world in the social, cultural evolution of humanities, we would say, and the hegemonic and dominant world

447
01:26:15.060 --> 01:26:17.140
because of anything.

448
01:26:17.150 --> 01:26:24.160
Okay, thanks. So would you like to respond to the question?

449
01:26:24.790 --> 01:26:43.050
Anja Habersang: yeah, thank you very much. thank you also very much for this. we thought provoking a question. I think it's so difficult to answer, because I'm not very sure that we can actually find a definition for purely us

450
01:26:43.050 --> 01:26:58.829
Anja Habersang: if we take seriously that The notion actually recognizes what you also expressed that there have multiple knowledge, ontologies and world that exist. And so how can we actually find a universally clear cut

451
01:26:58.830 --> 01:27:09.499
Anja Habersang: definition of all of this diversity. So that's actually just what what came to my mind whether we can actually really define

452
01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:24.260
Anja Habersang: if we don't want to violate again what we are trying to express or be more sensitive to. Yeah, that would also be, yeah. It's another question.

453
01:27:24.510 --> 01:27:26.470
Thank you.

454
01:27:27.320 --> 01:27:34.039
It resists definition. Okay? So aye is, I'm so I'm mispronouncing you again. So would you like to respond to that?

455
01:27:35.190 --> 01:27:38.639
Eija Ranta: Thanks. Yes. My name is pronunciate. A yeah.

456
01:27:38.700 --> 01:27:42.309
Eija Ranta: Hey? Yeah, I apologize. Yes.

457
01:27:42.570 --> 01:27:51.280
Eija Ranta: I am personally not so knowledgeable about the concept of Florida. So I think Hamlet is better.

458
01:27:51.430 --> 01:27:57.450
Eija Ranta: It would be. It's better if Hamid explains that bit more.

459
01:27:57.470 --> 01:27:59.929
Eija Ranta: I

460
01:28:01.110 --> 01:28:06.580
Eija Ranta: I I have. first time that I

461
01:28:06.930 --> 01:28:15.729
Eija Ranta:  I heard about that concept was in early 2,000 when I worked with indigenous movements in Bolivia

462
01:28:15.900 --> 01:28:24.610
Eija Ranta: and in Latin America. At that time many movements started to talk of glory versa in Spanish

463
01:28:24.740 --> 01:28:28.470
Eija Ranta: and the idea was to

464
01:28:29.500 --> 01:28:36.540
Eija Ranta: emphasize the importance of a local knowledge of indigenous epistemologies.

465
01:28:37.190 --> 01:28:56.689
Eija Ranta: the diversity of perspectives, and for demanding respect for this diversity of perspectives. So my own as I come from anthropology background, I'm almost always interested in how people in different times and different places

466
01:28:56.810 --> 01:28:59.799
Eija Ranta: conceptualize this concept. So

467
01:28:59.910 --> 01:29:12.140
Eija Ranta: for me, it's difficult to take a stance on or define in a rigid way what this concept would would mean. But

468
01:29:12.490 --> 01:29:17.640
Eija Ranta: maybe just this reflection from from Bolivia.

469
01:29:18.140 --> 01:29:19.180
Eija Ranta: Thank you.

470
01:29:19.750 --> 01:29:24.790
Would you like to come up so I can see you? It can't be seen with you over there?

471
01:29:25.050 --> 01:29:26.220
Oh.

472
01:29:26.360 --> 01:29:56.110
yeah, I I think I agree with with the other participants, the contributors that the the concept is pretty loosely defined. I I search the literature myself in the preparation of this this presentation. but we have a of of course, a much better. person to answer that question. Ariel Saleh is, is one of the editors of the book. pollutri versus with us also. Terry over there is one of the contributors to the book.

473
01:29:56.110 --> 01:30:23.720
so they can correct us. But When I searched the book for instance, this is this is what I found, and it was one of the slides. I I escaped so with a they say, a Pluto reverse a word where many words feet as appatisla says. Of course All people's words should coexist with the dignity and peace without being subjected to diminishment, exploitation, and misery. A previousal word overcomes petrial car attitudes. so

474
01:30:24.172 --> 01:30:47.719
you can see it should it should, and the Pluto's world overcomes. So there is a. There is a putin-halimancipitory project in there, patriarchal attitudes, racism and cast as other forms of discrimination. Here people relearn, how? How are they going to learn what it means to be humble, part of nature.

475
01:30:47.730 --> 01:30:53.779
living behind narrow anthropo sending. So you can see, this is a concept of

476
01:30:53.780 --> 01:31:18.340
this. This is a concept that is, is, it has a dual function, at least to the extent that is defined here. One is normative and and and and I'm not criticizing for for that, because this is not the only concept that has has the duality of normative and and descriptive. Think of, for instance, ratification by, or value in value to remarks value that they all.

477
01:31:18.340 --> 01:31:42.550
So the the point I was going to make is that while we're still waiting for a more clearer definition, or debating the definition of the plurigas, you have to be careful and and cautious about this, the the consequences of such dual characters when they are translated into into the realization or or comprehension of the reality.

478
01:31:42.650 --> 01:32:05.520
and and yes, you're right, you know, when you said that. well, the universe is is one of them. But again, this is a bit of a ambiguity. I found in the literature that although it's one of them but we we hardly bash it it it it's it's the one that we actually use as a criteria to to define. What Universalism is not so clear. Polluting pul universalism is

479
01:32:05.520 --> 01:32:21.059
erez agmoni is what universalism is not. So. yeah, I mean, again, I started to disappoint you, like everybody else. But it's not the only concept that is loosely defined, and the source of science is full of such concepts. 101.

480
01:32:21.250 --> 01:32:27.860
Do you like to come up to here? So it can be seen? Yeah.

481
01:32:30.879 --> 01:32:34.889
I have a few questions stored up, but I won't throw them in yet.

482
01:32:38.520 --> 01:32:40.719
Thanks so much. It's just so they can see you.

483
01:32:44.570 --> 01:32:50.969
Yeah, thank you very much. My name is Terry Lay. I'm living in now. Melbourne. At the moment.

484
01:32:51.020 --> 01:33:05.490
 I found this a very fascinating set of talks and and I particularly found an interesting that the contrast between the 2, the 2 talks on the screen

485
01:33:05.510 --> 01:33:13.330
and and Hamid's discussion at the end. And to me. I suppose.

486
01:33:13.800 --> 01:33:43.180
I think, what we become aware of through through the first 2 talks are reminded of is probably a better term is is that there is there? There? There is a if we, if we're looking for an end to a post capitalist society, we have to recognize that that's coming out of a diversity of social movements in different countries. And it's inevitable that they have different ways of conceiving the world, and that there there is a plurality of ontologies that's inevitable. And it seems unlikely

487
01:33:43.180 --> 01:34:10.029
to me that environmentalists in in the global North will will suddenly give up their their, their adherence to science and the understanding of nature through science. And that's not probably not going to happen, and it's probably not going to happen. The indigenous people in Australia or South America are going to give up the anontologies they have. And and so we we need to to look forward to some some kind of way of of conceiving post capitalism that takes that into account.

488
01:34:10.100 --> 01:34:38.130
 What what I'd also say is, I think, that Anna and Anya in particular but talked about this in in relationship to Boy and Vivier, the the sense that there is a link between patriarchy, colonialism, racism, and capitalism, and these linked, I think that is absolutely right, and that is, that is one of the insights of of of of the plural perverse movement, you know, and

489
01:34:38.700 --> 01:34:47.490
what I what I would also add to that I mean, in my view. At any rate. I think, in terms of a post-capitalist society.

490
01:34:48.540 --> 01:35:03.250
I think to some extent we understand what has to be done in terms of patriarchy. We kind of understand what has to be done in terms of racism, I think, where we actually disagree with the where the left generally disagrees, is in terms of the economy, and that a lot of

491
01:35:03.250 --> 01:35:26.339
yeah, the dominant view in in. So the social sciences that we're getting in this conference is that we need to return to the welfare state the dominant view we're getting. The environment movement is we need to control the market economy through much more rigorous regulation and maybe through degrowth, through through government regulation. I think what the pluralverse movement suggests is an alternative to that in which

492
01:35:26.340 --> 01:35:48.779
we don't. We stop using money altogether, and we develop a society of of of the gift where mutual aid and and the term that that Hamid use of Communism, and I think we have to see that as an economic, in a sense, it's an economic recipe that has to go along with these other struggles, anti-colonialists, anti-patriarchal, and so on.

493
01:35:51.250 --> 01:35:52.929
Thanks so much.

494
01:35:53.530 --> 01:35:57.129
I follow on from that to anybody else. Would anybody else like to?

495
01:35:58.050 --> 01:36:10.110
And just really to continue that discussion? and I just around the question and referring back to what we were talking about before, just around the question of incorporation. And it really

496
01:36:10.170 --> 01:36:26.009
 it sort of speaks to actually all of the talks for me. There's a theme there about the certainly in terms of thinking of bio-piracy and the extent to which that challenge, if you like that alternative perspective is

497
01:36:26.130 --> 01:36:28.460
incorporated into the

498
01:36:28.860 --> 01:36:30.840
modes of governance, you know.

499
01:36:31.100 --> 01:36:38.429
 in a very contrary way, as you highlighted in many ways when Revere has been.

500
01:36:38.480 --> 01:36:41.970
you know, appropriated, incorporated in a variety of ways.

501
01:36:42.160 --> 01:36:46.450
I can't wait to see how

502
01:36:46.540 --> 01:36:55.640
the peer-reverse is going to be appropriated. So so the question really is.

503
01:36:55.870 --> 01:37:02.230
And this relates, of course, to the discussion about how

504
01:37:02.590 --> 01:37:04.300
alternative development

505
01:37:04.630 --> 01:37:21.470
challenges have emerged, which is the flip side of that story is also how the development of the development challenges have been incorporated and neutered if you like. The radicalism removed. I remember Peter's years ago. He had this

506
01:37:21.550 --> 01:37:45.459
nice term mainstream alternative development which was a background, of course, was mad So these modes of incorporation create contradictory modes of governance. And then, as you pointed out deeply. flawed. So just that just that, and how how that can be addressed.

507
01:37:45.480 --> 01:37:52.539
how this kind of more holistic radical challenge, for instance, from the pure reverse that

508
01:37:52.620 --> 01:38:02.340
that you outlined, which I found fascinating, particularly the third dimension. I have to say which I love it. If you could talk a bit more about that in terms of the third dimension of terr aside.

509
01:38:02.790 --> 01:38:16.830
 I found it very interesting. But yeah, so just any thoughts on incorporation, and obviously in relation to the previous contribution.

510
01:38:18.400 --> 01:38:19.150
Thank you.

511
01:38:20.040 --> 01:38:26.840
And again, it. It might be better if you come up, and at least the people online can see you when you respond there. Yeah.

512
01:38:31.640 --> 01:38:37.770
okay, so so thank you very much for for this very thoughtful comment in question.

513
01:38:38.480 --> 01:38:55.999
I will react to that, of course, we, we see a lot of those appropriations in corporations relating to semantics of transformation, with like just transition, sustainability transition, which are extremely mainstream. And actually one

514
01:38:56.170 --> 01:39:06.239
we are entrenching. We are strengthening the existing institutions and epistemologies, etc.

515
01:39:06.350 --> 01:39:16.290
And I think this is inevitable in situations of conflict and struggle between

516
01:39:16.310 --> 01:39:18.500
a system that is being

517
01:39:18.520 --> 01:39:30.960
a question fundamentally, and that tries to relieve it. And those who criticize the system try to elaborate alternatives.

518
01:39:32.270 --> 01:39:35.109
What might be changing. But this is not

519
01:39:35.270 --> 01:39:38.600
open hypothesis, or it's open to discussion.

520
01:39:38.640 --> 01:39:52.299
 would be that. And I'm coming back to this idea of metamorphosis. It's that if we take a long-term historical perspective, we could say that

521
01:39:52.760 --> 01:40:02.969
from the late eighteenth century onwards we have, like the formation of modern world society, like the nation, states of capitalist economies.

522
01:40:03.140 --> 01:40:04.250
Yeah.

523
01:40:04.390 --> 01:40:20.949
we built the modern World society, and there is a kind of historical arc of 250 years or so after the World War I, the great acceleration and then globalisation project in the 1,900 ninetys. And the idea would be that

524
01:40:21.560 --> 01:40:29.760
that we are currently entering into a new historical period, or a condition where the system itself

525
01:40:29.980 --> 01:40:43.530
 has increasing difficulties of externalizing its side. In fact, this is the idea that scientifically become main effect. And when this happens, maybe the possibilities for the

526
01:40:43.850 --> 01:40:49.510
dominant social order to appropriate an incorporate critique.

527
01:40:49.550 --> 01:41:15.800
it becomes increasingly difficult because it's become becoming increasingly difficult to to take a very simple example. But you look at climate policies, or of to German government, or as a State, it's it's so obvious that you know they they they they formulate or introduce their climate policy. And it's already outdated. It's it's a day afterwards. It's all already criticized. And and it's and then it gets diluted. And so so so it's a hiding.

528
01:41:15.800 --> 01:41:24.139
Basically, the inefficiency or keeping radical criticism at bay becomes increasingly difficult.

529
01:41:24.170 --> 01:41:26.610
It doesn't mean that it is a

530
01:41:27.120 --> 01:41:46.459
transition from A to B, but I think that's that there's a kind of polarization, and that antagonisms increase. But I think there's something new there. But it's it's it's difficult to to to grasp. But to conceptualize and and to yeah, because I think we are also in the middle of it right now. But this would be my reaction to it to your comments. Okay.

531
01:41:48.770 --> 01:41:53.100
thanks very much. Anybody else online would like to respond?

532
01:41:53.830 --> 01:41:54.760
I

533
01:41:56.670 --> 01:41:59.170
to about incorporation? No.

534
01:42:00.850 --> 01:42:03.789
Are there any other questions?

535
01:42:04.850 --> 01:42:06.529
Yes. Oh, yeah, thank you.

536
01:42:12.670 --> 01:42:27.360
Coming up here. This is only half a sentence. But I would be interested to hear from each of the speakers just a one-line reflection on the question of gender in relation to perverse.

537
01:42:29.820 --> 01:42:34.279
We'll begin with the reverse. I think so. Hamid want to say.

538
01:42:34.520 --> 01:42:35.390
yes.

539
01:42:35.560 --> 01:42:40.770
I'm divorced. Yeah, okay, yeah.

540
01:42:43.310 --> 01:43:09.290
but there's a lot of emphasis in in the universe. So this perspective in terms of the intersection of the animal in in there. There's a lot of estrous on the issue of intersectionality in the Pluto for the reversalist perspective. Right? And gender comes up quite often the the emphasis on care, ethics of care.

541
01:43:09.370 --> 01:43:14.880
So how are you going to get it in around here. Not the solution.

542
01:43:15.110 --> 01:43:31.100
Well, I'm not a defender of that. That's what I'm just saying. That intersectionality. I have seen it in the literature in the Plut of this research are being raised, despite the fact that it's that we should be concerned about its origin, which is Liberalist, and I agree with you absolutely

543
01:43:31.100 --> 01:43:46.760
So we certainly need in the in the Plutive. I don't I? Possibly as a as a kind of incend insider critique, we we should certainly raise that question always, especially in in relation to gender.

544
01:43:46.790 --> 01:43:50.450
Yeah, thanks. That one online who would like to respond.

545
01:43:51.550 --> 01:43:52.539
it's a real

546
01:43:53.050 --> 01:43:55.530
Eija Ranta: yeah. I can start

547
01:43:55.610 --> 01:44:07.969
Eija Ranta: absolutely it. That's so important. I think some of the most interesting activism and autonomous organizing now

548
01:44:08.060 --> 01:44:11.810
Eija Ranta: is happening through the women's

549
01:44:12.120 --> 01:44:14.590
Eija Ranta: women's organizing.

550
01:44:15.650 --> 01:44:21.959
Eija Ranta: And we see that in many parts of Latin America.

551
01:44:23.350 --> 01:44:29.830
Eija Ranta: and I think we see it also in many post extractivist movements

552
01:44:29.930 --> 01:44:39.750
Eija Ranta: Many indigenous women are also at the front line, resisting or opposing extractivist projects

553
01:44:39.990 --> 01:44:47.959
Eija Ranta: indigenous women face the the bad negative consequences of extractivism

554
01:44:48.290 --> 01:44:50.949
Eija Ranta: the most in their everyday lives

555
01:44:51.420 --> 01:44:58.289
Eija Ranta: through the destruction of the environment waters forests, and so on.

556
01:44:58.720 --> 01:45:07.100
Eija Ranta: The Sami research around a cocaine. she's from here from Finland. She has, for example.

557
01:45:07.110 --> 01:45:09.570
Eija Ranta: right in

558
01:45:10.000 --> 01:45:20.529
Eija Ranta: about how indigenous women are also within indigenous movements, that they are the ones who really safeguard

559
01:45:20.600 --> 01:45:32.700
Eija Ranta:  the ideas of more harmonious nature relationships. And this conviviality

560
01:45:33.580 --> 01:45:38.139
Eija Ranta: between humans and non-human. So I see

561
01:45:39.080 --> 01:45:40.240
Eija Ranta: as

562
01:45:40.330 --> 01:45:42.950
Eija Ranta: that it's really essential.

563
01:45:43.440 --> 01:45:51.070
Eija Ranta: It is really essential in in many kinds of alternative movements and autonomous organizing.

564
01:45:51.340 --> 01:45:54.100
Eija Ranta: Right? Now. Thank you.

565
01:45:55.640 --> 01:45:58.520
Thanks very much. Yeah. Go go ahead. And

566
01:45:59.160 --> 01:46:10.189
Anja Habersang: yeah, thank you very much. Just very briefly, As I was contacting research with the indigenous women's movement for one movie and Argentina

567
01:46:10.450 --> 01:46:34.560
Anja Habersang: I could just briefly mention that they usually Many participants said that they do not identify, for example, as feminists, because they say, Well, of course, it's rather a theory from the global north. And the problem with that is that it reduces the analysis to analyzing the oppression of to the oppression of people.

568
01:46:34.980 --> 01:46:51.029
Anja Habersang: and not taking into account. this relation of perspective, and the body territory and nexus so. But besides that, and they have a very strong, it's their amic perspective to emphasize the intersectionality

569
01:46:51.580 --> 01:47:17.200
Anja Habersang: of different categories, but also as a set of different systems, of of oppression, such as such as capitalism, colonialism, and patriarchy. So it's really there in the perspective that when they discuss clearly alternative that they bring this in as very, a very strong, strong dimension of of

570
01:47:17.230 --> 01:47:34.600
Anja Habersang: analysis. So I would say, if we take seriously the perspectives of of the movements, and then it should be a very important part of the period. Virtual discussing to to discuss the intersectional perspective.

571
01:47:35.930 --> 01:47:37.419
Thanks so much. And

572
01:47:37.500 --> 01:47:40.999
that's good.

573
01:47:43.080 --> 01:47:51.900
Yeah. Speaking out the last word on this very difficult question is, quite a responsibility. I will just say

574
01:47:51.940 --> 01:47:58.230
you have 2 thoughts on this one. Is that thinking in terms of universe is all

575
01:47:58.620 --> 01:48:17.099
it is, it is highly dynamic and and categories, including gender and general relations, keep being discussed, etc. So there is no like. It's not something fixed. But I think that, looking at the role of gender in the blue reverse, that not to look at it, we should

576
01:48:17.130 --> 01:48:22.919
you use this distinction, you might be trans. The descriptive

577
01:48:23.730 --> 01:48:48.180
a meaning of pre-reverse and the normative project related to it. I think that in terms of description it would, it would be to say how how gender, as a category, and gender relations are maybe sought and organized differently in different worlds, in different communities, and how, but but not only like, not in terms of like traditional communities and and and modernity, but in terms of

578
01:48:48.420 --> 01:48:50.240
all the walls

579
01:48:50.270 --> 01:48:54.770
existing on earth, to also today like

580
01:48:55.260 --> 01:49:00.149
and then relating to the normative emancipatory

581
01:49:00.210 --> 01:49:09.359
projects related to to privilege. I think that it's a patriarchy being one system of Domination

582
01:49:09.750 --> 01:49:22.570
emancipatory project tends to to be against all kinds of systems of domination, including then naturally. And this is where genderizing plays a role in so many different contexts and ways.

583
01:49:22.950 --> 01:49:27.840
yeah, since this would be my, my, my view on it. But it's very general.

584
01:49:28.540 --> 01:49:44.450
2 points can I make sure? But we do have to finish one. I wish we had time, because I took note of the things that I discovered that interviewed our presentations, which was very interesting.

585
01:49:44.450 --> 01:49:54.039
But unfortunately, there I go if you have time for that. But in relation to your question and comment, it reminded me of our conversation between

586
01:49:54.040 --> 01:50:15.920
Marxists and Cluttivers. So this, which doesn't happen quite often, except one that I do since we found which is in the Nordic geography. It's been. It's between Jason more and and a few pollutable sales. I don't know if anybody has seen that. That's a very interesting one. I can actually inspire part of my investigation, I said, oh, you were definitely

587
01:50:16.560 --> 01:50:17.770
vicinity.

588
01:50:17.970 --> 01:50:21.040
Oh, okay, I'll send it to you.

589
01:50:21.110 --> 01:50:35.000
Yeah. Okay, well, yeah. And thanks everyone for for you know, being here for staying here and participating. And, thanks to the panelists, of course, thanks so much.