WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:17.450 So so let's let's do the following, you know what this session is about. It's about transformative research and higher education. And then we're going to look especially. Vera will provoke discussion 2 00:00:18.010 --> 00:00:35.990 about the world. Social forum in a provocative way, is that or not. And then we will address this issue as well. But the focus is transformative research and education. It's a joint session of Rc. 10 Rc. 26. 3 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:44.149 So whoever is whoever that's who we are, we are about for 4 00:00:44.400 --> 00:00:49.930 you're going to help us, but you're welcome to join us if you want to. What's your name? 5 00:00:54.140 --> 00:00:55.320 So 6 00:00:56.070 --> 00:01:00.700 so for the old-timers, you know who I am 7 00:01:00.810 --> 00:01:06.249 for the newcomers. Hello, newcomers! Hello, newcomers! 8 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:18.450 Hello! Yeah. I am as a real, but I am originally from Peru. and I'm surviving in Sweden in the Swedish exile for 37 years. 9 00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:22.529 So that's amazing. I mean, it's really a record. 10 00:01:22.780 --> 00:01:27.229 Yes, to survive, I mean, in Sweden. 11 00:01:27.250 --> 00:01:31.660 So there were places on Earth. Yes. 12 00:01:32.770 --> 00:01:42.660 we have until what is it? 1112, 30. Yes, it's about 2 h session. 13 00:01:42.750 --> 00:01:44.020 but 14 00:01:44.210 --> 00:01:46.960 so why don't we 15 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:49.800 take 1520 min 16 00:01:50.370 --> 00:02:05.039 to present our papers, where just 3 papers, Alberto, Sasaii, Alberta, Alberto, and the second paper, Alberto Yarikovsky, in Bonos Islands. Hello, Hello. 17 00:02:05.470 --> 00:02:14.960 Alberta! Well, we will begin with who is here right now. This moment 18 00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:21.789 I don't see the same of presenters. So, Vera, we will 19 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:25.340 give us 1520 min. 20 00:02:25.670 --> 00:02:33.640 So to the main provocation, the statement questions what we need to say, and 21 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:39.210 then we'll go on to dialogue, to to converse 22 00:02:39.320 --> 00:02:42.350 and learn from each other. Okay. 23 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:51.270 So this being said, maybe I start because this is the main focus of the presentation. 24 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:56.079 and I really didn't get your name. But thank you for helping us. 25 00:02:57.160 --> 00:02:59.090 Oliver. Oliver. 26 00:02:59.190 --> 00:03:03.640 could you bring my first slide. 27 00:03:13.910 --> 00:03:16.480 let me say something else. 28 00:03:16.540 --> 00:03:28.160 We organized this session. and we worked together this presentation with Eric Lindholt. 29 00:03:28.590 --> 00:03:30.159 We have been 30 00:03:30.350 --> 00:03:38.320 colleagues doing collaborative dialogue, research, and education 31 00:03:38.370 --> 00:03:40.720 since 1982 32 00:03:41.630 --> 00:03:48.529 Eric should be here. But he's traveling right now for their life. I hope he's with us listening. 33 00:03:48.900 --> 00:03:52.180 I pray to find him alive. When I go back to Sweden. 34 00:03:53.170 --> 00:04:05.370 he could make it, but he's here with us, and we're thinking about him and sending him good wipes he's been. He is my brother. We have 35 00:04:05.650 --> 00:04:07.670 grown together 36 00:04:07.980 --> 00:04:10.840 very close to his children, his wife. 37 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:17.589 and everyone in research committee can really love him. 38 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:28.440 It's a great job, so we hope he makes it. This being said about dialogue as a 39 00:04:29.530 --> 00:04:42.070 a participant has enabled cross captioning. Who can see this? I don't know what this is, Oliver Oliver. Maybe it's best that you stay with me to avoid this technical. 40 00:04:43.690 --> 00:04:47.650 whatever it is. Okay. So 41 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:55.889 the presentation and Oliver. Tell me, please, 5 min before, because I want to just take 20 min. Yes, so 42 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:08.370 dialogue as a social research, orientation and method within the frameworks of interactive collaboratory and participatory action research. 43 00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:11.350 My platform. 44 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:16.479 even though my age suggests that I should be watching TV. 45 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.110 I'm 82 going to 83. 46 00:05:19.430 --> 00:05:27.760 But I'm fortunately affiliate to Samos, the center for Environmental and development studies. 47 00:05:28.450 --> 00:05:43.389 It's basically an international. We have some few Swedish students. It's so popular that the conservative university authorities don't close it because they will lose money, otherwise they will close it immediately. So 48 00:05:43.930 --> 00:05:49.939 Eric is at Melan Darling University. He's 49 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:53.100 active in 2 associations. We have. 50 00:05:53.220 --> 00:05:55.050 One is Sarah 51 00:05:55.110 --> 00:05:58.350 Swedish Interactive Research 52 00:05:58.510 --> 00:06:05.910 Association and Spark Swedish Participatory Action Research Community. 53 00:06:06.870 --> 00:06:09.940 I am a member of both. I am at the board of the first 54 00:06:10.130 --> 00:06:12.960 and just to make 55 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:14.689 find distinction 56 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.560 interactive. 57 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:21.869 research was done by a group of colleagues 58 00:06:21.900 --> 00:06:33.109 that thought, that action, research was too action oriented, and they wanted to play the academic game. And so they said, We will be a little bit more academic. The action researches because they 59 00:06:33.200 --> 00:06:41.409 came to be to at least like myself. Yes. so. But it's the same. We're cousins, close cousins. 60 00:06:42.410 --> 00:06:49.330 I like to begin whatever I say, contextualizing 61 00:06:49.660 --> 00:06:51.610 the yeah. 62 00:06:53.410 --> 00:06:59.179 problematizing the context. We are in. So what is the context 63 00:06:59.580 --> 00:07:04.940 that frame's presence and participation in this venture? 64 00:07:04.970 --> 00:07:07.220 Well, you could say, the world. 65 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:13.830 the global landscape is in a mess. It's a multi. 66 00:07:14.050 --> 00:07:16.130 No, Timothy. 67 00:07:19.750 --> 00:07:21.600 multi- 68 00:07:22.860 --> 00:07:34.200 where you touch it hurts. It's climate crisis. It's not climate change anymore. It's a climate emergency situation. 69 00:07:35.110 --> 00:07:36.460 It's a 70 00:07:37.840 --> 00:07:39.890 tremendous 71 00:07:40.370 --> 00:07:42.470 growing fast. 72 00:07:43.660 --> 00:07:48.040 accelerated gap between rich and poor. 73 00:07:49.390 --> 00:07:53.970 It's a problem as we intend to look and discuss. 74 00:07:54.410 --> 00:08:00.000 It's a dramatic, humanitarian 75 00:08:00.630 --> 00:08:06.670 refugee catastrophe with about 70 80 million 76 00:08:07.400 --> 00:08:15.560 people, a Saskatchewan. expelled, pushed from their homes and home countries 77 00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:19.030 drawn in every day every week 78 00:08:19.150 --> 00:08:24.579 in the Mediterranean, trying to come to Fortress Europe. That doesn't want. 79 00:08:24.710 --> 00:08:27.290 Then that pays 80 00:08:27.590 --> 00:08:35.560 authoritarian, corrupt leaders like I was going to say moody, but thinking of Ergodon. 81 00:08:36.490 --> 00:08:38.590 they also pay billions. 82 00:08:38.630 --> 00:08:43.529 So Morocco, to stop these people from trying to come 83 00:08:43.970 --> 00:08:50.279 to a region of the world that is rich and privileged and doesn't want to share 84 00:08:50.800 --> 00:08:52.510 the privileges. 85 00:08:52.670 --> 00:08:57.900 And today the number one issue 86 00:08:58.390 --> 00:09:05.140 in the global agenda seems to be immigration refugees 87 00:09:06.300 --> 00:09:16.059 fear to refugees, xenophobia, racism, nazism. And you have it all over the place, including South Africa. 88 00:09:16.470 --> 00:09:22.659 To my surprise, I thought South Africa would be more generous with immigrants from Africa. 89 00:09:22.810 --> 00:09:23.740 It's not 90 00:09:24.870 --> 00:09:32.629 so. This is the context. It's a problematic context. And then we want to speak about dialogue. Does it make sense? 91 00:09:34.290 --> 00:09:36.490 When we look at context. 92 00:09:36.550 --> 00:09:40.950 I will invite Paulo to be with us. 93 00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:43.389 and parlor would say. 94 00:09:43.690 --> 00:09:44.670 Hmm! 95 00:09:45.800 --> 00:09:51.800 It's very important to learn how to read and write. He became famous world, famous with his 96 00:09:52.530 --> 00:10:04.779 literacy project, how to learn to read and write, but he says, as important as that is to read, to interpret the context in order to transform the context. 97 00:10:05.030 --> 00:10:09.350 It's a big task. It's a big task for us that are the 98 00:10:10.020 --> 00:10:15.260 like very small persons in a very big 99 00:10:15.280 --> 00:10:16.649 world. It is 100 00:10:16.870 --> 00:10:24.289 not listening to what people like us, like. Common people say, we want peace. We want this and work. 101 00:10:24.460 --> 00:10:26.420 and so on, and so forth. 102 00:10:27.050 --> 00:10:37.190 The funny thing is that in the agenda we forget that the United Nations was built on 2 feet. 103 00:10:38.460 --> 00:10:42.680 The Insecurity Council, as Avo Morales calls it. 104 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:48.170 in Security Council, because you have the 5 veto powers. 105 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.000 They have the atomic power 106 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:58.869 to decide war and peace. They have done very well. 107 00:11:01.150 --> 00:11:03.969 The fate of the United Nations 108 00:11:03.980 --> 00:11:14.800 is bound to be, in my eyes, like the leak of nations, to vanish, because, if you ask who is Guterres, people say sounds Portuguese 109 00:11:14.950 --> 00:11:18.450 happens to be the Secretary General of the United Nations today 110 00:11:18.930 --> 00:11:24.530 the United Nations has lost visibility, has lost muscle. 111 00:11:24.930 --> 00:11:29.860 And it's the country is producing most weapons. 112 00:11:31.300 --> 00:11:35.830 producing most insecurity that that's supposed to give a security. 113 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.469 So this is the context we're in. 114 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:48.410 And then we need to read beyond language we are living in a time of, or William English language. 115 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.530 which means is a language that deceives. 116 00:11:53.080 --> 00:12:03.810 is used to manipulate, to disinform, not to make people more aware and freer is about consciousness raising. That's what his 117 00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:09.889 approach to transformative research and education. And that's where we come in the picture. 118 00:12:10.880 --> 00:12:13.719 So what is the perspective? 119 00:12:14.260 --> 00:12:18.680 In 2,000 18 120 00:12:20.540 --> 00:12:24.199 I read in the news that Bolsonaro. 121 00:12:24.690 --> 00:12:28.759 this kind of clone from Trump. 122 00:12:29.180 --> 00:12:32.440 whose song is working with Steve Bannon. 123 00:12:32.510 --> 00:13:00.130 and we'll come back to these names, Bolsonaro said. If I am elected I will burn part of Florida's books. Remember, I said this yesterday, when he said this, I thought of the Nazis burning the books of Herman has a of Stephen's right, and people that were suspect of saying what he to her and devils and the Nazis, they want to listen. So my reaction as 124 00:13:00.580 --> 00:13:07.999 an organic intellectual engaged until the very last drop of my blood 125 00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:16.210 because I have 3 children. I have 6 grandchildren, and all the children of the world are our children as well. So 126 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:24.820 I wrote 3 chapters in 3 books. one about active education. There was 127 00:13:25.730 --> 00:13:27.889 edited in Greece. 128 00:13:28.020 --> 00:13:34.360 and I think Christina Maroli is a member of ours. I think, in Athens 129 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:37.380 it was an active education. 130 00:13:37.460 --> 00:13:42.670 So I said, well, everything that this education is active for is not education. 131 00:13:43.060 --> 00:13:55.059 So that was one line, basically looking at neoliberalized education as non-education as instructional, but not about thinking, not about critical thinking. 132 00:13:55.280 --> 00:13:59.750 The second was about participatory action research. Now 133 00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:10.490 you may know about this term weakened in the discussion expand what it meant. 134 00:14:11.060 --> 00:14:15.909 And there are, there are basically 2 approaches. And that's a paper that we wrote with Eric. 135 00:14:16.850 --> 00:14:23.219 The Latin American approach is associated with Paolo-fre and Orlando. False border. 136 00:14:23.800 --> 00:14:25.200 Both 137 00:14:26.170 --> 00:14:30.020 dear friends passed away. 138 00:14:31.350 --> 00:14:44.380 and both of them actually came to Sweden. participate in the research was launched in Obama in the 70 s. In the frame of other development 139 00:14:44.630 --> 00:14:46.050 was an attempt 140 00:14:46.110 --> 00:14:57.619 to look at development from a critical perspective. Third World alternative. Other development still exists, but the punch is gone in my eyes. 141 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:04.299 this Western approach 142 00:15:04.780 --> 00:15:07.930 to participatory action research 143 00:15:08.190 --> 00:15:12.220 basically associated with. 144 00:15:12.520 --> 00:15:18.879 let's say, there was Eric's line more adaptive, more inspired by, do we? 145 00:15:19.290 --> 00:15:26.720 And it was about adaptive education. We make changes like the what is 146 00:15:26.770 --> 00:15:39.000 to change things, that everything remains the same. It's cosmetic change. Flavor was about transforming radically structures. Because in, for example. 147 00:15:39.050 --> 00:15:44.610 what Gandhi called the structural violent situations, you need to change the structure of violence. 148 00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:48.559 I think there was one of your lines yesterday 149 00:15:49.970 --> 00:15:53.559 and the third had to do. 150 00:15:53.660 --> 00:15:58.449 and the participation research was published 151 00:15:59.650 --> 00:16:00.760 in 152 00:16:00.970 --> 00:16:01.920 Denmark. 153 00:16:02.140 --> 00:16:03.590 in Copenhagen. 154 00:16:03.730 --> 00:16:07.740 and the last one has to do with intercultural 155 00:16:07.940 --> 00:16:09.480 and dialogue. 156 00:16:10.610 --> 00:16:18.430 and as a as as a as a vision. not as an ongoing process. 157 00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:30.069 We would like to bring in the debate the possibility, the promise of intercultural dialogue is by all of this by frail. 158 00:16:30.270 --> 00:16:30.940 So 159 00:16:32.230 --> 00:16:36.819 that's maybe enough. This book I will recommend for you to 160 00:16:37.380 --> 00:16:42.049 take a picture and take it to your universities is doing quite well. 161 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:50.570 It's very expensive. I have nothing to do with it. I'm asking them to make a paper book so it could be accessible. They might listen a lot 162 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.959 something else about the book 163 00:16:53.750 --> 00:17:02.189 or about the vision, the perspective. So let me say something about perspective. 164 00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:03.850 All of us 165 00:17:03.859 --> 00:17:08.029 here and in the digital world with us 166 00:17:08.590 --> 00:17:10.259 we have perspectives. 167 00:17:10.529 --> 00:17:13.310 with your values, we have 168 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.890 theoretical windows. If you want to be more academic. 169 00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:19.350 what does it mean? 170 00:17:20.010 --> 00:17:30.670 One that we'll learn who got the Nobel Prize in Economics late from the Stockholm School of Economics. People don't know much about it. They know about 171 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:36.830 Cambridge School of Economics. Well, at the time we had the Stockholm School of Economics. 172 00:17:37.350 --> 00:17:46.530 his wife Alva, near the in the 80 s. With the Mexican ambassador, the world price in peace 173 00:17:46.590 --> 00:17:48.630 for disarmament. 174 00:17:49.010 --> 00:17:52.490 and we can go back to that in the discussion. 175 00:17:52.649 --> 00:17:53.410 No. 176 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:59.960 when we discussed perspective, listen carefully, becomes very simple. 177 00:18:00.020 --> 00:18:02.969 but it has a lot in it. Okay. 178 00:18:03.330 --> 00:18:07.060 Goner. And there were about a thousand people listening to him. 179 00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:18.140 They are the reason that I find myself today in Sweden this architects of the Swedish popular welfare model, not the Swedish modern. 180 00:18:18.540 --> 00:18:23.830 It's the Swedish popular model. I'll make a difference. And we discussed later on. 181 00:18:24.910 --> 00:18:26.979 How much time do I have, Oliver? 182 00:18:28.850 --> 00:18:36.030 What I don't say now. We will try to do it. In the dialogue. I would stick to the 20 min. 183 00:18:36.399 --> 00:18:47.019 he said. You have no answers except from questions. Has it reason? I would have an answer if you have no questions. 184 00:18:47.050 --> 00:18:51.420 but questions don't drop out of heaven. 185 00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:56.270 Questions come out of perspectives. So 186 00:18:56.510 --> 00:19:09.779 if my perspective is functional, my question would be, What is functional, let's say with alcohol, and then you will say, well, it helps you to socialize, to have fun parties. 187 00:19:09.780 --> 00:19:29.410 You can repress your sensor, and then you can cry. If you are a man, you know you can stop your enemy, you know, and then you can say, Well, I was wrong. So I'm not guilty. But if you have a critical perspective. A political economy, you will say. 188 00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:53.950 who wins and who loses with the use of alcohol, and you will see that in crisis situations more people confuse more alcohol. We want to forget that you are in a crisis situation. We tend to be like an ostrich. Instead of thinking and addressing the issues and scrolling the eye. We do it like the ostrich, we go into denial. Okay. 189 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:59.239 so so much about this. So when you look at the text. 190 00:19:59.270 --> 00:20:23.920 you approach your research anything you say, what is the perspective of the author? And there is a school in sociology at the one time had the chairs of the Presidency in Isa. Some of them like I can give names. I am old enough to say the truth, like Martinelli, and people like him, even like Kyoto someday, and so on. 191 00:20:24.030 --> 00:20:27.180 They will say, we need to be value neutral. 192 00:20:27.250 --> 00:20:45.279 you know. Don't let your values interfere with your diagnosis, with your studies, with your data, and so on. So I will say today, bullshit. So we have perspectives. We need to acknowledge the perspective of the other and our perspectives. So this is crucial. 193 00:20:45.530 --> 00:20:47.500 for what then? We want them to do 194 00:20:47.950 --> 00:20:58.459 so can you move? And then I will just use the first page. Eric isn't here to to present his part of the game. So there! 195 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:02.580 So yes, I'm a Southerner. I'm from Peru. 196 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:11.039 I was in March, Emperor at my Alma Mater, the National Agricultural University. 197 00:21:11.380 --> 00:21:13.720 I was invited to 198 00:21:13.780 --> 00:21:26.249 Assembly of the Teachers Association. I'm still a member. To my surprise I found a very influential group representing Fujimori 199 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.629 fascism, corrupt narco traffic. 200 00:21:30.110 --> 00:21:34.809 His daughter might be elected in the next elections they are controlling 201 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:47.510 today the civic military dictatorship that is running the show, trying to get rid of the final residue one of the 2 final residues of democracy. 202 00:21:47.570 --> 00:21:48.900 They 203 00:21:48.930 --> 00:21:55.979 murdered 60 people, protesting peacefully in the south of Peru, indigenous Peru. 204 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:04.029 In the last days I found that Ogo Blanco, a legendary peasant leader, died 205 00:22:04.060 --> 00:22:06.000 with him, dies 206 00:22:06.370 --> 00:22:18.040 most of Peruvian political decency in the last is the only country in the world with a record of 6 presidents in jail, or incriminated for corruption. 207 00:22:18.550 --> 00:22:21.039 and one in power 208 00:22:21.080 --> 00:22:25.889 should be, and hopefully will be, judge accordingly. 209 00:22:27.650 --> 00:22:32.550 So this is my vision my indignation. 210 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:38.170 you know people say that Gandhi was a nice pacifist. He wasn't 211 00:22:38.490 --> 00:22:43.490 for him. Indignation was very important. part of his approach to 212 00:22:44.040 --> 00:22:50.610 challenge social violence. Indignation is what makes you react against injustice. 213 00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:55.599 So you understand my indignation now, Eric 214 00:22:55.770 --> 00:22:57.509 Northern, I from Sweden. 215 00:22:58.530 --> 00:23:05.619 as I said, surviving, struggling for life, and I told him. Eric, fight it, fight! We want you. 216 00:23:05.650 --> 00:23:08.740 and she said, I fight as much as I can. 217 00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:11.119 so I hope he can do it. 218 00:23:11.380 --> 00:23:20.700 So we are both taking a point of departure in dialogue perspectives, his perspective more Swedish, more consensus, more conflict. Avoid them. 219 00:23:20.840 --> 00:23:22.189 What nice 220 00:23:22.220 --> 00:23:29.709 in dialogue as values, ideas, practices and methodology for participatory action. Research. 221 00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:33.050 you 222 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.630 so for him. 223 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:48.820 And he did apply this view of dialogue of democratic dialogue in his doctor's work. It's a masterpiece 224 00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:50.360 to show. 225 00:23:51.550 --> 00:23:54.530 Theoretically, he goes back to Aristotle's 226 00:23:55.530 --> 00:23:59.190 and comes to a recent time. He 227 00:23:59.530 --> 00:24:07.920 led the most advanced project, using dialogue as the basis of research called Long 228 00:24:08.100 --> 00:24:15.920 was a dialogue oriented, theoretically, methodologically approach to research. 229 00:24:16.280 --> 00:24:22.230 I will say that today. like they will be 230 00:24:23.070 --> 00:24:26.470 criticized out of the debate for being 231 00:24:26.710 --> 00:24:33.260 to Radical to Leftist. even though he would dispute what I am saying. 232 00:24:34.790 --> 00:24:41.630 Dialogue goes back to Socrates, to the majestic method. 233 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.910 to the men on where 234 00:24:44.970 --> 00:24:48.050 the only of the slave as the slave 235 00:24:48.340 --> 00:24:49.320 mainland. 236 00:24:50.650 --> 00:24:54.810 and through questions awakens the knowledge that is in there. 237 00:24:55.830 --> 00:24:59.640 Fred. It took this Socratic Mexic approach. 238 00:24:59.780 --> 00:25:10.440 but differently. He was influenced from the left Catholic, thinking from Munier, from Martin Bauer, from the critical 239 00:25:11.340 --> 00:25:18.369 neo-marxist, Pozonian, Pronian, more libertarian because poison was 240 00:25:19.330 --> 00:25:26.220 you know, in debate with Marx about the need for State authority. 241 00:25:27.050 --> 00:25:32.299 so there are different ways to look at dialogue. 242 00:25:32.950 --> 00:25:35.010 and I will go on 243 00:25:35.020 --> 00:25:36.920 discuss it. Different 244 00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:52.589 approaches when we discuss the issue. We've been engaging dialogue and dialogue and friendly calls since night, and he says 81, I say 82, both running from each other, and recognizing fruitful differences to emulate. 245 00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:53.810 So 246 00:25:55.250 --> 00:26:01.540 when you engage in dialogue, Martin Bauer says something new happens. 247 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:05.240 and Bauer and Freddy took from over 248 00:26:05.300 --> 00:26:10.840 he, this is important. the rest of the discussion both it 249 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:16.460 differentiated. I eat from I down. 250 00:26:16.520 --> 00:26:19.160 So one of his famous book is Idaho. 251 00:26:19.410 --> 00:26:24.269 I eat is what Frederick called classification of the other. 252 00:26:25.840 --> 00:26:33.570 refine the other, constructing and inventing another. That is not like me. 253 00:26:34.130 --> 00:26:46.140 We are different, therefore he or she is less than I am I? It is instrumentalizing view of the other. You are there to please me. 254 00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:51.739 Okay, let's go to bed tomorrow. We get married. Okay? Say, everything 255 00:26:51.880 --> 00:27:01.600 is for the glory of what I gain. I thou is a view of the other as myself. 256 00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:07.770 Like. So Commandante Marco says I'm you, you're me. 257 00:27:08.110 --> 00:27:11.339 I' to bring your voice to the 4. 258 00:27:12.590 --> 00:27:13.900 So 259 00:27:15.540 --> 00:27:22.020 this view of dialogue is transformative because the neoliberal. 260 00:27:22.490 --> 00:27:32.569 the market fundamentalist view of the world. makes the other a commodity. What do you do with commodities? You meaning my cost 261 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:36.439 to maximize, profit, pleasure. 262 00:27:36.620 --> 00:27:46.289 a dispense of the other. So it's exploited. It's oppressive. The aim here is capturing the sense of commonality. 263 00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:50.189 It's our human commonality. 264 00:27:50.220 --> 00:28:04.530 our human ground. We have the same range of emotions. You may our cultures express it differently. We have all the incredible capacity to think and abstract. 265 00:28:04.780 --> 00:28:13.289 And Freder said, This is our great asset. To fight the enemy. Our imagination. Creativity is infinite. 266 00:28:14.380 --> 00:28:19.960 Even in the concentration camp. we can defy the enemy and resist 267 00:28:22.360 --> 00:28:23.540 so 268 00:28:24.230 --> 00:28:27.429 sense of commonality, the human, the common grant. 269 00:28:28.270 --> 00:28:30.050 the Francis. Yes. 270 00:28:30.170 --> 00:28:40.270 you know Homo sapiens was part of other species living with us near dental, you know, in Asia, in Africa. 271 00:28:40.370 --> 00:28:41.950 and so on, and so forth. 272 00:28:42.840 --> 00:28:46.880 So he privatization of this like over time. 273 00:28:47.620 --> 00:28:52.679 the dialogue between universality and particularity and diversity. 274 00:28:52.840 --> 00:29:07.380 So not yet integrating in a shirt model. Is it possible? Is it preferable? This is our bet? As we approach this issue. Let's see if we can. You show the next, and then 275 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.170 then we can leave it for the discussion. 276 00:29:11.290 --> 00:29:16.920 because I think it's very important that we actually have a chance to listen to each other. 277 00:29:17.370 --> 00:29:18.190 Oh. 278 00:29:18.990 --> 00:29:21.599 let me go first. 279 00:29:22.230 --> 00:29:23.050 No 280 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:30.219 cantile of being used as a research methodology. Yes, I will give examples. 281 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:38.790 and so it's occasion I'll give examples. So I mentioned Paulo Friday before Orlando as Border 282 00:29:39.270 --> 00:29:44.410 was a. She died in 75, 283 00:29:44.570 --> 00:29:49.549 but if you cross your eyes. You will be here with us because I'm the only living disciple. 284 00:29:49.840 --> 00:29:58.900 and I give you an example of a teacher student relationship. When she was in her die in bed in 75. 285 00:29:58.940 --> 00:30:11.200 She asked her sister Zoe, the older, was 90 years old, to let me know that she was dying because we had planned to meet. When the teacher in her dying bedroom 286 00:30:11.830 --> 00:30:19.259 sends your message, it tells you how important you have become, and this is about the therapeutic heroes. 287 00:30:19.490 --> 00:30:23.019 So Dorothy is alive through men. 288 00:30:23.130 --> 00:30:28.950 through her daughter in Boston, through her granddaughter in Yale. So 289 00:30:29.080 --> 00:30:40.929 look at Dorothily because she's not. She was a friend of Margaret Meat and Rose Benedict. You know the great anthropologist at the time, but she's not known in the West as much. 290 00:30:43.320 --> 00:30:46.590 not about dialogue and dialectics 291 00:30:46.800 --> 00:30:53.359 very fast now we expand later. I mentioned this yesterday, but it was not much appreciated. 292 00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:56.250 so dialogue is about empathy. 293 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:04.020 Dialogue is about placing myself in your shoes. so you can look at the world through my eyes, and vice versa. 294 00:31:04.290 --> 00:31:07.820 easily said and done. But this is what empathy is about. 295 00:31:08.470 --> 00:31:17.790 and say, well, how could you be dialogue with dialogue, and and and and and dialectic? Well, you can. 296 00:31:17.970 --> 00:31:18.810 because 297 00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:29.180 one to one dialogue will be the approach. Dialectics is a way to look at society and society has contradictions. Society has conflict. 298 00:31:29.540 --> 00:31:30.550 So 299 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:36.229 we need to read the context to transform, if you use Gandhi from 300 00:31:36.570 --> 00:31:38.240 structural violence 301 00:31:38.360 --> 00:31:44.940 to a structure of justice and peace and democracy and love and solidarity. 302 00:31:45.100 --> 00:31:47.389 So short. Note on that 303 00:31:47.750 --> 00:31:51.170 as value. Okay. yes. 304 00:31:51.250 --> 00:31:58.560 it is a value because it implies respect. equal value of all human beings. It's a bet. 305 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:09.979 you know. I heard a very interesting reflection of a Nazi intellectual after he had been in jail or from jail. He said. 306 00:32:10.010 --> 00:32:19.120 yeah, the problem was that we believed in inequality, in racial inequality. 307 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:20.939 And of course, we 308 00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:31.240 white areas were on top and everyone else was below and below, below. You will have the cash people in India, the Jews, the gypsies, and some. 309 00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:42.359 So it's very important. When you look at the world through. We're equal or we are unequal. And today what is seen is 310 00:32:42.700 --> 00:32:46.240 predominant is the view of inequality. 311 00:32:46.250 --> 00:33:04.730 And now, liberal woman. He speaks about globalism. I like last time. Globalism is a critical look of neoliberal globalization is not the only one globalism rhymes with colonialism and near colonialism. And that's what we are leaving today. 312 00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:06.160 and 313 00:33:07.030 --> 00:33:13.420 Should I leave the rest for the discussion? And then, or should I go through with it? You'd let me know. 314 00:33:16.030 --> 00:33:16.850 Yes. 315 00:33:17.450 --> 00:33:25.829 yes, good. So I shut my mouth. Thank you for being with me, and then we invite Alberta, you with us. 316 00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:29.439 Alberta and his group in Bernos Aires. 317 00:33:30.100 --> 00:33:33.119 Hello, no. Then we got Vera. 318 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:41.029 Now Vera is going to look, and what we had to do, because we had 319 00:33:41.050 --> 00:33:48.950 to many papers for another session we have on Saturday. I think it's a 30 on Saturday. 320 00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:50.990 Who? 321 00:33:51.580 --> 00:33:52.900 Yes. 322 00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:00.950 Joshua, man. 323 00:34:01.990 --> 00:34:03.120 Hello! 324 00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:22.050 Great great Alberto is not with you. 325 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:31.659 Jose Manuel Grima: No, I I speak Spanish. Only 326 00:34:31.780 --> 00:34:36.929 right? So we will need instantaneous interpreting. Do we have it or not? 327 00:35:12.170 --> 00:35:24.940 Well, it we we have Kathya from Chile that just came from heaven to help us with unprepared, instantaneous interpretation. So Manal 328 00:35:25.250 --> 00:35:29.799 and the lento lento quantity and ponies it us 329 00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:57.739 10 min, 10 min, and then meetings. Yes, it. I I want you to introduce your who you are, and about your team in Bernos Aires, because some of us know. But other people don't. And let me say something before you start by the here I'll go. 330 00:35:57.850 --> 00:36:03.119 Alberto Bielikovsky, in Bonos Aires. The University of Pennsylvania 331 00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:09.130 for many years has been doing this kind of 332 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:14.979 the logic participatory, actually, research. So he's a pioneer, and 333 00:36:15.060 --> 00:36:18.670 he was a member of what we had 334 00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:31.880 in Research Committee 10. We had a very rich, productive Iber-american Subcommittee. We had it, and then it was dropped. 335 00:36:32.170 --> 00:36:34.559 It was an arbitrary 336 00:36:34.660 --> 00:36:45.420 decision from people with power in the Research Committee, because research committees and Isa are also structures of violence, even if we don't like it. 337 00:36:45.430 --> 00:36:49.069 Okay? So this being said, I will. 338 00:37:13.930 --> 00:37:17.990 Jose Manuel Grima: No, no. 339 00:37:39.560 --> 00:37:51.130 Jose Manuel Grima: we are doing like for the people who just came. We are doing like a very improvised translation. So, Ok, good. 340 00:38:08.810 --> 00:38:23.600 Jose Manuel Grima: yeah. So now they are presenting, well, they're coming from Argentina, and they are presenting about a collaborative research, a a dialogue, a ideological methodology. I think it's. 341 00:38:23.610 --> 00:38:24.640 Jose Manuel Grima: And 342 00:38:36.410 --> 00:38:52.129 Jose Manuel Grima: this is a collective writing with a collective paper of this presentation. It's been written by well, I think 4 or 5 people. I don't remember the names now, but the Alberta mentioned just that now. 343 00:38:52.570 --> 00:38:58.750 Jose Manuel Grima: And, Jose, your name is Jose right? 344 00:38:58.850 --> 00:39:23.550 Jose Manuel Grima: so the purpose of the purpose of this of this presentation is to present the methods and the the various techniques of a collaborative research that they have been conducting 345 00:39:46.730 --> 00:40:04.270 Jose Manuel Grima: erez agmoni. So there are many, many trends within it, such as a militant social praxis, participatory action, research and collective knowledge, production. 346 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.030 and horizontal knowledge, production. 347 00:40:24.130 --> 00:40:36.340 So and in general terms, this, this approach to to methods and encompasses, like the co-creation of knowledge for a social transformation 348 00:40:40.290 --> 00:40:44.749 and to question social intellect. That will be. 349 00:40:53.140 --> 00:41:17.110 Jose Manuel Grima: okay. 350 00:41:17.340 --> 00:41:27.390 So at the same time that we are producing these dialogic methodologies, we are producing and co-creating their own collective of people who are creating this knowledge. 351 00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:38.270 So the aim of this is to create a third knowledge. 352 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:52.120 So with the purpose of creating this relationship of reciprocity with the other 353 00:41:52.810 --> 00:41:54.160 Jose Manuel Grima: done 354 00:41:54.200 --> 00:42:09.340 Jose Manuel Grima: in the process of production, knowledge as and in the process of a production knowledge as and in the process of transference of that knowledge, dissemination of that knowledge. 355 00:42:19.990 --> 00:42:24.969 I. We will present 4 main topics in this presentation. 356 00:42:31.230 --> 00:42:50.410 First of all, the background of this type of research, collaborative research. A, 357 00:42:59.860 --> 00:43:14.310 certainly the creation of devices. artifacts. Yeah. So are the facts for the process. Yeah, or research techniques for the process of of not collective knowledge. 358 00:43:14.580 --> 00:43:16.710 Jose Manuel Grima: Yes, a quarter 359 00:43:27.220 --> 00:43:28.870 Jose Manuel Grima: is the way. 360 00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:33.270 yeah. 361 00:44:00.130 --> 00:44:04.640 and the 362 00:44:04.890 --> 00:44:08.949 but we can get it from the discussion. So we put it in the agenda. 363 00:45:02.950 --> 00:45:05.240 Jose Manuel Grima: a. 364 00:45:43.830 --> 00:45:53.490 So to approach the story of this neighborhood, he works with the life, life life stories. 365 00:46:40.970 --> 00:46:59.959 Okay, this. So this this twist, unlike, like maybe traditional research involved and establishing that relationship with the with the vision of the people themselves from the communities. And so on. Today to become part of this process of knowledge production incorporating their views into the research themselves itself. 366 00:47:07.930 --> 00:47:17.480 Jose Manuel Grima: So interaction. It's a key feature of this approach to research. 367 00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:21.629 as the interview is not controlled by the researcher. 368 00:47:27.690 --> 00:47:32.010 but the interviewee will also lead the interview process 369 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:42.089 towards the the issues that they are important for them, for the interview is 370 00:47:49.220 --> 00:47:56.740 and the the outcome of of the process will be the the exchange, the the the exchange during the interview process. 371 00:47:57.710 --> 00:47:59.840 Jose Manuel Grima: and consequently to 372 00:48:05.870 --> 00:48:14.650 so with the with his team, they, as a consequence, they, they. They conducted multiple research projects with this methodology. 373 00:48:19.770 --> 00:48:34.049 Jose Manuel Grima: and then then they developed this concept of copper like copper doctors, co-producers 374 00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:35.880 we come to 375 00:48:51.210 --> 00:48:52.680 Jose Manuel Grima: perfect. Though 376 00:49:01.660 --> 00:49:08.050 the challenge for this process of co-production of knowledge 377 00:49:29.240 --> 00:49:37.629 is to make visible there some structures from which so this is the 378 00:49:38.990 --> 00:49:42.269 structure of this diversity of. 379 00:49:42.460 --> 00:49:44.739 So this is knowledge. 380 00:49:48.190 --> 00:49:49.790 Jose Manuel Grima: bad fact. 381 00:49:51.010 --> 00:49:53.650 Jose Manuel Grima: and via Boyle. 382 00:50:01.540 --> 00:50:09.790 this this dimension, which is a complex dimension, which is a subjective and of objective at the same time. 383 00:50:13.640 --> 00:50:18.120 Jose Manuel Grima: and this is a a limited to practice intellectual. 384 00:50:50.350 --> 00:51:00.269 So the the key aspect of our methodology is the collective knowledge. Production 385 00:51:01.090 --> 00:51:02.709 Jose Manuel Grima: is la. 386 00:51:08.610 --> 00:51:12.780 so that dialogue co-production. So the production with the others. 387 00:51:13.950 --> 00:51:15.949 Jose Manuel Grima: A, I mean more DM phone. 388 00:51:16.550 --> 00:51:18.270 and at the same time 389 00:51:21.630 --> 00:51:25.749 that the collective, so to to his El group of the he and the Certo 390 00:51:25.860 --> 00:51:36.809 Jose Manuel Grima: people are. They are producing themselves. 391 00:51:41.490 --> 00:51:58.779 And and and this transform of kind of makes all of the the participants of this collective of in collective producers. So they are all becoming collective producers and collective knowledge producers. 392 00:52:30.670 --> 00:52:45.709 Jose Manuel Grima: So in kind of in practical terms, just to to show you a little bit of how it is an acting practice. So they kind of create these very situated methods in the 393 00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:51.420 and territories or places where everyday life is happening. 394 00:53:11.720 --> 00:53:23.770 and in that kind of experiment of copper acknowledged production who participate. On the one hand, the people from the neighborhood, the communities. 395 00:53:53.500 --> 00:53:56.250 lecturers from the university. 396 00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:21.709 and also a participants from some certain organizations, institutions who have involvement in the neighborhoods where they are working. 397 00:54:43.130 --> 00:55:10.989 So, for example, one it it. This positiva will be like artifact, like social artifact, that that that's what the word hosm is using will be integrated by it's integrated by the inhabitants of the neighborhood. They are working with 398 00:55:18.090 --> 00:55:21.589 people kind of representative of the schools, local schools. 399 00:55:32.570 --> 00:55:34.380 and plus the researchers 400 00:55:40.300 --> 00:55:45.690 Jose Manuel Grima: and teachers as a lectures as well. 401 00:55:55.060 --> 00:56:03.049 So it's a biological strategy. So basically, they work on the issues that concern the community in the neighborhood. 402 00:56:05.550 --> 00:56:06.960 Jose Manuel Grima: a port 403 00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:21.200 and every copied co-producer kind of contributes with their knowledge, wisdom about the issue at the stake. 404 00:56:47.470 --> 00:56:48.850 Good. 405 00:57:16.990 --> 00:57:27.680 I will bring the topic, and you can come, maybe, later on. So we have time to address these issues. These 2 papers, these 2 presentations 406 00:57:27.740 --> 00:57:44.009 from the group in Buenos Aires, former members of Research Committee, and of the either American Subcommittee 10, and the presentation that Eric and myself have prepared. 407 00:57:44.660 --> 00:57:49.680 so should we then proceed, and, Oliver just help us. 408 00:57:49.730 --> 00:58:03.699 You have. So we begin now with the questions and and reflections and commentaries. So the floors open and Kathy will start. So if you want to come 409 00:58:03.720 --> 00:58:05.490 to the podium 410 00:58:05.590 --> 00:58:19.209 this book can circulate, you can make copies of the pictures of the book and then give it back. It's the only copy I have. I don't think it. Well, yeah. So for me. 411 00:58:19.470 --> 00:58:30.429 it's so. It's not shocking. But it's so interesting how a panel like this one. 412 00:58:30.620 --> 00:58:41.789 I think it's only interesting interesting for people from the global South. If you look at who we are here, most of us, we are rationalized 413 00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:42.960 people 414 00:58:43.270 --> 00:58:52.570 and not many. I was attending yesterday this panel about global transitions, and it's a very mild. 415 00:58:52.660 --> 00:59:13.570 an institutional approach to climate change full because it's also very difficult to come in terms of money to Australia, people from the global South. And for me this is like a very, very interesting and very 416 00:59:13.870 --> 00:59:17.800 all the same time, when you were saying about this kind of 417 00:59:18.570 --> 00:59:44.490 political, politically engaged research comes also from indignation. I think there is a lot of indignation for me right now about looking at, and kind of Congress which is so, which started with this talk about the acknowledgment of aboriginal people and taking their respects to aboriginal people. And in the and in reality what's going 418 00:59:44.490 --> 01:00:10.419 going on here is that the kind of all the methodologies, the colonial technologies and methodologies coming from the global South are not really acknowledged. So we are still at the margins, and the people who are here who are interested here. I think it's like and that's like for me. It's again like a a lift of energy. For say, Okay, we are at the margins. But let's continue being at the Martins. 419 01:00:11.030 --> 01:00:22.430 all over, as representative from the organization. Take, please. This observation, this critical reservation. 420 01:00:22.590 --> 01:00:30.090 Yes, thank you, Kathya, because I was so much concerned with this that yes, it is evident 421 01:00:30.160 --> 01:00:45.629 they speak about. We are not up to the discourse, and that's clear. Thank you so much, Kathy, for a very, very important comment that I hope it reaches to the ears and the hearts and minds of the organizers. 422 01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:49.020 So 423 01:00:49.250 --> 01:00:52.210 More questions. comments. 424 01:00:52.520 --> 01:01:03.550 If not, I could complete my part of the presentation very rapidly, but we try to get with the question. Please go ahead. 425 01:01:04.440 --> 01:01:06.259 but you need to come. Yes. 426 01:01:06.670 --> 01:01:10.809 I will need your help to put my 427 01:01:10.850 --> 01:01:13.260 the Powerpoint 428 01:01:14.730 --> 01:01:22.779 introduce. Yes, introduce, oh, good! Introduce yourself. That's fine. 429 01:01:23.120 --> 01:01:29.120 thank you very much. Chair. My name is Samuel. 430 01:01:29.180 --> 01:01:30.720 Really. 431 01:01:31.010 --> 01:01:36.609 my name is Samuel L. Pele. I am from South Africa. 432 01:01:37.060 --> 01:01:43.059 from the University of Zurich that is, in Gazuru, Natal province. 433 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:47.519 Yes, indeed, you are from the global South. 434 01:01:47.790 --> 01:01:53.440 and thank you very much for what you have just expressed. 435 01:01:53.530 --> 01:01:58.450 This is a very interesting presentation that we've just heard. 436 01:01:58.650 --> 01:02:05.260 and apologies for coming in late. But, I managed to grasp quite a lot. 437 01:02:05.500 --> 01:02:07.020 and 438 01:02:09.210 --> 01:02:25.860 what I want to ask the presenter, is he? He? He says, as researchers. they. they, they, they, they, they, they, they. They looked into the co-production of knowledge. 439 01:02:26.420 --> 01:02:31.839 and which I think they've termed knowledge democracy. 440 01:02:32.370 --> 01:02:34.330 And also 441 01:02:34.640 --> 01:02:40.340 I want. And and they they they they focus on the voices of the people. 442 01:02:40.830 --> 01:02:46.780 the daily life stories of the people. But I want to know. 443 01:02:46.900 --> 01:02:55.019 Since there is so many, there's so much that comes out of the community. There's a lot that comes out. 444 01:02:55.060 --> 01:02:58.149 You know I I relate 445 01:02:58.230 --> 01:03:10.139 to what you are doing from my own community. There is so much, but I want to know how, how, how, how you have managed to deal with so much. 446 01:03:10.230 --> 01:03:32.709 you know. And This umbrella of community engagement! This is engaged. Scholarship, that is, is, is coming out of here, so out of so many, so much that is there that is embedded in our communities in your communities. How did you manage in this process. Yes, thank you. 447 01:03:33.820 --> 01:03:36.219 Thank you for a great question. 448 01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:39.780 And then my humble 449 01:03:40.040 --> 01:03:41.450 attempt to answer 450 01:03:41.760 --> 01:04:14.119 Katya Tovata, Rosievla, prevent a to his press step, or you wait in time to be in the. 451 01:04:14.220 --> 01:04:29.189 So we we are going to, though Katya will help us to get a question to Josie Manuel. But I will do a humble, fast attempt. We have some time, luckily about 40 min. So, my my 452 01:04:29.200 --> 01:04:31.849 oh, reflection, answer. 453 01:04:32.160 --> 01:04:34.830 It's massive data. 454 01:04:35.120 --> 01:04:49.989 So if you use statistical quantitative procedures. You do factor analysis because of path analysis. Then you are done. But here is basically qualitative methodology. And 455 01:04:50.580 --> 01:04:58.340 they called artifacts is really social research techniques, methods. So life stories. 456 01:04:59.060 --> 01:05:00.530 narratives. 457 01:05:01.710 --> 01:05:02.740 So 458 01:05:03.130 --> 01:05:08.409 since you have so many core researchers, then you can digest 459 01:05:08.540 --> 01:05:11.229 the data and systematize. 460 01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:24.620 And it is a deliberative process with all the voices included. You break through the elotism of conventional research between researchers and research. 461 01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:27.479 Everyone is a co- researcher. 462 01:05:27.560 --> 01:05:32.979 Ok? So that would be my attempt to answer 463 01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:52.560 you. You help me right now I'm Ok. But it was very good. You did very well. 464 01:05:52.580 --> 01:05:53.630 And 465 01:05:53.670 --> 01:05:55.030 so Joshua, and all 466 01:05:55.370 --> 01:06:02.059 the and and for the 467 01:06:02.530 --> 01:06:05.779 while I launch the data. 468 01:06:15.630 --> 01:06:17.830 But I, 469 01:06:37.780 --> 01:06:41.400 Lucy City, I was speaking 470 01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:48.860 Jose Manuel Grima: CC, perfect, though. 471 01:06:49.130 --> 01:06:52.539 But if you. 472 01:06:52.720 --> 01:06:54.490 it's a great 473 01:07:08.520 --> 01:07:10.369 Jose Manuel Grima: okay. 474 01:07:10.500 --> 01:07:18.890 to begin with. So this methodological approach is based on dialogue, but also on listening 475 01:07:24.040 --> 01:07:25.170 Jose Manuel Grima: Dante. 476 01:07:35.230 --> 01:07:46.950 So we start from from the questions and even the theoretical approaches that we have from from from the university of those who are working, and in Academia 477 01:07:47.750 --> 01:07:50.779 Jose Manuel Grima: Komo, they 478 01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:20.219 but that comes along with the interest and the topics that wants to be addressed by the members of the community and by the professionals of like a public servants of people, from the institutions that are involved and deeply involved in the communities they are working with. 479 01:08:26.400 --> 01:08:40.839 Jose Manuel Grima: Do the logical attitude towards research what what it makes possible is to put at the same discursive level, all of the voices. They are all at the same level 480 01:08:41.860 --> 01:08:47.529 Jose Manuel Grima: he had processed for the production on the and to soon continue. No, I 481 01:08:47.650 --> 01:08:51.620 Jose Manuel Grima: Not in terrible, not knowing if they 482 01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:48.710 research, it's a continuous process. So at the same time that they are producing research, they are creating reports that are useful for the communities and for the work they are doing, so that that is happening at the same time 483 01:09:49.710 --> 01:09:51.510 Jose Manuel Grima: for him below. 484 01:10:09.090 --> 01:10:29.949 Okay, for example, in the neighborhoods, they in the neighborhood they are working. They were interested in working in this neighborhood who who is being subjected to a process of 485 01:10:29.990 --> 01:10:36.469 imagination. It's, you know, ghettos, like, when people were ghettos. Yeah, yeah. 486 01:10:39.870 --> 01:10:45.090 Jose Manuel Grima: exactly. 487 01:11:00.060 --> 01:11:03.289 And segregated pretty much. Yeah. 488 01:11:23.310 --> 01:11:30.489 But you, you get the point. Get to a station. Okay? Great. 489 01:12:25.490 --> 01:12:35.680 It is combined with the interest of the community to improve their own strategies of resistance from this process that they are, they are experiencing 490 01:12:56.170 --> 01:13:13.259 so at the same time that they are producing this knowledge, which is kind of answering the the questions of of the researchers, it it's producing knowledge that it's being used by the communities themselves in their quest for kind of solving their own problems 491 01:13:14.810 --> 01:13:15.840 same time 492 01:13:16.200 --> 01:13:17.560 to see. 493 01:13:26.690 --> 01:13:33.179 look away. There's been a gentrification is much more 494 01:13:34.680 --> 01:13:45.829 seriously and severely, so that just get toization. it is redistricting. And, for example, in the United States 495 01:13:45.970 --> 01:13:49.150 one strategy to get 496 01:13:49.990 --> 01:13:59.060 so, though, like an apartheid to the segregation of the vote is to have a concentration of 497 01:13:59.250 --> 01:14:02.529 quite dominant voting districts 498 01:14:02.600 --> 01:14:05.829 where the vote of the 499 01:14:06.400 --> 01:14:17.200 I was going to use something. He criticized me, not quite the use of the indigenous or which term will be colored. 500 01:14:18.660 --> 01:14:19.800 Okay, black people. 501 01:14:19.870 --> 01:14:31.620 So every the ones that I know how they will be black people. So it's a very effective, dangerous, authoritarian, democratic way 502 01:14:31.810 --> 01:14:39.450 to do this kind of redistricting or demographers play a role. 503 01:14:39.540 --> 01:15:00.140 And then there are demographies that work in census data at the State level at the Federal level. So this is a very manipulative way. So in the case of the States, Leo Strada, that I understand. He died recently. 504 01:15:00.170 --> 01:15:03.909 He was a Chicano demographer, working with the American census. 505 01:15:05.020 --> 01:15:06.659 and he just 506 01:15:06.710 --> 01:15:13.299 one of the approaches that I developed to bring the self 507 01:15:13.360 --> 01:15:16.310 definition of ethnic identity. 508 01:15:16.430 --> 01:15:23.330 For example, in in Peru, Lima only 1% of Afro descendants say, I'm black. 509 01:15:23.480 --> 01:15:28.189 So it is much. 30, maybe 40% are 510 01:15:28.300 --> 01:15:32.599 indigenous and African descendants. 511 01:15:32.610 --> 01:15:55.459 So it's ghettoization on one way, but more dangerously redistric for manipulative, anti-democratic processes. So today in the United States, you have red districts and blue districts, and this is an ongoing fight for the numbers and for the name. 512 01:15:56.050 --> 01:15:59.670 This is the way Leo Strada used to refer to it. 513 01:15:59.930 --> 01:16:04.979 So so it's more complicated. But it, of course, is ghettoization as well. 514 01:16:05.210 --> 01:16:07.340 Thank you. 515 01:16:07.530 --> 01:16:10.949 So questions 516 01:16:59.180 --> 01:17:16.199 And then I would like to finish the presentation, which is very short. Yes, no, no, please, Jose Manuel, thank you for that presentation. But there is just one thing that I forgot to ask 517 01:17:16.280 --> 01:17:19.280 that is, you also mentioned that 518 01:17:20.200 --> 01:17:27.370 there is reciprocity in terms of the interviews. and 519 01:17:27.840 --> 01:17:46.690 you interview, and even the interview with they interview you. I want to understand. What is it that they? Yeah, can you just unpack that? And I need to understand more in terms of what is it that they ask you? You know, as because am I correct? That's what. Yeah. Okay, thanks. 520 01:17:47.740 --> 01:18:13.649 I can. Great great questions. And the answer will be on Saturday. If you want to get up at it 30 in the morning. I'm going to address specifically decision on Saturday, A. 30. I don't know if it's in this room or not. We can look, but it's a no, you know, Katha, you made me think in our research Committee 10, we have people working with education 521 01:18:14.160 --> 01:18:17.080 from the North. and they are not here. 522 01:18:17.360 --> 01:18:21.389 and this is something that we need to look at ourselves 523 01:18:21.500 --> 01:18:22.600 because 524 01:18:22.770 --> 01:18:40.629 we have been working with colleagues in Europe, in Italy. like Pellegrini. Yes, it just came, and you're the only one, not from the South. Maybe you are from South Italy. 525 01:18:40.760 --> 01:18:41.620 so 526 01:18:41.940 --> 01:18:43.940 not least the right. 527 01:18:43.990 --> 01:18:48.600 the dark things. It is quite different of national, not because of the 528 01:18:49.430 --> 01:18:53.799 yes, it is. Yes, Katya. 529 01:18:56.020 --> 01:19:09.420 I just kind of for me one of the things that it's very important. I do a lot of participant reaction research. I'm from Chile. I live in Chile 530 01:19:09.430 --> 01:19:10.810 and 531 01:19:10.960 --> 01:19:39.140 and one of the things that we've been discussing a lot with people who follow this type of collaborative research is how we are. We continue to be left at the margins of kind of mainstream academia because as Jose, Manuel was saying, you were saying, when you work with communities, the times of communities are not the times of the kind of neoliberal productivity. 532 01:19:39.140 --> 01:19:54.950 So we engage in a long-term relationship, in our relationship of friendship, of of love, at the same time of of support, of care that are completely disregarded by 533 01:19:55.020 --> 01:20:00.300 the institutions we work we work in. So. And 534 01:20:00.430 --> 01:20:11.219 we are having this conversation here about this. And I think it's very important to kind of multiply this type of engagements, because 535 01:20:11.330 --> 01:20:32.010 while we are doing collaborative collaborative research, now, for example, now, I have to just connect to an online meeting with my Chilean people because we are creating a collective book with members of a community. that means that I'm creating that book that is not going to help me at all with my academic career, because it's worthless 536 01:20:32.010 --> 01:20:50.380 for all the things that the tick, the boxes you have to take. If you want to get a job, or if you want to get promoted. So you do all of this work, which is praxis and political praxis, but has no value for scholarship. 537 01:20:50.550 --> 01:20:58.699 and that is, and I wonder if this is a comment more than a question. 538 01:20:59.220 --> 01:21:27.370 how we make it, how we make this work because we are burned out. We are very tired, we we, we have to do the academic work, but at the same time we are kind of not writing from our desks. We are going to the communities we are there, and we are doing double work all the time, and capitalism is taking us time. So all about capitalism is still in our living time. So 539 01:21:28.200 --> 01:21:45.559 I don't know. I I'm we're going to present in this a panel. If you are interested in Thursday at a 3 30. It's upon a collaborative research and social movement. It's here at the ground as well. So it's from the group of 47. So there! I think we can expand a little bit more on that. 540 01:21:48.510 --> 01:21:52.179 But love it, love it, love it. 541 01:21:52.230 --> 01:21:56.470 Thank you. 542 01:21:56.750 --> 01:21:57.840 Jose Manuel Grima: I you go. 543 01:21:57.950 --> 01:21:58.780 Oh. 544 01:21:58.890 --> 01:22:09.270 this press. 545 01:22:10.020 --> 01:22:23.699 2 2 things I want to invoke. Ok. San Berry was a president of Oursitan Swedish, and he was doing this kind of research in Volvo. 546 01:22:24.140 --> 01:22:34.840 And so he asked, workers at Bolvo plants in the west of Sweden. So what would you suggest to improve 547 01:22:35.910 --> 01:22:39.650 the organizational design? 548 01:22:39.770 --> 01:22:42.859 How would we improve techniques? 549 01:22:43.210 --> 01:22:46.809 I mean everything. 550 01:22:47.400 --> 01:22:49.240 And massive 551 01:22:50.500 --> 01:22:52.859 responses came from the workers. 552 01:22:52.900 --> 01:22:59.389 So Ok, I said, and why didn't you tell us earlier? And then the workers said they didn't ask us. 553 01:23:00.730 --> 01:23:16.439 So that's a beautiful example. And okay, has been one, not only president of our city, but really one of these still productive sociologists in this area, and 554 01:23:16.730 --> 01:23:19.789 something that has to do with your question. 555 01:23:20.590 --> 01:23:31.049 on reciprocal dialogue. We will address this on on Saturday. 556 01:23:31.390 --> 01:23:36.460 and it's the the notion of empowerment 557 01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:39.550 which is very much involved. 558 01:23:39.770 --> 01:23:50.829 and very seldom done. So what Kathya is doing, what Alberto is doing in Benos Aires are examples of the kind of research that is empowering. 559 01:23:50.970 --> 01:23:58.150 because as people get engaged and become a community. it integrates 560 01:23:58.240 --> 01:24:03.560 researchers and researched, and this distinction vanishes. 561 01:24:03.820 --> 01:24:04.970 and then 562 01:24:05.020 --> 01:24:07.579 it has political consequences. 563 01:24:07.960 --> 01:24:23.039 because the researchers identify their identity, expands to integrate the identity of people, struggle in the neighborhood, in the work center, and so on and so forth. 564 01:24:23.290 --> 01:24:26.209 So and then 565 01:24:26.230 --> 01:24:28.380 it's very inclusive. 566 01:24:29.390 --> 01:24:30.550 So 567 01:24:30.740 --> 01:24:33.989 the census you could say. 568 01:24:34.420 --> 01:24:37.009 we speak a lot about democracy. 569 01:24:37.450 --> 01:24:41.920 But you see what democracy means today. Right? 570 01:24:42.820 --> 01:24:46.639 A Populist democracy is not democracy. 571 01:24:47.570 --> 01:24:56.629 you know you get the votes, the number of the votes. But is it quality, democracy? Is it given the voice or the opposite? 572 01:24:56.750 --> 01:25:02.569 So it is a power dimension, and then democracy is about the production of power. 573 01:25:02.630 --> 01:25:05.029 but about distribution it equally 574 01:25:06.310 --> 01:25:25.769 one person, one vote again, everyone having equal value. So tas for us, and I think our helper left Oliver, so I don't know if we can get access to my going back to my thing. But please go ahead with your question. Recommend, please take it. 575 01:25:25.889 --> 01:25:27.419 Take the forest, yours 576 01:25:31.910 --> 01:25:40.149 and the thank you as real. I'm Das Rachetty. I'm the president of Research Committee 10, 577 01:25:40.340 --> 01:25:50.749 and there's just a few comments I thought I needed to make before the session ended. We will have a chance for you to speak as well. 578 01:25:50.830 --> 01:26:01.539 Some general points, I think. Neoliberal education has taken over their neoliberal management throughout the world. What Katya was speaking about 579 01:26:01.610 --> 01:26:31.430 in South America is true of Africa as well. In South Africa. Academics are forced into the academic paper chase. It's about producing papers, the quality of which is not questioned. there's simply a list of journals in which people are supposed to publish, and if you publish in there, then that's grounds for your promotion, for a whole range of rewards in Academia, so that exists, and those 580 01:26:31.430 --> 01:26:42.389 of us who work in communities who have done community work for most of our lives are not rewarded for it in a university context. But I think the intrinsic rewards 581 01:26:42.660 --> 01:27:06.949 of doing work that contributes to community upliftment development democratization is something that you you can't, I think quantify. But There are people all over the world who appreciate the work that we do the work that you are doing in communities, and all I can say is, continue the good work. 582 01:27:07.080 --> 01:27:37.110 the on the question of language. We, the there are 3 official languages of the International Sociological Association. It's English, Spanish, and French, and I remember in the past we had simultaneous translation facilities, so that at every meeting like this. whichever of those 3 languages you understood, you would get a set of headphones, and you could connect in and listen to it in the language of your choice. 583 01:27:37.309 --> 01:28:01.909 and because of financial and other issues. I see that is not being done, even in the plenaries. That's not being done which alienates a large number of people who are not English. First language speakers, because conceptual clarity is not there. Even if you understand English, it doesn't mean you understand the way in which a concept is being used sociologically or contextually. 584 01:28:02.160 --> 01:28:21.729 And I think having sociologists to do that, translation is critical for us to understand each other in the dialogical way that is being proposed in this session, and to understand the dialectics of that as well. So as our C. 10, I'm saying that we should actually make that representation 585 01:28:21.750 --> 01:28:31.650 to talk about the poverty of a conference like this. in the light of the the language deficiency that we experience 586 01:28:31.860 --> 01:28:56.320 in saying that I want to say thank you very much indeed. for volunteering to translate and for doing such a good job under those circumstances, and I would like to invite you to join our C. 10 As a. As a member of our C. 10, we having our business meeting on Thursday at 7 30 here in this renew, M. 12. I think it is. 587 01:28:56.330 --> 01:29:17.519 and it'd be great to have you there as a member, and possibly also as a future member of the board of our Sitin. apparently we are supposed to find younger people, and so I'm inviting you to be there because the veterans are still in control of Rc. 10. 588 01:29:17.610 --> 01:29:36.730 Then, in in terms of that conceptual clarity, Israel mentioned that I was critical of something he said. What he said was, he used the word non-white, which people all over the world use in the South African context because of the ideology of black consciousness. 589 01:29:38.010 --> 01:29:44.669 and because of the dehumanizing of people who were not white. we rejected outright 590 01:29:44.680 --> 01:29:53.959 the concept of non-white because we were non-human, and they dehumanized us through calling us a non-entity. 591 01:29:54.250 --> 01:30:05.960 So that word none is extremely problematic for us and sensitive to us. in South Africa. But it's not necessarily the case or known elsewhere in the world 592 01:30:06.160 --> 01:30:24.150 ere. 593 01:30:24.150 --> 01:30:48.199 And that was the ideology of Steve Bico and other South African leaders. that that really gave us the concentrated us to become academics with a social conscience, and to work towards the democratization of society and academia as well, so I just wanted to talk about that conceptual clarity in relation to the the language issues. 594 01:30:48.460 --> 01:30:54.610 And then the last point I want to make is that there's 595 01:30:55.370 --> 01:31:04.519 no more than 10 people in every session. and that says something about the decline of the Isa. 596 01:31:04.530 --> 01:31:22.190 I remember speaking at an Rc. 10 session in the Isa with 200 people in in Billa. Felt in Germany, even in Madrid. before that. And you had 100 200 people at Rc. 10 sessions. 597 01:31:22.230 --> 01:31:24.489 And now we battle to get in. So 598 01:31:24.730 --> 01:31:27.590 the question is, why and 599 01:31:28.180 --> 01:31:43.839 how are we going to approach this going forward. Why is it that we haven't been focused? opted for correct strategies to ensure optimal participation in our meetings? It's online. So 600 01:31:43.840 --> 01:32:07.420 why can't we have more than just 4 or 5 people. Is it because of the conference fee? I understand that a lot of people couldn't come to Australia. It's it's expensive. But online participation is not necessarily expensive. But people would have to register to participate online. So we would need to discuss that in a little more detail as well, and come up with very focused strategies to revive 601 01:32:07.420 --> 01:32:23.310 the the vibrancy that we experienced over the past. Certainly 30 years that I've been involved in Rc. 10. So thank you for giving me the opportunity as you, and thank you for stimulating the debate on such a relevant 602 01:32:23.470 --> 01:32:30.379 thank you very much desolate. Let me bring 1 point 603 01:32:30.590 --> 01:32:37.450 about how to publish Eric Leonard 604 01:32:37.630 --> 01:32:43.540 of this watching us and myself belong to Alara. 605 01:32:43.600 --> 01:32:48.500 were in the editorial board of Alara. based in Australia. 606 01:32:48.750 --> 01:32:56.090 and he's the Australian, or whatever Association. It's a journal also called Alara. 607 01:32:56.220 --> 01:33:00.350 and I have suggested, and it seconded me. 608 01:33:00.430 --> 01:33:07.300 So your papers from this conference and previous conference. We have lots of quality papers 609 01:33:07.470 --> 01:33:09.270 in this journal. 610 01:33:09.710 --> 01:33:20.780 the former president, Colin Bradley. We had a session, but I had problems with the visa, so I had to rebook my flight. 611 01:33:21.220 --> 01:33:38.720 which cost me enormously the visa. I panic because I had the visa, and then they asked me to pay 135 Australian dollars and €80 to pay for the re-booking and the Conference. 612 01:33:38.840 --> 01:33:57.840 I asked the President I was going to approach the Australian Association if they could refund me, because I'm not supported by the University. I am a retired poor pioneer in a very rich country, which brings another point that I hope desert brings it to the Isa. 613 01:33:58.490 --> 01:34:06.360 For many years I brought the issue to no vain that in the North they are people like myself. 614 01:34:06.460 --> 01:34:09.489 that have very poor incomes 615 01:34:09.580 --> 01:34:12.039 more than many of my Southern colleagues. 616 01:34:12.680 --> 01:34:18.459 I survive. To give you an example, concrete example with €1,300. 617 01:34:18.950 --> 01:34:25.000 This is my. The rent of the apartment is €600, 618 01:34:25.470 --> 01:34:45.029 and you know so this is a reality. And I brought this to Isabella and Juan, or and over. Yes, but how do we do? When are we intelligent enough to find a solution? So that the registration to come to the Congress is not €400, because I live in a rich country. 619 01:34:45.080 --> 01:34:49.679 He was paid by Rco. 5, which was very generous. 620 01:34:49.900 --> 01:34:58.020 but you know, so the issues practically should need to be addressed that has to do with common sense. 621 01:34:58.060 --> 01:35:00.909 with equity, with democracy. 622 01:35:00.920 --> 01:35:21.929 And anyway, Isabela is leaving us. But there was not much willingness to deal with the issue. So about then publishing, please, Kathya in Chile and Jose, Manuel and Alberta. They have been present in very good papers in the same line. As Osse Manuan. 623 01:35:22.080 --> 01:35:28.840 we have a venue. Not the only one is a Lara, but so it happens that we 624 01:35:28.930 --> 01:35:40.649 in the total board I can influence. So if you have papers about the scientific value of action, research, and participatory action research. 625 01:35:40.660 --> 01:35:44.859 I mentioned Eric's doctor Work, a massive orc. 626 01:35:45.950 --> 01:35:46.850 and 627 01:35:47.690 --> 01:35:50.670 he argues with 628 01:35:52.120 --> 01:35:57.790 logic and empirical documentation 629 01:35:57.970 --> 01:36:21.519 that they say we. When I say that in conversion research, I'm first trained as an agricultural engineer, a very quantitative background. My masters was in very quantitative. So I've done factor in I blood path analysis. So. And then I left it. When I moved to the field of ethnicity and ethnic identity and other issues. 630 01:36:22.650 --> 01:36:32.269 the claim is that participatory action research actually brings more valid data 631 01:36:33.400 --> 01:36:38.649 because because closer to reality. So qualitative research. 632 01:36:40.110 --> 01:36:51.160 reliability. one life stories you could use in Chile. in the and what whoever you are. 633 01:36:52.490 --> 01:37:02.490 and it's interesting. The Committee on here in his on Biography, one of I know if you still alive, Daniel Barton. 634 01:37:02.860 --> 01:37:13.380 He was the Guru of quantitative methodology in France until he read, she right meals the sociological imagination. 635 01:37:13.610 --> 01:37:16.370 So when I ask 636 01:37:16.730 --> 01:37:20.609 the organizers to get me 637 01:37:21.100 --> 01:37:22.880 solidarity housing. 638 01:37:24.100 --> 01:37:27.920 cheap housing. university residence housing. 639 01:37:27.930 --> 01:37:36.410 he said. Oh, it's a great idea. But the business that organized it. Congress don't accept this, and there were reasons. 640 01:37:36.490 --> 01:37:59.240 But you know, fucking reasons. There were no reasons. They just were insensitive to people that like me, that I had to borrow money to pay for this expensive residence. That oblige me to take a taxi to come to the venue. So so they were. Aren't responsive. If you want to take this issue, doesn't it, to the business meeting of Isa? 641 01:37:59.280 --> 01:38:02.680 So we can't publish. 642 01:38:03.100 --> 01:38:09.309 We have 5 min, and I don't know what happened. We were supposed to stay with us for 2 h. 643 01:38:09.470 --> 01:38:12.530 but he's not here. You can mention that as well. 644 01:38:12.590 --> 01:38:17.789 So one of the points I'm bringing, and it was mentioned is attitude 645 01:38:19.570 --> 01:38:21.130 so. 646 01:38:22.560 --> 01:38:26.830 and flairy was very clear on that. 647 01:38:28.010 --> 01:38:41.219 But I loved the formulation I heard from Swedish colleague engaged with a topic that will be addressed by R. C. O. 5. 648 01:38:41.280 --> 01:38:50.860 It's about the Palestinian Israeli conflict by Rhoda Red in from their modes. and 649 01:38:52.190 --> 01:38:53.360 he said. 650 01:38:54.980 --> 01:38:58.360 to what is the proper attitude 651 01:38:58.870 --> 01:39:05.010 to acknowledge humbly that we know some and you know some. 652 01:39:05.870 --> 01:39:11.060 Therefore we can learn from each other with openness. 653 01:39:11.150 --> 01:39:15.619 But if I am fundamentalist, the topic you addressed. 654 01:39:15.780 --> 01:39:17.940 and I know everything. 655 01:39:18.360 --> 01:39:25.960 and I have the only valid belief. and are the beliefs not only wrong, but they are threatening. 656 01:39:26.490 --> 01:39:38.380 so much so that you need to punish a Rushman who has his name, Rosie, for writing the Saturn verses and meet my children. 657 01:39:39.300 --> 01:39:43.789 He's I mean he was, I mean. He was invited to be dealt 658 01:39:43.920 --> 01:39:51.959 in the name of beliefs. So you say, the dialogic attitude is an attitude of humbleness. 659 01:39:53.020 --> 01:39:54.110 not easy 660 01:39:54.600 --> 01:40:10.810 intellectuals. We are married with our beliefs, and you know, so if somebody is saying you're wrong, it's like they are insulting our mothers, you know. It's so so so, and humbled as 661 01:40:11.140 --> 01:40:15.499 it's value, a virtual, an attribute, that 662 01:40:15.710 --> 01:40:22.989 our egotist, you know we are formed in universities, and we are deformed. 663 01:40:23.450 --> 01:40:29.149 We are supposed to value more because we know more 664 01:40:29.350 --> 01:40:32.109 the banking approach to education. 665 01:40:33.000 --> 01:40:41.429 We know the division between one standing here and this. I wanted to do a circle. 666 01:40:41.560 --> 01:40:48.569 This is a Freerian approach. because in a circle we look at each other. we greet each other. 667 01:40:49.610 --> 01:40:54.299 We break through the geometry of oppression of this room 668 01:40:55.100 --> 01:41:03.050 in a circle, in a magic circle in the Pentagon circle. We practice democracy. 669 01:41:03.230 --> 01:41:05.800 and we acknowledged our equal value. 670 01:41:05.890 --> 01:41:08.990 I've done this with peasants. I've done this with, you know. 671 01:41:09.140 --> 01:41:16.540 all kinds of people, and we have a few minutes. And, Julia, are you still with us. 672 01:41:16.990 --> 01:41:25.249 Julia? Hello! I hope you are still with me. Your questions. Do you have questions or comments. 673 01:41:25.680 --> 01:41:27.110 And then you close 674 01:41:27.170 --> 01:41:29.850 this lovely session. Today 675 01:41:31.040 --> 01:41:33.939 Julia Kurz: I'm very impressed. You haven't forgotten me. 676 01:41:34.870 --> 01:41:37.470 Julia Kurz: Yeah. Also, I'm 677 01:41:37.540 --> 01:41:40.759 Julia Kurz: on trust online. Still, a picture. 678 01:41:40.810 --> 01:41:44.449 Julia Kurz: I'm not from the cloud, the South. 679 01:41:45.470 --> 01:41:49.319 Julia Kurz: I'm from Germany, Middle Europe, you know. 680 01:41:49.590 --> 01:42:01.640 Julia Kurz: My travel to Australia is paid by University by German taxpayers. But I? No, I I appreciate the notion of income in 681 01:42:01.670 --> 01:42:06.060 Julia Kurz: European academic middle class. Perhaps you know. 682 01:42:06.210 --> 01:42:10.099 Julia Kurz: it's not every time that night before you 683 01:42:10.360 --> 01:42:12.229 Julia Kurz: has been a professorship. 684 01:42:13.590 --> 01:42:17.920 Julia Kurz: Then it's okay. Then it's very okay off in Germany, at least. 685 01:42:18.350 --> 01:42:26.329 Julia Kurz: But before the professorship it is not that nice and social security systems in Europe are damaged. 686 01:42:26.440 --> 01:42:29.619 Julia Kurz: really damaged for many, many people in Europe. 687 01:42:30.110 --> 01:42:47.020 Julia Kurz: And and yeah, that's sometimes a problem in Europe, too. And this is really intersectional. There are really intersectional problems in Europe. When we speaking about a refugee crisis and why 688 01:42:47.180 --> 01:42:59.510 Julia Kurz: there are so much crisis, this intersectional problems, I I think at least you know. Yeah. so and so I'm really appreciate this. 689 01:42:59.930 --> 01:43:11.580 Julia Kurz: you know. I cannot see it at all. I do not know where is there? But I I have a go to talk, and I will help to talk at Saturday morning 690 01:43:12.010 --> 01:43:25.070 Julia Kurz: about this empowering for participation. and then just Use this opportunity to to make it a little bit marketing for it. Come to us in a Saturday morning. 691 01:43:25.100 --> 01:43:29.539 Julia Kurz: and it to this great 692 01:43:31.250 --> 01:43:36.000 that you are presenting on Saturday morning. At what time 693 01:43:36.540 --> 01:43:38.150 Julia Kurz: 8, 694 01:43:39.480 --> 01:43:44.920 Julia Kurz: 90'clock. And I'm not now. I'm I think I am the 695 01:43:45.700 --> 01:43:47.799 Julia Kurz: yeah. I'm a new panel, you know. 696 01:43:47.880 --> 01:44:03.729 Yes, I am presenting in your window. Yeah. 697 01:44:03.970 --> 01:44:12.219 session. So we are already meeting your Li. I see, on on Saturday. I remember 698 01:44:12.380 --> 01:44:26.640 not being supported by universities as a marginal sociologist from the fringes. As a marginal man. I've slept in the central stations with the train at airports 699 01:44:26.660 --> 01:44:31.219 many times. but I survived. and I'm 700 01:44:31.330 --> 01:44:35.119 still to be. I think this is my last Sociology Congress. 701 01:44:35.160 --> 01:44:38.880 I think it's time for the younger people to take over. 702 01:44:38.930 --> 01:44:54.850 But anyway, that's one way I've kept my professional academic identity as an engaged researcher and high educator, since 1,967 in Pero, Mexico, Sweden. 703 01:44:55.480 --> 01:45:08.360 So an applaud to all of us. Thank you. Gracious, Manuel Alberta. Okay, can we take a collective picture? Yes. 704 01:45:08.640 --> 01:45:10.180 see on Saturday.