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Okay. All right. Thank you everyone for coming today and all of you online. I'd like to welcome you all to the session today on formal and informal care in later life.

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And the way we'll run the session is each speaker will speak for 15 min and then we'll have 5 min of questions.

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Immediately after each presentation and if there are time for further questions we'll save them till the end. I'll run things quite tightly because we've got quite a full session today.

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So first of all I would like to invite Gigi Lam to come and give her presentation pilot scheme on community care service stature for the elderly in Hong Kong.

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Okay, thank you.

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Good morning, Chair. Frescenters and the audience. Today, I'm very honored to present a evolutionary research on the water system of the CCS Community Care Service in Hong Kong.

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And, Okay.

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Let me just give the our life first.

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First, I would like to give a very brief background of the community care service in Hong Kong and I will use CCS as a short term to con this long form community cash service.

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It will be followed by an introduction of Asian policy in Hong Kong. Then the focus will be put on the panel scheme or community care service voucher for the elderly.

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And then the next one will be the reshot objective. It will be followed by the methodology and the last part is the result.

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At the Asian policy in Hong Kong basically can be summarized in 3 different words. The first word is aging in place and I think most of us are very familiar with this term.

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It means that we encourage the elder to stay at home. But you know some of the elders may not be so appropriate or suitable to stay at home.

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That's why we have the second component. The second component is institutional care as backup. Institutional care mainly refer to the elderly home.

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But this one will be treated as the last resort. That's when family is still the basic unit to take care of the elderly in Hong Kong.

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But of course the last one is the complementary element which is continuum of care. That means if the elders should stay at elderly home.

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We have another term residential care home. We expect them to stay at the same one instead of changing no matter their health or deteriorate.

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So it means we actually encourage the elders to stay at the same elderly home. So basically, these are the 3 main features of the aging policy in Hong Kong.

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Elderly policy can be focused on different aspects, including residential care service or community care service or a housing service.

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But my presentation will mainly focus on CCS, community care service for elderly. In Hong Kong, there are 3 major features of CCS.

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The first feature is about the funding mode. The fun thing is very simple. It is largely subsidized by the government.

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So how large is it? So the component is about 90% and 96% of the unicorns.

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That does mean it is very carefully depend on the public finance. The second feature is our soul reliant on public CCS provision.

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So this the second one actually is going hand in hand with the first one. Because of the high cost, high labor cost of the CCS, the private market can be said, the private market can can be said no more.

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And then the last one is the agency direct model. Because this CCS is provide by the government mainly and it will limit the choice.

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The elders may not have much freedom to choose a man for example to service provider types of surfaces and the surface quality.

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So in some, these are the 3 major features of CCS.

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Government may actually run some evaluation research in Hong Kong and then there are some suggestion about the CCS and Before before, this evolutionary research has been conducted in fair there is no water system.

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No. And I starting from 2,014 based on some suggestion of the panel. The government think that, while not we introduced this voucher system of the CCS.

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And this water system has so, so flow characteristic or objective. I will explain this later on. Let me introduce the features first.

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So this voucher system is a parallel, is a trial scheme and it cover 3 different faces. And this scheme is a company follow user approach.

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That mean they will subsidize the elder, the governments do subsidize the user, but the user have the choice to select the service provider or the a combination of surface.

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And then who are eligible for this service? Who need those who wait for either CCS, community care service or residential care service because we have the central waiting line in Hong Kong.

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So if you wait for either CCS or RCS, you may receive some invitation letter.

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From the social welfare department and then you can offer to use the voucher. Of course you can choose not to use.

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And then the choice is to is about the surface provider type of service or the package. Then another feature is is a kind of copayment system.

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In fact, the users still need to pay. But it depends on their income. So these are all the percentage.

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So if the user are not very wealthy then they may just afford 5%. That's the other payment is subsidized by the government.

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So these are called called payment scheme.

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This one was introduced into 2,013 and it is a cut trial system and it is divided into 3 different faces.

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Actually it's still going on. It has not end yet. So, 2 phases have already finished.

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You can see the number here. These are the number of vultures delivered to the user. So in the very first beginning you see the number is very small.

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It's only about 1,000 wages. That mean 1,000 users can choose to use the voucher to offer CCS.

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And that's starting from 2,016 the number vouchers have increased to 7,000 and then up to now the most current period is about 8,000 voters.

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I don't watch the aim. You may be very curious. Must certainly introduce a virtual system. Actually we have no we have not done it before before 2,013.

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So these are the 3 major aims. The first thing of course they want to explore more diverse and flexible mode of the surface delivery.

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This is the first objective. The second one is about the financial situation in Hong Kong because of the heavy component are spent on the public finance especially the elderly surface cover money to think about some methods or alternative to be more reliable financially.

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That's why this is due to deal with the financial deficit. And then the last one is about the features is in with the features because in the previous part we already talked about one feature is the surface provider are mainly come from the government.

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Instead of the private sector, then a power center actually are very weak. It is a non-existent or it is not well developed.

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That's why based on this scheme, government aims to encourage different service provider, especially the private sector.

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These are the 3 major aims.

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Therefore my research I would like to evaluate this power scheme is a couple evaluation research and this advantage of research is to compare 3 different components across the first 2 phases.

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Because the last face is still going on, that's why I have not done any evaluation yet. So Adam, 3 major variables are the utilization rates attrition rate and the reason why the elders are quick the water system.

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And then the last one is to try to identify some factors underlying the effectiveness of the program. Of course, based on the evaluation, we aim to propose some recommendation to the government.

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How to make it better or how to improve.

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That method is the secondary data and then the secondary data is collected by the social welfare department, then all the subjects actually are in clue.

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And that mean the voucher holders will include in the study. And at the period, I cover the first 2.

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First, the first face and the second face.

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So I try to use some diagram to summarize the findings. So the first one is about a utilization rate so I just break down into 2 different phases So maybe I just summarize.

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For the first phase, the percentage of CCS we hold up as quite optimistic who use the voucher are quite optimistic.

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So this is the line is about 50% 50% of that actually have used. And then you see another feature is this lie is about the people who have not used who have not used the CCS weak that the this one actually is on the declining board.

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That's been not many people, not many people have not used CCSW. But another picture is about this increasing line.

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This one is the person who quit the power scheme. But so this is about the first phase. The second face.

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Actually, show a different picture. The number of people of using the CSS we actually is still around 60% but some morning a signal actually had been given by this figure.

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One is there are lots of people on the increasing number have no USC actually. That's when they have not used it.

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And then for the people who quit who will withdraw from this scheme, actually it's also going on rice.

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So that's mean the differences between the first and the second phase is that quite a lot of people quit the scheme and a lot of people have not used scheme.

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Then of course, why? Why is the case? Then I try to break that into the reason here is mainly about a withdrawal of the quit.

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So we can see in I just put that into a free different component. One component is about a system.

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This is about a long-term care service. I just called institution of turnover. This is the first search block.

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The electrodeover is about there or they have they have been taken by the family members or the other other stuff.

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And then the last one is the structural barrier is mainly related to the surface mainly related to the CCS.

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And so the summary of this figure is the structural barrier is quite comparable. Of course it is lower lower than the other 2 but it's quite comparable maybe in 2,040 it keeps a very clear picture is very comparable to the lateral turnover.

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At least for the second phase This one, the structural barrier, the surface-related components, to improve.

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And then you see lots of people, not not a lot, is on the decline. So this floor when you compare this one to the other 2 here this one is relatively small.

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Relatively small the number relative is more that does mean in the second phase we don't know the reason maybe because of the because they wait for the surface already then that's why they quit or because of the other factors including death or taken care by the family surface but the surface we later barrier seems to get improved.

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Maybe the surface quality has already improved.

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Then another picture, a figure 5 and figure 6, are related, oh thank you. Figure 5 and 56 are related to the reasons for withdrawal.

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At least mainly about the first face. So there is a very large component in in Brac. There is no suitable surface package.

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The respondents are all the people who withdraw from the program.

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Then another picture is also about older withdrawal withdrawals. So I'm 59%. All of the people are unwilling to receive the center base.

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They have some hesitation about the CCS. And that another 21 is the other factors. EXPORT, related to their willingness to make the copayment because we say that the system actually is categorized as a capital payment scheme.

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So I maybe just go to this line and then I made it, I need to end this presentation. So what the policy implication for the government, I just retired into 2 past short term and medium term.

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So short term, because of figures 5 and 6. So maybe government need to think of some attractive package mainly in terms of the center base and home based office.

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If you need to make it more attractive or appealing to the older others or maybe more convenient. So in the medium or long term, the finance system needs to be introduced, which may maybe we need to instill some knowledge or we need to have the atmosphere.

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You need to share this kind of thing with a government. And another thing of course is how to build up this kind of culture or cultivate a culture of having this kind of shared responsibility among individual government or NGO or private sector.

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So it comes the end of my presentation. Thank you so much for your attention and I'm strongly welcome your questions and comment.

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Thank you. Thank you.

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St. Jamie's great to see that you don't see the people online. Sure, sure.

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Thank you very much for such an interesting presentation. Are there any questions? We've got a few minutes for questions.

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Does anyone have any questions? The duty? Yes, would you mind coming up to the microphone? I'll just make sure it's on.

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Yes.

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Thank you for a wonderful presentation. My name is Karolina Nolinda and I'm from the University of Diablo in Sweden.

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Yeah, I have a question regarding Like giving an example in Sweden we have this public founded Belfast system for What the end of care and the for the 2 last decade has been a switch from the public founded Belfer towards a private.

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And. The private, elder care. So my question is, could you elaborate why the government have a strive for the for the private and the care.

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Thank you. Thanks for your question. Government has some motivation to do so. They actually did the environmental research on the CCS and RCS community cash office and residential cash office respectively and for the residential cash office they are already in in still this car private component into the elderly home.

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That's been the private sector actually are also the providers of the CCI, RCS, RESIDATIONAL CASH Office.

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That's the major reason why government certainly had this kind of idea from 2,030 onwards one major reason is because of the recommendation by the panel and at the panel think if we still go on this kind of financial mode it will affect the financial situation of the whole government because you know the budget expanding on the average traffic is very high, very high in Hong Kong.

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They have this worry. Another research is they think that if we continue this kind of public fund more sometimes it may not give a lot of freedom or choice to the surface user because you just have this one, have this package and then if you are not satisfied with the surface that we actually cannot have any choice you still need to stick to this car.

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FACe because the private sector actually is very undeveloped in Hong Kong. Then a government saying, oh, why not we have this kind of try or we have this kind of timing and then to empower empower the other user.

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That's why one thing is they want to change from the agency direct model to the customer customer direct model that's been they want to give them more choice another reason is because it's very carefully subsidized by the government and then it did not give much room to the private sector.

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It is really long a system. One in one passage it used this word no existent the pileetter is non-existent.

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That the last reason is they would like to develop this private sector because in this trial scheme the number of surface provider has increased.

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I mean the private sector in the very first beginning is around 60 something but now it's already 227 that is other 3 major reason why Hong Kong suddenly had this idea but you know they just a trial scheme we don't know we don't know how to move or maybe it depends on the evolution maybe some people else will do

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it and then based on the imagination that we need to figure out what is our future pathway.

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Any other questions? I just have a question if that's okay. I'm interested if in whether or not you think the government has looked at the other countries that have used a consumer directed care model or about to system and the kind of outcomes.

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I'm also wondering whether whether you have seen the entry of new providers into the market as a result of this pilot and whether you have seen the entry of new providers into the market as a result of this pilot and whether they've tended to be for profit or not for profit providers and also did you ask Did you ask the people who chose not to

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use the scheme why they didn't use the scheme? Thanks for your question. So the first question is, yes, government has done so.

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For example, government has taken reference of Japan and Germany. And they actually draw a reference from the insurance system because of a different term, short term.

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Because of a different term, short term, long term and midterm and then they think that oh we may follow some successful model and midterm and then they think that oh we may follow some successful model that's why government has incorporated some successful model.

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From Asian countries and because of the culture, the similarities. So that's why, yes, the question, yes, yes, the answer is yes.

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The second question is about whether they will be interested in joining this satellite. It depends because of the profit margin.

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The labor court in Homer is very, very high. And then now we actually have this argument whether we need to request some important labor from outside world.

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There we have a lot of debate. Naturally, this I come labor shortage. Then the cost is so high, is not very attractive at all.

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That's why the saturation has long existed for so many years. But of course I think one of the optimistic or very good signal is the number of private providers has increased.

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Pafety is a very good signal, but I don't know. I'm not sure whether they will continue.

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Because they can receive money now. It's a car called payment scheme. So the government actually still subsidized.

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And the last one is the service provided the power world. We need to see, I think we need to depend.

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It really depends on the evaluation part because government actually has request some university, the University of Hong Kong to do this inaratory research.

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And then it paints all the result. So because it is still going on, it has not finished yet.

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Then we need to see it depends. It depends on quite a lot of factors. So the answer is yes, no, yes or no.

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So we are not so sure. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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And thanks for a very interesting presentation. I'd now like to invite Monica Palmerger to present her paper.

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Monica, if I could ask you to share your screen that would be fabulous. Wonderful.

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OK, excellent. So I'll just give you a little, message when there's 2 min to go.

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Thank you. Thank you so much Mira for sharing this session. I'm very happy to present today although it's 10'clock in the morning here in Vienna.

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The presentation today. Is tied to the Hing in times of the pandemic experiencing the COVID-19 pandemic in care institutions and the research it's based on was contacted with my colleague who is also from the University of Vienna.

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So the central question we. Investigate it. And now.

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Okay.

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Does not go further. Let's see. Was how do all the persons make sense of the COVID pandemic and how do they relate it narratively to other current and previous situations they have.

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Perceived as crisis. And. We did field work andographic fieldwork between May, 2022 and February 2023.

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Into selected retirement homes in We approached residence through different avenues, first through participant observation in communal activities.

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Where we examined the way residents interacted among each other and how they made sense of the pandemic. Situation and second through narrative interviews which were contacted in a one to one setting.

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They took place in in this studio flat in in the retirement home and it took about one or one to 2 h.

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And very recorded and transcribed.

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Our research participants were born between 1927 and 1950 most of the research participants were in their nineties or late eighties.

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The vast majority of residents in this 2 retirement homes were born in Austria with only a few exceptions. And residents mainly had a Christian background with attachments to the Catholic denomination for the most part followed by protestants and orthodox Christians.

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Some identified themselves as. It is, known as Jewish. So we do not cover the perspective of, Jewish, of the same generation here.

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The great majority of our interlocutors were born before, 1940, so they held a personal memories of World War 2 and childhood memories.

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And, in each of the 2 retirement homes we interacted more closely with 15, participants of whom about 10 were women and 5 men and this equals the overall change division in the retirement homes.

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Most of our interlocutors were, came from originally from working class background or middle class.

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And, these retirement home system retirement homes were, socially graded and subsidized.

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In our pursuit to study, the way all the persons make sense of the pandemic. We adopted a narrative approach to aging.

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After all narratives give meaning to events and experiences. Naratives we see as an avenue to understanding what meaning people give to experience and we follow a life course and lifespan perspective and understand all the age.

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As a face that importantly entails preoccupation with the integration of the trends in life.

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Saying this we did not. I expect to find neatly and, coherent narratives.

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And we actually encountered also quite some so also generational differences in making sense of experiences appear as relevant in our research and role of generation.

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In regard to narratives of crisis that we were interested in. We, would like to highlight a 3 characteristics of prices.

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That we see as important in the discussion of narratives of crisis. First, crisis serve as a dominant representation of our time in almost every newspaper we read about the accumulation of prices feed in health crisis, we read about the accumulation of prices, feed in health crisis, inflation or the climate crisis.

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In our work, however, we are and we understand crisis as periods of uncertainty. And a rupture of what people perceive as normal life.

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Well, we start from a person level. We are also interested in the social dimension and we build on the assumption that crisis require increased social reflectivity and efforts of sense making through narratives within interaction with others.

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Okay.

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Let me say a few words about the institutions in which our field work took place. The 2 retirement homes were beneath ethnographic fees working provided living arrangements for a range of needs from studio flats for one or 2 people.

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Who live independently to beds for all the people with increased care needs. Residents take shared meals in the facility and are free to participate in several activities that are offered.

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During the pandemic life in these houses changed dramatically. In 2020 between March and May the houses were practically closed for any contact with the world outside.

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Also inside the houses, contact between residents was forbidden. Meals were taken in individual rooms. All social activities were cancelled.

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Also after that is succession of changing rules regulated the flow of contact within the houses and with the outside so that many of our interlocutors were unable to clearly see what was what was allowed when at the time of our research, from the outset we're welcome but needed to display a negative PCR test SCV upon

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entering. Activities had slowly begun again and joint meals were offered but residents still had to bear masks in the common rooms.

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Let me know share some preliminary at the findings. First, I would like to say that among the older adults we are, among all the adults we observe.

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Quite some, capacity to reflect on life. Feed in one to one narrative interviews or in the informal conversations that residents had among themselves.

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This does not mean that in the narratives we encountered were always conclusive and coherent.

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Often they were characterized the mixed feelings and the equivalences. On one hand, there was great appreciation for the staff's care efforts during the pandemic.

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On the other hand, their border also worries about possible further lockdown and current time apprehensions concerning a lack of freedom and renewed isolation and loneliness.

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In the words of one of our interlocutors, Mrs. Wending a foreign in 1935.

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Well, I can tell you that it was quite exhausting, especially because we were really controlled here. There were securities here, 24 7.

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They made sure you didn't leave your apartment. Some were disappointed that they were not consulted, that they had no say in the measures taken and that the public was not interested in their life experiences.

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They expressed a sense of being patronized when it came to what was best for them. Others well come measures either because they agreed and felt protected or because they accepted the measures as a necessary evil like Mr. PA born in 1,929.

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Well, I can tell you that it was quite. sorry, that's here.

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Well, and about the pandemic is said, I just wear a mask. It will not kill me. Do this.

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Okay, my daughter was not able to visit me as often for a while, but it passed. In the end, I will also survive this.

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Anyway, I was not given anything in dive. I have always lifted myself up again. That's hardship characterized this cohort.

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Resonates with many of the other narratives we encountered. But also that past experiences of hardship.

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Have taught them a lot in the sense that they trusted that also present hardships like the pandemic will pass.

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Often the memory of one incident. Ticket other memories and then narratives contain reference to several crisis in a person's own lifetime as well as crisis that happened around them.

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All interwoven in our interlocutors accounts. In this way, the Ukraine war played a prominent role.

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This was the case for example for Mrs Maya born in 1938. Who told me in a narrative interview?

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I must say that the war in Ukraine was heavily on me. When there was a siren practice a short while ago, this really got to me.

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I had trouble because during the war when there was an alarm, they sent us home from school and we were ushered into any seller.

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If we didn't reach our own home or our own house and that was horrible and now when I see the pictures from the war in Ukraine when I see the children sitting in cellars and since then I've developed claustrophobia.

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Mrs. Mayer here reflected on how the current war in Ukraine affected her. It seemed to make her more sensitive to what happened around her.

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She found remarkable that even an Austrian rooting siren practice had recently alerted your extra ordinarily something that had not affected her in a long time.

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In this quotation, she draws a connection to her experiences of hearing Well, she was a child in Vienna during World War 2.

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The account continued with her relating this. Past experience to her experience during the COVID pandemic. Where she felt locked in again and parted from family.

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For content contemporary experience of the pandemic and of the meshes of protection were perceived by her in relation to her wartime experience as a child.

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Memories of this time now were even more triggered by TV reports on the war in Ukraine. In their efforts at making sense of the pandemic all the people we spoke to strongly drew on autobiographical memories.

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Narrating the pandemic through earlier life experiences was unsettling but also opened up space for confidence that the pandemic would end like previous crisis.

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All the people we talked to revert it to these memories in efforts to cope with. Unease and distress and also in search of strategies to deal with hardship in the present.

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This we could also observe in group conversations like in a conversation that took place after the weekly memory training.

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A playful communal activity that was slowly reinstituted in the summer of 2,022.

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In the conversation they displayed here. We had 2 main interlocutors, Mrs. Shopa and Miss, Miss Winter.

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And, but also, 3 other other, people and Barbara, the researcher.

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Win Barbara asked, have you ever experienced anything similar similar to the pandemic? Miss Winter, replied, no, I've never experienced anything.

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Anything like it. I didn't have time for that. With work and stuff. And even if something like this already existed, it was never at present in the media as the Corona pandemic, Miss Shoba, On the one hand, that's good.

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But on the other hand, it's not this media presence. I agree with you there. My parents experienced the Spanish flu, but they never talked about such a flurry of activity.

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They got it and they survived. People are becoming more insecure today. It's so widespread.

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So unnecessary is something that would actually be normal. We experienced the smallpox vaccination. It was a compulsory vaccination.

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We got the shot and we all have a mark from it. And then the other is in the round, not in turn making clear that it was normal that the just went along with it in the sense it was just like that.

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No drama.

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2 min, Monica.

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We, thank you. We see this interactions, a quote told story and interactive story that contain joint sense making of the current pandemic.

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And at the same time, contain negotiations of identity and agency.

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To conclude, we encountered specific generational ways of narratively coming to terms with the pandemic.

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Older adults in the 2 retirement homes, narratively processed the pandemic. Individually and in.

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Auto ambulances remained. They set the pandemic in relation with the multiplicity of prices, past and present, societal and more individual crisis.

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And by relating the pandemic to earlier life experiences, disturbing memories came up. But they also found some reassurement.

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Okay, over all the pandemic, for the older people we talked to was not related. It's an all encompassing rupture.

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But more so as temporary and limited. Thank you very much.

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Thanks very much Monica for a really interesting presentation. Are there any questions? Hi Monica.

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I have a question and it's it's with reference to something you said about the participants discussion about what's happening in the media or how crises are represented in the media.

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I'm wondering if they talked. Much more about the digital world and its role in mediating their experience of crisis.

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I saw a really nice presentation yesterday from Loretta Bouldersar and Raylene Wilding who were talking about their concepts of digital kinning and digital homing used within residential aged care facilities to form kind of connections with with people and with place outside of the residential age care facility and I'm wondering whether your participants talked at

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all about you know the role of digital technology in mediating their experiences of this crisis.

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Well, they did not talk too much about how it is mediated like more on a public level. But they were referring to feature media but also sometimes to, their shortage of knowledge, in use of this media during the pandemic actually.

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So just some of our interlocutors were actually able to communicate by our video call for example with their family.

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Outside. But, they, yeah, they started to reflect on it too. But, some also has it very hesitant.

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I have, I'm sure if they would actually want to integrate it into the life they were rather yeah, happy to pick up the phone then to do a video call.

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I remember one particular, woman who was actually who got, a digitized, Yeah, kind of, photo.

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How to frame, very, very, very, she had all the pictures of, her, her children and grandchildren.

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So she appreciated them being close in this way. But, yeah, it was, it was, not as, Yeah, it was not such a big issue for them.

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Okay, thank you. I think we've got one more question we can fit in online. And maculator is that is that how you pronounce it would you like to ask your question

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Yes, absolutely. Perfectly pronounced. I just have a question because, we tend to see in some other studies similar to that one that they also refer things related to giving comfort to their families.

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Like they already had struggle with the situation of World War 2. We had similar situation in Spain because our civil war was just before the World War II.

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So they connected the dots as well. So did they refer something relative to provide comfort to their family members either by phone or anything like that.

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Do you recall something like that in your interviews?

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Yeah, so we did not do a research or we could not do a research during the height of the pandemic.

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So it was, like, between 22 and 23. But, Yeah, but I think then it was it was both it was to comfort themselves and to also provide.

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A strategy of hope, to see more positively into the future, referring back to their experiences that hardship and prices have passed.

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And I and it but it's also you're right I think it's also in it's not for their own self- only but also to, for their own self- only, but also to, comfort others and also to, to, comfort others and also including family members or the younger generations.

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It was something they, to, for others and also including family members or the younger generations. It was something they, others and also including family members or the younger generations.

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It was something they they wanted to share and they also had the feeling that their experiences in their life experiences were actually not taking into account.

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People did not ask them about how they dealt with the pandemic, how they actually put it in a writer perspective.

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They felt like most of the media reports were actually about how to.

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Yeah, how to protect them but not. Yeah, they were not giving voice and and birthday could also reflect and provide maybe some, yeah, provide some insights from their, their life experiences.

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Very nice. Thank you, Monica.

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Thank you for your Chris.

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One more very quick question before we move on to the next. Yes, thank you.

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Thank you Monica for a very interesting presentation. I have a quick question. What explains this gender imbalance?

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The 2 third women and one third men.

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Yeah, I think because we were. Yeah, this, cohort we were looking at was the, were already most of them as I said were in the nineties and late eighties.

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And among this, cohort there is, yeah, there are more, more women than men in Austria because of health but also war.

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Thank you.

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Well.

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Okay.

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Okay, well thank you very much Monica for a very interesting presentation. Now we have a pre-recorded presentation which I will just Get up on the screen.

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Gonzales, thank you for asking us and for listening to us. Hopefully it will work.

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From

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We seem to have lost the sound.

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Come I am a professor at the Department of Sociology. At the university, in Savilla, Spain.

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We are presenting here today. A communication. Made with my colleagues of my the third group at the university and I thought thank you for asking us for listening to us.

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Ex experiences of loneliness and emotional health. Among all the Arabs living in long the long term care facilities in nursing homes.

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This area special project a visa video paper We are working on for 2 years. Going off. This is a big project, starting loneliness in nursing homes and in community growing population and we have did work we have been working for 2 years in long term care facilities in Andalusia, in the south of Spain, one of

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the and or the primitive. And we saw some special problems in the nursing home. We're having traveling all around Andalusia and I'll say it's very big.

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It has like 9 million er, population and

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You know, then the nursing homes are, there are like 600 nursing homes only. 13 are public.

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You know, 500 and a lot. Private or semi private. Hmm We have been working this because Well, you know, holiness is, public health problem.

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Very serious and it's it's very serious in community growing population and in in

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In nursing homes, people living in nursing homes. It affects the whole, it affects the beauty life, it affects the relationship with the family and the friends.

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But this, topic and it's the literary thing about that is very especially scarce mainly from a sociological perspective and we are trying to fill this hole.

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This whole there is almost nothing about this. At least in Andalusia there are some There are some working progress in Madrid, in Catalonia, but but not from pure sociological perspective at and not from a qualitative perspective.

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This product has a qualitative perspective. We presented this 5 days ago. In this, in the same conference.

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But, but, from our qualitative perspective. It's really rare because it's very difficult to access to their nursing homes because they don't want people to see how the people living there in Italy are living.

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Mainly, in the private nursing homes. Well. Objective was to analyze the experiences of loneliness of all their alludes living in nursing homes and we wanted to see how they cope with those issues.

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And we wanted to see how they cope with those issues. And we wanted to see the relationship between loneliness and intensity of the family relationship.

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In this post or postponing pandemic context. In this new normality or wherever I do. You want to call it.

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And we have also a political, let's say, political objective is to develop strategies for architecture monitoring preparation, for the for the development of public policies.

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Community actions to deal with holiness. In the nursing homes. I, hypothesis was clear, in the nursing homes.

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There is a lot of feeling of loneliness. And actually in the quantitative part in the survey we have We have made it with this same people in the nursing home.

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Say, the, prevalence of loneliness was, 80%. While in the community growing population also in Andalusia it's about after in this in Andalusia it's about after in Andalusia it's about after in these new normalities about 50%.

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In people all over 65 years old. Our sample was like we visited the 25 nursing homes.

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The either Republic and the, 14 private. We interviewed, we interviewed with in person semi-structured interviews about adoration about 60 min.

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To Sorry, 300. I'm 19. People over 75 years old. And they have to have to obtain a graduation over 24 in a minute of course, to interview, they didn't have any cognitive impairment.

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This is big. This is week. More than 300 interviews. It's really big.

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It's a unique, study. It's the only one in It's category in Andalusia in Spain.

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And we are really proud of this project. We have a lot of information, a lot of information. Probably too much.

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We are trying to extract now All, all the insights, all the information, all the categories, all the things that all the experiences of other people that they have.

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We have been living and in the nursing homes in this in this last months and years Okay, the guy interview we talked about loneliness mental health mainly we were very interested in the relationship with the family with all the residents with also the workers.

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And their daily life in the nursing home. The interviews They they they weren't easy the field work wasn't easy.

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Actually it was very difficult because there were many restrictions. Because many nursing homes only allowed us to to interview the people in good conditions.

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Many, many, many, many. And they didn't answer our our remains, our phone calls to go there.

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It was like, like this with the APM, with all the protection in the inventory, always, always with a face mask.

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And it was quite difficult. And also we traveled, er, all around London, in almost 8 months and because also we were only we were able to interview the the residents only during like 3 h in the day, in the morning, one in the afternoon because they have, The timetable is very restricted, very close.

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It goes and We were like very, the interviews. Lasted about 60 min. Well, I think was limited.

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I got 5 people. Well. In short, it was very difficult, but very Very satisfying.

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In the mathematical analysis we obtain 17 categories but we are we are only sent them the 5 main results.

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First, there are lots of social and family ties and that foster loneliness clearly even also the risk of sociology or isolation.

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Many of these nursing homes are in in knowing the downtown or in very populated area of the cities many of them are in

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And it's a catastrophic for the residents. For example, this, a mail talking about his song.

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And he said that he's sick if he has to visit me. But not to take the dog out.

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You get tired of taking care of children and

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Well, that's the reality of the of the nursing homes many many of the interviews, work like that like They were like satisfied with the family but with some And let's say

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And

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They actually love their families. But they were not the satisfaction with their relationship. They were, they loved their family by obligation.

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Because his and their family Er, but, er, they're the satisfaction with the relationship and the visits mainly they were really very unsatisfied.

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The second result is that the code it's clear, the COVID pandemic has suchTERATED, the feeling of loneliness and has never liked the have things of context.

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The restriction came to stay and it's terrible for the people and it was like a relief for the family mainly about those who didn't usually who don't usually come to visit them.

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For example, now I'm waiting for my great-grandchildren to come visit me. They've already told me at the nursing home that there will be aION.

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It goes very simple because sometimes they promised the nursing home promised them something It's not going, that was not going to happen.

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The receipts of the family. And the excuse was the restrictions. Third, there is a need for close relationships.

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All of us, but mainly an attention individualized, also

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They will sense of belonging. For example, when I have to wait, I get very nervous, but then I understand it.

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Is yet we are here we are many poppas many our leaders in Spanish

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For, the nursing home is not a home. It's not a home. They don't, they didn't feel like they were living in a new home.

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A suite home is not, is not. And there is a problem of the construction of the organization of the long-term care facilities.

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And this is a public. is a public policy issue.

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Finally. Really this is Very well. And this is, er, to crack. There is a lot of identity They feel like they are no persons anymore There is an organisation of the personality of the people.

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They are not anymore Manolo. They are not anymore Antonio, they are not anymore Michael.

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They are now the guy of the room. 224. Or the guy with the hat.

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And they have no no name they lost they have lost their names And this, where watting is and it's it's it's a One of the most one of the saddest things they told us Here it is as if Judy did not exist.

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And Disc was repeated many times. They don't disturb us. They don't deserve this.

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They don't disturb us also. and this is terrible. This is terrible and we think this is a thing and to think about and Mainly in the public administration finishing with the title of this communication.

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They told us some one guy told us, thank you for asking for listening. And to us and mainly they were happy because We were asking things that They're having, they were not being.

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Ask before and we have to say that thank you guys for all your Yeah live histories for all your time for your time and for helping us to try to help.

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You so Thank you. You have my email for whatever you need. Have a good time there. Thank you.

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Okay, thank you for that interesting presentation.

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That speaker is not online. So we will press straight on ahead because we still have a lot to get through.

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I'd like to invite Ayushi Dubai to present the paper. The paper elderly care family and inheritance.

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Are you there? Are you she?

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Hi, yes.

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. Fabulous. I'll give you a little reminder when there's 2 min to go

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Sure. Is it like, visible, the whole screen? Could you please confirm? Okay, thank you.

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Yes, yes it is. Yeah, thank you.

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Hello everyone. I am Ayushi Dubai PhD scholar in the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences at IIT Canpool, India.

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Professor Jakuburi and I would like to thank the organisers for this opportunity.

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The title of our presentation is Elderly Care, Family and Inheritance. Naratives from the District Court of Ayotia.

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So this is one of the key themes of my doctoral research and I'll begin by outlining the key arguments and we will pay back the layers as we proceed.

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So I'll give you a brief idea about the question of inheritance. Then we'll talk about briefly the overview of the study methodology and we'll close the discussion by revisiting the broader questions.

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Here are the key arguments. So by exploring the theme of elderly care and inheritance in the Indian case, we wish to make a broader argument about the complexity of rights to schools.

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We, here we argue that overemphasis on the language of rights constricts the space for asking the right questions.

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The discussion today will also map the hyper-judicialization of care and maintenance and family property. For the, our study raises the question, who should care for the elderly, between family and state?

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By tracing the legal historical roots of the question from colonial times still now, we found that over the years the tendency of the Indian state has been to shift its responsibility for maintenance and well being of elderly to the domestic sphere.

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And as we proceed, we will see how in doing so the Indian state linked the provision of maintenance to the inducement of inheritance.

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So I would like to highlight that such an assertion where we link maintenance to inheritance ignores the question of class.

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And leaves us to wonder what about the concerns of those elderly who own little or no property in their own right.

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The study also exams the question of testamentary freedom and elderly care. We will go into details later.

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The field here revealed that the downside of full testamentary freedom is the suffering of surviving spouses.

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Now coming to the last point, so, the discussion today will also be on social reactions.

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So in India, we have a law for elderly to demand judicial remedy if families do not maintain them. The field revealed that despite being aware of the legal provisions most elderly, did not want to approach court against their junior ken.

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And we will discuss the why of it as we go. Now let's go into details. Here comes the question of inheritance.

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We know that expectations regarding inheritance affect family ill solidarity. Which is why the inheritance law has a challenging role because on the one hand it has to constantly strive to remain in sync with the evolving notions of family and on the other it has to maintain a delicate balance between individual rights to ownership and families duty

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to provide maintenance and care for those in individuals who bleed it. Since this balance is difficult to maintain, inheritance and maintenance related conflicts often escalate in 2 disputes which initiate their legal life and take shape in district courts.

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And this is where I went for my first round of data collection.

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No, this brings us to our 2 objectives. Our first objective was to explore the relationship between Bitcoin motives, bequest decisions, and elderly care.

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And our second objective was to examine the role of the modern welfare state in the dynamics of maintenance and care.

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And these were the 2 questions that we pursued. First one is how one's Biquist decisions might impact the family care for them or their spouses in old age and second question is who should care for the elderly?

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Our focus here was on Hindu love inheritance. In India, the Hindus comprised an overwhelming majority among the different religions and in India we have personal laws.

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So there is laws for each religion. So I focused on Hindu law of inheritance. For the combined use of socio-legal ethnography and constructivist grounded theory informed my field work that continued for 18 months.

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So how was the data collection process like? So I began the field work in the district court where I analyzed 1 22 inheritance and maintenance disputes and narratives of legal actors and soon I realized that I also needed to listen to the voices of those people who when encountered with a similar conflict choose not to pursue at legal

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action. So what about those people who choose not to not to come to court? So such people are as key or respondent as the people who chose to bring matters to court.

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This is why I arrived at 2 government run. Old age homes in the city as a spin off to my major round of data collection at the district court.

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He, data consisted of interviews with residents, counselors and superintendents. Informal conversations and observations.

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Almost every second person I met there had experienced it to share about how Inhabitants related decisions taken by either them or someone in their family were affecting them.

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In the old age. So total number of interviews in both sides were 63 and there were second resources of data which were law commission reports, NGO reports, government reports.

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Now we'll, discuss the key findings. So this is an important observation I had based on my interactions with residents of old age home.

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What is important to note here is that when failed by family, elderly, view help from state as beneficent and not their citizenship right.

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No while exploring the relationship of elderly care and inheritance, we also found how the categories of age and gender interact with each other.

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So understand this, we need to see this in a view in view of a historic piece of legislation that was much celebrated.

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It was brought in 2,005 and it was about endowing equal rights to daughters in the ancestry property.

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It was based on the assumption that giving right to property will enable welfare of women. What is interesting is that it was also meant to have implications for elderly care.

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It was believed to instill a sense of dread in sons so that they take care of their elderly parents lest their sisters claim their sharing ancestry property.

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But the social reality appears quite different. So a councillor in the old age home told me that those who do not want to take care of the old, readily use this equality argument to shift obligation.

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They ask, why should only sons and daughters-in-law take care of the elderly parents? The councillor added that there were many daughters who claim ancestor property but never fulfilled their duty of maintaining their parents.

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No coming to the question of testamentary freedom and elderly care. So before I go into details, I will brief you on the 2 modes of inheritance.

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So there is a testamentary succession and there is interstate succession. If a person dies Having made a will during the course of his lifetime, then the mode of succession that follows is testamentary succession and conversely if a person dies without having made a bill then the other interstate

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succession follows. Now what I mean by full test geometry freedom, Old Testamentary freedom means that one can fill away one's whole property.

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No, what did I find in fee? So many lawyers expressed that one should not be allowed to villa away the whole property according to them who people who do that suffer later because of lack of elderly care.

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Many elderly respondents in old age home expressed that after willing away their property to their sons or daughters, they were evicted from houses.

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In many such cases, this suffered abuse also. What is interesting to note here is that full testamentary freedom was unknown to the pre colonial Hindu law.

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It only came as a colonial legacy. Now while on the surface, full estimateary freedom may appear as a congratulatory and progressive move for individual rights, there is a catch.

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So except daughters, all other Hindu women's inheritance remains dependent on the tested power of the owner and testator's children are more likely to figure as beneficiaries.

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And what happens in most cases, the surviving spouses are skipped. This leads to misery of many elderly widowed mothers and these are the women I met in old age homes.

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So coming to the question of who should take care of the elderly, that was my second question. Between family and state.

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So to understand this we need to first trace the legal historical roots of the question from colonial times. In colonial times, East India Company formulated a distinction between matters of personal nature and matters of public nature.

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There was a consensus between Indian politicians and the colonial state that for all routine purposes, domestic and family questions were outside the purview of the state.

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And government was reluctant to assume responsibility for poor relief. Or insane asylums and this reluctance.

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From the side of the government was justified by the tension that Indian families looked after their own women, children, poor and lunatic.

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Now we will see how such a reluctance continued in post colonial times. So let us see what the national policy for older persons, 1999 set.

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Let us read the highlighted portions together. So programs will be developed to promote family values, desirability of inter-generational bonding, desirability of meeting filial obligations.

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And so on. Now as we have seen the running thread here through colonial times and post colonial legal history is that over the years the tendency of the Indian state has been to shift its responsibility for maintenance of elderly to domestic sphere and we can find it finally coming to fruition in the 2,007 act.

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So this is, what the app is. The maintenance and welfare of parents and senior citizens act and it says that parents and grandparents who are unable to maintain themselves can demand maintenance from their children and those who are childless who are unable to maintain themselves, they can demand maintenance from their relatives.

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Further, what is important to note here, worthy of attention is that relatives are liable to provide maintenance if they would inherit the property of senior citizens.

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More than one relative and in cases where more than one relative is entitled to inherit, the maintenance shall be payable in proportion to the share to be inherited.

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So it was for the first time in the 2,007 act that inheritance and elderly care were coupled in such an award way.

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There was provision for special tribunals to ensure cut compliance and in cases of non compliance there are provisions of imprisonment and revocation of conditional property transfers.

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So as we discussed, we have a law to demand judicial remedy if families do not maintain their elderly. But among the old age home residents I interviewed, none of them expressed willingness to use the judicial recourse available to them.

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To get maintenance from their families. And this these were a balanced mix of Property than non-profit elderly men and women.

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Many of them were aware of the legal provision but they did not want to approach courts against their junior kin.

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So as we see it becomes a class question when inheritance and elderly care are tied together.

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No, revisiting the broader questions, having covered the legal history of care, maintenance and family property in the Indian case, we leave you with a few questions to think about.

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First, how the individual right to testamentary freedom can be reconciled with the interest of all the members of the family.

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So we can discuss this in details in Q&A if there is a question. The second question is what happens when the modern welfare state uses its authority to shift responsibility for maintaining the elderly to family members rather than accepting its own duty to do so.

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And code. There is this hyper-judicialization of care, maintenance and family property leading us. The state expects elderly to find maintenance via judicial recourse.

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And in the next few slides, I will show. The code spaces where it expects elderly to visit for demanding such rights.

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And you will see the harsh reality and the chaotic reality of it. So this is the bibliography.

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2 min, Ayoshi.

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Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I'll just wrap up. This is the bibliography.

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And this is the district court of Ayodhya, the first site of my data collection. This is the family code.

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This is how the everyday business of the court looks like. So there is chaos, but there is order in this chaos.

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This is where lawyers sit and clients are, welcome. This is how the again a glimpse of everyday life at the code.

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This is one of the old age homes. This is a government run old age home meant for both men and women.

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So there are couples and then there are men here. This is one of the rooms how it looks like.

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This is an old age home meant only for women.

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And this is how their world looks like from outside. Looking forward to hearing your comments and insights.

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Thank you. Thank you.

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Thank you for a really interesting presentation. Sorry? Oh, and we have your color author here in the room.

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Yes.

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Thank you for identifying yourself.

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Hi.

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Hi, Endy. Thank you. Hi. Thank you for a really well-executed deliverance.

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It was a fascinating talk and it had an enormous amount of information and that was what I loved the pictures as well at the end because it gives us a flavor of what you were talking about so you gave the human touch.

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My question was about data volume because you had different sources of data collection and different sites for data collection. But I didn't sense of the data volume and therefore it was difficult to sort of drop my head around when you were saying many or one person or whatever.

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So just a little taste of data will be really useful. And with that said, I will also like to say very much welcome to RC 11.

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We need more socio-Al studies seeing a group. So I hope we'll see you again next time.

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Thank you. Yes, please. That'd be great.

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Shall I respond to this question now and then we can take more? Yeah, thank you.

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That, that was delightful to hear. So, about the data volume. So I had I have collected 122 inheritance and maintenance cases from district court and 63 interviews in total.

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And, out of those, 63, I have mix of 2 old age homes and, lawyers, litigans and court staff.

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So these were the main, like respondents. So 1 22 and 68.

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These are the numbers. And these interviews were like in-depth interviews. yeah.

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Same.

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Thank you very much. We've got one more quick question.

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Hello, Dupi. I am GG from Hong Kong and thanks for giving such an interesting and inspiring presentation.

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I have one question. I actually come from one article before which is about South Korea and then they also mentioned about the concept between the seniority and the equity.

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I think that one is very similar to the situation or what you present previously. You also mentioned the concept between the equity and the seniority.

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Then you also mentioned that the government would like to dedicate a responsibility to the family and that they rather shun the responsibility.

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Then I would like to ask in your opinion how the government can solve this concept because we have the concept in terms of 2 dimensions.

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One is between the seniority versus the equity and then the other concept is between the government and the family in terms of the responsibility sharing.

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Then you mentioned that the family call or the hyper-reditation system has been in force. But I just would like to know apart from those kind of legal systems whether there is any measure or measures Look at that measures undertaken by the government which can solve this concept.

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So thank you so much.

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Thanks for the question. So. Well, so unfortunately like Hong Kong that I have learned today like the system that is in place in Hong Kong that I have learned today, like, the system that is in place in Hong Kong, we do not have the system that is in place in Hong Kong.

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We do not have a similar initiated in India. So here we either have government run old age homes or everything else is upon family to take care and these government-run old age homes are in very bad condition to say the least.

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It's a very distressing and there are a few private care providers but those are very like for the elite class so there's a class question here.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Thank you very much. I wish we could go on on, but we do need to press ahead.

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So thank you for a very, very interesting and thought-provoking presentation. I'd now like, thank you.

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Thank you very much.

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I'd now like to invite Asmita Osari to present her paper.

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Asmeter would you mind sharing your screen?

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Excellent, okay.

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Okay. I will begin in just a minute.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And I'll let you know when there's 2 min to go.

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Sure. Okay. Hi everyone. Thank you very much for see Dr.

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Hamilton for organizing this panel. What I'm going to be presenting today is actually a little different from the submitted apps, right, because there were some inordinate delays, etc, because of IRB clearance.

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So today I'm just gonna be sharing reflections at. Based on my dissertation, which it basically is at the intersection of feminists, gerontology, sociology, and looks at aging.

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And.

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So, societies are aging and you know, this is because of declining fertility.

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They canning mortality rates and changing patterns of migration and the pressures of this aging population have actually meant that there is, you know, barrier to building an expanded caregiving workforce and we see this the world over that a lot of elderly don't have family support right who can sort of assist them as they get old.

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So elderly care systems are actually not able to address this demand. And many countries are not actually well prepared to cope with, you know, these changing demographics.

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And the sociopolitical demographic developments are what I refer to as a global AI crisis. Now population aging is a global reality and you know as people age they require greater assistance and care.

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Of course, this is not to say that, you know, when people are younger, they don't need care.

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I think all of us need care at different points in time, right? But the elderly care is sort of it can be a bit more distinct right because of go more bridges and illnesses etc.

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At this point, what we see is that a lot of the debates around early long term care are very narrow.

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You know, aging of populations, etc. Israeli discussed in gender terms, right?

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Especially in terms of the care giving, burden a lot of women face. Most debates are actually dominated by concerns over fiscal implications, but aging in care is also an issue of gender inequality and as I'll discuss further.

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So there is a very high societal cost, you know, in terms of the policy in action, etc. That we see.

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So who really bears this burden of care? We see that a lot of people, especially elderly women, they don't receive adequate prayer.

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Especially in cases when they are already kept providers, right, whether it's a care worker or a spousal capable, etc.

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Their needs are oftentimes neglected and we actually need to sort of address this and you know think of more equitable ways of addressing this crisis.

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So, KAY-EVO burden actually increases gender inequality. And as I find in my research that, you know, this unequal distribution of care in domestic responsibilities actually reinforces gender inequalities both in private and public spheres.

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Now despite a lot of social cultural changes which have led to greater participation of women in the labor market, there's only been like a slight increase in the participation of men in domestic work, including childcare, and we still see a lot of gender inequalities in the field or reproductive work, you know, especially in terms of

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care, home. household chores looking after children and dependence, etc. Another issue is that you know of the feminines of the how much there is there is an association of care with the feminine scale and that sort of further reinforces care with the feminine scale and that sort of further

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reinforces with the feminine scale and that sort of further reinforces gender stereotypes about the role of men and women in society.

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So in that sense we see that being an informal gaguer as a woman actually as will be to lot of gender inequalities and wages and opportunities.

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You know, and this is something that women are more affected by. That men, especially as they, you know, navigate through professional curios, income tax and retirement rights, etc.

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Despite an increase in employment rate among women, we see that it's often times very frequent for women to actually reduce their work day or lead work to care for dependent family members in the 10 to childcare, right?

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So there are all these consequences wherein women have to cover the responsibilities of paid work while also keeping the responsibilities of domestic chores.

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And if we add to this makes the care of you know the care needed to look after a family member the burden actually becomes unsustainable and that's what some scholars call it triple boredom.

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So in that sense, unequal distribution and burden of informal care between genders actually increases in qualities, right?

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In hell and eventually in society as well. And there are several important reasons why we need to address these gender inequalities etc.

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And when we look in terms of race, cast and class, the situation is even more crazy. So, get crisis then I argue is actually a crisis on gender inequality, you know, and the crisis of feminization of cable.

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It actually exists in a context where, you know, care is not only a commodity and cowork is a social expectation of women and it's not regarded as a high skilled body of adequate wages and decent working conditions.

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We typically see, for example, you know, in India, a lot of older women report poorer health status.

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They have higher unmet health needs, etc. Than men. Men tend to have better access to health care, etc.

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Right. So in this context, etc, when we look at the allocate crisis, the piece of elderly women is sort of their needs, etc.

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Are you know more underrepresented etc. They have less access to social welfare, etc, right?

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In addition to this, a lot of older women actually engage more in unpaid labor. They also have less access to pension availability.

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They have lesser authority over financial resources than men. Poverty is also more common in widows which further increases their vulnerability and health problems.

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We often don't talk about how there is actually no retirement for, you know, someone who's been a home maker all her life, right?

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Because, all households, etc. They are really considered a job, right? But is there any, is there any freedom from that kind of work?

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So who really retires is a fundamental question and who really retires is a fundamental question then and who really receives scare right?

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So in that sense, all these gender-based inequities actually affect the availability of resources that interfere with a kind of care which elderly people receive.

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Now I think what has happened is that because of changes in family structure. Though we all look at it structured right now has also changed, you know.

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We also see a lot of social trends, etc. That have added complexity to family life.

485
01:29:54.000 --> 01:30:06.000
And continuing fragmentation of family, increasing number of elderly singles has led to also chronic housing shortages and it has over staged long term care facilities for the elderly, right?

486
01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:14.000
And this is actually not a consistent trend all over the world. In some countries there are still long-term care for, nursing homes etc.

487
01:30:14.000 --> 01:30:26.000
But like Iuk's presentation or the presentation before me showed that, you know, say for example in a country like India.

488
01:30:26.000 --> 01:30:40.000
There are major class and cast divides in terms of who really has access to what kind of you know, there are major class and cast divides in terms of who really has access to what kind of, you know, old age home, etc So factors that affect the availability of care in terms of family are also that you know today people are

489
01:30:40.000 --> 01:30:48.000
having fewer children in their increased levels of magical destruction. A lot of couples are sort of living together, increase levels of magical disruption.

490
01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:53.000
A lot of couples are sort of living together apart and immigration regimes the world over actually disrupting family life, right?

491
01:30:53.000 --> 01:31:00.000
So a lot of people, even when we have children, their children might be sort of in another country or in another state, etc.

492
01:31:00.000 --> 01:31:18.000
So they don't have the familiar support, that's at oftentimes needed or to attend to So for example in India, you know, going back to the point I made the Budge and the inequality and I look at it, we see that you know a lot of the a lot of the

493
01:31:18.000 --> 01:31:23.000
kerosene is actually communal and kin based, right? There is factory local residents, etc.

494
01:31:23.000 --> 01:31:33.000
So it's actually a zoom that buys daughters, daughter-in-law are going to be providing assistance to Ellos as part of traditional general division of labor.

495
01:31:33.000 --> 01:31:40.000
Right? So then caregiving for the elderly with the health condition is actually seen in extension of the existing role.

496
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:45.000
But, we don't know much about what's really happening is a lot of women are entering the labor market.

497
01:31:45.000 --> 01:31:57.000
Are they then being forced to give up paid work outside home because of the cultural expectation of looking after family Right.

498
01:31:57.000 --> 01:32:06.000
So then in that sense, we see that do the ships and family structure and household composition care for rural or does you know say in the case of India actually appears to be both centralized and diversified.

499
01:32:06.000 --> 01:32:12.000
Right? Within families.

500
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:19.000
Then that is also the aspect of social exclusion. And that I define his denial of resources, right?

501
01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:36.000
Good as as people age, etc. Right. In terms of civic exclusion, they oftentimes see that there are a lot of barriers to elderly people actually part in in public life etc and that results from a lack of involvement in decision making etc.

502
01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:44.000
Right? We rarely have a lot of these people actually involved in, you know, the policies that are going to shift that that is, right?

503
01:32:44.000 --> 01:32:53.000
So, Oh, a lot of, there's been a strong influence of early divorce on incomes in later life, etc, when we look at economic.

504
01:32:53.000 --> 01:33:02.000
Exclusion right so poor material condition often means that a lot of elderly have your levels of income, etc.

505
01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:22.000
They have difficulties financing basic expenditure. Say for example a homeless person or someone who has been working in a grocery store all their life in down like 2 or 3 jobs right so what really is retirement for them what release and look it for them and I think some of these fundamental questions have also not been sort of discussed in sociology and

506
01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:30.000
in gerontology because, you know, of what feminine scholars call has been in age's values.

507
01:33:30.000 --> 01:33:39.000
There's also an exclusion from social relations where oftentimes people are so disconnected from intimate relationships, social network support, etc.

508
01:33:39.000 --> 01:34:00.000
For example, you know, in the case of big, cities, etc. In India, we oftentimes see that if at all there are nursing rooms for well of people they are oftentimes located in such parts of the city that you know the elderly eventually like cut off from the rest of the world right so there is

509
01:34:00.000 --> 01:34:08.000
this spatial social isolation that a lot of them you know end up facing right in terms of you know that access to communication technology mobility etc.

510
01:34:08.000 --> 01:34:13.000
Disability is not something that is oftentimes, account for in a lot of our policies.

511
01:34:13.000 --> 01:34:25.000
So we don't see a lot of, you know, disabled friendly infrastructure and that actually it points to the lack of sensitivity we see towards all needs specific needs, right?

512
01:34:25.000 --> 01:34:46.000
A lot of Lily are actually not able to participate in local life etc. Especially in cases where their mobility is actually restricted and the relational and social aspects of place and amenities and built environment are not always really age friendly.

513
01:34:46.000 --> 01:34:58.000
So then even the opportunities to age in place are reduced. Right? For example, who really gets to age in place, someone who's been in home owner all their life or someone who does not stay in a poor neighborhood and doesn't sort of suffer from chronic diseases, mobility issues.

514
01:34:58.000 --> 01:35:11.000
You know, accelerated biological aging, etc, because of, say, racism, costume, etc. Right?

515
01:35:11.000 --> 01:35:23.000
So then access to and look at is essentially a question of, you know, one's ratio cost gender ethnic privilege.

516
01:35:23.000 --> 01:35:24.000
2 min says meet us.

517
01:35:24.000 --> 01:35:30.000
We also see that in sociology in our age as a construct. Okay, thank you. We also see in sociology that each is a construct occupies a very curious position.

518
01:35:30.000 --> 01:35:40.000
You know, it's been omnipresent but directly other developed. And this kind of aism is for visit in scholarship and in society notions of body even sexuality etc.

519
01:35:40.000 --> 01:35:50.000
You know and teaching constructs they display this lack of awareness in terms of what are the meaningful sex and sexuality for elderly people as especially women.

520
01:35:50.000 --> 01:36:01.000
There are all these neon Level moral imperatives to age well and successfully. So that and those ideas actually classify people into deserving and undeserving.

521
01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:05.000
And narratives of retirement oftentimes modules on middle class experience, right? And the absence of competitive analysis, say in terms of experiences of retirement for men and women.

522
01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:20.000
Actually means that we know very little in terms of, you know, care, deficit care.

523
01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:28.000
So what can be done ahead and you know this is something that I'm sort of still working on and this is like a work in progress.

524
01:36:28.000 --> 01:36:44.000
So I think, we really need to develop interventions and strategies that don't end up reinforcing gender rules in 10 but that actually encourage better and read, but that actually encourage better and reader redistribution of care tasks among more people, right?

525
01:36:44.000 --> 01:36:52.000
We also need to start sort of emphasizing and thinking of care tasks among more people, right? We also need to start sort of emphasizing and thinking of care not as a commodity distribution of care tasks among more people, right?

526
01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:59.000
We also need to start sort of emphasizing and thinking of care not as a commodity that's available. The moment there is and there is already a marketization of care, etc.

527
01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:15.000
And then it is actually an issue of inequ So we need to think of in terms of collectivization of care through collaboration between state institutions, market civil society and families and be able to build better complementary and beneficial relationships from all parties, right?

528
01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:28.000
We also need to see in terms of gender reform changes in the role of men in cash, right? So my great free trends have actually changed a lot of family structures and women have also had to migrate in search of paid work.

529
01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:34.000
And so has men had to take care of children and divided family members, right? But still the changes are, you know, very inadequate and small, right?

530
01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:47.000
So we need to also maybe rethink and reconsider you know what are called in feminist scholars or traditional roles or women in care.

531
01:37:47.000 --> 01:37:55.000
All this, you know, endowly care prices also affects men, right? Especially in cases when women in the family are not present or available, right?

532
01:37:55.000 --> 01:38:11.000
Also in cases when men end up becoming spousal cables, etc. So we need to think about breaking gender stereotypes and all these relate to you know larger structural change.

533
01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:30.000
And from this new trend we need to maybe rethink and think of new ways, of, you know, what are elderly masculinities, etcetera, which are maybe going to help us rethink better and newer family rules and gender identities, etc, and you know think of what kind of change

534
01:38:30.000 --> 01:38:43.000
we need in society. So and with that I'm going to end thank you very much. I'm looking forward to questions and comments.

535
01:38:43.000 --> 01:38:50.000
Thank you very much for another really interesting presentation. Before I move on to questions, I've assumed.

536
01:38:50.000 --> 01:39:08.000
Before I move on to questions, I've assumed that. Before I move on to questions, I've assumed that our final speaker, I've assumed that our final speaker is not here and that our final speaker is not here and that our final speaker is not here and that our final speaker is not here and that our final speaker is not here and that this is our last paper but I better just check in case there's another scholar online

537
01:39:08.000 --> 01:39:13.000
who is not here and that this is our last paper but I'd better just check in case there's another scholar online who's who The fact that this is our last speaker online there.

538
01:39:13.000 --> 01:39:23.000
Excellent. OK, lovely. So do we have any questions for our last speaker? Yes, please come and speak into the microphone.

539
01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:27.000
Thank you.

540
01:39:27.000 --> 01:39:35.000
Hello Asmitha, very interesting presentation. Can you hear me?

541
01:39:35.000 --> 01:39:36.000
Yeah.

542
01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:43.000
Can you hear me, Very interesting presentation. I just want to draw your attention to a couple of things.

543
01:39:43.000 --> 01:39:56.000
Connecting back to mine and Iious people that how inheritance property affects all day care that question is very much in April.

544
01:39:56.000 --> 01:40:10.000
So I would suggest that you look at class more carefully along with gender. So therefore to assume that, men are kind of better cared for.

545
01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:19.000
In general. That is one of the impression we got. Maybe we need to fine tune it a little more.

546
01:40:19.000 --> 01:40:25.000
And if you look at like in Evan and Iyota, so there was a full-fledged, old age home for women.

547
01:40:25.000 --> 01:40:32.000
And as you know that in India there is a kind of welfare tradition in civil society to have homes for widows.

548
01:40:32.000 --> 01:40:40.000
So that women and you know there it's a it's very But in a realistic but still exist.

549
01:40:40.000 --> 01:40:52.000
And if you look at the kind of, instances I don't have you know a lot of evidence but if you look at instances of violence against the LD there is more against men.

550
01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:59.000
Because they have been the authority figure. And mothers have been also, under the authority and the violence of the father.

551
01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:24.000
So very often the children might support the elderly mother. So it doesn't really work out that the vulnerability of so age and gender when you kind of kind of superimpose them into Indian context you have more nuanced picture So as you go along I would like you to pay attention to that along with inheritance and class.

552
01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:28.000
Thank you.

553
01:41:28.000 --> 01:41:29.000
Yes, please.

554
01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:45.000
Can I respond? Yeah, thank you, Dr. Shapiro Berti. I really appreciate that nuance and or that insight and like you very well articulated your right actually you know the intersection of class and gender further sort of.

555
01:41:45.000 --> 01:41:57.000
Complicates the picture that we have in hand. And, I think this is definitely something that, you know, I'm going to keep in mind and include as I.

556
01:41:57.000 --> 01:42:01.000
Build my research. So thank you a lot.

557
01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:07.000
Any other questions?

558
01:42:07.000 --> 01:42:19.000
I have a question and it's a hard question. I know but you know you mentioned the need to involve men more.

559
01:42:19.000 --> 01:42:36.000
In care. And I'm just really interested to hear your reflections on You know, the policy levers that we have, I guess, at our disposal to encourage or compel more men to be involved in care.

560
01:42:36.000 --> 01:42:54.000
I mean the obvious one is farther quotas on parental leaves but we see in countries with father quotas that can create new gender inequalities, for example, more women are taking unpaid parental leave in those countries with a father quota in their parental leave.

561
01:42:54.000 --> 01:43:00.000
So I know it's a huge question, but do you have any thoughts on how do we get more men involved in?

562
01:43:00.000 --> 01:43:04.000
The provision of unpaid care.

563
01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:18.000
Thank you Dr. Hamilton. I really appreciate that question and yeah I think it's definitely part of a large structural change that we need to see in society and I don't see just policies as being the way out, right?

564
01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:29.000
Because along with policies we also need to change in gender norms. You know, even if we have policies where, there is, Leave, etc.

565
01:43:29.000 --> 01:43:36.000
Sanctioned for young fathers. But what happens once their children are not in that age, right?

566
01:43:36.000 --> 01:43:53.000
What really happens when see their children are in middle school, etc. Who then is also doing the care work, etc, or who is expected to look after, you know, and lowly people in the family or who is facing that gender wage gap in the market, right?

567
01:43:53.000 --> 01:44:07.000
So I think some of those questions won't only be answered by social policy along with policies we also need to see large and structural change, you know, or change in attitudes as well, right?

568
01:44:07.000 --> 01:44:25.000
A change in gender loans as well. And I think we, the way we see with a lot of things in society that, you know, oftentimes, we might have a lot of policies in place, but there might still be a lot of loopholes because of which policies may not be able to sort of.

569
01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:33.000
you know, run very effectively, right? So I definitely see a change in gender norms, etc.

570
01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:50.000
Change in family forms etc. Being the way out also to ensure that you know policies are sort of better implemented and people get the kind of, you know, care support that they need.

571
01:44:50.000 --> 01:44:56.000
Thank you. Are there any final questions?

572
01:44:56.000 --> 01:45:04.000
With anybody else. Has any questions that emerge after the session. I hope our speakers won't mind if the questions are emailed to you to continue the dialogue after today's session.

573
01:45:04.000 --> 01:45:13.000
I'd like you all to join me in thanking all of our fabulous speakers today. It's been a really stimulating, interesting session which I have enjoyed very much.

574
01:45:13.000 --> 01:45:25.000
I encourage you all to go and look at the distributed papers we have associated with this session and look forward to seeing you again in other sessions throughout the conference.

575
01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:34.000
Thank you very much.