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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR:  Hello, good, morning,

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: yeah, I will share my screen, just 1,Â s.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: here. can you say it. Okay.

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Nadia Asheulova: we can thank you.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Okay, so

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: well, thank you very much. Thank you all for being here in this session.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: I'm Samuel Levy

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: from a University of Campinas in the State of San Paulo, Brazil.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and I'm talking from the city of Sao Paulo, and it is my very first time attending Asi commerce. I'm very happy for this opportunity

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: to discuss our research with you and look forward to hearing your comments.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: I will share with you a paper called The The Diffusion of Certifications and Gender Equality Plans in science, activism, and institutional change that is being written together with an Umadio made.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: This paper presents partial results of a larger research that I'm developing for my Phd.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: In which we seek to understand the role of activism and expertise in institutional change towards gender equality in science.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Well, Since our session is about bringing intersectionality to science, we will focus on a specific aspect of the global diffusion of certification and gender equality plans.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: That is its recent turn towards an intersectional approach.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: or, more precisely, the replacement of gender as the central category of such certifications and plans

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: for a more Nance view of equality that takes into consideration other dimensions besides gender, such as race ethnicity, age, socioeconomic condition, among others, often treated as an equality, diversity and inclusion approach.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: So we start from this general understanding that advancing the career of women researchers has become an increasingly important issue in science.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: That is what is new is the emphasis on structural change

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: which seems to mean changes in the belief systems that guide, how universities deal with career support and the advancement of women in science.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: The certification and award schemes and gender equality plan are devices that have been increasingly used to guide and achieve these changes in universities.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: In this context, we've seen that the quality, diversity, and inclusion vocabulary has been replacing the gender one in recent years.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: So if

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: how has this change materialized in certification and award schemes and gender equality plans?

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: How is gender being considered in these new formulations?

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: These are some of the questions the questions that this paper tries to answer by analyzing certification and award schemes as well as equality plans being developed and disseminated in different parts of the world.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: So what exactly are certification and award schemes and gender equality plans? As I've just said, these are devices that have become widely adopted to guide gender equality work in higher education institutions.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: As the schemes generally operate at a national level, there is a wide variety of formats today, we will focus on a specific award called the Innocence Charter.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: The schemes generally work by addition, requiring higher education institutions to become members at varying costs.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: It's basically expressing the institution

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: interest in carrying out the procedures necessary to obtain the certifications or awards.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: The main process consists of a self-assessment guided by protocols and standardized procedures

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: from which targets are defined. The objectives includes the intensive production of data and analysis to support the construction of indicators for subsequent evaluations.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: There is also a commitment to promote changes in organizational culture pressed in arms and protocols to promote equality.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Gender equality plans also vary significantly.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and the research context, a specific model has been endorsed recently by the European Commission through the horizon. Europe funding initiative.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: orientation.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: training and many resources have been developed by the European Institute for Gender equality for dissemination purposes. gender equality plans are operational tools that concretely define goals, strategic actions, implementation, chronograms, and metrics to measure. If the goals were achieved.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: despite obeying a fixed format.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: They are supposed to be customized for each institution. Taking into account national and regional laws and guidelines, as well as local specificities.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: they will varied, very deepening, depending on context and on the process by which they have been produced, as some may be the result of mandatory regulations in the country or region or of collective agreements achieve

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: achieved in each organization

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: the eligibility criteria put forward by the horizon. Europe funding scheme in 2,022 was a turning point for European universities.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Our research shows that gender equality plans have recently spread across the continent, irrespective of university tradition ties or field of knowledge.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: although they differ in terms of who is in charge of assessing the University's journey towards the stated goals. An external body in the case of certification and award schemes

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and the university itself. In the case of gender equality plans.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: they are pretty similar in their prescriptions and recommendations. Both the men from the University's and accurate analysis of equality issues in all careers, the identification of the obstacles faced by certain groups to advance

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: the definition of goals to be achieved in a stated period of time to overcome the perceived unequal situation.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and finally metrics, so that if and how these goals have been achieved.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: so, getting deeper into the theme. I will talk a little more about the Tennessee Charter as a good model to help us understand this process of dissemination

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: of a scheme and its transformation towards intersectionality.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and was created in the United Kingdom in 2,005, aiming to offer universities of certification in the form of labels indicating different levels of compliance with the standards defined by the charter.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: The main goal was to encourage and recognize the commitment to advancing the careers of women academics in stem science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and medicine.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and the institution that wants to join the charter will be subject to periodic evaluations which can lead to a certificate in the bronze. Silver argued categories.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Nowadays more than 1,000 certifications have been awarded in total.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: of which 124 are held by universities and Research Institutes. and 878 by university departments in the yeah. Uk.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: now, I want to address what we are calling the shift towards Edi.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Although our research showed that there are different examples to describe it here, I will focus on the process of a tennis, one charter becoming intersectional.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: So, after facing various types of criticism and evaluation of its outcomes, advantage G. The organization that holds the Charter.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: commissioned an independent review of Latinos, one in 2,018. One of the key points highlighted by the review was the suggestion that the charter should include the broader definition of gender

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: no more just the binary comprehension of women and men.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Another important point seems to be the development of the so-called international charters.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: the division of Athena. One resulted in adapted schemes in Ireland and Australia in 2,015,

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: one in the United States of America, in 2,016, and one in Canada in 2,018

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: by studying their documents and the material available on their websites. We understood that the change in dimensions

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: do not focus exclusively on gender, but on many minority and disadvantages groups in their societies.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: In addition, they both embrace the idea of intersectionality which Athena Swan only adopted in the most recent version of the transformed Uk.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: launched in 2,021. After the independent review.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Equality, diversity, and inclusion also become

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: keywords for organizing work and developing policies aimed at changing institutions.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: They are, however, sufficiently broad to allow specific programs to develop tailor-made metrics and measures to address the specific challenges they face.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: What the research indicates is that during the process of dissemination, of certification, schemes, and gender and policy plans.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: the wide debate also has changed, and addressing just gender equality, Have become too little

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: by comparing goals, gender definition, and target population from every Athena one version and adopted charters in other countries. We suggest that the discussion on inequalities has reached a point at which it seems necessary to adopt an intersectional approach.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: The atinos. One focus has shift from the underrepresentation of women in specific fields to a much broader approach to inequalities.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: It moves from a binary perspective to a wider vision that includes all gender identities.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Despite the persistence of vertical and horizontal gender segregation in higher education and science. The program now addresses race ethnicity, faith, sexual orientation, and other dimensions of social discrimination.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: dealing with specific questions from their own societies. The Canadian system, for example, includes indigenous people, and that from the United States includes socio-economic status, age, and family history of higher education as factors that may be targets of bias and inequality.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: It is indeed a very far-reaching change in the way the schemes organize and prescribe their values.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: It leads to the question. how do the changes the Bove affect the prescriptions or strategies of the institutions that join it?

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: We still need to get more data in order to answer this question. But for now we can point out the fact that most universities have edi working groups and are trying to mainstream inclusivity.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: By analyzing one action plan. From Cambridge University, for example, we understood that it is aligned with other strategic policies and initiatives aiming to embed inclusivity in the way the university operates.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Their documents and websites show not just the gender equality focus, but also race and other relevant aspects

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: of inequality for its community.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: For concluding remarks, then I reinforce how obituous certification and award schemes and gender equality plans have become around the world and are shaking the gender equality policy agenda.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: We understand that these are not new developments, but the result of sustaining gender equality work that goes back to the 90 s. When a focus on genderment, streaming and structural change seems to have appeared.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Given this long-term commitment to gender equality. We seek to understand the meaning and implications of the recent focus on equality, diversity, and inclusion.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: We show that the shift is far-reaching, and goes deep into the definition of what equality work should be and aim to achieve

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: as a final observation for closing this presentation, I would like to note that this research is still in progress.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: We will be collecting more data about how institutions are embedding Udi and interviewing stakeholders in the next few months.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and that's it. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask and comment on any points of the presentation, and thank you very much.

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Thank you very much. We'll leave the questions to the end so that everyone can present. I'd like to call

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Lisa to start her presentation. Please

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: thank you

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: just a moment. I will share my screen.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Good morning, everybody from Helsingi. It's nearly 20'clock in the night here, and I'm happy to present to you a paper joint paper by

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: me and Helen Peterson and Helen, Chief pinker and Angelica sour from Erbro University on your own research. And we are looking at research funding organizations as change agents for equality, diversity, and inclusion from European perspectives

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and research funding. we're such funding organizations,

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: are key stakeholders in knowledge production and have increasing relevance for development of research carriers

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: nationally and internationally, and

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: nearly 10 years ago there was a a large report by the On, ordered by the EU on tender challenge in research funding. I was the rapporteur of that report, and it was an overview of how national research funding organizations engaged with gender equality in over 30 European countries

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and the key conclusions. Where that there's a lot. There was a large variation in Europe in how Rfos were engaged in gender equality and the countries range from proactive to politely put relatively inactive approaches to this issue.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: What I'm going to focus today is preliminary results of an EU project horizon 2,020 Project Court granted grant allocation disparities from a tender perspective with 5 countries involved, Austria, Sweden, Germany, Spain, and Netherlands, and led by your own research, Austria

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: with aim to explore whether there is gender bias in the allocation of research grants and its courses, and

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: with aim also to develop recommendations for a more tender fair research funding system. And we are addressing in the project the whole funding cycle, looking at career positions, application, behavior, application, assessment, carrier impact of external grants

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and using interdisciplinary multiple method approach both qualitative and quantitative data collection policy analyzes interviews, linguistic analyzes, applicant survey and past performance analyzes and applying a multi-level model. But I'm not focusing. I'm not talking about this overall project, but one part

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: of it, which is case studies in 5 research funding organizations in Europe, in Austria, Ireland, Poland, Slovakia, and Sweden.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and the funding organizations we have been looking at are the Austrian Science Fund, the Science Foundation, Ireland National Science Center in Poland, Slovakian Research and Developmental Agency and Swedish Research Council.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: This 5 research funding organizations include gender equality pioneers, but also newcomers. They include northern, western, and Eastern European countries. We try to get the Southern European country, but failed for that into our sample one.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: And we have analyzing. We have been analyzing their gender equality policies and general assessment policies and gender bias, risk evaluation procedures and practices in panels. So we interviews with panelists and chairs and panel observations. In some of these funding funders, application behavior through survey.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: And there's also been a co-creation aspect here. The Rfos have been co-creators of find findings in through the Stakeholder Committee within the project.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: when it comes to contextual factors for the gender equality policy. We looked at National Research Funding regimes. We looked also at national gender equality regimes.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: How gender is integrated in national research policy, and what kind of gender relations could be found in research in the country.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and when it comes to 10 day quality policy analyzes. We looked at the national framework, timeline and development of the gender equality policy, framing of that policy, overall goals and aims of the policy, topics and issues addressed, Mrs. Adopted and other potentially relevant aspects which are seemingly not gender related like conflict of interest procedures, and trans degree of transparency

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and main results concerning contextual factors are that there are variations in the 5 national gender regimes in the history and timeline of attending quality, policy, and legislation overall society of gender equality attitudes to an acceptance of gender equality in general. In the society, also variations in the research funding landscapes, in research, intensity

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Mit, Ctl and research policy frameworks, integrating gender in research policy and gender relations in research, but strikingly there were similarities in the funding landscapes when it comes to grade a positions. In all 5 funding landscape we found low proportion of women, full professors, strong domination of men in the Professor at one.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and there were 2 distinguishable national funding and gender equality regimes. Among these 5 Austria Island and Sweden are all ranked high on the indicators of research, intensity, and gender. Equality in society.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and especially Austria and Sweden, have long term comprehensive gender equality. Commitment in Ireland. This is more recent, but there has been very rapid progress in gender equality, policy, development 150,

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and these 3 contexts we could characterize that they enhance, inspire, and enable ambitious gender equality, policy, development in research funding organizations and research performing organizations. And there is a political will in all these 3 governmental demands and accountability demanded by the national governments.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: The other group includes Poland, the Slovak Republic, which are less research-intensive environments, are ranked somewhat lower on overall societal tending equality by all kind of rank, ranking indexes, and their tender equality. Legislation is less proactively developed

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: when it comes to gender equality policy analyzes.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: We found also 2 distinguishable groups with different gender. Equality policy approaches the Austrian Iris and Swedish funders.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: where, applying a proactive approach

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: to 10 day quality addressing most gender bias risks. We were kind of identifying. They are receiving and reforming their funding review process constantly.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: There are formal policies and gender balance in funding assessment panels. The intervention logic is based on gender mainstreaming as overall approach.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and they apply so called long list and road palette of gender equality, topics, tools, and measures too long list to kind of present here in detail. They can be found in our our different deliverables if you are interested, and there is internal accountability, evaluation, and monitoring systems in place for gender equality

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: mit Ctl, and and the frame they apply can be characterized that they look at science as gender practice, including tender dimension in research content. So 150

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: fixing women organization and knowledge to kind of refer to this London shipping as division of gender equality work, and they were national, regional, and EU collaboration with other funding agencies on gender equality.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: The other group includes the Polish Ncn. And Slovakian Srda, and we could characterize them as emerging approaches. They had we collected the policy data. Excuse me, I have to have some

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: water.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Yeah. we collected the policy data in 2,019. And then we didn't identify any formal gender equality policies in either of these organizations, no strategies, no gender equality plans established.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and the intervention logic was family-focused approach to gender policies focusing on motherhood parenthood parental leave if they existed, and the frame one.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: it could be

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: characterized helping and encouraging women fixing women. There were only a few topics and measures could be identified, but during the project Runtime the project has been running since 2,019, and finishing this year. During the project Runtime, there were interesting emerging actions in Polish, Ncn.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: They started to gather more sex. This aggregated statistics did quite extensive national gender equality and research survey in 2022 and adopted their first gender Equality plan in 22 as well.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: And there there were several informal practices which were not written as any policy in both of them, and awareness and interest in international collaborations and actions was evidenced also that they agreed to participate in this EU project.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: What we found that understanding. Gender in these policies was applying mainly binary terms. Women and men also in terms of data collection. Men and masculinities were rarely addressed as gendered, and motherhood and parenting appear to be foregrounded when addressing gender.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and there was also an interesting implementation

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: tension between gender neutrality on the one hand, and tend to sensitivity. On the other hand, it's a little bit complex issue, which I cannot go into detail here, but more more on it. In the written paper.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: We found also intersectional aspects, rarely or only shortly, addressed in policy documents or in interviews with panelists. early career and gender to some extent. But it was quite.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: It was quite interesting

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: erez agmoni. Interesting regarding what the previous present presentation indicated, that intersectionality has heavily arrived into this era. But in our results. This was definitely not the case. And 10 to dimension in research is a new policy aspect, advocated also by the European Commission, but it appears quite challenging to implement. I cannot go into detail on that, either here. 150

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: but if you look at. are these Rfos change agents for gender equality and diversity.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: yes and no. There are research, intensive national context and overall societal emphasis on gender equality which we identified as important drivers for that Rfos engaged with gender equality

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and the EU gender and science policy was definitely an important driver towards national Rfos and Rpos, and already mentioned by the previous presenter, the horizon. Europe demands

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: of gender equality plan as an eligibility criteria for application that definitely has been pushing Polish. nc, in to adopt the Gender Equality plan. Actually, it is mentioned very explicitly in the on the first page of the Attendee Equality Plan. This EU demand

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: in the other countries, especially Sweden and Austria, and the equality plans have been there for decades already. So the EU driving is not so much concerning them.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Rfos are also key stakeholders in national research and information to push gender equality and national R&amp;D. Agenda

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and Rfos

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: can be characterized as learning organizations, developing their awareness and understanding of gender equality, implementing strategies, measures, and through looking them through evaluation. Their success success of these.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and they also engaged in a diverse knowledge, production, and gender equality and examples of these are many. For example, Swedish Research Council has done extensive gender equality, observation studies in research, assessment panels. The Austrian Fwf. Has done extensive analyzes of funding outcomes and the Polish survey on gender equality and research. I already mentioned, 150.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: There's also interesting. there are also interesting drivers, cross nationally, collaboration and mutual learning between funding organizations and gender equality. They can be global, European, regional or national Global Research Council, European Research Era, German speaking Rfo network du

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: network, Swedish National funders, networks. And so on. And one example of these cross national collaborations is the European gender net plus consortium, which consists of 16 funding agencies from

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: you and Canada, and their aim is to strengthen transnational collaborations between research program owners and managers, and they also co-fund research projects which have gender aspects. They also provide support to the promotion of gender equality to institutional chains and inst. To get the integration of sex gender analyzes in research and funding programs. The website is there, and they have also done several several

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: reports related to this issue and and start a joint studies.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: So challenges, what are the challenges Identified in our look at these 5 funding agencies They were very long tradition of working on 10 day, while the promotion in 2 countries, Austria and Sweden and traditionally very predominant policy focus on gender.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: In this kind of context there was, we identified tension between the

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: gender sensitivity on the one hand and gender neutrality in implementation of these advanced policies

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: in Ireland there was a recent rapid advancement of gender equality, promotion from very much lower base than Austrian, Sweden.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and in the post-socialist countries Poland and Slovak Republic the approach to gender equality.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: what's like in the emerging. And there is this post Socialist past which definitely can be seen to have an impact on this

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: sort of what would be characterized as a little bit reluctance to address the issue.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and the binary approach to gender was indeed. one could say, predominant in these policies. Still

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: understanding gender dimension in research content. It was quite challenging how to implement that in the panels, and how to evaluate how the research funding organization should evaluate this.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: how it's so successful it could be implemented.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: And we found also, interestingly, like, maybe contradictingly to the previous presentation, that intersectional approach to gender equality. We're only emerging. They were there, but they were like 300.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: rather.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: yeah, I would say politely emerging, yet not not fully developed.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: and the diversity and inclusion are not yet strongly included as policy focus in our sample. So these kind of challenges could be identified. Looking at this 5 European but different funding regimes and funding organizations.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: And you can find more information on granted on the website. And our final conference is coming up in October in Vienna. And yeah, welcome to register when the registering soon opens. And I and we are happy to answer any questions

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: when we have discussion time.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Thank you for you.

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Thank you so much, Lisa. I'm just going to set this up so that we can share our screen.

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 hide that video panel and

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thank you.

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Okay, good morning. Welcome. And it's a pleasure to be here to present some results of the European project named the I seed

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this idea of an inclusive science through public participation, and I can say.

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a large project at 3 years project. I'm going to propose some results coming from a part of this project regarding research, and a kind of a panel of interviews on public participation.

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So

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the the main questions of our work. But what in Europe and in comparative, the perspective among you countries, the state of the art relating to the participative tools and methods.

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not only for engagement, but but also to deliberate, to propose some ways in which people do not only have the essay, but can influence the the seasonal process

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regarding science and technology issues

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and a kind of future scenarios in the field.

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We use the 2 methods to research activities, a mapping of participative tools. There are many in Europe, but of course, all over the world.

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and a group of interview with experts. Semi-structured interviews experts as academics and practitioners, as you probably know that quite different. But in the field of participation, especially in Europe, there are both.

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and sometimes also scholars are practitioners, so they they study, they do lizards, but also practice these kind of participative processes.

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Talking about the the mapping, we decide the some categorization criteria.

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 The aim which kind of aim at can have these different tools.

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for example, could be informing or consulting

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or deliberating 3 different levels.

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It's clear that, of course, from one side there is a top-down process. It's not a two-way the second, it's a much more engaging process, and the third one in debating to find the proposed or solution. So the idea that

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you can have a say as a citizens and try to have the opportunity to influence a decision.

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Different participants. As you can understand that we are different stakeholders, citizens, experts, professionals, policymakers.

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different ways, different moments to participate at this kind of process.

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and the the role of citizens, and so we decided to divide in the 2 axes. The vertical axis is a passive or active role.

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and the horizontal is for informing or deliberating.

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in which we think that, of course, deliberate. It's much powerful

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position in which you can have the say that you can influence the decision.

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There are many, of course. Probably you can, you know some of them. So, starting from the basic informing as a science week is dialogue to a forum much more intensive and much more powerful as a deliberative online forum or belfry method, I can say open space technology

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where the power of citizen is much more heavy.

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So. and talking about the the second. we can say we had these 50 interviews with the academic and the practitioners from different parts of Europe.

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As you know, Europe. It's a very huge continent, with different democratic traditions. So we decided to wear the interviews in the northeast and east, the South and West.

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This is a sort of

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 central, and we try also to have a sort of balance between gender and the the academics and the protection, and, as I mentioned before.

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Oh, something about our results. first of all, we found that in especially in the W, that a key point is that the idea of a democratic space. So which kind of democratic space

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do we have in our country, for example?

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Considering context elements such as a geopolitical, cultural, historic background. You can understand, for example, that in ex-soviet Union countries there is a a kind of a idea of a democracy very different. If you compare to the South Europe or Northern Europe.

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And so, for example, this quote regarding Italy, if you talk with people, I think, especially in a county like Italy.

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where people tend to discuss it. To you you know the place that the main mainly represents the local dimension of the citizens is the square is the.

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And so I think that the need of people is very strong. So that is quite different in other countries in which the idea to to ever say to participate is not so common, especially if you are not familiar with for many, many years.

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So this first layer as a democratic space. a second one very important coming from from the result is this idea of power asymmetries.

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as you know. Having different stakeholders, different actors. these different actors play different roles

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and have a different weight.

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For example, if you join together a scientist as a citizens, when a scientists speak as, of course a reputation, a power that is very higher than the citizens. So.

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in fact, many participative tools try to

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to differentiate the way in which it possible to rejoin this

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trying to balance these power symmetries. which is

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also the phase of the process, because one idea is to

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to propose a participative process. Since the beginning, for example, when there is the topic frame.

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or at the end.

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or all over the classes.

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And so the management of the decision making and the management of results is a key point. and we found that these different power symmetries

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I count a lot in this kind of situation different situations.

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Another point is the participation parts.

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And again, which kind of a symmetry we can have. For example, it's a top-down approach, for example, an institution. Try to involve people proposing some assemblies.

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or it is a reverse, a bottom up, coming from idea, from citizens, from the civil society. It's completely different, of course.

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And so we found in our research, in our interviews that many scholars and protection emphasize this kind of layer.

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and also again, the the different role of a consultative or deliberative process.

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From one side. You can, as, for example, a mayor

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to join together to organize and assembly, try to inform. It's quite different that, for example, organize it and listen to the question coming from the citizens. It's completely a reverse process. It it's it's different

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from a power of symmetries and also for the participation paths.

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these are the other quotes. But it's not so so relevant. There is another important thing given that we are leaving it in this own life period in which we, we are both offline. We have online, as many scholars are

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saying, especially during the pandemic. We had this big experience to to live in a hybrid situation in this session.

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And so the technology helps in terms of organizing online parts of the citizens as angry. For example, citizen Assembly is one

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tool that is especially used, for example, in Ireland or in Denmark, as a tool to join together people trying to discuss the time to propose and have a say in the public process of decision.

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like the communication tools and also the tools for voting, you can do the hybrid model you can combine in person meeting with online meetings. I think it's very good.

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This is one quarter to say that probably

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in some cases could be okay to have an hybrid solution.

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But it depends by the issue. We depend by the kind of stakeholders involved. And so

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and the

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some sacred factors access.

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and

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one from one side is this idea of a policy system and transparency. The more transparency

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in in the, in the words of scholars and protection, and we interview, the more successful would be the process.

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Another important thing is that the the level of trust and listening, the openness and dialogue, the, and not an artificial idea that is possible to to make. Something symbolic, so joined to other people. But there is a sort of a hidden agenda in which they have Yet decided the the direction. So this is typically, and so you can understand which kind of frustration for the public, for example, can raise.

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 Another, a key point is that

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funds matter, money matter. It's not so easy to organize a good public participation process.

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And again, another key point is that there is also the topic topic matter is different. If you talk about the vaccination, for example, or if if you talk about a local problem, so if you wanted to realize a new plant in a, in a, in a neighborhood it's quite different that a moral, a big issues regarding, for example, medicine, and so on.

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And so more or less decided the conclusion.

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In Europe. We have, of course, a very different situation here. It is possible to look at the full involvement of citizens in participatory and deliberative practice is

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higher than in in northern countries. unless in Central East the country is because of the different tradition, democratic tradition.

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and also in a more or less

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a similar situation we have in the south of Europe.

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and something about the second research question, which kind of scenarios? Probably it's possible to improve this kind of participating processes

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if the contest and the power relationship are very clear.

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and if there is a a transparent process.

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probably starting since the beginning, from the the questions coming from the public the way

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there is also another important thing regarding skills and knowledge. Who is, for example, the facilitator of this kind of processes.

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 is the facilitator neutral or not? This is another

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hot point, and

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again, the topic and the aim are very important.

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We found, finally, that in general a scholar said that usually this kind of participative process are

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organised by the institutions, so there are less processes coming in a bottom up approach. This is a typically usually given that they they need money.

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organization, moderators, professional. And so it's not so easy to find this kind of processes coming from a bottom up and from grassroots organization

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more or less. This is my.

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thank you.

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Anna Ransiek: Thank you very much. And now, when you're ready, could you please start your presentation?

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Anna Ransiek: Yeah.

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Anna Ransiek: okay. My name is Ana Hansik, and I'm here from Berlin, and I'm working as a sociologist in mathematics.

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Anna Ransiek: and I am here on behalf of the working group. Gender and mathematics needed by Anina Michel.

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Anna Ransiek: And today's presentation is titled, being one or being a mathematician self perceptions of female Phd students and postdocs in an excellent mathematical research environment.

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Anna Ransiek: Today's results are part of a bigger project which aims to identify the social processes and mechanisms that reproduce still existing gender disparities and mathematics.

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Anna Ransiek: and in career paths, especially in a mathematical cluster of excellence.

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Anna Ransiek: Besides other aspects, we take a deeper look at the influence and role of equal opportunity and the specific cultures of the cluster as an excellent research environment. To overcome such disparities.

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Anna Ransiek: the phenomenon is approached from a social, constructivist and interactional perspective completed by field theoretical considerations.

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Anna Ransiek: and the focus is therefore, in the interpretations of the subjects by means of interviews on the context, the discourse of conditions of the scientific fields, and on the interrelations between all of them.

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Anna Ransiek: During our still ongoing analyses, we found a dismissive attitude towards equal opportunity on site of female Ph. D. Students and postdocs in that cluster

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Anna Ransiek: which is not a new phenomenon. But today I'd like to look at it in greater depths. Also in connection with the field. These female mathematicians act with them.

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Anna Ransiek: So the focus today is on subject positions of female Phds and Postdocs, and on the questions.

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Anna Ransiek: how are they perceived in the mathematical fields, especially in that specific cluster of excellent and in patterns of interpretation about equal opportunity. And how do they perceive themselves?

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Anna Ransiek: The results I like to present

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Anna Ransiek: are based on semi-structured interviews with 7 female Phd. Students and postdocs from academic and non academic background backgrounds and also national international students and postdocs.

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they are part of in total 21 interviews with so-called early and later stage researchers we conducted in the cluster context.

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Anna Ransiek: In the interviews we asked about the Korea biography, subject culture, for example, what they think about mathematics.

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Anna Ransiek: and we also ask about barriers and opportunities for a career in science.

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Anna Ransiek: Moreover, we ask about gender-specific aspects, such as the relevancy of equality policy, or the relevancy of being a woman, or assumed differences between men and women in automatic blocks.

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Anna Ransiek: For the purpose of this presentation we also integrated the results from interviews with 44 scientists and leadership positions in the cluster.

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We conducted those originally for a different focus of our project, but with slightly similar interview topics.

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Anna Ransiek: we also use data from the cluster home page.

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Anna Ransiek: and we use both to characterize the external perceptions in the field. These female mathematicians have to deal with when they actualize their mathematical self-image.

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Anna Ransiek: All interview material was coded using qualitative analyzes. And Max Kudia and additional material was analyzed in a global way.

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Anna Ransiek: So in the following, I will first give you a glimpse on the self image of the discipline and the cluster.

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Anna Ransiek: Then I will introduce a perspective of scientists, leadership positions. We understand them also as gatekeepers on equal opportunity

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as well as on male and female mathematicians. After that I will shed light on the perspective of these female mathematicians on themselves and mathematics.

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Anna Ransiek: So what are the specifics of the environment we are looking at?

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Anna Ransiek: For a long time there was not much sociological research on mathematics, and that says a lot about mathematics, success.

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Anna Ransiek: because it is still a field which is seen and sees itself as objective, neutral, and free from the influence of social processes and interacting subjects.

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Anna Ransiek: scholars who conduct gender research and a discipline as well as actors. We met from the field of equal opportunity. state that, due to this image, it is still difficult to introduce gender issues into mathematics.

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Anna Ransiek: Keeping this in mind, the cluster we are looking at takes these issues serious.

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Anna Ransiek: It is funded by the Dfg. Which is one of the biggest funding foundations for research in Germany.

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Anna Ransiek: The foundation has made the integration of equal opportunity a funding requirement.

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Anna Ransiek: Therefore, besides applied research and career development, equal opportunity has been made an important cornerstone of the cluster.

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Anna Ransiek: Here it is a declared goal to increase the proportion and improve the situation of female mathematicians.

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Anna Ransiek: For this purpose the cluster has launched numerous equality measures.

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Anna Ransiek: For example, there is an obligation to consider equality criteria in the selection process for research projects which and I think this might be specific also for other Dfg excellent strategy. cluster. It is funded internally by cluster money.

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Anna Ransiek: and there are also different other measures to promote female career paths, for example, financial support, networking advance, or, for example, also our project as part of this equal opportunity and equal opportunity measures.

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Anna Ransiek: So we have a centralized institutionalized requirements for equal opportunity and also an incentive to implement it because funding money is attached to it.

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Anna Ransiek: When we look on the active side in the field, especially on the scientists, the idiot. all these gatekeepers state. In the interviews that equality is important.

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Anna Ransiek: They also express a high willingness to theoretically increase the proportion of women, so on the surface everyone is very fond of equality. However, if we look into the statements towards the implementation of equal opportunity measures, we found 5 different patterns, and you see them on the left.

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Anna Ransiek: So I cannot discuss these patterns in greater detail here. What is important for the purpose to day is that, independently of whether they are in favor of equal opportunity, or whether they are not

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Anna Ransiek: within all patterns of interpretation in the context of equal opportunity. Female mathematicians are positioned and marked out as women, and not seen as mathematicians

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Anna Ransiek: to characterize the field. We also focused on implicit

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Anna Ransiek: or and and explicit assumptions about male and female Phds and postdocs on site of the gatekeepers.

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Anna Ransiek: Here we found a persistence of gendered attributions that implicitly qualified women less for a scientific career implied in the image of the potentially successful scientist or mathematician. We reconstructed from the interviews with these gatekeepers

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Anna Ransiek: so independently of their own gender. They recall an ideal scientific personality when they talk, when they talk about what it needs to become successful.

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Anna Ransiek: This potentially successful scientist has, besides mathematical skills, for example, a risk taking personality or a high inner motivation to pursue this career in complete self-sacrifice and with life circumstances free from barriers.

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even though none of the scientists in leadership positions doubt female scientists and their skills and possibilities to reach a professorship directly.

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Anna Ransiek: We found that those characteristics or preconditions about what is pretend About, who is potentially successful in the scientific system are connected to men. This becomes evident when we compare the image with the attributions they have about female and male Phd. Students and postdocs.

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Anna Ransiek: And here I'll give you. I will give you one example when you compare the attributions about males and females concerning risk taking or their motivation. It is the personality, traits, and ascribe motivation of men that can be connected with this image, whereas association on women's personality traits, motivation.

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Anna Ransiek: and, as we also found out elsewhere on their assumed life circumstances, for example, child care is a big topic. do not fit the image of the potentially successful scientist.

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Anna Ransiek: We found equivalent attributions for every area except for the area of mathematical skill or talent. Here we found to know assumed gender differences.

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Anna Ransiek: So to sum up the results about the female. About the field the female Phds and Postdocs develop and actualize their mathematical self. We found a high willingness to increase the proportion of women in the cluster and a distinction and emphasis of female mathematicians as women on site of the scientists in leadership position.

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Anna Ransiek: This happens in a discipline which is seen as objective and neutral and supposedly independent from subjects, but a male connotated image of a scientist or mathematician is still also powerful in the cluster

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Anna Ransiek: with us have a discipline that claims neutrality and independency from social processes, and its voice subject as a core of its safe image. but is already gendered in its access and practices

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Anna Ransiek: with the establishment of gender and mathematics, and the intrusion of the subject also, in the context of equal opportunity, the alleged neutrality of mathematics is disenchanted.

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so how do the female mathematicians position position themselves within this field?

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Anna Ransiek: When we look at the perspectives of human mathematicians on themselves and mathematics. we find an early ascribed and perceived talent already in school.

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also in the interviews. They do not show any insecurities, considering their mathematical talent.

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Anna Ransiek: however, when we look at their further perceptions about the field, and equal opportunity struggled through beer.

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Anna Ransiek: I brought a long of code to exemplify this. We also found the patterns exemplified here in the other interviews, and I will read it out.

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Anna Ransiek: I never felt discriminated, or that people treated me differently because I was a woman in stem.

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Anna Ransiek: so I always felt that I was doing my exams, and I was being evaluated for what I was before this. She talks about equality measures.

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Anna Ransiek: When I was studying Mas.

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Anna Ransiek: I wasn't thinking I am a woman. It was just mass, as a very neutral thing. That's also very detached from reality.

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Anna Ransiek: So you just study these abstract ideas and doesn't matter what gender you are.

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Anna Ransiek: And I ask myself that, what will people think? Will they think that I got this position only because I am a woman, and then I need this type of position, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to do the same job that a man is able to do.

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Anna Ransiek: The interview here states that she never felt discriminated in the neutral fields in which she considers herself part of as a mathematician.

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Anna Ransiek: Equal opportunity now challenges the shave image of the interviewee, because it focuses on her subject position as a woman who is in need of support, and therefore, in her opinion, this distinction leads to others questioning her skills.

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Anna Ransiek: What is interesting is that she sees the responsibility with equal opportunity and not with the fear itself.

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Anna Ransiek: I come to the conclusion.

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Anna Ransiek: What we have found is a tension field between being addressed as women, but wanting to be mathematicians, which leads to a dismissive attitude towards equal opportunity on site of the female Phd. Students and postdocs.

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Anna Ransiek: What is neglected also on site of the scientist in idiot serve position is that the characterization of a successful scientist or mathematician is already based on a male-dominated norm.

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Anna Ransiek: Instead of reflecting on the image itself the processes that are challenged into the post-neutrality of mathematics as a discipline are criticized

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Anna Ransiek: this critique of equality equally equal opportunity, and the positioning of women as women, not as mathematicians, helps maintain the concealed norm.

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so

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Anna Ransiek: how might our findings affect the discussion on equal opportunity as well as a debate on intersectionality? It is hopefully upcoming debate and intersectionality in the field of mathematics.

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Anna Ransiek: Hmm!

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Anna Ransiek: The assumption is reasonable but reasonable, and here we see the benefits of our findings for an intersectional perspective, that any positioning as a marginalized subject in a field of neutral and allegedly subject. Independent mathematics will also lead to experience the field of tension that we have shown for gender

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Anna Ransiek: as long as the core of the problem remains concealed.

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Anna Ransiek: it seems important to establish an environment in which subjects can address themselves in intersection, intersecting positions, such as, for example, international women with a non academic background.

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Anna Ransiek: and understand themselves as unequally tweeted without giving up their position as mathematicians. At the same time.

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Anna Ransiek: in order to resolve this field of tension. It is therefore necessary to deconstruct the image of the mathematician also

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morti002: thank you that for now.

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Anna Ransiek: also, with regard to other intersecting categories of difference first. So thank you very much.

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Thank you so much. Everybody for your presentations today. I'd like to now open up the floor for any questions, for our presenters

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pass up the back out.

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Thank you so much. My name is Marty Cole. I come from the ut University, Finland.

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I have one question to Giseppe Peekrini. First of all, thank you very much for your interesting presentation. When you talked about about these differences, you mentioned

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the importance of context. and I understand that it refers to national contacts

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at the same time, you also mentioned different topics like vaccines.

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So my question is that, did you see any kind of a similarities between different countries and transnationally when we are talking about specific sector like

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energy sector.

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so is is this kind of the sectoral participation. Other simulatories are, or is, the kind of a national context? Is it more important?

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If you get what I mean? I thank you. It's clear. I can say that

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in some cases, for example, in Northern Europe some participative methods are institutionalized, and it is a matter of tradition. There is

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much more closer from a politician and the civil society. So some tools are institutionalized

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in other countries. That is not the case, and usually grassroots organizations tend to propose ideas, new practices.

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and the

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again, it's a matter of democracy and the democratic culture in this way.

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so in other cases, for example, when the European Union Fund a lot of participated projects. What happened that, for example, in Eastern Europe, they tried to provide these new methods, trying to involve people to discuss, but it it it a sort of a one-shot.

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After this shot, again, they return to a democratic idea that a politician has to decide, and and and civil society do not have it to have a say to to improve, to, to build a sort of a deliberative process. So this is kind of a little bit different in different parts of Europe.

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And another key point is that you? You cannot take, for example, a method, for example, the consensus Conference. Typically in then in Denmark or in

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in Switzerland, you cannot take this kind of method and to transpose in another country with a different

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democratic tradition with a different idea of decision making. And so and sometimes I I looked at this idea of an artificial way to impose to this, to say, well, the open space technology is a very good tools. Well, we can use it now. But if you do not

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adequate this kind of process, it is a mess, sometimes a lot of restoration for a gas through the Association for Citizens, because

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it's a matter of communication. It's a matter of power. It's a matter of topic as you mentioned before.

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So, for example, a very moral, sensitive topics are very different from local problems regarding science and technology. So it's it's a bit complicated. We have to take into account a lot of variables in order to to propose correctly a participative tool.

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more or less. I try to.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Erez agmoni, Lisa, if you like to unmute you had your hand up first. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much for everybody for the presentations. I would have have a few kept questions to. First, to seminar Levi. As you said, your work is work in progress really interesting. And you just have this global approach. And I would like to 150

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: recommend that you look at the Nordic countries here in more detail, because, you know the countries have had these gender equality plans for over 30 years, so they were much, much earlier than the European

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: European Union. Push for 10 day quality planning. And there has been quite a slow development towards in sectionality and diversity. So it's been like a really sort of path dependent on this gender

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: change. The focus and the these countries are also among the most gender, equal by all kind of 10 day quality ranking indexes. So it might be quite interesting to look at that. And there is in a I just but in no way. There is a national committee which used to be about gender equality and research, and they worked relatively recently they got this kind of a remed to look at more in sectionally this topic.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: but this is quite unusual in the Nordic region, so I would like really to.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: But you do nuance your view about this with this pioneering countries and the the dynamics there.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: But this was like more more like a comment. But very interesting work. And I hope your Psd develops. Well, it's really, really, globally, very interesting topic. And certainly you will have a lot of people who are interested to read when you finalize your work.

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Okay, we have a question here.

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Thank you so much for your presentations. I have

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a few questions first to Tamiya as well, and I wanted to ask you about the situation in your region in Argentina about gender equality plans, because you have said that, nonetheless, it is a European eligibility, criteria European.

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but that it spreads all over different continents. So I wanted to ask if How the situation looks in your region.

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and what are the kind of like arguments? Is it connected to this European policy argument? Or are there some kind of

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more arguments that are connected to regional development? Somehow local arguments for that?

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And I had also a question for for Liza

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about this research funding organizations.

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and I wanted to ask

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if there if there is like a

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a push to to introduce some national level eligibility, criteria, or maybe they exist already in some of these studied countries, because I remember recently, on some debate, I heard that the the criteria, as they are now for a horizon Europe, they should go further, and also extend to the National Level funding

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to cover, like most of the research funding somehow, and that could be also connected to Research Dimension

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somehow. Thank you.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: well, first. So thank you, Lisa, for your comments. I will, surely. and have a look on this Arctic situation

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and about to my region, Argentina. Specifically, I don't have a data about this country. But

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: in Brazil, actually, we are having.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: And this project

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: offered by the British Council in Brazil.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and it offers a partnership between

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: British institutions that hold Athena's one awards and Brazilian higher education institutions. So it's kind of

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: a way of

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: How can I say that?

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: getting at this one in in in Brazil? It's like starting to to have this discussion in

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: aiming to to develop a framework

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: here.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: it's a very recent

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: I mean, it's like a a year or 2 years of work for now.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: And the the Brazilian institutions are slowly

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: starting to to discuss this topics and evaluation if it's possible. And

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and if it's a if it's a fits the Brazilian reality.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and to have a scheme like a certification or a award for a higher education institutions.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: But, related to the European. I mean this horizon Europe. a funding.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: It is interesting to to to to note that all the

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: a related universities, I mean, if a Brazilian

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: university wants to to work together with a university

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: of a European country that has this funding.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: And so the Brazilian university also has to to have a gender equality plan. So it's like, we are here trying to to understand how how to do that, how to

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: implement this devices.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: And so I think it's

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: sure something that we have to

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: to to to to to study more, and how it is being

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: spread and around the world.

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Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and yeah, that's it. Thank you for

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your question.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Okay, I would. I like to answer to that question about the whether the national level at the national level there are these eligibility criteria introduced checking equality plans as eligibility, criteria, and indeed Ireland has done that.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: As I mentioned in my my talk, I island has moved very, very fast in a short time, and some years ago. They have now in all national funding

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: agencies they have this one accreditation demand for eligibility to apply for funding, and and, like that, concerns, of course, the university of the applicant.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: So you have to kind of it's quite a quite a heavy. a heavy kind of demand. And

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: also related to this European Commission first time this year awarded gender equality plan

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: prices awards for

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: universities. One could apply for that award, and it was like 100,000

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: for the university there were 3 categories. First category was 10 day quality champions. Then there was this kind of newcomers, or like new status, and then universities which apply successful intersectional approaches and Ireland.

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Island shared the like winning category like champions. Trinity College with Karolinska in Sweden, and then the second and third category also, Ireland was really successful. So it's like, really shows how effective

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: this policy has been in Ireland. But there, none of these other

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Our simple countries have done that yet. And as far as we know, there hasn't been this national level

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Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: eligibility criteria introduced, even if it has been discussed in some countries definitely.

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Okay.

445
01:16:26.380 --> 01:16:55.219
thank you so much for the presentations. it was an extent plan. Panel So I have a I have a general question for potentially everyone like about intersectionality. because I think the first and second presenters mentioned that intersectionality was not kind of addressed as much as it it. It's supposed to be address in in those

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gender equality plans or the funding organizations. So I had. I had a question about the kind of the dimensions of this intersectionality, and like. What could you recommend in like the dimensions, such as race like the country of origin, for instance, like for countries that has that have

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sort of the large number of immigrants. So how could this kind of

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gender equality? Plans sort of ha! Have have have potentials to address these types of intersectional dimensions. And I have one particular question for Anna, about the about mathematicians who are kind of frustrated about the about the gender sort of their

449
01:18:00.270 --> 01:18:14.569
The the perspective of public about their gender, instead of being being mathematicians. So I have. I have one particular question about the kind of the family roles of women.

450
01:18:14.580 --> 01:18:33.729
The have you come come across any sort of family role, or or or sort of a politics of motherhood in these, in this topic that kind of makes a conflict

451
01:18:33.730 --> 01:19:00.219
with the sort of being a mathematician and being a woman. in your research. So that sort of because because in in the history of science there are a lot of like scientists who are so successful. But at the at at at some age they decide to go to, to leave science and go

452
01:19:00.230 --> 01:19:16.249
after a sort of a very typical life of a woman who has a family who has some children and and and this type of life. So I I wonder if if you come across such scenario to

453
01:19:18.250 --> 01:19:29.340
Anna Ransiek: maybe I will start. I'm sorry. Okay, indeed, I did. Motherhood or childcare. It's the main conflict. The

454
01:19:29.470 --> 01:19:35.490
Anna Ransiek: scientists leadership position C for female Phd in and postdocs.

455
01:19:35.800 --> 01:19:38.460
Anna Ransiek: It's the main reason. They.

456
01:19:38.540 --> 01:19:44.540
Anna Ransiek: the scientists, suggest that these female Phds and Postdocs leave signs.

457
01:19:45.560 --> 01:19:51.219
Anna Ransiek: But interesting enough in these interviews with this early and later stage researchers.

458
01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:55.920
Anna Ransiek: They didn't make child care that much of a topic

459
01:19:56.790 --> 01:20:05.009
Anna Ransiek: for them. It was that not the main reason why they leave science. There were other reasons, like, for example, the job wasn't interesting for them.

460
01:20:05.360 --> 01:20:13.240
Anna Ransiek: so we cannot say whether these female mathematicians do not talk about child care because they are like.

461
01:20:13.250 --> 01:20:24.790
Anna Ransiek: or also marked out as mothers in the cluster, or whether it isn't a real issue. But for the gatekeepers, for the scientists in leadership position, it is the main reason still.

462
01:20:25.750 --> 01:20:27.819
Anna Ransiek: that's women leave signs.

463
01:20:28.980 --> 01:20:39.479
Anna Ransiek: Okay? And for this other, I think it was mayor more about gender equality plans. But I'd like to add one thing, intersectionality is

464
01:20:39.770 --> 01:20:54.559
Anna Ransiek: not in the slightest an issue in the field.  they are discussing a little bit about diversity, but diversity in the field of math is Internet and internationalization.

465
01:20:54.670 --> 01:20:59.260
Anna Ransiek: which is recruiting Oxford students.

466
01:20:59.840 --> 01:21:09.200
Anna Ransiek: and diversity is also discussed as something like whether you choose applied or theoretical math.

467
01:21:09.580 --> 01:21:18.650
Anna Ransiek: So this this is the point where you are in this cluster. And so intersectionality? It's not in the slightest an issue.

468
01:21:25.230 --> 01:21:49.289
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Would anyone else like to answer that question, yeah, I would like to say something about this intersectionality issue. yeah, we found found like this kind of a listing of different discrimination grounds as forbidden discrimination grounds. But this kind of a like intersecting gender and other discrimination grounds. This kind of approach was really quite absent. And

469
01:21:49.290 --> 01:22:16.149
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: What could be, for example, relevant, is for funders, is, for example, looking at gender and age in terms of early career. Like early carrier women and early carrier, men might have very different challenges. So looking, these 2 groups, for example, in more detail, would be quite useful. Also, looking at, I'm not talking from a European perspective like looking at

470
01:22:16.360 --> 01:22:20.250
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: nationality, and for like

471
01:22:20.320 --> 01:22:21.670
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: European

472
01:22:21.860 --> 01:22:31.900
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: applicants and outside European applicants and gender. So there might be something something which would be quite relevant

473
01:22:32.110 --> 01:22:54.299
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: it might be really difficult to collect data. There's a lot of challenges collecting data on different kind of gender identification. So that is what a difficult, difficult era. But but these kind of aspects, for example, could be, but I mentioned, could be, could be helpful. But this era needs a lot of development definitely.

474
01:22:57.650 --> 01:22:59.620
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Oh, we have

475
01:22:59.830 --> 01:23:03.139
sorry. Yes, please go ahead. And then we've got one question at the back.

476
01:23:03.770 --> 01:23:12.179
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: Alright just I I don't really have one answer here. I will just add that

477
01:23:12.480 --> 01:23:21.510
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: there is something that in our research we are aiming to to understand. What does it mean

478
01:23:21.630 --> 01:23:30.359
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: an intersectional approach in this documents in this scheme, I mean, we, we

479
01:23:30.880 --> 01:23:50.600
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: read a lot of this concept, I mean, in this Canadian scheme in the United States called the the the change. They used this concept. But they don't really

480
01:23:50.780 --> 01:24:02.320
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: explain what it is, or what are they really doing or meaning with this concept of, or even they don't

481
01:24:02.550 --> 01:24:11.769
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and point out the theoretical debate. They don't make a references to this

482
01:24:12.080 --> 01:24:17.110
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: feminist discussion on this

483
01:24:17.190 --> 01:24:25.550
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: this team. So it's something that we still are trying to understand, trying to to really

484
01:24:25.590 --> 01:24:26.870
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: and

485
01:24:28.710 --> 01:24:35.680
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: figure out what it is and how it's it's being the done.

486
01:24:39.640 --> 01:24:49.040
Thank you. My name is Yva Vakyan, and I lead the work on gender equality and social justice that save the children. So not a research institution.

487
01:24:49.060 --> 01:24:58.750
but a lot of what you were saying about sort of gender, mainstreaming, gender equality plans and intersectionality in general has really been. I feel

488
01:24:58.820 --> 01:25:10.939
there's been a lot of debate and conversation. But and to to your point there's not really been operationalization of that word. What does that mean in practice?

489
01:25:10.960 --> 01:25:12.980
And in some ways?

490
01:25:13.190 --> 01:25:34.750
I mean, intersectionality is a theory of repression. And what I feel has happened is been sort of co-opted by the social inclusion, kind of agenda, or diversity and inclusion agenda of like becoming a theory of differences rather than understanding of what are some of the power, differential systemic oppression that

491
01:25:34.820 --> 01:25:47.009
like, and to intersect to create very unique experiences of power or powerlessness. And so and I feel that's sort of between

492
01:25:47.480 --> 01:26:10.540
between people who are activists who are you know, feminist activists and scholars and sort of di diversity, inclusion, practitioners. There is that tension of what? What does the intersectionality mean in practice? So so I don't know if it's a question or more of a comment than things that I'm I've been. Keep that keep me awake at night, but I'd love to hear more about it.

493
01:26:19.450 --> 01:26:26.970
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: I could comment from from our research about this funding agencies. We really really kind of

494
01:26:27.030 --> 01:26:37.230
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: kind of recognize that they are aware that they should do maybe something around this era. But there is not like very clear

495
01:26:37.700 --> 01:26:40.480
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: to them what they

496
01:26:40.950 --> 01:26:55.070
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: what what could they do? So? And in in that respect it's quite a useful. They have this funding agency networks to discuss this issues. But there is this kind of a awareness of that.

497
01:26:55.390 --> 01:27:03.610
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: This should be addressed. But a little bit cluelessness or confusion or

498
01:27:04.220 --> 01:27:16.630
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: kind of yeah. And especially in this environment which have been working for decades with gender equality. There is this kind of very strong tourism on that. So

499
01:27:16.670 --> 01:27:21.090
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: maybe some reluctance also to address this kind of a more.

500
01:27:21.120 --> 01:27:25.669
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: more broader issues, deepening, deepening the issues

501
01:27:34.660 --> 01:27:38.389
we have anyone else wanting to answer. I guess. Tasmania.

502
01:27:38.690 --> 01:27:52.729
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: yeah, I don't. I don't really have much more to to end it. It's just it's something that our research is trying to to understand as well. So

503
01:27:52.830 --> 01:27:56.609
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: thank you for your comments. I I think,

504
01:27:56.760 --> 01:28:00.500
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: we still have to to

505
01:28:01.270 --> 01:28:13.599
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: to get to more. research on on this. And this session is a very special for for getting together people that are interested in this.

506
01:28:13.690 --> 01:28:19.230
Tsamiyah Levi (she/her) - UNICAMP/BR: And yeah, let's keep in touch. And yeah.

507
01:28:21.570 --> 01:28:27.030
okay, so we've got about 15Â min left. Is there any more questions

508
01:28:28.540 --> 01:28:31.270
from anyone or any other points of discussion?

509
01:28:35.110 --> 01:28:36.760
I suppose not.

510
01:28:38.930 --> 01:28:51.780
I only would add some critical point regarding the system. For example, gender equality plan. It seems to me that sometimes

511
01:28:51.840 --> 01:29:12.329
these kind of tools are a little bit artificial. For example, for the European Union. If you, if you want to get money, you have to to have the the jet. in your organization. So I I. To be honest, I I appreciate this kind of of tools, but sometimes it seems to me that some

512
01:29:12.350 --> 01:29:21.499
in some way, some institutions do a sort of artificial process of engaging in this kind of tools?

513
01:29:21.740 --> 01:29:25.950
A. It's relevant what

514
01:29:26.020 --> 01:29:47.289
Liza said before, that if you have a strong tradition in gender a long tradition. This kind of tools are very natural. So you you take this this tool indicators and so on. So. But it's not the case in many countries. And, for example, as you mentioned before.

515
01:29:47.400 --> 01:30:00.029
 Samia, you said that if you wanted to cooperate in a European project, you have to to have the deject. So only camp have to have the J. But if you don't, what happened

516
01:30:00.070 --> 01:30:12.740
so and this is an interesting point. So the institutionalization is. Sometimes it's the wrong effect, but it's not so.

517
01:30:12.760 --> 01:30:20.890
So. It's not a virtue in in my mind, but just To to to pose a critical view on this, on these kind of tools.

518
01:30:21.350 --> 01:30:23.059
Thank you. I'm Anna.

519
01:30:25.830 --> 01:30:37.539
Anna Ransiek: Yeah. I have a question for Lisa. I'd like to know more about this gender sensitivity versus gender neutrality you mentioned. Maybe you can elaborate on it a little bit more.

520
01:30:38.840 --> 01:30:54.470
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: okay, it's a one could give up presentation on on that alone. And we are like developing this. But we we notice, especially in the Swedish context, where there are really like strict guidelines about like one. She didn't

521
01:30:54.920 --> 01:31:08.670
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: 1. One should take gender into account in many ways. But then, in the panels the panelists tell that they are not talking much about Jen Chanda is not talked about. So there is this kind of attention that they

522
01:31:08.940 --> 01:31:19.549
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: the panel chairs are maybe trained to kind of take into account gender aspects when

523
01:31:19.820 --> 01:31:23.340
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: for example, screening out the weakest

524
01:31:23.560 --> 01:31:52.340
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: applications so that only the most successful can be discussed. But it's not visible for the people who are sitting in the panel. So so this kind of on the one hand, gender should not matter, but we know that it matters, and if it's like not talked about in terms of avoiding gender bias, it can lead to gender bias. I'm not sure if I made it clear. But we are like discussing this within our

525
01:31:52.360 --> 01:32:04.890
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: our group, and how to kind of try to understand that. So it's A very interesting interview results from the people who are sitting in the panels and trying to apply this quite

526
01:32:05.040 --> 01:32:16.879
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: detailed guidelines of the Research Council. And, for example, to be this Research Council kind of States in their gender equality plan that

527
01:32:17.070 --> 01:32:29.490
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: scientific talent The starting point is that scientific talent is at the same level among women and men. So so they state that as a background

528
01:32:30.060 --> 01:32:40.869
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: mit Ctl, and I'm not sure if I answered the question, I have also a question now to to peel a green because you talked about this deliberative practices. But I

529
01:32:41.090 --> 01:32:44.460
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: I was like missing some kind of

530
01:32:44.560 --> 01:32:57.409
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Did you look at all? How gender? Equality and diversity were involved in this engagement, in this deliver deliberative practices? They were like huge amount of different practices. But

531
01:32:57.520 --> 01:33:03.080
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: was there any any kind of analyzes about how?

532
01:33:03.490 --> 01:33:06.740
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: How those who participated?

533
01:33:06.770 --> 01:33:08.200
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: Was it like

534
01:33:08.710 --> 01:33:12.909
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: gender balance? Was it like a some groups

535
01:33:13.360 --> 01:33:20.910
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University:  over represented. in terms of gender. And and this intersectional approaches.

536
01:33:26.400 --> 01:33:35.010
Thank you for the question. This is a very good question given that there are not so many studies regarding differences in deliberative processes.

537
01:33:35.050 --> 01:33:42.160
So this is an interesting point, a suggestion for future development in research.

538
01:33:42.200 --> 01:34:01.119
What I found in my experience, for example, is that usually in deliberative processes there are people well engaged people with high level of culture. And so in this way there are not a specific attention to to differences.

539
01:34:01.160 --> 01:34:14.090
So it's a matter of interest, and probably it's an important thing to take into account in the next development of deliberative processes. Thank you.

540
01:34:17.500 --> 01:34:20.420
I think we have. Yes, time for one more

541
01:34:20.580 --> 01:34:22.399
out the back here again.

542
01:34:24.590 --> 01:34:35.970
Thank you so much. So this kind of a continuation. What? Lisa just asked from Pelicrini, so do do you already see some kind of development

543
01:34:36.100 --> 01:34:44.749
in the toolbox? I mean in in how are different? Marginalized groups are taking into account engagement.

544
01:34:45.520 --> 01:34:48.949
some, some, some first thoughts.

545
01:34:49.220 --> 01:35:12.490
Okay. Once again, if you look at the horizon, Europe, there are many things regarding differences you have to involve wrong, wrong, wrong people, marginalized people. But it's a matter of fact that it's not so easy, because our categories as a researchers are not the popular categories in which it's possible to involve marginalized people.

546
01:35:12.820 --> 01:35:26.099
So it's a sort of a paradox from one side there is a European rhetoric saying, well, you have to be always engaging. But this is not so

547
01:35:26.150 --> 01:35:45.389
coherent, because sometimes, as you know, we as a researchers, we have the question and the answer usually, but the the opposite. It's starting from the question coming from the people or marginalized people, which is completely different. And this is not so easy. It's not easy to institutionalized.

548
01:35:45.410 --> 01:35:56.760
and sometimes it seems to me an effort to a sort of a rhetoric, a political athletic, a politically correct at all. Coming from the European Union. I don't know how it's

549
01:35:57.250 --> 01:36:02.210
it is not so easy to manage, but and

550
01:36:02.700 --> 01:36:07.549
an authentic grassroots approach is very, very different.

551
01:36:08.860 --> 01:36:17.060
Okay, I think this might be. yeah, because I find this a very interesting debate. And also I think it connects to your point about

552
01:36:17.110 --> 01:36:27.579
about repression. Yeah, because if we like design policies to like, yeah, like, we can say, take the boxes like, so we contact every group that is actually maybe not.

553
01:36:27.850 --> 01:36:54.110
It's not like their interest. Yes, somehow, to kind of I don't know, to fight for, for, for, for, for, for, for for something in in some areas. Yes. So it's it's really interesting with this gender equality plus like, yeah, it should like include different groups that is like to tick the box. Or, for example, if it should be maybe more tailored. And yeah, and really trying to

554
01:36:54.360 --> 01:37:09.230
to think which groups really like have an interest in, to be included in the inquiry plan, as you say. For example, in Time University, there is a lot of researchers with migrant backgrounds, so that might be an important dimension and some other universities.

555
01:37:09.230 --> 01:37:30.369
There is ethnic minorities or or indigenous groups. Yes, and and this might differ. Yes, and so I think, as if we we try to go, maybe for all the different characteristics it's really like. It's too much also for the university. I don't know. I think I find it an interesting question and and difficulty. I think, also on the organization level, how to deal with this, you know, and

556
01:37:30.370 --> 01:37:46.430
and especially when you have this, this eligibility criteria that has to be done like in few months. So it's it's almost like this allows any kind of like deliberate process, or any kind of like bottom up kind of emergence of of some interest groups or or something. Yeah. So.

557
01:37:48.440 --> 01:37:49.480
Lisa.

558
01:37:49.710 --> 01:38:18.470
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: yeah. Quick comment about this eligibility. Criteria, gender equity plan as eligibility criteria for horizon Europe applications. Obviously there is a danger as as Pellegrini was indicating that it will be like a sort of tick. The boxes, and you know, window dressing and so on. But there are at least some criteria that you has put for how to assess these 10 acres plans what should be there

559
01:38:18.580 --> 01:38:20.780
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: but to the

560
01:38:21.030 --> 01:38:38.319
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: when it comes to the France, of course, what kind of people are assessing in the panels this eligibility criteria, whether it's fulfilled properly or not. That is very kind of key. And how the Commission is going to be evaluating

561
01:38:38.320 --> 01:38:59.070
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: this, how? How does it work? We don't know. Yet this is a new thing, and it has definitely mobilized us to my asset. Just mobilized European universities to kind of write these plans. But then how they are assist in the application phase we don't yet know. It's a research question and evaluation question.

562
01:38:59.150 --> 01:39:01.880
Liisa Husu, Ã–rebro University: But there is a danger window dressing definitely

563
01:39:06.570 --> 01:39:13.840
all right, if there's no more questions, or if anyone has one last comment, we've got a couple of minutes left

564
01:39:16.730 --> 01:39:21.030
this way. We

565
01:39:23.900 --> 01:39:34.709
in that case I would like to close by thanking everyone for their attendance this morning, and of course, by thanking all of our wonderful presenters, if we could just have another round of applause for them.