WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:12.470
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: a warm welcome to all of you on site in Melbourne, and also in the zoom room My name is Maria Ponla August, and I, Jed session today on collective memories.

2
00:00:12.540 --> 00:00:34.690
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Oh, violence. And the session, is a joint session. together with the R. C. 46 historic sociology and the session organizers are Miriam Sheffield. She will present today to here in the session, Kabul and our colleague Dennis.

3
00:00:34.760 --> 00:00:38.640
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: we have 4 presentation okay.

4
00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:54.349
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: next 2 h and each presenter has 20 min, and then we have a couple of minutes left for comments, for short questions, and yeah, and so on. And

5
00:00:55.530 --> 00:01:14.059
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: okay, so I can. I'm happy to introduce our first presenter, Ashley Barnwell. She is a senior lecture in sociology. She's interested in sociological aspects of emotions, memory and narrative.

6
00:01:14.060 --> 00:01:34.649
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: and also in the role of live writing, archive and literature in sociologic research. And currently she's working on your project. family secrets, national silences, intergenerational memory and settler, Colonial, Australian. And I guess your presentation will deal with this one.

7
00:01:34.740 --> 00:01:39.899
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: aspects. okay, so it's your floor.

8
00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:41.660
Thank you, Maria.

9
00:01:42.050 --> 00:01:55.950
okay. So I've written my paper to stop me from Waffling beyond the 20 min region. I'd like to start by acknowledging that we're here on unseeded warranty country, and to pay my respect to elders, past and present.

10
00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:16.450
My title here draws from sociologist, sociologist of emotion Ali Hoxshield's theorization of deep stories from her book in 2,016, which highlight, emotional and narrative aspects of political affiliation, or the way that people can invest so deeply in a story that they can't see beyond it.

11
00:02:16.900 --> 00:02:32.229
While Hawkshield studied tea party Republicans in the United States. I'm trying to extend her theory into a different space. to look at settler myths in families and to examine the relationship between family and national memory. Stories.

12
00:02:32.440 --> 00:02:47.630
Interviews come from my project which Marie just mentioned, family secrets, national silences which uses qualitative and archival methods to investigate the inherited secrets, stories, and memories that inform a strain's understandings of colonial history.

13
00:02:48.530 --> 00:02:59.180
because there's a secession about biographical methods and memories of violence within families and communities. Particularly. I'll refer to one case study from the project. John.

14
00:02:59.230 --> 00:03:05.019
who found out through family history research that his settler ancestor, was a perpetrator of colonial violence.

15
00:03:05.920 --> 00:03:27.750
The context of family, I will argue, animates the concept of deep stories in different ways. In families stories can run deep, they can be tied tightly to feelings of belonging and obligation. Yet, for some of the people I spoke to, families were also places of talk and change, albeit often slow or partial change.

16
00:03:28.210 --> 00:03:35.590
Family histories were embedded in the stories of the nation, but they could also counter the simplicity of these national stories.

17
00:03:35.980 --> 00:03:43.590
My aim here is to consider what close attention to this crossover can reveal about the socio-political power of inherited narratives

18
00:03:44.690 --> 00:03:57.500
as a point of difference from Hockshield. My research doesn't look at people who sit at the far end of a political spectrum. In this study we see people who often describe themselves as not very political.

19
00:03:57.660 --> 00:04:07.820
They are still deciding what they think, and are, second, guessing what they've thought before, only half committed to a deep story, and sometimes in the process of waiting out of it.

20
00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:23.720
This work is situated at a time when there are global calls for reckoning with colonial histories specifically around venerating colonial figures through commemorations and nationalist mythologies that erase the violence and plunder of colonial expansion

21
00:04:24.020 --> 00:04:38.849
based in sociology. This paper speaks to whiteness, studies foremost the work of Eileen Morton Robinson, and related work in settler colonial studies. And here I've been quite interested in the work of Mark Rithcombe, Rifkin, and his work on Settler Time.

22
00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:47.750
These works seek to make plain the mechanics of how settler narratives, construct exclusionary notions of history, time, and memory.

23
00:04:48.500 --> 00:05:02.990
Indigenous riders in Australia, including Alexis Wright and alien Martin Robinson, have called for non-indigenous Australians to stop telling deficit narratives about aboriginal people, and to instead take a long look at their own deficits of knowledge.

24
00:05:03.730 --> 00:05:15.210
My research hopes to add modestly by exploring how some settler families are working through the construction of colonial silences and mythologies as deep stories within their own family history.

25
00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:27.100
and in some cases using this knowledge, or attempting to use this knowledge to educate their families and the wider friendship circles about their role in colonization.

26
00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:36.589
So I'm going to first briefly, outline Hox shields concept of deep stories for those who don't already know it, and then turn to my own project.

27
00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:53.810
So this is the cover of the book. Next to it is another book that's been very important, theoretically, to the project finding Eliza V. I'm not talking about that today, but I had to put it on the slide, because I try and evangelize this book at any possible opportunity.

28
00:05:55.770 --> 00:06:04.770
So in strangers in their own land, anger and mourning on the American right, from 2016, Ali Hawkshire develops this concept of deep stories

29
00:06:05.080 --> 00:06:18.319
written for a general audience. The theoretical elements of Hoxschild's book are not detailed with brief explanations included mostly in end notes. So you have to do a bit of work to try and draw out the the concepts. In this book

30
00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:34.360
Hockshield spent months with Tea Party Republicans in the Us. Southern States in the lead up to the 2,016 Presidential election that was eventually won by Donald Trump. She explains that her informants relayed versions of the same story.

31
00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:44.550
a deep story about being disadvantaged by the swing to identity politics, and left behind by an elite political class of leftist leftist Northerners.

32
00:06:45.260 --> 00:06:55.059
A deep story. Howkshire clarifies. is centered around metaphors for her informants. This metaphor was one of waiting in line

33
00:06:55.110 --> 00:07:10.629
patiently than having others, migrants, women, minorities cut in front of the line. Such metaphors, Hoxshield argues, are emotional formulas. They give collective sentiment a shape and a shared descriptive language.

34
00:07:10.710 --> 00:07:13.790
they crystallize pre-existing feeling.

35
00:07:14.350 --> 00:07:29.179
The deep story, according to Hoxshield, also implies an area of amnesia. The narrative structure, therefore, is sustained by collective acts of feeling, including refusals to feel as well as rememberings and forgettings.

36
00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:36.950
Emotion is central to the concept of deep stories which builds on Hawkshire's theorization of feeling rules.

37
00:07:37.150 --> 00:07:43.230
The deep story is one that feels as if it should be true, a narrative as felt.

38
00:07:43.260 --> 00:07:47.739
and it runs counter to to how the storyteller is often being told to feel.

39
00:07:48.730 --> 00:08:00.410
2 specific aspects of Hokstill's conceptualization of deep stories interests me here. Empathy walls and emotional grooves which reveal its structural and temporal dimensions.

40
00:08:00.890 --> 00:08:07.590
Hoxhaud explains that the deep story acts structurally by creating what she calls empathy walls.

41
00:08:07.650 --> 00:08:20.289
This is a quote, an obstacle to deep understanding of another person. one that can make us feel indifferent or even hostile to those who hold different beliefs, or whose childhood is rooted in different circumstances.

42
00:08:21.170 --> 00:08:30.979
The deep story becomes a barrier, and new information, especially counter-information, is more likely to be deflected and distorted rather than to break

43
00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:33.640
the empathy wall down.

44
00:08:33.810 --> 00:08:50.320
She also has this concept of emotional groups, which is much less clearly sketched out in the book. But she has this example, which I think helps to convey it, and that is, that when she spoke to some of these tea party Republicans, they would say very emphatically that Hillary Clinton was from the north.

45
00:08:50.340 --> 00:09:04.730
and she says, like, in saying this, they were inflecting this history of the Civil War and going back to the sort of divisions between North and South. So there's this idea of these deep kind of histories or memories playing out in the way that people

46
00:09:05.260 --> 00:09:07.520
describe their political affiliation.

47
00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:10.520
Thank you.

48
00:09:11.980 --> 00:09:13.040
So here, and

49
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:22.839
I wish to consider a particularly potent deep story in Australian culture. Indeed, an origin story, what I will call the settler deep story.

50
00:09:23.160 --> 00:09:37.200
Unlike Hawkshire, I make no claim to identifying this story. It is a story ubiquitous and recognizable to most Australians, and its reproduction has been thoroughly analysed and critique by numerous indigenous and non-indigenous scholars.

51
00:09:37.540 --> 00:09:51.729
The tale can be found in almost every school history book published prior to the 1,900 ninetys, and sadly many after in history, society's museums, in pioneer monuments, in most regional towns and in many family histories.

52
00:09:53.190 --> 00:09:54.350
In short.

53
00:09:54.450 --> 00:10:13.889
the settler deep story portrays a peaceful settlement, but, like all stories, it takes on various plot elements. Usually the tail begins in 1,788. With the arrival of the first fleet, the first 11 ships to transport convicts and settlers from England to Australia to establish a penal colony.

54
00:10:14.450 --> 00:10:31.829
This is a story about founders arriving from Britain, the Empire on cramped boats after an arduous and stricken journey to a new land, strange and rugged, where they battle against the odds. To build. A nation strong with egalitarian virtue and stoic character

55
00:10:32.810 --> 00:10:44.549
included, are a set of emotional directives. Australians are to feel proud of this triumph over adversity gains fairly won through hard work, sacrifice, and the batless spirit.

56
00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:52.250
This story very often presents the land as empty waiting to be discovered and mapped by intrepid explorers.

57
00:10:52.260 --> 00:10:56.980
The violence of colonization and the stealing of aboriginal lands is emitted.

58
00:10:57.470 --> 00:11:14.479
Historian, Anne Kathleen, has described this as white Australian historical mythology, that stresses struggle, courage, and survival amidst pain, tragedy, and loss, and nobles, both settler and convict ancestors for their suffering, sacrifice, and defiance in defeat.

59
00:11:14.750 --> 00:11:25.340
And I've got here a very famous Arain painting by Frederick Mccubbin, the pioneer, which which captures this sort of story or narrative of pioneer hardship.

60
00:11:25.350 --> 00:11:44.679
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Interrupt you shortly. if you put the paper, please put the paper down because the camera is in front of you. So I didn't. I didn't have blocking your faces the whole time. Okay? Great. Okay.

61
00:11:45.460 --> 00:11:54.370
The deep story of pioneering pride and achievement and its requisite blind spots and amnesia's has been defended at the national scale.

62
00:11:55.990 --> 00:12:10.989
For example, this logic was evident in the rhetoric of former Australian Prime Minister, John Howard, who was extremely 12, very, very long years that he was in power. And he had a particular personal interest in history and in

63
00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:21.380
creating a a kind of nationalistic meta-narrative of Australian history. So this is him in a quote in an address to the Reconciliation Council

64
00:12:21.550 --> 00:12:26.370
here, and I'll let you read it. I won't read it out for the sake of time. But importantly.

65
00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:40.549
within this, there are these. particularly this directive, that Australians of this generation now should not be required to accept guilt and blame for past actions and policies over which they had no control.

66
00:12:41.140 --> 00:12:52.419
asserting national feeling rules. Howard's defence of the deep story and its empathy walls had a lasting influence on lay discussions about colonial history, including within family stories.

67
00:12:52.660 --> 00:13:04.560
You also see, see here this emotional groove of 1,788, which is something that also links to debates around Australia Day, reiterating that this is where the story begins.

68
00:13:05.070 --> 00:13:16.390
In my research with family historians. I have heard people invoke this logic. but other people have said that they do feel shame and responsibility for the actions of their ancestors.

69
00:13:16.410 --> 00:13:21.249
and are trying to make a sense of this inheritance and what it might mean in the present.

70
00:13:25.890 --> 00:13:31.999
So I'm going to switch now. The last section of the paper is a brief look at John's case study.

71
00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:41.149
So John started to do family history research to help his elderly father, who was working on the family history but couldn't use a computer.

72
00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:48.410
When his father died he thought that he and his brother should take up the project as a way to honor their father's legacy.

73
00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:58.839
One night, late trawling the Internet for ancestors names, John came upon an entry for his ancestor, Simon Freebody, who was a convict on the second fleet.

74
00:13:59.310 --> 00:14:16.259
The entry included a citation to a trial in which Simon and 3 other emancipated convicts, along with one free constable, were found guilty of murdering 2 aboriginal boys who were known to them, aged 15 and 11, who, they alleged, had killed their friend.

75
00:14:17.050 --> 00:14:29.530
A colonial court, already skewed in favor of the settlers, found that the 2 boys were not responsible for the murder of the settler, and were, in fact, just returning the man's musket, which they had found.

76
00:14:30.100 --> 00:14:44.060
The court found the 5 settlers guilty of murder, but could not come to a consensus on the punishment. The case was referred to the Crown to make a decision, and the crown granted amend the men. A reprieve.

77
00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:55.080
as John found through further research, Simon Freebody was granted more allotments of land on the Hawksbury River, and became wealthy, living almost to the age of 90.

78
00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:58.449
So I have a few more minutes

79
00:14:59.510 --> 00:15:00.399
for you.

80
00:15:01.100 --> 00:15:05.539
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Yes, of course you have. wait a moment. You have

81
00:15:05.930 --> 00:15:08.380
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: 5 min.

82
00:15:09.180 --> 00:15:35.329
So in the biographical interviews, and you've probably already read some of this text on the slide. A big question of working through the family history and people's findings within this project is about how how did you not know, I mean often, what people find is that there was a a huge amount of information around them, and they could have known this information about their ancestors. So there's this question of how did they not know? And Hawksfield's idea of the deep story has been

83
00:15:35.520 --> 00:16:04.350
helpful in in working with people to think about. Well, where are these sources of the deep story? And for John one of these was at school, you know, thinking back to what he did and did not learn about history at school and also at home. So his family told this story of pride. You know, that fits in with the national narratives around Gallipoli, and he said, You know, this is a story that we spoke about in the family

84
00:16:04.350 --> 00:16:15.439
And even now that John has written this into a version of the family history and shared it with the family, there's still a refusal to talk about this or to accept it.

85
00:16:16.610 --> 00:16:24.990
But I wanted to focus to finish on 2 examples where John has also tried to speak about this history beyond the family.

86
00:16:25.930 --> 00:16:28.820
So one of them sort of taps into this

87
00:16:28.850 --> 00:16:43.339
notion of empathy walls. So John happened to be. You know he's retired now, but in his career he was a journalist for what is probably one of the most conservative tabloids newspapers in this country. The Korea male in Queensland.

88
00:16:43.630 --> 00:16:59.779
and he said to me that you know, while he probably should have anticipated the kind of response that he got from this audience when he wrote this piece. He actually didn't, because they were his audience. You know, he mostly wrote about sport and finance and things like that. So he was kind of shocked when he got the reception that he did

89
00:17:00.090 --> 00:17:15.520
so. You can see here also, in the response that he got when he published this piece about his family history and paper this kind of rhetoric that comes from John Howard. You'll see the kind of echoes from the previous quote that I had on the slide

90
00:17:15.560 --> 00:17:29.969
where one of the comments said, Mr. Mccarthy, you are not responsible for what a care 200 years ago. Stop kicking yourself for it. Far better to look forward with our indigenous community and put past roles, imagined or otherwise, where they belong.

91
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:47.550
John added. It goes on like that, and that's one of the more polite ones. I think it goes on about how we called the Nazis in the Second World War, and we should be glad about that. And then John, also another point where he has sort of spoken out in the public realm. And he didn't frame this as some sort of big

92
00:17:47.840 --> 00:18:07.950
act of activism or anything like this. It was a very subtle thing that he he kind of did through frustration. But going to, I mentioned John Howard before another recent Conservative Prime Minister in Australia's history, Scott Morrison, and something that Scott Morrison did was draw on his own biography and family history when he gave speeches on Australia day

93
00:18:07.970 --> 00:18:17.209
And often he would reference his convict ancestry and talk about this struggle. You know this deep story of struggle in a new country

94
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:18.770
and that kind of thing.

95
00:18:18.890 --> 00:18:35.880
so in 2,019, Scott Morrison was quoted by a journalist, the Invasion Day Parade, which for people who on Australian happens each year of people protesting that we shouldn't be celebrating Australia day on, you know, January 26,

96
00:18:35.890 --> 00:18:41.150
to mark the 1,788 commemoration of British colonialism in this country.

97
00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:54.210
The Invasion Day parade was going past, and he said to the journalists, You know, 1788, 26 of January for my ancestors was a pretty good, difficult day as well. and John.

98
00:18:54.300 --> 00:19:17.450
I think in some interesting ways he uses that rhetorical strategy of of talking back to his own biography. You know this is my story, but he does this in a way that is trying to undermine the equivalence that Scott Morrison is trying to claim here, and in in accessing and tapping into that deep story, and also that emotional groove, he says, Right, my ancestor was on the same convict ship as Scott Morrison's.

99
00:19:17.450 --> 00:19:27.339
It was pretty grim, but my ancestor was eventually freed, given land and escaped conviction for murdering 2 aboriginal boys. It's not the same as aboriginal experience.

100
00:19:29.810 --> 00:19:45.060
So yes, I guess I'm just gonna finish here. I didn't have like a a properly wedded out conclusion. But just wanting to think about the ways that Ali Hawks shields concept of deep stories and also empathy walls can be.

101
00:19:45.370 --> 00:20:05.719
It can be useful here in looking at the kind of emotional and narrative aspects of people's political commitments, but also the process of people changing these commitments as they come to learn about their own history as they come to engage in discourses that are beyond this deep story that they've grown up with, and that they may have clung to at previous points of their life.

102
00:20:05.870 --> 00:20:07.939
So I'm going to end there. Thank you.

103
00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:21.129
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Ashley. Also to be in time. yeah, we have time for questions, comments.

104
00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:27.829
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: so I cannot see. The people in the room on side. I only see them.

105
00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:48.289
Maria Pohn-Lauggas:  The persons in the Zoom Meeting. thank you. So. Are there any any questions

106
00:20:49.300 --> 00:20:51.089
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: I've been looking to so long?

107
00:20:53.380 --> 00:20:54.260
Good back there.

108
00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:00.760
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: But there's one

109
00:21:00.830 --> 00:21:14.830
you so much for your talk. It was super interesting. I have a question regarding the moral emotions, such as shame. I found it a very interesting piece of your presentation in your paper, and I was wondering what your thoughts are on

110
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:22.270
integrating this colonial history within this framework, where truth, finding, and recognition are important.

111
00:21:22.330 --> 00:21:30.370
but it doesn't necessarily lead to personal feelings of shame. Would that be possible? Or is that a necessary moral emotion for this

112
00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:31.560
integration?

113
00:21:33.770 --> 00:21:39.809
I think I'd have to really think about that. I mean, I don't know if I would think it's a necessary moral emotion to have

114
00:21:40.040 --> 00:21:59.639
personal shame in the same way, and certainly it shouldn't be that people only care about these things if they have a family or personal connection to them, you know. And the example I'm talking here is obviously someone who does, but I think it. It can't rely on that in a way, for everybody to feel this personal shame, because there's also the collective

115
00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:22.370
benefit that we all get, even if we don't have these direct histories. Settler histories from living in the the cellar colony. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question in some way, but I think that shame often becomes a bit of a battleground. You know it is this emotion, West, people saying, you shouldn't feel shame. I shouldn't have to feel shame.

116
00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:32.929
And yet people do. And then they're sort of made to feel a shame about feeling shame by people who they've sort of previously shared this political space with.

117
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:43.459
So I think it it becomes. It is a very important Sarah Ahmed writes really beautifully on the the emotion of shame within this context of this very kind of debate. So that's a good

118
00:22:43.770 --> 00:22:44.810
touching.

119
00:22:48.300 --> 00:22:50.170
There's another question here in the room.

120
00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:51.370
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Okay.

121
00:22:54.950 --> 00:23:00.019
thanks so much. I was wondering if you could speak to the role of new digital tools in

122
00:23:00.130 --> 00:23:21.390
connecting these stories. I, for example, I know that an ancestor.com. If you're John's fourth cousin, you're automatically then linked to his story, and I'm wondering what role that could play in these discussions. Yeah, I think there's 2 things I'd say to that. The first is that one of the things I think can be kind of interesting is that there's always

123
00:23:21.390 --> 00:23:34.859
claims around how the stratification or the siloing of political groups on spaces like Twitter and Facebook means that people don't get exposed to anything contrary, and I think that John's tweet there.

124
00:23:35.280 --> 00:23:44.249
like his sort of courier male following, there is a sort of potential for people, for there to be more conjecture within their Silas than maybe we allow.

125
00:23:44.380 --> 00:24:02.589
but I think with the ancestry.com. One like one would hope that this is the case. But there's another participant in my study who Together with another woman and they they run the Mile Creek Memorial Commemoration each year, and they tried to set up this

126
00:24:02.840 --> 00:24:08.040
Lynn tried to set up this thing on ancestry com where people would

127
00:24:08.310 --> 00:24:21.129
own up to like that. They are descendants of the perpetrators of the Male Creek massacre, or they somehow have family links to these people, as Lynn and her colleague do. and they had 0 people.

128
00:24:21.310 --> 00:24:31.059
and they could see that on ancestry people had copied these histories that they had posted up there on this sort of collective tree community.

129
00:24:31.310 --> 00:24:44.300
They could see people who posted them on their personal page, but they seemed very reluctant to come forward and be part of this, I guess. Perpetrator, descendant group that they were trying to start. So yeah, I think

130
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:50.660
while it can make it very evident to see who are the descendants, I think getting people to

131
00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:55.729
revise their family story in a way that incorporates that or acknowledges it

132
00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:59.310
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: is that maybe is a different task.

133
00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:05.490
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: We have time for our last question here in the zoom room from Efa.

134
00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:10.599
Eva Bahl: Hi, Ashley!

135
00:25:10.730 --> 00:25:16.879
Hello, Eva! Last time we were we met we were injuring Spargo. Yes, exactly.

136
00:25:17.100 --> 00:25:32.849
Eva Bahl: very nice to see you. Thank you for this fascinating presentation. I was curious if you could tell us a bit more about your sample like you already started. But the other people you interviewed, and if they were all public figures like John, because I was a bit

137
00:25:33.080 --> 00:25:48.569
Eva Bahl: surprise. I don't know if surprises right, but that he's really he's public, and you also. You don't anonymize him. You show his tweets so I can. He seems to be a public about his story. So was this the same with all your other interviews.

138
00:25:48.630 --> 00:25:50.150
Eva Bahl: Thank you very much.

139
00:25:50.160 --> 00:26:14.659
Thank you. Thanks for the question. And no, it's a real mix. So there are some people, I guess a lot of family historians do publish it a work. Oftentimes it's it can be a modest work like it's not always a kind of a bestseller, but it is something where they'll often have a website, and you can. You can purchase the book or it's available through family history societies and through my kind, like in consent and ethics form process.

140
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:29.400
I worked with people and really gave them a choice about whether they wanted to be anonymized or not, or if they wanted to be anonymized, anonymized in some aspects and not others. And I was surprised actually, that most people really

141
00:26:29.450 --> 00:26:34.819
and said that they wanted to use their own name and to own their own family history.

142
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:52.920
And I think that that's important. Actually, I mean with this question that we had first about the context of truth telling. I think it's tricky if if people will only tell their stories about their ancestors in some way, in a very anonymized sense. But I also wanted there to be the opportunity for people to do that, because I noticed that

143
00:26:52.920 --> 00:27:09.670
often there's really, really strong generational impacts, like people will know this. And they want to talk about it. But they're really worried about upsetting older generations of their family. And so I think, having those choices around anonymisation or not were were important.

144
00:27:09.760 --> 00:27:14.939
But yeah, there's some people who, I guess, have spoken a bit more openly about

145
00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:35.439
their family history in different public settings. I did interview artists and writers and historians and people who are really very much public figures that have used their family history. But a huge percent of the sample that I have are people that are very much non public figures. You know they are just people that are writing about their family for their family

146
00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:43.969
and the main audience, for their work is their family. But I I kind of chose to speak about John today because I thought it kind of showcased that angle as well.

147
00:27:44.470 --> 00:27:45.250
Yeah.

148
00:27:46.630 --> 00:27:47.519
Eva Bahl: thank you.

149
00:27:48.060 --> 00:27:48.860
Thanks you.

150
00:27:49.430 --> 00:28:08.730
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Thank you very much, Ashley. Thanks for giving us an insight to your project and your work. yeah, I want to go on with the next presentation from a Miriam, Shifa and Santa Cruz, and it works at the University of you.

151
00:28:09.020 --> 00:28:27.900
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: good in good in Germany. In a dissertation she deals with the structures of action and memory, of descendants of women and girls who were classified and pursued as a social, so-called a social and so-called criminals. under national Socialism.

152
00:28:28.110 --> 00:28:51.349
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: and Miriam Shiva is also a sociologist and a researcher at at the University of Nottingham and her research interests are interrelation of biographies and organizations and also multi-generational biographical research in the field of police. And in the context of persecution.

153
00:28:51.580 --> 00:28:55.740
Okay, so it's it's yours. It's good.

154
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:00.359
Sarah Könecke: Yeah, thanks for the kind introduction. You can see the screen right?

155
00:29:00.540 --> 00:29:06.200
Sarah Könecke: The presentation. Okay? yeah, we will.

156
00:29:06.290 --> 00:29:09.729
Sarah Könecke: So in our presentation, how simultaneity of

157
00:29:09.820 --> 00:29:32.399
Sarah Könecke: persecute of, or some attendant, you have Social racist persecution and perpetration, and a national Socialism affects the construction of family memories, and these are some results of a project on intergenerational action and memory structures in families of stigmatized Nazi victims in Austria and Germany.

158
00:29:33.300 --> 00:29:47.620
Sarah Könecke:  here. in the project we are looking at the effects that experiences of prosecution have on the intergenerational and biographical structures of action and memory of the descendants.

159
00:29:47.830 --> 00:29:58.539
Sarah Könecke: and the groupings we are starting are, among others, descendants of professional criminals and a social, as they were called on the national socialism

160
00:29:58.860 --> 00:30:15.709
Sarah Könecke: and the empirical case we will present today is about a family in which an ancestor was persecuted as a so called a social, and the category included, for example, homeless people, alcoholics, women engaged in prostitution and welfare recipients.

161
00:30:16.340 --> 00:30:28.549
Sarah Könecke: This categorization was based on the national Socialist idea of a pure and homogeneous community and was linked to eugenics, and the doctrine of race and heredity.

162
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:40.869
Sarah Könecke: Persecution was carried out by various state and municipal institutions, and those persecuted were sent to welfare institutions prisons and concentration camps. Among other places.

163
00:30:41.950 --> 00:30:56.149
Sarah Könecke: this grouping most stigmatized, not only in national social society, but also before and even after it, and in some cases they continued to be liable to prosecution after 1,945.

164
00:30:56.770 --> 00:31:11.640
Sarah Könecke: These victims of persecution never form to victims association and together with the so called professional criminals were not officially recognized as victims of national Socialism in Germany until 2,020,

165
00:31:12.830 --> 00:31:31.000
Sarah Könecke: and this brings us to our empirical case we will show what is remembered and the different generations against the background of persistent social stigmatization. When there is a history of both persecution and perpetuation in one family in the Nazi period.

166
00:31:33.100 --> 00:31:34.350
Sarah Könecke: Okay? So

167
00:31:34.529 --> 00:31:35.200
Sarah Könecke: you

168
00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:56.389
Sarah Könecke: yeah. Here. you can see the back of family in the back of family. We interviewed descendants of power, Bagger, who was categorized, persecuted, and murdered as a so called a social, and we talked to family members from 3 generations, and they are outlined here in green as you can see.

169
00:31:56.530 --> 00:32:03.610
And Paul Berger, a laborer, came from a family that can be located in a sacrile in milieu.

170
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:17.889
Sarah Könecke: and he married Augusta, and they had 2 children. After his return, as a presumably traumatized soldier from the First World War the family was unable to reconnect with the familiar order.

171
00:32:18.470 --> 00:32:28.289
Sarah Könecke: and within the family the story has been passed down that Paulberg was absent, and in 1,925 Powell and Augusta Verde was

172
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:40.750
Sarah Könecke: their son. Herman became a member of the National Socialist German Workers Party, the Nsd. Ap. And it's paramilitary fighting organization. The storm of Tyler, S. A

173
00:32:40.760 --> 00:32:45.460
Sarah Könecke: as early as 1,929

174
00:32:46.110 --> 00:32:51.039
Sarah Könecke: and 19, and or in the 1930 s. He then married his wife Clara.

175
00:32:52.080 --> 00:33:01.389
Sarah Könecke: while Hamburger was a soldier in the mammoth. Throughout the whole war his faza Porrhagar became a target of the Nazi persecution policy.

176
00:33:01.750 --> 00:33:04.800
Sarah Könecke: When he was arrested in 1942

177
00:33:05.320 --> 00:33:21.610
Sarah Könecke: various previous convictions for bagging, homelessness and fraud were noted in his files with prison sentences and fines. and we were able to reconstruct from the files that power. Bagga lived in poor conditions and moved around a lot.

178
00:33:21.890 --> 00:33:23.870
Sarah Könecke: performing different jobs.

179
00:33:24.070 --> 00:33:32.439
Sarah Könecke: After serving a prison sentence he was transferred to in Concentration Camp in 1,944, and there he was murdered. A year later

180
00:33:33.770 --> 00:33:42.049
Sarah Könecke: the family constellation described here, in which we can find both a Nazi perpetrator and a Nazi victim is not an exceptional case

181
00:33:42.130 --> 00:34:01.489
Sarah Könecke: we find it frequently in our sample, and this is not accidental. in addition to the high number of Nazi perpetrators and convinced National Socialists and German families. It points to the Ns. As a space of possibility for social advancement from precarious living conditions

182
00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:14.990
Sarah Könecke: from which those persecuted as a social and telephone often come. On the basis of the cases of Harvard, Tim, and Mattenberga. We will now present the family memory of persecution.

183
00:34:15.520 --> 00:34:32.020
Sarah Könecke: And to begin with, we may find out that Nazi family history is the politicized, and history of persecution is remembered in a and individualized way. And this is the central structure of the family memory.

184
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:34.430
Sarah Könecke: Hmm.

185
00:34:35.930 --> 00:34:53.580
Sarah Könecke: yeah. First we come to the grandchildren generation and the grandchildren generation of the persecuted man, which is at the same time the child generation of the perpetrator. The involvement in the of the family in the and S is depoliticized, and the prosecution is deemed

186
00:34:54.300 --> 00:35:03.200
Sarah Könecke:  no, and hav at Bag I. Born in 1,939 experienced World War Ii. As a small child

187
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:11.099
Sarah Könecke: in the interview, how I bag I primarily presents the family suffering during the war, completely ignoring the holocaust

188
00:35:12.650 --> 00:35:37.009
Sarah Könecke: silence, and bands on asking questions, were part of his early socialization. during national Socialism, his father's concrete actions as a soldier when not allowed to be discussed, and certainly not the persecution of his paternal grandfather as an so called a social which not only men's stigmatization, but could also be completely threatening. In this time.

189
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:49.950
Sarah Könecke: after 1945, the prohibitions on questioning, intensified and changed. His father's involvement in the perpetuation of Nazi. Crimes now had to be completely defymatized.

190
00:35:49.990 --> 00:36:06.789
Sarah Könecke: and the grandfather's history of persecution could not be discussed in the family, either because to address it would have meant that the Nazi perpetration would also have to be spoken of. In addition, this, not the victim group continued to be stigmatized.

191
00:36:08.350 --> 00:36:12.120
Sarah Könecke:  hmm.

192
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:21.100
Sarah Könecke: no, it's not about here it is. I have a dagger marriage in which I also experience the war as a small child.

193
00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:34.589
Sarah Könecke: Her father had also been a soldier and an In as they are a member, and in the dialogue between England and her at Berger. The main theme is their suffering under the war and the allied troops.

194
00:36:34.670 --> 00:36:52.189
Sarah Könecke: the holocaust and the persecution of Paul Berger are left out of the discussion, and a trivializing perspective on the Nazi era dominates the memory of him, and Bag, as a simple soldier and youthful and naive, but a political supporter of the regime prevails here.

195
00:36:52.570 --> 00:36:57.990
Sarah Könecke: This form of involvement in the Nazi regime, legitimized by post-part discourses.

196
00:36:58.010 --> 00:37:06.580
Sarah Könecke: can be thematized and is integrated into the family memory. The persecution of the grandfather, on the other hand, is not included

197
00:37:07.190 --> 00:37:16.529
Sarah Könecke: overall. The grandchildren's memories of their persecuted grandfather are characterized by defymatization, length, spaces, and disdain.

198
00:37:16.890 --> 00:37:29.849
Sarah Könecke: It is not remembered that the grandfather was a soldier in the First World War, nor his possible suffering during the First World War, and in the time after No and a Nazi persecution.

199
00:37:31.860 --> 00:37:47.029
Sarah Könecke: Hmm. In this generation his social positioning as a way Grant and his absence from the family is remembered. This, associated with the thought structure is passed on in the following generation and is not critically it questioned.

200
00:37:47.460 --> 00:38:00.219
Sarah Könecke: It is further articulated and even reinforced. This becomes clear when he is remembered, and the grandchild generation only as a vagrant, and in the great grandchild generation as a bum.

201
00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:13.819
Sarah Könecke: And we can say that the familiar and social constellation in the grandchild generation of the Burger family needs to be thematization of both the concrete experiences of persecution and the resulting suffering.

202
00:38:13.830 --> 00:38:25.740
Sarah Könecke: and this is interrelated with the fact that the active involvement of family members and national Socialism is depoliticized and that possible perpetration of crimes is planned out.

203
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:30.050
Miriam Schäfer: Yeah. So it's my turn.

204
00:38:30.160 --> 00:38:43.170
Miriam Schäfer: yeah, this brings us to the grand, great great-grandchild generation of the persecuted person which is at the same time the cramped child, the Crunchite generation of the Nazi perpetrators.

205
00:38:43.950 --> 00:38:53.730
Miriam Schäfer: In this generation we see an interest in family history. At the same time the family history is not integrated in their biographies.

206
00:38:53.870 --> 00:39:00.069
Miriam Schäfer: neither on the level of the experiences, nor on the level of biographical thematization.

207
00:39:01.120 --> 00:39:14.909
Miriam Schäfer: England, and how I. I had 2 sons, Martin and Tim, as great grandchildren. They are also confronted with a ban on, on, on asking questions, or talking about Nazi crimes and persecution.

208
00:39:14.910 --> 00:39:38.530
Miriam Schäfer: The family history of their mother in England is dominant in this generation, and it's socially legitimized. Ingrid's father is classified as a mid-loyifer, meaning a sympathizer and nominal member of the party. So his involvement in nazi activities can be exonerated and conveyed to this generation in a less problematic way.

209
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:46.310
Miriam Schäfer: In addition, Ingrid comes from a more established family whose story can be told for several generations.

210
00:39:47.660 --> 00:39:56.800
Miriam Schäfer: The family history, on their far side by contrast, is evidently fragile, and kavas only a restricted period of time.

211
00:39:56.920 --> 00:40:08.870
Miriam Schäfer: This means that it can only be told up to the divorce of their great grandparents. So Paul and his wife, if they are to avoid addressing the issue of Nazi persecution.

212
00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:15.409
Miriam Schäfer: the persecuted great-grandfather disappears from the family history narrative

213
00:40:16.130 --> 00:40:29.960
Miriam Schäfer: to to the intergenerational ban. On speaking and asking questions, they know hardly anything about their great grandfather. The same applies to their grandfather and his potential involvement as a perpetrator.

214
00:40:30.390 --> 00:40:37.950
Miriam Schäfer: So this leads this generation to wonder whether their own father might know more than he tells them.

215
00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:48.659
Miriam Schäfer: We see this question and this not knowing, as one reason why archival research on the family history begins in the great branch right generation

216
00:40:49.570 --> 00:40:54.970
Miriam Schäfer: from Nazi fires, they can learn more about their grandfather and great grandfather.

217
00:40:56.250 --> 00:41:19.290
Miriam Schäfer: The fact that the great branches and present the history of prosecution and the family history separately in the biographical self presentation points to the fact that this knowledge has so far been kept away from the family history, and thus not had been integrated into their perspective of how they became what they are.

218
00:41:19.340 --> 00:41:23.410
Miriam Schäfer: The history of persecution is split off from the

219
00:41:23.520 --> 00:41:26.040
Miriam Schäfer: family history. In this generation.

220
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:33.490
Miriam Schäfer: In this generation, however, it can be seen that the family history is processed differently

221
00:41:33.560 --> 00:41:53.390
Miriam Schäfer: to to the different relationships of Martin and timber to their grandfather. The different positions in a familiar figuration, and their personal biographical resources, they are turning towards the family. History is different differently. They are asked themselves different questions.

222
00:41:53.740 --> 00:41:57.349
Miriam Schäfer: So the other son, Martin.

223
00:41:58.520 --> 00:42:17.830
Miriam Schäfer: and what I immediately thought was, How is that possible? Yeah, how can my grandfather get through his life without having to talk about it without having to draw any consequences from it. I didn't understand that at all. I don't understand it. I have no idea. Yes, it's crazy, isn't it.

224
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:21.930
Miriam Schäfer: to be one of those for his father. That's crazy

225
00:42:23.540 --> 00:42:31.250
Miriam Schäfer: for Martin Barga, distancing himself from his family and his own social advancement, is a biographical theme.

226
00:42:31.640 --> 00:42:45.799
Miriam Schäfer: His complex outside, a position within the family enables him to adopt this more critical position in respect of his grandfather. He sees him as a perpetrator more clearly than anyone else in the family.

227
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:53.310
Miriam Schäfer: so the other. Some. Tim has a different question. He asks himself.

228
00:42:54.270 --> 00:43:09.020
Miriam Schäfer: but what still irritates me is that, on the one hand, you have a father who is a bum and a pity criminal, and then your so you yourself are in a Sr. Organization. That is all about discipline and order.

229
00:43:10.640 --> 00:43:18.940
Miriam Schäfer: So by one brother addresses the issue of perpetration. Pierre wonders about her Herodarity biological trades.

230
00:43:19.090 --> 00:43:27.899
Miriam Schäfer: Tim Berger presents the persecution a self-inflicted and individualized and shows disdain for his great-grandfather

231
00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:42.900
Miriam Schäfer: his grandfather, on the other hand, is appreciated because he managed not to become a bound despite his origins. This is related to the fact that this is the also delegated to him. To Timberga.

232
00:43:42.990 --> 00:43:50.730
Miriam Schäfer: leading an orderly life which is socially expected of upper middle class families, is his biographical team.

233
00:43:52.250 --> 00:44:08.390
Miriam Schäfer: So these 2 different questions must be seen in the context of the brother's respective family position and biographical resources. In addition to this, however, their experiences with their grandfather are also crucial.

234
00:44:08.680 --> 00:44:19.139
Miriam Schäfer: Martin Berger remembers his grandfather's war hero stories, but, on the other hand, he recalls feelings ranging from an East to physical fear.

235
00:44:19.670 --> 00:44:31.949
Miriam Schäfer: By contrast. Timberga remembers his grandfather positively and with pride, and he does not question him. Despite the knowledge of his Nazi involvement he has gained from his research.

236
00:44:33.810 --> 00:44:37.720
Miriam Schäfer: So this brings us to a brief conclusion.

237
00:44:38.710 --> 00:44:48.109
Miriam Schäfer: The case of the bag of family shows that the memory of persecution is constructed when Nazi perpetrators.

238
00:44:48.370 --> 00:44:57.739
so how the memory of persecution is constructed. When Nazi perpetrators and stigmatized Nazi victims Co. Exist in one family.

239
00:44:58.080 --> 00:45:10.120
Miriam Schäfer: Our study shows how family member memories of the persecution continues also racist patterns of interpretation, and how the persecution is marginalized. At the same time.

240
00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:32.179
Miriam Schäfer: an important finding is that those persecuted as a social and as criminal are not remembered as part of the Nazi victim collective, nor do they become part of the family historiography in their own families when the family's Nazi past has to be downplayed and denied.

241
00:45:32.850 --> 00:45:47.059
Miriam Schäfer: It also becomes clear that the social construction of a sociality and a decades long socially tabooing and stigmatizing of these Nazi victims have stronger effect than the denial of the Nazi past.

242
00:45:48.620 --> 00:46:02.419
Miriam Schäfer: The fact that these victims are not remembered as part of the Nazi victim collective, and the family is also a result of the way the history of persecution is blank out in the national memory.

243
00:46:02.570 --> 00:46:16.369
Miriam Schäfer: They had no access to survivor associations that that developed count collective counter memories, and which would have been made it possible for their descendants to turn to the history of persecution.

244
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:33.149
Miriam Schäfer: However, it is also evident that the biographical resources of the generations born after them, and a familiar figuration have an influence on memories of persecution and crimes perpetrated by the Nazis.

245
00:46:34.980 --> 00:46:36.150
Miriam Schäfer: Thanks a lot.

246
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:52.769
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Yeah, thank you very much for your presentation. Me? And so, Sarah, yeah, we have time for comments, questions. a couple of minutes.

247
00:46:53.240 --> 00:46:55.409
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: be honest, maybe.

248
00:46:56.450 --> 00:47:01.530
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Yeah. Maybe if we take for some questions from the room on site.

249
00:47:06.470 --> 00:47:11.660
Hi, Maria. it's it's ash asking the question I wanted to ask if

250
00:47:11.780 --> 00:47:16.770
You could expand a little bit more on why, you think it is the grandchildren?

251
00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:23.110
Why, you think it is that generation of the grandchildren who end up being the ones to do the family research.

252
00:47:23.570 --> 00:47:26.489
You mentioned it a little bit if we could hear it more on that.

253
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:31.840
Miriam Schäfer: It's the great grandchildren generation.

254
00:47:32.540 --> 00:47:36.200
Miriam Schäfer:  I guess it's

255
00:47:37.020 --> 00:47:48.029
Miriam Schäfer: so. The grandchildren generation is more involved in this Nazi family past. So it's like they were born in the Second World war.

256
00:47:48.170 --> 00:47:49.240
Miriam Schäfer: and

257
00:47:49.450 --> 00:48:00.039
Miriam Schäfer: it's also the involvement of the father. So like You remember him and was involved, and his son

258
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:13.069
Miriam Schäfer: was born in the war. So they had, so their issue is more like their own suffering. and the great grandchild generation they

259
00:48:13.380 --> 00:48:20.060
Miriam Schäfer: alright. They are not sure what their parents tell them and what they don't tell. So

260
00:48:20.330 --> 00:48:24.160
Miriam Schäfer: what they do is archive a research. So that's

261
00:48:24.610 --> 00:48:28.400
Miriam Schäfer: would be the short answer, I don't know.

262
00:48:29.290 --> 00:48:44.120
Sarah Könecke: Yeah. So like Timberger, try to yeah, get some archival information about his grandfather. And in this way he only find out about the persecution, though this was like a kind of surprise for him to

263
00:48:44.120 --> 00:49:07.089
Sarah Könecke: and around this surprise he started to. yeah. Think a little bit more about this great grandfather and this. Ha! How it's yeah. Became a topping in within the family, and also for us to. Yeah, get the interview with them. And because then he like, yeah, there was. There was a contact.

264
00:49:07.230 --> 00:49:19.300
Sarah Könecke: to to Tim barrier in this case. And so we get the yeah, the way to the family, and this is like it happened as a kind of a surprise. to get the notion about the persecution.

265
00:49:23.510 --> 00:49:27.100
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: That's another question, I see.

266
00:49:30.530 --> 00:49:45.000
yes, thank you very much from these presentations. They're really good. I I just wanted to ask you, at least in my experience. about these issues of the memories of family members who participated in atrocities.

267
00:49:45.060 --> 00:50:07.830
In my experience. I I have German friends with whom I was capable to talk about these things, and they were capable to say, yes, my grandfather was a Nazi, and grandmother was a Communist, and this is how they got married, and they tell the story. I'm sure it's not completely, historically accurate, and there is elements of family history and everything else. But there is a level of honesty

268
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:31.959
about telling these stories, which are obviously extremely unpleasant to tell, but preparedness to talk about them, which I have to say I'm from Eastern Europe. I cannot remember anybody saying, yes, my grandfather was a Communist, and did horrible things, or anything like that. I I don't know any Australian who said yes, my great-grandparents were settlers, and they did horrible things to the aboriginal people. I mean, why is it that in Germany

269
00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:42.550
I'm sure there are a lot of people who have all kinds of amnesia in Germany as well, and wonderful stories. No, no, it wasn't us, and so on. I mean, I was in the kitchen. But the point is.

270
00:50:42.550 --> 00:50:54.399
why is it that in Germany there is a certain culture of memory about these things at the individual level, about how people can talk about these things which, at least in my experience, are extremely unusual in other societies. Thank you.

271
00:50:59.790 --> 00:51:13.589
Sarah Könecke:  Do you like to start? Yes. I think. yeah, I would say, you, you're right. So it is. that yeah, there, there is this kind of memorial or this

272
00:51:14.180 --> 00:51:31.089
Sarah Könecke: remembering. And also there's that it? It's maybe not a supernormal to talk about the perpetrators in the family. But I think what we' what we wanted to show was that also the speaking of the the Nazi victims within the family is

273
00:51:31.150 --> 00:52:01.089
Sarah Könecke: is, is, is is. It's harder when you have, like these Nazi perpetration also in the family, and that you have the problem that you cannot talk about the victims when you on on the other hand, have to talk about the perpetration, and this is like, this hinders the remembering of the stigmatized and victims, and within the family. So I think this was like something we find out, and

274
00:52:01.140 --> 00:52:23.419
Sarah Könecke: which is near to the fact that this victim group is still stigmatized and The people who were persecuted were stigmatized after 95 is a big hindrance. to yeah, for the family memory to have a like a positive way of talking, maybe about their ancestors.

275
00:52:28.140 --> 00:52:31.190
Miriam Schäfer: and maybe in general, like it's

276
00:52:32.200 --> 00:52:43.429
Miriam Schäfer: It's common that you can can or have to talk about like the involvement in the German society, but not like the whole involvement like. It's

277
00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:50.280
Miriam Schäfer: no problem to say that your grandfather or great grandfather, was a soldier in the

278
00:52:50.710 --> 00:53:11.889
Miriam Schäfer: more or less unproblematic, I would say. they are not talking about like what they really did like. They period like what they did as a soldier like the violence hard, like what they did, and also what they. It's more about their suffering like, yeah, So maybe this is

279
00:53:13.570 --> 00:53:25.339
Miriam Schäfer: And they also in the families we interview. They don't talk about this part of like they talk about the suffering and not about the actions as soldiers.

280
00:53:27.450 --> 00:53:28.210
Miriam Schäfer: Yeah.

281
00:53:28.610 --> 00:53:35.490
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Okay. thank you. We have. we have question here in the zoom room. Think about, please.

282
00:53:36.100 --> 00:53:54.519
Tinka Schubert: And the short answer, yeah, it's a very short question, because you just mentioned that it's very hard to acknowledge that when you are, when you have a perpetrator and the victim and and the same family. Is it very different when you don't have the perpetrator? Then these victims acknowledged more.

283
00:53:56.930 --> 00:54:16.240
Miriam Schäfer: Do you have any information on that? Any stay short. Okay? So it's a big question. But I really have to think about, because I'm not sure if we have a family of these categories where it's where we don't have this perpetration and

284
00:54:17.460 --> 00:54:23.110
Miriam Schäfer: perpetrators and victims. Yeah. So I cannot give a short answer to it. Sorry.

285
00:54:24.770 --> 00:54:32.200
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Okay, yeah. Maybe there's some time after the session to talk about this, but not not

286
00:54:32.330 --> 00:54:49.840
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: in presence. That's the problem here with the online setting. And he breaks setting. Okay, so thank you very much for the presentation. I wouldn't like to go on and Our next presenter is here. Schmidt. I hope I pronounced it

287
00:54:50.180 --> 00:55:16.869
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: so how the right way? she is a social scientist and currently works at the and her main interest is on childhood and memory and particular. She focus on exile during the last military dictatorship in Auguay. And and yeah, I'm looking forward to your presentation.

288
00:55:17.910 --> 00:55:24.190
Fira Chmiel: Okay, thank you very much. I will share my screen. And

289
00:55:28.310 --> 00:55:32.189
Fira Chmiel: yes, This is my first, a

290
00:55:32.210 --> 00:55:43.810
Fira Chmiel: a presentation in English. So I am a I am very thankful, and I am very, very thank you for your patience in advance.

291
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:54.790
Fira Chmiel: But well, I will start It's cause a place in which to put the story. You will see the this in the examples.

292
00:55:55.070 --> 00:55:57.869
Fira Chmiel: And first of all.

293
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:06.350
Fira Chmiel: I would like to introduce. It was.

294
00:56:07.570 --> 00:56:13.530
Fira Chmiel: I would like to introduce some information about the social historical context.

295
00:56:13.620 --> 00:56:19.330
Fira Chmiel:  of exile, and in

296
00:56:19.630 --> 00:56:21.580
Fira Chmiel: in Europe and Argentina

297
00:56:22.620 --> 00:56:23.630
Fira Chmiel: and

298
00:56:24.790 --> 00:56:29.120
Fira Chmiel: I will advance because of the time is a

299
00:56:29.160 --> 00:56:38.399
Fira Chmiel: I try to do some, Senses of the reflection of the development on the generation and dimension of memory.

300
00:56:38.680 --> 00:56:42.810
Fira Chmiel: and I will try to go on. Yes.

301
00:56:42.980 --> 00:57:00.419
Fira Chmiel: and this a presentation is a part of a work in my thesis, Dr. Art. This is a that, this with childhood memories of a particular experience in the politics outside during during the last dictatorship.

302
00:57:01.300 --> 00:57:17.100
Fira Chmiel: and, like that, is a historian, and points out the exact form, part of a complex, repressive metrics made up of executions, mass arrest, kidnappings followed by charge around that

303
00:57:17.420 --> 00:57:29.280
Fira Chmiel: a first disappearance and appropriations of children by these regions. While all these crimes took place in each country with their own singularities.

304
00:57:29.300 --> 00:57:50.300
Fira Chmiel: you're white and Argentina, and also then the in memorial process, and justice also.  They were coordinated by a regional strategy organized, but the intelligence and security services, and it was called the gondol plan

305
00:57:51.060 --> 00:58:12.870
Fira Chmiel: exile. In many cases was it the way to avoid more tragic outcomes which, as they out to points and points out does not reduce it's impact. As a painful experience. It was means of a silencing or repressing those who are opposed. The dictatorial region.

306
00:58:12.910 --> 00:58:28.599
Fira Chmiel: This phenomenon A had at the same time a particular features, links to the silencing of their experiences. Even with the advent of the democratic democracy and the opening of the possibilities of return, one

307
00:58:29.020 --> 00:58:47.820
Fira Chmiel: mit Ctl. And due the stigmas promoted by the military government, governments, by the press, by the effects of the blame and tensions between those who managed to survive in the countries and those who managed to go into into exile. The suspicious regarding their status as subversive. 150,

308
00:58:47.820 --> 00:59:00.950
Fira Chmiel: and even due to it, to the continuous active actions of the security forces or the lack of legal structures to protect the adults and the children of the exile.

309
00:59:01.890 --> 00:59:06.670
Fira Chmiel: Exile emerges an issue in a public arena more belately.

310
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:20.139
Fira Chmiel: and due to the urgency of establishing the through and the justice with regards to what happened to those who continue also to be disappeared.

311
00:59:20.380 --> 00:59:26.960
Fira Chmiel: It appears, be lately as a part of the parading of a state, a violence.

312
00:59:28.060 --> 00:59:29.600
Fira Chmiel: and well

313
00:59:29.610 --> 00:59:48.839
Fira Chmiel: in this paper I will return to the interviews that are prepared for my doctor at thesis, and there are a 54 interviews who those who were a school age children, and during the dictatorship, and who were born or raised in exile

314
00:59:49.400 --> 01:00:10.339
Fira Chmiel: erez agmoni. In this occasion I will try to offer you a preview of a work in progress, and that recovers evidence of comparative gaze between Argentina and Nuwaii propos at the beginning of the doctor at project, in the course of the project the gates was discarded, due to preponderance of children's experience, 150

315
01:00:10.340 --> 01:00:20.520
Fira Chmiel: mit. Ctl. And and it's analytical theft. Respect the corporation as the backbone backbone of the work. One.

316
01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:39.869
Fira Chmiel: however, a concern about the contrast, remain, and it is the most silent thing I identify where the similarities and differences, With respect to the social narratives that were recovered.

317
01:00:40.160 --> 01:00:53.279
Fira Chmiel: and for the biographical account itself. From this starting point I am interested in recovering and contrasting the social narratives that are mentioned in a biographical account

318
01:00:53.450 --> 01:01:05.139
Fira Chmiel: which have been at some point in the biographies, support for the constitution of their own narratives about their own experiences.

319
01:01:06.390 --> 01:01:13.850
Fira Chmiel: This is, and as theoretical underpinnings. I think it here 2 notions.

320
01:01:13.850 --> 01:01:37.770
Fira Chmiel: the vacuums, discursive voices, and polyphony and recursive narrative identity, both notions of very risk of recovered by the notar output that it's a culture study in. And it was a culture study. And in investigator, it work. Yeah, this and reaches

321
01:01:37.780 --> 01:02:02.139
Fira Chmiel: thinking about the space and narrative of biographical. I would try to function here as tools for thinking about those social narratives which, For those a interview produce an echo in our in their own but biographical accounts of exile, experience of childhood, and offer them support for structuring them.

322
01:02:03.120 --> 01:02:04.010
Fira Chmiel: So

323
01:02:04.430 --> 01:02:20.220
Fira Chmiel: I found a 5, a social narrative that I didn't. I identified in like preponderance in in their own, in narratives, biographical.

324
01:02:20.310 --> 01:02:31.459
Fira Chmiel: and the first narrative from the psychosocial world. a second culture products of their 10 adults, their parents, for example.

325
01:02:31.640 --> 01:02:37.250
Fira Chmiel: the third, the cultural productions of children at that time. and

326
01:02:37.310 --> 01:02:46.259
Fira Chmiel: Mit Ctl and the forward, a political narrative, and the the last one a children's group, a political aggregations, narratives, 250,

327
01:02:48.250 --> 01:02:52.820
Fira Chmiel: the first the native of the psychosocial world.

328
01:02:52.880 --> 01:03:22.739
Fira Chmiel: and on one hand the introduction of the voices of the world through the experience of searching for a psychologist psychosocial space to process a singular level elaboration of history. This aspect is underlined by the obstacle or the need for the working space to be frame, but by the same, a political conditioning factors that shapes the experience of excite. It is a questions of the need, 150

329
01:03:22.740 --> 01:03:43.739
Fira Chmiel: to find the ancestor in it. These narratives, without the political stripping away, which allows the excite experience to be elaborated sometimes by own tones. For example, Carmen, from your wife, that says I was a left this person, and they told me, but it

330
01:03:43.860 --> 01:03:48.600
Fira Chmiel: that's terrible! And to choose a therapist was already conditioning.

331
01:03:48.930 --> 01:04:01.089
Fira Chmiel: I didn't know how to explain, but I knew that I need a no, I. What I needed was to exercise. I needed to talk. Someone wanted to. So me from the political position, maybe.

332
01:04:01.480 --> 01:04:05.560
Fira Chmiel: and sometimes was because of a family condition.

333
01:04:06.050 --> 01:04:25.390
Fira Chmiel: And there was another thing your parents told you. You can't go to psychologists to tell him. Oh, God! Well, I can't go to to therapy either because it is a not colleague, a a political colleague, a. You can tell him things.

334
01:04:27.160 --> 01:04:41.429
Fira Chmiel: and, on the other hand, it is a disciplinary field that has also produced books, material in which a reflection on their experiences and theories in a in this secret social field is developing 150

335
01:04:41.670 --> 01:04:54.720
Fira Chmiel: mit. Ctl. And these productions have been narrative recovered by the children at that time as turning points in terms of discourse, they rely on, put their stories into words. 2,

336
01:04:56.220 --> 01:04:57.610
Fira Chmiel: for example.

337
01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:11.319
Fira Chmiel: Clara, from Argentina, says that she bought some books because in Chile, chile has developed a lot more from psychology, community psychology. They had a lot of books, 150

338
01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:19.910
Fira Chmiel: that would help me to understand that the things that happened to me were not mine. There were not mine alone, so to speak.

339
01:05:20.110 --> 01:05:39.669
Fira Chmiel: and that were something bigger, that that well, that wasn't deal with or couldn't deal with it. But I have been part of something bigger, because in this situation, where you can find a place to put your story.

340
01:05:40.540 --> 01:05:44.759
Fira Chmiel: And this is also on the line.

341
01:05:45.050 --> 01:05:46.240
Fira Chmiel: Let's see.

342
01:05:46.350 --> 01:06:02.949
Fira Chmiel: as I was saying, I had through that the time that we're we were among the unlucky ones, the luckiest ones without disappearances with that church, and therefore no, we were taken by a country that it was flourished democratically.

343
01:06:02.980 --> 01:06:06.750
Fira Chmiel: He! He! We! In Venezuela in that time.

344
01:06:07.540 --> 01:06:13.279
Fira Chmiel: and after reading this book he shows me a book of a psychology group

345
01:06:13.300 --> 01:06:41.649
Fira Chmiel: and about the dictatorship and some chapters, I keep thinking that maybe maybe it wasn't as much as it. It's very difficult to think about these things, because justice, if thought about on a social level, not individual one. So on an individual level, everybody, everybody use their own difference, defense, mechanism, and their own ways to dealing with the conference.

346
01:06:44.300 --> 01:06:50.200
Fira Chmiel: the second one. It's the cultural product of the then

347
01:06:50.610 --> 01:07:12.760
Fira Chmiel: there are those who recover social narratives that emerge from the stories produced by the adults to testify to narrate their story. In some cases this is a role of a first party as an intermediary key for the others of the time, in order to be able to narrate in some way the events that have lived through.

348
01:07:12.790 --> 01:07:16.639
Fira Chmiel: Just is the case of Rodriguez

349
01:07:17.050 --> 01:07:27.430
Fira Chmiel: when I was a kid, I would say it was a memory of a soap opera. Let's say he was an impression for a crime he didn't commit

350
01:07:27.700 --> 01:07:29.300
Fira Chmiel: that. That

351
01:07:29.330 --> 01:07:47.049
Fira Chmiel: that was all I know knew about my dad many years later. In fact, recently, my dad got together with his Christian mates. They wrote a book, and that's where I found, let's say, about his experience increases, and it's going also.

352
01:07:47.220 --> 01:08:04.960
Fira Chmiel: He, man at Tox, is about a from you. I never wanted to go deeper, but once my father called me and my sister to Avar and to us. He wanted to tell us something that he wanted us to overcome that he has written, he had reasonable.

353
01:08:06.110 --> 01:08:27.910
Fira Chmiel: and also it. There are a also who who who mentions other cultural productions, a. We which they have been called upon, Both to locate the history of their families and their own, even as a part of education, of parents to children within the home, as well as a warning of

354
01:08:28.120 --> 01:08:36.300
Fira Chmiel: can be seen as an educating thing of children to parents like a Pedro.

355
01:08:36.460 --> 01:08:50.480
Fira Chmiel: we were made to what state of teach, and and all of them we were kids. Yes, we were very stimulated, I remember I saw

356
01:08:50.930 --> 01:08:53.990
Fira Chmiel: it is the night of the

357
01:08:54.030 --> 01:09:02.769
Fira Chmiel: Spanish, and I told my old man, don't watch that film, and he saw it recently he was in pieces.

358
01:09:02.820 --> 01:09:19.069
Fira Chmiel: I had warned him. It's not worth it. It is our it. There are films that are worth it because you make feel good. But it's it. This is suffering. It's like bread crumbs. It's another film from here about the dictatorship.

359
01:09:19.510 --> 01:09:30.069
Fira Chmiel: Can may I interrupt you? You? You have 5 min left. Okay? Okay.

360
01:09:30.260 --> 01:09:32.550
Fira Chmiel: this, the first one.

361
01:09:32.790 --> 01:09:38.699
Fira Chmiel: It's the references of a cultural productions of the children of that time.

362
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:51.290
Fira Chmiel: I will show you some, some, a little bit of of the interviews. For example, Gonzalo, tell me, when the interview began. as I was telling you.

363
01:09:51.380 --> 01:09:56.230
Fira Chmiel: He he! He told me about the film, a clandestine childhood

364
01:09:56.520 --> 01:10:11.489
Fira Chmiel: erez agmoni. As I was telling you the film that one I name you. The whole exile was with another identity. So, on the one hand, I had another surname, and he told me the same as the 101

365
01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:33.549
Fira Chmiel: the the the narrative of the film, and and Clara also. It talks about the film, the nursery, that she is a documentary, that she rings the there in her testimony, and gives the possibility, she says, to to talk with the friends and family, and and

366
01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:37.489
Fira Chmiel: have a place to place her discourse both

367
01:10:39.580 --> 01:10:55.659
Fira Chmiel: in case of the your lion is a that I interview. They talk about documentary that calls to party what we're on. Your your parents will will come, and that was a very

368
01:10:55.720 --> 01:11:01.450
Fira Chmiel: a controversy about this. The public

369
01:11:02.540 --> 01:11:06.900
Fira Chmiel: well, but it was very, a very

370
01:11:07.010 --> 01:11:10.019
Fira Chmiel: mentioned in the

371
01:11:10.160 --> 01:11:11.189
Fira Chmiel: I would like to

372
01:11:11.200 --> 01:11:17.680
Fira Chmiel: to this political narrative that I found a differences between the ones who

373
01:11:17.780 --> 01:11:25.999
Fira Chmiel: have their origins in Uruguay, and then the ones who has their origins in Argentine.

374
01:11:26.980 --> 01:11:52.360
Fira Chmiel: in case of the You Ryan origins. The narrative that refers to political process related to elaboration of the recent part, the past to the search of truth and justice are taking up again to underline their in sufficiency and their lack of answers regarding the possibilities to create, not only to know what happened, to judge

375
01:11:52.360 --> 01:11:59.350
Fira Chmiel: those who were responsible, but also to find a collective place where personal history can be place.

376
01:11:59.430 --> 01:12:16.400
Fira Chmiel: And there there are some examples in in the work, for example, of Margarita, and in your while. And also it happens that when I was doing an interview with the Marcelo.

377
01:12:16.720 --> 01:12:27.250
Fira Chmiel: it appears a Federal library. That is a. It was a Senate Senator in your Y, but it is the sum of A

378
01:12:27.410 --> 01:12:34.199
Fira Chmiel: and the one who preceded over the copy, the that in the Eur one.

379
01:12:34.210 --> 01:12:43.669
Fira Chmiel: He's the son of him, and he was very acclaimedly participate, and defended his father in the church, a process.

380
01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:44.580
Fira Chmiel: you know.

381
01:12:44.750 --> 01:12:49.760
Fira Chmiel: So he said, that in your why,

382
01:12:49.790 --> 01:12:54.350
Fira Chmiel: maybe there is people that just don't have the finest idea of

383
01:12:54.400 --> 01:13:06.650
Fira Chmiel: who he who was he, and what a tiger in place his environment, when a what he can say or not to say who he, his father, was.

384
01:13:07.140 --> 01:13:09.919
Fira Chmiel: and a and so on

385
01:13:10.200 --> 01:13:11.850
Fira Chmiel: in a

386
01:13:12.420 --> 01:13:26.140
Fira Chmiel: ere

387
01:13:26.190 --> 01:13:35.230
Fira Chmiel: Clara says that she couldn't speak because of of in the obey of audience of

388
01:13:35.270 --> 01:13:38.809
Fira Chmiel: their parents, but because of security issues.

389
01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:48.279
Fira Chmiel:  People began to talk about the dictatorship about the participation. And all, after Nestor Kishnar peril

390
01:13:48.470 --> 01:13:51.209
Fira Chmiel: is so so publicly

391
01:13:53.800 --> 01:13:57.580
Fira Chmiel: and also there yourself the same, and

392
01:13:57.650 --> 01:14:02.700
Fira Chmiel: that he's it's discussed with his family about in the

393
01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:21.500
Fira Chmiel: the the reparation. No, he says, I was telling you that a worse controversy in my family about where or not to include them in relation to the possibility offered by the Kitchener Government to compensate, compensate those who were victims of dictatorship.

394
01:14:21.670 --> 01:14:29.439
Fira Chmiel: these possibilities open up, motivating his family how to consider themselves in history, and what position to take

395
01:14:29.540 --> 01:14:31.930
Fira Chmiel: in these respects.

396
01:14:33.210 --> 01:14:35.819
Fira Chmiel: So. and the last one.

397
01:14:36.130 --> 01:14:39.809
Fira Chmiel: and that I will will

398
01:14:40.020 --> 01:14:49.730
Fira Chmiel: finally it finished with it, she said Claudia of Argentina, and she says that a

399
01:14:50.100 --> 01:14:59.240
Fira Chmiel: these political movements that do it in this period of kernel, a government.

400
01:14:59.240 --> 01:15:20.569
Fira Chmiel: say I go out of the whole because she was in a person and bad situation. When my country recognized that it had heard me, and beyond the fact that they gave me money because they helped me a lot. I took choga course and cooking course I sent my son to the was missing.

401
01:15:20.570 --> 01:15:37.690
Fira Chmiel: I put my teeth back because my models have fallen out. I'm telling you certainly, seriously. I went to Argentina to see my brothers, and and I found that well, that my country recognized my parents militancy recognize that it hurts me. Recognize me as a person.

402
01:15:37.700 --> 01:15:44.400
Fira Chmiel: some part in of a place, and I'm a part of a Nova history.

403
01:15:45.350 --> 01:16:08.149
Fira Chmiel: And then it's also a. The children group narratives in case in Europe was a few references about this, because don't have a big movement of a children's group of sons and daughters that were involved in a affected by a the violence of dictatorship.

404
01:16:09.040 --> 01:16:20.300
Fira Chmiel: and also an Argentina. It says that there was a creation. There is a group of of sons and daughters of exile, that in.

405
01:16:20.460 --> 01:16:26.250
Fira Chmiel: for example, to Diego he and

406
01:16:26.360 --> 01:16:39.530
Fira Chmiel: Mit Ctl. And that the this aggregation active, contributes to elaborate, he a his history, and also without the help of psychological sex analysis, 150.

407
01:16:39.600 --> 01:17:08.959
Fira Chmiel: So I will show you some closing. So please come to me, maybe. Now, okay, well, we use biographies in this case to serve some narratives, Max, to allows us to think about the discourse that are possible to signify an experience of child will past. This is not studied off fact that experiences with a focus on analyzing what might makes up biographical accounts.

408
01:17:09.200 --> 01:17:24.989
Fira Chmiel: And there are social narrative that post populate that, Biographical accounts of both those who are ruined and Argentina, or region. From a comparative point of view, we can identify greater support and positive evaluations

409
01:17:24.990 --> 01:17:47.569
Fira Chmiel: of these political narratives. In the case of Argentina, as well as the presence of narratives, a groups that bring together a second generation, and exam. To the experiences of the past, presented and represented through a blog that is not a reflection of what was lead, and even more so when it comes to childhood

410
01:17:47.730 --> 01:17:55.929
Fira Chmiel: memories, a. Which, with their particularities, the 5 considerations of fidelity or evidence.

411
01:17:55.960 --> 01:17:59.879
Fira Chmiel: it is a subjective experience that it put

412
01:17:59.960 --> 01:18:16.839
Fira Chmiel: into a story which is not a mirror of it, it but is faithful to it because of the meaning it gives it. Alexis Alfred, meaning that it's produced in the ups and downs of biographies. But from a present time.

413
01:18:18.190 --> 01:18:20.530
Fira Chmiel: thank you very much for your patience.

414
01:18:20.870 --> 01:18:31.660
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Thank you very much for your presentation. Yeah, we have time for short question or comment, and the short answer.

415
01:18:32.570 --> 01:18:38.590
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: yeah. maybe there's a question in the room in Melbourne.

416
01:18:40.300 --> 01:18:43.119
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Thanks, Johannes.

417
01:18:50.440 --> 01:18:51.210
and

418
01:18:58.560 --> 01:19:02.289
thank you for the presentation. My name is so I'm from Chile.

419
01:19:02.480 --> 01:19:08.659
I would like if you could clarify. If I understand, correct your project.

420
01:19:08.720 --> 01:19:14.010
you're interviewing people who return to Uruguay or Argentina.

421
01:19:14.120 --> 01:19:24.400
 Are you considering interviewing people who have dual residents, or who stayed in other countries to see if their perceptions are different?

422
01:19:28.950 --> 01:19:52.530
Fira Chmiel: I? I can, I answer, and now yes, you can answer. Of course, I in my, in my thesis, in my work. I also interview those who are in leaving now. I don't, Outside the the country, and don't return to the or to Euro, or to Argentina.

423
01:19:52.720 --> 01:19:55.360
Fira Chmiel: And so

424
01:19:55.480 --> 01:20:10.559
Fira Chmiel: and I think that it's it's a it's a process, a from some, some a come every turn. But they go I a again to another country, so it it's very difficult to

425
01:20:10.630 --> 01:20:19.839
Fira Chmiel: establish a like strong a differences in the experiences because of that.

426
01:20:20.120 --> 01:20:25.579
Fira Chmiel: So I interview also, Those who weren't returned.

427
01:20:28.770 --> 01:20:32.430
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Yeah, thank you very much. I'm sorry that it's not much.

428
01:20:32.590 --> 01:20:41.679
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: no, no, sorry. I'm still tired now that we don't have a more time to for the discussion, but I want to

429
01:20:42.170 --> 01:20:58.099
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: keeping time, and give Lucas the chance also to go to them to do his presentation. Now, thank you. V, you know. yeah, I want to introduce. Lucas is an Ali He is a researcher also at the University of Gretting and in Germany.

430
01:20:58.100 --> 01:21:12.760
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: and he currently works in the project. individual and collective memories of slavery and the slave trade, a contrastive comparison of different communities, generations and groupings in Ghana and Percy one.

431
01:21:12.760 --> 01:21:30.520
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: And in his research. He is interested in a transgenerational transmission of experiences of violence and belongings, especially in the 8 areas of enslavement and migration. In the context of processes of collective violence. Okay? Because it's your floor.

432
01:21:33.210 --> 01:21:43.639
Lucas Cé Sangalli: I think someone needs to. I pre recorded it. So I think someone.

433
01:21:43.820 --> 01:21:48.039
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: yeah. But Lucas is here and what discussion

434
01:21:59.490 --> 01:22:02.969
in the following, I will present a critical data from my doctor.

435
01:22:03.280 --> 01:22:04.250
from the

436
01:22:05.540 --> 01:22:08.270
the contest of permanent companies

437
01:22:08.540 --> 01:22:14.520
in life history. So to do this in Germany focus on the results

438
01:22:14.580 --> 01:22:15.900
you work.

439
01:22:18.840 --> 01:22:19.919
Because of that.

440
01:22:19.990 --> 01:22:22.120
we turn to the

441
01:22:22.800 --> 01:22:25.860
introduced, and the inclusion of the interview is for

442
01:22:26.120 --> 01:22:30.660
interested in on the site.

443
01:22:31.990 --> 01:22:38.160
First, I will present the sample in the that we discussed true cases, that it's

444
01:22:38.700 --> 01:22:40.449
discussion on the

445
01:22:41.400 --> 01:22:44.810
experiences of physical violence and the

446
01:22:45.040 --> 01:22:45.870
you

447
01:22:46.150 --> 01:22:47.280
different generations.

448
01:22:47.500 --> 01:22:48.780
The

449
01:22:51.050 --> 01:22:53.679
I counted with 63 Youtube years, conducted

450
01:22:54.260 --> 01:22:56.230
modern system with this

451
01:22:56.460 --> 01:23:02.279
their descendants. If you in Germany and Jordan. the analysis of interviews show that

452
01:23:02.740 --> 01:23:03.579
there's nothing wrong

453
01:23:04.150 --> 01:23:05.660
to the.

454
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:09.010
and we long

455
01:23:09.180 --> 01:23:13.040
the first generation of migrants from Sudan. especially those on the

456
01:23:15.220 --> 01:23:16.770
the massive experiences of I

457
01:23:17.860 --> 01:23:20.810
regard as a conflict of now it.

458
01:23:21.060 --> 01:23:23.230
Okay. Your name is Bro.

459
01:23:23.820 --> 01:23:26.050
Comes to the 16,

460
01:23:28.400 --> 01:23:29.580
the presence.

461
01:23:29.730 --> 01:23:32.890
the simple. to the

462
01:23:33.350 --> 01:23:35.600
how far they were

463
01:23:36.070 --> 01:23:38.050
of the itself established

464
01:23:38.230 --> 01:23:39.240
or avoid

465
01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:40.260
the Commission

466
01:23:40.470 --> 01:23:47.590
used my first-generation migrants to look back into the conflicts is to them, while we're transmitted to their descent.

467
01:23:48.240 --> 01:23:52.170
To answer this question, encountered with 11 interviews.

468
01:23:52.350 --> 01:23:53.480
That's for

469
01:23:54.060 --> 01:23:55.060
you by

470
01:23:56.670 --> 01:24:04.539
today. I will focus on 2 family cases to demonstrate my results in my analysis by contrasting the coding family.

471
01:24:04.780 --> 01:24:08.430
The perspective of true male into here is born with Iraq.

472
01:24:09.390 --> 01:24:11.209
and while one of them

473
01:24:11.480 --> 01:24:15.560
from Jordan in the diaspora.

474
01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:20.749
focus on the components shaking their attitudes in the present.

475
01:24:21.770 --> 01:24:29.030
and how it is regard to the ancestors. and we

476
01:24:30.060 --> 01:24:30.970
what we

477
01:24:36.050 --> 01:24:51.040
I counted with interviews with 4 members of the I'm Barker, the younger son, interfered, his mother with his father and his sister in Hamas, to conducted one on an interview in several. Forward

478
01:24:52.180 --> 01:24:56.930
on the eyes of the soloist in Aman the Nazar family can be framed as an hour.

479
01:24:57.030 --> 01:24:59.710
and the

480
01:24:59.840 --> 01:25:10.910
which corresponds to the self image presented by they regard themselves and their families as our parent migrated centuries ago

481
01:25:10.950 --> 01:25:12.810
into presently.

482
01:25:12.830 --> 01:25:14.950
you know, and then against the

483
01:25:15.260 --> 01:25:19.540
like dispute, control 7. In the region of Sudan.

484
01:25:20.640 --> 01:25:24.449
It is rather than the

485
01:25:26.390 --> 01:25:27.260
your father.

486
01:25:27.850 --> 01:25:33.160
or in the garage to dine in a boosting family soon before the

487
01:25:33.500 --> 01:25:34.450
illustration.

488
01:25:35.020 --> 01:25:46.870
The modern was also born in a family that I'm from mud at his university studies in New Orleans. If you return to Sudan. and we

489
01:25:47.820 --> 01:25:52.769
1,989 who died, she had concluded high school.

490
01:25:52.790 --> 01:25:54.819
and they belong to the same ethnic group

491
01:25:57.260 --> 01:25:58.920
together. They need to

492
01:26:00.200 --> 01:26:06.080
give birth to their 3 children during the 1,900 ninetys against the

493
01:26:07.120 --> 01:26:08.250
war in the Gulf.

494
01:26:09.090 --> 01:26:12.719
From a period that is remembered by the elder generation of the

495
01:26:12.970 --> 01:26:14.620
from my.

496
01:26:15.090 --> 01:26:15.920
if I would.

497
01:26:16.670 --> 01:26:20.160
This was

498
01:26:21.940 --> 01:26:23.550
upon the presentation of

499
01:26:23.990 --> 01:26:24.740
1,003,

500
01:26:25.120 --> 01:26:25.880
the

501
01:26:28.270 --> 01:26:33.990
he said. for the children completed high school and the

502
01:26:35.610 --> 01:26:36.909
to hold their projects.

503
01:26:37.430 --> 01:26:40.450
The

504
01:26:41.110 --> 01:26:45.160
and currently this is for your I'm about to

505
01:26:45.420 --> 01:26:46.830
to be true.

506
01:26:47.370 --> 01:26:50.519
And with the help of his German.

507
01:26:54.690 --> 01:26:59.820
I'm the baker tells me that since his childhood, human as his mother had him as he puts living.

508
01:27:01.610 --> 01:27:05.560
he used these situations to ask her about the history of the family

509
01:27:05.570 --> 01:27:11.350
shaped our attractive experiences of physical collective violence, especially while it is more related.

510
01:27:12.910 --> 01:27:14.739
He summarises his

511
01:27:15.940 --> 01:27:16.950
to

512
01:27:17.650 --> 01:27:19.260
like his sister. You know

513
01:27:19.680 --> 01:27:23.550
the traditional experiences of racialized strategies.

514
01:27:24.320 --> 01:27:27.369
and his current perspective interprets them.

515
01:27:27.520 --> 01:27:29.049
based on the confrontation

516
01:27:29.430 --> 01:27:31.490
which is of

517
01:27:31.510 --> 01:27:33.890
used by members of

518
01:27:35.190 --> 01:27:36.299
experiences. Let him.

519
01:27:36.360 --> 01:27:41.380
among other components to increasingly regard himself as the.

520
01:27:42.080 --> 01:27:44.959
or to regard his family, as

521
01:27:45.060 --> 01:27:53.880
also implies uncertainties belonging to those who are in a bias around. I regard. and the especially in the food

522
01:27:54.650 --> 01:27:55.600
of A,

523
01:27:55.840 --> 01:27:56.580
is more important.

524
01:27:56.950 --> 01:28:00.199
The signs that the consensus.

525
01:28:00.360 --> 01:28:05.439
then, from the this fight is a very conscious regard

526
01:28:06.370 --> 01:28:08.170
to my experience

527
01:28:08.230 --> 01:28:12.810
on the back of his report when expanded. and

528
01:28:15.840 --> 01:28:23.560
this for their strength, and is vital to his family care of him during this process? How about that? His probably

529
01:28:23.870 --> 01:28:24.600
county

530
01:28:24.760 --> 01:28:26.480
presents his life story

531
01:28:26.790 --> 01:28:28.920
the

532
01:28:29.280 --> 01:28:32.399
okay you for it to clean everything.

533
01:28:33.230 --> 01:28:36.200
Despite learning this, we image from his parents.

534
01:28:37.230 --> 01:28:38.530
I'm an alternative.

535
01:28:40.890 --> 01:28:44.700
I think that's it. With 2 members of the

536
01:28:45.290 --> 01:28:53.699
the interviews were conducted by different interviewers when Eisen was born in Jordan, and who conducted an interview with his mother Shabia or in.

537
01:28:54.590 --> 01:28:56.559
I think that's the one on my feature, too.

538
01:28:56.670 --> 01:28:59.750
Several. Forward with 5, 6 in 2,020

539
01:29:00.770 --> 01:29:06.520
on the in Jordan the Hammer family can be frame as a non-air

540
01:29:07.310 --> 01:29:09.419
family from their full Sudan.

541
01:29:09.750 --> 01:29:10.439
So yeah

542
01:29:10.610 --> 01:29:11.310
on.

543
01:29:11.910 --> 01:29:13.199
looks back to their family

544
01:29:13.930 --> 01:29:17.689
present perspective. The experiences of her father

545
01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:20.280
as an African-

546
01:29:21.450 --> 01:29:23.140
this

547
01:29:29.430 --> 01:29:31.560
in the long.

548
01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:37.349
so that 1930 s. In my grade in

549
01:29:37.580 --> 01:29:39.280
for anybody

550
01:29:39.320 --> 01:29:41.650
of

551
01:29:42.250 --> 01:29:48.419
Shabia was born in Palestine and grew up with a really promote the best. Only

552
01:29:48.700 --> 01:29:50.009
during her childhood.

553
01:29:51.240 --> 01:29:58.569
which the deal was not. She migrated with her family to man. Against the background of the occupation of the West Bank by Israeli forces.

554
01:29:59.040 --> 01:30:04.420
Should you lost her father, which was 16, which led her to good times with her family.

555
01:30:06.810 --> 01:30:09.319
When she finished high school she

556
01:30:09.360 --> 01:30:12.520
established

557
01:30:12.980 --> 01:30:14.639
during the 19 seventies.

558
01:30:14.950 --> 01:30:16.340
recent and

559
01:30:18.330 --> 01:30:22.849
in on the Clear circumstances in 1,990, she'll hear about fragment of a

560
01:30:22.940 --> 01:30:27.749
among er the house of the from their food, who migrated to around the 19

561
01:30:28.720 --> 01:30:33.130
from her relationship with that one. Should you aim for it? To

562
01:30:34.580 --> 01:30:37.220
to understand this case, it is important to know that

563
01:30:37.340 --> 01:30:38.189
I see

564
01:30:38.440 --> 01:30:39.170
nothing.

565
01:30:39.330 --> 01:30:42.340
His first daughter and Isis have sister

566
01:30:42.450 --> 01:30:49.630
got to bring them outside from from Isaac's code in perspective. He tells that he's from being half.

567
01:30:49.980 --> 01:30:51.390
and this is their father

568
01:30:51.910 --> 01:30:53.640
to restore the

569
01:30:54.780 --> 01:30:55.550
according to

570
01:30:56.130 --> 01:30:57.020
it was okay.

571
01:30:58.280 --> 01:31:02.840
Against his background she has escaped with her children, her present daughter

572
01:31:02.860 --> 01:31:04.110
and her grandfather.

573
01:31:06.340 --> 01:31:08.939
should you, but physically violent to our Isa.

574
01:31:09.540 --> 01:31:12.459
6 years ago she used to suffocate

575
01:31:12.710 --> 01:31:15.720
until we best out response to

576
01:31:17.110 --> 01:31:21.839
shaped by messing into familiar physical violence, which went on.

577
01:31:23.100 --> 01:31:31.800
The family returned to Jordan in during this period. Isaac's father is that? Oh, yeah.

578
01:31:32.030 --> 01:31:36.119
it's alcoholic Independence Ledge, and here to report into German

579
01:31:36.690 --> 01:31:37.630
could important.

580
01:31:38.020 --> 01:31:38.680
so that

581
01:31:39.640 --> 01:31:40.390
I,

582
01:31:40.900 --> 01:31:42.580
in the coming years.

583
01:31:42.830 --> 01:31:44.829
bye. is he to

584
01:31:45.630 --> 01:31:49.030
as related to the complications of your

585
01:31:49.680 --> 01:32:00.210
nice? A in a man where he is often controlled. To these officers he has been increasing 4 times, undermining charges. The last year

586
01:32:04.410 --> 01:32:05.799
Isaac summarizes his

587
01:32:06.510 --> 01:32:07.250
47.

588
01:32:09.440 --> 01:32:10.120
The question.

589
01:32:11.550 --> 01:32:16.250
This attitude is connected to speculations regarding the experiences of sexual

590
01:32:17.820 --> 01:32:19.770
in the context of the

591
01:32:19.910 --> 01:32:20.619
have to.

592
01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:27.929
and 2 speculations regarding how should you have it as its father models, and the

593
01:32:27.950 --> 01:32:29.520
this forms of

594
01:32:29.870 --> 01:32:31.020
hit their eyes on

595
01:32:31.280 --> 01:32:34.170
it is more and more about. The

596
01:32:35.450 --> 01:32:38.400
this contributes to the prevention of the

597
01:32:38.560 --> 01:32:39.470
images of

598
01:32:39.910 --> 01:32:41.740
to which his father.

599
01:32:41.930 --> 01:32:44.789
because myternal grandfather belonged to the

600
01:32:45.480 --> 01:32:46.459
or over

601
01:32:46.600 --> 01:32:49.470
he is when she was a child.

602
01:32:51.570 --> 01:32:52.360
and you.

603
01:32:53.040 --> 01:32:53.760
Similarly

604
01:32:54.110 --> 01:32:57.670
Isaac and his sister lost contact with their son in his father.

605
01:32:58.820 --> 01:33:02.910
in contrast to his mother. for is it it becomes more

606
01:33:03.040 --> 01:33:04.889
present. His family itself.

607
01:33:05.800 --> 01:33:08.349
which is an unexpected.

608
01:33:09.780 --> 01:33:12.220
is connected to the

609
01:33:14.230 --> 01:33:16.310
and he his family born.

610
01:33:19.020 --> 01:33:23.279
This shapes toward the more established.

611
01:33:27.290 --> 01:33:30.889
Now, what these cases show us about the transmission of

612
01:33:32.070 --> 01:33:33.690
the

613
01:33:35.240 --> 01:33:44.599
the NASA country represents a case in which the pest is so done and stematized, and knowledge about this past is explicitly passed on to the descendants.

614
01:33:45.000 --> 01:33:46.349
This type is

615
01:33:47.210 --> 01:33:50.910
both from and interested in these people.

616
01:33:51.430 --> 01:33:52.580
In this case

617
01:33:53.050 --> 01:33:56.159
both of you of the collective memory are

618
01:33:56.510 --> 01:34:02.920
the memory. On the same hand you will be grouping from the whole region and the support from other.

619
01:34:02.980 --> 01:34:07.200
During the experience of physical violence along the operation course.

620
01:34:08.950 --> 01:34:10.229
they have a family

621
01:34:10.250 --> 01:34:14.460
represents a case in which the of that

622
01:34:14.840 --> 01:34:16.560
and knowledge about the best

623
01:34:17.590 --> 01:34:19.390
test of the

624
01:34:20.650 --> 01:34:21.340
if you.

625
01:34:22.500 --> 01:34:24.230
and show how to

626
01:34:25.300 --> 01:34:26.180
no price

627
01:34:27.060 --> 01:34:28.070
is for

628
01:34:29.150 --> 01:34:32.169
this case, shows that in my own experiences of

629
01:34:32.990 --> 01:34:34.580
the history of the group.

630
01:34:34.700 --> 01:34:37.819
but also from the family history, have the potential to

631
01:34:38.040 --> 01:34:39.860
can change some evolution of their own.

632
01:34:40.850 --> 01:34:42.920
Those self-

633
01:34:43.780 --> 01:34:46.620
depend on very increased. And

634
01:34:47.100 --> 01:34:48.570
this is important.

635
01:34:48.900 --> 01:34:49.690
It's sh

636
01:34:49.820 --> 01:34:53.120
the transmission of the collective memory

637
01:34:53.220 --> 01:34:55.450
into and forward.

638
01:34:56.650 --> 01:34:59.670
It's already Palestine in Jordan.

639
01:34:59.900 --> 01:35:07.299
the fiscal separation of family members and the generations and the experience of physical violence inside their own family.

640
01:35:10.640 --> 01:35:20.320
These processes of transmission of Wendy images have outcomes in relation to the knowledge. Isa learning. And how we can

641
01:35:20.560 --> 01:35:28.149
knowledge that they find themselves in one way or another. and to improve their power, chances in participation in different groups.

642
01:35:30.290 --> 01:35:31.970
Abu Baker is

643
01:35:32.970 --> 01:35:33.640
history.

644
01:35:33.840 --> 01:35:42.170
and he dance his common life, circumstances, and experiences of racialized discrimination. Again, in the background of the collective family history in Africa.

645
01:35:42.450 --> 01:35:44.950
by constructing myself as an African.

646
01:35:45.510 --> 01:35:47.159
It helps him to participate in

647
01:35:48.240 --> 01:35:49.370
that support.

648
01:35:50.130 --> 01:35:53.180
Something we did not experience from ever

649
01:35:54.790 --> 01:35:55.570
I said

650
01:35:56.430 --> 01:35:58.150
about his family history.

651
01:35:58.500 --> 01:36:05.140
I'm on the these. These constructions of belong to the but we

652
01:36:05.390 --> 01:36:08.400
in a more outside the position.

653
01:36:10.170 --> 01:36:11.199
Thank you for your

654
01:36:18.460 --> 01:36:34.189
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: yeah. Thank you very much, Lucas. The sound was not that good, I guess, in the in the zoom room. because it's not what. How was it for the autumn, Miss Zoom? Now it's okay, but it says, it's this kind of problems with the Pre.

655
01:36:35.150 --> 01:36:46.189
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: okay. So we have time. some minutes. The last minutes of this session for comments and questions.

656
01:36:46.920 --> 01:36:49.630
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: okay. Are there any questions?

657
01:36:58.150 --> 01:37:00.670
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: I see there's one question, all right. Yep.

658
01:37:06.320 --> 01:37:11.610
How much do we have? I have a general question for all of the panelists.

659
01:37:11.770 --> 01:37:14.509
Can I pose it now, or should I?

660
01:37:15.330 --> 01:37:19.249
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: No, you can. You can ask. Of course, we have a couple of minutes.

661
01:37:19.270 --> 01:37:26.189
Okay, I thought, we have 20 past 20. Yeah, we have 10 min. Yeah, that's right.

662
01:37:26.780 --> 01:37:27.840
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Let's

663
01:37:28.500 --> 01:37:52.649
First of all, thank you so much for this wonderful presentations. I like those very much. They were very moving. And my question goes actually in the direction that the colleague post here in reference to memory cultures. So I wonder if you you all could say something about the societal context of?

664
01:37:52.930 --> 01:38:13.459
And how should I understand the stories embedded in societal context? So what kind of memory cultures are they present coming from Germany? I know that in Germany there is a strong memory culture in reference to a Nazi. past.

665
01:38:13.590 --> 01:38:28.730
but it it is actually well, challenge is a wrong word, because it's actually not challenged, but it so there are very strong voices that, and especially now, when we are talking about the decolonization

666
01:38:28.840 --> 01:38:57.340
to memory culture on colonialism and a racist violence that is taking place in Germany. So at the moment there is emerging a very differentiated memory culture or demands for such a differentiated memory culture that it's not anymore enough, because this memory culture.

667
01:38:57.559 --> 01:39:06.619
it's called in German er in the home school tour is is very strongly bound with the like. Nazi past.

668
01:39:14.340 --> 01:39:15.939
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Okay?

669
01:39:16.240 --> 01:39:16.910
yes.

670
01:39:17.200 --> 01:39:20.750
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: You want to answer this

671
01:39:21.620 --> 01:39:23.420
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: question and comment

672
01:39:23.690 --> 01:39:26.070
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: these from the the centers.

673
01:39:32.510 --> 01:39:35.999
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: You know I'm not the it's you, me. This is what I.

674
01:39:36.129 --> 01:39:41.559
Ashley's suggest suggested that Luke has starts as the last rescinder, and then we move backwards.

675
01:39:41.580 --> 01:39:47.190
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Yeah, we can do that. Maybe it's easier.

676
01:39:47.230 --> 01:39:53.389
Lucas Cé Sangalli: I don't do research on Germany, but I live here. I don't know how much a specialist I am on that.

677
01:39:53.440 --> 01:40:05.209
Lucas Cé Sangalli: I would say that from a configurational perspective, it's always an empirical question, like, what are which groupings are having their their

678
01:40:05.680 --> 01:40:12.539
Lucas Cé Sangalli: memory, their collective memory more institutionalized in, in, in, in, in which others are not meaning to.

679
01:40:12.549 --> 01:40:32.019
Lucas Cé Sangalli: If there is a very strong tematization of the past of national socialism, and this persecutions at the same time, which other topics, such as the presence of colonial forces and the violence perpetrated by colonial forces in present day. Ghana, for example, are the thematized at the same time, or also the presence

680
01:40:32.030 --> 01:40:46.200
Lucas Cé Sangalli: on the current process on the current project that I'm working on collective memory of slavery is like, for example, the massive presence of families who had families of Germans or from Switzerland and present day. Austria, who had

681
01:40:46.440 --> 01:41:05.159
Lucas Cé Sangalli: the enslaved people in Brazil, in different regions of Brazil, an entire kind of communities of Germans, and whose descendants see themselves also as Germans even in the presence, but that's totally the timatized in in the detriment or in favor of talking about the Nazi past 2.

682
01:41:05.190 --> 01:41:25.640
Lucas Cé Sangalli: so I think, in this sense. This is always an empirical question to reconstruct, and how far the democratization and the focus of one process of remembering or certain processes of remembering at the same time also serves socially or collectively to not talk about other processes of

683
01:41:26.260 --> 01:41:29.729
Lucas Cé Sangalli: of violence perpetrated in this societies in the past.

684
01:41:36.299 --> 01:41:38.280
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Does anybody from the

685
01:41:38.309 --> 01:41:45.229
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: answer to this, or comment on this comment, if not, I would like to ask for further questions.

686
01:41:46.430 --> 01:41:49.510
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: So let's do that. Correct

687
01:41:49.780 --> 01:42:02.209
Fira Chmiel: that. For example, here, in the the context of cultural memory. there are some for example,

688
01:42:02.700 --> 01:42:27.130
Fira Chmiel: in places that were a torture, places that they they turn to culture, a places to do, remember things. And so these challenges the families also, and the and all society to come to see these these places.

689
01:42:27.130 --> 01:42:42.770
Fira Chmiel: and who were in the past places of torture, and so on. So also the the laws that that that tries to repair the damage cost 250,

690
01:42:42.770 --> 01:42:53.040
Fira Chmiel: and also a challenge, the families, and all society. And this is a team that comes in, and a

691
01:42:53.130 --> 01:42:58.019
Fira Chmiel: once and again in the social debates. It's not close

692
01:42:58.130 --> 01:43:02.599
Fira Chmiel: in Argentina, I mean, you are also. And so

693
01:43:02.780 --> 01:43:04.850
Fira Chmiel: that's that Wednesday.

694
01:43:08.270 --> 01:43:09.430
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Thank you.

695
01:43:11.040 --> 01:43:13.820
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Are there any questions? And

696
01:43:21.220 --> 01:43:23.110
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: is there's one in the room.

697
01:43:23.320 --> 01:43:27.130
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: You honest, I guess I see your hand.

698
01:43:33.410 --> 01:43:52.970
I have another question, for fear. This year is the fiftys anniversary of the military coping on the Y, and also this year is the fourtieth anniversary of the recovery of democracy in Argentina. So I would like to know if these Commemoration events

699
01:43:53.130 --> 01:43:57.010
having an incidence in your research.

700
01:44:00.640 --> 01:44:11.700
Fira Chmiel: Thank you very much for your questions. I I am sorry I'm I'm not saying you. But this well.

701
01:44:11.900 --> 01:44:31.229
Fira Chmiel: and what do you said? It's very important, because there are a lot of commemoration in all in all the countries, also in Chile. But in my research I I I defend my my thesis last year.

702
01:44:31.250 --> 01:44:37.620
Fira Chmiel: So it wasn't in in the time of the commemorations. But

703
01:44:37.880 --> 01:45:06.069
Fira Chmiel: a. I am now presenting in different kind of events, The results of my my research, and it can be a a good, a good opportunity to to reconnect with the Those who why interview Ask some questions about how they feel, and they leave this in

704
01:45:06.100 --> 01:45:10.150
Fira Chmiel: this particular year. Thank you for your question.

705
01:45:13.690 --> 01:45:15.620
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: Thank you. Fiona.

706
01:45:18.480 --> 01:45:25.280
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: so we have 2, 3 min left. So if you have some question, it's the chance now to do that.

707
01:45:25.460 --> 01:45:31.260
Maria Pohn-Lauggas:  okay, in the room. There is no question.

708
01:45:34.470 --> 01:45:36.410
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: I can't. Okay.

709
01:45:37.550 --> 01:45:45.239
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: yeah, I think it's, I mean, we can finish 3 min earlier. It's okay to really, okay. So your break is so

710
01:45:45.380 --> 01:45:47.850
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: bigger. And yeah.

711
01:45:48.090 --> 01:45:58.239
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: thank you very much for the interesting and self-provoking of presentations from different historical and region of the world. and yeah.

712
01:45:58.540 --> 01:46:14.210
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: thanks also to your Highness and the support in the in Melbourne. this helps a lot with the camera here to see the room, because that's not. I think that's not the common and it's was really good for us here also on the

713
01:46:14.430 --> 01:46:21.359
Maria Pohn-Lauggas: computers in one of the computers. Okay, I wish you a nice day and see you in the sessions by.