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Okay. So I welcome you for the session. On intergenerational experience of social mobility and migration.

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And, I welcome, as oral presentations, first. Minda, from good university of and I would invite Minh to say some words about herself, about her intellectual biography and then to start her presentation.

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Okay, thank you so much. Rosala. Just wonder if I just open my presentation.

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First here. So.

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Yes. Okay, so. Good morning everybody.

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Our chair has arrived so we can start. I'm very happy that you are all there and attending because I was a bit afraid that nobody is coming on the last day, but it's lovely that you have come.

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We have 2 papers today. Originally we had 4 ones, but others had to cancel, unfortunately.

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That means that we have plenty, plenty of time. That means also that I am my papers a bit longer than 10 min.

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So I hope we also have them in enough time to discuss. Yes, my name is Mina Kristina Rokunen, Angela and I'm based at Institute for Social Research at the University in Crownford in Germany.

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And I'm. I'm a researcher there and I'm going to talk about my current research project.

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And, Yes, I think I leave it on to this you can impose me questions Afterwards, if you hand some to my person and to my paper.

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And my presentation is titled Climbing Up Together in the Generation and Gender negotiation of upwards social mobility and migrant families.

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Okay.

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In my paper I want to focus on discussing social upward mobility experiences. And their intergenerational negotiations in the context of labor migrant descendants and their parents in Germany.

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I start by discussing social output mobility and how it has been reserved so far and come tend to talk about my ongoing research project.

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Then I give you some insights in my empirical material very short. And conclude with some preliminary remarks.

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The slides are not moving. So.

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Do you know what? But do you when the slides are not?

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Yes, okay, thank you. So this was the So it's the OK, what do I understand under social upward mobility?

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In his reproduction theory, Peerput, you stated that societies have a strong tendency to reproduce The respective class structures based on taste, distinction, and power dynamics.

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This reproductive dynamic does not only establish the continuity of class relations, but the continuity of the social and generational relations too.

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So social upward mobility in turn runs against these reproductive mechanisms. Since it enables individuals to achieve a higher social position in a class structure.

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Thus from the perspective of social reproduction Social upfoot mobility appears as an irritation of social order and the given class structure.

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Despite the irritation of the social order, social advancement and social upward mobility is not assumed to have a revolutionary dynamic.

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It remains as an irritation. Thus, social advancement is more related to the idea of adaptation and assimilation to the given social structure that the idea that those who have climbed up the social ladder would change the given class taxes.

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The possibility to climb up social ladder goes hand in hand with the development of modernity. It is based on the idea that in democratic societies All its members should have participation opportunities based on equal rights and access to in-material material and social abuse.

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How, this promise does not mean egalitarianism among the members of society. Rather, the promise of social participation opportunities is linked to individual performance and married.

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It is a promise of higher materials standard of living to an increase in education autonomy in the way of life with an increase in power through the disposal of resources and networks.

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As well as with a higher degree of social appreciation. Accordingly, social advancement and social mobility should be at least in theory possible for everyone who is a high performer.

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To relative openness based on individual performance stems from a normative basis that assumes that performance is a human characteristic that every human being is capable of.

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This promise is substantiated in slogans like from dishwasher to a millionaire. The promise of more participation through social advancements stand in contrast to their devaluation of educational qualifications.

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And to reduce vulnerability of the social structure. For example, in Germany, it is theoristically still possible to climb up the social ladders, but in fact the Shanies are small and unequally distributed as the OECD study has shown.

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At the same time, however, various studies in that the descendants of labor migrants in Germany have high educational aspirations and seems successfully climb up the social ladder.

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And here are some images of social equality. What does it mean then to climb up to source a ladder?

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It is generally assumed that social upfront mobility is associated with individual costs. Like experiences of alienation from the context.

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Of class of origin. With simultaneous difficulties in arriving. In a new class position.

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This difficulties can be explained by the structural power of happiness. According to Bordeaux, a person's happiness is conceived as a permanent pattern of perception toward an action that can hardly be changed.

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Pordier records happiness consisting of class specific proteins and patterns and the conditions under which they emerge and reflect historically involved.

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Power relations. That's happy to act as a mediator between social structure and social practice. Even though Portuguese concept of happy to serves the purpose of explaining to reproduction of social conditions, the question how social upward mobility processes emerge remains unanswered.

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There seems to be a general agreement that in order to cope with the change in social position happiness transformation in the sense of transcendent conditions of origin is necessary.

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If one now takes the associated alienation from the class origin or so familiar seriously and considers that this causes transformation of happiness.

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One could ask what happens to the social relations in this process. Doesn't successful process or social upward mobility lead to an erosion of family or generational relationships and does it not reinforce the tendency to reproduce class and mechanisms or major differences within society.

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The studies on social upward mobility seem to focus on the discussion of the individual alienation from the social class and on the problems with the new social status.

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How, I think it's important to take a closer look at this assumed earlier nation and the position between the classes from an interchangeational biographical perspective.

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Okay.

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If you take a look at my creation project you can see that these like efforts to climb up the social ladder are associated with the expectation of improving material and or immaterial living conditions.

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They hope for a better life in my creation represents a more or less articulated task that the migration project has to fulfill.

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However, their respective chances of success do not only depend on the individual achievements, but are largely shaped on the individual achievements but are largely shaped by structural conditions.

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Against this background, the determined social upward mobility through education seems to need an explanation. Especially when some studies have identified a general stagnation of opioids for social upward mobility if not the danger of social decline.

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Question is who climbs up? What is the demand for that and what happens in families and between generations?

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How then to research social mobility?

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One that I quantitative studies have approached social mobility as an individual achievement that can be measured in a regard to social changes and social permeability or impermability.

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However, that kind of research says little about struggles, dynamics and processes involved in climbing up the saucer ladder.

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Furthermore, there is little knowledge on

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Than generative family structures and mechanisms of in generation on transmission of social mobility aspirations. From a multi generational research perspective.

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And if and how gender and other social differentiations, how a relations, discrimination and racism are intertwined with the social upward mobility processes and if the educational advancement leads Do social advancement and social upward mobility.

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In my current research approach I have taken up these topics. From a reconstructive biographical narrative perspective, I focus on question how social upward mobility experiences are biographically narrated and how in these narrations the social upward mobility individual a mass of sorry The socially upward mobility.

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Excuse me. How in this narcissance the social upability is individually processed and intergenerously negotiated.

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In the context of migrant families. I ask how social upward mobility influences in the generational and gender relations experiences of belonging and respective family support structures.

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This perspective is important in so far as the relationships between the generations can change over a lifetime and does a reorganization of intergenerational relationships can take place.

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In order to research this I have been interviewing both parents and their grown-up children and conducting family discussions too.

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The biographical perspective that I have chosen for my study enables from a narrative perspective a temporalized reflective view on the influence of social structures and habitual dispersions.

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The biographical experiences are understood as biographical knowledge as a result of ongoing reflective process during which the life experiences are revisited.

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Provised. The temporal and process related constitution of experience sees with builds up as a biographical knowledge structure gives rise to the possibility of developing a biographical perspective on one's own life.

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Biographical knowledge does functions as capital or resource that inables a subject to cope with new action situations.

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What does it mean then when I talk about social advancement from an intergenerational perspective? In my investigation, I deal with the narratives of different generations.

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Understood in a genealogical sense from a relational multi-generational perspective and try to reconstruct how family educational advancement and social upward mobility and intergenerational dynamics are negotiates.

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It is reflecting narratives and whether this relationship changes over the life course. What is then upward mobility?

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Okay.

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Back to this question. I would like and I will like to now turn to the discussion of some intermediate results of my results.

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The research is still going on. But I would like to start with a quote from one of my interviews that underlines the need to consider social upward dynamics not only from the perspective of last dynamics but from subjective biochemical perspective too.

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I quote, I started answering It is laughs. This question yesterday because after our phone call it started working in me right away and did it again and again.

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So in the afternoon and in the evening it was there again. I can ask myself. What this upward social mobility is?

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Had the feeling that it is incredibly personal in the sense of what you would call upward mobility or it definitely makes a difference.

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In some else eyes than in my own eyes but you might call upwards or some mobility. And I kept coming up with the situation at different ages.

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That were somehow relevant in that regard. I don't have any structure now. But I would say that it makes sense to start very early.

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Just going back and going back means that I will I am other way around my mother is as a young woman so it's quite interesting that she starts with her mother.

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And then let's have a look at Pamuk family.

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Island on Jempamok. Arrived as labor migrants from Turkey in in the middle of seventeens to Germany.

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At the time of the interview Buddha retired and lived transnational lives between Turkey and Germany. Ivanhoe Ayla and Shen Pamuk migrated to Germany.

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Out of political reasons. And over the past worker system. They however narrate a migration project as a possibility to give their children better life in Germany.

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This is underlined by the involvement in the education of their tree children. Mata Alempamok is strongly involved in supporting the children's education and even working more to pay the tutoring fees of their children.

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We're as the father Jean Pamouk is responsible for the political education of their children who are drawn at early aids in political activities in political youth organizations.

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All 3 children have studied. 2 of them, Lila and Kaya have finished their studies, whereas Akka has dropped off his studies 2 times.

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However, has further educated himself through the courses at the Open University. Layla and Akha are both working in the field of politics, whereas the youngest daughter has found employment in the field of culture management.

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If we now look at the family relationships in this family, it's campus that is Can be characterised by these very strong family ties that include reciprocity, independence and mutual recognition.

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And I could give, for that something in examples, but it would take some time. This means that in practice, for example, That Akapamuk does the shopping for the parents once a week even though he's living about 50 kilometers away and his younger sister is go happy meeting with their parents after she had finished her studies, she moved to her

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parents. Whereas the older sister plays occasional visits to parents. How many members use all smartphones are in daily connection with each other and it's more interesting because during the interview the children were calling or writing WhatsApp messages.

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And the parents commented on that. That's why I know it.

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So this short claims on the material. I leave the case now and come to the preliminary remarks of my research in regard to the question who climbs up this also ladder.

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My research so far indicates that social upward mobility trajectories of the descendants of the labor migrants are highly in the woven with the biographies of the parents.

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And it seems to be important to consider the whole migration project as an intergenerational social effort mobility project.

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Not only that of the descendants. In this process there seems to exist strong intergenerational transmission in which parents that locate their own aspirations to the children.

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This puts the children under high pressure and creates effective inequalities between generations in sense that there are different expectations, hopes of the parents and the children's need to perform.

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This might cause emotional stress and effective tensions that for example can come into appearance in the adolescence.

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And there are some conflicts also in this family.

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Furthermore, Barons have different roles in advocating the educational success of their children. How they do this is highly influenced.

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By their own biographical gendered experiences as well as by the family history. As a political activist, it's Jim Bamo support when it comes to the political education of the children.

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Eileen Pamuk who did not have a possibility to study even though she wanted she was very interested to study.

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As his brothers had studied. Highly motivated to support the educational patterns of their children. It can be argued now.

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From the long term a multi-generational perspective that the social upward mobility of detection to education does not need or doesn't seem to lead to the alienation from the parents and their life as theorists.

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Instead, the tineries in our relationships can be described as in talent relationships or linked lives. And effective care relations in which everyone is in case and involved in the upward mobility process of the whole family, however, in different ways.

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So thank you for listening.

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Thank you very much, Mina. I hope you can also see me now. I'm in the room.

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Yes, yes, we see you. We all see you now in the room. That's wonderful.

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So I am very much welcome our next speaker. And on the program I have a Sandia Nomvita.

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Is this right?

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Yes.

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Just thought that Yeah, the screen. Oh, no, just a second. Yeah.

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Sonia, maybe you can say also some words about your a biographical, the Korea.

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Introduce yourself a little bit.

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Just a second. How fun with the

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The first.

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This happened at Johannes, I think we need, yes, this is it's crashed down again.

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Just a second also love we have some technical issue here but

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Yeah, I see. I see.

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Yes, we're going to open the presentation.

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I always cream is frozen. We can't open the second.

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Yeah. So now it's coming.

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Of good afternoon colleagues and good morning to those who are seeing us from areas other than where it is evening.

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I mean this afternoon. My name is, I am a sociologist but work as a institutional researcher at Nelson Mandela University.

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And yeah, I'm quite happy to be here today. And what is my first international conference, so I'm quite excited.

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And partly nervous but looking forward to what could be a good what will be I imagine a good engagement First and foremost, I would like to state that My work is

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Part of a larger piece of work which was my done for my PhD. Where I was looking at continued migrant labour.

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By a group of men in a particular area called Mwonderland in the Eastern Cape province in the Eastern Cape.

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And so I was trying to really answer the question of continuity. You know, given the effect that the very nature of migrant labor to the mines in South Africa.

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Was cohesive. So just as a background.

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My name my labor to South Africa was set in motion with the discovery of diamonds in Kimberly In 1867.

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And was further propelled. With the discovery of gold in 18 86 in Johannesburg.

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So during this period there was really a big gold rush. As such, much of the labor that was needed had to be sourced.

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You know from many parts of you know the southern African region.

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Some of the labor you know in the South African mines I especially in the case of diamonds you know was So even as further as China.

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You know to make sure that there was a sufficient labor supply you know given the discovery of of minerals at the time in the country.

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In the 19 sixties through the 1970, s majority of labor was foreign in in South Africa. And local labour only accounted, you know, for an Average of about 21%, you know, during that period.

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However, there was a significant decline again, then in the in the 19 in the late 19 seventies and a much more significant decline went into the

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1,980, s which then led to to an increase in local labor. And of course, part of the do you increase in in what was foreign labor coming from countries such as Lesuto Malawi and and and Mozambique in the main began to decline because of some of

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the arguments that the apartheid regime head. Began falling away because of some of the colonizers pulling out of, you know, certain countries, you know, and then of course generally other political issues that were emerging at the time that forced you know, you know, these countries to pull

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out. I must state however that we still do see a very strong presence although it cannot be compared to the past of The Basutu they are much more stronger on the side of, of of the gold mines which are in a rapid decline in themselves.

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And they are also existing more so alongside Zimbabweans who also come from you know, and a neighboring border.

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In in in in illicit mining activities known in South Africa as a Mazamas. So this.

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Introduction of migrants see that came with you know the the

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With that came with mining you know meant you know many families would be divided and of course with the growth of local labor in the mines they became then a growth of people you know from this particular region the eastern cave province migrating to the mines resulting to many families.

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You know being Headed by women only.

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As many men took up. You know, labour form, you know, for periods of longer than a year.

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So my grandmother to the mines in South Africa has often been studied. In the labor receiving areas. Mostly through the lenses of men that have historically constituted the majority of the labor force.

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So subsequently as I've just dated, migrant household led by women in the level selling areas have little, I've received little attention.

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And yet they play a significant role in the lives of migrants. In their very decision to take up migrant labour.

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Important to understand about the South African migrant labor system is that it was cohesive as early as stated.

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That is to say there were laws and systems put in place. To ensure that men from certain parts of South Africa that took up migrant work

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Part of the migrant labor system. Was to ensure that certain areas you know of South Africa where black people in particular lived in the former band to stance we call them they were called There were those places were left underdeveloped and therefore economically unviable.

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You know for people to stay put.

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Yeah.

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And work for their families within proximities of their own families. Now, my study was concerned really with understanding the continued reliance on migrant labour to the minds by men from Ponda land in the Eastern Cape in light of the fact that the coercive laws that it had maintained that systems had been abolished.

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Now, my findings, among other things were that you know women were at the center of continued migrant lab and ponderland which I found not to be quite.

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Fascinating. You know, partly because

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Families, you know, tend to want to always be together, but you know for me it what what emerged in my findings was that

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Women in Ponderland fully appreciated the economic and viability. And lack of economic opportunities for men in that particular area such that you know, it was necessary for them.

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You know to leave their homes you know for whatever periods of time in order to be able to you know, meaningfully contribute.

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Into the household economy.

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So I say they are dissent and I asked a very big question, how are women? In support and how do they how are they at the center of continued migrant labor.

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So women in Bundle and fully support migration of men to their minds, citing the absence of real economic opportunities.

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In the labor sending areas. Men in ponderland have also Master socioeconomic investment societies or schemes which in my work are referred to as where they multiply you know certain savings that come in form of remittances.

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As well as social grounds within their households in a manner. That has their own. A meaningful economic contribution within the household.

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Which then, you know, in some ways challenges, you know, your

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You know, muster linenities, you know, and and and therefore contest in some ways. Power relations you know within the household so women in Pondolent have ascented their amenities and view their own roles within the migrant household as equal to that of men.

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They argue that theirs is to manage the household in support of a shared vision. Of building an economically viable household and raising.

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Of well educated children.

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Women in ponderland are able to save, invest and multiply social grants received from government. And also farm for subsistence They are prowess, their powers inexpensive.

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Social reproductive work in the labor sending areas therefore challenges hergemonic mass challenges in a manner that positively You know pressures men to consider my work in order to asset and maintain their own power within the household in some ways.

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So there are some scholars. That have theorized, you know, on this.

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You know, this sense of agency. And power amongst women. Moody, 1,994.

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Used the notion of woofazi, you know, to explain You know, and describe the women that excelled in social reproductive labor.

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Thereby complementing you know that social reproductive labor which included building of a household, taking care of children, but generally managing the household.

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He referred to that as far as and building what he called Umzi. Which is an iterosa word.

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That refers to a household. More recently, benjamin, 2,020, used the same concept of Uubafazi.

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To explain the reconfiguration of you know, femininity of amenities amongst women under amongst women, mine workers underground.

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I am currently trying to cook my own concept. Which I will share with you shortly. You know, and of course I would like of course for you to perhaps challenge me or you know give some water for advice in terms of how this you know could be grown further.

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Or developed. So.

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I just have a few codes, you know, that speak, you know, to What I mean by that women are at the center.

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Of continued migrant labour to the mines in South Africa. So this is one quote by Mantleana.

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The reality is that there are no jobs here. You know this too. I am sure you also don't live here.

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Yes, I admit Rosenberg is far. I have been there twice. It's really far.

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You really can see when this man comes back after if we leave, he is thin and tired. You can see his job is taking a lot of out of him, but what can we do?

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They also depend, what can we do? He has a mother whom depends on me for support. His children from before we got married, 2 of them, they also depend on me.

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And I children too. 3 of them. So he must work no matter how far. I'm here to look after everything as a as my womanly contribution.

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There are no jobs really suited for men here except being a taxi driver or being a security guard.

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So this speaks to some of the understandings that come from the side of women. That although typically the Western view of a woman that stays at home may be seen as something that is subjugating.

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There's a sense of agency that emerges from these women in that they take charge. You know, based on their own cultural dispositions to say We understand our role in the household.

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As that of contributing. In this particular fashion to meet You know, our partners, our husbands in a particular way, in a collaborative manner that does not stick to well no one seeks to undermine the other in terms of their contribution to the household.

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So, Mum barely says, I fully support my husband's choice. To be frank with you, We would not have this house.

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In household if it were not for that job. There is no other thing that I can think of that he could have not, he could have done here.

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The money he makes takes care of his children in that job. He feeds these many children that you see.

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Puts them through school and one of them is at the University of 14 as we speak. You can also see that we are building some more.

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So yes, I fully support him. So now this, you know, had come when I posed the question of do you support the fact that your husband does not live here with you.

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And end and end.

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So As part of these, you know, societies which I have referred to in MBU to that women are involved in.

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And I know some of our colleagues, in in South Africa such as Numkowsi, Kulukama.

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Speak to these and call them Umhal Lizwa and I know Eddie Webster.

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You know, also writes about similar societies. Where they talk about stock files, which is literally just exchanging of monies at particular so

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For example, as we are in this particular venue, we would combine, let's say, $10 per month and give it to one individual and the next month.

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Is given to another and it's part of a societal contribution towards sustenance of households and it's something that really exists in South Africa and now at all different levels of social structure the poorest of the poor are involved in this even the wealthiest of the wealthy are also involved in these types of social economies.

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So,imbuta that served as a form So. So a Matt Ebola who was now talking to me about how she then contributes to the household said to me,imbuto serve as a form of short term saving or investment.

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We do monthly contributions as women of different communities. It woman knows that at the end of each month it is time to contribute and that when he does it it was it is her turn she will receive 3,000 rents On the one hand, you know you are guaranteed 5,000 rents.

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I partake in 2. There is a non-mind cycle before one gets their turn. There are 10 of us in each.

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And Mandja says for now I am only involved in one ofimbuto. We contribute money for December since it is a holiday season.

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How long it takes before the grocery runs out depends on how many people come back. Home during at that time since there are some people that do not stay here at home.

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Which again speaks to the fact that much of the many of the people in those particular areas rely on migrant work.

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Because of the lack of opportunities. Even people are even in terms of going taking application education also requires you when you come from this area to go a bit further at least 3 h away from home.

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So here at home I am held very in very high regard by elders and children in both my immediate household and amongst the relatives.

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As well so it gets full you know during the December period you find that my nephews and nieces from both families.

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Leave their respective homes and come here for December until schools are opening in January. When that has been the case, this grocery runs until the end of January.

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Whereas if not many people come it goes as far as February and March even. So, I am.

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Busy playing with the notion of transformed communities and I wanted to be appreciated as such. It's something that I'm still developing.

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So please do be kind when you. Major contributions right so I suggest that transform form amenities may refer

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So, transform for miniities, I may refer to all superlative practices. Often related to women and social productive labor.

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I suggest that transform for minute tense you know from the notion of to include social economic involvement that elevates women.

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For women that elevates remain power. For self and relational purposes. A woman who possesses transformed Fermanentity Performs also sharing productive work.

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And carries it out as part of their own social responsibility. To their kin and those in the surrounding community.

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This woman has a song as a strong sense of self-awareness. And a strong sense of agency.

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When married, she continues with this. Even if she is in collaboration with her husband. As long as that is aligned with advancing her interest and that of her children and her family.

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This woman is driven by personal ambitions. It acknowledges patriarchal systems and how they traditionally locate women.

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In. In, in domestic spaces. She is fully cognizant. That she has, she can be economically active by participating in in the regular job market.

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Instant, she chooses

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Instead she chooses to participate in economic activity. From the point of the household. Through exercising own agency, she expands limited resources at head disposal to meaningfully contribute economically and socially to the livelihoods.

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And development within the household. With all of that programs. With all of that progress which includes Managing all metals.

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Relating to the household. She claimed an important and significant power within the household. I think that brings us to the end of our presentation.

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Thank you very much.

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Yes, thank you so much for your presentation. I think we have now. A lot of time for discussion.

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Fortunately. So. I wanted to ask you both and also of course those who are listening.

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To say something about And also the intergenerational mobility the intergenerational experiences of social mobility Could you, maybe both of you, do you want to contribute to this?

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Point of, your argumentation.

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Who wants to?

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So.

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Mina, are you there?

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Yes.

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Of this migrant communities is John you understand it you know in the generational way. So that you can't really, if you take statistics.

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You could say, okay, this trick, silkron have climbed up. But if you look at this biocopies as these narrations you can see that all have worked on that project and that there are in this we are like in this case of I family.

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Yeah, there's a lot of sort of unlived life of the parents.

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That they somehow transform or transmit to the children and support the mother is supporting the children because she couldn't study and had very high high aspirations.

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And. And the delegates, her educational. Washes. And the father who was very politically very active in Turkey.

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Educates his children to be very very politically active from the very early on and it happens that the part of them 2 of them are also working in this room later on.

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So the parents were they didn't have formal education. But they were very actually very much in case in education in tape fields.

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I had given a short example about in an interview situation when I arrived. A day home The matter put a book.

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On the table and I was watching it was in Turkish. I can't any Turkish.

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But I could read that it was from Dostoyevsky. And I found this quite interesting that she somehow signaled that she's very interested in education and books and so on.

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And it came out here and and during the interview. But coming back to your question in mobility. So it seems that in the context of migration.

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So it seems that in the context of migration this social mobility is a family project of migration this social mobility is social mobility is a family project is an intergenerational, this social mobility is a family project is a family project is an intergenerational project and sometimes it's an intergenerational project and sometimes it's it one generation or sometimes 2

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dream, it's an intergenerational project and sometimes it's it one generation or sometimes 2 3 generations and sometimes it's it one generation or sometimes 2 dream generations that the aspirations are there but the social mobility doesn't take place.

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And I have concentrated on looking at education. So some mobility processes, social mobility processes to education.

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So they are a kind of social mobility processes to education. So they are different kind of processes to education.

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So there are a different kind of socio-mopility processes too. Maybe just. Don't know if it's enough for you to always.

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Hmm.

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Yes, thank you very much, Mina. And I just wanted to bring you in into a discussion with And I just wanted to bring you into a discussion with Sandia.

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And so it might be very interesting to hear from Sandia. So it might be very interesting to hear from Sandia.

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And so it might be very interesting to hear from Sonja. And so it might be very interesting to hear from Sonia what he sees.

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He've talked a lot and and showed is in this situation. But what's about the next generation?

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Could you maybe explain this a little bit further

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Okay, no thank you. first and foremost I would like to to highlight the fact that

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Most migrant workers, you know at the beginning of You know, all migrants are related to mining in South Africa.

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You know, was largely by uneducated men.

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In the main, that is. Significantly shifted particularly among the Younger mine workers. Most.

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What we call in South Africa metric which is grade 12 which is then last year of secondary education that you know before you can actually take up a post.

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Before you can take up, you know, higher education. Post schooling education. So that's one.

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So now this also mirrors itself in the household.

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Such that the women that are now managing these households. They refer to themselves as household managers. This is my major.

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Are also educated at least to that level.

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That on its own is exactly what enables them. To be able to spread. You know, these little monies received in form of either remittances or in form of social grounds as well as this societies, that they join.

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And part of their centrality or their locality being placed in the migrant household. It's self enables.

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Them to be able to provide social reproductive care. Which includes taking care of children and making sure that they actually wake up and go to school.

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Part of that, you know, is

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Is empowering, you know, for Most blacks are Africans and South Africans in the main.

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Education is the one thing that you can almost be sure that will begin to assist you. In terms of upward social mobility.

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And so because of the presence of these women, providing this very important structural support to children. As a compliment to men who are in their minds.

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Speaks to that, you know, to that. They are able to provide the supportive role but also mentoring.

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Their own children who do not have much cultural capital in insofar as you know education is concerned such that they take up education and therefore even do better than their own fathers in terms of you know, the type of work that they would be able to do.

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You know, coming out strongly among other things as evidenced by the coat. Where one of the students, I mean one of the, you know, the participants, the woman said one of their student was at the university of 40.

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So such as an example of how you know plays a role in terms of intergenerational mobility.

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Thank you.

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Thank you. I have one further question. But I don't see whether there are other questions here.

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In the room. I don't see.

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Yes, they are there are 4 questions as something

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So I can see this here. Could you maybe just, invite people to

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So, like, Johannes, I can take over the moderation in the room.

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Okay, thank you, Johannes.

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Who was first? Okay, so I'll just start here.

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Sorry. Hi everyone. My name is Lisa Halinda Planck. I am from South Africa.

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So with the first speaker I wanted to ask in in South Africa we have a Tim. I'm not sure if you will relate to the term, but I'll try simplify the term.

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It's called Black Tax.

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But maybe we could say, a millennial text, but I'm not sure in the UK how it works.

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But black text will be a term that originated from South Africa for money that black workers for instance especially professionals and others with higher income.

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Their parents, they would give their parents or siblings or other family members often out of obligation or deeply inbried sense of a family responsibility.

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So my question is in your context. Did you find that young generations who have moved up to water? In terms of helping their families, you know, did they feel?

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Was it some form of responsibility or application? Because in our context, there's a contestation around it around like text that is it a form of helping your family or is it now a form of helping your family or is it now a forced contribution?

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And then, for Sandra. In one of your slides, you state that women fully supports the migration of men.

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To the minds. Would you say that women in Bondalent fully support the migration of men?

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Because of the gender numbs. They have been socialized to us. As men are socialized to be the providers of the family.

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Another question that I have, I'm sorry I have a bit of questions. As we know that with my creation can affect those staying behind.

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Do you come across in your study or? Like the effects of migration come across, like the woman missing their husband.

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And the children being affected. A conversations around intimacy, you know, what happens or was it because just of provision always good and oh as well.

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And the last one, through the use of Iimboto. Did the notion of the female bird win a role transpire?

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That they regard themselves as bread winners. Or only regarded their husband as the plate winners instead of the financial contributions these women made.

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Listen, I think there was quite many questions. Should we let the people, the presenters answer first?

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Other people? There. I'll just go from row to row.

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Hello. Is this working? Oh, yeah. Hello, Camilo Try University of Wooch, Poland.

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I've got 2 questions to me now, because thank you for both excellent presentations, but I'm more knowledgeable about the German cultural context.

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So the first question is technical. How did you find your interview with and what was the opening question? Was that like standard life story history or something else I was just wondering because I want to know more about your project and the other question is more complex I guess because you mentioned this Pamu family living in transnational settings in 2 different countries

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and I was wondering what's their class position in each configuration because I believe that before migration their class position was different than in Germany and nowadays it should be the first option perhaps I know I'm just wondering What are their last positions?

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Thank you.

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Okay, one more and I think then we'll Have some answers.

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Thank you for 2 excellent presentations. In in a way my question I think links to your question. I've read Sangla's work so I know he's also used Bordeaux's work so I know he's also used PORTIOUS notion of happiness.

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In his presentation and I'm wondering I mean I would I would like to hear how useful the both of you find this concept because they they seems to be quite a dynamic dynamic process going on I suspect the Turkish family the pumb books had at high cultural capital and social status.

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In the context of Turkey.

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Even though they might come from a working class family and then migrating means that you lose a lot of that cultural capital and status in a new context and I think that's also what you and I think the similar things happen in South Africa.

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You might be a rural patriarch with quite high status in your community and then when you move to the mine you you become a mine worker.

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And so that move isn't only upward mobility, it's also downward mobility in some sense.

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In terms of that cultural capital. So I find the point about those twoevsky really interesting, because she was signaling distinction.

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In that in that context. So they seems to be, and in a sandal other way you talk about transformed criminalities.

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Signals that there is quite significant change happening within happy 2. So I'm just wondering, you know, from a structure agency point of view.

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How useful is our Betus? Isn't it too, too fixed and too structural to explain these, to explain these dynamic?

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Concepts, won't you rather go to Raymond Connor in a way? And I don't, yeah, so it's just a theoretical question in a way.

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Okay, awesome.

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Thank you very much for these excellent questions. It just keeps looking like they're going to keep coming.

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Spoke about gender gnomes. I literally wrote Habitas, you know, next to you know the question to say there is definitely something about you know socially reproducing that which you know, has been happening.

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You know before in terms of you know men continuing with migrant labor women continuing in some ways with taking responsibility.

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Of Social Audio Productive work within the household. The difference though.

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I think that what sets it apart, you know, from the historical notion of women in the house subjugation.

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How these educated women who have options in some way because among other things we have options to either take up work in the retail space.

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Because they are educated they have got many of them whom I spoke to had great trials and therefore could be absorbed by certain sections of that very limited rural economy.

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And yet they chose, you know, to take, you know, to continue with that. So in terms of explaining it, I would want to use the the notion of you know you know, habitat, but also there's a very strong sense of agency and hence it forms part of you know you know the very topic that

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I've I've chosen to use so far as a working title. Effects of migration.

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Definitely they are. I mean there are serious questions although I was not posing that question. You know they are serious questions around you know fatherhood you know that are happening absence of fathers absence of husband which you know, brings in the question again of of intimacy.

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Such that I mean it is no secret that in ponderland there is a lot of

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How did you call it? Without judging but there is a lot of infidelities happening. You know between

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Men and perhaps. You know, women that, Why to migrants, you know, specifically those that are absconded.

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And not coming home as frequent as they should. There are those types of situations, you know, that then challenge.

336
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The the the you know, their relations, marital relations. I mean, for example, one of them I performed, I did atographic work in one of the households.

337
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:33.000
In Ponderland and One very important. Thing that I needed to do was to Declay in the community.

338
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:45.000
Why is it that I would be spending so much time in families. Where the heads of the household are not there, you know.

339
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:59.000
And in one instance, actually, there was even a rumor. You know that you know almost gained serious traction but fortunately I used my own a cultural appreciation because I was researching my own home.

340
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:08.000
My own home village. So I had cultural appreciation that these would be some of the emerging challenges within the village.

341
01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:15.000
So I made sure that in every space that I was in, I spoke of the fact that I was here.

342
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:25.000
On schoolwork and therefore I'd be spending time in this how in this particular household for this and that a time so that it would be broad understanding.

343
01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:33.000
I can safely say one of the mother-in-laws. To one of the women I was working with was certainly not happy about this.

344
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:45.000
Such that he his own son had to call all the way from Rustinburg and assure that before I began spending time with that particular family.

345
01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:57.000
I had taken A trip to Rastenberg to go seek permission from him. You know, because although there might be these negotiated power relations between husband and wife.

346
01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:07.000
Culturally, one ought to appreciate you know that know they are still you know the in the African family.

347
01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:20.000
The father remains the head of the household no matter the appreciated you know negotiated power you know, power that can, you know, be at play within the household because of how women are taking up space.

348
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:37.000
You know and and taking charge of their families in a different way that incorporates economic means and provision and then to speak to the question about them seeing themselves as bred winners.

349
01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:44.000
No, they do not set themselves as bad winners. They see themselves as people who are complimenting.

350
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:52.000
On a 50 50. Hey, see the role of bread winning in the main as the responsibility of the husband.

351
01:07:52.000 --> 01:08:07.000
Theirs is to supplement it differently. Right? There's there's a lot of agency that really want picked up in terms of how they And I know you know some feminist arguments would be that I'm romanticizing.

352
01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:31.000
You know, a very deeply rooted agenda situation that has historical evidence, But you cannot argue with a person who is telling you no matter how many times you flip the question to say how do you view your position in this particular house they tell you mine is to do this you know And I think the when you afford a respondent.

353
01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:40.000
You know, their own respect. You are able to say, okay. I've got to be happy with this particular response no matter my own feminist standing.

354
01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:44.000
You know, all view on this particular notion.

355
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:48.000
Andres, yeah, no, the question of how because I leave it there, you know, but I hear you.

356
01:08:48.000 --> 01:09:02.000
Thank you.

357
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:15.000
Okay, thank you for this wonderful questions. He had first did a black text. This is quite interesting that you mentioned this because I have been looking at this.

358
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:32.000
When I started to do research. I was, I was not that aware. What kind of biographies I will get in Ricardo social mobility.

359
01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:51.000
Bit unsure artist people have they really climbed up So, and it has come out during the research process that while they have climbed up in sense of they have higher education as they parents.

360
01:09:51.000 --> 01:10:05.000
But to social position. Questionable. Some cases that the parents are supporting. And this child.

361
01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:14.000
And it's quite interesting because the The parents are guest workers from Turkey and 10 day, they arrived in the sixtys and they were working in factories.

362
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:36.000
And they could build up a sort of wealth, so they are owning a house in Germany and a whole new house in Turkey and this daughter has studied and is a university that is working at university.

363
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:41.000
But she is living in neoliberal times. That with short contracts and then she's divorced and has a child.

364
01:10:41.000 --> 01:11:01.000
So she's very dependent on parents still supporting her. So her social positioning is quite difficult. But there are also cases where there are other way around.

365
01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:21.000
There's a one doctor who is supporting her mother who is actually very poor. And she tells in this interview that, her mother who is very, who is actually very poor.

366
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:23.000
So, and she's, she tells in this interview that surely I support my mother.

367
01:11:23.000 --> 01:11:33.000
My mother has done everything to me that I have I could climb up so there is this So sort of a responsibility, this feeling of responsibility and reciprocity.

368
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:38.000
So we can make it. II can't feel good if my mother is not doing well.

369
01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:49.000
So this is a very, very entangled moment. And then to the second question, how did I find my interviewers?

370
01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:57.000
Yes. This is quite exciting and it still is because I started my research project during COVID. So it's the worst possible timing that you could have.

371
01:11:57.000 --> 01:12:23.000
So I was told to Lisha because it was planned that I'm going to direct biographical narrative interviews and until 10 I had only done this kind of interviews in person situation because it's very intimate and there's a lot of negotiations and so forth.

372
01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:34.000
And I have to start online. So first of all, this has been quite a big methodological challenge to me.

373
01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:45.000
And while I started Well, asking people, do you know some people, so a snowball method and it's a function quite well like that and I also contacted some some organizations if they have people who I could interview.

374
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:58.000
So it was a mixture of different kind. And it's quite funny. This pamphle family.

375
01:12:58.000 --> 01:13:21.000
I have interviewed, The parents and 2 children and I hope to get in this the youngest one also an interview from her because I interviewed the son as first it was actually not plan that I will envy the whole family all children but he said you have to interview my daughter, says sister.

376
01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:33.000
You have to in order to understand what in this family is happening. And so I could. Talk about more more about his family dynamics about which would take a long time.

377
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:47.000
So and yes very interesting topic class. Yes, how do you find? Actually I'm tackling at the moment exactly which is K question.

378
01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:06.000
At the beginning I wasn't that interested to work on class but now I have realized I have to think about this because this Pamock family they are, I would say they are quite well off in Turkey because they have this house.

379
01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:22.000
And then we take any code there and they come always to visit the relatives with lots of presence and everything and then they are living in quite in a very moderate way in in Germany.

380
01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:43.000
They have a little flat. And the children are also supporting. So they are giving help to them and now but they are also supporting their children so all of that money that is extra I have this impression it goes to the children and they also ask this younger daughter to move to them that she can spare money.

381
01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:57.000
So, This is something that I really need to think about more about this class because we know it's from my Crescent research so it's not that easy to say what kind of class position.

382
01:14:57.000 --> 01:15:10.000
But it's a things that I'm working on. Thank you so much. And pudding, yes, and happiness.

383
01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:27.000
I have been quite critical about this So actually I prefer to use the concept of biography but happiness is such a strong theoretical concept that you can use as a starting point.

384
01:15:27.000 --> 01:15:33.000
And my idea is to show that it's not enough when we look at the happiness. It can't explain everything.

385
01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:40.000
And for the most, it can't really explain the socio-mobility processes. So and social upward mobility processes.

386
01:15:40.000 --> 01:15:48.000
You need different kind of concept and biographical perspectives and the concept of buyer coffee is very helpful in this sense.

387
01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:58.000
Yeah, okay. Thank you.

388
01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:01.000
Was we have one more question in the room should I take it?

389
01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:06.000
Yes, please.

390
01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:09.000
Didn't want to display it on my own because I'm not the chair. Thank you so much.

391
01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:26.000
Again from my side, well done to both. Present presenters it's really been excellent so thank you so much colleagues so I have a few some of it's really been excellent so thank you so much colleagues so I have a few some of it have already been answered but I've already been answered but I'll try and see

392
01:16:26.000 --> 01:16:31.000
how far I've already been answered but I'll try and see how far I get without taking too much time.

393
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:41.000
I think my first question is to both colleagues and if you can reflect but maybe I should introduce myself. My name is Trevor.

394
01:16:41.000 --> 01:16:51.000
So, both of you in terms of reflecting on mobility, I want to ask you a question about family life.

395
01:16:51.000 --> 01:17:05.000
So both of you reflect on the absences and presence. And so it seems that this kind of dynamic fluidity of being present or being both present and absent at the same time is quite quite interesting.

396
01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:23.000
It's an interesting dynamic specifically of the way you reflect on that you know sunday in relation to you know even though the men are you know are not at home they're not presently at home but they still the household you know hints you example of having to go and seek permission.

397
01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:36.000
So I just wanted to ask, so this question around absences and presence or being absent and present, how does that impact the family life?

398
01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:45.000
When particular members of the family you know are not present you know given that they are moving between different locals or locations.

399
01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:55.000
That's the first question to both colleagues. Then I have a specific question to Sunla about your the concept that you are cooking.

400
01:17:55.000 --> 01:18:09.000
Transferred femininity I think I think it's interesting and I think it's good that one needs to push the boundaries and so I'm with you go for it but as you think about the boundaries and so I'm with you go for it.

401
01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000
But as you think about, well as you put some spice in. And salt and what ever in your pot as you cook your concept.

402
01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:28.000
I wanted to almost ask you so how will this transferred femininity be different to the kind of the role of woman as matriarchs in the typical African society.

403
01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:50.000
So for example, so we have almost So when I say we, I'm talking about scholars in South Africa and it's my own critique and because Potty I'm based in gender some of my work looks at gender we've almost wholesale accepted this idea that patriarchy is universal.

404
01:18:50.000 --> 01:19:13.000
But in in our context You know, women are actually quite powerful. But the way in the way in which you talk about that about you know the woman in fact you said something along the lines of women encouraging their partners to go and work in the mind so that they can maintain their power over the household.

405
01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:43.000
So it seems that you know this question around agency and we know whether we have the scholarship on African continent that women are not just these passive on the African continent that women are not just these passive recipients, that women are not just these passive recipients of male hegemony and so on and so forth.

406
01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:54.000
And the skin is it's it's the both both both colleagues but I was in in relation to your work Sandler, I'm just thinking about the concept of power.

407
01:19:54.000 --> 01:20:07.000
Have you given that consideration, you know, how do you think of power? Because obviously when we talk about social upward mobility.

408
01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:16.000
You know, it comes with a certain sense of power and some of our colleagues have asked about class positions, etc, because I think one's position.

409
01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:37.000
In this social hierarchy is also linked to power. So I just wanted if you can reflect on power, how does power, you know, influence and shape the relationships within these, these households and they're not just one last thing is you, is there a difference between a household and a home?

410
01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:46.000
Thank you.

411
01:20:46.000 --> 01:21:02.000
Yeah, there was no question here in the room. I think it's enough. For answering maybe

412
01:21:02.000 --> 01:21:13.000
Thank you so much for all these excellent questions. So let me just try and answer them bare chords.

413
01:21:13.000 --> 01:21:22.000
How old and home. I think there is a difference. In terms of

414
01:21:22.000 --> 01:21:37.000
What we often would refer to as a home state Perhaps represent. The notion of a household because It goes beyond the nucleus.

415
01:21:37.000 --> 01:21:46.000
Family, mother, children, but it involves the mother in law, the grandmother, the aunt, the uncle.

416
01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:59.000
Power play. The notion of power is It's definitely something that's very important because and it comes out in this work.

417
01:21:59.000 --> 01:22:09.000
And you, you, it comes out my work in the main way women begin to think of themselves. As household managers.

418
01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:18.000
There's definitely something to be said about that. There's power. Ascribed to the notion of being a manager.

419
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:23.000
And I think there is somewhere where I

420
01:22:23.000 --> 01:22:34.000
Where you, I think you post the question around, Female life and how it's affected and in in terms of trying to respond to that I wrote.

421
01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:47.000
There is a head of household. And then there's a manager of the household. And that's where the negotiation of power is, you know, because everyone takes up a particular responsibility.

422
01:22:47.000 --> 01:22:55.000
In one way or the other. But there's then that which then says Then the back stops with that particular person.

423
01:22:55.000 --> 01:23:05.000
So for example, in the context of Wonderland, If the young men and the family is ready to go to initiation school when it turns 18 or 20.

424
01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:14.000
Was to go to initiation school. What does he do? He tells the manager. The Mada first.

425
01:23:14.000 --> 01:23:28.000
Who will then go and advise the father who will then determine the date. So there is in some ways, you know, I'm just using this very loose examples to show you how the notion of you know power plays itself out within the household.

426
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:43.000
You know, and I do think it comes out as very interesting collaborative power and I do think I also like your mention of of the fact that and it's something that I really should look into.

427
01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:56.000
You know, when you mention of the fact that, you know, women are not these. You know, passive human beings while at the receiving end, you know, of situations or of patriarchy.

428
01:23:56.000 --> 01:24:04.000
You know, they There is an element very strong, in fact, element of resistance are particularly amongst African women.

429
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:21.000
And yeah, and I think around the question of literature and matriarch and matriarchs It is something that I think I would rather not respond to, but something that I would instead just read up and see how that would help.

430
01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:34.000
I that enhance at that which I'm trying to work on as a concept. And all very well run with the with the with the martiarch you know an opposition.

431
01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:45.000
I'm not sure there were a number of questions but I've tried. Thank you.

432
01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:52.000
Oh, there are other questions in the room.

433
01:24:52.000 --> 01:25:02.000
No questions anymore. I would like to answer this 2 questions. Absolutely. First about the agenda power relations.

434
01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:09.000
Yeah, I could talk about this a lot. These families. Actually, I take Pamuk family.

435
01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:15.000
It's it was obvious that in this family father is a fret winner. So he is putting the most money.

436
01:25:15.000 --> 01:25:28.000
And the mother is, I would take your words, you spoke about household manager. I'm family manager, I would say.

437
01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:39.000
She is managing also the interview city. And she is very strong. They wanted to be interviewed together. So it had very interesting dynamics.

438
01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:53.000
In this in this situation. And they really have a particular responsibility. So it's quite interesting how it's a chanted in this family.

439
01:25:53.000 --> 01:26:03.000
How it also takes place in this in TV situation. And about absences and presences. I need to think about this more.

440
01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:14.000
I was just thinking about Pamuk family because there's a very strong need to keep every everybody together.

441
01:26:14.000 --> 01:26:23.000
So there's a one daughter. This oldest one where there was so vague conflict in adolescence.

442
01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:33.000
There is a bit more distance and she is also, she's visiting occasionally. She's not that near as to to others.

443
01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:45.000
So I was just thinking in reference to this question of absence of presence. I need to think about it more, but there's in family dynamics and then it's in agriculture mobilities.

444
01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:54.000
When they are moving across the borders and maybe I need to think about this in Ricardo social mobility.

445
01:26:54.000 --> 01:27:03.000
So there are different levels, levels to think about this. Thank you so much for this question.

446
01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:07.000
Yes.

447
01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:21.000
If there are not no more questions, I have one to both of you. I think it would be also very interesting you you touched it a little bit, but to systematically look.

448
01:27:21.000 --> 01:27:45.000
At the gender relations in the second generation. As you know, in migration in Europe, it's very clear we have every evidence quantitatively qualitatively that women in the second generation are doing much better than Man, then young men.

449
01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:55.000
And, we have some hypothesis about it, why it is such, but I would like to know from both of you.

450
01:27:55.000 --> 01:28:10.000
Whether you saw this in your cases and. How it comes out in your research.

451
01:28:10.000 --> 01:28:15.000
Who wants to, reply first?

452
01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:28.000
Yes, I am here. Look at it is not something that I particularly looked at because the

453
01:28:28.000 --> 01:28:40.000
The question around women in my own study is something that I that really comes up much, much later my research.

454
01:28:40.000 --> 01:28:47.000
But I think it's also something that is quite evident. And I think I did try to mention.

455
01:28:47.000 --> 01:28:52.000
That the type of woman who is in the

456
01:28:52.000 --> 01:29:04.000
Bondo household as a household manager today in South Africa. It's certainly doing a lot better.

457
01:29:04.000 --> 01:29:16.000
Than the person. I mean, than the Bondo woman who was managing the household, you know, some 30 or 50 years ago and there are reasons for that.

458
01:29:16.000 --> 01:29:28.000
I mean South Africa has got a very clear you know, history of a part date that relegated African people black in particular into the margins.

459
01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:33.000
And that of course is fundamentally changed.

460
01:29:33.000 --> 01:29:40.000
I mean, similarly, this plays itself out again.

461
01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:59.000
Amongst, you know, mine workers were men. And women, you know, for that matter that in terms of more mobility they are doing much much more better because they've got a much more improved and understanding of how finances work.

462
01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:16.000
They've got a better understanding of banking systems. They are much more because of, infrastructure development in South Africa that is enabled oscillating migration you know to happen much more rapidly.

463
01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:30.000
People moving between their homes and work happens much more frequently. It it it it it encourages you know a particular type of You know,

464
01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:44.000
Contribution into the household that in its own self even affects They are own class positions in terms of, you know, their material conditions, something that was not really.

465
01:30:44.000 --> 01:30:55.000
Powerful you know in in the previous generation of mine workers even in the previous generation of women who were wives to mine workers.

466
01:30:55.000 --> 01:30:59.000
Yeah, let me just leave it there.

467
01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:07.000
Yep. Yeah. First generation. Yeah.

468
01:31:07.000 --> 01:31:26.000
So I don't know if you you heard that proof but this is, so the point that is being made in the room is that, you know, these are not second generation of mine workers, but also this is internal migration.

469
01:31:26.000 --> 01:31:34.000
And and and therefore it it the question of you know that type of mobility does not really play itself out.

470
01:31:34.000 --> 01:31:38.000
You know as it would in terms of

471
01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:44.000
External migration.

472
01:31:44.000 --> 01:31:47.000
Okay, your turn.

473
01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:53.000
Yeah.

474
01:31:53.000 --> 01:32:19.000
Okay, it was Lafi. Thank you so much for this question too. About gender relations. I have to say that in my sample I have conducted in the with people who are educationally successful and have experienced social and have experienced social upward mobility and have experienced social upward mobility and have experienced social upward mobility. And I have females and males.

475
01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:22.000
So in this regard, I have females and males. So in this regard, I can first say anything.

476
01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:33.000
When I look at the families. Of those people that had been interviewing I can see something interesting and actually something that hints on.

477
01:32:33.000 --> 01:32:41.000
Gender differences. Because as you saw in a Pamuk family, the sun has some problems.

478
01:32:41.000 --> 01:32:50.000
Do carry out his studies, his skips, the university studies, but it has something to do with his health.

479
01:32:50.000 --> 01:32:59.000
But he is, he is somehow in a process he would like to finish because he says in the interview, I need to finish because I started.

480
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:05.000
But there's no intrinsic motivation for him to do this. Then I have a couple of other families.

481
01:33:05.000 --> 01:33:23.000
Where, where, female children have studied. And main ones not. And the last case that I, at this family where I made an individual was quite interesting because They had also treat your girl.

482
01:33:23.000 --> 01:33:39.000
2 female and one male one. And all had studied. Females are also graduated and the son He started.

483
01:33:39.000 --> 01:33:48.000
But then skipped off. So today's something quite interesting and I was just thinking what this is.

484
01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:54.000
Because you can't just say that it's a female male thing. There's something more, I suppose.

485
01:33:54.000 --> 01:34:05.000
There is something because this educational aspiration or delegation from the parents is very, very strong. And there's also a question who can resist.

486
01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:19.000
Who can say, and in this last case where the son skipped the studies. He just said, well, I'm not the person who who really enjoys when studying engineering.

487
01:34:19.000 --> 01:34:23.000
And he, he is now working in the care sector. It's quite interesting because it was the idea of the father he should do.

488
01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:39.000
The sons should do engineering and he's a very sensitive fine person and I can really understand that he's in care sector.

489
01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:51.000
But he doesn't have and in Germany it's not a university education. So, The difference do other countries maybe.

490
01:34:51.000 --> 01:35:12.000
But I think this is something that I need to think about more. So it's I'm a bit worried of to say yes, females do it like that and males like that but I think it's more work to look at this in the generational, effects.

491
01:35:12.000 --> 01:35:17.000
Okay. Perfect.

492
01:35:17.000 --> 01:35:33.000
Yeah, thank you all. We Have a bit more time still. Are there still questions?

493
01:35:33.000 --> 01:35:35.000
In the room there are no more questions anymore.

494
01:35:35.000 --> 01:35:56.000
Oh, I think this was a very rich and interesting session and I think we can start from this with new ideas and, So I thank you all and I think we can close the session.