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Oh.

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okay, good afternoon. Everyone I am Associate Professor of Sociology and Public policy at the Indian Institute of Technology. And I'm sharing this session today. we all know the sessions name is bringing nature in human wildlife interactions. And we have a bunch of interesting tables.

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Before we start, I would like to read out

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the acknowledgment of country on behalf of everyone gathered. I pay respect to the spirit of country here in Erim, where we are meeting, acknowledged the past and present Colon nation

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won't go wrong as a sovereign people here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the aboriginal law, custom, and custodianship responsibilities for country

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and the people. That country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

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I recognize the importance

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contribution that first nation thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant way of thinking. We thank all first nations delegates in the room today for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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Okay? So first. well, the session has been organized by Tyler, who's from University of Toronto, and I believe, a Phd. Candidate.

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Okay, great.

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So The first speaker, I hope, is

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online.

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I

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well, I don't see the first speaker.

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Dr. Platin. from the United States.

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 Dr. Clinton, are you there?

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I think so so should we move to the second online speaker.

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Dr. Diller.

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Deniz Diler: Hello.

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yes, I'm I'm here.

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Okay, great. So I will stop sharing my screen. And you please start sharing your screen. Okay, thank you.

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Yeah. Please go ahead.

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Deniz Diler: Okay.

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Deniz Diler: Can you all see it? It is it fine?

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Yes. Would you like to go to the slide show. Yeah, thank you.

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Deniz Diler: Yeah. So I'm just starting right away.

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Deniz Diler: Okay, hello, everyone. And today I'm going to talk about inter disability fields, or political ecology and critical animal studies, and compare them in terms of their commitments, existing intersecting research and possibilities of a dialogue between them

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Deniz Diler: in the future. And like, now, yeah. So first I will go

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Deniz Diler: through commonalities and commitments or objective. So both fields. For this I use introductory or foundational books and articles from both fields. You can see the references here.

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Deniz Diler: so first is, they both have an emphasis on the political, and they distance themselves from a political, ecological or rights frameworks.

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Deniz Diler: and the second is their primary focus is on the intersectional oppression of humans and non-humans. There. The third is their emphasis on the capital is foundational, extractional nature. And it's inhabitants.

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Deniz Diler: And

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Deniz Diler: Ford is qualitative and participatory methodological approach with the incorporational activist knowledge. So both fields promote activist based knowledge and work with a variety of groups, including grassroots, activists.

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Deniz Diler: policy organizations and Ngos.

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Deniz Diler: and the last one is commitment to actions, structural change, justice and sustainability for all beings. I will get into more detail for each point now.

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Deniz Diler: So for politically, allergy, the cluster of crisis we are facing today cannot be considered separately from power, relations, injustices, hierarchies, by that are entrenched in our societies that allow violence to be directed towards some populations. The political and political ecology dies from this perspective.

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Deniz Diler: There is nothing a political about how we use or extract or live with nature. Our relations with nature are, in fact.

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Deniz Diler: in fact, constituted

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Deniz Diler: constitutively political, and depend on interrelated human loan, human, often profit-driven, accumulation-centered exploitation.

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Deniz Diler: Therefore all answers to the question, What is nature? Are necessarily political

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Deniz Diler: political ecology aims to both, provide a critic of dominance, a political approaches and put forward alternative ways of action and terrorization.

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Deniz Diler: And Marxist political economy has an important impact in understanding structural inequalities that are based on growth, profit, maximization and capital accumulation that leads to environmental degradation, resource, depletion, exploitation of workers and indigenous people.

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Deniz Diler: and in politic ecology often overlaps with the this discussions of the growth that problematize growth as a social objective and proposes a systematic transformation to an alternative anti-capital society on the basis of equal distributional resources, commons care and so socializing the means of production instead.

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Deniz Diler: and similar to political ecology, growing out of the criticism of the history of apolitical ecologies. The term critical animal studies was developed in contrast with a political mainstream. Animal studies that reified animals as science symbols or images without reference

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Deniz Diler: to the materiality of the lives of living animals.

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Deniz Diler: Cass is overtly political as similar to political ecology. It includes activism and activist knowledge alongside its academic concerns.

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Deniz Diler: The critical is used as an expression of the urgency for action. During this time, also, she ecological crisis and widespread entrepreneurialism in human nature. Relations.

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Deniz Diler: Cash recognizes that material and symbolic exploitation of animals, intersects with

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Deniz Diler: and helps maintain dominant categories of gender, race and class and in return. These categories help maintain the continued exploitation of animals.

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Deniz Diler: So

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Deniz Diler: for the survival of all beings, earth liberation that is, in satisfied with human animal lives should be attended to bring about the politics of total liberation.

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Deniz Diler: similarly, a cast criticizes mainstream animal studies for ignoring the embeddedness of exploitation of animals within the current capitalist economic system.

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Deniz Diler: and calls for a deeper understanding of political economy or animal breeding, husband and agriculture.

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Deniz Diler: So what are the possible 10 tensions between both fields. One crucial difference between political ecology and critical animal studies is the fact that C is specifically an explicitly concerned with linking theory with action only how for other animals.

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Deniz Diler: whereas political ecology is mostly concerned with why, there's also ecological and natural systems which

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Deniz Diler: includes non-human animals. But it's main emphasis is on the human nature, relations, power, relations among humans, and discussing the possibilities of sustainable features.

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Deniz Diler: Considering that capital is industrial and our agriculture is a major contributor of climate change, global warming, the frustration, water use, health crises and appropriation of land and animals of indigenous people.

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Deniz Diler: an ecology without a discussion of an end to global global, industrialized animal exploitation would be a political and it's insufficient in achieving a sustainable world.

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Deniz Diler: So there are many political work that political ecological work that's focused particularly on the harms of industrial as animal agriculture. But an alliance with casks could rain first, the urgency of paying attention to the exploitation of animals and could subvert political ecologies, anthropocentric tendencies.

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Deniz Diler: even though

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Deniz Diler: politic ecology doesn't have a particular focus on non-human animals there is recent and growing interest in, and non-human actors as political agents that impinge upon the human.

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Deniz Diler: Well, nonhuman animals have social interactions with human groups. They form collaboration with others. They also resist them, bringing about political engagements and transforming each other along the way. Therefore they have agency.

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Deniz Diler: So for robins political ecologies, emerging concern with non-human, also a lot of serious consideration or ethics that's around political ecologies, especially in the case of animals.

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Deniz Diler: That's the growing interest in non-human agency and ethics could be a puzzle point

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Deniz Diler: junction points for the dialogue between politicians critical to animal study scholars.

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Deniz Diler: and in turn politicians supply the necessary tools on discussions for the call for Veganism cast strongly advocates a per full. A proposal for Veganism could be any position. All privileged groups, when many indigenous people and subsistence. Farmers rely on animal products for their survival.

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Deniz Diler: Political ecology can undertake a context. Specific research with the participation of civilians and activists to understand power, relations and economic dependencies in a particular environment, and work together with inhabitants for social transformation, autonomy and food sovereignty without imposing rules and regulations on already exploited people to stop the practices they rely on.

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Deniz Diler: so the call for Veganism should not resort to food, policing or shaming. The degree to which a Vegan diet is accessible or favorable, differs according to people's abilities, income, and structural barriers along the lines of race and gender.

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Deniz Diler: and the perspective of political ecology can aid these discussions within Cass.

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Deniz Diler: Further, more Vegan food can indeed be more expensive, as it has become commodified and commercialized by green capitalists.

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Deniz Diler: What cumbersome called cruelty-free capitalism.

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Deniz Diler: Therefore it is necessary to also investigate how environmentally friendly and worker friendly we can process products are.

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Deniz Diler: And P,

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Deniz Diler: particularly college account, also inspire cast scholars for a better understanding of the structure or economies

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Deniz Diler: under capitalism and guide them about complex ecological systems.

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Deniz Diler: So for this detention review

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Deniz Diler:  to research, they investigate the research with overlapping interest in

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Deniz Diler: and critical, honorable studies, commitments. I scan the issues or general political ecology and journal for a particular animal studies, and I search animal Studies

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Deniz Diler: bibliography, which is a really great resource from Michigan State University.

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Deniz Diler: And I also research a Google scholar for text that included both towards political ecology and animals. I I abstained from including research that incorporates animals only as a matter of interest for their usually utilities or harms for humans.

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Deniz Diler: and also the research animals that did not refer to why their concerns for ecological environment. So that inequality issues

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Deniz Diler: for the objective of this paper, I limited the analysis to the revision of articles on book chapters. my lack of inclusion of books means findings of this paper is not wholly representative of all the works written at the intersectional political ecology and Cas. Yes, I suggest that I was able to identify some general teams which can point to the possibilities of such a collaboration and dialogue in the future.

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Deniz Diler: overall. The articles were written with the concern for an interest in animals and their environments, power, relations that shape and constitute nature and animals with where we're in degrees. So emphasis on non-human agency

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Deniz Diler: in spite of their differences in with their if they stress animal liberation. For example, it is fair to say that all of their people's position, animals, and practices, and discourses about the animals as widely political

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Deniz Diler: generally. The articles also mentioned, and problematize a variety of contrasting discourses about animals.

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Deniz Diler: and that are considerably influential, or how they are conceived that has had resulted in material consequences, especially for animals, but also for the environment and the livelihoods of humans.

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Deniz Diler: So, despite the fact that the articles very substantially in their subject matter and conceptualizations and research methods. 2 dominant teams can be identified among them.

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Deniz Diler: So the first theme is. and these are the articles I

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Deniz Diler: I was able to find you can just consider them as examples, because I mean, I carried out this research in 2,020, and there are more

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Deniz Diler: articles today, then then. Erez agmoni. So the first team is the focus of farmed animals in industrial breeding and feeding operations that are part and parcel for the globalized and commercial agriculture businesses, 150,

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Deniz Diler: usually controlled by a complex corporate state alliances. In addition to an inquiry, inquiry into how capital Cows, chickens, and Salman are commodified and subjugated into living in confined farms and without any concerns for their welfare articles that adopt this team also problematize environmental devastation

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Deniz Diler: that is caused by these factory farms and the loss of livelihood. So local and indigenous people, questioning how peasants and poor communities are disproportionately affected by capital. Animal husbandry is only another form of environmental racism.

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Deniz Diler: and the second team centers on animals who are not farmed and animals, but those who are subject to conservation. For example, elephants and birds.

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Deniz Diler: Those are considered wild like cougars, and those are companions to humans as pets.

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Deniz Diler: The articles within this team investigate human level and tang them in and

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Deniz Diler: in the former relationships, and our and or conflicts in specific contexts, dwelling on discourses, practices, encounters all human?

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Deniz Diler: No, he and he, non-human and agency, or animals that bring about distinct human andable entanglements

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Deniz Diler: in search of research methods in terms of research methods. They often rely on intensive field work participants, observation and observation of animals in their living spaces, some of them referring to their research as examples of more than human geography

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Deniz Diler: so overall, I believe the articles from the 2 general teams demonstrate an intersection of both political ecology and critical level studies perspectives.

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Deniz Diler: and they address how the animals and the relations between humans and animals are constituted in diverse environments, with the inclusion of conflicting discourses of eating, protecting, and conserving animals, one

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Deniz Diler: the while paying attention to the distinct histories of like localities and social, ecological, political implications of not human non human animal assemblages.

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Deniz Diler: Nevertheless, one difference between the teams is that while the research on farm animals provide an explicit critique of the capitalist political economy.

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Deniz Diler: often promoting the development of an

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Deniz Diler: The articles of the second team were rather implicit in their political stance for providing a critic of the capital system, but they brought about that brought about complex dimensions.

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Deniz Diler: So I I suggest that an alliance between political ecology and critical animals, for this could allow for.

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Deniz Diler: But I love for going beyond this backwards of meal farmed versus wild animals, to show how they all become commensurate for extraction and exploitation in the hands of capitalism, and emphasize the necessity of imaging and working towards an alternative future or just so just society for all beings

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Deniz Diler: as a geographer met here again, they, from University of Cambridge, discusses in regards to politic ecology and

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Deniz Diler: urban political ecology and political ecology has been slow to catch up with more than human developments across different fields. And there are many potential areas such as non-human agency, animal labor, non human infrastructure and

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Deniz Diler: human animal zoomosis relations that need to be explored. Well, thank you for listening. Yeah, these are my references. I can send them to you if you want. So just connect with me.

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Deniz Diler: Thank you.

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Thank you. Dr. Dinner, for the interesting presentation.

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So if you stop sharing your screen, and then.

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Deniz Diler: Hi, I just did. Yeah.

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And then need to do this.

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it should.

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Yeah. So the next speaker is,

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Dr. Gibbon from Anu. And we look forward to your presentation.

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You know how to actually is problem for us. Yeah, I mean, also, this is the one right?

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Thanks. That's great. Thank you very much. Hi, everyone! I've just changed my title slightly. And so it's now called

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Wilding sociology, making kin with snakes. And so that's what I'm going to talk about. I'm I'm just going to

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move on because we've really done our acknowledgment of country, which I completely obviously

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I absolutely endorse as well. And so I get what I'm going to try and do in this very short time I have. It's just thinking about some of the conceptual influences that are underpinning the work I'm doing at the moment with and for snakes. And I quite like this quote from gamin here that says on this version of re rewilding. In order to be whole and fully actualized, humans have to learn to overcome the artificial and toxic ways in which we have separated ourselves from nature.

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re-whlding in all cases entails a re-invisioning. I find that really really helpful to work I'm doing. And

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again, just reflecting on that previous talk as well. And and you know my perception of the underlying anthropocentrism of mainstream sociology, which, of course, is not a new thing for us to say, and there's lots of nuances and sociologies of broad charts and people do different things with non human others. But I think you know, I I really want to look at how sociological methods and theories can be diversified.

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and we did to better account for more than human relations, cognitions, positionalities, socialities, oppressions and struggles. And this is particularly from the perspective and experience of animals.

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and I'm interested in.

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So I'm drawing a little bit on the work of Jack Haverston in my work and their concept of wild and wildness, I find it really helpful, and this is kind of like referring to an entity that is indeterminable, boundless, and beyond restrictive categorisations and governance.

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and and undisciplining sociology is really at the heart of this, and and it's really orientating sociology to the boundaries of other disciplines and systems of knowledge. And that might be You know, it might be ecology. It might be computer science might be indigenous knowledge's perspectives. I really come at my work these days with a, you know, a very strong ontology of interconnectedness.

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cosmology, and making kin with more than human others, and I'm drawing particular Halloween's work there that I find really helpful to make sense of what the heck I'm doing all day with snakes. in terms of my work with them.

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and

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my kind of research is very committed to eco-social justice by incorporating ecological imaginaries and techniques, and through in situ, observational entanglement, educational work and ethno epistemic transformation. And what I'm talking about there is really

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how I'm trying to work as this interlocutor between the snake, the figure of the snake, and people's everyday fears and concerns and anxieties and hostilities towards these and other wild animals.

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And really what motivates me in the work I'm doing now is obviously. And again, we're all probably on a very similar page here, a sort of a real recognition, visceral recognition of the real and significant threats

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facing the environment from human encroachment, climate change, contamination, biodiversity, loss, and, you know, disasters, and so on. And what's very interesting for me is that snakes, as as you know, very much from a sociological perspective, are constructed in everyday discourses as the archetypal figures of the wild and wildness.

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and and that is for lots of different reasons. They have this kind of anarchic presence. They're ambiguous how they look and how they move. They don't have legs. They're cold-blooded ectothermic animals. So it's lots of things that humans have generated this sort of separate separatism distancing from these animals, which I find very interesting. So what I'm doing is looking at. What insights can snakes contribute

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to the sociological imagination in terms of understandings of ecological approaches, human exceptionalism and environmental coloniality? How can detailed analysis of their eco-social conditions of life and welfare contribute to social, ecological understandings of the health or otherwise of contemporary, human-dominated input systems?

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How can a sociological imagination, imagination contribute to ecological, imaginary, and practices to understandings of interspecies, conflict, and oppressions. And how, of course, could it be otherwise?

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And so

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I'm not going to spend too long on this. But This is just setting up through some you know, some images here, you know. Where does this fear of snakes come from, and where does it come from? I was very much a product of our culture and history.

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and I'm particularly alluded to the fact here that around about 40%. So about half of you in the room have a fidiophobia. So it goes for you, having some mild to strong aversion to the figure of the snake.

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It's one of the most common, reported phobias, and for for me, yes, there might be some kind of primitive dimension in our brains that recognize the figure of a snake as being something from all the maybe. Who knows but what I can absolutely say as a sociologist is that these kinds of cultural representations of the snake, the fact that it's seen as this other malevolent figure.

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specifically as it's been constructed through the Book of Genesis would be a major cause there. And this quote, so the Lord says, said to the serpent, because you've done this cursor, you above all livestock and all wild animals. You will crawl on your belly, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. Now, you know, I think

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media headlines, etc., about the risks that these these figures pose to. You know, colonial frontiers of killing lots of things. They are very much seen as problem wildlife and

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because we know very little, ecologically, socially, about these kinds of taxa, and we have constructed mythology about how they behave and how they operate. And you know they're aggressive. They'll chase you. I hear that all the time I hear that all the time the snake handler. And and so you know what people don't understand is that this kind of behavior that you're seeing from this instant Brown's name here.

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defensive behaviour, defensive posturing. It's because we are encroaching all the time on to their homes.

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and we have colonized them, and there are, and places and habitats they live in. And so, of course, this is resistance for me. This is defensiveness. This is piss off humans. You hear me. And so my job as a sociologist as this interlocutor is trying to take what knowledge I'm building ecologically about these animals behaviorally into the community and trying to transform those kinds of narratives from these dominant, prevailing, entrenched ones

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that very much set up states as as objects dehumanize the first line. Object to be violently eliminated or excluded from the landscape.

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and I've just put some posts up here from. I've just drawn off social media. You'll get these every single day. Any post and camera notice board group.

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I just think everyone freaks out. you know Derek's massive attention. Capital! And this kind of sensationalism which I find incredibly infuriating. And but also, you know, it's all Easter brown snakes that have been violently killed for no other reason than the kinds of dogmas that are there couched in

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in terms of yes, yes, they can be dangerous. These things we're dealing with here. People don't know how very, very.

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but it's very much you know. It's very much the ways that these kinds of everyday myth making and fears around their behaviour and their threat and their risk, and really dominates how they are treated by

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humans! Now, I'm just going to play this clip here

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because I thought you'd find this interesting. This is Eastern Brine's day. Yes, the world's it's just screwed on the ground. Snake has gone into it. That is, where is truly doing my do my other work as a snake handle our licensed snakehander in the experience capital territory

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rescuing this state from death a death sentence at the hands of in this case of inverting human waste being left.

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And I sort of play this to you because I just think I I think it shows you the kind of attunement that over the years doing this is 2,016, working day in day out of these animals I've built up with these animals in terms of how I handle them, how I communicate with them all the rest of it, and how I want change the moral rock representation of these figures culturally, socially, so that people can realise just how vital they are as agents in the ecosystem.

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So I'm just going to play this for a little bit, as I continue, because I think it's just interesting for you to see. And this this guy here is Australia's most feared snake without dyes. The Eastern Bryan's Day is responsible for the most-looking, for in Australia, it's true, but on average every year it's only about 2 or 3 tragic to those people tragic to their families, friends. But it's such a tiny little percentage. The probability comes to harm for these animals is so little. Yet the fiat.

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it's so disproportionate, it's so exaggerated. And I love this bit at the end of the video. This is the same snake.

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After a little bit of treatment at Dr. Smith's law being being released back into the wild, we circulated.

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which I just doing this kind of work. I find it incredibly meaningful. So many levels. okay, how am I doing for time? I've got a little left. Excellent.

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Okay, good. So, snakes, as I said, are integr integral to the ecosystem, and they serve as key signifiers of ecosystem health and or fragility. Their population numbers, their bodies, their conditions tell us so much about human encroachment, urbanization to examination, etc., etc. So they're really interesting. They also play such an balancing force

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in that environment, too. Let me see if I can get on to the next slide without messing this all up. Oh, there we go, beauty!

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And so

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the key and aspects of my work at the moment are, how can we improve the conditions of the life of snakes and reduce the risk bird and they confront? How can humans learn to make room for snakes and come to value their long-standing presence and impact in the ecosystem and the sort of wisdom that is bundled in that body for 10 million years of living on this continent and surviving on this continent?

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How can process of urbanism, biophobia, and biodiversity lost the offset.

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and what I do is 2 different things of 2 different social practices of social practice, one level you've seen. I I reckon these animals I get called up all the time to go people properties to caps next schools, hospitals you name. I've been there.

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I take them. I take them out of trouble where they've seen as a problem in in need of, you know, some kind of solution. And and I research them in terms of the ecological stuff. And I also use what I call encounter, where I take them to the community and show the display. Let me talk about and and and and and and I research them in terms of the ecological stuff.

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and so this re-presentation action I'm also engaged in, and this gets us on to the last bit of my talk, which is kind of the work I'm doing, the ecological work I'm doing where I'm obviously researching Eastern Brian snakes and urban fringe.

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and and what I'm doing here is I'm sort of shadowing and learning from brownstick by putting radio transmitters surgically and planting them into the solemnic cavities of these animals while I'm not doing a wildlife set called Dr. Arian. Lo is doing it, for my great colleagues agency are doing it at the top right the screen.

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and that gives me a year where I can track that animal through like that's me in the middle of doing that and find where that animal is, and start to build up a map of how that animal uses habitat, how much time it spends in back yards, what its rain size looks, how these differ between different individuals depending on traits and the habitat they're in.

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Approximately 200 of these animals have now been microchiped by myself and colleagues, and but measured. And we take photographs of them. And to look at their kind of movement, ecology and growth over time, genetic samples and the population structure dynamics. That's actually that bottom right is a very sad one. That was a stake that we put Francisco, and not more than 30 h after that animal being released

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after the commitment surgery. It was dead, killed by a lot more in a nature reserve of all places. And so what this research is just showing just how much pressure these animals live their lives under. And I said, they're so invisible they're not well represented. They have very few advocates. This project is all about increasing their legibility, so we can start to better coexist and live with them.

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This is the kind of cool stuff that we're doing. I'm just getting there now the top and you can see here this is Beth, and it's these red dots. We've trapped bed over 14 months every single day. It's about going out and finding bed and taking a few occasion to build up a sense. How does bed move around the landscape? How much fidelity that you have to place. And what does she place me? And what the project is really driving is that they're looking at is how the snakes respond to translocation when the

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are caught by idiots like me, and then moved 5 kilometers away. How do they experience that port displacement from a particular habitat? Home range that they have

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cool stuff we're doing here. Statistical MoD, old ecological models about how range is utilized differentially.

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And that's all the kind of stuff I'm going to run out of time now, so I better hurry up. This is just to show you the really cool

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underneath those stone steps. Now, unfortunately very quick. I don't know. They had to be relocated from that spot because the owner didn't want beds living in their property, and they'd better turn to the exact same burrow 8 days later. Then Vegas moved 1.2 5 kilometers away, and 2 weeks later

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what a way to finish! And Beth was dead because Beth was moved to a new area, and she clearly was disorientated

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in that new area. She was moved to and couldn't find a safe place. They could see those red dots over there just for those red dots there. She started to make a massive, erratic movement profile and it up bed on that road there, and you can see that. Yeah, like, there is a borough which she was using which is so curiously close to the road, and there so I'll finish on that point about You know the kinds of ways I'm trying to restore in here

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by doing all these different kinds of public sociology and public policy events, and really

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and changing that moral representation. And hopefully, it's you character

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project.

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Thank you, Dr. Kevin, for such a fascinating talk. And the research. I must admit I'm from India and India. We have a snake. God and people worship Indians by, and larger, quite religious. But I must admit

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majority of the Indians have snake phobia, including me. So it's like, really very fascinating research.

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Okay? So the next presentation is by Dr. Penny from the University of New South Wales.

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It's a step. It's a step. Everybody has to go through that rights of passage. Take me another year or so, please. So we go here.

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okay. So good afternoon. My name is Penny Wood. I'm here today to talk to you a little bit about my Phd research, which is exploring the use of relational paradigms for understanding human wildlife, coexistence.

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So my aim for today's presentation is to hopefully make some connections with those of you who might be working in the relational space and share my successes and challenges so far in adapting relational frameworks to the study of coexistence

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 so the desire to connect with the world around us is an incontestable and ancient feature of what it means to be human. Human communities have driven immense pleasure, comfort, and cultural significance from our relationship with the more than human

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beyond our unique bonds with domestic animals. Our connection to wildlife provides billions to the global economy, while a desire for ongoing conservation and Of other species drives governments, Ngos, private industry, and individuals to devote time, resources, and passion towards urgent policy, financial investment and long-term action

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in the contemporary context of shrinking physical space and the diminishing resources of a third age, of anthropologically-driven ecological decline, its compelling interest in the study of coexistence with the human and more than human communities, to try and divine a way for us all to survive and thrive sustainably.

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However, the history of humanity's relationship with wildlife is a story composed of diverse and complex experiences, standing for mutually beneficial enterprises through to mono-directional acts of exploitation, and all too frequently destructive episodes of conflict.

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So this picture provides a visual example of the familiar challenges faced by coexisting wildlife and human communities the world over.

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Here a dingo. Australia's wild cannon faces off with a crowd of tourists at a beach in the peri-urban region of the Mile Lakes, New South Wales. An interaction with the potential to influence the relationship between human and dingo community members in significant ways.

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While researchers understand that managing interactions with wildlife will continue to play a significant role in conservation. The frameworks and theories we use to interpret and respond to coexistence often receive much less scrutiny, and than the interactions themselves. Despite playing a vital role in shaping. How we interpret what we're seeing.

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Moon notes that few natural science studies identify philosophical positioning behind their mythological choices. Norgrad notes that in turn this ontological ambiguity can limit the tools we have available to respond to increasingly complex conservation challenges.

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The first chapter on my thesis assesses this by using a scoping study of 20 human wildlife interaction papers to identify the methodological trends used to create knowledge and understanding about interactions

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utilizing heuristic approach to develop. I mean the aims, methods, methodologies, and data analysis. Techniques of each paper were considered proxies for epistemological positioning. Early results indicate a prevalence of methods used to objectively explain and predict interactions, including non-experimental methodology and methods which only use quantitative data.

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Additionally, 72% of studies aim to explain or predict encounters, while only 20% aim to understand them.

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These results mainly indicate, it may indicate, and the existence of an epistemic community within human wildlife interactions research that values an objectivist view of these relationships tending to construct the relationship or research under the assumption that it is possible to discover the objective truth about the interaction that is empirical, verifiable, independent, and individual, of social thought. Experiences and conditions.

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Indeed, objectivist approaches have been seen to shape current definitions of coexistence poorly outlines 3 prevailing definitions of coexistence in contemporary conservation literature. These approaches all define coexistence as a desirable and idealized goal state where conflict is entirely removed or reduced

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problematically. Goal-based approaches rely on someone to define observations as desirable or undesirable introducing value prior to the observation

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in this context, sociological data gathering is designed to focus on acquiring best outcomes from narrow groupings of within human communities. Indeed, with the data from my scoping study, this was reflected by 17 of the pavers, focusing on farming communities who added economic or subsistence-based instruments in reducing or restraining wildlife populations, reflecting and understanding an understandable, if not all too common conservation triage approach.

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Numerous authors, such as Yates and Epstein, have effectively argued that this focus can risk neglecting the proper, a proper valuation of understanding the ecological needs of the more than human entities.

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and minimizes the importance of pluralistic knowledge of the natural world. Particularly sidelining, indigenous communities and other groups have kinship or holistic views of relationships with wildlife.

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Indeed, Machini knows that over time this framing of coexistence has reinforced a focus on rationalized calculations of costs and benefits at risk of sustaining and creating or creating conflict between empowered and disempowered actors.

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Returning to our friends in the photo existing frames of coexistence might position the assumed economic value of the tourists at the center of this analysis, identified and read, identifying conflict to be part of the interaction that might reduce or visit a numbers or their expenditures.

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The dinger itself might feature in a limited way, focusing on mono-directional relation to humans, for example, on population numbers, and the proximity of packs to popular campgrounds and hiking trails.

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One element that is missing is an understanding of the reciprocal relationships that may be at play between those who aren't features such as permanent residents or indigenous communities, and the dingo itself in its broader shared environment.

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Here we are seeking to understand how these entities coexist, but we are not considering the potential diversity involved in the co of coexisting. nor can we account for the equitable capacity of each entity to affect and be affected by each other, and instead reduce some participants to passive recipients of others. Actions.

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Fuceti. Note that instead of emphasizing the removal of conflict, and maximizing the so note that instead of emphasizing the removal of conflict and maximizing the instrumental value or costs of interactions, coexistence, research should concentrate attention on improving and nurturing human wildlife relationships.

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This work includes acknowledging and considering the well-being of affected human and animal communities as both ecological and social members of a single system.

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seeing as classical objected. As paradigms have been challenged by this representation so far in seeking to study human wildlife interactions, I turned attention to the possibilities of relational paradigms.

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Relationality is both an ancient and emerging paradigm for human wildlife reations, while Welsh notes at least 24 contemporary relational academic discourses. They also contend that rich relational paradigms have existed in indigenous thinking, for millennia, identifying some common threads through both.

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and a physically relational thinking has several distinct characteristics helpful to understand and coexistence.

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all relational ontologies, position, the relationships between entities as fundamental element of their existence, positioning, that possessing that forming the formation of an entity occurs through rather than outside of relationships.

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This conception of reality is linked inextricably with an epistemology that seeks to acknowledge the construction of information through relating this is understanding of knowledge that is both pluralistic and inter subjective.

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The axology and mythology of this paradigm are broadly bound in the idea that all beings are possessed of the agency to construct relationships, and accordingly are of equal value

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rather than agency, being something that we can turn on and off. It is an inherent capacity for entities to affect and become in their affecting.

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In fact, agency is one of the core concepts of relational thinking. For the purposes of my research I am working within the Western new materialism paradigm which concept conceptualizes relational agency as distributed across living networks.

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So what does this mean for coexistence? If all entities are agents possessed of agency located with manifold relations, then coexisting cannot be a linear formula, but is instead a co-constructed and reciprocal way of of interacting relationships that are already existing. Before we come to look at them

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on this slide I have a visual representation of the current conflict removal Flammer as a formula

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where humans, animals and wildlife and the environment minus conflict equals coexistence. My conceptualization is something I am so far calling carbon. This stands for consistency, coexistence as a relationship based ontological network. The idea is to capture the entanglement of 3 different entities, and how these connect with each other to construct and already to construct a view of an already existing coexistence scenario not linked to conflict removal necessarily before it's analyzed.

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While not exhaustive. So you could break down these connections. Further, this frame is attempting to present a sociological model which positions the social and ecological worlds as already intertwined rather than separate experiences that must be recombined through comparison.

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My hope has been that this diagram can focus on on the Kinets, not only on the conceptualization of coexistence, but also as a conceptual guide for creating knowledge about coexistence. however, the practicality, practicalities for applying this apparatus in the collection of daughter and daughter analysis, our current challenge, I'm experiencing

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my case. Study model is the interactions between Bingo and humans in the Perry urban fringe of mile lakes in Northern New South Wales, asking relational questions that speak to the agency of participants becomes complex when you consider the diversity of matter and the form that those participants take.

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because we are currently limited by the fact, we can't ask the dinger about its experiences. We have to acknowledge that the starting point for our understanding may be the human.

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Considering this, my focus became about how to best acknowledge this human starting point and take active steps to consider the responsibilities this entails to the more than human participants within the interaction.

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Turning back to my new materials paradigm, I sought to take some of the possibilities offered by a gentle realism.

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Our digital realism offers a way of looking at the world that emphasizes how everything is connected and constantly changing, and how our own experiences and perspectives are shaped by our understanding of an interaction in in and with that world.

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Here the focus is not on objects or things, but rather entanglements, relationships, and phenomena that are reconfigurations of our responsibilities to fellow fellow participants in this emergence.

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Consideration, or adoption of these elements provide opportunities to align coexistence, study with existing philosophies, world views, views, and practices, such as indigenous ways of knowing that are excluded from instrumental models.

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So with this in mind, I came to focus, not on developing a rigid framework that inputs static elements, but instead, on the and gentle entanglements of relationships across entities, through time and space. To do this required, I develop a methodological approach which was flexible to emergent themes and able to incorporate both interview and ecological data representative of both human and more than human participants.

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While my data analysis is in its very early stage I can outline for you the plan steps for my mythological approach. So step one involved conducting 65 semi-structured interviews across the mylex community, encompassing a wide, wide range of interviewees from farmers to tourists, land managers and local residents.

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Discussions were framed around in identifying the relationships participants had with dingoes. Nature, the self and other human members of the community.

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Step 2. to analyze the resulting data, my second step will involve using thematic narrative analysis to build profiles of the entanglements experienced by human participants with each other, dingoes and nature.

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Some early themes have included entanglement with human stingers in the seasons, entanglement with a sense of self and caring for the dinger entanglement in places of physical meeting between species.

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to allow them creation to remain alive, to dinger and environmental agency and to be responsible for having a human starting point. My plan for step 3 is to further refine these themes, using questions on 3 related elements of a gentle realizing.

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these elements appear valuable for understanding coexistence in terms of creating what comes to be known as reality, and how it becomes meaning for and for whom?

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Well, I don't have time in this presentation to specifically walk through these questions. They fall broadly into 3 categories. The first being interaction. Where agency is being recognized in the system? The second being, material coming, what is becoming? What is the capacity of agency recognized as? And how might we acknowledge its movement through through the system? And, thirdly, was responsibility. Who has the power, through the making of this becoming

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so narrative of an analysis allows the ability to include a broad range of data from interview responses through to document and empirical evidence.

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My fourth step for my first step, I intend to identify where in these themes, prompted by human meaning, making of interviews and by the elements of a gentle realizing that ecological information might enhance narratives. 1, 3 theme might be entanglement with a specific space and include data on dingo ranges, their behaviors or individual interactions that took place in that environment.

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I've been partnering with Dr. Neil Jordan and Taronga Zoo at the Mile like Stingo Project, who have been openly welcoming and sharing their ecological data, and this is hopefully going to really enhance my stories.

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So to conclude, Is my hope that this project will contribute to developing a flexible and and replicable approach for utilizing a gentle realism. To better understand the co-construction of coexistence that takes place between humans and wildlife.

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From my analysis I also hope to better understand the unique entanglements taking place between Dingo's humans and nature in the Mile lakes. Through this understanding conflict may emerge as a feature of an entanglement, but it will not be presupposed, and will be informed by multi-directional understanding of the relationship between participants.

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So far, data analysis has only just begun. Further challenges to come will be refining how my gentle questioning may affect narrative development, ensuring that my relational narratives conceptualize the metaphysics of relationality, appropriately, and determining how best to present narratives as convincing tools for project partners in wildlife management.

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so these are my details. If anybody has any interest in anything that I've discussed. Please get in touch.

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Thank you, Penny. I must admit that you are from the presentation, it seems your your Phd. Research is empirically very rich. It's so congratulations for that. Okay, so next speaker, we have Tyler.

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The floor is yours.

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all right. thanks everyone for coming to the presentations today. So

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I'm also the organizer of the session. I just want to say that there's actually another presentation right after this one. It's embedded in my presentation because we had people join a bit late after the conference program was all

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already set. So there'll be one more after this one.

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and I just want to also say that Angelina Toronto is another Phd. Student from Canada, and she inspired me to make this session. So we have her to thank for being here today.

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Okay, so the title of my paper is invasive species, material facts and cultural meanings.

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a computational analysis. And I'm coming from the University of Toronto.

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from the Department of Sociology there.

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and from the lands of the Hunoshone, Wendat, and Nishinawi confederacies.

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All right. So this is the outline of the presentation. I'll go through an introduction. Talk about the methods of the paper, give some preliminary results, and then include

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all right. So to introduce the paper. The general idea is, I'm trying to add culture to invasive networks. I'll unpack what that means.

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So the question around which I'm doing that analysis is this one.

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So what gives such a non-native species the meaning of invasive, while others do not gain this meaning.

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So I'm talking about the biological non-negative species, like, for example, in

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Australia. There's the cane toad here which was brought over to, I think, control different beetles on sugarcane plantations. It's a non-negative species.

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But then it exploded, and now is considered invasive. But there are a lot of non-new species in Australia and everywhere else in the world by now.

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and some of them don't gain the meeting of invasive, or don't keep the meaning. So I'm trying to figure out for a government body how they ascribe this meaning.

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and then, for the literature I'm contributing to. It's the social construction of environmental problems, literature.

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And yes, as I said, I'm using this concept of invasive networks to contribute to that literature.

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So the general idea of invasive networks is that option? We talk about the traditional ways to say Ok, the cane toad is

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invasive by a certain degree like trying to figure out the invasiveness of a particular species.

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So the invasive networks method is to say how invadable is a whole sociobiological network. It's a relational ontology.

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P. Of us talking about the

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but unlike Penny, I'm going to use a pretty objectivist approach here. Ok, so the point is that what I'm doing is trying to add

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trying to figure out a way to add culture to discussions of invasive networks. So culture is part of how invadable sociobiological networks are.

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If you're in a place, for example, where people never label species as invasive, which is an emergency word which can galvanize action, that can be part of what makes

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that particular place more invadable.

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I'm using a very quantitative approach because I'm working with biologists as well and trying to work in this space in between biology and sociology, where quantitative data is the one that is most communicable.

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So this is an example of an invasive network that the guy who came up with this concept, Paul Robbins, putting his article about this

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so it's very complex. But

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what I want to draw your attention to is that culture doesn't feature prominently in this picture. There is one on the right side there that says agraphoristry, land cover goals met. So goals. You can say there's culture coming in there. But it has been easier when talking about this concept in the literature to talk about the material pathways.

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and there actually hasn't been that much uptake of this concept in General Hull Robbins is a very famous geographer, and usually this paper is just ritualistically cited for random reasons. And so we're trying to actually build a research tradition about invasive networks at the same time as trying to figure out a way to add culture to them.

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So yeah, so it it has been unclear how to add culture into models of invasive networks. And that's what I'm trying to do.

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And I will I use computational and count-based methods to derive meaning of invasive species in this presentation I'll be talking about the computational methods.

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So to situate you about where I'm doing this work and the government body I'm studying. So this is a picture of Toronto and the surrounding region. Toronto is

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in Canada, in a province called Ontario. called, and the black line there that you can see is the boundary of Toronto. Then all those colorful areas on the map are different watersheds.

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So for those of you who need a refresher of what a watershed is, this is a bit of a an oversimplified explanation. But it's basically all of the rain that falls on a particular area will concentrate in one water body.

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So if you have the Humber River there.

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all of the rain that Falls. We'll go through groundwater and tributaries and things into the Humbert River.

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and what has happened in Ontario is since the 1,900 fiftys.

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The management of a lot of ecological problems has been on the watershed basis. So they've created these things called conservation authorities, and I'm studying the one called the Toronto and Region Conservation authority which has jurisdiction over all of those

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of watersheds as a whole.

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So a lot of the ecological management of Toronto is actually at that watershed-based level. And I'm studying how the Toronto and Region conservation authority makes meaning with invasive species.

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Okay, so to introduce to you a little bit about invasion, biology, and management. This is what's called the invasion curve.

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It's this typical X-shaped curve that was actually first conceptualized in Australia. And what it has is these 4 different management

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methods based on how prevalent a certain non-negative species is in a region. So, for example. a silver carp is a species that hasn't made it to Toronto yet, but it's on the way from the South.

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and it's at the prevention stage. So at this stage people spend a lot of money trying to build barriers, or in other ways trying to prevent the species from arriving. and species like this one, which is as Asian longhorn beetle

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are at the eradication stage. So it's in the Province. It's in the Toronto and Region conservation authority area, and they still have hope that they can eradicate it. So they've cut down over 100,000 trees trying to get rid of this.

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They haven't done yet, but they have made a little progress. They are still hopeful that they can stop it.

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and there are species like goldfish which are impossible to ever eradicate, because people just release their goldfish all the time, but they're pretty easy to catch. People don't really care if they get killed in the. You can do it kind of quietly, so it's possible to get rid of them in certain areas.

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I'm going to return to that issue of acuteness and killing animals. But

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okay, and then there are species like a garlic mustard which is extremely hard to get rid of. It's all over the province. It just finished flowering, and I was, if you're riding the train going between cities or something. It's just all over the roadsides

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and the seeds are viable for 50 years. So even if the thing hasn't been in an area for 40 years. Suddenly it can come up again. So it's impossible to eradicate. And

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that's

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yeah. It's at that long-term management stage.

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So I'll be referring to this a little bit, as I show you some of the preliminary results where I'm relating abundance to whether things are invasive which I'll introduce next.

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Okay? And also just another like biology refresher. Not all non-native species are considered invasive. So of all the non-native species in an area, some portion will be considered invasive. Some portion will be considered naturalized or benign.

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a species that basically just die out automatically. and a bunch of them will also be unknown. There's so many species arriving every year. You don't know

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how invasive they are.

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If you thought about abundance, it would probably look something more like this. The invasive species are more prevalent, and then

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it kind of looks like this. This is more like the diversity. These are not the exact proportions, but just to get you this idea that not all non-native species are invasive.

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Okay, so now, that's the end of the introduction moving on to the methods.

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So I collected biological data, and this took the form of Toronto and Region Conservation authority, monitoring records.

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Royal and and Royal Ontario Museum records, and I combine these.

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And then I also collected textual data. So this was from the Toronto and Region Conservation authority, which included meeting minutes, internal documents, news articles they produce

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and external external government documents that they referenced.

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And I have some ongoing data collection as well. I'm creating all these data sets, which is extremely labor-intensive, as you all know, who've done this before. So I have a bunch of other things I'm collecting. such as like some economic variables like the cost of controlling the species, the cost in terms of economic losses.

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The social acceptability of controlling the non-negative species like, I was saying before, the goldfish are fine. But if you're going around shooting birds. People get worried about that and then invasion curve classification. So if you think back to that invasion curve, the ways species get meaning also matter in terms of where they are on that curve.

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And I'll describe that in most detail of out of all of that.

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Okay.

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so for that, all that textual data. The kind of analysis I'm doing on that is called word embedding. I also did some basic counts. But what I'll be presenting today is about the word embedding.

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So word embedding is a computational method to assess how invasive the meaning of a non-negative species is. In this case.

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This is the technical definition of what word embedding is you? You represent a word as a point in multi-dimensional semantic space that is derived from the distribution of word neighbors. That probably means not much, but I I have a way of describing that as more pedagogical as well.

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So I have 70 species that I have collected these embeddings. For

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so this is the way to describe in more understandable terms what embeddings are so essentially when you run the embeddings on a large text. Corpus like this is how Chat Gpt works and things like that.

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What they do here is figure out how close different words are to each other in the corpus. So in this situation

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you can see that a garlic mustard is pretty close in distance to invasive in the way that you could eventually do this. This is just pedagogical. This is not results, but

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and anyway, so the distance between garlic, muster, and evasive is much shorter than the distance between invasive and Chinook salmon. So then you would say that

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garlic mustard is more invasive in me.

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It's a basic way that that works.

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And I'll be presenting some data. And essentially, we're subtracting from one so species that had the value of one would be extremely invasive, like the most invasive possible.

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Me, like, like, say, like the invasive is at one, and then from there you're minusing different distances.

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Ok, so this is a distribution of some of the top species. So the top one there is dog strangling vine, a plant

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in the area. This is the general distribution of some of the top species

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that are non-native. So that's the only classification I'm forcing on this. We're seeing how people at that government body use invasive. So these are non-native species.

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And this is the whole set of all 70.

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Okay? And then this is the picture. I it's like the Take home message. So

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on the y-axis. Here we have invasive meaning with the embedding's data. So as you go up on the y-axis, you get more invasive

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meaning. So this is the that's the textual part. And then on the X-axis. They are biological records. So the further you go on the X-axis, the more records there are.

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So this next part I'll do a quiz. So we have birds are orange. I don't know if you can see that. But the bird on the far list right there

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in the species that is hyper abundant. But interestingly. it's not so close to the meaning of invasive. It's about in the middle.

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So it's not a linear relationship. So I'm wondering if people from anywhere, really, because this bird is everywhere in the world. I saw some in Australia wondering if you can think about which species is so common that a lot of people have kind of given up thinking about it as invasive.

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How sparrow? I heard it.

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Yeah, very good. Then this other one.

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I will do a second quiz. But this is a European starling. So another bird that is so abundant, and people have kind of given up on it, and this comes back to the

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cuteness principle we were talking about before. That was not in the official notes. But anyway, where you people don't really want to go around like capturing these animals. So they're in part of the invasive designation. Is this issue of how controllable are the species based on all the social factors.

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Okay, if we take out those outliers.

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we get this picture which you can notice is also not linear.

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So we have this interesting. Okay, so just to show you some of the species on this picture. So

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the top one is dog string we combine as we've been talking about.

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And then there are these 3 fish species at the bottom here, which are, if you look them up like you say Ontario, Chinook, salmon. So Chinooks on the middle. Everyone will talk about it as naturalized. So the method did really well to figure out these different

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positions. But going back to the shape. So this is the shape of the data.

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If you take out the outliers, if you had the outliers, it kind of just trails off.

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But you can see here that

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we can say that invasive is part of this invasive network in the sense that as a species starts to establish.

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Often there's this kind of emergency

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warning thing that invasive is used to say, people say, Oh, no, this new invasive species. It's not native, it's increasing a lot. And then the invasive part is used to try to control it. It's part of the controlling framework.

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Then that trend goes down a bit, and then, as it gets more and more invasive, that just totally goes off. So if you think back to that invasion curve, once you get the long-term management stage.

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you can see that the emergency quality of it has faded, because now we're only talking about it, in other words.

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mostly other words, and not using invasive. So much.

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So going back to the question, the question that I'm trying to answer here is what gives certain non-Ne of species the meaning of invasive, while others do not gain this meeting

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and method matters to the embeddings did highlight important meaning? I don't have the comparison with count data, but the embedding did really well.

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and abundance does matter. But the relationship is not linear. That's the take home message.

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And as I said, I'm going to look at these other variables as well to try to understand those differences.

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And then

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And just to remind you what I'm trying to do here is quantify cultural meaning

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by contributing to contributing to this idea of invasive networks, and I'm contributing with that to the social construction of environmental problems. Literature.

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Thank you.

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See, if this works here.

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there we go.

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Thank you, Tyler, for the interesting presentation, and I must admit I would like to share here. When you mentioned about the house parrow right? It's everywhere. Deli, which is the capital of India. Unfortunately, the House sparrows have disappeared.

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Yeah, it's you will not find a single house, Pharaoh, in Delhi, and that's because of massive organization and concrete jungles coming up. Yeah, but it's the house pairs a day in the rest of India, but not in Delhi.

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Yeah. But the State government of Delhi is working hard. How should we get back the house far as again today.

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anyhow? Thank you so much. So the next presentation we have

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From Mexico, Rod, you and Ennis. So please

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thank you.

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Hi, everyone, and thanks for being here, and thanks particularly to Tyler, who has been really kind to opening this space for us.

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so what we're going to do today is to propose a a critic of this legal phenomenon that has changed in the last couple of decades

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of recognizing nature. Either as a whole! The whole by Asper, as a legal subject, as an autonomous legal subject, with independent rights, and in Lebanon, legal and independent to human interests.

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or some particular entities, like drivers, as in New Zealand or Melbourne. But it has happened in

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at least 70 countries in the world, and not only in the States. It has also happened beyond the State, for instance, in the rights of Nature tribunal, and it's a a non-binding people tribunal that just a condensed Mexico actually, a couple of months ago, because of the major train. The Maya train is a huge mayor project that is going to kill at least 9 million or 3.

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So what we want to do in this presentation is to pinpoint the limitation of this new legal form of nature as a legal person.

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So how are we going to do that? How it's using Pasha canis theory, Of legal as a background, and Pasha Canis was a Marxist Soviet legal theories from the beginning of twentieth century. Who are you? That Similar to economics the League up. So object in the law

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works, or it's an abstraction of a formal, abstract, equal subject with of possible egotistical interest to others.

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And this is very visible in. In courts of law. You have to defend your rights in a sense that I, right, become a commodity that you oppose to others.

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and so we we want to. If to question this solution, because if what is driving us to our extension is one of the problems that we understand nature as a commodity, it seems at least problematic now to understand nature as a commodity owner. Right?

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A.

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So this is, start us a theoretical academic proposal in the seventies and the eighties, but it has come into practice since 2,008 in deck with our Constitution.

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and then New Zealand, and then Bangladesh, Columbia, among other countries, and this has triggered a huge debate in the literature.

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so we have found at least 3 positions. One is what we might call the a pro rights. advocate

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who argue against anthropos and dreams, and follow ibiocentric or eccentric perspectives.

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they recognized legal, personal to nature and some general or particular rights, like, for instance, the right to sue or the right to restoration. and they also borrow war bills from in the Unus. Some indigenous peoples like Pacha, mama from Andean people.

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and they understand rights as tools in this new legal biofuel there are others, what? Because they write a skeptics as that they, I support the idea of legal parentshood, but they are skeptical of the discourse of rights.

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Brides have been a a Western position that have excluded women, a slaves, a black person indigenous among others. So it's a bit problematical to use this in a new and masibatory way.

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but some of them still are supporters of the idea of legal person who, to nature, for instance, like the New Zealand case, that it's a bicultural board with representatives of some Maori people and people from the State in the world, one.

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And even if this kind of new strategy of green capital is.

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And finally, we found a metal rights.

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A.

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This kind of fabricates have, like one foot in the law and the State, and one foot outside of it. They are aware that

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a mainstream jurisprudence is based in private property. so they need to go beyond that.

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So, for instance, Gaddinus proposes the idea of ecological Meta citizenships, and he talks about Florenceania. Florenceania is a new understanding of People in the Amazonians that understand political citizenship as interrelated to a jungle, and how environment territory and politics are tackled.

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but we think that even with these proposals they they have in question the the core of now understanding the legal subject

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and the whole Bios fare, or or a river as a league obs of. Yet that is a problematic. And now it is going to talk a little bit more about that thanks.

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So how do we position ourselves in in this debate? So, as Rodrigo was saying, we are.

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We have a Marxist spatial canis perspective that understands legal personhood, not as a tool, but more as a mask to protect our antagonistic interest. So we use John Holloway's argument about maths on how a must give us a role and identity that limit our rebellious acts. So now with the

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of rights, we're putting mask on everything so biological or metaphysical, centered or not, people, corporation governments, non-human animals, reverse or cultures. So in the context of the Socio

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ecological crisis, we see how law is interwoven with a kind of green morality that absorbs the language of indigenous people and the and of environmental movements.

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And we see this not only with rights on on nature, but with different actions, such as solar or wind parks. In.

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in indigenous territories, ecosystems in protected natural areas, agro-business in forests, lithium mining for electric cars. So we find these green solutions that seek to hide the ecological damage.

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And in Latin America we have seen this mainly with progressive governments that have play a key role, and a lot of scholars have been pointing this as kind of a contradiction. But I I was talking about this on another panel on Monday. I have identified this as a way to neutralize resistance and path, the way to reactionary attitudes and practices.

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So in the case of Mexico, we see how an eco-indigenous rhetoric is justifying mega projects that are devastating nature. So by considering indigenous as closer to nature, the government has find a perfect alibi for a State capitalist in times of collapse.

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But if we move forward with the position of native communities in Mexico towards law, we see that it's quite complex. So Rodrigo was saying about the Maya train. And actually, my own communities are the ones pushing for mother's rights against the Maya train.

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So

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so we need to be careful with this, and we also see, not only in Mexico, but in different parts of Latin America and worldwide, how, Native communities use the like language, the legal language and procedures.

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One example is how they demand respect for customary law, and how they use the legal system to protect their lives and territories.

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So we might think this as a contrarygemonic use of law. But if we move, for instance, to Sabatista communities in chapel, we we have seen this, that that the

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use of law is not only instrumental because I don't know if you knew this, but since the late 90 eighties well, the Sabatistas have been pioneer in defending the rights of women. So they they enacted the revolutionary woman's law that not only protected and granted rights to women, but also femin aside the juridical subject. So we see here not only an instrumental use, but constitute

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 framework, that that is at the same time modifying what we understand by law and modifying also the way indigenous communities are being organized.

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So the problem when we translate this to the.

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to nature is that, and

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in right now we are reducing the sociological crisis to the language and the vision of the law. So, on the one hand, we find that pollution, suffering, violence, disease, disposation or destruction

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is just.

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are reduced to crimes or on constitutionality, economic compensation. On the other hand, we see how the experiences of resistance, solidarity, conviviality on dignified rate are neutralizing the language

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of the law, for instance, being just constitutional cases. so can we think,

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the the law and rise of nature only as a tool. Of course it is better to understand nature as and as a subject than as an object. But we need to consider how it also dilutes, worldview cosmobicion, as we see, we say in the Spanish of native communities, and how we are encapsulating ecosystems as individuals.

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So just to conclude well, this work is also a work in progress. So at the moment we have perhaps more questions than answers, and one of the main questions is, how can we act in, against and beyond the law to protect life. So one possible solution that we have been seeing is the gift economy.

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But for us it still reduces

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everything to to a commodity, because even if we talk about the Commons, or we are still trying to take care of things, and we are not transcending the human nature divide.

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So we are pushing more to to understand this as a mutual recognition. And this is based on our work and a component with indigenous people in Mexico for over 15 years, and our learnings with them

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to on on how they understand the territory are something that brings together the past, the present, and the future. And that is not only a physical space, but what a space that entangles!

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of course, non-human animals and the river, the stars, the the lake, the mountains, but also festivities, the language, and other cultural forms.

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So, of course, with this we are not pushing essentially this vision or romantizing indigenous perspective. But we are trying to bring together what we have been learning and trying to open this space that can help us to rethink us in the world and avoid our extension. So thank you very much.

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Okay.

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Okay. thank you very much. All the

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there he.

433
01:21:23.580 --> 01:21:26.350
So should I up. I I can also, I mean

434
01:21:33.770 --> 01:21:50.049
so before we, you know, formally start the question, answer around. I just have to make one quick comment for you en ignis from Mexico. I understand some work in progress. So, but I really look forward from really some interesting publications coming out of it. It looks to me really very

435
01:21:50.190 --> 01:22:02.740
very fascinating. So I'm sure the work in progress. I really look forward for some really good publications coming out of it. Okay. So now the formally the floor is open for question. Answer round so yes, please.

436
01:22:03.270 --> 01:22:05.899
please introduce yourself to the audience.

437
01:22:13.120 --> 01:22:22.859
and I'm Sergeio Costa from the 5 of us at Berlin, in Germany. So thank you so much for this really fascinating thing, so

438
01:22:22.960 --> 01:22:32.099
fascinating presentations. I have questions for Penny and for Dr. Gray in this, and I'll try to be brief.

439
01:22:32.210 --> 01:22:58.970
And the first questions for for you pain is much curiosity, because you use the concept. they. You don't use the concept conviviality. in. As mentioned the concept, you talk about a coexistence, but there is a long traditional things like convivial conservation, and so on. This is a concept which is very well embedded in the sort of relations you are

440
01:22:59.000 --> 01:23:18.860
studying. The curiosity is how you don't use this matrix of reality. And then the question in itself is, you emphasize the importance of agency also ages of non-humans? But they think, is that how do you see agency

441
01:23:18.860 --> 01:23:36.019
of humans and non humans? Because this is, of course, the big challenge of sociology is to understand, to interpret, to understand the meaning attributed by humans to agency to their agencies. So since Max Weber, there has been, let's say.

442
01:23:36.140 --> 01:23:49.570
one of the core aspects of sociology. And how do you see this in case of non-human agency. Do you see also construction of being attributed to these non-human agencies?

443
01:23:49.670 --> 01:23:55.410
Because I think it's for me important to understand your whole framework.

444
01:23:55.420 --> 01:23:59.790
and then to Rodrigue in this quite brief.

445
01:23:59.840 --> 01:24:28.389
fascinating, but what was not clear for me is, if you are If you are against let's say in environmental law. us! Let's say As a as such, or you are against this sort of attributions to rights to nature, because if you are against environmental law, I think this could be contradictory, as I see, of course, with your attempts, because

446
01:24:28.610 --> 01:24:39.069
I'm quite sure that I environmental law, if it is enforced. This is a way of, let's say, separate spaces of the planet

447
01:24:39.070 --> 01:24:59.420
from the spaces of a kumpkata accumulation. If you have, I don't know indigenous territories. If you have some protector areas, you are separated by creating barriers for the expansion of capita accumulation there. So, therefore, 150

448
01:24:59.440 --> 01:25:06.729
about how critic you can have for the law. But you need law for containing G to accommodation.

449
01:25:10.980 --> 01:25:12.429
Would you like to respond?

450
01:25:13.170 --> 01:25:51.010
 thank you for your question. I am only saying, gently, familiar with conviviality and the conceptual ideas involved in there. I come from an environmental sciences and ecological background. So the way I have dealt with co-existent studies in the past was very specifically to do with the practical and mythological implications of studying coexistence on the ground in humans and edges in a sensational context.

451
01:25:51.010 --> 01:26:00.170
So that has, I do acknowledge, the limited. What I'm looking at from that point of view, and the way that I can see. The agency in this perspective is

452
01:26:00.170 --> 01:26:15.699
to deceive it in the metaphysical sense from Barad studies, so as the idea that instead of coexistence being something that we search for and reach for in a goals. So you know, in conservation, science, coexistence can focus a lot on

453
01:26:15.710 --> 01:26:33.259
how we create tolerance within a community. For example, I found that to be quite narrowing in terms of what I was looking at, so I brought in relationality specifically from that metaphysical standpoint, because the gentle realism deals with agency as the idea of

454
01:26:33.560 --> 01:26:51.179
all entities of any kind processing the ability to affect an interaction and to have effect on that interaction. So for me, it was more a vehicle for understanding how I'd bring in a wide variety of different types of data. So instead of just focusing on, say, for example, 150

455
01:26:51.180 --> 01:27:03.810
tolerance or attitudes, or, you know, a biological function to do with how many are in the population of a specific species. I'm using metaphysical relationality as an idea of

456
01:27:04.440 --> 01:27:27.560
an opening space for me to question what relationships are there, and to include any that become part of me of meeting making. I do admit that, you know it is particularly challenging and quite limiting to bring in human. It's a non human, or, as you call it, or more than human agency? But for me, that was the point of trying to have some questions like and gentle realist questions that were part of

457
01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:36.979
how I form those narratives, so that I was not only understanding what the meaning-making was from the human point of view of it, saying, Okay, if this is what the human meaning making is.

458
01:27:37.250 --> 01:27:46.470
how does that affect the other participants? Where is the power? Where who is being responsible for the construction. And how does that affect how they viewed, for example, with the fingers

459
01:27:46.480 --> 01:27:57.640
where I was working in the Mile Lakes, they began as a more of a pest species in their conception that over the last 15 years there were some really pivotal studies released to do with the

460
01:27:57.690 --> 01:28:21.299
genetic security of of being using that space which has changed in conceptions to perceive them as a test to something they're proud of in that environment is something that has its own value in that space. So yes, it is very limiting. But unfortunately, I I said, I can't ask the dingo what they feel, or how they experience, or I'm working. I guess, with what I can at the moment to try and and have a more diverse perspective.

461
01:28:21.860 --> 01:28:22.600
Any question.

462
01:28:29.410 --> 01:28:36.889
Thank you for your question, and said, Here, yeah, I think that we didn't say this in the presentation. We forgot about it.

463
01:28:36.920 --> 01:28:58.500
and we have been working with native communities and rural communities defending their territories. So of course, we understand the importance of using law, and how they have helped them to to block or make kind of some obstacles in the disposition of the land, or contamination of the land, the devastation whatever.

464
01:28:58.680 --> 01:29:14.819
But, We think that we need to transcend this, that we cannot put our effort just in reducing nature to the language of the law, because in that case we forget that the struggle is more

465
01:29:14.950 --> 01:29:18.060
more like like larger, because

466
01:29:18.240 --> 01:29:27.610
we are not representing the state form, and we are not transcending capitalists. So that's a problem for us. If we stay with the law. I don't know if we can.

467
01:29:28.070 --> 01:29:29.559
Yeah. Wants to add something.

468
01:29:30.740 --> 01:29:31.530
Yeah.

469
01:29:31.720 --> 01:29:35.590
yeah, yes, thanks.

470
01:29:35.610 --> 01:29:59.690
Yep. I I think there are. we could be clear, we could, we could be, we could operate a little bit of what we said. There are like several levels of the legal or legal dis silic barrow like in practice. Actually, most of the cases of at least in the equator, the big cases are lost and the corporations win.

471
01:29:59.780 --> 01:30:02.860
So that's a niche. But if

472
01:30:02.870 --> 01:30:11.230
what we want to do is well, yeah, it's one of the uses that they they can understand. But we can go. We want to go beyond that.

473
01:30:11.290 --> 01:30:26.400
That was was in, as was saying at the last slide. But some proposals of understanding rights that do not mirror property like. I forgive the economy when we have rights, but it's a collective property when nobody owns net.

474
01:30:26.540 --> 01:30:38.259
But even in that case we want to go beyond that that will be beyond things over a year and beyond the verification of eco-social experiences.

475
01:30:38.310 --> 01:30:44.729
But that's a harder step. I'm not sure about how we will get that.

476
01:30:46.140 --> 01:30:49.469
Thank you. So, are there any further questions? Yes.

477
01:30:49.590 --> 01:30:50.610
please go ahead.

478
01:30:58.820 --> 01:31:12.049
Yeah, thanks. Everybody. I just want to engage in some shameless promotion about our flagship journal, environmental sociology and and and and I feel justified in doing this, because I think

479
01:31:12.270 --> 01:31:15.039
I mean, the journal's been running 9 years.

480
01:31:15.210 --> 01:31:23.230
I think if we went back 1020 years it would have been unusual to see a panel on human animal relations

481
01:31:23.400 --> 01:31:30.290
at an environmental sociology meeting. I'm sure there are some colleagues who would still regard this as quite a peripheral topic.

482
01:31:30.510 --> 01:31:38.299
What I point out, the very first article we published in Environmental Sociology, Cassie Hayes article, the Live. The line was, in fact.

483
01:31:38.470 --> 01:31:43.840
about the way in which conservation was mobilized

484
01:31:43.890 --> 01:31:49.820
both against indigenous peoples and also by those peoples as in acts of resistance.

485
01:31:49.880 --> 01:31:56.590
And we've just published 2 articles online. Jesse Lunar, on the racialization Racialized spectacle of the Zoo

486
01:31:56.620 --> 01:32:13.100
and Yasmin Cup Montero at Al I think, is over here, and Al is back in Canada, on on animals and climate change, in the way which animal imagery is mobilized. It strikes me so I'll just dress this up as a question.

487
01:32:13.390 --> 01:32:18.460
but maybe particularly for you, Gavin, because I've asked you the question before.

488
01:32:18.570 --> 01:32:33.419
 you're in developing something distinct here. I think we need to not say simply rearticulate what's emerging in critical animal studies, but do something that explicitly mobilizes the sociological imagination.

489
01:32:33.700 --> 01:32:39.689
yeah, I think that that idea of relationality really really draws that in.

490
01:32:39.760 --> 01:32:50.439
But him, in storing an animal and seeking to use sociological research methods in working directly with animals, I think that's a that's an adventurous leap.

491
01:32:50.580 --> 01:32:58.010
Is it a leak you'd like to to elaborate on epistemologically and methodologically

492
01:33:04.580 --> 01:33:14.530
like. So it's actually working. Yes, thanks to your really great question as always. And yeah, I mean, I I

493
01:33:14.630 --> 01:33:28.070
I feel like I'm on a real kind of border land with the work I do now. And and you know, some ecologists like probably don't really certainly don't get the sociological dimensions of what I'm doing. I mean, a lot of them

494
01:33:28.240 --> 01:33:41.490
working in the reptile space know that one in 5 reptiles is facing extinction, you know, like there's a really serious biodiversity loss of that particular taxa. And they all realize that

495
01:33:41.510 --> 01:33:52.600
you cannot do ecology really without understanding the sociology of conflict and urbanisation, contamination and dispossession, etc., which links, I think, all these papers really well, lots of different ways.

496
01:33:52.630 --> 01:33:55.939
I mean, I I think what I' to it is.

497
01:33:56.000 --> 01:34:18.230
I've always been an ethnographer, and that's my sort of background is is really close engagement with and learning how to learning how to, in a sense, and I've got that and represent the the voice, the presence, the agency, the situatedness, the struggles of the the other. Like I've previously worked in

498
01:34:18.230 --> 01:34:41.970
surveillance and data, big data. That's been my kind of background. But you know, increasingly now I spend pretty much all of my spare time, all of it working with and for snakes like very, very dangerous things that if I get bitter and I'm going to go hospital I'll be intensive care. You might not see me again, and it's it's very real. The risk and the edge I work on. But The more I work with them.

499
01:34:42.250 --> 01:35:08.609
the more I communicate with them they communicate with me. I mean, I I do stuff like treat snakes all the time. They're injured, for example. And I just think I think that ethnographic training I've got is such a strength I bring to this project of looking at their work, their life on the urban fringes and edges, and the persecution of pressure and marginality they experience every single day. Every time they find out their burrows they're under pressure, the risk of their life, but losing their life is very real.

500
01:35:08.610 --> 01:35:23.349
So I bring that to close detailed attention. And it's quite ironic because I do surveillance of snakes. Now, I've always been a sociologist of surveillance. I've surveillance is about power, and I feel like I'm doing all of this to kind of. As I said earlier in my talk.

501
01:35:23.350 --> 01:35:41.690
you know, develop kin with these animals. It seems so crazy to have to develop him in an Eastern brown snake or red belly black snake. But I feel like that's what I'm doing, and it's very powerful, and I spend a lot of time out in the community and work with indigenous none of all knowledge holders working with

502
01:35:41.690 --> 01:36:02.430
disadvantaged, marginalized people in Australia, where the snake turns up as a figure, and it brings me into contact with, you know the snake, the human environment, the situation. And it's just like. It's such an amazing privilege to do that, and go into schools and bringing some Brian snakes in and show them and talk about their life as I see it as I understand it, through the ecology. So

503
01:36:02.550 --> 01:36:26.089
it's a long way of saying, I I feel like that ethnographic training I've got, and I need to develop my quantitative skills by the way, big Time. But and that that training is given me that kind of sense of like, you know, trying to restore the Alpine, trying to bring myself closer to the other. And I always understand that, you know I'm always encroaching on this animal's personal space. And I was just saying earlier to Angela like that.

504
01:36:26.550 --> 01:36:54.000
like I treat them. I look after them. And sometimes we develop these really interesting kind of relationalities, where, when I release that snake after it's been in treatment with me and I've healed this butt dog attack, or even to the shovel and stitched up. It'll often come out of the bag, and it'll stop, and it'll look at me, and I'll look at it, and it's sometimes come back over my feet and all sorts of weird stuff I've seen and I just kind of feel that this kind of trying to move beyond my humans a bit into that animal experience. So I'll stop that point

505
01:36:56.080 --> 01:37:18.789
So we have a colleague online at smell. So maybe, can I go ahead with a question for her, and then we could. So I have a question for Dr. Dealer, I mean, you give a very interesting presentation. You talked about the political ecology background, the critical foundation right? And also the tensions between political ecology and critical animal studies.

506
01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:41.720
So my question is You know. You also mentioned in your talk that the Vegan food is becoming very fancy, and it's being, you know. It's also becoming expensive, because everybody wants to. join in that that fancy club, if I, if I may use that word so And also with the consumption and the cause of the more in terms of capitalism. So my question is, in your opinion.

507
01:37:41.880 --> 01:37:46.250
how can we really address this? How to make the Vegan food less expensive?

508
01:37:52.310 --> 01:37:58.990
Deniz Diler: Thank you for your question. Well, it is a difficult question, and one that

509
01:37:59.810 --> 01:38:05.460
Deniz Diler: as I mentioned throughout my presentation.

510
01:38:06.360 --> 01:38:11.230
Deniz Diler: I mean to for Vegan food to become much cheaper.

511
01:38:11.340 --> 01:38:17.890
Deniz Diler: and they need to be subsidized, as I mean, like the animal

512
01:38:17.920 --> 01:38:28.969
Deniz Diler: products from industrial and agriculture that states subsidize, and I mean the taxpayers pay for milk, meat and and so on.

513
01:38:29.530 --> 01:38:39.689
Deniz Diler:  I mean, even if they become cheaper. it doesn't necessarily change the capitalist nature of

514
01:38:39.840 --> 01:38:50.120
Deniz Diler: we can food production as well. So I mean, I don't know without the systematic change.

515
01:38:50.500 --> 01:38:54.359
Deniz Diler: Even if they get cheaper they will be produced

516
01:38:54.530 --> 01:39:06.860
Deniz Diler: within industries or exploiting workers or still exploiting the environment, using so much energy, non renewable energy.

517
01:39:07.620 --> 01:39:10.419
Deniz Diler: So I think practically

518
01:39:10.980 --> 01:39:26.030
Deniz Diler:  they might get cheaper if they're subsidized. If they're I mean, in Turkey, for example, their talks much higher than animal products. So they're much more expensive

519
01:39:26.150 --> 01:39:43.739
Deniz Diler:  than animal products. In even during high inflation. We are living through right now. So if with, if you're talking within the capital system, I think the subsidies could be a way out, it's

520
01:39:43.940 --> 01:39:53.199
Deniz Diler: I don't think that's feasible for the environment, the animals, the workers. So not a clear answer. But thank you.

521
01:39:53.310 --> 01:40:08.259
Yeah, thank you. I know that's not. It's not there. It's no clear answer for this question. That was the reason to us. I just wanted to know you. What's your take on that? Thank you very much. So are there for any more for the question we still have, roughly, 10 min to go. Yeah, please go ahead.

522
01:40:14.630 --> 01:40:29.999
Hi, Angeline Liturno from University of Alberta and Canada one theme that I kind of saw across all of the presentations addressed explicitly, and some more than others. But it was kind of this thread of colonization. So you know, with

523
01:40:30.000 --> 01:40:52.009
invasive species, I mean, that was facilitated by colonization right? with this idea of like hierarchical human wildlife relationships. That is also very much tied to kind of the Judeo-christian tradition. as well as kind of you know how snakes are villainized. I mean, obviously, in the indigenous context. I don't need to explain how that is relevant to colonization, I hope.

524
01:40:52.030 --> 01:41:12.720
but I was. You know I'm I'm very much a fan of the tech and yang piece on like decolonization is not a metaphor like there's none of this. There's no way to go back. We can't de-colonize, but we can actively resist colonial systems of power going forward into the future. So they propose this idea of anti colonialism. So

525
01:41:12.720 --> 01:41:38.709
I'd love if each of the presenters could maybe speak to how you see in the kind of specific context that you were looking at, how there's maybe an opportunity to be anti colonialist and sort of resist these ongoing systems of power that you see how colonization shaped in those particular systems, and and how that can look more just going forward. Just a nice, easy question to finish off the panel.

526
01:41:50.840 --> 01:42:08.809
Thank you. That's a very interesting question. I guess from my perspective. The epistemological approach that is predominant in human wildlife. Research is very objectivist, and it's very empirical and it reduces human wildlife relationships to quantifiable

527
01:42:09.110 --> 01:42:13.810
elements. And these very reduced economical

528
01:42:14.300 --> 01:42:38.999
perspectives. So I guess the coloniality. I am hoping I'm working from a relational perspective which is resoundingly ancient and indebted in many indigenous cultures. as a non-indigenous person, I cannot use indigenous epistemologies or indigenous my apologies, which is why I work from a new materials point of view, but what really led me to trying to take the approach of relationality, was

529
01:42:39.120 --> 01:42:40.529
the question of

530
01:42:40.629 --> 01:42:44.109
why does it have to be this way?

531
01:42:44.219 --> 01:43:07.390
I don't think it does. I don't think we have to always work from the same ontology, that ontology, of how we quantify, how do we measure it? How do we objectively look at it. So I thought, Okay, how can I use a different tool to try and make sure that my work is alive to different ways of seeing and doing that might have a different ontological basis, which

532
01:43:07.730 --> 01:43:11.930
for the indigenous speakers about what she founded in that relational approach.

533
01:43:12.070 --> 01:43:18.530
So yeah, like, I said, I can't. I can't work for an indigenous perspective, and it's not as actively deep colonial as I would like.

534
01:43:18.620 --> 01:43:28.429
but my cutters for doing it this way was to make sure that the space that we're offering people to communicate in is not actively hostile to their les.

535
01:43:35.820 --> 01:43:45.689
Yeah, thanks for the question. So yeah, in the world of invasive species and managing invasive species. There's a lot of different

536
01:43:45.780 --> 01:43:50.009
ways. You can go there. So, for example, a lot of indigenous teachers

537
01:43:50.080 --> 01:43:57.390
that I've heard talk about invasive species do not take that immediate emergency eradication approach

538
01:43:58.240 --> 01:44:00.679
in the sense that they say

539
01:44:00.799 --> 01:44:08.950
things like when settlers arrived in this place, we didn't immediately try to kill all of them. We were like, Ok, what are you good for?

540
01:44:09.040 --> 01:44:15.609
And in a similar way, when a new species comes out. Okay, so what are you like? How can we come into relation?

541
01:44:15.750 --> 01:44:21.490
So that does sometimes happen definitely but invasive species as a term or non-native species such a

542
01:44:21.510 --> 01:44:23.940
huge umbrella that there's always a

543
01:44:24.190 --> 01:44:26.580
species somewhere that is on the other side of

544
01:44:27.040 --> 01:44:29.880
a way of thinking. So, for example.

545
01:44:30.430 --> 01:44:32.209
ash, basket makers

546
01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:41.580
 and Theishinabe communities are very concerned about emerald ashore, because it's destroying all the ash trees. So they do try to.

547
01:44:42.190 --> 01:44:44.429
I engage in this kind of well.

548
01:44:45.280 --> 01:44:58.860
emergency way of thinking about eradication in the case of emerald ashore, it's essentially impossible. So anyway, that's a whole other issue. So that's one issue with invasive species and non-native species. There's such a wide range that you can always talk about

549
01:44:59.540 --> 01:45:01.410
different things there. But,

550
01:45:03.330 --> 01:45:14.170
Another sorry I can keep going on and on. But another issue is how you controlled them. So, for example, there's this grasp mighty's austerity.

551
01:45:15.410 --> 01:45:16.639
But

552
01:45:17.070 --> 01:45:22.929
the problem with this grass is that it grows in pawns, and it very rapidly takes a whole.

553
01:45:23.950 --> 01:45:31.470
And in one of the ecosystems in Toronto what happened was the city said, Ok, we're going to add pesticides to kill it.

554
01:45:31.480 --> 01:45:38.199
It's in the water. So they did their pesticide application and everything and indigenous groups. I was working with.

555
01:45:38.209 --> 01:45:42.119
realize this. And we're like, okay, so you just poison the entire water body.

556
01:45:42.309 --> 01:45:47.709
That was the way of thinking about that. So then there was this whole thing where we did this

557
01:45:47.850 --> 01:45:49.030
whole event.

558
01:45:49.090 --> 01:46:09.429
trying to recognize the harm that had been done. And there's this huge clash between the city mattress and the front and region conservation authority 2, and this way of controlling things. So I think that's also something. If people go out and try to control a species without consulting or thinking with indigenous peoples in the area, at least in the South, like a place like Canada.

559
01:46:10.030 --> 01:46:15.920
you can run into all kinds of problems and things that you wouldn't have considered. And there are.

560
01:46:18.350 --> 01:46:20.230
yeah, we have 3 min. Yes.

561
01:46:23.250 --> 01:46:50.630
okay. So I'll be brief. well, more than anti-colonial. I will say that with the native communities we work with, we. They have more and we have more an anti-capitalist, a sense, right? Because for for the communities and for us, we see how capital is, is a patriarchal racist, colonial, and we can add and objectives to describe this system. So

562
01:46:50.630 --> 01:47:02.710
so we think more in these terms, and the resistance go in the day to day, life building autonomous projects, resisting, yes, with

563
01:47:03.380 --> 01:47:15.230
whatever instrumental use we can have of law or other instances, but mainly trying to create other forms, to relate to each other and in the world.

564
01:47:15.270 --> 01:47:16.319
So that will be my

565
01:47:16.450 --> 01:47:18.810
my answer. So I don't know.

566
01:47:20.410 --> 01:47:23.779
Yeah, we have not a lot of time. So

567
01:47:24.330 --> 01:47:36.220
sure, sure, okay, 2 more minutes. Thank you. It's a great question, I think, for me. It's kind of like about

568
01:47:36.230 --> 01:47:53.450
getting your everyday Australians to think about spatial domination entitlement that they that they have is just a natural occurring thing in their mind that, you know this is my space. I own this space. How dare you come onto my space and transgress that boundary? And so like for me, it's about.

569
01:47:53.450 --> 01:48:22.719
you know, it's about reducing conflict. It's really important through education, through creation, you know, so doing, different kinds of events that trouble those kind of dominant narratives that you know that underpin the violence. and it's also about, you know, restoring me really represented, as I said, and and like I did a lecture recently with an honorable knowledge holder. I am Uncle Richie Allen, who made my amazing design, my shirt. And he, you know, it was just such an amazing event, bringing that indigenous

570
01:48:22.760 --> 01:48:25.330
perspective and cultural knowledge, the table with

571
01:48:25.350 --> 01:48:44.200
the ecology and bringing them together. And it's just such a wonderful dialogue. And I think the audience really got a lot from that. So it's about familiarization. It's about really normalising snakes in the landscape and telling their story. But for me and that that will hopefully help do some of that work on.

572
01:48:44.340 --> 01:48:46.490
Thank you very much. So it's

573
01:48:46.980 --> 01:49:13.740
20 min past 5. So we all are done well on time. So thank you very much. To Tyler problem, I think such an interesting question. We had a very good range of papers from Mexico to Canada, Australia. Turkey as well. So thank you for the critics who have joined us online today and thank you everybody for coming today. And you know, sharing your thoughts and time with us. Thank you very much, and have a lovely evening. Bye.

574
01:49:15.420 --> 01:49:17.000
Okay.