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Thank you so much.

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Thanks. Hi everyone. On behalf of everyone gathered I pay respect to the spirit of country here in ARM where we are meeting.

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I acknowledge the past and present coordination, Funjeri, Vooong as the sovereign people here.

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The cultural knowledge holders maintain and promote the norm of knowledge holders maintain and promote the norm of knowledge holders maintain and promote the norm Aboriginal low customs and and promote the Narm Aboriginal Low Customs and Costello, Aboriginal Low Customs and Custiller Ship Responsibilities for

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Country. And the people that country continues to sustain generation of the generation into the future for all of us.

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I recognize the important contribution that First Nations thinkers have made to sociology. Including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking.

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We thank all First Nations delegates in the room today for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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Thanks everyone for gathering here today. And for making time and for making yourself available from different places to different countries.

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Also I assume at times that are not the typical times when you would deliver a presentation as I myself doing.

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I really appreciate that and I really appreciate, the papers you submitted and the world you dedicated to all these.

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So I'm really looking forward to your presentation. So, just very 1Â min on the spirit of these, It is really to explore the ways in which social movements are the rest in the question of the state, the question of state power, the question of state interventionism that is becoming one again very relevant.

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Element and trend in contemporary politics. I mean, in a way, a state has been a classic issue for social movements for a very long time.

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No, modernist paradigm, right? The idea was that social movements should influence the state should steer state action towards a certain direction.

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Rather than another one. But in a way, the assumption is that now after a time when attention was focused more on non-state actors, right, as the ultimate.

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Target of social movements mobilization in a time or globalization right in a time when much attention was focused on influencing corporations and the super national organizations that now the state and especially the nation states is becoming once again a kind of central objective of concern for social movements.

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And to explore this issue we have, 4 excellent papers and without further ado I would start with the first presented.

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We use Sarah Marina and Donato from Looms University in Rome. Yes, who's presenting a paper that is co-autored with, Professor, And they are both at Looms University in Rome and the paper is title movements dynamics and governments government responsiveness to buyerousness women.

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Political and social changes in Spain and Italy. For is yours.

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Yes.

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Thank you so much. For this presentation, I'll try to share my my screen so you tell me if this is working you see the slide properly right Okay, perfect.

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Yep.

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So thank you. I'm, and today I'm presenting a paper that I call a paper that I co-authored with, the title of the presentation, was already been, quoted and its movements dynamics and government responsiveness to balance against women.

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The political and social changes in Spain and Italy. So, pl start. When we talk about violence against women, we know it is a central issue on the agenda of global women's movements.

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Since the Vienna Declaration Human Rights in 1,993 and the Beijing conference at the UN level in 1,995.

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New definition has emerged as part of a global narrative merging, pretty much, different typologies of actions within the single notion of violence against women.

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Among them, talking, psychological manipulation, abuse, rape, and, and, This new definition also encapsulates many broader issues.

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Among them the critic of male dominance, the demon for equality, the protection of victims and the mobilization for more just and equitable society.

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But on a national level, a balance against women policies are the result of gradual processes of change. Because they imply a cultural shift affecting gender behavior as well.

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In this article we aim to analyze how feminists and women's movements chronologically and their chronically as well have acted as leading agents for change in terms of balance against women government responsiveness.

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We do so through, comparative analysis of the policy trajectories in Spain and D.

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It's important to say that we stop at the first level of policy implementation. So we're not going to value whether such policies are we're sufficient to conduct the magnitude of the violent scans to women or effectiveness, but rather we mapped in detail the interplay and tensions between movements and national governments

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and this specific policy sector. We will focus on span and digitally as I said before and see what was the impact on women's movement and government responseness to violence against women.

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What features of women's movements accelerated policy formation. And if there are any other factors that are worth mentioning.

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About the methods. We focus on a comparative analysis. So comparison between Italy and Spain, which is based on both case studies and qualitative research.

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Using the tools solved, process tracing and prescription of, trajectories of change. To chart the development of time of these policies we systematically collected a government policy documents.

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Lost plans, Parliament transcripts official reports as well as independent articles, studies. And other literature produced by movements and associations.

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As well as academic literature in also local languages. So Spain and detailing. In Detroit.

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And the chronology in the study also in alliance domestic policies with actions of international organizations. As you can see for each country, we analyze 2 phases.

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We said the first one is 1,975 to 1,995 and the second is 1,996 to 2011.

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1,900, and 96, the Italian parliament approved the law against sexual violence.

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Which is the very first act of act of government responsiveness. On violence against women in the country. And the following year in aftermath of the murder of Annaarantes.

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By her husband and the Spanish government approved the first national plan. To contrast to counter violence against women. We stopped in 2,011 because we think we thought was a crucial moment because politically speaking the Spanish Prime Minister Sapatero lost the election after 7 years of governments.

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What also the Italian Prime Minister reside and was replaced by Technocrat government. Which among many things also cancelled the position of ministry minister for equal opportunities.

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Which was an office that had existed for over 15 years.

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As for the comparative analysis still, we compare Italy and Spain because for instance, in literature on welfare types, Spain in Italy are classified under the Southern Model which is characterized as so-called traditional model.

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So we were able to see differences and similarities among the chief and between the 2 countries. And our aim is finally is to observe change in spin and Italy in a fine-grained comparative approach and to unravel the influence of influential concept of autonomous movements in order to expose the the gaps as well

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as their acceleration, the acceleration and relative strength. At different points in time. H few words on the theoretical framework.

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The theoretical framework for the analysis we carried out distinguishes 3 fortune. So the first is that violence cans to women is a specialized policy domain.

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It's part of gender justice, yet it is distinct from the more consolidated sectors such as parentally family law and child care.

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The second is that the women's movements. We say we agree on the key role that they play.

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But, we want in this article to dug more deep into internal characteristics as well as the the relationships, the relationship of dialogue or conflict with governments.

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And links with transnational movements. And lastly, a country is political life. We mean the state evolution, the government ideology, the international political opportunity.

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And the presence of women in political parties does and this related to changes in violence against women policy. For instance, the government of Spain and Ditly approved the ballot skin streaming policies in 1,983 and 1,996 respectively which in itself is already a delay compared to other European countries.

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but also that the gap of over 10 years between these 2 countries, but also that the gap of over 10 years between these 2 countries is something, worth noting.

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We take hence the claim that, balance against women policies where, primarily influenced by feminists and women's movements one step further and we do so by looking at this.

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3 main, issues. So, this is a table that shows the first phase of, the comparative analysis.

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What we can tell is that the comparative case study showed at democratic life is a necessary but insufficient condition for, violence against women responsiveness.

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So Franklin's dictatorship for influence from 1939 to 1,975 was a clear impediment to those topology of policy in Spain.

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While in Italy the Democrat democratic life since 1940 So, had no impact in moving this policy agenda forward.

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From the from the comparative perspective at the national level. Violence against women policies developed along separate timelines and with foreign intensity.

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As I said before, in Spain the first, JR is a government responseness appeared in 1983 with the creation of the first women's policy agency.

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The thing that you, see in both After a process of slow, growth also, this was the first government for spontaneous in Spain.

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The let's say that the government's responsiveness accelerated in mid ninetys, whereas in Italy, this policy response did not emerge until as late as 1,996.

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Although in the seventies, Italian parliamentary reforms detailed significant improvements for women. The remain and receptive to violence against women, topology of policies until the mid-nineties.

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At the national level we also observe international soft power as a relevant factor in fostering major policy outcomes.

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For instance the focal role played by the Spanish delegation in Beijing in 1,995 is something to consider because this facilitated context and exchanges between the Spanish movements and the transnational networks.

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But also in Spain, the movements were facilitated by an alliance with the referee's soy, socialist party.

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Whereas in Italy, this is totally different because movements critically distance themselves from the PCI communist ideology which somehow refused to place the demands of feminism within their parting of the class struggles and their that their struggles in general.

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This was, an additional factor in late start of we can say violence against women government responsiveness in Italy.

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Far more from 1995 the intensity of soft power international measures is pretty clear, but they generated different outcomes because for Spain they correlated to policy acceleration while in Italy they led to policy initiation so they represent as a kind of large part.

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This is a kind of, you know, figure that explains the interaction. Between governments and movements to policy formation in the specific policy field or violence against women.

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So what we can tell, we can tell that in both countries the movements where a key player in this policy sector.

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But there is a measure difference in the respective identities and aims. As well as the types of interaction with the government and influences that arise from the social and political context.

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In Spain, Feminism nurtured deep-rooted aspiration for women's liberation.

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While, simultaneously lobbying and leveraging political institutions. Movements in Spain where jeweler, feminist, social activist and part of their action kind of overlapped that of the government.

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So feminists exerted pressure from outside with action such as the street quotas and collection of signatures, as well as from the inside.

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Through the presence of feminist leaders within political institutions. So it's so-called Democrats in cooperation with the government.

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So we can say that as early as the eighties, feminists had it the women's institute.

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And this double militancy did not exclude conflict. One very easy example is that the dissent that arose from the radical wing of feminism after the approval of the very well-known Belgian law in 24.

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Yeah, this led to the foundation for Rabo State Feminism. And the development and implementation of balance can treatment policies as well as the creation of women's policy agency stranded in Spain from this dual activism.

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We can say that you do this ongoing Alliance movements in Spain were able to leverage and benefit from merging political opportunities, such as also the transition from dictatorship to democracy and the sappa there a long laughing mandate from 2,004 to 2,011.

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So Spanish movements were robust and highly effective in bringing about Change, also a dual militancy tamper their astronomy considerably.

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So what happens in Eklein? What happened immediately? In Italy movements, movement identity was both anti-institutional and anti-refamist.

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So opposing the government from the outside. Inception of the feminist movements began earlier than in Spain, also because of the political and social context.

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How, it remains resolute in his rejection of dialogue with the government. So the Italian movements students trends from, their role as the seminar of transformative ideas on gender equality and on violence against women at the channels of dissemination did not create dialogue between feminists and and and the government.

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So let's go to the conclusion. So we said that in both countries the movements where players and key players in this policy sectors.

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But still there is there is this measure difference in the respective identities and aims. Also the context was pretty much something that influence the social and political context the policy outcomes in this field.

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We said that in Spain we women movements or women's movements were dual, feminists, social activists.

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And part of their action. Kind of overlap with that of the government. Initially they were proudly autonomous.

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But this not interested in triggering government actions. And also the role of women's policy agency was crucial in both countries.

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But provided meaning that only if they actually, try to develop and to focus on a violence against women as a mission.

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We can also add that in Spain, state feminism has sat balanced against treatment policies.

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Within a theoretical framework of gender violence and human rights. For instance if we look at the biogen that I was mentioning before law in 24 the government delegation for violence against women in 24 and the national plan for a awareness.

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And prevention of gender violence, 27 and 2007. So, Joanne, militancy in Spain had also been engaged in elaborating an alternative feminine station while producing effective policy outcomes.

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In Italy, policies have been instead issue rented. So with responses offering specific solutions to specific problems. Such as in the 21 law against violence in family relationships, the Urban Project's law in 1,998 and 22 and the 2,009 law of sexual violence and stall kicks

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and talking. So what we can say that. Also a language shift facilitated the cultural shift that eventually produced violent scans to men action.

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But policies have not been underpinned by an overreaching feminist vision in Italy. For both countries, we can tell that the general claim that international and regional norms by regional I mean those for instance of them body that are in between international and national so for instance Council of Europe They play a role on violence against women

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policy. So this correspond to distinct water shanding government responsiveness as well. However, in our case studies, this general claim operates in a different manner, so meaning how the international and regional organization influenced the policy formation these 2 countries.

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So in Spain, the movements were already active on violence against women. And transnational numbers, had the role of being an accelerated.

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Whereas they were a large part. With the time being, confidential with the government's creation of the first policy agency.

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That was working on violence against women. So in both Spain and Italy, the positive overspill from transnational movements first of course when a left wing government comes to power But more recently we can tell that right wing coalitions have continued actions on violence against women.

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And this would what does tell us that a test that a test sorry that issue is now on mainstream agenda many national governments and does not depend on the on the on the topology of coalition at the government So just few conclusions.

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So today Balance Against Women is a fully fledged policy field with significant differences. It did not originate from the same national power constellations that passed progressive reforms on similar issues such as family low parental leave and early childhood As the global narrative on violence against women spreads across the world.

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interactions between national movements and governments. Mids play unique entrancing dynamics that are worth taking into consideration and analyzing.

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So the comparative understanding of these interplay. May have to serve. May serve to increase knowledge about the current role and the impact of movements.

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On these and other women's policy areas. And I hope these comparison was a brief introduction to, this GK studies and I thank you for your attention.

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Thanks very much for this excellent paper. This was really interesting and I look forward to discussing that. This was really interesting and I look forward to discussing that in the in the Q&amp;A session.

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I look forward to discussing that in the in the Q&amp;A session. I think we have Joseph Maria now who is connected.

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So are you with us?

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Yeah, yeah, I am here.

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Brilliant. So if you are ready, I'll leave the floor to you. Maria, E and antenna is from and his paper is on social movements, the state and internationalism.

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Okay, that's fine. Okay, hi everybody. I'm sorry for arriving like some connection problems, but I am already there Well yeah, my idea of my paper.

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It was 2 discuss a little bit, the question of transnational dimension. Of contemporary social struggles.

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And in fact, my idea is why this was discuss why in fact transnational collective action. Has been quite quick.

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In all this long cycle of struggles that have taken place in 2,008, in particular in 2,01011 and so on.

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And my idea of discussing that is because I think the transnational quality of action in fact is, it's an obvious witness with many contemporary social movements.

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But in the same time it is a key strategic issue to analyze movement today. And my paper is going to be based on, on an article I publish, recently in the general labor history and where I created an a special issue and internationalism today.

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So when it comes to discussing this, I think that maybe will have to be known also by a certain terminological qualification.

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Because of course when we discuss. Cross border activities. In general in social movement with territory and also in label movement studies.

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The temp that you that we use more more using these international collective action. And I think that international collective action is a useful term, but it's a little bit descriptive.

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So I think it's useful to, to combine. The usual stronger term of transnational collective action.

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With a more classic term of internationalism. That of course internationalism is very broad concept. But in its basic sense it may refer to the capacity for collective action and solidarity across national state borders.

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And I think that as a concept it's useful because it connects with a long historical tradition of social movements.

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And have a much more strategic meaning that just internationalism or international Collect action. It's true, however, that if we simply use the word internationalism.

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As it's very much connected with a twentieth century political tradition or even nineteenth century political traditional social movement to tradition.

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Sometimes maybe the war internationalism, may not, rush well. All the changes that we have had in the last 40 years because of global capitalism and so on.

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So maybe we have to merge. Internationalism with other concepts or somehow new ones or specify what we understand for internationalism.

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To try to solve this problem for example, Historian Marshal Vander Lyndon use the term transnational internationalism, precisely to refer to the kind of internationalism that emerge.

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Since the light seventies in the year of globalisation, multinational corporations and so on. I think it's a good term.

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I also proposed to use the term global internationalism to try to adapt toward internationalism to the era of globalization or to the crisis of criminalization today.

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I think the term global internationalism. Is it useful in 2 sense? First, because it locates contemporary internationalism in a very specific historical period.

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That of globalization and now in that of the long proactive extended crisis of colonization. And now using the term global internationalism, if you should to emphasize a non-Euro Western conception of internationalism.

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Okay, that would be let's say the basic terminological clarification I would do to discuss this kind of questions.

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Again, when we discuss, let's say, the weakness of contemporary social movements, internationalism or contemporary social movements international collective action.

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I think we have to remember that it has always been the case. I mean, cross border activity has always been difficult activity for movements.

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The history of popular movements is rich within international experience. But it's largely reached in internationalist failures.

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So it's not new that that the international arena is a complicated thing. We know that it's a complicated thing because of, you know, political competition, economic competition, language problems and basically because of the fact that the then experience of many workers and many people is frame for the national daily activity except if you are located in key strategic places

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where the international thing. He's a mechanical thing if you if you work as a walk docker as a talker it's obvious that the international win is automatically for you.

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But if not, it's not. The user case. Then So I think that internationalism can be understood.

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And Also not only as a practice, but as a kind of goal to strive for. It's a it's a practice but also kind of strategic horizon.

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Something that you want to achieve not something that you do but is also kind of a goal that is there.

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Then when discussing, these difficulties of, collective international action. I think as we can distinguish between different conception of internationalism, I think that we can distinguish between a weak and a strong conception of internationalism.

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Let's say the week one. Mainly emphasises the national dimension of political struggle. And this internationalism as a kind of solidarity with other struggles.

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Let's say solidarity between national struggles. For example, the French females offer Frederick Lauren.

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Has explicitly advocate for this kind of internationalism. He says the main activities national arena. But then you can express your solidarity with other struggles.

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For example, he is in France. If you have a struggle increased, you can be only that with them.

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But it's a kind of the center is the national thing. Then we can have a stronger or strong conception of internationalism.

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Which is more the idea that, okay, the National Orion is a key one. But we need to articulate a dynamic, dialectical relationship between different specialist scales, local, national, international and so on.

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In this sense, internationalism is not just about solidarity with between national struggles or with other struggles.

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But it's also the attempt to do join cross-border initiatives. And also internationalism is not just about internationalism or solidarity with the struggles.

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But it's also about, organizational things. It's also about building pyramid and international networks and so on.

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I think this is strong conception of internationalism offers a richer understanding of the fashion scales of globalization and the complicated interplay between global, local, national and so on.

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I like the concept that was used by, also, FRANK, FRIENDS, ULVER, DAN, SAID, Of, Sliding the Scale of Spaces, The idea that the movements have to play the slide in the scheme of spaces.

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To manage the complicated specialty of globalization. And it seems to me that this, let's say, is strong conception of internationalism.

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Is more interesting and is a more ambitious gong. For social movements today. Of course, when we talk about a strong contextion of internationalism, maybe we need some.

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Clarifications. One is that this is not equal to a kind of Boston-national abstract cosmopolitanism.

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I, it's another debate. I think that the term cosmopolitanism is not a problem.

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The problem is when you understand in an abstract post national way that seems that national states disappear. And I think this is a strong conception of internationalism.

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That's not deny that at the end of the day the national state and the national winner is very important.

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I think that nobody can deny the decision central fact. And the other question I think that when we when we discuss on a stronger ideas of internationalism We may we must not oppose internationalism to the national question, which is also risk that sometimes we may have and we have to remember that in fact the history of labor internationalism in fact was

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framed in complex interaction between the national question. The story for example. Of the First International, you cannot understand it without the the debates on Poland, Ireland and so on.

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And also then later in the twentieth century international was linked with self determination of peoples and the communism and so on.

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Well, this was let's say that the more general theoretical things I wanted to say. Then when it comes to an eyes of why movements to the other week in this.

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Internationally they mentioned. That is striking because prior to our moment prior to 2,008 we had a brief period in which transnational community faction was very strong with the global justice movement.

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Yeah, but that was very strong but very fast and it should last a few days. I think that well the global justice movement what can be common international social movement But what we have witnessed after 2,01011 has not been like this.

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It's been more what it's called the international wave of protest. So a set of national movements.

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That cut this afternoon to play. I think that we have to try to discuss why because the paradox is that today movements were stronger for, because the paradox is that today movements were stronger, for example, than in the era of the global justice movement.

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But they are stronger but more nationalized. And it seems to me that this is the paradox. And I think that what has happened after 200-89-1011 and so on is that in fact, the big legitimacy crisis that political systems had.

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So the magnitude of the crisis, nationalized protest. And in fact, we had a paradoxical situation in which.

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We had very similar policies in many countries if we have the European example is very clear. We had a wave of massive resistance again, again, again, this very similar, bonuses.

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But as in fact, these policies were carried on by states with different rhythms, actions and so on.

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This led to a defensive and synchronized pace of resistance.

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Also, we had the situation in which we had big mobilization. But usually carried on by very small or relatively small organizations.

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Even big unions are very small today. And in the heyday of big and destiny protests when we had if basically organizations that were overtaken, overwhelmed by the massivity of movements and also had no time.

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To do anything else beyond daily struggles. So had no time to organize things like international perspective, engaging international, coordination and so on.

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And I think only in situations where the international activity was perceived as something that you have to do if you want to have the minimum success.

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Movements were pushed towards international activity. For example, if we think about the networks of workers in Amazon, for example.

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Well, it's obvious if you are an Amazon worker in Poland and you want to strike in Amazon, it's obvious that if you don't coordinate with sharing work, cause you are done.

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But in the more general, like say Politico, anti austerity movements. I mean, the urgency to confirm your own government and the money to go for the crisis that you have in each country.

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Paradoxical instead of pushing movements to be able to go beyond this simply you know push movements in a very daily national basis.

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Resistance. Just to try to finish not to be very long. Of course we have had important examples of the international competitive action.

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We had in the beginning of theusterity cycle attempts to coordinate ofusterity boxes rock by in front for playing in Europe things like that, but it was also on the sideline of the movement.

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It was not the Then we had important attempts to coordinate. Problems for example in Europe that emerge immediately as international crisis.

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Like the refugee crisis in Europe. We have several terms of global day of action and so on.

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Then as I don't, we have had interesting international experiences of specific networks like the Amazon workers and so on.

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And then of course we had in 2,01718 and 19. Maybe the 2 most important examples to these witnesses.

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One is the women's international strike after 2,017. That anyway is not exactly its international movement.

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It was a set of national movements. Somehow coordinated and that could use the date of eighth of March to strike together.

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And then maybe we had what has been the most international experience is 2,019 movements against climate change for the future and so on.

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So probably we have katali interesting experiences of international collective action that somehow connect more with the heyday of the no global movement but in a global context where the national arena has been the dominant ground.

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I think just to summarize this. We have got the situation in which. On the one hand let's say national movements and national struggles have had a very important finding of Mutual identification.

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People have easily identified themselves. With what was going on in other counties. And people have had the sense of sharing the common destiny.

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But in the same time, there's been a weak capacity for join international action. So in instead of at to internationalist practice, we have had a kind of diffuse ambient internationalism.

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People like the problems that this effect together. People may easily identify with what's going on in very different countries and use.

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But this has not translated. In a relative capacity to, to act together and it seems to me that this is the paradox of condition of this last let's say decade of and dousterity protest.

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Thank you.

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Thanks very much for your presentation. This was really interesting and very relevant to this panels discussion. I would then move on to the next presenter, Are you ready?

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Yeah, hi. Hi.

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To present. So just quickly introduce you. Is a researcher at the University of Manchester. and, is a researcher at the University of Manchester.

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And, his paper, in the United Kingdom, and the paper is titled, Universal Free and Comprehensive.

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NHS values and class consciousness. We should, if I'm right, recently is the anniversary of the NHS, founding, right?

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So, It is quite well timed. So I'll leave it a floor, please.

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Right, thank you. Yeah, the 70 fifth birthday of the NHS this year. yeah, so, just a bit more about myself. I'm a doctor.

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Training in forensic psychiatry in Manchester. And I'm also a medical anthropologist and a lecturer here.

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So my PhD was on a health care activist in the UK. So people campaigning against cuts and privatization.

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In the NHS. Whereas as Paula said, the, the NHS is the National Health Service.

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The, the public health care system for the UK. As actually so I said the UK but actually there's a separate NHS for England.

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And for Scotland and for Wales. And that kind of slightly separate system for the Northern Ireland. But my my research is based in England.

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Yeah.

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So my field work involved participant observation with the activists themselves. And interviews with managers and politicians as well and my field work was back in 2017 and 2018.

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So today's presentation is about kind of forming solidaristic alliances And so the activists sought to build alliances with the variety of different actors including striking healthcare workers with NHS managers, with politicians, with other activists.

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But the folks of today's presentation is gonna be the coalition they try to create. Between NHS activists.

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And migrants. And of course all those groups that I've just mentioned all of those groups are not mutually exclusive significant overlap between them.

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So the fact that the NHS can act as this kind of focal point, this communal institution of solidarity between these different groups in the service of kind of quite different kinds of coalition.

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Provides evidence for my argument, but using the NHS in this way kind of weaponizing the NHS.

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Does require us to choose how to interpret the meaning of the NHS. So those requires to kind of pick and choose which aspects of the NHS we want to focus on.

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And draw out all while acknowledging. That interpretation of the NHS is gonna have to go into battle with other interpretations of the NHS.

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Other kind of you know of what the NHS means and also acknowledge the reality that the NHS

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Kind of does not always or maybe never lives up to the aspirations for how we imagine that it could be or ought to be.

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So I'm kind of accepting something in here and contentious politics that we're striving for something better that does not exist but I'm also arguing that there is value in looking back at something that does exist or did exist.

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Using that historical memory to judge. The present to try and forge a better future. And the reason for me wanted to argue in this way about the NHS is whatever kind of your understanding of the NHS, the 1 point of consensus about it in the UK is that it matters.

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It's important, you know, people are talking about it all day every day. It's in the news, blah blah blah.

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You know, the NHS is a very potent icon. Whatever it means, what it means matters.

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So I gotta argue that this kind of shared consensus on the importance of the NHS represents a political opportunity.

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For those seeking to protect and advance the most expensive most egalitarian most emancipatory version of the NHS and therefore of state intervention in general.

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In society. So I'm gonna quickly with through what the NHS meant. To the activist that I did field work with basically kind of a moral example.

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In their words an example of socialism. Based on fundamental values of universal free and comprehensive And then I'll go into how they address the role of the NHS in the hostile environment.

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And I'll explain what the hostile environment was. Or is. And for them it wasn't by ignoring the institutional racism of the past and current NHS.

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It was by using those fundamental value, especially universality. To contest that institutionalized racism because the NHS does it actually was.

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Was not marrying up to how it ought to be. And what flow from that strategy was a focus on solidarity with migrants as fellow humans being failed by the system.

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Rather than simply advocacy for them as vulnerable others, you know, deserving charity. So what did the NHS mean?

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So one of the groups I did, that I spent a lot of time doing. During fieldwork.

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Was done in keep our NHS public. Dunning is a name that I've made up for a town in Greater Manchester.

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So they had weekly protests outside Dunning Hospital. I wish they kind of held placards distributedly flips, etc.

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And one of the very first times I joined that protest. The done in KOP done and keeper NHS public members introduce me to Alan, who ran a separate, but related anti austerity network in Dunning.

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And Alan probably announced to me. And this is a quote. The NHS is an example of socialism.

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That's why they want to get rid of it. So what does he mean? By Example and what do they mean by socialism?

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And where did those meetings come from and what work were they doing in that kind of political contestation that the activists were engaged in.

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So the activists that I was doing work with kind of understood the history of the NHS.

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And of neoliberalism and of cuts and privatization within the context of their own life histories.

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So many of them, most of them were in their fifties or sixties, and they consider themselves children of the NHS.

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That was a direct quote from that. So they remembered, how they benefited from state welfare.

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Growing up in a society in which state services were for them one illustration of how members of society took responsibility for one another.

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So they drew in these memories to imagine the NHS as a moral example. Of, actually existing socialism.

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And by which they meant a realization of socialist values or as one activist, put it to meet the social fabric.

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So that kind of that's what socialism kind of meant to them. So kind of the meaning of socialism was more about values.

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Than it was about ownership of industry. So the potency of the NHS as an example of socialism came from the fact that it represented socialist values.

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While also being a body owned by the state or an activist rhetoric owned by pups.

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So it combined socialist values with socialist economic structures. And the NHS demonstrate not only how the state ought to intervene to foster society in which citizens took responsibility for one another.

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But also demonstrated that the state could intervene in that way. It also provided an icon around which politics of collective responsibility could coalesce.

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So the idea of the example. Was based partly on the fact that the NHS already existed. But they were also contesting the way in which it existed.

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Using moral arguments, bringing an ethics into their politics. Partly based on what seemed to them like an erosion of collective responsibility as enacted by the state.

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So the state was, not providing what it used to. And the fact that he used to demonstrated that it was possible for the state to do that.

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But they weren't arguing for a return and they were arguing for arguing for something better. So what was that ethics based on?

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And they often reference the NHS values of being universal free and comprehensive. So universal as in accessible by anyone.

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Free as in you don't pay at the points of usage although the funding does come from somewhere and that's taxation.

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And comprehensive as in you should be able to access all of the health care that you need. So in practice, each one of those values can be unpicked.

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To say you know who does universality actually include which things should be free and which shouldn't, where does comprehensiveness place some kind of limit.

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And so while it's obvious that the NHS is not currently universal free and comprehensive, the kind of slightly spicier more accurate take is that it has never been universal.

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Free and comprehensive. The welfare state has always defined its boundaries according to racialized notions of who belongs and who deserves while at the same time making sure to allow or even encourage racialized people from outside Britain to enter the country to work in the NHS.

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So, you know, those people came from countries decimated by colonialism to live in the country that had benefited from colonialism.

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For example, the Windrush generation could then to the UK to work in the NHS often as nurses.

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And as residents they could use the NHS. But they were stigmatized and racialized as immigrants.

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Availing of a service meant for British people. And in the popular imagination at the time. And although they might have considered themselves British subjects and British citizens That's not how they were seen.

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And then in the 1971 immigration act. That removed from Commonwealth peoples the rights to UK citizenship.

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So by 2017 we had the scandal of the children of those people who had moved from formally colonized countries.

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Being denied care in the NHS as they could not prove that they qualified for free NHS care.

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As they could not prove that they were UK citizens. Even though they've lived in the UK for decades.

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So that was known as the Windrush scandal. And it was big news in the UK at the time.

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So, and this was all part of what became known as the hostile environment it was called that based on and the words of Theresa May that are just talk about so kind of I've missed a few steps in the story of the kind of legal changes that made it possible for the Windrush

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generation. And their children to be denied NHS care. It's a long story that goes all the way back to the establishment of the welfare state.

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So I'll just kind of jump to those final steps as Theresa May who's then the Home Secretary.

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So that she wanted to create and this is a direct way. I wanted to create a really hostile environment for illegal immigrants.

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Those are her words. So part of the hostile environment was using and health care tourists again that's a quote from the government as a scapegoat essentially for a deteriorating NHS.

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When the real reason for the, you know, the deteriorating outcomes in the NHS was austerity.

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So charges were introduced for, people called overseas visitors in 2017 and this kind of new bureaucracy was created to track down these supposed overseas visitors and charge them.

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And so the activists that I spent time with, kind of, defended the NHS, not by ignoring that history of bordering within the welfare state.

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And they contested it's justice now through reference to values that the NHS ought to aspire to.

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Specific universality. And members of all the groups I worked with strongly oppose the introduction of charges for migrants.

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Actress rejected the government or rhetoric of healthcare tourists for several reasons. Even though it had currency, when they kind of, did leafletting in town centers and stuff.

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People would come and say, oh yeah, yeah, we need to protect the NHS and the reason it's failing at the moment is because of all these guys coming in from abroad and kind of taking advantage of the UK.

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And that still kind of rejected that rhetoric. And they did it for several reasons.

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One was that the suggestion that foreign interlopers were kind of unfairly making use of our health system.

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Implied a distinction between us and that, that undermined the NHS's universality.

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So universality as they understood it. Activists defined universality in a way that went beyond citizenship.

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Beyond the residency or payment of income tax as they understood it everyone was entitled to health care so nobody should be turned away from the NHS.

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So you can see that kind of how central this idea was to their understanding of the meaning of the NHS by looking at docs not cops discourse around this issue.

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So docs, not pops. What's an organization largely consisting of health professionals and I think they sprang up, you know, specifically to contest the charging regulations.

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And that website described what they were doing is We are fighting to protect the NHS. There's so there's something fundamental about the NHS, their understanding of the NHS.

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That was being threatened by the kind of bordering that charging overseas visitors represented. Okay, so one of the groups that I worked with agreed that the new regulations were contributing to the erosion of the Nhs's ability to provide universal health care.

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And moreover, they followed a pattern of referring back to particular aspects of the NHS in its past to define what universality itself meant.

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And use this implied definition to ground their opposition to charges. So in this interpretation of universality, the actual universality of the NHS that was being eroded came together with the aspirations universality.

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Enshrined in their moral imagination. So when docs.com spoke to protecting the NHS they implied protecting this kind of more capacious definition of the value of universality.

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So what's the significance of this move? And this is the last part of my argument, what flowed from it was a broadening of the community of interest.

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And so the right to health care was not restricted by residency or citizenship. So taking it away from that guy.

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Threatens everyone's right to health care, including mine. An injury to one is an injury tool.

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So they're campaigning against charges for migrants is about enacting solidarity with your equals, not saving the unfortunate.

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So that alliance not charity. I think this is what we see with the campaigns of organizations like No, or docs not cops.

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You see MED Act and docs not cops forming coalitions with organizations like migrants organized the institute for race relations healing justice so focusing on that value of the NHS as an iPhone.

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And communal institution of solidarity whose values you can inspire but also whose values you can contribute to defining.

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And shaping. In an inclusive and egalitarian way opens up this space that allows for building this broadly universalist.

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Consciousness. Thanks.

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Thanks very much for you. This is a very interesting presentation and I think that we will be able to expand on that during the QA.

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So now we have the final presentation. For this panel.

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Yep.

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Are you ready? And I will briefly introduce you. Zitian, is at McGill University in Canada.

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And he's paper is titled. Pete Falls second. Pitiful so popularity the dynamic of 1989 10 men student movements.

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Alright, thank you very much for this opportunity and, unfortunately we have to meet like this.

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And, this is an old paper that's, was, was my master's.

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I'm still developing. I'm working on it throughout the process. Oh yeah and to start with my name is the Tanson I'm a PhD student.

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I'm at Gail University Department of Sociology. Today I'm gonna talk about the radicalization dynamics in the 1989 cannabis student movement.

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This is, we just passed is 30 fours and universe read. This is a moment pretty while ago.

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There it also has been a wily study subject because many scholars, including my advisor at my advisor, has built his career upon it.

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So, This is a Here we go. So, the primary consideration for this paper is to ask why did student radicalize their tactic and demands just when the government decided to negotiate with them.

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So, the key part, the priority of this paper is trying to address how radicalization can occur without particular use of violence and Mostly non-violence form and especially how radicalization can be mobilizational and become a major part of movement without without state's violence.

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And as we know, the case was ended by state violence. And as we know, the case was ended by state violence.

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The movement ceased to exist after June fourth, 1989. But, you know, before that, there was wave after wave of this exculatory terms for the students keep making their their demands and their claims more and more radicalized.

318
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:55.000
So this is the key question that I'm trying to I'm trying to address and for the main structure of the presentation, I gotta go through a little bit of a background of the presentation, I gotta go through a little bit of a background, just make sure everybody on the same page.

319
00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:15.000
I will talk about mostly about the theoretical framework. And my understanding of it and the methodical approach is how do I get to this argument or how do I investigate the primary sources and going through obviously a condensed form of history to show this, this argument.

320
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:28.000
So a little bit of the background might some of you might know this is, one of we can say pretty much one of the largest student movements in mainland China and there's a pretty, we can also say this is One of the largest movement in the world.

321
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:38.000
It would involve mobilization across all major city in China with millions of participations. The timing is relatively short.

322
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:51.000
Last around 50, 60 days. It usually consider starting for April, 15 where when a previous head of the states died.

323
00:56:51.000 --> 00:57:05.000
Due to heart attack and the student mobile took out Geneva Mobiles and you ended on June fourth mostly because the students in Beijing, which is the epic center of this mobilization, will bloody bloody, bloody repressed.

324
00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:25.000
And the movement ceased to exist. And we also observed this is a transformative moments in contemporary Chinese history where large large-scale contestant at least in the millions of counts are no longer existing in contemporary China.

325
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:32.000
So what precisely, how do we understand radicalization? You, this is a wide range of a conversation.

326
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:45.000
I'm pretty much starting from the beginning of the social moment. Hither and claw and mick Adam has this disagreement that this argument starting pretty much in the sixties and eighties arguing.

327
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:59.000
One, what the radicalization is a necessary powerful movement. Do we really need to engage in destructive form of protests and contentions so we are not being bi off by the states.

328
00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:16.000
This can involve violence actively attacking government institution you can also be relatively young askcillary terms to make the claim are more exaggerated or more bigger or even more radical.

329
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:27.000
In the existing theory, usually people I'd, identify general 3 ways, but of course there's more repression, organization competition, personal group base and environmental factors are 3 primary pathways that contribute to radicalization.

330
00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:54.000
Repression is pretty straightforward. Once the moments being attacked by the states, people believe that attack is legitimate and assimilate this Michael Mobilizational channels allowed movement to expand to, also we, know, this is known as the backfire of, repression.

331
00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:59.000
This involves some sort of radicalization, narrative. Oh, what I use in, organizational competition is, primarily the contribution.

332
00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:12.000
It was a, Sydney tariff where, They identify the moments when the experiencing membership and resource decline.

333
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:27.000
It goes through this as killer, to reinvigorate mobilization. It makes the claim more exaggerated more ambitious to make people to participate and more ambitious to make people to participate and compete with other organizations.

334
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:30.000
And lastly, to make people to participate and compete with other organizations. And lastly, the Ottawa to participate and compete with other organizations.

335
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:33.000
And lastly, Data, which is quite famous on this subject, identified there's multiple pathway to get into it and also in the subject identified.

336
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:36.000
There's multiple pathway to get into it and also involve personal group based on it and also involve personal group base and environmental.

337
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:47.000
And also involve personal group base and environmental effect. That usually, that the case she'd identify in 1995 was you have leaders who had who have strong personal motive against the states.

338
00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:57.000
Organize a repression facilitates group, solidarity, that is, when repression are being carried out.

339
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:17.000
There are going to be some group disproportionately suffer from repression and that builds. Whoop solidarity and these groups usually has especially in much more left as this destructionist movement they seek revenge for their own member.

340
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:24.000
They seek revenge for their own member. So these contribute to a radical member. So these contribute to a radicalization dynamics within the movement and have a larger impact on it.

341
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:31.000
And also of course in contemporary literature there are also discussion on whether radicalization can actually help the movement.

342
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:44.000
And civil right is pretty obvious whether, the radical group, can't facilitate the radical francophone effects, which in some cases step, some my arguing civil rights was successful.

343
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:52.000
But in also other, in China, what's piece they identified these violence form usually does not improve the bargaining position of the movement.

344
01:00:52.000 --> 01:01:13.000
So we have a pretty much a strong disagreement across the literature. But the Tiananmen case is the reason I go after Panama case is particularly against those 3 primary, emphasis that is the PMM movement was not repressed till the very end.

345
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:25.000
There were confrontation but the students were able to either of, either, averse, to avoid repression or, or push the government not to do a large scale of.

346
01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:31.000
He has some arrests, has some confrontation physical phone confrontation, but they are pretty minor scale.

347
01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:40.000
The lack of. The woman also lacks a sophisticated or formal organization. Student does not have a civil society packed up.

348
01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:47.000
It was a spontaneous ecology-based mobilization. And most importantly, the people who participate in the movement.

349
01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:50.000
And most importantly, the people who participate in the movement has various, various motive. Leaders in their memo war and their interview repeatedly kind of go after this point of view.

350
01:01:50.000 --> 01:02:04.000
This argument saying we don't really know by the time what exactly what we're doing and we entering the moment with various motives.

351
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:16.000
So it kind of being a way the case is special. So I wanted to explore the possibility that the radicalization itself is a mobilization tactic with distinct capacity.

352
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:24.000
I take the logic of Tillian approach that's mostly come from the politics of collective violence in 2,003 and the latest.

353
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:32.000
Book from Mark Weissinger who discussed the ecology of the urban, mobilization.

354
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:59.000
He called it the revolutionary dilemma that is one when the protests occurs in the city, it has a stronger probability to become successful because they attack the nerve center of the of the states but they also expose themselves to coercion because in the city in urban area that's the area that states has most control.

355
01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:08.000
This is in speaking, in comparison to, rural, rule rebellion or armed struggle.

356
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:26.000
Also the, the This ratification dynamic as mobile additional topic can conflict and contradicts the organization of building which is a part which is a crucially important aspect of social movement as well as same moment as state movement interactions.

357
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:43.000
So what I was trying to do is to to explore those possibility that whether radicalization can have something rather than the response rather rather than not simply a phenomenon that need to be addressed.

358
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:53.000
Truth to find out this implication rock instead i wanted to discover this generative process to show radicalizations actually something else.

359
01:03:53.000 --> 01:04:00.000
How do I get there? The primary, methodical approach, this is, largely, non statistical because that it's 34.

360
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:05.000
The other 74 year ago was basically we don't have to, accurate information on that, how we can get pretty close.

361
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:19.000
I identify mostly 4, sources of information that is archive, memoir, scholarly sources and interviews.

362
01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:29.000
The process tracing applied across the 50 across the movements, durations, from both students and government perspective.

363
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:38.000
And by mostly student because government perspectives are relatively limited and some sources don't entirely reliable, but for student sources as well.

364
01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:43.000
I first I take consideration of, chronological prioritization that is the earlier the sources the better.

365
01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:57.000
Because people can forget about things, people might lie about it, not necessarily a moral combination, but, they sometimes they lie about it and they don't, they didn't know about it.

366
01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:10.000
You events incident triangleization is also key, portion on how to confirm historical authenticity that is each occurrence must be authenticated by at least or at least 2 sources.

367
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:22.000
And he's not contradicted. And mostly, I did talk to a formal protests, protest participants, leaders and head of activist group.

368
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:32.000
That, that's more of a confirmation or verification, tools that is to, to confirm my narratives is right.

369
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:44.000
And, because what they have to say, I basically know about it. So what exactly happened in the movement that leads to this sort, my argument?

370
01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:52.000
Well, the start of the movements, which is we have a very good recognition. We have very good sources on that is ecology based.

371
01:05:52.000 --> 01:06:04.000
The movement was not in 10 intended to be, to be initiated. The students were living very close to each other and the Beijing, especially in the city of Beijing very close to each other and Beijing, especially in the city of Beijing, the college campuses are pretty close to each other.

372
01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:17.000
So one, when one's dormitory or one group of people one campuses start to have matches others are likely to know.

373
01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:22.000
And they are professional network dormitory to know. And they are professional network dormitory network also contribute to that outbreak.

374
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:34.000
This just happens on pretty much eighth May fifteenth. After the, after the broadcast, there's national broadcast services announced death of a previous heaven states.

375
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:48.000
Once they started, the movement turned, the students mobilized and frame itself as memorial events, but they trying to make more claim for democracy and liberalism.

376
01:06:48.000 --> 01:07:05.000
But the moment immediately suffer internal struggle because there is no organizations to represent or to coordinate those events. Things, information can be very quite messy and the, the communication process among students are pretty chaotic.

377
01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:19.000
Without a effective organization, it's very hard to negotiate with the state. And students, because they never seen a situation like this, they've constant fear of repression.

378
01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:27.000
That is the police are on the streets, although they are not technically arresting anybody. They just forming bought ha.

379
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:35.000
There are still fear about it. That's one of the primary. Features when we have a movement that is mostly occupational.

380
01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:46.000
Students sit there. Who make their claim, but they are also exposing themselves to all sort of a potential repression.

381
01:07:46.000 --> 01:08:04.000
That is very fundamental for how students who response to those circumstances because people are afraid they might last. So, this goes on for quite a while that the students didn't know what to do.

382
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:09.000
Meanwhile, this, the states are neither confirming or responding to the official demand of the movement.

383
01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:35.000
Leading to a very strong, suspicion that states is preparing for repression. So it started with a small group of people trying to escalate a movement that for the states to who response to their demands without very coherent, a coherent coordination with the people who are going to negotiate.

384
01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:57.000
This time it carries on, which is known as the Hunger Strike campaign, occurred, you know, it can be a little funny because it's, it's meant it's it occurred technically midnight May thirteenth but usually what I guess the news is May fourteenth.

385
01:08:57.000 --> 01:09:17.000
So I just caught it May 14 and out on a very interesting Tiny. That is the May 15 is the state measures of soviet's premier, the students were anticipating that if you if the states are going to repress the student who are occupying a cannabis square, they are going to do the 4

386
01:09:17.000 --> 01:09:29.000
May fifteenth and they anticipate that if we askulate prior, there might be a good chance for us to get the states, get the states a reasonable response.

387
01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:38.000
But the state didn't do that. States, was planning to negotiate, but they didn't coordinate with the students well.

388
01:09:38.000 --> 01:10:00.000
And the Humber, they were completely unaware of it. Once the hunger strike a curve, immediately not immediately not only get the tension from the domestic news but it's also get the international focus that's when people when all the foreign media coming to Beijing to cover Global Trust with this they

389
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:11.000
end up walking into a revolution. So the hunger strike campaign become enormously famous and the Hanamans, the huger fight for the group.

390
01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:18.000
Oh, started with 300 people and pretty much, grow this number in 10 fold in just couple of days.

391
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:32.000
The Tiananmen Square is completely occupied. You can bear, it's all of it's tense over a few times and people all over the place and the hunger drivers believe that that is the way for them to get.

392
01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:41.000
Not only government responses, but a way to carry on the movement. So they decide, so they ended up, on May fourteenth, which is the crucial day that the delegation group among the students are going to have a negotiation with the state that disrupt that.

393
01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:58.000
They believe these delegation just negotiate those negotiator are going to sell out the movement. That leads to a grip lock between the states and the movement.

394
01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:04.000
The hunger striker refused to compromise even if the states, head of the negotiator, head of the negotiating delegation, come to the square and back them to.

395
01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:21.000
Compromise and they refuse to do so. They keep insisting that we want a media reform, we want the government to acknowledge this is a patriotic movement rather than the riots.

396
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:35.000
And once we do that, we can keep talking. Students refuse to do refuse to do any sort of a compromise with the states, not evening at this D Excel or, D, PS.

397
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:57.000
That leads to a continuous divide across the student population later in the May that is the people who are on the square has this radical radical mode notion that we are the hunger factor we represent the movement and we were not going anywhere until our goes our demands are met.

398
01:11:57.000 --> 01:12:11.000
And the people who disagree with that just left. And I run an account that basically between those, between those 6, the net flows, the people going into this into Beijing from all different provinces is around 50 cell.

399
01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:25.000
Is around 50,000 people. You have a constant supply of students who believe in the core, I believe in the causes of the radical rule and people who don't believe them just left and these organized.

400
01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:32.000
And, these organized, the other organizer who are more or less. And, these organized, the other organizer who are more more willing to engage in dialogue with the government or more willing to engage in dialogue with the governments.

401
01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:45.000
Find this is fine. They have no way to control those radical those radical students. So does the civil society so does the, the workers who join in movement.

402
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:57.000
Unfortunately, this is a highly, What's the word? Highly unstable circumstances because the states are have not forgive, or have not gave up its potential repress.

403
01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:03.000
Or May 20 that is a crucial data states announced a curfew and the martial law is meeting.

404
01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:21.000
Student the 5 students and protests are to find that Marshall by not obeying it. And they, and, military are coming in to the city, they were stopped by anguish, angry citizens on streets, and in the surrounding area of Beijing.

405
01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:34.000
Stephen thought they want. They gave, these sort of a popular support, gave them a false sense of security that is radicalization in itself can be, can alone defeat the government.

406
01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:46.000
Unfortunately, that's not the case. Because there's no negotiations are no longer carrying out and when the hunger striker meet the meet the meet with the premier of China at the time.

407
01:13:46.000 --> 01:13:54.000
They refuse to, they refuse to compromise in any possible term at the time. They refuse to, they refuse to compromise in any possible term that they insists on, they refuse to compromise in any possible term that they insists on the same goal that they believe in.

408
01:13:54.000 --> 01:14:08.000
And the regime decided and the softliner in the regime which is how to buy these head of the part kind of the which is the party secretary and another poly Bureau members.

409
01:14:08.000 --> 01:14:24.000
The E soft minor believed that we should soften our position through negotiate with students by calling them, you know, patriotic, not, not, not, influence by foreign, foreign powers and not subversive, but these students are not leaving.

410
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:40.000
So they basically has no reasonable arguments. Or excuses to maintain their soft line position and they that particular stalemate between the soft liner and radical in the in the movement.

411
01:14:40.000 --> 01:14:55.000
The common office reverse opportunity for the heartliner to exploit it. The, will argue, which is, which is the one of the, leader was the prime minister who negotiated the students saying, if your approaches are working, the students will have to.

412
01:14:55.000 --> 01:15:09.000
Which they didn't. So we need to repress response with a much firmer, more, more hardliner position so that this is would not evolve into a complete chaos.

413
01:15:09.000 --> 01:15:33.000
That is pretty much the, the process of how the high level and the governments are understanding the Canada student movement and that leads to and at least contribute to a bloody repression in the on the June fourth which is also happens in midnight of course, this is PID Condense.

414
01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:39.000
I'm going to get the conclusion. My argument is the Rio Housing has its mobilization potential.

415
01:15:39.000 --> 01:16:06.000
It conflicts with organization building and stationality interactions and the contacts of radicalization really matter because in my in this camera We have a very weak support of civil society because China has just experienced less than you know 19 years of reform and open civil society are growing we have a civil sphere but it wasn't very sophisticated.

416
01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:29.000
And. In that particular process, a large scale movement with millions participants can go various different directions. And, I believe, is a key way and of math or at least a key way and a math or at least a line that we can capture so that we can understand how that we can capture so that we can understand how this tragedy will come

417
01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:38.000
forward so that we can understand how that we can understand how this tragedy will come forward. And of course this case is obviously limited because the because this case is obviously limited because the because this is the back historical background of course this case is obviously limited because the because this is the back historical diagram of 99 is very distinct And the.

418
01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:45.000
they are one of the key problem with this, research, which is always the common I got is.

419
01:16:45.000 --> 01:17:01.000
It has overwhelming nuances in the historical historical. Accounts when I was going through the documents and usually as you can see although I know a number of the details it still have to be pick and choose and to investigate what is it, theoretic you say and not.

420
01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:10.000
And of course the tenements case as a case study is limited by its time frame without longevity arguments.

421
01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:20.000
It's can be quite weak. I would have the met and we also we do have.

422
01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:32.000
Examples and here theoretical, or comparison that this could be a comparative studies, but I don't have the space in the paper to go through, but that's pretty much it.

423
01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:40.000
But the, this is pretty much the paper. Thank you very much for listening and, I'm looking forward to our discussion.

424
01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:45.000
Thanks very much Ditty and this was very interesting very fascinating. I think there are some threads across these different papers.

425
01:17:45.000 --> 01:18:00.000
Though there's quite a diverse set of papers really here, but I think there is a common thread of social movements and state interaction.

426
01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:18.000
Institutionalisation or so I mean, we have 10Â min left for a very brief debate. So before I make any question, is there any question from you or comment you want to make on each other paper?

427
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:27.000
Otherwise I can go on with my question and engage you all with that.

428
01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:28.000
Should I? Yes. Please.

429
01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:34.000
If I may, I'm sorry. Yeah, maybe something that interested me, about the last presentation.

430
01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:40.000
And I saw also the, you know, state society interaction. You call it this way.

431
01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:47.000
So I was wondering, how this you were talking about process tracing and Mostly, you know, methods and methodology in some way.

432
01:18:47.000 --> 01:19:03.000
So I was wondering how did you manage to go for process tracing and understanding this topology of interaction this topology of interaction and if you're looking for process tracing understanding this typology of interaction and if you're looking for new comparisons, understanding this topology of interaction.

433
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:13.000
And if you're looking for new comparative analyses, what possibilities you are actually you have in mind for comparative analysis because you know in process tracing this becomes a little bit more complicated just because I was very curious about that.

434
01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:18.000
Thank you for, you know, this opportunity of asking the question.

435
01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:19.000
Hi.

436
01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:36.000
Thanks, Yeah, before you answer, I'll just add a pair of questions to that and then we do around so that we can, I mean, Samarina's presentation, your presentation was really interesting and II mean, it really struck a chord in terms of more generally perhaps Italian

437
01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:44.000
social movements beyond the feminist social movement and these in a way a very complex relationship pretty antagonistic relationship with the state.

438
01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:57.000
Very strong emphasis on autonomy. So perhaps if you want, if you could span on that, whether you perhaps see that as something that is not just specific to the women movement.

439
01:19:57.000 --> 01:20:06.000
But something that perhaps also speaks more generally to the nation of the state in Italy. Right and it's relationship with society.

440
01:20:06.000 --> 01:20:21.000
Or whether you think that to the contrary is just something that is specific to the awareness movement. On the geopolitical representation I think it would be interesting also to hear from you.

441
01:20:21.000 --> 01:20:24.000
I mean, I think it would be interesting also to hear from you. I mean, more specifically also to hear from you.

442
01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:31.000
I mean, more specifically, I mean, what it is, under 30 protests of the 2,008, I mean, you say party is a defensive move, right?

443
01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:45.000
The reason why they are so national But does it also speak to the kind of to the centrality of the state in austerity policies, vis-a-vis for example the more in free market policies that required.

444
01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:51.000
Separate national coordination, right? So that when it comes to austerities, cuts to budget, so it's something that happens more locally.

445
01:20:51.000 --> 01:21:07.000
So perhaps you could expand a bit on that and lead the specific kind of position of the state there. And, you, is very interesting, the, the regarding basically the conceptions of the NHS that, people have, how they kind of frame it.

446
01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:17.000
In terms of the views of societies and their collective values. There was one there is something more, again, most specifically about the kind of division of the state that emerges there.

447
01:21:17.000 --> 01:21:38.000
In a sense that seems to be kind of a not enough citizenship to me very clearly, right? That is evoked in that year of free universal care and an idea of citizenship also with them in terms of for example addition with migrants right and So perhaps, yeah, if you could expand a bit on that.

448
01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:45.000
And for Zeta, I mean, I think you already have a question for, you can address that.

449
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:51.000
So should we start again? And then following the order. Yep.

450
01:21:51.000 --> 01:22:00.000
Thank you for, thank you for the question. I think this is very relevant also. For people are not familiar with the, you know, Italian context as well.

451
01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:06.000
So I do think, based on also other studies that this is pretty much, the Italian context.

452
01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:14.000
I don't think this is only based on and refers to women's movements. Most of movements are antagonistic.

453
01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:18.000
They do not like to compromise or to they don't seek dialogue most of the time with the different governments.

454
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:29.000
So, but also, I have to say something more about this. Italians, different technologies of social movements, they have this characteristic so they do not want to work and cooperate pretty much.

455
01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:57.000
With different governments, it doesn't matter what the coalition they are composed of. But also it is important to see that Most of the times if they movements do not are not spontaneous in Italy on issues unless they regard something very specific which is related to the labor market.

456
01:22:57.000 --> 01:23:18.000
Meaning for instance I was also looking you know listening to Joseph presentation when he was talking about Friday for futures or climate related technology of movements in Italy they are not continuous and most and also the women's movements in Italy they are not continuous and most and also the women's movements the new one's continuous and most and also the women's movements the new one let's say you

457
01:23:18.000 --> 01:23:25.000
know and also the women's movements the new one let's say you know in the last if you in the new one let's say you know in the last if you in last less than 10 years is something which comes from the transnational perspective.

458
01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:29.000
It's not nationally, come from the Italian, you know, way of doing protests.

459
01:23:29.000 --> 01:23:45.000
I have to say that most of the times when it comes to social movements, the Italian context and the Italians do not like, do not like to not even strike for in.

460
01:23:45.000 --> 01:24:01.000
This is already a difference that we see with other countries. And maybe this is also related to the countries and maybe this is also related to the fact that the strike implies that the fact that the strike implies that not that afterwards there has to be some kind of dialogue or some kind of interaction with that that afterwards there has to be some kind of dialogue or some kind of interaction with

461
01:24:01.000 --> 01:24:07.000
with that afterwards there has to be some kind of dialogue or some kind of interaction with, with the top down approach, there has to be some kind of dialogue or some kind of interaction with, with the top down approach, it has to be some kind of dialogue or some kind of interaction with, with the top down approach, now with

462
01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:08.000
the states and governments, but this doesn't happen in Italy. So to answer to your question, I think this is generally you know, usable as an antagonistic way of approaching.

463
01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:17.000
They things is not just women's movements. Yeah.

464
01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:23.000
Thanks so much to Marina and for also like the inconciseness. And for bringing with the time. Thanks so much.

465
01:24:23.000 --> 01:24:25.000
Joseph Maria, please.

466
01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:37.000
Yes, I mean, as you say, I think that the question of the end ofusterity protest, of course, the way that they, emerged is framed by this perception that are governments who are taking austerity.

467
01:24:37.000 --> 01:24:48.000
So the problem is that government decisions, so you come from them and so on. But here the interesting question is to Stay also is embedded in an international dynamics if you wanna ask for example in the European Union.

468
01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:53.000
I mean were the governments who implemented austerity, but this was part of a global Levi one card economic strategy in the Eurozone to manage the crisis.

469
01:24:53.000 --> 01:25:02.000
That's the kind of contradictions. The one who implements austerity is the state.

470
01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:16.000
But, besides you the state problem, there are interesting tensions with Germany and so on. And finally, the decision is taken at the European level, the role of the European, bank, the even of the IMF in the case of the Troika.

471
01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:23.000
So it's this complication interplay that makes it finally what is perceived as the Emma DID, let's say your enough struggle.

472
01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:43.000
Is a national state, but in a context where in reality people have been facing very similar policies. So that's I think that there is this combination of defensive movement on the one hand and you know directing your protest to the immediate target which is the government or even in countries where they are highly originalized like Spain, the government and

473
01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:55.000
the regional governments who employment austerity because maybe education cuts are implemented by regional government. Then that leads to even uncoordinated dynamics of resistance inside the same state.

474
01:25:55.000 --> 01:26:09.000
So it is. I think the question when it comes to internationalism today is how this complex specialty of globalization is managed because the on the local, the global, the regional, the European and so on.

475
01:26:09.000 --> 01:26:20.000
All these spaces interplay in a very complex way. And the question is how movements and can or not be able to somehow respond this very, scholar complexity.

476
01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:29.000
And sometimes that's difficult because you can have this. Better international protest against very global issues, climate change, which may appear as a global issue.

477
01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:44.000
Although finally it's or on the other hand, very immediate problems in housing, health care and so on that you try to address, your local things, but there are very interesting things, for example, if you wanna ask how taxi drivers find you in many cities.

478
01:26:44.000 --> 01:26:54.000
Across the wall. Very interesting situation in which there is a global problem. But in many places it is not even, perceived as a national problem.

479
01:26:54.000 --> 01:27:03.000
It's even if every city comes, you could have to deal with that. And you had a lot of local resistance against Zuma, but very few international dynamics.

480
01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:13.000
The problem is the same but as finally you are you have to deal with the city council that leads to processing Barcelona or San Francisco gains over but not to a global coordination.

481
01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:21.000
So I think there is this special complexity of global capitalism that that proves to be, you know, that seems that for the movements it is difficult to respond with the bedding with the same level of spar complexity.

482
01:27:21.000 --> 01:27:34.000
I use this concept of the Netherlands state of as light in the skin of a spaces, which seems to me it is quite useful to try to rasp.

483
01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:44.000
And this is special complexity and how movement should respond with the same degree, let's say of complexity in terms of local and global and national strategies.

484
01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:49.000
Thanks very much.

485
01:27:49.000 --> 01:28:03.000
Yeah, thanks for the question. And I suppose in terms of citizenship like addressing it in terms of either dynamic or an attic like the activists themselves didn't speak about citizenship.

486
01:28:03.000 --> 01:28:26.000
Particularly they did speak about like a social contract sometimes. And in terms of kind of you know we pay our taxes we contribute to society and we're not getting that back you know our taxes being siphoned off to you know the 1% or whatever But I think in terms of why were they not talking about citizenship and I think

487
01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:36.000
that's like fairly obvious in terms of the content that I was talking about in terms of the hostile environment, the way in which citizenship is being used now to limit rights.

488
01:28:36.000 --> 01:28:56.000
And to draw boundaries rather than to enshrine rights but there is still like you know you asked the question for a reason in terms of these are rights that are being and you know that we're asking for the state to realize and so you know there is clearly something to be.

489
01:28:56.000 --> 01:29:09.000
Said about citizenship but so then the next question is why did I not try to bring that more into my analysis and the reason for that is because I saw more potential.

490
01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:25.000
In kind of looking towards kind of consciousness solidarity other ways of forming alliances in terms of kind of you know looking potentially more, you know, in internationalist sense, but also just even within the UK, what kind of solidarity is can you build without talking about citizenship?

491
01:29:25.000 --> 01:29:39.000
By, reference to NHS values. And so that was why I kind of, you know, I talked about class in the abstract.

492
01:29:39.000 --> 01:29:50.000
I haven't talked about class explicitly here, but that is the kind of discourse that I'm making reference to by talking about consciousness, solidarity, etc.

493
01:29:50.000 --> 01:29:55.000
And so kind of consciously avoiding citizenship.

494
01:29:55.000 --> 01:30:06.000
Thanks very much. That's very interesting and also mean that you have social season ship. This is what I was thinking about because in social democratic theory there is a lot of that but there is very clear your response.

495
01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:15.000
Then Zitty and thanks for your patience. And we see that I mean we are just a bit over time but we still have time for your response I guess.

496
01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:26.000
Yeah, no problem. Thank you very much for the question. like you said, the process tracing, do you also do process tracing, which is a very classical way to do social blooming.

497
01:30:26.000 --> 01:30:34.000
But, my response to that is, this is my experiences and my understanding is how deep you want to go.

498
01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:52.000
One of the, look at the, paramount research, you know, the power Dantana men, the Niger God, or, or the new book, just published this year by Professor Sue from UCR about, they all use this sort of, this year by Professor Sue from UCR about, they all use this sort

499
01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:54.000
of methodological approach, they all use this sort of a, this sort of methodological approach trying to go day by day.

500
01:30:54.000 --> 01:31:03.000
And the question is, one is how deep you want to cut because that's, you can do in, you can do indefinite even in those 50 days.

501
01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:13.000
I can give you an example that, which is ironic that the hunger strike initiative was people, was 6 people came out of it when they were having dinner.

502
01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:19.000
Which is a quite ironic, circumstances, but they've become a turning point for the movement.

503
01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:25.000
But what did they talk about? What they are disagreement. Who do they talk to? Who did they talk to afterward?

504
01:31:25.000 --> 01:31:38.000
Those things are available to explore. Sometimes are not necessary because we don't have the information. So the unit of analysis, which is a qualitative, which is a quality of the terminology that actually applied to this place.

505
01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:53.000
My approach is that I locate key, I locate events trying to put into the context. That is, does a happens has anything to do with something happened before or has it something to do with afterward?

506
01:31:53.000 --> 01:31:59.000
Trying to build a linkage with events, which, which is also a classical routine, but.

507
01:31:59.000 --> 01:32:07.000
Like I said, I use the unit analysis by day. What exactly will people talk on this day?

508
01:32:07.000 --> 01:32:15.000
Who will they talk afterward? Was there a linkage between this to the conversation, say, April, 18 has any linkage to the conversation happens in April, the 20 seventh, which there is.

509
01:32:15.000 --> 01:32:29.000
But it will be awful lot of trouble to, prove that. On the other hand, what exactly, what are the, comparable cases?

510
01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:35.000
Well, when I started the paper, the Hong Kong woman hasn't happened yet.

511
01:32:35.000 --> 01:32:54.000
This is a long brain child from, since I was in college, but one of the key comparison that I, what I was making was the comparison between the 989 and I'm student movement and the 2019 Hong Kong protest which it has in number of similarities.

512
01:32:54.000 --> 01:32:59.000
I talk about I did talk about the 19, broadcasting 19 a different session, but that's a completely different code.

513
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:16.000
Focus on violence. But the mentality and the way, Protestor response to the states matters and that can't and what exactly what exact contact that they made that response also matters.

514
01:33:16.000 --> 01:33:27.000
So once that is taken in place, we can have probably some other comparison, you know, the OWS in the US, we can have, Arab Spring in in Egypt can be, can be reasonable, but that's a different cases.

515
01:33:27.000 --> 01:33:38.000
So, we can, we can, we can, do that a different cases. So, we, we can, we can, do that a lot to explore, but thank you for that question.

516
01:33:38.000 --> 01:33:43.000
Brilliant. Thanks very much and thanks very much to you all. I mean, this was really an excellent panel.

517
01:33:43.000 --> 01:33:58.000
It was really a pleasure. To listen to you all and I really hope that we keep in contact and we keep discussing these issues of common interest as I think that it is easily an area that deserves farther study, further discussion for the debate.

518
01:33:58.000 --> 01:34:03.000
So I look forward to discussing further with you often in person next time.

519
01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:04.000
Hi, guys.

520
01:34:04.000 --> 01:34:05.000
And to you.

521
01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:06.000
Thank you very much for. Thank you. Bye.