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Right, so I mean my background is in Sure. So having a background in educational science myself, this is how we normally start our pedagogical science myself this is how we normally start our pedagogical sessions Okay, so I would like to hand over now to Las Alba to introduce us into the topic of the session and I

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would also like to welcome Doris Bulani So last, the floor is years.

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Thank you. I'm just gonna believe briefly. Show. Has anyone seen my presentation last night?

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I'm just gonna try to briefly. Show you why we did this session and what what it's about.

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So Doris and I. Can you see that on the slides? Yeah, so Doris and I are currently engaged in a research project that looks at victim compensation files for children or adults who were abused during that childhood in their families.

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And we're looked at approximately 15, I think it's 15, case files. So they applied with the state for compensation because of their victimization during childhood.

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And these files are Interesting insofar as we usually don't do a lot of research into children's victimization from the victim from the victims perspective on the one hand and what we basically found is that traditional ideas about this closure of abuse 3 children's voices as rather As a rather I'm as as something that doesn't

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really happen a lot of times and we have disclosure theories as we have to. Push or make good or have good conditions for people to for children to disclose about their violence.

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However, if we look at our files and I'm gonna show you this with 2 or 3 slides.

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We see that children oftentimes actually seek out other people, seek out family members, seek out services, seek out.

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Friends and teachers but then that kind of at that point there are struggling after that because no nobody responds to those children.

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So this is why we have a session on silencing and what happens after the voices. And the, I think you see the, paper that is already published earlier this year.

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Where we talked about how children struggle for an open awareness about their, victimizations. And So.

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We find in research that children break their compliance with the generational order and speak out quite often. That after they speak out they encounter the strong asymmetry of the generation relations that pervades both in the professional sphere as well as the family schools and with friends, So I think it's not about how we get children to

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talk. But how can we get adults not to silence them and not a side as children's voices both in terms of professionals and non-professionals.

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And this is the study. I'm gonna show you not the 15 case files, but the interactions that show up through these, through these case files.

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So we coded the interactions that are in these case files with adults where they actually disclosed or considered disclosing.

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And so this is a we found in these case files. 113 interactions to in childhood.

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And 41 interactions during adulthood and These are the files here and you already see.

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That they actually talked to a various group of people, various groups of people. Less so, the church.

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More so to family members and teachers and social workers. That is that is these cases And here's the like the

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The part that got us kind of on the on that track so from these 113 interactions Only approximately 30, only 32.

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Reactions were positive and that or active support or even in terms of in 3 cases the perpetrator was convicted but in Almost 80, what's that?

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The mass majority of cases. Adults and friends reacted with negative, reactions, either normalizing what is happening or positioning them as liars or as untrustworthy or trying to balance for that in terms of saying yeah well, you have to do that.

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You will have to do that later on in life also. They were also ignored or even threatened, by, by parents and, and professionals.

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And you see that this, this changes really. Really drastically if we looked at the 41 interactions during adulthood here we find a much higher degree of support and and the rates of convictions.

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Are also a little bit higher. But still there's enough. Negative reactions to show that we do not, adults do not tend to believe what their children telling about their optimizations.

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And this we see as basically silencing. And this is just to show you one of those cases how often they actually try to change the situations.

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Often they raise their voices in different forums. They run away. They actually, this is a case where a young, a young kid was, was first maltreated at home and then ran away and lived with a sports code where he got sexually abused.

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And then he actually before that happened actually went to a foster home on its own and they sent him back saying we have worst cases and In this instance alone, that person had already during the first 20 years of his life.

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Situations where he tried to change the situation raised his voice and more or less nobody listened. And this, this is the way, this is why we're trying to.

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Basically, I'm gonna stop here with the, with the presentation. Why we wanted a session on silencing as a response to children and also on the aftermath of voices and also to corrupt with the rather normative consumption, conceptions of voice as Just political voice.

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Or as as as something that we have like There's maybe already some kind of a voice industry in that sense that couple of professionals in social sciences in childhood studies try to raise the voices, that couple of professionals in social sciences in childhood studies try to raise the voices and organize the voices of children, but we want to specifically look also at what happens

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when children actually engage with their surroundings. And this is, we had actually a couple of papers, couple of them dropped out, also the distributed paper.

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So we ended up with only 2 papers which I'm still very happy. To have here.

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So thank you for the presenters in advance already that you're here. And I think we can start with these remarks or doors do you want to add on that?

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Good morning to everybody. Thank you Lass, for giving a short overview on this study.

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Yes, our motivation was to, to speak about, what happens when children are actually They take voice but they don't get voiced or hashed up they are laughed at they are.

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Yeah, just not taken for serious and the team to ask this is sometimes in the context of mass treatment it seemed to be sometimes worse than to people more treated not to be listened at not to speak but to get as a reaction laughter or normalizing in the sense of all this and you didn't die up to

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now. Yeah. And that's why we wanted it to make an issue. What happens when, children speak, but they are not listened.

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Or what happens if they speak somewhat a little bit but not that clearly what are the ways of getting voice under of taking voice.

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Because it's not so easy as childhood sociology said in the first days, giving voice to children that this is a long and, difficult process.

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Which, in which, implicates new vulnerabilities for children. To take voice.

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Yeah.

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That's it from our side and we are curious about, what you, will tell us about this process of taking voice and not getting voice of taking a little bit voice and How this process.

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Might be better understood.

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Yeah, thank you very much. Las and Auras for this introduction into the session. I will now introduce into the 2 papers the first paper is named school and well-being, education, self determination.

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And added imposed aspiration by Tubiya Fajoro, Gabriel Drake, Jan Haloon, Jen Mason and Lisa Mogensen.

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I will introduce them in a minute but I will also outline already the second paper that we are going to listen afterwards which is on theorizing in childhood studies by Sharoon Ghou and I'm very happy to hear from you and I will also introduce you a bit more in a second.

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So I would like to start to give an impression who the presenters are of our first paper. So to be a Fatahora is a senior lecturer in sociology in the School of Social Sciences at Macquarie University in Sydney.

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His area of research is for example sociology of childhood sociology of work, children's understandings of well-being, children's work and developed economies, child protection and participation, institutional violence and class relations as contexts of childhood and youth.

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To be at Fataha has conceptualised, initiated and coordinates currently the world's largest qualitative study on children's understandings of well being, global and local context, the CWB network.

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Which involves 36 research teams from across over 30 nations. He is also a board member of the International Society of Child Indicators Research and one of the editors in chief of the leading journal Child Indicators Research.

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This track record is very impressive. One of his recent publications is on children's concepts of well-being, challenges in international comparative qualitative research published by Spring Our Nature.

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The paper he is presenting today is based on a shared work together with Gabrielle Drake.

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He is a professor in social work, field education, social work and communities. At Weston Sydney University.

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Gabriel's research interests include social work practice and mental health, disability, boarding houses, houses and homelessness pathways, consumer and care voices and social work education and inclusive research.

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Jen Falun, maybe you also want to indicate who you are actually. Jan Falun is a lecturer in social work and community welfare at the Western Sydney University as well.

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Her work and research is on child protection, social work, welfare politics as well as child well-being.

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Jen Mason, you would like. Is Emeritus Professor at Western Sydney University at that time named University of Western Sydney.

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Her research concerns child and family welfare, child protection, participation and vulnerability, child and family policy, child and family policy and child well-being and vulnerability, child and family policy and child well-being and researching and ethics with children.

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He's a Morganson in the last row is an associate professor in medical education research and evaluation at the School of Medicine at the University of Western Sydney and her research is concerned with children living with disability, mental illness and chronic illness and medical education research as well as child and youth well-being all areas probably where this

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question of silencing children is a very, crucial question. So a recent recent publication of all 5 authors was for example on children's perspectives on covert 19 lockdowns this is also what the presentation is probably based on but no okay not what's not based on very recommendable very recommended work.

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I read it. And another one, and that is what we heard yesterday, I hope, was on Monday.

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It sounds like all days merge into each other here. I was on Greater Tunberg's climate activism.

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That's what they all published also together. So let's give them a warm welcome. So we will be the presenter.

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The one she is. I'll bring the Suzanne for a very warm introduction. And also, I just like to acknowledge country.

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So we are bidding on to acknowledge country. So we are beating on the land Cordina, which is the home of a cooler nation.

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So we are bidding on the land Cordina, which is the home of a cooler nation.

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We're Andre, we're young people and I'd like to acknowledge a sub-bis sovereignty in Paris speaks to their old ancestors.

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Thank you. Okay, so and while this is loading up I also want to thank Lars and Doris for putting on this panel and also for the introduction I think what they've raised is some very salient questions for actually taking forward the sociology of childhood.

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Which I think is in a bit of stasis at the moment. I would like to take Lars and Doris's opening comments as an injunction and a challenge and hopefully I'll rewrite this paper as I go along as I present it to try and address some of that.

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I also want to acknowledge that they're quite an inspiration. So Lars has been pivotal in bringing together institutional analyses of organisational structures and what it means not only for children but for norms around childhood.

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Doris Fuel and Nita River is a giant in our field, a former president of RC.

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53 who has inspired really pretty much a whole generation of scholars in this field and I should hope and especially in various ways including her work on the normativity of different childhoods.

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And we were very much inspired by that work in doing this analysis as well. So thank you Doris and thank you Lars.

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Let's get into it. So I also want to acknowledge and she's not named with this Ria Felton who was involved and she's not named with this Maria Felton who was involved in the fieldwork for this is involved in the fieldwork for this research and now she's gone on in the field work for this research and now she's gone on doing wonderful

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things in other fields of research and yeah, but thank you Raleigh and I'm doing wonderful things in Ava towards the research and yeah and but thank you Rail.

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Okay so school features Wily in discussions of norms around childhood up in terms of child well-being.

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As both an area of research and as a site for implementing and evaluating, a child well-being strategies and policies and that's what we'll ultimately be focusing on here discourse around child wellbeing.

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Now this is really unsurprising given the scholarisation of childhood which is a matter of children living in many parts of the world and especially industrialised countries spent much of your time daily lives in schools.

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So this acknowledgement in much research and child wellbeing of the importance of children's voices has also been reflected in research on school and child well-being.

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Will problematise this in light of the theme of this session as we go along. But there has been a shift away from a focus on research with just these children as becoming as developmental kind of party through education and we stified much of the early research on childhood psychology, child indicators on education to a recognition of a need to

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ask children about what is important to them. And I would say that much of a research still focuses on this particular aspect.

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So I have a few qualitative and mixed method studies that explore children's experiences of school well-being highlights that having opportunities to participate in schools associated with a sense of quality of life and sense of satisfaction, a sense of wellbeing.

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So for example, David Quitser and colleagues and Anderson and Graham Note and I quote from here increased opportunities for student participation at school.

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Result with substantial well-being benefits such as improved academic achievement and increased sense of agency, better communication, greater self-esteem and confidence, increased community engagement and reduced exclusion from school.

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Now We can see here already but there's a kind of a normative overloading of concepts of school being implicated in this very progressive kinds of research.

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So our research, which is based on field work that we undertook for as part of a study that Sam described earlier, children's understandings of well-being study.

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Didn't actually ask about school. It asked about what was important to children. And school emerge as a critical factor but not necessarily in the ways that we would expect and this is what we'll be talking about today.

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And in particular, the role of schooling in this relationship to future orientations, a kind of a TLOS as relevant to their experience of well being now emerged.

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And this is what we'll be focusing on today.

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So the discussion of future of this future orientation however and this is the argument of the paper was highly ambivalent.

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Opportunities for learning at school. Was discussed as in terms of supporting self-determination. Yeah, but within the same kinds of discourse and the same kinds of discussions, and this goes to Lars and Doris's point.

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There are also what I called system imposed at all impose aspirations which situate children primarily as a form of human capital.

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So they were definitely listened to. There was definitely voice. But the voice was in a way framed and distorted for values associated with credentialism and instrumental rationality.

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And both exist within the same kinds of conversation. So what the former is preferable to Velera in terms that you're described as important to their well being, we argue with both kinds of experiences of learning make strong demands in children in terms of their constitution of the self.

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And thus have very contested implications for their well-being. Now I'm not gonna go into the study too much.

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But just to say That was a multi-stage multi-mepherd qualitative study initially involving a mapping exercise.

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Without very few kinds of frames of reference apart from getting children to prioritise what was important to them and then we discussed it with them.

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So all of the analysis was revolved around their interpretations of their constructs. Rather than us then interpreting the constructs per se.

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And so and this was often undertaken in as individual interviews. I mean, focus scripts we actually are currently writing a paper about the Carnaby contingency and uncertainty of fieldwork.

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We often present food workers as I was systematically done. If you undertake qualitative research with children of this particular age, this is about 6 to 14.

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Nothing is predictable. Yeah, you have to engage with a kind of a contingencies with dependencies the unexpectedly unanticipated so individual interviews often became parents views became focus group in Promptu methods with thin childcare settings involving schoolwards for schooling including upon restricted premises all sorts of things happened yeah but the fundamental

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frame was there and the fundamental frame was about following children's own discussions of what was important to very well being.

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Right, the second stage, basically we asked them to undertake some kind of projects. Focusing on a particular aspect.

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Of our wellbeing at probably half of 104 children undertook this but I might have to check that.

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And we've got a lot of data and a whole range of creations were created. Yeah, got it walls, short films.

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Video photo diaries, written diaries, all sorts of things and this then became a focus of the follow-up interview.

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This occurred in a whole range of different sites. So, 106 children, he actually is younger than about 6 to 16 years of age.

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We were involved in the study. And we did it across 5 different fieldwork sites. And won't go through these but they characterise a significant amount of socio economic diversity that exists within different parts of New South Wales Australia from an extraordinarily advantaged.

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What is called a leafy suburb? In possibly one of the highest income brackets within Australia, if not for worlds, I would say.

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To several areas which are characterised by significant and multiple forms of social disadvantage. Yep. Alright, so we're not gonna focus on but differences across those particular social locations in this study.

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Yeah, I've heard some fascinating work that we still need to do there. Okay, but while we're gonna try and do is just focus on this aspect about our future orientation and schooling which emerged across actually pretty much all of these settings.

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All of these settings.

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Which I think is quite fascinating. Okay. So, let me begin. Firstly, there's 2 findings.

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So I go for a briefly a minute. I'll talk about the implications. So this is the first one in his schools promoting self determination.

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So in our research some children told us about school's importance as a gateway to the future. So this construction of schooling records a cause for discourse and childhood described by upbridges as explicitly future oriented and that children are regarded as becoming.

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And Mile, Barry Mail, who is also one of the pioneers of this kind of work, that this discourse constructs children's experience as school as becoming is shaped by educational research that characterizes childhood as a period when adults necessarily exercise their influence.

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To develop children to fit to better manslaughter. Now while Smile is quite critical of his particular perspective, our participants weren't.

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In fact, our participants weren't. In fact, our participants weren't. In fact, our participants weren't.

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In fact, our participants generally accepted this ordering of their experience as a school. Say responses from other children explicitly draw attention to the link between achievement at school and getting a job as an adult.

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So you see here Anna saying school is really important to me because it just helps us like if you want a career we can get back free learning like I want to become a teacher I need to pay attention to what the teachers are saying and all the maths problems and everything like that.

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I want to be a teacher. I have to follow that and go to university. I'm pretty sure you've got to become builders and all that.

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You have to measure how much cement goes there. I this go was not from one of the leafier suburbs right so at least so she had class consciousness rightly.

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And if you don't, you might just fail it and you'll get fired. So a cadre or also the size is becoming metatolis that's important to a card school because it leads you up to what you do when you are on it.

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You know when well I just love the aspect of learning and developing skills ready to be applied in the future so in terms of our wellbeing I think that's really imperative.

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So you can see here they're taking on this language themselves. So in this following discussion, apex emphasises the joy of learning which is both a pedagogical and aesthetic quality, so it's an interview because drawn up vars of flowers and into your asks for apex to describe this.

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Bars of flowers or what happened on this day? Was that I was reading this article. I read a lot of books and I was reading the impressionists in the air and I got the shades and stuff.

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But its course is in fuel. So what do you think of being precious? I mean, I didn't know anything about the impressions of an art school.

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Anyway, so I picked this, I, cruel, they make you think the colours are blended but they are not sea, these colours are not playing that at all.

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You can see it looks like glass or something but it's just crazy just you know. So Apex is obviously largely impressionists not only because in engaging with work he has developed his capacity as an artist but also because of aesthetic one that he experiences from studying impressionist art.

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Right? So we can, I mean, but you can apply certain characteristics of education for this. So this particular Finding here within this first finding of schools is primarily self-determinate term future rounds is is associated with the recognition of developing new skills and competence.

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Where this also enhances well being. And so an input confidence gains are in some ways recognized by others but not necessarily in ways recognized by others but not necessarily in ways which we would expect.

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Some ways recognised by others but not necessarily in ways which we would expect. Sometimes it's through institutional granted rewards or qualifications but in other cases just through forms of recognition.

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So goon here by the way all the pseudonyms were picked by the children, right?

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So go in here describes a taining atrophy from being involved in a public speaking program and I won't go through it but it's actually not necessarily about the achievement per se, it's just about being involved and actually having the place and being involved in this, you know, this speaking club was called the Young Directors

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Club. So, look, these findings accord with an acknowledgement of school as providing forms of human capital but we're required for investing in very another labour and they do it quite gladly.

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There's this kind of recognition about. So if we think about Doris and Miles's injunction, it's about an expression of voice in a particular way.

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Yeah, and not necessarily frugal ways where through those informal adult channels. Which are often developed through educational policy.

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However, participants also indicated that there well being is undermined by the stress associated with an emphasis on this future investment.

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Here they are referring in particular to stresses associated with grading examinations and a generationally structured nature of school.

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So Adam told us that a lot of my stress is exam related. He says school is where you get stressed out, you know, like you might get in trouble or something might happen.

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While Carl told us that what opportunity, what, sorry, what contributes to his stresses of work and stuff, grades.

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Matthew, 14 years also told us about the pressure he felt from a teacher to make decisions about his future.

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And Max describes it in this way like I ask you like Mr. X who was a careers counselor came and he said like what do you want to do or like what you got to be thinking like now what you'd be doing as an occupation, but it's hard like I'm 14.

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I don't know what there is to be, you know, and that's true for any 14 year old, especially now.

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You mean like we don't even know what jobs are going to be there by the time we come out of Uni, actually MESSABLE will be until our undergraduate's right as well.

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All right. So it's like you can't actually answer the question. Similar concern was articulated by Alison 15 years.

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So when she told us about how the focus on her future WOODY appearance interferes with her well being, she was charging away an emphasis on overcoming contradicted her understanding of childhood as a period of life.

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Better chords for an romanticisation of childhood as a stage character characterized by fun and happiness. So here I go through that quote but it invokes the notion of childhood's lost.

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Yeah, because fruit because of education. So, Ben, have you finished taking that photo? So can I move on to the next slide?

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Thank you. Some students in a group discussion. Referred directly to the structuring of schooling in terms of its declining value.

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Now I've heard that Marxism has gotten a bad wrap in some quarters of his conference.

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So I'm gonna explicitly quote a couple of hardcore markses of education, Boles and Gentus, Iran.

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I think some of the similar work in the 19 seventies and they've referred to education as as having a repressive nature.

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So in this group discussion, Cassie responded to researchers question what are your thoughts in school with a comment it's compulsory and another student journey it's an educational jail.

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Okay, so in a way these findings are not especially Surprising. They've been well established.

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By various educational researchers. What we are trying to do is try and say that these 2 findings which appear contradictory are related to the same experience and therefore the notion of voice per se is not enough.

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So whilst the first set of findings recognised the value of education for developing skills for future prospects as an experience associated with well being the second set of findings run counterfeits for activities geared towards a future orientation or experiences as a person.

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And so we say that they are related but they are different in at least 2 crucial ways. The first is an emphasis on practical versus formal achievement.

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Here now we are actually introducing some sensitizing concepts which could be useful in education or research. So the pursuit of self-determined aims involves a practical achievement of confidence in everyday interactions as opposed to display of conferences as an outcome for a formal assessment for example.

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And this involves confidence being experienced as something belonging to a child. Okay, another Marxist concept objectification in the crew marks a sense.

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Yeah Okay, so still useful. So now that you've achieved something is enough. It does not require but confidence demonstrated.

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In contrast, Aberimposed outcomes require formal assessment as we found the assessment children cannot be evaluated as we have to achieve the outcome.

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Right, so education in this sense is geared towards form what achievement of qualifications as a marker of success and because confidence has to be measured testing regimes exist for this external assessment, regimes exist for this external assessment and children are ranked.

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And these ranked rankings exist for this external assessment and children are ranked. And these ranked rankings are then used as a basis of comparability between children between schools, between school systems and between nations.

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Okay, second 1. Second sensitizing concept. This is the value placed on emerging versus predetermined learning.

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So a pursuit of self-determined aims involves display of emerging competencies, it is learning by doing.

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We're doing ABX itself determines what skills, if any, are developed and these skills cannot be entirely predicted in advance.

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At all impose outcomes or system imposed outcomes because I was criticised about use of that term requires some degree of predictability and generality in curriculum right because everyone should more or less be learning the same thing at the same stage of their learning.

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So that means learning outcomes must be specified in advance. And a system that links what is taught with what should be learned therefore requires standardized curriculum, standardized pedagogy and so forth.

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Okay. So Troy's discussion of the value of education developed sub-determined aims reflects the importance of children's agency and self-actualization as emphasized in various democratic theories of education.

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You can take your pick. You know, build on you know, fiery, you know, the work of Julie.

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They are essentially arguing the same thing. This is of course with that.

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Education as system imposed aspirations on the other hand. It presents a danger of colonization of individual capabilities with the development of the self.

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Are entered towards reproducing certain aspects of social orders for example in the narrow forms of employability regardless of how much voice children have.

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So this is what our participants seem to be responding negatively to and describe the anxiety they feel when we talk to the Koreans counselor who is actually undertaking participation with the children.

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Yeah, right. They're you know in response to queries, Councillor BAY desired to preserve their childhood and being to force to strive for excellence in a context.

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That at least one student likens to a jail. Okay, so conclusion. So, you know, it seems like the point that we're trying to make here is not necessarily, I mean it appears that self determined names is of course more desirable but what we try to propose here Is that actually is a useful starting point?

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To indicate some of the importance of learning about some broader implications of these particular finds in particular sorry by mother that sentence but I want to just kind of reflect on some of the sociological consequences of these.

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So our results suggest that the value of education that provides opportunities to discover and enhance individual interests develops self esteem and moral qualities like commitment and helping behaviors.

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Are actually values that reflect Current social orders that children are part of. In particular developments in the spheres of intimacy work and consumption.

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This is all they are really. It's over transformation of intimacy is emphasized openness. Negotiation, differentiation of forms of intimacy.

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Central to the democratisation of family life. And we can see this democratization related to the importance of place and self actualization related to the importance placed on self actualization in children's discussions of education and self determination.

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Changes in labour market no longer favor commanding control mechanisms rather than human capital qualities favored by employees include flexibility, risk taking mobility and adaptability.

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So these qualities provide a broader normally framework for children's discussions of the importance of working in an area that interests them.

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Now we know from lots of labour market research and education research that there are winners and losers in these new forms of intimacy and these new qualities of human capital and labor markets.

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We know that. Yeah, so many you know many of these kinds of theorists of these transformation which really locate these structural changes and fears of modernity.

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Saying you're certainly they emphasize that they've liberated individuals from traditional expectations but they create new problems associated with the burden of self and identity formation which like the heart of any discussion of wellbeing.

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So these changes in anxiety, veteran's future evident decisions, families make their own education by a rational response to marketisation of school choice.

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And the emphasis on credentialism, which are characteristics of, for example, the Australian education system.

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That's evidence in standard school testing and the public availability of schools that are and actually to perform well in these tests now it's not enough necessarily to write loan you must demonstrate this capacity for autonomy for self determination and virtuous moral qualities.

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Yeah, which I have increasingly been signs of distinction which have been taken away from certain groups of children and marked out as modes of privilege by others.

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Yeah. And so this is what's happening now. So in a way we've seen this kind of inversion of self-determined aims again to reproduce social orders through education.

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I think that's where I'll leave it. So therefore, and I suppose in terms of our Dorises and Lars's In junction, this is where again the voices are not enough.

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Okay, so thank you very much. For your attention.

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Okay. Yeah, thank you very much Toby and the whole team. I'm sure there are.

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Many questions and comments on Yeah, this way of bringing maybe educational theory and sociological theory together. And then seeing how children make.

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Oh, sorry. And to, to look in a way through the eyes of children how they reproduce these discourses and how we can what we can draw from that.

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These different discourses on education. Who would like to ask a question, a comment? Would like to start the discussion.

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I see 2 hands. Maybe we start here in the front and then

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Thank you so much for your presentation. I would like to talk a bit more on the ethical considerations.

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I see you were talking to children between the ethical considerations. I see you were talking to children between 8 years and 14 years.

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I see you were talking to children between 8 years and 14 years and 14 years. So what are the ethical considerations you consider when you do this.

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So what are the ethical considerations you consider when you do this? So what are the ethical considerations you consider when you do this?

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Because I'm also working with children and I'm a bit grappling with that, so I would just like to hear your thoughts on that.

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There are many. There are many and very complex and I'm also very happy to have a conversation with you outside this session with you outside this session to talk through some of the issues.

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And I'm also very happy to have a conversation with you outside this session to talk through some of the issues.

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But just to answer your question with you outside this session to talk through some of the issues. But just to answer your question quickly, I think what's important here to talk through some of the issues.

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But just to answer your question quickly, I think what's important here is not only all of your question quickly I think what's important here is not only all of the usual considerations around consent.

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You know, and on MIT confidentiality, these kinds of things, child protection concerns. It's also convincing your ethical interlocutors that actually exclusion of children from research is also an ethical injury In fact, so children should be involved in research.

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There are ways of doing that and there are ways of doing that ethically. So it's a framework that we use to then and that basically framed all the other ways that we dealt with some of these more technical issues which I am very happy to talk with you about.

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Thanks. A heart foyer from Kyoto University. I was thinking about the outcomes of this project in the context of something that constantly resurfacing in Japan which is the sort of heated discussions about food education.

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Or maybe home economics. And this is one of these areas that May not officially be considered part of formal learning or would be one of the contested areas that children would fight about, but at least from a parenting perspective it's highly contested fraught area.

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How would you take some of the outcomes that you put up here in terms of predetermined versus emergent learning or form versus informal to think about food education which straddles this space between school and home life.

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So is it fraught because it's not valued as providing educational outcomes for children in the future.

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I think it's, it's fraught because the the Maybe the official pedagogy might have some nationalistic food discourse embedded in it whereas the parental discourse is just mostly about getting by and passing on maybe intergenerational knowledge.

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At least nutrition fundamentally. Look, I think there's probably a number of implications. The first one is about kind of understanding the norms of childhood within Japan.

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So if you asked if you Japanese children will be actually quite diverse range of opinions on this particular issue. And that would be interesting to know.

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But it would be interesting to reflect upon that about the kinds of what is socially valued more generally within different groups of in Japanese society.

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So is it contest, are there contests around gender and class differences which are framed in this debate even from children's perspectives.

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So this is the other issue about silencing and voice, but we don't often take into account for a relationship between individual agents and their social location.

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But you know in terms of applying our sensitizing concepts I think it would be about it whether food education is something which children value doing in and of themselves both informal and an informal context.

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So there actually may be a lot of educational benefit from children just work making dinner at home if that's what they enjoy doing without being hustled by their parents, did you know?

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How that being gets translated into kinds of recognizable competencies is something which would be actually a useful system imperative, which takes it, switches it back into that other system imposed.

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Outcomes but we don't even think in terms of that logic of translation right If you're doing something for fun at home Yeah, and you're actually quite developing skills and passions.

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Yeah, often unsupervised. You might actually end up being a chef in a high-end restaurant often.

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Yeah. But that has probably no bearing. Within institutional structures at all. Yeah.

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Well, look, you know, hey, you Mark cut your finger off. You know, I mean, I'm not necessarily like you should be symbolising your children giving sharp lines.

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Okay, so, but you know, you know, toughen up. But they will develop a kind of tolerance to heat.

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You know, a kind of tolerance to heat. You know, so, you know, a kind of tolerance to heat.

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So, all right. So I suppose that's the moment I would answer your question. Maybe just play for the concepts I think as well.

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Yeah, it's an interesting and important debate and probably hasn't been recognised as such in other contexts I think.

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Policy flu is something they're doing every day. Seems very practical but it's also something that is often exposed. Yes.

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Wasn't really thinking. I mean I would like to ask a question because you raised the gender and class background and I was wondering if there's any empirical insights that you have from this data and how far or which children speak which discourse.

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So one is the more what what you called self-determination and is more maybe a humanistic building discourse and the other maybe a more education as social reproduction.

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And the children seem to frame that more negatively and the other one more positively but you ended by saying that also the self-determination discourse is quite has a lot of condition preconditions to fulfill these norms.

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So who speaks which discourse? Look, I'm very pleased that I'm surrounded by colleagues both.

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In Macquarie University and my colleagues of a Cincinnati who are optimists because I'm the cynic and the pessimist out of all of us, so I always end on a bad note.

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But to answer your question, Actually, we analysed over data and I would say that there wasn't a particular class distinction.

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Guys, a very agenda one. Wasn't a particular class distinction on and separation or children discussed both There may be 8 related distinctions.

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It actually might be about educational careers. Point is very self-determined ends have been actually colonized by kind of a middle-class habitus.

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And increasingly a bourgeois up to us as their own. Yeah, even by all children and actually we did speak with children who were very, very disadvantaged.

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Talked about these self determined ends as well. Yeah. Unless Albert is having a question if I see that right.

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Please last.

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Thank you Toby. I was actually going this direction so what are the pathways through this ticket of these tensions that you showed us.

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So what's what are possible or how do students navigate this in the end? How do they live with these?

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These tensions between self-determination and host aspirations and these different forms of at education.

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Yep. Yeah.

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So I mean that's he showed us the tensions but how do how do they struggle with that?

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Yeah, it's a very good question. I mean, I think with differing degrees of success here.

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So, but the main testing regime in this context in New South Wales is year 12 which is called the high school certificates a leaving certificate year it's like the habitur in the German speaking countries.

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And that is a, not only for most experience that these individuals have in up until that point in their life that these individuals have up until that point in their life.

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But if you ask many people, often the most experienced stressful experience of their life. Even adults. Definitely stressful, definitely difficult anxiety creating.

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So I would say firstly it's a very difficult path to navigate but we often do it and often at different costs.

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In terms of policy responses, I think there's a kind of a variety. I think we can see this kind of shift to from one end

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Oh, increasing the capacity of children to succeed within the terms of the system as a way of coping.

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Learning to write essays in a rogue way, being very good at mass, you may stress out but you'll do well at school and you survive.

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Members are more liberal forms of education which just create the space. Yeah, but great the space so and often being be educational or is that the formal educational results are high but the children are often less stressed.

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Yeah. So and then I think it's between be these 2 continuums that different children take up individual strategies and we haven't looked at that specifically but they would also be socially patented.

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I, along a variety of lines. And so that's a really interesting question and maybe something that we should pursue further.

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Yep. So I think there are 2 more questions, but I think our second speaker is a bit needs to start if I read that right.

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And so maybe we continue with, wait a second, maybe people want to applause again. So let's give a warm thank you to Chelsea.

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And I would like to just summarize these questions then or collect them later so that we can first hear our second speaker and that might also then lead into a broader discussion and fit well together.

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So let me do a quick introduction into you. Your work. So our next presenter is Sharom Ghou.

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She's a lecturer in childhood studies at the University of Suffolk in UK. Her research is on informer she was in Singapore.

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Her research is on sociology of children and youth. Their migration and mobility, especially rural migrant children in China.

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Education, socio-emotions, relations, transitions to childhood, educational institutions and the nation state.

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A recent publication of her is Save the Children governing Left Behind Children Through Family in China's great migration.

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Published in current sociology in 2,022 and on the short list for the 2,022 best paper prize in current sociology so congratulations to that already and we are very much looking forward to your paper now.

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Well, first of all, I'm really happy to see so many of you here. I thought it would be just me and Toby.

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I thought it would be just me and Toby talking to each other. And Toby talking to each other.

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Thank you for being for, you know, this very encouraging message and hope that you're not, you know, this very encouraging message and hope that you're not to be disappointed.

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And sorry to Toby for cutting off the question But Doris is so popular that her name quota has been used up.

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So I will be just presenting this as a main author. Before Oh, sorry. Yeah, before going to the details, probably I should start by talking about why I come to this question or starting And I think Laos made a very good introduction.

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About silence in institutional context. And the child child protections system in the Western context. But my entry to this area is really from the global south perspective.

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In the past decade I've been working on issues related to children in China's U. About 100 million, in terms of, the population size.

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Due to the institutional context where the urban China's organization is not a complete, it's what we call the incomplete immunization.

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So in the in this context, Luru migrants can move to the cities for work but they cannot enroll their children until urban educational system in other welfare.

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Access. So I've been working with this group of children for the past decade. Have been struggling to reconcile between the kind of a theoretical and methodological imperative in charge with sociology that we listen to children's voices and give voices to children.

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And the reality that many of these children are actually not that talkative.

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And they are reticent and and, you know. In the sense that and you begin to question whether this methodological and theoretical position is sufficient enough.

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In the last 2 years of being working with Doris on the collaborative project called editing a volume on children used in Asian societies.

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Where I myself have taken up one chapter titled, Can Subaltern Children Speak. So where I looked at the narratives of these children and see how they speak.

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And that's when I began to seriously look at, silence. Maybe that's an entry point.

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For rethinking theoretically and methodologically how we approach childhood studies.

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Okay. Since it's inception, charge good sociology has pursued politics of representation that centers on given voice to children and youth.

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And restoring that agency to break away from doubt centrism in sociological canons. Intent and with the growing discourse of children's rights and participation among politicians and practitioners.

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This voice paradigm, as we put it, has been mainstreamed among charter scholars in the variety of disciplines in social sciences such as anthropology, sociology, and human geography.

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Reflected in an expanding literature published in leading journals such as childhood children's geography.

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And underlying this facade of academic prospects. However, are major theoretical and methodological issues that limit researchers analytical scopes and depths towards a fuller understanding of children's lives across the world.

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By critically examining the political, ontological and methodological assumption assumptions and underlying this paradigm we aim to identify its limitations.

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Proposed an alternative paradigm incorporating science that as an analytical concept. Which we argue could breach the gap between charge code sociology and mainstream sociological theories.

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Expand analytical scales and methodological approaches and decentralized knowledge production about childhood from the disciplines Euro's American centric traditions.

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We identified 4 limitations in the voice paradigm. First, voicing reference as representing and empowering a certain constituency is rooted in an ideal type of politics.

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Which is a representative liberal democracy. And in this ideal type, the normative children are the articulate social actors.

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But this is not the case in the large part of the world. So in that sense, this paradigm glosses over diversity of childhood experiences.

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And secondly, by prioritizing an epistemological position, that is to represent children's voices.

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Over a thorough analysis of children's ontological positions in society. This paradigm has inevitably produced a normative charge group model to the ignorance of to the ignore itself and sometimes even the othering of different charge code experiences.

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And here, I, there are, a number of cases and examples in our book, forthcoming.

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I mean, even massively large color in childhood sociology, we There's a tendency to find, go all the way to show, to represent the agency.

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But does that mean, does that reflect the, you know, ontological or the reality? That's the question that we can ask.

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And third, in terms of methodology, this sometimes gives rise to practices of decorative uses of children's voices.

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That's what we say in the in the handbook as in spy role mentioned quoting children for supposed authenticity and James identified that as a kind of text.

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Positivism. And also it kind of ignores the cultural norms in in societies where silence or shyness could be regarded as positive attributes in childhood socialization.

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I'm talking about this as a Chinese growing up in a society where being a good child means you do not speak up.

308
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Okay.

309
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Oh, sorry.

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Oops.

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Right to the formal. Previous page. Yeah. Yes, so instead we proposed an alternative paradigm centering on or silencing the verb as an alternative.

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It represents an ontological term in childhood studies. Conceptualizing silence as a procedural term, we probe into the questions about the conditions under which children's voices can be heard.

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Or silenced and the varying tones and volumes of the voices of the In other words, we examine how children's voices can be expressed.

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Hushed, suppressed or muted by multiple social actors and forces. First, We account for the ontological situation that children are dependent in a lot of cases that children are dependent in a lot of cases, adults and adult institutions.

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This is not eliminated by the politics of representation that we take in charge of the politics of representation that we take in charge of sociology.

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I think just now, Lars made a good case. By talking about the disclosure context.

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Of childhood of victims of childhood sexual violence when they report and when they disclose you see that they are actually silenced by those around them.

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And that's happening in the in the context, in Germany. And I would assume that a lot of other contexts of having this similar situation.

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And secondly, this paradigm also challenges the social linguistic ableism in the voice paradigm.

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So from a social linguistic perspective, The voice paradigm is inherently evilist, which valorizes the articulas, articulas and eloquence as the good model of communication for children.

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It renders invisible children's varying terms and volumes in speech acts. Which are often intricately related to classed socialisation patterns in the sense of cultural capital as Burdue would describe it or the class code as Bernstein which argued.

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It also ignores ambiguity and multi vocality of linguistic communications that backing the social linguists would write about.

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In situations of special a special needs settings. There are several studies like Communal Leyland and Cameras have been writing recently about children about the kind of challenges that the voice paradigm pose for the researchers as well as for the research.

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In this sense, I think, it is, there's a need to trouble the notion of voice as the indicator of authenticity,iacy or narrative authority in qualitative inquiry as Mcclure and colleagues describe.

325
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And last. From, I think Ingrid corresponding with the conference thing we need to also bring that kind of political context into the conference thing we need to also bring that kind of political context into the picture.

326
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And politics and politics. Tend to constrain spaces for independent expressions of opinions which often start from childhood socialisation.

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Political scientist Viara came up with that Mr. And in my own piece, that I talked about earlier.

328
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I recorded cases a case where the, you know, young person. In my words, talk, tangentially that is indirectly about being the lower class, being the excluded in that in a China web class politics actually is a kind of political taboo.

329
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And again in addition to this, I think I mentioned the cultural context where the idea of being able to or speaking up or speaking up is actually not culturally encouraged.

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So, we proposed a typology of silence or silencing in childhood studies. Based on based on the dramatically dramaturgical perspective of everyday interactions in the Goffman tradition.

331
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We argued that children like adults perform the presentation of self in every day life, staging oneself acting and reacting voice according to knowledge.

332
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And the situational context. And this is of course a very rough draught here and I would be happy to.

333
01:05:44.000 --> 01:06:03.000
You know, get your feedback and comment. So we proposed this gradational framework of looking at different levels and different volumes of voices of children.

334
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In studies. The first type we proposed is called competent articulation where children are knowing actors in full articulation and the wellness of their position.

335
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And they are capable of a genetic responses to hierarchical generational and political orders. This is also in my view the kind of ideal type in charge of sociology when the earlier childhood sociologists talk about giving voice to children and the kind of children or the kind of model of childhood is based on.

336
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We have this very, very excellent example in the handbook. Where tied the the anthropologist Fala described a Thai youth as a political force in recent years based on a ten-year ethnographic research.

337
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And he found that they their strategy of political protest actually incorporates the idea of generational hierarchy and in the form of opposing the emperor as the father for the father of the nation.

338
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And the second type we propose is competent compliance. Where children are knowing actors. Of the situation and as well as of the social norms but they act in a way that would Complied with the social norms and doubt expectations.

339
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I, Doris has a book in 2,020 in German about where she talked specifically about this type of child voice or child agency.

340
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I think it's also a kind of situation in a lot of charter studies where children kind of guess what you want to say and then they say it.

341
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To to kind of conform to the to the expectations. And the next type is what we call the selective coding where children Speak.

342
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In a roundabout way or suggestive ways about sensitive issues. In my studies, in the chapter I mentioned earlier, I recorded one of this this particular case where this young adolescent talk about being a migrant child in Shenzhen where since the age of 7 his whole education trajectory in his words full of

343
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hurdles and and, gaps. Yeah, he he talked about this in a very mundane way and shocked and then he talked about education as a social mobility path which is a very prevalent education as a social mobility path which is a very prevalent ideal in the Chinese context and the social mobility path which is a very prevalent ideal in the Chinese context and he talked about his family

344
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at a social mobility path which is a very prevalent ideal in the Chinese context and he talked about the educational success of him and his siblings which He added, made their parents, you know, proud and they can retire with their head held high and this is a way of talking about class actually talking about social exclusion but in

345
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the context where class politics and is not allowed and even I mean in the in the public schools so he uses this very cultural extension way of talking about education as social mobility.

346
01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:34.000
Yeah, this is what as I mentioned earlier in the chapter I describe it as the children speaking tangentially.

347
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:55.000
In selectively coding the messages. And another type is what we call the strategic recoding. Where children speak in a way.

348
01:10:55.000 --> 01:11:15.000
I'm sorry. Yeah, where in some cases where the children speak about especially in traumatic situations in order to distance themselves they speak in terms of third-person narrative for example.

349
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My friend has this experience and My my my relative has this experience so so as a way of expressing certain or experiences without in implicating oneself.

350
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That's a way what we call the strategic recording. And, the next type is what we call ambiguous silence.

351
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This is, in the kind of situations where social linguistically

352
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That voice is probably not the best model of communication. And I think in in coming Leyland's work and she described one case where in a special school and the researchers trying to you know and pack what this child who doesn't answer the question.

353
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And what does she mean? Does she mean resistance? But it turns out she, the child only, you know, expresses in another way or through a friend.

354
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So that's a kind of MBU, I think we can talk about in charge studies. And the last type I We propose here is intentional where there are several sub-types in subtypes in Andre, I think.

355
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First of all, as I mentioned earlier, the cultural ascension shyness. Obedience as a kind of positive attributes for children.

356
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And also there are morally and emotionally conflicted silence. So in my 2,020 study I published in Chinese sociological review, we recorded a case.

357
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A year old girl when asked about her relationship with her. This is also a migrant child. When asked about her relationship with her parents and she sank into a long silence.

358
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I mean this silence if from a kind of methodological perspective or given voice it's like you know meaningless it's it's a you know kind of frustration on the part of researcher but if we're going deeper into the analysis you see that this is a meaningful by meaningful I mean on the one hand she felt a sense

359
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of estrangement from her parents because she was left behind in the village with her grandparents for years before moving to the surface with the parents.

360
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And even after relegating to the cities. Her parents didn't have time to, you know, spend with her.

361
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And she found a sense of frustration. But on the other hand, the idea of failure piety and also there's a discourse about parental sacrifice in the migrant families which you know, prevent her from talking badly about her parents.

362
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So II would, I characterize this as some kind of morally and emotional conflicted And of course, silence as resistance is also a kind of possibility.

363
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I actually met a fellow participant in the conference yesterday. An MA student from the Philippines.

364
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He shout with me that his younger brother didn't speak for 2 months for because he felt wrongly accused by their grandfather.

365
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:48.000
So this is a kind of silence that Obviously is a statement of resistance. Yeah, there are, this is just a a very preliminary idea and I certainly would like to hear your comments about this.

366
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So to conclude. We argue that the this theory of, advances existing literature by transcending a dualist conceptualization of voice and agency in childship sociology.

367
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More importantly, we believe that this constitutes a theoretical development in generous sociology as as a discipline.

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Where we expand the research agenda on how to better theorize and study human agency in society.

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Defined the long term lament in the discipline denying charge code sociologist theoretical contribution. Methodologically the theory pushes researchers to develop contextualized social, political and cultural sensitivities.

370
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And sensibilities towards neutralizing the power imbalances. Between the researcher and the research. And towards a sensitivity to of better I'm unpacking and understanding the unspeakable and unspoken undertones.

371
01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:10.000
And reflecting on research ethics. Thank you.

372
01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:24.000
Yeah, thank you so much. That was for such a fantastic paper for such a fantastic paper for deconstructing this paradigm of giving children a fantastic paper for deconstructing this paradigm of giving children a voice and questioning.

373
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This connection between a voice and agency and also pointing out how often we probably produce a strong bias when we all know or most of us know this probably from doing research with children when we talk mainly with children who are very articulate.

374
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And so, mmm, yeah, and the typology of so I think there are you asked for feedback and questions and comments.

375
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I see already a lot of hands raising so the floor is open for questions Lisa. Thank you very much for the inspiring talk.

376
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That really Yeah, it really is going to take me. A while to get it all in probably but it kind of spoke to me as well as someone who's doing research with children and I have been thinking a little bit about that as well.

377
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My question would be

378
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What would you say about or how would you like with this approach or with this? What would you say about the importance of contexts and conditions like math?

379
01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:52.000
For the method. For the method you talked about methodology as well but also in terms of findings like just On the levels of research, how do you?

380
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How do you think about the context needs to be connected to the material? Yeah, that's good.

381
01:19:02.000 --> 01:19:14.000
Thank you very much. It's very encouraging. Oh, okay. I should respond? Okay, okay.

382
01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:44.000
Yeah, I think context is the key message here in our framework. Especially when we talk about the broader, you know, political culture context where the idea of voice voicing it's quite young culturally specific or political specific I think for, for me, if I'm not sure I can understand, I can, answer

383
01:19:44.000 --> 01:20:09.000
your question satisfactory at this moment. I would say the the paradigm really really required kind of a high a high level of sensibility and and and sensibility and sensitivity of the researcher towards the specific context, right?

384
01:20:09.000 --> 01:20:30.000
Thank you. Yeah, so it for me, I think it would require a lot from the researcher in terms of linguistic, you know, sensitivity towards the kind of messages that being has been expressed and also the kind of political and cultural context.

385
01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:39.000
Does I answer your question? Thank you. Hi. Firstly, I mostly just really wanted to thank you.

386
01:20:39.000 --> 01:20:44.000
That was a wonderful paper and it's given me a lot I think to think about how to use.

387
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I was thinking a lot from it about action as a midpoint between this and action as a midpoint between this and voice where there is still not necessarily any verbal communication but the child's communicating in some way and the idea and I think it falls into the as resistance withdrawal and non participation and how to handle that in research when

388
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that might very much result in the children you most need to speak to being the ones that are at least likely to have anything to do with what you're doing.

389
01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:33.000
Right. Thank you. Yeah, I think this is also an ethical issue, right? If the child expressed a certain ethical issue, right?

390
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If the child expressed a certain kind of resistance, how do? If the child expressed a certain kind of resistance, how do we proceed as researchers?

391
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I don't have a good answer to that. And I would say, yeah, and a long ethnographic observation.

392
01:21:48.000 --> 01:22:09.000
I mean, we probably should think of ways other than a long ethnographic observation. I mean, we probably should think of ways other than interview other than verbal communication to get to, you know, and in a way bringing more observation and interpretation into the picture.

393
01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:22.000
There are 2 questions or probably comments maybe from Doris. Thank you also very much Doris when for as a co-author I think of this paper if I just did that right.

394
01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:31.000
Yet those and then last and then we have also 2 questions here in the audience. Doris, please.

395
01:22:31.000 --> 01:22:48.000
Thank you very much for this. Very systematic attempt to. See your eyes, silence and, and, voice and I, think this is a step ahead.

396
01:22:48.000 --> 01:23:07.000
Since I last time thought about these issues. Ii realize that there are still other ways of silencing and in a very new in a running project in a just ongoing project where we make interviews with young children with 7 year old children.

397
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6 to 7 year old children and they have to talk about. This being disruptive in schools.

398
01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:32.000
And they find out and I think that's something we have to consider. There's not only a competent, very attentive way of voicing.

399
01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:33.000
Hmm. Right.

400
01:23:33.000 --> 01:23:45.000
Your first category, but also a very competent way and very attentive way of silencing this young tour of 6 to 7 they We make interviews with them about their disruptive behavior and during the class.

401
01:23:45.000 --> 01:24:05.000
During the lesson just before the interview and then they like to talk most of them are boys these disruptive students they like to make an interview they really love it and they talk a lot but they constantly switch the issue.

402
01:24:05.000 --> 01:24:16.000
We talk about the lesson before and they start to talk about Super Mario, about planets, about rockets.

403
01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:17.000
Okay.

404
01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:25.000
And when we bring the the interview back to the but we wanted to talk with you. Yeah, yeah.

405
01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000
But that's not what I want to talk a bit about. They openly say, no, that I don't want to talk about or they say.

406
01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:40.000
Yes, I love to make an interview but, they, but the next interview we will have about bats.

407
01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:50.000
That's what one boy declared. So we're a very agent way of, turning away from the interview.

408
01:24:50.000 --> 01:25:04.000
So I think the shyness and of the really silencing end of your Typology, which is great, but has.

409
01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:05.000
Yeah.

410
01:25:05.000 --> 01:25:09.000
You are you are proposing competent silencing as an another type.

411
01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:31.000
But I think it has also to do with being a good child in the interview. The child who hashes up and is shy wants to be a good child in an interview because the child still has internalised this norm that they have now to speak that they have now to answer why they this new type of child I think really for me

412
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they are surprisingly 6 to 7 year old disruptive boys they are very clever and they really do not mind to resist being at good chat or in the interview.

413
01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:55.000
They are they they suggest, their way to be a good child, or they, they suggest, their way to be a good child, to tell us everything about rockets or about planets what they know and to tell us everything about rockets or about planets what they know and they know a lot or about, to tell us everything about rockets or about

414
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planets or about rockets or about planets what they know and they know a lot or about Super Mario and And, and they openly resist.

415
01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:17.000
When we when we come to the to the issue of school class and what's going around there. So it's a double probably being a good child and at that way of being a good chat in the interview itself.

416
01:26:17.000 --> 01:26:18.000
Hmm. Yeah.

417
01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:26.000
In the research itself. And in the social world the people who are about whom they are talking the parents for instance.

418
01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:46.000
I am a bit. In the moment I'm a bit. I'm not able to do, to, combine these 2, Drunks, but these 2 strands, but I think we are we have to think about it.

419
01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:47.000
Thank you.

420
01:26:47.000 --> 01:27:02.000
Thank you. I think you brought the dimension of the identity as a research. Subject what kind of norms and expectations that the children you know try to make sense of and act upon.

421
01:27:02.000 --> 01:27:12.000
And we sit and we certainly could discuss this further in the following. following up of the version.

422
01:27:12.000 --> 01:27:15.000
Thank you. And last, please.

423
01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:22.000
I think I can, add on both of the first. Doris and on the questions before about resistance.

424
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I think when we talk about silencing or voice we have interaction contacts and what counts as resistance is also not just the intended action of the child, but also what is perceived and then enacted by the audience by the addressed person.

425
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So the question of is the childhood system is not just about the intention of the child that kind of leads limitedly back to the general agenda.

426
01:27:43.000 --> 01:28:13.000
But we need to, and that's also the case for what Doris just said. Roll that there.

427
01:28:15.000 --> 01:28:16.000
Please.

428
01:28:16.000 --> 01:28:18.000
Stationed in, leads to these different forms of silencing or giving voice. With respect to how we act towards or how do children act towards audiences and towards the other and I think that in that sense we would have to look at the questions.

429
01:28:18.000 --> 01:28:19.000
Just comment.

430
01:28:19.000 --> 01:28:22.000
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's a great comment. We should bring the audience into the picture as well.

431
01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:26.000
Yeah.

432
01:28:26.000 --> 01:28:35.000
Thank you. That sounds like you're stimulating a lot of theoretical thoughts.

433
01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:45.000
Thank you for your sharing. I really, really enjoyed it and was inspired a lot. And in the last year I conduct my field work.

434
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And in the last year I conduct my field work in the last year I conduct my field work in so Trump province and in the last year I conduct my field work in so-called province in China for 8 months and from province in China for 8 months and apart from province in China for 8 months and apart from you mentioned in China for 8 months and apart

435
01:28:53.000 --> 01:29:03.000
from 8 months and apart from you mentioned in front of the researchers. During the interviews. I found other types of children's in front of other family members.

436
01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:18.000
For example, when I conducted my participants observation, I at 3 meals with a family every day. However, they always keep silent and between a grandmother and a granddaughter.

437
01:29:18.000 --> 01:29:28.000
As an outsider, as a researcher I feel so embarrassing since when you ate lunch and dinner they did not have any words and so I'm curious about apart from the during the interview.

438
01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:44.000
How could we summarize the in other contexts? And did you discuss such other types of and in your research.

439
01:29:44.000 --> 01:29:46.000
Thank you. Wow. Other types. Thank you very much.

440
01:29:46.000 --> 01:30:16.000
I think your fear work experience certainly expands our understanding of yeah, I mean, in the case of China, probably there's a culture of silence, a culture of selective, you know, communication in in the book that we I talked about, we have 2 chapters of different authors talking about selective reporting.

441
01:30:22.000 --> 01:30:30.000
So the Chinese, it seems that there is a culture within the family that you only report the good things.

442
01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:41.000
And never talk about bad things. So that, you know, you don't want to disturb, burden the other or, Thank you.

443
01:30:41.000 --> 01:30:55.000
I don't have an answer now. I always sit and think about it. I would sit and think about it. You can communicate after this.

444
01:30:55.000 --> 01:31:09.000
Yeah, I think you'll leave us with a lot of questions and ideas Thank you.

445
01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:22.000
Okay, so we have, I would first like to see to ask Lars and Doris, would you like to comment at the end of the panel or share some impressions.

446
01:31:22.000 --> 01:31:34.000
Shall we use the last maybe also 5 min to ask if there are questions left from the audience? What's your idea as the organizers of the panel?

447
01:31:34.000 --> 01:31:46.000
I'm fine with more questions from from the audience. I because we we can talk to you guys individually, but I think.

448
01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:47.000
Okay, so.

449
01:31:47.000 --> 01:31:52.000
If you have more questions for the for the percentage that's I think we should use that time.

450
01:31:52.000 --> 01:31:57.000
Yeah, because I remember that there were, so we have maybe 5 more minutes, but I know that you might need to leave, is that right or do you have 5 more minutes?

451
01:31:57.000 --> 01:32:24.000
Yeah. So, okay, then, then we might say goodbye to you and I just want to ask if because I stopped your discussion after the first paper are there any questions left from that so I knew that Stella had a question for example and there's another one here in the front so we might take these 2 and then come

452
01:32:24.000 --> 01:32:33.000
to an end. Thank you. Thank you so much.

453
01:32:33.000 --> 01:32:50.000
So 2 more questions to the first panel. Yes, I hope it fits now. Thank you. Presentation as well as when she does and help me as a wonderful presentation as well as when she does and help me as a wonderful presentation very inspiring.

454
01:32:50.000 --> 01:33:20.000
Thank you very much for this. I want to go to one of your first slides and then you wrote, self-determination or Adult aspirations and I'm just wondering if you and your findings I find they show it shows it very very well cannot If he cannot even speak form self-determination as adult

455
01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:33.000
aspirations in a sense of a neoliberal logic, I think. I think your findings show this very, very, very well.

456
01:33:33.000 --> 01:33:46.000
Thank you, St. Maybe self-determination has maybe broader societal expectations than maybe a kind of a kind of a normative preference of expression for especially certain groups of children and young people.

457
01:33:46.000 --> 01:34:03.000
It may be of a kind of a way to categorize it as well. And I think there's a kind of an there's a kind of parenting as well which does promote this kind of mode of self-determination.

458
01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:26.000
Of course that's particularly, but specific, I think it's specific across. For certain of the social location but this increasing emphasis on what's called a think the self-actualizing child yeah it's something which actually is a discourse promoters, an associated with a carnival,

459
01:34:26.000 --> 01:34:39.000
authoritative parenting, yeah, where you promote be you know your child has a particular special quality and they should be able to explore that, whatever that may be.

460
01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:50.000
Yeah, you know for and what ultimately be says leads to structurally is a curricularization of childhood and actually the kind of overburdening of all free time.

461
01:34:50.000 --> 01:35:03.000
Yeah. Especially in kind of near liberal or marketplace. So you like for example, a marketplace society like for example Germany where I know this is a trend right so I think this is a reflection of that.

462
01:35:03.000 --> 01:35:17.000
Yeah, I mean very rarely to pay will parents say you should pursue a hobby because I want you to become an engineer.

463
01:35:17.000 --> 01:35:29.000
So end. Okay. Last question from you. No, mine was just a comment in relation to the theoretical paper.

464
01:35:29.000 --> 01:35:45.000
And in relation to silence, I think in the culture of silence besides that. Food and eating in most society is seen as a ritual and a ritual that needs to be respected.

465
01:35:45.000 --> 01:36:07.000
So I don't think, during eating, it's kind of a weird thing but I see it more as a ritual and as a respect for food that you keep silent when you are eating and after that you can continue with the conversation and there are literature that speaks to that.

466
01:36:07.000 --> 01:36:10.000
So it was just a comment to it. So there's I think a lot to discuss also amongst the the audience here maybe after this session.

467
01:36:10.000 --> 01:36:27.000
But what a paper. That shower gave how incredible. Sorry, very much. Doris,

468
01:36:27.000 --> 01:36:28.000
I was, you had raised a hand, is that correct? But it's no, not anymore. Good.

469
01:36:28.000 --> 01:36:44.000
Then I would like to thank again the presenters and the presenter, but also you as the audience and wishing a wonderful evening now.

470
01:36:44.000 --> 01:36:52.000
Thank you.

471
01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:57.000
Thank you from our side also. This is on for sharing on a

472
01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:58.000
Yes, thank you.

473
01:36:58.000 --> 01:36:59.000
Yeah, thank you so much for your great show.

474
01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:05.000
Notes. So that is. Yeah, that's awesome. Have a good rest of the conference.

475
01:37:05.000 --> 01:37:11.000
And