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Isabelle Ruelland: Okay, there's the pit competition of beaches now going on. So I think we can start all together. I'm really happy to to be there. even if I'm not, I didn't make it to Australia. we have a really nice subject to discuss together, and really a nice wonderful presentation

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Isabelle Ruelland: ere

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Isabelle Ruelland: it was really related to. Well, of course, the big change that Covid make to our different research community. And I, I wanted to focus with you and to invite the the researcher in the R. C. 46

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Isabelle Ruelland: to discuss more specifically, all the issue that this big change of the pandemic creates in the raise of the different deployment of community practices that just wanted to make a difference when they said that the social state was not enough

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Isabelle Ruelland: to answer question about all the issue that the crisis was making in our different community. And now today the reality makes that our services in Canada and I was wondering if that's the same case in all the different country around the table

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Isabelle Ruelland: that decided to institutionalize

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Isabelle Ruelland: few of those really singular citizen practices that emerge in Quebec that involve community, and that really try to

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Isabelle Ruelland: make a difference in social inequality and in a a different dynamic of power, including a different vulnerable person, mostly in vulnerable community. So I I'm really happy that we are all together to hear about your work, your personal work, your research work around that like, let's say that that that that

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Isabelle Ruelland: thematic, but of course about also your words. So today, to start a conversation, we have the honor to have Jeff will of the I don't know you have said right, but of the center of community initiative, and is with Tracy Milligan to present a paper about community partners in evaluation and change reflection on a quarter century, a quarter century, and evaluation on an intervention, progress addressing racial disparities and health

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Isabelle Ruelland: outcome. Sorry for my accent and my English. That is really far to be perfect. But my heart is with what I'm saying. So

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Isabelle Ruelland: mit Ctl. And Jeff, we're really looking forward to listen to you now. just for the process of of our conversation today you have 20 min, and I will 250.

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Isabelle Ruelland: I think that maybe the question can be, after the for presentation, to have really the time to discuss and to see the relation between each presentation that we have today. we have the. So that's what I propose for today. So, Jeff.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Mr. Will

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Isabelle Ruelland: you? You have. You're free to start.

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Okay, Mr. Will is my father. So I need to go by Jeff.

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thank you for inviting us here this week. My name is Jeff Will Tracy Milligan is also in the room with us. Tim Cheney, who also has been a major player in this is not here with us. he doesn't get on planes for 14 and a half hours. So he decided not to come. But what I want to talk about today is a project that we've been with literally since it's inception. or it's conception if you will.

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And after 25 years, looking at changes and how it's made changes in our community, we want to talk about that experience from a research center. university-based research center. So first, a little bit about us, the Senator community initiatives, we are an Applied Sociology Research Center.

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We do a lot of evaluation research, a lot of needs and assets work. And you'll see in a couple of slides of a lot of different types of projects.

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sort of the have method will travel. Approach to to. We're working on things. We are at the University of North Florida, which is a regional university in Florida. it's medium sized. the university's been around since 19 for 50 years now, but we got I came to you and F in 1,993, and met up with a guy named Charles Owens, and a guy named Hank Camp, who was our department chair and we started the center for community initiatives

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to try to support community, local, state, Federal and in some national program international program. Excuse me, affecting community life, but particularly in Northeast Florida. We've done a lot of different things. This slide will come up again at the end of the presentation.

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We. We've worked on homelessness. We worked on juvenile justice issues. We worked on community needs assessments in a variety of neighborhoods, adolescent pregnancy prevention programs which kind of led us into this one. we worked with the city of Jacksonville on race relations after school programs we redesigned the prison classification system in Florida. again. This will come up again in a few minutes, but and we but we particularly for this project, we also have been in.

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involved in a variety of issues addressing health disparities in Jacksonville. Okay? Why, magnolia infant mortality is a major indicator of the quality of life in a community. Usually they look at infant mortality and life expectancy as the 2 big things, the birth and the death. And so we may basically live in northeast Florida, where we have

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significantly and consistently higher rates

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of infant mortality than other places in Florida, or one of the highest in the United States. I think the only city that regularly beats us out is Detroit And the disparities between white and black intro mortality rates is significant. It's it's more than twice, and but we'll show you a little. a slide in a little bit about how the impact of our community.

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But it's more than twice the rate for whites. Black infant mortality is more than twice the rate for whites.

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Now we're going to talk about different periods over 25 years. If you're familiar at all with the United States Federal Government funding, they usually fund program for 4 or 5 years. Then you have to reapply 4 or 5 years you reapply. And so we're going to talk about the pilot years when we literally were sitting around the table designing the program with them

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carving their niche whenever they actually took a little bit of they started becoming a leader in the process, hitting their stride. Major changes and some significant changes, both with regard to preconception plus and for the father. So we'll get to those more about those in a minute.

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First, we'll talk about the pilot years. In 90 98, we I was approached by a woman named Carol Brady, who was was at the time the Grant writer for the Department of Health, and she's working with some folks to address the issue of infant mortality. She invited me to a meeting at the Shan's Hospital. Now it's a different name, but that was like the major trauma hospital in the community. And she said, Jeff, will you come and maybe represent and be our evaluator if we get this program.

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I walked in the room, and there were 40 people in the room, all who wanted a stake in this process.

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After about

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an hour I'm on board and everybody saying, Yeah, we're on board. So she called another meeting at the next meeting there about 10 people there. And so while we are on board. So the third meeting there were 4 of us. So we went from 40 about 40 to 4, and we wrote the proposal to get magnolia and It was a kind of a fun process.

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The thing we're doing, though, is that prior to Magnolia, a healthy start, a northeast. Healthy start in the United States, focused primarily on pregnant women in infants the first year of their life. Well, we Carol had seen some really interesting research that basically said, the best determinator of the outcome of a birth is the babies is the mother's health when she gets pregnant when she's having sex to get pregnant.

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That's the number one predictor of the health of the infant. So she said, why don't we focus on preconception of women in interconceptional women instead of waiting till they get pregnant. Let's get them healthy first or in extend the conception periods and see if that might make a difference.

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So our role is, we were pretty good at reading. Working with Federal guidance. We were able to help them design lots of instruments for data, collection, monitoring and reporting, we were able to to do focus groups and other types of surveys for both community people as well as potential clients. And so during the pilot years. So the first grant was awarded in 98, we started in in 99.

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The two-year period was the pilot. Could we get this thing off the ground? And sure enough, we got it off the ground we in this is important to notice. We had about an inch thick data collection pile of forms when we first started. by the time, right now, they have a couple of pages. I mean, it's and it's all online. But it's very streamlined. But this was early on. We're just trying to get started understanding this stuff.

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That's where the first thing we learned was, we need to keep it simple one, we need to keep it simple for us. And 2, we need to keep it simple because the people we're working with are community people, they they're not data collectors. They're not social scientists. They're people who are in the field doing the work or are the clients. So we need to learn to keep it simple.

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As we moved into the second phase, carving their niche, we were able to kind of downsize the data collection and really focus on making Magnolia a a major player in the community. And indeed.

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throughout the city of Jacksonville we became we. I will say, we? Because we're all part of the team. We became a major figure in the city of Jacksonville. I remember sitting around meetings with the Us. Representative for Jacksonville, Chlorine Brown, and she would come and sit around the table and have lunch with the the staff to talk about what we needed, and she would go to Washington and get us funding, you know. Get us

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noticed and stuff because we were a big deal in Jacksville. The mayor knew what we were doing. So we were doing pretty well our job as as the evaluator was, we created database. Right? You have all these forms. You have all this data collection. They didn't know how to create a database. Tim Cheney became the man to create databases for this project, and we also, we revise those forms got rid of some narrowed down.

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But we also started working with lots more people in the community.

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Again, we're academics, academics kind of have a certain type of structure.

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We needed to learn to be flexible, flexible. So we could work with community groups and really and maintain that relationship and even have fun we would go to there to the every year at the beginning of of the year. And actually it's twice a year they would have workshops whereby got together. They have a big lunch, and they'd play kind of fun games. We were there to play the games with them, and we would do things like that. So that was kind of fun.

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We've had to learn to be flexible. it's hard to be called Jazzy Jeff. when you're in in a room full where you're only one of only 2 guys in the room, and there's 70 people in the room. Jazzy Jeff became an interesting name, as you can tell, I kind of get a little hyperactive.

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So after that first four-year period where we were actually hitting, hitting or getting things going, making a reputation. It became a national reputation because it seemed to be working. In fact, I'll show you a little bit. It was working. So we start hitting our Sha, our stride in 2,005 to 2,009, Carol Brady became. She was basically running the program at the time.

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Sort of and she was was, was traveling around the country, helping other people get set up. Our designs for evaluation were being used by other people. We were setting up a network of people in Florida we had similar type projects. So we were becoming an institution within the community. Within this State and within the United States. In the country

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our role. We started doing a lot more staff training again, being flexible at this time of well, I didn't bring up Irma Hall worked with us. She actually was in on the ground for as well. She retired a few years back right before the pandemic, so

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I forgot to put her name on the list as well. But the fact is, is, her my made had a big impact because she was Hispanic female, and she was in the community, and they she really was well respected. And so she started training the the staff better on how to how to collect

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data better or more efficiently, and how not, to, you know, worry about again, to to be flexible, but to work with them. So we were doing a lot of training and a lot of redesign in the program.

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That's where we really learned that we need a diverse evaluation team as well as a diverse, because we're working with a diverse program. I'm not the normal person that these folks see on the street when they're in the Jacksonville, right? So we were. We were working on that

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2,009, we saw some big changes. The Feds made some major changes in what programs could and should look at. We also had some internal things. We we lost our executive director. Carol moved on. We lost our program. Director. I won't go into why, but it was kind of an embarrassing thing. So we actually had a lot of changes in in both program design as well as

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of leadership. The program design issues were that the Feds in the first

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10 years. We're kind of flexible, you know. Do your data, you make your own data sets and do all this other stuff in 2,009. They started saying, No, we want you to collect this. We want you to do this and include this. So there are a variety of things we needed to put into the grant.

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and some of them were very difficult. Right? Because you're changing an institution. We had a 10 year run going. And all of a sudden we had to start changing what data we were collecting, who we were working with, where we were doing things and the like. So our goal was to help them understand what the Grant requirements were, because we lost those 2 people who knew we were part of the process. We had to retrain other people and work with them to understand what's in the grant.

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And that's where we created the phrase. Read the dang Grant, because and it's we said, Dang, because some people aren't shot don't cuss But when you we we we we need to remember what we wrote that said we were going to do, because if anybody's been involved in evaluation, research agencies often say we're going to do all this stuff. And you say, how are you going to count that? How are we going to measure that? So we needed to help them learn to read the grant? But that was a major pro time at the you know in there that

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we remember 2,009, we're going through major economic problems. We lost some funding that we got some of it back, but so that period was extremely.

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I would say frustrating, and I'll have more about that in a second as well. Then in 2,014, the Grant cycle, they said, Okay, now you have to do preconception stuff in your grant, but you also now have to have pregnant women. Now we, by the way, we've always had women who got pregnant program, and we.

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we're, you know, help them with. Well, well, baby care, preconceptional care, and the like. Our focus up until 2,014 really was preconception or interconception.

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So now the fed said, No, no, no, no, no, you will serve pregnant women. and you will use our forms. So we had to redesign the the data set again database again, and we had to work with them to include pregnant women and their babies, which was a a new model. Right now they gave it a little additional money, but still it was a whole new model. And so

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that process was was interesting. Our role, our goal was to help them. Transition again read the Dan Grant, but also to transition with this new toforms building a new data set. Tim did an an amazing job building. The data set.

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The process became more complicated because you had to upload it to the Federal database. Anybody's ever worked with the irs, database or any other database. It doesn't work all that. Well, so that was challenging. So we had a tough transition, and that lasted for about 5 years.

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Big thing with this, though, is that we had to do all this stuff help transition. But we also had to step back because it's their program. It's not Cci's program. The ownership of the program belongs to the women, almost mostly women who are serving the clients, not to Jeff and and Tim and and Arma. So that process became That was an interesting 5 years.

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Finally, in 2,019, the Grant process said, Oh, by the way, in addition to 300 kids, it's 300 babies. You're also going to start working with dads.

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It's like we've never worked with dads before. So now we had to start working with dads and or male partners. current male partners. But mostly it's for the fathers that we had to work with our role. Once again. How do we collect the data? How do we help them collect their data without overburning them, reminding them. It's their program being being flexible, being diverse. And all this.

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So that was that process that that's the Grant period. We're in right now, all right. And what happened in 2,020,

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we got pandemic. And so that really screw things up. So we started trying to do all this data maintenance and reporting being flexible. Do it? it's their program all the stuff via zoom.

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because we and they were there. They were kind of hamstrung because they couldn't work with their clients as well, either because Covid was around so, and the their clientele were particularly hit hard in Jacksonville.

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It's still their program, though, even via Zoom, even via all these other ways. It's their program. They really take pride in this program, by the way, and I there's a lot more I can talk about. I only have 20 min I could bore you about. You know all the other aspects of the program. But it's their program. And that's what's really important.

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So how they do

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this is a graph that basically outlines

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2 things. One, the bottom line is the overall infant mortality rate for Jacksonville or Duval County overall for white the white infant mortality rate. All right.

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The blue line represents the infant mortality rate for our neighborhood. Now, our I say, our neighborhood, our neighborhood, represents 5 zip codes for the most part in Northwest Jacksonville that are predominantly African-american neighborhoods poor and the like.

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And if anybody does work with infant mortality with a lot of this data, the number that blue line goes like this because it's a little 1. One extra death or 2 extra desks can really throw the thing off. So we've tried to normalize those lines. So the bottom. We have a normalized red line and top. We have normalized black line, and I can't show you by my fingers. But I could, if I walk to the board. But look at that! It goes from 20

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versus 7

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to 11 versus 5

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over the course of our thing. That's a big deal so, Magnolia. Now we don't. Now, if I were to show you Magnolia, as if we were to it, it would really look weird, because again, we had. Let's say we averaged 100 births a year up until we had to have 300 babies.

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We didn't have a Japanese, but just say we did, one or 2 births would really skyrocket the rate. So we look just at the neighborhood rate. But that's a major impact. If you think about the health disparities. It's access. Well, we were. We have a a storefront clinic in the neighborhood. awareness. We have people go out on the streets

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and access, and and and I guess familiarity. Do they want to come? And so those are some of the some of the issues of of health disparities that we were able to address with Magnolia to significantly reduce the infant mortality rate in our neighborhoods.

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That's a big deal, and if you look at the Jacksonville, the overall rate. It doesn't go down all that much, but most of the reason it went down is because we were able to do something in our neighborhoods that made a difference. All right. So where are we going from here?

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The next Grant proposal is due in January, or actually, the Federal Government has you turn it in the week between Christmas and New Years. I believe it is so that that's gonna make for some fun time. So what are we gonna do. It's gonna be highly competitive this year. I went to the Conference in Washington, DC, a couple, I guess 2 months ago, and they said, it's gonna be competitive. Now, they're going to be more flexible, they said.

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So we're not sure exactly what our role is going to be with Magnolia. As we go forward. We know they're going to. We. We assume we're going to be part of the process, and we assume that we're going to be helping them with data and stuff. But we're not sure what all other requirements they're going to have for the the new process

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and the lessons learned over this whole process. There's another one. I'm an ad.

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Relationships and roles are complicated. There were times where we had yelling matches. There were times when we, when people hung up on me. It was kind of interesting, particularly early years.

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and that it's complicated. It's a complicated issue. It's also complicated relationships. So and 2, the process can sometimes be the goal. If we can make this work, we get access. We get women aware that may be the the thing that works that may be success, and maybe that should be the goal just getting them engaged, because ultimately we think that once they get engaged

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they'll become that might it. That will help their health and health outcomes the third one, which I don't know what's in here or not. No, it's not that's right. The third is yeah. is. Pace yourself.

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Remember that slide I showed you with all the stuff we're doing

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when we were writing the Grant proposal for Magnolia in 1,998. We also were in the in the prison system, doing prison analysis.

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We also were doing race relations issues with the city of Jacksonville. We were also doing

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the E of early delinquency intervention program evaluation. We're also doing the annual homeless census and survey for Jacksonville, which is even on that slide. So all this stuff in my staff of Tracy, Tim, Irma, me. And at that point Hank had moved up to be Vice president of the University. So in Charles.

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so pace yourself is a big issue as well, because that makes things harder to be flexible for other other groups. So, looking back, the big lesson learned is.

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it's complicated.

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Process is a good thing working with them and being flexible, but also pace yourself.

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That's what we learned from this. Thank you.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Thank you very much.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Thank you very much, Jeff. It's perfect. Also in the time facilitation, like people that in their time. Thank you very much for your presentation. Really rich. so everyone that I keep writing your question to the presenter, because we will go on with the presentation. And we will now invite our second presentation, that can taboo

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Isabelle Ruelland: ishijima, from to you Metropolitan University, and her colleagues will present I don't know if

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 yes. Here.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Hello, okay, fine. So we will really is in the room is about.

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Isabelle Ruelland: thank you, very much. Tina, yes, so the welcome, I'm happy that you are there. Thank you. So how to recognize

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Isabelle Ruelland: innate disposition of care. Worker will, looking forward for your presentation. Thank you very much. So you have 20 min, and at 2 min I will show my 2 finger like that if you see me. But if not, that's fine.

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Isabelle Ruelland: So we're starting at 55.

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No. thank you for interruption. I'm Kantor Rushesima from Japan.

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Excuse me. The second is the second presentation cancelled. Okay? Yes, unfortunately, I didn't mention it, of course. that's my mistake. Really sorry. So this again, presentation, unfortunately, cannot make it for this Congress this year. We're looking forward to maybe next one.

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Isabelle Ruelland: So it's your turn now.

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Yeah, okay, I understand. So good morning. I'm from Japan today. I'd like to share my research on the predisposition of care workers for disabled people here, for this position refers to one's own tendency or innate inclination, aptitude, or something they have in born.

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So my main research questions are, how do care workers recognize or become aware of their predecessor? And how does the concept of produce pollution influence their teaching policies?

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The findings were revealed that while some care workers created their quality of care to the training they receive, others attributed to their own natural inclination.

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and how they perceive how they perceive this play a significant role in how they approach teaching others.

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So this research begins by acknowledging the significance of a quality of care for disturbed people which has been a crucial topic in disabilities, studies, and sociology of Harrison illness, our welfare.

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So the chorus of care plays a vital role in astonishing and enabling these served people to lead comfortable, independent living.

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Consequently there is a need to explore strategies for developing and increasing the number of skilled care workers.

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However, it is very difficult to measure the core of a care provided by these walkers.

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For example, having qualifications

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doesn't guarantee that someone will be a good care worker.

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This is because there is a wide range of diversity in the independent living of this group of people.

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however, it is empirically known that individuals in critical setting are able to distinguish good care workers and bad care workers.

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So in order to increase the number of good care workers, it is crucial to understand what makes for how to become nuclear workers other than qualifications.

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Here's a Japanese context

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in Japan, gal work for disabled people began as unpaid volunteer work. During the 1960 s. To 1970 S.

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A group of people recorded many college students and housemakers for assistance as born here

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in the eighties and the 1,900 eightys. Certain systems were established, and the Carewalk for disabilities transition into paid employment.

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Currently these systems continued to exist, and the work for these people became one of their ordinary employment.

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and while certain qualifications are required, as mentioned earlier, many college students and house makers who have less expertise work as care workers.

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and this is because the emphasis is placed more on case-specific training rather than sorry on qualifications. So in the essence they serve as personal assistance, just like in other countries.

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With this market I will move on to their arguments. Our previous studies.

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Previous studies have highlighted the core factors of our good care workers, for example, respecting clients decisions is often emphasized as the most crucial aspect in facilitating independent living.

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The institutional systems that enable and support this decision-making autonomy are also frequently mentioned.

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The relationship between clients and care workers is another important aspect.

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In some situation. Warm interaction akin to friendship and funnery are sometimes desirable, but there are situations where maintaining more professional and the objective relationship is necessary.

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So therefore, care workers need to adjust their approach to each specific situation.

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The topic of how to become such a good care workers has also been discussed.

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Can walkers learn technical skills from senior colleagues, including how to move or lift clients, bodies, or how to manage venturators or some

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equipment.

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Additionally on the show of training, plays a significant role in skilled development. It allows care workers to learn from their mistakes and grow professionally.

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However, previous studies have not extensively addressed in it these positions or aptitudes of care workers.

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as Twig argued, they are nice carewalkers are nice because they are nice.

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and that is some care. Workers may have a natural inclination suited for care work independent of any specific training they receive.

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This aspect might have been overlooked in previous studies, possibly due to the brief that if predisposition is a primary determining factor there might be.

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raise that room for intervention to improve the quality of care.

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Nevertheless, regardless of the actual impact of predispositions on care work how to recognize them can be connected to interacting interaction and practice in clinical setting.

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It is essential to question how predispressions are perceived and recognized in practical settings in order to effectively increase the number of good care workers.

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Thus this study focuses on how care workers recognize their own protest. Pollution that contribute to being a good care worker. Additionally, the difference of the concept of predisposition on the teaching policies is examined.

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Others think these questions will provide insight into the practices that cultivate the care workers from a unique perspective.

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To this question semi-structured in-depths, cortative interviews were conducted, 32 workers were recorded for this study. All participants were native Japanese speakers, and solved as key care walkers. In their respective cases.

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The group consisted of 14 females and 6 males. The age range of their participants was 22, and 72 years old. The interview duration was about 50 min in average.

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Most interviews were conducted by a zoom room, one over 2 over the phone and one in person.

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Here's a result of this study. The performance can be categorized into 2 groups type A and type B,

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this table provides a simplified representation of the result, and I will proceed to explain each cell in detail.

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First, a few care workers attribute the ability to their own aptitude. These care workers are referred to as type A. Here

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they tend to, and they tend to impulse their strong, smart shoes to their colleagues. Here is the typical narrative of type, a key worker.

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So when it comes to no medical motor, this communication to us are the most important. I thought so from the beginning.

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so she is not taught to think so.

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and she says, I always advise my colleagues to look at the patient's eyes and face because we can maintain eye contact.

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Here's a similar narrative. I am the kind of person who is interested in anything, including the Celebrity, and I was not thought to be what I am now, but I try to teach

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colleagues.

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and another character also says that I think I'm rather good at creating an atmosphere. I'm good at it, and I have always been sure to say that to colleagues

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so

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they value different aspects of care work in their own unique ways, but they all share the belief that their stunts approach is inherent, and they are willing to teach a teacher to others.

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Additionally, it is worth mentioning that all type, a care. Workers in the study are female.

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Previous studies have pointed out that

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even care workers themselves have gender buyers or social believe that women are inherently skilled in providing care. So this result aligns with this previous studies.

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On the other hand, Thai B. Care walkers agree with their ability to their experience, training, and particularly the trial and the era method.

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This also arrives with previous students that have highlighted the silicons of these actors

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in contours to type a care walkers type. A kill walkers are not wearing to teach others. Instead, they place emphasis on learning through their own experience, including the recognition and the correction of errors.

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The priorator is hands-on learning rather than drawing sorry on lectures, or express it to interaction. Now, instruction. Here are a typical narrative of typing your workers.

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When I watched the crimes here covering, he asked me to wash it. How do? When I washed out the client in the same way he got angry at me for being in pain. I made mistake and gained experience.

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and and she she also says that I don't advise my colleagues from the beginning, but let them try it first.

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and the other keywords said that it was only after I started working that I began to think that I should just care to each clients, and it is not good to teach too much.

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It is worth noting that type of care workers are to be the ability of others. Other care workers to produce positions because they believe that can work. Co-workers should be humble to learn from the mistake in practice. For example, when some people do not understand the essence importance of life. I think it really depends on personality of the person.

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They seem to be uncompetent.

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I'd like to conclude my by summarizing my and findings.

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Previous studies have extensively explored their factors that contribute to being a good care worker.

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but they have largely neglected that they to discuss the role of predisposition. This omission may stem from the perception that predispression is difficult to change.

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However, the current study addresses this gap by investigating a worker's narratives regarding for inspiration by examining the Northeast, the study uncovered, how the recognition of her dispersion in France co-workers interactions with their colleagues

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in particular type a care workers prioritize a trial and error approach in their training.

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That is why they tend to place less emphasis on expressly teaching and teaching care skills

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with their colleagues, which type a care workers actively teach.

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So to ensure a diverse range of approach in improving the quality of care, it may be necessary to avoid so re-emphasizing significance of trial and error.

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So here's a reference. Thank you.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Thank you very much.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Thank you very much for your presentation. it's related more to a a context that that is really fascinating to discover from the sensibility of the practice of care. And it's relating also to the health. like here was the come the presentation of Jeff. So I hope everyone is noting all the question that you have

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Isabelle Ruelland: for cantaro, and now we will so change to Canada now with that is a prophet. Amenities from invested to Quebec in Montreal, and that will make a presentation that the title is community developing in the city a clinical sociology approach. So we're diving into a city approach of community development.

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Isabelle Ruelland: so thank you very much.

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Isabelle Ruelland: You can go. You have 20 min, but I think that a can table was a faster of this, so we will have more time for discussion.

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Isabelle Ruelland: your, your, your microphone job.

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Jacques. You could also share your screen if you want to. so we can close down the screen here, and then you can share your screen yourself.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I don't know if that's okay, I will present in English, following the the different slides you know that you are seeing. Now, it's okay.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Yeah. There's someone in the Tina. Tina. There's someone that can switch the slides in their rooms. Okay.

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Isabelle Ruelland: okay? Awesome.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So that's the yeah, okay.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: that's a

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Rhéaume, Jacques: What will be As you see, I will put some stress in the beginning, in the social context for transformation that we meet in our society right now.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and some general impact on city life.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and how community development could be seen or understood as a resistance strategy

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Rhéaume, Jacques: to that transformations in our societies. I will explain that a bit more.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So. I'm using as conceptual reference the, of course, a very general view of they were rebalism, and probably 2 out there is mainly, I will just comment rapidly. Acceleration

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Rhéaume, Jacques: that philosophy, you know. We spoke about the great transformation in the modern societies.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and some work, also a another philosopher and sociologist who was working about technology

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and being late, the numerical 2 that we are now using

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and on who after that I will present 2 cases, an old one that worked in many years ago. it, said formless people and street general to illustrate that kind of research we can make with the community group. And now we can help, you know, make different. Make the difference

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the same thing with another more recent research. I just completed last year with some some colleagues, a social economy community organization for marginalized use from 16 to 25 years old.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: The The.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: It is in France Boulevard, meaning to would work or leading to work. How are you? Straight? Very rapidly? The methodology I use?

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I, of course, put some conclusion. So that's the plan. I'm I'm go ready for the second slide.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Well, a social transformation that will be very rapidly.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: totally air. But I think it's quite important to realize that there are big changes we know that in our society I'm using for this main idea of work from from arm with Rosa this philosopher wrote,

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I just mentioned the title here.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: but it speed by itself acceleration.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: a social critique of our time, and when I was trying to summarize, his main idea could be seen like that. The tendency in our way of living 2 days in daily life at work in communication with others is dominated by a movement of acceleration, performing more teams, variety of activities in lesser times.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and always always in the some of it is a very, I I would say, restraining present. So acceleration means that performing a variety of things in lesser times.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: we're doing many things at the same time, even at home, at work in our education with the children everything. We try to maintain all that, and as fast and performance as performing all the time.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Well, Eric, said they. They now did the other reference I would like to to to use completing that. we can say that the numerical tools, like iphones, computers, robot zoom

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and support that tendency.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So we'll try to do in very, very rapid time, you know. Maybe just before I I I join you with Zoom or something, or working on a text, or our reading. Or you know, television. So we try to maximize all the time that the the the activities we are.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: And Eric said I also he wrote a 2 books specially. I just mentioned the first one very interesting

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Rhéaume, Jacques: silly colours. I see Cincinnati, silly colonization that that plays with Silicon Valley

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the building up of the Numerical age.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: you know, with Bill Gates and people like that and colonization, because from that starting point. It comes to being like the gaffa of those big

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Rhéaume, Jacques: whole words of the computer platforms and everything delivery dominating right now the whole process of numerical age. So that's very interesting to to from this book, and he in copied it that with another one.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the era of the tyrannical individual.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the end of the common world.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: That's very heavy as a consequence. So that's what's called a paradox here.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: The more

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and more virtual and organize a person. Life is through. Machines have an isolating consequence for people.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: As a total, self-sufficient individual.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the individual can manage their life by themselves more and more, and we have tools to do that.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: so they have the impression

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Rhéaume, Jacques: that they can conquer, concur. The world because they are used to many kinds of tools. They can always be connected.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: always be informed, always be productive.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and more and more.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and that, of course, differs from maybe with the age I, your key, and everything.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: of course, rich and educated people can adapt to more easily in that context, and poorer runs or more marginalized group.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and many of that are especially even more marginalized.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I'm referring here another. After that we'll put the con console itself is the phosphate U. B. The French author.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: We just wrote a book quite provocative in a way what he was when he was saying, all in equal and all singulars.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the more we are an equal, the more also we are singular, so we don't have to play in common

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the the the of inequality. So that's very interesting. So that's the they would say the back scene.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: What I, I think, is to be addressed

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Rhéaume, Jacques: has has a resistance strategy to overcome those tendencies. And I think that community development is very, very nice, important to for that.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: But I'm ready for the next slide.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Clinical intervention and research just to very rapidly here the usual classical process, but more and more hard to to realize, you know. So usually when we make a research, it always our, it's also research and intervention. At the same time, it's actually research as we, as we said that that long ago.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So we need to start from a social requests

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and establish a contract between researchers and participants

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and partnership more, more, more or less institutional, is always required.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: For example, I will give an example in the 2 examples coming on after we are then to proceed with Co. Analysis with the community group

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Rhéaume, Jacques: of their own experience, of their social context and problems.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and leading that to results. Some results of that analysis leading to action with some planning, some experimentation by the community group itself.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and, of course, evaluation at the end of that.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: as a theoretical frame

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Rhéaume, Jacques: for me, community development is always based on some strategy for more empowerment.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: And we're developing a critical social view consciousness reading with, say, Paolo Fredi.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: if we take that from the from the from the this great altar in Brazil.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So how the the A. Was always to rebuilding a self and collective identity.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I'm ready for the next line

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Rhéaume, Jacques: very rapidly. 2 experiences. One is Lieutenant, as I, I announced. It's the production of a street journal

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Rhéaume, Jacques: The participants were homeless people that were recruited at the beginning of that experience in 1,988, having drug construction problems.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: It was the request was we evaluate the group experience for a virtual development, and the request was made in 2,001. So the group has a long experience, and of course I would like to have right now. The group is still working.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: It's in Iran is still produce in Montreal, and there is also a cafe on the street. So the group is still there. That means 30 35 years later.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: That's an interesting to Keep in mind that. So it's not only some, some a very rapid experience. But long term community development

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and boulevard is the other way. They are the case. Social economy groups for you.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: And it was started in 1,983. That means 40 years ago.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: with professionals working with young trainees that are young people from 16 to 7 to to 25 years old, and they produce furniture.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: to this a short training. It's about

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Rhéaume, Jacques: in 9 months to a year.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and after that there is a follow up, but the then they are replaced by a hundred. But the the group itself is still working since that time.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and then the same. Then that second case, we also have the request. We evaluate the group experience for virtual development, and I indicate that some of my colleagues there is still important to know that all those, those those 2 cases, were from the University.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: There was a request for university support services, and the leaders of the those community groups to form partnership at the beginning with the people from both to researchers and participants.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Mixed methodology in all those cases we use survey individual and collective life story.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: for like and in with, we know there not survey we made by questionnaire, but the statistical analysis with segundary data

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and the individual and collective lives to reach just the same.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: It's already to the like the other slide.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: enough to accelerate, I think. Well, just to say that the life stories was a main tool for me to develop analysis of this situation. They were individual and they were collective.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: That means that when we've finished some individual analysis within the. We then put the some

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Rhéaume, Jacques: larger issues with the call of collective, with the group, as a call it the group forming the direction of it. It's the 700 participants can go to the auto slides.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Hmm. Some results for the first study.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: well, with truth, the life stories we learned that they were coming live difficulties or the participant members of that group family school. Lots of job drugs, a process in form in many years of social marginalization.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: But there was a basic coming view of life through the experiment that was still on and the basis of that community involvement.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: What a strong taste for an intensive living in the present. like the drug trip was. But now they can convert that

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Rhéaume, Jacques: transform that into our doing a real life in the community experience.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So that's what's really interesting to see how that mission that that the view of a living and intensive living

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Rhéaume, Jacques: has to be remade

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Rhéaume, Jacques: in an ordinary experience.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So they were really working out on that.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: And the type of expertise, the experience as drug dealers or drug consumers were in some in some ways transformed by the street general production. Some of them became good writers.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: with sellers in the streets.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: good good leadership and organizing events.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: They they were built up on the the person's ability that was used before another context completely. But now, in more ordinary experience

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and actual sure, that was the main result of this whole experience of 3 years study

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Rhéaume, Jacques: is how the group work to become an alternative way of living in our society.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Of course we, needing internal and external support.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: but not as they said. And then the group not getting in the normal life, like, you know, working for a bus, and and then the going to such and such consumption strategy, but really living in it, and the alternative way of living still producing that the newspaper to express their view of society.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and still meeting with people and try to make them making a better life without drugs or without All other kind of marginalized activities.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Grief In brief, I think that the experience we made with them was how they could them. we can. We could see a personal and active citizen in a citizenship life recovered in some way.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: of course, with limits. But still.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: next this file I'm the to Long Guru.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I I will skip, I think the details, but the it's not the same kind of story, but for young people. And the the was what we identified in the different statistics, national and and local, as being the needs, people not being in education, they left school early.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: not being in employment, no job. not even having some kind of training

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Rhéaume, Jacques: when coming in that experience of Bulu there.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and as the international stresses in that situation they are, they are in closing a sort of sticky floor experience very hard to go up and go out of that.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So that's once the the the next line.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Well, I skipped that through the details. But what It was interesting. We discovered that the true that the screening experience and the follow up with some help from the professionals in the group.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: many people the really really discovered, some of them more, this kind of a rediscovery or possible process. Professional light.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: That's what the main idea of the whole group, you know, to lead to a possibility of getting interested in more in work again.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Another dimension, much important it was also for most of them

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the rebuilding or personal self esteem and development.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and for because there were some new commerce or migrants in the group, it was for many an entire cultural opening experience as a sort of a transitional experience in Quebec.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: So all those were very important. I would say, results of that research that we made also in 3 years, in the, in different interviews individual and in groups.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: We're looking now to the conclusion, I think

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the next one.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: How these community group experience, we just, you know, started a bit towards very rapid facilitate, as I see it, a real empowerment of individual, based on a significant and strong collective experience.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Some dimensions are to be alighted

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Rhéaume, Jacques: from a researcher. From the researcher point of view, from a clinical sociology perspective.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I think they may not. The main the idea is, produce a partnership leading both to parties. to a clearer understanding of the dynamic social process involved that worked in partnership is central in this kind of research.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the life's narrative, individual and collective.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Let the participant in the old community grow to a significant new understanding of their experience. That was very clear in both cases.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and those group counts on strong elements

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Rhéaume, Jacques: to help you vulnerable and regionalize people, to get a new life in a way.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: a strong collective interaction open to a diversity of life, experience of the members.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: a productive experience through work.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: either a producing a street journal in one case, or producing for an issue in the other. So they have something to do together.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: That was very important.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: And finally, of course.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: a personal and interpersonal support from leaders and professionals that are needed in that kind of experience. So hold those experiences, I think for me. Really, really, I come to your resistance, I would say

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Rhéaume, Jacques: to this mainstream being is related, being a self-sufficient being, dominated by acceleration.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: and I would say a productive incidents all the time.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Thank you for listening a bit long. I would say a little too long. Okay, that's fine. We have times right? Thank you very much.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Thank you very much for your presentation. We dive more into a community

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Isabelle Ruelland: development initiative, and I think it was interesting to see it as a a lever for collective empowerment and a counter cultural dimension in our society that is, been accelerated. So we have different experience from projects deeply into practices and more widely into community development. It's really rich.

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Isabelle Ruelland: and we have the chance to have a last but not least presentation in friends. Now from France I think you are, Louisa.

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Isabelle Ruelland: will be perfect moment. That will talk about lies in debate round. The practice and the formation of social worker in the context of

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Isabelle Ruelland: so well. 20 min. Also, we have a lot of time, and I remember everyone to write down their question to every presentation, to every presentator, and then we will. Can have a really nice discussion at the end. So weizzala paoli tat. Well.

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Louisa Baralonga: problem is

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Louisa Baralonga: from the

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Louisa Baralonga: hmm.

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Louisa Baralonga: I know he do

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Isabelle Ruelland: it. It was a really a a deep and sensitive work, with a delicate subject involving community to make a summary in English. So it, I hope everyone follow up with the the Powerpoint that she make it in English. And I hope there's a lot of people that that understand French. That was a really, really, really nice presentation, like the the 4 of

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Isabelle Ruelland: the presentation we have today. So now it's the time, the precious time that we have. We have around 20 min to address our question, our interrogation. I will invitate people to maybe try to make connection between the presentation, because I'm seeing a lot of

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mit

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Isabelle Ruelland: on them. So Tina, we will do a team work here. because I'm not seeing the the the people in the room. I'm seeing that there's a Michael professor of, and Melody and Hava and one postpa here, your feel free to open your camera. It will be at the moment that we can talk

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Isabelle Ruelland: to on each other.

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Isabelle Ruelland: So there's a question in the room. Maybe

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it is about. Perhaps if I could start.

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I have a few questions. Yeah, I first would like to say, thank you very much to all 4 of the presenters for very interesting face in the in the screen, please. We will really appreciate to see you here.

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Isabelle Ruelland: I'm sorry to ask that. It's just because I want to see you. I mean.

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okay, yeah, I would like to say thank you very much to all for presenters. It was really fascinating. papers. Unfortunately, my friend, she's not very good, so I, but I would like to ask some questions just for brief questions to each of the presenters.

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firstly, to Jeff.

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What I would like to understand is. This is really fascinating work that you're doing.

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So what I would like to understand is in terms of the grant the grants that you apply for. So you apply for the grant.

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But the grant is the grant only for your evaluation work with the grant for that project to be able to continue, and you do the evaluation in order to sure that the ensure that the ground can continue. So that is what I would like to ask you. And then? for Kintari.

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Oh, yeah.

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yeah. you you distinguish between the 2. 2 kinds of predispositions. Now, did you? Did you think about some kinds of interventions for K workers who have different kinds of predispositions. How one could work to improve the the the quality of the key that they provide.

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And then for sure! Oh, for Jog! I wanted to ask Jog the the one group with the homeless people. So those homeless people, the ones who had the drug problems

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all day throughout this process, still remaining homeless. or have they found? You know I I get the impression that they still homeless, but they creating this alternative, living as as homeless people. But they have overcome the the drug issues. So if you could just give some clarity.

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And then for Louisa. A.

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Okay.

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the the attacks that you're talking about. It wasn't quite clear to me who, you know. you talk about Secularism now I know France has a strong emphasis on Secularism.

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The attacks that happened in France, as I understand it, generally tend to be aimed against a different religions, or do I misunderstand that so? Is the whole idea of your intervention to To develop a kind of understanding of Secularist. views, or

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exactly how does it work. So just out me. They I got a bit confused.

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I'll go first and answer that basically The Magnolia project is funded by the Federal Government directly to the healthy start coalition in northeast Florida. They subcontract to us to do the evaluation. The contract is something along the lines of 1.2 million dollars a year, and then we get a small portion of that to do the evaluation. But the vast majority of the money goes directly to service provisions.

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Thank you for your Christian.

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I'm afraid I can give different answers. But in Japanese context many care workers quiz their job because of the absence of instruction, because training and experience is more emphasized in this situation. So if

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senior care workers, senior colleagues give concrete instruction to junior or other care workers, they can. They can get much knowledge, and we can

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save many kill workers. So this is important. Of course, it is important. It is true that the training and experience is important, but if we emphasize too much, they

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or not, they get not wearing to teach others because they focus on training too much during our triangular toy around. Too much so I think we should avoid to

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 emphasize the importance of training, and then they can share their knowledge or attitudes to other colleagues which will improve the increase in the number of care workers, and then improve their cordial care.

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Thank you.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Yesterday our friend said, the question for him from Tina twice about the the hard is still homeless in the experience of

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Rhéaume, Jacques: no. Usually when they join the the to the newspaper production

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Rhéaume, Jacques: is to have better their life, you know, because they they send, they they sell the the the journal, and they have some found founding also

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Rhéaume, Jacques: what they can, and better their life, but not

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Rhéaume, Jacques: I would say, joining we say big house and everything. Most of them are precarious kind of

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Rhéaume, Jacques: living in chambers in the small small rooms or things like that, but they are not no more homeless in the street, I would say, and they quit most of them drug. They are consuming so things their life. So the

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Rhéaume, Jacques: the

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Rhéaume, Jacques: it's it's a I'm better than I would basic 5. But they are still no, not in a very they're not getting getting to be bottom fat. My middle class, usual. consumers.

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Isabelle Ruelland: They were a question that was addressed. I don't know if you want to answer Tina.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Your microphone. Your microphone is close. Wait.

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Louisa Baralonga: Hi! sorry, but I I try to to respond. Perhaps in in English, if I I can say something. So in in France there is a preciposition in the education political balance like to reduce terrorists, we could be combined, combated by a better appropriation of the values of securities.

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Louisa Baralonga: Thank you for for your

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Isabelle Ruelland: yeah, for with the the Republicans, probably. So I don't know. Tonight there's some question, if not I. I have a few questions also.

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Isabelle Ruelland: so I will go on with my question. Maybe I'm not

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Isabelle Ruelland: okay, perfect. So I have a question for Jeff, really, really interesting of the presentation. And really your work of a duration, a historical process. I think long experiment is really rare in our our times, diving into experience and and

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Isabelle Ruelland: having the possibility to go further and deeper with the community and and seeing the impact

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Isabelle Ruelland: in the community of our work is, it's a really humongous experience that you share with us. I was wondering more in relation with the the the panel proposal. Our citizen were involved. Maybe some example, you say that is their program, is it? It is their program. But can you illustrate it in a more like your

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Isabelle Ruelland: a concrete way with example of our they have been of they they make it their project.

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Isabelle Ruelland: so maybe I will jump in with my question now to ken taro

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Isabelle Ruelland: I I really appreciate to understand a little bit more deeply the the work and the situation of care worker in Japan. And I see a lot of relation with what is happening in Canada with the the Critique also, but with the the difficulty to understand deeply what is that work. And I would like to know if.

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Isabelle Ruelland: because of the precarity of their condition and the lack of a of acknowledged of our work, recognized sounds. But come on in the recognition of the specification of their work, if there's any. I don't know if it's labor movement, but resistance from their part, if they organize collectively, to, to, to, to, to, to to the people the importance

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Isabelle Ruelland: of their work, and to change their condition. That's some time or precarious. So I would like to let to hear you about the maybe the the political action of their act beyond their work. And the is specificity.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Thank you very much.

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If I get, I guess I can give a couple of examples in a rationale, I guess about what I mean by stare program. The first thing is is that often we would be approached by folks in the people in the program, not the clients, the workers or the staff, and the and the directors saying, What should we do? And that's where we we really need to say, what what would you like to do? What's your program? How can we help you decide that kind of stuff?

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But as far as their them, taking control and making it their program. They had a variety of things they did early on the first. a pilot project in the first, the next 5 years

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they actually had a community of outreach team that would go out on Thursday nights. Friday nights would go out to the rest, to the bars, would go out to hair salons, which in the community is a big deal to go to the hair salon and would sit and talk with the women, and they took it. They took ownership of the program. They also had a community council which the first, I'd say

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10 years consisted of primarily elderly women in the neighborhood who were the moms and the grandmas, and they actually, now that they would, they weren't the only part of people in that community, because they also had service providers and stuff. But they had a lot of folks from the community on the Community Council to help direct where the program should go and what should be done. For example, at 1 point early on they said, people can't get to the clinic. They need a bus. So they got a man. They were given a man by a group that was something their initiative.

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now it's transition, some because of the Federal Government. But now they have what they call the community Action network, which is, they bring together both clients as well as other service providers, to kind of sit around the table and say, what? What are we all doing that works together? How can we communicate together? And what do we need to do? Different? So that that's how I mean by. They take. It's their program. We had to actually step back from doing too much of the direction. Because.

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we're the sociologists on the side trying to help analyze the program, and I've never been a service provider. So I don't really know how to do that. So that was, that's what how we wanted to take it as their program.

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Isabelle Ruelland: There's something written about those practices just to.

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Isabelle Ruelland: I would like to know more. But that's okay. Sorry we we we're in the process of writing this all up and hopefully publishing it in Tina's new journal. So that's that's our goal. So I'm really looking for her to read it.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Sorry we can travel.

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H

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So of course there is some private harvest, but mostly several people are not a free rent, so most of them cannot use private systems, or they are supported by national assistance. So their wages. is not so bad, but not so good, so

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so it is. As you say, it is. Need is to some social movement. But in Japan

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a social movement of these several people, led by, of course, disabled people, and they try to and try to.

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But in these days, and some care workers try to call. They're more much racist.

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And

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yeah. But in

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in the pandemic many people recognize the importance of frontline care workers.

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So they they think they should help they should get much wages in these days, and also the same people and the care workers sometimes interact to push up the wages in these days. So I I think there will be a social movement of care walkers in the near future.

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Okay.

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Isabelle Ruelland: looking forward to hear from that. Thank you, Cantavo. I don't know, Tina. If there's other question in the room, or if a Michael professor may yam Melody have some question, or Louisa to Jac. Who can taboo to Jeff, or you can also ask question to your your peer. we have 3 min left. If we want to take all the space that we had.

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Okay.

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Isabelle Ruelland: messy back to Buku. Louisa. Thank you very much. So cantavo. Last word last question for you. I'm sorry, but I can fully understand your question. So which could you please text our email after that afterward.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Okay.

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Tina, thank you very much. Isabel and Michael Marion melody for attending online. And I think we've had a fantastic session. Thanks.

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Isabelle Ruelland: Thank you very much, Tina, for you to be there to make all the that really more human. Even if we're at the distance. And Opa, we can get to see each other in presence in the next Congress for Nice to we see you, Louisa and Aki, to that. There were some participants. Melodie. Michael. Thank you for being there all the time. Okay.

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Professor Mariam Seedat-Khan CCS: thank you. Thanks for a great thank you. Bye, bye.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Hi, Jacques.

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Isabelle Ruelland: we.

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Rhéaume, Jacques: Oh, okay, okay.

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thank you very much for your all right. Sorry I have to. I have to close the the meeting. All right. Thank you, everybody. Bye, bye.