WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:01.940
all right, then. Good good morning. Everybody.

2
00:00:02.420 --> 00:00:06.750
Welcome to this. panel on

3
00:00:07.410 --> 00:00:18.950
COVID-19 patterns in domestic military operations for many. Maybe it sounds like a bad dream in the past that we're still talking about Kovat.

4
00:00:19.180 --> 00:00:46.369
 today we have a full session, and on request of the panel organizers, I would like to. So my name is Case conning from uttered university, I will sort of moderate the session. Lindy and Christian asked me to propose the following modification also because of the logic they, as organizers, had in mind for this session to give Lindy briefly the first word.

5
00:00:46.370 --> 00:00:55.350
and Christian the last, because it's also about a project that they are organizing, and that would mean that we would then, after Lindy, have Tyler.

6
00:00:59.050 --> 00:01:07.669
Tyler, Winsl Tyler. Are you in the room. Yes, oh, sorry we met, but I am. But after that, Maria.

7
00:01:08.050 --> 00:01:14.620
Then Mario is not here. Hey, you you sort of verify that. Yeah. Well.

8
00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:23.960
he's welcome as soon as he comes in. We'll sort of soph him in. Then we have Richard, which I assume is not here, Richard

9
00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:29.230
Taylor, I think if I'm not wrong

10
00:01:30.210 --> 00:01:39.330
then. shel so. Veronica, the co-author or cope presenter could could not be here. And then finally, Christian Lloyd Wrist

11
00:01:39.490 --> 00:01:50.019
and we. The program stays 10 min for each paper, but we can maybe give a little bit more time, although we're also starting 10 min later. But

12
00:01:50.050 --> 00:01:54.279
that may eat into the break. So

13
00:01:54.490 --> 00:01:56.920
let's go about it like that.

14
00:01:56.930 --> 00:02:02.029
Let me first let's see why there's no screen.

15
00:02:07.100 --> 00:02:10.059
Anybody of you needs the the Powerpoint.

16
00:02:10.410 --> 00:02:14.099
I think we all need it. But it's really

17
00:02:14.820 --> 00:02:17.590
the projector is not working.

18
00:02:21.510 --> 00:02:26.540
Okay, are you calling somebody to do that? All right? Yeah, great. So

19
00:02:26.710 --> 00:02:33.879
I'll proceed them to read the acknowledgment of country that we all know by now, but we have to read it

20
00:02:33.940 --> 00:03:03.249
on behalf of everyone gathered. I pay respect which pay respect to the spirit of country. Here in Nam, where we are meeting, acknowledged the past and present Koola nation warungeri voirun as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the norm, aboriginal law, customs and custodianship, responsibilities for country and the people that country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

21
00:03:03.330 --> 00:03:07.790
we recognize the important contribution that first nation thinkers have made.

22
00:03:09.020 --> 00:03:10.309
you know. Yeah.

23
00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:33.429
to sociology, including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nations delegates in the room today and online for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline. And with that I also want to welcome those of you already online to this session, and you can in the question part also write your question in the chat, and then we'll bring them into the discussion. So

24
00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:38.499
the first speaker, then I welcome Lindi Heineken to the

25
00:03:38.600 --> 00:03:41.149
but without Powerpoint

26
00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:49.779
we can work, so we'll probably have to wait until this is solved. So we adjourn until this has been

27
00:03:50.200 --> 00:03:51.920
fixed.

28
00:03:53.090 --> 00:03:57.029
Is there anybody who has a presentation without a

29
00:03:57.090 --> 00:04:00.599
Powerpoint or without the visuals?

30
00:04:03.030 --> 00:04:05.400
These tax introduces.

31
00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:14.929
Yes, and then ask Tyler, because everybody else has a Powerpoint, and so will help us until this has been so, if that's a good proposal.

32
00:04:25.320 --> 00:04:40.919
good good morning. Everyone, and I realize getting up early in Australia is difficult. It's dark, and most of us are still suffering from jet lag. But just a few words on on the on the book project. a couple of years ago, or what was it?

33
00:04:41.270 --> 00:04:44.919
20 20, I think?

34
00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:49.370
When the At pandemic broke out.

35
00:04:49.590 --> 00:04:55.030
we realized that over 95% of countries were using their armed forces

36
00:04:55.320 --> 00:05:03.729
in some other role in response to the pandemic. And for this reason we thought it was an opportune moment in time

37
00:05:03.760 --> 00:05:11.490
to just look at at how armed forces are reacting to this, and what roles are there, and what comparisons are they?

38
00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:16.240
And Christian and I teamed up and we drew up a

39
00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:17.210
okay.

40
00:05:17.450 --> 00:05:21.160
We drew up a comparative

41
00:05:21.740 --> 00:05:46.450
framework in terms of how to actually look at this, and the first thing that came That we we looked at was the The extent to which armed forces were already being used in domestic operations, so was there something new, in other words, for the first time, that countries were deploying the armed forces within in the society. So we looked at. you know

42
00:05:46.510 --> 00:06:08.110
the into. We looked at the legislative framework, in other words, what legal frameworks actually exists for them to normally use, and then also what additional legislation was then passed. We looked at how the the extent of civilian oversight, in other words, when a military is deployed amongst the population or any deployment.

43
00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:23.179
How is authority then, granted for this? And then we had a look at what roles they had been fulfilling? Has there been an actual increase, because that's what we saw that increasing the armed forces, in fact, had been used in in domestic roles.

44
00:06:23.230 --> 00:06:44.259
What we then asked authors to do is to be more specific, and then to outline what roles their specific armed forces were deployed in, and some very interesting trends. He emerged here, where many of the Northern nations were particularly cautious to use the armed forces in kind of law enforcement roles.

45
00:06:44.650 --> 00:06:46.920
More southern countries

46
00:06:46.940 --> 00:07:01.090
also, with all more authoritarian regimes, were more likely to use their their armed forces in curse of roles, law, and for but public order, type of roles, and the tensions that evoked in terms of human rights violations.

47
00:07:01.260 --> 00:07:06.499
So if there was a violations or overreach

48
00:07:06.550 --> 00:07:36.009
in terms of the roles of the armed forces, was there in any kind of accountability measures. So was there. a active parliamentary committees that questioned this was their military ombudsman, a public inspector, those type of things. And then we also ended up by looking at public opinion, and also in between this, what I've missed out is, we also had a section which looked at military culture. So in a nutshell. Then that was

49
00:07:36.010 --> 00:07:43.269
what's the book profile? And we have got Christian. Now we've got 27

50
00:07:43.430 --> 00:07:44.540
countries.

51
00:07:44.690 --> 00:07:57.780
the Netherlands coming on board 27 countries, and we did want to speak to our Philippines at the very late stage. The book is almost ready to go to the public edge, because it would be lovely to have another chapter from Asia.

52
00:07:57.910 --> 00:08:02.739
so if we can't see that, then I guess I will

53
00:08:03.580 --> 00:08:04.969
leave this stage.

54
00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:15.510
Thank you, Lindi. So now I invite Tyler Weinsel. I'm from Canada, from the

55
00:08:15.950 --> 00:08:26.040
 Canadian Forces College and the University of Toronto, built to scale the Canadian Armed forces. Response to the golf at 19. Pandemic.

56
00:08:35.390 --> 00:08:45.829
Hello, everyone. So first, as a matter of introduction, I should highlight that I have no connection to the study of sociology whatsoever.

57
00:08:45.930 --> 00:08:50.120
I am not a sociologist, I am a lawyer, and I'm a historian.

58
00:08:50.650 --> 00:09:14.690
So this conference has been my crash course in what sociology is, and I thank everyone for being so welcoming and asking my answering my dumb questions. also I would invite in the Q. And A. Any feedback, because I would. I would be interested to know if how these different perspectives, law and sociology, how they map onto each other neatly, and and maybe how they don't. And what could be done about that. And so I can learn from

59
00:09:14.710 --> 00:09:18.879
those kinds of that interdisciplinary exchange.

60
00:09:19.060 --> 00:09:32.409
But, as I said, my background is in law, specifically legal history. So that's going to be the focus of my framing of the problem faced in Canada's experience during the COVID-19 pandemic.

61
00:09:32.890 --> 00:09:40.290
So there's a few key elements to understand about Canada and its relationship with its military.

62
00:09:40.430 --> 00:09:45.590
such that its operations during Kovat 19 pandemic, makes sense.

63
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:55.820
First of all, Canada is a Federal State and our division of powers seriously complicates response in times of emergency.

64
00:09:55.990 --> 00:10:17.510
Our division of powers as determined by Section 91. In Section 92 of the British North America Act gives the Federal Government the power to legislate over militia and defense quarantine and the establishment of marine hospitals, criminal law, and, in the language of the day, Indians and land reserved for the Indians.

65
00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:29.370
also the newer things that were not forecasted by the drafters, such as aviation, have been determined by courts to be part of the federal jurisdiction.

66
00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:50.820
Provincial governments. On the other hand, their focus is on matters of a merely local or private nature, local matters, the administration of justice and the establishment, maintenance, and management of hospitals. So recall. The Federal Government has quarantine, but the provincial governments have hospitals.

67
00:10:50.890 --> 00:10:56.420
You can see that there's already some issues for something like a pandemic emerging already.

68
00:10:57.550 --> 00:11:04.629
The second point to bear in mind is that Canada does not deviate from this division of powers lightly.

69
00:11:04.670 --> 00:11:09.899
whereas some States have issues of one level of government overreaching

70
00:11:10.430 --> 00:11:26.979
Canada historically. And I've been following this pattern as far back as the 1870. S. Rather has a problem with one level of government trying to cede the terrain to the other level of a government such that they'll fill the space and expend their money.

71
00:11:27.160 --> 00:11:44.960
So the Federal Government has jurisdiction over peace, order, and good government, which I've done. The historical research on this was framed as a fairly broad and expansive power at the time a strong Federal Government that would take care of peace.

72
00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:47.470
The public piece.

73
00:11:48.060 --> 00:12:14.179
however, the Federal Government, in fact, declined to engage with the policing elements of that, and a Federal police force did not exist in Canada until the 1920 S. And in order matters of public order, violence, the Canadian Government, in fact, let major events play out without intervention, deliberately such that the provinces were forced to fill that space.

74
00:12:14.300 --> 00:12:41.260
The first major example of that was the 1,876, 1,877 Grand Trunk Railway Strike, where the Federal Government knowingly and willingly let the provinces of Quebec and Ontario be paralyzed for a period of 9 days, such that the provincial governments would fill that space, they deliberately declined to use the Dominion Police, which, in fact, was only a few dozen members at the time.

75
00:12:41.260 --> 00:12:50.870
such that the provinces would fill that space. This trend has recurred throughout Canadian history. A notable example is during the Cold War.

76
00:12:51.110 --> 00:13:05.860
when at times, when nuclear war was threatened, the provincial and Federal governments actually had debates about whether recovery from nuclear war was a matter of federal or provincial jurisdiction.

77
00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:15.459
The provinces said that the Federal Government should pay for recovery operations because it was a matter of National defense.

78
00:13:15.670 --> 00:13:18.319
Section 91 of the British North America Act.

79
00:13:18.580 --> 00:13:26.389
The Federal Government said that the provinces should pay for it, because it would, in fact, be a matter of merely local concern.

80
00:13:27.020 --> 00:13:46.750
It's how your city bounces back from nuclear war. That's your problem. If Toronto is nuked, that is the province of Ontario's problem. And this debate actually lasted nearly a full decade until the Federal Government blinked and developed emergency management plans. But at that point the provinces had to.

81
00:13:46.780 --> 00:13:56.899
So we don't have a case of one level of government overreaching. We have levels of government who are trying to maintain a buffer in between, which is.

82
00:13:56.970 --> 00:14:03.799
I don't want to say it's entirely unique. That's one of the nice things of these kind of comparative projects, but intuitively

83
00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:06.000
it's and it seems unusual

84
00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:24.280
other ways that the our governments do deviate from the standard divisions of power is the prerogative, and when a Federal emergency is declared under what was the War Measures Act, and is now the Emergencies Act

85
00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:32.559
that permits the Federal Government to overreach, to reach into matters of provincial jurisdiction.

86
00:14:33.450 --> 00:14:37.690
We did not declare COVID-19 to be a Federal emergency.

87
00:14:38.490 --> 00:14:55.290
That emergency was not declared. There was one use of the Emergencies Act during the COVID-19 pandemic, and that was the February 2022, invocation of the Emergencies Act, which had to do with a matter of public order, not the pandemic itself.

88
00:14:55.320 --> 00:15:11.319
This was the phenomena of the trucker convoys which affected lots of other places, but in Canada it shut down parts of the border, threatening economic security, threatening our engagement with our trade engagement with the United States, and temporarily paralyzing the national capital region

89
00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:20.079
that led to the first use of Canada's Emergencies act the very first use of that statute. But the pandemic

90
00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:25.160
that was not considered that did not trip that threshold, permitting

91
00:15:25.210 --> 00:15:31.569
facilitating the Federal Government to reach into the provinces matter of local concern

92
00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:40.519
most of the disaster response that you might see on the news like right now with the wildfires. Those are done upon the request

93
00:15:40.530 --> 00:15:52.610
of the provincial governments. There is a request for assistance from the provinces, and that permits the Federal Government to do these kinds of operations, but that's usually only done frankly, begrudgingly.

94
00:15:54.180 --> 00:16:17.459
a lot of the let's call them Draconian measures of emergency response. Consequently we're not products of the Federal Government's action. They were conducted by the provinces and the municipalities. The Federal Government's intervention was very limited to regulations under the Aeronautics Act and the quarantine act, things to do with the border

95
00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:19.080
and airplanes

96
00:16:19.310 --> 00:16:28.570
and the Federal Government's own public service. All of these other elements were, in fact, reflections of the provinces and the municipalities use.

97
00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:34.490
Okay, so that's necessary background. I know it's a lot. But it's kind of necessary to understand what comes next.

98
00:16:34.660 --> 00:16:52.119
As a result of all these factors and organizational cultures, the Canadian Armed Forces is considered to be a force of last resort in emergency management and disaster. Response. Domestic response is a standing task. It is a standing line of operations for the Canadian Armed forces.

99
00:16:52.120 --> 00:17:06.800
However, our organization is principally structured for expeditionary operations, and this is very clearly reflected in how our command structures and force generation and force employment structures are.

100
00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:21.539
Briefly, Canada had a Canada command structure, a dedicated headquarters for domestic military operations. It was a brief experiment. It died a quick and sudden death.

101
00:17:22.250 --> 00:17:25.689
Otherwise we have the Canadian Joint operations command

102
00:17:25.770 --> 00:17:35.939
the Canadian Joint Operations Command is responsible for all expeditionary operations and all domestic operations simultaneously.

103
00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:37.849
both line of operations

104
00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:55.860
at the regional level. This double hatting continues, for instance, where I live in Toronto, Ontario. The province of Ontario is simultaneously commanded by the 4 division headquarters. The army's headquarters for the region and joint task force. Central

105
00:17:56.660 --> 00:18:05.169
one of those commands is responsible for forced generation for training, for preparing, and the other ones responsible for force, employment

106
00:18:05.580 --> 00:18:09.790
for any domestic operations. But it's the same headquarters.

107
00:18:10.060 --> 00:18:15.790
It's the same commander. It's the same chief of Staff. It's the same operation staff.

108
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.449
They're the same people. They are double-handed.

109
00:18:19.860 --> 00:18:22.979
So they've got their call it their full time job

110
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:32.319
that continues, even when domestic operations are occurring at the pace they were occurring during the COVID-19 pandemic.

111
00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:35.210
So my question is

112
00:18:35.320 --> 00:18:44.079
following the lessons of the COVID-19. Pandemic and knowing about the continued challenges of climate change, is such a structure built to scale?

113
00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:47.340
Is it able to do these things simultaneously.

114
00:18:48.150 --> 00:18:55.590
I don't think it is so. Let's talk about what we actually did what the Canadian Armed Forces did during the pandemic

115
00:18:56.630 --> 00:18:58.079
a great deal.

116
00:18:58.090 --> 00:19:03.039
24,000 soldiers were placed on active duty preemptively.

117
00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:26.599
This is extremely unusual. Usually our reservists are part time soldiers, and they're only called up in the event of emergency. We put 24,000 people on active duty and said, Stand by, there's something's coming. We don't know what that is. And in fact, those things did occur that ranged from everything, from sending soldiers into long-term care facilities

118
00:19:26.740 --> 00:19:31.490
for the Rangers. The Canadian Ranger Patrol groups in the Canadian North.

119
00:19:31.530 --> 00:19:55.019
They were put on full time active duty for much of the first year and a half of the pandemic, and we're doing everything from wellness checks, delivering firewood and making sure just the general infrastructure of these remote, remote Northern communities was being cared for. That was being done by small contingents of local but full time employed military personnel

120
00:19:55.660 --> 00:19:59.089
contact tracing was done by a number of military personnel.

121
00:19:59.860 --> 00:20:15.330
we seconded officers to the Public Health Administration of Canada, so these were uniformed military officers involved in the planning of vaccine distribution and then in the execution of vaccine distribution. This was called operation, vector

122
00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:36.030
and that ranged from Northern communities where you can only fly in. So the use of military aircraft certainly makes sense, but it also occurred in the southern provinces. So there were vaccine clinics being run by military personnel in the province of Nova Scotia, for instance, because their health care system was so tapped out

123
00:20:36.810 --> 00:20:50.979
and border screening, and I touched on briefly. I don't want to get into it too much in the interest of time. But there was, briefly, during the public order, emergency of the trucker convoy of fear, a concern, a need to prepare for

124
00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:59.779
a call for military assistance in that policing operation which, in my opinion, thankfully did not come.

125
00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:02.969
However, those preparations had to be made

126
00:21:03.460 --> 00:21:14.720
now to be blunt. We got lucky, because during the first 2 years of the COVID-19 pandemic we did not have significant demands.

127
00:21:14.770 --> 00:21:21.649
other disaster, assistance, response requirements. It was not a bad few years for wildfires.

128
00:21:21.780 --> 00:21:28.470
It was not a bad few years for floods. We got lucky this year.

129
00:21:28.570 --> 00:21:33.479
for instance, there's no rule that pandemics can't coincide with bad wildfire year.

130
00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:42.660
This year we have military personnel assisting with the fighting of bushfires in at least 3 provinces with more to come.

131
00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:47.049
Now, what if there had been overlap of these 2 events?

132
00:21:47.140 --> 00:21:50.440
There's no reason to think that something like that and couldn't occur.

133
00:21:50.950 --> 00:22:10.130
So my question again is, are we built to scale? Is the having all levels of command simultaneously tasked with force, generation, and domestic military operations sufficient for what scientists can reasonably project will be the demands of climate change-induced disasters.

134
00:22:10.290 --> 00:22:11.839
I think the answer is no.

135
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:21.000
In the late 1940 S. The Royal Canadian Air Force saw the opportunity of aerial search and rescue in the Canadian North.

136
00:22:21.090 --> 00:22:26.869
and sees that opportunity to create purpose-built units for aerial search and rescue.

137
00:22:27.120 --> 00:22:42.250
They took the opportunity to build units specifically for that task, and that gave them opportunities to create efficient training structures such that they could train more pilots and maintain more aircraft so that they could fulfill their other operations.

138
00:22:42.730 --> 00:22:46.999
Could the Canadian army do something like that, maybe, and we might have to.

139
00:22:47.140 --> 00:22:52.929
I would also propose that this might overlap with the other problem we're having, which is recruiting.

140
00:22:53.440 --> 00:23:12.499
We can't recruit enough for all these kinds of operations. So is there opportunity in that space such that a Canadian off the street, who doesn't want to be trained as a war fighter for expeditionary operations, but perhaps would like to do something more in line with Peace Corps type duties could enter a different career path

141
00:23:12.610 --> 00:23:21.959
such that they could fulfill that line of operations, thus freeing up the Canadian Armed forces for fighters for those other expeditionary operations.

142
00:23:22.020 --> 00:23:27.530
I think the time is now for looking at those kinds of challenges and corresponding opportunities.

143
00:23:27.580 --> 00:23:28.610
Thank you very much.

144
00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:40.440
You Tyler crystal clear. We seem to have again a not functioning projector.

145
00:23:40.610 --> 00:23:47.300
So maybe we could use the waiting time because everybody else needs it. Maybe you can

146
00:23:47.380 --> 00:23:52.520
use this to ask one or 2 questions for Tyler. Enter into a conversation. Would that be okay?

147
00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:57.000
So please feel free to address higher

148
00:24:03.020 --> 00:24:05.050
ruin my them to

149
00:24:06.520 --> 00:24:07.280
so

150
00:24:13.630 --> 00:24:15.839
I have one. How

151
00:24:16.470 --> 00:24:26.830
has this this final idea been received in Canadian society, or within the structures of the Armed Forces or the Ministry of Defense, and to have these more diverse career parts.

152
00:24:29.140 --> 00:24:45.269
I think I'm starting the conversation, but it's hardly in full swing. Frankly, it would be a very big change. The Canadian Armed Forces has recently adopted a number of things which some people perceive to be very radical, others perceive it not to be so radical.

153
00:24:45.300 --> 00:25:02.289
certainly many European militaries have done it, and that's changing standards with regards to hair and makeup and fingernails and face tattoos and those kinds of things, and that's being presented as this big shift that will definitely get the youth more interested in joining the modern Canadian armed forces.

154
00:25:02.350 --> 00:25:13.130
I have my doubts that it will change a great deal, but I do think that there are a great number of Canadian youth

155
00:25:13.230 --> 00:25:17.779
who would like to serve, but just not necessarily

156
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:20.260
in an armed capacity.

157
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:35.600
And we see that in different levels all the time, right? When we see young people being very engaged with volunteer ground search and rescue and firefighting and all those kinds of it. It's never hard to get young people to come out and volunteer for those tasks.

158
00:25:35.830 --> 00:25:56.149
So is it that hard to imagine that a Nova Scotian wouldn't mind getting on a plane to British Columbia to perform that task if that plane was ready, willing, and available, and they had received some training. I don't think that's much of a stretch, but it's perceived as taking the Canadian Armed forces away from its central task

159
00:25:56.280 --> 00:25:58.319
of expeditionary operations.

160
00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:09.889
That's presently the organizational culture. My counter argument would be, that's fine. All the better to have a different part of the organization handling it so we can have that specialization of labor.

161
00:26:24.870 --> 00:26:27.599
the suggestion to our.

162
00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:31.459
you know

163
00:26:35.810 --> 00:26:40.170
the we asked her for a he.

164
00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:42.360
The

165
00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:48.019
it's a little language.

166
00:26:52.870 --> 00:26:54.860
Yes. okay.

167
00:26:55.550 --> 00:27:00.570
How much time would have been a very short period of time, at least by people was concerned

168
00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:04.070
5 min. Your name fix it.

169
00:27:08.260 --> 00:27:11.160
That's one idea as well. These other rooms that are

170
00:27:11.310 --> 00:27:12.840
on the

171
00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:15.970
sorry.

172
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:19.780
But I mean they made it this session way over a little bit.

173
00:27:19.840 --> 00:27:28.800
You just need to restart the projector with 10 min, I guess. Yeah, we can do that sometimes one on you. This is going for the moment. So yeah.

174
00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:31.960
yeah, you want to try and rejoin these.

175
00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:59.839
Okay, then, Maria, let's use this window of opportunity that the the technical deities give us very welcome to to you. So I have to finish within 10 min, because this will shut down. But you can talk even without your images?

176
00:28:03.410 --> 00:28:21.900
The yes, the the questions online for Tyra will go to the, to the discussion at the end. So Maria Sabrina, Erica, Carlos, with a call presenter is not here. You are from the Ateneo, the Manila University. You have your 15 min. Okay. good

177
00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:36.740
morning, everyone. So I'm Sabrina Carlos from the Philippines, and this work was actually born out of my undergraduate thesis. So I'm very excited to share this with you, and I hope you get some insights from it.

178
00:28:36.850 --> 00:28:38.350
So

179
00:28:40.390 --> 00:29:03.530
this paper is interested in the role of the military, in humanitarian action. So in the Philippines, actually, they are involved in a lot of logistical roles. This is embedded in their core functions as a military. So they're involved in search and rescue operations, relief goods, distribution, that help speed up the response and prevented some duplication of efforts.

180
00:29:03.560 --> 00:29:16.930
and this part, their involvement in initiatives like this plays into their commitment to nation building, and it satisfies their responsibility for both internal and external security.

181
00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:36.099
earning them the title of a do with all military. So in the Philippines they still have responsibility for both internal and external security. however, the COVID-19 pandemic put a lot of pressure on their relationship with wider civil society. given the unprecedented nature of the pandemic, and also the

182
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:47.939
already strained Philippine civil military relations brought about by the previous administrations. And so the highly militarized and securitized COVID-19 response

183
00:29:47.940 --> 00:30:10.829
brought up a lot of concerns regarding their role in society and the future of civil space in the country. So given. This, this study is concerned with how civil society actors in particular navigate and perceive this relationship, and how it has been redefined during the pandemic. We'll take a look at the roles of the military during the pandemic, how this has impact

184
00:30:10.830 --> 00:30:33.880
civil military relations and their traditional roles in internal security and humanitarian action, and the overall role of political leadership in all of this. So we did interviews with both military and civil society stakeholders, and out of the service branches of the military. We focused on the Philippine navy.

185
00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:49.009
and they also have their own land, sea, and air assets, and we engaged with active military and listed personnel. Even reservists who particularly have experience engaging in civil military operations

186
00:30:49.010 --> 00:31:04.789
and on the part of civil society. We have community members from Berang guys. So Berang guys are the smallest political unit in the Philippines, and we also have Ngos and development workers who have worked with the military in a humanitarian action capacity.

187
00:31:04.830 --> 00:31:32.289
And I just wanted to highlight. We also interviewed the Philippine, the affiliated reserve units. So these are reserve units. These are organizations or corporations that have signed up their whole organization as reservists, and their resources can be used in cases of public services that have been disrupted by a disaster. So those are our main participants in this study.

188
00:31:32.430 --> 00:31:52.920
and the locus of this study is in Cavita. So if you this part right here, it's just south of Manila and the 2 baron guys that we interviewed. One is located inside the military base, and then one is outside of the military base, but still has a lot of engagement with our personnel. And

189
00:31:53.970 --> 00:32:09.950
yeah, and the so specific unit that we engage with with the military base. Here is the Philippine fleet. So they are involved in the training deployment of Philippine Navy ships, aircraft and personnel. So that's based there in Kavita.

190
00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:20.269
So when the COVID-19 pandemic hit an interagency task force for emerging infectious diseases was created.

191
00:32:20.370 --> 00:32:36.579
and the military was put into the law and order cluster together with other security agencies. So one of their main roles were to alongside. The police were to enforce quarantine control points, curfew rules, and social distancing rules.

192
00:32:36.580 --> 00:32:51.790
They also provided security to vaccine places, hospitals, isolation facilities, and their reservists and medical personnel also provided medical assistance, so they also

193
00:32:51.920 --> 00:33:04.050
provided vaccines and distributed medical equipment to different parts of the country, and of course they are also involved in the repacking and delivery of relief goods.

194
00:33:04.290 --> 00:33:27.590
So these engagements with civil society it showed some challenges and also gains in Philippine civil military relations which will be discussed now. So the the first challenge that we observe is the military's ability to dismiss criticisms regarding their involvement in the pandemic response. So

195
00:33:27.590 --> 00:33:42.639
these criticisms revolve around the composition of the interagency task force, which included former top ranking military and police officers. The overall war framing of the pandemic and the prolonged lockdowns and

196
00:33:42.650 --> 00:34:03.350
calls for a more equitable response, was met with further intimidation and red tagging towards civil society organizations. because they pointed out that. this is a public health crisis. So you might want to have public health officials heading this task force. But instead, you have top-ranking former top ranking military and police officers.

197
00:34:03.350 --> 00:34:24.899
When we did the interviews we asked him about this, and they just counter with, well, it's part of our mandate to be involved in humanitarian action response. And this is the roles that were given to us. So that that's why they're considered to be a do with all military. They do a lot of rules and have a lot of responsibilities in Philippine society.

198
00:34:24.910 --> 00:34:46.749
But this reliance on State forces is not just a product of the pandemic, but rather something that has been that has already characterized the previous authority administration that now, aside from being known as a do with all military. We also observed that this has also fostered a notion that they are a can do no wrong military.

199
00:34:46.750 --> 00:35:06.530
so whatever they're doing, it's justified. It's legitimized by the political leadership that has been in place, and because of their legal mandates as well. But with this notion, with these roles is that the on the part of civil society they are put at a disadvantage.

200
00:35:06.540 --> 00:35:08.940
because with this attitude

201
00:35:09.160 --> 00:35:27.780
one of the one of the Ngos that we talked to. They're more upfront about calling out the militaries for their wrongs, because during the pandemic there were also incidents. We passed the anti-, the new anti-terrorism law, which is a lot of shades of vague

202
00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:52.069
and really disadvantages to civil society. So They're more open to calling out the military, but in terms of doing disaster response during the pandemic they recognize that they can't completely shun them out because it would paralyze their humanitarian response. And a lot. Along with other countries, the military, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, was

203
00:35:52.070 --> 00:36:16.589
the only people that were allowed to go out and go to communities. So they had to channel their donations, their relief goods to the military for this purpose. So aside from it's so because of this. The challenge is, it's hard to hold them accountable for the things that they were doing. And there were a lot of human rights issues and attacks against activists at this time as well.

204
00:36:16.590 --> 00:36:24.199
So this indicates really just a stronger relationship between the military and the political leadership

205
00:36:24.200 --> 00:36:46.719
that is enabling them legitimizing their role in society which leads to more compromises on the part of civil society. So those are the 2 main challenges that we observed. However, when we look at relations on the ground, like in direct relations between these organizations and stakeholders. There are some games which

206
00:36:46.720 --> 00:37:03.140
kind of represent push backs against this overall military expansion of influence and rule. And a key facilitator of these relationships was their close physical proximity, their direct communication and established working relationships prior to the pandemic.

207
00:37:03.140 --> 00:37:24.689
So we've seen this in again, the barangay, the smallest political unit they were able to assert, their own policies being that they are the local government representative in that area. So the military of particularly talking about the Berangai in the military base. So while the military has their

208
00:37:24.690 --> 00:37:44.939
jurisdiction over the base, they can set the rules, but they have that local government there, and they have a different set of rules that they have to implement. So there were some tensions at the beginning regarding this, but the barangay was able to assert that no, this is what we should follow in the military eventually

209
00:37:45.120 --> 00:38:10.529
follow, that so in another instance, when we look at when we do, when we, they do these disaster response initiatives when they go to communities. So civil society organizations hand over their donations, their relief goods to civil society, to the military. One thing that we have serviced, that the military does not take credit for this, so when you see their posts and social media, they highlight their partnerships. There's not really a lot of

210
00:38:10.530 --> 00:38:17.600
stickers or labels that these are coming from the military, but rather coming from civil society organizations.

211
00:38:17.600 --> 00:38:35.879
But it is the military that is going to communities and distributing them. So yeah, given these developments, there are certain recalibrations to civil military relations, so we've lost their presentation. But it's our right. So I just have 3 points here.

212
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:52.980
first is that relations are more direct. These are breaching traditional institutional barriers, and these help expand their social networks. within Barangaiis, within civil society organizations. And there is a the second point is.

213
00:38:52.980 --> 00:39:08.709
there is also a greater appreciation for civil military operations on the part of the military, because some of the people that we interviewed. They said that several military operations were under appreciated. It's not really being focused on as a

214
00:39:08.780 --> 00:39:29.109
as a strategy. So when the pandemic happened, they saw that people were responding positively to their presence in certain areas because of the the nations that they were bringing because of the security that they were doing in that area. So not only on the part of the military, but also on civil society.

215
00:39:29.110 --> 00:39:54.630
that has been on the receiving side of these donations, so they appreciate the presence of the military in those areas, and one of the participants also mentioned that they get frustrated with those who are criticizing the military, because, hey, they're doing a good job. They're providing us with the food that we need. They're helping us be safe during the pandemic. So there's that However, as I mentioned earlier.

216
00:39:54.630 --> 00:40:00.559
this roles are, aside from being known as a do with all military, they are now

217
00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:28.110
being known as a can do no wrong military, and there is little to no accountability so as much as civil society organizations. try to call out the military whenever there are operations and human rights abuses. There is not really a lot of investigations that come up after this, so it just stays within the consciousness of those on social media of the people that are working with these communities on the ground

218
00:40:28.220 --> 00:40:33.950
which leads to more compromises on the part of civil society.

219
00:40:34.020 --> 00:40:55.179
overall. This work has really aimed to discuss how Philippine civil military relations has been re-crafted. We defined during the pandemic what this dynamic is like, and we've seen there is a more greater engagement between civil civil society and military organizations. But there are a certain

220
00:40:55.180 --> 00:41:12.679
challenges that come with it that leads to civil society, compromising a bit more of their values just to be able to achieve their particular goal in humanitarian action. response. So while the gains that we discussed show pushbacks against this, against this

221
00:41:12.730 --> 00:41:29.819
these are just at the micro level. So on the ground relationships. But when you take a look at the macro levels, there is still a higher engagement between the military and political elites that help shield them from accountability, and enable enables their roles.

222
00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:42.829
and still justifies their expanded roles in both internal and external security. So what I hope to offer with this paper is that we'll take a look at civil military relations, not just

223
00:41:42.920 --> 00:42:02.810
in terms of the national government and the political elites and the military, but also the role of civil society organisations. Those who do the groundwork when they're dealing with communities, especially those who are in conflict areas, and focus more on these these relationships on the ground, because

224
00:42:02.810 --> 00:42:22.609
these are important relationships, especially when we're talking about preserving the civil space in Philippine society. So we don't want there to be a fall back to authoritarianism or a lot more securitization of the Philippine state.

225
00:42:22.640 --> 00:42:28.580
So that's what we wanted to highlight in this paper. And

226
00:42:28.610 --> 00:42:32.720
yeah, thank you so much for listening. And I hope you got something from this.

227
00:42:38.210 --> 00:42:44.950
Thank you, Maria. You didn't need timekeeping at all. It was absolutely fascinating and very well done.

228
00:42:45.130 --> 00:42:56.000
In the meantime Gabriel came up with a temporary solution. How is it in terms of seeing this? If you're very in the back of

229
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:57.690
yeah.

230
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:19.939
yes, that's also a good option. So yeah, and actually doing quite well time-wise. So we still have an hour officially, even after we have been starting 10 in this way. But nevertheless, I think now I can go sell. So to talk to us about Brazil

231
00:43:27.200 --> 00:43:31.110
next presentation. That's not this one.

232
00:43:34.870 --> 00:43:37.590
Yeah. Some pictures.

233
00:46:02.160 --> 00:46:04.430
the result they develop.

234
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:30.609
They developed on the amid the forces, and in word orientation, in the self-representation of being an essential institution for social cohesion, and in borrowing the nationalistic ideals which you render them professional schools to perform performed domestic rules. No establishing a basis for military intervention. Domestic politics in Brazil

235
00:46:30.970 --> 00:46:45.240
by the Constitution the present memory forces, in addition to traditional defence roles can perform subsidiary attributions toward the national development and civil defense.

236
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:55.730
Besides that, since its creation in 1,999, our Ministry of Defense was created 24 years ago. Only

237
00:46:56.500 --> 00:47:17.929
the Ministry of Defense has never fully consolidated, Consolidated as an agency that civilians oversee in practice. The armed forces maintain significant autonomy and remain the central authority regarding national security and defense-related matters in Brazil.

238
00:47:17.930 --> 00:47:33.570
Besides that recent political circumstances created, caused, and was shifted to the right in Brazil to take place, especially following the election of Jaibo. Sonaris, present at the end of 2,018,

239
00:47:33.730 --> 00:47:50.340
Mo sonar, was a a former army officer, who he tired as captain in 1,988, due to disciplinary problems. But after retiring he was elected city counselor for the real janitor in 1988, and the

240
00:47:50.630 --> 00:48:00.270
from then he was successfully elected a Federal deputy. the Congress until 2,018,

241
00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:08.979
when he won the presidency of race in Brazil, he repeatedly reinforced his links to the army.

242
00:48:08.990 --> 00:48:13.629
he throughout his political trajectory, no pledge in his alliance.

243
00:48:13.650 --> 00:48:16.440
a license it to the institution.

244
00:48:17.060 --> 00:48:21.949
As Bolsonaro took office in January, the twentieth 19,

245
00:48:22.040 --> 00:48:31.090
he he rewarded no, his supporters by Appointing a thousands thousands of military personnel

246
00:48:31.120 --> 00:48:35.380
for official governmental positions, including the Ministry of Defense

247
00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:41.519
and the Ministry of Health in Brazil and the forces increasing presence

248
00:48:41.540 --> 00:48:57.490
in key governmental agencies is strongly impacted. The health strategies formulated to face the COVID-19 pandemic in Brazil, taking on a particular strong, militarized character.

249
00:48:57.940 --> 00:48:59.640
you? Okay.

250
00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:15.459
this militarization, combined with Molsonaro's reluctance and being optimistic here to follow many of the international established guidelines set by the world of health organization and other agencies.

251
00:49:16.100 --> 00:49:26.280
Market damage forces participation in the fight against COVID-19. In Brazil, boson are advocated by an early treatment.

252
00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:36.279
a protocol doctrine consisting of using chlorokine and other uneffective drugs.

253
00:49:36.910 --> 00:49:38.290
Despite the lack

254
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:59.819
of scientific evidence supporting that these medications were effective against the Coronavirus, and on many occasions the Government criticized the preventive measures to tackle the dissemination of the Coronavirus, such as lockdowns, vaccination, and even use of masks

255
00:50:00.010 --> 00:50:00.940
in Brazil.

256
00:50:01.450 --> 00:50:05.710
Finally, Bolsonara decide to postpone. You know the the

257
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:16.819
the purchase of vaccines, as it was the last country to buy vaccines. But more than a and a public health question. The fight against the pandemic in Brazil became a political

258
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:18.110
issue

259
00:50:18.910 --> 00:50:26.900
when the COVID-19 pandemic was formally a knowledge as a nationwide crisis in March the twentieth 20.

260
00:50:26.940 --> 00:50:41.740
The Federal Government set aside a special budget to address it. Bosonaro created the operation, COVID-19, and he requested the armed forces to conduct a series of measures now to fight the Coronavirus.

261
00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:55.549
By April 2,021. One year later the Ministry of Defense accounted for nearly 34,000 34,000 active military members deployed in this operation

262
00:50:55.870 --> 00:51:02.729
on the part of the military. There was no question about the deployment to fight the pandemic. No, the engagement

263
00:51:02.790 --> 00:51:29.310
during the pandemic, in a way, a contributed in in their view to solely define all this humanitarian aspect of the Brazilian military that has been previously portrayed. In initiatives such as the the involvement in the Minusta UN mission of for the stabilization of Haiti and several other place, the the army. The forces of Brazil emerit forces interpreted.

264
00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:34.380
this yeah. The roles in the performance are

265
00:51:34.710 --> 00:51:42.670
in operation COVID-19. As part of the institutions overall Mission no, which

266
00:51:42.680 --> 00:51:51.880
that it speaks directly to its domestic aspect of, and it is inherent to their

267
00:51:51.900 --> 00:52:06.329
a social identity. However, the military character of health politics proved to be enormous, significant. The Government and trusted the army force and its member more than any other civil institutions

268
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:15.850
with the handling, no health politics during the pandemic per the President's request.

269
00:52:16.060 --> 00:52:22.409
And conversely, this significant eroded the institution's public legitimacy.

270
00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:42.159
From June 2,020, on General Pasuelo, who was still an active duty general, was appointed as Ministry of Health. He knew nothing about health in Brazil, and said it in the first interview he gave it

271
00:52:42.750 --> 00:52:46.020
the pandemic aggravated

272
00:52:46.110 --> 00:53:02.580
to see numbers mainly due to the delay of the government, initiating not only to buy vaccines, but always speaking against the use of masks, against no lock downs, against the social distance, and other measures

273
00:53:03.390 --> 00:53:18.720
where they taken worldwide to mitigate? No, the effects of the the deed pandemic due to the charges surrounding the military demonstration of public health politics during the pandemic.

274
00:53:19.240 --> 00:53:21.170
the public image

275
00:53:21.240 --> 00:53:39.429
concerning the technical efficiency and the logistical capacity of the armed forces was very much harmed. In addition to that, Bosonaro's denial of the pandemic's dimension caused a drastic loss of public opinion trust since the beginning of his term.

276
00:53:39.500 --> 00:54:00.909
Charges of heh! Heh! Heh! He's the regular, this sorry regarding the the procedure for vaccine production. It's a demonstration administration of the budget and the the President's refusal to to follow international and scientific health guidelines

277
00:54:00.990 --> 00:54:17.869
only aggravated distressed towards the mismanagement of health politics. The media emphasized that the Presidential recommendations were contrary to international health recommendations. I have a few

278
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:23.570
pictures here just to show how this is.

279
00:54:23.620 --> 00:54:24.950
and the

280
00:54:25.210 --> 00:54:29.150
coordination you can read their self-evident.

281
00:54:29.900 --> 00:54:36.640
You know the critical tone of the media is selected, only a few, a few pictures

282
00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:39.449
to show this. Well. But

283
00:54:39.890 --> 00:54:42.060
let me see, second one

284
00:54:42.140 --> 00:54:44.120
a new matter to count death

285
00:54:51.980 --> 00:54:53.750
the Ministry of Health.

286
00:54:54.320 --> 00:54:55.070
No.

287
00:54:55.500 --> 00:54:57.839
we invited this guy because

288
00:54:58.430 --> 00:55:03.620
everybody in the Ministry of healthy higher positions or military.

289
00:55:04.410 --> 00:55:05.630
without

290
00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:10.520
one knowledge of of of health usually.

291
00:55:13.260 --> 00:55:17.340
and Bosonaro's followers assembling the streets

292
00:55:22.860 --> 00:55:29.720
and the 9. No scientific recommendations, saying, That's just a question of opinion, etc.,

293
00:55:32.160 --> 00:55:35.310
the Ministry of Health as well as the General.

294
00:55:36.150 --> 00:55:38.270
That's self-evident as well.

295
00:55:43.290 --> 00:55:45.050
Well, let me.

296
00:55:46.570 --> 00:55:56.970
and like this one particularly. But to. To conclude a Brazilian operation. COVID-19 represents a case of intense military involvement

297
00:55:57.230 --> 00:56:10.939
in in as active measures and overall governmental policies to fight COVID-19. The strategic placement of military members took by policy making positions that civilians.

298
00:56:11.110 --> 00:56:24.869
Traditional performance has resulted in the conspicuous increasing militarization of health. In the country there is a military engagement in dealing with the pandemics in Brazil.

299
00:56:25.340 --> 00:56:35.450
It took place in a political context that brought damage to the image of armed forces that was measured by Poos, etc.

300
00:56:35.620 --> 00:56:45.169
in a political context. That so I'm sorry in terms of how the armed forces were perceived

301
00:56:45.200 --> 00:56:48.630
as an institution by broad population

302
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:54.660
sectors, and the Brazilian case so illustrates how military participate

303
00:56:54.680 --> 00:56:56.250
participation

304
00:56:56.610 --> 00:57:02.239
in civilian divers can bring a potentially a negative.

305
00:57:02.250 --> 00:57:07.000
No political dimension to the image of the Armed Forces as an institution.

306
00:57:07.250 --> 00:57:13.069
particularly as the subject of health was politicized, due to the pandemics.

307
00:57:13.390 --> 00:57:14.530
That's it. Thank you.

308
00:57:21.650 --> 00:57:24.450
Thank you. So so so finally.

309
00:57:25.180 --> 00:57:33.399
Richard is definitely not with us. I ask, Christian wordpress or

310
00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:39.169
 the powerpoint.

311
00:57:40.600 --> 00:57:45.160
you mean and you you out, so lindy, then you still have something to

312
00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:48.630
yeah, yeah.

313
00:57:49.050 --> 00:57:52.220
and on. okay, so let's

314
00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:53.290
once.

315
00:57:54.020 --> 00:58:00.040
 yes.

316
00:58:00.370 --> 00:58:02.630
yeah. okay.

317
00:58:03.430 --> 00:58:04.580
sorry yeah.

318
00:58:05.390 --> 00:58:12.429
i'm, also a little bit confused about all the back and forth, because the good news is, we have plenty of time.

319
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:30.119
right? So I'll speak to the South African case. And so, after the first person was confirmed positive with COVID-19 in South Africa, on 5 March 2,020, the South African President which you see here. So Ramaposa

320
00:58:30.520 --> 00:58:40.140
declared the COVID-19 pandemic, a national state of disaster and instituted measures to constrain constraint the spread of the virus.

321
00:58:40.450 --> 00:58:58.289
Several government structures were put in place, the most important being the Interministerial Committee on defence, on COVID-19 and and an Emergency Operation Center and a National Coronavirus commands council, of course, of which the military formed part.

322
00:58:59.300 --> 00:59:08.170
So if level, 5, locked on measures were put in place. It required everybody to stay at home. Very strict, social. Why are you doing that?

323
00:59:08.560 --> 00:59:09.270
Hi, John?

324
00:59:11.460 --> 00:59:28.260
 Very strict social distances will put AI to go up. There we go. We need to. So social distances were put in place, and there was even really harsh restrictions on the use of alcohol and cigarettes were banned

325
00:59:28.290 --> 00:59:44.159
So, to stem the spread of the Coronavirus president. So Ramapoda immediately announced the employment of the military. Here you see him here, and he appeared in full military dress on television

326
00:59:44.410 --> 00:59:52.670
military attire, as a commander in chief of the S. And D. If he told the public that the soldiers would serve as a force of kindness

327
00:59:52.980 --> 01:00:00.909
important to note, not as a force of might to save lives, and to defend South Africa against the invisible.

328
01:00:01.600 --> 01:00:17.769
But from the onset the narrative was militarized, a securitized with a health pandemic pertade as a national security threat that required extraordinary springs from government, which necessitated the deployment of the military

329
01:00:18.020 --> 01:00:39.779
and the deployment of the military is permitted in terms of the Constitution, which allows that the military be employed to preserve the life, health, and property in an emergency situation, for example, to provide humanitarian relief relief, and to support any other State Department

330
01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:55.179
in terms of the support of the police. I just think it's important to mention here is that the military also. can can in conduct. Search and seizures can set up roadblocks and checkpoints. Border control traffic control.

331
01:00:55.180 --> 01:01:10.489
May you may have the legitimate use of force, although it's obviously restrained in this and if necessary, to control and disperse gatherings. However, it cannot investigate crimes, and it cannot arrest people.

332
01:01:10.580 --> 01:01:36.590
so and and in terms of the COVID-19 deployment. It was deployed according to those specifications, and according to the Disaster Management Act in terms of the support for the police. we I've made coming. I mentioned that so, and they've got they've got quite. They can support the the police, but they can't act to actual arrest

333
01:01:37.500 --> 01:02:03.489
before the the the military can be deployed. They are subject to civilian oversight. So there are. and this is, according to section 2, one and 2, 2 2, which are very clear that any deployment of the military has to be approved by the legislature, and needs to be discussed in the 2 Parliamentary Portfolio Committees is quite a lot of emphasis on civilian oversight

334
01:02:03.490 --> 01:02:18.190
of the military in South Africa. Given the history of the country, so the 2 Portfolio committees play a very, very important role to raise issues and have matters tabled in their Parliament.

335
01:02:18.360 --> 01:02:41.630
And, what is very important, that that if the military is to be deployed in an internal role, the President and the Minister of Defense must give notice of such employment in the Government Gazette within 24 h, and if Parliament does not sit during the first 7 days of the defense force is employed as envisions and subject, and 2 of the Constitution.

336
01:02:41.630 --> 01:02:51.480
Regulations! The President must provide information required. In terms of how many soldiers, for how long? In what roles and and so forth.

337
01:02:51.480 --> 01:03:14.980
what we have seen over the years is slippage in and civilian oversight specifically during the the Zuma era, but much more close to scrutiny when it comes to this to deployment in domestic operations, because we've got a very active and vigilant civil society, which is, which is really critical of of military. And

338
01:03:14.980 --> 01:03:38.579
so we see in the beginning, that there was a a a decrease in civilian oversight specifically into because the parliamentary committees were not active. But then, as the human rights, violations, and so forth, came to the fore. Then you see that

339
01:03:38.870 --> 01:03:47.140
that the parliamentary committees, once they resume in a virtual platform, has become much more critical.

340
01:03:47.600 --> 01:04:10.400
So in terms of the deployment of the of the military the operation was called operation, not Leila, and and there was primarily, initially it was the infantry that was deployed 33 infantry companies involving approximately 3,000 soldiers.

341
01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:20.109
and their initial task was to enforce lockdown regulations to limit the spread of COVID-19, which is extremely difficult.

342
01:04:20.190 --> 01:04:29.759
specifically given that a large percentage of the of of the citizens live in informal settlements.

343
01:04:29.820 --> 01:04:33.649
So they were involved in vehicle patrols.

344
01:04:33.750 --> 01:04:37.529
this keeps on jumping, but owner chord

345
01:04:37.720 --> 01:05:05.909
 so So it was really mainly the law enforcement role that that that created a great deal of of problems as the the military confiscated alcohol, and used it for their own use and use. Excess of violence, correct of action, where people were violating, making people do push-ups and squats and frog jumps, and as a form of corrective action.

346
01:05:06.430 --> 01:05:34.750
and, what was less visible, Unfortunately, was the extensive health and humanitarian support that the military provided in terms of logistics, sanitation, distribution of water, food, parcels, helping in over 15 of the different hospitals. South Africa is unique, and that has got its own military health service. So quite an extensive military health service, 2 huge big military hospitals

347
01:05:34.750 --> 01:05:39.300
and health clinics is distributed across the country.

348
01:05:39.300 --> 01:05:42.250
That could assist

349
01:05:42.330 --> 01:06:02.040
the other really interesting thing about South Africa. The defence was put. The whole Defence force on stand by including the reserves. It's like we're not going to ask for 5 because of the regulations and civilian oversight. It's every time they wanted to have 500 most. They had to go to Parliament and had to be approved. And they said, Okay, let's put everybody on stand by.

350
01:06:02.040 --> 01:06:13.640
But in effect. so, of course, a whole civil society was up in arms, but in effect only 8,000 personnel were eventually deployed in

351
01:06:13.640 --> 01:06:26.129
in these roles, and I think you sort of give the the nutty durative details. But it was quite extensive to support setting up field hospitals, transport all the general things that took place

352
01:06:26.130 --> 01:06:51.499
there. There was, there was quite a lot of critique sort of in terms of the Melody's slow, military, slow response to it, but we must remember that when this deployment was taking place, the military was really involved in internal operations, extensively on the border in, and crime prevention specifically and combating. It was at that time when this broke out combat in gain violence.

353
01:06:51.690 --> 01:06:52.500
and

354
01:06:52.710 --> 01:07:16.910
and was deployed on peacekeeping operations overboard. And it, the defense force, is in a critical state of decline. So it was really using vehicle equipment and stuff that was 50 years 40 to 50 years old in in some cases, and of course it affected their their readiness in terms of the training, and all recruitment was stopped, and so forth.

355
01:07:19.260 --> 01:07:20.940
If we can go down

356
01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:49.169
in terms of their deployment. When when the military is is deployed there, every deployment should go in accordance with a so so there's a generic code of conduct, and with any specific mission there is, The the Constitution and the Defense regulations require that there is a mission readies code of conduct to regulate the the soldiers, and in this case

357
01:07:49.170 --> 01:08:07.039
there was no code of conduct, no code of conduct was promulgated, so the soldiers were deployed without any mission, readiness training, without any preparation of what they were allowed or not allowed to do, and this, in fact, led to really the abuse of power.

358
01:08:07.040 --> 01:08:21.639
It was then taken to court, and the military was forced to instill a code of conduct which, outlined specifically it was made very public. It was published publicly in terms of what they were allowed and not allowed to do.

359
01:08:22.050 --> 01:08:28.950
So. Here, you can see, sort of an image of is a and of brutality, human rights abuses and

360
01:08:28.970 --> 01:08:41.849
associated with us, and I'll come to the the wasteful expenditures. But here you can see a picture of a soldier making people do push-ups for not obeying the the regulations.

361
01:08:42.170 --> 01:08:58.570
And there was a lot of criticism of the military specifically, and the necessity for a code of conduct, because the the comment was that the organisational culture of the police and army is clearly based on humiliation, aggression.

362
01:08:58.570 --> 01:09:15.739
and abuse, and this needs to be thoroughly shaken up, and even the United Nations Office of Human Rights rates. Similar concerns about the excessive use of force and the heavy-handed and highly militarized approach that the Government had adopted, especially in the early phases of the lockdown.

363
01:09:16.350 --> 01:09:40.170
 so And of course, what didn't make it easier is that the the chief of the army acting to for the army at the time. You know. The Huda said that he'd ordered the army to change his footing from a peacetime to walk down and and created the notion that there's We've got a combat, really forces which is ready for war. So

364
01:09:40.170 --> 01:09:56.169
I think what we must remember here is that the culture, equipment, structure, and processes are informed by the need to destroy and neutralise an adversary not primarily to control the object of the operations.

365
01:09:56.410 --> 01:10:23.340
So as a result of this, we do see that in terms of operation, not Leila. And there was extensive human rights abuses, including shootings, Latin and gun beatings, tear gas, humiliation, abuse of language, water, bombing, evasion of people's privacy. Home Yards. And then what was the tipping point, of course, was the murder of Collins Koza, on the tenth of April, 2020, who died from a blunt trauma.

366
01:10:23.420 --> 01:10:25.030
and this

367
01:10:25.320 --> 01:10:51.089
even though the military has got a more positive image slightly 58% compared to the police. This really did harm the the image of the merger. So, despite the really good work they were doing, and in in helping with testing and providing personal protective equipment and building field hospitals and having quaratines that all went by the wayside because of these kind of public

368
01:10:51.090 --> 01:11:08.619
issues. Remember that this is really the first time the military is really in the civilian space. So it's the first time people are actually seeing somebody in uniform, because the people today are removed, because in the past the government decides that they're never, ever going to use the military in their internal role again. So

369
01:11:08.810 --> 01:11:15.279
so the question, then, is, what accountability measures were in place?

370
01:11:15.300 --> 01:11:27.539
so here the the courts played, and civil society played a very important role in bringing these matters to the court. great bringing the the, the matters to the court.

371
01:11:27.580 --> 01:11:49.360
so that And a specific announcement of regulations and visibility was given to the military Ombudsman, which provided a direct channel for complaints, and 58 complaints were immediately lodged, and very effectively then Dealt with by the military Ombudsman. So one can see here the importance of both oversight.

372
01:11:49.620 --> 01:12:09.569
Okay, the need for effective oversight, but also the need to be able to punish and monitor through these type of measures. What in terms of of the lessons learned, I mean, I think the the the first and really important lesson that was highlighted. Here

373
01:12:10.050 --> 01:12:23.079
was the need to a critical need in South Africa to re look at the nature and functions of the armed forces, and how to restructure the armed forces of the tasks that they are going to be facing in the future. Because, yeah.

374
01:12:23.330 --> 01:12:25.090
I just made it a

375
01:12:26.400 --> 01:12:41.519
so so that that is really that in terms of the COVID-19, it really highlighted where the shortcomings were in terms of operational planning coordination where the gaps were.

376
01:12:41.550 --> 01:12:51.910
and in terms of the need to be more prepared to deal with the increasing array of challenges that the state is facing within the domestic sphere.

377
01:12:52.220 --> 01:12:53.160
Thank you.

378
01:12:59.160 --> 01:13:06.160
Thank you, Lindy, and I'll finally Christian Lloydpress going back to the situation in Canada

379
01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:15.340
like.

380
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:40.659
So you can see from Lindy what motivated this project. I think the you know, other than the the terrific opportunity to work together with Lindy, and to have somebody to be able to bridge both the the sort of Western Euro Atlantic Alliance usually kind of. We just write about countries sort of within NATO and then partner countries.

381
01:13:40.710 --> 01:13:49.860
But here thing was really important to get a global perspective. And so having a partner in this project

382
01:13:49.930 --> 01:14:16.900
from a sociology background that comes from an African perspective was really important in terms of capturing the comparative dynamics here. And one of the things that you'll notice about half the cases that we have are not from the your Atlantic your Atlantic region. so we really tried to get a get a good global coverage and the concern, but I think what brought us together. We're sort of

383
01:14:16.900 --> 01:14:33.510
comparable concerns my concern about the increasing use of the military for tasks that are not really military tasks. So I mean, if you talk to Canadian Armed Forces officer

384
01:14:33.660 --> 01:14:40.540
even at the beginning of 2,020, none of them would have ever been able to guess

385
01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:51.509
that they would be sent into old age care homes to pick up for the mismanagement and under-regulation of provincial governments.

386
01:14:51.700 --> 01:14:57.270
and just a month ago a colonel in Quebec.

387
01:14:57.360 --> 01:15:11.589
being sent out to help with forest fires, saying, this is not something that we train or prepare for. I mean, we'll go out and we'll see what we can do. But it shows you the the changing nature of the security challenges.

388
01:15:11.590 --> 01:15:29.059
That, on the one hand, the military is confronted with, and I think, as the presentations pointed out, the military is not really traditionally prepared for, or thinks about how to tackle these, and, on the other hand, the changing sort of government expectations.

389
01:15:29.060 --> 01:15:49.990
When we face a challenge that we have no other way of dealing with it, we securitize it, and we send in the military, because either we didn't have enough foresight to build civilian institutions, or because we didn't invest adequately in those institutions, and so from a democratic perspective, my concern about the military. So if this fall back

390
01:15:49.990 --> 01:16:04.610
position, and then, of course, as you heard from Sel, so if you, as you heard from Lindy, in the in sort of the the States, that sort of are more recently democratizing the challenges that both

391
01:16:04.610 --> 01:16:15.819
military authority presented, and the way the military then enacted that authority in terms of its relationship with the civilian

392
01:16:15.940 --> 01:16:17.859
with the civilian population.

393
01:16:19.150 --> 01:16:21.650
So in terms of the

394
01:16:21.690 --> 01:16:27.439
specific Canadian problem. I think there's sort of 3 questions.

395
01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:34.389
The first is to what extent are domestic operations and distractions from the armed forces readiness.

396
01:16:34.640 --> 01:16:42.610
So most armed forces, especially like in NATO member countries. But I get the sense elsewhere.

397
01:16:42.730 --> 01:16:55.880
are quite stretched already. So we have 25 years of people of politicians focusing on operations with little investment in sustainment and with little investment on reconstitution of the force.

398
01:16:56.250 --> 01:17:19.750
And so the forces already don't really have. There's no excess capacity. So every time you send them on a domestic operation, it comes at the expense of either the training cycle or some of the operational involvements or an opportunity for people to just come back from operations to ha to have a bit of time to to recover.

399
01:17:20.020 --> 01:17:30.040
And because of the focus on operations. It also means that you're constantly understaffed on the sustainment and on the reconstitution piece.

400
01:17:30.100 --> 01:17:54.619
So because inherently, when you have operations, certain operations, you have to staff up fully when you deploy in Latvia. It's not going to be much of a deterrence for the Russians if you don't have a fully staffed up brigade. So that means that under other places are are going to be significantly more understaffed than they otherwise already would be. Given the shortfall in the Kenya case of Kenny, armed forces of about 10,000 people on a force of 72,000.

401
01:17:54.910 --> 01:18:21.570
This also, then, this is aggravated by the pandemic on training regimes, and so forth, where people weren't getting the training that they needed, and recruitment, and so forth. So so so the challenge about the distraction from from from readiness, and in particular combat readiness. The second question is, is it actually better to have civilian agencies do this these tasks? And if you look at Federations.

402
01:18:21.570 --> 01:18:31.710
There's different solutions to these. There's sort of 4 basic models, right? So that's the Us model. You've all heard of Fema, a huge bureaucracy that rolls very slowly.

403
01:18:31.810 --> 01:18:53.749
So there's probably no way to run your domestic operations less efficiently and less effectively than Fema. But Fema works in the Us. Circumstances, because a lot of us States have very limited capacity. when it comes to be able to deploy in these in the, in these sort of circumstances

404
01:18:53.820 --> 01:19:15.840
the other is an Australian approach where you have state emergency services. So you essentially have at the state level many European countries. Germany has this. The technical sales back. it's essentially civilian agencies that can respond to these dynamics. And the part of this is, of course, driven by exogenous security environment. If you look at Australia.

405
01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:39.010
so the concerns that you might actually have to be involved in a conflict and at the same time respond to domestic domestic operations, domestic emergency. So you want to keep these structures separate with a very large, with a very small professional and a very large volunteer core and the legislative framework to enable that. So if you look at the way Australia response to bush fires and so forth, it's mainly through State emergency services.

406
01:19:39.030 --> 01:19:56.459
The third option is you outsource it to Ngos, as in the case of the Red Cross. This is eventually much of the work that Canada ended up doing once we got the military out of the old age care homes, and your fourth is to have a dedicated unit within the Department of National Defence.

407
01:19:56.470 --> 01:20:07.640
and that sort of in Canada. My proposition, one of the reasons why in Canada, when the Federal Government is called upon to assist it, tends to assist with

408
01:20:07.640 --> 01:20:33.500
the Canadian armed forces as opposed to providing other mechanisms of assistance is, there's a problem of liability, that's to say, the moment the Federal Government responds, who is actually liable when things go wrong. And so it's easier for the government to respond in a capacity where it owns all the liability rather than trying to figure out how we're going to coordinate some of these responses in terms of the division of labor with the with the provinces.

409
01:20:33.580 --> 01:21:03.510
so there's important endogenous effects. But there's basically 4 different models of how to do this. and we're going to need to figure this out because, given the changing nature of security dynamics in the world where we're responding to increasingly having the armed forces response to these challenges that they're not conventionally postured or trained for, and the frequency of those responses. the I think the current situation is not really sustainable. So Kenya armed forces, sort of

410
01:21:03.620 --> 01:21:13.320
standard mandates that all armed forces have. So you know, in national defense support for NATO Norad. The United Nations support for law enforcement support for national emergencies.

411
01:21:13.320 --> 01:21:25.120
Well, the interesting thing here is that the last 2 the kinem forces are not resourced for so that is to say, when you're doing support for law enforcement. Are you doing domestic operation, national emergencies?

412
01:21:25.120 --> 01:21:47.620
There's no standing force structure to respond to those. So every time you're so, they are standing for for structures to to do, NATO to do Nora to do the United Nations, and so forth. So when you respond, it always means you have to take troops from somewhere, because those troops in a dedicated fashion don't exist. So it's always going to be a 0 sum game every time you have a

413
01:21:47.620 --> 01:21:58.290
domestic operations in Canada. So one of the interesting dynamics in the book is, how do different entities structure this in terms of civil military relations?

414
01:21:59.410 --> 01:22:15.749
So the way we conventionally understand civil military relations doesn't map well onto domestic operations. So if you think about Huntington and keeping the military out of politics, if you think about January, it's how you manage that relationship. if you think about Rebecca Schiff. So the

415
01:22:16.010 --> 01:22:39.959
the the the proposition that that Lindy brought up, and and that that, I think, is the most work of this Peter Fever's approach in terms of in terms of principle agent relationships. And you already got this in the other presentations, which is sort of this relationship between the the executive, that in many countries sort of over reaches with the military.

416
01:22:40.010 --> 01:23:03.110
then the oversight and accountability measures in place for that. And if you don't have adequate monitoring, it has a significant impact on effectively legitimacy and and and in public opinion. So this relationship in a, in a democratic framework, between oversight, accountability and legitimacy for domestic operations, for the armed forces is is critical.

417
01:23:03.740 --> 01:23:33.519
The Canadian context is somewhat particular, because there's no other democratic country in the world that I know of, where the the executive has more unrestricted authority in terms of its deployment of the armed forces. So the Crown Prerogative in terms of the Armed forces is essentially unlimited. There's virtually no clear restrictions on how the Federal Government can deploy its armed forces. Unlike other countries that you know, Pasi, comment had us in the United States or so

418
01:23:33.640 --> 01:23:54.259
 but it is ultimately at the discretion of the Federal Government how it responds to the request for assistance that. that that Tyler had mentioned, and so the So the 3 sort of acts of that governess in terms of the National Defense Act, emergency and management, and and emergency measures, and so he can

419
01:23:54.260 --> 01:24:09.560
the different forms of deployment. There's 4 different ways. You can deploy domestically, but the key is that under 3 of those the military remains clearly under civilian leadership and civilian authority only under in and in national emergencies.

420
01:24:09.560 --> 01:24:27.159
a situation with the military be deployed in a law enforcement capacity. So it's important always to understand that when the military is deploying the democracies, it's not usually deployed, or, I should say, sort of in the in the euro Atlantic sort of realm. It is not usually deployed

421
01:24:27.160 --> 01:24:47.029
in a law enforcement capacity, but rather in a support to civil authorities. Capacity, even like if you watched in France, for instance, the riots in recent days, when you see the military out there, there's always a police in there that's with them. That's providing the the command structure. So if you look at the pictures, you can see how the command, how the operations work.

422
01:24:47.080 --> 01:24:55.899
but here's sort of. So here you get a sense of sort of what what the military is being called out for. Of course, with climate change we can expect some of these call out to

423
01:24:55.940 --> 01:24:57.250
to increase.

424
01:24:57.260 --> 01:25:05.629
So the concern here is that the way the military is being deployed is changing both quantitatively and qualitatively.

425
01:25:05.750 --> 01:25:25.599
So the collards are getting more frequent. The callers are getting longer, the callers are getting larger and they're growing more complex in terms of what we're asking the military, the military to do most of these operations traditionally are quite manageable, so simply looking at the quantitative number, the call outs

426
01:25:25.600 --> 01:25:45.469
won't actually give you go traction on these new challenges, because most of the college are relatively limited. They are a couple of weeks. You help with sort of some flood somewhere or some some storm sort of recovery, and you draw down again. So it's reasonably manageable with the reserve capacities that you have. But it's that qualitatively changing nature of the

427
01:25:45.620 --> 01:25:47.630
That's that's important.

428
01:25:47.680 --> 01:26:05.240
The 3 dimensions also, in terms of the way the military is called out so primarily for general labor, it's usually capacity in order to provide some sort of support with the. So so the second is in terms of emergency services for transportation and equipment. So that's particularly an Air Force task.

429
01:26:05.240 --> 01:26:21.020
and the third is specialized capabilities. So logistics, mobile equipment operators, engineers. So when Tyler mentioned the conversation about potentially bringing in the Ottoman convoy that you all heard about, and you saw about on TV. Then there was a debate about bringing in the military.

430
01:26:21.020 --> 01:26:37.269
Contrary to popular opinion. It was not about bringing in the military and the law enforcement capacity. It was bringing in the military in order to support the local police with planning, intelligence and logistics operations which, of course, police don't, which police don't. don't have

431
01:26:38.750 --> 01:26:44.699
in terms of the almost unfettered power of the executive when it comes to the deployment of the armed forces

432
01:26:45.360 --> 01:26:55.490
in Canada has an interesting accountability gap in the sense that the Legislature does not approve deployments of the armed forces.

433
01:26:55.590 --> 01:27:11.339
The only time that happened was for For a deployment with regards to to Afghanistan. So the only thing the legislature can do is provide accountability after the fact, so it can review. But it doesn't have any real-time capacity to engage with the government.

434
01:27:11.340 --> 01:27:29.039
especially if you have a government that basically didn't have the legislature sit all that much during the pandemic, as was the case in in in Canada. So again, what's the relationship between the executive and the legislature in terms of legitimation and accountability. interesting questions in terms of military relations.

435
01:27:29.350 --> 01:27:57.990
 And so I think with the time that we have, then I'll just. I'll just finish up here. But I hope sort of I've been able to proud you that this is a this is a a challenging and and and a growing question, I think, for us all to tackle Both in terms of civil military relations, theory in terms of force, structure in terms of force employment, and enforce in terms of the broadening expectations that

436
01:27:57.990 --> 01:28:05.809
the public and politicians have of militaries, as well as the challenges that militaries themselves have, with, as you all heard.

437
01:28:05.810 --> 01:28:25.409
declining budgets, recruitment challenges, aging equipment. So in addition to everything that we're asking them to do, we're now asking them to do ever more on the on the domestic side. And so in some ways we shouldn't be surprised that that's leading to often rather suboptimal outcomes. So

438
01:28:25.550 --> 01:28:38.810
the proposition here is that this clearly is an area that requires much more attention both from a democratic perspective as well as from an efficiency and effectiveness perspective. So, thanks for your interest, and look forward to the discussion.

439
01:28:49.140 --> 01:29:00.930
Thank you very much to all presenters, including dealing graciously with the technical obstacles. Considering this, I think we could take 20 min more time

440
01:29:01.070 --> 01:29:05.239
to enter into a discussion, and

441
01:29:05.440 --> 01:29:19.780
So I'll ask for a first round of questions from the floor, and in the meantime, I'll also look at Those online to see if there are questions put in the chat of soon. So who

442
01:29:19.910 --> 01:29:22.170
could I give the mic from

443
01:29:22.410 --> 01:29:24.399
the public here present.

444
01:29:33.370 --> 01:29:34.080
Yes.

445
01:29:46.160 --> 01:29:48.919
we only have 10 min after all.

446
01:29:50.300 --> 01:29:53.670
discourage you. I would say

447
01:29:54.280 --> 01:29:55.530
the business

448
01:29:56.610 --> 01:29:58.460
also here at.

449
01:29:59.200 --> 01:30:00.250
and 30.

450
01:30:07.180 --> 01:30:19.380
I'd like to ask it to to our presenters from the Philippines. To what extent was there effective civilian oversight of the military during this period?

451
01:30:26.270 --> 01:30:27.639
well.

452
01:30:29.120 --> 01:30:31.629
no, I I think it's a

453
01:30:33.330 --> 01:30:34.150
yeah.

454
01:30:35.160 --> 01:30:39.420
Yeah. I think during this time. So the

455
01:30:39.800 --> 01:31:10.569
 the interagency task for, as I mentioned, was the interagency task force was focused on the pandemic response was headed by former top-ranking military and police officials. But We also had to work with the national disastrous reduction and Management Council, which is a council of all the different government agencies that are responding as well to the pandemic. So there's like 2

456
01:31:10.570 --> 01:31:32.509
different tasks for us, or councils that were in place. So that was also another layer of civilian oversight, because that is mostly headed by in terms of response. It's mostly headed by the Social Welfare Department. So they help

457
01:31:32.670 --> 01:31:36.350
facilitate a lot of the response operations as well.

458
01:31:40.040 --> 01:31:49.330
There are a few people also on Zoom, so maybe you would either ask a question or write them in the chat. We can hear you if you open your mic.

459
01:31:51.400 --> 01:31:52.670
Are they hearing me

460
01:31:55.300 --> 01:31:56.260
one from?

461
01:32:00.560 --> 01:32:05.130
I see. Dr. Lou Gayen raised a hand in zoom. Please go ahead.

462
01:32:05.710 --> 01:32:06.500
Look.

463
01:32:09.990 --> 01:32:15.440
Oh, no, it's not him. It's my own hand. It's the cursor. Yeah.

464
01:32:19.490 --> 01:32:22.389
Do you see a question.

465
01:32:23.160 --> 01:32:25.740
It's not here. I don't see it as we

466
01:32:26.200 --> 01:32:29.059
all right. So there is a question.

467
01:32:29.450 --> 01:32:31.370
yeah.

468
01:32:33.730 --> 01:32:44.449
post control question for Tyler from Luke Gayen. can you speak to the impact on families of surface people who were called up to do Covid work?

469
01:32:44.750 --> 01:32:46.779
Was there any pushback

470
01:32:47.720 --> 01:32:48.540
highway?

471
01:32:54.840 --> 01:32:55.710
I

472
01:33:00.130 --> 01:33:13.390
there was negligible pushback, I would say, in the in the Canadian, construct the process by which, so you have to volunteer to be reservist. We have no conscripted service of any kind.

473
01:33:13.420 --> 01:33:20.320
We had conscription towards the end of the First World War, and towards the end of the Second World War, and the

474
01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:35.549
no other point in peacetime Canadian history, so we do not have conscripted service. So you have to volunteer to be a reservist in the first place, and similarly only during the First and Second World War is where reservists

475
01:33:36.140 --> 01:33:40.059
coercively called up like you had to report for duty.

476
01:33:40.080 --> 01:33:46.059
That has not been the case in Canadian law since 1,904.

477
01:33:46.330 --> 01:34:00.130
So the Militia Act, until 1,904. If you were called up in aid of the civil power, or the inventive invasion, or something like that. If you are a part-time soldier, you are liable for service, since 1,904 that hasn't been the case.

478
01:34:00.270 --> 01:34:08.609
So none of those part-time soldiers who were called up were forced to report for duty.

479
01:34:09.090 --> 01:34:25.309
They just like, for instance, many of the soldiers at my unit, the 40 Eighth Highlanders of Canada. They could raise their hand and say, Sure, I'm I'm happy to go. I'm happy to sit on my rucksack until I'm needed to go north or go wherever, but otherwise no obligation at all.

480
01:34:25.310 --> 01:34:39.989
and that could be for personal reasons, for for moral reasons or simply employment reasons. In Canada we do not have, because it's regulated by the provinces. We don't have a robust system of employment protection.

481
01:34:40.480 --> 01:34:53.729
So if you get. If you dedicate yourself to reserve service, and you go on a deployment or something like that, depending on your province, you might have employment protection, or you might come home and have no job.

482
01:34:55.310 --> 01:35:06.219
So for that it's very touch and go in terms of how many people would would necessarily raise their hand for that kind of service. So in terms of backlash negligible.

483
01:35:09.870 --> 01:35:13.749
Thank you, Tyler, and thanks Luke on Zoom for the question.

484
01:35:13.830 --> 01:35:17.100
Any other question or comment from the audience.

485
01:35:19.740 --> 01:35:21.480
We still have 5 min.

486
01:35:23.960 --> 01:35:25.390
Let's give you the money.

487
01:35:39.760 --> 01:35:48.120
 so yeah, you said that in conflict. areas this military intervention?

488
01:35:48.280 --> 01:35:56.780
 happen to protect the related

489
01:35:56.930 --> 01:35:58.489
issues.

490
01:35:58.530 --> 01:36:05.899
So how these are the people, the victimized people, or how affected people saw the intervention of military there.

491
01:36:06.010 --> 01:36:09.029
So what were their response?

492
01:36:09.510 --> 01:36:20.950
Because I come from Sri Lanka. So during the covid time in the minority areas.

493
01:36:20.980 --> 01:36:36.429
they are being like surveillance, and their security has been tightened. So this is a kind of double marginalization discrimination. So how it provided such opportunity for the Government.

494
01:36:36.490 --> 01:36:51.610
Through deploying Military forces in these conflict areas to suppress or discriminate, or marginalize, or to keep control the population over there. So I just want to hear from your case how they they were doing.

495
01:36:51.760 --> 01:37:18.049
Yeah, so that's actually a limitation of my study, because the locus of what I talked about was in Gavita, where there's not really an active conflict area there. So the military base there, there's a lot of families there. They grow up there. So there are schools. So it's a whole community, and it's more of a training facility. So that's not

496
01:37:18.110 --> 01:37:24.819
what I focused on on my study. But there are a lot of news reports of

497
01:37:24.889 --> 01:37:45.069
when they go there to communities to enforce these social distancing rules and curfew rules. There is a lot more tension there because of the existing conflict that it's going on, and because these are again part of their roles.

498
01:37:45.090 --> 01:37:53.440
and they kind of also added on top of whatever their security operations is ongoing there.

499
01:37:55.350 --> 01:37:57.370
Thank you, Maria, I think.

500
01:37:57.430 --> 01:38:02.580
for closure. We have one final question from Zoom, from Leslie Lopez.

501
01:38:03.000 --> 01:38:16.019
That's a tough one. Given the diversity, she asks in all these settings, is there any way to to go towards a common understanding of the role of the military across countries during the pandemic?

502
01:38:16.320 --> 01:38:27.390
So that's a a question she asked to everybody. So. But is there anyone in particular from the presenters who would like to? Maybe the book organizers because the book will probably address this.

503
01:38:27.580 --> 01:38:30.370
Lindy, can I or Christian

504
01:38:30.540 --> 01:38:31.559
utility?

505
01:38:32.930 --> 01:38:36.570
So I'll do the the easy part, and Lindy can do the hard part.

506
01:38:36.750 --> 01:38:43.409
But I think what we, what we came down on as a common denominator, is.

507
01:38:43.430 --> 01:38:47.969
So Peter Fever's approach is looking at this as a principal agent problem.

508
01:38:48.280 --> 01:38:57.520
So in some ways, the people in in particular. the people's representative. as

509
01:38:57.600 --> 01:39:10.050
as the principal and the the agent, than being the military. But the problem, of course, that the military, by and large, is subject to the power of the executive.

510
01:39:10.190 --> 01:39:16.550
and the high risk of either executive overreach in terms of the way it uses the military

511
01:39:16.600 --> 01:39:19.370
or the risk of

512
01:39:19.450 --> 01:39:41.829
using the military as a political instrument, because things are getting a little bit. Dicey in electoral writings in Canada that you definitely want to win in the next election, and where there's a bunch of old aged care homes that are going off the rails. And so you want to send in the military because you want to make sure you want to win those elections, and you don't want to have too many of the old folks in those in those old age care care homes, dying off

513
01:39:41.980 --> 01:39:44.350
as a result of the pandemic.

514
01:39:44.510 --> 01:39:58.119
And so how you structure this sort of from a from a rational, choice perspective principal agency sort of relationship. That's, I think, the fundamental sort of both the theoretical framing and the practical challenge

515
01:39:58.270 --> 01:40:01.090
that were presented with

516
01:40:01.190 --> 01:40:08.779
here, and making sure you actually get the behavior and the actions out of that agent

517
01:40:08.900 --> 01:40:21.629
that you, as the principle, are ultimately looking for, and as we identify the you think about this as a ways means end problem, what are the intermediaries in terms of

518
01:40:21.700 --> 01:40:37.890
proper a proper accountability proper oversight and review and proper legitimacy that are going to give you the results that you're looking for for your armed forces, both in terms of when you deploy them, and in terms of how you deploy them.

519
01:40:40.770 --> 01:40:43.710
Leslie Lopez: Okay, thank you very much.

520
01:40:43.770 --> 01:41:12.009
Leslie Lopez: for that clarification. I am just grappling with the fact that in. I post authoritarian countries like the Philippines, where the principal and the agents will sometimes get reverse. Maybe the post covid situation is a good opportunity also to look at the fluidity of the situation and come up with an updated or maybe a counterpoint

521
01:41:12.040 --> 01:41:32.359
Leslie Lopez: to Peter Beavers. rational or principal agents. theory. Thank you. Thank you for the wonderful presentation of all the panelists I learned so much, and I hope that Sabrina, Maria Sabrina and I can get to work with you in the future.

522
01:41:32.690 --> 01:41:34.380
Leslie Lopez: Good morning. Thank you.

523
01:41:34.600 --> 01:41:37.730
Thank you, Leslie. Also for your participation

524
01:41:38.020 --> 01:41:46.910
through the Internet. So I think now we have to close this session, and one more time a round of applause for presenters and for yourself.

525
01:41:48.250 --> 01:41:50.450
And

526
01:41:50.910 --> 01:42:17.000
I would like to also to mention that everybody is invited to the business meeting of Research Committee 0. One of is a Armed Forces and conflict resolution that will start in a few minutes in M. 14 on the first floor, one floor down here at the Crown. So again, thank you very much, and the have a good continuation of the Isa Conference.