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we just take it for granted. All right. let us start and let me welcome you to the panel. Future visions of society, visual data, and ethics. My name is Paulo Ferro. I'm going to chair the session

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that has been organized by Denisova University of Macau and Gary Branchford.

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 to university. I never remember Central Lancashire.

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so

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we have a first presentation to Wenchen from the University of Changi.

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and thy one pieces.

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I think it should be as simple as this.

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And it kind of is.

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But we, I think we need to

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height video panel. That should be okay.

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Thank you.

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Okay? Good afternoon. it's my pleasure to be here to present. my recent work on the concept of a thick government priority and the regions of representation.

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I'm taking a virus. articulated matter and the semiconductor devices as an example. And especially, I focus on the the cases in Taiwan, the South Korea.

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I think you may know that this virus particulate matter and the semiconductor devices

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very separated by things. Always we consider them the separatory. But today I want to

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collect them together, and especially you may know that there's one thing in common among these

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micro things, that is, they are all invisible to human eyes. and especially in the past 3 years, when we are in the We were in the pandemic. This is. Things are very important in our daily daily life.

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So in my presentation, I want to show you that my major purpose here is to uncover the mechanism of visually governing invisible objects

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in East Asia societies, especially in Taiwan and South Korea in the 20 first century.

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First of all, I want to. let you have. A simple idea about the scales of this microscopic

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matter.

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As you may know, a human hair. The diameter is around 81,000 200,000 Naira meter.

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and what we called a particulate matter, or Pm. 2.5 as a one

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2 point of 5,000 nanometer

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and particular particle diameter of the COVID-19 virus at around the 80, 200 nanometer, and the channel waves of the most advanced

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semiconductor devices is around 3 nanometer. so they are far beyond the capacity capacity of our human eyes.

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Ibn and I I mean the the bacteria discovered by the Louis master. He can only observe it by his microscopic instruments. It's around about 1,100

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narrow meter. So today we are talking about the macroscopic murders beyond our recognition. If we cannot make them visible to to our our world. And today I want to

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explain how these are. Tiny things could be governed by a broodian concept of governmentality.

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You can see on the left side a figure. it is a I did. But from the many wars of the Michel Cole, and when he started about the the bio, we can see that

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I'll power as a

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between 2 pores. One is a biopolitics at the level of population, the other is a disciplinary power at the level of human body.

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When the norm are defined by power, politics.

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 an assembly to human body.

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it realized that disappearingly power and the resort

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can be accumulated

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calculated and the interpreted into normal and become essential elements of the biopolitics. So we can see that we can say that the government parity is a susceptibility from bio politics to discipline power as a circle.

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But to to my opinion, this kind of concept is too shallow.

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It's just a to feel in the society. We cannot understand how

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the society such as Taiwan or or South Korea can overcome the problem of a virus, the the particular matter, or even the semiconductor technology. So I propose a new concept that modified from Michelle to call. I called it thick government priority, and I will explain this later.

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and

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highly inspired by the working married doggers when she studied the Book of Numbers.

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in fact. the book, a number is is a very complicated books, in which The phenomena in the in the Judy's tribes. Beyond our imagination, but the Merrick-doggers of Find the regular insight, and he proposed, On the figure light the you can see in the left and on the left is the low

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and the

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and you you can see law and the story they interchange between such and they form and constitute a ring.

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So this ring is that we can

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use the right side of the figure to represent it between the normal and the weightedness.

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And again, it's a circle from tribal tradition to individual live. So I combine this concept to my own kind of concept from Michelle to constitute a sick government charity, and I think the most important thing is that it's not only the rationality.

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Visuality is also very important in making sense of government charity, so I will try to combined the 2 together to explain in our advanced new Liberalism society how

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these invisible things can be governed. especially in in East Asia, and I propose to kind of the governance technology. One is

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protective technology, the other is a productive technology.

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And these 2 technology iterate in between

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from normal to norm. And on the other hand, we can have the productive

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of technology to make things

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sensible. It's a same thing, technology. And, on the other hand, it provides a

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the base of the sense making for protective technology. It's a little bit complicated, but I will show you some, some, some some pictures, and later, but

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you can find that the protect protective technology is the purpose. Purpose is to eliminate harmful substance. to

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human, to people and productive technology is to skew continuous manufacturing of products.

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So if you

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need to make the production to manufacture something, you need to guarantee the house, the security of the people.

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you should utilize protective technology to protect people.

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And thus you can increase. You can enhance the productive technology. So the 2 cannot be separated. But always we. We cannot understand the the process so especially. This is very important in in East Asian City. But

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I I must that you know that I I need to show you a lot of visual material. But in this occasion it's not possible. So so I, just to show you some necessary

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things to explain what I try to talk to you.

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First of all, I want to talk about the the governance of viruses.

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 this figure is very popular. You can say that all over the world. but it's very special. we we used to accept such kind of but arrangement of figures in a diagram, but you, you may find there is an image of a virus.

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It's in the scaled

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of 100

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narrow meter. And also you have a word map. It's scaled about

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a thousand kilo meter.

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but we

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make them together in the figure, and the same time we add some symbol. That is the name of the virus.

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So we have 2 words. One is a real world, the other as the symbolic war. And also we have different kind of scale, and they will put together in the figure. This is we what we know, how it, how we recognize the real world by this way. And also we call it a scientific way.

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But this this kind of picture may not work

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the East Asia Society, because the far away

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from our knowledge to our everyday life. I think this is more direct and more efficient to code to

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to make us realize that we are affected by viruses.

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The left side is in in Tegu city in the early, I think the 2,000 20 just outbreaked in in South Korea.

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and the right side is in Taiwan. It is up to the outbreak of in South Korea, the Taiwanese people line up before the drugstore

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to Baha'i facial fascination.

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So when we so this kind of photos.

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we? We also want to.

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by some facial mask, to protect ourself.

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Is it reasonable? Not very.

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but it is more effective and more powerful than

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this kind of figure. So.

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as I know in East Asia societies such as South Korea and Taiwan, we often use this kind of a public communication to diffuse

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what the people really need to protect themselves more then

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the abstractly to a scientific proof.

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And also there's so on the left as a a mobile tax. current people which area I install city people just p some, some some infected cases. It just arrived at something like that. And people when they look at their mobile phone, they know immediately they they can avoid. to

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to go to that place, and on the right side there is a before the the

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 hair cutter shop.

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and just like it's very direct. People can say that they should protect themselves. So in our everyday life we use visual way

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to protect, to to tell ourselves, to protect our ourselves by all kind of means.

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even that are not necessarily centipede, approved. Okay?

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And the second and second probe is the particular major matter. it's very especially important in in East Asia region. You may also see this.

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it's a photo taken over also in the hang on river sidings in Seoul City. Found a young guy riding the bar bike

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and the other side of the river. There's a buildings. and you can not see very clearly, because the air pollution is a very important, very steady.

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You, said they, using this utilizing this photo. people can know, must know that they should buy some facial mess to protect themselves. And you. You can thank you.

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I said, you, the online store.

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and they just show that here here show the the name. it's a yellow dust, especially you useful for the people. It's just for the the very important apparition phenomenon in South Korea coast by many China, because of the that does come from

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Mongol. Just kind of South Korea. And this makes sense also because because this phenomena is was before the outbreak of a pandemic COVID-19 pandemic. So in East Asia region, even in Taiwan people were

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facial mask very often, even before the communicating pandemic. So it just like a lifestyle in everyday life to use this kind of a a to protect ourselves.

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particular matter, or even viruses.

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Another interesting thing is this, also. In the Rivers side of Hong Kong we can find the machine that takes us to tell people, okay.

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that the air quality, how people can protect themselves. If it's right, it's very dangerous.

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And in Taiwan also, or you can see, look online with the colour and the sensing, the the environment, and the finally the the Michael Chip, the semiconductor chips. This is a status of the very famous engineer. Meccan Corbyn! He invented the the most famous, most fat device, and the Korean engineer watched him.

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Yeah. In the in the gate and main gate of the Semiconductor Research Center in the campus of the so National University. And this kind of

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act also become the very important geopolitical issue. As you can see here.

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there's nothing about semiconductor technology, but you can find there's some China, Us. And South Korea in between.

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abridged by the semiconductor ship. There is more, I may say, that reasonable to persuade the Korean people to support their government

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when they want to invest heavily

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in developing new technology in the semiconductor sector. So also it legitimized it make things. The technology development even is invisible. People can assemble it. Okay? So

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in my argument, the government parity is a specific form of government, especially in the Asian society, is characterized by multi-layered governance.

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compose of the rationality, and also visual regime's visuality is integrated the region of the representation in people's everyday life.

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Okay? And also I will. Finally, I will show you this picture. The Upper Upper One, is taken in the fabricate fabrication site.

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In the semiconductor of Plant in Taiwan the law of picture is taken, and a vaccine manufacturing site in Germany

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they are quite similar.

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People wear protective shoes, potatoes

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not only for protecting themselves, but also guarantee the cure, the sanity of their product.

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so as far as it is protective and also productive, so we can see from here. They cannot be separated, but so radically we can separate them by how they can attend. They can apply their rationality, the visuality of a governance.

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So finally, I will show you that

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the second. But mentality is a solid or it's not just a Sophia

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and the inside as a regional representation filled by visuality. All kinds of figures, pictures everything. And by way of a visual translation, we can cause different skills to persuade people in the society to accept the protective technology and also productive technology. So

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 okay, finally, the government governance technology is a built from process from scene to sensing, to sense, making, emphasizing a regional representation of resurrection, and it comprises step up, but presenting, testing, interpretating, and the invocation, but not necessarily scientific. Okay, thank you.

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It's my presentation.

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And then

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I don't know how.

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Thank you very much.

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let's see, I think we just click further here. Next presenter is Shabia Karner.

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Hello, everybody! I hope you're still awake after this jet lag and wonderful conversations we've been having? so oh, how do I advance? Is it just the arrows.

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Yes, okay.

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So what can we photograph who gets to be visible and who gets left invisible and answers vary by government regulations.

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could just say, sick government and governmentality. Now, organizational Irbs, legal council, academic disciplines

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for visual researchers negotiating the morass of regulations, often leaves certain segments of our social life off-limits

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as institutional procedures designate what can be studied from what cannot.

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In the United States prior to the early 1970, S. Neither social nor biomedical research was governed by Federal so human subjects. Regulations. Instead.

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research was regulated by non-binding international ethical codes, voluntary university, and private codes of conduct, and some State legislation.

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The first Federal Public Health Service policy for the protection of human Subjects. Research subjects was issued in 1966, but it was limited only to the medical

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and clinical experimentations in 1,981 is when the Us. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare developed the initial guidelines of the informed consent doctrine

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that included social science, research as well as biomedical.

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Almost immediately scholars began writing about the challenges and limitations of these guidelines. It was clear that using a biomedical understanding of research was a poor fit for social research, and especially qualitative and ethnographic projects.

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Many of our past insightful and important studies used passive covert methods to contribute key insights to our sociological body of knowledge.

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Those, like Goffman's seminal study of the Shetlander Islanders in 1,956 would not be approved today under current human subjects regulations

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in the Shetland Islands, Gofflin had first and foremost to camouflage his intentions to manage people's impressions of the outsider himself, so as not to arouse suspicion. He even went so far as to to talk about himself as a confidence man or a Con man in doing his research.

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Using this example, it's unlikely that any residents were harmed by Goffman's close observations, but the study would be undoable with a formal consent procedure that would alter the nature of participants. Behavior. Indeed, there's a long list of important contributions to our knowledge base that would not be approved under contemporary guidelines.

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Well, our classic studies relied upon the researchers, integrity and self-restraint. There is also a long list of researchers behaving badly.

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So I'm not here to argue against guidelines.

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but rather I would like to raise more questions about how we, as researchers and as a discipline, can have ethical guidelines that do not prevent significant work.

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So, as scholars continued to question how to do important work within these new guidelines and the institutional review boards that were implementing them. A broader discussion about representation grew in anthropology. To begin with with the publication of Clifford and Marcus's collection writing Culture.

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which is now a a classic text of the literary turn. These authors provided retrospective critiques of ethnographic conventions, and sought to address issues of systemic power, inequality, world system constraints and institutional formations that left all ethnographic accounts as partial.

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They were exploring a wider practice of writing about against and among cultures.

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and within these critiques of methods and representations, this strange idea, called visual sociology, was starting to garner interest.

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Well, many like to remind us that the American Journal of Sociology did include photographs in the very early years. The use of visual methods did not gain much Providence until the 1980 s. Even though Howard Becker started advocating for the use of the camera as early as the 1970 S.

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Now it wasn't until 1,983, when a small group of sociologists attending the American Sociological Association Conference.

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Sorry I forgot to advance

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 with until 1,983, when a small group of sociologists from the Asa Conference in Detroit responded to a query for those interested in visual sociology to meet at the University of Windsor, so, crossing into Canada, thus creating an international aspect of the organization. From the very beginning

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they developed a and minimal organizational structure to advance what was then a non-existent field, and which is now an internationally known group called International Visual Sociology Association.

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 Rose uses the term disciplinary visualities. To describe how different disciplines have specific ways of looking at the world.

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shaping how we see what we see. Indeed, what is visible, and in some cases may even be defining what knowledge is available to us.

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The variations in code of Essex illuminate the disciplinary visualities. Well, I think so. For example, you'll see the as a code.

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Yeah.

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Sorry lost. My fleece are for a minute jet lag. For example, the Asa attempted to develop a code of ethics as early as the 1,900 fiftys, but it wasn't until after several tries, they were finally able to do so with the memberships agreement in 1,969.

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So you can see here, there is that, in addition to the basic ideas about professionalism, including competence and integrity, both the Isa and the Asa adhere to the basic idea of do no harm. Doctrine of informed consent.

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voluntary participation, and the maintain the maintenance of anonymity and confidentiality.

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But, of course, when you bring a camera into the mix.

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anonymity and confidentiality, while still possible, must be addressed very differently than in text-based projects.

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So as you'll see, the Ivsa guidelines are more nuanced when it comes to public spaces and specific kinds of research

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and permissions where formal consent processes can be or may be, waived. If you can read that, I hope so.

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Additionally, the Ibsa recognizes that there may be a variety of ways of gaining consent, a consensual means for working with research participants

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that can be negotiated beyond a formal consent, procedure, procedure, and or form. While still advocating for voluntary participation in non deceptive methods, they provide an exception for public spaces where no harm is likely for those photographed.

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The Ivsa also has a very specific section for projects that include children, and the situations where the need for consent of a legal guardian may possibly be waived.

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Basically, if there's no harm likely no risk

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when it's just not practical. If you had a consent procedure, it would change the dynamic, or when the consent of a parent or guardian is not a reasonable requirement due to neglected or abused children.

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So most of my previous research visual work has really focused on writing about images rather than actually creating them myself.

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Thus I've been able to sidestep a lot of the issues that visual researchers face in the field when photographing. deciding where to aim their lens and what negotiation constitutes consent.

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In 2,019 I had the opportunity to accompany a documentary photographer, Marty Corn to Kakuma Refugee camp in Northern Kenya.

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Marty had been traveling to Kakima for a number of years, both for her personal work and to help a group of interested young photographers there starred a photographer's Co. OP. Dream Magical Studio, which you'll see in the top. There.

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We were sponsored for our visit by Phil, made an Ngo that has a long time involvement in Kakuma, and this allowed us to visit without having to get our own credentials approved a lengthy, costly, a bureaucratic process. I did look at it. I would have had to pay $1,000 Us. Dollars to have my credentials verified. So we were very grateful to film a.

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So in the slide, you can see basically where Kakam is located. There's a picture of the studio. And this is Marty's in the back. I'm in the foreground with the photographers. Co-OP, who, by the way, all did sign photographic releases.

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So just to touch about Kacema. It's one of the largest refugee camps in the world. It was established in 1 92, following the arrival of what's been known as the Lost Boys of Sudan. Since then the population of the camp has swelled to nearly 200,000, and includes people from over 19 different countries.

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Many have been in the camp since 90 92, and now have families of their own. Indeed, there is a whole new generation that has never known life outside the camp.

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So I've included the map here which I know you can't read the details, but it gives you an idea of how widespread the map or the camp is, and, like various sections, get added, each time more and more refugees

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are brought in, and then

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the Visitor's Guide for those of going to Kakuma has specific rules which I've included here about photographing in the in the park, so they're not asking for stringent.

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You don't have to have somebody sign a form, but they are saying you should get permission.

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So brings me to my quandary, where I could start asking some questions or raising questions things to consider

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so well. We spent the majority of our time at the dream magical studio, doing workshops for the Co-OP, but we also, of course, had time to explore. One outing was to a market area, and I began photographing and focusing on the material culture, you know, not people playing it safe.

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And eventually we would start talking with some of the shopkeepers, and and as

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they would call to us as we walk by, we would chat, and eventually I asked if I could photograph them.

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They seemed very happy to comply.

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and though I might be overstating it a bit, it was my impression that they were really happy to have somebody recognize them and want to take their picture.

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As I was photographing these 2 men, this other one came up to me and he saw me photographing, and he pulled me over, and he said, You know that he wanted me to take a picture of him, and he specifically wanted me to get his new signs at the top there in the image. So basically, he was directing how the photograph was going to be taken.

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As I continued through the market photographing. Other people would come up and want to be photographed.

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Like these 2, they were often posed, posed themselves in very specific ways. Hand signs were very common. I don't claim to understand them, but I found it very interesting that this is the way they wanted to be documented. They want it to be seen.

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This woman came up and approached me as well.

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 After seeing the first image, I would take all these images and then show them the back of the camera. That was the kind of magic of it to be able to see what they looked like. She saw the first picture, and was like No, no, no, no, no!

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And was shaking her head. We don't speak the same language. This was all done in pantomime, and so she readjusted and wanted to take her her burden off. So we took the second, and then she thought that was okay. She liked the second photo. So my question does letting the subject pose themselves constitute permission?

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This woman followed me for quite a while. I thought she was just asking for money, and I think she was asking for money, but as she watched me photograph everybody else eventually she just got right in my face with this kind of a stance

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pointed at me, pointed at the camera and pointed at her. So I figured that much. She wanted me to take her picture, and so I did.

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and I think it's one of the strongest portraits I have from the whole trip, actually.

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But even though she strongly wanted me to make a picture of her.

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is that permission?

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So my second quandary? So I have. That was the market. This is another time. We went and visited a Sudanese church that Marty had worked with in the past.

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A group of children came out and began singing and dancing for us.

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I didn't understand a thing. I don't even know exactly what language I assume. Maybe Sudanese, the Somali woman that was with me didn't understand, either, but the kids were super exuberant and joyful as kids can be.

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and I was so taken with the enthusiasm of the children, they were delighted having their pictures taken, I mean, seeing the back of the camera. Well, actually, that was my iphone I was using that whole day.

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 Often they attempted to push others out of the way so they could be at the center of the photograph, and they just had such a joyousness that surprised me and reminded me of the resilience of the human soul

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even in a refugee camp, and I must have made even more than 50 portraits that day.

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So it was a public space.

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I don't think these images could do any harm. but of course there's much that I may not know.

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much that could happen that I can't predict, nor can all the eventualities be known.

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Should the consent of parents be needed for this? Of course, many are orphans which adds another layer of complexity to deal with.

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so

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what constitutes permission.

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and who gets to be visible. And does it really depend more on what I, the photographer, call myself

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rather than the act of photographing. So if I'm a photojournalist.

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these examples I've given you are permissible.

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If I'm a fine art photographer, these examples are permissible.

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If I'm a visual researcher.

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maybe I should just call myself a photographer influenced by a sociological

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perception perspective, which is what most of my colleagues do to resolve this, but it leaves us still as a discipline

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in this ambiguous space, that if you follow the rules you might be leaving really important things invisible.

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So my question, who gets to decide? So I pose this question with no answers.

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and I look forward to comments and brilliant ideas from you all. So thank you.

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Thank you very much. Let me see how we get out of this. Yeah, we managed.

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and we have now

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now small are a fin who is connected to

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with us in zoom. But we assume, now

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zoom, is there?

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Hmm.

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this is interesting.

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Do you have a good answer to them? All right.

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I am because he has to share. N small. Can you hear us?

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yeah, perfect. Yeah. And we can hear you perfectly. So if you share your screen again, then we will probably be fine.

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Yeah.

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Nazmul Arefin: Oh, okay, great welcome. Everyone. I hope there is a evening now, and my name is Nas Mulari, and I'm presenting from Canada. and I'm a PC. Student. in the Department of Sociology at the University of Alberta.

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Nazmul Arefin: And as you can see that my today's topic is cinema as the othering apparatus in intensive why intensifying polarization?  so

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Nazmul Arefin: you might be out of that. That cinema not only represents the world we live in.

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Nazmul Arefin: It also persuades the audience about how to leave in in or and interpretation. Cinema is the ultimate pervert art. It is indeed.

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Nazmul Arefin: it is part of our. because it tells the audience how to desire.

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Nazmul Arefin: how to think and perceive about the things happening around us. It can transfigure the thought process of people in a particular designed way.

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Nazmul Arefin: So public discourses are shaped by the images constructed by the movies

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Nazmul Arefin: that really intergood me me to

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Nazmul Arefin: as a sociologist or as emerging. So she was to be interested about visual C, or or to to be most precisely about a new kind of emerging field called visual community as well.

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Nazmul Arefin: So

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Nazmul Arefin: let's talk about the background little bit more that after the incident of 9 11 by the what to resume the world.

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Nazmul Arefin: basically, I understand. So really easiest of terrorism

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Nazmul Arefin: and global cinema had found a new fascinating element of violence to showcase

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Nazmul Arefin: Indian cinema is not an exception to this. To the shift. An Indian flu industry took the benefit of the post. 9, 11 situation, and they started to present Muslims as terrorists

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Nazmul Arefin: in their flames in recent years. If you observe that hundreds of movies were made or produced on the subject of terrorism, and only Muslims were shown as terrorists

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Nazmul Arefin: who are fostering terrorism not only in India, but in the whole world.

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Nazmul Arefin: So from contemporary sociological perspectives, how the identity of a starting social groups

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Nazmul Arefin: is amazed, constructed, and disseminated through cinemas, cannot be node or overlook for many critical reasons.

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Nazmul Arefin: Historically. our history says that in almost every polarized society cinema

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Nazmul Arefin: is widely used by the power apprentices as an instructive

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Nazmul Arefin: instrument for the indoctrinate indoctrinating aptitudes, build values and beliefs for systematic reshaping otherness.

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Nazmul Arefin: So this paper sets out to understand to what extent the role of

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Nazmul Arefin: a role of cinemas in shaping us versus them in volume, in Indian discourses.

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Nazmul Arefin: or we can say that between the binary, between Hindu and Muslims

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Nazmul Arefin: I used close reading to of 2 contemporary cinema customer files and terabyte story, and their critics to to analyze and discuss about that, how cinema is powerfully playing a role in taping the us versus them discourses.

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Nazmul Arefin: So

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Nazmul Arefin: let's talk about my fast cinema custom files. So this movie portrait is the exodus of cushionary Hindu pundits

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Nazmul Arefin: from the

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Nazmul Arefin: the decision to declare the customer files tax free by the incumbent incumbent government

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Nazmul Arefin: raises questions about the political motivations behind the behind the move. It is concerning that if fame directed by the director, Joseph O'neill Free, who has been known to promote a certain political, I

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Nazmul Arefin: so let's talk about the how the cinema, the Kashmir files loaded with political come to controversies.

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Nazmul Arefin: So the cinema played a number game.

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Nazmul Arefin: The fleeing questionably asserts that the Kashmiri Pond, its were genocide by the Islamic need and see

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Nazmul Arefin: I mean genocide. I'm I'm sorry. X. I so does. And holocaust connections. What are repeated and info-sized during the cinema.

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Nazmul Arefin: The finally struggle, has murdered 4,000 cashmere pundits and displayed 500,000,

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Nazmul Arefin: I mean, in the cinema. The cinema claim that numbers so how many customer boundaries were killed in the conflict in real life, because the cinema claim that the movie based on a real story.

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Nazmul Arefin: and if you both the post right, you can say that that it it's it! Vividly repeated the tagline. It's never too late to learn that route.

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Nazmul Arefin: So it is the they never claim that it's a fictional flame, or it's a

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Nazmul Arefin: just a fiction, but they're playing that they almost.

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Nazmul Arefin: I mean, revealing a truth that was, I mean, under, exposed for it long long time.

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Nazmul Arefin: So that that that basically what I mean, it is a political concern for many of the frame critiques, many of the sociologists in India, and of course, an emerging

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Nazmul Arefin: I think I like me as well. So

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Nazmul Arefin: how many customary funded were killed in the conflict? The customer files the figure has the whole world around, as I said, 4,000. But the latest official figures, from the reasons Police Department indicate that it is actually 89. Only

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Nazmul Arefin: initial estimates stated, that was 270, while a citizen's group called Kashmiri Pundit Shanga Summiti, based in Kashmiri. They reported that the number was estimated around 7 to 700. But the cinema show is 4,000 killing.

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Nazmul Arefin: so none of these can be and start with any degree of sort. Anything. Thank you

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Nazmul Arefin: again all this mis misconception. The Prime Minister himself of India baptized the cinema, and said that an entire ecosystem was trying to discredit the cinema.

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Nazmul Arefin: the flame shown that truth which has been suppressed for years, that through prevailing customer file, so that that is the quotation, quote unquote, made by Prime Minister Modi.

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Nazmul Arefin: So

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Nazmul Arefin: observing the propaganda numbers and materials. Israeli director, I mean cinema director and jury. Hate of International Flame. Festival of India.

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Nazmul Arefin: Nada slams the festivals for inclusion of propaganda movie, like Cas customer files in the competition. And in this piece, at the closing ceremony he says that

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Nazmul Arefin: all of us were distraught and shocked by the movie the Cashmere files. It felt to us like a propaganda and vulner movie that was inappropriate for an artistic and competitive section of the prestigious Flame festival.

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Nazmul Arefin: However.

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Nazmul Arefin: the movie was. Even. The movie movie was seriously criticized by the opposition politician censor in India, for example, Srinivas B. V. The president of the Indian Youth Congress to that

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Nazmul Arefin: Prime Minister Moody. His government is Government B. Z. P. And the Rw. System. Februaryially promoted. The customer files a movie rejected by international stream festival of India.

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Nazmul Arefin: And ultimately hate gets called out. So this movie is not a movie, or only it. It

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Nazmul Arefin: caused so much political tensions around the India.

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Nazmul Arefin: and that is why I am calling it as an why, I'm calling it a state sponsor propaganda movie. So let me give some examples that how the movie was surprisingly supported by the Government

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Nazmul Arefin: instead of so many critics. And even in the International Film festivals.

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Nazmul Arefin: as you can see that the income and Government's national spoke. Persons are P. Seeing announced free tickets for policy students at razzing the Ngo, and to get that.

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Nazmul Arefin: let the new generation visit the history who is scared the soul of the nation. even in awesome chief Minister Hemontovish of Sarma, also announced similarly that

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Nazmul Arefin: government employees would be given half the special lead towards the movie

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Nazmul Arefin: and in Connot as well. This is the Mla. Also amounts that he will fund one of the show of the flame per day for an entire week.

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Nazmul Arefin: so that people can watch it free. free of it costs.

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Nazmul Arefin: So

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Nazmul Arefin: now let me try to see that the construction of binary or the construction of ours versus them in the movie, 2 of the cinema it was that the Muslims.

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Nazmul Arefin: who are basically repeatedly seen

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Nazmul Arefin: in the women and torturing and humiliating Hindu families out of Shia raise and blood lost.

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Nazmul Arefin: however, the fleeing deliberately raised that on January 2119 90, at least 50 Cashmony Muslim protesters were gone down by the security forces in stream number.

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Nazmul Arefin: so that one sided flame in in questions centers around the propagation of hatred through the establishment of a binary between

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Nazmul Arefin: Kashmiri, Muslim and Kashmiri prom in communities.

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Nazmul Arefin: And this is the argument as versus them was formed by the movie

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Nazmul Arefin:  staying. This form of Jammu and Kashmir, chief Minister may move the heat out at the Modi government over the flame.

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Nazmul Arefin: and say that quote the manner in which government of India is aggressively promoting customary files and weeponizing pain of Kashmiri pundits made there makes the

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Nazmul Arefin: ill intention, obviously, instead of healing old ones and creating a conducive atmosphere between the 2 communities, they are deliberately tearing them apart.

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Nazmul Arefin:  The customer files is not about touch me. Only

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Nazmul Arefin: rather, I add to that the recent? It's it's the expansion of the recent edition of Greater National Imaginary that has been historically reconstructing Muslim as otherwise as violent anti-nationalist and terrorist group.

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Nazmul Arefin: Let's see some screenshot of the movie that you can see that how the Muslims people are

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Nazmul Arefin: acclaiming the Hindu people as Indian dog, and how that even the sports like cricket, that he will hit a 6 against us.

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Nazmul Arefin: and you can see that I mean there are graffiti on the Kashmir that Indians go back. I mean, they've portrayed the customer as a Pakistani area or a reason, and that that the Muslim people are with arms and everything like a terrorist. They're just, I mean making slowdowns on. But

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Nazmul Arefin: into Muslims run or die.

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Nazmul Arefin: So these kinds of I mean scenes are basically loaded throughout the cinema. And now let's talk about. Or

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Nazmul Arefin: I mean, think about the what, the impact of the direct impact of the movie.

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Nazmul Arefin: why we should be consumed. The

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Nazmul Arefin: the flame endors by Prime Minister, not in the remote, and his Populist politics has spotted intense reaction, and even life threatening intimidation towards the Muslim community up after the release.

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Nazmul Arefin: There have been reports of violence against Muslims in India, who is the perpetrators themselves acknowledged was exhibited by the movie

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Nazmul Arefin: and audiences reacting into anti Muslim, chanting in theaters across the country.

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Nazmul Arefin: So we can say, I mean, like, what in turn to a start up

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Nazmul Arefin: said that that the movie offers a frightening gleams into the part of division, and a hate of

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Nazmul Arefin: Modi. Government has embarked the country on it insists the atrocities against Kashmiri Hindus amount to genocide.

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Nazmul Arefin: In reality, it's the movie itself that is priming the country to support genocide against Muslims.

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Nazmul Arefin: So now let me introduce my second cinema

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Nazmul Arefin: whose name is

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Nazmul Arefin: I just you on 10 min. Yeah.

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Nazmul Arefin: So yeah, I mean, 5 min is fine for me. Yeah, I guess.

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Nazmul Arefin: So.

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Nazmul Arefin: so the movie was released on May 25, 2,023 And the movie was and that the pre-prise journal policy it a new genre of propaganda flames.

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Nazmul Arefin: And so, as you can see that in Tamil, nervous state and association of multiplex on our side, they would stop screening the flame citing protest, and for the low audience. Even West Bingle, State, governed by the tinemal Congress, banned the fleeing, saying it that it could be dangerous to piece and order.

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Nazmul Arefin: Interestingly, however, the incumbent Government leaders. Oh, the we have voice their opposition to the Prohibition

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Nazmul Arefin: rather than I mean. The Prime Minister movie had praised the flame during an election, really saying that it tried to expose the consequence of terrorism in a society.

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Nazmul Arefin: So now let's dig out the what phones over controversy actually created by the movie the the Flames. Most controversial claims that that $32,000 from Kerala have gone missing after being forcibly converted to Islam, and recruited by the Islamic state.

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Nazmul Arefin: whereas the Us. State Departments country put on terrorism. 2,020. There were 66 known Indian origin fighters affiliated with the is.

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Nazmul Arefin: And for this boy, Billy, and big like the chief minister of Kerala Bizarre, and slammed the movie by saying that

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Nazmul Arefin: in the of the movie we see a walks that topic. 2,000 we men in Kerala were converted, and they can members of the Islamic state. This bogus story is a product of the visa is live. Actually.

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Nazmul Arefin: So, I mean, this is how these these movies are promoting stereotype, depicting radical Muslims are actively lowering in Hindu and Christian gals to marry and recruit them as scatters for the Islamic state.

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Nazmul Arefin: whereas, the truth is, as you can see, that in 2,020, the new Indian express reported in Kerala that 241 persons converted from Christianity or Islam

342
00:54:56.370 --> 00:55:09.830
Nazmul Arefin: to Hinduism, accounting for 47% of the 5 506 conversions documented with the government, whereas Islam extracted 144 converts and Christianity 109.

343
00:55:09.890 --> 00:55:13.240
Nazmul Arefin: But the generalized story, as you can see that they are

344
00:55:13.290 --> 00:55:25.260
Nazmul Arefin: trying to send a message to the Hindi speaking audience that look people. The state you thought was God's own country is in the Gree of the wrong board, and the epidemic is spreading.

345
00:55:25.750 --> 00:55:33.150
Nazmul Arefin: and they also produce a black and live out conversion and love jihad to tantamount hatred and binary.

346
00:55:34.200 --> 00:55:47.759
Nazmul Arefin: So all together we can. I can say that the 2 flames icon. I I analyze the fundamental in Norwich, the cultural, political, and ideological otherness of the Muslims with support of the basically government.

347
00:55:48.160 --> 00:55:53.249
Nazmul Arefin: So some few points to ponder, and I will finish my presentation that

348
00:55:54.610 --> 00:56:09.929
Nazmul Arefin: the cinemas I can can and should be seen as the meters of present Populist democracy. It shows us the uncontrollable tracks of the Us. Versus them. Politics of the prison, Populist

349
00:56:10.070 --> 00:56:27.770
Nazmul Arefin: India under modi government. It is increasingly important to understand the role of politicians in advertising and minimizing the correct. I also argue that the resource needed to comprehend how the process of othering is amplified by cinematic propaganda.

350
00:56:27.940 --> 00:56:40.330
Nazmul Arefin: how quality, size, religion, and outer nationalism is increasing increasingly becoming the markets of identity and reshaping the quality, using entertainment. Thank you. Thank you.

351
00:56:41.310 --> 00:56:42.690
Thank you very much.

352
00:56:46.220 --> 00:56:53.269
So I think that's more. If you stop sharing your screen, we should be able to go back

353
00:56:53.710 --> 00:56:56.989
to our original screen

354
00:56:57.110 --> 00:57:02.940
and go to the next presentation. which

355
00:57:03.410 --> 00:57:06.989
so we need to lower this.

356
00:57:09.540 --> 00:57:14.130
And we have one presentation

357
00:57:14.690 --> 00:57:21.750
from Bicoka Milan.

358
00:57:22.030 --> 00:57:23.210
who

359
00:57:24.170 --> 00:57:28.599
recorded her presentation.

360
00:57:31.230 --> 00:57:33.670
Yeah. that works.

361
00:57:37.670 --> 00:57:39.670
No, that doesn't work.

362
00:57:40.340 --> 00:57:44.840
it should be a pre-recorded. Do you know what

363
00:57:45.380 --> 00:57:46.750
difference?

364
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:56.140
It looks very much like the dollar point.

365
00:58:21.260 --> 00:58:23.500
No Powerpoint, sometimes.

366
00:58:26.470 --> 00:58:30.520
Yeah. But then they should. you mean that, maybe.

367
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:48.130
But I don't see any. No, that's a problem. It's nowhere in the, this is a Pdf, so no, I I know that there's been a problem because

368
00:58:48.630 --> 00:59:00.990
she just emailed me last night. She should have been her present online, but she couldn't. So there was a last-minute solution that she said she was going to upload the presentation.

369
00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:05.439
But that should have been a video which I feared would.

370
00:59:05.500 --> 00:59:09.169
Maybe it was a bit late, and it seems that it's

371
00:59:09.310 --> 00:59:12.370
oh, it's second. What is this

372
00:59:14.350 --> 00:59:15.670
preview?

373
00:59:17.600 --> 00:59:20.470
Is that the same thing? Yeah, it's the same thing.

374
00:59:23.340 --> 00:59:32.029
 I'm afraid that this will simply not work.

375
00:59:33.570 --> 00:59:40.080
in which case I regret that I kept the time for all of you. You could have gone on.

376
00:59:42.050 --> 00:59:46.140
Nevertheless, I think that what we do.

377
00:59:52.680 --> 00:59:54.560
Why am I not seeing

378
00:59:54.730 --> 00:59:59.679
 Because we're sharing Nasmond, are you still with us?

379
01:00:01.020 --> 01:00:02.560
Nazmul Arefin: Yeah, yeah, I'm here.

380
01:00:02.750 --> 01:00:04.029
Yeah, beautifully.

381
01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:07.409
I think we should

382
01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:11.049
overhead and and

383
01:00:11.410 --> 01:00:19.179
open up the floor for discussion, because my impression is that we will probably not sort

384
01:00:22.130 --> 01:00:27.639
if the yeah, but I would not like. And I I I would start just

385
01:00:28.730 --> 01:00:31.719
you know, engaging a bit with the presentations

386
01:00:32.090 --> 01:00:52.420
that I I so I I have 1 one question well, nasal? thanks a lot for your wonderful presentation, which you possibly may imagine touches me directly, and I'm going to get back to that in a in a second. But I have one question which really goes back to the question of ethics which touches upon

387
01:00:52.440 --> 01:01:02.580
both your presentations at the beginning, which has to do with cultural relativity. Because you were really pitching that argument yesterday. Your colleague Vincent was

388
01:01:02.780 --> 01:01:29.189
Clarence. Yeah, he he was also addressing that question of people wanting to come up and be photographed. That's my situation as well. I I work in India, and you know, being portrait is not like an issue quite the opposite. But my phone number there. My name I don't care. Right? So how should we? We stand in front of that, and in your presentation. There was also this question that I are very curious about about the cultural specificity of infographics, for instance.

389
01:01:29.210 --> 01:01:58.059
how how they change from one environment to to another. I'm I'm an anthropologist now. So so cultural relativity is the first question that I cling to. when when when I I need to pick up a discussion. Could I ask you both to reflect a bit on that? I mean whether these questions they they are, they can't be generalized. Right? That that's my question. They are very specific. They depend on where we are acting, in what kind of.

390
01:01:58.410 --> 01:02:03.159
with the risk of generalizing upon that as well, but I don't know if if

391
01:02:03.250 --> 01:02:16.330
one of you would like to start it up, and it would be nice if we do it here in front of this. computer. So nasal can also see us and the other participants as well that we don't see. But there are, I suppose, are the participants.

392
01:02:16.640 --> 01:02:19.169
I don't know who off you to

393
01:02:25.730 --> 01:02:34.759
 but I think in our society I mean it's the Asian society.

394
01:02:35.650 --> 01:02:37.159
the scented fake

395
01:02:37.270 --> 01:02:45.850
approach to persuade people. is something new. in fact, so

396
01:02:45.970 --> 01:02:50.690
especially for those things invisible to human eyes.

397
01:02:50.830 --> 01:02:54.080
We need other approaches

398
01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:57.070
to make them real.

399
01:02:57.570 --> 01:03:13.320
 a special reef viruses, as you may know that it has been proved by electronic, the microscopic devices to identify its existence.

400
01:03:13.880 --> 01:03:14.890
But

401
01:03:15.370 --> 01:03:30.060
in Asia country and Chinese society Korean society. I I don't mention the Japanese study may be quite different. But for us Under the influence of a

402
01:03:30.240 --> 01:03:33.930
Chinese Confucius, television

403
01:03:34.240 --> 01:03:38.900
we need more some more

404
01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:41.710
proof from

405
01:03:41.750 --> 01:03:45.900
our I mean the social connection.

406
01:03:45.980 --> 01:03:52.589
The social association is more important to persuade people

407
01:03:52.780 --> 01:03:54.930
to accept something new.

408
01:03:55.320 --> 01:04:05.859
So if we want to. ask maybe Chinese people to accept the destination or to well facial mask

409
01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:13.450
to protect themselves from the air pollution. It's not the sufficient

410
01:04:13.640 --> 01:04:17.130
to just give them scientific proof.

411
01:04:17.970 --> 01:04:20.889
because that's quite far away

412
01:04:21.050 --> 01:04:25.759
from their everyday life. The best way

413
01:04:25.970 --> 01:04:39.560
to put them in the real situation they can contact with their friends, their families, they something they someone they know. And

414
01:04:39.570 --> 01:04:42.340
the others tell them, yeah, it's real.

415
01:04:43.010 --> 01:04:45.870
And that could be more

416
01:04:46.070 --> 01:04:51.869
realistic thing just scientific proof. That is what I should

417
01:04:52.680 --> 01:04:58.159
in the pictures. If you just show that that the strength of the virus

418
01:04:58.350 --> 01:05:05.829
and that distribution in the in the world as a whole. It's not a sufficient.

419
01:05:06.410 --> 01:05:18.590
And also, for example, in in semiconductor production. it's quite different from the the protection of our our house. It's different way. It's just for production.

420
01:05:18.960 --> 01:05:26.659
But you can see now, even in Taiwan. the technology of semiconductor production has become something protective

421
01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:37.559
because this island has advanced technology. It's a very important critical to the whole world.

422
01:05:37.900 --> 01:05:42.219
So it becomes something. the technology obscurity.

423
01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:51.980
not just production. So that's in my opinion there. But if you want to persuade people to to accept

424
01:05:52.060 --> 01:05:57.850
their government. locate a lot of money, and in this industry

425
01:05:57.860 --> 01:06:04.079
you have something else, not just the the the productivity of the products.

426
01:06:04.260 --> 01:06:17.039
but other functions rather than scientific and anti that so so I think rationality are very important in modern society, even in East Asia as the Seventys.

427
01:06:17.330 --> 01:06:21.809
but something else from visuality.

428
01:06:22.040 --> 01:06:27.639
from what we see. what we touch, what we learned.

429
01:06:27.700 --> 01:06:28.990
from ours.

430
01:06:29.150 --> 01:06:36.299
it's also as well, important there. So I'm I think it's very important for us to

431
01:06:36.410 --> 01:06:47.849
the the sociologist to to understand. And it's quite different between different kind of society, and especially when you know sociology is

432
01:06:48.110 --> 01:06:52.090
a burning and light and lighting.

433
01:06:52.160 --> 01:06:56.210
and the late nineteenth century

434
01:06:56.710 --> 01:06:59.469
and the wisdom of it.

435
01:06:59.480 --> 01:07:02.750
The East Asian society is much

436
01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:14.700
far away long, long ago. So I think we should maybe put some elements of the is the Asian wisdom

437
01:07:14.810 --> 01:07:32.179
in nowadays what we call the post modern or the 20 first century sociology, and may give us something alternative to stop or to understand what we encounter nowadays a lot of

438
01:07:32.390 --> 01:07:33.890
mysterious

439
01:07:33.980 --> 01:07:46.269
phenomena that we could not understand.

440
01:07:48.640 --> 01:08:00.780
Well, I like to think I'm part anthropologist. So I I I'm happy to talk about about cultural relativity. I think. what comes to mind when you mention, that is, that

441
01:08:01.190 --> 01:08:12.110
I did an earlier project that I never published anything from. I was in Maysat, Thailand, doing an interview project with Burmese refugees. and

442
01:08:12.600 --> 01:08:30.639
I had my camera. Of course I was photographing just because that's why we do. And I noticed that when I was in public spaces. but there were probably people that were there illegally. As soon as they saw my camera they very politely would just turn their back.

443
01:08:31.080 --> 01:08:33.690
so they weren't going to confront me.

444
01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:37.520
They knew it was dangerous. I didn't. I'm just this

445
01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:49.190
person here trying to capture this marketplace on the border, and so, having that in the back of my head at all times. How do people in different cultures

446
01:08:49.290 --> 01:08:55.269
negotiate whether they're going to allow you to make a portrait?

447
01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:56.560
And

448
01:08:56.710 --> 01:09:08.479
that was so opposite to what I found in Kakuma that everybody was just joyous and wanted to be seen in a way. And I think that's probably why, it's

449
01:09:08.700 --> 01:09:11.429
it's challenging for me. Because

450
01:09:11.610 --> 01:09:20.619
I don't have an answer for that. And it really like you say, it's very specific to the different contexts, and whether somebody's in an illegal situation.

451
01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:26.650
 yeah, it's very

452
01:09:26.870 --> 01:09:34.820
screen with the moments that we know of it. And how do you translate that into a film. I would like to agree with you.

453
01:09:36.010 --> 01:09:44.689
But back to cultural relativity, my interpretation of your consent may not be your interpretation.

454
01:09:45.010 --> 01:09:55.739
You might be consenting to letting some strange woman walk by with a camera and take your picture. You don't know. I'm going to publish it someplace and label you as this theme, or whatever.

455
01:09:55.910 --> 01:10:07.670
Yes, I don't know. It's just. It's very complicated. So I'd like to think I'm intuitive, empathetic, all of that. But I realize there's power, differentials as well as cultural differences. So yeah, but it's fascinating.

456
01:10:07.790 --> 01:10:26.810
It's important. I mean, we've been having a lot of these discussions now over the years. And and the problem is that the reduction to forms still doesn't guarantee to an ethical processing of our of our material. Do you mind me asking a question to to Nasmo before I bring you in.

457
01:10:26.840 --> 01:10:36.449
Because I would like to go back to this. But, Nasmond, that that was brilliant to listen to you talking, and of course these are debates that I I've been following quite a bit.

458
01:10:36.550 --> 01:10:50.359
And and you said quite rightly, you know the the the Kashmiri question is not Kashmiri at all. It's actually about something else, but it's been used. Kashmir is always quote unquote, easy to use in order to create that kind of

459
01:10:50.480 --> 01:11:11.390
polarization. But what I find interesting is that the 2 bombs that have exploded in cinema are at the extremes of India, right? Kerala. And so it's also like 2 communities that are like more marginalized from a centralized discourse and and and case of Carol, also kind of immune to to Hindi as a language, and so on, and so forth.

460
01:11:11.530 --> 01:11:37.880
Do you see a mapping of the question? Do you see? A kind of a possibility that you know you have these debates positioned in these extreme parts, and it's like breaking out the ends and kind of trying to centralize the discourse in a way. Do you see kind of design of that sort. Sorry. Maybe this is a bit of an intra- Indian question, but I wanted to ask you about that, because something that I've been pondering over myself.

461
01:11:38.320 --> 01:11:48.779
Nazmul Arefin: Yeah, I I think it's a very, very important and excellent question to be. Honestly, I I, when actually I was trying to analyze 6 cinemas.

462
01:11:48.810 --> 01:11:58.640
Nazmul Arefin: But since it's a very short period of time that I knew that I have to finish it by 15, or maybe 12, or to 15 min. So I took only 2 movies.

463
01:11:59.080 --> 01:12:13.960
Nazmul Arefin: I realized when I was analyzing the cinemas that I mean me it. The Inc. Government's people are trying to select the areas, the areas which are very much

464
01:12:14.770 --> 01:12:20.839
Nazmul Arefin: not possible to penetrate by the basically government. For example.

465
01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:25.780
Nazmul Arefin: Kerala realize, I mean, they are. I mean they are trying from.

466
01:12:25.950 --> 01:12:38.860
Nazmul Arefin: I think, from decades, and they cannot do anything on in terms of getting votes and everything. So yeah, I mean, even the kernel T. the Cm. Claim that this movie was made

467
01:12:38.990 --> 01:12:44.770
Nazmul Arefin: to defame the State. The Carolina State itself. That okay, I mean the character of the Government

468
01:12:44.830 --> 01:12:49.760
Nazmul Arefin: needs at the Government to to say

469
01:12:49.990 --> 01:12:55.129
Nazmul Arefin: so called. I mean the centralized or majority of Hindu people, because

470
01:12:55.370 --> 01:12:56.510
Nazmul Arefin: I mean the

471
01:12:57.290 --> 01:12:59.560
Nazmul Arefin: that the Communist

472
01:12:59.930 --> 01:13:03.409
Kerala Government cannot save the future of the

473
01:13:04.070 --> 01:13:11.770
Nazmul Arefin: India. and on, if you look at the Kashmir, Kashmir is the I mean is another. I think, political, correct.

474
01:13:11.810 --> 01:13:19.800
Nazmul Arefin: since 1,947. I'm from Bangladesh. I know that. How  when.

475
01:13:20.490 --> 01:13:21.660
Nazmul Arefin: after

476
01:13:21.940 --> 01:13:33.269
Nazmul Arefin: 200 years, when British people, I mean the after the colonization of 200 years. They. the left, or the whole Indian

477
01:13:33.420 --> 01:13:44.710
Nazmul Arefin: the Indian subcontinent they just derogated. I think it it. It was just abruptly the design. The Bangladesh, Pakistan, and India and Kashmir was

478
01:13:45.620 --> 01:14:01.600
Nazmul Arefin: no way it was, I mean, no people looked at the Kashmiri problems that way. There. It is an Indian problem or Pakistani problem, because the Pakistani that actually wanted their new State, a state of their own.

479
01:14:01.860 --> 01:14:15.399
Nazmul Arefin: So Pakistani, the government, always try to manipulate the Kashmir people, Indian people, I mean, Indian Government also did the same. And that's why I realized that the in the whole cinema

480
01:14:16.060 --> 01:14:21.110
Nazmul Arefin: this and I actually try to toward us, orchestrate or

481
01:14:21.460 --> 01:14:35.459
Nazmul Arefin: spring the the the customer people as Pakistani people. And there is a big lie, absolutely wonderful where we could go on. We should go on. We could go. We go on somewhere else

482
01:14:35.500 --> 01:14:40.030
this. Anyone would anyone like to

483
01:14:40.120 --> 01:14:42.299
ask a question?

484
01:14:42.640 --> 01:14:47.530
Hop in Caroline? Can you pop over here.

485
01:14:51.050 --> 01:14:56.290
All right. Thanks everyone for your talks. Maybe it's just

486
01:14:56.460 --> 01:15:05.360
so it's just nice to. So okay? And then you can see. oh, did someone post a question just now on the chat.

487
01:15:06.220 --> 01:15:07.930
Do you want to do that first?

488
01:15:08.810 --> 01:15:12.190
But the

489
01:15:12.320 --> 01:15:13.869
you have to be

490
01:15:24.330 --> 01:15:27.900
okay. we

491
01:15:28.450 --> 01:15:29.240
those

492
01:15:29.470 --> 01:15:33.360
we take your question, Caroline, and then we go over to

493
01:15:33.550 --> 01:15:34.440
you.

494
01:15:36.370 --> 01:15:37.260
Well, and

495
01:15:37.900 --> 01:15:41.260
I guess I have a question for each person. But

496
01:15:41.280 --> 01:15:48.160
nasmal. The films that you were discussing are not documentaries right?

497
01:15:51.650 --> 01:15:56.299
I mean, not documentary. Yeah, you're right. Oh, they're not documentaries.

498
01:15:56.350 --> 01:16:03.460
So essentially, there's a long tradition in film studies and in media studies.

499
01:16:03.490 --> 01:16:15.599
 also, probably media sociology of looking at the kind of tropes that these films use. I mean, if there's a tradition of an Us. Versus them.

500
01:16:15.690 --> 01:16:17.690
it's it's Hollywood

501
01:16:17.840 --> 01:16:28.170
Hollywood has created these tropes, and there's a there's a there's a documentary by the Media Education Foundation, called real bad Arabs

502
01:16:28.200 --> 01:16:36.469
spelled r eel. Ok, so that that breaks it down. I think that for me the interesting thing is the question of

503
01:16:37.670 --> 01:16:47.849
not the question of the propaganda and the film analysis. But the question of, why would a Prime Minister take a fictional story

504
01:16:48.010 --> 01:16:53.410
and presented as true like, how can someone get confused between a movie

505
01:16:53.800 --> 01:17:00.399
and a history? Right? Because the answer for him saying that, wouldn't it just be?

506
01:17:00.700 --> 01:17:02.220
It's just a movie.

507
01:17:02.300 --> 01:17:07.080
right? So so this is kind of where I'm going with that.

508
01:17:07.180 --> 01:17:11.379
And and my question for for Dr. Chen is

509
01:17:12.080 --> 01:17:17.720
thinking about thick governmentality and the way you're proposing the model.

510
01:17:17.810 --> 01:17:28.790
Do you have a sort of logic of the relationships between the different levels and the sort of calibration of how governmentality happens

511
01:17:28.870 --> 01:17:40.029
differently visually there. And a second part to that is, you know, the infographic was really popular in the West, but it didn't necessarily convince people to be safe.

512
01:17:40.350 --> 01:17:47.030
I think that the things that you're saying that worked for populations in Taiwan also worked for populations

513
01:17:47.290 --> 01:17:53.829
in the West, so that would be a nuance there. And sorry. I'm just like piling up the questions.

514
01:17:53.880 --> 01:17:56.820
Question for Zavier. If there's time like you don't have to.

515
01:17:57.230 --> 01:17:58.430
But

516
01:17:58.490 --> 01:18:11.799
you know I'm I'm troubled sometimes when, especially with the images of vulnerable children, because I always think that if you locate people in a time and space that there are always predatory

517
01:18:11.980 --> 01:18:20.379
sort of forces around that'll be like, oh, it could be anything like even organ harvesters, it'd be like, oh, there are young, healthy looking children.

518
01:18:20.530 --> 01:18:25.869
that kind of thing, and they'll know where to find them. So that kind of thing is always. Maybe I'm paranoid.

519
01:18:25.950 --> 01:18:32.349
But it is really not a question of taking the photo. It's what happens to the photo after

520
01:18:32.770 --> 01:18:43.280
and in terms of working with the adults. I wonder if you would consider sort of an ethical balance where, after you take the photo? Then they take your photo.

521
01:18:46.440 --> 01:18:57.329
I think. No, no, I think Nasmo, was the first question, and later, shall we at last?

522
01:18:57.350 --> 01:18:59.090
It's a lot of it's

523
01:18:59.540 --> 01:19:04.630
so

524
01:19:09.720 --> 01:19:19.700
Nazmul Arefin: I I just I would like to. I mean, share my screen again. If you see the the the 2 posters, it says that it's never too late to learn the truth.

525
01:19:19.730 --> 01:19:29.210
Nazmul Arefin: And look at that another poster, that uncovering the truth that was get hidden. The problem is, these 2 movies repeatedly

526
01:19:29.220 --> 01:19:33.610
Nazmul Arefin: in their promotion and everything they. the that

527
01:19:34.010 --> 01:19:39.039
Nazmul Arefin: these movies are not, I mean fiction. But they took the

528
01:19:39.090 --> 01:19:59.760
Nazmul Arefin: artistic liberty, but it actually based on 2 facts and facts. And that's the problem. Actually, that's why the media and and it's It causes huge political tension among the opposition on income and government. And that's the problem, I guess.

529
01:19:59.990 --> 01:20:05.799
Nazmul Arefin: I really don't know. It's it was basically a matter of politics. And as

530
01:20:06.400 --> 01:20:14.400
Nazmul Arefin:  this year person said that in Kerala this movie was released just before few days before the

531
01:20:14.630 --> 01:20:29.990
Nazmul Arefin: the election, and it was made for to to attract vote banks as well. So that's the problem. I mean, when the movies are basically used for political propaganda that is very, very problematic. And

532
01:20:30.040 --> 01:20:31.240
Nazmul Arefin: on it.

533
01:20:31.330 --> 01:20:43.690
Nazmul Arefin: and sociologists, anthropologist and all the social scientists should think about the ethics of visual data and cinematic data more seriously now, I guess.

534
01:20:43.820 --> 01:20:46.789
Nazmul Arefin: because, in the time of

535
01:20:46.970 --> 01:20:52.709
Nazmul Arefin: right wing populism cinema is now. I think it it is. It has been used

536
01:20:52.820 --> 01:20:55.909
Nazmul Arefin: in a new Nazi way, I guess.

537
01:20:57.710 --> 01:20:58.550
And

538
01:20:59.580 --> 01:21:18.079
again we could go on on that bit, because I think it's also very specific to to South Asian, to India, especially also the the incredible power, right? Nasmo, that that cinema has also the propagation. It has the the way it's broken down into video clips. And to objects, photos that go into

539
01:21:18.120 --> 01:21:26.900
it's everywhere. So it it has like a different penetrability than Hollywood cinema, despite building on the same kind of polarizations. But that's a super question change.

540
01:21:29.920 --> 01:21:36.799
Thank you for your crescent. It's very interesting. In fact, I don't have a enough time to to explain

541
01:21:36.900 --> 01:21:47.180
my model. What I call a sick government priority in that is, a multi-layer. The structure and

542
01:21:47.640 --> 01:21:55.200
the rationality or irrationality between layers may sometimes in conflict.

543
01:21:55.540 --> 01:22:00.850
but as a result. They constituted the whore

544
01:22:01.010 --> 01:22:16.369
a governmentality, for example. I. I can take an example in in Taiwan when the central government mad! A a policy for people to to protect themselves.

545
01:22:16.670 --> 01:22:22.430
The local government may have some response to to that.

546
01:22:22.730 --> 01:22:25.900
but I modified some something.

547
01:22:26.410 --> 01:22:29.660
and for the community they have their own

548
01:22:30.050 --> 01:22:36.530
ways to to follow the central government and the local governments

549
01:22:37.150 --> 01:22:41.429
and the family, the family member. They have their own way.

550
01:22:41.600 --> 01:22:49.229
but sometimes their actions may conflict each other. but as a result

551
01:22:49.670 --> 01:22:52.870
the virus was prevented.

552
01:22:53.180 --> 01:23:12.059
So this is what I called an everyday life sick government priority, and sometimes they they get the information from from their neighborhoods, from their friends, from other Cities! And so so! So! It's very complicated.

553
01:23:12.110 --> 01:23:15.570
and not just the one layer, the the the

554
01:23:15.630 --> 01:23:23.810
just one rationality. There are a lot of different kind of information and different kind of reasons to

555
01:23:24.090 --> 01:23:31.530
to make the actions reasonable, I mean, reasonable, but necessarily regional.

556
01:23:31.560 --> 01:23:37.680
That is what I call the thick governmentality. So there's something in between layers

557
01:23:37.820 --> 01:23:47.430
but that are not really coherent. There may be concrete. As a result, they they solve the problem of a security.

558
01:23:47.670 --> 01:23:49.379
And also

559
01:23:49.830 --> 01:23:53.409
when I propose this model, I

560
01:23:53.890 --> 01:24:01.360
I think it's just an ideal type. It means that maybe in East Asia society is stronger.

561
01:24:01.680 --> 01:24:06.440
most significant as compared with Western society.

562
01:24:06.580 --> 01:24:13.520
But not necessarily that, as I know. Yeah, even in in in the Us. When triumph

563
01:24:14.650 --> 01:24:15.790
announced.

564
01:24:15.900 --> 01:24:20.720
the same as the useless, a lot of people, a sabot.

565
01:24:21.360 --> 01:24:25.949
It's something like a belief it like the tribal tradition.

566
01:24:25.980 --> 01:24:27.340
So

567
01:24:27.770 --> 01:24:36.149
as also that the question they did, if the video or the visual way are more real. Yes, sometimes

568
01:24:36.420 --> 01:24:38.320
it depends on who

569
01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:48.600
and what the content who met the video who met the visual proof, and how it

570
01:24:48.620 --> 01:24:57.500
diffuse among the society. So, for example, last 9, when I left in the Chinatown.

571
01:24:57.530 --> 01:25:14.539
there are a lot of restaurants line up a lot of clients, and the I observed that it's almost all. Oh, I I mean the Oriental people there from Thailand, Taiwan, China, or or even Colin.

572
01:25:14.610 --> 01:25:18.219
but really the so called white people.

573
01:25:18.740 --> 01:25:23.460
I mean, there's something different. It depends on the content. It's a.

574
01:25:23.630 --> 01:25:31.669
It's a Chinese food. It's a tight food, something like that. And we may have a different way of

575
01:25:31.800 --> 01:25:33.190
a reaction

576
01:25:33.340 --> 01:25:40.099
to that subject. So it depends on what the subject and the who produce

577
01:25:40.680 --> 01:25:56.760
the picture, the be visual, or something like that. So so it's not necessary. But back to my my proposition as it like, just like a ideal type you might use it to. It's been something but a combination. It's not that pure.

578
01:25:56.820 --> 01:26:10.760
You cannot say that anything of everything in the essay after is Asia sure must be like that. No, not necessarily. It depends. And but for something scientific, we may

579
01:26:10.950 --> 01:26:15.980
some more conservative. I think this is my opinion. Thank you.

580
01:26:21.730 --> 01:26:25.530
Excellent questions. Thank you.

581
01:26:25.620 --> 01:26:39.649
I think I'm I'm taken with 2 points that you made first of is that you tried to pose a solution which I love. But to go start with the paranoia I agree, I think.

582
01:26:40.180 --> 01:27:00.489
that it's best to air on the side of paranoia when photographing others, because, as you say, there are so many different perspectives. I hadn't even thought of organs harvesting that hadn't even occurred to me. I have not shown these images outside of this context except One

583
01:27:00.490 --> 01:27:14.160
Group of images of the kids was was included in a museum catalog in the context of a lot of other things. I was very nervous when they asked us to upload everything to the cloud, because you never know.

584
01:27:14.280 --> 01:27:24.830
 So I agree with paranoia. I agree with being very careful. I don't know exactly how to negotiate that to my satisfaction.

585
01:27:24.990 --> 01:27:51.470
but I like the idea of trying to propose a solution. here's some things I've tried so well. I was in Kakuma. I did a couple other projects that did have consent forms, and one was working with women there who were doing female empowerment for adolescents, and I took a bunch of pictures. They brought their kids. They wanted family pictures. I did all of this, and I wanted to make prints and send them to them.

586
01:27:51.990 --> 01:28:02.650
And there's actually no real way to do that to people in a refugee camp getting male to them was almost impossible, so I wasn't able to do that

587
01:28:02.770 --> 01:28:06.899
in terms of letting the people in the market. Take a picture of me.

588
01:28:07.330 --> 01:28:13.479
That's where power and privilege come into play, because most of them did not have smartphones.

589
01:28:14.260 --> 01:28:18.440
So that wasn't really a capability, but I will say, and

590
01:28:19.300 --> 01:28:42.480
in a different time in space. I was in India and had the opposite role. People would come up and asked to take pictures with me. I don't know if it was the blonde hair they'd ask me to hold their baby. Take a picture. I have no idea where these pictures are going to go. But I said, Yes, as kind of an you know, as a social scientist that does this to other people. So I

591
01:28:43.180 --> 01:28:52.880
you know I don't know. I try to equal it out. I guess best I can, but I don't have an answer. I really don't. And I think. going back to this process of aesis.

592
01:28:54.130 --> 01:29:03.600
So thank you. Jet lag is really hitting now that it's very hard to predict

593
01:29:03.880 --> 01:29:07.150
so. But you raise really good points. Thank you.

594
01:29:08.340 --> 01:29:19.200
 I was thinking, we we have a a question, but I think we kind of been going around that. but it's it's really about the the

595
01:29:19.240 --> 01:29:22.989
impactfulness of all the visuals.

596
01:29:23.060 --> 01:29:32.529
Right? I mean, I think, n you, you tackle that from the point of view, I mean, that's your the object of your study to really explore the impactfulness of

597
01:29:32.730 --> 01:29:55.460
of that kind of imagery. I mean properly anti Muslim imagery. But the question is reversed in the case of to view. I mean, it's how to use. Well, of course, Jen is also like more a material that you look at. But you when you produce a material. But I think that's a question also, Caroline was addressing in a way I mean, it's also like

598
01:29:56.210 --> 01:30:11.650
these images. When they travel, they travel off. But also the the question of the cloud is a concrete one. But same time you can control a cloud you just have to use, avoid commercial clouds. You just should not store anything on smartphones, but go like on university clouds, and so on and so forth.

599
01:30:12.790 --> 01:30:14.709
Yeah, that's that. Yeah.

600
01:30:14.940 --> 01:30:20.300
who? Who? Who do you trust and who not? Yeah, yeah.

601
01:30:20.350 --> 01:30:38.660
But but I wanted to. I please feel free. I would just wanted to add a kind of a a little twist, also to to Mikhail's question, and perhaps just take it to a different direction. Chen, you you mentioned like like confusion perspectives

602
01:30:38.660 --> 01:30:54.830
on that. Why do you revert to Foucault? I mean this. This is really a question that I'm I'm really bothered by. Let me just give it a a short introduction when I have to write the curriculum in times of decolonization. Now this has become such a powerful slogan

603
01:30:55.120 --> 01:31:05.399
that at times obfuscates the actual content of this. So we put the Nasmo Gayatri spie back, fantastic thinker, but she is a Western scholar

604
01:31:05.810 --> 01:31:18.409
in in all ways. The way you put theatris. BA, can you use that as a symbol that your curriculum is is like? to say, diverse. I I don't buy into that. It's very da, and it right? So

605
01:31:18.560 --> 01:31:32.470
very often we have the difficulty that a lot of the knowledge we could revert to in order to properly decolonize our thinking is not written in the shape of articles. Books is like indigenous knowledge. It lies in the crafts right? So

606
01:31:32.680 --> 01:31:36.509
why going back to Foucault, not trying to develop something around

607
01:31:36.860 --> 01:31:59.250
Confucius. Is there a possibility to do that? Okay, can you spin a bit further on that? And I was thinking as well as well? Is there a way out of it from the canons of Classical film Studies, which is where you are going to fall into. Right? K, can we just give it a twist. I really think, outside of the box. I I think we need that kind of movement out of

608
01:31:59.470 --> 01:32:03.590
how to say a space of reproduction of of theoretical

609
01:32:03.600 --> 01:32:15.710
teams that we already tackle. But given that you mentioned it, maybe. Can you just expand on what you mean by a Confucian model, and how that could also be

610
01:32:15.890 --> 01:32:17.580
theory properly

611
01:32:18.520 --> 01:32:29.790
so, I mean, it's probably very difficult to speculate on. But nevertheless, it's what. Yeah. When I mentioned the Confucius tradition

612
01:32:29.960 --> 01:32:41.210
a little bit exaggerated. But but still, if you compared with the tradition, I mean the sociology, tradition.

613
01:32:41.420 --> 01:32:47.070
 we have the we so called the organizational

614
01:32:47.100 --> 01:32:51.760
a model that's very important, especially from Max Weber.

615
01:32:51.900 --> 01:32:55.489
a space on the rationality.

616
01:32:55.710 --> 01:33:04.409
But the Confucius model is based on family. It's from family to the county

617
01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:10.519
to the the local region and to the empire

618
01:33:11.440 --> 01:33:17.400
and the way of thinking. The society is just in opposite.

619
01:33:18.120 --> 01:33:22.230
in Western society the sociology is from outside.

620
01:33:22.390 --> 01:33:26.120
so we have the society advanced in in advance.

621
01:33:26.180 --> 01:33:34.949
So we keep something that is a society and an individual. So individual comes from the society.

622
01:33:35.470 --> 01:33:38.450
find confessions of thinking.

623
01:33:38.700 --> 01:33:48.420
There's no individual, just a person, each person and the person as well connected with the family.

624
01:33:49.230 --> 01:33:55.179
and if they don't have anything to do with the Empire.

625
01:33:55.210 --> 01:33:59.809
it can be very far away from it. So there's no society.

626
01:34:01.090 --> 01:34:06.709
So when I talk about the the sick government, how they? It means that

627
01:34:07.770 --> 01:34:13.070
the decision maker. They are prison. Diana individual.

628
01:34:14.330 --> 01:34:19.070
they are discrete, one, they are connected.

629
01:34:19.200 --> 01:34:25.799
I strongly waste their family, their friends, and that is the major source of information.

630
01:34:26.500 --> 01:34:36.689
and when governments say something, it's a little bit far away from us. We just trust our friends. our family.

631
01:34:36.860 --> 01:34:58.669
So I I that's what I say. The Confucius traditions. Okay, no. Michelle for call. Yeah. I I I mean for cool. His thoughts has come from the I mean the judges

632
01:34:58.680 --> 01:34:59.830
tradition.

633
01:34:59.840 --> 01:35:14.570
so as far as in the beginning, as the sovereignty, you know, pasture, pastoral power, identity, so sovereignty, power, and finally the the new Liberalism society.

634
01:35:14.730 --> 01:35:22.310
So the governmentality. The vibrational base of the modern government is not

635
01:35:22.400 --> 01:35:26.989
 They are all of a sudden

636
01:35:27.030 --> 01:35:39.629
it about long history. So Michelle Ferko went when he talked about the governmentity. I think his major concern is not the modern society, but

637
01:35:39.810 --> 01:35:45.690
they also said the ancient society. She wants to make a comparison in between.

638
01:35:46.540 --> 01:36:02.850
So that is why I think I'm reasonable to to compare the modern Western society style with the ancient society, no matter as a Western or Eastern, but but always it's not our modern society.

639
01:36:02.980 --> 01:36:07.280
That's why I make the combination. Yeah.

640
01:36:08.080 --> 01:36:14.819
do you want to have a nice move, or you have any reflections on that

641
01:36:15.020 --> 01:36:18.170
in your position, I mean, it was really a question for you. But

642
01:36:20.740 --> 01:36:22.530
Nazmul Arefin: yeah, I do it.

643
01:36:23.040 --> 01:36:30.739
Nazmul Arefin: No, no, go ahead. I do agree with you. I I always thought that. How to decolonize the

644
01:36:32.890 --> 01:36:41.869
Nazmul Arefin: does the established knowledge. because it's not easy to be honest. I mean to sail

645
01:36:42.760 --> 01:36:46.280
Nazmul Arefin: So, continuing to knowledge, I mean, since

646
01:36:46.310 --> 01:36:52.280
Nazmul Arefin: starting. Ph. D. The University of Bulwar to sometimes I really really go struggle to.

647
01:36:52.640 --> 01:37:07.560
Nazmul Arefin: to communicate or sell my reasons elements like here. I'm I'm very, very glad that I mean that always here some I mean the in this room. There are a couple of people who already know about

648
01:37:07.800 --> 01:37:14.339
Nazmul Arefin: about that the Indian politics. Otherwise, I mean, I was thinking, in

649
01:37:14.750 --> 01:37:19.130
Nazmul Arefin: in connecting with other 3, our presentation is today that

650
01:37:19.720 --> 01:37:39.380
Nazmul Arefin: whether people could relate what I would like to say. And that is that is the real problem. What I really feel. I mean, people talk about Anthropocene, but I always I I like to say that I mean in knowledge system. There is a European scene as well, or or I can say

651
01:37:39.750 --> 01:37:55.789
Nazmul Arefin: you, I mean Western sin. So it is. It is very, very difficult to decode or decolonize this oyster in the knowledge system. But I am I, I am I. I do agree with you that it is. It is not very ideal idea. I mean

652
01:37:55.860 --> 01:37:57.780
Nazmul Arefin: to go our

653
01:37:58.510 --> 01:38:25.990
Nazmul Arefin: I mean, ponder some some kind of questions that is not relevant to Western thinkers. But, for example, in the inbox, Mik, I was a very important question that do you consider visual or audio visual metrics, material, capable of being more real than reality to some. And the problem is, if I want to answer this kind of question, even, I try to read that what

654
01:38:26.060 --> 01:38:27.819
Nazmul Arefin: the volume Cinema

655
01:38:28.660 --> 01:38:35.269
Nazmul Arefin: has an educated power on the Psyche of Bangladesh and Indian people.

656
01:38:35.750 --> 01:38:45.669
Nazmul Arefin: But the problem is, when I do not refer, like, I'm people like Jake or Laka, or someone like very well known to the knowledge system.

657
01:38:45.700 --> 01:38:59.629
Nazmul Arefin: People don't buy it. And that is a real challenge. I really went through. I know that. it's a challenge. It's an ongoing challenge challenge. But we need to form or establish our own theory. Your yeah.

658
01:38:59.690 --> 01:39:02.320
Nazmul Arefin: it's it's not easy. But we have to do it yet.

659
01:39:04.270 --> 01:39:22.020
Yeah, it's it's a it's a big question, but it's it's I mean to me. It's really the the key of the whole decolonizing debate that we just scratch on the surface of the real thing. But again, decolonizing the canon of a cinema, we were in Antwerp involved with that look.

660
01:39:22.280 --> 01:39:39.059
But the problem is, the cannon is not what you've put in the canon. It's the presence of the canon at the cinema. Right? So then, so it's it's really like a destructuring that should take a a couple of steps further back. Do we? Do we have any other questions. please.

661
01:39:45.890 --> 01:39:50.569
I'm very new, actually, to the use of visual materials.

662
01:39:50.690 --> 01:39:52.060
And

663
01:39:52.780 --> 01:40:05.230
I think it's a question which is like building up, maybe on a different aspect that we Dutch from cultural loyal activism, ethics. What I'm actually interested is more on the question of the use.

664
01:40:05.250 --> 01:40:10.769
We I mean the way we use an interpret. I see this visual data.

665
01:40:12.330 --> 01:40:25.470
the way I'm actually getting out of this question so far is actually to use it as a material for effective interviews where I'm actually getting actually participants actually to

666
01:40:25.480 --> 01:40:45.739
really like, reflect and build actually this course on the visual data that I might use also as actually visual data. But it's really like for me, a big question on how how much do we build up on, for example, the facial expressions that we might actually recognize from actually our own goods

667
01:40:46.010 --> 01:40:50.900
as erection of surprise or addition.

668
01:40:51.200 --> 01:40:58.129
But I mean, how much is it? I mean. yeah, how much are we building up? Actually from our own codes?

669
01:40:58.510 --> 01:41:13.219
So yeah, just opening this this this question, please bear with me if it's very, very naive. I'm very new, actually to to this year. So just actually curious to to know, actually, from people actually practicing.

670
01:41:13.520 --> 01:41:16.410
Thank you.

671
01:41:16.900 --> 01:41:18.689
My best shot.

672
01:41:20.370 --> 01:41:34.720
I think you're raising some interesting possibilities for yourself, and I hope you continue down this road. You're talking a little bit about photo elicitation interviews which there's a long history and is very fun to do

673
01:41:35.030 --> 01:41:46.130
 and also the point back to cultural relativity, and how we are reading each other is fascinating and would make a great basis for a study.

674
01:41:46.150 --> 01:41:50.060
I don't know that there has been

675
01:41:50.250 --> 01:42:11.810
a real cross-cultural investigation of reading faces. You know there's that whole psychological literature that they're doing, but I don't know that it's been done cross-culturally yet, which would be fascinating to see, I would think yes, that there probably is a lot of difference. But yes, how do we know which code we are using? So

676
01:42:12.331 --> 01:42:22.759
you might use intermediate or reliability with multiple people analyzing the same image would be one way to address that.

677
01:42:23.070 --> 01:42:23.860
But

678
01:42:24.150 --> 01:42:29.189
Caroline has a good idea.

679
01:42:29.750 --> 01:42:35.719
Yes, and it does a full breakdown of people's responses to faces.

680
01:42:35.860 --> 01:42:38.889
so it might have some

681
01:42:39.580 --> 01:42:48.149
 So when I got a change of this question, it says we're working, really, that I shouldn't we.

682
01:42:48.840 --> 01:42:54.330
in reducer to our contexts and make up for each other the

683
01:42:54.670 --> 01:42:55.919
from next to.

684
01:42:56.600 --> 01:43:05.039
And I mean, it's really going back to some debates in that, in terms of music for anthropology.

685
01:43:05.440 --> 01:43:09.630
And even though there is supposed to be. This very universal action

686
01:43:09.760 --> 01:43:11.580
have facial expressions.

687
01:43:11.780 --> 01:43:19.670
what we see that when the work is actually software, and we connect actually these these nodes and so on.

688
01:43:19.700 --> 01:43:25.060
It's not happening. So we need to say that it's not so universal.

689
01:43:27.010 --> 01:43:37.239
There is. There is a I don't know what it resulted in it. Maybe Caroline can help me remember in that. But there is a project in Finland

690
01:43:37.250 --> 01:43:39.320
on faces

691
01:43:44.549 --> 01:44:05.799
they've been working on on faces from face recognition from yeah, exactly. Face recall that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But there's more than that. I mean, I I don't know how far they took it, in fact, but the idea was to really do something around around around faces. And then you have. Of course.

692
01:44:05.940 --> 01:44:11.940
I think Hans Benting has been writing about faces as the pository of

693
01:44:12.120 --> 01:44:30.209
how to say the the the whole exchange! So the the face is what makes possible the beginning of a communication, because it incorporates the reply of the other, and the expression right? So it's like an a relation of these are Hans melting for sure. But then I know, ask one, and

694
01:44:30.420 --> 01:44:40.679
they? They have so. But I know what they published the digital face. Yeah, I don't know exactly. No book for sure not. But maybe there are some articles? Just what? Maybe checking it up.

695
01:44:40.850 --> 01:44:43.370
yeah.

696
01:44:44.320 --> 01:44:47.399
Do we have any other questions?

697
01:44:48.840 --> 01:45:15.369
If not, I have 1. One more last question for you. But how? How do you And given the the the How to say the tricky nature of that question, you know, dealing with with those kind of questions me as as a white man. I really walk on top of my toes. I was wondering, you said, that your Bangladeshi by citizenship. So so how are you met by by Indian scholars, or or

698
01:45:15.560 --> 01:45:18.589
My other call is for for being Bangladeshi.

699
01:45:19.400 --> 01:45:31.089
Nazmul Arefin: I would say it's pretty much same, because we used to be one country, I mean, before 1,947. So the culture is same, for example, and West Bengal we share the same language. Even

700
01:45:31.100 --> 01:45:36.820
Nazmul Arefin: so, our critical tone is almost same. But the the thing is

701
01:45:38.660 --> 01:45:54.730
Nazmul Arefin: as you mentioned is pivot. There are so many Indian scholars who became, I would say more and more Western, after getting the Western education and everything. But who the people like for example, Amort to shame, or

702
01:45:54.730 --> 01:46:10.100
Nazmul Arefin: or people like, I mean, they're almost at Google that just died few few days back, 2 months back. I mean the people I mean, that's subordinate scholars. So I mean this kind of even even in some history. I'm seeing the Johannell Nero University.

703
01:46:10.180 --> 01:46:22.390
Nazmul Arefin: I mean. The the critical tone is almost same, and I do. I don't struggle to be honest, but the problem is, some people are too much complicated like Thisiva, I mean, sometimes we struggle. But

704
01:46:22.700 --> 01:46:32.730
Nazmul Arefin: and though Bangladeshi people are predominant. We don't mean predominantly Muslims, but Indian cultures are.

705
01:46:32.740 --> 01:46:44.380
Nazmul Arefin: I mean, as you know, that in Kerala, in South India there are some different cultures as well. But since we went through a similar kind of colonization in terms of

706
01:46:44.780 --> 01:46:49.979
Nazmul Arefin: decolonization on everything, I think we are on the same table.

707
01:46:50.360 --> 01:46:53.789
 that's interesting to him. Yeah.

708
01:46:56.710 --> 01:47:06.620
do we have any more burning questions? If not, we have practically

709
01:47:13.180 --> 01:47:28.590
Hello, I'm Vincent again. I'm just wondering, or I'm just pondering on a lot of visuality that we are missing a lot. As visual sociologists. We are missing out on many rich sociologists because of the

710
01:47:28.590 --> 01:47:53.580
politician of ethics. I think I share the same sentiment as you, Tracy, just like in the Philippines. Whenever they see cameras, me holding a camera, they want to take a picture. Oh, here, take a picture of me like some sort of movement. I think my question is like, maybe this is a special look into visual research in the global South.

711
01:47:53.580 --> 01:47:59.430
Maybe it's just a phenomenon of taking pictures in the global South perspective.

712
01:47:59.430 --> 01:48:27.909
I was in the session early earlier about algorithms and air generated photos. I was just thinking or imagining that maybe there is some way of going around the ethics. Just AI generated photos of visual representations, so we can. miss out the identities of people, and I'm just imagining of a lot of things right now. So just a point of reflection. Thank you.

713
01:48:31.940 --> 01:48:46.090
Hmm! Well, we we we we could start it from there and then then go on with. That's a absolutely a good, a good point, a tricky one. I think it's never a matter of going around that. I mean, I think it's just how we define it. It takes our

714
01:48:46.200 --> 01:48:47.190
and

715
01:48:47.990 --> 01:48:57.480
but speak by university quite openly. They they are. It's not ethics, it's it's risk prevention, management, it's privacy law.

716
01:48:57.540 --> 01:49:00.909
There's nothing about that in those documents, really nothing.

717
01:49:00.930 --> 01:49:22.829
And then, again, you can have. So starting by asking people just sign a release form when you go out and film, it's perfectly fine legally, but you can still ruin their life right? So the question is how we define. You know I generally come up with extreme examples, saying that in in fact I consistently do something illegal by helping undocumented migrants.

718
01:49:22.830 --> 01:49:32.940
because I should declare them at the police right? But it's ethical. So revert the discussion when it comes to our work. You can do something which is perfectly legal, and that's ethically

719
01:49:33.070 --> 01:49:46.239
completely horrible. So I mean, I think, but that that to me is the real question that all the the Aaa, the American Anthropological Association, has a list of 7 points

720
01:49:46.280 --> 01:49:52.310
there were after I don't know how many years of debate Updated in 2,012,

721
01:49:52.360 --> 01:50:04.159
and it's brilliant. It's very simple. And it's those same points that you were listing up. I think if we let ourselves be guided by that, at least. You know that ethically you can defend the way in which you operate right

722
01:50:04.310 --> 01:50:05.390
legally.

723
01:50:05.800 --> 01:50:35.559
It's a whole different question. And and now we were stumbling upon in in in relation to one of our Phds. That was just completed. someone in the jury from from the Uk. Where you now have to declare changes of I mean, as an anthropologist, you were taught that you go to the field, and what happens? Happens? And you start following up. Well, they have now to get a new permit for every change of plan. Right? So you have to. If you say that you're gonna do go and do research in a community of Yoga practitioners

724
01:50:35.560 --> 01:50:56.189
in in Delhi, and and look at the the formation of a Hindu body. There, then, if you change and go to a gym. Looking at the same question. That's not okay. Then you'll have to get new permit. So it's it that that's a real problem to me that sometimes to do a bureaucracy with the, with the, with the process of neoliberalization of universities. That's

725
01:50:56.440 --> 01:51:02.210
I think it's it's more located there than in our own practice as as practitioners in the field.

726
01:51:04.980 --> 01:51:08.570
Go back him.

727
01:51:08.790 --> 01:51:11.650
But then you since you know that, then you

728
01:51:11.660 --> 01:51:13.280
minded themselves.

729
01:51:13.730 --> 01:51:30.799
Yeah, yeah, but that, but it's not always accepted. It's not, I mean, if you're too broad, then it's you have to redo it right? I mean, that's I've been bouncing back for 5 times my my ethical protocols with the University before they get approved.

730
01:51:30.910 --> 01:51:34.169
Use a word that can do many things.

731
01:51:35.470 --> 01:51:58.830
They bounce it back in our case, and I'll I'll send it to you next time and see whether you you can crack the code. Listen, thank you. Everyone. We have to wrap it up here, and pity that we miss one presentation. But I think we capitalized on the time we had by having a wonderful discussion. Thank you. Nas Moore, online.

732
01:51:58.920 --> 01:52:01.919
Dr. Chen, and everyone here. Thanks.