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I can read it. You can read this out and then just hit, stop, share, and then your first speakers can share their screen and get started. So what?

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So?

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I I think I had to do it again.

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Acknowledgment of the country. As for the protocol

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on behalf of everyone gathered. I pay respect to the spirit of the country. Here in Nam. where we are meeting.

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I acknowledged the past and present, cool and Nason, who wouldn't try way as the servering people here, the cultural knowledge holder who maintain and promote the aboriginal law, custom, and custodianship.

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Custodians have responsibilities for country and the people. That country continues to sustain generations after generation into the future. For all of us I recognize the important contribution that first nations thinker have made to sociology, including the challenges to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nations delegates in the room today for their contribution to the knowledge in the discipline.

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So now you can start

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Chiago.

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Tiago Vieira: Yeah, okay, thank you very much. good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon. Depending on where you are. so thank you very much for accepting our submission. since the initial submission back in the October things that change a little bit, but the gist of the the paper is more or less the same. I'll start now sharing my screen

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Tiago Vieira: just 1 s. Okay, I assume you walk and see my screen. It would be great if someone from the room could give me a headset. they don't.

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Tiago Vieira: Yeah, I'm gonna assume. Okay?

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Tiago Vieira: So yeah, As you see, we've changed a little bit. The title. Also, I'm referring to a second person, which at the time was not part of the team, but has join me in this this process, which is a Sunday June to also a Phd researcher from and autonomous university in Barcelona.

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Tiago Vieira: Who with myself from the European University Institute, is trying to answer what is the role for human and the human manager and their algorithmic management.

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Tiago Vieira: so you, you've all probably heard about algorithmic management. But in any case,

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Tiago Vieira: we we all know how. the official intelligence has been both rating actually, in the past months, it has been at the center of the also the public debate much more than in the past. and

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Tiago Vieira: how algorithmic decision making mechanisms are proliferating all over society work is a serial society. It is, of course, no exception, and the the introduction of algorithms in work or in the serial work is generated. What has been turned algorithmic management is consists of the use of artificial intelligence

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Tiago Vieira: and tools and software to automate fully or partially managerial tasks. it is known to be used for recruitment, task, allocation and monitor and assessment of work. It's performance, probably all of you have heard about algorithmic management in the context of digital labor platforms, such as Uber delivery test, grab it at work and others. But as we'll see, it is much rather than that.

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Tiago Vieira: So

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Tiago Vieira: people that do what has been also termed algorithmic critical studies have growing from the experience from digital labor platforms, have portrayed algorithmic management as desk in or expected to replace human management. However, what we see if we look at the leads, which are a little bit deeper than just like

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Tiago Vieira: this, this prophecy. So this pick is that actually, in the number of studies where there is no independent contractor. So where workers are actually

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Tiago Vieira: salary by by platforms. what we see is that actually, middle management middle managers, human middle managers do not only exist, but actually they play an important role. This supply, despite the deployment of algorithmic management tools.

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Tiago Vieira: So the research question that emerges from this apparent contradiction is what rules, then less for human manager and their algorithmic management, if they are supposed to be disappearing, the human managers.

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Tiago Vieira: So we looked at the least mature, and we find that this is not our review itself. We we here are benefiting from other works that are already out there, but that algorithms are not necessarily prescriptive. So not necessarily those who could automate all together

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Tiago Vieira: the function of the human manager. But they can also be descriptive or predictive, and therefore they would call for the intervention of a human at some point for the type of here. So we what we find is that human managers are called upon the intervening in the labor process as it unfolds as it was before mentioned, they perform

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Tiago Vieira: task of assessment, but also feedback to workers based on the that data that's is collected with algorithmic tools. they enforce what algorithms they'll workers to do through what has been called, for example, by

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Tiago Vieira: and they actually facilitate different form of control. So if we go back to Paul Edwards, for instance, and we find this distinction between direct technological, bureaucratic and then post bureaucratic. And then we go back to Peter Fleming's work on what is normative control? We find in the literature that algorithmic management can be used to

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Tiago Vieira: different forms of control to enforce it. So basically, what sense can we make of human managers? in directions under algorithmic management

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Tiago Vieira: to try to answer this question. We have looked at this case study sector that is very much under studied, we believe. that is the last mile grocery delivery also called this dark supermarkets. The concept. Here is supermarkets that are not generally open to the public, but that you can order through an app.

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Tiago Vieira: So it's not the same as full delivery, because here the firm is vertically integrated in the sense that These supermarkets run the whole process from the moment that you purchase to the moment that it arrives at your place with now without intermediates.

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Tiago Vieira: We looked at the 3 different firms. Gorillas get in, and global express, which incidentally, 2 of them has already already closed their their doors in the meantime. And we in Spain, where we look at this our idea here.

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Tiago Vieira: By looking at these cases to look for some degree of generosity of our conclusions to both platforms where workers work under employment contract, which is very few, as you will know, and some conventional workplaces that are now incorporating.

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Tiago Vieira: yeah, algorithmic management techniques. even though generalizability is not our main target, If anything, what we want to prove is that the generalization coming from the literature that is assuming the human manager is testing to disappear, already disappearing. is what we want to dialogue with and show that maybe this is not so.

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Tiago Vieira: So far we've conducted 49 semi-structured the interviews 25 with middle managers and 24 with other stuff across these 3 platforms.

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Tiago Vieira: and we are now in the early steps of a thematic analysis of our our subscriptions.

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Tiago Vieira: So what can I tell you at this stage to ensure this super fast delivery of this, that dark supermarkets who, are supposed to deliver your groceries in 10 min from the moment you press by to the moment that it arrives at your door.

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Tiago Vieira: algorithms are used to ensure the privacy of speed. Actually, one of the managers told us more than anything what our main product is time.

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Tiago Vieira: So the idea here is that all processes can be optimized, which means that once you, as a client do another, an algorithm will attribute this order to a a given warehouse that is supposed to be the one nearest to you and 2 workers benefiting from the possibilities given by artificial intelligence to make this process without human intervention.

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Tiago Vieira: through algorithm. If management is also possible for managers to have access to live updates regarding where workers are and how they are performing

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Tiago Vieira: live but also to collect all sorts of data regarding their performance, which then can be compiled and issue.

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Tiago Vieira: and so that it can be issued a report about how they they've been performing over the last day, week, month, or year. This allows the company or each of these 3 companies to sort workers, and also their warehouses as teams according to their performance metrics which in this case is mainly the main metric, is the time of delivery as a proxy for quality of service.

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Tiago Vieira: But we find also that there is very relevant participation of the human manager. Regardless of all these technologies that are put in place.

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Tiago Vieira: for instance, contrary to what we expected, for example, from what we see in warehouses such as those of Amazon. we find that the human managers are crucial to organize, as they say, the maze. So the the lines which products are deployed, and so they can be much more efficiently picked.

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Tiago Vieira: We also find that human managers in in this case, in a parallel with what has been seen in the case of Amazon, are crucial to develop cognitive and emotional strategies, to ensure workers compliance with the times expected and to intensify their work rhythms. So human managers actually are involved in helping workers developing memory queues to make them more efficient

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Tiago Vieira: to develop a team spirit that

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Tiago Vieira: can help in making the the work process also, again, more efficient and faster, competing against other workers, but also especially against other warehouses. but also by indoctrinating workers to a top self optimization ideals

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Tiago Vieira: a very empty idea that you must be as best as possible, although you know, no one really understands why, except for the sake of competition.

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Tiago Vieira:  But besides this we also find that algorithmic management allows the increase of surveillance live, as I've said before, which allows managers to control exactly the location, especially by by the delivers in the street to spur them, and actually call them to make their work faster.

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Tiago Vieira:  Besides the the this live monitor, we we find that managers are also

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Tiago Vieira: found giving queues for the improvement, and sometimes even strategies for our workers themselves to gain the algorithm so they can artificially have better performance metrics, because then this reflects on their own metrics as managers to before the company and before higher levels of management.

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Tiago Vieira: In this sense we find that the management styles the managers, styles human and personal styles largely influence the data collected that is used

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Tiago Vieira: for the sake of time. I will not bother you with a lot of books. We don't have time for that, but here are 2 that I think are very illustrative of what I've been telling you. So this warehouse worker for Global Express tells us they management in this case know where you are at all times. Once the manager called me, saying, Hey, I see you are in the warehouse, but I can't find you. Where are you?

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Tiago Vieira: And I told him, can I at least take a piece? Because this work was in the warehouse, but the manager couldn't see him in the warehouse. He was checking whether there was something at play here that was trying to gain the GPS location. But this also tells us about how they intensify the

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Tiago Vieira: the work freedoms of these workers in a different no, this middle management

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Tiago Vieira: from Geti, one of the other companies we've been studying told me. you will you have all the data? So it was referring to all the metrics that you can collect. But well, the sheets will hold everything But in the end each warehouse is a reflection of each person, so which manager. leadership profile is is then assuming that

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Tiago Vieira: from warehouse to warehouse the way that you deal with the metrics is actually essential. And then this plugs in with all the

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Tiago Vieira: teamwork and teams period and normative forms of control that are adopted beyond the technological control.

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Tiago Vieira: So what can we conclude at this stage, which is, I said, as I said to you, very preliminary, but nonetheless.

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Tiago Vieira: so contrary to expectation, into what some of the literature has been saying, algorithmic management is not the end of human management. If anything, algorithmic management is being deployed to facilitate the expansion of managerial surveillance powers by human managers, but control is complex in this context of you of algorithmic management is not straightforward because it is in a way, discipline and

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Tiago Vieira: bureaucratic, but also greatly normative, as you may remember what I just said about the ideals of teamwork motivation strategies in game like designs. this is, of course, facilitated by algorithmic management, although not necessarily completely new because of the colossal amount of data that is made available by the by algorithmic tools.

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Tiago Vieira: So in a nutshell. We can say that algorithmic management take the survey possibilities for managerial intervention instead of withdrawing human managers. and intervention altogether allowing a more efficient and perhaps unprecedented combination of previously existing modes of production and forms of control, namely, bringing to the together

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Tiago Vieira: forms of control that before we're seen discretely separated, namely, direct control, technological control and normative control. And in this sense we find something new that deserves the attention of both trade unionists, workers and policymakers or the possible consequences it may bring to the future of work.

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Tiago Vieira:  And that's it. Thank you.

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we can ask questions.

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You have any

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field. It was.

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 do you hear me?

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Tiago Vieira: Yeah, I do it.

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Yeah, yeah, thank you for an interesting presentation. By the way, I set up a camera in the room so that you can actually see us. It's Michael.

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 So with the algorithmic management, one thing, it was a very interesting presentation. So and that's a very interesting case. But one thing I wondered when I look at the studies of algorithmic management, especially these Uber studies. They are a lot about

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cases where you don't have an actual space where people meet with Uber we have the drivers, and then they are managed as singular drivers. And then the effect is that these people you manage.

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They don't have any real feedback loop group anymore. That is, I think, the fascinating part for me of algorithmic management, whereas in your case, like the the situation, that it is an actual space where they meet and gather. It seems to make a great difference. So I'm not saying that, and that is not a critique. I just

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I want to say that, like the spatial aspect, it seems to make a huge difference where also the workers still have some kind of agency like this. Can I take a piss? Quote? This also shows agency that the Uber driver can't have because he just can't utter that. For example.

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Yeah. thanks

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more, maybe more comment. I don't know. But yeah.

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Tiago Vieira: maybe maybe I can answer right away. And if we have more questions, then then, I will answer afterwards. So let me say, yeah, I think that you are definitely right.

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Tiago Vieira: in in a it's true that in the case of Uber. The fact, I I mean, and other platforms the fact that the face, the the fact that there is no spatial congregation, so that people are not together in the same place. definitely plays a role. But I think that this is not the end of the story here, because.

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Tiago Vieira: also the fact that workers are independent contractors. And that's why we make the distinction in the in the very beginning, also allows the company to leave them more alone on their own. So they need to develop strategies.

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Tiago Vieira: They, I mean, workers, need to develop strategies to be as efficient as they can, because if they are not efficient, they will not make money, whereas in this case, because it's a virtually a vertically integrated firm, what we see is that management is crucial for attaining the goals of the company, because workers will get their salary.

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Tiago Vieira: irrespective of how fast they are delivering, you know. So they are working 8 h per day getting their salaries. They deliver 10, or they will get the same as they. They deliver 12, so management becomes crucial. what we, the the bottom line argument we try to develop, as you've also, in a way, that's the point is not to say that people who have studied Uber or other platforms, including ourselves

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Tiago Vieira: erez agmoni are wrong. We're just saying that the the the possibilities for control from algorithmic management expand beyond the very much voted cases of food delivery and right hailing, and actually 150.

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Tiago Vieira: This is why we look at this particular case because we believe it can dialogue in a more effective way with the the rest of the conventional workplaces that are out there than the peculiar cases of Uber, or for delivery in general, not to say that they are wrong, but they are just less generalizable to the the context of work conventional workplaces, so to speak.

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any any more.

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Youngrong Lee: I have a question.

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Youngrong Lee: I can hear me. I have a question from zoom, yeah.

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Youngrong Lee: okay? So my question is, is it kind of follow up question as well as a similar question with the

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Youngrong Lee:  with the space right so Given previous literature, and also my research in Canada. So there was a fedora, and there was actually a office place where workers can meet each other and and with the managers. And then, interesting enough. You know this presence of managers. And then this like,

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Youngrong Lee: yeah, it's many yeah, meeting. Middle man, right? The managers the the interesting thing about this presence is that it actually can trigger workers to be more to be more organizing, right? Because you know, instead of having this face list like a AI. You know this like motion like beings rather than that. having this, you know. having this extra person as a manager can

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Youngrong Lee: can trigger more emotional. You know, these erections or the possibilities that actually they could do something with these people, because at least we can talk right? At least we can have conversation. We could argue, and that we can fight so that that was something interesting about this. the human managers behind this AI or this or the platform economy. So I was wondering. in your project. I I understand this was not about

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Youngrong Lee: not necessarily disorganizing or unionizing. But just, I'm interested in that topic. So I was wondering in your, in your field or in your study. Were you able to observe these 2

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Youngrong Lee: more possibilities of organizing compared to more face list manager. And I going to be management. Thank you.

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Tiago Vieira: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for your question. Indeed! I think that you are. You are right, and

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Tiago Vieira: so let let me split the the answer into the first part would be. indeed, it is possible. And some of these workers were actually unionizing. And, you know, trying to get together forms of organization. I think that we didn't see more of that, because this was a very. In in all cases they were very recent companies in the Spanish context. So people were still trying to get that get direct together to make sense of what they

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Tiago Vieira: could do about it. on the one hand, on the other hand and reinforcing exactly the potentialities that are out there, we find that these companies develop a lot of normative control. So, for example, there is a lot of teamwork spirit. And you know, like, for example, one of the companies has this weekly Newsletter, where they say, who's the best warehouse? Here's the team of the month, or whatever

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Tiago Vieira: and and this actually, we see it as that. That's why we say that there are all these forms of control that come together, because, indeed, the companies themselves

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Tiago Vieira: do not believe that AI or algorithmic techniques or technological devices are enough to control. So they need to use what they can get from, you know, automated decision making systems not to to make decisions, but to actually produce artifacts of control through other means. So you're you are definitely right. unfortunately, 2 of these 3 companies are

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closing doors which will not give us enough room to keep on.

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Tiago Vieira: Yeah, also observing what? What would be the impact of workers organizing and how what strategies they would develop. But in in any case, yet you're absolutely correct. And I think that this actually plugs in very well with our own work to see that companies themselves realize this. And that's why they they develop a much more complex story of control than in other platforms in general. Thank you.

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Thank you for Such a wonderful presentation and such a enriching discussion. So now we are out of the time. So if we want to have more question and answer sessions, we can have a email communication. So we can have next presenter.

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Oh.

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great! So Just to just for the housekeeping we have like. we, we are keeping like 15 min of the presentation. 5 min for the question. Answer. So it's up to you to. If you want to add chest, you can adjust accordingly. But we have only 20 min in total.

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So yeah, next can start.

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Youngrong Lee: Yes.

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Youngrong Lee: thank you for organizing this. interesting and very relevant session. And Hello, everyone. My name is Jong lonely. I am of just Canada at the University of Toronto. so I'm now. I'm very pressure by the time, because I prepare for 20 min I will do my best to make that a little bit shorter.

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Youngrong Lee: okay.

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Youngrong Lee: So today, I'm going to present

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Youngrong Lee: my study titled understanding the Union strategy through crisis, comparatively, for us unions install internal So I also have changed a little bit my research from what I have submitted to. as a extract. So this particular

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Youngrong Lee: presentation say, it's a part of my dissertation which is a trend transnational comparative study of keep work and give workers unions in these 2 cities.

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Youngrong Lee: So in this presentation, I ask, how does the specific strategy of keep workers unions emerge from the crisis that the workers in each society are faced with.

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Youngrong Lee: so in doing so, I employed the eventual comparison as the specific for comparative method that team company suggested

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Youngrong Lee: that is analyzing events as opportunities for knowledge that can be leveraged by compared to a photographer.

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Youngrong Lee: So in my study, my, my, my adventure comparison considers social and health crisis in 2 cities as critical comparative point.

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Youngrong Lee: So my data, my main date data, is drawn from 18 month or participate observation in into the worker's unions in and 85 in depth interviews with kick workers as well as organizers and state quarters.

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Youngrong Lee: So I have 2 cases. So first, one is keep workers United Internal Canada, but previously that was boosters United

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Youngrong Lee: before Fedora, as I mentioned briefly left the Canadian Market so left left left Canada after Fedora workers united one, the core one one. This court case about the employment, the status, so it can be considered as a Union first. that for the r showed.

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Youngrong Lee: So I have another case, which is the Rider Union in Seoul. that is, the independent union formed around the similar time to full search, invite it. But interestingly, this year, about 3 months ago

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Youngrong Lee: this rider unit has also transformed the Union as a part of this big trade trade union in Korea, which is public sector service workers. So it is interesting convergence that these 2 unions that actually start up initiated as a different path the con they converse as

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Youngrong Lee: the one local of on big trade union.

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Youngrong Lee: So I would like to introduce the similarities and differences between these 2 cases that help explain each unions, distinct ways of engagement.

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Youngrong Lee: So first, both of these unions are industri, that that means that these 2 unions organize all workers or deliber workers across the industry, regardless of the companies like Uber or Fedora. You know, companies that workers work for

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Youngrong Lee: and I and I think that these unions can be considered as innovative unions or new unions test that are distinguished from traditional unionism that is, focusing collective bargaining with one employers.

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Youngrong Lee: So these workers that they

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Youngrong Lee: these 2 unions are organizing our key workers. Right? So these key workers are those who are excluded from the existing label or law. They're forward also excluded from social safety. That

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Youngrong Lee: so these gig workers are particularly renewable to the crisis.

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Youngrong Lee: And also I found 2 main differences between these 2 unions workers, intersectional by purpose and the main means of labor

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Youngrong Lee: so internal people of color and micro worker.

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Youngrong Lee: Our we're the critical mess, internal skip or keep work as well as the unions, and in terms of gender. I we will call quarter or women in my terminal simple, and this sample includes 2 transgender individuals, and had the female leadership.

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Youngrong Lee: while to both cities the labor is predominantly masculine, but this male presentation, is much starker in sales case

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Youngrong Lee: in Seoul we are working class and marginalized Korean men. Our current citizens are the main members of the Union.

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Youngrong Lee: So for these or for this reason, racial issues or gender issues have not been a critical part of the unions activities. However, there are the case for you. for the terminal

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Youngrong Lee: Union

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Youngrong Lee: and internal. Both of the workers use bicycles a bicycles when they deliver food but in in whole since driving motor scooters and more of motorcycles have associated with the high a number of accidents, and including this fatal accident.

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Youngrong Lee: safety issues has been particularly the strong focus for the Union.

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Youngrong Lee: And as you crystal from the previous

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Youngrong Lee: oh, actually here. Oh. previous pictures!

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Youngrong Lee: In Seoul, most of the Union not union not only Union members, but also this, most of the key workers. Full deliber workers are the bicycle writers. So therefore, the name is Rider Union.

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Youngrong Lee: So then, this share the characteristic of 2 unions as unions was particularly stood out when these 2 unions to advocate and support gig workers in the pandemic.

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Youngrong Lee: So they are the most powerful the power and almost the only unit advocating educating for key workers in

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Youngrong Lee: in both cities.

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Youngrong Lee: Because I'm A, as I mentioned these workers as independent contractors or special employees, which is a similar concept. in Korea. They They are not protected by existing labor law as well as the pandemic related governmental or companies policies.

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Youngrong Lee: So so for the In this context there the work. Sorry the unions were. I was

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Youngrong Lee: highlighted in dollar in the pandemic.

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Youngrong Lee: and the especially in the case of promo for us. Exit during the pandemic.

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Youngrong Lee: added this crisis right as this double crisis. first, the pandemic and the second the job loss for the workers who, preliminarily. Depend it

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on working for then how these 2 unions deal with a workers, economic urgency and public health crisis.

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Youngrong Lee: So the Union organizers from both unions draw on the available resources and help workers to get and get benefit from those resources as much as it they could, because they have already very limited resources. In the first place, right by 151

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Youngrong Lee: by being not employees. So these Union organizers, they actively informed and provided the workers with this information

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Youngrong Lee: to to use that.

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Youngrong Lee: and also unions gathered and clarified the specific needs and difficulties of the kick offers from the below right during the pandemic, and then deliver them to companies or government.

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Youngrong Lee: and because workers weren't again not protected by it. by the time, the policies.

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Youngrong Lee: It was critical for these unions to collect. The workers voice from below. create the discourse and demand them.

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Youngrong Lee: Otherwise unions voice skip workers need. And these key corners voices were, easily isolated and excluded from the disk out to social discourses as well as the work worker protection.

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Youngrong Lee: But The unique way of how unions how these 2 units engage.

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Youngrong Lee: also deferred by the local dynamics.

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Youngrong Lee: particularly because of the intersectionalities in workers, biographies, and the main means of labor, as the many differences as I introduced earlier

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Youngrong Lee: then. from these differences, how they how they are using engagement and how their Union.

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Youngrong Lee: strategies are distinguished. First, in the case of Toronto.

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Youngrong Lee: community unionism is is what it was mainly used as a as a Union engagement method.

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Youngrong Lee: So community unionism is the the very process, and that that differs from the domino model of union, which is trade unionism, the collective bargaining right between one employer and the paid employees in a single workplace.

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Youngrong Lee: So community union

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Youngrong Lee: so with this philosophy or this principle of community unionism for these people, of course, United internal. There was a specific, specifically the case when they when they advocate for workers. the

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Youngrong Lee: the the social issues that the workers experience, including racial and sexual minorities issues and the micro workers status issues. So it became the one of the main

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Youngrong Lee: union unit activities right to for advocate for those workers.

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Youngrong Lee: So this union also provided a social community for them and then raise the social awareness

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Youngrong Lee: and by advocating to So one example for this is that is, when this keep workers united, the organizers advocate it for extending the eligibility of the problem with the emergency fund at the time was available. to a smaller workers.

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Youngrong Lee: right? So these unions and educate to extend and

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Youngrong Lee: is fund to many more precursors and many more marginalized workers, including the migrant kick workers.

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Youngrong Lee: And another effort was mutual support, providing virtual support, such as hardy hardship bank

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Youngrong Lee: like this. for workers

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Youngrong Lee: for having financial difficulties at the time when after the left

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Youngrong Lee: and provide grocery through their boxes, or, you know, having the social gathering like this that was 2021. This the social barbecue barbecue afternoon that they

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Youngrong Lee: organize. So these are another

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Youngrong Lee: aspect of this community unionism. effort.

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Youngrong Lee: then, in the case of so I I argue that they, their main strategy is communicative unionism.

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Youngrong Lee: That is, a form of unionism that combines vibrant industrial action with framing and staging dispute in the public. Er

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Youngrong Lee: so the key here is to communicate with the public as well as the workers, with a variety of means

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Youngrong Lee: such as social media, and press conferences, and frequently releasing the political statements. You know about the governmental or the companies doing doing wrong doings and contributing to the new media. by the organizers.

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Youngrong Lee: So

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Youngrong Lee: for this union, the Rider Union.

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Youngrong Lee: So this communicative union is, was highlighted when they all tackling with everyday safety crisis, which I which I think which I argue that there's comprised of these 2 kinds of safety crisis, which which is industrial safety issue and social safety crisis.

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Youngrong Lee: So because, because keep workers in Korea, they mostly use mono by a border scooter. So that is a so over the last

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Youngrong Lee: Over the last years. These top 2 delivered companies were the ones who recorded the most industrial accident.

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Youngrong Lee: So now is considered. This industry is itself is considered the most dangerous industry in Korea.

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Youngrong Lee: so that is the industrial safety and the road to safety. This, this keep workers are facing every day.

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Youngrong Lee: and there's another safety crisis, which is so I which is, I refer

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Youngrong Lee: as social safety crisis is is from this workers. workers. Biography in Korea, which is low, skilled, and low educated may workers as a representative workforce.

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Youngrong Lee: So there was a stigma attached to cre to this class discrimination to these workers which I argue that jeopardize to work for social safety.

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Youngrong Lee: So so, rider, you know, has utilized a variety of methods, variety of tools to to tackle with this issue such as the lobby and

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Youngrong Lee: and conducting the experiment on platform algorithm to, you know, to prove that the relationship between the algorithm management and both safety

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Youngrong Lee: and offering the various information to the workers. And, lastly, the activities to fight against the customers and restaurant owners such prejudice and the abuse of power against the delivery workers.

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Youngrong Lee: So the first 3 first 3.

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Youngrong Lee: These are to mainly pre to prevent industrial accident, and the last the last one is for social protection, for keep work first.

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Youngrong Lee: And these are the examples I throw home from their activities, such as the press conference and the performance.

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Youngrong Lee: And

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Youngrong Lee: yeah, of course, the protest and then social media use is like a Youtube channel, the Rider Union so activists are

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Youngrong Lee:  are running.

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Youngrong Lee: So conclusion. So first, I firstly, I would like to argue this the use usefulness of event work prices in highlighting the key role of unions for the metal workers outside the social safety net.

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Youngrong Lee: And also, I

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Youngrong Lee: I want to argue, though unique units the unique unions and engagement strategies are shaped by the distinct local context.

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Youngrong Lee: So in this sense, I display the importance of understanding the local dynamics of each union. Okay, I will stop here. Thank you so much for your attention.

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Oh.

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quick questions.

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anyone or

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our can you hear me?

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So thanks for nice presentation. So I'm curious to ask whether both unions in Toronto, and so could mobilize as a you know, or like external resources kind of registrators or legal professions, or as a major unknowns, because I guess the

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most union members consist of budgetable or employment contracts.

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Yeah, it seems like it. It's yeah, a little bit difficult to maintain the Union solidarity or density than any other traditional unions. So yeah, I I I like, you know, W. What support their unionizing strategy outside their organizations. So thanks, so much.

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Youngrong Lee: okay, thank you for the question. But just to clarify the question, if whether I understood correctly. So you said, is your question about the Union, how the Union organizers

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Youngrong Lee: outreach, and then the organized individual workers because they are not employees, or they are more like independent contractors.

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Youngrong Lee: Is that the question?

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Yeah, I mean, you know. So for example, in the so case they try doing a lobbying activities to, you know, registrate us so. But but in, in in a sense it, it. It's a difficult to reach out to legislators or other resources, so I guess some some professionals or other organizations support them to do some.

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So such a thing. So I'd like to ask that question.

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Youngrong Lee: yeah, thank you for. yeah, yes, I I got it. Well, yes, so absolutely. So. This workers in this the union organizing the first place, they were not this professional

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Youngrong Lee: organizers from trade union right? So they were really electing these work professional skills to reach out to you know, like my policymakers, for example, right? So they definitely need the resources, ex external resources, or other organization in civil society, and then from my feet, or last last year, I what I really found. And then what I found really.

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Youngrong Lee: really interesting. And it was that in full case, especially, of course, from the to book it it was more without in full. So they had really plan of resources from Service Society actors such as progressive radical policymakers who reach out to them and they wanted to work with something for lobbying

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Youngrong Lee: or like press conferences, or etc. Or others so much let's say, the city the city level.

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Youngrong Lee: npo, non non non-profit organizations. The actors. they want it to support financially. Right? They. They are interested

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Youngrong Lee: issues, but they are not expert either. So they wanted to do something, but they believe that they needed to do something with the Union, because this union or this union was the wall who know the host, and then who have this? speaking for the writers, the most in society, right? So there is a kind of social consensus

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Youngrong Lee: in the civil society that this union is the expert

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Youngrong Lee: on the field. So there are lots of I'll help, especially again, in the case of soul, from especially from a progressive policymakers or parties, actors or this the civil society organizations. So without that, of course, the unions weren't able to, to, you know, weren't able to talk to what they have done.

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Youngrong Lee: Thank you for the question.

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thank you for the such a nice presentation, and invite another presenter.

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next one.

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Hi!

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A well, I'm a Karina bonom, and this article I I I co-author it with a fundostek's bilder and a tunnel.

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and it's called a making the commoditized worker migrant deep labor in Chile.

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In this article we examine the role that international migration plays in the functioning of the G economy in Chile.

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Despite the platform, economy relies heavily on migrant labor. In Latin America, migrants, experiences remain understudied.

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we argue that a mutual dependency emerge between the platform economy and migrant labor as digital platforms depend on workers to be able to work for long hours on the apps, yet not demand any rights or benefits as part of their strategy, to enter, and aggressively growing. New markets and migrants depend on the platforms, as they are unable to find work in the form, a labor market due to restricted migration policies.

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We argued that as a digital platforms mediate work, they turn them into commoditized workers, rendering them replaceable and disposable.

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while the strategies workers resort to allow re-working or resisting platform control. They also tend to the inherent vulnerabilities to their work.

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Workers often find themselves having to resort to self-exploitation, to make and smit and reproduce the regular labor practices of informal economies.

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In 25 years. Migrants from Latin America and and Caribbean Nishi in Chile have increased almost 8 times

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hostile migration policies has hindered migrant success to the labour market, and migration policies transferred migrants, vulnerable residents, status to vulnerability in the labour, market the labor market in Latin America has been historically characterized by casual or temporary informal work.

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and in such a context the tidal labor market is one of the most informal labor markets in the region, and is characterized by poor job stability, low-income jobs and high levels of informality, and even in the formal sector, when in the former sector, increasingly flexible market, through so contracting and temporary contracts, generates a greater precariousness and labor exportation.

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Migrants have also experienced multiple forms of vulnerability based on their migration status, further limiting their access to a labor market or exposing them to high levels of discrimination. Their shooting policy environment in chile explains why many migrants have resorted to informal markets to make, and Smith exposing them to various kinds of abuse.

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In such a context the gay economy has provided a temporary working opportunity for newcomers due to the low-entry barriers and its entrepreneurial character. The same conditions also make migrants idea workers as they are able to provide flexible engagement on the platforms and commit to long working hours.

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and one of the defining features of platform work is the so-called absence of the employer and the and the consequent lack of a binding employment relationship, together with the A. A. Special or placeless nature of this type on demand work.

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the national evidence indicates that, despite the fact that the contractual link at least kick workers as independent contractors, many indicators reveals a disguised employment. Relationship

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studies have shown that the E. Economy increases. Inequality in the labor market, and the way platforms are designed has accelerated a process of commodification because workers are treated as a commodity that is easily replaceable and protected by legal rights and traditional labor regulation and institutions.

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So the research methods well, this is part of a multinational project, fair work that that examines labor conditions in the platform economy around the world.

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A. we conducted 54 semi-structure interviews with gig workers from 8 platforms.

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and from this sample it is interesting to note that more than two-thirds of the interviewees who used bikes or motorbikes to work on food delivery platforms were migrants. while a majority of those who worked on right-haling platforms which regard a driving license such as Uber.

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So the migrant workers we spoke to stated that platforms have become an opportunity, as they provide an easier and faster entry to a labor market, especially when they are between visas or waiting for their applications to be processed, or if they are undocumented

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as anian from Venezuela. It told us.

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because of the need

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to work for me as an undocumented migrant. It was an immediate way to start working, so I didn't bother to read the contract fully.

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Hence platform jobs becomes a convenient and a straightforward way in comparison to other jobs to so to sustain themselves and their families. This, however, means that they also have access to fewer rights and less ability to resist for working conditions.

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We found out that different categories of migrants determine the different ways they gain access to the G. Economy as well as their position in it.

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Migrants are generally more disadvantaged than local workers, due to their temporary residency of regular residence status that allows them only to have a access to positions that are less remunerated and more vulnerable, especially if they are undocumented and have to pay for having a fake valid account.

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So uncertain migration status results in migrants facing multiple vulnerabilities in the labor market. This is not to say that migrants are the only workers who face vulnerabilities in this G economy, but that their ability to resist for working conditions is lessened as a result of their migration status, and they and its uncertainty, especially when they lack of a visa.

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Most participants stated that they depended on their job, and they worked from Monday to Sunday 10 h per day, or even more.

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As this job was the only source of income, they become more exposed to the risk and lack of insurance that this fork entails. In effect. During the course of this of this study a female participant, a a female participant, died in a traffic accident some weeks after being interviewed by us.

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and in another ongoing study. Another participant also died suddenly some months ago. So the risk is real. as Gabriel from Venezuela explains, the risk of an accident or motorcycle is too high.

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In fact, I had accidents, and I wouldn't want to have one again, because I was 2 weeks in bed and I had to pay my medical bills.

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I had to get up obliged because I was 2 weeks off. And I depend on this, it's my only job.

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So gig workers constantly reach their personal security and physical integrity and have no support in the face of accidents or ill health.

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So under this work, modality, and the misleading idea of entrepreneurship and collaborative work, the precariousness of a system that shifts labor, R and cost to the workers is hidden.

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and for migrant workers the need to work makes them a dependent labor force that cannot resist the conditions mandated by the platforms, as they simply cannot afford their accounts to be deactivated, that forms speed of migrants, vulnerability, and thereby managed to secure and and to control a workforce that will accept anything and everything just to be able to earn a living.

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So migrants were constrained in how much they could resist the work conditions as they light access to any other source of income. And we discovered that although they reject the labor nature of the work. Digital platforms impose and manage control in new ways.

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The platform constantly held them under surveillance and control their actions.

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These control mechanisms indicate that the job relationship on the on the platforms is closer to the traditional labor employment between an employer and employee rather than an independent contractor.

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Most platforms make use of a shadow sanctions where workers are punished indirectly through small orders that generate less income. Rejecting an order might also lead to disciplinary actions, such as the activation of the workers account, which means losing their jobs.

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Some platforms use a so-called ranking system for organizing time slots and working times on the app.

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The higher the rank of a worker, the more they have

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access to time slots that are high in demand and subsequently earn more money.

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Needless to say, those who depend on the platforms for their livelihoods. The most are also the ones who end up accepting even the worst time time slots and the poorest working conditions. While our interviews interview is declared that platforms don't force you to accept any particular job. They acknowledge that it is this ranking system that pushes them to be as active as possible on the apps, often going beyond the legal limits of 8 h work day.

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A Silvio, former a worker at the of yeah, an activist said the following.

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they exercised control surveillance, the power to to pay me because the company sets the price. I'm not a partner. I'm an ordinary worker. What is happening here is that this new employment, which they call the employment of the future, which is nothing, but, in my opinion, is a crude, vulgar exploitation of the working class, where they what they do is maximize their profits through an algorithm and enslave through that same algorithm. The workers

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in such a context, migrants have to put in place different strategies to navigate these difficulties and negotiate the working conditions in the gigging environment.

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So we identified 3 important strategies, migrant workers employed to navigate and tweak the conditions and control mechanisms of platforms ever. So it's likely to their advantage.

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While these strategies do not have the power to alter the poor working conditions. Migrant workers experience systematically, and they do allow micro workers to rework them.

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So the first strategy, multi-apping or being loaded into multiple accounts was a common practice. Given the impossibility of guaranteeing a sufficient income by using just one platform.

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the lack of background checks for workers on some food delivery platforms has led to the emergence of bore road or pirate accounts where migrant workers use somebody else's accounts in order to access work. Through this second strategy migrant participants take up employment on platforms using fake identities, allowing them to work despite their irregular migration status. Even though these 2 strategies do not directly improve working conditions in terms of pay conditions or benefits.

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They still allow workers to avoid the worst situation that is being locked out of income opportunities. since some platforms are not able to verify accounts or or the workers behind them. This means that even when platforms attempt to take action against them, they still have some room for maneuver.

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Although these strategies look as though they enable workers to see convent some of the poor conditions, they also serve to depend

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their bonal position by creating a further race to the bottom. This is because, while quick fixes to get around the difficulties of accessing some platforms. Now it has turned into a business of its own, giving rise to a gray or elicit market a and essentially further restrainting access to work for some Latin American accred and migrants.

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Now we see these platforms. Work accounts are being advertised on social media where some early-comers make business.

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Indeed, it seems that acts of labor agency with both our own workers, individual strategies and ways of making and Smith meet rather than attempts to alter the structural limit of platform work.

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those using borrowed accounts, fear joining collective action even more as this might risk their ability to secure another account should this one get blocked as a result of the strike.

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In this landscape, however, the workers, social media accounts have been key to resisting platform control as migrant workers meet others and come to realize their shared vulnerabilities, they also begin to unite around them.

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A thus actively participating in social media communities of riders can be seen as a third strategy of resistance. These social media accounts of riders allowed workers to start organizing collectively and actually receive platforms through protests

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in real space.

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So amid the COVID-19 pandemic, a collective resistance acts emerged through social media, a migrant food delivery workers, organized mass protests to demand better conditions.

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For instance, the reader accounts, riders yeah, echoing the name of the food delivery platform pedestrian

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was formed by stillibial, A. A Venezuela migrant food delivery worker in order to expose poor working conditions on the platform and mix demand from the platform management.

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However, even beyond the fear of being deactivated for undocumented migrants, the fear of deportation prevents them from engaging in a strike action, or other forms of of overt resistance. Our study shows that workers do not necessarily share the same political deals on matters relating to their work.

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and they also do not face the same risks

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when engaging in overt forms of resistance, most notably migrant workers with permanent residency or temporary visa, were willing to go on strikes.

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but those who were undocumented were not due to the fear of deportation. So, in conclusion, we showed that there is a mutual dependency between gig economy platforms and migrant labor. In Chile.

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The platform economy reproduces the informality already existing in the traditional labor market, but on a digital scale. It facilitates labor, abuse, and exploitation, and it becomes a sort of self-exploitation.

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Subsequently we argue that this is it. It is this mutual dependency that turns migrants into commoditized workers, disposable and replaceable as workers, labor agency becomes constrained.

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 however, the recent workers strikes in Latin America demonstrate that the current system is increasingly unsustainable and platforms are aware of it.

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We argue that while migrants everyday practices express their labor agency, this agency is constrained by their migration background and the algorithm algorithmically controlled and surveilled dynamics of platform work

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workers. Ability to challenge the working conditions is mostly limited to individual acts of covert resistance and collective acts of resistance are still difficult, difficult to mobilize and sustain.

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While the strategies workers resort to allow reworking or resisting platform control, they also tend to their inherent vulnerabilities to their work. Thus migrant workers are able to navigate platforms, control mechanisms and conditions to an extent, but they also know that that actively resisting platform policies end up hurting them in the end.

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So strategies used to navigate algorithms and labor dynamics, such as the use of pirate accounts or borrowed accounts, entail risks and organizing collectively and protesting in the streets has also resulted in the activation as our interviewees that were involved in this protest, confirmed

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in some Workers often find themselves having to resort to self-explanation, to make ends meet and reproduce the regular labor practices that only depend migrants exclusion in T.

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Thank you

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questions.

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Ian Campbell from the University of Melbourne.

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I think it's a very rich topic, of course, migrant participation in

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in platform work, and there's a common story, probably in a number of countries.

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although, of course, there'll be Chilean specific specificities.

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Well, I guess, thinking about

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the local scene, one of the

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one of the lessons from the studies of, say, migrant participation in at least food delivery work

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was that many migrants, despite all the horrible conditions of the work, felt that it was actually better

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than some real alternatives in the informalized economy that they face like, for example, in the hospitality job.

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where there'd be a risk of the employer stealing their money or agriculture, where, of course, you have to go into a very isolated part of the country. And again, there's a risk of employers stealing the job, stealing your money, etc. But I'm just wondering it for the Chilean case, and I suppose the consequence of that is that certain types of migrants go into the food delivery

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work, and they might not necessarily stay there. They might move back into the cafes. I just wonder in chile. Do you think it's possible or or useful to extend

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the study to sort of look at that kind of comparison between the different industries?

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Yeah, that's a really good question. And thank you, because actually, I just presented before.

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And and in that study also, I did a graphic work where I studied how migrants access to work. So I actually know that many of them, with uncertain, migratory status, had to resort to informal economies.

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and and we're prey of abusive employers, right? So exactly like for them when when the G economy like started to like grow in chile the last years

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it became an opportunity absolutely, for a like like was better than the actual informal economies. But but I think and and that's a thing like in the narratives of A. We had 2 different views, you know. One view was like, Okay, yes, this is better than the other job, because I I my own boss in some sense.

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but they also knew, like they they they also.

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We're aware, and acknowledged, that it was not that an entrepreneurial job that this kind of this idea of I, my own boss.

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It was not the case, because they were like in the end they are forced to work even more than they would work for Even for an abusive employer, employer. Probably so so in the end, for for making you know these rankings, you know, and and have better income.

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they were forced, you know, to be constantly on the app. And and the thing is that I

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in the end, after after doing this study, I really believe that it's it reproduces the same abusive relationships. But that's the thing like now the employer is hidden in the platform. Right? So so this idea of self-exploitation. You know, it's it's quite interesting, because okay, it seems like there is. It is a self-sportation. But it really it isn't. You know, it like, that's the way platform works. So

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so I do believe that a I think that that comparison that would be really interesting to see. But as as I saw that beforehand in in my, in my anographic field work.

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I do believe that

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I think it reproduces the same thing. But in another way it's it's just another way, and on a digital scale, basically. But that's my opinion. And and what I found in Chile. Yes.

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oh.

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yeah, thanks a lot, Michael called the hammer from our C. 17 and Antonio Norway. My question is actually pretty similar, but I think a little bit differently framed, because I thought something similar, but more in terms of

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not necessarily better or worse, but in terms of that well, these platforms, of course.

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made up that they are self-employed, and so on, or at least that's my impression. But what my impression also.

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if, after the presentation, might it be still that

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one crucial difference is that something that was largely hidden. These illicit employment relationships like basically invisible, like, yeah, everyone knows of it kind of. But it's largely behind the doors somewhere in the cellar and so on. Why these platforms becomes more visible, and then you have like these protests

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emerging. So you say, the employers are now hidden in the platform. But I wonder if at least one upside, if you want to say it is that the workers actually have become more visible through that

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absolutely. And that's why, I'm sure. Actually, I'm I'm studying right now. You know, I'm I'm doing a digital ethnography

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to see the the like. The role that a social media plays

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in this or in in this kind of yeah or collective organizations. But still they they haven't unionized, you know. And that's the thing that actually actually, the the platforms really don't have like anti

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organization. I'm sorry I'm

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I forgot the the term, but but It's still like they they try to organise a but it still. For example, all the protests. And actually, I'm I'm documenting all these protests. Actually, the last one was, I don't know. 2 months ago or 3 months ago. and but still few people arrive in the end. So okay, they do this. You know, they they organize. They have Whatsapp groups.

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But there is more like a solidarity among workers.

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Actually, that's different from this paper. But but I I I've seen more solidarity, and and I and I see also that. But what is interesting that I'm studying now is like all the because I I'm I'm I study my mission for 12 years, and and all the literature said, you know my grand workers or migrants usually don't up a

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a.

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you know, resist working conditions, or try not to, because of the fear of deportation right? But we are seeing that the people that are organizing this mass protest are migrants and migrants, not we have with temporary visa not even permanent residency. So it's really interesting. So now, now, I'm kind of developing that that kind of a

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side of like area of research, because I think it's really interesting. Okay, like, how? Why they do it, you know, and how they protect themselves. And and I realized that some, like

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the way that they protect themselves is, is through the borrowed accounts

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mit Ctl, and so in the end, if someone like, if if they deactivate them okay, they will use another one, but also this depends the social resolution, because they are a scam, 250

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by the other co-workers, you know, and they and they have to pay for rent. And they. And that's the thing. Now, now, it's a gray market, which is an interesting yeah. Sorry, you know, to study, like.

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sure, yeah, thanks.

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Yeah.

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I think you, I'm Crispin from. So so like, invest in Kimberly in South Africa. So I'm interested in

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are these workers?

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how do they relate? the first, let me say the first, the first part

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in terms of their future, and this is just an entry for them to enter the labour market in these as migrants. or they see them in terms of a future in terms of

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career development in this particular?

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Or is it just a point where they just see themselves

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as a point of entry?

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And also what about the the participation of the local, the the citizen? Are they also involved in this particular?

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Okay? But

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can you repeat the first question because I got lost? Okay, I I am saying.

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how do they see themselves in this sector? Do they see themselves in terms of the future career development? Are they seeing themselves? As I'm not sure if my question is G. But in terms of

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do they see themselves remaining these jobs for the rest of their life? Are they just getting info

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for them to get a step into the labour market. Exactly. Do they see a future in this particular sort of like sector? It's workers. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, actually, a, no, no. In this. In this, in this interview, interviews, we found out that they they they start doing the economy, but to like just generate income, to send remittances, you know, to their families.

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but Like while they are waiting for their visas to come out because they brought the the the things that now in Chile. The visa procedures are very slow, so it can take a year. Even

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so. So you you apply for a visa. But you and you cannot work formally in that year.

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So they have to generate income, you know. And and so they start this a like in terms of like any regular work. So they always say or like they they never saw like a future, a like. I'm going to do this the rest of my life now. It was like a temporary work.

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and until they got their business and everything. But of course, undocumented migrants will like

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also wait for regularization as well. So anyway, like, yeah, for the winter migrants. Probably they they they saw, you know, the economy as as a way to just generate income.

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A. But it's still, I think a. They would wait until regularization to access like a proper, more formal job, you know, with with a steady income, that that's the thing, because it's not steady with the platform, but anyways they they earn much more money, like much more than the minimum salary in.

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So that's yeah. But yeah, that that's a really good question, and the other one, the low locals. A. The interesting thing is that they were like did not organize this mass, protests that that emerge in the covid pandemic. That was the the first ones. and that's I think that's why that's because

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they work in right hailing apps

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that they they? They earn much, much more money. They have a car when you have to have a car for that. So they have more money and all tile on stage like that, that that working in this platforms, they said that this was just a second secondary income

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mit Ctl, and and they were like entrepreneurs. So they were just like generating a bit of money for their entrepreneurs like for for their companies, small companies that they are funding, you know, starting a so they were usually middle class sillions one.

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some not not all, you know, but the ones that we interviewed, for somehow they were all kind of middle class working at a cornership that's now owned by Uber

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But it's food, it's food, it's supermarket food, you know, and they and they meet the car. But they they paid a lot more, and they paid with like like you, you pay taxes with it. So they they have the best jobs in the G economy. And that's why, like the the migration status, really determined

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the the position migrants had, you know, in this labor market.

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which was that

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erez Agmoni, the most vulnerable position, you know, on the full delivery apps with when they use bikes, for example, they also lied about in. I don't know. They they said they. They use spikes 101,

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but they use motorbikes, and and to that they they needed a a driving license by the product driving license. You had to be a regular citizen. You had to be regularized so they couldn't. So the and that's the thing. They, if they had an accident 100, and

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they cannot appeal anything because they were lying, you know, in the in the, you know, and they had another account and borrowed account. So that's the problem with this. In the end. You know all these things because you don't expect that an accident can happen. But it happens.

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and that's where you see the vulnerability and and how migrant workers are

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face much more variabilities than Tian workers in the in this economy.

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Thank you.

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01:19:01.340 --> 01:19:13.090
So Hello, everyone. This is others, Kumar. I'm a I'm a researcher at Frederick Solar University and I in Germany. And today I will be talking about

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the

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okay.

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okay and then I'll be talking about how the migrant worker of color fair in the platform economy. And so the title you may find like I. The title was in just in Uk. But but now it's in Uk and India as we're talking more about.

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wait.

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so we'll be talking about. What's a research problem? What's the research question, what is my lens?

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And what is the method? What is data? And what is the confession from interview. I haven't tried to conclude, but we'll see what conclusion we can find.

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So

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we know that's it's an intensifies and precarious work. And algorithm is a central to its operation and what it is doing, it is changing to the from standard employment relation to non-standard employment relations. So but some people may argue, okay, what about it is

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formalizing the informality like in India, the people who are working in the agricultural sector who were not able to that were, who were not able to be patched, who were not able to have like any social security mimasers. Now they can.

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They can have, for instance, in Uk. workers get holiday benefits. The gig uber drivers get holiday benefits.

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they get, they get sick pay. So on one hand, it is creating non-standard employment relation, but at the same time it is. It is also creating informal sector into the formal sector.

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Let's see.

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But one thing which we got till now is that

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it is. It is the work. It is filled with the immigrant workers, migrant workers or immigrant work immigrants, maybe in the Uk. But migrants workers from like agricultural sector to them, to the cities like in India, is such a big economy. 1.4 billion people

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mostly agreed in economy, people migrating from from agriculture sector, or like a on a construction sector which has been very suppressing, which has been very like dominating less, paying less big bosses, the car system. They have been migrating from there to there. So

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so now now now is it? Is it about the working class itself which will go ahead. We will talk about what is it about working class, a result category of workers. So when we are talking about migrant worker, then we are talking about categories of the workers. So

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so like going going into the theory that like, I'm moving towards the theory like, so so what could. So in in all this scenario the workers does not come just with the labor power he be, but he bring also bring the social, social, political burdens or his identities with him, and that is his, let's say, migrate as a migrant. He's migrant status, his his visa status like. Why, why, a person is migrating from from one place to another place

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because of his social, political conditions. So

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so, what? What is the entire entire analysis is that these things, these? entire relation is embedded into the environment or structure

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which which? So so now that with this knowledge, we we come to this question, that, okay, how migrant workers of color perceive the algorithmic control of the platform economy in case of Uber and India uber in India and the Uk.

401
01:22:30.930 --> 01:22:33.400
So for that we need a conceptual framework.

402
01:22:33.450 --> 01:22:35.940
Oh, that's to what both, though.

403
01:22:36.480 --> 01:22:54.840
But yeah, we'll be. We are seeing the seeing marks. Braver man. So they all the label process labour process theorist as as well as some, some, some people, some some some researchers from varieties of capitalism. So we what we are finding here is like, for one thing is important, that

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identity, nationality and factors from superstructure, matter. subjective diamonds in matter, socio-political conditions and components, matter

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and subjectivity of labor matters.

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And

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and there has been very less work about the institutions and as well as like work coming from global north.

408
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Oh.

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yeah, sorry global south it. And there is an error.

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And about local and transistor institutions. So this is the framework. So there are like 3 levels of framework, micro Meso and macro level. So we talk about like how the employment outcome of the migrant workers are impacted by culture, ideology, cultural and ideological factor, and then intensified personal insecurities, past experiences of unionization, customer rating education, immigration laws.

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01:23:53.690 --> 01:23:57.170
So okay, if we want, we can.

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So what is method and what is data? So. so in 2 of the countries there was 31 interview of workers and interview of 5 unions in Uk 6 months of non participant observation of the chat group of Uber drivers and 3 drivers protest and total 27 interviews of of workers, 6 unions and 2 Protest participants in India has been done for this

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project. So

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now, apart, after going from from like all those messy theoretical things we are going through the confess. And let's see what's what's the confession? As what? What are there? So so So this is from Uk. So wherever there is like a Bangladesh Saudi Arabia. So this is this was based in Uk. So

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one driver from Bangladesh, who was an immigrant, said that some grumpy people like to complain. They just jump into the jump in, even if it's not their business, because they they think we do not know much like I'm in little trade.

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One another person said that some passengers they comment on from where did you come? In a very bad way, mostly drunk people. I tried to complain about it once with Uber. But you know who

417
01:25:12.100 --> 01:25:15.210
Google listens to customer who listens to our complain.

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you just And another person says that you just try to ignore, because, you know, you can't do anything about it as you working. You don't want to lose your job. You don't want to lose your license. Just keep calm, forget the situation, accepting the like injustice, because because they don't have agency to go against it.

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miss. What should they do? You know this? What can. What can you do? What can you do about discrimination? It happens I have learned to deal with it. It's better to be silent and smiling.

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So now we, we talk about customer lead evaluation like it. It goes beyond star rating. It's not just just limited to to the fact that it is it is just star rating. It is more much embedded into the like a structure itself.

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If your Uber driver you, you will have to deal with the stupid passenger who comment on your color country and what what you dress you have to just listen to it and keep quiet.

422
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You have to be professional, to work here to get better ratings. The drivers from India drivers from India in the Uk.

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I keep my car very clean. It's my livelihood. But often some white people, just because they need to complain and tell me that I am not clean.

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I think I think this is their way to downsize us and get some coupons from Uber.

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So another another interview. Thing happened last week I went to pick up a person I reached at the location, but customer called me, saying, I am at wrong location. When I said, Sir, you are at long, he said. It started shouting at me. I don't know how you guys entered into the country. You don't know

426
01:26:59.250 --> 01:27:05.299
the proper English said I was standing at the location, and finally I got one star and called, and a call from Uber.

427
01:27:05.740 --> 01:27:16.530
So now what happens in India? So in India, this is an early stage. So India is a very car structure society where casts play a dominant role in

428
01:27:16.820 --> 01:27:31.510
in every part of life. So 1 one driver said that they judge you by the name on the screen. I am Muslim. Several times passenger asked me to cancel the right when I ask why this is said

429
01:27:31.680 --> 01:27:37.000
they don't want to travel with a Muslim driver like India is complex.

430
01:27:37.540 --> 01:27:41.689
and another person is saying that as a lower cost driver you have to be alert.

431
01:27:41.700 --> 01:27:49.619
Don't tell your cast to anyone. Just write first name in Uber application. If you will keep you shouting about your cast, you will earn less

432
01:27:51.550 --> 01:27:57.470
so. What are the arguments which I have which I have come to now because

433
01:27:58.370 --> 01:28:03.110
so customer evaluation of Uber cannot be just seen as a star rating.

434
01:28:03.480 --> 01:28:06.590
but it is embedded in host and home institutions.

435
01:28:07.990 --> 01:28:29.069
The cultural institution of host significantly impacts the migrants working condition, which is further complicated with the home effect. So you you do not go to the Uk just with your, with your, with your identity, you go with the home baggages.

436
01:28:29.350 --> 01:28:46.300
So you are just. You are also impacted by the institution at home at the host. Similarly you go to From from a small village to to to in in, in, in orthopedes to Delhi. You do not go just with the, with the, with the

437
01:28:46.410 --> 01:28:48.229
what we say with the

438
01:28:48.700 --> 01:28:53.829
with a. with the burden of just earning, you go with a burden of multiple things.

439
01:28:54.980 --> 01:28:58.410
So, for instance, homes. Demand for financial support makes work more submissive.

440
01:28:58.790 --> 01:29:05.389
They need to give money to the parents, they need to earn money, therefore they may avoid conflict and even to operate injustice.

441
01:29:05.860 --> 01:29:12.030
The call is so-called policy behavior. which Uber expects from from drivers

442
01:29:12.480 --> 01:29:20.410
may help vocal successfully, successfully navigate work. In Uber, however, it is saved by education, skill, and concepts into a state mercenary at home.

443
01:29:20.530 --> 01:29:32.990
If you are not educated enough, how will you bring the fullest behavior? You do not know what is about cleaning the car. and what about those training? So you get the training. But those policy behavior itself.

444
01:29:33.470 --> 01:29:51.340
embedded in like education structure. A Uk driver is very highly likely to earn better than a than a driver from let's say from from India, like the agency of a Uk driver with, because he has a visa. He has a everything like he has. He has, like social security benefit. He'll be less scared to to raise his wise.

445
01:29:52.640 --> 01:29:56.879
And another thing is past work, experience, and access to unions.

446
01:30:01.010 --> 01:30:05.040
It. It helps workers to make out an easily an Uber system

447
01:30:05.560 --> 01:30:09.840
where they value freedom and flexibility at the same time value of unionization.

448
01:30:11.070 --> 01:30:16.220
And yeah, because to avoid discrimination, hide their caste or religion.

449
01:30:16.710 --> 01:30:20.979
religious identity, however, they live in a concert, fear of revealing it there after conflict.

450
01:30:22.530 --> 01:30:41.740
So what what we can conclude at this stage? that algorithmic control in a platform or a gig economy is embedded in a focus agency and institutional conferences in his vision within which he or she lives home, and who, host and home institutions save workers resisting capabilities against injustice and her perception of control.

451
01:30:43.080 --> 01:31:02.839
Migrant worker of color from developing economies in the Uk and backward reason in India find it difficult to challenge and difficult and challenging to navigate in Uber. Their skill set education, culture and agiletical factor play and play an important role in making out in Uber and saving their perception of algorithmic control or control in the gig or platform economy.

452
01:31:03.570 --> 01:31:05.410
So, yeah, there are limitations.

453
01:31:05.530 --> 01:31:14.069
Early series of data collection, particularly for India. This is a comparative element is still missing and theorization is yet to go. So yeah.

454
01:31:14.360 --> 01:31:15.340
I think

455
01:31:22.190 --> 01:31:23.610
so.

456
01:31:24.540 --> 01:31:29.369
questions I take over. Can you switch back to the screen?

457
01:31:29.740 --> 01:31:30.710
You know the

458
01:31:31.100 --> 01:31:34.289
stop the screen sharing so we can see the

459
01:31:35.790 --> 01:31:40.799
yes. So then we can see if someone online as a question so questions.

460
01:31:49.970 --> 01:31:51.820
well, I have a comment.

461
01:31:52.220 --> 01:31:53.040
We

462
01:31:53.290 --> 01:31:54.790
I'm so sorry we are okay.

463
01:31:54.840 --> 01:32:05.200
Only 20 min before the end of the conference, and people need to leave. So I have a common question.

464
01:32:06.540 --> 01:32:15.219
2. Actually. So the first one is, you are looking at Uber in India. Okay? Yeah.

465
01:32:15.240 --> 01:32:29.480
And then with your theoretical framework, you listed a lot of these old-wide dudes from Western social theory, which actually surprised me because I would have expected

466
01:32:29.640 --> 01:32:35.420
cast comes through in your data all the time. But you start with

467
01:32:35.820 --> 01:32:58.449
marks, social classes, And so on, so that that that that puzzles me. I think it would strengthen your argument if you would actually at least draw on some, some sociology from from from India on cast, to be honest. So

468
01:32:58.830 --> 01:33:13.019
And that connects to my second question where it comes from this Western perspective of this Western theory, which I think is striking, and that is really interesting. How

469
01:33:13.040 --> 01:33:16.569
my impression from your presentation is that you take

470
01:33:17.380 --> 01:33:19.020
Oh.

471
01:33:19.200 --> 01:33:20.490
a system

472
01:33:20.590 --> 01:33:33.089
that has been evolved and developed in the Western world with with a certain structure of society, and is imported into a caste system.

473
01:33:33.230 --> 01:33:38.580
I think this is part of the story which produces these effects. So I wonder if it

474
01:33:38.610 --> 01:33:59.050
it would make sense, although I'm aware you work at a management department. So, but still I try to pitch it to integrate some some theory of society where you could, for example, distinguish between Western modern Western society, where

475
01:33:59.050 --> 01:34:15.659
you have this mainly functional differentiation, with the effect, for example, that you never know an interaction who the other person is. So I have no idea who you are. I have no idea what your cast is. I have no idea what your background is, and that's a typical thing in Western society.

476
01:34:15.660 --> 01:34:31.770
You don't know that which is an effect of how it is structures, where whereas in a caste, society like India, but they look for the name because the name already tells you something about your your position. So you have a society where you can tell

477
01:34:32.590 --> 01:35:01.429
about the the other person. Oh, he is located somewhere, which is a fundamental difference, I think, from how Western society works, and I wonder if it would help to have a framework actually in this respect, and not this fancy Borough way marks all stuff, and so on. But very valid point, actually, yeah, I agree.

478
01:35:02.810 --> 01:35:26.229
Bringing the subjectivity of researcher is also important. And then, given, I come from a lower cost, so I could not. I could not bring it in. But yeah, definitely, I I can bring other researchers who have been, who have been definitely, who have worked on a class cast as well as intersection of management. I I have been looking on it. But yeah, it's yeah, I will work out. I'll I'll work it out. That's a very, very valuable feedback. Thank you.

479
01:35:28.630 --> 01:35:32.019
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Now the questions come up here first.

480
01:35:34.240 --> 01:35:35.289
I'm going to talk.

481
01:35:36.410 --> 01:35:49.270
Oh, thank you for a nice presentation. So yeah, in my understanding, Uber driver in both India and the Uk

482
01:35:49.270 --> 01:36:13.090
have on average and negative perception to the algebraic algorithmic. Yeah. Management. Yeah. So meanwhile, I guess there might be some drivers thinking of. such system, you know. positively.

483
01:36:13.370 --> 01:36:29.119
or some drivers might be successful in that system. So in comparing the successful and negative cases, your findings.

484
01:36:29.120 --> 01:36:58.760
we're more. You know how? yeah. So, yeah, yeah, all right. By by contrasting the cases, I think so. it's a very well, very, very interesting question. And thanks for that there has. So in I was. I was talking about like informal, informal going to formal means the workers who used to be suppressed under the authority of let's say like we call like.

485
01:36:58.790 --> 01:37:19.360
but third of your bosses, like physical bosses. We used to never allow them go. Don't you don't go for P. Now we have to first work for 6 h now. They have better age and better rights like they they are doing. They are able to do better better off. now, but but it is again complicated, because the resource you need to be in as a Uber driver. This is quite high. You need a car.

486
01:37:19.550 --> 01:37:40.279
At at least you need a something to mortgage to get a get a loan to buy a car, so that resources also makes it very challenging for the people. So but yeah, at the same time, whosoever are able to put effort, like, for instance, a worker who used to paint on the street. He he became an over-rival. He said, said, it's better. It's better that I I can go anytime. I can do anything.

487
01:37:40.320 --> 01:37:53.850
But at the same time the workers who use who are in the car structure still face the same thing. So I am talking about. The control itself is not just like it's not changing the the discrimination itself. It is continuing it.

488
01:37:54.020 --> 01:38:05.280
So it's not about algorithmic control. It's not about algorithm, as a system, but it is about the society itself. Society is is transferring all the all the else in new systems.

489
01:38:07.730 --> 01:38:12.999
okay, thank you. My first question is on

490
01:38:13.060 --> 01:38:18.650
you. I did get it clearly. Are you comparing India?

491
01:38:18.670 --> 01:38:28.600
They started from India and the one in the Uk. And if that's the case, I just wonder if you could explain what is the basis for your comparison.

492
01:38:28.930 --> 01:38:30.600
And then

493
01:38:30.670 --> 01:38:41.530
I also want to hear your views as far as these migrants. What sort of migrants the Indian and the Uk migrants.

494
01:38:41.600 --> 01:38:53.130
if you could elaborate on that, and also their future here, how do they see themselves, their future in this particular

495
01:38:53.240 --> 01:39:00.969
a form of work? And how does it compare with other with other sectors in the economy

496
01:39:01.160 --> 01:39:03.280
and then on the resistance?

497
01:39:03.730 --> 01:39:09.160
How are these workers also trying to

498
01:39:09.460 --> 01:39:22.510
change this particular way of working for the better. What sort of forms of collective organizing or organizations that we see? How are they relating to each other as workers

499
01:39:22.610 --> 01:39:30.280
who are in the same predicament. In a way this, in as far as precariousness is concerned, are there any form of collective

500
01:39:30.460 --> 01:39:32.889
sort of organizations. Thank you.

501
01:39:32.930 --> 01:39:42.160
yeah, those are like lines of questions. So first basis of comparison is like, Uber is a multinational corporation operates in Uk and India.

502
01:39:42.160 --> 01:40:06.229
Another thing is Uber. India and and Uk are closely related country. One is a colonizer and one is a colony, so they have a, they have a, they have a, they have a system, comparative system, like competitive structure itself. Like our our like. Significantly, we are our structure. Label labor policies are is significantly the same way. The problem with the the, the, the, the parliamentary system

503
01:40:06.230 --> 01:40:07.409
is more or less thing.

504
01:40:08.030 --> 01:40:11.590
So another another reason is.

505
01:40:11.880 --> 01:40:21.999
the institutions which we which evolved in the like, which which which are in India, they are very much influenced by Uk because of the because of the colonial history.

506
01:40:22.610 --> 01:40:32.070
So another next question is, it means there are more to go there. There are so many things to go. You ask my entire desertation. By the way.

507
01:40:32.200 --> 01:40:55.649
So another question is, like recollective, like collective resistance? Yes, there is. There is. There is collective reasons emerging in even in India, even in Uk. But yeah, the state level of their collector is is different. In in in the Uk the Uber can break the collectorism immediately they buy the and the the drivers like they buy the Union heads. But in in Uk it's not possible, because the strong institutional forces

508
01:40:55.710 --> 01:41:15.619
they have. They had a strong institutions already existing, we supported which in which which which which which led to led them to bargain for like, let's say, in Supreme Court, 2,002, I think 19. for, like holiday pay and sick benefits, they got like on an average of driver, got 5,000 pounds of back payment areas.

509
01:41:15.620 --> 01:41:26.079
but in the in, in Uk, in any other people are. The drivers are like, despite being, despite they are being laws, despite being, despite being there. So social security codes. They are not being implemented

510
01:41:26.530 --> 01:41:44.810
in India in like and and who's what whatsoever collective organization they are emerged and they are coming up with it is not. It is too much politicize the like. politicians. People like politician and at different actors are meeting to meeting with uber managers on the name of. Okay, we'll give the employment. But what kind of employment it is?

511
01:41:45.180 --> 01:41:57.360
I I'm just coming from India itself. Like I I I use Uber, the drivers to deny that we cannot run the A/C. It was 45°C, and they said, We cannot arrest on the A/C. We cannot afford to run the A/C.

512
01:41:57.380 --> 01:42:06.540
They avoid, and there is a there is a conflict of condition, and then, when they, whenever they have organized. then like, they never could increase the fare itself.

513
01:42:07.450 --> 01:42:12.130
because there is a conditional supply of labor. I think I missed one question

514
01:42:13.940 --> 01:42:15.150
if you

515
01:42:15.910 --> 01:42:40.910
so they see in in Uk in Uk, it's it's very different in in from Uk and India. It's very different in in in Uk, Uk. They can. They can like. It's very rare like that that they can have a bit of like future planning. No, I have never, from all this interview I have asked this question, what is the future plan? They said. We'll stay here. Whatever will come, we'll see from India. No, we don't have any front. This this will go.

516
01:42:40.910 --> 01:42:50.639
so if this will go there will be another outcome. Most of the job which is in Uber. They are for survival. They are not for the accumulation.

517
01:42:50.720 --> 01:42:53.900
their basic minimum survival.

518
01:42:54.240 --> 01:43:02.500
That's very interesting, I will tell you. In India the worker works for 18 h, which gets.

519
01:43:02.610 --> 01:43:13.129
if he is, he has rented the car. He gets not more than ₹700, which is like 7 pounds, and a Uk driver gets around on an average 80 pounds.

520
01:43:13.330 --> 01:43:17.630
But yeah, like, if you compare and purchasing power parity, it will be more or less the same.

521
01:43:19.720 --> 01:43:20.990
Then we

522
01:43:21.400 --> 01:43:25.629
okay, then we have a question online.

523
01:43:27.000 --> 01:43:30.970
Youngrong Lee: Yes, Hi, just a really quick.

524
01:43:31.050 --> 01:43:53.030
Youngrong Lee: comment, I really appreciate your research. I thought it really interesting that I that I I've never thought about, and that I haven't never read. So really, thank you for your this. really interesting events which is linking this immigration issue and their ethnic specific issues right in this case. Ca, and the gig work so.

525
01:43:53.050 --> 01:44:16.970
Youngrong Lee: and then it, it is happening in the developed country, which is a Uk in the case. Right? So I think, since, because it's hints the possible internal conflict between microphone micron individual trigger by this key common, which is already there. But it's really triggered by with this interesting way, right from like we talked about like from telling someone

526
01:44:16.970 --> 01:44:24.829
Youngrong Lee: social position by someone's name. Right? So I think we need to extend the events of one-dimensional

527
01:44:24.830 --> 01:44:48.869
Youngrong Lee: a study that we have seen, a lot of which is like between customers, customers, and the workers, or between platforms and workers. This is really a one-dimensional and that like, in a way, it's a really home. Most nice, right? But you really make that. you add really rich and really unique layers. So I I I want you to thank you for your lens. And then, yeah, great work.

528
01:44:49.060 --> 01:44:53.750
Thank you. It's a work in progress. So I think a bit more to come

529
01:44:55.110 --> 01:44:56.580
anymore. Yeah.

530
01:44:57.850 --> 01:45:04.489
Ok, then I don't see any more questions. So let's thank all for you. Thank you for your presentation.

531
01:45:04.890 --> 01:45:20.640
Thanks a lot. And then please allow me to say a couple of words. So I'm Michael, president of our C, 17, sociology of organization. And well, I have the honor to basically close the A

532
01:45:21.015 --> 01:45:45.830
conference with our program with this great joint session, with our C 31 sociology of migration. So we thank you for that, and I thank all the presenters for great presentations and all the attendance for for joining us. I also want to thank everyone for a great conference in the past days. One thing I also wanted to do is actually thank Megan.

533
01:45:46.490 --> 01:46:06.919
who boldly endured all this organizational talk, although it's really not your field. I think so. thanks for that for the for the great support from you, and also, of course, from your colleagues. But it was mostly you in our set session. So I wanted to acknowledge this as well.

534
01:46:07.500 --> 01:46:17.560
Yeah, we appreciate you. And yeah, I think that's that. If you're interested, please join Rc. 17. Sociology, of course, also

535
01:46:17.570 --> 01:46:20.839
migration. But I'm here like I'm the Rc. 17, Guy.

536
01:46:20.860 --> 01:46:44.179
and please consider our new journal, the Journal of Organizational Sociology. If you are interested. And with that I think I would say, thanks everyone for a great conference, and see you in 2 years, probably at the Forum, wherever it may be. Okay. Thanks a lot.

537
01:46:44.670 --> 01:46:49.000
Times. My.