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And okay. So on behalf of everyone gathering. I pay respect to the spirit of country here in Narm, where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and present Nolan nation. Vrunjidi, why would I? I don't know if I'm so.

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seeing it correctly as the sovereign people here, the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the aboriginal law, customs, and custodian ship responsibilities for country and the people. That country continues

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to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us I recognize the important contribution that first nations thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking.

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We think all first nations delegates in the room today for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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Okay, so so then, should we?

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 so just 1 1

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one remark before we start. Just so this is held by Rc. 35.

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We have our business meeting tomorrow at 7 30 evening. I mean, if you're interested in the work of the Rc. Or very welcome to come. We, I mean, you can participate in person or also virtually. And our research committee has a focus on questions of well, sociological concepts, social theoretical questions.

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also critical theory, and also perspectives that are marginalized within the discipline. Recently we published this book called Decentering Global Sociology. The peripheral turn in social theory and research. And so you're all welcome to participate in the Rc, if you like.

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okay, so having said that, so

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let me just, I'm sorry. Check the or David, do you want to? You want to?

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say something? Should I stop sharing this?

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David Strecker: So? I I wasn't expecting to. But of course, yeah. Well, I already also welcomed everyone to the session. So it's the second part of our sessions on social, which is a hot topic and social theory today. And as this Rc is focused on concepts in the discipline

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David Strecker: and this seems to app to be the adequate place to discuss it. According to the schedule we have, we're going to start with Stephan Scholarski from

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David Strecker:  But yeah, I haven't prepared a much in terms of presentation.

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Okay, yeah. You want to talk about the rise of Populism in the threat to social cohesion. So, Stefan? the floor is yours.

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Stephan Skolarski: Yeah, thank you very much. I hope you can.

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Stephan Skolarski: see my screen. Now, I think everything is fine and works yeah. greeting from to Melbourne. Hello, everyone, and thanks for having me on the session of to social cohesion.

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Stephan Skolarski: And my name is yeah. S. And for introduction, said, my name is Shavan Sculaski, and I'm working at the University of I'm a Phd candidate there and yeah, our presentation deals with the rise of Populism and the threat to social cohesion

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and

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Stephan Skolarski: maybe at the beginning some words to to the current political, social crisis in the world.

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Stephan Skolarski: I think there have been many crisis in the past, especially when we think about Covid and the financial situation of many people in the world. because of Covid, but also the climate change. And of course, maybe some examples from the Uk with the Brexit. They have been many

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Stephan Skolarski: political, social crisis, and we've seen the elections in many countries like in France, with Le Pen, Hungary, Poland, or Italy, where right wing Populist parties came came to the power.

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Stephan Skolarski: and in our project, we focus on a specific dimensions and explanatory concepts of social cohesion. And there we try to analyze secondary data, especially a data from as a so called a social cohesion panel which is conducted in in Germany, and we try to compare specific variables, especially social cohesion.

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Stephan Skolarski: and we try to investigate the relationship to of social cohesion, to populism or other destructive variables.

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Stephan Skolarski: And a second, we try to evaluate relevant concepts and try to measure instruments which have a relationship

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Stephan Skolarski: to a social cohesion. And in our project

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Stephan Skolarski: we have conducted a pre test with the scale of Populism and social cohesion, and that's the starting point of of our project

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Stephan Skolarski: and in our pre test. We even investigated that. For example, there are significant differences in Populist attitudes with regard to age, region, and Germany and education the income, but also the left right scale

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Stephan Skolarski: and Because of this pre test. We decided to use data from the so called research social cohesion panel, which is conducted in Germany, as I said before. And there we are using the first wave of this panel. Yeah. And we try to investigate the relationship between social cohesion and Populism in Germany

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Stephan Skolarski: and

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Stephan Skolarski: some words to Populism. Populism is is a concept which has been discussed in 2,004 by motor. And he said that

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Stephan Skolarski: This concept of Populism explains that the world is divided into an evil and corrupt elite. And yeah, pure and inacent people.

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Stephan Skolarski: And there have, have been some some discussion about the dimensions of populism. The first, it goes back to 2,012, where, Populist attitudes were discussed as a one dimensional construct.

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Stephan Skolarski: But This discussion continued, and in 2,018 there has been a discussion about Populist attitudes at the 2 dimensional construct.

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Stephan Skolarski: and in our paper, and in this presentation we decided to use a so-called 3 dimensional construct of Populism, and there are 3 dimensions of populism. The first one is the so-called anti elitism attitudes, the second one is the dimension of preference for popular sovereignity, and the second as a third one is a belief in the homogeneity of the people.

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Stephan Skolarski: And Now, Some words to the theoretical concept of social cohesion.

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Stephan Skolarski: the concept of so for social cohesion, and our in our mind goes it is.

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Stephan Skolarski: We can explain it. by using ideal concepts of show, social cohesion. And we call it the so called guiding principles of social cohesion. And there we have to 2 dimensions. The first one is a communal traditional, and the second one is a liberal individualistic view on social cohesion.

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Stephan Skolarski: And here we have 2 examples of of this theoretical concept of social cohesion. The first one is an item from from the data set which belongs to the dimension of communal traditional. And it's yeah for me. A good living together in a society means that everyone has a fixed place in society.

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Stephan Skolarski: This is, yeah. As I said before, communal traditional way of thinking, social cohesion. And the second aspect is for me, living well together in a society means that everyone can lift the way they want to. And this is a a Liberal in the what we do realistic way of thinking, social cohesion

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Stephan Skolarski: and the second second data we are using from this data set is the assessment of social cohesion and Germany. And here we have 2 items from the questionnaire. The first one is that the society is falling apart more and more, and the second one is too many cultural differences. Are the Max amazing? the cohesion of Germans?

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Stephan Skolarski: Yeah. And

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Stephan Skolarski: now I come to the research questions in in our presentation on our paper we are working on, and the first one is to what extent to pop a list. Attitudes affect ed else of social cohesion.

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Stephan Skolarski: The second one is, belongs to the assessment of evaluations of social cohesion in Germany. And it's a it's asking to what extent to Populist attitudes effect evaluations of social cohesion in Germany, and at the end we try to investigate how these differences between the different dimensions of Populist attitudes

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Stephan Skolarski: can be analyzed, and are there any differences? And what is important? in when we look at these differences.

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Stephan Skolarski: And yeah, as I said before, we are using data from the so called social social cohesion panel

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Stephan Skolarski: it was conducted from September to so 2,021 to April 2,022. And there were computer assistant personal interviews as survey method and also paper questionnaires. And yeah, for the first waves, the sample size is pretty large. I guess we have more than 17,000

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Stephan Skolarski: respondents, and in the second part of the first ways we have about 9,000 respondents

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Stephan Skolarski: and Now I come to the operationalization of Populism. We are using the so called Populism scale from Schultz, at I from 2,018, and, as I said before.

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Stephan Skolarski: we have 3 dimensions. The first one is this anti Semitism dimension as the second one, the self determination and the third one homogeneity beliefs.

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Stephan Skolarski: and I have 3 3 items, one for

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Stephan Skolarski: every dimension. The first one for anti elitism is Mps. In Parliament very quickly lose touch with ordinary people

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Stephan Skolarski: for self determination. We have the item the people should be asked whenever important decisions are taken. And for the third, I mentioned the item. Or one item is, ordinary people all pull together.

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Stephan Skolarski: Yeah. And we have in total, 9 items and 3 3 items per per dimension.

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Stephan Skolarski: And now I will explain shortly the social cohesion concept and which variables we are using for the for the analysis.

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Stephan Skolarski: And we have 5 ideal conceptions of social cohesion and 2 items per ideal conception. Here are the 5 5 video conceptions of of social cohesion. And I have a short table. With these 5. Here in the middle you can see the 5 dimensions of social cohesion. For example, the first one political decision making, we have these 2

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Stephan Skolarski: to up a side dimensions. First, one communal traditional view on social cohesion, and on the other side, the Liberal India videoistic view on social cohesion. And yeah, we have now 2 items, and we add them together. And then we get this, get this ideal concept of, for example, political decision making.

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Stephan Skolarski: or the second dimension of social cohesion is cultural values, where we have also these 2 upper side. items for every dimension.

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Stephan Skolarski: And yeah, as I explained before, the second second aspect of our model analysis

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Stephan Skolarski: is about assessments of social cohesion. So we are not looking at India concept of social cohesion. This goes more into detail about these specific assessments of social cohesion in Germany. And here we have 4 4 items in the quest questionnaire, where The first one is about, the society is falling apart. Second, one. Cohesion is at risk in Germany.

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Stephan Skolarski: and the certain force goes more into detail about the

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Stephan Skolarski: economic situation, social inequalities, but also cultural differences in Germany. And how do these casual differences or social inequalities affect the cohesion in Germany

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Stephan Skolarski: and to our another analytic strategy and to the models we are using. we're using so called confirmatory factor models, especially for the populism scale. And we yeah, have run some some analysis. And yeah, we ex in mind that the measurement models and the fact to real structure of the models is working for the populism scale.

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Stephan Skolarski: And after that we are estimating structural equation models. We these Populism dimensions as latent

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Stephan Skolarski: latent factors and regress us on the concept of social cohesion. it's a social cohesion concept of of idiots, conceptions, and the assessments of cohesion in Germany.

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Stephan Skolarski: And now I go over to to the first results we have, have estimated from the model. Here we can see on the X-axis the regression coefficients with confidence intervals

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Stephan Skolarski: and the red red color. means that this is a dimension of antiootism. Green. One means homogeneity beliefs, and the blue one is the self determination of of the people.

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Stephan Skolarski: And here on the on the Y-axis, you can see the 5 video concepts of cohesion. First, one social status order and second, one social norm biting. And yeah, as we can see. from these, from these analysis.

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Stephan Skolarski: it's pretty clear that, for example, homogeneity beliefs have a very strong negative influence on on these ideal concepts of social cohesion, but also anti elitism. has very strong effects on on these on these dimensions.

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Stephan Skolarski: And when we remember, I go back to the, to this overview of this table, of this dimensions of social cohesion we can see. on the left side. We have these communal traditional views on social cohesion. And here we have C's on the right side. This liberal individualistic view on social cohesion. And yeah, when I sorry when I go back to the Graphic, we can, for example, see this these negative effects

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Stephan Skolarski: means that there is more an effect on the side of communal use of social cohesion. And when we have positive values, we have effects which tend to the side of of liberal individualistic views on social cohesion

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Stephan Skolarski: and

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Stephan Skolarski: as we can see from the model fit, we have a sca of 9.0 4 3, which is a very good model fit for these kind of models, and as we can also see from a case number, we have more than 15,000 people. So this is a very large number. And

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Stephan Skolarski: is, yeah, pretty interesting to have these results, which are in line, maybe with theoretical theoretical views on social cohesion

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Stephan Skolarski: and the second second model analyst we run was about the specific assessments of social cohesion and Germany. And we here we have pretty clear results where we can see that especially anti elitism has very strong effects

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Stephan Skolarski: on these 4 dimension assessments of social cohesion in Germany, for example, in the dimension or a variable society faults a part here we can see that especially. Yeah, antiootism and all for all questions has very strong effects. Homogeneity beliefs is is very strong for the

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Stephan Skolarski: start. item, cultural differences in Germany.

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Stephan Skolarski: and we can also see that also the model fit. I'm Sca is very good in this model, but also the the case number of nearly 9,000 people is pretty large, and when we think about these results, they are also maybe in line with with

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Stephan Skolarski: with a current current

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Stephan Skolarski: events in in Europe, or especially in Germany, where we can see that they're F has been Populist parties in in many countries in in Europe, and the people say that the the politicians are doing their own thing, and this is a view especially of anti-semitism. And here we see the strong effects of anti-semitism. in these models.

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Stephan Skolarski: Yeah. And to to come to conclude this presentation. we, as I said before, we can see that in the first first Graphics. That was a very mixed picture for these idiots of social cohesion. We could see that homogeneity believes that's a very strong effect, but also anti-semitism has strong effects on these ideal concepts of Populist attitudes in in Germany.

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Stephan Skolarski: and regarding to the third. To the second research question, we can see for the assessments of of social cohesion and Germany that these Populist attitudes effect

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Stephan Skolarski: is effect, especially economic situations in Germany, and that anti-semitism has strong effects on the evaluations of a social cohesion in Germany. And when we take a look at these differences between these 3 dimensions of Populism. We can see that especially homogeneity beliefs have a strong influence on ideal concepts.

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Stephan Skolarski: especially for close social relationships, but also for political decision making and cultural values.

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Stephan Skolarski: And yeah, maybe a short, short outlook for for the paper we are working on, we are thinking about using a scale of of universalistic or traditional attitude patents

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Stephan Skolarski: as to use it as maybe moderating or mediating factor for Populist attitude on social cohesion. This is the first first feedback we got some some weeks ago, and we have also questions about media concerns, some consumption. Maybe this could be an interesting moderating factor of Populism on on social cohesion.

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Stephan Skolarski: And yeah, the third. So

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Stephan Skolarski: idea is, maybe we could contact qualitative interviews to investigate more precise these motives for evaluations of social cohesion in Germany.

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Stephan Skolarski: Yeah. thank you very much for listening. And I'm looking forward to your feedback.

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Thank you, Stefan. so now we're going to hear. Aliyah Klezoglu, I mean, I hope, as from the University of Malaysia, how can social capital be detrimental? An investigation of the Malaysia case, of course. should I share screen?

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Yes.

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Okay, thank you.

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Yeah.

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thank you so much. Good evening, everyone. Thank you so much for coming. My paper is on. My presentation is about the concept of social capital and in the literature how social capital is understanding, understand, and all understood, or also

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it can be other effects. And that might be missed a little bit. So I'm trying to understand what can be other effects of social capital.

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So my case study is Malaysia. I first moved to Malaysia in 2,017, and when I moved there I was amazed by what I saw. Basically, it seemed that there were so many different ethnic groups, Malays, Chinese, Indians, and other ethnic communities, and they all living together.

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It was truly remarkable to witness such co-existence without any apparent conflicts. However, as I spent more time I started, and noticing something peculiar.

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While these groups were living step-by-side, there seemed to be a lack of interaction and integration among them.

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This got me wondering about the reasons behind this segregation and social capital concept, I thought, could provide me some insights about those reasons.

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Okay.

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although it is widely used in a very positive connotation and indicator of social cohesion. I would like to show you that social capital can also maybe be an indicator of segregation. So in this presentation, I would like to discuss the concept of social capital and how it can have negative implications using examples from the Malaysian context.

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According to political scientist, Robert Putnam, a high level of social capital, is characterized by social trust and civic engagement which ultimately contributes to a more coherent society.

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On the other hand, sociologist

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challenges this optimistic view of social capital. He argues that social capital can reinforce existing inequalities and creating exclusive networks that benefit certain individuals

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for groups while marginalizing others. This can lead to a fragmented society where access to resources and opportunities is limited to a privileged few.

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Interestingly, Putnam's theory on social capital is more popular in the literature. There have been many empirical research conducted in different country contexts, suggesting that there is a closed link between social capital and social cohesion.

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But following Borneo's social capital interpretation, I argue that these studies might be missing a point.

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Before we delve into the case study, I should distinguish between the concepts of bonding and bridging social capital.

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bonding social capital refers to the connections and trust within the social group. While bridging social capital relates to connections and trust across different groups, such as Malays and Chinese and Malays or Indians.

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So I will demonstrate that different forms of social capital cause different outcomes.

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So This is my case. Study Malaysia, and the the photo is taken by one of my friends Unus. I would like to give a credit to him. And it's our original photo. It's a very heterogeneous country. The population is here.

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Malays and other indigenous group is 69%. While Chinese is 23% and 7% Indian Malaysians and 1% is other communities. I would like to also point out something here. The census doesn't provide the Malays.

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because actually they distinguish population as local Malaysians and non-local Malaysians and local Malaysians refers to Malays and other indigenous ethnic groups located mostly East Malaysia. They are very small, we can say tribal ethnic groups.

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and, on the other hand, Chinese and Indians. They are referred to non-local. Malaysians! They are mostly migrated to Malaysia during the colonial times, but now, in the third or fourth generations are born and raising in Malaysia. So going back.

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The main ethnic groups, as I said, Chinese, Indians and Malays, Chinese, and Indians are the biggest majority. My the biggest minority, and there are also small, small, small as various ethnic minorities.

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There is also religious diversity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Confucian, Zim Taoism, and other indigenous religions are practicing in Malaysia.

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Okay? I know, I have to pose.

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Okay?

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yeah. The colonial leg legacy and its impact on fostering. in-group solidarity. It is very important, because during the Malaysia is a former British colony, and the similar to the like other British colonial implementations, the divide and rule also implemented in Malaysia, and basically, after independence and Malaysia

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took the same system and continued so the political rule, a politics is dominated by the Malays.

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while the the economic. So sector is mostly like Chinese, are very powerful and dominating the economic sector. So In terms of ethnic. system, there is also the competition between politics and economics. So each ethnic groups are taking their sides in different sectors, and they are also competing in terms of their power.

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So at the national level of social capital.

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I am going to take the Putnam's measures here. So the first one is the organisational membership in Malaysia, as you can see from the graph, they are not very strong, and the organisational membership is quite low. The only we can say the strong one is the religious organisations. but it actually strengths the strength within the religious

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bonds! And so the communal bonds again, because all ethnic communities are divided along ethnic ties as well. Yeah, I mean, Malays are Muslim, Chinese are Buddhist or Christian Indians are Hindu, so it doesn't mean anything that religious organizations have so many members, I mean, it creates the same bonds again and again.

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and trust level. I put some other examples from different countries.

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and and of course, the Denmark finance with an ice, and they have the highest level of social trust.

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and while Singapore, South Korea, and Malaysia, they have more lower levels. but we can say, of course, Denmark, Finn, and Sweden are ethnically more homogeneous countries, South Korea as well. But well, it is surprising a little bit.

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and Malaysia has the lowest level of social trust among them.

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But when the empirical study is concerned, they say that the in-group solidarity among ethnic groups are very high.

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and so it also shows us that there is a there is a strong bonding social capital within ethnic groups. So one of the studies shows that university students shows ethnocentric attitudes towards other student friends and or another study here the majority of the Malaysian Chinese prefer to socialize within their ethnic groups

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and they have their own neighborhoods, and they mostly prefer to stay and or socialize within their networks or the within their neighborhoods. And these all these empirical works actually refer or show us that the bonding social capital within their ethnic community is very high.

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So I also would like to share. This is one of the latest research, and Malaysians overwhelmingly identify themselves with their ethnic identities rather than the national identity. When you ask a Malay, Where are you from? which is what is their ethnic identity? The strongest identity they use is Malay instead of Malaysia. This is, I think, very interesting. I mean, we can maybe understand the Chinese Malaysia, but even Malays are described themselves as Malay instead of Malaysian.

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So this is the part of my master thesis. So the methodology I use is a qualitative methodology. I conducted in depth, semi-structures into semi-structured interviews. In total, I did 21 interviews, and I'm each group represented by 7 participants. the my participants are all academics working in public universities.

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The data collected between 2,018 and 19. I use thematic analysis to for data analysis. And my limitation is that it is a quite urban and West Malaysia context analysis. When you go to the East Malaysia, the social structure, and it's completely different. So it needs another research for East Malaysia.

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So the high group. high in group social capital.

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First, I would like to provide you an overview, and the findings of my research indicates is that high level of social capital acts like a vicious cycle. It creates us by high but and bonding social capital creates more ethnic boundaries, and it that that cause More strong bones, and that creates another like it's like, it's like never ending circle

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and This school system, and also the living spaces in Malaysia are also divided along ethnic lines. So Malaysians have very limited spaces for interaction.

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But this is at the end of the day not allow people to contact with others who are not

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like like So one of the informants told me that he and she was a lecturer in at the University of Malaysia when she asks students to a group for a group activity. Malays choose Malays and Chinese, Chinese Chinese, and the whole class is just divided along ethnic lines for a group activity, and she says she had. She had a so like, it's it's a big struggle for her to mix students within the class.

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and one of the informants share. with me that To build a trust, you need something you need experience. You need places to build that experience, and I would like to quote it here, because I think it is beautiful and beautifully expressed.

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first you have spaces for interaction, then you have trust. How could you build trust?

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Can you trust me by talking? We need experiences. We need to test each other, face the challenges. I grew up in a very multracial area. I always, together with different ethnic groups, I was exposed to different ethnic groups, culture, but not just exposure. I was in the environment that put you in together. So you could build up social networks and social capital across different ethnic groups.

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But unfortunately, now they are losing this opportunity due to decreasing multi-ethnic social settings.

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Another cause of bonding social capital is as Bordeaux. actually was, right. Intergroup revivaleries and social hierarchies.

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The bonding social capital creates competition between ethnic groups over resources

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in the Malaysian context is.

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it is either for political or economic resources. I would like to again quote from one of the informants here. I am not going to read all of it. Don't worry.

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The Malays mostly they want prefer to ruled by a Malay. So the political rule basically should belong to a Malay, not a Chinese, they they never accept it.

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whereas for Chinese it is.

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they want to be in the economic sector, and they want to make like like like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like like always do. But for Malays it is also a little bit contested area, because they also need jobs. They also need resources to build up. So this is one of the areas for competition.

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So another problem is, I think politics and discrimination.

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So basically, all of almost all of the Chinese and Indian participants were complaining about discrimination. for example, one of them is scholarship. State sponsorships or scholarship mostly goes to the Malays or other indigenous groups instead of Chinese and Malaysians, no matter how they were successful.

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And another problem is again connected with the discrimination is ethnic favoritism in workplaces.

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This is

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this is actually not belong to certain. I like almost all of the ethnic groups, are suffering because of that, because each ethnic groups prefer their fellow ethnics. For example, Malays prefer Malays, Indians prefer Indians, Chinese preferred Chinese and for example, when you go to the government sector, most of they were employing I am.

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Employers are Malays, whereas in Chinese, in the economic sector, private sector you cannot find Malay easily, and also they are Malays are also discriminated by Chinese employers because of the strong stereotypes, prejudices, and also their ethnic identity.

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So one of the results, again, is, the national identity is weakening because of this division between ethnic groups.

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Non-malays are less and less belonging to Malaysia, and they feel themselves as Malaysians and One of the Chinese informants again shared with me that some of them are feeling very frustrated, because, no matter how they heart how they work hard.

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At the end of the day they can go nowhere. I mean there is a glass ceiling somewhere, and they can go up. They they just, you know, they know the limit by heart.

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and they have to stay behind that limit. So because of that frustration that makes them very frustrated. And That informants told me that half of his family migrated to Australia or some other Countries could be like so United States, or some of them immigrating to Europe!

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As a result, the consequences of high in group social capital is the inequality between ethnic groups, because political rights of Malays and non-malaised are different and also the economic resources as well. And there is a nepotism problem. They feel discriminated by fellow ethnics.

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and there is a social exclusion. And especially non. Malays, are feeling second-class citizen. So, in conclusion, social capital itself does not indicate social cohesion.

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So we should be aware of social capital's detrimental aspects, and we should ask ourselves which social capital

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as far as my findings concerned. Bonding and bridging social capital should be in balance in a country.

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and social capital's impact on existing inequalities, and their reproduction should be into considerations for scholars.

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Thank you so much.

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Thank you very much. Ali. So yeah, I probably said it again. Wrong. But

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so we're now going to hear Fabio brown Carrasco, the social as normative category. He's from Humboldt University, Berlin.

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Let me stop the slide.

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Hmm.

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okay. And then, should we? Oh, no, he does it there. Right?

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: Right? Thank you very much. to Hi! From Berlin. Everyone.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: just a second. Let me start

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: presentation.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: Just a second.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: All right. Thank you everyone for having me. My topic today will be the Socialist normative category. And yes, I'm a Phd candidate

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: at the. So what I want to do today is

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: to look at sociology and the social and the subtitle is normativity, ambivalence, and tensions.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: So

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: when we look at the social in sociology, we often look. Or we often talk about

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: structure analysis, postal structure analysis, so classical sociological texts usually focus on the and often fixed characteristics of a given social structure.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: Let me just quickly put on a timer. So I stay with the time. Okay?

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: So we either have, for example, organic versus mechanic organizations of society. We have contractual or kinship based organizations.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: feudal, oppressive, versus liberal, egalitarian.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: Or we have social relations that are defined by a labor capital

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: processes. And yeah, all of these

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: basically explanations that are related to how a society is organized in a structural sense.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco:  but we also have other other understandings of the social within social theory.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And I just wanted to look at Karl Polani and his great transformation to through these concepts a bit.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And just yeah, play a bit with concept, so to say.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And therefore, yeah, I want to look at calculation and his market embeddedness. So what actually constitutes the social act or process. and to to Kulani. Up until very recently all economic action used to be invited to an inherently social meaning and function.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: So

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: The economy was always subordinate to the, to the social structure, basically, and was just a subset of society.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: The the rules of the market were dictated by by society and markets were usually reciprocal and reduced for. But if they serve to allocate resources.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and either new, no gain motive, or the profit motive was very, very restricted. And so that is what what Klan you would call market embedded, miss.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and he then argues that with the emergence of capitalism the market starts to outpower the social. and in the end comes comes to dictate its own rules onto onto society.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: But he also says that it is a pendulum that swings back and forth. And so here it's a very strong disembeddedness. I usually followed by attempt to re-imp the market into

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: society.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and when we read Polani and we look between the lines. It seems like embeddedness.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: It's accorded more value than this competitiveness as normatively good.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And it's located within society so

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: yeah, as embedded as being

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: being inherently more social than this embeddedness. And yeah, reversely, this, this could give rise to the question. If.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: for example, predatory financial processes are not also embedded within

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: a social order, elevate a very hierarchical one

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: in. And if the re allocation of wealth and capital, it's not also a social process.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: yeah, but not necessarily a normatively good one. But it just gives rise to the question, what is actually a social social process? And how do we define that? And what what are the normative assumptions? We we link to that.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah, as as I was just explaining, the the social often comes to be seen as anti-hierarchical and egalitarian.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and this seems to be a normative and semantic bias towards market embeddedness

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: as grounded in social reality and based on notions of conv reality. and there seems to be a conflation of this notion of the social and the normatively good. But it could also very well be argued

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: that disembeddedness is equally an expression of social structures. But here, once, where power relations are shifted in favor of the dominant classes.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: so that disembeddedness is also a very social process that just favors a very distinct group.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah, this embeddedness and embeddedness could therefore be read as shifts in social power relations. But both can be argued to be inherently social. even when social relations are expressed through market mechanisms.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: one could argue that the market is not necessarily a non-social entity approaching on or outpowering the social.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: but rather a tool that establishes and maintains and or expands certain social relations.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and maybe within liberal democracy and capitalism.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco:  this is a capitalism. It's just a social process

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: of domination with within that system.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And to look a bit further, we'll come back to Polani in a second.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: so basically.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: I'm attempting 2 things. One is to look at the social within social theory and within classical social theory.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: going back to the example of Karl Polan, and then also looking a bit further at the current boundaries of of concepts of the social.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And so when we look at the social today. It seems that that the boundaries of what actually is social becoming alert more and more.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and the fact of global interdependence for once really enhances that process. If if we look at all this back and this risk, society back basically argues that

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: the the fact of global interdependence creates a system in which we produce risk and are exposed to risk.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: without even necessarily being aware of where this risk is produced, how it might come back to us. And this basically creates a

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: the massive social system that

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: isn't in the strictest sense social. So solution, for example. is something that we might not have thought of as social a few decades ago. But now it is very clear that

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: pollution we create, or pollution that is created somewhere else. affects us and everyone else.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah, it just constitutes a a social fact. And so

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: through the illnesses that, for example, I created also the COVID-19 pandemic showed us how how the social needs to be restored and how the whole world is basically interdependent, even though we might not be aware of of all these dependencies.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and more over it could even be argued that an out world is so altered by human interventions. landscapes, geology, the concentration of chemicals, the transformation of flora and fauna.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: that even what we consider non-human is essentially social.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: by now.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: so that the natural world we encountered today, or what we think of as the natural world. It's not necessarily natural in that sense, but is deeply altered by by human action, and is therefore also

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: social. And so in the the age of humankind. the social seems to be spilling into formally non-social realms

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: these theories that, of course, address this, for example, at the network you read goes into a very similar direction. even though it has a very peculiar understanding of

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: agency within this network.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and we don't necessarily need to go into that debate. Excuse me.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: But yeah, just to to showcase how how frail, so to say, the the of the social has become and how

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: how it

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: maybe needs to be expanded on on a on a big scale to actually make sense of all these processes.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco:  then let's get to one of the bigger of these processes.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: This slide is called Long Duve, and the hypoth and hyper objects, climate change and the social. So when we look at these in

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: interdependent, large-scale processes that humans in relationship to the Earth system.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: are are engaged with or or have cost.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: Then climate change clearly stands out. and climate change is so big effect that it could be categorized as a hyper object. which is a fact so large that it is

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: very hard to be properly comprehended, or maybe it's even impossible to properly comprehend in all its aspects.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: So how do we, for example, sociologically assess a process that also the social life and the material basis of all generations, to become both human and non-human.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: So how do we

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: the arise process that will change life for all life to come from this point onwards.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco:  I think that

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: that hasn't really found its way into social theory yet. and definitely shoot. And we seem to be at a point where the the future seems a danger of being overdefined by the past, which is our present.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: So, of course, in history and human history path, dependency is always a given. so certain actions just give a disposition for other actions to follow

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and narrow the the possibility. But it seems like we've never been at a point in time where we are about to limit the

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: the possibilities for future action. So drastically as we are with climate change. And yes, how? How do we incorporate this into into the way we think?

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and yeah, it's it becomes ever more clear that that the old assumption that the environment is irrelevant to human history

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: is is outdated

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and we seem to be in a very intense exchange

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: with what we call the environment or nature of the system. and that

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: maybe this is also a social process. How does the Earth system intact with humans and and vice versa.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: is by now social, I would argue. let me quickly keep an eye on the time. All right.

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Yeah. I mean, you have 3 more minutes or a little bit longer, if you like. Yeah.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: right? So

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: what is the the point of all of this?

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And the point, is it? This isn't conclusive at all. It or rather wants to point to friction points and

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possibilities for reconciliation.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah, as I said, maybe this dual analysis may be concerts of the social within social theory that exists. And my example here was was Karpolami.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: So how do we grasp

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the social in theory? And I just found it interesting that

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: that in Polani's work there seem to be this ambivalence.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: regarding what social actually means, what is a social process is a social process necessarily good? Or can the social process also be corrosive in a sense? But wouldn't it still be a social process?

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And then, on the other hand, the other approach is also to from the present moment. In time

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Fabio Braun Carrasco:  look outwards and see where

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: current understandings of what is social maybe have reached the limits and

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: why they, they might need to be resort, and

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: how we might. or how we need to incorporate

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: the realization that we part of this Earth system and that we interact with it. How this

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: might change conceptual understandings. And so yeah, it seems that understandings of the social ups to change and become much broader. And

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: yeah, what I was just referring to the social often seems to be the normative in a sense.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: maybe we need to start looking at social processes, in, in relation to power

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and to power relations, and maybe read them through that lens. So within liberal democracy and capitalism. what does actually market this embeddedness do? Is it not a

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: the mechanism to maintain power in a system that is not futile anymore, but that is based on on mass politics, so to say.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And then maybe we understand the social processes

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: of this embedded market back to.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah, I've said this before. But as the distinction between the human and the non-human world blurs. so does the division between the social and the non-social.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah, this was just maybe an a little exploration, and I'm very much looking forward to give some feedback on it. Thank you very much.

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Thank you, Fabio. Now we're going to listen to Gustavo Lima, I'silva from the University of San Paulo. He's going to talk about a phenomenology of injustice. Irons Marin Young, on the experiential experiential grounds of critique

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Gustavo, the floor is yours.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Thank you very much. greetings from so Paulo, everyone

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: My name is Gustavo.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I am a Phd. Candidate in the Department of political science of the University of San Paulo.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: And I would like to think, I would end up with for welcoming my presentation

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva:  And I'm not gonna say anything today about social cohesion, even though Irish Marginia has a lot to say about that.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: And I deal with it in my dissertation. But I think originally my presentation was supposed to be in the session on phenomenology and critical period.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So it's gonna be more about that, even though I got re allocated to this one, and

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I hope we can have a

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: productive discussion even though my team is different from the others. So since my

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: work is on political theory and English is not my first language, and my language skills are not really sharp. In the at the moment I thought it would share a screen with some of my text. And then I can quote and read some parts with you guys.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So let's see if this works.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I hope it's okay.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So in this presentation, which is called the phenomenology of injustice, I was marry, and you know, on the experiential grounds of critique.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I would try to make 3 points The first one would be a working definition of what I take to be critical theory, and the promise it makes, or the the question it asks for the ones practicing it.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: The second one would be my view or my interpretation of a certain tension I identify and dramatize in Irish Marin Young's work.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: And the third one would be, how phenomenology acts

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in her theory, and what role does it take to answer this question or this premise that, I take to be one of the main focuses of critical theory.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So let's see if I can make it to the end. But I think at least 2 of these points I can deal with in

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: 15 min. So I start with the working definition of what I take to be critical to risk promise. So the empirical grounding of normative reflection represents one of the main characteristics of critical social theory.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: In the philosophical texts affiliated with this tradition, there is an effort to establish a distinctive dialectic between eminence and transcendence, which is expressed through a gap or into interval to be preserved between norms and the social context that get that gets that give rise to them.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: The orientation towards the emancipation in the critical tradition depends on a dialectical openness in which a kind of surplus of normative validity is assumed about immediate social reality in a way that does not lose sight of the reflective and historically rooted nature of the activity of the theorists herself.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: This reflective character of critical social theory is expressed through a commitment. that the perspectives and the social experiences of the subjects victimized by processes of oppression, domination, and exclusion, are in a certain way represented in philosophical terms.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: In other words, the theorist perspective should be related in a dialogical manner to the perspectives of the of the social actors themselves. In this dialogue the establishment of an a priori hierarchy

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: between these different perspectives should not occur.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So this is in a way, what I take to be what critically read promises which is to represent in a certain way the social perspectives of the press, or to dominate it.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: But in my dissertation I try to to

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: analyze how habit, Makuza, and then how they must, and then on it Failed to live up to this promise.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: and then I go to the work of Arizona and young as a promising way of dealing with this question.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So I will present the way I'm trying to read her here, just to give you guys a a feel of what I'm trying to do

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: with her on texts? I was marrying. Young's political reflections came from 2 fundamental to radical orientations that characterize her entire philosophical project.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Firstly, there is a refusal to guide her political thinking according to what she calls both the logic of identity which denotes, among other things, the search for a comma substrate the abstract, for everything belonging to a particular category.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: More specifically, it refers to a particular mode of sense making that operates in terms of substance rather than relation or process.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: as a cost consequence of treating social entities in the world in terms of substance, that is, in terms of permanence, of fixity. Yang points out the serious risk of their polarization, attributing to them a dogmatic core immune to criticism and intentional transformation.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So her first commitment is to then, is to this negation of the logic of identity.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: and the second would be Her affiliation with the tradition of critical social theory, which in her understanding constitutes a normative reflection that is historically and socially contextualized.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: In other words, it is a mode of discourse, the projects, normative possibilities and realized but felt in a particular social reality.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: It combines the means of theological requirement, of attentive listening, dedicated to quote, hearing the Christ of suffering and the stress end quote

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: from a particular social context with the participatory interest interests directed toward overcoming their broader and most influential costs, the broader and most influential causes of this price of suffering and distress.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So this is her definition of critical theory, and of this practice of

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: attentive listening, or what I call in my work and ethics of listening. So I would like to quote Young. Here

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: normative reflection arises from hearing a cry of suffering or distrust, or feeling the stress oneself.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: The philosopher is always socially situated, and if this society is is divided by oppression, she either reinforces or struggles against them

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: with an emancipatory interest.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: The philosopher apprehends, given social circumstances not merely in contemplation, but with passion.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: The given is experienced in relation to desire the desired. The desire to be happy creates the distance. The negation that opens the space for criticism of what is

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: this? Critical distance does not occur on the basis of some previously discovered rational idea of the good or the just. On the contrary, the ideas of the good and the just arise from desire, from the desiring negation that action brings to what is given.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So this demand for attentive listening leads Young to consider the insurgent voices of everyday discourses of injustice in their specific touch. Socially historical situation.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: More specifically, she states that the philosophical starting point of her work is rooted in the ideas and experiences of social movements that flourished in the United States between the 1960 S. And the 1970 s.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: This connection to the agenda of the social movements of her time directly shapes the objectives of her theoretical reflection. Quote, my aim is to express regularly and reflect, reflect

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: some of the claims about justice and injustice, in place it in the politics of this movements, and to explore their meaning and implication.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: This is not a passive act of listening, but rather an acknowledgment that the appeal to justice is always situated in concrete social and political practices that precede and surpass the philosopher.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: In this formula. Philosophical reflection occupies an intermediary position, receiving impulses and knowledge from concrete social, political practices, but returning them to society in a distinct way, after theoretical elaboration.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in other words, by asserting that demand for justice precede and surpass. The philosopher. Yang situates normative elaboration on justice as a discourse in which philosophy participates, but does not solely initiate or conclude.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva:  so this is what I take to be detention that I identify and try to dramatize in these 2

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: approaches that you have the approach

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: to critical social theory, and the approach to this philosophy of of difference, or the negation of the logic of identity

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in the particular context in which Young was writing. The demand for listening brings her closer to what she intended, impressive in principle to avoid the logic of identity.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: that is to say, many of the claims for justice embraced by the insurgent voices of her time, the movements of the sixties, and started this assert an identity identity link to the communities to which they belong, and primarily any place itself, understanding that aligns them with substantial versions of social groups

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in the out of those words, quote in their efforts to uncover the specifics of their social group positions and forge relationships of solidarity. Among those who occupy a similar social position the group social movements themselves have sometimes exhibit this essentializing tendencies.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So what I'm saying is, she starts from a point where she tries to deny the logic of identity, but at the same time she is listening to social movements, and her philosophical starting point is in listening social movement that express themselves through this logic of identity or identity politics, if you will not, in a way of

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: unknown Marxist identity politics, but more in a way of the original sense. For the River collective, for example.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: then, how much time do I have? Sorry. about

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for 3 min?

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A little bit. Yeah.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Yeah. Okay.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So mindful of issues of difference in her terrific justice, and in our democratic theory the author is equally concerned with not allowing the phenomenal phenomenal logical dimension of her critical project give way to this essentially tensions.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: considering this, that Co inclination towards listening, we can. So what I'm trying to do here is

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: this aspect of her work in which listening plays a great part

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: is realized either with the 8 of

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: the agenda of the

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: social movements of her time, or to the to the practice or the reading of phenomenology. So she is trying to answer to that promise of critical theory

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: of representing the social experiences and perspectives of social actors themselves. true listening

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: to experiences first hand, or to relay them in social, in phenomenological exercises, or to reading a other phenomenon, or just such as fun on or

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: and then, in this last part of my work, I try to

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: relay

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: the role phenomenology place in her

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: or texts. So, considering this ethical inclination towards listening, we can initially characterize the function of the phenomenological dimension of young critical theory as evocative or expressive.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: whether through the development of her own tags on women's women's embodied experience, or to the mobilization of phenomenological rights, but by other others, such as funnel.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Young 6. 6. To land her voice to experiences of sexual sufferings, suffering, and exclusion, as well as belonging and intimacy that can be politically and or not to normatively mobilized

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in on female body experience, for example, the author tell us that the expressive function of her phenomenological practice is always articulated with an exercise of social critique that exposes them in ways in which agency and opportunities for women are restricted by social norms that regulate bodily behavior

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in Young's work. Phenomenology should be understood as a tool for investigated. The upverse, or the lift dimension of individuals relates in relation to the social structure and institution that reproduce gender, race and sexuality. For example.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: thus, when evoking female body like experience, it is important to bear in mind that young starts from the heuristic assumption that such experiences are are simultaneously idiosyncratic and general.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: They are not invoked as universal truth, express expressing a common essence of women, for example, but a situational variations of feelings and agency of individuals who are involuntarily situated within a social structure that perpetuates itself over time through a series of practices and institution, and one of these institutions she pays most attention to is the

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: sexual division of labor.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva:  so she states about phenomenology that after reading

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: we cannot succumb to the innocence of the living that phenomenology can unveil a pure embodied experience prior to ideology and science. However, even if we concede, as young does, that the subject is discursively constituted and shaped by institutionalized practices.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Their experiences and feelings do hold meaning despite being idiosyncratic. Such experiences can review politically relevant forms of suffering and possibilities of resistance as they are necessarily historically and socially constructed.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Thus, for the author, phenomenology represents the relevance approach to thinking critically about society as it seeks to express from the standpoint of the constituted subjects, experience in order to complement, but not duplicate, observational or interpretive methods

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: conceived in this way, phenomenology is instantiated by young as a tool, with a democratizing impulse for theoretical analysis as it challenges contests or complements the structure.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: structural or institutional, analytical framework. Indeed, it embodies the fact that normativity and politics always precede and surpass philosophical activity. Just since justice

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in the first part, so that the sociological diagnosis and political agendas cannot be constructed a priori or top down, ignoring the ways in which structures up in justice are experienced by the dominated India press.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Thank you.

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Thank you very much, Gustavo, and now we have time for questions. So comments. Who would like to

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save something?

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Okay, David. you raise your hand?

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David Strecker: I I did, and I can't see the room from here, so please drop me. I have

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David Strecker: many, many questions for at everyone. so please, please do interrupt me, and that just to start out. I actually, as I said, questions for everyone first as Stephan, if I may

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David Strecker: the minor and a major question. The minor one concerns the 2 dimensions of traditional versus liberal individualist conceptualization of a cohesion. I wonder whether

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David Strecker: it is actually.

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David Strecker: I'm convincing to only have these 2

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David Strecker: the dimensions which

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David Strecker: in my impressions seem to equate the liberal understanding with an economic, liberal understanding right? You could also have more Socialist individual understandings. which?

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David Strecker: then, for example, would not equate meritocratic attitudes with this kind of individualist notion of social collusion. So I just wonder. That's the minor question whether it is convincing or not actually distorting the analysis of your material if you press it into these 2 categories. The major question, however, is.

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David Strecker: why or what role the notion of social cohesion

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David Strecker: what what work does it do in your argument? I mean, currently, what we have those emphasis on studying social cohesion. However, I really wondered what would change if you would have used concepts like well integrated well orders, maybe even just

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David Strecker: whatever that. What is the the added value of social cohesion? And the reason for why I'm asking this question is that I have the impression that in the discourse on social collusion there is

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David Strecker: some ideological moment at work, namely.

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David Strecker: emphasizing subject-centered solutions to what is perceived as the crisis which gave rise to the discourse on social media and individualizing responsibility. emphasizing attitudes and actions, instead of focusing on social structures.

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David Strecker: on functional relations of society. it is. It's just a peer I have with regard to the discourse on social collusion.

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David Strecker: so could that not be avoided if using other concepts which are better established and social theory, like social integration or societal integration, which also would to focus on the systems level and then connected to this is actually the final presentation we have by and Gustavo, if I may.

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David Strecker: and if I, if I understand what you did, was at an outline the method

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David Strecker: for understanding what a

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David Strecker: cohesive

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David Strecker: society would be, a a society that would be just, and so far as it would at least not suppress conflict. Allow for voice.

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David Strecker: Which again connect to the question to Stefan.

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David Strecker: what would change if we would use something like well ordered society, just society. But the question here is, in how far is conflict the moment of a cohesive, or in essential aspect of a piece of society? A. And would that not be a direct implication of your analysis of the tensions? And Iris again? Maybe I'm not stop here for the moment, because I do have further questions for the other presenters. But those put together quite well so far.

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Stephan Skolarski: Yeah, thank you very much for your questions. I would start if it's what's okay? yeah. And thank you very much for for all presenters. I think this was a very interesting session today. And yeah, maybe to to answer your, your first question about this 2 dimensions of traditional versus was communal or liberal individualistic views on social cohesion.

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Stephan Skolarski: we are doing. Yeah, as a quantitative method or analysis. So we are into, we are limited. Or maybe we need a reduction of theoretical concepts. And we have only these items in our questionnaire. So yeah, this is, of course. maybe we can discuss this and discusses that this liberal individualistic views and this

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Stephan Skolarski: communal use on social cohesion, and maybe not not enough.

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Stephan Skolarski: But of course we have this large data set of 15,000 people in Germany. So in, I think it's represented for this

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Stephan Skolarski: idea of social cohesion. And but yeah, we we will think about this using maybe other data sets, or maybe other items in the in the social cohesion panel

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Stephan Skolarski: and maybe to your so to your second question, the notion of a social cohesion. again, here, yeah, we have to reduce this this model, because it, it's maybe too complex to use all of your ideas. maybe social integration you mentioned as as a concept of social cohesion. And also in the second

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Stephan Skolarski: second presentation, today I heard this idea of a social capital which was a very interesting idea, I I guess, to use as indicator for social cohesion. and we would like to do this, of course, but of course we are limited to to the data or to the questions we have in the data set. But yeah, as I, as I mentioned at the end of of my presentation, we have

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Stephan Skolarski: ideas of using universalistic values or traditional values as maybe moderating factors for so for social cohesion. yeah. thank you again for your for your questions. And feedback.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So

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sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, please.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Okay.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: thank you for your question. Yes, it's exactly that I was trying to

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: discern, and that my methodology Arizona uses and try to find this tension between

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: this imperative of attentive listening versus

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: her affiliation to a philosophy of of difference or a negation to the logic of identity. How these 2 clash in her

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: thought. And you're right. What she's trying to do actually is come up with a notion of social cohesion of, or of a just society.

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: that there's an a deer to either of the polls that Stefan described in his presentation. that is just trying to think about justice, not in a liberal, individualistic way, but also not in a communal, communitarian, or

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: to the notion of the community. or normative. right deal is the city, the city live, which is neither a community, a homogeneous community, nor

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: a place where there are only individuals. So she is trying to think about groups, not in a communitarian way. And this tension I identify is what kind of puts that motion? So yes, I think

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: maybe I

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I was able to

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Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: give you that impression. But it it is correct

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this?

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so David and Fab, you, you can. You can continue if you like. I mean, so far, or does anyone want to raise a point here.

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Okay, so, David. the

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David Strecker: if you want to go ahead and have you, maybe

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maybe start Yup.

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: All right. I just have a quick question for Stefan as well. yeah, I'm since I'm currently working on far right movements, I'd be interested to hear a bit about your sample

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Fabio Braun Carrasco: and yeah, how how did you

440
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Fabio Braun Carrasco:  choose the sample? Is there? Are there any

441
01:24:18.670 --> 01:24:26.639
Fabio Braun Carrasco: any qualifications for being a participant in the sample? Yeah, what does it look like in general, I'd be quite interested.

442
01:24:27.060 --> 01:24:33.400
Stephan Skolarski: Yeah, thank you very much for for your question. It's a yeah population sample

443
01:24:33.420 --> 01:24:45.559
Stephan Skolarski: with more than 15,000 people in Germany, and the people were asked by by a paper questionnaire and computer assistant interviews.

444
01:24:45.590 --> 01:25:07.420
Stephan Skolarski: And yeah, it's the general idea of this panel which is conducted in in in Bremen, here in Germany is, yeah. The topic is social cohesion, and Germany and all concepts which are related to social cohesion. For example, Populism or Universalism tread for theistic or yeah.

445
01:25:07.420 --> 01:25:19.189
Stephan Skolarski: or social demographic variables. yeah. But I can, of course, send you an an overview of the data. Of course, a link or

446
01:25:19.190 --> 01:25:31.420
Stephan Skolarski: or via email. I can send you an overview of the data yeah, but it's called social cohesion panel, and it's conducted by the Research Center for social Cohesion versus, which is a

447
01:25:31.580 --> 01:25:37.379
Stephan Skolarski: project here in Germany at several universities.

448
01:25:40.210 --> 01:25:41.370
Fabio Braun Carrasco: Thank you

449
01:25:50.790 --> 01:26:14.369
David Strecker: there, there's you, and there's you and Gustavo, too. Okay? And I, I would like to pull some questions to. Yeah. But go ahead first, if I may first just a quick follow up. Send me to Stefan. My point was not that you'd need more items, different questions, etc. It's that the framework, the categories you're using to analyze them.

450
01:26:14.390 --> 01:26:24.740
David Strecker: I feel, may distort the the material, and so far as analyzing them along these 2 categories.

451
01:26:24.990 --> 01:26:26.370
David Strecker: traditional.

452
01:26:26.790 --> 01:26:40.100
David Strecker: communal, and a individualist Liberal misses the possibility of something like a liberal solidarity or so and it something that

453
01:26:40.570 --> 01:26:47.369
David Strecker: I mean Liberal individualist, has this tendency to be understood in capitalist terms, and

454
01:26:47.430 --> 01:26:53.410
David Strecker: communal has the tendency to be understood in authoritarian terms.

455
01:26:53.510 --> 01:27:08.389
David Strecker: the way it's conceptualized. And I it was just trying to say that that's not necessarily a an implication of the answers. There could be something different. Okay, so that was the quick. Follow up here, then, with regard to

456
01:27:08.800 --> 01:27:26.400
David Strecker:  there is something. But I do take an issue here. Actually, it follows from the discussion we have yesterday, and how to analyze the social and what what social collusion be? and how far is the social as such? Normative?

457
01:27:26.420 --> 01:27:46.010
David Strecker: and I had the feeling you might be conflating 2 aspects here. I mean, some of your arguments showed that the social is something that is not natural or like could be different, and I know somehow follows from what people do, That's how relations get reproduced.

458
01:27:46.120 --> 01:28:00.810
David Strecker: But that is different from being connected to intentions and being normative. And that way. which is why I think we need to analyze the social and such a way that we also.

459
01:28:00.880 --> 01:28:08.730
David Strecker: do not full trade to the danger I just mentioned that I feel comes with the notion of social cohesion, namely.

460
01:28:08.880 --> 01:28:14.860
David Strecker: not to get a graph on a functional relations.

461
01:28:14.930 --> 01:28:20.300
David Strecker: right? what what I mean, look at the Marxist critique

462
01:28:20.380 --> 01:28:24.100
David Strecker: where the problem is not the exploiter on, you

463
01:28:24.320 --> 01:28:33.150
David Strecker: could say, of course. Well, in many cases the problem is to exploit it right? It's it's power relations, and we we should not lose sight of them.

464
01:28:33.230 --> 01:28:40.590
David Strecker: I completely agree, however, in some cases the problem is that the system produces exploit

465
01:28:40.760 --> 01:28:55.450
David Strecker: and critiquing some exploit or wouldn't change anything because you just replace them by a new one. So it's on this, the level of systems integration where we have the issues, and that is something that can only be grasped at. Say, if we have

466
01:28:55.720 --> 01:29:10.129
David Strecker: some method to conceptualize non-normative aspects of the social? So how would you integrate that? Maybe I'll stop here because I then also do have a question for Alia. But that is a bit different.

467
01:29:10.550 --> 01:29:15.209
But maybe David, maybe we could. We collect. I have also a question.

468
01:29:15.410 --> 01:29:17.660
Yeah, also.

469
01:29:18.050 --> 01:29:27.079
David Strecker: Yeah. Maybe they both Fab you and a leak and answer your question. Okay? Then, then I'll then I'll add the question for Elliott.

470
01:29:27.100 --> 01:29:36.609
David Strecker: Oh, thanks a lot for the presentation, I mean As far as I understood you. I'm not sure whether you actually said that

471
01:29:37.530 --> 01:29:57.010
David Strecker: social capital is detrimental to social core, usual, or rather that the specific form of social capital, namely, bonding versus bridging social capital would be that det detrimental? So the question for social how to

472
01:29:57.080 --> 01:30:04.679
David Strecker: kind of foster bridging versus bonding social capital.

473
01:30:04.800 --> 01:30:27.829
David Strecker: but a and maybe you can just explain a bit more here. I did not get the a role of the reference to both your in your presentation, and so far as the notion of social capital and Putnam is refers to an aspect of a collectivities. Right? It's it's it's reasons.

474
01:30:27.860 --> 01:30:34.999
David Strecker: Regions have social capital. And while in both you and it's it's a feature of individuals

475
01:30:35.070 --> 01:30:51.530
David Strecker: individuals can accumulate social capital. so I I was just on here about that. The more important question is whether it was actually a critique of social capital, or whether it was a critique of a specific kind of social apple, which would then mean

476
01:30:51.570 --> 01:30:53.820
David Strecker: social cohesion in

477
01:30:54.020 --> 01:31:05.680
David Strecker: in terms of A social integration of well integrated society would require more bond. As for a more bridging instead of funding social capital. Thank you.

478
01:31:06.040 --> 01:31:21.780
Thank you so much, David. Actually, my critic is more towards the literature, because in the literature bonding capital is not considered as a negative, or is like a detrimental capital.

479
01:31:21.790 --> 01:31:37.869
And mostly it's just considered as social capital and not divided at bold bonding and bridging social capital per se. So I want to say that social capital is a general concept is not, I think, enough.

480
01:31:37.870 --> 01:31:56.980
So we need to, maybe we need to divide it as bonding and bridging. And so we should look at the society in terms of bonding social capital measurements. Maybe we can say that and also bridging social capital because they both can be quite different.

481
01:31:56.980 --> 01:32:20.440
one. Society can, both bonding and bridging social capital at a quite like a if they say it's we say it's like a 50 50. It's like, could be an ideal level. But if a community has a 90% bonding social capital. But a 10% is. And like a bridging social capital, we cannot say that is a well integrated society, but it's a well

482
01:32:20.440 --> 01:32:30.729
compartmentalized society. So my criticism is more towards the literature instead of the concept itself.

483
01:32:32.800 --> 01:32:38.340
yeah, so sure. Sure there's 1 one direct comment or question here.

484
01:32:40.430 --> 01:32:44.520
thanks. Yeah, yeah, we can hear you. Okay, yeah.

485
01:32:44.730 --> 01:33:06.189
it's very interesting this negative dimension of social capital. But maybe that's a certain type of social capital. So I would like to ask you, how is that social capital.

486
01:33:06.610 --> 01:33:12.050
so that those consequences have also negative consequences?

487
01:33:12.190 --> 01:33:35.080
Oh, well, which are the I I don't know which is the way of which it is. And David pointed out a quite good point. This system, the structure, instead of accusing the word or the concept. We we need to look back to the system and the structure. So I think bonding capital refers to the I mean it force us to look at the structure.

488
01:33:35.080 --> 01:33:44.359
So it's it's a type of social capital. It's it's almost the same. But each social capital, each. the network system, the trust

489
01:33:44.360 --> 01:33:48.400
or the like. A engagement with other communities.

490
01:33:48.400 --> 01:34:13.100
act differently in different structures. So let's say in in a well cohesive society. People have connections with different ethnic groups or with different social groups, and it creates bridging social capital. But within the same society, if certain ethnic groups or certain social groups cannot connect it with other

491
01:34:13.240 --> 01:34:14.510
social groups.

492
01:34:14.790 --> 01:34:35.950
and then they just, you know, squeeze into their like, and like, as Putnam says, Hunker, down to their own ethnic or social groups, it create bonding social capital and it. We cannot say that I mean within that. So that community, if you measure social capital, it will be quite high. But when we look at this structure

493
01:34:36.130 --> 01:34:37.449
or the system.

494
01:34:37.920 --> 01:34:49.109
it's not cohesive. They just, you know, they they they just, you know, they separated themselves from the society, so we cannot say that they are well integrated. So that was my point. Actually.

495
01:34:49.260 --> 01:34:52.250
it's more looking at the system and the structure.

496
01:34:52.560 --> 01:34:59.319
Yes, but maybe maybe I'm sorry. Maybe we hear fabulous answer. Then I get to work. Okay

497
01:35:00.650 --> 01:35:14.470
Fabio Braun Carrasco: to that. Yeah, right? And I think I understood your question. But If I'm going in the wrong direction, please stop me, David. I absolutely see your point, and I agree. I would maybe there.

498
01:35:14.750 --> 01:35:26.830
Fabio Braun Carrasco: regarding the systems, maybe look at the at the intersection of of state and the society. Maybe. How does the State codify the system into

499
01:35:27.000 --> 01:35:30.070
Fabio Braun Carrasco: workable law that regulates

500
01:35:30.190 --> 01:35:40.290
Fabio Braun Carrasco: this system, that it is true, if you get rid of one exploit, that the next one pops up immediately, basically, so that the system in itself sustains.

501
01:35:40.680 --> 01:35:55.529
Fabio Braun Carrasco: sustains the exploitation. But yeah, maybe it would there be interesting to look at how these things are supported by ideology and legal economic systems, such as uphold the system.

502
01:35:55.810 --> 01:36:00.349
Fabio Braun Carrasco: maybe in that direction. Let's try to answer your question.

503
01:36:02.040 --> 01:36:05.439
Okay, thank you. So now we have one more question here.

504
01:36:07.710 --> 01:36:12.329
And there's a question, by Gustavo, right? As well, we can maybe collect them.

505
01:36:12.730 --> 01:36:15.160
Thank you very much

506
01:36:15.490 --> 01:36:24.710
for the opportunity. I think I do get what she was trying to explain. Sorry I wasn't here when she introduced herself.

507
01:36:25.160 --> 01:36:29.239
What's your name again? Okay, I did. I did.

508
01:36:29.550 --> 01:36:36.609
Ok? Sorry the way I pronounce it. I'm Professor Obama from what has to be university in South Africa.

509
01:36:36.980 --> 01:36:48.160
Yeah, I I don't think that I struggle to understand her because, we have to get ourselves back into the thinking of

510
01:36:48.450 --> 01:36:51.840
the latent and manifest functions of everything.

511
01:36:51.940 --> 01:36:53.120
In other words.

512
01:36:53.230 --> 01:36:58.230
for anything that has its own manifest function. There are Latin functions.

513
01:36:58.340 --> 01:37:05.710
Invariably, I think, what they is trying to see is what she has presented. What I get from her

514
01:37:05.910 --> 01:37:10.570
is that social capital is important, as, say, he argued.

515
01:37:11.020 --> 01:37:15.120
and he is really surprised that I mean in a negative sense. Now.

516
01:37:15.550 --> 01:37:23.820
well, that is what we call the unexpected consequences of a particular action. I think if we go back to our sociological basis.

517
01:37:24.320 --> 01:37:28.060
the idea of social capital group in cohesion

518
01:37:29.080 --> 01:37:32.530
is intended to be good, but now

519
01:37:32.860 --> 01:37:37.579
we are seeing the unexpected consequences. This is our sociology alive.

520
01:37:37.730 --> 01:37:50.419
the latent and manifest consequences of action. So this, your study, basically, or your presentation, basically situates within the understanding of the latent consequences.

521
01:37:50.550 --> 01:37:56.429
If you have to take the of of arc, a metal. and some other functionalists

522
01:37:56.680 --> 01:37:58.209
that you understand it.

523
01:37:58.450 --> 01:38:14.530
I mean, that is it. I think it's great. Yeah. And I'm happy to be here. Okay, thank you. So let's collect some questions. Now. Stefan also raised his hand. I also have a couple of questions. So let's go, Gustavo. Then, Stefan. Then I I'm

524
01:38:17.880 --> 01:38:31.810
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: okay. Thank you. I would have questions for everyone. But actually, Stefan already answered the question I had. So I will ask for you, and I leave

525
01:38:32.600 --> 01:38:43.290
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: for Ali. I I really like the presentation, and I sympathize with the idea of

526
01:38:43.450 --> 01:38:53.949
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: problematizing the concept of social capital and of maybe dividing it into more forms of

527
01:38:54.270 --> 01:38:55.740
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: social capital.

528
01:38:56.360 --> 01:39:07.340
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: But what I don't quite get, you know, in the way you articulated. Your presentation is why, if we divide it in

529
01:39:07.570 --> 01:39:14.259
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: bonding social capital and bridging social capital, should it be like a 0 sum game.

530
01:39:14.560 --> 01:39:21.010
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I mean, I don't see why bonding would always work against social cohesion

531
01:39:21.230 --> 01:39:24.729
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: people can still have

532
01:39:24.900 --> 01:39:36.630
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: a preference for interacting with their ethnic communities, and in in adjust or in the functional or in a cohesive society.

533
01:39:36.910 --> 01:39:51.720
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: because the way you articulated this tension between bonding and bridging. Seems like the idea would be like a post that make or like kind of

534
01:39:51.810 --> 01:40:04.479
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: a Republican way of thinking. And I I don't see why, it needs to be this way. I mean, it can be bonding and social cohesive at the same time.

535
01:40:04.590 --> 01:40:15.859
 okay, thank you so much for just, I'm I'm sorry. I'm sorry we were collecting. So Stefan is not okay no longer. Okay. I I have.

536
01:40:16.100 --> 01:40:20.379
I'm sorry. No, no, I work a lot of questions.

537
01:40:20.900 --> 01:40:40.169
okay, so so I have a question for you, Gustavo. So I was. I was wondering because there's an emphasis in your talk about irons young. Concerning listening to the to the actors and their experiences of suffering, and so on, and so forth.

538
01:40:40.170 --> 01:41:01.780
and and you do emphasize as well how these conceptions of justice, and so And the experiences of suffering articulated by the subjects can rely on certain essentialist conceptions of social groups, and so on and so forth. But I was also wondering. So where does justice come in? I mean

539
01:41:01.820 --> 01:41:16.099
not, and not only in terms of the claims of the actors, but of certain conceptions of justice, because I mean There's one quote that you that you mentioned, in which he talks about desire and the desire for happiness

540
01:41:16.100 --> 01:41:34.170
and an okay desire for happiness. But that's very broad, right? There's a there, there's a notion of justice there. It's it's it's necessarily vague enough to account for all different conceptions of justice one can imagine. And so

541
01:41:34.710 --> 01:41:55.989
Where does a a specific conception of justice comes? which I mean, because I assume Young is not only one. She doesn't merely want to describe something she wants to take a stand. So So what's the role of the philosopher there, I mean, in in relation to these

542
01:41:56.240 --> 01:42:07.480
various conceptions of justice articulated by the actors. And how does the philosopher, so to speak, ground her. standpoint in this regard.

543
01:42:07.520 --> 01:42:10.390
And yeah, I had other questions. But let's

544
01:42:10.680 --> 01:42:12.869
here the answers first.

545
01:42:18.020 --> 01:42:22.170
okay, whoever wants to. If Alia, yeah, yeah, okay. Fine.

546
01:42:22.230 --> 01:42:50.219
So I think I might exaggerated the role of bonding social capital in my presentation a little bit because I wanted to show that social capital has a detrimental impact, too, and I divided to like a bonding and bridge and social capital. But I didn't say that we should. We shouldn't have a bonding social capital instead, we should have bridging social capital. But instead, I said that they should be in balance

547
01:42:50.320 --> 01:43:12.479
if one, if we have too much bonding social capital that could be very detrimental and also having a like too much bridging social capital. It's also not realistic, I think so. I think, in an ideal society they should be in balance, like we should. Of course, we have our own identities. We have our own communities.

548
01:43:12.480 --> 01:43:20.590
but we should also have a room for other ethnic groups or other social groups as well. I mean, this is the ideal one, of course.

549
01:43:23.700 --> 01:43:27.809
Yeah, thank you. So who would like to answer next.

550
01:43:28.830 --> 01:43:33.630
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So thank you for your question. Our food?

551
01:43:33.930 --> 01:43:37.889
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva:  yes. So

552
01:43:38.150 --> 01:43:55.459
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I think you were asking about yeah, the idea of justice. And what is the role of philosophy, since it doesn't inaugurate a discourse about justice, nor concludes it just has a intermediate role.

553
01:43:55.760 --> 01:44:21.989
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I think, in a way, she's reacting to robes when she develops her approach. So instead of a metaphor for seeing and avail, she's talking about listening, and instead of starting from principles of justice, she's starting her starting point, are experiences of injustice, for of domination.

554
01:44:22.400 --> 01:44:28.990
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So those are 2 major differences she has about a liberal

555
01:44:29.810 --> 01:44:31.890
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: theories of justice.

556
01:44:32.220 --> 01:44:45.430
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: So yeah, her starting point is kind of upside down. She's she starts from a notion of oppression and a notion of domination instead of

557
01:44:45.709 --> 01:44:48.809
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: a positive conception, and

558
01:44:49.030 --> 01:44:54.680
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: in a way her whole book is structured. negatively.

559
01:44:54.790 --> 01:45:02.629
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: through this prize of suffering or this discourses of

560
01:45:02.690 --> 01:45:11.790
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: on injustice, and only in the end Something like a positive idea of justice emerges.

561
01:45:12.010 --> 01:45:22.810
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: which is neither a community nor a society without groups is what she turns ideal city live.

562
01:45:22.889 --> 01:45:29.490
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: which is based on like in a Utopian metropolis. Let's say

563
01:45:29.780 --> 01:45:32.579
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: so. Yeah. But

564
01:45:33.100 --> 01:45:42.699
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: what I mean by in her work. Philosophy does not inaugurate nor conclude a discourse about justice, is that because

565
01:45:42.860 --> 01:45:47.860
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: it starts from discourses of suffering people or

566
01:45:48.620 --> 01:46:09.059
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: social movements, and not through a philosopher sitting on his chair thinking about principles. So it does not inaugurate in this way, and it does not conclude, because, she's not saying that she's right, and the discourse she should stop after she has written the book.

567
01:46:09.070 --> 01:46:16.829
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: It's a continuing dialogue. So yeah, it's a much more modest role for philosophy, I guess?

568
01:46:17.440 --> 01:46:20.830
 thank you.

569
01:46:21.110 --> 01:46:22.029
are there

570
01:46:22.150 --> 01:46:29.310
any more questions? Or is someone? I mean, does someone want to answer something that was a point that was raised.

571
01:46:31.100 --> 01:46:34.620
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I had another question for fad. You actually

572
01:46:34.670 --> 01:46:43.889
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: okay, so please. So if I got your point in a way, you're dealing with a different

573
01:46:45.730 --> 01:46:59.699
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: conceptions of the social or different aspects, and some of them are to oppose a notion of the social to a notion of the natural or the biological, I don't know.

574
01:47:00.090 --> 01:47:08.919
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: And and then some others are trying to assert the social as a normative principle.

575
01:47:09.590 --> 01:47:15.260
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: But I was interested in the end when you went to

576
01:47:15.299 --> 01:47:22.630
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: to talk about the theme of climate change and the Anthropocene

577
01:47:22.799 --> 01:47:29.320
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: as social experiences. And you said something along the lines of

578
01:47:29.370 --> 01:47:44.880
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: We cannot think about nature as the opposite of the social or the other of the social. The way we are dealing with natural catastrophes or changes are

579
01:47:44.930 --> 01:47:57.179
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: through through the social. So are you saying in a way that this difference between the social and the natural should be abandoned, or it doesn't hold up anymore.

580
01:47:57.190 --> 01:48:00.320
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: I don't know if that was the point of the less

581
01:48:00.470 --> 01:48:16.270
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: part. So it's a clarification question. Sorry if I misunderstood the whole thing, but I was curious about that.

582
01:48:16.590 --> 01:48:24.840
Fabio Braun Carrasco: I'm not sure if it's collapsed completely already. But I just think, at the the current moment, in time, it seems.

583
01:48:26.000 --> 01:48:33.130
Fabio Braun Carrasco: or it becomes more clearly that there is way, more connection than we thought there was between

584
01:48:33.150 --> 01:48:37.239
Fabio Braun Carrasco: what now is called the Earth system and human Societies.

585
01:48:37.530 --> 01:48:41.220
Fabio Braun Carrasco: or, yeah, Human capitalist society of today.

586
01:48:41.270 --> 01:48:49.080
Fabio Braun Carrasco: And yeah, and maybe it has collapsed already. But also, I'm I'm not the one to to pass judgment on that. But yeah, the argument is, it's

587
01:48:49.860 --> 01:48:56.150
Fabio Braun Carrasco: the the distinction isn't so clear anymore, at least. Yeah, what is natural? What is social?

588
01:48:57.390 --> 01:48:58.290
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Okay? Thank you.

589
01:49:01.170 --> 01:49:11.099
Ok, thank you very much. To everyone, I think I mean, now we've reached the time unless someone wants to make a comment or

590
01:49:11.380 --> 01:49:12.930
or make a point.

591
01:49:13.270 --> 01:49:30.029
Okay, so thank you all for for this good discussion, for all your papers, all the very interesting questions that were raised. I had more questions, but I mean we were out of time. So yeah, thank you all, David. You want to say something.

592
01:49:31.930 --> 01:49:34.239
David Strecker: Oh, just like everyone.

593
01:49:34.290 --> 01:49:47.110
David Strecker:  And all presenters, all participants to discussion you out for stepping in on the ground, and just probably finally to mention once more that tomorrow.

594
01:49:47.220 --> 01:49:51.389
David Strecker: at what time is it? 7, 30? The evening

595
01:49:51.740 --> 01:50:07.209
David Strecker: 1030 in the evening, that is, at Melbourne time we're gone after business meeting, and everyone who would like to participate in the committee's proceedings as when we invited to join.

596
01:50:07.600 --> 01:50:18.669
Also one more thing, I mean Thursday, 1230. There's the plenary session on on the book launched by the Rc. 35, the peripheral turn. So.

597
01:50:19.350 --> 01:50:23.480
okay. thank you. Everyone.

598
01:50:26.590 --> 01:50:27.000
Gustavo Frota Lima e Silva: Thank you.