WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:00.660
Ricardo? All set.

2
00:00:01.340 --> 00:00:06.260
So good morning, everyone. There's many people who are online checking.

3
00:00:06.500 --> 00:00:14.590
This is a let me begin with an acknowledgment of country on behalf of everyone gathered. I pay respects to the spirit of country here in Norm.

4
00:00:14.700 --> 00:00:18.419
where we are meeting. I acknowledged the past and present

5
00:00:18.980 --> 00:00:37.229
Kulin nation, Wanderuvi woi-warung, as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the norm and our aboriginal law customs and custodianship responsibilities for country and the people. That country continues to sustain generation

6
00:00:37.860 --> 00:00:55.920
after generation into the future. For us all. I recognize the important contributions that first nations. Thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant way of thinking. We thank all first nation delegates in the room to day for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

7
00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:10.740
With that I'm opening up the session on. how do I get out of the oh. I'm opening up this session today. It's the elements for an emancipatory sociology and appraisal of the work of Isfan Mitsaros.

8
00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:26.030
I'd like to point out that this session has been sponsored co-sponsored by critical sociology, a journal. and it is going to be the basis for a edited volume that is going to be published by the book series.

9
00:01:26.060 --> 00:01:46.460
We would invite anybody who is paying attention to this, who would like to contribute to contact Ricardo de la Bono? It's Ricardo, gala bono at Manhattan, Edu, or you can contact me at critical sociology@gmail.com and I will forward your information to Ricardo.

10
00:01:46.610 --> 00:02:01.920
Today we have a number of speakers. Let me go through them in order of presentations. Ricardo della Bono, from Manhattan College has it. His. His presentation is moving beyond the leviathan Pizzaros on the role of the State

11
00:02:02.010 --> 00:02:11.290
that will be followed after Ricardo's presentation. They'll all be in Spanish so they'll be followed by Carlos Eduardo Martinz.

12
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:23.060
who is from the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil, and his, a paper is a structural crisis of capitalism, Us. Imperialism and alternatives. For the 20 first century

13
00:02:23.250 --> 00:02:30.060
after Carlos comes Mario Van Gerlen Vanderlan, University of Campanyas, in Brazil.

14
00:02:30.230 --> 00:02:36.830
who is going to present on the question of natural limits in the work of Isvan Mysaros.

15
00:02:36.950 --> 00:02:47.129
followed by Kao Atunes at Tunis, Federal University of Golas, in Ufg. Brazil, on Education in Matzaros.

16
00:02:47.350 --> 00:03:03.520
Then it will be Ricardo, a Tunis University of Campanyas, Brazil Una appwesta of futuro ila Urgent's Ugensia della Alternativa Socialista, the controversion, the Isfan Masaros

17
00:03:03.730 --> 00:03:18.689
finally but not least aly on Sotolo Valencia from unknown Mexico. lasuper-explat, tasion deltre Bajo, and la met mediasion media Ciones.

18
00:03:19.220 --> 00:03:23.139
they Segundo or Dan, the Isvan Mitsaros.

19
00:03:23.370 --> 00:03:29.389
the Super-exploitation of labor in the second order mediations of Isfan Mazaros

20
00:03:29.630 --> 00:03:39.819
So without further ado, I think we will begin with Ricardo's presentation, who will be here in person. So let me begin.

21
00:03:39.880 --> 00:03:42.829
Yes, I got it. Ricardo Ricardo is being helpful

22
00:03:42.940 --> 00:03:43.730
all right.

23
00:03:44.100 --> 00:03:57.290
let me speak as well. Speakers will have about 13 min, and then I'll give them a warning I would like, because we have so many papers. No one should take more than 15 min, so we allow for a little time, at the end of their questions.

24
00:03:59.740 --> 00:04:12.110
Thanks very much, David, and good evening. Good afternoon, and good morning to everyone from all parts. You can see the title of my paper. My discussion will be looking at Mr. Ros on the role of estate.

25
00:04:15.130 --> 00:04:30.469
and as many of you may know, Mesodos wrote his Final Great work beyond Leviathan, the Critique of the State basically designed to create a theory, a Marxist theory of the State.

26
00:04:30.860 --> 00:04:40.420
It was a very ambitious work, as much of Masado. So his works were, and he originally mentioned 3 volumes.

27
00:04:41.150 --> 00:04:52.029
and I might just ask the presenters to mute if you could, because you're spilling over some some noise into the recording, so you might want to mute while you're waiting, and then unmute when you come around.

28
00:04:52.290 --> 00:05:14.119
So Meseros had this Three-volume work in in mind, And ultimately, at the time of his death, in 2,017 he had largely finished the first volume in many fragments of volume 2 and 3. So they have been translated and combined, thanks to John Bellamy Foster in Monthly Review people.

29
00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:31.869
and therefore produced this, you know this, this very important work on the theory of of the State. And the goal is basically to construct a modern. You know, 20 first century Marxist theory of the state, and the first point that Mesodos made was that there was no real Marxist theory of the State.

30
00:05:32.610 --> 00:05:56.490
which, of course, ruffles all of our feathers. But the the bottom line is is that as people like Babio and Alfuser also mentioned in their earlier attempts to theorize that Marx had largely left the idea of the State in a framework that the State should wither away in this transition to Socialism. But again, the theory about that withering away was left largely unaddressed.

31
00:05:56.710 --> 00:06:09.969
And so, as Meseros points out, a Marxist theory is not just about explaining social change, and in a historical context, but also to guide revolutionary strategy, to bring the change about.

32
00:06:10.150 --> 00:06:39.469
So, as a result, he set about this task to accomplish a theory that could inform social change. And and it's interesting. He largely bypasses many of the debates that we're familiar with of the 1970 S. Even earlier. Some of them, you know Miliban, Ralph Milliban, Nicolas, Bolansas. Basically, he felt that they they skirted the main issue. They were not particularly, you know, radical in the sense of contemplating the withering of the state as Marx had suggested.

33
00:06:39.640 --> 00:07:08.590
So he sets about trying to bypass. That that, you know approach by, as you can see, reflecting back to, you know Hobbes and earlier theorists, you know, even back to, you know, Aristotle, you name it to looking at classical theory to suggest how the State itself as an institution arose independent of capitalism, and that gave him a kind of a historical starting point to associate. You know the nature of the capitalist state and make the distinction between capital as a social

34
00:07:08.590 --> 00:07:36.959
relation in State State rule. So essentially, as he points out, the 20 first century, of course, is far different than the conditions which Marx confronted in his period. There were many structural adjustments to keep, you know the the system going, but none of them, of course, were able to solve what is building, as the you know, major structural crisis.

35
00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:51.849
where the system comes up against its own ecological roots, and the final analysis. And in that sense I think Mesodos was very prophetic in in looking at you know what what became later. ecological and even epidemiological crisis.

36
00:07:51.850 --> 00:08:11.889
But the main point he's trying to address is how to turn this this historical inheritance of a State into a genuinely transitional formation in the context of a radical social movements. And you know the capture of State power and all of those issues. And his starting point is essentially this concept of the social metabolic reproduction.

37
00:08:11.910 --> 00:08:29.949
This idea of of the social metabolism, of course, was discussed by Marx when he talked about the metabolic rift in his early early notions of, you know, colonialism and its effect on a what it eventually would become a global economy. Lukash picked that up, took it further into kind of the Hegelian Marxist

38
00:08:29.950 --> 00:08:53.040
notion of of the dynamic nature of of this social formation of capitalism, and it's in prior modes of production and meseros makes it a a much more structural concern, where he brings the objective basis of of the contradictions of capitalism into clear view. And this is this is, I think, his great contribution. And of course we'll have this polemic.

39
00:08:53.040 --> 00:09:16.419
you know. conception of the Socialist transition that is the subject of great debate nowadays. So basically, he argues that labor is locked in this structural dependency. It's caught between capital on the one hand, which, of course, traditional alienation of labor and exploitation with the State, on the other hand, which is managing and reproducing this capital relation.

40
00:09:16.800 --> 00:09:32.870
where he differs with many other Marxists, is this idea that you cannot break the cycle of subordination and exploitation without breaking the State, because it's integrally part of the capital relation, which is why he talks about the capital relation as opposed to capitalist regimes.

41
00:09:32.880 --> 00:09:54.269
We talk about capital's regimes. You can talk about how the Bolshevik Revolution or other revolutions may have smashed the capitalist class, but then go about reproducing the alienated structures of exploitation that become the basis of a restoration of capitalism. It's like the, you know, the many heads of hydra, you know, and I think it's sort of pointed in some of his, his works more poetically.

42
00:09:54.270 --> 00:10:17.049
So, the the idea of of of somehow a State being able to reform itself, you know, was essentially shown in his works. You know the social welfare states entering in the crisis. So decline of social Europe and it's moved towards neoliberalism as all manifestations of the fact that the structural crisis of capital could not be resolved under this kind of State.

43
00:10:17.050 --> 00:10:34.919
You know, welfare State sort of system this way of trying to patch up the the, the growing inequalities of these social formations. But he makes the same argument with stalinist systems, arguing, you know, again following the Lucasian tradition, and Lukash was his mentor, and Lukashen Mithras were very good friends.

44
00:10:34.920 --> 00:10:51.010
in in a mentor. I guess you could say. you know, Mesos argues that any time you keep the market operating as the means of of regulating the the social metabolism. The the capitalist restoration is never too far away.

45
00:10:51.010 --> 00:11:13.090
and of course this, you know, makes his work somewhat controversial. When we look, you know, nowadays we consider it, for example, with Cuban colleagues or or colleagues from China. The idea of a State control over the economy from the point of view of Luke. of so Mesodos is basically to kind of suggest that a that a transition back to neoliberal capitalism is not far behind.

46
00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:21.490
And I think many theorists have talked about the neoliberal character in China as a sort of you know. I guess. An illustration of this important point.

47
00:11:21.550 --> 00:11:35.550
So the real question for Meseros is, you know. How do you replace the the state, this historical, all-encompassing institution with a genuinely transitional institution, you know which is what Socialism is all about.

48
00:11:35.550 --> 00:11:59.339
And again, what I think his contribution really is is to suggest that, as if you have, if you and you maintain and you reproduce a hierarchical social division of labor, then you can't possibly move towards a Socialist transformation of the sort. Envision by by Marx, the Socialist project. The idea of dealionating and and restoring, you know the power of labor, the laborer over over labor.

49
00:11:59.340 --> 00:12:13.540
So in in summary, I guess what we're talking about here is the need to to understand and to confront the fact that that overthrowing the capitalist class is not the sufficient condition for a Socialist transformation. It's the necessary

50
00:12:13.540 --> 00:12:29.089
but insufficient condition for the establishment of Socialism, since the persistence of State rule basically can lead towards a restoration. And this is, of course, he associates with the failure of the State Socialist systems, beginning with the Bolshevik revolution forward.

51
00:12:29.210 --> 00:12:45.539
So if the capture of State power is insufficient, then what we need to talk about is well, how do you? How do you create the mechanisms or the mediations, as he would put it, towards a transition to substantive equality, which would be again the alienation of the capital relation.

52
00:12:45.750 --> 00:13:09.250
Essentially the substantive equality that he refers to can only really be established under a completely different order of the metabolic reproduction of society, which is to say, not under a hierarchical state, but in a socially coordinated formation, which is, again, you know, more viable and more sustainable, which we have seen that the State run economies generally have not proven to be

53
00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:26.439
so. In a sense, if we're talking about the idea of an irreversible Socialist transition, what we're talking about is the need for communal control over economic affairs. We're talking about creating new institutions that can gradually socialize the coordination of the social metabolism.

54
00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:33.680
And again, that's the central objective, and basically where he ends up with in his final works is talking about.

55
00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:45.200
you know. Well, how do the how does the Socialist offensive. He's what he's calling the Socialist offensive are things like Venezuela and revolutions that break out? Try to break out of the capitalist world. System.

56
00:13:45.200 --> 00:14:08.989
Well, how is it that they can carry out and create an irreversible social situation, that is to say, one that does not lead towards a restoration of the capital relation. And again, this is, of course, very difficult. He does make makes no apologies about the complexity and the historical nature of this. But he basically, I think the strength of Masero's analysis is to take in very careful consideration the existing

57
00:14:08.990 --> 00:14:18.220
objective conditions of the world economy, you know, looking at the dependency relationships. Looking at the exploitation as it becomes, you know.

58
00:14:18.390 --> 00:14:47.759
chattel throughout global mechanisms. So all of this becomes essentially the basis by which to theorize. Well, you know, how does a social movement in Brazil? How does the social, you know a regime in Venezuela confront these conditions and establish the possibility of a Socialist transition. So of course, this is just a broad outline of the overall Mesodos analysis. I used a a picture of a few years back to put here. I think An interesting quote.

59
00:14:47.760 --> 00:14:57.920
which is to say, of course, as historical as this analysis is the passionate reassertion of the validity of this broad historical perspective does not solve the problem. The crucial issue is

60
00:14:57.920 --> 00:15:17.869
how to gain a firm hold on the necessary mediations while avoiding the trap of false mediations constantly produced by the established Order and the Messerous notion of Mediations is the subject of one of our following presentations. We will have some presentations in English and some presentations in Spanish. The English ones are coming first, and with that

61
00:15:18.010 --> 00:15:19.670
turn it back over to David.

62
00:15:25.220 --> 00:15:45.620
Thank you, Ricardo. I would like to point out that we would like to leave all questions to the end, so that we can make sure we get through all the presentations, and if we maintain the time frame as expected, we will have 10 or 15 min for any kind of cross- conversation with various speakers and anyone in the audience, both physically present or online.

63
00:15:45.710 --> 00:15:50.880
So with that the next presentation is.

64
00:15:53.100 --> 00:16:02.280
since the order on the screen is different than the order where we're going. The next presentation will be by Carlos. Eduardo Martinz!

65
00:16:02.330 --> 00:16:05.679
And it's the structural crisis of capitalism.

66
00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:10.639
Oh, I'm getting help from the there we go!

67
00:16:11.110 --> 00:16:16.089
Is that is Carlos. Oh, there's okay. Okay.

68
00:16:16.260 --> 00:16:17.899
So you have.

69
00:16:18.020 --> 00:16:26.820
Carlos Eduardo Martins: If you have a Powerpoint, you can share your screen. Otherwise you could just make your presentation. Okay, I don't have you speak, only

70
00:16:27.170 --> 00:16:31.660
invoice. and I will tell you when you have 2 min to go.

71
00:16:32.430 --> 00:16:37.590
Carlos Eduardo Martins: Perfect.

72
00:16:37.770 --> 00:16:43.849
Carlos Eduardo Martins: but it's in. It's the, and it's the. It's

73
00:16:51.010 --> 00:16:55.890
Carlos Eduardo Martins: the

74
00:17:04.700 --> 00:17:08.359
Carlos Eduardo Martins: just like they decrease. This is to to their capital.

75
00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:14.939
Carlos Eduardo Martins: He

76
00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:16.430
Carlos Eduardo Martins: a

77
00:17:25.710 --> 00:17:28.510
Carlos Eduardo Martins: chronica porridge. Siva

78
00:17:33.610 --> 00:17:36.450
Carlos Eduardo Martins: no

79
00:17:36.570 --> 00:17:48.960
Carlos Eduardo Martins:  a

80
00:18:18.910 --> 00:18:35.480
Carlos Eduardo Martins: in question. Lowly meet this

81
00:19:13.690 --> 00:19:15.020
Carlos Eduardo Martins: absolutely

82
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:48.549
Carlos Eduardo Martins: like they. They're level to Shawn

83
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:52.580
Carlos Eduardo Martins: Colo cano increases

84
00:20:55.290 --> 00:21:03.990
Carlos Eduardo Martins: the

85
00:22:28.210 --> 00:22:30.910
Carlos Eduardo Martins: A in the

86
00:24:03.750 --> 00:24:05.949
Carlos Eduardo Martins: we formal

87
00:24:29.150 --> 00:24:36.700
Carlos Eduardo Martins: A

88
00:25:50.670 --> 00:26:40.479
Carlos Eduardo Martins:  I forces

89
00:27:09.800 --> 00:27:15.670
Carlos Eduardo Martins: the

90
00:28:22.120 --> 00:28:47.300
thank you very much. I noticed that there's some possible questions in the chat. We're going to go through all the questions at the end. So please be patient with that regard. But thank you very much for a very excellent discussion. And we look forward again. Many of the speakers have papers that are available to download. We're trying to figure out how to access that. But we'll let you know before the end of the session.

91
00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:48.410
next.

92
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:54.060
What do I do next? Escape! Just hold them up.

93
00:28:54.870 --> 00:29:09.999
Oh, click on the next person. So the next speaker will be Moreidio vandalan on the question of natural limits in the work of isfund mitos, and it actually may be in English. We'll see what happens.

94
00:29:10.520 --> 00:29:17.860
Murillo van der Laan: What are you all yours? Hi, David, thank you. Can you hear me? Well, yes, please.

95
00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:19.310
Murillo van der Laan: Yeah.

96
00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:26.929
Murillo van der Laan: all right. Okay. Great. Well, good morning. Good afternoon, and good night for everyone

97
00:29:29.050 --> 00:29:48.089
Murillo van der Laan: Well, I'll I'll try to to to keep on time. But first of all, I'd like to to say many things to guitar the. And they've been following us for organizing this session, and really many, many thanks for all your support, and say that I'm really happy to to be here today with my friend and professor. He card on doing this.

98
00:29:48.359 --> 00:30:07.609
Murillo van der Laan: who, by the way is responsible for bringing archive to to University of. And it it is here now, and to Kai, with Kai on to, and is another good friend, and then it is because I don't know what that is is here. But I didn't. Anyway. Everyone.

99
00:30:08.060 --> 00:30:35.439
Murillo van der Laan: Well, my presentation here today is is to a working in progress in which I'm trying to to understand the idea of nature in this way that is work, and mainly his approach to to natural limits. And I'm trying to to do this in the light of the the last 2 decades of exaggerating and theoretical development about nature put forward by many Marxist, but especially by what is now known as the metabolic rift to school.

100
00:30:35.560 --> 00:30:49.530
Murillo van der Laan: which praises the Mizzardo's legacy on the question of natural limits, and also praises the the the perspective on nature. In in the major fault of the are the Lokesh which it was Mizzardos, a friend and teacher.

101
00:30:50.030 --> 00:31:08.169
Murillo van der Laan: But I think that the metabolic school sometimes doesn't engage, Critically with with with it. It's on dialogue with both fingers and and bizarre and Lucas, and they explicit discontinue. It is that exists between Mes and and Lukash.

102
00:31:08.260 --> 00:31:21.610
Murillo van der Laan: for instance, recently, Cohesito, who is also at the Isa Congress But you recently Cohes side, who wrote a a really good book on on Marx on the Admin, the Anthropocene.

103
00:31:21.700 --> 00:31:31.499
Murillo van der Laan: and he put forward the interpretation that the fury of metabolism is the foundation of a a. An echo Socialist realism.

104
00:31:31.930 --> 00:31:44.589
Murillo van der Laan: but which I think it's kind of puts aside the the main direction. Lucas perspective was taking on metabolism, I think part of the the of missed out is critique of his old friend and his manager.

105
00:31:44.810 --> 00:31:57.030
Murillo van der Laan: But, anyway, the the results, so far, of my interpretation on nature, and as that is that in 1970 s. He puts forward an important framework about natural limits on their on their capital.

106
00:31:57.190 --> 00:32:14.480
Murillo van der Laan: But although Mizarre's don't fully develop with the idea that about the destructiveness of capital, I I think so far that he never developed it concretely. A dialogue with natural science that could specify this disruptiveness.

107
00:32:14.760 --> 00:32:26.070
Murillo van der Laan: Ms. I was also deemed grasp the way Marx dealt more concretely with these issues, and on on these 2 points. I think the metabolic R to school went further than than Ms.

108
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:55.309
Murillo van der Laan:  But anyway, Mizan is in inherited a strong materialist framework from from his mentor Lucas and Mark. Specifically he inherited this from old Lokish, from old location on the logical reading of Marx. And I say, I, strong materialist framework, not only because Mizzard is inherited from from Lokesh the idea of metabolism, but also because Lucas ontology. There is this realistic perspective on nature

109
00:32:55.360 --> 00:33:00.869
Murillo van der Laan: different from a locus. Construction is perspective in history and class consciousness.

110
00:33:01.090 --> 00:33:25.449
Murillo van der Laan: Now, I think this is important for me, that is, to to escape, since the seventies from a gritty that is put forward by environmental sociology about how different philosophical and sociological theories are kind of embedded in a in a human. It's functionalist perspective, that is that humans are this a distinct force that are ultimately exempt from natural consequence.

111
00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:39.190
Murillo van der Laan: So nature according this, with this critic, nature basically doesn't count in many theoretical perspective, or perspectives, or are present only through a social constructionist approach.

112
00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:56.730
Murillo van der Laan: So from Lucas Mizad, who inherits this this on theological approach that starts with the materiality of nature. But Lukash also falls in a human exemptionalist perspective, since since in his, on the Logical perspective.

113
00:33:56.740 --> 00:34:14.679
Murillo van der Laan: the much reality of nature is used as a base to praise the development of productive forces. a development that in lokish perspective ultimately contributes to human, and that can only intensify the metabolism with nature.

114
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:45.899
Murillo van der Laan: But Lucas never alludes. As far as I'm aware, he never alludes to the possibility of a rift between a a society and nature. and I'll do mes out of here. It is inherits this ontological framework from Lucas, already in 1,900 fiftys Mesan is deeply critical of Lukash, theoretical and and political positions, and the development of his of this critique is important also from the point of view of nature

115
00:34:46.020 --> 00:35:05.000
Murillo van der Laan: as Miss out of sees it. lokesh, it stays in a very abstract perspective about the development of labor that that serves as a kind in in this honest terms, as a kind of ontological guarantee that the social being we will always reach higher levels of sociability.

116
00:35:05.510 --> 00:35:28.869
Murillo van der Laan: This is a a, a, a, an abstracted perspective. And for theoretical and political reasons, there's obviously Lukash cannot address a a what Mizados later we'll call capital second, or the Mid Mediations. This set of he had article relations that that determines the contemporary metabolism, including the metabolism of a post capitalist sites.

117
00:35:29.140 --> 00:35:45.359
Murillo van der Laan: So for me, that is this, this set of hierarchical relations is separated, and in both itself all labor is uncontrollable, is disruptive, and also is, in the sense of the destruction of nature. So like Lukash

118
00:35:45.430 --> 00:36:06.939
Murillo van der Laan:  bizarre stakes nature as as his point of departure. But, unlike Lucas, he doesn't see that the blind development of productive forces is ultimately a a good in the sense of intensifying the metabolism between the social being in nature, and that this will elevate our sociability.

119
00:36:07.090 --> 00:36:21.879
Murillo van der Laan: On the contrary, mesodes is that the kind of blind development of capital, including both S. Capital, is is pushing humanity to a situation that undermines its own own condition of metabolic interaction with nature.

120
00:36:22.080 --> 00:36:47.599
Murillo van der Laan: Hence, in very general terms, Ms. Escaped this perspective based on a here one exemption list. and he does so already in in the 19 seventies, when, when when he writes Marx's fury of alienation, he stresses, although he stresses briefly not only the alienation within society, but also the alienation between a society and nature

121
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:53.870
Murillo van der Laan: and the environmental cost of this. And he says, Marx is seeing this already in 1844.

122
00:36:54.230 --> 00:37:12.099
Murillo van der Laan: So in in case of accepting this speech of the Deutsche Memorial Prize in 1,971 miss out his addresses directly. The question of ecological destruction. He talks about the the possibility of generalizing for the whole planet the kind of American consumption

123
00:37:12.150 --> 00:37:14.819
Murillo van der Laan: giving our limited resources.

124
00:37:15.120 --> 00:37:37.230
Murillo van der Laan: and he criticized me on screen size, new, more tuition perspectives that they tried to put the blame of environmental conditions on the population growth at the global solve. And he criticized the projection that that science and technology under capital could solve all the ecological problems which he says in his own terms, that it is a a magical thinking.

125
00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:41.050
Murillo van der Laan: and and he criticized a as well

126
00:37:41.270 --> 00:37:53.659
Murillo van der Laan: any abstract approach to science and to nature. and that wouldn't be able to solve ecological problems if if remained under the direction of capital.

127
00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:05.640
Murillo van der Laan: so the uncontrollable, the conflict, reading the compulsory expansion of capital, was entering in this is structural prices that that the the the previous speakers mentioned.

128
00:38:05.990 --> 00:38:21.589
Murillo van der Laan: and this would be devastating for the human kind. This could. This could be averted, though, but not by technology not averted by a restriction on on population growth and the global South. But by breaking with the capital metabolic order.

129
00:38:22.220 --> 00:38:28.470
Murillo van der Laan: And the moment Ms. Out of this, putting this perspective forward is interesting for several reasons.

130
00:38:28.520 --> 00:38:42.669
Murillo van der Laan: First, because this is the time of the great acceleration. This is the beginning of the on triple scene. Of course he? He couldn't know that he he couldn't know about the Anthropocene at the time.

131
00:38:42.920 --> 00:39:00.739
Murillo van der Laan: And this is not. This is not a problem. Of course it is not the issue, but the issue is that it's still trying to to to find out this. But I I don't think it's a a clear what it. It is clear what he's reading about ecological this direction at the time.

132
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:14.340
Murillo van der Laan: so his perspective is in a sense abstract, is based on on the idea of a uncontrollable expansion of capital and limited resources. but not referring Mark completely to ecological impacts.

133
00:39:14.530 --> 00:39:33.410
Murillo van der Laan: Nevertheless, within Marx's discussion of of the seventies, the way he frames. The problem is is the best one is the is very fruitful. He doesn't. He doesn't share, as I mentioned, Lukish abstract optimism about the development of productive forces in 1,971 is the year of Lokish death.

134
00:39:33.600 --> 00:39:39.749
Murillo van der Laan: but he also doesn't share the best of of which he meets the the front for a scholar

135
00:39:39.850 --> 00:40:04.800
Murillo van der Laan: about human domination of nature as as this kind of inevitable oppressive force, I think both scheme and and Lukash, Despite they have opposed views. They shared an an abstract perspective about the development of productive forces, and both in different ways they neglected how deep and how destructive was the impact of capital on the environment.

136
00:40:05.220 --> 00:40:24.270
Murillo van der Laan: and they the and and mizzard's perspective frames the problem as well of new models, and is in a way that it doesn't minimize the question of natural limits. David Harvey, for instance, follow a a different path, and his followers

137
00:40:24.330 --> 00:40:52.959
Murillo van der Laan: end up in this kind of constructionist approach about nature as jungle, lemme foster, and more recently cohesite to show. And this, this, this this kind of neglected the the natural limits that we are facing now. So it it there's always framework is is later develop in in, in beyond capital. But when it comes again to the question of specific environmental issues. The problem of

138
00:40:52.960 --> 00:41:07.700
Murillo van der Laan: of the lack of reference in natural science or concrete studies about the ecological impacts remain. So so far, I think that Mason's perspective about capital activating absolutely, it's is based on a the roof.

139
00:41:08.070 --> 00:41:26.850
Murillo van der Laan: This is of capital. But in an abstract abstract perspective of a limited nature. And and this contrast with the mitochondria to the logical approach of of Marx, which you, which is obviously Mizada's main reference.

140
00:41:26.850 --> 00:41:46.299
Murillo van der Laan: Nevertheless, in just to conclude, nevertheless, without a stress, that what is the most is important, and he did so, like he will. He pioneered this, which is, they need to take seriously natural limits, and they need, and the possibility of overcoming the destructive, uncontrollable and compulsive of capital.

141
00:41:46.930 --> 00:41:48.270
Murillo van der Laan: That's it. Thank you.

142
00:41:48.810 --> 00:41:50.049
Thank you very much.

143
00:41:53.100 --> 00:42:13.949
I was. it was pointed out for people who go to the schedule in the program of Isa. And you click on this program. You'll see a list of all the presenters, and if there is a handout there'll be an indication there where you can click on the handout and download, whether it's a paper or a Powerpoint, or whatever information has been provided.

144
00:42:13.950 --> 00:42:24.760
Not everybody has one, but that's a good way to get some more information all right. Our next speaker is Kao Antunes, who's going to be talking about education in Mitsaros?

145
00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:27.460
it is up to you now.

146
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:33.510
Caio Antunes: Oh, yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. Do you hear me?

147
00:42:33.570 --> 00:43:03.399
Caio Antunes: Yes, yes, we can hear you. Thank you. it's a great pleasure and honor to be here to tonight this afternoon. What this morning depends on where you're standing. I would like to thank Ricardo and David for organizing this, this, this panel, this section, and it is as well as modulo, has just said, an honor and a joy to be here with so many good friends and relatives and some possible new friends. Well, my presentation is about education in mesaros and

148
00:43:03.560 --> 00:43:08.209
Caio Antunes: I should start by saying that education is not a main theme

149
00:43:08.410 --> 00:43:09.930
Caio Antunes: that appears

150
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:38.569
Caio Antunes: on the first plane of Mazaro's analysis throughout his life. Considering his first works that we had access to. more access to which is Marx's theory of alienation in 1970 s. To be on the Wython Published after his death. But anyway, although education is not a a, a, a, a, a theme that appears in the first plane of his analysis. It is set

151
00:43:38.750 --> 00:43:46.849
Caio Antunes: very, very important and very profound in his entire work. Well, education is

152
00:43:48.090 --> 00:44:03.289
Caio Antunes: dealt with directly and testfully in 3 different times, in different periods of msaros work the first time that he addresses. This thing is in the last chapter of Martha's Marxist theory of alienation in 1970, s.

153
00:44:03.290 --> 00:44:32.000
Caio Antunes: the second time he addresses, that is, at a Conference at the World Social Forum of Education in Brazil, in 2,002, and that conference that he held there originated in independent volume called Education beyond Capital, that was published, as far as I concern, in Portuguese and a few other Latin language, but not in English, and this work, the Conference. Education beyond capital was published in English as the eighth.

154
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:50.830
Caio Antunes: a chapter of the Challenge and Burden of historical time, and also the eighth item of the 9, the ninth chapter of historical and challenge and learning of historical time. These are, as far as I concerned, the only 3 texts that deal directly with education. But

155
00:44:51.050 --> 00:45:11.189
Caio Antunes: even having these 3 texts to understand properly the concept of education or the conception of education that is structures Mesaro's work, and that Mesaro's structures within his work, we have to counterpose it to, to, to, to put it against his entire conception.

156
00:45:11.530 --> 00:45:12.290
Caio Antunes: Well.

157
00:45:12.450 --> 00:45:37.070
Caio Antunes:  our point of departure for the exposition of the conception of education relies on the conception, on discussion of work. That we, Cyril's organizes and Throughout his work is is is is written paper as well. We will depart from the conceptions of The system of first organizations that were already in

158
00:45:37.330 --> 00:45:39.309
Caio Antunes: indicated here, and

159
00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:48.459
Caio Antunes: considering the the the social system of first order mediations with through his 2 main conceptions, both

160
00:45:48.710 --> 00:45:51.519
Caio Antunes: conceding work as the the

161
00:45:51.530 --> 00:46:06.630
Caio Antunes: complex that makes possible the appearance, the emergence of social being on the first on the face of the earth, and also the complex responsible for the complexification, or, in one word, the humanization of human beings.

162
00:46:06.790 --> 00:46:19.189
Caio Antunes:  from that friend a trans historical category as work taking especially one of its determinant aspects.

163
00:46:19.370 --> 00:46:38.509
Caio Antunes: we now pass for the category of alienated labor, or, as mesados would say, it, structures. They hold second order mediation systems, a cong a set of mediations of the mediations. The first set of mediations, the mediates

164
00:46:38.630 --> 00:46:55.750
Caio Antunes: the relation between human beings and nature and these second order of aviation. They are, in a way, Throughout Mesaro's work, the the main target of the process of human emissions. But now I I have to point this. There is.

165
00:46:55.750 --> 00:47:19.450
Caio Antunes: in the social structure, social structures and forms of conscience. Just consciousness volunteer a slight, a subtle but important change of consideration. Regarding this second order of mediations. Mizzardo's through his works says that the the the main the main aim, the main objective of the Socialist revolution

166
00:47:19.450 --> 00:47:34.580
Caio Antunes: or the built. The construction of an alternative. Social metabolic order has to destroy the set of the complex or the system of second well as second order mediations. But in this work Msaros says.

167
00:47:34.580 --> 00:47:38.380
Caio Antunes: well, it is what what is actually in in, in.

168
00:47:38.600 --> 00:47:59.419
Caio Antunes: in view here is to build a new second, or the mediation system not only destroy them, so that's not the main, they're not central for us today. Well, regarding of of from the discussion of work and alienated labor regarding now one of the political or the political aspects of elimination. mesaros

169
00:47:59.730 --> 00:48:24.480
Caio Antunes: passes, and that's the sequence that he follows in the Marxist theory of Lynn or alienation. The seventies, 19 seventies book, he said. He passes and discusses the political aspects of alienation. from 2 different points of view. One starts there and it's developed through about his work. We we could put here. as the conception and his of

170
00:48:24.500 --> 00:48:28.649
Caio Antunes: conception and and development of his theory of state

171
00:48:29.060 --> 00:48:34.060
Caio Antunes: clearly anchored, clearly departing from Marxist theory of State.

172
00:48:34.870 --> 00:48:51.810
Caio Antunes: which in which the only via phone is the the, the, the the main, the main, and the last great work. But what is more important for us. And in this, in this elaboration, in this construction of his theory of stage, is the very seminal

173
00:48:51.870 --> 00:48:57.469
Caio Antunes: complex, polemical and important distinction between capital

174
00:48:57.600 --> 00:49:07.809
Caio Antunes: as a social metabolic system and capitalism as a mode of production. I won't argue, I won't discuss this year. I won't have time for that.

175
00:49:07.850 --> 00:49:30.229
Caio Antunes: but that's very important, including for his conception of education, as we will see in the end of my presentation. But what in his political approaches and discussion of aspects of alienation is important for us. Here is a very, very short discussion held in the Marxist theory of alienation

176
00:49:30.230 --> 00:49:48.009
Caio Antunes: that points to a very important differentiation or distinction between legality and morality. Ms. Says that legality only works negatively only can work can produce itself negatively, negatively by

177
00:49:48.260 --> 00:49:52.230
Caio Antunes: through its sanction and Lego, and legal penalties

178
00:49:52.990 --> 00:49:59.439
Caio Antunes: try to obliterate, try to not allow or try to a a. A, a, a demeanor

179
00:49:59.790 --> 00:50:06.799
Caio Antunes: unwanted, unliked behaviors, unlike social behaviors by the human. The social individuals.

180
00:50:08.140 --> 00:50:15.819
Caio Antunes: on the other hand, as legality works negatively, morality or morale works, or can work positively.

181
00:50:16.220 --> 00:50:22.979
Caio Antunes: positively, which means that the moral organs of society are those through which.

182
00:50:24.570 --> 00:50:37.750
Caio Antunes: through which, social individuals can internalize, can incorporate, can embody different sets of process. Different sets of values and decent different sets of of of actions

183
00:50:38.090 --> 00:50:56.350
Caio Antunes: from that distinguish and distinguish between legality and morality, in which one cannot take the place of the other, or cannot work through the other. They have different parts, they have different limits, and for that different possibilities. Mesados

184
00:50:56.920 --> 00:51:04.850
Caio Antunes: then says that the only truly moral organ of it social social beings is education.

185
00:51:05.180 --> 00:51:06.220
Caio Antunes: and then

186
00:51:06.650 --> 00:51:15.589
Caio Antunes: we at best for the third point, on the third aspect of my presentation, the discussion of education itself, but for

187
00:51:15.630 --> 00:51:28.659
Caio Antunes: approaching education itself, it has to be set. It has to be put inside. Within this whole discussion that was previously indicated. Well, the main aspects

188
00:51:29.100 --> 00:51:54.730
Caio Antunes: of education are pointed by as a system or a process of internalization. That's the category uses in education beyond the capital or interiorization which is the category he uses in Marxist theory of alienation. But these 2 categories mean the same thing, which is a internalization or the social being

189
00:51:55.080 --> 00:52:08.660
Caio Antunes: having incorporating as its own as his own or her own. This set of rules, the set of values, the set of parameters of any order, society, societal order, is damaged.

190
00:52:08.730 --> 00:52:20.090
Caio Antunes: but that this same conception of educational, this conception of education as internalization means necessarily a very broad and very wide

191
00:52:20.100 --> 00:52:23.100
Caio Antunes: comprehension that has to be understood

192
00:52:23.770 --> 00:52:29.399
Caio Antunes: in this broad section, as in this broad sense, otherwise it won't be

193
00:52:29.550 --> 00:52:31.969
Caio Antunes: adequately grasped.

194
00:52:32.060 --> 00:52:51.710
Caio Antunes: Well, miss outdoors for discussing, for pinpointing, for indicating, or for discussing his conception of education. He starts by quoting but a sales, as you will know. And now, Canist, that was born in the very end of the fifteenth century, and the the the the the the dome of the sixteenth century.

195
00:52:51.710 --> 00:53:02.509
Caio Antunes: But the conception of education that Mesaros brings using but a sales. So which is education is our very lives. We learn from the moment of birth to our near death.

196
00:53:02.510 --> 00:53:16.999
Caio Antunes: It's only the conception of education that miss out on screens for the exposition of the term, of the of the discussion of education, the conception of education that extractors miss out of conception.

197
00:53:17.050 --> 00:53:44.710
Caio Antunes: or bizarre's conception of education differently than the conception that he uses for his exposition. The conception that he structures is his notion of education is very, very close to Lukash. Concepts, and conception of education brought by by by Yardi Gordy Lukash. Thank you. Yardi Lukash, on his powerful chapter of of A, of a Reproduction, and his on College of social being.

198
00:53:44.780 --> 00:54:10.100
Caio Antunes: Perception, miss out of conception, education very close to that is brought by Miss out on the challenge and burden of historical time. To sum up. What are these aspects of the conception of education in the Zen rooms? We have at first, or, in first place, the very important broad sense of education not to be equaled, its formal or institutional aspect.

199
00:54:10.210 --> 00:54:17.170
Caio Antunes: schooler, scholar, education, school education is different than the education that happens throughout our entire existence.

200
00:54:17.740 --> 00:54:23.559
Caio Antunes: Second thing The logic of capital impacts both

201
00:54:23.700 --> 00:54:39.780
Caio Antunes: educate scholar education, institutional education, and the broad sense of education. miss out as follows, almost as a goes next to the discussion of the education of Utopia's, held during the the the accident that they ascend in phases of capitalism.

202
00:54:39.910 --> 00:54:42.730
Caio Antunes: especially a a a a

203
00:54:43.480 --> 00:54:48.090
Caio Antunes:  since you more, for here

204
00:54:48.610 --> 00:54:49.810
Caio Antunes: and Robert Owen.

205
00:54:50.520 --> 00:54:56.910
Caio Antunes: After that he discusses the necessary distinction between the formal aspects of

206
00:54:57.020 --> 00:55:17.730
Caio Antunes: the formal and the essential aspects of this struggle against capital to end up. This is the discussion articulating the necessary dialectics between transformation and human information which means the struggle for a different social metabolic order has to walk past by past

207
00:55:17.780 --> 00:55:21.039
Caio Antunes: with the struggle for a different.

208
00:55:21.380 --> 00:55:40.820
Caio Antunes: a, a new kind of internalization system. So formation and transformation have to sustain each other in this struggle, and that's the main characters, that structure the conception of education in Mesaros, which he a very happily and very similarly calls education beyond the company.

209
00:55:41.190 --> 00:55:43.720
Caio Antunes: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

210
00:55:46.830 --> 00:55:57.530
Very informative. We are now followed by Ricardo Artunis. a Ricardo. You there? Yep. turn on your mic. There we go. Okay.

211
00:55:59.580 --> 00:56:18.259
rantunes: okay, and many thanks to Dave and Ricardo, it's a very good pleasure to me. Participate in this seminar in this conference about 2 packs about the bizarre and including with Carlos Adrian.

212
00:56:19.190 --> 00:56:23.280
rantunes:  you where you're blinding, it's by yours. Right?

213
00:56:41.390 --> 00:56:45.560
rantunes: Mark's studio.

214
00:56:45.670 --> 00:56:55.920
rantunes: the power of

215
00:56:56.120 --> 00:57:00.929
rantunes: they a beyond the Leviata. This is the first additional

216
00:57:01.020 --> 00:57:06.010
rantunes: of the world in Brazil from and

217
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:42.520
rantunes: beyond the capital, or

218
00:57:43.400 --> 00:57:45.610
rantunes: is seeing bargain.

219
00:58:00.470 --> 00:58:02.830
rantunes: Yvoi Presentar.

220
00:58:33.030 --> 00:58:42.649
rantunes: As soon as the this was where the ant is historical, zam as important.

221
00:58:58.170 --> 00:58:59.769
rantunes: That put his in blue.

222
00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:50.380
rantunes: It's the spaces for them.

223
01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:51.030
rantunes: Let's go to.

224
01:02:13.960 --> 01:02:18.380
rantunes: It's it's properly assume there was. The the loss is appropriate to this

225
01:02:25.980 --> 01:02:32.600
rantunes: and the camilias bizarre the whole intact to.

226
01:02:34.350 --> 01:02:38.850
rantunes: And there's a few

227
01:03:53.260 --> 01:03:56.690
rantunes: in

228
01:04:26.090 --> 01:04:34.090
rantunes: the

229
01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:54.029
rantunes: what do you mean

230
01:08:10.930 --> 01:08:13.470
rantunes: that it

231
01:08:28.450 --> 01:08:34.680
rantunes: global

232
01:08:49.850 --> 01:08:50.860
rantunes: those.

233
01:10:53.420 --> 01:11:01.359
Thank you very much. We're followed now by Adrian Sotello, who give us this presentation. Thank you very much.

234
01:11:01.670 --> 01:11:06.820
A quick reminder that there will be time for Q&A. At the end of the presentations

235
01:11:08.070 --> 01:11:09.529
at the

236
01:11:10.590 --> 01:11:13.780
Adrián Sotelo: when a star is no chance, me as

237
01:11:18.680 --> 01:11:22.529
Adrián Sotelo: the

238
01:11:32.830 --> 01:11:34.539
Adrián Sotelo: on the

239
01:11:34.750 --> 01:11:39.259
Adrián Sotelo: in the

240
01:11:57.520 --> 01:11:59.060
Adrián Sotelo: they'

241
01:12:01.290 --> 01:12:04.160
Adrián Sotelo: he is

242
01:12:06.120 --> 01:12:07.190
Adrián Sotelo: I

243
01:12:21.490 --> 01:12:25.969
Adrián Sotelo: the central to Korea.

244
01:12:43.200 --> 01:12:44.650
Adrián Sotelo: he said, to know

245
01:12:59.070 --> 01:13:00.389
Adrián Sotelo: legal

246
01:13:07.190 --> 01:13:12.510
Adrián Sotelo: either. This was the whole year in synthesis.

247
01:13:12.560 --> 01:13:24.090
Adrián Sotelo:  Are you in to see one in this the moment

248
01:13:29.260 --> 01:13:33.539
Adrián Sotelo: in

249
01:13:51.630 --> 01:13:53.420
Adrián Sotelo: yours, lux.

250
01:13:54.460 --> 01:13:55.640
Adrián Sotelo: he

251
01:14:20.530 --> 01:14:22.050
Adrián Sotelo: bashi community.

252
01:14:50.490 --> 01:14:52.590
Adrián Sotelo: and if you are my English

253
01:14:53.690 --> 01:14:56.899
Adrián Sotelo: does, he must be in

254
01:15:02.680 --> 01:15:05.060
Adrián Sotelo: in

255
01:15:47.590 --> 01:15:49.290
Adrián Sotelo: even as classes.

256
01:15:54.280 --> 01:15:55.250
Adrián Sotelo: E.

257
01:16:08.760 --> 01:16:11.270
Adrián Sotelo: You see 6

258
01:16:37.050 --> 01:16:41.090
Adrián Sotelo: amarini, you know to

259
01:17:00.420 --> 01:17:03.469
Adrián Sotelo: it, will.

260
01:17:12.320 --> 01:17:15.080
Adrián Sotelo: Yeah, it

261
01:17:22.800 --> 01:17:24.219
Adrián Sotelo: you miss out those

262
01:17:29.540 --> 01:17:32.590
Adrián Sotelo: I don't. The

263
01:17:44.880 --> 01:17:49.190
Adrián Sotelo: okay

264
01:18:01.260 --> 01:18:06.810
Adrián Sotelo: is that the there's maybe a

265
01:18:21.060 --> 01:18:26.219
Adrián Sotelo: E in my lord, you also. we we

266
01:19:06.100 --> 01:19:08.069
Adrián Sotelo: in 2. So this through is

267
01:19:10.930 --> 01:19:13.900
Adrián Sotelo: A and as many as soon as they.

268
01:19:30.990 --> 01:19:31.940
Adrián Sotelo: Okay.

269
01:19:32.360 --> 01:19:35.029
Adrián Sotelo: he is staying there. Son.

270
01:19:35.800 --> 01:19:38.309
Adrián Sotelo: in the capital is more global.

271
01:19:52.120 --> 01:20:00.800
Adrián Sotelo: is on the E. A.

272
01:21:20.280 --> 01:21:24.120
Adrián Sotelo: In synthesis

273
01:21:46.670 --> 01:21:48.140
Adrián Sotelo: she will be. The

274
01:22:03.540 --> 01:22:05.440
Adrián Sotelo: is to explore the soon.

275
01:22:05.590 --> 01:22:33.080
Adrián Sotelo:  is the

276
01:22:42.710 --> 01:22:47.020
Adrián Sotelo: go on. La Cindensia. the

277
01:23:02.350 --> 01:23:10.889
Adrián Sotelo: at the

278
01:23:11.350 --> 01:23:12.650
Adrián Sotelo: dresses.

279
01:23:19.480 --> 01:23:24.330
Thank you, Adrian. At this point we will continue

280
01:23:24.430 --> 01:23:35.680
When I discussion in Espanyok, on Ricardo or in English. If there are questions we invite the the the presenters to talk to each other.

281
01:23:35.690 --> 01:23:54.540
And if there are any questions, and a reminder that this is the sort of formation of an idea of an edited volume with these presentations, and others that may have an interest in Mitos, and they should contact myself@critical.sociology at gmail.com, or Ricardo.

282
01:23:54.540 --> 01:24:06.580
at Ricardo della Bono at Manhattan, Edu. With that I will open the floor. If there are any comments, questions, concerns, please let us know.

283
01:24:11.930 --> 01:24:12.700
Good.

284
01:24:14.620 --> 01:24:42.350
I wanted to just note that Andres Piketas, who was unable to present from Spain due to very severe repay that he managed to pick up, and the bad hour of the Europeans, who are all asleep right now his paper is available by clicking on his name on the program. in.

285
01:24:42.440 --> 01:24:59.540
And it's the program I'd like to take advantage of the experts here on the panel that are so familiar with. it is the program I'd like to take advantage of the experts here on the panel that are so familiar with the Brazilian situation. Speaking, you know, Avlano Brazil.

286
01:24:59.540 --> 01:25:22.250
we Praganta is Lucy, and see mesaros of on a they a they a they, a interpretation, actuate the Brazil in in Pocos parloros. No, see if there's something in Mesos that would be useful to to you know, interpret the current situation in Brazil that it's basically I'd like to throw on the floor

287
01:25:26.530 --> 01:25:34.359
Murillo van der Laan: just to make sure I figured the guy raised her her hand as well. I think she got a question, Li Guy.

288
01:25:34.460 --> 01:25:37.089
Well, thanks, we can't. We can't see the chat here.

289
01:25:38.700 --> 01:25:45.779
Ligaya L McGovern: Okay, my question is, did Sarah's address the issue of gender?

290
01:25:45.980 --> 01:25:54.349
Ligaya L McGovern: Because we. It's very clear that capitalism is gendered because it will have implications on

291
01:25:54.430 --> 01:26:04.370
Ligaya L McGovern: the the constructing capitalism and recon and constructing Socialism under new Liberal regimes.

292
01:26:07.260 --> 01:26:14.539
Ligaya L McGovern: I'm address I. Any one of the or everybody can address can answer the question.

293
01:26:14.820 --> 01:26:19.080
Ligaya L McGovern: I mean, you're all men.

294
01:26:30.260 --> 01:26:45.520
rantunes: the

295
01:26:45.750 --> 01:26:54.670
rantunes: Mizarre's? I mean to not contribution Kazu Brazilian, you a Latino media, Colonel

296
01:27:02.590 --> 01:27:03.350
rantunes: Matt

297
01:27:28.120 --> 01:27:39.680
rantunes: in the

298
01:27:40.130 --> 01:27:47.340
rantunes: a. A. S. S. Is

299
01:30:02.540 --> 01:30:04.400
rantunes: this

300
01:30:34.270 --> 01:31:14.000
 his name? I, Adrian Ukraine.

301
01:31:14.000 --> 01:31:18.689
Iimarini? A. If I'm also a Taurico de la to Bendenzia

302
01:31:18.690 --> 01:31:34.780
just to just we we we we bought the discussion towards the Marini and the theories of dependency, the famous Brazilian theorist, and we'd have some experts that have published on that matter. We do intend to return to the gender question

303
01:32:00.980 --> 01:32:05.750
Adrián Sotelo: nowhere with a real assume. This is a

304
01:32:15.880 --> 01:32:20.370
Adrián Sotelo: I would you

305
01:32:58.990 --> 01:33:07.490
Adrián Sotelo: so, young Quin. True it must be in. I I compliment to I

306
01:33:45.830 --> 01:33:48.230
Adrián Sotelo: they

307
01:34:04.310 --> 01:34:08.930
Adrián Sotelo: it in this. Basically. That is. it's okay.

308
01:34:53.370 --> 01:34:55.780
Adrián Sotelo: multi-polar.

309
01:35:00.680 --> 01:35:07.639
Adrián Sotelo: the

310
01:35:50.490 --> 01:35:52.220
Adrián Sotelo: if we go to the moon.

311
01:35:53.610 --> 01:35:54.960
rantunes: Ricardo.

312
01:37:36.790 --> 01:38:01.770
on this question of a guy that you've raised, which is extremely important one and that notwithstanding, I mean, I would say that clearly. You know the analysis for me, for masados clearly focuses on the capital class relation and the state relation. And you know again, that's it. For example, in beyond the state beyond Le Leviathan is very little discussion of of gender. It's not the purpose, you know, the focus of the

313
01:38:01.959 --> 01:38:26.640
of the writing, but I think I think also, we've heard in the earlier discussions of dependency theory, and I think you know, with Adrian and and Carlos Eduardo Martin as well, having published, Extensively and in in English recently, on the dependency in the theories of Marini, and the counterposing to the more bourgeois theories of dependency, I think that you know. the work clearly lends itself. And what we've heard today

314
01:38:26.670 --> 01:38:51.360
to the compatibility between Mesodos and and these. And in this, you know this theoretical work with different focuses. Clearly Mesodos talks about the importance of, you know the sort of periphery periphery center relations, and yet at the same time, of course, dealt with the revolutionary challenges presenting in itself to Venezuela, and, you know, to Cuba into other cases. So I think the

315
01:38:51.360 --> 01:39:00.699
the relevance is quite clear, but I want to monopolize the discussion that we have other questions or comments. Yes, we have a question here on the from the floor. If you could

316
01:39:00.700 --> 01:39:03.870
speak to the microphone. They can hear you.

317
01:39:12.570 --> 01:39:24.619
Carlos Eduardo Martins: It's a little Shawn. I've been.

318
01:41:55.950 --> 01:42:02.650
And we have a question.

319
01:42:04.630 --> 01:42:16.849
Yeah, but I got we want to set the alienate. So I'm Josh Klein at Iona University in New York.

320
01:42:16.890 --> 01:42:26.650
and I have. I'm so happy to be in the company of these Mazaros experts. I have a couple of dumb questions, and then I have a provocation that's not quite as dumb

321
01:42:26.820 --> 01:42:33.580
The dumb questions are, can someone give me an elevator speech, a short explanation of mediation.

322
01:42:33.840 --> 01:42:55.219
And the other one is, I'm struggling with capital versus capitalism. Those are my 2 naive questions, my provocation. And it's just not just to be provocative is some, but somewhere. Mazzaro says that the Soviet Union, or actually existing, so Communism Socialism had nothing to do with Socialism. He's very adamant.

323
01:42:55.440 --> 01:42:58.470
and my reaction to that is that that's not correct.

324
01:42:58.580 --> 01:43:22.869
There were not to take away the under undemocratic and autocratic nature of the existing Socialism. I think we have to acknowledge that there was. I would call it, socialistic right? You had a reduced inequality. You had. someone said today, the the overthrowing of the capitalist class, these are real things. So I'm I'm kind of poking at the problem that

325
01:43:23.000 --> 01:43:50.480
on the one hand, and I think none of us would want to call with the Soviet Union, the happy Socialist, you know. goal, on the other hand, just like talking about social democracy and capitalist countries. I want to acknowledge that there was progress. There was, you know, it's not an accident that in surveys, some years after the nineties, the economic disaster in the Soviet Union that a huge portion of of Russians were nostalgic. Right?

326
01:43:50.480 --> 01:44:01.439
So I'm I'm just poking at this problem. I don't want to let Mazaros get away with saying there was nothing about Socialist, you know. about that. Those those regimes.

327
01:44:01.670 --> 01:44:14.900
Thank you. Excellent in in in resuming itema, the mediasion so unpolria explicit in pocas v laureas. That's the key significant in in terminos. They masaros medieval

328
01:44:14.910 --> 01:44:36.220
is a gondo ever-in-a-lapolymeka sobre a Socialismo, a real commodity. Kamo-saharisi is the E-mei. lod for massion! They are status that Al-isosalismo's tale, e i komo masado's aparante a no-record no say sousa Vancis. And I see in resilience

329
01:44:38.180 --> 01:44:51.290
capital versus capitalism.

330
01:44:51.400 --> 01:44:52.260
Adrián Sotelo: Okay.

331
01:44:53.580 --> 01:44:57.179
Sierra Leone, K. Sierra Commentar. And so this. So

332
01:45:04.270 --> 01:45:05.710
Adrián Sotelo: so

333
01:45:23.260 --> 01:45:27.690
Adrián Sotelo: is this

334
01:46:21.930 --> 01:46:29.570
Adrián Sotelo: the

335
01:46:30.770 --> 01:46:41.419
which is in the grasses and Korea. We're going to see Mario Eo. Kayo, Korea, commenter-arago, Pakistanos, Alotimos, Minutito's Kinoskira and the Kesera system.

336
01:46:42.320 --> 01:47:07.449
Murillo van der Laan: Should I should I go first or or no, I'll just be really brief about about Brazil as well. From the point of view of of of nature and totality, and also the question of of of of of gender. I think the radicality of of Msad is is really important here, and this kind of expansion is growth.

337
01:47:07.450 --> 01:47:32.450
Murillo van der Laan: and the need for red card alternatives as as he car dimension as Carlos as well, because well, we. We are facing this kind of expansion a destructive expansion. And here in Brazil. This has, a, a, a direct impact on the rest of the nature we still got here. And this is not a only a problem about Bolson I. This is a also a problem about the kind of data

338
01:47:32.450 --> 01:47:35.710
that that the workers party

339
01:47:35.710 --> 01:47:48.200
Murillo van der Laan: put forward in the best. And it's putting now as well, we are we, we are dealing this year. We are Deal, we. We deal with the the idea of exploiting oil in the Amazon coast

340
01:47:48.220 --> 01:48:08.600
Murillo van der Laan: and and petrobras under the workers party leadership was pushing forward. this. In. There was a rift inside the government, but anyway, the the there is a a a sector, a very strong sector inside the workers party that is trying to push this this idea forward. Of course

341
01:48:08.600 --> 01:48:19.829
Murillo van der Laan: it's not the same as as the kind of destruction that the both of them who try to to do. But it is. It's too important, and I think Mizzan is quite important here, because

342
01:48:19.940 --> 01:48:41.649
Murillo van der Laan: he sets the the floor of this kind of naturalization of capital, the and and the way, the even, the the the left, cannot escape from from this and about about gender as well. I just want to to. Briefly, we we regard the nation, and it's really important about the the question of of of family, and I think in that chapter Ms.

343
01:48:42.060 --> 01:49:06.750
Murillo van der Laan: Talks about the importance of the the women's, and we women struggle and about reproduction inside of the structural crisis of of capital. But he puts, he puts in a very different way, for instance, of Elling Woods, Writing at the same time, because another great Marxist as well. But Ellen Wood was saying things like, Okay.

344
01:49:06.750 --> 01:49:14.390
Murillo van der Laan: human women women agenda can be can't be actually

345
01:49:14.820 --> 01:49:33.250
Murillo van der Laan: supersede can can can actually be embraced by by capitalism. We can it? It can be done here. And this is is saying, no, sorry it it's it's not. It's not possible. Which means that there is a very anti capitalist strength

346
01:49:33.250 --> 01:49:58.110
Murillo van der Laan: in in. In. They struggle about reproduction, of course, just to. To sum up, this is very limited as well in the sense of the gender. The discussion is much broader than than the women's question, and Mizzardo's focus on that. So there's much more to be to be addressed there. But I think he he puts a very interesting points in that chapter that we are to mention

347
01:49:58.840 --> 01:50:20.210
very good point, and a very important reference for us. And I would add, in the spirit of Lagaya's question, in particular in the context of Brazil. you know that we didn't raise the theme, the issue of of race, and how race may be discussed within his. You know, contextualization of colonialism, etc. Cal, did you want to do? You have the final word as we're at the

348
01:50:20.520 --> 01:50:39.370
Caio Antunes: I'll try it to be as brief as I can. in very, very, very quick lines. capital is a social metabolic relation. which is, we could we could say, set on a a horizontal or 2 historical

349
01:50:39.370 --> 01:50:54.159
Caio Antunes: notion or approach These social metabolic relation of capital has modes, has historic specific forms of realization and happening, and the most advanced

350
01:50:54.310 --> 01:51:23.740
Caio Antunes: form of a manifestation of this social, very wide, very abstract form of relation is the capitalist mode of production. They are in the capital and capitalism are not in the same set, on the same, a line of analysis as we could see, and very, very, very quickly. The the critic that mesaros addresses to post capital post capitalist capsule systems, couple of countries, capital areas. does not this consider

351
01:51:23.760 --> 01:51:24.570
Caio Antunes: the

352
01:51:24.650 --> 01:51:50.989
Caio Antunes: achievements, this, the real movements and the real conquest in several areas, the women's emancipation or women's struggle art, urban organization, schooling, education, and and so on, and so on, and so on. What he consider is in these countries, where, although lots and lots of important advancements, advances, or or important things were conquered

353
01:51:51.410 --> 01:52:09.509
Caio Antunes: in this movement that does not, constitute what we could understand as Socialism, as a movement, a process of transition to another social metabolic system, and another mode of production.

354
01:52:09.510 --> 01:52:25.909
Caio Antunes: mode of production, or another relate social relation. The Communist, one set or anchored, and another kind of labor, not a kind of work. The work of the freely associated human beings or workers. that said.

355
01:52:27.270 --> 01:52:40.150
Caio Antunes: even though. And then we record we return to Ms hours, even though with all of those achievements important. One's very, very important. Once they were one by one a losing strength

356
01:52:41.000 --> 01:52:45.800
Caio Antunes: and the whole capitalist mode of production. Would

357
01:52:45.800 --> 01:53:13.350
Caio Antunes: a a a A return to to to be the the the mode of protection, dominance in those areas, and that is taking course as it 2, of course, already in the so called so, so, so, so Soviet Union and the Eastern Europe. And it's it's taking its course in different ways in the other, so called Socialist, or even Communist countries, sorry to be as as as quick and as as as as

358
01:53:13.660 --> 01:53:38.900
Caio Antunes: as screwed as that, but not to perfect. Thank you so much. I do the other sessions about to try to come in. So while they're applauding in the background with the outlook and thanks for making the effort that speaking in English and it's been an honor to be part of this program, and we look forward to producing a book out of these discussions, and we'll be in touch about that. thank you very much.

359
01:53:39.680 --> 01:53:40.489
You back.