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So good morning. Everyone. Welcome to the second session of Rc. 57, and before we start.

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and On behalf of everyone gathered. I pay respect to the spirit of country. Here in arm

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where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and present colynation, or in Jerry or I Warum as the sovereign people here

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the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote numb aboriginal law customs, and Christmas to's custodianship responsibilities for country and the people.

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That country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

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I recognize the important contribution that first nation thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nations delegates in the room today for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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So now we can move to the first speakers. Today we have 3 speakers. they all have 20 min to speak, and then we will take questions after at the end not only there was a Ford speaker scheduled, namely, Carmen love mode, but she turned ill, so she sent me a message today that she couldn't come and not even not online. So

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so I invite the Max and Sam Holleran

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to the

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stand here.

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Yes.

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great

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Hi, everyone! Oh, sorry! It's just the arrow button to advance.

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Yep, my name is Sam Hollerin, and I wrote this paper with my brother Max, who's lecturer in social policy at the University of Melbourne. So this paper charts the course of survivor steel from the ruins of the World Trade Center to over 2,000 memorials across the world. Of the 200,000 tons of steel recovered, 95% was quickly recycled.

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but what remained was sacrificed and distributed to form local memorials. Unlike World War. One. Cenotaphs, located in town centers or large monuments and sit in capitals. 9, 11 still ended up in small memorials and office parks and traffic circles at the edge spaces of 20 first century suburban sprawl.

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using reports, interviews, and materials obtained from a freedom of Information Act. We analyze how dispersed memorialization honored the first responders across the Us. Enlarging the geography of trauma from lower Manhattan to the nation, and how memorials made by local crafts. People brought back themes of spoilation, entropy, and fear. From post-war sculpture we connect the curation, gifting and transportation of steel to a form of mourning with military antecedents

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as well as deliberate focus on strength and martial masculinity in the years immediately following the attack. Finally, this paper focuses on the civic importance of laying hands in survivor steel, showing that even in our digital age the demands of memory remain stubbornly tactile.

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When we think of 9 11, there is a memorial space that pops into our head. And one of the issues of the massive memorial at Ground 0 is that it's

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since it's been established. It sort of pushed out other forms of 9 11 memory. This presentation looks at a very different kind of memorial, a local and vernacular memorial made from salvage steel.

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and this was deliberately dispersed throughout the United States to make it so that this was not just a New York tragedy, but a national sorrow akin to the death of Abraham Lincoln or the attack on Pearl Harbor.

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So I'm interested in the community of processes inherent in city making, and 9 11, a massive tragedy from the recent past gives us a way to look at memory making memorial culture in the digital age, and we discover that that memorials are stubbornly tactile and analog

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so many of the initial memorials were ad hoc. This is a newspaper that passed every day walking to work in Brooklyn. It was put up the day after the attack. You can see the date on it, and it actually stood on this or it pasted onto this window for about 15 years, until 2,016, when, as you can see, it sort of disintegrated and fell apart.

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A lot of the other memorials that came after the attack came in the form of murals. These were fast forms of commemoration. Many featured the towers, sometimes even with smoke rising from them until this became a taboo. So in the months after the attack, the images of the attack effect effectively pulled from circulation and even network television had a 5 year ban on the showing of video clips from the attack. This is a not officially enforced but a handshake agreement among the major TV stations.

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So the pile at the World Trade Center site became a site for pilgrimage. These so called patriot tours. In the months after the attack in December of 2,001, an installation of ply of a plywood viewing platform designed by the architects Diller, Schofidio, and subtly echoing Myelin's Vietnam War Memorial was placed at the site so that people could could come and and look over into it.

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Immediately after the attack. On the evening of September eleventh, trucks, laden with debris, were already making their way from the World Trade Center site to the fresh Kill's landfill on Staten Island.

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but very soon afterwards determined that while a sorting station at fresh kills

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would it was manned by the FBI, and it would process 1.8 million tons of debris

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that would only be crushed concrete. The steel was not able to be processed on that site.

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This has to do with the fact that landfills are actually very fragile environments, layered like a cake of different areas of of

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of refuse, so they couldn't support the weight of the steel. So instead, the steel was transferred across the Hudson River to New Jersey scrap yards and ultimately sold on the International Steel Recycling Market.

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Bear with me for 1 min, won't we?

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Hmm.

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Really sorry

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where it does in advance to hide the controls?

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It doesn't. It's okay. I think we need to keep the

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okay. That's all right. So this September the 20 third close up shows steel being loaded onto barges.

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and within 6 months most of the steel from 9 11 was recycled across the world and mostly to India, to Turkey and to China, and sometimes buyers weren't fully aware of the inauspicious origins of this product.

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So and here you can see even more of a close up the barges in the That circular! Insert the barge that's taking the steel across the river is in the upper right-hand corner. So why did this happen? One was to clear the site and to secure the infrastructure underneath.

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the World Trade Center site is above a massive kind of pasta of different arterial train lines that need to be back in operation. Another was actually very strongly influenced by this Israeli mode of post attack Cleanup, where things are returned to order as quickly as possible. to show that everyday life has not been disturbed by a terrorist attack.

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so

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it's not that the site was sanctified, but the materials weren't perceived as such, except for a few that were pulled from the rubble.

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These materials, were actually the the site was managed by the port authority of New York and New Jersey, and early on the port authority, sent out a team of curators who worked in parallel to a team of FBI agents, who were also collecting steel as evidence of of this large crime. But the port authority team of curious was actually looking for something different. They they weren't investigating the the crime, but they were tasked with identifying 3 chapters

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of the World Trade Center's life. The years before 9 11, the day of the attack and the aftermath. It's a small group of people, including Bart forsonger, who was the chair of the Design Review committee at the port authority. An art curator named solved venegrat and a couple of assistants, and they would basically just go with a flatbed truck and point a piece of steel and say, load that one on

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all of this stuff ended up in a massive hangar at the. So I think one slide is missing. Yeah, okay, so here's

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A look at some of the emergency operations processes.

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All the stuff ended up at a massive hangar called Hangar 17 at Jfk. Airport, and it was laid out on the floor under a huge American flag, and once it was there it was largely forgotten. For 5 years it was accessible to some vips. Congress, people, senators, others for these walkthroughs, which became a kind of select

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pilgrimage, and when we spoke to for a song, he said.

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after one of these tours. I thought, these guys don't have to build a multi-million dollar memorial. All they got to do is bring people out here. It was just so raw, and you could smell it, and and virtually almost taste it.

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But what was happening in Hanger 17 was that while the steel was out of public view, it was slowly entering, a process of relic, making it. It was in this disappearance for 5 or 6 years that allowed it to come out the other end as a modern relic.

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So, coming up on the tenth anniversary of 9 11, there was a feeling that official memorials at the Wtc. At the Pentagon, and in the Pennsylvania town, close to the crash site of unite airlines, flight 93 were taking far too long to complete. So fire. Departments on the groups began to broker memorials with salvage steel.

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and at the same time the Port authority moved to release some of its collected steel via an Rfp. Process. This is an early memorial at Shanksville, in Pennsylvania, close to where united Flight 93 went down. it's a bit different than some of the later memorials, and that it's been painted which later becomes something that was kind of forbidden. The steel was meant to be presented in its raw form, and, as you can see, the the Christian symbolism is obvious. This is also a function of the way that

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steel beams work in infrastructure, that you have a lot that form a natural cross-like shape. But the selection of this was obviously very intentional.

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So the port Authority codified their guidelines with this request for proposals, and this listed group's interest in acquiring a piece of World Trade Center steel for public display email chains, fire department magazines and list-serves helped to spread the word

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in a pre-internet or pre-social media era, and by early 2,009 there was lots of requests like this one coming in.

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So through of freedom of information request, we received the initial inventory of steel.

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Some were able to review multiple pieces of steel, but in many occasions it seems that steel was selected for civic organizations based on just size constraints alone.

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What's interesting is this was still venerated like a relic, despite the fact that the selection process of the initial steel had been relatively haphazard, and it only represents about one to 2% of the total steel that was used in the world trade centers. that the rest of the 98 to 99% was went to just scrap

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 So steel was often met by military procession and given honors.

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The fragments are standard, not only for the destruction of the buildings, but for the violence done to human bodies, and over 1,000 of the bodies, that of people lost in the World Trade Centre were not recovered.

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The port authorities distribution of steel, which happened between 2,009 and 2,012 helps to create a way for people with the built-up grief of 9 11 to symbolically express it, while after the event, and and Durkheim stresses the importance of a family group grieving together to reinforce their sense of security and togetherness.

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and the sociologist of of death. Tony Walter kind of expands on that. To say that this is this could be a national family as well. That! And notes that disasters can unify a nation. Spontaneous memorials act as a grief, right with feelings of insecurity, to help dispel feelings of insecurity, and to shore up the existing moral and social order. And that's certainly the case when it comes to 9, 11 memorials in the United States.

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Oh. let's see if this works. This is meant to be an animated gift with all of these small installations that sprang up across the United States.

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maybe. Oh, yeah, I just have to start it. So there are thousands of these memorials across the United States. Some of them are, as I mentioned before, in very mundane suburban environments in strip malls on parking Medians. Some of them are in more fraught areas, and and there are about 12 or 13 across the world, including one at the NATO headquarters in Brussels, one in London's Olympic quarter

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one in a small town in Germany that was organized by a local American German friendship organization, and one in a traffic circle in Ilat Israel. They're also contentiously 3 memorials that were located in Kabul that were at the time of the writing. This article abandoned when the Us. Hastily withdrew.

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So there's no template for these memorials per se, but they end up preserving the materiality of the steel. The port authorities guidelines specify that the steel was not to be altered, although the pieces themselves had been cut down, for to facilitate movement.

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and any kind of further trimming or drilling into the steel was only allowed, when absolutely necessary to mount it, and the filings and scraps that came from that steel were meant to be interred along with the memorial in a purpose-built structure.

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I think I'm running a little bit low on time, so I don't have that much to say about how these reference post-war sculpture of ruination

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was struck while doing this research, at how much something like Clement Meadmore is crossed from 1,961, which is on display at the National Gallery of Art in Canberra. For shadows! This work, although a lot of the work of the steel memorials were done by local craftsmen who may not have had the art historical knowledge to reference these works directly, but it is something that could have kind of percolate up in the collective consciousness of what a memorial looks like in this day and age.

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Not all the steel pieces are built into memorials. A small number went on tour, showing up in high schools and at fairgrounds for people to inspect in the manner of saintly relics. This one is at very aptly named Corpus Christi, Texas.

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at a high school.

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and the tactile nature of this material also encouraged the laying of hands, and that becomes really important at memorial ceremonies on the anniversary of 9, 11.

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One thing it's important to note is that the sacred steel monuments concentrate overwhelmingly on the 343 firefighters and 71 law Enforcement officers, who died in 9 11, prioritizing a narrative of blue-collar, male heroism and sidelining other victims, such as the 73 restaurant workers

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from windows in the world who hailed from dozens of different countries, or, for that matter, the 658 financial service workers who perished at just the firm of Canter Fitzgerald alone.

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So the steel of 9 11 is imbued with conflicting emotions. It's an emblem of closure organizing civic attention at sites of grieving and solace.

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But it's also encouraging militarism and celebrating an almost primordial fascination with strength

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in the distribution placement of survivors. Still, we can see the sacralization of the common building material. But there's also an emergent form of memorialization which small towns and suburbs receive a a literal piece of treasure from a faraway structure fraught with geopolitical significance.

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Thank you.

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Time you.

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We can move to the second a paper by Irvine Irving, Gra from the Philippines.

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The ship. It's house.

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Okay.

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So we've been taken.

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This one.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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just open my stop watch.

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Okay, hello. Good morning. Everyone. So my name is Irvine Grana, and I am from the Philippines. And today I am going to be presenting my work type of visualizing organization and legitimacy.

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The case of a Women-led Urban Poor Community Association in barangay Tata, and Philippines. and of course I would like to start by recognizing, you know, the support I was able to get from the Center for Women and gender studies at our university.

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So I will start by seeing that there's occurred. But some scholars have described as a visual to in organizational research. So there's a force in much that needs to be done to bridge the fields of organizational sociology and visual sociology. But nonetheless, there have been attempts to capture the ways in which organization legitimacy is constructed in visual and material terms.

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So what do I mean when I speak of organization, of legitimacy? So most scholars of organizations adopt a function in this definition of organizational legitimacy by defining the concept, as in generalized perception or assumption, that the actions of an entity are desirable, proper, or appropriate within some socially constructed systems of norms, values, beliefs, and definitions. I'm drawing here from the, you know, definition of a supplement. But in contrast

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others. Other scholars take a more perceptual approach

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process with an agentic approach to the concept. Scholars that do so look into the ways in which legitimacy can be negotiated, constructed, challenged, and maintained to everyday interactions. You also see legitimacy as an ongoing process whereby organizations engage in activities that allow them to construct compelling justifications for their existence, and, moreover, they emphasize the multiplicity of ways by which organizations construct their social value and persuade other actors to lend their support.

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But what I would like to suggest for today is that the precessual approach to organization and legitimacy lacks an explicit account of power. There is, in other words, a need for us to look at, to how power manifests, and the process by which organisation and legitimacy is constructed. I was just asking for us to visualize how this happens.

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Right so. But so to address this gap, I would like to present the case of the Tatagon chapter

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and just some background of the organization, you know. so And that alone was established in 2,018, with involvement of

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Commune to organizers affiliated with national democratic mass organizations in the Philippines. I will talk about Nbmos in greater detail later on, but for now it's suffices to say that the L. And that alone does not organize around a particular ideology. Rather their formation was motivated by the immediate concern for housing in Barangre. That'llon, a village located in the Fourth district of Kansas City, Philippines.

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This concern is of great significance to female renters and shares that comprise the majority of the population, that the Lempat alone seeks to or organizes right now.

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Now, plm, that alone is one of the many community-based organizations that comprise

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that organizes residents of the button guys. So But on guys, basically is community in the Philippines, right? And the organization has also a comprised of about 800 shaver renters organized into a centralized organizational structure that consists of 17 chapters.

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so to their. To the case of that alone I saw to illustrate 4 mechanisms, but which domination, force, and influence are exercised over moral, pragmatic, and regulative processes of legitimation. So this is my conceptual framework. should they explain? Okay, I just explain the last one for the sake of time. but

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in the last part where I'm going to be focusing on how? specifically, I will look at an organization's efforts, alliance building, and how it causes mission drift right? So this mechanism involves the exercise

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of influence over the construction of pragmatic legitimacy. So here, when you talk about pragmatic legitimacy, we're talking about legitimacy constructed in the basis of self interest. Right? So here, in the case of and pragmatic legitimacy was constructed on the basis of housing

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right? So there was this expectation that if I joined the organization I might be prioritized in housing, or I might have a chance in getting housing right? So influence in this, so influencing the sense is exercised in a manner that we lead organizations to begin adopting organizing strategies that do not represent the most immediate interests of their constituents. Hence they being a stray from their proposed objective.

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So this is what we call mission drift in the

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organ in the literature and organization. So for my methodology, very briefly, I use a combination of traditional qualitative methods and visual methods. I conducted this study from September 2022 to March 2,023, and most of the analysis I make in the first paper I wrote, draws from interviews and ethographic data.

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But what I hope to show is that the visual that they had gathered adds another layer of depth to some of the analysis I need. So I used to visual ethnography. I did 4 phot elicitation interviews I use. I also use found visual data.

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So I will now divide the finding section of my paper which I yeah, yet to write into 2 parts. So the first part describes my respondents as aspirations for housing right, and how this is sort of the basis on which the constructed pragmatic digitimacy.

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And then the second part looks into alliance building ambition, drift more closely

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so, as I had mentioned previously, P. And tap alone, formation was motivated by the immediate concern for housing, so all of my 24 into 24 interviews expressed aspirations for the house of their own. But these aspirations were expressed in light of their material condition. So here's some visual data that respondents shared with me. during our refer to alicitation interviews. So the first 2 photos captures.

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the anxiety the 2 of my respondents feel every time bringing good poor right in their their community. So it is worth noting that Barangret, that alone is a low-lying area that the Casin City local government unit has classified as a danger zone, and a lot of slum communities in the Philippines are not classified as dangerous zones.

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since many encounter I'm severe flooding during the wet season, so even a few minutes of rain would be a cause of really an anxiety for those who might have talked to and know that. These are pictures of their homes right there, or surroundings of their homes, and what? There's no authority that these are where pictures that are not taken during the typhoon, right? So they were taking any normal, rainy day. So just imagine the disaster that they dive phone can bring to their community.

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Now, this is a picture of a makeshift flood wall that residents have constructed. So Bangladesh is located by a river like specifically the sun. Who one river right? so this is also another reason why, if so, they can get so severe during typhoons, typically these flood was would be constructed by the local government unit, and they would be tall, right? But you know they they would be made of cement right? But the residents had to make do with whatever resources they had to stop rainwater from flooding their homes.

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And this is another picture that they responded. Share with me to now through this picture. She was expressing her disappointment and frustrations, because some residents began constructing houses on top of the wall right when in her, where they shouldn't be there. So See here, right there is this banner with the red Malay on it, and there's this literally a wall in the top of it, or houses, right? So she was describing her frustration. People are constructing how it is on top of.

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And very briefly, this is a picture that we know, one respond that used to describe your aspirations for housing.

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This is a picture that she took in a visit to her province, and she said that she wanted to build a house here one day that so her a poor or grandchild can have a place, too.

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I'm living.

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So these are just some of the pictures. that I use alongside the interviewing at the graphic data I had gathered to help us visualize Vladimir Putin's objective for housing right? This is sort of the basis on which they construct their legitimacy as an organization.

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Now, why, then, did the orbit of it? Now? Why, then, did the organization straight from the issue of housing? Right. I offer 2 reasons. The first is a matter of resources.

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and here I show how money can be a source of mission drift. But I won't talk about that for today, due to time constraints.

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but what I would like to talk about is how missionative can occur on the basis of position. Right. So I would like to talk. I would like to focus on how influence had been exercised over processes of legitimation in the alliance that Plm Katalon had built with national democratic mass organizations in the Philippines.

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So

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the term Nash, the term, and DM. OS describes sectoral organizations that form a part of the broader national democratic movement in the Philippines. I'm a leftist coalition that adheres to the program of Third World nationalism and martyrdom. Lenin. The same with Maoism.

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Now this movement advances a critique of Philippine society as being semi-fuda, semi-colonial and bureaucrat capitalists, and in the Philippines right national Democratic mass organizations constitute the most I I I would see established left this formation in our country in comparison to other lettuce formations. Right? So they're they're very established right?

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And even in my university. They have, you know, a huge huge base of support right in the Us. University of the Philippines in demand.

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So here, because of mission, there was a basis of it was a matter of position. so the picture you're seeing is it's it's significant for 2 reasons. Right? So the first is, it is significant because it is indicative of The fact that the limp at the loan that's not organized solely on the basis of housing. So there are 2 banners here. The first is

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the first one here. It has quick distribution of food packs for those studied in branches at the loan. The second is basic at the band for 10,000 passes from the government during times of calamities. Right? But this is picture is also significant. because you can also see 2 banners here. So the first one here.

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Yes, there, right? Which are basic indicative of that's affiliations. Right? So in and outside the Olympic to lunch office you may find a sweetheart for the of people like Mary Corn Minoris, a senatorial kind of that affiliated with the dash for democratic movement at the Philippines. And here in the previous speaker, you see here. a, you know, dark police of bay and Muna right they are. a party list, right affiliated with national democratic mass organizations.

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And, in fact, in inside the office you would also see pictures or targets of Danny Roberto, right? the Presidential candidate whom Nba most had supported recently. So they're basically indicative of the affiliations of

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on the

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now, the affiliations have direct consequences to how plans that have been organized. For instance, at the time of my involvement And they most had sought to organize a sectoral campaign around the slogan. so in in the Philippine, it's how it's as precious to note that the slogan intended to popularize workers demands for better wages and cheaper goods across the country.

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But this company interfered with the Lepid One's own company for housing and crucial, where individuals and community organizers aligned with and sympathetic and the Mo agenda. So I would just explain this picture very briefly. So this is a picture of a rally that members of the elm that attended right. And this was a picture that was my responders for default elicitation to be shared with me. This is significant, because, you see, at the center of the picture, a stage

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right? And my response was saying that the focus of that value at that time wasn't necessarily housing right. But they were focusing for focus on the issue of wages, jobs, public services, and right. So housing, which was the issue upon which the organization. But legitimacy wasn't necessarily the issue that was focused on during this event, and even other events which I am going to talk about

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later on.

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Now. this picture is also significant because it shows you what kind of campaign paraphernalia members of the alien. But the one had begun posting around your community because it's been because the involvement of other organizations that had their own campaigns right. So on the right to see on a community organizer, and on the left, you see on the left to see if you need to organize, and it's on the right, you see. a local right. So this sort of became the campaign. So how did I special about re-swages over prices?

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Now, very briefly, I also observed this. I also observed mission drift occurring in the demo session where Nash, Organizers affiliate with the and the movement invited an artist to perform songs. I couldn't feed an explicitly political message.

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So the event took place in an area where, just 3 weeks prior community leaders had an orientation upon the request of a resident who had heard of Peele at the Lun's housing campaign. But the housing of pain was not the highlight of the demo session. Rather, how did as especially about this campaign on wages had been prioritized. So commit organizers hung pieces of thought wearing the slogan behind the stage where the artists had performed.

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so yeah, you see this, it's 1 one example, and they also distributed flyers, invited residents to a burger's forum and offered screen printing for those that wanted on their shirts customized with the slogan.

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So the last picture is also significant, because it is a picture of the tar put in that that that I had used when they participated in the know the Gp face out campaign in the Philippines. So it's a big background, right? Japanese are the most common form of public transportation in our country. So the Government had had plans to face them out and replace them with a much more, more, with much more. I thank you so much with

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With a more emerging modern versions of public transportation. Now, Ntmo organizations had organized a week long strike to oppose these pants and P. Them had participated. Now the targeting that you see.

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we're seeing in front of you. It's just one in what indication of their of their participation, right? So immediately and so rehabilitation, not not face out just transition towards modernization.

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Jamie, modernization, not to be face out. So these were basically this is basic indicative of their participation in this particular campaign, and I also illustrate to ethographic data how their participation this company had basically shifted away time and resources from their own campaign, which essentially was a basis for their own legitimacy as an organization

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so very briefly discussion and conclusion so

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What I tried to show here is that what I tried to show through my paper is basic a way by which we can conceptualize the process by which organizations construct a legitimacy to a more after an approach that is called the of power.

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Right? So I'm trying to show you that organizations operate in very complex institution environments. So typically they don't organize solely under one issue. They organize on lots of issues, right? But there's This issue of power involved. Right? They organize around these issues because influence has a role to play in it right? Other organizations, influenced them to organize around their campaign and they try to influence them, to organize around their line.

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So To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Alliance building is bad, right? But what I am suggesting is that it can lead organizations to straight from their proposed objective. And this phenomenon of mission to it's not only something that has consequences to an organization legitimacy, but it is also something that we can visualize. And that's what I saw 2% today.

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so thank you for listening and feel free to contact me through this evil if you have any questions or concerns.

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Thank you.

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So we can move to our third and last speaker. Sabina Andro Orandrum.

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Okay.

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this one.

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Hello. I'm Sabina Andron. I'm based at the University of Melbourne, and I just moved here 4 months ago, and I'm doing a postdoc at the Center for cities.

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And today I'm going to talk to you a bit about my work.

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There is not a single urban culture that is not defined by the way it uses its public walls and surfaces.

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No city in the world that does not regulate the circulation of people and goods through written and displayed signage on its road surfaces, pavements, and purposefully designed street signs.

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No street whose function and identity are not en meshed with the materials and displays on its surfaces, announcing what is available what is permitted

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and implying who makes the decisions.

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We identify the location of shops and find products through advertising signage like billboards, hand-painted shop signs or stickers with phone numbers announcing the provision of a service.

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We protect property and goods through boundary-making devices which announce their function and warn of the consequences of breaching their instructions. Danger! Keep out

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warning. This land is not for sale. This area is covered by a public space Protection Order Park. Here, at your own risk.

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We create atmospheres through animating and painting walls, and we celebrate the characters and values they confer to cities.

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We demand political change by writing on wars and develop collective identities through shared public texts. And yet

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urban surfaces and their inscriptions are often missing from our focus, both as urban dwellers and as built environment researchers.

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So the research I'm bringing to you today is an attempt to generate a methodological tool kit for understanding urban surfaces.

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Services taught me most of the things I know about cities.

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I began this journey by researching graffiti.

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and one of the questions I was always asked is, why wasn't interviewing graffiti writers, artists, producers of surface markings, wrestle people.

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and there are, of course, valuable voices which can help us understand a great deal about lived experiences of urban spaces and claims to occupation and participation.

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However. what was missing from here

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was an account that privileged the material, the semiotic.

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the embodied capacities of surfaces.

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and took a more holistic approach to these, to the types of lessons they offer beyond the specific types of surface inscriptions. Because there is, of course, and most of you will be familiar with this. There is a lot of research on graffiti, on posters, on traffic signs, but looking at how they operate holistically in place.

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So I set myself the task of creating a method to interpret surfaces which took most of its readings from the surfaces themselves.

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touching, pressing, chipping, photographing. Indeed, a lot of that befriending. measuring.

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empathizing. There is a Dutch architectural scholar who writes about. He wrote a book on Ruskin, and he speaks about this sympathy of matter. What what stones feel when his name is Lars Boybrick, or I should have said so. He he says I am with the stones. So this kind of so empathy with matter.

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New materialism does this as well from the geography, literature, listening, observing, sticking together, and contributing

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to foreground the extraordinary capacity of this space to capture regulation and descent, financialization and atmosphere, decay and injustice, but most importantly, to be an integral, necessary component of so many modes of inhabiting the city and the built environment.

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So I'm I'm calling this interviewing walls. This is where I first experimented with it. in this book, which came out in 2,018.

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so the method, when I say interviewing was it's it's less an imagined dialogue. Hello, Mr. Wall, how are you today? Oh, I'm fine thanks! And then I transcribe that. So it's it's not a dialogue with a non-human interlocutor.

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despite the fact that it does imply direct questions many times, but it's more a series of prompts, and they're prompt that the space gives, and then I try to extract them from the space with a question.

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So I found inspiration for this, and these are a couple of references that I you

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use for this particular method of interviewing the project picture in place is very good for this. They came up with

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kind of a a series of questions to ask, of images, to understand how they, what their roles are in creating urban change. then. this one here the is is kind of from a student Phd. Student guidebook. But nevertheless, if you're not familiar with it, I suggested. You look at it. It's a series of questions structured very well of how to ask questions of buildings.

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theoken! Dennis wrote. beautiful paper on what he defined as well. It's not his definition, but he used it to research graffiti to look at ghost ethnography. So how can we learn about places by the traces left behind.

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And then Thomas Oles. He wrote a book about walls, and he has a few questions that he asks of walls in that book? They're not direct question. They're not in the second person. But, he asks, should there be a wall? Is the wall contestable? Does it foster change? Does it support ecology? Does it nurture? And is the wall craft?

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And another inspiration I have particularly for situatedness and positionality comes from Timingold.

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He says, a theory. He has a beautiful paper on surfaces. He's one of the few surface theorists which is connected to the built environment more than art, history, or geography, or geology, for that matter.

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a theory of surfaces that practices what it preaches, must not only raise being up from the depths, but also take knowing down from the heights it must join with the texture of the world. I love this, and

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with its materials and processes answering to them as they to it. The practice of theory, in short, must be a modality of habitation, a way of thinking and working with stuff

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on a level with the materials of its trait.

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So all of these kinds of sources brought me closer to developing what Andrea Briganti called a Sociology of Walls, as he projected it. In this book, which came out in 2,019

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walls, protect the enclosed, they isolate display, interface, they perform, they fear, they segregate, they brand.

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they generate financial and political capital, they inside violence, they create publics.

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So these wall interviews are a methodological orientation based on a way of seeing.

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of being with the wall and the surface. Walking walking is very important, photographing, recording, observing, decoding. They are a visual and material ethnography of streets, walls, and inscriptions

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which does not directly interrogate human subjects. but rather draws its material from noticing the ways in which the city is writing itself.

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and I borrowed this from Alice and young, who's also based here at the University of Melbourne. She writes about street art. and I think this is a very powerful idea that the city is writing itself.

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The surface interrogations generate what I have called the semiotics of the surface.

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There are disciplines that have already developed this, and particularly people in this room will be familiar with them. we have, of course, it's a multi-modal way of understanding inscriptions, spaces, materials so semiotic landscapes. I'm sure you're familiar with that literature or linguistic landscapes, or I did the study of graffiti as street art, which is very developed by now.

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And which brought me to study surfaces to begin with. So I've been operating with this for a while, but my book is coming out this year. I'm very excited about this. So for the book.

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what I try to do is I sent a bunch of emails out, got a few replies from those. And I, got the people who are there to contribute a couple of questions to what could become a collectively written wall interview. So what would you ask a wall? And could we. And this is a project that I want to grow. And hopefully, after today I'll get a bit more energy to do that.

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So

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I decided to take this interview approach more literally in the book. and these are all colleagues whose work has been inspirational for the development of this work. So I asked them to address the wall surface directly with a few questions. So again, the strategy is less to imagine a dialogue, but more to try to create a certain disposition of inquiry and attunement

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with the urban surface. but several themes emerged.

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There were a few questions of materiality and situatedness.

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For example.

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are you set upon a foundation on the ground? Or does the ground rise itself rise like a fold into your body?

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Who and what are you in relation to your surroundings?

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How do you fit into a pattern, or stand out

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questions of communication and display?

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Are there older messages inscribed on your deeper layers that you wish were still broadly legible? Are you a billboard?

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And so some of the contributions. And this is something that I always pose is, how do you know.

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So that's the that's the extra layer of that.

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How does the surface, though? How does the researcher know? Questions of production and performativity?

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How long will I have to paint you before I'm interrupted.

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What have you seen and heard?

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How have you been treated, and by whom and how has this changed over time.

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management, securitization, and instrumentalization. How do we use surfaces

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to obtain specific goals of the protection of private property, for example, or indeed the protection of public order or the imposition of public order.

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How many cameras have you under surveillance? Do you feel safe? How many of you are there who signed you off.

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What meanings do you convey? What are your messages, and how do you speak?

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What grows on you and around you? There were quite a few questions that tackle the broader ecology of surfaces and walls. the epidermy texture

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of cities.

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Do you see yourself more of a separation

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or more of a meeting point.

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Whose land are you on?

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Who maintains you? And why?

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And perhaps more interestingly, particularly when reflecting on the method itself, are these questions of relationality and methodology which are about the relation between the researcher

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and the wall or the surface. So you know, there were a lot of questions of what time of day is best to visit you. Am I welcome any time or not? How do I know? Do you welcome me? Do you reject me? Do you ever dream about being another urban object? Isn't this beautiful?

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You go from being in the background to being in the foreground, depending on my focus. Do you ever think about me?

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I hope someone took a picture of you.

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So from all of these questions

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I've learned a few things.

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Urban surfaces are conditions and typologies of urban space, we should study them separately from everything else. We study buildings, streets, displays, surfaces are a specific type of space.

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They are spaces of distinctive morphological character which warrant focused and interdisciplinary study surfaces are not already there.

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They are always new spaces which come into being through collective production and interrogation.

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surfaces are made with each layer of matter of inscription that sticks to their body.

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There are capacities of publicness in cities.

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so I build on. The idea of space as capacity. I borrow it from Stavros Tavrid, who researches urban Commons. He's based in Athens. And and he speaks about this idea of space as capacity.

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And I think surfaces are capacities. There are capacities for publicness, and there is potential of political affirmation and of practicing spatial justice and co-production within the space of the surface. The surface is our commons. Thank you.

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they're not public. They're not private, but they're a type of collectively produced space. And I've written about this idea more. And in the book, certainly I explored this idea a lot about the surfaces as Commons

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urban surfaces demonstrate, demonstrate character.

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They generate semiotic atmospheres. This is a concept that I'm starting to explore now the one of semiotic atmosphere and demonstrate individual and collective grievances municipal agendas financial flows and aesthetic priorities.

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Urban surfaces are instruments of law making and law breaking.

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The law needs surfaces for at least 3 important operations.

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all of which also get undone in the same space of the surface, the protection of private property.

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the regulation of public order. And think here of all the urban governance strategies based on order, civility, efficiency, cleanliness, indeed, white walls.

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and the protection of cultural heritage. There. There are certain those of you who are from Melbourne, or are familiar to Melbourne. You'll know about the Keith Harring mural and how there is a lot of money that is invested in maintaining that because that particular surface is deemed to be

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of heritage value, and I would like to argue that all surfaces should be considered to have cultural heritage value.

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They are collaborative results of individual and often contradictory modes of urban inhabitation.

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I don't know if you can tell what this says.

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This is What I took during the pandemic in London.

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 Can you tell what it says?

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I don't know if it's clear enough?

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He says thing at home is class privilege, and obviously someone had to go out and clean that. So I think this is a very telling surface. Surface signs and inscriptions are the visible expression of ideas about cities, the challenges to those ideas, and the policies put in place to manage the tensions.

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I believe these tensions, expressed through public writing and surface occupation, are central to understanding urban public cultures around the world.

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And it's these tensions where I found one of the greatest lessons from surfaces.

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particularly when considering them in relation to urban property regimes, visibility and the right to the city, the right to urban life.

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Surface sides of

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our surface size of spatial and political productions.

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Surfaces are sites of spatial and political production where a multiple and more inclusive city can be pursued. And I've started this website recently at this place.

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and this in-stat account where I post one wall a day. this is. This is just what's happening, for now I do hope to grow it, and I hope to grow it with research coming from other people as well. but I think this should totally be a thing, and city surface surface research should be on discipline.

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Thank you.

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Thank you very much. I think these these were 3 wildly interesting papers, and I would like to.

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You can see here

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any questions. So anybody who has a question, could you please come up here? So the people at home can also

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you do? And we have a walking

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together at all.

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We know you're into services. So

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yeah.

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so

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you know.

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thank you all for your talks. I really really enjoyed.

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Let's talk some. I see a lot of resonances between them. I'm wondering. And in particular I'm interested to find out in the first

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paper.

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if you differentiate between

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a grave and a memorial. because it occurs to me that

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the ground 0 site is actually a cemetery. So it's it's a little different. And so I'm wondering if that factors into

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your

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discussion of of memorials.

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because it's.

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you know, dead people are there.

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And I was wondering for each of the papers, but particularly the the surface paper

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what your positionality is visa me

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your work.

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because it occurs to me that that

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the meaning potentials you take from surfaces.

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 very much depend on on who you are.

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So that's and another question. And finally, if I can get to this what is a surface

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for you?

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Because for me. The the road is is also an urban surface, and and what you're standing on so does that count in in your analysis?

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She does.

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 thank you for your question, my, my other research is actually about cemetery. So something I've thought about very deeply. I think that in terms of the monuments to 911. There is a disting stand in for bodies and for the

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groups, the survivors, groups. There's been a huge focus on the materiality of human remains going into this advanced science that's just developed even after the attacks to try and locate micro remains and to find them among the debris.

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I think that the memorials distinct from the grave the. And I think that in some ways it's really interesting, because in in the North American context which is informed by English law, grapes are meant to stand forever unlike in Continental Europe, where headstones are are taken down after 20 or 30.

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In some ways those memorials are just going to outlast the bodies below them, the morals and cemeteries, the headstones will outlast the human remains below them, and I think that because of the

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to an honor of for you please, now that memorials they will also

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last longer than any of the human remains from the attack, but the conditions around them will probably change dramatically, as you can see with the earlier crop of memorials from

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the First World War in the Second World War. You sometimes will, in, like a small British town, walk by a convenience store, and then just see a World war. One memorial kind of stuck into a corner next to it. So I imagine that

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the honor afford to memorials can be less than that, afford to cemeteries because they exist in public space things that they're not protected by a large number of them

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accumulate in one space together.

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So hello! I'm so in terms of my positionality. I guess the significant aspect of my position that before this paper, right is that I entered the field without any having any affiliation with on outside organizations, particularly Nba, was as I talked about, but the first of where my, they are, my friends right here, my friends, but

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For for example, whenever I, whenever community organizers would introduce me to other people, they would say, Oh, this is a researcher.

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I guess, to some extent that also played an important role in my analysis, because I think it helped me see, in a way how influence is going on, because I'm not

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in any way affiliated with them. Or, yeah. So I think that's

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yeah. That's my positionality. Yeah.

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thank you for those questions. I first

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bumped into the positionality issue. When I realized

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when I traveled to Africa, and I realized there was no graffiti in the particular place where I went. And and then that really made me question

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kind of the universe that I thought services supported because I think so, so much experience of Western urban environments. We kind of see the same kinds of marks, and so on surfaces and descriptions.

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So that kind of really opened my eyes to the fact that this kind of study is really needed, particularly in different places, because

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our expectations of what surfaces should look like, and who gets to be more visible and have more prominent voices, are wildly different in different parts of the world, and that

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the next stage of my research which I'd like to pursue. But I envision it

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much more collaboratively, collaboratively, that I have been doing this so far because I can. You know I I make friends of surfaces, but it's my head that generates all of this. So

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It's I'm at the stage. Now, where I'm looking for other input and kind of

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having different positionalities that notice different things as well.

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 and in terms of what counts as a surface. In fact, I was. I heard the paper yesterday, which was absolutely brilliant about potholes

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in Hyderabad, in India, and

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and I can't remember snake. I can't remember her surname now, but she was talking about how

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potholes and the experience of driving through this city. They end up kind of being evidence of municipal corruption, but that you feel in a very embodied way, and the materiality of the surface then kind of translates that.

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And I thought. Yes, of course this should be. This should be in the universe of surface research, and of course, like pavement surfaces are part of this. I've been having conversations with colleagues from very different disciplines. Who are, you know, the architects who are now working with like growing biophilic surfaces, and

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there is a lot that could feed into this, and then the understandings of what counts as a surface will be very different according to the different disciplines lodges that feel into it.

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So thank you so much for these presentations. I'm Josh. I'm from the University of Queensland, Australia.

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I have a question for Sam Nux, and so

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So for a salmon, Max, you briefly mentioned that some of the steel pieces of Rhode Island was traveling in terms of their exhibited For educational purposes, as I understand it correctly.

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from what your shoulder briefly does

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protected, and they're very in terms of almost like a art exhibition, since they are covered by

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Bloss and students are in their country.

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You're studying it. I'm wondering if you have more

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for the

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I just have to say this, and my question for you is, and I'm I'm very glad to hear about that question about your reflectivity and your position in terms of this. So from what I'm understanding, your work, and the collaboration

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is mostly beyond the like of our scholars.

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so I'm just wondering whether, there's intentional future directions, who involve practitioners in this, and my question is kind of related to this in terms of so wars and services, especially when we see graffiti is can be interpreted.

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simple activism

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rebellious, or whether that cold. So I'm wondering, how do you? I'm wondering about you take in terms of the difference or the commonality between activism, art.

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and how these artistic or activist use of services can differentiate or do they

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to each other?

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I hope that makes sense.

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Thanks for that question. It's interesting because there was a whole protocol about how to transport these pieces of steel when they went all around the United States and the world, and there was some of them that were taken on display and shown, and they did have protection, and they did have a sort of sense of of a museum piece.

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and then On the other hand, you know, we're not talking about a fabric egg here, or a piece of porcelain. It's a piece of steel. So there was this, you know, it's one of the toughest materials and part of the kind of demonstration of this was. Look at this thing that's incredibly strong, and it's melted, it's twisted. And in its very kind of refiguration there's a kind of sense of agony in that.

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So I think actually more common, wasn't exactly protection, but was in a kind of evangelical American tradition to touch it.

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and to have that as a kind of experience of a pseudo-religious experience. And so in in the guidelines for people who are receiving this deal there was transportation. you know, saying you can't do this, Mac, but instead everyone received it almost almost, you know, to 95 of the cases, I would say, like, actually went well off and beyond what they were supposed to do.

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When the piece was taken they would have motorcades, police motorcades, fire brigades taking with their lights sounding. Some of them had held angels taking the pieces and they turned into like a parade, basically to deliver these pieces to the site. So transportation became a big part of it. oftentimes an open flat egg truck where you can saw this thing

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in a way, a very kind of early twentieth nineteenth century way of of transporting a body. And, of course, as my brother said before, There was this this kind of controversy in some sense, where there was the the possibility of having micro remains. And of course, that's something that for the pieces that receive generation. Okay, you might have a micro remains of the humans, the 1,000 people who weren't found, but for the 95% of the steel

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that was taken to India as scrap metal. That's also something that became controversial. And there is a small controversy around the fact for the scrap metal.

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As well.

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Thank you for your questions.

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Yes, this is just colors at this stage. It's just colors. But I'm planning to grow this and ideally make it open. So anyone can you know what are the questions that you would ask of a wall there, someone from the Internet, because I assume the collection would be somewhere online. I haven't. I don't have a very concrete plan for this yet, but ideally, it's and and I see it then also. I see it as a teaching tool.

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but I see it as a practice tool as well, and maybe we're talking about urban protection as practitioners or activists or artists.

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But it should be open. It's not. It's not a scholarly endeavor. Really.

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but at this stage it was still, I think, valuable to me to demonstrate how truly interdisciplinary this study could be, and therefore, oh, look at all these colors from very different disciplines, who could contribute to forming a body of knowledge around urban surfaces?

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And so I'm working on 2 projects right now here in Melbourne. and I'm kind of bypass your question about artists and activists. just to tell you that I'm more interested at the moment in maintenance. So I want to do a project with

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graffiti removal contractors

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and see what their knowledge is of surfaces are. This is not unprecedented. It has been done before.

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But I yeah, I just have a slightly different angle to it. And another project I want to do. And again, for those of you who are familiar with Melbourne for me. I moved here, as I said 4 months ago, and I was quite struck by the outdoor poster culture. And how developed this is, and the other project I'm setting up right now is with the companies that manage these

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kind of ad hoc outdoor postering sites and trying to figure out how these are managed, and and what kinds of urban archives they hold and produce as well. And it was quite. It's quite remarkable, actually, like the other day I was walking, taking photograph my repeat photos of the same poster sites, and I saw birds feed from behind the bolster, and I thought, this.

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This is incredible, because there's this entire ecology. Now that that was created in this surface space that

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didn't previously exist at all.

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I also saw this where they eat the wheat, paste off the back of the poster as a nutritious and delicious supplement to their diet of worms, I guess.

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and

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thank you very much for the supremeizing panel. I also have a lot of questions. So for the first paper, this struck me this idea about overrepresentation of this heroic frame. And this also goes in line very much what I do with Kufitti, because all the artists I interviewed about policies and in the video work they said they would not.

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Many of them said they would not collaborate with the State and with the authorities, because they want this federal representation of doctors.

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war heroes. And whatever it is, so my question is, maybe you have some insight like, why you did so. Maybe because there is funding, you know, some side of the business that you have

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for the second paper. And I was really interested in. Maybe, in short, you could mention what was what were the tools. So maybe theories that you used to analyze your usual materials. And it was it was not really clear for me if you took this photos or these were the photos of the participants that gave you

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Ok. And for the third paper you only mentioned a little bit about archives.

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because what you do goes in line. there is an amazing book that's called Biography of Things, and they use it as a textbook. and they ask students to interrogate objects, but this involves a lot of historical work with archives, and knowing where to come from, and so on. So how do you do that? Is it even possible? Do you use any kind of digital Instagram archive? I don't know.

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And do you research, what is this? Wall? What is this? What is it

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so? It

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yeah. regarding the question about the 9 11 memorialization?

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The process of of remediating the site was done largely, extemporaneously and led by firefighters. It was not, as in most of the countries led by the army corps of engineers, or by a group

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like a unified group. There was a lot of different actors, and the firefighters were there on the ground already, and they also helped to

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remove bodies and material from the site. So the narrative of 9 11 was very much dominated by firefighters from the very beginning, also to the the of

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displeasure of police and other law enforcement, who also saw themselves as there's some vying for who gets to be remembered there, and the fire service really dominate that And in the aftermath the people who were able to receive memorial put on site were often fire companies because they had extra money to do it. They had space to do it, and they had these networks that were able to distribute the call through memorial steel. It's not always the case, I mean, there's other groups, but a lot of them do air on the side of

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for example, like rsl, what would be like an Rsl here? So they air on the side of of the marshall of the wall keepers. Very few other civic groups did receive steel, but some actually are displayed

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more kind of artistic context, like in Sculpture Garden. So that's the small minority.

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I was necessarily quickly. It was. It wasn't. The plan was to distribute it, but to have local control. So there's a diy element where the funds are raised on site and they get to have this design control. So you see, a lot of kind of mom and pop design things. That was someone who was friends with the fire company and made the memorial themselves. so in that sense it does

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get a little bit of pressure off the kind of natural local animus towards the Federal Government which you see in a lot of American cities. To say. Actually, this was done. You know we just got it from the Federal authorities, and it was done locally.

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Hello! thank you for the question. So it by that it it wasn't so clear but The pictures I present that Some of them were photos that we used to call the dissertation interview. They were taken by respondents, others. I took them in the official ethnography.

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so on. Your question on that the theories?

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So what one thing which I wanted to be to do was to just focus on. So, for example, like the posters. So I wanted to look at these slogans that were basically put in the posters, or you can paid by for an area, because I think they're basically important signifiers of what claims organization will be done or trying to make right? And how? Yeah. So I'm send the process of writing the paper. So yeah, but that's one thing which I want to do in the

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so

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thanks for that comment. We should talk more.

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So okay, 2 things. I use repeat photography a lot. And of course, that only offers a a very small slice of what was there but I did this work in London, where I used to live and work in the biggest legal graffiti site in London, which is called Bleak Street. It's a tunnel, and it's

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they go to pain there and then. People pain there so much that you can imagine the accumulation of layers, and I did this work where I visited leaked streets for 100 consecutive days, taking pictures of the same walls.

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And then that kind of shows. The the walls change every day. So that's a bit of a it's like a visual archaeology of that, those particular walls. And there are other people. Susan Hansen, who, for example, who work with it. She calls it longitudinal photo documentation of those, particularly. She uses it with graffiti. But

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there are other people who do this. This is one way. But also I had a student who wrote this brilliant research on Hong Kong because he tried to study. He was from there, and he tried to study political graffiti in Hong Kong, but, as we know, they get removed very quickly, so what he did was to use a Google Street field. And then he had a number of sites that he

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kind of analyzed, and he he almost went in like a detective like a visual detective, to search for clues on these particular sites of buffed

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images, but also the clean walls, and he had particular times, and when he did that. So it is possible, and I think there are interesting ways to do that with contemporary walls and surfaces.

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Thank you for all your interesting presentations

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regarding the in the Philippines. I am very interested in a housing issue, because on the day I busy to say in every. I also encountered prior, that the dozens of houses. what a d quote about the women's organization in is some organization or

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created in 1,974. because I had some of in the latest to live histories all but the Giovanniization before this organization was clear, did by women as a body to negotiate land or ownership in the response to the

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 the detention of married activist and and the Marco's dictatorship. After these women gained the ownership of the land, geo-organization seemed to have largely disbanded, and having lots, it

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having lots, it's common God, I think I I'm unfortunately, it's only a few visual data Now, the question is, how to experience so, but energy also, or people's, or in this positions or social movement can be passed on to the next generation. Can the personal move mentally, Amanda, as a kind of collective memories.

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so how they can pass on their knowledge to

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 I'm not entirely sure about it, but I try So I think one thing that needs to be done is

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 everything.

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yeah. I'm not sure if I have to address that question. But

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 okay, I think 1 one problem that I've noticed is that with at least in my in future, in my involvement with that the organization, or a lot of organizations. don't see me. They find it hard right to be, but to gain like games in their campaign. Right? So you know, it's this focus too much on this too much focus and process and stuff like that.

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So I think it's basically also an issue of

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I guess experience. So sometimes you know, community organizers exactly the kind of experience. You need to engage a state.

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So I guess

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one way they can attract attention or gain fraction, for the company is to just really focus on. Maybe it's engaging the state or really focus on trying to

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gain things for your constituencies. I'm not sure how they can do that, but maybe we can talk about it.

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Yeah.

404
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good morning. I'm Clarence. I'm from the University of San Diego, Mass Philippines, and I'm so happy listening to you. It's my first time to engage ourselves into visual sociology. And so my question is a bit

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imaginative in a way, my questions, because I see walls in the 3 papers, the wall of

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the building, the collapse.

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the houses in the in the of the of the women movement and urban urban world. So, my! My! My my interest is is really knowing. Have you ever took pictures of the walls?

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And and maybe by deriving insights from Sabina, you could make another paper out of it. But I think so. So I just need that confirmation. But as as new to being, you know, using visual sociology in my work. I am quite addressed to Vena. To what extent can we make this

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political? And could we make this? maybe you know the the the wall of the of poverty. For example, coming from my country. I see it that it's urban spaces, but in a country like ours I think we could make a paper out of church walls, for example.

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and also housing wants right?

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And maybe even walls that are imagined like the boundaries that we have a problem with China now, right now. The the wall, the boundary. and the encroachment. Into the waters of the Philippine Sea, right so so. And and there's so many pictures. Maps, for example, are actually

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very pregnant of meanings that I think we could derive from so. So thank you so much for for for this beautiful session. It made me think more about what

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data to you, how how visual data can be used to to make this more political make, probably to to identify the powers there be

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that maybe we could make sense for new policies. Right? Thank you.

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I'll just talk really quickly and say that our

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We didn't speak that much about our methodology, but we received this massive frequ of information request showing all of the pieces of steel. We also had a separately originating list of all the memorials, and then, during one of the long Melbourne Covid lockdowns.

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we went on a bit of a hunt for these pieces by comparing local news stories to Google Maps. So a lot of the images that were shown in that that gift slideshow

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were things that we had to kind of track down, saying, Okay, we know that this piece was placed in X small city, and that's somewhere in the vicinity of the town green, or this shopping mall, or this fire station. And then Google Street View became a really valuable search tool in that. So I think there is a

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there's also probably a way in which we could revisit that using

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both

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imagery of when these were installed, which is about 10 years ago, now, often with feed.

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the tenth anniversary of 9 11. And now I think it might be interesting to see how other things have developed around them. it's not really getting at your idea of walls, but I think that images and this photographic hunt was really at the core of the this project.

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So so just just a brief background of so the community is basically divided into a lot of like parts of that. And each part of the plan is owned by someone family. Right?

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01:23:27.890 --> 01:23:50.809
So 1 one thing I was taking because of for the like, the walls, right or defenses that that basically indicated that these lines were owned by someone to find a wall and test it. It's this big no Trespassing. Right? So yeah, I, I I I I took pictures of that. But yeah, I wasn't able to present it. So that's one thing which I for that it's interesting.

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01:23:50.980 --> 01:24:01.480
and I guess just to share it also in other communities. Typically, you find you know, Aria, such a demolish right. And you would have remnants of walls and what some

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residents would do. So they would be actually in the graffiti right? indicating, I guess, as a resistance to what's going on in their community. So

427
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that's what's happening.

428
01:24:15.020 --> 01:24:32.490
Let's do it. Yes, church walls amazing. I know nothing about that. But this is the point about how this can become, I think, a very useful tool. Have a look at Andrea Brigitte's edited volume on urban walls.

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because a lot of the you know what you said about imagined walls and boundaries, and how they can be used as

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political weapons as well at a bigger scale at a governance scale. That book tackles some of the chapters in that book tackle that very well, but I think so, I think, recognizing the

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01:24:57.830 --> 01:25:12.869
the volumetric, the the thick materiality of the surface already makes every surface political, despite or kind of, irrespective of what you write on it.

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because

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that is new material that the law doesn't know how to deal with. we we because you know, you put up a fence, but the fence has the materiality of its own, and and if someone puts up a notice on that fence, and then someone paints over the notice, and then someone tags it. And you see so in all of this process, that new space which I call the Commons. But maybe some people have different ideas about what it is

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that already politicians, it politicizes space

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because it's not so simple anymore just to say, Oh, this is private property, and keep up. Now this is a new property. But whose is it?

436
01:25:52.240 --> 01:25:53.850
I think it's collective.

437
01:25:53.900 --> 01:26:02.360
But all all of this is political, all of it is there. There is a form of justice written.

438
01:26:03.280 --> 01:26:08.520
produced into surfaces because they are of multiple authorship.

439
01:26:09.140 --> 01:26:19.059
and this is the idea of spatial justice coming from Andreas, philipopoulos, me halopolos, legal scholar, who says spatial justice is the struggle

440
01:26:19.080 --> 01:26:23.199
of multiple bodies to occupy the same space at the same time.

441
01:26:23.370 --> 01:26:25.379
and I think that happens on surfaces.

442
01:26:28.500 --> 01:26:29.350
This is.

443
01:26:34.880 --> 01:26:43.879
thank you very much for your panels, and I'm so excited to hear all of your presentations. And I have basically 3 questions.

444
01:26:43.910 --> 01:27:03.079
And the first one is for Max. So I'm really interested in how they exhibit the remnants of this deal of the of the buildings, and I remember that in your presentation you mentioned that on the first space they said that the steals inside the

445
01:27:03.100 --> 01:27:06.720
in the airport yard, and they could

446
01:27:06.760 --> 01:27:15.720
almost smells and like feel the how the destruction was. And I think it's really interesting that

447
01:27:15.830 --> 01:27:25.750
at the end they chose not to exhibit this deal in the inside the building, but they

448
01:27:25.950 --> 01:27:29.910
kind of cut it off and try to spread all around the country.

449
01:27:30.210 --> 01:27:33.339
So my question is,

450
01:27:33.460 --> 01:27:39.509
 I like to hear your comments about how they how they

451
01:27:39.610 --> 01:27:49.120
chose the way in which They tried to exhibit the remedies, not in a very traditional museum like

452
01:27:49.130 --> 01:27:52.510
style, but more like a

453
01:27:56.150 --> 01:28:05.900
out out air space in all of the like the places which is not directly connected in New York or the national

454
01:28:05.930 --> 01:28:27.340
national narratives. And my second comments and third comment is about the world, and thank you very much for your presentation. And I'm a Phd student and I'm a urban sociologist, and I like to. I really like to research about the urban space in regard to its materiality.

455
01:28:27.340 --> 01:28:37.190
But I always concerned about whenever I'm trying to research the materiality of the urban space. I was told that

456
01:28:37.360 --> 01:28:50.230
I I might be overlooking the socially constructed aspects of the urban space, which mean, I try to emphasize the I

457
01:28:50.310 --> 01:28:56.640
agency of the materiality of the or the building, or the architecture of this space.

458
01:28:56.660 --> 01:29:25.719
there is always concern about the how we cannot neglect in the the social aspect, or the political aspects of the walls. And I like to ask your comments about on that point, and my third comments about. So on come from Japan, and in Japan we really see the kind of political messages or the Philip gravity in urban spaces. And so

459
01:29:25.890 --> 01:29:41.390
so I like to ask you, in different urban context, how we can. How do you think, for example, like the urban space in Tokyo, we can examine the walls or the graffiti of the walls.

460
01:29:41.560 --> 01:29:45.769
like you do in your research project.

461
01:29:52.210 --> 01:30:20.110
Yeah, thanks for that question. and it really gets at the heart of something that they were trying to decide. So they actually decide to have their cake and to eat it too. They have a traditional museum at ground 0. that has some of the biggest pieces of steel in it, and you could argue that that museum got first choice of the most charismatic pieces of steel that are have the biggest ones, the most twisted ones, the kind of the most dramatic ones.

462
01:30:20.110 --> 01:30:37.210
And then they had this steel that was sitting in the airport hangar, which they slowly decide what to do with, and they gave it to local authorities. One thing that they really didn't want to do is that for At the beginning people were some of the the workers who are clearing the site.

463
01:30:37.210 --> 01:30:53.040
We're cutting things into the steel. They're cutting crosses and stars of David. And they sometimes there's like there was some examples at the beginning of the clean up efforts where people were using torches to take pieces of steel with them.

464
01:30:53.040 --> 01:31:13.770
And so the steel already had this kind of like holy fit value. But what they really did not want is talismanic objects that people were selling on the Internet and saying like it, like what happened to the Berlin wall where people were like, Hey, you want to break the Berlin wall. It's 5 goitch marks. And so that was that they did not want that. And so they tried to control the process of distribution

465
01:31:13.770 --> 01:31:32.500
and to limit the supply of steel like quietly getting rid of most of it, and then keeping some of it and and kind of putting it into into different places. so that was a a big choice. But yeah, they do have a traditional museum exhibit. And then they have the smaller outdoor ones as well.

466
01:31:37.290 --> 01:31:40.870
Thank you for your questions. about the

467
01:31:40.940 --> 01:32:04.330
the political aspects of materiality. I would suggest that you read new materialist literature that comes from geography, that that is, that is very useful to think about positionalities and subjectivities, and beyond. I had the similar issue when I started my work with semiotics, because I I wanted to use semiotics. But semiotics is

468
01:32:04.330 --> 01:32:22.130
a completely. You can use it in that way. But my advice to you would be just. If this is something. If you're interested in studying materiality, you must have reasons for doing so. What are your reasons? What do you see there I see evidence of politics.

469
01:32:22.130 --> 01:32:41.940
So then, I am able to adopt the theories that are there that my supervisors could say, Well, that's no good, because it will leave you astray, and you won't be focusing on the social aspects. And you say, Well, actually, I can start from here and kind of include that or read them as evidence.

470
01:32:42.030 --> 01:32:46.229
I haven't been to Japan yet.

471
01:32:46.560 --> 01:33:09.719
To my it's on my mind a lot, particularly because of what you're saying, and this is the issue that we brought up earlier, like, yes, that I'm familiar with the types of urban environments I'm familiar with. I know there is very little graffiti, particularly in the way that we understand as a an individual expressive trace in Western culture. But,

472
01:33:09.770 --> 01:33:16.690
The question is that so what is there? Because there's so much stuff, probably a lot of commercial signage?

473
01:33:16.740 --> 01:33:37.570
and I think, at least from my mental images of Japanese cities. There is a lot of neon right? So this kind of the the glowing lights. that that to paper in itself! What does that tell us? And where does it break down? Everything breaks down somewhere like what happens on the back body.

474
01:33:37.570 --> 01:33:49.230
That's where you have to check, you know. What? What do surfaces look like on the back alley, and then I think there is a whole universe that it the interstices of the city

475
01:33:49.320 --> 01:33:53.679
that can be revealed from there. yeah, you tell me

476
01:33:57.540 --> 01:33:58.600
questions.

477
01:34:02.550 --> 01:34:03.350
So

478
01:34:11.110 --> 01:34:16.480
I'm not a doctor of sociology. I'm a paediatric surgeon, actually.

479
01:34:16.550 --> 01:34:27.689
So I'm in a different field. So my question might not be that pertinent to this society. But I really want to ask a question.

480
01:34:28.350 --> 01:34:33.940
now, I see as a mother I see those walls for me.

481
01:34:34.030 --> 01:34:43.380
You're just making the walls dirty, because at home we want everything to be neat. Okay. Now, as I listen

482
01:34:43.470 --> 01:34:49.109
to the speakers, I found different meanings on the walls.

483
01:34:49.280 --> 01:34:50.720
and

484
01:34:50.930 --> 01:34:58.339
Actually, it is. The people's sentiments are being expressed on the walls

485
01:34:58.450 --> 01:34:59.590
now.

486
01:34:59.610 --> 01:35:08.070
The curfeit is they are being made in limited areas and not everybody can see it.

487
01:35:08.510 --> 01:35:10.500
Okay, so

488
01:35:10.700 --> 01:35:19.349
and as been mentioned by our speakers and the other participants, it's being related to political issues.

489
01:35:19.410 --> 01:35:29.510
Now, since I'm also doing my graduate studies in public administration. I would like also to ask the speakers

490
01:35:29.550 --> 01:35:35.709
those capabilities on those walls. Vikings.

491
01:35:36.080 --> 01:35:40.120
how will it contribute to the intergenerational equity

492
01:35:40.240 --> 01:35:42.979
and helping people rise

493
01:35:43.060 --> 01:35:48.190
based on the chandler's good governance index

494
01:35:49.110 --> 01:35:53.029
for all the speakers. Thank you.

495
01:35:58.870 --> 01:36:02.090
It's my mom.

496
01:36:02.330 --> 01:36:05.019
Thank you all

497
01:36:06.890 --> 01:36:08.210
we like.

498
01:36:10.490 --> 01:36:12.939
we want to go first.

499
01:36:13.320 --> 01:36:16.300
Thank you for that restaurant, mom.

500
01:36:17.330 --> 01:36:19.250
I didn't like to see

501
01:36:20.980 --> 01:36:31.800
one thing I'll say in relation to the question about the specific areas where it's done. I think that's really interesting, because

502
01:36:31.800 --> 01:36:53.550
in the past we wanted to do it's graffiti. You want to actually catch the the someone's eye. You'd have to do it in space that we'd be fighting for against ads against other elements. The city now with social media people can do graffiti on the back of a wall that's on the back of a train switching yard in the back of the city, and that can be kind of circulated in a very

503
01:36:53.550 --> 01:37:05.969
new way. So I think that there's these 2 modes that that walls and screens are talking to each other. And now I'll pass it to the expert who can tell us more about

504
01:37:07.540 --> 01:37:10.029
the on the external.

505
01:37:11.940 --> 01:37:23.430
This, this is brilliant. To have someone in the room who is from a different comes from a different universe of knowledge and practice. And I really really appreciate your questions.

506
01:37:24.040 --> 01:37:26.170
Why do you want to make the walls dirty?

507
01:37:27.160 --> 01:37:37.230
 most people don't. And and the way that most of our urban environments are set up is to keep them clean.

508
01:37:37.880 --> 01:37:50.839
There's quite a well-circulated theory in anthropology which was written in the 60 s. By a woman called Mary Douglas, who said that she she wrote an at a party of dirt.

509
01:37:50.890 --> 01:38:02.679
and she basically was the first one to connect the idea of cleanliness with the idea of order. So what is clean is orderly and therefore clean. Urban environment

510
01:38:02.990 --> 01:38:23.169
means an ordinary and orderly and controlled urban environment. And indeed, that is what most of us aspire to. We want some sense of order which we can then develop through cleaning walls, through neatly controlling what would display.

511
01:38:23.660 --> 01:38:31.990
But it also means that if someone erect a billboard and they pay for it, that's so clean.

512
01:38:32.290 --> 01:38:33.740
nevertheless.

513
01:38:34.280 --> 01:38:40.940
they are messages that then form part of the visual culture of the city. Right?

514
01:38:41.180 --> 01:38:45.370
personally. What I believe is that

515
01:38:46.540 --> 01:38:56.929
the again spatial justice, the the the healthiest set up is when we don't all agree. So the the

516
01:38:56.930 --> 01:39:20.510
Mit Ctl. And most of the resources will be put into clean and deep white walls. You know modernism, architectural modernism generated this. If you read La Corbusia was writing in the 19 twenties, he was saying that it should be enforced by the police that everyone should paint their walls white in Paris, and this would be kind of a sign of civilization and progress. One

517
01:39:20.520 --> 01:39:36.050
 And so to me when I first read that I got shivers down my spine because the fact that he made it a police matter imagined it as a police matter. That was so telling of what happened with the graffiti writers later in the 70 s. And 80 s. In New York.

518
01:39:36.140 --> 01:39:39.239
so we don't all have to agree.

519
01:39:39.330 --> 01:39:51.340
Most resources are being put into keeping walls clean and keeping the city orderly, but it will never be orderly, and it will never be clean, and and of course it's not necessarily a good thing.

520
01:39:52.180 --> 01:39:57.760
but as long as there's tension about this, I think we're in a good place

521
01:39:58.070 --> 01:39:59.320
overall.

522
01:39:59.410 --> 01:40:01.489
yeah, I'll leave it there.

523
01:40:06.610 --> 01:40:08.110
The

524
01:40:10.250 --> 01:40:14.559
okay. There's more minutes. That was a short one.

525
01:40:17.790 --> 01:40:23.649
I've just been thinking as we've been talking about the project in the Philippines, and

526
01:40:23.920 --> 01:40:34.860
you're talking about processes of legitimation or or evidence of legitimation. And I was wondering, isn't. Isn't there always a delegitimation happening at the same time? And I wonder if you

527
01:40:34.960 --> 01:40:36.309
if you could

528
01:40:36.370 --> 01:40:43.169
sort of tease out a little bit about the struggle over legitimation, because I think

529
01:40:43.260 --> 01:40:44.809
you know the

530
01:40:46.050 --> 01:40:49.920
chose not to follow up with a perceptual approach.

531
01:40:50.100 --> 01:41:12.670
but I feel like the dynamic aspect of it. And I mean you can always add the power focus to that. So. I wonder if you could comment on on what you saw as de-legitimation happening at the same time? And if if what you're conceiving as mission drift might actually be part of a tension, or between the didimation and deal of generation.

532
01:41:13.360 --> 01:41:26.630
Thank you so much. I might not have been so clear. But What I wanted to do was to look at how the process by which legitimacy is constructed, and I guess what I wanted to do was about how power place into this process.

533
01:41:26.670 --> 01:41:30.330
So by that, I've been so clear in the presentation. But that's what I wanted to do.

534
01:41:30.510 --> 01:41:40.460
and maybe just to piece out some things. Well, for example, one thing which I wanted to look, in, which one thing which I took into right was the role of I

535
01:41:40.610 --> 01:41:57.519
in the process by which the organization sought to build support in the community. Right? So you saw issue fed tagging going on. So the organization was branded, or members of the organization were branded as affiliates of various organizations.

536
01:41:57.530 --> 01:42:15.199
And I I saw how, how, how, how, how rest, how rest dense it that Perpetu's organization began to like stop attending Zoom Meetings or the not, then radish anymore. The the fear is created. So that is sort of this process going on, this powered in that involving the police.

537
01:42:15.299 --> 01:42:39.309
There's also this, you know, issue of, you know, digital housing. Right? So, for example, the the organization wanted to people. They. They want to engage in diet always with the local government unit. Right but sadly, they were not able to successfully demand for housing, and they can't range it because they don't have the resources to be able to make houses. There's this process of inequality.

538
01:42:39.629 --> 01:42:53.579
And yeah, so that that's so, that's And there's the digitization. You also see these things happening when one thing which I was not able to focus so much on was the issue of like to be the organizers themselves, like leaders of the organization.

539
01:42:53.700 --> 01:42:58.340
having policies which disincentivize participation in the organization.

540
01:42:58.520 --> 01:43:06.940
For example, one thing which I do, which one thing which I looked into was this process by which But when they created this incentive system, basically.

541
01:43:07.059 --> 01:43:12.959
So if you join our organization? essentially, you're going to be prioritized in Thomasine.

542
01:43:13.150 --> 01:43:27.990
Right? So a lot of members join due to this promise. But after a while, and based on the things for involved things weren't happening right? So there's this, you know, I guess power involved where you community organizers can. They can make demands, you can say, do these things.

543
01:43:28.139 --> 01:43:33.620
I like that. So that's basically what I wanted to do. That's the, I guess. And there's the mission drift

544
01:43:33.780 --> 01:43:43.429
right? again, like what I was. What what I wanted to look into was how the relationships that community these organizations form might

545
01:43:43.719 --> 01:43:49.660
negatively affect the campaigns. Their money. So in this case they were organizing around housing.

546
01:43:49.709 --> 01:43:56.329
But you saw the involvement of outside organizations trying to organize them around their own line.

547
01:43:56.379 --> 01:44:03.309
So they wanted them to. They wanted people at the not to organize around wages when the organization was established.

548
01:44:03.450 --> 01:44:16.999
or they were, their their establishment was motivated for the issue of housing. So again, there's this, this power, they now this process in all Korean. You see this. You know, this this dynamic of

549
01:44:18.309 --> 01:44:19.360
yeah.

550
01:44:26.379 --> 01:44:48.670
I'm afraid it's time to to close this session. I would like to thank the fabulous speakers, but also the fabulous audience for other questions. I hope that the people online were able to follow the discussions. I myself had loads of questions to all of you, but I thought, Well, I will do this later than to give the floor to people in the room. Thank you so much for coming, and I hope to see you in the following sessions.