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Hi, colleagues Hi, Hello! Welcome to this R. C. 44. Session on the labor of the Climate change organized by, and Francis Flanagan and Khalid goods. I'm Alan Rosa whisky. I will have the pleasure of turning this session. and I have step before before we start. Of course. I would like to technology. But if you had meeting on the

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in a homeland of the culmination murumjari by Burung people, and we acknowledged their sovereignty and pay our respect to their elders and ancestors.

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and we have a little bit less presenters than initially. But

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as compared to what is in the program. So Thorsten Giron withdrew, and Omar Monkey withdrew. So we'll start with Mangan from the Indian Institute of Technology in Kampur, India,

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and we keep the regime as it is in a program. So 15 min for presentation. But I discuss with Brandon before that we could have now a bit more time for discussion. So right after the presentation, the.

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there is a chance to ask immediate questions.

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and then we have get out discussion at the very end of the session.

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This

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can I just

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thank you.

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A very good evening to you

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so. As we already discuss in a morning session about different perspectives and different, you know, contestation of ideas on just transition already in the morning sessions. So now I would like to take you to a different perspective

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of the like how labor unions in India, how they look at the the process of transition itself!

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So this is our working paper. Along with my advisor and title, as from coal to renewables, a study of the perspectives of Indian Coal Industries Labor Union, where we kind of explore how labor unions in the Indian coal industry sector. Perceive this concept of just transition and energy transition in in general.

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So before. like I go into the details of our paper, I would like to set the context of our study.

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So these are

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the target set at Cop 26 in Glasgow, where India met commitments like cutting down a carbon emissions by 1 billion tons, by 2,030, and achieving the target of net 0 by 2,070, and this second picture, it kind of illustrates the present scenario of India's

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energy sector, where fossil fuels are still dominating, especially coal, which constitutes a little more than 50% of India's net energy mix. So this kind of sets these 2 pictures, this 2 scenario kind of sets, the context of energy transition and the need of energy transition in India. And this also sets the context of our study.

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And I would like to give you a brief overview of how coal industry in India is.

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So now, first, like we can look at like coal industry, India in India from in terms of dependency. First is the economic dependency. Economic dependency is in the in terms of revenues of the State and a federal structure, Federal government and the livelihoods, livelihoods of millions of people who are directly and indirectly dependent upon the coal industry.

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and, second, in terms of energy security, where coal is still Very inevitable. For the energy security of the country like India, which is one of the fastest growing economy in the world.

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and also third in in terms of social identity. Though coal industry is part of a social cultural identity among the Indian workers, it is not as strong as we have in the coal communities in the West or in the global note, because it is the precarious conditions of this large section of population which make their lives revolve around these

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coal mines and mining industry, and there is no other option for alternative livelihood. So this makes them very so, so attached to the industry.

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and for in terms of public infrastructure.

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Coal industries are one of the major reasons of infrastructure development in the coal-dependent reasons in India, especially in the states of jargon, Chattisgar, Orisa, and other parts of India where coal mines are located

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in because of their Csr projects of this coal industries. the They build hospitals, cools, and routes. well, like they kind of try to develop this this infrastructure just because of the mining you know.

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activities there. And if we look at important actors who are involved in the coal industry in India

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State, the State. government! management and workers. Unions are the ones who take a measured decision in the

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coal industry sector. But as the focus on my study, I look into unions, why they are important, because, historically, the labor movement or unionism has a strong presence in coal industry in India, and they are also the legitimate breeds between workers and a company through a bipartite forum. So a coal industry unions are always

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consultant, consulted by the management and the State when it comes to any kind of policy decision process which talks about, which addresses the workers or co-workers.

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So, and also coal industry is one of the most unionized sectors in India. It has a strong presence of 5 major central labor unions who are politically and ideologically diverse. So they have a strong presence at all levels which is like national state and a company level.

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And if we look at the policy process of just transition in India, unions are imperative to the process. They have a strong collective bargaining power of the workers. For the workers. They have a close association with the workers. They are the only legitimate voices to mobilize workers, especially in a coal industry.

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And this is the brief overview of the call industry in India and we move on to the objectives of the study. I in this paper we kind of try to explore. What does just transition mean for the cold unions in India, and what a very strategies Union have to ensure justice for workers while facilitating an an effective, effective planning for the transition.

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And, third, what kind of opinions do they have about the new renewable energy sectors.

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methodologically, we have conducted semi-structure interviews with 25 Union representatives from 5 major labor unions which are politically diverse and using snobble sampling method. And this out of 5 labor unions which have a strong presence in the coal sector, I would

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labor unions of the present like

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which has a political affiliation to the prison ruling Government, which is Bzp. And A. I, Tuc and Citu, Center of Indian Trade Unions in Mazdur-sava Indian National Trade Union Congress. They all have the all are politically so diverse, left, right and center.

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And I move on to like

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and like through our analysis. We kind of derive 4 measure themes

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These are the themes like their what are their percept? What are their perspectives on climate change and energy transition in general and just transition, learnable, renewable, and an upcoming, renewable energy sector. And what is there any prospect of labor environmentalism among the Indian unions. So regarding the perspective of climate change and energy transition.

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all of the respondents we have studied. They all have recognized that you

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climate change is happening and its impacts are, you know, it's the scale of the impact. Its impacts are happening right especially in the global South. And

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but they also have a question that climate change is happening, and energy transition is imperative. In order to, you know, address, the climate change issues. Then what about the energy security of the country, they have no question, they have no answer easy answer to these, but most of the people have expressed their apprehensions and concern about what will we do with the and the the kind of growing economy in our country?

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And they also ask the question of what will be the? Because coal dependent reasons in India are very mono industrial kind of situation, where there is no other alternative livelihood of this millions of people who are directly and indirectly dependent upon days, and then their lives are evolved around this this company or this industry, and then they also ask this question, if not cold, and what

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then? What will be the alternative source of energy?

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And then, talking about the just transition? They have a contested view on just transition, as per their political ideology. People unions who are a little bit more affiliated or more inclined towards the right wing. politics in India they have this idea that whatever government is bringing in it's good for the workers, and it's good for the people. But there's a strong, suspicious opinion about the concept itself.

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Yeah. Today, morning in morning session, there was some. Someone was raising a question whether, if we can do away with the concept of just transition, so they think that most of the like, especially the left leaning unions. They all think that it is a Western concept. It is a. It is a Western concept imposed on the global South. So

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even if it is a holistic holistic meaning it, it has an inclusiveness in the definition itself. They still think that it's a it is a. It is a concept defined somewhere in the Us. Or in the in the West or by the West. So they all think that we need to. There's a we need to redefine this concept of just transition as per the Indian reality and Indian context.

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So when I ask, then what will be the definition of just transition? So as the discussion around and debate around just transition is quite at a very nation stage at the very. It's just started to begin. So they have no answer for now, but they all, most of them left, right, and center. They all feel that there's a strong need to redefine the concept. And they all have this strong, suspicious sense of imposition on the global South.

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And the old thing that there should be an institutionalized dialogue among the stakeholders, for in I mean all the stakeholders, including unions for an effective, just transition just transition plan, so that each stakeholders will have a well defined roles, and then they will be able to address the various issues of workers and the dependent communities in the, in the policy, planning, planning process.

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And when we talk about renewable, renewable energy, what are their their perspective on our upcoming new, renewable energy sector? There's a differences in opinion in India. Most of the renewable energy sectors are coming in a private like private sector, so they all think that energy accessibility to the energy will be expensive. Energy will not be affordable

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if private companies are leading this this transition, so they think that public sector undertakings or the government public sector should lead this transition and should lead this renewable energy sector.

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and they all feel that in order to transition into from goal to renewables there should be, and there is an immediate need of diversification of local economy. in the coal dependent sector, as I as I just mentioned, that it's a mono-industrial kind of setup. So we need to bring in more and more diversification plan. More and more alternative. We have to create more and more alternative livelihoods.

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And Since Like this renewable energy sectors are leading by private private sectors or corporate sectors, they have a strong apprehension around whether this Unionism will will have a strong presence in the other side of the energy sector as they have out. We have right here in in coal sector.

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whether they will be allowed to form unions or organize workers in a renewable renewable energy sector and if I look at from their labor environmentalism kind of point of view where unions have an environmental policy.

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I think there's a parallel movements going on in that. There's an environment, please, and there's a unions they have very less or no interaction at all. so unions have no idea about what kind of environment and policy should should they adopt like, and there is no question of. It's only Job. There is no question of zoom versus environment

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they have no idea about. They know. And there's a climate change is happening is going to. You know, energy transition is going to happen. They they all already foresee these this upcoming change. But they have no aware of, or they they have less awareness regarding, how should we? How should they plan to be in the system, and to address and the the issues of the workers.

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Yeah.

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I will try to wrap up So as for our findings, we try to conclude that so there is an need of consultation of unions through various institutional mechanisms already bypassed. Forum is there in coal industry. But, however, it should also be addressed more strongly, and presence of unions is should be.

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considered more seriously by the coal industry as well. unions can be a measure facilitator for the transition given, their roles are defined and voices are heard the more and more marginalization of unions the the because of the more and more marginalization of the unions. They are, still they are feeling that sense of alienation, so they should be involved so that they they will not be the. They can also be the edge of chains

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by addressing our ensuring justice for the workers and the present collective bargaining strategies.

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Which has been utilized by coal industry unions for such a long time, it needs to be revisited, because it is, they are so much attached to the management. When the management decides. If they don't want it, they resist. So this this transition is a gradual process, and it is going to take a very long time. So

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these something happen, and then resistance, this collective bargaining strategy is not going to work, so unions have to seriously go back to how they are going to assert their collective bargaining strategies in this long term, gradual process of change. So that's it from my side. thank you so much.

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and I'll be very happy to hear your commands and feedbacks.

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Yes, So, as I said at the beginning of the session, thank you very much. No, no. We have time now for 2, 3 questions like immediate questions after the presentation. And then we can move to the next presentation at the end, we have the discussion.

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So any questions values and also from online, because we have, I think, 2 people online.

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And she has 2 people online. So if you have questions, I will say it or write to the chat, and I will read them.

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Yeah, so

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thanks so much for that insightful presentation. I was really interested in your comment that the kind of social identity of co-workers was not as strong as as miners in the West. And I wonder if you could elaborate on that?

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All right. So like. The identity of coal workers, the generations like. Oh, my grandfather was working in a coal industry. My father also worked, and I

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also have this belonging to the coal sector.

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It's not as strong as we have in places like in the Us. Or in German cold among the German cold communities, because

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for for Indian coal industry it is like, when we ask, Do you want your children to work? you know, in the coal industry they really don't want to do it because they want their children to move away from that, because it is the like. It is the

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they have no other options, so they have to work there so that social cultural identity, even if it is a means of their livelihood that identity is not there. The sense of belonging means is not there. The moment they are given an option they will definitely move away.

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So that's what I meant.

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Elias König (he/him):  Can you hear me?

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How

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so

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and I ask.

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Elias König (he/him): yeah, we we can hear you. We can. Yeah, perfect. thank you so much for the presentation. I just wanted to ask if you could elaborate on the different unions. you said, like a lot of them, have political affiliations with the Bjp. With Congress. Communist Party.

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Elias König (he/him): Are there were there any differences between

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Elias König (he/him): the their positions? Or would you say that the answers that you observed are.

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Elias König (he/him): you know, pretty similar across these unions?

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Oh, yeah, definitely.

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Yeah. Hi stone. Yeah.

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Thank you for your presentation. My name is Tunnel. I'm a Phd student and sociology. Johns Hopkins.

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I I was thinking when you were talking, that you know of.

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Oh.

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you know that unions think of environmental issues. And this idea of transition as a Western thing.

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I mean again, like that position has been there. Not just yeah. Unions, but nation states also true. True. So I'm just wondering, like, I'm trying to get a sense of your position based on your analysis? A way does their understanding about these things come from like, have they have a interactions, you know, with some bureaucrats like, you know, some sort of delegates.

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B.

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also to get a sense of your position, because it can be both that you know the

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we need it. Just transition. The crisis is here. but also it is unjust in the sense that I do. Things can be true at the same time. True, right? So I'm just trying to get a sense of you know what you think is happening here because I don't think you were saying, but it sounded like, you know, that they don't care about environment or they don't know about me.

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So I'm just trying to get a better sense of what you do.

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First, I would like to answer the previous question, and then come to you. yeah, like, with all the diverse political affiliations. All this union in coal industry or in India in general. they all have a different this, a more or less similar working pattern.

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however, their position and their stand on certain things

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depends quite a lot on which side of the political spectrum they fall into. So Let's say Like Bharati maz dur sung, which is, have a strong affiliation to the current political regime.

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They all believe that privatization should happen. Private companies, like private players should enter the, you know industry, so that only it is not only the Government who will provide alternative solutions and jobs like that, but it is also the private players who are which are needed, but at the same time, when like unions like c it you, which is a have a very strong left political ideology.

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They all believe that

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already coal industry in in coal industry in India, already privatization and outsourcing is still happening. And then it's very difficult to organize and unionize or address the issues of the workers. This contractual workers, the so-called informal workers. So they think that. What if all the private companies come into play, then it will be very difficult to address the issues of the workers in industry.

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which are already very 30 in that sense. So yeah, that's how it works. But the more or less.

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they are all like walking up. These unions are more or less same

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how Union works is same like there is a national union, and then at the subnational. But it's a federations of unions and also at the ground level. It is a firm level to company unions.

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and coming to your point. Thank you so much for the question.

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I forgot you. Just can you please repeat it just briefly.

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yeah, you can. Just

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yeah. No. I was thinking, that. You know this, what you when you were talking about unions on the left in particular, and the understanding that you know this whole agenda is being pushed from the West, you know. Not really. And it's going to be unfair. We need jobs. So I wanted to get a sense at first. Where is this understanding being informed?

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You know, what I'm saying is, yeah, this very, oh, okay, ideological position. But I'm saying like, are they also having real actions with, like, you know, government officials? But most importantly, my second part of the question is that?

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What do you think? Because it's also this transition is important, like, you know, there is climate crisis. But what do you think going on? Because

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at the same time, this transition can be unfair. People getting this job right? So I'm just trying to get a sense like, How do you see it.

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 especially like, as I already mentioned, the the this course around just transition is, is at a very primary level. Only a few think tanks and and some academic institutions are producing this knowledge, especially with the unions kind of thing. So like the kind of whatever the limited amount of knowledge and the interaction union has

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so unions still have a very, they have a different issue overall issue to address, not like climate, and like that. So some. So this this concept of just transition and their understanding of just transition is because of those limited you know, interactions with the policy makers think tanks and like and the academic

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work. But I think we also have to like as a researcher in this field. We also have to get, you know, bring along this union as frequent as possible wherever it is possible to to build a very strong and and like, in order to make them form a very strong opinion about this, whether to raise or to to facilitate it is totally up to them as per their conditions, and this as better agenda.

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but we also have to bring in more and more unions into the system, and co-creation of knowledge along with them is very important, and addressing your second question.

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I think

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their understanding of to such things. Kind of. as I said, in order to have a very concrete

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participation in the process itself. There should be a strong engagement with the environment, please, and the Unionist, and I find it very like, it's it's a better line going to get like side side side by side. But there is no interaction happening. So th this interactions are needed so that this job versus environment, even that debate is not even started.

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So it's like just job.

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What will happen to our, you know. in this school communities, if there is no call tomorrow, and then creation, and and and again the renewable energy jobs. sector coal industry are in central and eastern part of India, but renewable jobs and edible sectors are coming into Western and the southern part of India.

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So there will again be a huge migration issue. If it it, it happens so, that will be, and again under a totally different problem, so that so this diversification and everything in order to address all this at every State, it is quite important for unions to engage again with different types of stakeholders.

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And now, as of now, they are facing a huge alienation in this particular. In the last few years. So this should not happen.

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So we have our

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Thank you. Thanks.

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We have our next speaker, which is a Rebecca, appears from Australian National University and the title is segmented Transition Patterns of a life history, history, study of electricity workers and its industrial change. And yeah.

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I will do my best to make it happen.

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probably next presentation.

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And I ask, can you see it as well? And and an online people?

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Yes, we can see it.

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So, thanks.

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Ok, I'm going to start with a familiar confession that the abstract I wrote thought that I would be a little bit more on top of my material than I'm going to be.

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So I'm going to give you some illustrations of a kind of combined life career, history, study. I'm doing of energy workers in

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in Australia.

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I'm going to talk you through some of the initial rationale.

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my button, for

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I was

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no

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state.

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but

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Ok. All right. So the rationale. There's a lot of work

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particularly done by people in this room on energy labor out there, particularly in Australia, some great work on what's going on for primary segments of the coal industry, the direct employees of our coal-fired power plants and

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a mining sector potentially impacted by energy transition lots of great work on how unions are developing strategies in relation to climate and energy policy, the role of their employer associations in figuring labor. In all of this. What workers are thinking about climate change, the social dialogues they're dealing with in regional

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centers, you know. I'm thinking about Sally Weller's work here, and bit of fair brothers. Excellent stuff in both of them. In the Latro Valley.

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 There's also recent calls by Matt Huber, the economic geographer in the the book he has out with versa on climate changes. Class war.

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you know, kind of, with a kind of critique of the professional middle class, politics of climate change and a call for us to engage strategically and genuinely with electricity unions with a bid towards renationalizing that sector.

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And my response to all of this

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is to say, well, we really need some research capacity on. This reminds me of your point, Ian, yesterday.

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and so I've been wanting to eventually get to the point where we can explain the segmented

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patterns and experiences of change for different types of energy workers amidst what is a very difficult transition and and analyse what Jamie Peck calls the social geography of energy labor with that kind of social regulation approach of his.

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the the way I'm doing it is what I learned when I used to work for round Connell doing a kind of industrial sociology of people's labor processes and career trajectories.

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I've got some sampling issues I'll confess to at the end. I think I'll need 60 interviews for it to be a good study. I'm focused in the Lithgow Valley, but also in New South Wales and in Canberra. And I'll explain a little bit more of that shortly. The initial findings really

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unsurprising. So the labor market segmentation in our energy sector has a very distinct class geography.

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and what we often end up talking about is in the negotiated outcomes for direct employers in those industrial valleys and the people around them. we're so the contractors around them.

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We've also got a rise of managerial administrative and sales employment in the cities in this sector

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a long history of subcontracting, potentially an intensifying set of practices around subcontracting. That's keeping labor in this sector

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disciplined but restless

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and particularly with the electrical trades and engineering professionals. My sense, initially from the interviews I've done is that they're circulating across the value chains of fossil fuel and renewable energy capital. And there's a transnationality to this that I'll illustrate. I don't have patterns in terms of career paths, but certainly in the Lithgow Valley that sort of familiar

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kind of Union-regulated family mateship kind of internal labour market of the valley is very visible to me in those discussions. I'm having the white collar work as I'm talking to have a very social, liberal explanation of how they enter them. The the labor force, and the blue collar guys, you know, framing their entry into in terms of class mobility.

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And you know, via Peck and many others in this sort of obviously the State is is structuring. The labor conditions of these people, and I'll and I'll show you some illustrations of that with some headline information, and then illustration of things like the subsidies and and incentives

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behind renewable electricity and the the overall impact of marketization privatization.

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I've been trying to think of what you know, what what parts of the energy industry I'm thinking about. And when I think about our export, our coal industry, obviously, 90% of our coal, 80 odd percent of our gas goes overseas. So I'm interested in these sectors to the extent that they is a minority of those mines that feed into our domestic power sector, and obviously with closed 12 coal-five power plants

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in Australia. And there's more to come. And some. It's already great work on those difficult regional.

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political economic transitions.

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We've also got a really extensive electricity, infrastructure build going on in new regions and rural areas along the eastern seaboard and in the top end that has its own labor dynamic.

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The main sort of anxiety. Here is the the the constraints that labor will place on the pace of the build.

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And of course, the biggest employer in Australia when it comes to solar, is on household rooftops. I think there's something like 303 million rooftops with solar now. So the electrical trades are a big part of this sector.

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I've come out of a regional study of renewable energy zones in the north.

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eastern and central west of New South Wales, and I'm now sort of looking at the Southern table lands in Canberra, because there's lots of energy people work in the sector there. I've got to go to Sydney to understand this sector, and I'm also hanging out in the Central West, particularly the Lisco Valley. So that's where I am right now

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coming back to the To. What we know about the electricity workforce is an adaptation of Lin Chester's work.

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this is a this is a workforce that

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experienced a serious decline when we liberalised and so commercialized and broke up the State electricity commissions in the 90 s. A lot of labor shedding 40% drop in the overall electricity supply workforce between 1,990 and 2,000.

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But then overall that employment was recovered, and and Lynn observes that that seems to be associated with infrastructure investment. And so we can imagine that in terms of the scale of employment, of course, the investment in in renewable energy. Electricity, infrastructure will. We'll see that go up again. And that's certainly what the projections by people like Chris Briggs

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indicate.

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But, importantly, Lynn and David Richardson from the Australia Institute, have taken issue, or at least been observing the recomposition of that labor force in terms of the proportion. That's sort of on the front line, doing the core productive work versus the

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the managers, professionals, and sales workers. And and here we get a kind of story that the professional middle class

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is is a

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almost actually majority part of this workforce. And this is important for us as sociologists wanting to be relevant to trade unions, because our the politics of organising those people across a huge diversity of employers is going to be a big challenge.

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So we've got a kind of majority of managers, professionals, and sales staff in this sector.

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So I'm going to now read you some of my notes that, as I

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indicated, and it half baked still. and just show you what I think is valuable about this method and what we can learn about the energy sector by sitting down and talk to people who aren't necessarily involved in a union or explicit politics. But certainly there's a kind of labor politics politics you can learn about

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from their careers.

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So here's a couple of electricians off the tools.

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The first I want to tell you about is Ben. He just turned 30. He runs a specialist electrician business focused on rooftop solar for its installing domestic and commercial.

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Now it fits.

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He's got 14 employees now with 3 installation teams. He's about to hire a general manager so he can move into the CEO space. and there's a promising staff member about to move into State and start a new wing of the business.

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Ben and his partner just had a second child. He's working 8 to 4 pm. These days with Thursdays off, but that wasn't always the case.

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in his 15 year career history. There's a number of years that he wants to tell me about that where he worked 100 120 h after finishing year 12, Ben sped through an electrical apprenticeship in 3 years and worked long weekends, building a client base in a quick, you know. Dash to start his own business.

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A difficult upbringing is the reason he cites for that. It's a search for independence. He reports a learning process along the way to small business, burn out, comes and goes to get where he is now. He did a lot of reading, attended business advisory courses where he decided the kind of life he wanted

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to carve out. And you can see from that top quote about his experience of those business seminars that he didn't want to be in his 50 s. And 60 s. Still working those 100 h a day like the guys he met there.

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The initial labor conditions he experienced in the trade in his 20 s. Were structured by subcontracting arrangements from of his first employer.

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They do 3 installations a day, no time to talk to the customer. Pretty risky. Just jump in and out lots of uncertainty about the product. Plenty of cowboys in the field, he says, thankfully improved. Improved regulatory standards have put a stock to much of that these days.

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His business integrates sales, and they do one job a day. That's the decision is taken.

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The other electrician I met recently, Dan. He didn't he? He did

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a lot of the same, running around in his early years, subcontracting for sales companies doing 3 jobs a day.

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His path into to trade was through a pre-apprenticeship. After leaving public school at year 11.

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The low wages were frustrating, so we went mining for 7 and 8 years out in W. A. The lifestyle was about being young, travelling in burst between stints in mine camps. The money from the job sets him up for electrical partnership, which makes him.

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which then takes him into commercial solar, and retailing in Southeast Asia. That goes pear-shaped, he comes back. And he's now in a new enterprise, couple of guys doing project development for utility scale solar farms.

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And so being off tools, for for Dan means a different kind of office work compared to then. It's about the relational work of dealing with landholders in rural areas and bundling up the paperwork necessary to get through the State's planning approvals.

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So the products of his labor are literally demanded by regulation, and they're necessary for the capitalisation of the renewable energy assets.  and then we get to the different kinds of managers and knowledge workers.

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dealing with other types of asset risks.

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David's in his 50 s. He's an executive, a renewable energy firm. Much of his work is project development done in-house

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his career route began in Academia. He's got 3 degrees a postdoc. Then he works in a commercially oriented scientific research program. He's from England

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Soon after he migrated he set up a venture that is in now harnessing the research products he spearheaded with startup capital from the State.

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Federal Government! David's main work is also project development now working all over the country, 20 people in his team, the firm's growing with significant capital behind it. After a takeover back in the early 2 thousands, one of the first projects he was part of as a

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partnership with a State-owned Energies company that was responding to Howard Government's mandatory, renewable energy target in fact, that emret was one of the spurs for the venture itself.

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His labor process is the classic managers lot lots of meetings, sometimes tagging along with

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people on projects on the ground and the land managers, and so on. It's strictly development. His. Their firm is divided with separate teams for finance and contracts, construction, asset management and so on.

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You know, it's an involved process in his terms. It's strategic, you know he can. He gets pulled into strategic decisions about certain projects they have on the boil.

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Meanwhile the quote at the bottom, is a different kind of knowledge worker. An economist who works for Jen Taylor now, but before that he was a frustrated public servant, and before that he was a frustrated consultant for one of the Big 4,

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and you know he's he's a young parent, and and we get to the point where he says you should be able to explain your job to a 5 year old, and he says, my job is about making sure that our shareholders preserve value while the industry is going through radical change.

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particularly as a result of new laws and regulations that are undermining the certainty of those investments that we had in the past.

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etc., and so on. And he concludes, so it's about figuring out a way to sustainably set prices and maintain our custom customers, at the same time delivering value to our shareholders, and not sort of falling apart one of the most enjoyable interviews I've ever had, and and it's an indictment on the Big 4 consultancies, you know.

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 And then the other examples which I don't have time to go into, but

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you know, there are on ground, but also helicopter communication staff that are doing the the relational work in in the rural and regional communities that raise concerns in all sorts of directions. You can ask me about that later, when it comes to developing the big wind and solar projects on on rural land. And this is, you know, the sort of stuff of dealing with people, basically legitimizing

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the the the firm that they work for they work with. Usually it's some sort of consortium of of companies.

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So in summary

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you know what I'm aiming for through this project, which you can see is in early stages, is that is, a picture of the energy sector in terms of its highly differentiated class processes.

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And for me, I you know, I'm going to do work in the Lisco Valley to understand the problems for the retrenched workforces in those blue collar industrial valleys like Lithgow.

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But I think it's really important for us on the left, as sociologists who care about this stuff and trade unions to see this part of you know, a shifting class dynamic in this industry.

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and if you know, if we're going to reckon with the impacts and the implications of democratization. Privatization, we need to

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observe and realized. Decarbonisation is deepening those processes.

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It's geographically fragmenting. The labor force

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subcontracting has to be thought through. I really don't know what I'm going to be able to conclude there, but certainly the infrastructure Investment Acts at at State level

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probably push the prices down. Help put the prices down low and put the pressure on labor. And you know, the union's going to really does need a response to this.

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and of course we've got this expanded professional middle class set of professions.

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that. You know the potential members of the future Green Energy Trade unions.

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So where I'm going from here, you can ask me about it, but I'll I'll figure out the regional story, and I'll sort out my sampling for a comparison of renewable energy. electricity workers, and and hopefully, you know, come out with a good-looking empirical project. Thanks for listening

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you

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questions. thank you. So I started a round of questions again. in case someone online wants to ask this right? First on the chat. And I, I will ask people, okay.

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it's safe for you.

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Hi, thank you so much for that. So it was really really interesting.

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just something you mentioned about restlessness.

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restlessness amongst workers as they are. Could you talk a little more to that? Because it's something that I've seen in the construction sector, there's restlessness around career progression that you very easily kind of reach

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a cap in terms of as a blue collar worker in terms of where you can kind of succeed, and a lot of that in turns into getting off the tools as quickly as possible. Yeah. So

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just wondering a little bit more about that.

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Yes, yes.

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Any other questions on the audience.

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Okay.

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that is.

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I think it's working. Okay.

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that's I think you're really exploring some really interesting things. And I,

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you know, the issue of the subcontracting

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 and the figuring of the organizations that have happened. And that's basically interesting.

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And the ways that you're exploring it. But you're also then looking at this sort of non-traditional occupations

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and that relationships

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I mean, I think it is worth thinking about. Are these occupations in

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the industries that you're thinking you're looking at in some degree, we always struggle with that. So I do work in logistics, and you go well, as the Hr person in logistics. Really a logistics person as such, or

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you know, a communications person in higher Ed. Are they a higher at person, or they

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that becomes sort of a complex question.

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The other thing that you've sort of hinted at. There is the ways that they become entrepreneurs

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 and the importance of the resources sector for some of the big good pay and the resources sector that enabled them to then have the capital to become an entrepreneur.

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and how you get teased that out.

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It becomes a sort of interesting space as well. Yes.

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thank you, Tom Barrett, from the University of Western Australia. so my question is sort of you've talked a bit about the rapidly developing and changing nature of the industry itself, and I was just wondering how you're sort of mapping, or any insights from the mapping and charting of the life stories versus where the industry is. When you're asking these people at particular points and the relationship between that sort of

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big structural change that's going on, and the life paths that the workers are going through work is sort of broadly defined, and whether you've sort of blended any insights about those 2 sort of moving parts interacting with each other.

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Okay, let's see how I go.

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I I've already pleaded for help from Braden in terms of some of this sampling stuff. So I'll come back to it.

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 look, I I think it types of the restlessness

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I'm talking about a handful of guys, particularly in the electrical trades. I mean, you understand the picture right? And the

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the way out is is on entrepreneurship. It's it's this.

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the sector

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creates that as a possibility, or you become the guy that's

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in his 50 s. And 60 s. Still in the grind of work. And

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and I think that you're right. I'm actually thinking about a coal miner, a retired coal miner I interviewed who's a plaster of by trade. So his engagement

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in the swing shift. I can't remember which shift he had. Anyway, he married, being a plasterer.

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by day, and

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and and frontline coal mining laborer by night.

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and part of that was the the same sort of thing. He he just couldn't get to the point

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where entrepreneurship

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turned over a good wage for his aspirations. So

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like.

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I think I think I'm not discovering anything particularly new or specific to electricity. Sector work in that sense.

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and the social geography of their work means that they're not getting to, you know. There's not an employer to go and get a better deal with

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 is the Hr person

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for the calm Communications person.

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An electricity sector worker, I mean. They counted in the Abs steps.

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certainly. The Hr guy that was

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talked me through the ins and outs of raising the ground of employment relations in the Lithgow Valley Power stations in the 90 s. Was an employee of pacific power, so

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like. I.

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I think my first in sync is just to say if they're employed by a renewable energy firm or or a a coal fi power plant just because they're in Hr by profession doesn't mean they're not in the sector in the same way that half the

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staff in universities are not academics or researchers or Phd. Scholars, but they absolutely foundational

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to what we do. So. But I get your point like I need to think it through. They have more mobility and and they.

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It's not a kind of energy sector-specific career story for those people that are doing the Hr sort of knowledge or relational work. I think temporality will definitely come into the Lisco Valley work. Because

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I'm not asking people about climate change, right? It's

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 and depending on the age of the people there.

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you know my my theme is industrial change, which is perspective on it. What are your labor? Politics is the implicit inquiry. If they want to talk to me about work, health, and safety, and how frustrated they were by that

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reform in the ninetys. And that's the industrial change that.

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you know gets their jaws, their I. And that's what's important to understand about that person.

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There's another sort of geographic specificity there

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that allows me to be there at the moment, I think, because Will Aero Wang closed in 2,014,

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and you know. Greenspot, the initiative that's trying to look for the

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for the next big thing to plan for.

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What's it called of it? Might mount Piper power station closing in what? 8 years like, there's just there's actually a temporal gap

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where it's okay to be there and talk about this stuff if that makes sense.

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 But it won't feel like that in

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2026 27. So that's not quite an answer to your question. But I'm just sort of open to what forms of historical thinking people bring to bear on these issues right now and

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and then, I think about decarbonization and climate politics and all that stuff afterwards.

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And we have our last presenter.

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But I have to check here in okay. Easy to for a advanced sustainability studies in Bosn, Germany, alias. if you could share your screen now.

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right? We see it. That's that's fine.

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Elias König (he/him): You can see the screen. And you can still hear me.

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Elias König (he/him): Yeah, yeah, we both see. And wonderful. Hi, okay, thank you, Adam. thank you, Narum and Rebecca, for your excellent presentations.

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Elias König (he/him):  I was. I'm a little bit sick. I was initially thinking of also skipping the session, but I'm really happy. I I made it

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much appreciated. And

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Elias König (he/him): but yeah, so so my talk is about climates, tracks. which I think you know, ties in in some ways. Which with which was sad. But it's a bit more.

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Elias König (he/him): but more broad, and I think more from the environmental sides of things, maybe

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Elias König (he/him): because

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Elias König (he/him): I was fascinated with the idea that

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Elias König (he/him): the youth climate, track movement

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Elias König (he/him): would refer to itself as a strike movement, thereby picking up a term. That's, of course, traditionally associated with the labor movement. I mean, they could have called it a

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Elias König (he/him): a boycott for climate, or something like that, but they chose to call it a climate strike, which, if you actually look up.

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Elias König (he/him): you know the movement internal processes was a very deliberate.

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Elias König (he/him): a choice. By the

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Elias König (he/him): by, the people, the the students that initially started this wave of climate strikes and

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Elias König (he/him): Stockholm and 2,019. Of course, we

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Elias König (he/him): all know the you know story of that Tunberg who is a from

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Elias König (he/him): credited with being, you know. the the, the starting, this movement when she started

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Elias König (he/him): skipping school skipping classes. to put pressure on politicians in Sweden leading up to the Swedish election.

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Elias König (he/him): Yeah, more than 4 years ago by now, and it's dot com. Of course there have been instances of

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Elias König (he/him): climate strikes before even school walkouts, for instance, during the

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Elias König (he/him): 2,015

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Elias König (he/him): cops emmered in Paris, but they never really got very big. So

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Elias König (he/him):  The the first thing that that struck me I think, was

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Elias König (he/him): how quickly this movement was able to grow.  Here's a I mean the the timeline of just the first year of the movement. I would say

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Elias König (he/him): so between the the 6 students announcing the the founding of the first Friday's or future group in Stockholm

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Elias König (he/him): and a global climate check that brought together

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Elias König (he/him): 8 million people around the globe. Striking for climate justice was just about a year?

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Elias König (he/him):  and the second, then the the questions that I also ask myself is sort of How did that happen? What? What you know? How how was it able to mobilize so many people? But also where are the limitations? Of course.

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Elias König (he/him): And you know, why was

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Elias König (he/him): the movement, you know? Why did it create certain political outcomes, such as climate, emergency declarations, but

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Elias König (he/him): not other outcomes.

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Elias König (he/him): such as you know, actual, significant emissions, cuts, and so on, and so on.

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Elias König (he/him):  yeah, and that that's the Co contestations that the movement has also been dealing with more recently. Right? Like

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Elias König (he/him): this. this problem that you know, even in the face of

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Elias König (he/him): yeah, the the biggest mass mobilizations around climate justice that we've ever had sort of the emissions to keep rising. And

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Elias König (he/him): and also, of course, the fact that

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Elias König (he/him): you know this first mobilization cycle has been very centered around cities and the global north.

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Elias König (he/him): And you know, it's chunger

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Elias König (he/him): shift towards climate. Justice issues.

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Elias König (he/him):  yeah. So even, Gretch, I admitted that you know from a certain point, they have. you know, achieved a lot. But from another point of view, they have achieved nothing.

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Elias König (he/him): Okay. So

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Elias König (he/him): with regards to these, you know, first questions, you know, how how is the

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Elias König (he/him): movement able to grow so quickly. It was it, you know, just the charisma of Grita Trumber and her great speeches. Of course I think there was a lot more to it. There was a context of

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Elias König (he/him): increasing climate, awareness and post. 2,015. Media is fair, but but also

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Elias König (he/him): just an escalating climate crisis. It was very tangible, especially in 2,018, the year before the climate checks really took off where you had

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Elias König (he/him): a really really hot summer, and and

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Elias König (he/him): that of climate, related events and natural disasters

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Elias König (he/him): in a lot of countries. I think the role of social media can also not be underestimated.

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Elias König (he/him): So the the ability of high school students to communicate and organize globally

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Elias König (he/him): via Facebook, whats up Zoom calls, and so on. So probably not as available to previous generations.

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Elias König (he/him): so it's a really remarkable that even greatest first speech. And Stockholm was already

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Elias König (he/him): given in English and streamed online. So there was this.

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Elias König (he/him): yeah, global outreach from the very first, second, onwards.

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Elias König (he/him):  and then, I think, 2 factors that I I find most interesting, perhaps to investigate. Well, first, and this is the main topic. Here is the climate's track as a strategy. So I'm going to go into that.

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Elias König (he/him): And then also, secondly, I think the various alliances with green capital green businesses, and Ngos

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Elias König (he/him): that are, I think, more ambiguous, but that certainly.

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Elias König (he/him): gave the movement a lot of leverage. to grow very quickly

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Elias König (he/him): so

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Elias König (he/him): Well, as to the the climate strike as we observe it, and I'm going to say later. So in my paper.

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Elias König (he/him):  you know, I I also want to think about what crimes checks could mean right? So Beyond what what we call the clients check now. But the climate checks, as we have observed them so far are mainly school climate strikes.

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Elias König (he/him): and I I call them generational reproductions tracks. Precisely because I think the 2 main factors here are the fact that

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01:01:53.980 --> 01:01:59.919
Elias König (he/him): they, you know, interpolate a very certain generational subject, the youth, or

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Elias König (he/him): we're specifically students. and they are very effective in targeting reproductive social relations. In particular, the school and the family.

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Elias König (he/him):  so unlike with a lot of previous climate movements.

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Elias König (he/him): The climate strike movement didn't appeal to, you know.

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Elias König (he/him): a abstract moral you know, categories. It didn't say, Oh, you have. You should do this in this, because

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Elias König (he/him): you know of some future generation or some people that live very far away from you. They will benefit from that. But it was, you know.

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Elias König (he/him): it was appealing to the interests of a young generation that had come to recognize. Climate action as their own material interest, right? So like.

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Elias König (he/him): you know. If you don't do it, your own future will be in danger. I think that makes it, of course, a lot more effective and and mobilizing that subject.

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Elias König (he/him):  yeah, I'm gonna skip some of the slides just because

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this presentation is initially a 30 min presentation, but I only have 15 min here.

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Elias König (he/him): But I think

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Elias König (he/him): at the heart of What I want to argue is that you know, the client strikes sort of also, then challenge a little bit about how we

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Elias König (he/him): think about strikes, and they're a bit different from, you know, the traditional labor's track. Of course.

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Elias König (he/him): in the sense that you know they're not. They're not merely, you know.

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Elias König (he/him):  labor power withdrawing itself for a certain time to get concessions from capital.

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Elias König (he/him): which would be sort of the, I I guess, very, very simplified model of industrial action.

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Elias König (he/him): but they are, you know.

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Elias König (he/him): intervening in a way and in social reproduction.

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Elias König (he/him): in the sense that

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Elias König (he/him): they for a certain time, you know, students withdraw from school where

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Elias König (he/him): there they, you know, we produce. As you know, the future workforce.

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Elias König (he/him): and, you know, show. Choose to engage in

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Elias König (he/him): yeah other forms of reproduction, or choose to, you know.

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Elias König (he/him): more autonomously spent their time on earth care and and politics and community and you know, to some extent you could say actually thereby costs

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Elias König (he/him): quite significant disruptions.

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Elias König (he/him): perhaps even to the to.

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Elias König (he/him): you know, labor, capital cycle, but more indirectly, of course.

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Elias König (he/him): you'd have parents that are worried about their children. you know, if the children.

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Elias König (he/him): perhaps for one day. It's not as significant. But if the children were to and that's always the danger we're to take off

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Elias König (he/him): more time, you know. Parents would maybe also have to.

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Elias König (he/him): you know.

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Elias König (he/him): is and be unable to go to their jobs. You could see this during the Covid pandemic, with like more long-term school closures. That was, you know, really affected the economy there.

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Elias König (he/him): Several studies about that.

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Elias König (he/him): and it also, of course, forces, you know, family members to engage with their.

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Elias König (he/him): you know, children's plights, and that and that way it also carries this conflict right into the family. So the the parents have to argue with their kids about whether they're allowed to go attend a climate's track.

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Elias König (he/him): You know, they have to maybe justify themselves. Why, they're not doing more about the climate crisis, and so on, and so on. And so, even if you have a climate strike with 100,000 participants, you have, like several 100,000 family members, probably that have to

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Elias König (he/him): think about these issues.

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Elias König (he/him):  so in that sense, I would say, like, this makes the climate strike quite

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Elias König (he/him): a unique form, and I think it counts

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01:05:52.510 --> 01:05:54.939
Elias König (he/him): for some of it's a success. I mean it.

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01:05:54.950 --> 01:05:57.179
Elias König (he/him): It's it's certainly a

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01:05:57.410 --> 01:06:01.580
Elias König (he/him): puts a certain amount of pressure on politics that perhaps other forms of

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01:06:02.050 --> 01:06:06.040
Elias König (he/him): you know, climate organizing previously have been unable to do

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01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:10.730
Elias König (he/him):  But it also, of course,

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Elias König (he/him): has certain limitations in the sense that.

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01:06:13.870 --> 01:06:26.490
Elias König (he/him): yeah, unlike productions tracks. And we've talked about this today, of course, and the other presentations, it's it's unable to, you know, actually interfere with the fossil economy. So even on a

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01:06:26.560 --> 01:06:28.900
Elias König (he/him): really large climate, strike day.

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01:06:29.370 --> 01:06:32.460
Elias König (he/him): with, you know, millions of people out in the streets.

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01:06:32.770 --> 01:06:48.539
Elias König (he/him):  There the, the the fossil fuel industry can still operate, and, you know, sort of the processes of capital accumulation are not directly affected, especially if there are also no additional blockades or circulations.

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Elias König (he/him): And so

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01:06:50.280 --> 01:07:01.129
Elias König (he/him): I think Susan Ferguson's theorizations from the social about the social reproductions tracker really helpful here that she highlights sort of the different ways in which

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Elias König (he/him): reproductions, tracks, and productions, tracks

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01:07:04.030 --> 01:07:09.839
Elias König (he/him): can work, and the different focuses. They have the different strengths and weaknesses.

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Elias König (he/him): and she also concludes that you know the most effective kind of movement building is actually across sectors. Because then you can, you know, leverage, the

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01:07:19.900 --> 01:07:24.549
Elias König (he/him): the strength of reproductions, struggles that are often, you know, more flexible.

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Elias König (he/him): And and and have, you know, a lot of

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Elias König (he/him): can achieve a lot of discursive symbolic concessions, because they're often, you know.

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Elias König (he/him): very agreeable, I mean, with the climate's track. Even a lot of politicians, you know, joined the climates track, and they were supportive of it.

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01:07:41.310 --> 01:07:44.020
Elias König (he/him): But also you can actually

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01:07:44.380 --> 01:07:46.610
Elias König (he/him): you know, you can actually

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Elias König (he/him): be more effective in in achieving political and economic concessions from the ruling class.

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Elias König (he/him):  so I mean. this is why I in my paper. And in the second part, I'm I'm thinking a lot more about. You know

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Elias König (he/him): how we could frame the the climate strike as as a strike against fossil capital. and sort of encourage

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Elias König (he/him): alliances between.

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Elias König (he/him): You know, the the schools track movement, the climate movement, but also other movements that have this track as a form of action, such as the labor movement, but also the feminist movement. Of course.

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Elias König (he/him): with the feminist tracks. And and you know other movements that that

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Elias König (he/him): migrants tracks, and so on, that that have the strike, you know. Same word, often different different practice as as a central form of action.

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Elias König (he/him):  so, yeah, these are, I mean, a little bit of the the literature that I was working with.

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Elias König (he/him): just very briefly about the role of capital. Because I think that's a very interesting one with the climate tracks. Of course

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Elias König (he/him): the climate strikes as they existed now they they were mainly not representing the the general subject that I outlined previously. It wasn't young people. It was more specifically often young people from

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01:09:03.770 --> 01:09:08.569
Elias König (he/him): the metropolis, from with a certain class position. I think something that

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Elias König (he/him): been apparent with the movement which

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Elias König (he/him): actually, you know, made the move from quite vulnerable to to a different sort of connection. You can see that I've drawn a line here between, you know, capital and and this track, because with the climate change that we observed in the past years, you could actually observe that you know some green businesses shut down their business to allow their workers to

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01:09:34.240 --> 01:09:37.520
Elias König (he/him): participate in a climate check. Or you know, a lot of

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01:09:38.100 --> 01:09:45.259
Elias König (he/him): you know, more green businesses were encouraging their workers to participants participate in a climate strike

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01:09:45.370 --> 01:09:51.169
Elias König (he/him): You could see the same with Ngos that were very supportive in the beginning of the climate strike movement.

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01:09:51.380 --> 01:09:57.180
Elias König (he/him): and you know the organized green bourgeoise. So you know, green parties, liberal parties.

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01:09:57.420 --> 01:10:09.010
Elias König (he/him):  I think this this, you know, on the one hand, can account why the movement had such, you know, big resources in the beginning, and and was able to get so much media representation, and so on, but it also

439
01:10:09.050 --> 01:10:11.330
Elias König (he/him): because significantly affected

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01:10:11.470 --> 01:10:16.180
Elias König (he/him): the the program of the movement, and it made it very corruptible. So

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Elias König (he/him): actually, in a lot of countries. The most

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01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:27.710
Elias König (he/him): feasible or tangible outcome of these climate strikes so far has been the electoral success of of green parties, or, I think, in the case of Australia. The

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01:10:27.970 --> 01:10:34.450
Elias König (he/him): the teal candidates in the last election, right? So not necessarily a climate, justice.

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01:10:34.490 --> 01:10:40.299
Elias König (he/him): perspective that in the end ended up, you know, taking the political energy, but but more of a.

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01:10:40.490 --> 01:10:48.239
Elias König (he/him): you know, green ecological modernization kind of program.  And so I think

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Elias König (he/him): you know, in the context of these.

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01:10:51.200 --> 01:11:00.380
Elias König (he/him): this conflict between green and grey capital that we often observe climate science tended to bolster the the of green capital

448
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Elias König (he/him): per, you know, often unintentionally, but often also at the expense of a more radical climate justice program. I'm gonna skip over this

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Elias König (he/him): and come towards the end. So I think what we see now, within the movement.

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Elias König (he/him): is sort of a struggle between, you know. young people, and I interviewed about 20 of them from around the globe. that are.

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01:11:28.030 --> 01:11:31.700
Elias König (he/him): you know. you know, more more in favor of

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01:11:31.970 --> 01:11:37.539
Elias König (he/him): for continuing this. You know these alliances with with Ngos. Political parties, businesses.

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Elias König (he/him): focus on electoral politics focus on the politics of respectability. But they're also, increasingly, you know.

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Elias König (he/him): factions of the movement in different countries that have a more radical politics

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Elias König (he/him): and would favor alliances with other social movements. unions and actors in the global South, such as you know, indigenous and peasant movements.

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Elias König (he/him): And I think you know I am. I'm not going to hide my sympathies for the latter position, because I think it would

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Elias König (he/him): would allow us to to rethink. You know what a what a climate strike

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01:12:14.590 --> 01:12:20.090
Elias König (he/him): that could actually mean And in in light of these contradictions that we've seen so far.

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01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:23.549
Elias König (he/him): and and the lack of of success. And actually.

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01:12:23.750 --> 01:12:28.529
Elias König (he/him): you know, you know, gaining material concessions

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Elias König (he/him): in the class.

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Elias König (he/him):  yeah, that. That's my paper. it's actually out already. So it's it's part of a special issue. with about strikes, with Socialism and Democracy.

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Elias König (he/him): Edited by Joseph Maria Anantas, who also

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Elias König (he/him): had a panel yesterday. So if you're curious about it, feel free to check it out.

465
01:12:58.420 --> 01:13:01.469
Elias König (he/him): probably writing up an even longer version of it. So I'd be

466
01:13:01.820 --> 01:13:05.019
Elias König (he/him): very curious about what you think. And

467
01:13:05.050 --> 01:13:07.299
Elias König (he/him): yeah, really, looking forward to the discussion.

468
01:13:08.860 --> 01:13:13.809
Great. Thank you very much.

469
01:13:17.710 --> 01:13:30.349
So now let's start from sorry. Let's start from the questions directly to this presentation, and when we have general discussion. So if there are questions now to last presentation, please

470
01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:33.760
ask them.

471
01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:41.019
All right. Okay, yeah.

472
01:13:43.640 --> 01:13:51.340
Thanks for the presentation. I guess I perhaps more of a comment. This is, Mike Gillen from University of Western Australia.

473
01:13:51.490 --> 01:13:57.449
I was just thinking, as you spoke, about the action of these students in terms of disrupting

474
01:13:57.700 --> 01:14:00.180
that the sphere of social reproduction

475
01:14:00.700 --> 01:14:12.570
for whatever reason it made me think of this concept of of exit voice, in so far as you know, the idea that in the workplace you could take collective action to deal with a unsatisfactory situation, or you might just quit

476
01:14:12.750 --> 01:14:21.770
right, because I can't deal with that. I'm going to look for a job somewhere else. I'm getting out of this situation. I just wondered. Just make me think about

477
01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:39.049
now this sort of tidal wave of anxiety and depression amongst young people, and also this phenomena in various countries, of giving up, of saying, You know I'm in this environment of very long working hours in school. I'm looking forward to precarious employment in the labour market, and you know what

478
01:14:39.440 --> 01:14:47.299
I'm out of this. So I suppose one response is collective action like this. But another response of of young people might be a kind of fatalistic.

479
01:14:48.040 --> 01:14:55.840
I don't care. I'm giving up. So I just wondered if you could respond to that. Just a second. I would still ask you the other questions.

480
01:14:58.960 --> 01:15:00.890
Okay.

481
01:15:06.750 --> 01:15:24.320
thank you very much, Elias Steven, to to your university. I really like your use of Srt. In your analysis. I think it's there's a lot we can do with it in in this this topic area, but social reproductive theory, as used by Ferguson and Mcnally.

482
01:15:24.610 --> 01:15:40.690
It's very much linked to overall processes of accumulation. And so it's not only about disrupting social reproduction. A climate strike can also be sort of a valve or a release valve

483
01:15:41.050 --> 01:15:44.820
that allows capitalism to addressing

484
01:15:44.850 --> 01:15:47.589
crisis even temporarily.

485
01:15:47.660 --> 01:15:51.960
especially for young people. who are being excluded.

486
01:15:52.310 --> 01:15:57.639
as you say in your analysis about you know the climate protectors versus the

487
01:15:57.740 --> 01:16:05.959
more radical approaches. So I'm just wondering if you can. Is there room to even take that use of? Srt. Further?

488
01:16:07.050 --> 01:16:10.210
Thank you.

489
01:16:18.590 --> 01:16:23.119
Thanks. thanks for a great paper, Elias.

490
01:16:24.560 --> 01:16:38.419
If you've got observations or thoughts on this generation of you know, climate radicals. political work like how they do it and their relationship to environmentalism. And

491
01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:53.699
I just wanted to share with you observations from a a study we did here in Australia, like 2,000 S. We had a kind of upsurge of climate, radicalisms borrowing from the altar globalization movements, tactics of.

492
01:16:54.080 --> 01:16:57.540
you know, blockading, which is actually a seventies thing in the.

493
01:16:57.810 --> 01:17:05.990
you know, many other things. But you know the climate camps, targeting, critical energy, infrastructure, and so on.

494
01:17:06.250 --> 01:17:17.949
And that was definitely about an objection to established environmental Ngos. their kind of technocratic strategy. But then it turned in to.

495
01:17:18.070 --> 01:17:26.610
and you always in. defined, as you know. the youth, climate, coalition. but also a whole range of sort of

496
01:17:26.730 --> 01:17:29.529
regional community type.

497
01:17:29.560 --> 01:17:34.220
Ngos. So it was a different round of professional environmentalism.

498
01:17:34.490 --> 01:17:40.689
But this group is younger and still coming online. So I'm just wondering what your observations are

499
01:17:41.260 --> 01:17:46.909
about this next generation of environmental campaigners? Are they going to look different again?

500
01:17:47.950 --> 01:17:51.610
Are they going to repeat what we know about environmentalism?

501
01:17:53.720 --> 01:17:57.960
okay, I think I can take last one.

502
01:18:00.670 --> 01:18:27.820
Hello! I'm Hans Kristian Stefan from the University of Cabinet, and I wanted to to to ask you what you think about the involvement of the German labor unions in the last climate strikes in Germany, maybe for the others. the the Us. Service Sector Union, Verardi and the union of the railroad workers they called for strike on the climate. Strike there in Germany, and I'm just curious what the

503
01:18:28.310 --> 01:18:37.249
they had some collective bargaining processes ongoing, and I just wanted to know what you think about this involvement of the labor unions and the climate movement.

504
01:18:38.780 --> 01:18:44.530
Thank you very much. so. If you could address those

505
01:18:44.610 --> 01:18:46.940
for a question, sir.

506
01:18:48.490 --> 01:18:52.559
Elias König (he/him): Yeah, thank you all so much.

507
01:18:53.120 --> 01:18:54.160
Elias König (he/him): I mean

508
01:18:54.390 --> 01:19:10.000
Elias König (he/him): there. All 4 really really good questions. I don't know if I if I can do it super briefly, but I will try. Well, I think the the first you know question about sort of this anxiety and resignation feeling.

509
01:19:10.060 --> 01:19:21.810
Elias König (he/him): I think it's a really important one. It's a feeling that, you know. I mean, there's a lot of studies about this. Now. I won't go into that. I think one interesting way that you could think about it actually, in relation to the climate strikes is.

510
01:19:22.300 --> 01:19:29.220
Elias König (he/him): you know, the climate check as the threat of sort of an organized resignation right? And the clients checks that we observed.

511
01:19:29.390 --> 01:19:38.149
Elias König (he/him): you know they were only, you know, usually one day per week. But in some cities and some countries they actually were

512
01:19:38.340 --> 01:19:41.070
Elias König (he/him): sort of they they actually in in

513
01:19:41.160 --> 01:19:48.029
Elias König (he/him): in became, you know, permanent occupations or or strikes.

514
01:19:48.120 --> 01:19:59.870
Elias König (he/him): And I think if that would happen in an organized way, especially in certain global north countries where the labor market and the demographic profile is such that you know, they're

515
01:20:00.030 --> 01:20:03.520
Elias König (he/him): the the younger generation actually has quite a bit of leverage.

516
01:20:03.570 --> 01:20:11.379
Elias König (he/him): then that's that is quite a threat, indirectly right. If a if an entire generation would sort of cop out of the system, or even just

517
01:20:11.490 --> 01:20:19.559
Elias König (he/him): that they might do so, that that that can be perceived as an as a threat. And I think it it was already in, because of the kind of climate strikes

518
01:20:20.230 --> 01:20:23.790
Elias König (he/him):  about the s or T,

519
01:20:24.110 --> 01:20:35.719
Elias König (he/him):  yeah, I I think really, these are really good points. I'm also still a bit skeptical about to what extent you know, the the climate strikes were actually

520
01:20:35.740 --> 01:20:43.249
Elias König (he/him): realistically able to interfere with a capital accumulation. As they existed so far.

521
01:20:43.280 --> 01:20:51.819
Elias König (he/him):  I think again it was more of like a threat that that that was, you know, articulated so far.

522
01:20:52.080 --> 01:21:00.329
Elias König (he/him): But I think one important contribution that Srt. Makes is precisely this ability to distinguish between, you know

523
01:21:00.470 --> 01:21:15.259
Elias König (he/him): Like productive labor in the in the Marxist sense, and, you know, reproductive labor, and I think that distinguishes this approach. It allows us to sort of to distinguish between productions, tracks, and reproductions, tracks

524
01:21:15.410 --> 01:21:20.289
Elias König (he/him): which the other, you know, dominant model doesn't do that. That would be the

525
01:21:20.410 --> 01:21:24.319
Elias König (he/him): the social track which was proposed proposed by heart and Negri.

526
01:21:24.450 --> 01:21:30.000
Elias König (he/him): which sort of just says, you know, all kinds of all kinds of strikes, you know.

527
01:21:30.370 --> 01:21:39.770
Elias König (he/him): Across production and reproduction are an impediment to capitalism and sort of I think you know, I think it makes an important contribution in the sense that

528
01:21:39.820 --> 01:21:52.740
Elias König (he/him): you know these tracks are can also be effective, even if they're not happening in this steam room machine room of fossil capitalism. But I think the impact is different. And so I appreciate that about social reproduction theory. And there's a

529
01:21:52.960 --> 01:21:57.530
Elias König (he/him): sort of great critique there of the concept of the social strike which I also

530
01:21:57.630 --> 01:21:59.549
Elias König (he/him): reproduced in my essay.

531
01:22:00.120 --> 01:22:06.190
Elias König (he/him):  about Australia. I think that's a really really interesting point.

532
01:22:06.270 --> 01:22:08.809
Elias König (he/him): it's actually interesting that the first

533
01:22:09.070 --> 01:22:23.810
Elias König (he/him): big climate strike did not happen in Sweden. But it happened in Australia in 2,019. The movement was actually fairly marginal in Sweden. Still, then, when the first, you know, national strike here in Australia like it brought.

534
01:22:23.890 --> 01:22:38.420
Elias König (he/him): I think, more than 10,000 people to the streets. I found that very interesting when you know, going through the history again. And it turns out this was because there had been these previous mobilizations. by the generation, I think that you mentioned around

535
01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:44.469
Elias König (he/him): the the Adani mine, and so on. And so there was a network of people that knew each other from climate camps

536
01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:46.480
Elias König (he/him): that we're able to

537
01:22:46.580 --> 01:23:01.600
Elias König (he/him): put up this protest very, very quickly. And and I think very last second, as I understand, decided to go with this climate strike framing very successfully.  I think. And then, I think, with the movement. Now we of course, we see a new generation again of

538
01:23:01.790 --> 01:23:10.560
Elias König (he/him): the students that were first mobilized through the climate strikes. And they're now. you know, maybe going through the universities, or or even graduated already, and are.

539
01:23:10.780 --> 01:23:23.350
Elias König (he/him): you know, sort of becoming. And also, you know, professionalized in some ways, and I think there, there are many across countries. There are many biographies of climate trackers that

540
01:23:23.710 --> 01:23:34.849
Elias König (he/him): you know are now sort of entering the Ngo fear also, because I think that's that's just what happens. I I don't know if there's I. I think it's too early to judge whether

541
01:23:35.320 --> 01:23:39.430
Elias König (he/him):  you know, they have a significantly different

542
01:23:39.470 --> 01:23:44.570
Elias König (he/him): a way of doing things than the previous generations. I think

543
01:23:44.700 --> 01:23:46.779
Elias König (he/him): it isn't so far interesting as

544
01:23:46.840 --> 01:23:53.029
Elias König (he/him): I mean, there's a certain feedback loops then, between the Ngos and the climate strike movement that I think has always existed.

545
01:23:53.290 --> 01:24:05.680
Elias König (he/him): People have always met in like Greenpeace offices, they were often funded by Ngos even in the very early stages of the movement, and there was a lot of countries, also complaints that Ngos were sort of taking.

546
01:24:05.830 --> 01:24:09.060
Elias König (he/him): We're influencing the agenda of the climate strike movement.

547
01:24:09.430 --> 01:24:14.450
Elias König (he/him): His meetings in Europe in 2,019, when the the program was discussed, and it was a feeling that.

548
01:24:14.780 --> 01:24:21.889
Elias König (he/him): you know, you know, Ngos were saying to the movement to not post to radical of demands, or often things

549
01:24:22.030 --> 01:24:29.909
Elias König (he/him): that they wouldn't fund actions that are civil disobedience or breaking the law. So I think in that sense there, there is a relationship that

550
01:24:30.550 --> 01:24:36.420
Elias König (he/him): you know can become very unhealthy. But I think there's also a lot of people in the movement that are reflecting these things.

551
01:24:36.820 --> 01:24:42.280
Elias König (he/him): So I think it's too early to draw our conclusions, I guess. But it's a very interesting point to think about.

552
01:24:43.190 --> 01:24:46.109
Elias König (he/him): and the last question was about Germany

553
01:24:46.630 --> 01:24:51.859
Elias König (he/him): which is one of the countries where you've seen, like the the the climate movement making inroads

554
01:24:51.940 --> 01:24:59.180
Elias König (he/him): with labor movements not necessarily in the fossil fuel sector, which would be, of course, much harder, but sort of.

555
01:24:59.290 --> 01:25:03.220
Elias König (he/him): and the transport sector and and the health care sector actually

556
01:25:03.860 --> 01:25:18.449
Elias König (he/him): where you can see these alliances flesh out, I think much more easily. So like transport workers and climate checkers tracking together, for you know, more more funding for public transportation

557
01:25:18.540 --> 01:25:21.670
Elias König (he/him): which is actually interesting, because in Germany this is.

558
01:25:21.990 --> 01:25:36.440
Elias König (he/him): you know, challenge the long-standing consensus that political strikes are forbidden in Germany. and sort of it has created quite some backlash because people have tried to frame it as a political strike.

559
01:25:36.670 --> 01:25:44.100
Elias König (he/him): and so there's the hope that this would maybe lead also to a new debate about political strikes in Germany, because.

560
01:25:44.360 --> 01:25:55.100
Elias König (he/him): you know, one of the things that I think has helped the labor movement back in Germany comparison to France and other European countries where political strikes are not criminalized as the this criminalization of

561
01:25:55.460 --> 01:26:04.960
Elias König (he/him): political strikes. But I just want to say that this is not the only country where these things are happening. I think it's it's amazing how many of these alliances are forming.

562
01:26:05.200 --> 01:26:17.110
Elias König (he/him): you've had climate trackers striking together with beverage workers in Japan, climate strikers tracking together with delivery workers in in Singapore, you know.

563
01:26:17.220 --> 01:26:26.670
Elias König (he/him): climate check is joining. The farm farmers protest in India. So I think there's a a range of practices that that are emerging that are, I think, very interesting.

564
01:26:27.010 --> 01:26:29.440
Elias König (he/him): to keep an eye on. Yeah.

565
01:26:31.020 --> 01:26:46.540
thank you very much. And I asked, so now, we have still around 20 min. if just you know the the questions or yeah, comments to this session or

566
01:26:47.000 --> 01:26:57.030
this session that in the morning session, which I couldn't attend, unfortunately, but I know. But you said on the same topic. So perhaps we can have the floor for this more general considerations. Yes.

567
01:26:57.180 --> 01:27:01.030
 I know if someone wants to start.

568
01:27:03.270 --> 01:27:08.960
or if there are any questions still to

569
01:27:11.180 --> 01:27:12.670
okay.

570
01:27:13.110 --> 01:27:13.780
this.

571
01:27:19.420 --> 01:27:34.420
Thank you very much, Brad and Ellen. And I've got quick questions, really. And I did. If it's okay, Adam, want to follow up with the first 2 speakers narrowing. I want, if I heard you correctly, you said that it was

572
01:27:35.410 --> 01:27:41.219
in the midst of the Indian coal mining unions in the middle of thinking about climate change.

573
01:27:41.430 --> 01:27:46.449
It was also important for them to rebuild their collective bargaining capacity.

574
01:27:46.660 --> 01:27:57.870
So can you say a bit more about that, and in particular about how and why it connects with climate. And for that my question for you might not be a very good question.

575
01:27:58.360 --> 01:28:02.340
by which I mean, it's a little vague in my head.

576
01:28:02.840 --> 01:28:20.279
and it might be also going beyond what you've talked to your interviewees about so far. But I'm interested in what you think or they think. because you you talk about kind of like histories. So I'm thinking about what you think and what they think about what happens next.

577
01:28:20.580 --> 01:28:23.039
This is this notion of entrepreneurship.

578
01:28:23.460 --> 01:28:24.990
It's a

579
01:28:25.160 --> 01:28:27.760
how did I?

580
01:28:28.430 --> 01:28:32.750
How optimistic are about success, and how realistic

581
01:28:32.980 --> 01:28:44.139
do you think they are in thinking about that. And to be perhaps more specific. One of the things that strikes me actually is thinking about that in the context of the geography of this class work.

582
01:28:45.630 --> 01:28:53.170
especially once wind farms in particular, have been built. The work's going to be really itinerant and short-term, and

583
01:28:53.290 --> 01:28:58.210
to what extent it's going to pan out in the way that they anticipate

584
01:28:58.450 --> 01:29:01.460
how much control I have. The where work is in terms of

585
01:29:01.560 --> 01:29:03.820
what it's like. The family lies

586
01:29:04.530 --> 01:29:07.790
like strikes me as being highly. And I

587
01:29:09.040 --> 01:29:09.830
mentioned.

588
01:29:10.730 --> 01:29:11.980
yes.

589
01:29:13.150 --> 01:29:14.120
yeah.

590
01:29:14.680 --> 01:29:21.380
Ok, thank you very much. Any other comment or question.

591
01:29:23.040 --> 01:29:28.500
 yeah. But

592
01:29:30.890 --> 01:29:36.780
okay. my name is Esther from Indonesia.

593
01:29:36.830 --> 01:29:40.580
My first question for the first presenter.

594
01:29:41.830 --> 01:29:57.460
is there any difference between the condition of the coworker in the small or medium industry with a larger company, because in an industry that was very different. Then also, what is the difference of the demands between the Union

595
01:29:57.740 --> 01:30:02.110
concerned in the small business and the larger company.

596
01:30:02.380 --> 01:30:03.570
Then my second.

597
01:30:04.310 --> 01:30:05.760
It's about this right

598
01:30:05.890 --> 01:30:15.429
in Indonesia. The worker in the coal industry, or at the industry, tend to be hired to defend the corporation

599
01:30:15.580 --> 01:30:25.570
so they do not get that from the Toka community or from the environmentalis. Then they get extra defense from the

600
01:30:25.730 --> 01:30:34.789
to our that they hire, then how we can organize that kind of work that was higher to defend the corporation itself. Thank you.

601
01:30:35.420 --> 01:30:37.699
Thank you very much.

602
01:30:38.910 --> 01:30:50.510
Okay, that was just the Demetrius who said that he needs to leave. So so it wasn't the question I I take the the chance to ask also my my questions, if possible. So

603
01:30:50.570 --> 01:30:54.179
the question to now is,

604
01:30:54.340 --> 01:31:03.540
it is a more general question. So what is the role of sociology in a laboratory in particular in

605
01:31:03.710 --> 01:31:15.210
of creating the discourse of just transition in the places where it's not really the discourse which is used by unions. So in fact, it's sort of a

606
01:31:16.100 --> 01:31:25.800
question of the public engagement of the sociologists and in interaction with unions. So how do you deal with it also in your research? Because you might

607
01:31:25.830 --> 01:31:35.339
ask questions which are not really the questions which are the top of the agenda of the unions. You create the agenda by your questions as well.

608
01:31:35.340 --> 01:31:58.209
the question to Rebecca. I I I did. I did my So so I I'm I'm biographical, etc., this group in this group. But in general, I I'm doing biographies for the last 20 years. So so I'm very curious about your approach to biographic how to set. So how do you use actually this very rich biographical understanding, the patterns of careers here. So so what is your take on that?

609
01:31:58.400 --> 01:32:06.179
And when, whatever the comment, then the questions will allow us I was.

610
01:32:06.370 --> 01:32:35.700
It's very interesting, but you're But you try to terrorize this notion of strike as it was expanded to other areas of such a life life. So so, as you know, we had to a big movement to. we have big movement in which cost is self women strike. Yes, and of course, it's also in a context of social reproduction theory you can integrate. We we have also papers on that. But I I. That also, you know, to which extent

611
01:32:35.700 --> 01:32:41.390
this is also the matter of creating some kind of new

612
01:32:41.460 --> 01:33:03.360
new discourses around we which basically change the domain of traditionally understood. labor relations. Yeah. So so I know that, for instance, some trade union is in Poland even sympathetic to to climate strike, and human strike would be quite critical of using the word strike

613
01:33:03.360 --> 01:33:12.089
the call this what happens? Yes. So that's because it have more limited vision of what strike is. Yes, thank you.

614
01:33:13.090 --> 01:33:22.299
So let's let's try to answer in the order of presentations. So now that you could start. But, if possible, can you. Can you come to the podium?

615
01:33:25.210 --> 01:33:38.630
 First? I would like to address the question of collective bargaining when I say collective bargaining strategies of Indian labor unions need to be revisited.

616
01:33:39.240 --> 01:33:47.829
What I feel is like the system, the system of this let's say, like energy system in in in India.

617
01:33:47.970 --> 01:34:11.700
when labor unions are very much part of this system. How they kind of assert your voices! It's very much dependent on the management, like when management decide. So there are different. forums. There is a bipartite forum where company and this of Union representatives at different levels.

618
01:34:11.700 --> 01:34:38.440
they kind of meet up and decide and discuss on what should be. Let's say just, for example, they have a high power committee. Wait. So contractual labor is a very lace paid, and the permanent coal regular workers are highly one of the considered to be one of the highly paid workers in the country. So there's a huge pay gap in, even among even among the same categories of worker.

619
01:34:38.440 --> 01:34:44.250
but they kind of decide whether this should be

620
01:34:44.330 --> 01:35:06.979
kind of the kind of solution they come up is like high power committee weights. So this is it. This is a forum institutionalized mechanism. on how this collective bargaining, or this bargaining power is kind of assert by the trade unions in this system. But since this, this just transition is also not just.

621
01:35:06.980 --> 01:35:15.389
it's a social, institutional kind of change which is going to happen in a very gradual process.

622
01:35:15.830 --> 01:35:40.279
Unions have to go back to how they have been doing this collective bargaining strategy for a long time like last resort for them is to go for a strike, and and also if they go on, for if they go for a strike they kind of I would say in that way, like they kind of this unions and the workers, they physically kind of control the assets.

623
01:35:40.280 --> 01:35:56.459
Even there is a company. They work, they they kind of give up their hands and like, we will not work today. Then, entire this coal production process and India will go for like blackout. So so

624
01:35:56.640 --> 01:36:05.329
they have the power so that the but but this try something happen, policy, decision, and some this

625
01:36:05.330 --> 01:36:27.409
like policymakers, Mac, policy and decision has already been taken, and then, if they don't like something and it is affected to workers. Then they go on for strike, or they go for like this conversation or this kind of forum. So I think, in in the process of just transition or just transition planning This

626
01:36:27.470 --> 01:36:50.230
will not work for a long time, because it is a very long, graceful process, so they have to somewhere keep on asserting their significance and their voices at every stage of planning and a decision making process. So that's what I mean by revisiting of the collective bargaining strategy, traditional form of collective log instance.

627
01:36:50.870 --> 01:36:51.950
And

628
01:36:51.960 --> 01:37:08.989
the relevance of your question on Ali. Go back to her the relevance of like this kind of study in the labor sociology I feel like in in in Indian context or Indian labor unions

629
01:37:09.300 --> 01:37:25.140
especially in the sociological kind of study. Indian labor unions have been studied from the perspective of either from the labor, economics, perspective, or labor movement's perspective. But in order to

630
01:37:25.650 --> 01:37:39.940
bring this kind of study into the just transition. This course we also have to bring in from an environmental sociology perspective, where we kind of this.

631
01:37:39.940 --> 01:37:57.949
look at how unionism, environmentalism. They kind of, where do they have contestation? And where do they kind of interact? And so that's I feel that's how they, this course of just transition in India, especially from the Union labor unions. Kind of

632
01:37:58.600 --> 01:38:01.129
paradigm it it it can be built.

633
01:38:01.570 --> 01:38:11.100
Yeah. And then could you please repeat your question again. It was very slow, so I couldn't hear it properly. I'm so sorry for that.

634
01:38:13.940 --> 01:38:16.060
The first one.

635
01:38:17.200 --> 01:38:19.300
My question is about the

636
01:38:19.420 --> 01:38:23.430
the corporation conditions, I think, in Indonesia

637
01:38:24.320 --> 01:38:25.690
a communicate decision.

638
01:38:25.930 --> 01:38:38.429
Is there any difference between the condition of the co-worker in the small or medium industry than the large company, and then which one has bigger working issues? And is the union between those industries difference, including the opinions?

639
01:38:38.660 --> 01:38:53.969
Because in a measure the conditions were very different. You are asking about the differences in the conditions of worker in the Lars and Smoke, and a small Indian coal industry

640
01:38:54.060 --> 01:38:59.590
mainly controlled by Coast India, limited and

641
01:38:59.600 --> 01:39:15.129
Ccl, so these are publicly on companies. So more or less, the conditions of worker are similar in that sense everywhere, wherever the coal mines are and the

642
01:39:15.160 --> 01:39:17.029
maybe

643
01:39:17.320 --> 01:39:36.620
conditions like a, especially in terms of payment, like wages. And there are differences. between the permanent regular workers of coal, India, the Company and the contractual workers like those are informal workers.

644
01:39:36.620 --> 01:39:50.249
But This also, that this, the the regular permanent workers, that the size of the regular permanent workers in public sector. They they are also diminishing a year after. So.

645
01:39:50.390 --> 01:39:54.530
yeah, that's the only difference. Otherwise they are more or less the same.

646
01:39:55.960 --> 01:39:57.900
Thank you.

647
01:40:08.950 --> 01:40:11.460
I see. Cube help me already. Braden.

648
01:40:12.290 --> 01:40:17.050
 yeah. So

649
01:40:18.560 --> 01:40:23.699
 I think the question of what's success?

650
01:40:23.830 --> 01:40:28.189
And then like, is it optimistic or realistic is

651
01:40:28.670 --> 01:40:40.689
something that I could drill down to a bit more. So I sort of end each interview, just saying, you know, thanks for the the story, reflecting back, what's the biggest.

652
01:40:40.790 --> 01:40:41.660
what?

653
01:40:42.020 --> 01:40:47.759
What is the most challenging or most significant industrial change you've seen in your time?

654
01:40:48.240 --> 01:40:49.620
Something like that.

655
01:40:49.690 --> 01:40:54.400
 But and sometimes it ends with the question of the future.

656
01:40:54.440 --> 01:40:57.350
But I could more systematically pursue that

657
01:40:57.510 --> 01:41:04.809
thinking about, you know, sort of implicit forms of success. So for the entrepreneurial.

658
01:41:04.910 --> 01:41:10.279
you know. electrical tradesmen

659
01:41:10.540 --> 01:41:15.309
that's about dealing with the regulatory landscape and knowing how that's going to mix.

660
01:41:15.340 --> 01:41:17.270
we household budgets and

661
01:41:17.290 --> 01:41:22.989
tendencies. And and I actually didn't put it up. But there's some great quotes from him about anticipating

662
01:41:23.190 --> 01:41:29.350
how massive change will be and how you got to prepare now. But that's different from.

663
01:41:30.020 --> 01:41:37.089
you know, the people who run the site of the clothes were layering power station.

664
01:41:37.350 --> 01:41:43.189
You know the Borg group that carries basically the weight of trying to find

665
01:41:43.480 --> 01:41:59.419
investment in that valley that will create demand for blue-collar work that broadly matches the skills of the guys who aren't going to work in the coal mines in the next 5 to 1015 years, and and in the power station that will close. And

666
01:41:59.550 --> 01:42:02.519
you know the conversations I've had there about the

667
01:42:02.710 --> 01:42:05.330
temporal contradiction of it all? Because you

668
01:42:05.730 --> 01:42:11.909
you know what the timing and sequencing of closures versus the build, and how do they negotiate with this

669
01:42:12.260 --> 01:42:22.190
with the different levels of government. I understand that Prime Minister and Cabinet's net 0 task Force thinks they might help. And you know that there's just lots of things.

670
01:42:22.639 --> 01:42:28.549
 that I don't fully understand about what success looks like. Certainly, in the sort of

671
01:42:28.700 --> 01:42:37.359
declining working class town of Will Aero Wayne. They, you know, they know that they were hurt by the closure of the power station and related mine, and

672
01:42:37.600 --> 01:42:39.920
and it wasn't handled. Well, and they're not

673
01:42:39.930 --> 01:42:41.410
particularly optimistic.

674
01:42:41.879 --> 01:42:46.680
So there's there's just a question of like, how different people in different segments

675
01:42:47.070 --> 01:42:49.689
of the sector defined success

676
01:42:49.840 --> 01:42:52.210
with the with the wind farms.

677
01:42:53.930 --> 01:43:01.939
 the other work we did with the Australia Institute was interesting, because, you know, we talked to local council people about

678
01:43:02.410 --> 01:43:04.589
the employment side of things.

679
01:43:04.639 --> 01:43:12.819
And you know, the engineer that's come home to. You know, somewhere in the Central West that from the mines

680
01:43:12.850 --> 01:43:22.250
to work in the Wind Farm that only has 12 people working for it, half of them a general electric car for them, the actual owner of the

681
01:43:22.400 --> 01:43:24.570
infrastructure.

682
01:43:24.600 --> 01:43:29.920
That's good, you know. He came back. Wife's there. Kids are in the school. That's success.

683
01:43:30.760 --> 01:43:32.330
you know. There's sort of like

684
01:43:32.760 --> 01:43:41.880
people are sort of happy with all sorts of things. Does that make sense? But they also know that all that Fta employment.

685
01:43:42.240 --> 01:43:57.419
all the Fta employment measures that the green is like circulating are measures of the temporary labor that constructs the big box solar farms and and wind farms, and they know that those like people in those towns know that the backpackers

686
01:43:57.480 --> 01:44:08.099
doing that work are not there to stay. They're happy as long as it doesn't disrupt the related tourism industry or anything else going on. I mean the nearby tourism industry. But

687
01:44:08.540 --> 01:44:19.630
yeah, so. and success is is in the I of a beholder. And maybe that's the said to the role of the sociologists.

688
01:44:19.860 --> 01:44:26.029
I'm definitely not turning out to any rural or regional areas to

689
01:44:26.160 --> 01:44:37.919
wave a flag for the concept of just transition, and the sociology on that literature is pretty much established.  that you know, people in the Hunter Valley, for instance.

690
01:44:38.230 --> 01:44:42.839
think it's a disingenuous term, and they know there's going to be retrenchments.

691
01:44:42.889 --> 01:44:51.749
and they want to talk about that have that fight, so to speak. So you know, for me, as someone who's sort of

692
01:44:52.080 --> 01:44:55.320
come to this via work on knowledge workers

693
01:44:55.900 --> 01:45:00.259
in the Academy mostly, and into you work. I think

694
01:45:00.500 --> 01:45:04.889
that we really need, like the role of the labor sociologist is to

695
01:45:05.610 --> 01:45:19.229
create information that can document document the situations that labor finds itself in, and and the differentiated and contradictory interests people have with realism and accuracy, not just moralism.

696
01:45:19.549 --> 01:45:26.480
And so I'm not quite sure what that means for me. But if we come back to the Lisco Valley

697
01:45:27.950 --> 01:45:35.180
like, you know, if I generate information on the terms of the people that are looking at industrial change.

698
01:45:35.540 --> 01:45:45.039
I think that's more important than turning up and arguing for just transition, and there's no way anyone will talk to me.

699
01:45:45.380 --> 01:45:54.949
That's my language. But and really, what? What's at stake? There is like reckoning with the failure of

700
01:45:55.410 --> 01:45:57.439
you know, the end of manufacturing.

701
01:45:58.370 --> 01:46:05.210
 So yeah, I'm not quite sure what my role is there. But you know I promise some sort of public

702
01:46:05.490 --> 01:46:08.130
report, and and really

703
01:46:08.260 --> 01:46:09.440
taking in

704
01:46:09.650 --> 01:46:14.810
taking to heart Sally Weller's work in the La Trobe in particular. I think it's about

705
01:46:14.830 --> 01:46:26.840
probably standing in an awkward position between the trade union and the other rural civil society institutions that have related concerns about the regional economy.

706
01:46:26.960 --> 01:46:34.290
 yeah. So feeling awkward is another role to the labor sociologist.

707
01:46:34.430 --> 01:46:38.619
I probably don't use biographical methods

708
01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:41.029
as

709
01:46:41.290 --> 01:46:42.820
well as I should.

710
01:46:43.200 --> 01:46:46.820
 And maybe it's a you know. I'm just sort of

711
01:46:47.540 --> 01:47:02.699
it's it's a method that I've done with Raywin on her work on knowledge workers and then some other stuff on gender researchers. And you know, my, I've really only got an hour to an hour and a half, so I

712
01:47:03.190 --> 01:47:08.400
try to make it as much about them. And you know the family.

713
01:47:08.440 --> 01:47:10.850
the profession of the parents.

714
01:47:11.230 --> 01:47:34.679
whatever it is that they need to say to me to get me to understand how how they enter the labor force. And really the bulk of it is sort of figured on the career, and where people will let me. I'll inquire into their personal lives. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So it's not. I think maybe I'm over doing it to call it life history, but it's certainly

715
01:47:34.890 --> 01:47:40.060
 I'm not sort of going straight into industrial stuff.

716
01:47:40.180 --> 01:47:42.489
I want to know who they are, and really that this.

717
01:47:42.640 --> 01:47:48.890
that sort of second half is where I quiz them on their on their labor politics, if you like.

718
01:47:49.230 --> 01:47:53.969
But if you want to talk to me after that, that'd be great.

719
01:47:54.590 --> 01:47:57.549
Okay, as a

720
01:47:57.610 --> 01:48:04.350
last, but not least, we are almost over time. But you have 3, 4 min to address the questions.

721
01:48:05.730 --> 01:48:15.570
Elias König (he/him): Great. Thank you, Adam. There was one question about strikes and colon history and Indonesia. Right? So I think this is also something that probably just

722
01:48:15.740 --> 01:48:23.349
Elias König (he/him): like applies in in many other contexts to it. It's really hard to get people to strike for, you know.

723
01:48:23.380 --> 01:48:28.250
Elias König (he/him): ab abolishing their own jobs, I think almost impossible.

724
01:48:28.360 --> 01:48:44.600
Elias König (he/him):  but I think, you know. And and I think, of course, it'll be much easier for the climate movement to make androads with. You know, teachers, unions nurse unions transport unions, and so on.

725
01:48:44.840 --> 01:48:48.579
Elias König (he/him): But I think even when it comes to the fossil fuel industry, there's something that

726
01:48:48.740 --> 01:49:05.210
Elias König (he/him): the Neil Gutierre is this code, like the unevenness of class truggle. I think so. Not. Every worker has the same positionality right there. There'll be always workers that are more marginalized within the industry that are more affected by the pollution themselves, perhaps because they're from communities

727
01:49:05.470 --> 01:49:08.949
Elias König (he/him): adjacent to the coal mine, or you know, perhaps because

728
01:49:08.990 --> 01:49:19.380
Elias König (he/him): their families are affected in other ways. they're workers that have more to lose like long term contracts that are workers that have less to lose.

729
01:49:19.770 --> 01:49:32.519
Elias König (he/him): and I think there are also different things that you can track for like that would still be, you know, beneficial to a just transition, such as you know, socialization of the industry that would allow for, you know, more economic planning.

730
01:49:32.910 --> 01:49:38.220
Elias König (he/him): you know, for a long-term perspective. and I think also for

731
01:49:38.410 --> 01:49:51.499
Elias König (he/him): you know, for perhaps even you know, switching industries in the long run. I mean, there was, for instance, workers in Brazil, Brazil's

732
01:49:51.620 --> 01:50:00.530
Elias König (he/him): all company petrobras that that wrote a letter and campaign for turning petrobras into solar brass. Right? So I think there are examples of

733
01:50:00.630 --> 01:50:04.680
Elias König (he/him): workers and and the fossil fuel industry and coal oil and gas that, you know.

734
01:50:04.720 --> 01:50:18.309
Elias König (he/him): still can take action in different ways. But of course I'm you know we have to admit it'll be much harder to forge these alliances and cost a lot more efforts than than perhaps with with other workers and

735
01:50:18.810 --> 01:50:22.800
Elias König (he/him): To Adam's question I think that's a very interesting one. I think the

736
01:50:22.930 --> 01:50:28.449
Elias König (he/him): in the ways the feminist strikes in Poland have played out of a very, very interesting

737
01:50:28.460 --> 01:50:42.049
Elias König (he/him): and perhaps to challenge you a bit on the on this idea that you know by extending this strike frame beyond the, you know, very narrow realm of production. We're doing something new. I think I'd like to quote another.

738
01:50:42.170 --> 01:50:47.969
Elias König (he/him):  Polish. Very famous Polish Socialist

739
01:50:48.160 --> 01:50:50.780
Elias König (he/him): named Rosa Luxembourg, who who wrote a

740
01:50:51.000 --> 01:51:09.119
Elias König (he/him): a a very good book and strikes more than 100 years ago, and who already had, you know, an idea of a mass track that I think goes goes beyond that includes, like various peas and reproductive struggles, and so on and so on. I think perhaps we're channeling more. The last 50 years of you know. Strike history where that has happened.

741
01:51:09.240 --> 01:51:16.539
Elias König (he/him): but I think perhaps it's it's actually good to get back to a more broad but also more revolutionary idea of the mass track.

742
01:51:16.710 --> 01:51:45.560
Thank you. Great. Thank you very much. and thank you once again to all presenters and to all of you who might it you late evening here, and thanks Elias for being with us online, and I'm not sure you probably will still there. But they were some people and for for organizations this was very important topic, and good. But we had this session. Thank you, and good evening, or a good day in your case.