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Hello! Welcome to the session, criminalization of struggle for rights, democratic aggression

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and legal mobilization. obviously, before start with, most acknowledged that we are on the traditional and on suited territory of the Kulan people. As in most indigenous traditions around the world, territory land cannot be ceded.

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as we have in the

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Western Liberal Liberal capitalist framework, so it's always good to remind that, and we acknowledged that they were the the keepers of this land for generations, and you has a duty to be for for generations to come.

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We are both the organizers of this session, me, Jean Veloso and my colleague

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Mari Kristin Doha. We're both from the University of Aura, which is situated

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again in unseeded Agon Kane! Territory! In in Canada, my my colleague, Mary Christine, will say, Some words! About the whole design of the at the session. It's the second time organizing similar sessions in World Congress and and Forum of sociology. And the idea is to continue doing the same.

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Thank you so much. So Hello, everybody. Thank you for coming.

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So I just wanted to say a few words about our research team. It's the Observatory on violence, criminalization, and democracy.

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And it is an interdisciplinary team with jurists such as my colleague.

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political science, a professor sociologist, anthropologist. So we work all together to study the different and changing forms of criminalization and repression of the defense of rights in a broad sense, and democracy, as well as to shed light on the practices and discourses and new meanings that human rights defenders bring about. So this is like a double double, you know, goal that we have that we try to to do and to study.

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And our most recent findings from 6 Latin American countries show that it is the conception of democracy itself which is in dispute. Right now social movements are trying to broaden the hegemonic form of democracy, which is right now, namely, trying to exclude social conflict as being something wrong. And so we study the struggles for meaning as a conceptual tool by Laclow and Muff.

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That are taking place, and that explain the amplitude and ferocity in our view of the violence against right defenders and people, demonstrators engaged in different protests. So we also try to highlight the contributions from below conceptual contributions coming from the people who are fighting for

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their rights in Latin America. So sometimes we, we try and we discuss new concepts with all of you. We hope so. It's it's a great pleasure to be here, and of course we are very pleased to welcome 2 colleagues, Professor Rochas and Professor Akulas from Chile and Poland, I believe, correct me, and of course, the other members of the team who will present Ricardo.

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Camidenico Fuvel, a doctoral student at Sioux, Paris, and University of Iraq. So thank you so much for being here. And let's start the discussion.

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We start with the first presentation from the Academy. I feel, and I have multi-color cards to help you keep track of time.

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The Powerpoint. Do you know how to you click here

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the

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this year?

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Maybe you would rather go to the

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to see it better. Is it possible to

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the lights? Are very

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you?

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Thank you, Lloyd, the next.

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and we can

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to disrupt your presentation to take.

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Hmm.

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yes, maybe a okay.  I will say it in

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in Spanish, because I have a lot of things to say, and if I have to translate it from my language, it will be too long.

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So I it is written in in English, so you can follow

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the concept that I I will abort

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the

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hmm

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 And

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and better

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so he to your Beemoki-finamete vammucho mahaja a.

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thank you.

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Yeah.

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 the

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oh, yeah.

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toss and and Rabbi amente. But Awardar is the it of Casos? A the concept of a lingua politica. Look. Significantly.

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The Santiago.

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I I saw a cowbag on a.

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In general they saw nose solo bachelors, you know by pine that tambian he

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 the marriage of the oss

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E. No Ike Karen gayes.

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and to

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e. And

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in.

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if I said, move fossil

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 i well

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dental allengua politica komo actori politico Cinderella noxistian entertainment.

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 the

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Ehlar revolution feminine yessa Lucia, the Javania, and the

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solo that I can connect to a

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mother later

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I have to.

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So we will wait at the end of all the presentations for the questions. Please keep your questions in mind, and it's my pleasure. This is not mine. This is not yours. This is, yeah. Okay.

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just a second.

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So it's my pleasure to present Professor Hugo Rojas Oral from a

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chile. And this

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prospective solutions to what Ricardo just presented.

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Thank you. And then you click over there. You just have to click this one. If you're going to go back to this one. Thank you.

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Hello, everyone! My name is over, Rocas and I teach sociology of law and human rights in Chile.

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I will talk today about reparation for victims of police repression

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in the 2,019 social uprising.

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Okay?

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So I'm pleased to share with you some reflections on 4 issues

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that I'm interested in developing in more depth. The first one is to analyze the acts of state repression and in particular police violence

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that constitute human rights violations during this social explosion

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between October and March, October 2,019, on March 2,020.

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In the second place, I want to explain and analyze how the main state bodies in Chile have dealt with the issue of police violence.

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a third, to reflect on the practical and theoretical development regarding the comprehensive reparation of victims of human rights.

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and lastly, to formulate some proposals and recommendations to repair the damages of the victims of police repression.

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So

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Between 18 October 2,019 and 70, march 2,020.

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 What? That period, those 5 months are called the social explosion.

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In those 5 months, 8,827 people filed complaints of human rights violations.

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including 388 cases of sexual violence, and 460 cases of eye damage from pellets, tear gas canisters, or other blunt objects.

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The National Institute of Human Rights

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filed 3,151 complaints mostly for acts of torture.

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but also to legal action. In 207 cases

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of eye damage. In the first months of the protest

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the Public Public Prosecutor's office investigated 466 State agents, the vast majority of them 92% of them were Carolinos from policemen.

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272 of whom were prosecuted

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as of October 2,022. The public prosecutor's office had reported more than 300 cases pending against caravineros, officers for sexual violence.

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with only one conviction and one in the oral trial stage.

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The 3 years after the outbreak

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18 convictions have been decided by courts and 2 people serving prison sentences

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in terms of prosecution for the commission of Crimes. During the social outburst between October and January 23,000 persons were arrested.

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and pretrial detention was ordered in 1,600 cases. The Government prosecuted

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3,200 citizens for elect offenses committed during protest, including attacks on public order, arson, and attacks on members of the police and armed forces.

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as of March 2,020. The number of persons detained

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during the social unrest was 2,100.

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2 years later.

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29 of them, 29 defendants were still in pret aile detention for crimes committed during the social unrest.

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Now, more than the figures. What I'm interested in sharing with you is that more than 40 reports have been written by different agencies on these issues and at different times

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each of these data needs to be verified.

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I'm validated, and this requires an enormous effort of interinstitutional coordination between the State and civil society, and that's a pending job to do.

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For example, at the moment we do not have an accurate register of the victims of human rights violations during the outbreak.

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What has been the State's response?

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The Subcommittee on Historical Truth of the Human Rights Commission of the Constitutional Convention held more than 280 public hearings during August and September 2021,

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to hear the stories and statements of victims of human rights violations, but not only during the social explosion. but also during the dictatorship and other historical periods of the Republic of Chile.

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It is complex to address these issues in the context of a constituent process. but the material that was collected deserves to be reviewed

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and systematize more comely.

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and the Academy can contribute in this.

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in terms of the Executive the comprehensive eye repair program was created in 19, a program aimed at all users of the public or private health network that seeks to provide comprehensive care, including emergency medical care, surgical resolution of acute trauma, surgical and prosthetic rehabilitation, and medical checkups

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with cross-cutting stages of counseling and social psychological support. However.

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it does not constitute a comprehensive reparation program. As such

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the benefits have been focused on physical rehabilitation.

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It focuses on health benefits and not on reparation measures that are necessary

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psychological health care is limited

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and does not include social, economic, or legal support.

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Nor was it designed with the participation of victims, and it is in Santiago, making access difficult for people in the different regions of a long country.

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In August, the twentieth 22, the Government created the plan for the support and care of victims of eye trauma.

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which improves some of the deficiencies detected in the hero program.

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One of the criticisms of the victims is that the program only pays attention to cases of eye trauma and not to other types of damage.

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On May 2022, a year ago, President Gabriel Borich announced the comprehensive agenda for truth, justice, and reparation for human rights, violations committed in the social explosion.

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Thus the roundtable on integral or comprehensive reparation for victims of human rights violations was created whose members interview victims in the main cities of the country.

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The Executive Secretary Act unit of the Roundtable was expected to make proposals aimed at the recognition and qualification

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of the human rights violations experienced by victims.

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The report of the Secretariat was submitted in April, but it has not yet made public.

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I understand some decisions will be taken this week. In the meantime the Presidency of the Republic has been granting more than 300 pensions of grace

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for the most serious cases of several severely injured persons.

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The third topic I want to talk with you is very briefly, I don't have time to go much in this, but there are a couple of key concepts.

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The notion of victims right to reparation has been consolidated through international treaties, such as the Convention against torture and the judgments of international tribunals, such as the Inter Inter-american Court of Human Rights.

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It has become an important legal principle that reparations to victims should be proportionate to the gravity of the violations, and the harm suffer

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in order to determine who are the victims of the social outburst. It is worth considering. The concept of victim referred

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in the basic principles and guidelines on the right to a remedy and reparation for victims of gross violations of international human Rights law and serious violations of international humanitarian law

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by the UN. In 2,005, this basically says, and I'll read it. Any person who has suffered harm individually or collectively, including physical or mental injury, emotional suffering.

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economic loss, or substantial impairment of his or her fundamental rights through acts or omissions that constitute a gross violation of international human rights law, or a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

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where appropriate and in accordance with domestic law, the term victim should also include the immediate family or dependence of the direct victim, and persons who have suffered harm in intervening to assist

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victims in distress or to prevent victimization.

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Okay, go to the proposals in the rest of the time.

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I want to share some recommendations. The first one is recognition of victims. Reparations programs should consider the importance of restoring victims dignity.

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and treating them with their respect due to all human beings.

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something that has often been taken away

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from them in their experience of violence.

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and which reparations seek to redress. It is important to ensure the participation of victims in the process of formulating reparation measures, and public policies.

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The challenge of reparation policies is not simply to implement them, but to adopt measures that victims perceive as compensatory for the harm cause

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victims want to see, at the very least, that society has tried to make amends.

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It is therefore crucial that victims and civil society take an active role in the design of reparation programs and measures

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in terms of comprehensive reprations

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due to the diverse nature of the harms suffered by victims. Reparation programs and initiatives can take a wide variety of formats.

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Pablo de Greece has suggested that there are 7 main elements that can be used to analyze and evaluate the scope and success of rearation programs. And because of time limitations, I can only emphasize just one idea.

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As you know. reparations can take both a material and a symbolic form.

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I believe they work best when both types are combined.

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Symbolic reparations, such as memorials or official apologies seek to repair the moral harm, cause to victims through official acknowledgment and accountability for human rights abuses, while material reparations seek to financially compensate for the harm cause.

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Another proposal is moving towards systemic preparation.

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It is important to ensure that reparation policies are implemented alongside other elements of transitional justice.

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such as truth, memory, justice, and guarantees of non-repetition. As there is a danger that material reparations will seem empty if they are not accompanied by the pursuit of the other initiatives or elements in transitional justice, theory and practice.

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then I want to propose the creation of a Truth Commission in Chile. There are several questions that should be subject of public debate. What should the State do to know the truth about human rights violations during the social explosion?

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How should we do it? Who should do it?

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Who are the victims of human rights violations? Is justice being done regarding human rights violations? Is it possible to prove these violations, how to move forward?

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What should the State do to repair the victims. What were the damages, what measures and policies, or of reparation should be adopted? Who should determine or qualify who are victims? It seems to me

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that the current government does not have

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an appropriate methodological strategic design to face these tremendous challenges.

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I think that, deciding what the country should do to answer these questions merits Boulder.

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It is my impression that the only way to adequately answer the complex question that I just mentioned requires the creation of a new Commission, a Truth Commission to investigate what happened during the social explosion.

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This work will not succeed if it remains in the executive branch, because it requires the participation, not only of victims, but also of various political and independent sectors. Nor can it be left to the National Institute of Human Rights, because it is a reflection that exceeds the technical professional capacities of the ad agency. And lastly.

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I want to share with you that I had the privilege of sharing all these recommendations with the reparations roundtable last January, at a working meeting. I do not know yet if they have been considered, but it seems to me that an important part of academic work is to try to influence the decision making of the authorities.

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especially in the Field of human rights.

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More than published in this paper. I'm interested in contributing to a painful conversation in our society damage yesterday and today. Thank you

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absolutely.

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That's okay.

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Supposed to be.

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Yes.

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So it's my pleasure to present our next speaker, Camida Nico Favel, who is going to share her findings about Brazil.

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So thank you, Kevin.

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Hi, everyone and thank you for being here.

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I'd also like to thank our panel organizers for bringing us together today to discuss

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stimulating but also quite tragic issues.

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I'm sorry it's not working.

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Okay, thank you.

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So everyday human rights defenders are the targets of violence.

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Using the UN's definition, human rights defenders can be defined as

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individuals or groups who act to promote or protect human rights and fundamental freedoms.

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violence against human rights defenders has increased, and it is a tendency, so it is ever increasing. There was 358 human rights defenders killed in 2,021. So that's an average of about one per day. Latin America remains the most dangerous.

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the region in the world with 70% of all the killings.

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So, despite a framework protecting human rights defenders in Brazil, Brazil ranks. Third in the world regarding killings of human rights defenders

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between 2,019 and 2,022, 1,171 cases of violence have been recorded, among which 169 murders. So other violations include physical aggression, sexual harassment and aggressions, threats and criminalization.

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So who is targeted in Brazil.

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So among the 1,171 cases, the vast majority targeted land territory and environment rights defenders.

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and Brazil's actually ranked number one in the world over the last decade with 342 killings of

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activists of the land, territory and environment rights.

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So 40% of the murders targeted indigenous people. And it's it's good to remember that indigenous people only make 5% of the world population

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and 85% of the killings were in the Amazon

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 But Brazil's also a very, very dangerous place for Lgbtq activists. It represents. It's actually the top posit. So first in the world in terms of killings, 44% of the the Lgbtqi murders are in Brazil.

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So, and this is also an ever-increasing tendency.

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in 2,022. It was one murder every 32 h. And Trans women were particularly targeted.

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So just to give an idea of who these people can be. I'm sure you've heard some of you might have heard of these cases because they were highly publicized

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human rights defender, Mario Franco was so assassinated along with her driver, Anderson Gomez, 5 years ago.

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She was a Brazilian city counselor in Rio, a human rights defender as a black feminist from Mari Favela and an Lgbtq activist.

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There's still no justice, no answers regarding Mary Elli's murder.

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and it's been 5 years.

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So another case is British journalist, Don Phillips. and indigenous rights defender, Bruno Perera, who worked both killed in June 2,022.

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So the crime was likely motivated by per hour's work of denouncing illegal fishing in indigenous territory.

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So in the face of this extreme violence, the State isn't on the human rights defender's side, criminalization is also an issue. Human rights defenders face every day. So criminalization can be defined as a process in which a person is identified as a criminal or a transgressor as a consequence of their work as a human rights defender, or for their their exercise of fundamental freedom.

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with the objective to stop the work carried out by the person or their organization, and or send a message to the public about the limits to the exercise

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of their rights.

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So there are many ways to actually criminalize human rights defenders from unfounded accusations, arbitrary detention and non-aderance to do process, stigmatization of human rights, defenders by government officials or national media, misuse of legislation and employment of ambiguous legislation. So in Brazil we can think of the national security law, the new national security law, ambiguous legal concepts, such as serious threat, incitement, terrorism.

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the state of emergency to restrict the rights to assembly and association or freedom of expression

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and criminalization through the justice system on baseless accusations is a strategy. It's a strategy aimed at breaking up movements and organizations by wearing down defenders and removing them from public sphere, while in jail or preventive detention for years awaiting trial.

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So how can this violence, specifically targeting democratic actors happen within democracy?

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So Brazil is a usual scene of repression and of democratic initiatives. So last military dictatorship was an era where state violence targeted democratic movements. At first the the appearance of democracy democracy was preserved.

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there was weakened Congress and direct elections, and authorized opposition party some tolerance for opposition until 1,968.

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So in 1,968 there was the march of the 100,000. A popular demonstration against dictatorship made evidence strong that that strong Anti-government sentiments were within the population. So following this State violence increased, and there was the fifth institutional act that was adopted and resulted in the suspension of certain rights and of obvious corpus. In the expansion of Presidential power, the the temporary closure of national Congress, and in political purges.

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with no possibility of peaceful opposition. There was a radicalization of the opposition that led to the formation of the Aragua Gerala.

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from 1,968 to 1,974. Violence and repression increased to get rid of political opponents, state security forces resorted to arbitrary arrests, imprisonment, well trials, kidnapping, torture, rape castration, and extrajudicial killings.

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So under President Geisel, more moderate, who was more moderate regarding political opposition, so he was not a hardliner per se.

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There was a political plan of slow, gradual liberalization called distant

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 So during that time there was a decrease of repression, the end of the fifth institutional act. But torture and extrajudicial killings of left-wing political opponents was still ongoing.

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So in 1 78, or since the beginning of the dictatorship, really, amnesty was always one of the most recurring requests made by grassroots activists.

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It was for political prisoners and not covering State agents responsible of human rights violations

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so popular support among the the population pushed government to accept. But in 1 79, when the Government adopted a reciprocal amnesty, it was benefiting the State agents responsible for human rights violations and excluding ex-girlown members.

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So the Government guaranteed that trials and punishment of State agents responsible of human rights violations would be impossible to achieve.

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The Brazilian should

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transition accurate. In 1985 via process of negotiation and concessions military in charge of the terms of transition to civilian rules.

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it's something new, rule. Sorry

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leading to the paradoxical phenomenon of an unruttured regime change. So the result was an authoritarian, authoritarian enclaves that were perpetuated under democracy as a legacy of the military era.

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So, despite a new constitution in 1988, human rights remain theoretical for most resilience.

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and Brazil remains the country most affected by impunity in the region.

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and the government is far from proactive in establishing truth and justice.

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So just to give you an idea.

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the first justice, initiative, or truth and justice initiative happened in 1,985. But it wasn't actually actually by the State. It was members of the Church that were behind

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the the effort. So it led to an unofficial truth report documenting use of torture by the dictatorship.

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This was going to be used later on when the Cnb. Was established under Dilma Rousseff, but at the time it was strictly a church initiative.

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so we had to wait 10 years in 1,995, with the law of the disappeared to see the first truth initiative by the State. First recognition. By this it was the first recognition by the state of responsibility for human rights violations under the dictatorship.

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And it was strictly our reparations program. So no investigation, no punitive powers whatsoever.

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a second reparations program. came to be in 2,001. So it was the Amnesty Commission. Its mandate was to examine requests and grant reparations for victims of abuses that were not covered by the law of the disappeared

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again. There was no investigation into human rights crimes, no punitive powers whatsoever.

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In 2,010. The first time the amnesty law was challenged in the Court of justice was the time the Supreme Court actually had to render a decision on it. So in a decision and a 7 2 decision, the judges confirmed the validity of the amnesty law.

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Brazil was condemned twice by the Inter-american Court of Human Rights.

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for the incompatibility of the amnesty law of 1,979 with the American Convention of Human Rights. So the first time was in 2,010, a case of Gomez and all the Brazil, and the second time was in 2,018 case of Herzog, and I'll be Brazil in 2,018 the the

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Inter-american Court actually

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condemned Brazil because of the

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Supreme Court decision to validate the amnesty.

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So the National Truth Commission came to be in 2,012, under Dilma Rousseff, almost 30 years after the transition. It details human rights violations, listing both perpetrators and victims. It identified 433, 434 victims, 191 deaths, and 200 243 for its disappearances.

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The Cnv. Had no punitive powers, again, against those responsible of human rights violations, but it made a link between extreme contemporary violence and dictatorship, state agents and impunity.

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So in 2,021 there was a first condemnation. So it was highly symbolic. Carlos Alberto Augusto, who was a former police officer. Under the dictatorship was the first State agent to be convicted at the criminal level for human rights violations and political opponents string the

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Brazilian military dictatorship

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While it was highly symbolic. In 2,022 the decision was overturned, and a judge decided that the case fell under the protection of the amnesty law.

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So how does impunity, fuel, contemporary violence, and impede democracy?

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Many experts have theorized. Why impunity leads to continued violence and in peace. Democracy

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in Brazil a culture of past and present impunity, is depriving the democratic state of its rule of law undermining the power to deter the conduct law prohibits by undercutting the law's power of deterrence. Impunity allows for the continuation of a culture of violence. Despite the democratic transition.

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So Bolsonaro is actually a symbol of the failure of this, of the failure to repudiate state violence. It's a great example of the prevalence prevalence of a culture of violence in Brazil, and more specifically, of how impunity can encourage the extension beyond the transition of the social norms and values of violence as well as the social acceptance of violence.

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Thank you.

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It's going to be easier to do. The transition.

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You may upload me slides. Yeah, I will just

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here.

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Oh, that's it.

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How can I skip which one? Just this one? Okay.

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And I can take some water.

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Okay? So Novoy, I present are in Espaniol, Pero, Tampoka, and Polakko.

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Okay, thanks. Thanks for for for acceptance of this, this, this presentation.

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When I was listening to you, I I I was thinking that I should my explain myself a little bit, because it's not going to be about democratization at least

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explicitly, explicitly. It's not going to be about rights, at least explicitly, and it also is not going to be about social movements. But my presentation, as you, I hope. See. Tackles those those issues. So it's it's going to be about respect.

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And so I think that we, as sociologists sometimes should start from the very bottom to understand how this very bottom operates with the with the larger the larger system. So let's start from the bottom. Okay, so when people in my country. Respect this, by the way, I think present everywhere. So when you enter this bending, you see respect, recognition, you tackle the words recognition, and my presentation is put in the framework of recognition theory.

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which I find very apt to understand many phenomena that are happening around the world. So let's talk from the respect. Everybody wants respect, but I think not. Everybody can conceptualize to or answer the question about respect.

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So one person from my country, I'm from Poland.

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this in our situation, I think in the words system. We've talked about it before. It is a difficult question at the beginning. I think it is simple. It simply means to be a decent, well-mannered, cultural and thinking person, but also someone significant, a role model for others.

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Another person. It's a difficult question, in my opinion, to be a worthy person in general is to live in such a way as not to harm others, act ethically, help others. If someone doesn't understand something, explain it.

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And so more and more people underlines the, the, the, the the need to have health, of helping others when they think about the where fee a worthy person. So it's it's worth to keep in mind. This worthy keeping in mind is basic observations. So to give you a context of all of this of this presentation, because which we are probably not familiar with

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is that the recognition? But I I think that it it pertains also to many of your countries. By the way, the recognition has be one of the main, a access of the social and in effect, political conflict in Poland, because social conflicts are translated into political conflicts, and it really happened rarely happens on the opposite on the other way around

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groups of people. Of course there were, as in your countries, probably there. There are groups of people who are neglected, misrepresented, and deprived of access to cultural circulation, or even they weren't, they were reprive, and that, you know, as a result, they thought that they couldn't express their political opinions, which is in the context of your presentation.

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But Poland is at the same stage the same time, or was at the same time the post, common use and post state of society. I'm not going to delve deeper into that issue. But in the context of respect it is a very important fact, because we do not, as probably you in in Chile, or you in Brazil, etc. You don't have this strong bourgeoisie that they have in Australia, that they have in German, and that they have in Great Britain, etc.

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So I think that recognition plays in such societies. When, for example, in societies, when they have indigenous people, recognition plays a super special role, I would say.

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and yeah, and it is especially important in times of change. Okay? But to I think that it might interest you a little bit if you are not familiar with it, but I hope some of you do.

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it's It's a theory invented. But Axleholnet, and this is a fear of recognition that combines those many aspects of recognition that there's about on the one side, about self-confidence as a kind of recognition that we have with our significant elders. And it's about love. Love is a very important thing in life.

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a self-respect at Johnson's law, and it generally has a lot of to do with the state and self-esteem that produces or not produce solidarity, or does not produce solidarity. And it's How we relate with others in the same society. The solidarity is a big word in Polish society. By the way, you've heard about it.

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Mit, Ctl. And some time ago, okay, but what is interesting from sociological point of view, who is trying to be more critical is the, you know, the dark side of the moon right? So the the other side of the coin. So what happens if people are misrecognized, or you know they they do not. One

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 experience respect.

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So in according to a axial homage theory. In the first.

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let's say, on the First level. however, there are not levels. Okay, it. It leads to physical abuse.

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On the Second level. It leads to the deprivation of rights that I've mentioned that it's somehow it tackles to your presentation. And in this third level it leads to the contempt. Okay. And there are different forms of recognition that people may perceive in a society when they live in. And we can imagine a person who can be deprived of rights, but at the same time is

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 is a is quite prestigious, like a black man in America, for example, he can be in a set on a certain point of view and a certain he of life. Yeah, he can feel this in this ratios and things, and the fact that he's deprived of rights, and in in certain sense, but this at the same time, he he might be a very wealthy guy.

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So on the on the other. On the other hand, he he might be a professor of the University, for example. So he is a prestigious man, a prestigious person. So that's why those different 4 different forms of recognition

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should be keep kept in mind. But it's good to separate them. So to keep at least to keep them together. Okay, that people experience different forms of recognition because I do not have time. But I would like what? But it's very important. There was a discussion between Axel Honn and and Nancy Fraser, by the way, they are from the same school about their distribution and recognition, in other words, between the status on culture and and economy what is really important and what place

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a a huge role when we talk about recognition. I'm not going to talk about that because we are a lot I am. We are sure of time, and I have only a few minutes left. Okay, but it's it's good to keep in my cultural boundaries, especially in our communities, especially in communities that are very diverse.

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Okay, I'm just also going to talk about my meetings. But there, there were, or very briefly. I I do that very briefly. I I have data from 2 surveys on representative sample of police society that were done into consecutive years in 2,020 and 2,021,

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by the way, 2,020 it was in the autumn was just very important, because there was a huge protest of women against the new law that was imposed by the our Government

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on abortion. What is this really interesting? And it's worth keeping in mind, but also data that I think are more important. But of course it's a kind of a mixed method analysis that are gathered through in-depth interviews. So how people, you know to just to get a deeper understanding what people understand, what they they can say when they is that I got gathered through surveys

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and the main, of course I can. Because is that what I'm going to do? Here is a part of a larger product. In fact, I'm writing. I'm trying to write a book about that. So I'm going to present only a few excerpts for for this from this research, and I concentrate on 2 things.

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Firstly, I would like to show you how people understand the wealthy person, then that that why it is impossible that they respect or recognize everyone, and, in fact, in as a result, what and in in in the last part of my presentation, I will try to show you what happens when when they are unrecognized.

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 okay, so let's start from the general survey made by the Polish one of the Polish institutions that people generally feel respected for 7 min. Okay, so I'm in the middle.

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the people generally feel respected. They enjoy, let's say, medium prestige. So it's not bad. So it's not bad.

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When I asked my respondents in those representative survey about why they respect people. Most of them said that they respect people for attitudes

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Towards others and the and the word. And it simply means what kind of people they are. So it's a very idealistic response. I would say, right to respect people for who they are

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and also for qualification and skills. So they don't. You know, they do not respect people because they are professors, because they are wealthy, etc., but because they are normal people who deserve they respect. It's it's okay. So it'll be all fine.

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it'll be on fine. So it's the same story.

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Oh.

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these are the answers they give in those in-depth interviews. I'm not going to read them, of course.

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 And, by the way, it's quite important in observation that people, when asked about values that are important in their life. Only 1% of them

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told that. I said that

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That respect is really important, but they change the opinion we can say when they, when they are asked

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about about about their political attitudes, so to speak. Okay, from my research just to to, to, to, to, to the very call, the presentation. When people are asked about who they think is unfairly.

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who our experience are, and who is denied respect in contemporary Polish society.

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Like almost 30%. People said that minorities of a different kind, sexual, racial, national, etc.

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And and the other group we did was one group, and this group is those that is constituted by those who are better off, by those who live in big cities, by those who have better education, by those who are young. And there was the other group who who who told that

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there is the other group who is disrespected in Poland, due to the education due to the unemployment due to a material status that leads me to the conclusion that leads me to the conclusion.

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and that there are 2, in my opinion, 2 main recognition gaps in Polish society, that when one pertain to the minorities, and the other to the lowest segments of the middle class, or to popular classes, so to speak, working or urban working classes, one

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that feel that feel disrespect from elites mainly, and I name them. They denigrate it after they access this, the axle on that stand by by by the way, they feel denigrated. So they are denigrated in a way, but they are disrespected.

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For 2 different reasons. What is what is quite interesting for the last, I would say sentence of this presentation.

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because the first refers to this feel of the self-respect resulting in deprivation of rights, I mean minorities, or those people who are the part of minorities feel that they are disrespectful because they do not have a set on certain rights that protect them, and the other form of a misrecognition, so to speak, is because people feel that they are disregarded, due to the situation. So it's more about esteem. Okay?

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And those 2 logics of recognition. And this is the the the the point of this presentation that might maybe interest you

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about that, though this is a source of conflict and tensions, because

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 Because these tensions are exploited by by the Government, who, of course, address policies to underline the importance of The importance of ordinary men and women in working class, but they do something more. They present this respect as a kind of zero-sum game, that it means that

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you have this your respect because because you you are, you are not respected because someone let's say took your respect from you. But when when we take into account that those 2 different

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kinds of misrecognition operates on a different level. We cannot say so right? Because there are different different kinds of

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recognition.

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Okay,

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So what is very interesting? The last point, what is very interesting, that people, when they are asked about respect and recognition, of course everybody underlines the importance of respect. But, in fact, when we delve in deeper into the experiences, everybody at the same time experience a disrespect from one kind of the other, and I think that this one kind of the other can be named as mainly as a

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as a disrespect due to the deprivation of rights of this respect due to the deprivation of the lack of solidarity, and these tensions are, of course, exploited all the time, and there is no force, I would say, that can somehow stop it in Poland. Thanks.

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and do move forward to our lest

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presentation that is pre recorded

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so as a surprise. You never know it's like 5 min or 20 min, or half an hour.

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 and

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3.

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I don't know if it's a Powerpoint with a audio, or

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yes, it should be

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no

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order.

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Let me check. If the person is online.

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the

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not

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is

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I don't see the zoom either

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something to

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 she's

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yeah, so while we try to solve the technical problems. We

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we'll start with questions and comments

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and make some coming.

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Maybe we need the mic.

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So all presenters you can move to the front. We're still waiting for the the presentation from Brazil. So we thought we would start the discussion, invite everybody to. Yeah, it's a long flight. It is

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absolutely so

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the

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you can make the comment, yes, I will handle the computer. Okay, good. Good. Good. Thank you. So. thank you for your attention. As you saw, we have quite a broad comparative perspective.

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and what is interesting for us is that when we got the grant from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

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Mexico, Chile, and Columbia were all right-wing countries with right-wing governments, and during the course of the research project they all elected leftist government of different types, of course, because

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we all know that well, typically Mexico is a Leftist Populist government, whereas Borix's government in Chile and Petro's Government and Columbia are very different and more based on social movements. We can have a discussion, Ricardo, about that after. But nevertheless, it's very interesting for us and for you. I hope

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to see how criminalization continues to go on or is changing, or what's happening. And this is what

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our presentations were also about. There is evidence that criminalisation is still going on, even though these progressive governments in these 3 countries are there? So what kind?

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Okay, so what kind of repression? What kind of prospective solutions, as Professor Rojas told us, are going on. So it's a mixed balance of

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progress and things that are still yet to be, or changes that are still yet to be made, and perhaps In in a light of the recognition theory that Professor Kulas presented us with. So I just wanted to say that it's it's a

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we know social sciences are constantly, ever constantly changing. But this is a very, very specific situation where we have to measure the progress that has been made in the course of like 3, 4 years. And it's very interesting to be presenting these results and discussing them with you. So is the presentation ready now?

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01:11:14.710 --> 01:11:19.800
No, no, no. And the person is not online. Okay, so it's a good news.

348
01:11:19.950 --> 01:11:30.810
It's very. It's very late. Yes, the presentation is not there. The person is not there. Well.

349
01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:41.350
we have more time for discussion. We have more time for discussion. So. maybe I can go around it the microphone, if anybody would like to.

350
01:11:41.430 --> 01:11:53.649
So if you'd like to just go to the mic. Yes, because the the session is being headquartered. Oh, yes.

351
01:11:53.750 --> 01:11:58.800
I am going to give you a presentation about them. It the same amount of

352
01:11:58.830 --> 01:12:01.730
I was visualization for South Korean Peace

353
01:12:02.140 --> 01:12:12.830
and Korea's South Korea standard, the military decayership. Over 3 decades we moved the transition to democracy or Mp. From 1,987,

354
01:12:12.910 --> 01:12:15.359
and I'm listening to your presentation.

355
01:12:15.520 --> 01:12:21.170
The same thing happened in Korea in the past, and now is undergoing.

356
01:12:21.340 --> 01:12:25.749
I don't know if you know. Last year we left

357
01:12:25.860 --> 01:12:28.380
home. Of what's to the General

358
01:12:29.030 --> 01:12:30.400
into present.

359
01:12:30.810 --> 01:12:35.509
He actually prosecuted 2 former. I'm sorry with you, please. Then

360
01:12:35.630 --> 01:12:36.560
into prison.

361
01:12:37.500 --> 01:12:38.799
Now the

362
01:12:38.870 --> 01:12:42.049
constructive party just pick up him

363
01:12:42.160 --> 01:12:46.930
as the their candidate. and they just to

364
01:12:47.670 --> 01:12:52.900
one of the elections. Now the the control to party day or in

365
01:12:53.610 --> 01:12:54.880
power

366
01:12:55.210 --> 01:13:02.730
after immigration, he. the dinner tried to govern South Korea. He tried to just prosecute

367
01:13:03.360 --> 01:13:09.350
in your term it's criminalizing, or that ocean movement sectors

368
01:13:09.820 --> 01:13:11.660
the opposition party

369
01:13:11.870 --> 01:13:14.249
I'm 31 in captures.

370
01:13:14.500 --> 01:13:26.630
So I think the criminalization. of course, in South Korea I come to you like that. And after Democratization and South Korea come join some

371
01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:32.029
advanced country's club. I think we just get out of the trip

372
01:13:32.460 --> 01:13:46.010
from from military to gifts to Democrats and river in globalization. And now, with 3 times of government. I think we just overcome the

373
01:13:46.300 --> 01:13:54.520
I'm going over there. So my occasion is this. you are talking about some link between the impunity

374
01:13:55.930 --> 01:14:01.049
from the former dictators, and over that.

375
01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:03.680
and this is

376
01:14:04.780 --> 01:14:10.239
 In Korea the same, we are still divided. We are confront with North Korea.

377
01:14:10.410 --> 01:14:22.019
so even the Conservatives are killed. The former present man, J. As a Communist in South Korea.

378
01:14:25.550 --> 01:14:29.379
just a kind of a

379
01:14:29.800 --> 01:14:33.630
so, the kind of a harsh confrontation still reduced.

380
01:14:33.910 --> 01:14:40.680
So, even though the transition to democracy. We just prosecuted a former

381
01:14:40.750 --> 01:14:42.170
3 dictators

382
01:14:42.440 --> 01:14:50.969
that just pattern. Just a couple of months later, even the democratically elected President did not have some power-based

383
01:14:51.330 --> 01:14:52.400
negotiation.

384
01:14:52.990 --> 01:14:58.540
So almost the same. We have also the close commission

385
01:14:58.630 --> 01:15:01.110
on this little.

386
01:15:02.380 --> 01:15:07.019
So What I try to escape all of you is, is

387
01:15:07.050 --> 01:15:08.900
the link between.

388
01:15:09.520 --> 01:15:21.030
So it's going to a path and criminalization. And I want to ask you who really is the the institution for the

389
01:15:21.390 --> 01:15:22.230
2

390
01:15:22.750 --> 01:15:25.600
exercising working power behind the scene.

391
01:15:25.860 --> 01:15:41.339
Thank you so much. Maybe we can take a few more questions.

392
01:15:41.380 --> 01:15:45.829
and I have a question for Pietrangelo.

393
01:15:46.270 --> 01:16:03.210
So trust is more error of curiosity. Did you find the concept of dignity as well being relevant in your research, especially considering these different social movements like in Chile Brazil, that we have talked.

394
01:16:03.210 --> 01:16:18.159
Dignity has become this call for recognition, but also for action and the of distributed justice, but also other kinds of justice. So I want to know if maybe you found that also in your research, and how that would be different from respect if you did.

395
01:16:18.190 --> 01:16:41.370
The other question quick question is, how a generalizable do you think your findings are? A of course the surveys about Poland? But there is this component that we feel that maybe this, Issue of recognition is also general for all the societies. What would be the limitations on the reach of of the yeah. How do you know? I suppose this could be or not. Thank you.

396
01:16:43.810 --> 01:16:46.110
And the last question.

397
01:16:47.430 --> 01:16:56.209
yeah, good afternoon. I thank you for your presentations. My name is Camilla Tomato. I'm Colombian working in a English University University of Huddersfield.

398
01:16:56.230 --> 01:17:06.889
and I have a question for Hugo Rochas, Professor of G. Rojas. I would like to know your reflections or your theories regarding why the police

399
01:17:06.950 --> 01:17:28.000
in Chile are targeting the eyes of the demonstrators. And how do you think this action of punishment is related to the criminalization of activists and civilians in Chile. I just want to know if you have explore this kind of anthropological or symbolic dimension of that action of 100

400
01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:56.490
of targeting the eyes. Because I have been doing some research in Colombia that, you know, is similar to that kind of particular police brutality action. So I just want to know your perceptions of of that. And the second question is for Professor Col. As well from a Poland. I would like to know if you have any kind of affections about the emotional construction of recognition, and in the case of of Poland, and how that a

401
01:17:56.630 --> 01:18:25.189
they mentioned emotional dimension of recognition is or is not part of you a research, because, as you know, one of the important dimensions of recognition is how you can feel recognized by the and how that global dynamic of be recognized and recognition can change different kind of perceptions. So I want to know, you have explored this kind of emotional connections in your researching poem, and thank you so much for your presentation. Thank you.

402
01:18:27.080 --> 01:18:49.719
So who wants to step in? And I still have the cards if you take a a lot of time, if I may say so. I think maybe you were not present. But Professor Pennyfell also talked about the ocular lesions. So maybe if you want to answer to, just put a word in, it would be this well, the anthropological dimension. Thank you. So the the table is your all yours.

403
01:19:02.730 --> 01:19:10.380
They're all very interesting questions to talk about impunity, dignity, recognition. So I'll just start with a very

404
01:19:10.530 --> 01:19:16.709
a specific question, but I'm sure later on in the conversation, I'm going to move to the other topics.

405
01:19:16.910 --> 01:19:20.590
what happened in with the police in Chile?

406
01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:24.259
The police was created in 1,927,

407
01:19:24.280 --> 01:19:28.060
and it's a very militarized police. It doesn't form.

408
01:19:28.410 --> 01:19:34.199
The caravaners do not form part of the armed forces, but are closely related.

409
01:19:34.490 --> 01:19:43.299
and in Chile we talk about the armed forces and security and other services.

410
01:19:44.620 --> 01:19:50.080
That being said is just to try to help you with some comparison.

411
01:19:50.120 --> 01:19:52.000
Chile's police is

412
01:19:52.300 --> 01:19:58.349
very similar to the armed forces. That's something that you

413
01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:09.520
can consider a a feature that distinguishes the Chilean police from probably other police. That's the first idea, the second.

414
01:20:10.500 --> 01:20:11.370
I

415
01:20:11.490 --> 01:20:24.449
 scholars, we have to do some self-criticism because we did not pay attention to the police during that transition to democracy

416
01:20:24.830 --> 01:20:31.939
and social scientists were more interested in other topics, for example, reduction of poverty

417
01:20:31.960 --> 01:20:38.340
and inequality that the transitional justice

418
01:20:38.370 --> 01:20:39.440
and

419
01:20:39.510 --> 01:20:44.969
and we didn't pay attention to what was happening in the education of the police

420
01:20:44.980 --> 01:20:51.309
and also in the control mechanisms and accountability and transparency of the police.

421
01:20:51.810 --> 01:20:52.940
So

422
01:20:53.520 --> 01:21:00.150
these bullets they shot to the people in in 2,019.

423
01:21:00.370 --> 01:21:01.930
It wasn't new.

424
01:21:02.260 --> 01:21:08.580
They had for at least 18 years had black technology, unfortunately.

425
01:21:08.890 --> 01:21:14.150
and short eyes of people previously.

426
01:21:14.210 --> 01:21:16.980
if there were exceptional cases.

427
01:21:17.320 --> 01:21:18.290
But

428
01:21:18.850 --> 01:21:29.190
civilians did not look at those cases, and we didn't control the police. So I am making a very strong criticism of the lack of dialogue

429
01:21:29.210 --> 01:21:33.129
between social scientists and the police in Chile

430
01:21:33.890 --> 01:21:34.920
in.

431
01:21:39.100 --> 01:21:44.040
and I also have to mention that the politicians didn't want to bother with the police.

432
01:21:45.360 --> 01:21:51.219
3 days after the explosion happened in October the eighteenth, 2,019,

433
01:21:52.570 --> 01:21:55.870
a doctor in a Southern town in Chile.

434
01:21:56.060 --> 01:22:00.919
It an X-ray to a person who had a bullet in the in the head.

435
01:22:01.310 --> 01:22:06.999
and he realized it wasn't a rubber. It was a

436
01:22:07.070 --> 01:22:08.570
a

437
01:22:09.860 --> 01:22:11.010
with metal.

438
01:22:11.490 --> 01:22:16.289
and he with the X-ray. He sent immediately and report, and denounced

439
01:22:16.810 --> 01:22:24.250
the ballots that the police were using, and the of Tammologist Association also denounced publicly.

440
01:22:24.670 --> 01:22:39.879
and the politicians and the government. The government. I did not stop this from happening that can. Also, I am trying to make another argument is how much political power the police has in Chile compare

441
01:22:39.950 --> 01:22:42.100
to other countries. So

442
01:22:42.940 --> 01:22:55.199
now that we are in a constituent process, in the first wave of the discussion, in 2,021, 2,022. One of the demands presented was to re-found the police.

443
01:22:56.190 --> 01:22:59.900
 That well.

444
01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:11.650
1 min left but that narrative to refine. We found the the police

445
01:23:12.540 --> 01:23:19.970
wasn't approved by the majority of the society, and now they're going back. Another factor. I have to tell you

446
01:23:20.090 --> 01:23:25.499
the most popular organization. The most respectful

447
01:23:25.820 --> 01:23:29.559
organization in Chile in the transition is the police

448
01:23:30.040 --> 01:23:35.750
more than the Catholic Church or the 5 men or anybody? Is the police.

449
01:23:36.180 --> 01:23:38.529
brilliant Lapole police.

450
01:23:38.730 --> 01:23:41.139
and even now, for years

451
01:23:41.210 --> 01:23:45.489
they trust the police, the most trust institution in the country

452
01:23:45.710 --> 01:24:00.569
by far. And now they were attacked in 2,019. But now they're getting their prestige back. So they be very popular right now, and the society is just supporting the police, forgetting what happened in 2,019. Okay, so

453
01:24:01.810 --> 01:24:04.820
I hope this helps. you know. There you

454
01:24:08.450 --> 01:24:10.370
for the first

455
01:24:10.520 --> 01:24:14.720
commentary or question. I think the problem is the State.

456
01:24:14.730 --> 01:24:21.080
That's when we do a comparative analysis.

457
01:24:21.430 --> 01:24:26.420
you have criminalization in every State.

458
01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:35.430
And the other problem is what we call representative government, that others call democratic governments.

459
01:24:35.470 --> 01:24:40.749
They they they're supposed to be represented tattoo, but they are not.

460
01:24:40.890 --> 01:24:55.559
their delegative governments, and they they think that they, because they were elected. They have all the power, the the decision, and the sovereignty of

461
01:24:55.690 --> 01:25:00.150
for over the population and the decision.

462
01:25:00.330 --> 01:25:09.170
So when people contest this monopoly of the decision of sovereignty. They they attack

463
01:25:09.940 --> 01:25:21.270
sometimes more, sometime less. But yesterday we were with the What was the name of the

464
01:25:21.480 --> 01:25:23.840
what? What?

465
01:25:23.990 --> 01:25:36.249
And you said, it's the same in Australia. And if we if we do a an analysis of Canada, we will have to those kind of criminalization. So

466
01:25:36.370 --> 01:25:41.159
the problem is the state and the the fact that these states

467
01:25:41.280 --> 01:25:45.680
it's supposed to be democratic, but it denies the

468
01:25:46.480 --> 01:25:54.470
right of opposition. This is the the main problem with criminalization. And this

469
01:25:55.460 --> 01:25:58.169
I would like to

470
01:25:58.480 --> 01:26:01.590
to ask a question about

471
01:26:01.730 --> 01:26:10.069
material recognition, because when I read it I read it as a Marxist as a

472
01:26:10.100 --> 01:26:12.590
in

473
01:26:13.030 --> 01:26:16.020
a critical theory.

474
01:26:16.100 --> 01:26:21.420
and I wrote it as a proposition for

475
01:26:21.620 --> 01:26:28.259
alienate alienation theory. And there was, I don't know. How do you say in

476
01:26:28.450 --> 01:26:30.400
in the

477
01:26:30.440 --> 01:26:40.579
the society of Miss. and this is what we have

478
01:26:40.780 --> 01:26:44.299
in Chile is

479
01:26:44.590 --> 01:26:47.529
may be denied of recognition.

480
01:26:47.780 --> 01:26:49.890
And and this

481
01:26:50.310 --> 01:26:56.120
This is the the main problem that we cannot go.

482
01:26:56.140 --> 01:27:03.979
We cannot have a real democratic society if you don't recognize the right.

483
01:27:04.070 --> 01:27:10.900
A position and dignity is is one of the main

484
01:27:11.270 --> 01:27:13.100
symbols

485
01:27:13.250 --> 01:27:18.889
of every movement uprising that that we analyzed.

486
01:27:24.830 --> 01:27:34.350
Okay? Bye, bye, before I start, I have a question to the if I can, I can I? Can I? Can I, if I pronounce it correctly

487
01:27:34.400 --> 01:27:41.110
about, how would you comment this this situation lately? These uprisings, let's say in Brazil

488
01:27:41.110 --> 01:28:06.110
that happened after Lula was elected as a president. I mean you so, so, so sorry. This is because it's too much stress here. That's why. So for coming about, how do you? How would you command this? Because you end it with Bolsonaro? Right? And how do you command the command on this situation with when I was elected, and Bol. Scenario was in in the United

489
01:28:06.110 --> 01:28:09.669
States, in fact, and there was an uprising, a kind of

490
01:28:09.760 --> 01:28:18.179
Ok, so in the vein of your presentation. But going back to the question.

491
01:28:18.250 --> 01:28:23.840
I think that dignity is, namely, another term for respect, so to speak.

492
01:28:23.890 --> 01:28:43.020
that we can use them in E in in exchangeably. in a sense. I think that we need a good theory to know what is going about in a society. That's why I've decided to use this recognition theory by Axel Hannett. Firstly, because it's the only recognition theory that we have.

493
01:28:43.390 --> 01:28:48.120
Of course, it's not perfect theory, and it lacks many

494
01:28:48.170 --> 01:29:03.780
in many aspects. And so I'm I I I even want to later in at the end tell something about the aspect because it was it was. It was your I I think, question less. The last question.

495
01:29:03.780 --> 01:29:28.999
Okay, so the dignity is just another name. I my presentation or my thinking about it. It's more than presentation. It's rooted deeply into Max Weber theory of honour. And he's thinking about the society because we all know a sociologist that we are divided, and so society. But we have to adopt the certain theory of so of of div division, and I adopted the the of the Max Weber

496
01:29:29.030 --> 01:29:51.499
it. it is convenience. By the way, what what Nancy Fraser has to say about it, and that the First division is about class, of course, how we differ economically, which is very important. But the second division is about status that we, as a members of a different group, have different status. And we appreciated of this this status right? And

497
01:29:51.500 --> 01:29:59.150
because of our cultural, our way of life, how we speak, how we talk, what how we were okay. And this is really important. So dignity

498
01:29:59.150 --> 01:30:15.990
it it might be as a a very good term to underline the moral aspect of respect or recognition, but it wasn't operationalized enough enough to to use it. Of course, I think that is a synonym just to just to end the in the

499
01:30:16.360 --> 01:30:37.670
to talking that I operation operationalized. My, it was the the second part of your question, my, my, my my whole research based on Axel home a theory, but keeping in mind that there is distension between recognition, and there is a distribution that is very important. I think that Nancy Fraser really asks her

500
01:30:37.850 --> 01:30:59.489
such a huge question when recognition supports recognition, and when it is more likely to undermine it. It is very crucial question, because she even offers a kind of a matrix right, the metrics in which you can put a certain person when he or she is

501
01:30:59.960 --> 01:31:12.109
in terms of recognition and in terms of redistribution, and it happens that people can have a very high rate of redistribution. Right? They may be like this man

502
01:31:12.110 --> 01:31:30.470
from my presentation from the United States, but a very low rate in terms of recognition and in different types of society. It happens differently, I would say. That's why it's worth to observe that. But it's also, I think, that the operationalization of this research

503
01:31:30.590 --> 01:31:55.319
in many parts can be duplic, that you, you know you can. You can. you can use it many times. And by the way, I refer, okay, you have for 1 min. I I refer to the to the, to the, to the work of Michel Lamont. She did it, of course, on many occasions, asking about my in cultural boundaries, asking about respect in different countries in Brazil, by the way.

504
01:31:55.330 --> 01:31:59.230
in in Israel and in the United States.

505
01:31:59.300 --> 01:32:16.989
Okay? And the last. Okay, the first 30 min. The recognition theory was also, and it is very important for this panel, and I couldn't say that I I cannot be happier to be here because I have my 2 Phd. Students who does the the who do they research? One in Mexico.

506
01:32:17.110 --> 01:32:22.120
so to speak, and the other one in Uruguay. And

507
01:32:22.490 --> 01:32:30.529
I think the recognition theory, of course, has many falls, and the first one is the question of power.

508
01:32:30.550 --> 01:32:52.680
Okay, the question of power. The second the the second falls is the I'm stopping here. The second falls is the question of class. Okay, that those theoretical theurities, so especially actually on that they sometimes forget about the aspect of class that people not only want to be recognized, but sometimes have to eat something

509
01:32:55.930 --> 01:32:56.720
I mean.

510
01:32:57.820 --> 01:33:07.280
 thank you. So I'm going to answer the 2 questions.

511
01:33:07.420 --> 01:33:09.700
the question about Korea.

512
01:33:10.090 --> 01:33:11.920
So

513
01:33:12.160 --> 01:33:21.270
in my opinion, due to the fact that and criminalization happens pretty much everywhere, and it's quite systematic, as Ricardo mentioned.

514
01:33:21.550 --> 01:33:25.079
I'm not sure that we can.

515
01:33:25.420 --> 01:33:29.360
Hello.

516
01:33:30.420 --> 01:33:47.639
So I'm not sure it's really a matter of who exercises power behind the scenes, but rather because criminalization is quite systematic and happens everywhere in the world there are pretty much 2 things that I would consider important.

517
01:33:47.780 --> 01:33:54.500
so impunity as we, because that was the main focus of your question.

518
01:33:54.510 --> 01:34:00.010
impedes repudiation of past, the dictatorial violence. Right?

519
01:34:00.210 --> 01:34:04.409
and this is dangerous regarding non-reportation of crimes.

520
01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:13.619
 this also leads to criminal criminalization also happening due to the fact. Security forces.

521
01:34:14.270 --> 01:34:16.650
and police

522
01:34:16.890 --> 01:34:25.160
included, defend a model of democracy based on a social order. Human rights defenders are actually contesting.

523
01:34:25.810 --> 01:34:35.779
So in my opinion it's not a matter of who isn't controlled behind the scenes, but as of a system. Ricardo mentioned the state system. State to me. They are like synonyms here.

524
01:34:35.980 --> 01:34:43.829
 so a system trying to preserve a social order that is in part dictatorial legacy.

525
01:34:43.960 --> 01:34:45.490
a violence.

526
01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:50.080
and it is difficult to question practices of violence of the past

527
01:34:50.310 --> 01:34:51.389
due to that

528
01:34:51.950 --> 01:35:07.969
And your question regarding Glolsonaro, I would say that Bol Snar is unabashed. authoritarian discourse and its reception within society can be explained by impunity, in part because there was no repudiation of violence

529
01:35:08.740 --> 01:35:12.830
within society, and the norms of violence are still seen as acceptable.

530
01:35:12.950 --> 01:35:32.300
and an important segment of the population with fake news also. and the fact that there's no repudiation of the dictatorial violence. A large segment of the population turns to demand a military dictatorship. which you don't really see as as much in other countries.

531
01:35:32.630 --> 01:35:33.770
So yeah.

532
01:35:43.590 --> 01:35:45.570
yes, yes.

533
01:35:48.290 --> 01:35:56.810
Other questions as you have time for some another round of questions. We always have questions, but we we hold them.

534
01:35:57.280 --> 01:35:58.140
Yeah.

535
01:35:58.330 --> 01:36:01.589
yeah, you get the the mic, please.

536
01:36:06.200 --> 01:36:08.959
I can. I can give you more minutes. Okay?

537
01:36:08.980 --> 01:36:10.020
So

538
01:36:10.800 --> 01:36:15.440
I think the main goal that we are all facing here in this panel is

539
01:36:15.510 --> 01:36:23.980
how we move forward to a democratic culture having a human having human rights in the common sense of all citizens.

540
01:36:24.290 --> 01:36:35.330
and I believe there are profound groups in the culture of impunity and authoritarianism in these different countries, including South Korea.

541
01:36:35.390 --> 01:36:39.380
It is very, very difficult to change the culture

542
01:36:39.580 --> 01:36:41.609
of an authoritarian

543
01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:44.590
group or sector

544
01:36:44.860 --> 01:36:56.560
in Chile. An explanation requires a panoramic view of 200 years of republic. but empirically has been demonstrated by Elisabeth Lyra and Brian Loffman

545
01:36:56.580 --> 01:37:01.449
that every time we had a violent conflict in our in our country.

546
01:37:01.640 --> 01:37:04.810
The way the State responded was similar.

547
01:37:06.010 --> 01:37:14.709
approving amnesties, trying to forget, avoiding taking the cases, to court, putting pressure on judges.

548
01:37:15.280 --> 01:37:21.949
and pretending that we could forget and and erased the past.

549
01:37:22.920 --> 01:37:29.229
So the cop of the Chilean Government historically approved amnesty laws and cynically, cynically gave pardons

550
01:37:29.590 --> 01:37:35.719
for getting the events. Now because of the magnitude of the cross human rights violations that occurred

551
01:37:35.770 --> 01:37:38.020
during Pinocchet's dictatorship.

552
01:37:38.580 --> 01:37:47.309
This was the first time we we are trying, and we still are, after 30 years of transition to democracy

553
01:37:47.820 --> 01:37:51.250
to confront the atrocities.

554
01:37:53.010 --> 01:38:08.400
So part of that. My comment is that to understand the culture of impunity you have to dig in the the historical, profound roots of the culture of our society and intervene. And it's hard to intervene that culture.

555
01:38:08.550 --> 01:38:15.429
We also don't can forget that we have to deal with 2 very peculiar groups.

556
01:38:15.570 --> 01:38:20.020
they indifferent to human rights relations and the ambivalent

557
01:38:20.310 --> 01:38:29.689
to human rights. These are people who do not support a democratic culture.

558
01:38:29.720 --> 01:38:32.279
have other priorities in life

559
01:38:32.780 --> 01:38:39.160
that do not care. We have surveys on this do not care if we have a rule of law.

560
01:38:39.180 --> 01:38:52.120
For example, last month there was a survey in Chile that showed that 38% of adult Chileans believed that the cooped tat the pinochet did 50 years ago was correct.

561
01:38:52.410 --> 01:38:55.439
and that survey was just a mythical.

562
01:38:56.150 --> 01:39:03.539
Another challenge is to engage these people who do not give importance to human rights

563
01:39:03.580 --> 01:39:10.670
and and and democracy. I truly believe it is relevant to understand better the culture of the society.

564
01:39:10.700 --> 01:39:13.669
and I'm going to try to

565
01:39:14.030 --> 01:39:23.119
bring Pyotr and come into the conversation in 1 min. In 1 min, in 1,984,

566
01:39:23.270 --> 01:39:32.169
Iermo O'donnell wrote a a fascinating comparative paper between Argentinian culture and Brazilian culture.

567
01:39:32.600 --> 01:39:48.480
and the title of the document is very provocative. It's it's the title is Yamika Myer, than in Porta. That's the title of the document. And what it says, is this in social interaction? When a person, if you, if we go into the microphysics of power

568
01:39:48.610 --> 01:39:53.619
and a person is trying to show the other one that has more power and is dominant.

569
01:39:54.230 --> 01:40:07.469
The response from in in front of that provocation, in a social interaction from an Argentinian and from Brazilian, are different. The Argentinian will respond to the attack, saying, Yamika miyami.

570
01:40:07.640 --> 01:40:10.949
the Brazilian will chuck the. We are closed up.

571
01:40:11.310 --> 01:40:21.220
and the document shows how the Brazilian is the profile is more authoritarian than the Argentinians who will speak up, speak out

572
01:40:21.260 --> 01:40:22.859
so.

573
01:40:23.150 --> 01:40:24.300
a.

574
01:40:24.630 --> 01:40:32.059
I mentioned this because I explained what I believe at the roots of the Chilean

575
01:40:32.110 --> 01:40:39.050
culture of impunity. And that's my question to Camille. If she can dig deeper in the historical rules.

576
01:40:39.530 --> 01:40:47.109
And how about what happened in Poland. they would respond, you can make them in port if you don't feel value by another person

577
01:40:50.540 --> 01:40:54.220
under questions.

578
01:40:55.650 --> 01:41:10.129
I have a question that it connects to yours. And that's why I'm trying. Because probably coming, you answer, and then the others will also answer that for all members of the table.

579
01:41:10.450 --> 01:41:12.290
So A.

580
01:41:12.620 --> 01:41:17.640
I attended a couple of. I heard a colleague from pollen

581
01:41:17.830 --> 01:41:19.180
doing a

582
01:41:19.380 --> 01:41:24.280
a quite similar work on the discussion of of a combination.

583
01:41:24.450 --> 01:41:29.640
but the way he was framing. It was to

584
01:41:29.650 --> 01:41:31.840
study on

585
01:41:32.240 --> 01:41:37.730
 legal memory, so on. How?

586
01:41:39.030 --> 01:41:48.569
How? Not only in Poland, but in Eastern Europe. They were dealing with. Memories of legal consciousness.

587
01:41:48.910 --> 01:41:58.079
and they were pretty much connecting this idea of of he cognition, but to some level of legality, and how

588
01:41:58.190 --> 01:42:08.610
this was in bad. But the kind of collective memory of particular communities. and I think this somehow links to all 4 presentations on

589
01:42:08.660 --> 01:42:14.110
how moving forward and he organizing

590
01:42:14.530 --> 01:42:27.690
 elements from the past, and certain tensions regarding legality and abuse of legality by State actors.

591
01:42:27.810 --> 01:42:38.369
and he organizing as well on mis State actors like, for instance, police police is a key aspect throughout

592
01:42:38.490 --> 01:42:44.590
Latin America in the sense that they are all military-based police, which means that

593
01:42:44.860 --> 01:43:04.439
they have a very Iraqi structure that those train during dictatorship. They are still in positions of command today, you know. Like to link to Bolsonaro. all those folks that were that are, you know. Generals now, and were supporting his government like

594
01:43:04.920 --> 01:43:08.369
one year ago, and they are on trial.

595
01:43:08.450 --> 01:43:20.039
They were a military that worked with. I studied with them back in the eighties, late seventies, and were trained by people formed during the dictatorship.

596
01:43:20.280 --> 01:43:26.349
So like this, changes. Institutional changes are quite.

597
01:43:26.440 --> 01:43:39.109
It's low when you have a quite hierarchical militarized structure, that someone is trained, and then stay in positions in command and go above the Iraqi for

598
01:43:39.700 --> 01:43:46.880
35, 45 years, which is pretty much the framework we are. So my question is.

599
01:43:46.980 --> 01:43:48.090
and

600
01:43:48.110 --> 01:43:52.080
adding to what Google has

601
01:43:52.310 --> 01:43:58.320
 as to to come in, but like moving forward to the adder as well.

602
01:43:58.720 --> 01:44:03.550
How how you connect the role of of

603
01:44:03.640 --> 01:44:09.780
memory and and relative memory as a space for a cognition

604
01:44:10.090 --> 01:44:15.870
and and moving forward in a more democratic and inclusive way.

605
01:44:16.450 --> 01:44:24.590
That's a fascinating question that we have 3 min 5.

606
01:44:24.750 --> 01:44:36.459
So, women, it's not, is not a long time to dig into a history.

607
01:44:42.990 --> 01:44:48.310
so I'm not sure I could actually do it on such short notice, anyways. But,

608
01:44:49.760 --> 01:45:02.930
this is something that definitely needs to be done. and it reminds me sorry. It reminds me of an anecdote. So I went to Brazil in 2,018,

609
01:45:03.240 --> 01:45:05.450
and for a few work.

610
01:45:05.750 --> 01:45:20.840
and I would try to talk to pretty much everyone who wanted to talk to me and to ask about the the dictatorship, to ask if if they had anything to say about democracy, and the links that could be done between both.

611
01:45:21.070 --> 01:45:47.469
and people would refuse to talk like simply they would, they would, if people talked what they would say would be like, it's it's part of a dark chapter. We just want to turn the page. And, you know, just go to some other era and just forget about everything. And to me this was very like very weird, because I never thought people would be afraid to talk so is it, is it culture, is it? Is it? Authoritarian culture could be?

612
01:45:48.020 --> 01:45:55.510
so it's actually a very good question. And then the following year, when I went to Chile in 2,019, mind you.

613
01:45:55.600 --> 01:46:15.369
I asked the same questions. And people everyone wanted to talk to me from the wine producer to person who sold chocolate on this tree to just just about everyone. So it it's actually a really really great question. And it's an anecdote that I often think about when I actually work on my on my thesis, because

614
01:46:15.559 --> 01:46:16.939
I don't know the answer.

615
01:46:20.200 --> 01:46:27.840
I have a quick comment for Google. You you talk about the violence, the culture

616
01:46:27.950 --> 01:46:29.079
of violence

617
01:46:29.150 --> 01:46:33.349
of the elite, or some part of the

618
01:46:33.440 --> 01:46:34.590
the population.

619
01:46:34.680 --> 01:46:39.950
I want to to comment about the violence of the consensus

620
01:46:40.400 --> 01:46:42.809
of the elite consensus. But

621
01:46:43.379 --> 01:46:48.220
this seems to be not violent, but it's very violent, and

622
01:46:48.260 --> 01:46:50.679
my my presentation was

623
01:46:50.809 --> 01:46:55.969
this, stable democracy is is.

624
01:46:56.360 --> 01:46:59.470
it is very violent, and it

625
01:47:05.180 --> 01:47:06.260
1 min.

626
01:47:06.350 --> 01:47:13.530
One aspect of the Chilean culture is formalism. I don't know if in respective countries that happens as well.

627
01:47:13.570 --> 01:47:24.040
Law as a tool is important. Laws in my country are being sold in the streets. So if you go to Santiago in Kiosk, you will find laws

628
01:47:24.180 --> 01:47:25.879
to the public.

629
01:47:25.930 --> 01:47:33.360
Public. Notaries are essential bureaucrats, because everything has to be signed in front of a notary, a public notary.

630
01:47:33.809 --> 01:47:35.840
Yeah. And

631
01:47:35.920 --> 01:47:40.919
and and this has to do with the legality

632
01:47:42.000 --> 01:47:44.580
and to feel recognized in Chile

633
01:47:44.889 --> 01:47:49.129
more than what happens, of course, in social interaction which is relevant

634
01:47:49.260 --> 01:47:52.640
is very important to be recognized by law

635
01:47:52.860 --> 01:47:58.000
on one of the demands, for example, of indigenous peoples in Chile

636
01:47:58.170 --> 01:48:13.370
is to be recognized in the Constitution. A few years ago I compare 16 Latin American constitutions, and the the only one that didn't say anything about indigenous people was the Chinaman, and in the social explosion there was a huge demand

637
01:48:13.540 --> 01:48:15.480
coming from indigenous people

638
01:48:16.040 --> 01:48:21.169
that we could discuss if it's needed or not. But

639
01:48:21.480 --> 01:48:25.470
legality forms part of the conversation of recognition.

640
01:48:25.580 --> 01:48:26.280
Okay.

641
01:48:26.540 --> 01:48:38.040
And I agree with you. We don't have time to talk about it, but we could continue afterwards memory as a space of recognition as essential, particularly the memory of the resistance and the victims.

642
01:48:38.500 --> 01:48:39.890
You want to spend something

643
01:48:40.270 --> 01:48:59.160
I can say. I I think that memory is important, but I would rather be after a history because memory is the root of a man. discussions. So we have to to establish one narrative or narratives that are present at the same time. This is, I think, the challenge, but I would like to say that

644
01:48:59.340 --> 01:49:09.129
 in Poland, in Polish society you may feel recognized, even if you are deprived of rights, and it gives you a sense of

645
01:49:09.340 --> 01:49:10.190
pink.

646
01:49:10.200 --> 01:49:38.890
so to speak, if you are a part of a larger movement. But the problem is, and of course, this is there. There's still a problem that there are people who do not have something. There are means recognizing the terms of this theory, for example, but there are some hobbyies recognized because they are proud of the movement, like women's movements or other of other movements. L Lgbtq movements, for example, etc. So you are still okay. They don't like you. But there is still someone who likes you right? And that is okay.

647
01:49:38.890 --> 01:49:52.020
But what about those people who who are not a part of a larger movement. Right? That is a problem. I feel that they are misrecognized, and they don't find as space to be recognized, but but anyone at all.

648
01:49:52.040 --> 01:50:07.659
and that, I think, is a really problem of misrecognition, which is also a problem of this theory, because this theory, as well as real life doesn't recognize such an individual people who you can find in the larger numbers.

649
01:50:09.040 --> 01:50:13.900
So there was a last comment, where time is up. But, please.

650
01:50:19.010 --> 01:50:23.289
it's just a comment or a suggestion to deny Google.

651
01:50:23.300 --> 01:50:38.969
If you want to understand the difference in attitudes between Brazil and Spanish-speaking North American countries. Look at Portugal and look at Portuguese colonial history as strongly suggests. Well, you might have already read

652
01:50:39.190 --> 01:50:46.780
one loose of tropicalism. and how the Portuguese colonial regime

653
01:50:46.840 --> 01:50:50.000
created a system of

654
01:50:50.160 --> 01:50:55.119
of social integration and of recognition through forms of alternative

655
01:50:56.140 --> 01:51:00.380
and through, and performs of social submission, which actually.

656
01:51:00.570 --> 01:51:09.690
which actually granted a kind of symbolic legitimacy, even to those who he has an implicit position, and even romanticizes such a position.

657
01:51:10.010 --> 01:51:12.859
And if you want to understand those attitudes in Brazil.

658
01:51:12.870 --> 01:51:18.870
we get studies of anti- austerity, social movements in Portugal

659
01:51:19.070 --> 01:51:23.540
during the 2,008, 2,014

660
01:51:23.730 --> 01:51:25.380
crisis of the eurozone.

661
01:51:26.240 --> 01:51:28.499
how easily they were turned.

662
01:51:28.720 --> 01:51:32.449
and the kind of promises, or or the kind of these courses

663
01:51:32.830 --> 01:51:38.250
that were that were forced by you to people in order to

664
01:51:38.420 --> 01:51:49.540
you know, in order to promote the legitimacy of the austerity measures and how easily they were accepted. It might help you understand those cultural differences.

665
01:51:51.890 --> 01:52:21.399
So thank you very much to our panelists and our participants, and if you would like to join us tomorrow, we have another session actually organized by again my colleague, Jean, on to the civilization of what is it? Yeah, to the civilization of social problems? It's at 1030 R. C. 12. So if you want to continue discussing criminalization in another light. You're very welcome.

666
01:52:21.800 --> 01:52:24.449
So thank you. Have a nice and

WEBVTT

1
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Hello! Welcome to the session, criminalization of struggle for rights, democratic aggression

2
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and legal mobilization. obviously, before start with, most acknowledged that we are on the traditional and on suited territory of the Kulan people. As in most indigenous traditions around the world, territory land cannot be ceded.

3
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as we have in the

4
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Western Liberal Liberal capitalist framework, so it's always good to remind that, and we acknowledged that they were the the keepers of this land for generations, and you has a duty to be for for generations to come.

5
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We are both the organizers of this session, me, Jean Veloso and my colleague

6
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Mari Kristin Doha. We're both from the University of Aura, which is situated

7
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again in unseeded Agon Kane! Territory! In in Canada, my my colleague, Mary Christine, will say, Some words! About the whole design of the at the session. It's the second time organizing similar sessions in World Congress and and Forum of sociology. And the idea is to continue doing the same.

8
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Thank you so much. So Hello, everybody. Thank you for coming.

9
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So I just wanted to say a few words about our research team. It's the Observatory on violence, criminalization, and democracy.

10
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And it is an interdisciplinary team with jurists such as my colleague.

11
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political science, a professor sociologist, anthropologist. So we work all together to study the different and changing forms of criminalization and repression of the defense of rights in a broad sense, and democracy, as well as to shed light on the practices and discourses and new meanings that human rights defenders bring about. So this is like a double double, you know, goal that we have that we try to to do and to study.

12
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And our most recent findings from 6 Latin American countries show that it is the conception of democracy itself which is in dispute. Right now social movements are trying to broaden the hegemonic form of democracy, which is right now, namely, trying to exclude social conflict as being something wrong. And so we study the struggles for meaning as a conceptual tool by Laclow and Muff.

13
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That are taking place, and that explain the amplitude and ferocity in our view of the violence against right defenders and people, demonstrators engaged in different protests. So we also try to highlight the contributions from below conceptual contributions coming from the people who are fighting for

14
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their rights in Latin America. So sometimes we, we try and we discuss new concepts with all of you. We hope so. It's it's a great pleasure to be here, and of course we are very pleased to welcome 2 colleagues, Professor Rochas and Professor Akulas from Chile and Poland, I believe, correct me, and of course, the other members of the team who will present Ricardo.

15
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Camidenico Fuvel, a doctoral student at Sioux, Paris, and University of Iraq. So thank you so much for being here. And let's start the discussion.

16
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We start with the first presentation from the Academy. I feel, and I have multi-color cards to help you keep track of time.

17
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The Powerpoint. Do you know how to you click here

18
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the

19
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this year?

20
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Maybe you would rather go to the

21
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to see it better. Is it possible to

22
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the lights? Are very

23
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you?

24
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Thank you, Lloyd, the next.

25
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and we can

26
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to disrupt your presentation to take.

27
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Hmm.

28
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yes, maybe a okay.  I will say it in

29
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in Spanish, because I have a lot of things to say, and if I have to translate it from my language, it will be too long.

30
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So I it is written in in English, so you can follow

31
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the concept that I I will abort

32
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the

33
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hmm

34
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 And

35
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and better

36
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so he to your Beemoki-finamete vammucho mahaja a.

37
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thank you.

38
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Yeah.

39
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 the

40
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oh, yeah.

41
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toss and and Rabbi amente. But Awardar is the it of Casos? A the concept of a lingua politica. Look. Significantly.

42
00:09:23.270 --> 00:09:26.970
The Santiago.

43
00:11:12.110 --> 00:11:16.189
I I saw a cowbag on a.

44
00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:49.559
In general they saw nose solo bachelors, you know by pine that tambian he

45
00:13:21.310 --> 00:13:33.160
 the marriage of the oss

46
00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.270
E. No Ike Karen gayes.

47
00:14:12.940 --> 00:14:13.980
and to

48
00:14:14.020 --> 00:14:23.390
 Simira Nathemakal is all travolent, the echo pineera lis a tamosenger

49
00:14:23.410 --> 00:14:25.580
e. And

50
00:14:25.870 --> 00:14:28.010
in.

51
00:14:28.170 --> 00:14:30.809
if I said, move fossil

52
00:15:01.640 --> 00:15:19.780
 i well

53
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:35.819
dental allengua politica komo actori politico Cinderella noxistian entertainment.

54
00:17:35.820 --> 00:18:14.120
 the

55
00:18:14.270 --> 00:18:21.379
Ehlar revolution feminine yessa Lucia, the Javania, and the

56
00:20:13.170 --> 00:20:16.110
solo that I can connect to a

57
00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:39.390
mother later

58
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I have to.

59
00:21:01.150 --> 00:21:12.340
So we will wait at the end of all the presentations for the questions. Please keep your questions in mind, and it's my pleasure. This is not mine. This is not yours. This is, yeah. Okay.

60
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just a second.

61
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So it's my pleasure to present Professor Hugo Rojas Oral from a

62
00:21:23.330 --> 00:21:26.160
chile. And this

63
00:21:28.010 --> 00:21:31.239
prospective solutions to what Ricardo just presented.

64
00:21:31.270 --> 00:21:39.080
Thank you. And then you click over there. You just have to click this one. If you're going to go back to this one. Thank you.

65
00:21:39.800 --> 00:21:47.350
Hello, everyone! My name is over, Rocas and I teach sociology of law and human rights in Chile.

66
00:21:47.420 --> 00:21:53.130
I will talk today about reparation for victims of police repression

67
00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:56.750
in the 2,019 social uprising.

68
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.990
Okay?

69
00:22:01.470 --> 00:22:06.560
So I'm pleased to share with you some reflections on 4 issues

70
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:18.469
that I'm interested in developing in more depth. The first one is to analyze the acts of state repression and in particular police violence

71
00:22:18.560 --> 00:22:23.070
that constitute human rights violations during this social explosion

72
00:22:23.100 --> 00:22:28.100
between October and March, October 2,019, on March 2,020.

73
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:37.449
In the second place, I want to explain and analyze how the main state bodies in Chile have dealt with the issue of police violence.

74
00:22:37.710 --> 00:22:45.279
a third, to reflect on the practical and theoretical development regarding the comprehensive reparation of victims of human rights.

75
00:22:45.460 --> 00:22:53.970
and lastly, to formulate some proposals and recommendations to repair the damages of the victims of police repression.

76
00:22:54.530 --> 00:22:55.440
So

77
00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:02.510
Between 18 October 2,019 and 70, march 2,020.

78
00:23:03.190 --> 00:23:08.959
 What? That period, those 5 months are called the social explosion.

79
00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:17.130
In those 5 months, 8,827 people filed complaints of human rights violations.

80
00:23:17.510 --> 00:23:29.529
including 388 cases of sexual violence, and 460 cases of eye damage from pellets, tear gas canisters, or other blunt objects.

81
00:23:29.630 --> 00:23:32.340
The National Institute of Human Rights

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filed 3,151 complaints mostly for acts of torture.

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but also to legal action. In 207 cases

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of eye damage. In the first months of the protest

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the Public Public Prosecutor's office investigated 466 State agents, the vast majority of them 92% of them were Carolinos from policemen.

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272 of whom were prosecuted

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as of October 2,022. The public prosecutor's office had reported more than 300 cases pending against caravineros, officers for sexual violence.

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with only one conviction and one in the oral trial stage.

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The 3 years after the outbreak

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18 convictions have been decided by courts and 2 people serving prison sentences

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in terms of prosecution for the commission of Crimes. During the social outburst between October and January 23,000 persons were arrested.

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and pretrial detention was ordered in 1,600 cases. The Government prosecuted

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3,200 citizens for elect offenses committed during protest, including attacks on public order, arson, and attacks on members of the police and armed forces.

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as of March 2,020. The number of persons detained

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during the social unrest was 2,100.

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2 years later.

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29 of them, 29 defendants were still in pret aile detention for crimes committed during the social unrest.

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Now, more than the figures. What I'm interested in sharing with you is that more than 40 reports have been written by different agencies on these issues and at different times

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each of these data needs to be verified.

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I'm validated, and this requires an enormous effort of interinstitutional coordination between the State and civil society, and that's a pending job to do.

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For example, at the moment we do not have an accurate register of the victims of human rights violations during the outbreak.

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What has been the State's response?

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The Subcommittee on Historical Truth of the Human Rights Commission of the Constitutional Convention held more than 280 public hearings during August and September 2021,

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to hear the stories and statements of victims of human rights violations, but not only during the social explosion. but also during the dictatorship and other historical periods of the Republic of Chile.

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It is complex to address these issues in the context of a constituent process. but the material that was collected deserves to be reviewed

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and systematize more comely.

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and the Academy can contribute in this.

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in terms of the Executive the comprehensive eye repair program was created in 19, a program aimed at all users of the public or private health network that seeks to provide comprehensive care, including emergency medical care, surgical resolution of acute trauma, surgical and prosthetic rehabilitation, and medical checkups

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with cross-cutting stages of counseling and social psychological support. However.

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it does not constitute a comprehensive reparation program. As such

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the benefits have been focused on physical rehabilitation.

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It focuses on health benefits and not on reparation measures that are necessary

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psychological health care is limited

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and does not include social, economic, or legal support.

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Nor was it designed with the participation of victims, and it is in Santiago, making access difficult for people in the different regions of a long country.

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In August, the twentieth 22, the Government created the plan for the support and care of victims of eye trauma.

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which improves some of the deficiencies detected in the hero program.

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One of the criticisms of the victims is that the program only pays attention to cases of eye trauma and not to other types of damage.

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On May 2022, a year ago, President Gabriel Borich announced the comprehensive agenda for truth, justice, and reparation for human rights, violations committed in the social explosion.

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Thus the roundtable on integral or comprehensive reparation for victims of human rights violations was created whose members interview victims in the main cities of the country.

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The Executive Secretary Act unit of the Roundtable was expected to make proposals aimed at the recognition and qualification

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of the human rights violations experienced by victims.

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The report of the Secretariat was submitted in April, but it has not yet made public.

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I understand some decisions will be taken this week. In the meantime the Presidency of the Republic has been granting more than 300 pensions of grace

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for the most serious cases of several severely injured persons.

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The third topic I want to talk with you is very briefly, I don't have time to go much in this, but there are a couple of key concepts.

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The notion of victims right to reparation has been consolidated through international treaties, such as the Convention against torture and the judgments of international tribunals, such as the Inter Inter-american Court of Human Rights.

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It has become an important legal principle that reparations to victims should be proportionate to the gravity of the violations, and the harm suffer

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in order to determine who are the victims of the social outburst. It is worth considering. The concept of victim referred

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in the basic principles and guidelines on the right to a remedy and reparation for victims of gross violations of international human Rights law and serious violations of international humanitarian law

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by the UN. In 2,005, this basically says, and I'll read it. Any person who has suffered harm individually or collectively, including physical or mental injury, emotional suffering.

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economic loss, or substantial impairment of his or her fundamental rights through acts or omissions that constitute a gross violation of international human rights law, or a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

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where appropriate and in accordance with domestic law, the term victim should also include the immediate family or dependence of the direct victim, and persons who have suffered harm in intervening to assist

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victims in distress or to prevent victimization.

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Okay, go to the proposals in the rest of the time.

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I want to share some recommendations. The first one is recognition of victims. Reparations programs should consider the importance of restoring victims dignity.

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and treating them with their respect due to all human beings.

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something that has often been taken away

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from them in their experience of violence.

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and which reparations seek to redress. It is important to ensure the participation of victims in the process of formulating reparation measures, and public policies.

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The challenge of reparation policies is not simply to implement them, but to adopt measures that victims perceive as compensatory for the harm cause

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victims want to see, at the very least, that society has tried to make amends.

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It is therefore crucial that victims and civil society take an active role in the design of reparation programs and measures

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in terms of comprehensive reprations

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due to the diverse nature of the harms suffered by victims. Reparation programs and initiatives can take a wide variety of formats.

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Pablo de Greece has suggested that there are 7 main elements that can be used to analyze and evaluate the scope and success of rearation programs. And because of time limitations, I can only emphasize just one idea.

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As you know. reparations can take both a material and a symbolic form.

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I believe they work best when both types are combined.

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Symbolic reparations, such as memorials or official apologies seek to repair the moral harm, cause to victims through official acknowledgment and accountability for human rights abuses, while material reparations seek to financially compensate for the harm cause.

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Another proposal is moving towards systemic preparation.

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It is important to ensure that reparation policies are implemented alongside other elements of transitional justice.

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such as truth, memory, justice, and guarantees of non-repetition. As there is a danger that material reparations will seem empty if they are not accompanied by the pursuit of the other initiatives or elements in transitional justice, theory and practice.

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then I want to propose the creation of a Truth Commission in Chile. There are several questions that should be subject of public debate. What should the State do to know the truth about human rights violations during the social explosion?

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How should we do it? Who should do it?

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Who are the victims of human rights violations? Is justice being done regarding human rights violations? Is it possible to prove these violations, how to move forward?

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What should the State do to repair the victims. What were the damages, what measures and policies, or of reparation should be adopted? Who should determine or qualify who are victims? It seems to me

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that the current government does not have

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an appropriate methodological strategic design to face these tremendous challenges.

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I think that, deciding what the country should do to answer these questions merits Boulder.

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It is my impression that the only way to adequately answer the complex question that I just mentioned requires the creation of a new Commission, a Truth Commission to investigate what happened during the social explosion.

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This work will not succeed if it remains in the executive branch, because it requires the participation, not only of victims, but also of various political and independent sectors. Nor can it be left to the National Institute of Human Rights, because it is a reflection that exceeds the technical professional capacities of the ad agency. And lastly.

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I want to share with you that I had the privilege of sharing all these recommendations with the reparations roundtable last January, at a working meeting. I do not know yet if they have been considered, but it seems to me that an important part of academic work is to try to influence the decision making of the authorities.

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especially in the Field of human rights.

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More than published in this paper. I'm interested in contributing to a painful conversation in our society damage yesterday and today. Thank you

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absolutely.

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That's okay.

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Supposed to be.

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Yes.

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So it's my pleasure to present our next speaker, Camida Nico Favel, who is going to share her findings about Brazil.

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So thank you, Kevin.

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Hi, everyone and thank you for being here.

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I'd also like to thank our panel organizers for bringing us together today to discuss

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stimulating but also quite tragic issues.

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I'm sorry it's not working.

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Okay, thank you.

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So everyday human rights defenders are the targets of violence.

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Using the UN's definition, human rights defenders can be defined as

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individuals or groups who act to promote or protect human rights and fundamental freedoms.

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violence against human rights defenders has increased, and it is a tendency, so it is ever increasing. There was 358 human rights defenders killed in 2,021. So that's an average of about one per day. Latin America remains the most dangerous.

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the region in the world with 70% of all the killings.

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So, despite a framework protecting human rights defenders in Brazil, Brazil ranks. Third in the world regarding killings of human rights defenders

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between 2,019 and 2,022, 1,171 cases of violence have been recorded, among which 169 murders. So other violations include physical aggression, sexual harassment and aggressions, threats and criminalization.

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So who is targeted in Brazil.

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So among the 1,171 cases, the vast majority targeted land territory and environment rights defenders.

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and Brazil's actually ranked number one in the world over the last decade with 342 killings of

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activists of the land, territory and environment rights.

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So 40% of the murders targeted indigenous people. And it's it's good to remember that indigenous people only make 5% of the world population

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and 85% of the killings were in the Amazon

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 But Brazil's also a very, very dangerous place for Lgbtq activists. It represents. It's actually the top posit. So first in the world in terms of killings, 44% of the the Lgbtqi murders are in Brazil.

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So, and this is also an ever-increasing tendency.

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in 2,022. It was one murder every 32 h. And Trans women were particularly targeted.

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So just to give an idea of who these people can be. I'm sure you've heard some of you might have heard of these cases because they were highly publicized

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human rights defender, Mario Franco was so assassinated along with her driver, Anderson Gomez, 5 years ago.

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She was a Brazilian city counselor in Rio, a human rights defender as a black feminist from Mari Favela and an Lgbtq activist.

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There's still no justice, no answers regarding Mary Elli's murder.

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and it's been 5 years.

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So another case is British journalist, Don Phillips. and indigenous rights defender, Bruno Perera, who worked both killed in June 2,022.

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So the crime was likely motivated by per hour's work of denouncing illegal fishing in indigenous territory.

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So in the face of this extreme violence, the State isn't on the human rights defender's side, criminalization is also an issue. Human rights defenders face every day. So criminalization can be defined as a process in which a person is identified as a criminal or a transgressor as a consequence of their work as a human rights defender, or for their their exercise of fundamental freedom.

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with the objective to stop the work carried out by the person or their organization, and or send a message to the public about the limits to the exercise

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of their rights.

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So there are many ways to actually criminalize human rights defenders from unfounded accusations, arbitrary detention and non-aderance to do process, stigmatization of human rights, defenders by government officials or national media, misuse of legislation and employment of ambiguous legislation. So in Brazil we can think of the national security law, the new national security law, ambiguous legal concepts, such as serious threat, incitement, terrorism.

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the state of emergency to restrict the rights to assembly and association or freedom of expression

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and criminalization through the justice system on baseless accusations is a strategy. It's a strategy aimed at breaking up movements and organizations by wearing down defenders and removing them from public sphere, while in jail or preventive detention for years awaiting trial.

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So how can this violence, specifically targeting democratic actors happen within democracy?

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So Brazil is a usual scene of repression and of democratic initiatives. So last military dictatorship was an era where state violence targeted democratic movements. At first the the appearance of democracy democracy was preserved.

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there was weakened Congress and direct elections, and authorized opposition party some tolerance for opposition until 1,968.

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So in 1,968 there was the march of the 100,000. A popular demonstration against dictatorship made evidence strong that that strong Anti-government sentiments were within the population. So following this State violence increased, and there was the fifth institutional act that was adopted and resulted in the suspension of certain rights and of obvious corpus. In the expansion of Presidential power, the the temporary closure of national Congress, and in political purges.

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with no possibility of peaceful opposition. There was a radicalization of the opposition that led to the formation of the Aragua Gerala.

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from 1,968 to 1,974. Violence and repression increased to get rid of political opponents, state security forces resorted to arbitrary arrests, imprisonment, well trials, kidnapping, torture, rape castration, and extrajudicial killings.

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So under President Geisel, more moderate, who was more moderate regarding political opposition, so he was not a hardliner per se.

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There was a political plan of slow, gradual liberalization called distant

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 So during that time there was a decrease of repression, the end of the fifth institutional act. But torture and extrajudicial killings of left-wing political opponents was still ongoing.

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So in 1 78, or since the beginning of the dictatorship, really, amnesty was always one of the most recurring requests made by grassroots activists.

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It was for political prisoners and not covering State agents responsible of human rights violations

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so popular support among the the population pushed government to accept. But in 1 79, when the Government adopted a reciprocal amnesty, it was benefiting the State agents responsible for human rights violations and excluding ex-girlown members.

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So the Government guaranteed that trials and punishment of State agents responsible of human rights violations would be impossible to achieve.

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The Brazilian should

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transition accurate. In 1985 via process of negotiation and concessions military in charge of the terms of transition to civilian rules.

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it's something new, rule. Sorry

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leading to the paradoxical phenomenon of an unruttured regime change. So the result was an authoritarian, authoritarian enclaves that were perpetuated under democracy as a legacy of the military era.

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So, despite a new constitution in 1988, human rights remain theoretical for most resilience.

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and Brazil remains the country most affected by impunity in the region.

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and the government is far from proactive in establishing truth and justice.

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So just to give you an idea.

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the first justice, initiative, or truth and justice initiative happened in 1,985. But it wasn't actually actually by the State. It was members of the Church that were behind

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the the effort. So it led to an unofficial truth report documenting use of torture by the dictatorship.

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This was going to be used later on when the Cnb. Was established under Dilma Rousseff, but at the time it was strictly a church initiative.

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so we had to wait 10 years in 1,995, with the law of the disappeared to see the first truth initiative by the State. First recognition. By this it was the first recognition by the state of responsibility for human rights violations under the dictatorship.

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And it was strictly our reparations program. So no investigation, no punitive powers whatsoever.

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a second reparations program. came to be in 2,001. So it was the Amnesty Commission. Its mandate was to examine requests and grant reparations for victims of abuses that were not covered by the law of the disappeared

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again. There was no investigation into human rights crimes, no punitive powers whatsoever.

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In 2,010. The first time the amnesty law was challenged in the Court of justice was the time the Supreme Court actually had to render a decision on it. So in a decision and a 7 2 decision, the judges confirmed the validity of the amnesty law.

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Brazil was condemned twice by the Inter-american Court of Human Rights.

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for the incompatibility of the amnesty law of 1,979 with the American Convention of Human Rights. So the first time was in 2,010, a case of Gomez and all the Brazil, and the second time was in 2,018 case of Herzog, and I'll be Brazil in 2,018 the the

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Inter-american Court actually

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condemned Brazil because of the

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Supreme Court decision to validate the amnesty.

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So the National Truth Commission came to be in 2,012, under Dilma Rousseff, almost 30 years after the transition. It details human rights violations, listing both perpetrators and victims. It identified 433, 434 victims, 191 deaths, and 200 243 for its disappearances.

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The Cnv. Had no punitive powers, again, against those responsible of human rights violations, but it made a link between extreme contemporary violence and dictatorship, state agents and impunity.

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So in 2,021 there was a first condemnation. So it was highly symbolic. Carlos Alberto Augusto, who was a former police officer. Under the dictatorship was the first State agent to be convicted at the criminal level for human rights violations and political opponents string the

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Brazilian military dictatorship

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While it was highly symbolic. In 2,022 the decision was overturned, and a judge decided that the case fell under the protection of the amnesty law.

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So how does impunity, fuel, contemporary violence, and impede democracy?

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Many experts have theorized. Why impunity leads to continued violence and in peace. Democracy

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in Brazil a culture of past and present impunity, is depriving the democratic state of its rule of law undermining the power to deter the conduct law prohibits by undercutting the law's power of deterrence. Impunity allows for the continuation of a culture of violence. Despite the democratic transition.

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So Bolsonaro is actually a symbol of the failure of this, of the failure to repudiate state violence. It's a great example of the prevalence prevalence of a culture of violence in Brazil, and more specifically, of how impunity can encourage the extension beyond the transition of the social norms and values of violence as well as the social acceptance of violence.

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Thank you.

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It's going to be easier to do. The transition.

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You may upload me slides. Yeah, I will just

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here.

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Oh, that's it.

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How can I skip which one? Just this one? Okay.

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And I can take some water.

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Okay? So Novoy, I present are in Espaniol, Pero, Tampoka, and Polakko.

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Okay, thanks. Thanks for for for acceptance of this, this, this presentation.

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When I was listening to you, I I I was thinking that I should my explain myself a little bit, because it's not going to be about democratization at least

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explicitly, explicitly. It's not going to be about rights, at least explicitly, and it also is not going to be about social movements. But my presentation, as you, I hope. See. Tackles those those issues. So it's it's going to be about respect.

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And so I think that we, as sociologists sometimes should start from the very bottom to understand how this very bottom operates with the with the larger the larger system. So let's start from the bottom. Okay, so when people in my country. Respect this, by the way, I think present everywhere. So when you enter this bending, you see respect, recognition, you tackle the words recognition, and my presentation is put in the framework of recognition theory.

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which I find very apt to understand many phenomena that are happening around the world. So let's talk from the respect. Everybody wants respect, but I think not. Everybody can conceptualize to or answer the question about respect.

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So one person from my country, I'm from Poland.

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this in our situation, I think in the words system. We've talked about it before. It is a difficult question at the beginning. I think it is simple. It simply means to be a decent, well-mannered, cultural and thinking person, but also someone significant, a role model for others.

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Another person. It's a difficult question, in my opinion, to be a worthy person in general is to live in such a way as not to harm others, act ethically, help others. If someone doesn't understand something, explain it.

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And so more and more people underlines the, the, the, the the need to have health, of helping others when they think about the where fee a worthy person. So it's it's worth to keep in mind. This worthy keeping in mind is basic observations. So to give you a context of all of this of this presentation, because which we are probably not familiar with

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is that the recognition? But I I think that it it pertains also to many of your countries. By the way, the recognition has be one of the main, a access of the social and in effect, political conflict in Poland, because social conflicts are translated into political conflicts, and it really happened rarely happens on the opposite on the other way around

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groups of people. Of course there were, as in your countries, probably there. There are groups of people who are neglected, misrepresented, and deprived of access to cultural circulation, or even they weren't, they were reprive, and that, you know, as a result, they thought that they couldn't express their political opinions, which is in the context of your presentation.

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But Poland is at the same stage the same time, or was at the same time the post, common use and post state of society. I'm not going to delve deeper into that issue. But in the context of respect it is a very important fact, because we do not, as probably you in in Chile, or you in Brazil, etc. You don't have this strong bourgeoisie that they have in Australia, that they have in German, and that they have in Great Britain, etc.

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So I think that recognition plays in such societies. When, for example, in societies, when they have indigenous people, recognition plays a super special role, I would say.

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and yeah, and it is especially important in times of change. Okay? But to I think that it might interest you a little bit if you are not familiar with it, but I hope some of you do.

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it's It's a theory invented. But Axleholnet, and this is a fear of recognition that combines those many aspects of recognition that there's about on the one side, about self-confidence as a kind of recognition that we have with our significant elders. And it's about love. Love is a very important thing in life.

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a self-respect at Johnson's law, and it generally has a lot of to do with the state and self-esteem that produces or not produce solidarity, or does not produce solidarity. And it's How we relate with others in the same society. The solidarity is a big word in Polish society. By the way, you've heard about it.

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Mit, Ctl. And some time ago, okay, but what is interesting from sociological point of view, who is trying to be more critical is the, you know, the dark side of the moon right? So the the other side of the coin. So what happens if people are misrecognized, or you know they they do not. One

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 experience respect.

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So in according to a axial homage theory. In the first.

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let's say, on the First level. however, there are not levels. Okay, it. It leads to physical abuse.

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On the Second level. It leads to the deprivation of rights that I've mentioned that it's somehow it tackles to your presentation. And in this third level it leads to the contempt. Okay. And there are different forms of recognition that people may perceive in a society when they live in. And we can imagine a person who can be deprived of rights, but at the same time is

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 is a is quite prestigious, like a black man in America, for example, he can be in a set on a certain point of view and a certain he of life. Yeah, he can feel this in this ratios and things, and the fact that he's deprived of rights, and in in certain sense, but this at the same time, he he might be a very wealthy guy.

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So on the on the other. On the other hand, he he might be a professor of the University, for example. So he is a prestigious man, a prestigious person. So that's why those different 4 different forms of recognition

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should be keep kept in mind. But it's good to separate them. So to keep at least to keep them together. Okay, that people experience different forms of recognition because I do not have time. But I would like what? But it's very important. There was a discussion between Axel Honn and and Nancy Fraser, by the way, they are from the same school about their distribution and recognition, in other words, between the status on culture and and economy what is really important and what place

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a a huge role when we talk about recognition. I'm not going to talk about that because we are a lot I am. We are sure of time, and I have only a few minutes left. Okay, but it's it's good to keep in my cultural boundaries, especially in our communities, especially in communities that are very diverse.

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Okay, I'm just also going to talk about my meetings. But there, there were, or very briefly. I I do that very briefly. I I have data from 2 surveys on representative sample of police society that were done into consecutive years in 2,020 and 2,021,

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by the way, 2,020 it was in the autumn was just very important, because there was a huge protest of women against the new law that was imposed by the our Government

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on abortion. What is this really interesting? And it's worth keeping in mind, but also data that I think are more important. But of course it's a kind of a mixed method analysis that are gathered through in-depth interviews. So how people, you know to just to get a deeper understanding what people understand, what they they can say when they is that I got gathered through surveys

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and the main, of course I can. Because is that what I'm going to do? Here is a part of a larger product. In fact, I'm writing. I'm trying to write a book about that. So I'm going to present only a few excerpts for for this from this research, and I concentrate on 2 things.

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Firstly, I would like to show you how people understand the wealthy person, then that that why it is impossible that they respect or recognize everyone, and, in fact, in as a result, what and in in in the last part of my presentation, I will try to show you what happens when when they are unrecognized.

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 okay, so let's start from the general survey made by the Polish one of the Polish institutions that people generally feel respected for 7 min. Okay, so I'm in the middle.

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the people generally feel respected. They enjoy, let's say, medium prestige. So it's not bad. So it's not bad.

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When I asked my respondents in those representative survey about why they respect people. Most of them said that they respect people for attitudes

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Towards others and the and the word. And it simply means what kind of people they are. So it's a very idealistic response. I would say, right to respect people for who they are

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and also for qualification and skills. So they don't. You know, they do not respect people because they are professors, because they are wealthy, etc., but because they are normal people who deserve they respect. It's it's okay. So it'll be all fine.

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it'll be on fine. So it's the same story.

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Oh.

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these are the answers they give in those in-depth interviews. I'm not going to read them, of course.

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 And, by the way, it's quite important in observation that people, when asked about values that are important in their life. Only 1% of them

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told that. I said that

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That respect is really important, but they change the opinion we can say when they, when they are asked

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about about about their political attitudes, so to speak. Okay, from my research just to to, to, to, to, to the very call, the presentation. When people are asked about who they think is unfairly.

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who our experience are, and who is denied respect in contemporary Polish society.

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Like almost 30%. People said that minorities of a different kind, sexual, racial, national, etc.

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And and the other group we did was one group, and this group is those that is constituted by those who are better off, by those who live in big cities, by those who have better education, by those who are young. And there was the other group who who who told that

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there is the other group who is disrespected in Poland, due to the education due to the unemployment due to a material status that leads me to the conclusion that leads me to the conclusion.

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and that there are 2, in my opinion, 2 main recognition gaps in Polish society, that when one pertain to the minorities, and the other to the lowest segments of the middle class, or to popular classes, so to speak, working or urban working classes, one

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that feel that feel disrespect from elites mainly, and I name them. They denigrate it after they access this, the axle on that stand by by by the way, they feel denigrated. So they are denigrated in a way, but they are disrespected.

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For 2 different reasons. What is what is quite interesting for the last, I would say sentence of this presentation.

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because the first refers to this feel of the self-respect resulting in deprivation of rights, I mean minorities, or those people who are the part of minorities feel that they are disrespectful because they do not have a set on certain rights that protect them, and the other form of a misrecognition, so to speak, is because people feel that they are disregarded, due to the situation. So it's more about esteem. Okay?

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And those 2 logics of recognition. And this is the the the the point of this presentation that might maybe interest you

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about that, though this is a source of conflict and tensions, because

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 Because these tensions are exploited by by the Government, who, of course, address policies to underline the importance of The importance of ordinary men and women in working class, but they do something more. They present this respect as a kind of zero-sum game, that it means that

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you have this your respect because because you you are, you are not respected because someone let's say took your respect from you. But when when we take into account that those 2 different

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kinds of misrecognition operates on a different level. We cannot say so right? Because there are different different kinds of

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recognition.

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Okay,

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So what is very interesting? The last point, what is very interesting, that people, when they are asked about respect and recognition, of course everybody underlines the importance of respect. But, in fact, when we delve in deeper into the experiences, everybody at the same time experience a disrespect from one kind of the other, and I think that this one kind of the other can be named as mainly as a

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as a disrespect due to the deprivation of rights of this respect due to the deprivation of the lack of solidarity, and these tensions are, of course, exploited all the time, and there is no force, I would say, that can somehow stop it in Poland. Thanks.

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and do move forward to our lest

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presentation that is pre recorded

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so as a surprise. You never know it's like 5 min or 20 min, or half an hour.

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 and

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3.

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I don't know if it's a Powerpoint with a audio, or

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yes, it should be

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no

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order.

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Let me check. If the person is online.

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the

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not

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is

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I don't see the zoom either

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something to

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 she's

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yeah, so while we try to solve the technical problems. We

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we'll start with questions and comments

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and make some coming.

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Maybe we need the mic.

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So all presenters you can move to the front. We're still waiting for the the presentation from Brazil. So we thought we would start the discussion, invite everybody to. Yeah, it's a long flight. It is

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absolutely so

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the

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you can make the comment, yes, I will handle the computer. Okay, good. Good. Good. Thank you. So. thank you for your attention. As you saw, we have quite a broad comparative perspective.

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and what is interesting for us is that when we got the grant from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

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Mexico, Chile, and Columbia were all right-wing countries with right-wing governments, and during the course of the research project they all elected leftist government of different types, of course, because

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we all know that well, typically Mexico is a Leftist Populist government, whereas Borix's government in Chile and Petro's Government and Columbia are very different and more based on social movements. We can have a discussion, Ricardo, about that after. But nevertheless, it's very interesting for us and for you. I hope

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to see how criminalization continues to go on or is changing, or what's happening. And this is what

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our presentations were also about. There is evidence that criminalisation is still going on, even though these progressive governments in these 3 countries are there? So what kind?

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Okay, so what kind of repression? What kind of prospective solutions, as Professor Rojas told us, are going on. So it's a mixed balance of

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progress and things that are still yet to be, or changes that are still yet to be made, and perhaps In in a light of the recognition theory that Professor Kulas presented us with. So I just wanted to say that it's it's a

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we know social sciences are constantly, ever constantly changing. But this is a very, very specific situation where we have to measure the progress that has been made in the course of like 3, 4 years. And it's very interesting to be presenting these results and discussing them with you. So is the presentation ready now?

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No, no, no. And the person is not online. Okay, so it's a good news.

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It's very. It's very late. Yes, the presentation is not there. The person is not there. Well.

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we have more time for discussion. We have more time for discussion. So. maybe I can go around it the microphone, if anybody would like to.

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So if you'd like to just go to the mic. Yes, because the the session is being headquartered. Oh, yes.

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I am going to give you a presentation about them. It the same amount of

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I was visualization for South Korean Peace

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and Korea's South Korea standard, the military decayership. Over 3 decades we moved the transition to democracy or Mp. From 1,987,

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and I'm listening to your presentation.

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The same thing happened in Korea in the past, and now is undergoing.

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I don't know if you know. Last year we left

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home. Of what's to the General

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into present.

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He actually prosecuted 2 former. I'm sorry with you, please. Then

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into prison.

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Now the

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constructive party just pick up him

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as the their candidate. and they just to

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one of the elections. Now the the control to party day or in

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power

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after immigration, he. the dinner tried to govern South Korea. He tried to just prosecute

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in your term it's criminalizing, or that ocean movement sectors

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the opposition party

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I'm 31 in captures.

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So I think the criminalization. of course, in South Korea I come to you like that. And after Democratization and South Korea come join some

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advanced country's club. I think we just get out of the trip

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from from military to gifts to Democrats and river in globalization. And now, with 3 times of government. I think we just overcome the

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I'm going over there. So my occasion is this. you are talking about some link between the impunity

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from the former dictators, and over that.

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and this is

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 In Korea the same, we are still divided. We are confront with North Korea.

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so even the Conservatives are killed. The former present man, J. As a Communist in South Korea.

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just a kind of a

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so, the kind of a harsh confrontation still reduced.

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So, even though the transition to democracy. We just prosecuted a former

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3 dictators

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that just pattern. Just a couple of months later, even the democratically elected President did not have some power-based

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negotiation.

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So almost the same. We have also the close commission

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on this little.

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So What I try to escape all of you is, is

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the link between.

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So it's going to a path and criminalization. And I want to ask you who really is the the institution for the

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2

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exercising working power behind the scene.

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Thank you so much. Maybe we can take a few more questions.

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and I have a question for Pietrangelo.

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So trust is more error of curiosity. Did you find the concept of dignity as well being relevant in your research, especially considering these different social movements like in Chile Brazil, that we have talked.

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Dignity has become this call for recognition, but also for action and the of distributed justice, but also other kinds of justice. So I want to know if maybe you found that also in your research, and how that would be different from respect if you did.

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The other question quick question is, how a generalizable do you think your findings are? A of course the surveys about Poland? But there is this component that we feel that maybe this, Issue of recognition is also general for all the societies. What would be the limitations on the reach of of the yeah. How do you know? I suppose this could be or not. Thank you.

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And the last question.

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yeah, good afternoon. I thank you for your presentations. My name is Camilla Tomato. I'm Colombian working in a English University University of Huddersfield.

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and I have a question for Hugo Rochas, Professor of G. Rojas. I would like to know your reflections or your theories regarding why the police

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in Chile are targeting the eyes of the demonstrators. And how do you think this action of punishment is related to the criminalization of activists and civilians in Chile. I just want to know if you have explore this kind of anthropological or symbolic dimension of that action of 100

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of targeting the eyes. Because I have been doing some research in Colombia that, you know, is similar to that kind of particular police brutality action. So I just want to know your perceptions of of that. And the second question is for Professor Col. As well from a Poland. I would like to know if you have any kind of affections about the emotional construction of recognition, and in the case of of Poland, and how that a

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they mentioned emotional dimension of recognition is or is not part of you a research, because, as you know, one of the important dimensions of recognition is how you can feel recognized by the and how that global dynamic of be recognized and recognition can change different kind of perceptions. So I want to know, you have explored this kind of emotional connections in your researching poem, and thank you so much for your presentation. Thank you.

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So who wants to step in? And I still have the cards if you take a a lot of time, if I may say so. I think maybe you were not present. But Professor Pennyfell also talked about the ocular lesions. So maybe if you want to answer to, just put a word in, it would be this well, the anthropological dimension. Thank you. So the the table is your all yours.

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They're all very interesting questions to talk about impunity, dignity, recognition. So I'll just start with a very

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a specific question, but I'm sure later on in the conversation, I'm going to move to the other topics.

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what happened in with the police in Chile?

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The police was created in 1,927,

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and it's a very militarized police. It doesn't form.

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The caravaners do not form part of the armed forces, but are closely related.

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and in Chile we talk about the armed forces and security and other services.

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That being said is just to try to help you with some comparison.

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Chile's police is

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very similar to the armed forces. That's something that you

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can consider a a feature that distinguishes the Chilean police from probably other police. That's the first idea, the second.

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I

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 scholars, we have to do some self-criticism because we did not pay attention to the police during that transition to democracy

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and social scientists were more interested in other topics, for example, reduction of poverty

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and inequality that the transitional justice

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and

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and we didn't pay attention to what was happening in the education of the police

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and also in the control mechanisms and accountability and transparency of the police.

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So

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these bullets they shot to the people in in 2,019.

423
01:21:00.370 --> 01:21:01.930
It wasn't new.

424
01:21:02.260 --> 01:21:08.580
They had for at least 18 years had black technology, unfortunately.

425
01:21:08.890 --> 01:21:14.150
and short eyes of people previously.

426
01:21:14.210 --> 01:21:16.980
if there were exceptional cases.

427
01:21:17.320 --> 01:21:18.290
But

428
01:21:18.850 --> 01:21:29.190
civilians did not look at those cases, and we didn't control the police. So I am making a very strong criticism of the lack of dialogue

429
01:21:29.210 --> 01:21:33.129
between social scientists and the police in Chile

430
01:21:33.890 --> 01:21:34.920
in.

431
01:21:39.100 --> 01:21:44.040
and I also have to mention that the politicians didn't want to bother with the police.

432
01:21:45.360 --> 01:21:51.219
3 days after the explosion happened in October the eighteenth, 2,019,

433
01:21:52.570 --> 01:21:55.870
a doctor in a Southern town in Chile.

434
01:21:56.060 --> 01:22:00.919
It an X-ray to a person who had a bullet in the in the head.

435
01:22:01.310 --> 01:22:06.999
and he realized it wasn't a rubber. It was a

436
01:22:07.070 --> 01:22:08.570
a

437
01:22:09.860 --> 01:22:11.010
with metal.

438
01:22:11.490 --> 01:22:16.289
and he with the X-ray. He sent immediately and report, and denounced

439
01:22:16.810 --> 01:22:24.250
the ballots that the police were using, and the of Tammologist Association also denounced publicly.

440
01:22:24.670 --> 01:22:39.879
and the politicians and the government. The government. I did not stop this from happening that can. Also, I am trying to make another argument is how much political power the police has in Chile compare

441
01:22:39.950 --> 01:22:42.100
to other countries. So

442
01:22:42.940 --> 01:22:55.199
now that we are in a constituent process, in the first wave of the discussion, in 2,021, 2,022. One of the demands presented was to re-found the police.

443
01:22:56.190 --> 01:22:59.900
 That well.

444
01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:11.650
1 min left but that narrative to refine. We found the the police

445
01:23:12.540 --> 01:23:19.970
wasn't approved by the majority of the society, and now they're going back. Another factor. I have to tell you

446
01:23:20.090 --> 01:23:25.499
the most popular organization. The most respectful

447
01:23:25.820 --> 01:23:29.559
organization in Chile in the transition is the police

448
01:23:30.040 --> 01:23:35.750
more than the Catholic Church or the 5 men or anybody? Is the police.

449
01:23:36.180 --> 01:23:38.529
brilliant Lapole police.

450
01:23:38.730 --> 01:23:41.139
and even now, for years

451
01:23:41.210 --> 01:23:45.489
they trust the police, the most trust institution in the country

452
01:23:45.710 --> 01:24:00.569
by far. And now they were attacked in 2,019. But now they're getting their prestige back. So they be very popular right now, and the society is just supporting the police, forgetting what happened in 2,019. Okay, so

453
01:24:01.810 --> 01:24:04.820
I hope this helps. you know. There you

454
01:24:08.450 --> 01:24:10.370
for the first

455
01:24:10.520 --> 01:24:14.720
commentary or question. I think the problem is the State.

456
01:24:14.730 --> 01:24:21.080
That's when we do a comparative analysis.

457
01:24:21.430 --> 01:24:26.420
you have criminalization in every State.

458
01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:35.430
And the other problem is what we call representative government, that others call democratic governments.

459
01:24:35.470 --> 01:24:40.749
They they they're supposed to be represented tattoo, but they are not.

460
01:24:40.890 --> 01:24:55.559
their delegative governments, and they they think that they, because they were elected. They have all the power, the the decision, and the sovereignty of

461
01:24:55.690 --> 01:25:00.150
for over the population and the decision.

462
01:25:00.330 --> 01:25:09.170
So when people contest this monopoly of the decision of sovereignty. They they attack

463
01:25:09.940 --> 01:25:21.270
sometimes more, sometime less. But yesterday we were with the What was the name of the

464
01:25:21.480 --> 01:25:23.840
what? What?

465
01:25:23.990 --> 01:25:36.249
And you said, it's the same in Australia. And if we if we do a an analysis of Canada, we will have to those kind of criminalization. So

466
01:25:36.370 --> 01:25:41.159
the problem is the state and the the fact that these states

467
01:25:41.280 --> 01:25:45.680
it's supposed to be democratic, but it denies the

468
01:25:46.480 --> 01:25:54.470
right of opposition. This is the the main problem with criminalization. And this

469
01:25:55.460 --> 01:25:58.169
I would like to

470
01:25:58.480 --> 01:26:01.590
to ask a question about

471
01:26:01.730 --> 01:26:10.069
material recognition, because when I read it I read it as a Marxist as a

472
01:26:10.100 --> 01:26:12.590
in

473
01:26:13.030 --> 01:26:16.020
a critical theory.

474
01:26:16.100 --> 01:26:21.420
and I wrote it as a proposition for

475
01:26:21.620 --> 01:26:28.259
alienate alienation theory. And there was, I don't know. How do you say in

476
01:26:28.450 --> 01:26:30.400
in the

477
01:26:30.440 --> 01:26:40.579
the society of Miss. and this is what we have

478
01:26:40.780 --> 01:26:44.299
in Chile is

479
01:26:44.590 --> 01:26:47.529
may be denied of recognition.

480
01:26:47.780 --> 01:26:49.890
And and this

481
01:26:50.310 --> 01:26:56.120
This is the the main problem that we cannot go.

482
01:26:56.140 --> 01:27:03.979
We cannot have a real democratic society if you don't recognize the right.

483
01:27:04.070 --> 01:27:10.900
A position and dignity is is one of the main

484
01:27:11.270 --> 01:27:13.100
symbols

485
01:27:13.250 --> 01:27:18.889
of every movement uprising that that we analyzed.

486
01:27:24.830 --> 01:27:34.350
Okay? Bye, bye, before I start, I have a question to the if I can, I can I? Can I? Can I, if I pronounce it correctly

487
01:27:34.400 --> 01:27:41.110
about, how would you comment this this situation lately? These uprisings, let's say in Brazil

488
01:27:41.110 --> 01:28:06.110
that happened after Lula was elected as a president. I mean you so, so, so sorry. This is because it's too much stress here. That's why. So for coming about, how do you? How would you command this? Because you end it with Bolsonaro? Right? And how do you command the command on this situation with when I was elected, and Bol. Scenario was in in the United

489
01:28:06.110 --> 01:28:09.669
States, in fact, and there was an uprising, a kind of

490
01:28:09.760 --> 01:28:18.179
Ok, so in the vein of your presentation. But going back to the question.

491
01:28:18.250 --> 01:28:23.840
I think that dignity is, namely, another term for respect, so to speak.

492
01:28:23.890 --> 01:28:43.020
that we can use them in E in in exchangeably. in a sense. I think that we need a good theory to know what is going about in a society. That's why I've decided to use this recognition theory by Axel Hannett. Firstly, because it's the only recognition theory that we have.

493
01:28:43.390 --> 01:28:48.120
Of course, it's not perfect theory, and it lacks many

494
01:28:48.170 --> 01:29:03.780
in many aspects. And so I'm I I I even want to later in at the end tell something about the aspect because it was it was. It was your I I think, question less. The last question.

495
01:29:03.780 --> 01:29:28.999
Okay, so the dignity is just another name. I my presentation or my thinking about it. It's more than presentation. It's rooted deeply into Max Weber theory of honour. And he's thinking about the society because we all know a sociologist that we are divided, and so society. But we have to adopt the certain theory of so of of div division, and I adopted the the of the Max Weber

496
01:29:29.030 --> 01:29:51.499
it. it is convenience. By the way, what what Nancy Fraser has to say about it, and that the First division is about class, of course, how we differ economically, which is very important. But the second division is about status that we, as a members of a different group, have different status. And we appreciated of this this status right? And

497
01:29:51.500 --> 01:29:59.150
because of our cultural, our way of life, how we speak, how we talk, what how we were okay. And this is really important. So dignity

498
01:29:59.150 --> 01:30:15.990
it it might be as a a very good term to underline the moral aspect of respect or recognition, but it wasn't operationalized enough enough to to use it. Of course, I think that is a synonym just to just to end the in the

499
01:30:16.360 --> 01:30:37.670
to talking that I operation operationalized. My, it was the the second part of your question, my, my, my my whole research based on Axel home a theory, but keeping in mind that there is distension between recognition, and there is a distribution that is very important. I think that Nancy Fraser really asks her

500
01:30:37.850 --> 01:30:59.489
such a huge question when recognition supports recognition, and when it is more likely to undermine it. It is very crucial question, because she even offers a kind of a matrix right, the metrics in which you can put a certain person when he or she is

501
01:30:59.960 --> 01:31:12.109
in terms of recognition and in terms of redistribution, and it happens that people can have a very high rate of redistribution. Right? They may be like this man

502
01:31:12.110 --> 01:31:30.470
from my presentation from the United States, but a very low rate in terms of recognition and in different types of society. It happens differently, I would say. That's why it's worth to observe that. But it's also, I think, that the operationalization of this research

503
01:31:30.590 --> 01:31:55.319
in many parts can be duplic, that you, you know you can. You can. you can use it many times. And by the way, I refer, okay, you have for 1 min. I I refer to the to the, to the, to the work of Michel Lamont. She did it, of course, on many occasions, asking about my in cultural boundaries, asking about respect in different countries in Brazil, by the way.

504
01:31:55.330 --> 01:31:59.230
in in Israel and in the United States.

505
01:31:59.300 --> 01:32:16.989
Okay? And the last. Okay, the first 30 min. The recognition theory was also, and it is very important for this panel, and I couldn't say that I I cannot be happier to be here because I have my 2 Phd. Students who does the the who do they research? One in Mexico.

506
01:32:17.110 --> 01:32:22.120
so to speak, and the other one in Uruguay. And

507
01:32:22.490 --> 01:32:30.529
I think the recognition theory, of course, has many falls, and the first one is the question of power.

508
01:32:30.550 --> 01:32:52.680
Okay, the question of power. The second the the second falls is the I'm stopping here. The second falls is the question of class. Okay, that those theoretical theurities, so especially actually on that they sometimes forget about the aspect of class that people not only want to be recognized, but sometimes have to eat something

509
01:32:55.930 --> 01:32:56.720
I mean.

510
01:32:57.820 --> 01:33:07.280
 thank you. So I'm going to answer the 2 questions.

511
01:33:07.420 --> 01:33:09.700
the question about Korea.

512
01:33:10.090 --> 01:33:11.920
So

513
01:33:12.160 --> 01:33:21.270
in my opinion, due to the fact that and criminalization happens pretty much everywhere, and it's quite systematic, as Ricardo mentioned.

514
01:33:21.550 --> 01:33:25.079
I'm not sure that we can.

515
01:33:25.420 --> 01:33:29.360
Hello.

516
01:33:30.420 --> 01:33:47.639
So I'm not sure it's really a matter of who exercises power behind the scenes, but rather because criminalization is quite systematic and happens everywhere in the world there are pretty much 2 things that I would consider important.

517
01:33:47.780 --> 01:33:54.500
so impunity as we, because that was the main focus of your question.

518
01:33:54.510 --> 01:34:00.010
impedes repudiation of past, the dictatorial violence. Right?

519
01:34:00.210 --> 01:34:04.409
and this is dangerous regarding non-reportation of crimes.

520
01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:13.619
 this also leads to criminal criminalization also happening due to the fact. Security forces.

521
01:34:14.270 --> 01:34:16.650
and police

522
01:34:16.890 --> 01:34:25.160
included, defend a model of democracy based on a social order. Human rights defenders are actually contesting.

523
01:34:25.810 --> 01:34:35.779
So in my opinion it's not a matter of who isn't controlled behind the scenes, but as of a system. Ricardo mentioned the state system. State to me. They are like synonyms here.

524
01:34:35.980 --> 01:34:43.829
 so a system trying to preserve a social order that is in part dictatorial legacy.

525
01:34:43.960 --> 01:34:45.490
a violence.

526
01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:50.080
and it is difficult to question practices of violence of the past

527
01:34:50.310 --> 01:34:51.389
due to that

528
01:34:51.950 --> 01:35:07.969
And your question regarding Glolsonaro, I would say that Bol Snar is unabashed. authoritarian discourse and its reception within society can be explained by impunity, in part because there was no repudiation of violence

529
01:35:08.740 --> 01:35:12.830
within society, and the norms of violence are still seen as acceptable.

530
01:35:12.950 --> 01:35:32.300
and an important segment of the population with fake news also. and the fact that there's no repudiation of the dictatorial violence. A large segment of the population turns to demand a military dictatorship. which you don't really see as as much in other countries.

531
01:35:32.630 --> 01:35:33.770
So yeah.

532
01:35:43.590 --> 01:35:45.570
yes, yes.

533
01:35:48.290 --> 01:35:56.810
Other questions as you have time for some another round of questions. We always have questions, but we we hold them.

534
01:35:57.280 --> 01:35:58.140
Yeah.

535
01:35:58.330 --> 01:36:01.589
yeah, you get the the mic, please.

536
01:36:06.200 --> 01:36:08.959
I can. I can give you more minutes. Okay?

537
01:36:08.980 --> 01:36:10.020
So

538
01:36:10.800 --> 01:36:15.440
I think the main goal that we are all facing here in this panel is

539
01:36:15.510 --> 01:36:23.980
how we move forward to a democratic culture having a human having human rights in the common sense of all citizens.

540
01:36:24.290 --> 01:36:35.330
and I believe there are profound groups in the culture of impunity and authoritarianism in these different countries, including South Korea.

541
01:36:35.390 --> 01:36:39.380
It is very, very difficult to change the culture

542
01:36:39.580 --> 01:36:41.609
of an authoritarian

543
01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:44.590
group or sector

544
01:36:44.860 --> 01:36:56.560
in Chile. An explanation requires a panoramic view of 200 years of republic. but empirically has been demonstrated by Elisabeth Lyra and Brian Loffman

545
01:36:56.580 --> 01:37:01.449
that every time we had a violent conflict in our in our country.

546
01:37:01.640 --> 01:37:04.810
The way the State responded was similar.

547
01:37:06.010 --> 01:37:14.709
approving amnesties, trying to forget, avoiding taking the cases, to court, putting pressure on judges.

548
01:37:15.280 --> 01:37:21.949
and pretending that we could forget and and erased the past.

549
01:37:22.920 --> 01:37:29.229
So the cop of the Chilean Government historically approved amnesty laws and cynically, cynically gave pardons

550
01:37:29.590 --> 01:37:35.719
for getting the events. Now because of the magnitude of the cross human rights violations that occurred

551
01:37:35.770 --> 01:37:38.020
during Pinocchet's dictatorship.

552
01:37:38.580 --> 01:37:47.309
This was the first time we we are trying, and we still are, after 30 years of transition to democracy

553
01:37:47.820 --> 01:37:51.250
to confront the atrocities.

554
01:37:53.010 --> 01:38:08.400
So part of that. My comment is that to understand the culture of impunity you have to dig in the the historical, profound roots of the culture of our society and intervene. And it's hard to intervene that culture.

555
01:38:08.550 --> 01:38:15.429
We also don't can forget that we have to deal with 2 very peculiar groups.

556
01:38:15.570 --> 01:38:20.020
they indifferent to human rights relations and the ambivalent

557
01:38:20.310 --> 01:38:29.689
to human rights. These are people who do not support a democratic culture.

558
01:38:29.720 --> 01:38:32.279
have other priorities in life

559
01:38:32.780 --> 01:38:39.160
that do not care. We have surveys on this do not care if we have a rule of law.

560
01:38:39.180 --> 01:38:52.120
For example, last month there was a survey in Chile that showed that 38% of adult Chileans believed that the cooped tat the pinochet did 50 years ago was correct.

561
01:38:52.410 --> 01:38:55.439
and that survey was just a mythical.

562
01:38:56.150 --> 01:39:03.539
Another challenge is to engage these people who do not give importance to human rights

563
01:39:03.580 --> 01:39:10.670
and and and democracy. I truly believe it is relevant to understand better the culture of the society.

564
01:39:10.700 --> 01:39:13.669
and I'm going to try to

565
01:39:14.030 --> 01:39:23.119
bring Pyotr and come into the conversation in 1 min. In 1 min, in 1,984,

566
01:39:23.270 --> 01:39:32.169
Iermo O'donnell wrote a a fascinating comparative paper between Argentinian culture and Brazilian culture.

567
01:39:32.600 --> 01:39:48.480
and the title of the document is very provocative. It's it's the title is Yamika Myer, than in Porta. That's the title of the document. And what it says, is this in social interaction? When a person, if you, if we go into the microphysics of power

568
01:39:48.610 --> 01:39:53.619
and a person is trying to show the other one that has more power and is dominant.

569
01:39:54.230 --> 01:40:07.469
The response from in in front of that provocation, in a social interaction from an Argentinian and from Brazilian, are different. The Argentinian will respond to the attack, saying, Yamika miyami.

570
01:40:07.640 --> 01:40:10.949
the Brazilian will chuck the. We are closed up.

571
01:40:11.310 --> 01:40:21.220
and the document shows how the Brazilian is the profile is more authoritarian than the Argentinians who will speak up, speak out

572
01:40:21.260 --> 01:40:22.859
so.

573
01:40:23.150 --> 01:40:24.300
a.

574
01:40:24.630 --> 01:40:32.059
I mentioned this because I explained what I believe at the roots of the Chilean

575
01:40:32.110 --> 01:40:39.050
culture of impunity. And that's my question to Camille. If she can dig deeper in the historical rules.

576
01:40:39.530 --> 01:40:47.109
And how about what happened in Poland. they would respond, you can make them in port if you don't feel value by another person

577
01:40:50.540 --> 01:40:54.220
under questions.

578
01:40:55.650 --> 01:41:10.129
I have a question that it connects to yours. And that's why I'm trying. Because probably coming, you answer, and then the others will also answer that for all members of the table.

579
01:41:10.450 --> 01:41:12.290
So A.

580
01:41:12.620 --> 01:41:17.640
I attended a couple of. I heard a colleague from pollen

581
01:41:17.830 --> 01:41:19.180
doing a

582
01:41:19.380 --> 01:41:24.280
a quite similar work on the discussion of of a combination.

583
01:41:24.450 --> 01:41:29.640
but the way he was framing. It was to

584
01:41:29.650 --> 01:41:31.840
study on

585
01:41:32.240 --> 01:41:37.730
 legal memory, so on. How?

586
01:41:39.030 --> 01:41:48.569
How? Not only in Poland, but in Eastern Europe. They were dealing with. Memories of legal consciousness.

587
01:41:48.910 --> 01:41:58.079
and they were pretty much connecting this idea of of he cognition, but to some level of legality, and how

588
01:41:58.190 --> 01:42:08.610
this was in bad. But the kind of collective memory of particular communities. and I think this somehow links to all 4 presentations on

589
01:42:08.660 --> 01:42:14.110
how moving forward and he organizing

590
01:42:14.530 --> 01:42:27.690
 elements from the past, and certain tensions regarding legality and abuse of legality by State actors.

591
01:42:27.810 --> 01:42:38.369
and he organizing as well on mis State actors like, for instance, police police is a key aspect throughout

592
01:42:38.490 --> 01:42:44.590
Latin America in the sense that they are all military-based police, which means that

593
01:42:44.860 --> 01:43:04.439
they have a very Iraqi structure that those train during dictatorship. They are still in positions of command today, you know. Like to link to Bolsonaro. all those folks that were that are, you know. Generals now, and were supporting his government like

594
01:43:04.920 --> 01:43:08.369
one year ago, and they are on trial.

595
01:43:08.450 --> 01:43:20.039
They were a military that worked with. I studied with them back in the eighties, late seventies, and were trained by people formed during the dictatorship.

596
01:43:20.280 --> 01:43:26.349
So like this, changes. Institutional changes are quite.

597
01:43:26.440 --> 01:43:39.109
It's low when you have a quite hierarchical militarized structure, that someone is trained, and then stay in positions in command and go above the Iraqi for

598
01:43:39.700 --> 01:43:46.880
35, 45 years, which is pretty much the framework we are. So my question is.

599
01:43:46.980 --> 01:43:48.090
and

600
01:43:48.110 --> 01:43:52.080
adding to what Google has

601
01:43:52.310 --> 01:43:58.320
 as to to come in, but like moving forward to the adder as well.

602
01:43:58.720 --> 01:44:03.550
How how you connect the role of of

603
01:44:03.640 --> 01:44:09.780
memory and and relative memory as a space for a cognition

604
01:44:10.090 --> 01:44:15.870
and and moving forward in a more democratic and inclusive way.

605
01:44:16.450 --> 01:44:24.590
That's a fascinating question that we have 3 min 5.

606
01:44:24.750 --> 01:44:36.459
So, women, it's not, is not a long time to dig into a history.

607
01:44:42.990 --> 01:44:48.310
so I'm not sure I could actually do it on such short notice, anyways. But,

608
01:44:49.760 --> 01:45:02.930
this is something that definitely needs to be done. and it reminds me sorry. It reminds me of an anecdote. So I went to Brazil in 2,018,

609
01:45:03.240 --> 01:45:05.450
and for a few work.

610
01:45:05.750 --> 01:45:20.840
and I would try to talk to pretty much everyone who wanted to talk to me and to ask about the the dictatorship, to ask if if they had anything to say about democracy, and the links that could be done between both.

611
01:45:21.070 --> 01:45:47.469
and people would refuse to talk like simply they would, they would, if people talked what they would say would be like, it's it's part of a dark chapter. We just want to turn the page. And, you know, just go to some other era and just forget about everything. And to me this was very like very weird, because I never thought people would be afraid to talk so is it, is it culture, is it? Is it? Authoritarian culture could be?

612
01:45:48.020 --> 01:45:55.510
so it's actually a very good question. And then the following year, when I went to Chile in 2,019, mind you.

613
01:45:55.600 --> 01:46:15.369
I asked the same questions. And people everyone wanted to talk to me from the wine producer to person who sold chocolate on this tree to just just about everyone. So it it's actually a really really great question. And it's an anecdote that I often think about when I actually work on my on my thesis, because

614
01:46:15.559 --> 01:46:16.939
I don't know the answer.

615
01:46:20.200 --> 01:46:27.840
I have a quick comment for Google. You you talk about the violence, the culture

616
01:46:27.950 --> 01:46:29.079
of violence

617
01:46:29.150 --> 01:46:33.349
of the elite, or some part of the

618
01:46:33.440 --> 01:46:34.590
the population.

619
01:46:34.680 --> 01:46:39.950
I want to to comment about the violence of the consensus

620
01:46:40.400 --> 01:46:42.809
of the elite consensus. But

621
01:46:43.379 --> 01:46:48.220
this seems to be not violent, but it's very violent, and

622
01:46:48.260 --> 01:46:50.679
my my presentation was

623
01:46:50.809 --> 01:46:55.969
this, stable democracy is is.

624
01:46:56.360 --> 01:46:59.470
it is very violent, and it

625
01:47:05.180 --> 01:47:06.260
1 min.

626
01:47:06.350 --> 01:47:13.530
One aspect of the Chilean culture is formalism. I don't know if in respective countries that happens as well.

627
01:47:13.570 --> 01:47:24.040
Law as a tool is important. Laws in my country are being sold in the streets. So if you go to Santiago in Kiosk, you will find laws

628
01:47:24.180 --> 01:47:25.879
to the public.

629
01:47:25.930 --> 01:47:33.360
Public. Notaries are essential bureaucrats, because everything has to be signed in front of a notary, a public notary.

630
01:47:33.809 --> 01:47:35.840
Yeah. And

631
01:47:35.920 --> 01:47:40.919
and and this has to do with the legality

632
01:47:42.000 --> 01:47:44.580
and to feel recognized in Chile

633
01:47:44.889 --> 01:47:49.129
more than what happens, of course, in social interaction which is relevant

634
01:47:49.260 --> 01:47:52.640
is very important to be recognized by law

635
01:47:52.860 --> 01:47:58.000
on one of the demands, for example, of indigenous peoples in Chile

636
01:47:58.170 --> 01:48:13.370
is to be recognized in the Constitution. A few years ago I compare 16 Latin American constitutions, and the the only one that didn't say anything about indigenous people was the Chinaman, and in the social explosion there was a huge demand

637
01:48:13.540 --> 01:48:15.480
coming from indigenous people

638
01:48:16.040 --> 01:48:21.169
that we could discuss if it's needed or not. But

639
01:48:21.480 --> 01:48:25.470
legality forms part of the conversation of recognition.

640
01:48:25.580 --> 01:48:26.280
Okay.

641
01:48:26.540 --> 01:48:38.040
And I agree with you. We don't have time to talk about it, but we could continue afterwards memory as a space of recognition as essential, particularly the memory of the resistance and the victims.

642
01:48:38.500 --> 01:48:39.890
You want to spend something

643
01:48:40.270 --> 01:48:59.160
I can say. I I think that memory is important, but I would rather be after a history because memory is the root of a man. discussions. So we have to to establish one narrative or narratives that are present at the same time. This is, I think, the challenge, but I would like to say that

644
01:48:59.340 --> 01:49:09.129
 in Poland, in Polish society you may feel recognized, even if you are deprived of rights, and it gives you a sense of

645
01:49:09.340 --> 01:49:10.190
pink.

646
01:49:10.200 --> 01:49:38.890
so to speak, if you are a part of a larger movement. But the problem is, and of course, this is there. There's still a problem that there are people who do not have something. There are means recognizing the terms of this theory, for example, but there are some hobbyies recognized because they are proud of the movement, like women's movements or other of other movements. L Lgbtq movements, for example, etc. So you are still okay. They don't like you. But there is still someone who likes you right? And that is okay.

647
01:49:38.890 --> 01:49:52.020
But what about those people who who are not a part of a larger movement. Right? That is a problem. I feel that they are misrecognized, and they don't find as space to be recognized, but but anyone at all.

648
01:49:52.040 --> 01:50:07.659
and that, I think, is a really problem of misrecognition, which is also a problem of this theory, because this theory, as well as real life doesn't recognize such an individual people who you can find in the larger numbers.

649
01:50:09.040 --> 01:50:13.900
So there was a last comment, where time is up. But, please.

650
01:50:19.010 --> 01:50:23.289
it's just a comment or a suggestion to deny Google.

651
01:50:23.300 --> 01:50:38.969
If you want to understand the difference in attitudes between Brazil and Spanish-speaking North American countries. Look at Portugal and look at Portuguese colonial history as strongly suggests. Well, you might have already read

652
01:50:39.190 --> 01:50:46.780
one loose of tropicalism. and how the Portuguese colonial regime

653
01:50:46.840 --> 01:50:50.000
created a system of

654
01:50:50.160 --> 01:50:55.119
of social integration and of recognition through forms of alternative

655
01:50:56.140 --> 01:51:00.380
and through, and performs of social submission, which actually.

656
01:51:00.570 --> 01:51:09.690
which actually granted a kind of symbolic legitimacy, even to those who he has an implicit position, and even romanticizes such a position.

657
01:51:10.010 --> 01:51:12.859
And if you want to understand those attitudes in Brazil.

658
01:51:12.870 --> 01:51:18.870
we get studies of anti- austerity, social movements in Portugal

659
01:51:19.070 --> 01:51:23.540
during the 2,008, 2,014

660
01:51:23.730 --> 01:51:25.380
crisis of the eurozone.

661
01:51:26.240 --> 01:51:28.499
how easily they were turned.

662
01:51:28.720 --> 01:51:32.449
and the kind of promises, or or the kind of these courses

663
01:51:32.830 --> 01:51:38.250
that were that were forced by you to people in order to

664
01:51:38.420 --> 01:51:49.540
you know, in order to promote the legitimacy of the austerity measures and how easily they were accepted. It might help you understand those cultural differences.

665
01:51:51.890 --> 01:52:21.399
So thank you very much to our panelists and our participants, and if you would like to join us tomorrow, we have another session actually organized by again my colleague, Jean, on to the civilization of what is it? Yeah, to the civilization of social problems? It's at 1030 R. C. 12. So if you want to continue discussing criminalization in another light. You're very welcome.

666
01:52:21.800 --> 01:52:24.449
So thank you. Have a nice and