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Okay. Yeah, looks like it's all ready to go here. So, yeah, we're just gonna keep in mind with the floating menus.

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Drugs organized crime and illicit markets of RC 29 today we have confirm, 3 presentations and one may be online, but the person is not.

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Showing yet so my suggestion will be to give you 20 min to which one of the in person presenters here, I'll give you just a call 5 min.

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Before the end and then after that if the remote person appears we will open the the floor for him otherwise we can fromarize and have some discussion.

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Distance. Good. So we will start with the presentation of the digital cartoon. So if you wanna come up here and.

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Just start your presentation. Okay, thanks.

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So hello everyone. Thanks for joining us in this very last day. I mean there's some sessions tomorrow as well.

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It's kind of feeling the end already. So I'm happy that you're here and happy that I'm here.

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This is my first in-person ISC Congress. And today when I'm gonna present to you is a byproduct of my PhD thesis that I'm being aiming to submit and defend very soon.

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So I'm exploring the the digital cartel so from the point of view of marginalized teenagers that can or cannot be part of this drug cartels.

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With us. So what experience of this marginalized teenagers in Brazil with their cartels through social media?

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And by marginalized teenagers I'm talking about a specific group in Brazil. That actually they have a diverse intersecting also sources of marginalization and exclusion, but they are facing specific circumstance that they are placing shelters in Brazil.

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Shelter the places for their protection. So I need to say that I'm funded by the Swiss National Science Foundation and the foundation Shimidan in in Switzerland as well.

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And the characteristics of this presentation today is more like avenues to come. As I say, it's a byproducts.

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It's something that I'm planning to do just after my PhD as an article and I also need to say what is to live in a shelter in Brazil.

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Dales are places where children and teenagers are placed temporarily and exceptionally so they should not stay there more than 18 months for instance and this is already very exceptional And there is a assumption that some of the rights have been violated.

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Because, and this entails, this authorizes the intervention of the states. To do a harm itself which is to remove them from their families and communities.

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This is considered to be a lesser evil, a lesser harm compared to the violation of rights. For instance, they are not going to the school, they don't have food, their parents cannot take care of them and they spend the time alone they are taking criminal activities.

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They have their life threatened. And so because of the extremity of this measure that they are removed from the families and communities and even in the case that they don't.

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Have good relationship with them. Which is still traumatic. The priorities given to for them to be returned, the family or adopted.

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Even, because of this measure. But for teenagers The thing is that. It's unlikely they're going to be returned or adopted ever.

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Only 3% of the potential parents in Brazil want adopted Kids over 10 year olds over 10 years that are 10 years old or more imagine those that are 12 and 13.

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And so I also need to say that shelter they are not prisons. I mean, this might be obvious here.

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What is some circumstances there's few people that believe that those places are like prison the teenagers cannot go out They are being punished.

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This might come from previous practices actually until the eightys where these institutions were total institutions. Where the residents were actually where being maltreated but that's not the case today they have sometimes good conditions of life they have access to leisure to sports to nature.

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So let me talk about the fields. I did some, so it's like competitive research.

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We've gone to I went to the field twice, one before the pandemic and just after the pandemic, the things that pandemic completely rackets my research.

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Because I cannot access those places of course, they don't have a good internet connection. So I went in the last with 45 min in the in the of the second time as you say in Brazil in the Comparison with football, the second half.

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So in 2,022 I spent 3 months there and together in partnership with the Pontifical universe of the Catholic University of Yougenero.

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We did 61 interviews. Because this is also part of a larger project in Brazil that investigates children in 3 situations.

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I just happen to focus my research and shelters. So we went to 14 different institutions in 7 different cities in our 5 regions.

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So we have a ground scope for comparison. And we talk I did 47 interviews myself that were focus on social media So you might be a bit surprised that I'm working with theories from technology now.

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So not specifically approaching. Deviance, social dividends and social control even though this is also included.

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But I'm using 2 theories about technology and how technology also helps to convey to convey power. And how to use can can use this and and try to It's right to navigate this these conditions of power phrase because big tech companies they become very their service become very pervasive over the past years.

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So Dana Boyd, she's a researcher, she wrote a book about the network at life.

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Of teenagers in America. And she's right to show this book for parents, for the people that are concerned about those teenagers and what they are concerned about those teenagers and what they are doing in social media.

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To associate that she said that most of the teenagers they write something that is for specific audiences such as their friends, their peers, the community, the sometimes their parents.

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But they can keep navigating through different communities, to different audiences. Sometimes they are going to write a post that might be cryptic and might be like I want to kill myself or anything like this.

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And then the people that are close to the teenagers that are close to this person is going to Yeah, we are talking about these, it's just an expression, but the parents might interpret this person might kill herself.

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And so the problem is that because of the characteristics of social media that's easily replicable, searchable, the things that the content seems most most of the time is permanent.

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What is intended for one audience is going to reach a different audience. And this is as a standard for social media.

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What are public? And so, she came to realize that, teenage postings most if taken out of the context.

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Is going to seem very peculiar if not outright problematic. Just speak a bit about a bit more about the power of social media nowadays.

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I'm using Hosea Van Dyck. Concept of logics of social media. What are what are the logic of social media?

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How social media is so pervasive, so influential nowadays to the point that she said the social media is steering sociality is changing concepts like friending, liking, like interacting that they want to push this to be done through these platforms.

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So the 2 logics. That's most of the time is to serve their interests to be profitable to collect or that and to sell to be profitable to collect or that and to sell this data to sell things to us because of that and to sell this data to sell things to us because of our data is openness to us because of our data is openness.

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So they push. Users to share everything they can, everything they can and should be public. With the wide, to the widest origins possible.

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So the logic of connectedness. So, characteristics such as liking what we like now and friending, connecting to to more people are part of the part of those logics.

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She even said that this concept becomes so widespread and so even become why they accepted and even legalized.

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To the point that people are foreign going. Privacy.

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And so I have a few interviews that I want to present here. Some only excerpts. That some boy that already called their names for instance the boy called Carboni He was part of a DRA cartel.

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I know he's in a shelter and as part of a DRAK carte He used to be, someone that was looking at the police was coming, but sometimes selling, so a bit low-level still.

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But, because of, he was, He was a bit, he did something a bit silly that he told the family of a fellow teenager from the duck cartel that he was involved with that.

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And the fellow teenager was threatened to threaten to kill him. They were about to kill him and his grandmother.

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So they taught him to leave the community right away and one overnight he need to leave the community. So he can keep his mother alive.

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And he was kicked out of the place that he used to live. He was raised. And of the draw cartel.

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And I was surprised that I asked him if you had a mobile phone, if you have a mobile phone right now, what would you do?

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And he did some symbols that they're not going to do here because it's been recorded of course.

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He did some symbols that are symbols of draw cartels. And I was surprised, but you were kicked out of the rock cartel.

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No, I don't do this anymore and go I and I just do this because of my is my style, And he posted a picture of he had pictures of himself.

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Dressed like in the same way, the same way that people from that cartel are dressed with like goats.

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Necklaces and I specific type of like shades.

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He said that he is not involved anymore, but he was still doing this and even during the interview he taught me the symbols and he keep doing this they say I cannot do this now but then he kind of letting me know in the in his message that he still wanted to do.

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He still wanted to be to feel that he was linked to a drug cartel. There was this boy, Lalo.

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That he spent 4 years he was only 17 years old he spent 4 years in the juvenile detention center among different infractions that he committed.

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And he was still very much still connected with rock cartels. He was not a low level. He was considered a median officer or something like this.

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And he said that he used to post those things in social media. And then he showed me a picture of himself holding a pistol at a 12

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I'm not sure if they didn't they're correct. Telling me that look this is very dangerous is because of this picture that the police find me and I don't know how they define me because I live in the top of the hill.

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My uncle, he's actually the drug dealer, one of the leaders here, but they found me, the police even like walk me by send me a friendship request.

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And so to tell me that they found me and then that's the last time I was in prison is because of this picture.

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And even today that he said I don't want to go back to his life if I go to the favela I only have bad companies.

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I lost my 15 years. Oh my my birthday and I cannot I lost the entire year I don't want to go back but he still keep posting things about his rucketeer.

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He had the number that do on his arm. He keep He even show me pictures of bombs. That he was helping to stash in the Favel in the pests.

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And he was proud of it and even though he was becoming famous in Brazil, somewhat famous in his circle.

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By being a like a young actor he said that I asked a thing what if people find this kind of picture you know you of you when you go to the TV I know Uncle yeah they can find this kind of picture, but they cannot do anything anymore, you know?

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He was a bit oblique, but they cannot do anything anymore, you know? He was a bit obvillian, sorry, oblivious.

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Of what can happen to him after that and how he can be targeted, especially from a different cartel.

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So those 3. There's a third teenager that, He was scouts stealing in the favela which is Normally it's grounds for being at least kicked out of the favela, if not to say, killed.

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And so the Deroca-tel applies some kind of law of thalion to him.

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They shot his hands, his hand 3 times. And then he lost movements of of some muskles in his hands.

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As a result of that. He cannot go back anymore, but he keeps also taking features like with makeshift gun in this case and trying to threaten people online and singing songs of the rock cartels.

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I say, no, no, I don't know this anymore, but he's still trying to.

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Trying to find a middle ground of I still, this is part of my life and I still want to be recognized by this.

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So. Some researchers found a connection between masculinity and this sense of empowerment. That involvement in criminal activities can bring to one identity.

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This is kind of secondary Debian's that he was immersed in it. A subculture that he want to still be part of even though he was considered to be a an outcast himself.

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He was considered to be. Someone that if he step Those teenagers, if they ever step in the favela again.

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They would probably be killed. So they were in this ground that they don't perhaps they don't.

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Few included by its society, also because They weren't at red cartels by some reason and so they don't have a good relationship with their family.

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So they have some kind of point of reference in their cartels, but at the same time they understand that they are considering all deviants by the rocketeer itself.

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And so on this and how can this can bring a lot of negative effects to them We also have something that had nothing to do with rock cartels in Brazil.

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But because of their culture, culture, because of their friends. They were like a teenage that had was raised with strong religion standards.

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They were the teenager that was the most well behaved and the smartest kids in the shelter.

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We had a teenager that was afraid of social media because of the rock cartel QUEUE, the Drucker tell you how his family, his parents and his siblings.

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And he was the only one that survived. Out then they were still listening to funk songs. To the Brazilian funk songs that were funded by drawing cartels in Brazil.

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That talk about life in rock cartels in Brazil. And so this is interesting to say that This is a context.

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They were passing these things in a context of being part of like a subculture of teenagers from a context of being part of like a subculture of teenagers from the peripheries of being part of a subculture of teenagers from the peripheries that we listen to the same kind of

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music. That those 3 teenagers happens to be in 3 different states that are thousands, thousands of kilometers apart.

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And so this is kind of a subculture that they want to, they want to show that that's the kind of music that they like.

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And so the problem is that even those teenagers that have nothing to do with the cartels when someone from a cartel or the police find this kind of post they can be targeted.

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And so. There are 2 more things I want to say about the influence of rock cartels in this in the shelters.

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One is about jurisdiction. Because most of the states in Brazil we have their cartels in other states and they have nowadays they dominate.

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Huge part of the territory, especially from the periphery, from the communities and favelas in Brazil.

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And then normally they have this jurisdiction over the territory, but what happens with social media, they also have no jurisdiction over persons.

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For instance, if you are born in a favela from a certain drug cartel and then you you go to another favela that's another cartel and then they found out because of opposites in social media, you're going to be targeted, you can be cured, you cannot go to Fahrenheit for another

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hotel. Even though your family won't be there. And so they also find us, so in one of the shelters, in the shelters that I visited.

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Some teenagers were doing some like Apology of Tudor cartels. In a way that they were doing this for their friends, you know, because they thought it's fun, it's part of our culture and the arrival cartel found in and they were about invaded the shelter, kidnapped and killed them.

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And so the shelter had to be removed then overnight. In fact, they were lucky because this happened not with a shelter but with a institution for juvenile offenders.

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Where the teenagers were kidnappers and they were killed and were not in the teenagers was was tortured because he had the symbol of a cartel in his hands so they cut his hand off.

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Before killing him. So this is to say that they are they try to show that how strong they are often then they pass out this kind of executions on killings just like In Mexico, it's happening nowadays.

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And so there's a problem of contents. Some teenagers they because of their friends because they also look for discontents or because of They keep searching for this.

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In Tik Tok in YouTube and Instagram. The the the recommended systems of these platforms are gonna show this kind of content to for them again if they keep looking for this or even if they don't want anymore.

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Because their friends keep posting that and there was a teenager that was complaining that he don't want to see that anymore but if his friends want to post this.

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This kind of thing. And so I'm also talking about teenagers producing this kind of content themselves.

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That can be harmful or I'm talking about music, listening to music of their cartels and when you open YouTube and you keep a YouTube keep suggesting this same music that are apologies.

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So I want to finish this. To show that what are the avenues to come and some things that are abstract.

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As examples of how the digitization of their cartels through social media that I can see in shelters.

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Is that allow them to find to do some surveillance? Because of social media as I say cartels finding out if you're doing some symbols.

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Or if you are visiting someone that you shall not visit. That's something that I, it's a bit like a boat to say, but a kind of criminal algorithm.

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In a way that if you keep a There's a content that keeps being suggested that for people to keep looking for these kind of contents of the And in the way that's showing that Drucker does also take advantages of the logics of social media and also as a cultural phenomenon the way the lifestyle of the cocktails

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of being in a favela and being a powerful member of the cartel escaping this this fair of influence of people that were involved with that.

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To the teenagers that I think like this is fun, this is like something that I want to see me because they are powerful.

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And also as though we are advertising their their activities other than selling drugs online. Showing that they are strong so they are that they can They can attack the arrivals.

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Showing that they want to recruit people. This is just of some of the sounds of this. Manifestation of this phenomenon of in those shelters.

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So thank you very much for staying with me so far.

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And I hope I made myself understood. I think we passed questions after, yes, all right. Thanks a lot.

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So.

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Yeah.

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Let me take a while to load. Yeah, that's okay.

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So thank you. Thank you for being in the almost last day of the conference.

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So my presentation will be about the entire reception, policing. Executive power during the October occupation by freedom oft protesters.

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So before really starting on on the the presentation as we're going to see quite quickly I will just, contest a little bit.

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I think some of you may be aware of, the truck protests in Ottawa, others not so I think it's always good to I have some sense of that.

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And not have a whole bunch of sponsors. I don't need to name all of them. Just add the picture as a kind of

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Redugby player or racer. Right

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So, I will do a little pam, preamble on, you know, explain a little bit how odd was the protest and how unusual was the policing.

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But this is not really the point of my presentation. I think we're going to see how the idea of aception unfolds into that and most of my presentation will be around that covering quite quickly.

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You know there's a JEFF reception a sovereign power based from Shimet and they're going back.

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Taking another look to the the occupation of the downtown Ottawa through reception lenses or key events.

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That occur. And also in terms of time and also in terms of this partiality. Of deception.

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Then going back to a key aspect on who the side deception and discussing a bit. The role of fully of policing.

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Hey, regarding a kind of everyday life exception or the potentiality of of enacting aception by proxy to discretionary power from the police.

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Which is not necessarily something new in the global south. But it was quite interesting to see this. In the global north.

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Then I will pretty much conclude with some insights or options on controlling this raw sovereign power. Again making some difference to Schmidt Dijkstra and you know a little bit on discussion on how courts and times are to differential for these kinds of legal arrangements and to impose some constraints to the executive.

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This is overview quite long but it's going to unfold quite quickly. So just, contextualizing a little bit the protest.

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So this is occurring in Ottawa. Hopefully from the 20 eighth January to the end of February, 2,022.

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It was related to anti-vax movement, mandate and so on. But it was a little bit broader than that because there's not necessarily a a current.

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Discourse or narrative and There's a discussion around, you know, social movement folks.

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If it's, you can consider this. A social movement even as a new social movement because it was not necessarily a coisive movement at all.

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And there is about party, literally, after 3 years of pandemic. They had GJs in straight corners.

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They have a huge stage in front of the parliament building. And really they did do play. Busy boys you have the right to fight your right to party.

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And it's, yeah, I think it shows a little bit this. Very difficult thing. There is literally the J there.

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And you know a whole bunch of crazy folks drinking gasoline and so on And obviously, you know, Messianic discourse and a whole bunch of other things.

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So it's just a quite diffuse crowd. That somehow far right, core protesters ally against the mandates even if the government was not necessarily responsible for the mandates.

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Itself. Diffuse interest outright far right core and a whole bunch of tourists and not only the weekends sometimes during the week as well.

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And obviously a whole bunch of vehicles. They have like about 500 vehicles and among them a hundred heavy load trucks which pretty much block the whole downtown area.

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Police was quite interesting because they welcome. The trucks. You know, this is actually from the social media from the police, you know, stating that they respect the right of our communities to speak out, our role as a police service to provide a safe space for people to grieve and to be heard.

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So obviously. The the age of community is quite. Strange there as well because all those truckers they were not part of the community.

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They were actually coming from different states, different problems and you know not necessarily being having any kind of link with the community and especially with the occupied area.

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So you know you have the communications from the police designing parking areas. I'm going to go fast on this because I will come back to this in more details in the following slides.

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And then obviously the right of protest was It's not something that applies to things. You know, you cannot

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This, you do not have a right to protest with a heavy load truck. How you do not have a right to protest with a plane, right?

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So these things are quite different. And they have this very Unusual police reaction today which was really off compared to any kind of protest.

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So otherwise a capital city a whole bunch of embassies There's protests literally every day, 3, 5 times a day.

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On the Parliament Hill near in Bassis. And usually the police take quite different action than just leaving the things go on.

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So just just occupy air and passing fast as well because I'm going to go a little bit later.

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But it's quite interesting to see this like they really provide a path. To and they block streets to let the the trucks go in and park in front of the Parliament which is kind of quite odd you know it's never going to happen with Black Lives Matter or something like that.

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They had a whole bunch of Lego 2 available criminal law like just a for policing protests. Usually they use a mix of criminal or regulatory law and municipal bylaws.

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And police also mentioned during the protests that they could use less usual laws regarding child protection and animal protection.

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So it's a quarter of winter. It's not winter like hearing. In Melbourne it's like minus 30 minus 40 Celsius So having a baby or a dog in a car.

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It's not necessarily a good idea and violate a couple of laws. There are also injunctions and also declaration of emergencies, municipal level, provincial, state level and federal language.

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Leads to my May point of this presentation. My point is really to jump back. The idea of emergency because

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Even after 2 levels of decoration of emergency, police issue

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Take the time for 3 days before issuing parking tickets. Which is a quite interesting thing. Especially to already go a little bit further towards the conclusion so you can really see who really decides on what emergency is about.

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So. Quite intro to quite quick into to Kashmir's notion of classic notion.

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Of aception, emergency within this term. So classic goats, sovereign is He who decides on reception?

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I mean this idea that is the personal institution with the ability to transcend the rule of law that is that's capable of bringing about a total or partial suspension of the law and then use it actually go force to normalize a situation or to go burn a situation.

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In that's it that person me Meaning that this person or institution holds sovereign power within that political unit.

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So boring. Go back to our entry level political science for undergrads.

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It's quite interesting to go back this and this again and look in this. And the timeline of the occupation.

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So they arrive. On the 20 eighth of February though this was a Friday before a weekend and obviously authorities and especially residents.

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They thought this would maybe be over the weekend and then people trucks would leave and things would go back to normal.

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Quite quickly they realised that things were not back to normal. And by already February second the police chief at the time said well there may not be a policing solution to this demonstration.

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It was quite interesting quite quickly this theory declared a state of emergency. There was a class action obtain an from the Superior Court of Justice on February 7 meaning The city declare emergency you have a justice order.

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So Jess is that trucks should at least stop to honk. By midnight or keep rolling and it's literally like you could smell diesel before hearing the noise of the truck.

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Is so bad. And for the house in the downtown area they literally shake. Yes, with this low, running, from, you know, 500 vehicles.

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February eleventh the creation of emergency provincial level kind of state level 15 of February the federal government declare a public order emergency and again after that there's nothing.

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There was nothing in terms of

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They could declare a kind of national security thing and you know send the army but they didn't have an necessarily these kind of dispositions.

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Without having a quasi h of the institutional order at the time. And again as I mentioned police you wait a couple of days to issue by law violations.

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And to do some arrests. So I'm not saying that This should be the police action from the beginning.

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I'm just saying it's quite interesting to see that. Hedardless the many legal tools available regarding the additional exceptional legal tools available It was a matter of police and description up to the end.

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The police clears out the protest on 20 first. And then emergency was revoked on the 20 third.

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But the downtown core was assuming kind of locked down. Based only on police discretion at the time. So they gave it the downtown area and there it remained gated up to beginning of March.

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Just to visualize a little bit the area. So this is the The gridlock area from the beginning of the protests.

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Probably don't know. But like the parliament side is really here and my anniversary is this and there's a pretty much a total residential neighborhood.

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So students are here. Living here. This is the downtown core of from where it is kind of yellow.

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You have buildings that are mixed use office and residential and all the red areas are pretty much 100% there with houses and old houses.

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So it's a pretty much the same. Maps and this was the secure area that the who is defined as a red zone.

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Which is quite interesting because how am I with time?

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Okay, so I have time to do a video So basically within the red zone The police decide to not enforce any loss.

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That doesn't matter what was happening. People called the police, you know, there is a fire in front of my house.

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There is someone, you know, urinating or doing other things more disgusting. In front of my house or in my balcony.

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Someone's throwing rock at my place and the police would not come. And by law officers. Also would not come.

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And this is a

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A video with Money Sports Council, they would have a discussion with the police board, police chief.

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And the chief of by law officer so he's going to explain a little bit why they just decide to not enforce any loss.

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But yeah, well, bylaw continues to do everything they need to do within or outside of the perimeter outside of the red zone.

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And within the rent zone, they're doing it in consultation with police. And they're doing their job.

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So, sorry, Councillor, did you have a specific question with regards to by law. It's related to parking tickets.

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Why is a truck not given a parking ticket yet? A citizen who just parks over time and actually pay is getting ticketed.

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Yeah, so all activities outside of the red zone are it's regular business for for the citizens of Ottawa and that's where most of the tickets are taking place.

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The one ticket they're referring to occurred on the market. And the market when they started collapsing the red zone, which is the area of.

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Demonstration of the market was no longer in the red zone and bylaw started to do their regular duties in that area.

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There was another, 2, social media accounts relating to people who had

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I think we just continue with other examples on how outside the red zone they were it was regular business And within the red zone, the police said, well, we should not intervene.

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And again, going back to who decides on the deception, who has the ability to declare emergency and and establish somehow a zone where the rule of law does not applies.

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Well, the police did that. Way before other level of government. The executive branch declaring emergency. With some legislative constraints or legal constraints to that.

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You know, if there is a declaration of emergency it should be voted they should be renewed after a certain amount of time.

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In the case of the federal level. It comes with a a public order and emergency commission. That they need to do a report and they issue a 2,000 page report after like months of consultations and and testimonies and experts.

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Like the police as it was an ongoing operation.

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It was simply impossible to any level of government to intervene. Which is quite interesting. So the police chief change.

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And the same thing occurred. There was a lot of political pressure and from the point of view of the police it was not Were for secure to its member to enforce the law within the occupied area.

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That's it.

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So why why this is important? Well, the obvious question is who decides

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Is on limits to police intervention. To what stand police discretion may imply I hope a total of the rule of law within a certain area for a certain time.

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To whatstand Police discretion may be. May go beyond disobeying legal orders from a judge So it's not only like being description area about applying laws enacted by the legislative to what point police can overturn order from the judiciary and we're seeing like all that in this kind of example which brings like quite interesting questions on

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governing discretionary power of the police. Police polls in Canada so just students a bit it's often provided by court so we don't have legislation providing what exactly are police power which means that We have tons of digital relations that are more or less local and also judicial decisions by province or state.

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And policing protocols and guidelines regarding each police that will arrive from sometimes city to city. And this was one of the things that the public ordered an emergency commission recommend.

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So you know we need to figure out These guidelines may provide that we should provide a better framework of police powers in Canada because We really saw how messy this can go.

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The role of this year is quite interesting to start thinking about that. Okay, I'm concluding.

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I think there were quite interesting examples in Canada, but especially in Brazil, Israel and Turkey to be more recent on You have the same kind of game being played by the police and then the judiciary is pretty much tapping and say well you know you cannot just obey I should show order This is a crime and we are going to enforce that

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against the police.

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And obviously, we have, have lots of things to discuss on how policing should proceed.

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Within the rule of law in a way that We have less deference to police power and obviously with all the dangers possible to reduce your activism that may endorse police power targets in some kinds of protests and not others.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Last week.

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Just quick. One next presentation Jackson. Yeah, hard to get. Yeah, there we go.

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Thank you.

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Wonderful.

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Okay, should work. Hi. This paper focuses on the relationships among hate crimes, far right domestic terrorism, and democratic backsliding in the US, Canada and Europe.

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So. We're in we're in good order here, essentially. See if I can get that to go.

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I have a lot to get through so I'll move really fast and then answer any questions that you have.

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So what I try to do in this part of the presentation is to give you some information about each of these 3 areas is to give you some information about each of these 3 areas is to give you some information about each of these 3 areas.

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So in all 3 areas of these 3 areas. So in all 3 areas that we'll talk about right-wing extremists.

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So in all 3 areas that we'll talk about, right-wing extremist violence has been recognized, right-wing extremist violence has been recognized to be a serious problem, right wing extremist violence has been recognized to be a serious problem by both authorities and violence has been recognized to be a serious problem by both authorities and academic study groups.

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So in the United States, Homeland Security, Department has been recognized to be a serious problem by both authorities and academic study groups.

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So in the United States, Homeland Security, Department of Justice In Canada, the Canadian security intelligence service focuses in on ideologically motivated violent extremism as one of the most serious domestic threats we're facing today and defines 4 categories as drivers alone or in combination.

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Xenophobic, gender-driven, anti-authority, and other personal grievance-driven violence in the European Union, the EU Agency for Law Enforcement Cooperation, Europol, of course, 2,021 in their report notes that overlap between organized crime groups

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and right-wing extremists, weapons procurement, and drug trafficking to finance neo-Nazi networks all suggest a change in strategy for handling them.

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They also point out the heterogeneous right wing ideologies, including white supremacist groups that call for attacks targeting Muslims and Jews.

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The destruction of the democratic order and the establishment of new communities based on racist ideology. So we have a lot to work on, in all of these areas.

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We start with the idea that hateful narratives radicalize and recruit members and that they undermine democracy in the United States.

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40% of FBI domestic terrorism investigations in 2,025 domestic terrorism investigations in 2,020 were racially or ethnically motivated.

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In the European Union, increase diversity in targeted groups, further internationalization and increased online presence call for new suppression strategies to counter violent extremism.

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This according to a report by the European Commission.

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Far right extremists in the military and police. Protect and advance the movement. Depressingly, right?

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In the United States, police instructor sympathy for white supremacist groups like the Proud Boys has been documented by news, government, and academic sources.

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The Council on Foreign Relations. Documents the violent far right and white supremacist terrorist threat within the US military as well as law enforcement.

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Veterans participating in the January sixth, 2,021 insurrection insider threats to the military as evidenced by the June, 2,020 private in the airborne brigade arrested for plotting an attack on his own unit as well as other more recent examples including Jack Taxera, a

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national an air national guardsman who leaked classified US intelligence documents. In Canada right-wing ideologically motivated violent extremists joined and recruit from the Canadian armed forces.

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The reserves and the police. This according to a House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety.

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Radicalization in the police and military has been noted. Recording and following up on hate crimes again is not prioritized.

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In the European Union, far right extremism has been documented in German military, police and intelligence services and police.

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And there are several sources as well as in Austria, the same sort of thing in Austria and in France.

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I started to use the political disorder and armed conflict location event data more often referred to as AKLED to use the political disorder and armed conflict location event data, more often referred to as AKLED and for the United States, the ACLED Data point out or allow us to say that far right mobilization after

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the capital riots and leading up to the midterm elections in 2,022 evolved to include an uptick in white nationalist white supremacists and anti-LGBT organizing as well as against access to abortion.

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In Canada, demonstration levels, again according to AKLID, spiked with the trucker's freedom convoy in Ottawa, opposing the vaccine mandate for truckers traveling between the US and Canada.

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And in the European Union, Akled examines social movements on both the left and the right. For example, the France in France, the Yellow Vest Movement in Germany, the rising far-right activity, including far right infiltration of the Queer Denkin movement in opposition to coronavirus

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mitigation procedures. In the Netherlands, far right support for farmer protests was not always welcomed by farmers themselves, a kind of moving around of far-right activities to issues that the local population will find resonate with them.

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In addition to the Aklad data, the atlas of impunity also is useful in this regard in examining accountability, justice, and community.

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In the United States, the atlas of impunity points out in the data that despite prosperity and relative transparency, class inequality as well as conflict, violence and racial discrimination, particularly against Black Americans stands out.

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Kind of source of. A point that far right groups can. Focus in on. In Canada, low conflict and high security is the impression that we come with from the Atlas of impunity.

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But disproportionate poverty, violence, and incarceration rates suffered by its indigenous population, general trauma and contemporary discrimination suggests some impunity.

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In the European Union, generally a secure area with low conflict and violence, but higher levels of recorded group grievances and lower levels of order and security in some states, including France, Hungary and Poland, Greece and Croatia as well are noted for higher discrimination and weaker equality of treatment.

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Unease with my minority demographic and political strength is at the heart of the right-wing movement in all of these areas.

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Right-wing extremist groups today are the tip of a broader social and political subculture that contributes to their effectiveness.

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White national identity is prioritized and protections for minorities undermined. Hate crimes, right-wing domestic extremist violence and other right-wing political violence derived from this subculture.

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And coordinated instances of lashing out at myities and at perceived government controls over white men. Taxation, gun regulations, federal land use policies result from a sense that minorities and big government threatened traditional majority freedoms and should be suppressed.

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Leaderless resistance obscures the wider subculture supporting white power extremists. Timothy Mcbay's, 1,992 bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building as well as the other examples that I have there.

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All were blamed on the perpetrator instead of understood as reflecting a wider level of support for this kind of activity.

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Anti-immigrant protests in Europe gave cover to white nationalist groups and legitimized resistance to increasing diversity.

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Kohler has written a lot on that. Hate crime and domestic terror emerge in the data as overlapping phenomena and for a discussion of that I would send you to the terrorism research center at the University of Maryland referred to as START.

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According to the US National Security Council's June, 2,021 one report domestic terrorist activities are life-threatening, intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or to influence or coerce the policy or conduct of a government by mass destruction intimidation and coercion.

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Institutional failure to protect minorities supports democratic backsliding. Pressure from growing right-wing Holocaust revisionism, anti-Roma racism and exclusion of LGBT groups has undermined liberal civil society and the rule of law in Hungary and Poland.

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Hate crime bullying toward right-wing xenophobic goals is not new in Hungary, for example, in 2,008 to 9, the death squad targeted Roma and alleged gypsy crime.

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Sentenced to life in prison in 2,016 the death squad sought to eliminate the minority. The Hungarian Arrows Liberation Army founded in 2,007 by a right-wing extremist also focused on intimidating minorities as well as journalists and political leaders through arson attacks, threatening letters and physical violence.

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Official failure to safeguard minorities legitimizes the far right message that white Christian nationhood is under attack and in need of protection.

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Institutional avoidance of hate crime enforcement stimulates the rise of alt-right fight clubs. Until recently, for example, there was weak US federal suppression of the proud boys and the rise above movement.

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The National Socialist Underground in Germany was not scrutinized by intelligence services while it perpetrated 10 Xenophobic murders over 7 years.

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In fact, domestic intelligence services obscured the far right involvement.

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Apathy toward the protection of minorities reflects a base of support for far right extremist activity and contributes to challenges to liberal democracy.

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We have limits on the official targeting of hate crimes. At this point I also talk about the iceberg model which describes the relationship between far-right extremist violence and cultural and social support for it.

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An increase in low-profile vandalism and violence against individuals. Pre-sages an attack.

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An escalation in mass casualty attacks. So we ignored this lower level violence for a long time in the United States.

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In fact, in after night, 2,016 when we had a change in presidential administration when President Trump came in, the US cut spending for non-Muslim domestic terrorism.

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Despite an increase in far-right violent attacks and therefore remove them from scrutiny. 90% of law enforcement agencies in the US do not supply hate crime data to the FBI or they report that they have none.

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This despite the fact that they're required to report it.

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Nationalists gravitate to the interior ministry when a right-wing government is elected in whole or in part.

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And they go to the interior ministry. Okay, I'm getting notes here. With its immigration and law and order portfolios.

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So for example, the anti-extremist unit of Austrian domestic intelligence service was compromised by the far right Freedom Party.

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By an unelected official. Weaponized interior ministries in Austria, Germany, and Italy made obscured the efforts of extremist groups.

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And I must say the same happened in the United States when we have Jeff Sessions at the head of justice.

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Elected there's a lot there's been a lot of support for ideas that protected white supremacists for example for a period of time European leaders including Angela Merkel declared the death of multiculturalism and other leaders named here made room for the priority for native populations, for example, suggesting that immigrants were

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a problem. I'm going to whiz through some of these slides to show you what else is going on in this project but domestic extremist hate groups for example have committed a lot of violence and justify their violence in terms of far-right political philosophy.

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There's a lot of useful work in this area. Ari Perliger, for example, has a book and some articles looking at far-right violence in the United States.

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And he tried to correlate it with the passage of particular laws and supreme courts in the United States in a 2,012 lengthy study on this topic that he's expanded in his 2,020 book.

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The European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights provides data on hate crimes over a long series of years, but not all states that were included in the European Union at the time.

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Provided the data every year. And some states don't really collect what we would think of as hate crime data.

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In the FBI data, I've already suggested, is weak in that most of it isn't reported.

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Canada has in fact a recent report on hate crime but also complaints that much data on hate crime isn't recorded.

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Data on extremist violence is also hard to get cross nationally, but there's some. Ravindal, for example, has the right-wing terrorist data set that's easy to find and Perliger offered some data for the US.

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I'm hoping we get better at collecting these data. There are some tables that I can offer you if you write to me. There are some tables that I can offer you if you write to me.

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I have one publication in this topic from last year and working on But here are some of the data that I was talking about.

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Politics and the suppression of data collection is a topic we could consider for a considerable length of time. A big part of the problem is that elected leaders are wary of alienating white Christian nationalists.

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They want their vote. And this is not a useful topic for them. And rudimentary data though allows ineffective policy to remain in effect.

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Because it's easy to say that the problem isn't as bad. As it is. So, you know, in conclusion, I would argue that hate crime prepares a liberal democracy for domestic terrorism.

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We have plenty of examples. I offered Hungary, for example, as one. Political leaders have legitimized anti-immigrant policy platforms of the far right and been inattentive to the protection of myities.

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Hate crimes create a permissive environment and provide practice for extreme mass casualty attacks. It's hard to know what the effect of a crackdown on hate crimes will be.

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Some of us were talking the other day about an article by Doug and antenna with in 2,020 where it's a quantitative analysis that they've done where they pose several hypotheses and examine and examine what has happened when we cracked down.

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I would argue that the results aren't really definitive, but they have a lot of data that they offer in this topic and I can provide you with the actual source.

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I would argue that firm federal and EU steps federal in the US, federal and Canada and EU steps are necessary to increase the swiftness and severity of hate-crime law enforcement.

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And thank you.

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See the Oh yeah, wait a minute.

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Tovia, Fatauri and Taki Jacob, no, but it's not the it's not in the So they are not present.

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So at this time, what I will call for you is to make some questions suggestions and discussions for the presentation so Did you want to raise your hand and then, yeah, please go ahead.

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I will suggest to go to the microphone because this is recorder. Yeah, and if you want, I mean the presenters can see down if they want.

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That, thank you very much. My question is for Professor Jackson and also Yeah, and how do you explain this kind of elective affinity if you wish between some of the elements within the police, kind of elective affinity if you wish, between some of the elements within the police, between some of the elements within the police enforcement agencies and the extreme right

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groups. Because my general sense from how the story was told is, you know, depending on whether this is that there is a public protest if it is done by Black Lives Matter versus if it's done by Black Lives Matter versus if it's done by the proud boys or if it's done by the you know Muslim minority group

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or German extremists the police might behave very differently. In terms of how you know how rapidly they escalate and how they deal with protesters and everything else.

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Is it? Because, I don't know, because maybe police things the far left wants to defund the police force whereas the far right wants to unleash the police force I mean so this is our natural friends and whereas these are people we don't pluck anyway.

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I mean, so how do you, I guess, explain what is happening? Because it seems that there is a very similar theme emerging in the whole set of different countries.

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Thank you. Just in. Referred at least 2 rise of distribution. Each one.

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Yeah. Yeah, this is to Professor Jackson. She mentioned about the use of open source data. And, it comes to mind this initiative in the United States is called the fatal encompass presented at some about people who are killed by the police.

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Is that the kind of initiative that had to? Yeah, is that the kind of initiative that you had in mind?

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That's what it looks like. Oh, are we issuing it? If you

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Yes, thank you for your fascinating work and presentations. My name is Kase Collins from Utrecht University in the Netherlands.

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And just to, corroborate some of the things that, You said Pamela, yeah, yesterday in one of the leading Dutch newspapers there was a big a report about how an ongoing investigation within the Dutch armed forces about the penetration of neo-Nazism was internally

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sabotaged. And this one of the many examples of the kind of things that you also mentioned.

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So this is more a reflection. Actually my question is picking up also on the first question, a specific one maybe for for as well.

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In the Ottawa cage to what extent did the police use sort of the police use sort of impossibility to face the sort of impossibility to face the materiality of the truckers as a reason for them to try to to find them or remove them is something we also saw in the early phases of in the

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Netherlands the protests of the so-called self-dominated farmers defense force that with that heavy tractors went to the Hague, the sheet of government and occupying the center and so on.

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And, more in general, I think I agree that this this rise of right-wing racism hate crime neo-Nazism and so on has sort of eats into neoliberal democracy.

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And actually indeed the neoliberal democracy seems much more sensitive to comply or at least not act firmly against these kind of protests from the right and action from the right and in contrast to Black Lives Matter extinction rebellion.

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Occupy movement a little bit longer ago after the financial crisis but one of the things Pamela that you said maybe I challenged it a little bit that that that democratic governments don't want to alienate these persons because it would also put in jeopardy there, white Christian voters.

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I'm not quite sure at least not in Europe or in the Netherlands because the electorate, results of these movements is not that impressive.

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And so there must be something else why centric myths the middle of the road center right or even central left governments are so so compliant in terms of moving their positions from rejecting extreme writings to almost adopting them.

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I'm not sure if the actual electoral threat from the far right in Europe at least explains that.

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Apologies for the slightly elaborate question, but I would love to hear All panelists.

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Some source of

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I can see the strong links between the 2 presentations. One thing that I have the curiosity to know is about the issue of funding and for instance like Staying over one month in the parking in Ottawa and then especially in Europe because we have so many different national movements that have so many similarity of

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them. Whether you identified some Same sources of funding or if you come across this type of data, especially there are some discussions about is being funded by other countries and they would done these countries that are affected.

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Yeah, yeah. So, I would try to go quickly and then and not to cover everything because I think it overlap.

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Yes, there is collective infinity and especially I will say a Oh, on 2 levels. There is a.

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They they do recognize that the other is something similar to those that are part of police force or are related to police forces.

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Could be a family member would be and stuff like that. And also I let the FINANCA at Tracks so the way they see this folks is not the same way they would see like for instance black protester or something like that or someone with and this is you know a classic thing in policing research on how they handle mental

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health, you know, if police officer deal with someone with within the spectrum of autism If the person is racialized pretty much done because not going to answer in the way the police are expecting so like in this sense that the like the whole package brings the like affinity but not like I will say I have simple elect affinity in terms

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of you know in a the variance sense or in ideological sense I would say it's a little bit more looking once in terms of.

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Police stop training in Hey, assimilating a certain

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A certain, It's past the quiances that are certain. Preferential that make them move fast and garden certain people and happy on the, impossibility.

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Which also you know adds a complicated element regarding the the left affinity thing. Police are trying to deal with people.

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Not with objects. So how police police are A heavy load truck. They don't have a kind of 200 year 500 years.

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Background of dealing with that fast. Like for instance, the reaction of the oral police. Was okay the trucks are coming So what we should do is direct them directly to the department.

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You because then they want to get up. This is completely absurd. Terms of managing and securizing this situation.

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The same thing, they move the drugs from at some point from the neighborhood. Mostly residential and they really bark heavy little trucks in power It's not an environment.

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Good luck moving. Have you, trucks barking farther in front of Parliament? Without their direct collaboration because there's no angle to tell the the trucks unless you have an inboxer.

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Me, something like that. So like they did this quite bizarre decisions that I will not say that was because of elect affinity of the protesters just because the were not Epsteinologically it but to do to deal with that situation.

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So they made a whole bunch of bad decisions and crazy decisions. Like for instance, they asked me what device at some point the most protests.

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And you know they receive a liver device from someone in the city. That well people had the right to test and which is Like any first year law student knows that don't have like a shadow protection to an object.

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Yeah. So they had these kind of things and on the funny side quite quickly they had social something campaign to go from me They have like a 15 million dollars

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The data would be used by hardcore suggests was pretty much half of it coming from the west Which you know raise concerns.

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For the government to be their emergency. You have a. By capital C partially found by people abroad.

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This is more than enough to And then when they port froze, they, both on me they change the platform to send gives them or something like that, which is a recent base platform that's usually found in a in.

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But I believe that there's a guy that Shoot, there's a major one that shoots.

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So, you know, that's the same platform that leverage functions. And if you're interested on that, the public, ordinary emergency commission, they They have a huge chapter on the funding side.

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And they also commended papers from That's, dealing with, funding, to, social platform, There's quite consistent implementation here as well.

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Okay, so I'll say that. It seemed like I can remember the order of questions first. With to the police that question why did the police go along with this?

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No, these kinds of people. Oh, they give me that. They can't. Imagine themselves a lot of the time suppressing people who are part of the majority in the society and I believe this happens in Europe and the anti-immigration protests for example and they kind of go along.

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A lot of police we know have the same attitudes and subscribe to the same organizations, right-wing organizations.

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In fact, we have a lot of evidence that of that if we want to look at the military remember that in January of last year the military in the US stood down.

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Or was it a month? To investigate the problem of white supremacy in the US. Military. Look at the people who had served in the military who showed up at January, the sixth even in military formation.

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The press made a lot of that. So, and there was so much time to prepare. For January sixth, which was very violent and even the capitalist police.

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Were the capital police who take care of policing for the capital area were split. Some of them supported the protesters and kind of wave them through and some of them recognize the danger and were heroes and many of them were hurt.

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You know, we can remember that not all that long ago the BBC showed, film of an instructor in the National Police Academy in Britain coming in in the National Police Academy in Britain coming in in a Ku Klux Klan outfit to the National Police Academy in Britain coming in in a Ku Klux Klan outfit to

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the National Police Academy in Britain coming in in a Ku Klux Klan outfit to the class to show them, how to treat Pocies, Pakistanis.

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When they take them up. That was in the front page of all of the papers. I happened to turn on BBC News that night and see that one of the students recorded it.

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And that's how it got out. Now, you know, Nobody's perfect anywhere, so this isn't to castigate any one particular department.

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But in Germany, in the intelligence service in a case that I alluded to. You know, they found out that a right-wing organization was committing the what were called the kebab murders.

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A small kebab shop. Entrepreneurs who were Turkish would being killed one after the other and the intelligence services said that it was a Turkish mafia.

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That no one had heard of in Germany before, but then a camera in a coffee shop recorded one of the head intelligence service.

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People meeting with a right wing, a member of a right-wing organization. This is all in the paper that I published last year in a paper that I published last year in democracy and security where you can get more information on it and security where you can get more information on it.

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And and realized, oh, okay, this is what's happening. So I have to say that to the extent that police do not tamp down a lot of these protests.

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It's to some extent because there's some, support for them. I think we need to add to the examples of that.

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What happened after the Bundy protests in the United States? The Bundy Brothers with a group of anti-government anti-ficialist.

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Protesters took over some federal lands and insisted that people be able to graze their cows there even though it's protected for birds.

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And that went on for Long weeks, weeks where if they had been an African-american group taking over those same lands, there isn't any way it would have gone on as long as it did.

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So we have a lot of examples that that suggests that there's some support on the part of the police.

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I'll just answer these other questions quickly and then give someone else a chance. But with regard to open source data, which was the question.

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Yes. You seem to know already that. The guardian newspaper called the FBI and and asked for data on police killings of civilians and We didn't have it.

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It was James Comey at the time and he started the process. Gathering it but in the meantime the guardian did it then the Washington Post picked it up that is one source of open source data, but there are others.

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And so to find more, I would suggest that you take a look at the START website at the University of Maryland, the study of terrorism and if you just put in START, University of Maryland, it will come up and I can help you look for.

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For some of that. In terms of the question about white political leaders move policy positions toward right-wing causes when it seems that the right wing maybe it's 1215%.

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But of course, now look at Italy. And the most recent election, right? That wasn't a small victory on the part of the right way, right?

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So it's hard to say anymore that the right way doesn't have electoral strength. Look at Trump.

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Election. Right. I think you know, that the iceberg model, which suggests that there's a lot of that most dangerous part of the iceberg is underneath the part that you don't see, that there's a lot of support for maybe single issues.

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Maybe there's many ways to be right, as Dideron said in his study of Western Europe, that a single issue can make someone vote for a right-wing leader that it's a more dangerous phenomenon than we might.

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Think and that political leaders instinctively know that and they don't want it. Get those out. I don't know if I answered all the questions but

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Yes.

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I'm Kathryn Orient Weiss from the Trobe University, our lecture in sociology.

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Thank you so much for all 3 of the talks. Thank you so much for all 3 of the talks that were really fascinating.

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Thank you so much for all 3 of the talks are really fascinating. I wanted to talk a bit about this, of the talks are really fascinating.

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I wanted to talk a bit about, this is more of a comment, but then I have a question afterwards.

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I wanted to talk a bit about, this is more of a comment but then I have a question afterwards.

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Your talk panel really made me think about things that have been happening in and so thinking about the ways that they who are supported by the police who you separated the new Nazis and the counter protesters and also that the one of the most prominent neo-Nazis is the son of a senior police officer in Victoria Police.

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And that there is a picture there was a picture that was circulating on Twitter of a police officer shaking hands if one of the neo-Nazis.

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So although it doesn't seem like maybe they're as organizers in other countries, I can see a lot of the same patterns that you mentioned coming out here in Victoria and Australia as well.

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So the other my question is about France because I've also lived in France. And so it sort of goes to the issue of double standards.

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So, but it's more the government than the police. The fact that the French government has introduced an anti-separatism law in the fact that the French government has introduced an anti-separatism law in the last few years.

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Which is used to dissolve a number of different organizations but from across the spectrum so we have like the CCIF which is an organization.

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Combining Islamophobia. We also have the, do you know how long you don't detail?

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So that's, a right wing organization. Extreme right and then also we have This's an ecological organization.

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So I'm interested in your thoughts on what Like what the analysis, I guess, any analysis you can add to that use of.

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This one law to kind of combat all these different groups from different points in the ideological spectrum.

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Oh yeah, that's all. Thank you.

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Now I'm not sure which one, but one of the papers brought to mind the homeless protests at Flinders Street which I don't know if you guys aware of that and that made me think of The red fern rites a number of years ago.

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And the response of the police to that situation and then and then a number of years later a shooting of an aboriginal

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A kid in a in in Alice Springs. And just just that interaction. And almost, an existential crosses for, you know, the coppers who, as we sort of stated before, are really just following orders of what they believe to be the the middle road.

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Values, consensus values. So yeah, I just I just thought there was a that it It evolved into those thoughts for me.

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So thank you.

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Enjoy coming.

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Hi, my name is Peter. I'm from Turning Point in Melbourne. I just had a question for Andrea.

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Sorry, I came a little bit late, but I was just curious as to the methods that you use in kind of what ethical considerations you had to take kind of speaking with young people about about these activities.

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I know in my research I mean it's a little bit different, it's drug and alcohol but I know that we're specifically not allowed to talk to people about potential criminal activity.

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Just from an ethical point of view, that's just what we're allowed to do. So outside the scope of our studies.

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So you're just kind of curious about how you handle that particularly with I guess young young vulnerable people and if you have to take them to anything specific around that.

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What about me? Right, right quickly. And I totally agree with you. There are elements within the police and especially in police unions and associations.

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Sometimes you have

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Kids in platitters and with firewalls. Also within the reports then from the Parliament Commission.

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Mentioned on both the intelligence community and other levels of policing. As well. One, like for instance, So many that is also the whole institution.

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Or Adam, I think so, you know, there is this, Nazi, Oh, let me say, I'm known as a prizes, but there are definitely sympathizers.

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And then like the issue of the double standard record. It's it operates I guess I would say in motor level so obviously some officers they they will have

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Certain sympathy and will not intervene and then no Then there is a whole bunch of other variables depending on the situation.

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Some some of those obviously do not explain the double standard and for instance

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Quite interesting thing that happened oral that the police chief of the time was a black chief of police the first one.

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And he was hired to improve diversity. In the police rent and to be a more community oriented and handle the best differently.

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So I He had a kind of discourse that I should not go that harsh. On the drug because then I should do the same thing with other Which which is kind of odd because you know you don't have like black blacksmith professors with having no trucks.

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Double standard does not apply. So the kind of protests they had because quite different and again it's even on the dismantle moment of the test probably some of you saw this on TV 8 was Auntie right upstream.

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They were really doing. This mental moment of protest, totally available. You know, pushing a lines, lowly but it's always always low.

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And then if there was some, violent behavior or someone moderation dated, it would just grab one person.

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Doing this for 15 min another square would go in and they were rotating like the whole day without sheer gas and sometimes they had horses but they're not booming.

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So they had they did a operation for the whole day. This never happened. So you know you can see the double standard.

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On this sense, you know, I think they, I'm also analyzing after that so for the fourth level when they had the rest it was a rest during a long weekend.

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So these folks want to return attention and if you are arrested on the Friday of a long weekend. Oh, I want to be in jail up to 2.

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Just And they are going to have, you know, a hearing officer that's not necessarily a judge.

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Is after to you know book a hearing with the judge and maybe in a way they are going to get released.

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These folks, they got access to a judge in a salary. I was along with him. A judge.

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So if you organized so when you see that there was like they deceive The best you can have from the police service police cannot believe the population didn't receive these studies.

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They were calling and you know police will not come they would go by law officers.

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They by officers will not come because the police will not let them enter. So they receive like all service from the police.

461
01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:32.000
In porridge So it's quite interesting to see. At the spectrum and we don't have a lot of occasions to to do this comparatively.

462
01:35:32.000 --> 01:35:36.000
So it's kind of a new ground. I'm part of a

463
01:35:36.000 --> 01:35:45.000
Form, that we deal with ratio we need to go social profiling. And one of I start to do research on the, even if I.

464
01:35:45.000 --> 01:36:01.000
Was not the on the political spectrum itself just like how we mobilize law they know the Pretty much, okay, you should focus on that because We don't have a lot of case studies.

465
01:36:01.000 --> 01:36:14.000
On how You have the completely double standard. My accident or how police should work. And I don't think we should like necessarily treat them worse.

466
01:36:14.000 --> 01:36:24.000
I think we should treat them and worse. I think we should treat all the protests as we treat the truck of protests as we treat the truckle protests right which is more like not going to happen.

467
01:36:24.000 --> 01:36:34.000
To do question.

468
01:36:34.000 --> 01:36:46.000
Okay, thank you for your question. Yes, the ethics was a quite a big issue. The thing is that, This is my research is part of a wider project.

469
01:36:46.000 --> 01:36:56.000
We wish I am a research assistant. And this wider project is on the rights of children in 3 situations in shelters.

470
01:36:56.000 --> 01:37:02.000
And so with this we have a collaboration with the Pontificent University, Catholic and Hewegian era.

471
01:37:02.000 --> 01:37:15.000
And so we submitted our research to 2 different organs for for the ethics one in in Geneva, in the rest of Geneva, another one in the season in in Brazil.

472
01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:27.000
And so we have this contact with the person that's been conducting this kind of research. For over 30 years so you already had a lot of grounds on how to protect them and how to navigate this kind of information.

473
01:37:27.000 --> 01:37:48.000
And so, this is kind of something we expected. We did not ask them directly, are you part of the or anything like this because we know this can be a sensitive information but because they are so internalized this and it saw something like a So you use your son of them, they naturally speak about this and in fact there was no shelter that

474
01:37:48.000 --> 01:37:55.000
there is nobody that was at least superficially involved with that like the parents were in prison. Or they come from a region that, of a very cartel and so on.

475
01:37:55.000 --> 01:38:07.000
And the thing is about we just needed to give them extra protection and I don't even say the states.

476
01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:17.000
In the in the in the regions we we lost a bit of grants for comparison in this kind of states because we can give some special dynamics.

477
01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:31.000
But because we need to give this expert protection for them and especially coming to the social media the internet they were eager more than eager to say and to show me how they were connected with their cartels, this kind of music.

478
01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:45.000
Because sometimes it's taken for granted, they also don't play the dangers. And so we need to to make sure that some kind of information also doesn't doesn't come out is not published.

479
01:38:45.000 --> 01:39:00.000
There's a lot of things that I needed to suppress for voices just to make sure they. They cannot be identified by I don't know, skin color or the type of, use that, type of codes that they use, if they have a twins certain.

480
01:39:00.000 --> 01:39:08.000
Areas because even with this kind of information it's a is more sensitive.

481
01:39:08.000 --> 01:39:23.000
So we we have the question. That you asked about treating all of groups the same. I have to learn more about the law that you're your talking about.

482
01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:32.000
The anti-separation. Order that you talked about but so I want to let me address that first.

483
01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:36.000
You know, treating all groups the same. You know, doesn't necessarily work, right?

484
01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:54.000
And so I guess we've got 2 lines of discussion we can have with that, especially if you want to give us some more information about how the anti-separation works.

485
01:39:54.000 --> 01:39:59.000
Are you suggesting that minority groups

486
01:39:59.000 --> 01:40:12.000
You know, our support have a cultural tradition. Are being checked down. In the same way that extremist groups are.

487
01:40:12.000 --> 01:40:19.000
With this lie? Is that what you're suggesting? Please.

488
01:40:19.000 --> 01:40:32.000
Yeah, Flop, France is an extremely Islamophobic country, so I think what's interesting about it is the way that the law in my interpretation was originally developed to target.

489
01:40:32.000 --> 01:40:42.000
So it's called the anti-separatism law and it means it's technically against groups meeting that exclude certain groups of people so it means you can't meet.

490
01:40:42.000 --> 01:40:51.000
Any organization that might meet among only people of color for example or only women can be targeted by that ball.

491
01:40:51.000 --> 01:40:55.000
And so, sorry.

492
01:40:55.000 --> 01:41:10.000
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Yeah. And so, in my analysis it was originally developed to target groups fighting against Islamophobia and anti-racism more broadly.

493
01:41:10.000 --> 01:41:20.000
So I think it's interesting the fact that It's been used against this. You know, anti-Islamophobia groups, but also against an extreme right group.

494
01:41:20.000 --> 01:41:33.000
And also against environmental rights group. So they're sort of groups that including very different groups of people working towards very different goals from the left and the right.

495
01:41:33.000 --> 01:41:40.000
And if you have any thoughts about that. Yeah.

496
01:41:40.000 --> 01:41:55.000
Yes. On the one hand, one of the things I've admired on the part of some of the work said by Daniel Kohler who works on a terrorism in Europe.

497
01:41:55.000 --> 01:42:06.000
In fact, he has a center, a deradicalization. He works on de-radicalization of people who have joined extremist organizations.

498
01:42:06.000 --> 01:42:15.000
And he was affiliated also with me a university in Washington DC in addition to him having his center in New York.

499
01:42:15.000 --> 01:42:25.000
One of the things I've admired is the focus on extremists both on the left and the right.

500
01:42:25.000 --> 01:42:31.000
And that's one of the things I try to talk to my students about that if we're talking about Al-qaeda extremists.

501
01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:44.000
Many of the issues that we see in dealing with them, we also see with white supremacists extremists and it's the latter group that the US has ignored for a long period of time.

502
01:42:44.000 --> 01:43:10.000
But Daniel Kohler's work allows us to look at both. In France. There is this idea of the Republican ideal and you know everyone is a member of the Republican ideal and everyone is a member of the state and any kind of exclusion on the basis of personal characteristics.

503
01:43:10.000 --> 01:43:20.000
Technically shouldn't exist or or doesn't exist. I don't know how that plays out with the anti-separatism law because I haven't really studied it.

504
01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:29.000
But what's your take on it? You, I think you have an opinion, right?

505
01:43:29.000 --> 01:43:40.000
I don't not really I guess I think that the French state is taking advantage of this law that.

506
01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:51.000
You know, they created this law in order to target left-wing groups and then in some cases they have sort of come to use it against extreme right groups.

507
01:43:51.000 --> 01:43:54.000
It was interesting, there's Nazi Ganinfi's here at the moment.

508
01:43:54.000 --> 01:44:13.000
He's from France and so she was saying that it's because the General Assembly don't tell the extreme right group they stated too clearly how How they said it the sort of the racist the racial nature of the French state too clearly and therefore they had to be shut down because it was too explicit.

509
01:44:13.000 --> 01:44:31.000
So I thought that was a really interesting take on it. So I guess I'm thinking about the way that this law that was probably intended to design to target you know the extreme left or even I think not necessarily that extreme left-wing arguments against Islamophobia and racism.

510
01:44:31.000 --> 01:44:39.000
And then having to use it as well or using it being able to use it as well against this extreme right group.

511
01:44:39.000 --> 01:44:46.000
Yeah, but I haven't really gone further than that. This is a good comment for this play.

512
01:44:46.000 --> 01:44:59.000
4 min would be less than that. There is a Oh, the issue on how this We won't follow later on.

513
01:44:59.000 --> 01:45:04.000
And this was a a huge discussion.

514
01:45:04.000 --> 01:45:27.000
We had in Canada during the to protest because you know pretty much there was a claim to have more police powers and people are just okay like no this is not a matter of more places or more police power because this is not going to be mobilized necessary to this is not going to be mobilized necessary to this kind of products.

515
01:45:27.000 --> 01:45:31.000
This is going to affect other kind of products. This is going to affect other kind of products. This is going to affect other kind of products.

516
01:45:31.000 --> 01:45:50.000
So this kind of products just going to affect other kind of products. So you know there is always the issue on especially in the area of Protest my mother major protests, minorities that you may target, you know, make great amount of planet around one phenomenon and then You and that kind of legislation then Those apply and

517
01:45:50.000 --> 01:46:02.000
mobilize strategic because the specific isolation. Well they have people from certain political spectrum affiliations.

518
01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:09.000
Inside or in a position of humanity. So, you know, So, it's, it's interesting.

519
01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:14.000
And I said that, you know, it's interesting in abstract, but I get it's going to be.

520
01:46:14.000 --> 01:46:29.000
He to see how this is going to mobilize this new legislation to by addition players in France. Because this may, you know, make quite well target.

521
01:46:29.000 --> 01:46:42.000
Social representative rights where you think so you know and so on but we unfortunately need to wait See what it went to happen.

522
01:46:42.000 --> 01:46:46.000
We had to cool as a final step.

523
01:46:46.000 --> 01:46:52.000
It's been a great discussion. Thank you very much to all of them. The presentations were great.

524
01:46:52.000 --> 01:46:56.000
And they tell us about it. The presentations working. And they tell us about the contemporary promise of policing.

525
01:46:56.000 --> 01:47:09.000
And they waste police are I mean are re-engage in themselves. In this political and ideological debate and that's something in this political and ideological debate and that's something that we get to be aware of this political debate and that's something that we get to be aware of in France for instance one not only got to be aware

526
01:47:09.000 --> 01:47:19.000
of that in France for instance one not only because it what happens 2 days ago but also there's been a long, not only because it what happens 2 days ago, but also there's been a long, because it what happens 2 days ago, but also there's been a long, discussion about more political representation and participation of police in these issues

527
01:47:19.000 --> 01:47:37.000
and Actually, there was there is a debate on interconnect about this topic now. But other than that, in the same goes to the issue of children in the case and police got a lot to do with the problems of these kids and they were also trying to do or to abuse the relationship.

528
01:47:37.000 --> 01:47:51.000
So police is a central actor in person. Anyway, thank you very much for coming and let's give an applause for them.