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Okay? So abid is going to join us talking about the war of position in global government production networks. The case of the Asia floor wage alliance. Thanks so much. I've been on this stuff. Yeah, sure. Let me just share my screen.

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And so you've got 15 min. I did Do you need a reminder a bit before we finish or not?

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Aabid Firdausi: yeah, that will work. Reminder would help. Yeah. Okay, away that you? Then yeah, sure, I can. Also. can you see my screen?

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Aabid Firdausi: Yes, awesome. Okay?

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Aabid Firdausi: All right.

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Aabid Firdausi: so good morning. Everyone. So I just want to. First thank the organizers for giving me this opportunity.

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Aabid Firdausi: I feel a little bit at home here, not, just because the team of my paper closely matches with the team of the session, but also because I'm engaging closely with the worker, Michelle Ford, and Catherine

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Aabid Firdausi: who seems not to be here right now. Quite unfortunate. But

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Aabid Firdausi: I just want to say that this particular paper is a part of a larger project that I'm actually doing. And I'm currently thinking of how to

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Aabid Firdausi: Pray my dissertation. So if you have like any constructive comments or just to comments, please feel free to email me. I've left my email for your reference.

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Aabid Firdausi: so this is primarily a case to be the Asia of the Alliance, which is

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Aabid Firdausi: the largest Asian alliance of common labor unions. and they were rights groups. it is based on an analysis of documents that have been published by a 4

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Aabid Firdausi: namely, like statements, reports, and campaign documents, and also like in depth interviews with 8 organizers at Afgh. And through this case study. I tried to

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Aabid Firdausi: ask the question as to how this can potentially inform us, what what what forms can labor transnational syntic in 25 century industrial capitalism. And what is the specific rule that's played by labor center transnational organizers in government.

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Aabid Firdausi: global dominant production networks. I know that this is really worthy. But I hope to convince you why, there are so many words in that. in a bit now. the the third question that's already in my paper. But I I am not actually talking about in my presentation, as like taking it, taking to account the the perceptions and ideologies and ideas of these organizers themselves, who are actually doing

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Aabid Firdausi: who are actually doing the painful work of organizing on the ground, and how this can potentially inform our sociology appliances of labor, politics, and social change. And though I don't talk about this explicitly in this presentation, I think that'll actually animate how I try to answer these first 2 questions also.

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Aabid Firdausi: Now,

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Aabid Firdausi: when it comes to contestation in global common production networks. just a brief reminder that brands are considered to be manufacturers without factories, they still hold disproportionate power in global government production networks. they are able to set the terms and conditions of production and so, but they are not held accountable in these networks. And for those of you who are familiar with the structure of global production.

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Aabid Firdausi: You would know that there is a nuanced debate going on between how to best conceptualize the structure of industry production, which is, namely, whether it's a chain metaphor or a network meter for the global value chain framework and the global production framework global production network framework. I use the Gpn framework. because it accounts for the specificity of these non firm actors that I tend to deal with, and also how these non from actors travels between us

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different scales of globalization. When it comes to like the micro the missile as well as the macro level.

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Aabid Firdausi: existing scholarship primarily tends to focus on transnational advocacy networks which has been conceptualized by kick and seeking in the late 19 nineties. these tend to the this really like a heterogeneous groups. But when it comes to like the global government production networks, these primarily compost of fantastic consumption and view the consumer as the primary agent of change. And of course, like it's not as if, like the

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Aabid Firdausi: they exclusively focus on consumers. These groups tend to be in alliances with unions in Latin America and Asia, and so on, so forth. But nevertheless, this flow of solidarity is from not to south. That's what I'm trying to say. And there are global Union federations which tends to again be, largely dominated by unions from the global north.

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Aabid Firdausi: where labor is the key actor again

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Aabid Firdausi: now. But there is now an emerging way of scholarship that focus on Southern forms of labour transnationalism which has been conceptualized differently by Meredith Brooks, talking about like transnational labor alliances, networks of labor activism by, and is a shak

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Aabid Firdausi: all these are really necessary and interact. And they interact with one. I don't have one to pick one thing against the other, all unnecessary in this larger field of contestation. But I think we must necessarily focus on the social, spatial and strategic specificity of Southern Labor Center transnationalism. To account for the fact that these are actors who are not

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Aabid Firdausi: workers are unions, right? They they may be part of unions. They might head unions, but they are not necessarily workers in unions. These are organizers who are are actually helping unions in their everyday work.

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Aabid Firdausi: and I think that was really like, trying to articulate a model of transnational label center organizing.

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Aabid Firdausi: And by transnational, I mean that they operate within nation States. They take advantage of national level installations and legal frameworks, but they also see to bypass them, or they seek to bypass them to a shared vision of struggles that that somewhat goes against the logic of the national bottle. and So

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Aabid Firdausi: when it comes to a fuel. I'm as I said, it's it. It presents itself as Southern alliance. So commonly we're in. It's a neighbour. Ngos is the largest Asian alliance of in global common production networks is founded in the early 2,000 s. and has close connections with the altar globalization movement.

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Aabid Firdausi: connected with the world social forum, and also the new forms of unionization in South Asia. It it it was founded on the premise that you needed, like a regional strategy to combat capital mobility within Asia and the

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Aabid Firdausi: after. I initially was concerned with the Asia flow wage, which was really like a labor-centered living wage which was at which was formulated, based on worker service, bottom-up worker service, and and since the 2,010. They have also started to expand their focus on gender based violence and corporate accountability.

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Aabid Firdausi: Now, what I call as the F one model of transnational labor center organizing. I identify 3 main features, which I think is important. First is that there is a dual organizational structure. Afoa is primarily like an alliance of unions and laborers it has around 50 partners in South and Southeast Asia. But it's also like an organization of organizers who who are referred to as coordinators who work closely with unions on everyday basis. They also employ a hybrid strategy which basically combines anti- sweatshop

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Aabid Firdausi: campaigning that is, So done by like similar to the strategies by transnational advocacy networks in the global north, like anthrop campaigning along with labor organizing and global itself. So it's really like the best of both worlds, we will.

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Aabid Firdausi: And Thirdly, it is locally grounded, grounded, transnational work, and by that I mean, like because of their presence in Asian production countries because of their social, spatial as well as the strategic proximity to workers and unions, they're able to assist unions on their everyday, painful task of organizing, which. And I cannot emphasize this enough

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Aabid Firdausi: when I, during my interviews, one thing that they kept stressing is that they go to the Union offices on a daily basis, trying to help unions with this, framing their strategies, filing complaints with the local codes, trying to think through how to deal with

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Aabid Firdausi: the latest. You know the latest cases of sexual harassment and government factories, things like this that simply cannot be accomplished by Northern android switch or activists. And I think we need to pay attention to this specific specific role that is played by these labor center organizers. And while they are locally ground, they also engage in transnational work right like that, that these are not binaries. Like, we are able to traverse this. Behind these.

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Aabid Firdausi: they are able to leverage these global connections through solidarity alliances

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Aabid Firdausi: with these transitional advocacy networks in the global north.

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Aabid Firdausi: Now, when it comes to evaluating a for like, I wanted to critically engage with 2 papers basically. for a voice, 2,010 paper and Global Labour Journal, which I'm pretty sure, like most people in the room might have a. A. And engage with

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Aabid Firdausi: just as a brief reminder robot has, like full fatigue of it, which I think pretty much. Some of the critiques of transnational labor initiatives which he calls this like false optimism of global label studies. he talks about how they are usually engaged with discursive struggles rather than concrete materials struggle with concrete material games.

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Aabid Firdausi: he talks about how they tend to be trapped in localisms despite global ambitions, and they have an unjustified faith in Industrial Workers

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Aabid Firdausi: with A as the lynchpin of the counter movement against global neoliberalism, and that they do not challenge count hegemonic capitalist structures. And

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Aabid Firdausi: that is, that is a general critique of transnationalism. But I also want to engage critically a little bit with Pot and Gillian's critique of the Asiaflow with initiator whether where they specifically am physically focused on Cambodia and Indonesia, and where they find evidence for how national, economic, political, and institution context, matter. And and they argue, basically that the an absence of our office coalition means that regional approaches can essentially fail.

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Aabid Firdausi: Now.

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Aabid Firdausi: the this is key. And I think, like both these papers may make valid arguments that are true. But also, I just want to point to the flip side of it that discusses struggles, really matter and global government production network well, need firms are image conscious right? Reputational damage is a real threat now. And the second and third point that I really want to emphasize is that, as I said, transnational work can and should be locally grounded. This doesn't mean that they're trapped in localisms. This means that

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Aabid Firdausi: labor organizing never works without really paying attention to those everyday reality that workers and these everyday realities of work is often have to do with like minimum wage violations and gender-based violence and things like that. But having that vision of like a transnational

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Aabid Firdausi: vision of labor, politics is is clearly important. It's really how you traverse this different scale. Right? So and thirdly. I will, totally. The fact that transnational identity is not an ever presenter identity is really contingent on specific circumstances. And the this really depends upon the organizer's actions like this is where, like

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Aabid Firdausi: afore, organizers are labor-centered organizers come into the picture. When we talk about workers and unions being internationalists like, particularly in global government production networks where we are dealing with first time industrial workers, we need to know that

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Aabid Firdausi: unions tend to lack the technical capacity to capture the nuance of global supply chains. Here there are actors that are coming with their own set of resources that can help in framing these strategies. And I think we need to, for some reason the literature that we hasn't paid specific attention to the role played by these organizers. And I think that that that's what I've been trying to do in this paper. And when when

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Aabid Firdausi: when it talk when you talk about, come to hedge money. There are like on the hedge money. I I want to make a distinction between hedge money with the capital edge and count hedge money. It's like under different, under different, within a specific phase and neoliberal capitalism there can be different terrains under which counter hedge money can be waged, and I'll talk that talk about that in a bit

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Aabid Firdausi: now when it comes to for and Julian's paper, I think it is completely true that the persistence of the national institution and political economic context complicates transnational efforts. And this is true. and I want to extend that critique to argue that after has failed to make and roots into China since 2,015 under the new leadership

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Aabid Firdausi: Afwa has complicated relations with Indian national unions, so different labor histories, their political, economic, and cultural contexts do complicate this consensus building. But it's also important to understand that the living wage and demand. Do not trunk minimum wage travels. In fact, we there is a dialectic link to play between these 2 things, and if you go to the earliest documents of a like During my document and answers, they stress that they do not

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Aabid Firdausi: they. They do not insist on a regional living wage struggle. It's really they. Instead, they use the living wage as a figure to

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Aabid Firdausi: that doubles up as a struggle against poverty, level minimum wages. So there is a it it, and and this rests on the recognition of the Afgh figure

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Aabid Firdausi: as a benchmark in the as as a benchmark living wage figure based on labor-centered surveys that have been done. and we can talk a little bit more about this if it comes up on the discussion. So

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Aabid Firdausi: And this is why I want to call this a war of position. And And again, I want to thank Katharine Nastowski for like really concretizing this when this was really like an embryonic idea of my head. So yes, all this time. So

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Aabid Firdausi: you know, like by what of position. You mean that

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Aabid Firdausi: there is a struggle over meetings and values, and that this helps us to struggle, expand our scope of evaluation beyond material victories alone. And And I argue basically that. And we can discuss this like, if the questions come up like in there are 3 terrains in which this particular counter hegemonic war of position

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Aabid Firdausi: place out, but as well like in terms of like, we setting gender well and corporate accountability. And I know that there's a lot of text in the slide right now. But the key point that runs through it is that I was trying to argue for a label-centered vision which holds brands accountable

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Aabid Firdausi: in these 3 different terrains in 3 different forms, and these 3 are interlinked also. So in summary, I want to say that labor transnationalism is really contingent on political opportunities that are available. It's not really an ever present identity. They can coexist. And the activation of the transnational identity really depends upon the actions of these Southern Labor Center organizers. Now, the big question that I want to raise

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at the end of this thing is that in the absence of a party-led internationalism of the twentieth century.

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Aabid Firdausi: can enough for a model of organizing that the 3 features that are highlighted can it be replicated to other industries, and can it be scaled up

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Aabid Firdausi: so? Yes, that's it. Thank you.

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Thanks so much. I bet that's a great start to our session if you could unshare your screen.

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Did you see on this question

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we're going to do questions at the end. So you suggest.

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oh, okay, no, I didn't. They just know the chat's not showing here.

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 okay,

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I mean, it's fine in. We're we're very open to having in principle. It would have been great to have it arranged beforehand, maybe. But that's okay. What we might do.

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So now we might keep yours and Kim's to the end, because they're both in the room. And so, Antonio, if you'd like to go next, we could do that if you would

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like to. I might need help, she said to yourself, so that Antonio can be on the screen. Can I click on Antonio

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PIN? Shall I PIN him? Okay? And mark

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thing, you've been in volunteer. Would you like to come up?

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Okay.

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there's not going to be

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okay, Antonio, are you there? Can you hear me?

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Okay? And you have slides? Do you want to. You can take over Mark.

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Then we are. Let us pass Antonio Porphy.

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Antonio Aravena: and it's a moment to Marc. 7. Me?

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No.

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Antonio Aravena: okay. Well, yeah, that's coming.

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The

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all right.

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They put their upon her alone, or the presentation.

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the

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that he? Okay, so that's not okay.

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Antonio Aravena: Yeah.

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Antonio Aravena: He's on.

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Antonio Aravena: So these are some ideas of a study that I'm finishing.

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What what is it?

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Antonio Aravena: So there is Cindy Kalimo and Tres, and precious traditionalis, Kilobyt and and Chile

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about a trade unionism in 3 multinational corporations that operate in Chile

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Antonio Aravena: he later served as a

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so the first one is Walmart, the second one is the Santander Bank, and the third one is Starbucks. Okay.

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Antonio Aravena: my presentation in 2 big parts

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Antonio Aravena: a.

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The first is to show some productive and labor dynamics. In the 3 cases that I am studying at the international level.

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and the second part is to take a look at what's happening in Chile

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Antonio Aravena: and

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Antonio Aravena: a Cindy Gaddos death of trek castles

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Antonio Aravena: and the tint of manufacturers, you know, and not to buy

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the images which you can see now refer to the 3 trade Union cases of of protest. And the 3 case studies

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Antonio Aravena: again. the Midamos and context of International.

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Antonio Aravena: I I want to ask. I want to.

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So when we look at these 3 cases in the international context. To me there seems that there are several elements that are important to point out.

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Antonio Aravena: and Austria castles. I process of the retro to Russian and Los Angeles and

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Antonio Aravena: a you and I.

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So in the 3 cases, first, there are processes of restructuring in the companies, second, there is a broadening of automation and digitalization.

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In the case of digitalization, this is particularly important in the banking sector in Chile.

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Antonio Aravena: I I,

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Antonio Aravena: Sierra, they are going on localists. Or if you see in us

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Antonio Aravena: ferranimo tempo abertura, the locality of hisinas, and the tint of P.

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So and there's different ways of operating these companies. At the same time there are closures taking place, and elsewhere there are new businesses opening up

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Antonio Aravena: Chemokra. Alas! And Perez.

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So it's important to note that in these cases these are heterogeneous responses. And and there's different ways that these companies are responding.

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And of course, this impacts the labor relations and it impacts the trade unions.

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Antonio Aravena: Aki.

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Antonio Aravena: Lavanka.

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Antonio Aravena: 6 pando and pandemic. Yeah.

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So to give you one example, in the banking sector, teleworking and call centers expanded during the Pandemic

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Antonio Aravena: the entrepreneur and Elena of a millvent.

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At the same time there has been a reduction in the allocation of personnel in Spain, at 13% decline by the end of 2020,

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Antonio Aravena: and and it's just a medical Athena

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Antonio Aravena: imit Ando particular Mentor, Cassover, Brasil. But it's been gorgeous and Mexico

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in contrast, when we see in other cases, particularly in Brazil, but also in Mexico, is an increase in outsourcing

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Antonio Aravena: any time between you soon

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Antonio Aravena: ak in Canada, la Pandemia.

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Antonio Aravena: Foy and Perioto don't de-los in dicatos. Then on Sierra Mocho, the Pedos, Iparctica's anti-semiticalist.

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and something that caught my attention in the literature and in the news the National and the internationally news during the pandemic is that the trade unions denounced anti-union practices

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and lay off. Sorry. Thank you.

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Antonio Aravena: Oh, no, I would.

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Antonio Aravena: oh, no!

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And for

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Antonio Aravena: a

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Antonio Aravena: you know what I said

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Antonio Aravena: lost in the Gato Saviron. And I want to.

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So I'm going to focus on one or 2 cases given the time constraints. But before that, let me talk about. In the case of Chile there is a response to a triple crisis

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Antonio Aravena: when the crisis is the crisis of covid

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Antonio Aravena: going to say one decreases.

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The second crisis is the a political crisis

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Antonio Aravena: in

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Antonio Aravena: and I need them player.

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And the third crisis is an economic crisis that had an impact on employment.

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Antonio Aravena: There are some.

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so we can't get into detail now. But these are 3 very severe crises that impact a trade unionism.

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Antonio Aravena: And at the context of the the three-year-old.

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Antonio Aravena: So what happens in this context of the triple impact, triple crisis

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Antonio Aravena: kilos in vicatos.

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Antonio Aravena: Al-khir and Mojamas importance here.

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So it's that the trade unions take on much more importance. There's a reevaluation

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Antonio Aravena: Akian concurren.

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Antonio Aravena: So who to to who do the workers go to to resolve their problems during the pandemic.

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Antonio Aravena: But I want.

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and one very clear answer is, they go to the trade unions.

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Antonio Aravena: It's in embargo, a surre active and losing the Gatos

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Antonio Aravena: get a massive importance. Yeah. hey? Though? Yes. And retro based

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Antonio Aravena: a a moi complex padas in the Galileo.

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So we see the trade unions being reactivated. However, the laws in our country are very complicated in terms of trade unions and

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Antonio Aravena: a pair of potatoes

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Antonio Aravena: Cape's, and so that syndication.

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So for this reason, we say, we are in an ambivalent situation. On the one hand, there is a reactivation of the unions. But, on the other hand, there are these institutional limitations.

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Antonio Aravena: It see the

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Antonio Aravena: Javascript in Walmart.

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Antonio Aravena: Let me start with the case of Walmart. If there's time I'll go to the other 2 cases, what happened in the case of Walmart.

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Antonio Aravena: the

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first, an acceleration of the technological and organizational changes

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Antonio Aravena: incorporation. The technolog here a system as the out to serve issue the Internet.

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So what did this consist of the corporation of technology, self-service systems and sales for the intern? For by over the Internet

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Antonio Aravena: importantes, a parallel reactive as well as the Syndica Limo, but a directive as well as

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Antonio Aravena: acknowledged.

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Antonio Aravena: And if the context of the pandemic

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Antonio Aravena: yeah in pool set the

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so what happens in this? In this context, in the in the context of this reactivation of the trade unions, Walmart puts in multi-functionality, isn't there?

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Antonio Aravena: Okay.

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Antonio Aravena: the local team of messes and Sido.

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So in the midst of all of this, this redefinition of job categories, redefinition of contracts. And for this crystal less piece.

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It's

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okay. Yeah. This multi functionality of of work tasks. Yeah, thanks.

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Antonio Aravena: Anton says er

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Antonio Aravena: guantas-functional as poly as said on the

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Antonio Aravena: Ian pose. See?

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So what! What multi-functionally, how many different functions, how many different tasks can a worker do in a supermarket

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Antonio Aravena: genesis and til?

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Antonio Aravena: And the's a royalty Tintas at trades

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so in this regard trade unions have developed different strategies.

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Antonio Aravena: and this is a

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sometimes they reject this multi-functionality.

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and some organizations look how to put limits on this multi-functionality multitasking.

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Regulate it.

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Antonio Aravena: You have it that

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Antonio Aravena: he won't travakhal or a Tesla material

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Antonio Aravena: I will.

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Antonio Aravena: Laurel is a so on the multi-level.

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and avoid that workers are subjected to very high levels of stress. As a result of this multitasking.

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Antonio Aravena: how would have been

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Antonio Aravena:  and guaranteed

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Antonio Aravena: a

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so now, if and a difference with the Us. In Walmart, Chile there is a very high level of unionization

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Antonio Aravena: exit and Confederate as soon as yeah.

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So there are many trade unions in Chile there are many federations. There are confederations. The trade union rate in some places not just Walmart could be as high as 80%.

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Antonio Aravena: And

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so there's a lot of force. But the problem in Chile is the form in which collective bargaining takes place.

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So it's it's a enterprise-level bargaining in Chile. It's not recognized to do bargaining at the industry or the sectoral level

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Antonio Aravena: and solo set of processors. pedestrian

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Antonio Aravena: fragmentando, a luxury cynical.

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So all of these processes end up fragmenting trade unionism, trade union action.

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Antonio Aravena: Don't they exceed the Syndicate?

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Antonio Aravena: A Starbucks and Kennedy on, and

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Antonio Aravena: and Chiles a foremost in the cattle?

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Antonio Aravena:  so let me. Let me talk a little bit about the case of Banco Santander, you know later. We could also talk about Starbucks. Starbucks in Chile is one of the very few places that has trade unions, and Starbucks is an anti-union company.

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Antonio Aravena:  so let me finish by providing some reflection conclusions that we're arriving at in our research

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Antonio Aravena: 60 10

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Antonio Aravena: Forolitika's irresciones.

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So it's true that on the one hand, there are policies and decisions that are taken at the global level for these businesses.

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Antonio Aravena: And like this, youns institutional

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Antonio Aravena: there.

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But, on the other hand, it's important to take a look at the institutional conditions. The trade union cultures in order to understand the decisions and changes made by these companies.

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So to give you 2 examples to illustrate this point.

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Antonio Aravena: enter Sector Ban Kario.

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Antonio Aravena: better. Addi, Ferrencia. their sector of Ancario and Brazil

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Antonio Aravena: and Chiles and negotiations. and Brazil Senegal for category airport sector.

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So talking about the banking sector a high level of unionization in both Chile and Brazil. But in in Chile negotiations take place at the Enterprise level in Brazil it takes place at the sector level and Job category level.

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Antonio Aravena: Henrietta, the think of other syndicate.

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So these institutional differences generate different forms of trade union power.

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Antonio Aravena: It's the Miramo's Lakotura syndical Simida Mohloni and the politicians syndicated.

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If we look at trade, union culture and political orientation of the unions, Starbucks in Chile shows us something interesting.

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Antonio Aravena: Anti-syndical

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Antonio Aravena: Al go to him pandemia.

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So in Starbucks, in a global context of a company that's anti-union in the context, difficult context of the pandemic

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Antonio Aravena: pesias are difficult terrace in Chile.

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Antonio Aravena: This starvation

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Antonio Aravena: I like experienced. The starvacilia and the in the gat of Starbucks.

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Antonio Aravena: the inclusive of the heel test. Cynthia is the starvak she left what turns to experience here.

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So, despite these difficulties in Chile, we have an example of of trade union expansion. Growth in Starbucks is the case now that is known in other countries of the world. In fact, trade union leaders, organizers have shared their experiences.

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Antonio Aravena: So an as to the and test

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Antonio Aravena: is on a

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Antonio Aravena: essence in the Calismo K, second through. Yeah.

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Antonio Aravena: you know. But I think it's a full dimension. I, Laura.

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Antonio Aravena: there a moment of syndicate.

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So it's also important to note that the workers of Starbucks are young workers. The workers of Starbucks are university students there. There are many women workers in Starbucks. So the trade union that's being formed in Starbucks is a movement of new workers. It it shows us the renovation

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of trade unionism.

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Antonio Aravena: Yeah, thank you very much.

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And thanks a lot mark for the impromptu interpretation. Antonio, if I can get you. Yes, thank you. What we're going to do now is I'm going to share our screen.

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yeah.

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a bit. Can you see that?

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Yes, yes, I can see it excellent. So I think I've worked out what happened with Catherine. But she was originally going to come in person, and I took everyone's time zones into account when I was scheduling But then, since she didn't make it in person. It's 2 Am. In the Uk. So I'm suspecting that maybe the reason she's not joining us.

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but if she comes at the end we'll put her at the end. But for now, so I know we'll bring you up. Thanks, and someone is going to talk to us about solidarities with different immigrant workers and Alliance building and domestic workers movements in South Africa.

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Okay.

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of

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good morning. Everyone My name is Solan Sherma, and I'm a Phd candidate and department of sociology. what I'm going to present today is based on my doctoral research, which is a comparative project between India and South Africa. It compares domestic workers movement in these 2 countries. But what I'm going to talk about is how international migration shapes domestic workers, movements, politics in South Africa. So there's no India in this presentation that I'm happy to engage with.

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So I think, before talking about how international migration shared domestic workers, movements, politics. It's important to establish

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the significance of South Africa as a country as a destination for international migration. So as per the most recent world bang data, almost 5% of South African population is foreign born. And this is just the official data. please remember that. You know, when we are talking about low income migrants A lot of it is undocumented, which is actually the case in case of domestic work.

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in case of South Africa, a lot of international migrants come from rest of Africa and Southern African countries like Malavi, Zimbabwe, and Mozambique.

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But

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in the last 2 decades there has been a rising violence and incidents of like xenophobic you know, activities against international migrants which has made international migrants in South Africa a mainstream political issue.

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 there is a long history of a migration control regime, and a lot of scholars have written on it. I'm not in conversation with that scholarship. I just want to emphasize, because during apartheid and colonial era, they were very strict to migration control regimes in place. What I'm interested in is like, how in democratic South Africa, international migration is shaping domestic workers, movements, politics. So

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very briefly,

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Janet Nakamway. puts it like, you know, the the the South Democratic South Africa and its immigration laws are very hostile towards international migrants.

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So what I don't have here is, you know, a graph that shows South Africa in relation to high income countries. Because when we talk about destination for international migration, it's mostly developed world. you know, from Australia to United States. Uk.

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Even in that graph South Africa shows a steady rights since mid 2,000. But among countries which are of similar income levels like South South Africa, South Africa is a leader as a destination for international migration.

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And once again, you know, these figures these numbers only account for what is official. I think the actual numbers of migrants in South Africa should only be more and not less

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so. What I'm going to discuss here is that, how does growing significance of immigrants shape domestic work as movements politics in South Africa by growing significance. I primarily mean the growing number, you know, and which is acknowledged in you know, by organizations. And it's increasing presence in the mainstream politics and political discourse.

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So a brief overview of what domestic work is like in South Africa, it employs 10% of a total South African workforce in this occupation 15% of all women workers who are as domestic workers.

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I think the the second point should not surprise you that it's overwhelmingly women and black women.

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But South Africa in some ways democratic South Africa is pioneering in extending labour rights to domestic workers which includes, like social security benefits and the right to form unions.

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But despite these you know positive forms of recognition. Unionization and domestic workers, presence in civil society as an organized group has been limited. Actually it has decreased since the end of apartheid and the you know. Absolutely brilliant work by sharing Alli shows how democratization in South Africa actually led to demobilization of this grip of workers.

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So this again, just to give you a sense of what is the, you know? Proportion of international migrants in paid domestic work? as an occupational category compared to other occupational groups. So these are different occupational groups which are in South African senses.

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as you can see in domestic work, it's like the most number of like migrants present. Once again, you know, it's occupations, occupation categories like domestic work, elementary occupation, which are likely to have more. you know. So I think these estimates are underestimation of actual extent.

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so in this presentation, I'm drawing on my ethnographic field work in South Africa, which primarily took place in the province of Houghton, where Johannesburg and the Shannon Pretoria is. This is where most organization that organized domestic workers work with them are concentrated.

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The field work

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for this presentation! I am drawing on qualitative interviews with different stakeholders and participant observation which included attending meetings of these unions and organizations and the participating in protests, workshops, etc.

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Once again, just to you know what the field work looked like. So over a period of one year I conducted interviews with various group of actors which are relevant.

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So In South Africa these are the 4 organizations which constitute the universe of domestic workers rights movement. So at the top you see a South African Domestic Service and Allied Workers Union, which is the oldest domestic workers union in the country

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and at the bottom the 3 organization that you see are more recent actually post 2,015. So when Sharine Ali wrote her book there was only like a the organization at the top. But now the organizing space of domestic workers looks very different. And there's some basic information about what their association strength is like, where they are.

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what I want to emphasize here is that the organization at the top, like the top, 2 organizations primarily work with native born South African domestic work. Now, what I mean by that is that it's not like they are actively turning migrants away, but their membership base as these organizations share, consist of workers who are, you know, South Africans.

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In contrast, the organization at the bottom to primarily work with migrants. They also say that you know, it's not like we are not working with like local South Africans, but they are membership primarily consist of international migrants, most of whom come from Southern African countries.

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So I would like to start my discussion with the you know, Satsaw, and of those The organization at the top which primarily work with the native born South African domestic workers. So how international migrants become an issue

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for these unions is that as domestic workers gain, right? Since 1994 in South Africa, increasingly employers started replacing local workers with the International migrants because they did not want to have both workers who could bargain better. You know who demanded maternity leave, who demanded weekly leads and other benefits which the law you know, provided them protection for

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so organizations. see a presence of immigrant workers that if they are not organized and they continue to be vulnerable immigrant workers, they can cause an erosion into You know, native South African workers, rights and domestic workers rights as a whole.

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So these unions do have migrant workers as their members, but very small in number, so you can count on fingers. When I used to attend their meetings a very few. you know, migrant workers from Zimbabwe, Malawi.

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The leadership primarily consists of. you know nature upon South Africans, even though, like, you know, there are more and more international domestic workers in South Africa.

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So there is this sense in these 2 unions in particular, that migrant workers do not want to join unions like, you know, they are not interested in being part of the Union. So they also sometimes show this you know, like they don't know why that is the case like that's what like. When I spoke with the top leadership and some of the grassroots. organizer. This is what they had to say.

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but most importantly, often, they emphasize. And this is a, you know statement which is rehearsed by both from top leadership to grassroots organizers that we do not distinguish between. you know, local South African workers and international workers.

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So this is just to show, you know, how these organization which primarily work with South African workers actively try to recruit a international migrant. So I accompanied You know, these unions and their recruitment drives 5 min. Okay.

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recruitment drives. And a lot of times. One thing I want to point out is that when they approach a worker they never speak to workers in any of the local languages, Zulu or Kosa. They start the conversation in English, and as they point out that they cannot assume that first, the worker they're going to talk to is a South Africa, and, second, that they cannot assume that they are from. You know that ethnicity like it could be Zulu cause, or any other ethnicity.

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so.

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I think this is one of those statements, and they were like in similar visits. I noticed that they tell workers repeatedly that it does not matter whether you are local or international, and whether you have papers or not.

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So this is a photograph from a recruitment drive, and which organizers from Satsau in Cape Town, talking to workers outside a Shopping Mall and telling them about the Union, and the same thing, telling them that it does not matter whether you are local or an international worker.

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But this has not been enough. And as a result, international migrant workers in South Africa are building their own organizations. So in 2,018 is we Domestic Workers Alliance, which is an Ngo, came into existence

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and Milwaukee, which is migrant workers. Union of South Africa, was founded in 2,015. We also used to be zealous, which is Zimbabwean Workers Union of South Africa, because a lot of international migrants in low income occupations in particular tend to be from Zimbabwe.

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Now these organizations think that migraine, you know, I'm using migrant and international migrant interchangeably. But you know what I'm talking about. So they believe that migrant workers do not find representation in you know, unions which have existed, and that's why they need separate representation.

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they emphasize that they are not exclusively working with migrant workers.

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And again, like they think that migrant workers issues are separate.

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So this is my interview with the Emitaki who, used to be a domestic workers employer and who co-founded is the the Ngo and her logic of why, you know, international migrants do not want to be part of unions is very important because they went over, you know, they multiple of the fact whether they wanted to have a union or an Ngo.

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and they decided to have an end. You, because, according to them, the other person is Maggie, who used to work with Amy. and they decided to find found is we excuse me.

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And the idea was that domestic workers from other countries wanted to do something, but they did not want to be part of a union which are considered contentious in these words.

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okay, so I will quickly wrap up and then conclude, you know, despite these efforts from both sides to you know, international migrants working with you know, local domestic workers. And the unions working with international migrants, there is still, often a sense of ambivalence. So here I'm talking about this.

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you know. Conversation with the senior leader from Satsao.

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who? I think it captures. How? for Domestic Workers Union, which have, you know, historically focused on South African domestic workers, find it difficult to actively work with the international migrants because they are not only struggling with international migrants. what is domestic workers issues, or what we're constructed as domestic workers issues, but also you know what is like residents permits.

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So

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I will summarize what's happening here again, another recruitment visit in which you know, when organizations go and recruit they have to engage with what workers who are not part of the Union thinking. And in this case this is what I got to witness. And this conversation happened in Kosa, and which was later translated for me. that. They think that. you know, international migrants

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are taking their jobs away. So some local domestic workers can look at it in that way.

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What is important is what Gloria? who is an organizer from Satsau, told these workers. So you try to work with what you know workers are thinking on the ground.

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and I will say, one part of consciousness raising building is to

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engage with these sentiments, but what was equally important, that after this conversation was over, what Gloria had to said to me.

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and I quote.

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people say xenophobia and all, to refer to such sentiments. But these people South African workers are losing their jobs. We don't say that migrants don't have a right to jobs, but a large proportion of jobs should be for South Africans.

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So

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I think this is that you know you are trying to work, you want to have solidarities. But there is this uncertainty, this ambivalence which? you know, these organizations often have to encounter.

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So

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yeah, I will leave it at that. But I just want to say that you know it's, you know, extending solidarity along occupational identity. But when it comes to citizenship status, there is a lot of uncertainty and ambivalence. Thank you.

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Thanks so much for that. And now I call on.

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It's Kim to wrap up, and Kim doesn't have a presentation

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slides, so we're going to have him at the front. But I just will stop sharing screen first, so everyone can see us.

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You can stand at the podium, and if I can find. go on, PIN,

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I don't know. You'll have to work on how to feed yourself to this great anyone. I had a PIN Kim to the screen.

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Aabid Firdausi: us to the screen. I think it's already penned.

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Aabid Firdausi: I I can see you.

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We can just see how these things

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I'm not a few chance. recognize. Good afternoon. Thank you. Okay. good. Good morning. I'm delighted to be here and be with all of you. I'm going to approach things a little differently than some of the other people in that I have been consciously working on global labor solidarity, literally, for 40 years since 1,983.

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So I'm gonna give a little different viewpoint. Perhaps. First of all, I want to say. I'm delighted to see the explosion of interest and and research about labor unions, particularly in the so-called developing countries. I think this is really exciting Workers in general have long

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been helping each other even across international borders. So perhaps the highlight historically, was the British textile workers who refused to work cotton from enslaved people during the Us. Civil War in the 1860 S.

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 And this solidarity existed for a while, and then we had the course of the Cold War, and that really is a period where the Us. And the Uk. basically cut off any relations with anything to do with the Soviet unions and things like that. But where this re-emerges, this international solidarity re-emerges in the 1970 S.

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Now, when I talk about international labor solidarity. I'm talking about both building support for workers around the world with each other. But also I'm so I'm art also, including efforts to stop labor imperialism.

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because this is this is basically what the Afl CIO has been doing is engaging in labor imperialism. And I've long been using that term.

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but I'm going to argue that the 1,978, roughly 1,978 to 2,010 period. It was a crucial period in building global labor solidarity, the number of things that happened. So, for example, I was delighted to hear the the brother from Chile, because one of the first and most important things, I would argue, is Fred Hirsch's work to expose the Afl. CIO's role in the coup in Chile in 1,973.

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And, by the way, this is the fiftieth year since the Chilean coup, and we're going to be having a protest. Movement and educational Conference in Washington, DC. On September tenth

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The Chili coup was was the first 9 11 for those of you that use that reference? but but Freddie exposed their role in the coup and did it in 1,974, 75. This is really important we have. Now, this is also, by the way, should contextualize this a little bit. In the 78 to roughly 80 period, we see the emergence of new unions in South Africa and Brazil and the Philippines.

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Okay.

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Now, also, you. In this earlier period, you see the International, Longshore and Warehouse workers, Union, the the Us. West Coast dockers. They refuse to handle military so Goods for chile, and also cargo for South Africa.

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We had a journal that probably none of you. Most of you have never heard of, and that was international labor reports, which was a by monthly journal that was carrying news and information literally from around the world.

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you also had the Kmu, which is the the radical wing of the labor movement in the Philippines, of which I've done a lot of research on Kmu launched their international solidarity affair. As far as I can find. It's it's unique in the world. They invite workers and labor leaders from around the world to come to the Philippines for a 10 day period around May Day.

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and they take you out into the field. You get out in the provinces. You don't. It's just not a bureaucratic, celebratory thing. You get to go out and see how workers living things like this. It's an amazing program if you get the chance. I strongly encourage you to go out, because if they do a a great job also, Canadian workers, as Kathryn Nstosky has documented, built a lot of solidarity, first with South Africa, but also around Palestine.

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There was the emergence in this period of Sigter, the Southern initiative on on global trade union rights. It was a bottom up effort to to build solidarity among workers in the global South.

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You also in the us. You had the rise of us labor against the war where us and Iraqi workers were working together during the Us. Invasion of Iraq.

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There also was a big challenge to the Afl CIO. foreign policy program in in in 2,004 we got the California State Afl CIO which was one sixth of the entire organization to unanimously condemn the Afl. CIO's foreign policy and their labor imperialism.

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This went to the National Convention, and we got we got sabotaged by workers, by by labor leaders who changed our. So the resolution from condemning afl CIO foreign policy to one praising afl CIO policy, and then they wouldn't let us even even speak on the issue.

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And then, in 2,010, I brought out a book on the Afl CIO's foreign policy.

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So by the early 2,000 s. We see top-down oppression being challenged by activists and more rank and filers trying to get involved.

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And, in fact, Catherine Scott, Nestowski, quotes Ronnie Monk, saying, you know, in 2,010 that levels levels that were achieved. Since then were far beyond what people were even dreaming about in the 1970. S. There has been much more of this work. Now I'm going to argue.

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Please put this. I'm going to argue that this period, 1,978 to 2,010, is crucial to understand. And it's not well understood.

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Okay, and particularly for those of you who are researching. today I think it's important that you know of the of the work that happens in this earlier period. It's it's unknown. there's a lot of confusion about it. but it's very crucial, and I think not that we had all the answers.

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but that there's experiences and things to learn from. So, for example, this is when the the emergence of social movement Unionism came up, and this concept has been one that has been

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debated. It's been used in many different ways. It's been very confused work. Now I'm going to plug some my own work. Just simply so I. I want to let you know it's available. My latest book is called Building Global Labor Solidarity Lessons from the Philippines, South Africa, Northwestern Europe, and the United States.

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Okay, it just came out in 2,021. It has not gotten any attention. That's why I'm trying to let you know about it because most of the work has been online. Some of it, some of it has never been published before, but it's looking, and it's it's it's a series of my writings over the years, trying to understand what

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what I saw now. Most of my research has been on the Kmu in the Philippines, and, in fact. By the way, my, my 1,996 book, which has not been surpassed.

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is online for free. And I can give you the URL, if anybody's interested.

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But I think our understanding of international labor solidarity is becoming more sophisticated and more developed. And it's exciting.

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And I argue that there's more research that's needed on labor on the global South and also integrating global, the global south into the global labor market movement. Excuse me. All right. Now, I'm arguing that most

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of the work on global labor solidarity and I'm I'm seeing this change. I used international labor solidarity up to about 2,010. I'm now using the term global labor. I think this is a better term than transnational. But but that's something that we can. We can discuss and and debate over the years. But

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but one of the things in a lot of this work and this international global labor of solidarity is that we've taken the unions as they are, and I'm going to argue that we have to change them, that workers have to change them.

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Now. The work that I've done, like, I say, has been profoundly affected by the Philippines, and one of the things about the Philippines that I think is important for everybody to understand is that

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they have gone and educated their members, their rank and file members. They are not just activists, they are not just shop stewards, but they actually have an active program of getting every individual in every union

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through a program of of trade union education. And what's really interesting about this is that the Kmu's version of of what I call a social movement. Unionism

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is is different than anybody else's. the South African situation has changed. This is Brazil, but the Filipinos have it, and that they understand that the conditions on the shop floor are tied into the national and international situation in which their countries are enmeshed.

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So that they're saying they're saying themselves need to change the whole global economy. So they're taking an extremely wide version. But they're going down. And they're and they're talking. They're bringing this even to people who are absolutely illiterate.

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So it's been a. It's been a very conscious building. Now. Why this is so important is the Philippines has suffered tremendous. The Kmu suffered tremendous repression.

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They lost their top. Their top labor leader in the Kmu was assassinated, brutally assassinated in 1,986. There have been people that have been assassinated throughout the country. There were over 200 identified death squads in the country. But in the 1980 S.

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Okay, every trade union leader south of the big northern big island of Luzon, which is the Northern one, but every Trade Union labor leader south of there was listed by name on death squad, hitless by the late 19 eighties.

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so they have been under tremendous pressure. And yet, because they've built so solidly, they've been able to survive. Yes, they've taken losses. There's no question but that they have survived and and still have an organization. Over 125,000 members is important.

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I think we need to learn from their experiences. And I think there's some things that we have learned that we need to generalize. So I'm going to argue that labor has got to understand that its scope must be global. We can no longer concentrate on just the national

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as the scope of what we're talking about. So, in other words, that that yes, you may want to work on your particular national situation in South Africa or China, or whatever. But you've got to understand some in a in a

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global context.

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Okay, I also going to. I'm going to argue that labor cannot be separated from its community

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or from other social movements. They must transform our unions from business unions where they're only interested in the particular work wars

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to one that sees unions working with people in the community to change things, to improve things for their whole society. So it's got to be more than just trying to get more money and better working conditions to to doing that. That's absolutely essential. But they've got to go further that they've got. I argue that they've got to work to improve life for all of their

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 for all the people that want to enhance life. So here I'm arguing the need to reorient ourselves from away from economistic approaches, such as focusing on bargaining and see that a larger approach. Global life enhancement.

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it! We're in bargaining. Might be a tactic used to enhance that. But it's not being at salt. A, now, a a new initiative that I'm that is happening in the United States. That I'm part of is a thing called a thing called La Pio. It's got a long acronym. It's it's short. For if you really want to know labor education project for Afl CIO foreign operations.

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but what we're trying to do is build solidarity among workers across global lines. And like, for example, like, I say, we're working with some Chileans to do the protest around the fiftieth anniversary of the coup. But I think what we've got to go on. I think that building solidarity by itself.

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not enough. I think that we've got to. We've got to

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get labor to focus on a particular project. And I think the one that we ought to do is I think it's important for labor to take on the issue of global climate change.

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What I'm seeing in the Us. And and and from other places around the world is that we are not getting the leadership that we need at the corporate government social levels, and that labor is the only force that can that has a chance to address this. So this means actually challenging capitalism and some of the limitations that we have, we have to think out of the box

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we have to. We have to get our labor leaders. We can't just assume they understand the importance of that. We have to organize within our unions, to get to, to get the our labor leaders to take this on. But I'm I'm suggesting that there's no other force that can do this

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and that if we don't do this, if we don't succeed literally, millions and millions of people are going to suffer, not only in places like Southern Vietnam, where 40 million people are at risk, or the or the Bangladesh Delta. But even in the United States we have, we have a river in the Southwest call the Colorado River. That's drying up. This is going. This is where 40 million people in the Us. Get their electricity in their water. From

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these are issues that we've got to talk about. I can't go further because of time limitations. But I want, I think we need to look at this global labor solidarity to enhance the life experiences of everyone in the world, not just in the North, not just in the South, but all of us. Thank you very much.

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Okay. thanks, Kim, for browsing.

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call to action. There, we'll now move to questions. If you're online, and you'd like to show us your face now, it'd be a great time, because I've moved to the the gallery view.

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Who would like to kick us off?

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And it's

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the should you mind for them? Yeah.

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My my question or comment is to orbit specifically.

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Thank you. My name's Andrews. Beside. Note. Sorry I'm from the University of fort here in South Africa. and I really appreciate you returning to that to the boroughoy piece of Pulani and Pollyanna.

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because he raises the he raises the issue of of structure and agency in a way.

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And I think something borough I missed in that piece is the fact that

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a lot of the people working on trade unions going global were also

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developing new approaches to understanding. Bargaining power. And I think Beverly Solver is really important there, with the development of Eric Olen writes.

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structural and associational power. And and and that's been kind of that's been developed into what I think, what is now known as the power resources approach

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And so in a way, my comment is, I really like your using the global production network approach, they rather than the global global value chains one and and and I think if you're going to go down a gram, she in line it, it could be useful to combine the the Gp. In approach with a power, resources, approach, and understanding they. They seems to be a kind of a a a

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increasingly. People combining those 2 approaches! Gpn. Approaches, and and the power is also approach to understand how how agency can be backed up, backed up

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by power and and and not just the you know the Polyannah approach. So it's yeah. It's more a comment, I guess, than a than a question. But you welcome to to to to comment on that. Thank you. I bid we might leave you to ruminate on that comment. Mike.

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thanks, Mike Gillen, from the University of Western Australia.

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Just a quick comment for a bit. Given your engaging and thanks very much for engaging with the paper that Michelle and I wrote on the Asia Floor Wage alliance. It's fantastic to see. I think you mentioned at 1 point in the presentation that we are running an argument that you know the the minimum wage trumps

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the age of floor wage alliance. Sorry for using the word trump. Everyone. I feel like swearing in public, particularly when you're flowing a long way to get away from that.

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But I I don't think it was quite what we're suggesting. I think we're more I mean, actually, I think the way we conceive of it is that the living wage discourse and I think you're right to use the term discourse, because that has been in a way an important achievement of that initiative, plus plenty of others of foregrounding, you know, living wage as a discourse and as an aspiration. I think that's an important achievement.

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It's not so much that that you know trump's. It's more that what we observed is that the attention of the unions that we spoke to was fairly and squarely on minimum wage determination processes, because it's a concrete and achievable outcome.

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You know, there's institutions behind it where you can actually achieve some gains for workers.

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whereas the aspiration of a regional flaw for wages seemed to them very distant. Now, the other part of it was, they didn't really have regular contact with the age of 4 Wage alliance. That's what they told us, they said. Yes, we've met them. There were some events.

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It was sporadic. It wasn't really very sustained.

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And that's not just a problem for Asia floor wage alliance. I think any kind of transnational network. whether it's a union network union. Ngo. It's very difficult to sustain it.

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You know, you need resources. You need

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coordinators, and you need projects, organizing projects, mobilizations that bind people together. So guess that I'd like you to comment a bit about that challenge. Maybe, Kim, you could comment on it, too, because it relates to your presentation when you think about things like Sick Tour.

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which was an initiative that was coordinated by a dear colleague of Tom and I's Rob Lambert, who's a former R. C. 44 President. He he was really driving sick to. It was really hard to sustain those initiatives. I think we need to really think that through.

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And I'll take the chair's prerogative and pig it back a tiny bit on that. I guess. The other piece of the puzzle that I was reflecting on when you were talking your paper through abid is the the politics of claiming. So if the Asia floor wage claims that unions are driving

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its activities in these countries and in Cambodia and Indonesia. At least the case was that it was where it was being driven at all at a national level. It was an Ngo and the unions. Yeah, they had had some engagement, as Mike said, but they really didn't rate it. So I think there's a you know, we've seen in lots of cases where coalitions, organizations, even global unions, can claim the work of local people

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and put words into their mouth, as it were. So I guess for me. That would be the other element of that for you to to respond to So lots of things for you to think about. We might give you an opportunity to respond to all the comments so far, and then we'll take another round of comments and questions.

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Aabid Firdausi: Do I respond now? Yes, please awesome. So thank you both. It's awesome that you both in the same room. But yes.

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Aabid Firdausi: unions tend to consider minimum wage as the realistic goal. And a 4 organizers also consider that to be the most realistic thing, and they are well aware that this is really like an aspirational goal. But when I talk to the organizers they were saying that

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Aabid Firdausi: 5 years before it was incredibly difficult for unions to even think about writing to brands

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Aabid Firdausi: or bring brands to the bargain people, or, you know, talk about like violations and factories. That's what unions and government supply chains are coming global production networks to But right now there is a there is at least some recognition in among some unions that they should bring brands to the table. And I think that's a small.

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Aabid Firdausi: modest achievement, a modest step forward. And those are the things that I'm actually trying to talk about when it comes to the weed struggle. I

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Aabid Firdausi: I completely agree that both are 4 organizers as well as paper unions are engaged in memories, struggles, but the recognition of the Afgh demand, I think, is important in various platforms, as you said, like the UN. Special rapid year on Bangladesh, recently came up with the report where they were referring to the figure. trying to talk about how this was so far.

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Aabid Firdausi: the wages that workers get paid are so far below what they need

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Aabid Firdausi: to. to get a decent standard of living. Regarding the second question hard to bind unions together. That's extremely true. It's in, in a completely resource, constrained organization like Afgh, I always try to like in my head. It's like, really like a small organization trying to do really big things. And that's that's a persistent struggle. I actually do not have an answer to that. But they have survived

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Aabid Firdausi: for close to 15 to 2015 years, which is kind of remarkable, given the fact that there has not been any you know, and they have only grown. And that's what I'm trying to say when we talk about. There are specific conjunctions which

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Aabid Firdausi: enables the growth of these networks. For instance, it Afgh gained a lot of recognition for their work during the COVID-19 pandemic, and even the 4 organizers never anticipated that nobody anticipated it. So I don't know. It's about like really doing the everyday work of organizing and putting into work. And just

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Aabid Firdausi: it's it's and I'm not saying that everything is unpredictable. But

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Aabid Firdausi: it's it's really like contingent on specific political opportunities. That's what I was trying to say. And about the politics of claiming I think that's also a limitation of my paper that I actually engage only with a 4 organizers. That's what I've been trying to do, and that's why I wanted to know whether this could be scaled up to a a project where I talk across like different levels of of like the unions and the workers, and try to see how that into place. But

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yes, I completely agree with your point that that is a persistent tension. So thanks for that. Yeah. And I think that plan is fantastic and as absolutely necessary, because we always have to look at things from different viewpoints, especially when it is about discourse of right. Anyway, enough from us another round of questions. yeah, sure you'll come on. Come on, Ken.

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Sorry it's okay.

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Mike, you're you're absolutely right. One of the biggest problems is maintaining these, these global or international operations. There's no question, I think, one of the things that that that we can do for this is in writing and doing our research

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and communicating it, sharing it out on the world level. Is that something that we can do? So even if we can't ideally, we provide all kinds of resources, and most of us aren't rich and can't do that, you know.

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but at least in the research that we're doing in sharing and comparing. And look at this, this is stuff that can be shared now on the Internet, and it's a a totally different tool than we had in the seventies, and up to early 2,000 that we can share. And we've got to know about.

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Part of the thing, I think, is that and one of the frustrations for me is that, despite my work on the Kmu that I've put out and I have tried to circulate globally is how little it's been picked up in the literature and stuff I think we need to

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help to celebrate when we know of good work is, even if it disagrees with us. Let's celebrate that work and say, Look, I think this this study is important or or and here's what I agree with. Here is what I did. So we can discuss that stuff.

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And I think Rob, O'brien's book on on Sigour is is an important work that we need to look at. So we see how they've how they've been trying to build global solidarity.

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Thanks, Mitchell.

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thanks, Kevin. Don't go too far. We might need you up again. So I am Pablo ped as Amala from the University of Chile, and thank everyone for your amazing presentations. I really like them, and thank you, Kim, for mentioning the Afl. C. O. Involvement in chile, which is not many people. Why, it's our off. So my question is for zon I for your

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I really I really like your presentation. I enjoy it a lot, and you mentioned at the beginning that you are comparing 2 cases. So I wonder if you have found similar, like a distinctions or splits

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in your other case, because what you show here is very. It looks familiar to what happened in Chile like 20 years ago, where, in a context of rising migration, Chilean domestic workers form a union. But they didn't integrate into the Union to Peruvian domestic workers which were like a minority.

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and they approve, and domestic workers decided to form their own union and and see the present day, There is a huge, like a gap between the unions, and they essentially hate each other so that they they, they, they don't interact with each other. There are metals, accusations between them, and I think that's not good for building like solidarity. So

431
01:25:36.630 --> 01:25:46.529
I would like to you to know what you think about this in your other case. Okay, I'm going to collect a couple more questions, Tom, and I think, Chris, you had one, and maybe Stephen as well.

432
01:25:48.670 --> 01:26:07.090
Tom Barrett, from the University of Western Australia. My question is also for so I'll and this is just sort of a more material question about the migrant experience of the domestic workers, and I was just wondering what they're sort of deceived in actual exposure to deportation for breaching labor laws given their undocumented migrants is.

433
01:26:07.090 --> 01:26:32.519
and whether that shapes the the capacity to organize the workforce because I know it. In Australia there's sort of a documented migrants still face deportation if they break breach labor laws, and it's a real barrier to organizing and create some real power imbalances between employers and employees. So I was just wondering how sort of their temporary migrant status and how they sit with relation to immigration regulations, shapes the organising and building of power in this workforce.

434
01:26:34.710 --> 01:26:45.510
Okay, this is Chris Tilley for those on Zoom. I'm going to start with a question for Antonio, and which I'll say in Spanish, and then translate. And then I I also have a question for so now.

435
01:26:45.630 --> 01:26:50.570
I'm told you I don't get out parallel.

436
01:27:20.900 --> 01:27:38.969
It's it's been me pretty good. So my question was, just to what extent are they? The unions in Starbucks, Walmart and and Bako. Sometimes they're actually putting a priority on building international solidarity and alliances, because it can be a tough thing to convince the membership to

437
01:27:38.970 --> 01:27:53.249
to buy into that. for some of all I I'm just, you know. I I think of Sarah Schwider's work on the Hong Kong Domestic Workers, Union, which where she talks about. Sort of it. It's split along ethnic lines, and then sort of re

438
01:27:53.480 --> 01:28:03.329
coagulated in a sense. So. And I think you know Matthias Mendesis work on the platform workers, first organizing by ethnic groups and then

439
01:28:03.520 --> 01:28:17.969
coalescing. You know, I mean there. There are unsuccessful examples like the one published escape. But there are also successful examples, and I'm wondering if there's any discussion among these organizations about maybe not merging, but at least forming alliances.

440
01:28:18.820 --> 01:28:21.579
And, Stephen, we might grab your question.

441
01:28:25.010 --> 01:28:32.859
Yeah, I just. I'll try to make it quick. 2 questions. One for a bead is, you've talked about the war position. Well, what's the link between that and the war of maneuver

442
01:28:33.410 --> 01:28:39.279
and the I wonder if you put some thoughts to that in a full gram? She.

443
01:28:39.460 --> 01:28:54.789
I guess, circle. And for Kim I guess, partly because I was trained. I am Canadians trained in the Canadian labor movement. Labor imperialism is something we take pretty seriously as a challenge to global solidarity.

444
01:28:54.820 --> 01:28:58.260
And I'm just wondering where you're at now

445
01:28:58.600 --> 01:28:59.670
with

446
01:29:00.400 --> 01:29:21.370
global solidarity and perhaps what some people are arguing are new types of imperial imperialism arising from all, even a polycentric world, not just from the Us. But Canada exercising labor, imperialism, and so called solidarity efforts. And I don't want to be too provocative. But when is it time to take maybe clear Lane?

447
01:29:21.840 --> 01:29:31.150
For you know global North unions and and rethink completely what a decolonized global solidarity looks like.

448
01:29:32.820 --> 01:29:39.439
okay, Antonio, if you're there, you've just put your screen off again. But maybe you could answer first. And thank you, mark.

449
01:29:54.550 --> 01:29:58.170
I want to show you this.

450
01:30:05.650 --> 01:30:08.090
Antonio Aravena: Yes, in the

451
01:30:13.890 --> 01:30:15.580
Antonio Aravena: last solely that you have no one.

452
01:30:16.260 --> 01:30:23.370
So one of the very last encounters that were done with Starbucks workers had as a title as a slogan, the Global Solidarity.

453
01:30:33.980 --> 01:30:38.089
Antonio Aravena:  I'm not going to sell a seminar.

454
01:30:38.640 --> 01:30:41.770
Antonio Aravena: They.

455
01:30:41.870 --> 01:30:45.610
Antonio Aravena: Sam bin Khalogon are going to center of the studios

456
01:30:45.850 --> 01:30:59.810
Antonio Aravena: on all. In a case. So these have been some very interesting experiences. The unions have organized seminars, seminars with activists from the United States with labor centers, with Ngos.

457
01:31:00.610 --> 01:31:03.760
Antonio Aravena: and then

458
01:31:04.450 --> 01:31:11.580
Antonio Aravena: America. Mojo, Vincoln and Vicente Columbianos. the and

459
01:31:23.860 --> 01:31:32.770
Antonio Aravena: the and and the last solidariat component. The important to the action syndicate.

460
01:31:33.480 --> 01:31:54.010
So also activities exchanges in the Southern cone in in in South America, exchanges with Colombian trade Unionist exchanges in the fast food sector. There's a seed or something that we need to. continue studying on this. these forms of solidarity.

461
01:31:54.740 --> 01:31:58.620
Antonio Aravena: The

462
01:32:05.980 --> 01:32:07.640
Antonio Aravena: it's some of the Laurando.

463
01:32:13.230 --> 01:32:16.189
Antonio Aravena: I guess so. Avla

464
01:32:16.430 --> 01:32:20.320
Antonio Aravena: the La and the Raja rejoveness.

465
01:32:20.750 --> 01:32:24.919
Antonio Aravena: Thetawa, Hawar Akini, and then, like for Tanzania, they'll authorize the sociologist

466
01:32:25.240 --> 01:32:31.640
Antonio Aravena: Kentucky and then importante the Laxian local. But I'm pretty cool as one context of

467
01:33:14.680 --> 01:33:27.699
Antonio Aravena:  unlucky going to do so now. Classicals in the

468
01:33:28.420 --> 01:33:44.810
so there are other experiences with another. The logic of international solidarity in the case, for example, of the the bank workers, but it takes on a different form. It is a more institutionalized form of labor solidarity.

469
01:33:55.100 --> 01:34:01.270
These are interesting experiences experiences that are worth knowing about. But they're distinct.

470
01:34:15.060 --> 01:34:22.150
 I mean, I might throw to you again now and then we'll go to the people who are in the room.

471
01:34:22.370 --> 01:34:28.920
Aabid Firdausi: Sure. So the question that I got was about the water menu. it's a very tricky question.

472
01:34:29.050 --> 01:34:31.719
Aabid Firdausi: so I guess, like

473
01:34:32.160 --> 01:34:36.190
Aabid Firdausi: The key point that I was trying to focus on is

474
01:34:36.320 --> 01:34:52.720
Aabid Firdausi: the water position in the sense that brands are simply not considered accountable in these local government production networks at all. And they completely left out of the equation. And when Gram she theorized about the water position he was trying to like. Talk about

475
01:34:52.810 --> 01:34:56.420
Aabid Firdausi: when the war of maneuver is not the

476
01:34:56.470 --> 01:35:03.029
Aabid Firdausi: easiest or most possible strategy first, and to what a position leading to the water maneuver

477
01:35:03.140 --> 01:35:05.060
Aabid Firdausi: after that! So I guess, like this

478
01:35:05.390 --> 01:35:09.399
Aabid Firdausi: stage that I'm focusing on has to deal with. What a position.

479
01:35:09.450 --> 01:35:12.470
Aabid Firdausi: if that makes sense. so yeah.

480
01:35:13.300 --> 01:35:16.860
okay. So now I'll come and grab your questions if we could.

481
01:35:23.280 --> 01:35:41.160
So I know. I think that's a great question. And honestly, I I've been thinking a lot about it, because, I did not actively think of like immigration when I started this project, because also, this question doesn't come that way, like, you know, this kind of rupture within the movement.

482
01:35:41.270 --> 01:36:09.550
 I think, or in India, you know, if like, there needs to be like sort of separate organization of workers. It I feel Muslim women do feel a face, a lot of discrimination both from State and employers. but there has not been any separate organization. And if you it comes to you know, immigration, there are workers from Bangladesh who work in India. And if you're Muslim and Bangladeshi, there is a way in which, you know you're vulnerable

483
01:36:09.550 --> 01:36:13.589
to deportation and various forms of exploitation.

484
01:36:13.890 --> 01:36:24.250
So in India. We don't really come across like you know, this kind of separate organizations and assertion of interest in that sense.

485
01:36:24.290 --> 01:36:29.289
I will definitely, you know you look for this work. Thank you for sharing that.

486
01:36:29.420 --> 01:36:53.189
What Tom was asking about deportation and workers, access to label laws and the fear. I think it's it's a it's a serious issue. So in addition to like the deportation, there are also some Vigilante groups which have in recent years being attacking people who are deemed to be undocumented or illegal foreigners. The common problem which is used

487
01:36:53.190 --> 01:37:23.100
but I just want to add, I think there is a very important you know, feature of South African labor laws and different you know, workshops, meetings with bureaucrats and interviews also with the State officials who enforce these labor laws. What comes out is that they and I ask them repeatedly, like, you know, does it matter if a worker approaches you, and whether they are an international, you know, work or a South African, they said, No, it doesn't matter, especially in institutions like Ccma.

488
01:37:23.100 --> 01:37:33.200
They say so. You know, you can go to these mediation courts. You can report a dispute with your employer, and that usually helps. I don't have time to detail that.

489
01:37:33.200 --> 01:37:55.570
But where it becomes important is that if you need to have access to you know, material benefits like unemployment benefit. Or you know you have an injury, and you want compensation. You need to have some formal documents for that compensation to be processed so as a bureaucrats said that you know you need to show me some paper in one of the meetings where you know unions were asking them

490
01:37:55.570 --> 01:38:07.439
like, I, can't you give these benefits to immigrant workers. So then it becomes an issue in principle. South African label laws do not discriminate. And institutions like Ccna, international migrants do go there.

491
01:38:07.790 --> 01:38:10.500
To Chris's question,

492
01:38:10.610 --> 01:38:40.130
I will definitely look at how it does work I honestly didn't not know. But I'm just thinking about like, you know, this sort of division across ethnic lines. But then some sort of convergence like, whether it leads to merger of organization or alliance building, I think what perhaps I could not emphasize. Enough is like these organization, despite these differences, work together. So you do see them like in a lot of workshops coming together and talking about what issues workers are facing.

493
01:38:40.510 --> 01:38:44.000
I think what is important is that, despite working together?

494
01:38:44.060 --> 01:38:51.590
And that's what I was trying to emphasize towards the end. Is that a long occupational identity? There is solidarity.

495
01:38:51.690 --> 01:38:58.329
But when it comes to citizenship, status, immigration status, there is this uncertainty how they feel about each other.

496
01:38:58.330 --> 01:39:26.529
So I'll just give you an example that kosatu for example, some congress from Kosatu had been assisting me with a lot in terms of like, how to found an organization and the advice, and that, you know you do not found a formal union, because then you will have to submit information about your members. Many of them might be undocumented, and in that way you will end up registering, you know, information with the state of people who are undocumented.

497
01:39:26.600 --> 01:39:32.359
And we also was like, Ok. We will not register an official union. We will still be a union.

498
01:39:32.400 --> 01:39:45.779
They did that, but at the end of it, like Kosatu, also wanted them to surrender The confederation to which Satsaw is affiliated to Miuza did not want to surrender the membership to Kosato.

499
01:39:45.920 --> 01:40:03.299
and the idea was clear that we work with them. But migrant workers issues are, you know, unique. And we don't think like, you know, they can really work with migrant workers issues. So that's what I just wanted to emphasize that they continue to work with each other. But there is also this very safe distance

500
01:40:03.300 --> 01:40:16.280
just before you sit down. So now, since this is a panel on labor internationalism, I was wondering what you thought the role of the International Domestic Workers Federation was both in South Africa, but also internationally, in bringing groups together.

501
01:40:18.170 --> 01:40:22.260
I think that's very important. yeah.

502
01:40:24.830 --> 01:40:50.100
I dwf, despite, you know all the great work they have done, and including you know, the Ilo Convention in 2,011, I dw have played an important role My understanding is that their role and influence remains submitted to some organizations. So in South Africa, for example, they primarily work with Ss out, support them, and all their, you know interventions are through sets out

503
01:40:50.210 --> 01:41:18.110
while it's out. There's very important work. One of the oldest unions, as I said, that there are 3 more organizations. So I think Idws and same thing in India, actually, like, you know, their primary access to domestic workers organizing in India is through Sava. Now, statewide is a one big, very important union. But there are like numerous organization who also have, you know, their own viewpoint of how organization can be done differently.

504
01:41:18.110 --> 01:41:26.470
So I think I dwf. Is very limited, that they have only worked with prominent and relatively big unions. Thank you

505
01:41:27.290 --> 01:41:31.320
and Kim in the last couple of minutes the final word to you.

506
01:41:33.629 --> 01:41:43.580
 I absolutely agree with you in in the fact that when I did my book on the Afl CIO's foreign policy.

507
01:41:43.770 --> 01:42:08.080
First of all, it's because I'm an American, and I think we got to straighten out American things. But you're absolutely right. That labor imperialism has not been confined to the Afl. CIO. The Canadian Labor Congress certainly has done that. Catherine Nstosky, who happens to be a personal friend, has, without a book coming out on that. I don't know if you know it should be out next year. University of Toronto Press.

508
01:42:08.100 --> 01:42:24.750
There's also, I think what her work does. I think in a lot of ways her work is much more applicable than mine, and that mine is a special case. The Flcio is just a a behemoth in the labor in the global labor move.

509
01:42:24.750 --> 01:42:41.319
But what she's looking at is it's extending it to the Social Democracies. So Canada. But I think there's some potential about Germany and also Israel as well, that I think that their labor movements have been engaged in in

510
01:42:41.320 --> 01:43:05.190
global In labor imperialism. I don't know the extent, but these are some of the areas that I've looked at, and I am wondering about that. So by no means do I see myself trying to? You know my model, my quote model applying to everybody. It's it's much broader. And I'm hoping that Catherine's is actually going to open up the feel far beyond what mine does. I'm hoping for that.

511
01:43:05.270 --> 01:43:06.340
Thank you, though.

512
01:43:10.719 --> 01:43:30.889
Okay, thanks everyone for being here for your forbearance with my technological incompetence. just before we wrap up a reminder that if you're interested in trade union internationalism at 3, 53 30 this afternoon, we've got another session on global and regional trade unions and the regulation of the future of work feature of work regulation.

513
01:43:30.920 --> 01:43:36.770
And then you'll notice also in the schedule that there's a business meeting, and I know most people see business meeting go.

514
01:43:37.719 --> 01:44:02.719
But this is a business meeting with a difference. The business meeting's going to be 30 min, and it will be followed by an author's meets critics. Session on my book, on Reina's book and on Eli's book, and that is, of course, followed by the dinner, so please don't be put off by the term business meeting, and we're going to set a new standard in business meetings and have a great time before we go off to dinner. So let's reconvene again, then at 3, 30, and

515
01:44:02.719 --> 01:44:11.709
and follow through until we're all well fed. Thanks again. Thanks for all our speakers, both online and in person. I think it was a great discussion.

516
01:44:11.709 --> 01:44:12.840
Have a great break.