WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.330
Robin Schulze Waltrup:  So yeah, I'm gonna share the session.

2
00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:09.829
Robin Schulze Waltrup: I'm a robin sh to vital from university and Doctor researcher there.

3
00:00:10.170 --> 00:00:24.039
Robin Schulze Waltrup: And yeah, I'm also happy. That tan. And Dawson has agreed to basically provide the bridge between the on language and the in-person word in this China. So I'm only having access to basically

4
00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:35.089
Robin Schulze Waltrup: the screen or the position where you're standing and holding the presentation. So I actually don't see the audience but you're doing the Q a. And a, and it's going to facilitate

5
00:00:35.210 --> 00:00:37.810
Robin Schulze Waltrup: basically. the sharing.

6
00:00:38.470 --> 00:00:50.710
Robin Schulze Waltrup: yeah, I welcome you to the panel. global social policy in terms of crisis. COVID-19 and the goal of Ios. we have 4 present for for presentations to online and 2 in person.

7
00:00:51.000 --> 00:01:00.720
Robin Schulze Waltrup: we are going to start with the presentations that are online. and the first one will be from the university of

8
00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:01.850
Robin Schulze Waltrup: 5 point.

9
00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:08.520
Robin Schulze Waltrup: And yeah, we will have a presentation. around 10 to 12 min.

10
00:01:08.590 --> 00:01:22.649
Robin Schulze Waltrup: followed by like 3 to 5 min, a quick Q&A. And after all the presentations, Alexandra cast the discussions. We provide comments to all the presentations, and we will have a more general discussion then.

11
00:01:23.440 --> 00:01:29.610
Robin Schulze Waltrup: so yeah, with that, having set I think you can start with sharing your screen.

12
00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:39.680
Tim Dorlach: Okay, thank you very much for your sharing and introduction. I will share my screen.

13
00:01:46.830 --> 00:01:49.359
Tim Dorlach: Can you see my my flights all right.

14
00:01:49.390 --> 00:01:51.729
Carolina Confex Tech Support: Yes, it's perfect. Thank you.

15
00:01:52.190 --> 00:01:59.139
Tim Dorlach: Thank you so much. So yes, I don't see my clock anymore.

16
00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:03.469
Tim Dorlach: 1 s, I just need to turn on a different timer here.

17
00:02:06.580 --> 00:02:18.989
Tim Dorlach: And okay. So this is a a project that is in some relatively early stage. So I already should say this. So I will be very curious to get comments and suggestions.

18
00:02:19.020 --> 00:02:24.439
Tim Dorlach: questions, of course, at the end. very much. Looking forward to that.

19
00:02:24.570 --> 00:02:37.839
Tim Dorlach: The the project is about, as you can see from its title. It's about school feeding, school feeding programs and the politics of school feeding programs. And it, it's doing so specifically

20
00:02:38.030 --> 00:02:43.170
Tim Dorlach: with the focus on the case of Nigeria, the largest country in Africa.

21
00:02:44.760 --> 00:03:05.760
Tim Dorlach: It's doing so eventually it will do so before and after COVID-19. I should say, though, that the as far as we've gotten now at empirical analysis the focus is mostly before COVID-19. But we have a little bit of data already on how COVID-19 might have influenced the in the evolution of school feeding in Nigeria.

22
00:03:07.760 --> 00:03:27.910
Tim Dorlach: So I'm starting a little bit with an explanation of what school feeding is. School feeding programs are. This is a. The economist is always a good starting point, because if the economist is thinking about social policy things. It's a good idea that usually realize that a certain social program has arrived in the mainstream.

23
00:03:27.910 --> 00:03:52.469
Tim Dorlach: this is a piece from from last September, where the economist asked the question, if every school child should eat for free, and it basically went through a lot of the evidence. of these school feeding programs, which are basically school feeding programs are programs where children are eat at school and do so in a way that they don't have to pay out of pocket. So somebody is paying for it.

24
00:03:52.480 --> 00:04:03.549
Tim Dorlach: Sometimes the government, sometimes international organizations, some other form of donors, but the children that school they don't at that moment of delivery have to pay for the pro, for the, for the food

25
00:04:04.710 --> 00:04:23.590
Tim Dorlach: and the the evidence suggests. and here the economist is quite an agreement with with with the literature. The academic literature to say is that There are so many benefits to it, and particularly in low and middle income countries. where there are a lot more children who find it higher in household to find a t or 2

26
00:04:23.590 --> 00:04:42.529
Tim Dorlach: afford that that food themselves. So since since my focus and then our focus is on on the global south, more generally, we basically take the the first part of that of that evidence with us and say, Yes, there is a very strong evidence that school feeding programs are extremely beneficial.

27
00:04:43.150 --> 00:05:11.269
Tim Dorlach: So it is interesting to see that school feeding is a is a policy instrument, or it's in policy program that has really spread in the last in the last decades and specific in the last 10 to 20 years. So we can think of school feeding programs and school feeding as an emerging policy field. That is that is not very old when you compare it to other social programs, even though some form of it, or it have existed for a long time

28
00:05:11.270 --> 00:05:23.889
Tim Dorlach: in the global South, specifically, school feeding program programs and boarding schools. sometimes also into colonial past and colonial boarding schools existed. But in the in sense of large nationwide

29
00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:29.629
Tim Dorlach: programs that cover all types of schools. They're they're a relatively newer.

30
00:05:30.510 --> 00:05:34.210
Tim Dorlach: What is interesting from an

31
00:05:34.690 --> 00:06:00.929
Tim Dorlach: finding perspective is that in many countries at the World Food Program is directly engaged in in both the financing, the funding, but also the implementation of the school feeding program. So the World food form. Of course, one of the international organizations of the United Nations is often more known for its work in humanitarian food aid. So in times of crises

32
00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:19.640
Tim Dorlach: currently in in suits South Sudan, in in Yemen, or, of course in Ukraine, the world P. From comes in and provides a emergency food, a humanitarian emergency who date. But it's somewhat less known that the World Food Program is also engaged in more standard

33
00:06:19.640 --> 00:06:35.280
Tim Dorlach: food support, so to say. And this is through these school feeding programs which they do in all times and in in countries, whether they are in humanitarian crisis or not so. This is the second big big area of work of the world food probe. Next to you, humanitarian aid

34
00:06:35.300 --> 00:06:41.030
Tim Dorlach: and it has immense effects on school feeding program development.

35
00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:53.480
Tim Dorlach: This is A is A is a graph that summarizes where and this is now focused on Africa where the money for school feeding programs usually comes from. And you see here that there is a

36
00:06:53.530 --> 00:07:08.589
Tim Dorlach: is is large divergence between how these programs are funded. So there are some programs, as you see on the top, such as Botswana, Egypt, but also Nigeria. The case that we're focusing, on which one which are entirely funded from their own government sources.

37
00:07:08.740 --> 00:07:34.559
Tim Dorlach: But you see also, at the very bottom, countries that are here completely in general, where where the school feeding programs are entirely funded from international by international donors. And this we can say, in most cases it's the World food program. Sometimes also Ush, right? And in the middle you see a lot of Co financing. So where programs are financed partially by their own governments and partially by international donors.

38
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:44.760
Tim Dorlach: it does also a little bit of blue here in this graph. So you see, some programs also have private sector co funding. but this is, you see, much less common.

39
00:07:45.190 --> 00:07:56.889
Tim Dorlach: So we see a strong divergence. To what did the extent to which these programs are financed by by governments? the Avi, the World Food program and some other international donors.

40
00:07:57.760 --> 00:08:24.950
Tim Dorlach: So what is important is that school feeding programs are multiple objectives, multi purpose and programs. So they fulfill these 3 fraud programs at goals that I list here. The first is social protection, which is perhaps relatively clear. The goal of the school feeding program is to feed school children and therefore reduce hunger. Right? It also. Interestingly, it's said to indirectly augment incomes of poorer households. So if poor households

41
00:08:24.950 --> 00:08:41.659
Tim Dorlach: do not need to pay for the food anymore that they give their children. when they go to school, they have more money to spend on other things. Right? So it also has this in income augmentation perspective. Importantly, though, it also has an effect on education in the sense that

42
00:08:41.660 --> 00:08:55.829
Tim Dorlach: it in increases school attendance. So when children and families know that the children receive free school meals at lunch. They're more likely to regularly send their children to school, which, of course, has an effect on human capital development.

43
00:08:56.190 --> 00:08:57.140
Tim Dorlach: and

44
00:08:57.270 --> 00:09:21.800
Tim Dorlach: in then general in a change to many school feeding problems that came into 2 thousands. There is now many, often requirements on school feeding programs to produce, to use food that is homegrown, so locally sourced, so that also contributes to local agricultural development. rather than importing as sometimes happened in the past. Somewhat ironically, the food that is used in these programs.

45
00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:50.799
Tim Dorlach: So global ideas about school feeding are emerging because this is an extreme increasingly transnationalized policy field. As the funding for many of these programs comes from international actors. One big influence is the Brazilian model of school feeding, which became very successful in the 2,000. So that has since been promoted by Brazil itself, the World Food Program and other actors as a model to follow specifically also by African countries.

46
00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:55.040
Tim Dorlach: And the world food problem, as I mentioned, is one of the main funders.

47
00:09:58.370 --> 00:10:22.849
Tim Dorlach: The African Union is also important specifically in the context of Africa, where it has become a regional promoter of these ideas of school feeding, and and urges most or just all au Member States to introduce school feeding. So one thing that we are also reading to see and try to see in this in our paper is the the impact of those international ideas on

48
00:10:22.970 --> 00:10:36.030
Tim Dorlach: on school feeding program adoption. And whether this influence has an effect on program adoption and expansion. I'm skipping over some of these things or going through them a little bit quicker in the interest of time.

49
00:10:36.630 --> 00:10:38.370
Tim Dorlach: so

50
00:10:40.810 --> 00:10:53.209
Tim Dorlach: what we found when we did our literature review is that even though there is big agreement and the economic literature that school feeding from are immensely important for for outcomes.

51
00:10:53.210 --> 00:11:17.610
Tim Dorlach: both in terms of of food, insecurity, food, security of educational attainment and agricultural development. There is amazingly little political science, that which are that tries to explain why some countries, top school feeding programs and others do not, or why some are bigger and more effective than others. So there's very little. There is a few here, by some specifically South Africa based scholars that

52
00:11:17.610 --> 00:11:24.459
Tim Dorlach: that deal with school feeding. But apart from that, this, the it's a largely unexplored policy area.

53
00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:44.270
Tim Dorlach: But we do think that we can try to use existing theories of of social policy development. For to explain in school feeding policy. But of course, we need to see how well those theories travel and how well we actually can apply them. So what we're doing in the paper is it's conducting a case study of Nigeria

54
00:11:45.150 --> 00:12:02.400
Tim Dorlach: because Nigeria is a country that introduced school feeding in 2,016, and, as you remember, from the graph I showed before, or it might remember, Nigeria actually totally self finance. It's programming. So we chose this case to see the really see the difference between

55
00:12:03.350 --> 00:12:24.440
Tim Dorlach: the impact between national politics and global ideas. Whereas when we wanted to have some other cases where you also have the influence of international financing. Right? Then you would Co study some other case. But here it's really what's the impact. What's the relative effect of global ideas ideational, in fact, work versus in and domestic politics?

56
00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:26.960
Tim Dorlach: Okay.

57
00:12:27.060 --> 00:12:55.179
Tim Dorlach: I will here show you the graph that we're at a table where we basically see our our setup at the base main summary of our case. If it's okay, I'm gonna take maybe one and a half more minutes to try to to wrap up my my presentation. we. We see that. So we study 5 different, rather 4 different Presidents in in Nigeria since 1,999, when Nigeria turned to democracy, and we see that the Presidency is highlighted here in black.

58
00:12:55.180 --> 00:13:08.160
Tim Dorlach: where where there were attempts to introduce a school feeding in the in the first administration by by President Obaz Al. There was an attempt in the early 2 thousands to introduce school feeding, and a pilot was introduced, but it failed

59
00:13:08.260 --> 00:13:30.749
Tim Dorlach: then in the Presidency, by good, like Jonathan again it was to discuss and It got close to an attempt, but no policy change happened. And then, in the last recently concluded President by Presidency, by Buhari, it was successfully introduced at a national level. And here, you see, we think the effect of COVID-19

60
00:13:30.750 --> 00:13:43.299
Tim Dorlach: and raised substantially the funding for that just after COVID-19. So we basically doing a comparison between these 2 earlier presidencies where there was a temp at school feeding policy introduction.

61
00:13:43.350 --> 00:13:56.739
Tim Dorlach: but unsuccessful. So with the with a later a presidency where it was introduced. And here we're asking why the Buhari Government but managed to do so successfully while the previously did not.

62
00:13:56.830 --> 00:14:19.989
Tim Dorlach: And we basically try, look for the effect of 3 different explanations. The first is, we ask, has the context of global ideas shifted from 2,015 and 14 to 2,016. So was there a change that could explain why program introduction was successful, or was it a different orientation of political parties between these 2 periods.

63
00:14:20.040 --> 00:14:48.700
Tim Dorlach: or, lastly, a fiscal capacity, the debt player role, since it was a completely self finance program. So the debt change. So this is basically what we we found, we we do think that global ideas have some role but because there was actually no funding from international sources. These global ideas had only a limited influence. And we actually find that the main role was was in the shift from

64
00:14:48.890 --> 00:15:04.530
Tim Dorlach: the type of parties that that governed. And this is quite interesting, since usually the writing on Nigerian politics and Nigerian social policy tends to disregard these national factors and highlighting international factors and influences.

65
00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:14.269
Tim Dorlach: So with that I I my presentation. Thank you very much for your attention. I'm happy to answer any. Follow up questions, and then later, look forward to our discussion.

66
00:15:20.490 --> 00:15:36.370
Robin Schulze Waltrup: yeah, thank you to for the presentation. I don't think it's a big problem to take a couple of moments for presentation, because we are out. We are a panel, we we before presentation. So there is. yeah, some flexibility concerning time.

67
00:15:36.860 --> 00:15:38.739
Robin Schulze Waltrup: are there any questions?

68
00:15:44.740 --> 00:15:46.690
Robin Schulze Waltrup: And the audience, maybe.

69
00:15:48.420 --> 00:15:55.750
I was going to do questions all at the end. But are we doing them one after? After?

70
00:15:56.220 --> 00:16:05.910
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, just a quick. about questions after each presentation  yeah,

71
00:16:07.650 --> 00:16:13.579
thanks, Tim, my name is jimmy additional

72
00:16:13.850 --> 00:16:19.069
and just a couple of things to keep in mind.

73
00:16:19.550 --> 00:16:27.639
 first of all is the I mean. And I I I believe you're focusing mainly on primary school

74
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.190
feeding programs.

75
00:16:30.920 --> 00:16:36.789
 it's important to keep in mind the constitutional division.

76
00:16:37.260 --> 00:16:42.750
of responsibilities. The primary education does not fall under the Federal

77
00:16:43.290 --> 00:16:47.440
authority. It is a State and local government.

78
00:16:47.740 --> 00:16:49.430
responsibility!

79
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:56.280
 So even during the what do you call it? Bassanjo?

80
00:16:56.290 --> 00:17:02.439
 Oh, what do you call it? Jonathan, you know. Period, for instance.

81
00:17:02.610 --> 00:17:06.329
and there are a number of states that that were implementing

82
00:17:06.580 --> 00:17:19.170
 school finance team, or or sure state, for instance, is is typically one of them. So you're gonna find. If you take, if it. If you look at this clearly from a Federal level, you miss out

83
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:28.459
the variegated nature of of this at state levels. You know it's it's it to be it to be all very uneven, you know.

84
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:41.989
and you know, the second thing is, it's important to keep your mind. The historical dimension of this school feeding skill is not new, and the Nigerian contest what happened?

85
00:17:42.090 --> 00:17:44.139
And I am a beneficiary.

86
00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:47.679
When I was in primary school in the 1960. S. You know.

87
00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:56.420
as a beneficiary of this, including, you know what we call it, you know, even out

88
00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:59.730
milk, you know, P. And milk, and so on, and so forth. Here.

89
00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:05.720
what really happened. And I think it's important, because it's becoming

90
00:18:05.780 --> 00:18:07.980
very frustrating thing for me

91
00:18:08.050 --> 00:18:15.780
that we tend to take history in sub-saharan African social policy as if it started only after the 1,900 eightys.

92
00:18:16.150 --> 00:18:30.239
that, in fact, what we see as the resurgence and international. Something followed the World Bank Imf structural adjustment programs that decimated public financing.

93
00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:34.990
you know. for for educational health care, you know, social.

94
00:18:35.270 --> 00:18:46.059
especially investment skills, and so on and so forth. And so you're likely to find governments that you know, led by people with

95
00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:48.710
ideas that act back

96
00:18:49.330 --> 00:18:57.070
to earlier faces of pre-adjustment. More, you know, disposed and more driven in this, in this.

97
00:18:57.130 --> 00:19:00.359
you know. Particular

98
00:19:00.430 --> 00:19:06.600
direction, you know. Final thing is, is, I think, ideas actually matter.

99
00:19:06.610 --> 00:19:09.410
That idea matters more than fiscal space.

100
00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:12.199
because the federal something would just be.

101
00:19:12.270 --> 00:19:20.219
you know, what do you call it? Contributing to augmented States budget. In this and in this particular case.

102
00:19:20.310 --> 00:19:28.019
Buhari government actually face more fiscal constraint, you know, collapsing what you call oil or something.

103
00:19:28.060 --> 00:19:34.610
and ambassador, and in particularly Jonathan's government, had actually greater fiscal space.

104
00:19:35.060 --> 00:19:43.610
But this is where ideas actually matter and the way which you know. you know, that becomes important and explain a number of

105
00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:45.389
you know.

106
00:19:46.770 --> 00:19:47.740
Thank you.

107
00:19:53.810 --> 00:20:08.240
Robin Schulze Waltrup: yeah. Thank you for the question. And just one thing, maybe it would be good if someone that is, they have in person who has a question, can go in front of the computer. So the

108
00:20:08.310 --> 00:20:16.150
Robin Schulze Waltrup: people online actually see the person that is causing the question which makes it, which makes it more interesting, I guess, for the people online.

109
00:20:16.550 --> 00:20:20.119
Robin Schulze Waltrup: yeah, Tim, do you want to? Answer that right?

110
00:20:21.280 --> 00:20:39.209
Tim Dorlach: I can maybe briefly, say a a sentence or so. Thank you so much, Jimmy, for this. for this comment, we never met in person, but we've been in contact before. having you in the audience. There is probably the single best person to have there to comment on this paper. I am very, very glad.

111
00:20:39.230 --> 00:20:57.419
Tim Dorlach: so all the things you mentioned they're absolutely correct. Maybe some of the things will carry over in the general discussion. But I would. What I do want to say is your very important point about the the first point you made about the the state level so beyond federal level programs, and that something we actually try to do in the paper to then test our theory.

112
00:20:57.420 --> 00:21:09.560
Tim Dorlach: to specifically look at those states that we're already able Kano, and also to to implement these programs. It's something. Now, I had to eliminate from the presentation of the of time. But we actually, then.

113
00:21:09.610 --> 00:21:30.909
Tim Dorlach: from a meteorological perspective, have actually 2 different levels of to test the kind of theories of influence of ideas where it's fiscal space and and ideology. but it's something that's that comes in a second step, so to say. But it's absolutely important. And on the other issues, I absolutely agree. that the these programs and I do

114
00:21:31.600 --> 00:21:43.809
Tim Dorlach: some form of these grow problems go back very far. And we need to be aware of historical development in that sense. And then something we'll try to highlight sufficiently also in the paper. Thank you so much for those comments.

115
00:21:47.040 --> 00:21:52.809
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, we seem to have one more question in the in person. Audience, I think we can also.

116
00:21:52.900 --> 00:22:08.989
Yes, thank you very much for this interesting and a stimulating presentation. I was just wondering, because the title says before and after COVID-19, and I didn't really see after COVID-19. So could you briefly elaborate?

117
00:22:09.020 --> 00:22:12.529
And if where else? There were changes or not?

118
00:22:13.830 --> 00:22:18.870
Tim Dorlach: Yes, very briefly, there was a change in in funding by about

119
00:22:19.610 --> 00:22:42.340
Tim Dorlach: 45 of funding per child that was introduced in 2,022. And so we know that happened after to the COVID-19. And certainly because many school feeding problems were close during COVID-19. It was high on the agenda, but we still need to dig deeper with interviews. To what extent this was the effect of COVID-19 versus the recent election that happens in 2,000

120
00:22:42.340 --> 00:22:52.509
Tim Dorlach: early 2,023. So that might have just also been electoral computation that drove this this change. So that's the that's the that's the short answer.

121
00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:02.389
Robin Schulze Waltrup: All right, and let's continue with the next presentation. which will be John.

122
00:23:03.090 --> 00:23:06.039
Robin Schulze Waltrup: can you share your screen? Then?

123
00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:12.270
John Berten: Yeah, sure, you should be able to see it. I hope?

124
00:23:12.820 --> 00:23:14.240
John Berten: All right. Right?

125
00:23:14.740 --> 00:23:21.440
John Berten: Okay. So yeah. My name is John Burton. I'm from Peter Faith University. And I'm

126
00:23:21.570 --> 00:23:35.400
John Berten: basically presenting this paper global sort of policy ideas in the COVID-19 crisis expansion or retrenchment and presenting this on behalf of a group of scholars from Elephant University and the University of Grayman.

127
00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:41.880
John Berten: Apart from myself, this is Kurti Grabo I, Santa Cruz, casting Martin's so on Maya and Matlin war.

128
00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:57.430
John Berten: And yeah, let me just quickly go into the context of this paper. So this paper was produced as part of a larger research project on crisis management of the COVID-19 pandemic by international organizations.

129
00:23:57.530 --> 00:24:03.560
John Berten: And this sub is this is Tell, the sub project of a of a much larger collaborative research Center

130
00:24:03.770 --> 00:24:09.939
John Berten: Global Dynamics of Social Policy. at the University of Bremen, funded by the German Research Foundation.

131
00:24:10.290 --> 00:24:14.009
John Berten: And yeah. the the context of this particular paper

132
00:24:14.390 --> 00:24:27.949
John Berten: is the observation that the COVID-19 crisis, of course, if you we all know, did not only involve negative health outcomes directly due to the pandemic and in economic crisis due to the interventions for containment, but

133
00:24:28.090 --> 00:24:30.709
John Berten: also involves challenges for social policy

134
00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:51.080
John Berten: and challenges to social policy institutions. for instance, by having, of course, effects on unemployment, the poverty but most attention on social policy during the COVID-19 crisis has been on the country level. and less research has focused on the level of Ios.

135
00:24:51.750 --> 00:24:55.520
John Berten: However, the international organizations are, of course. very

136
00:24:55.620 --> 00:25:08.359
John Berten: very important. they develop policy proposals dealing with Christ induced risks and threats. The ideas are frequently kind of yeah. Translated to the national level.

137
00:25:08.770 --> 00:25:20.549
John Berten: and particularly in global crises. I think we can see also, by looking at past crises. I always have become kind of, or can can become kind of a frame of reference for policy learning

138
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:32.200
John Berten: and even though in social policy international organizations do not have kind of an authority to implement sort of policies themselves. They are thus very, very important, as as kind of.

139
00:25:32.270 --> 00:25:34.360
John Berten: and providing this guiding frame

140
00:25:34.860 --> 00:25:48.469
John Berten: and the the project. This paper is part of that's explores what ideas and recommendations to the crisis. I I always formulate in response to covid crisis, or what they have formulated

141
00:25:48.790 --> 00:26:01.310
John Berten: in response to the Covid crisis. And for this paper, as you see on the sides down below, we collected empirical data on for Ios, the Ilo, the Oecd, the who at the World Bank.

142
00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:11.009
John Berten: and on 3 policy fields, so ideas and prescriptions in relation to health, in relation to labor and in relation to social security.

143
00:26:12.430 --> 00:26:21.910
John Berten: And yeah, in the first place, this paper explores possible answers to why and how I O ideas and recommendations

144
00:26:21.979 --> 00:26:33.410
John Berten: in the crisis have basically become the way they are. So theoretical perspective in this paper is oriented on ideas within historical institutionalism.

145
00:26:33.939 --> 00:26:45.849
John Berten: asking how and why ideas and prescriptions have changed or not changed in any meaningful way. Is there a path dependency in the sense that I always develop recommendations in line with their

146
00:26:46.080 --> 00:26:49.100
John Berten: ideological positions

147
00:26:49.529 --> 00:26:58.050
John Berten: in line with their existing paradigms? Or does the specific nature of the crisis enable basically path departures?

148
00:26:58.410 --> 00:27:07.719
John Berten: and our assumption is that in crisis I always are, in fact, confronted with very high expectations to provide guidance

149
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:23.259
John Berten: commentary, with their kind of competencies and mandates and quick responses are expected. On the other hand, the options are very much limited by their distinct functions, by their limited resources, and they complex, complex kind of bureaucratic structure. So

150
00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:29.929
John Berten: in these contexts, we expect that I always respond to the crisis more with activism, with kind of

151
00:27:30.290 --> 00:27:43.890
John Berten: applying and adapting existing concepts to to to the crisis. context. And we does expect that I always maintain rather their policy positions broadly in line with the official mandates.

152
00:27:44.560 --> 00:28:00.589
John Berten: and I will shortly come to the empirical insights to show if this expectation was was met. But first let me just quickly go into Another kind of theoretical foundation ideas and prescriptions. What do we mean by that? Because, of course, the ideational literature

153
00:28:00.970 --> 00:28:03.740
John Berten: does mean very different things when it talks about ideas.

154
00:28:03.820 --> 00:28:10.629
John Berten: so first of all, what we differentiate here is, first, more abstract, paradigmatic positions.

155
00:28:10.660 --> 00:28:12.969
John Berten: on the one hand, from kind of

156
00:28:13.330 --> 00:28:19.259
John Berten: specific models, but specific policy models. Both both of these involve normative and cognitive elements.

157
00:28:19.820 --> 00:28:42.510
John Berten: But the difference is that well, on the one hand, you have broad I/O ideas often captured in kind of mission statements in the founding documents. and such ideas can, of course, effectively influence policies in on the national level by influencing agenda setting policy formulation. But they are not really specific enough to function as kind of direct instructions for for policy making.

158
00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:45.559
John Berten: and they specify rather abstract guidelines

159
00:28:46.070 --> 00:29:06.070
John Berten: and concrete recommendations on the on end of prescriptions are then, yeah, policy models, specific policy models or or single elements of policies. they have more specific goals can be based upon these more abstract ideas, but are, as I said, more more specific. And that's I mean, both are broadly I would say.

160
00:29:06.370 --> 00:29:11.100
John Berten: it on the aviation level, or or concepts right? that I always formulate.

161
00:29:11.450 --> 00:29:32.090
John Berten: All right. So let me quickly go to the empirical insights on on these 4 organizations and in relation to the 3 policy fields. But, due to the limited time that I think I have, I will be a bit more specific on the Ilo, because that was also the organization that I've researched here in the context of this project and to be a bit more yeah,

162
00:29:32.690 --> 00:29:45.950
John Berten: and not go into much detail on the other organizations. so for the Ilo, the pandemic has been kind of a lesson that shows the need for expanding. first of all, in relation to social protection, expanding coverage.

163
00:29:46.020 --> 00:30:03.379
John Berten:  also, since investments in social protection have been shown to be effective those countries which had already kind of an extensive social protection system fared better, and it generally. August. The temporary measures introduced should be extended and made permanent.

164
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:18.669
John Berten: so largely in terms of social protection. The Ilos proposals are in line with its existing agenda on expanding social protection. But the organization uses kind of the impact of the covid crisis as a window of opportunity for yeah.

165
00:30:19.610 --> 00:30:24.499
John Berten: really promoting this again. There, it's existing kind of policy.

166
00:30:24.560 --> 00:30:35.699
John Berten: Obviously. recommendations. The Ilo also proposes concrete measures which you see here on the on the right hand side. these are also kind of in line with the existing set of social protection measures.

167
00:30:36.070 --> 00:30:52.269
John Berten: and there's, however, kind of a notable emphasis on unemployment which was not really a parent in aisle or discourse to that degree before, and new groups, such as the self employed, which have seldom, we mentioned explicitly, rather been applied before. yeah. But

168
00:30:52.970 --> 00:30:54.220
John Berten: in relation to

169
00:30:54.490 --> 00:31:07.510
John Berten: to to health care. it's a kind of come kind of similar. the all promotes a universal health care package underpinned by the same focus on universal coverage as an abstract idea as as in social protection.

170
00:31:07.600 --> 00:31:22.599
John Berten: in multiple departure which you see here on the and and the bottom of this slide is that the ilao now also promotes things like vaccine access and and discusses how to get kind of a more equitable way of sharing vaccines.

171
00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:29.770
John Berten:  in terms of labor market policies. yeah. The Ilo

172
00:31:29.800 --> 00:31:33.940
John Berten: promotes strengthening income compensation measures focusing on activation.

173
00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:41.639
John Berten: public employment services, short time work, compensation. All this is underpinned by by its grant idea of decent work.

174
00:31:41.690 --> 00:31:45.340
John Berten: and that's a strong focus on the formal labor market.

175
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:57.489
John Berten: There are, kind of, again, some exceptions to the usual set of recommendations. Yellow emphasizes, for instance, particularly in the struggles of women, since these are especially affected by the pandemic involved in unpaid care work, for instance.

176
00:31:57.610 --> 00:32:03.290
John Berten: Other vulnerable groups, such as the informally employed or the self-employed are rather

177
00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:12.920
John Berten: more kind of talked about in relation to social security. and not so much by too in relation to their own market policies.

178
00:32:13.270 --> 00:32:19.539
John Berten: all right. So the the other organizations just a more, a bit more and more quickly and streamlined.

179
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:31.600
John Berten: For the Oecd. We see in relation to social protection, a focus on the needs of the most vulnerable. The focus, then, particularly on on targeted programs in relation to health.

180
00:32:31.750 --> 00:32:49.089
John Berten: your organization focuses largely in the beginning more, and the distinct challenges due to the pandemic, such as testing medical treatments, global corporations in vaccine access, and also mental health challenges of those affected and and and health workers, and later shifts this kind of more

181
00:32:49.340 --> 00:32:55.709
John Berten: short-term crisis management to to to ideas of of a long-term recovery under the framework of resilience

182
00:32:56.030 --> 00:32:57.819
John Berten: in relation to the labor market.

183
00:32:58.090 --> 00:33:13.430
John Berten: The ideas such as, yeah. Ensuring workforce productivity. again, focus on health workers, active level market policies, rescaling and training. So not really something. particularly a path breaking in in regards to the

184
00:33:14.100 --> 00:33:16.720
John Berten: yeah. Pre pandemic stance

185
00:33:16.810 --> 00:33:26.559
John Berten: d, who And I will here be even even even quicker due to time. Reasons. Wh. Oh, interestingly,

186
00:33:26.810 --> 00:33:39.660
John Berten: one could also say, not that surprisingly focuses in in all these policy fields on, on health. So I mean, generally it provides guidance on health, spending, health, financing, strengthening health systems.

187
00:33:40.280 --> 00:33:43.550
John Berten: and this, Focus on health also,

188
00:33:43.760 --> 00:34:00.729
John Berten: influences. It's social protection and labour market recommendations where it's it's a promote social protection measures, particularly for health staff and focus on health workers and their working conditions. and this is, of course, in line with the Ws mandate and under, pinned by ideas. that, it

189
00:34:01.660 --> 00:34:14.330
John Berten: also had pre-pandemic universal health coverage, primary health care. the World Bank. Yeah. It's broad ideas also remain similar to before the pandemic the bank proposes

190
00:34:14.410 --> 00:34:39.150
John Berten: brought a move towards tax funded systems in relation to social protection rather than more contributory models. to include the informally employed. yeah. However, on the level of concrete prescriptions. The organizations kind of proposes now not only cash transfers as before, but what it costs. Cash transfers plus which have a kind of addressing the economic economic inclusion of poor people. move to activation and training

191
00:34:39.600 --> 00:34:47.940
John Berten: in terms of health care the World Bank was particularly focusing on strengthening vaccine access and manufacturing capacity

192
00:34:47.980 --> 00:35:07.899
John Berten: and in terms of the labor market. Yet the impact of the crisis on education and you with training was also emphasized. And we have here an interesting combination with with the other current crisis in, in, in the discourse, on, on, on Covid kind of also brings in kind of the the need to implement green infrastructure

193
00:35:08.310 --> 00:35:10.450
John Berten: to for the economy.

194
00:35:10.600 --> 00:35:18.280
John Berten: so so other kind of challenges and crisis are are brought in as well. So what can we learn by by this? kind of

195
00:35:18.430 --> 00:35:21.890
John Berten: kind of detailed look on ideas and and recommendations?

196
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:35.619
John Berten: So first of all, we see that Ios did have a high priority on social policy during the covid crisis. So this high priority on social policy that we see on the country level has also been visible in I/O discourses

197
00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:49.340
John Berten: in relation to health. There was first a focus on immediate needs due to the pandemic which later then, and in most of these organizations shifted more to kind of long term issues like resilience, health system strengthening

198
00:35:49.490 --> 00:35:51.320
John Berten: in relation to labour market.

199
00:35:52.160 --> 00:36:07.079
John Berten: A similar picture emerged first, I always dealt more with immediate consequences of of these lockdowns and and the economic recession, and then yeah, first first and trying to preserve jobs. And then it was more engagement with recovery ideas.

200
00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:10.010
John Berten: Social protection. On the other end was was

201
00:36:10.160 --> 00:36:21.970
John Berten: the whole time discuss, kind of as an as an economic stabilize that safety net particularly needed for the most vulnerable and we don't really see a a strong shift in the discourse. So

202
00:36:22.120 --> 00:36:30.039
John Berten: first of all. What, what, what we can we can learn from from that by by kind of comparing this to to to to other crises.

203
00:36:30.460 --> 00:36:39.119
John Berten: There are clear parallels between the economic and financial crisis of the late 2 thousands, for instance, and and the Covid pandemic, where.

204
00:36:39.730 --> 00:36:43.760
John Berten: yeah? Whereas in early stages of the pandemic I always kind of concentrated on

205
00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:59.470
John Berten: these proposals, strengthening crisis management and later phases. They were more active in outlining ideas for recovery.  And we see, basically, from from what I presented to you, that our kind of

206
00:36:59.870 --> 00:37:05.340
John Berten: broader theoretical assumption of path dependency.

207
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:18.339
John Berten: fits broadly. Ideas and prescriptions have been largely path dependent, but there are different reasons for that depending on the organization and their differences observable also depending on the policy field.

208
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:20.919
John Berten: So in relation to

209
00:37:21.030 --> 00:37:24.500
John Berten: the the different organizations. We see that the Oecd

210
00:37:24.990 --> 00:37:31.419
John Berten: add in its recommendations a close orientation on best practices, instead of developing new innovative solutions.

211
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:38.090
John Berten: because the Ocds policy adviser strongly focused on the needs and concerns of Ocd countries.

212
00:37:38.670 --> 00:37:41.440
John Berten: The Ilo changes more

213
00:37:41.450 --> 00:37:57.560
John Berten: specific parameters of instruments, such as expanding kind of coverage to to to new types of groups. but does not kind of propose paradigmatic changes of its grant ideas itself. and we? We can explain that

214
00:37:57.750 --> 00:38:05.899
John Berten: broadly by the Ilo being strongly dependent on achieving consensus within this tripartite constituency.

215
00:38:06.390 --> 00:38:20.530
John Berten: not kind of being able to to quickly change. It's a paradigmatic yeah, it's it's it's kind of grand ideas. Dw, H. O. Has had a strong focus on more technical issues.

216
00:38:20.560 --> 00:38:25.289
John Berten: and was very much kind of limited to to its core mandate.

217
00:38:25.620 --> 00:38:37.910
John Berten: And this can be explained either due to a shift into kind of a crisis management mode, kind of responding to immediate precious, or also due to the contestation. The organization faced in the pandemic

218
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:47.269
John Berten: and the World bank. Well, basically, when he slightly reframed, it's existing recommendations. and and what's what's what's

219
00:38:47.290 --> 00:38:52.379
John Berten: able to connect it's it's covert recommendations with the other broader adaptation goals.

220
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.200
John Berten: so

221
00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:59.329
John Berten: differences depending on the policy field for for health and labor.

222
00:38:59.380 --> 00:39:03.200
John Berten: And I hope this has been kind of observable

223
00:39:03.210 --> 00:39:16.480
John Berten: already. they they. They are some kind of new recommendations, observable challenges involved various unknowns, the the global pandemic widespread shutdowns of the economy. So

224
00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:36.449
John Berten: in in in some issues, basically, I always had to go beyond their usual set of recommendations for social protection. On the other hand. I always face mostly known challenges since the pandemic on the exacerbated pre existing inequalities. But this could be dealt with basically by the same policy instruments.

225
00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:45.959
John Berten: And we basically can. It can also explain this broader path dependency on the level of ideas and and prescriptions. by

226
00:39:46.430 --> 00:39:53.040
John Berten: well, they basically, seeing that the covered crisis has not been a crisis of the Welfare State. It's actually been

227
00:39:53.570 --> 00:40:09.979
John Berten: shown that those countries which already had kind of an expanded welfare state had been able to respond. Better so? the yeah, it was not a crisis of these measures, but basically they were. yeah.

228
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:14.800
John Berten: affirmed there. yeah,

229
00:40:16.150 --> 00:40:18.610
John Berten: as as kind of useful

230
00:40:18.680 --> 00:40:26.149
John Berten: policy instruments. So yeah, that's basically our our paper in

231
00:40:26.620 --> 00:40:35.049
John Berten: all of yeah, in, in in short, and I'm looking forward to any questions and comments from the audience. Thank you very much.

232
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:53.799
Robin Schulze Waltrup: all right, thank you, John, and just came into my mind that I didn't really introduce you properly, which is probably because we're working together at the same university. But you've been listening to John Burton on university in Germany.

233
00:40:54.540 --> 00:40:58.189
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Are there any immediate questions or comments?

234
00:40:58.200 --> 00:41:02.000
Yes, there's one coming up. Just hold on.

235
00:41:08.170 --> 00:41:23.170
Hi, John! My name is Ruth. Thank you so much for your presentation. So I had a couple of questions. The first was whether in your analysis you looked at beyond what the institution said.

236
00:41:23.170 --> 00:41:29.300
sort of what they did. So, for instance, the World Bank, using this as an opportunity

237
00:41:29.300 --> 00:41:54.469
to advance the sort of outsourcing of public provisioning through, you know, outsourcing of cash transfers and electronic payments, or using as an opportunity to try to financialize social protection by including measures that are somehow tied to to financial inclusion. In the code, so like was there beyond sort of like universal? Had you looked at sort of some of the instruments.

238
00:41:54.470 --> 00:42:19.170
the second was whether you'd looked at which of these institutions actually had power to influence policy during this period, so they may have all had a sort of approach, a discursive approach, but who was actually driving policy responses at the National level? Was the World Bank able to be, you know, more effective and driving its agenda because it had money behind that

239
00:42:19.170 --> 00:42:40.900
And the third was, I was curious about this austerity. Well, I'm sorry about the question around the crisis of the welfare state, and whether there's been any reflection on the implications of sort of subsequent austerity measures. you know, that that have ultimately created crises of the welfare state in the post-pandemic period.

240
00:42:41.230 --> 00:42:42.060
Thanks.

241
00:42:46.460 --> 00:42:52.180
 Robin, there's one more question here from Jimmy Abyssina. Can we take that? Yeah.

242
00:42:52.350 --> 00:42:53.500
Jimmy's coming up.

243
00:42:53.770 --> 00:42:55.189
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, okay, all right.

244
00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:12.519
So thank you for your for the presentation for the presentation. I mean, I think this is, this is fascinating. I mean, I I I I think I'll re-emphasize the point to was made in terms of who really has the leverage

245
00:43:12.560 --> 00:43:17.429
in terms of impact of policy.

246
00:43:17.540 --> 00:43:26.460
shipping the post-pandemic environment. Just as an example. The the World Bank.

247
00:43:26.930 --> 00:43:29.870
you know, offered a lot of loans

248
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:35.710
which was supposed to be pandemic response loans.

249
00:43:35.890 --> 00:43:49.320
But in in a number of cases. a niger. As an example of that K. As an example of that where the loans have actually been used. Now to deepen.

250
00:43:49.390 --> 00:44:01.079
it's it's tick on, you know. Cash transfer. whatever all the illusions about cash, plus, you know, and so on, and so forth.

251
00:44:01.140 --> 00:44:13.539
in in in, in in deepening the use of social registers, for instance, which has a long term impact on on shipping the social policy landscape

252
00:44:13.620 --> 00:44:20.819
in many of this. So the first is is who really had the part to

253
00:44:20.850 --> 00:44:36.550
affect, you know. you know, policy and and here you look at you know, even I, a low, you know, resource. The World Bank. the. You see, this is relatively marginal in that sense, you know.

254
00:44:36.720 --> 00:44:40.260
and and the future really in terms of

255
00:44:40.750 --> 00:44:42.319
what do you call it?

256
00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:49.060
helping to ship responses, you know. to to the pandemic.

257
00:44:49.780 --> 00:44:50.720
Thank you.

258
00:44:57.050 --> 00:44:58.860
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah.

259
00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:11.680
John Berten: yeah, thank you. Thank you very much for these 2 great questions or the set of questions. I mean Alexandra, you also welcome to join in since you've co-written this paper?

260
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.739
John Berten: all right. So I mean.

261
00:45:14.100 --> 00:45:33.929
John Berten: regarding the first questions, did we look at beyond what institutions said, but also to what they what they did, and that's of course I mean you. You gave a great example. There, that that then it's something that should be should be included in any any research on

262
00:45:33.930 --> 00:45:47.080
John Berten: on I/O, advice on the pandemic. But in this paper we have basically been staying on the on the level of ideas. So on the level of ideas in in in, in these documents that they they put out. So

263
00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:51.909
John Berten: this is, of course, something that I just yeah.

264
00:45:52.110 --> 00:45:53.550
John Berten: I would

265
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.780
John Berten:  that I think should should be discussed, probably in in in other papers.

266
00:46:00.220 --> 00:46:23.720
John Berten: because it's a it's a an important difference that you would that you're pointing to. And also, I mean, the same can be set in relation to the second question, which of these I always had to influence policies at the national level. And yeah, we we also, since we only stayed at the transnational level. We did not include country responses. These are part of the of the larger project. And we will look at

267
00:46:23.720 --> 00:46:41.799
John Berten: a number of of country cases. And there we can basically see this. yeah, these real relationships. I think better between between the ideational level of Ios and and the country level. But unfortunately, yeah, I I I don't think that

268
00:46:42.040 --> 00:46:47.549
John Berten: based on this paper. We can. We can have any answer. Unfortunately. Alexandra, you might want to.

269
00:46:47.630 --> 00:47:07.889
Alexandra Kaasch: Yeah, I just want to give some context realization. in the beginning of the presentation, John showed you that what we are doing is kind of part of a very huge research project on the one hand. So our project in particular is really about the global discourses that other

270
00:47:08.130 --> 00:47:12.709
Alexandra Kaasch: projects and other case studies can then connect to.

271
00:47:12.730 --> 00:47:29.339
Alexandra Kaasch: We did include a a national perspective in a completely unusual sense, and we haven't yet reached that point of the analysis. But what we want to do is to take a look at how these international organizations use

272
00:47:29.490 --> 00:47:49.800
Alexandra Kaasch: national cases to make particular arguments, and we picked a number of countries that are often used as good examples by the international organizations to see if in the context of the covid response, they are still put up as the positive examples, or if that has shifted.

273
00:47:49.810 --> 00:47:54.039
Alexandra Kaasch: but that is really, I mean, we can only focus

274
00:47:54.120 --> 00:48:18.850
Alexandra Kaasch: so exclusively on that global level, because there are many projects doing small and large and comparisons and doing detailed case studies that then kind of make the connection. So that's why we only focus on that. And this in this paper in particular. I mean, it's the first paper that we wrote. And it's really the first attempt to

275
00:48:19.040 --> 00:48:34.919
Alexandra Kaasch: find some patterns of the really global ideas around it. But that shouldn't shouldn't mean that it's not important how it has an impact and how there are different mechanisms that these organizations use to make ideas travel or have an impact.

276
00:48:39.640 --> 00:48:50.530
Robin Schulze Waltrup: yeah, thank you for for those, replies. I guess it makes sense to continue so the next one in person presentation, actually.

277
00:48:50.750 --> 00:48:56.890
Robin Schulze Waltrup: which is by Hannah Dawson. from the Southern Central for inequality studies

278
00:49:01.740 --> 00:49:04.350
everyone. So I just have to, I think.

279
00:49:13.410 --> 00:49:14.260
Yes.

280
00:49:17.520 --> 00:49:21.719
I was told to hide something, and I'm trying to find what was.

281
00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:24.970
oh, this.

282
00:49:25.200 --> 00:49:28.670
Thank you. Okay,

283
00:49:29.310 --> 00:49:34.290
so thanks. yeah, very much for having me And so

284
00:49:34.430 --> 00:49:43.480
the paper I'm presenting is titled slightly different now, redistributed politics and the temporality of crisis, reconfiguring social protection.

285
00:49:43.490 --> 00:49:46.090
in post-pandemic South Africa

286
00:49:46.170 --> 00:49:54.550
and 2 things. One, this paper is forthcoming in the Journal Global Social Policy. So look out for it. If you're interested

287
00:49:54.570 --> 00:50:04.859
and it's co-authored with my colleague, Liz Fuksman, who couldn't be at the is a and is based at King's College.

288
00:50:05.060 --> 00:50:25.849
London, and we've published other stuff before together, and in a sense this paper reflects it was written kind of throughout the pandemic, and reflects a kind of ongoing conversation that the 2 of us were having but reflects, I think, the kind of broader conversation that this panel also reflects thinking about policy futures afforded by the Covid pandemic, especially in our particular interest

289
00:50:25.850 --> 00:50:40.699
was around more universal and unconditional forms of redistribution and welfare in particular, that move away from a reliance on wage labour as the key source of economic security as the kind of realm of ideas which is part of this contestation and debate.

290
00:50:40.700 --> 00:51:10.050
And so our paper has a very national focus. We're particularly interested in the South African context. but at least the paper emerges out of us thinking about South Africa, comparatively thinking about the debates happening around these questions in the South African context as they relate to a global context. But just listening to the first 2 panels, it's very interesting for me to think about the things the debates playing out in South Africa as they relate to this kind of landscape of international actors. but that has not been the the primary focus of our work.

291
00:51:10.310 --> 00:51:11.819
So the paper

292
00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:20.880
just to get straight into it. So the pandemic, as all of you well, we have sparked a moment of both debate and optimism around widening social

293
00:51:20.900 --> 00:51:27.839
around widening social protection systems, and in particular the use of cash transfers.

294
00:51:28.010 --> 00:51:47.999
Cash chances, of course, were used very widely during the pandemic. In a wide range of context. and one particular aspect we we we zoom into in this paper is thinking about the global movement around universal basic income, but but also more broadly, cash transfers. And and what was playing out in that kind of at a global level and the debates there.

295
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:58.439
and there was, at least in the early period of the pandemic, a kind of sense and hope and optimism that this was a moment to shift things in in new directions.

296
00:51:58.950 --> 00:52:19.040
and in a sense some of that optimism was made possible by the fact that the State's usual response. For example, public work programs, or the assumption that the labour market was the primary source of economic security was not feasible under conditions of contagion and lockdown South Africa had an extremely harsh Lockdown for an extended period.

297
00:52:19.070 --> 00:52:47.479
but equally Government's declarations of a state of emergency or a state of disaster. The labelling of the pandemic, as both a health and an economic crisis did permit, increases in public spending in many places where spending had been decreasing in real terms for a previous decade. And you saw this in South Africa. But you saw it also in many other contexts. So in the paper we ask, this is really the kind of crux question we're trying to grapple with, which is, in what ways has the covid crisis

298
00:52:47.480 --> 00:53:15.730
shed light on the one hand, on the insufficiency of labour markets in justly distributing resources, but also in what ways did it create opportunities to refashion social protection and redistribution systems, especially beyond a work fair, and to do that, as I've said, we turn to the case of South Africa, which some of you might not be aware, but has a I assume most of you. You do have a very extensive cash transfer system.

299
00:53:15.820 --> 00:53:24.180
For us in particular, in this paper it has a history of political debates around basic income that go back to the early 2 thousands.

300
00:53:24.230 --> 00:53:42.599
And of course, and important, very important contextual factors is that it has endemically high rates of inequality and unemployment. way before the the Covid pandemic strike struck. So you know, and the unemployment rate sits at around 40%. And for young people, we're looking at unemployment rate of over 60%.

301
00:53:42.620 --> 00:53:48.450
So in the paper, we use original data from a survey that we conducted

302
00:53:48.510 --> 00:54:00.630
in 2,020 in a low-income area of inner city. Johannesburg, as well as interviews with government actors and civil society activists.

303
00:54:00.680 --> 00:54:07.989
and a close reading of the kind of policy and media landscape between 2020 and really, the beginning of this year.

304
00:54:08.590 --> 00:54:19.920
And in the paper we focus on what we call crisis temporalities, and what we mean by that is, in a sense, the way in which a kind of context, a crisis situation, shapes

305
00:54:20.490 --> 00:54:29.189
is everything fine. Oh, I'm so sorry so that you can see everyone as well

306
00:54:29.530 --> 00:54:30.420
if you like.

307
00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:50.430
Ok, sorry. I've got a piece of paper. I'm old school so hopefully, that's fine. I can also hold my paper on this side. so we focus on what we call crisis temporalities in particular, thinking about, how did the crisis context shape.

308
00:54:50.560 --> 00:55:10.589
on the one hand, the kind of short term present context and the kind of need for emergency responses. And then, on the other hand, is, how did the pandemic shape what the possibilities were with a much longer term kind of horizon. So we're thinking about time. What the crisis was doing to time in these 2 different ways.

309
00:55:10.640 --> 00:55:30.380
and in the paper we argue that the covid crisis has crystallized the gaps in South Africa's social protection system. However, the temporalities of crisis played at least a key role. We argue in curtailing more radical reforms to the social welfare system, such as more unconditional and generous forms of social protection.

310
00:55:30.900 --> 00:55:47.390
So I just want to state our argument up front. And then I'm going to give you just a quick snapshot of what we call in the paper kind of views from above. which is looking more at the views of different government departments and officials and civil society activists, and in view from below which

311
00:55:47.390 --> 00:56:03.940
primarily draws upon the survey we conducted. So we argue that crisis temporalities are critical to understanding why, in particular, a broad-based movement has not coalesced around a demand for more universal and redistributive forms of social protection.

312
00:56:03.940 --> 00:56:32.209
such as a basic income in South Africa. While our survey respondents seem to view cash chances from the State as essential for the kind of covid crisis moment, or for short-term survival. As we put it, they did not consider them a possible long-term source of economic security or just redistribution of resources, this temporal aspect, this idea that cash chances are really good for the present, really good for for survival, but not for kind of long-term economic futures.

313
00:56:32.210 --> 00:56:50.860
A sense is is very much reflected in both the State and civil society's framing of the COVID-19 grant, which I'll speak about now as a kind of response to a human humanitarian crisis, a kind of short-term crisis rather than a problem of structural unemployment and highly racialized inequality.

314
00:56:50.990 --> 00:57:13.069
So, viewing cash transfers as a form of poverty, alleviation, we argue rather than a claim for rightful distribution embeds them in this kind of presentist frame rather than a future orientated one, and we suggest that this is part of explaining the absence of a kind of mass-based movement around cash transfers in the South African context.

315
00:57:13.090 --> 00:57:17.440
So just quickly, a few points on on what I'm calling the from above. Section

316
00:57:17.600 --> 00:57:33.660
so South Africa in response to the pandemic did substantially bolster South Africa's social security net. I'm not going to go into all the details, but, in short, there was top up top-s on the already existing social grants.

317
00:57:33.660 --> 00:57:51.010
But the biggest change, and which is the focus of our interest. Here was the introduction of a new temporary cash transfer called the COVID-19 social relief of distress. Grant that that Grant actually existed, but was kind of reappropriated in the covered moment.

318
00:57:51.010 --> 00:58:12.239
And this was the first time millions of working aged adults received, and in particular men working. Aged men, received a cash transfer from the State, something that the post-aparted government, in the sense, has actively resisted since the Democratic transition, and at the peak of distribution of this grant we're talking about 10 million more beneficiaries.

319
00:58:12.350 --> 00:58:27.839
and this new grant was initially introduced for a period of 6 months under the regulations that were part of the Disaster Management Act. But it's been extended repeatedly in large part to fervent civil society campaigning. So the grant was first put in place for 6 months.

320
00:58:27.860 --> 00:58:33.099
Then it was terminated, and then we saw saw 2 short three-month extensions.

321
00:58:33.220 --> 00:58:41.050
Then the grant was terminated once again, but reinstated after a period of significant violence and unrest.

322
00:58:41.150 --> 00:58:53.239
And then ended once again, and we're now in the second 12 months, in the midst of a second 12 month extension. So there has been a shift in the length of time that the grant has been extended

323
00:58:53.240 --> 00:59:16.350
in the paper, we provide a detailed account of the debates and activism around this, on and off implementation of the covert, Srd grant. And we argue that the rhetoric and the actions of both the South African State and civil society activist groups around the implementation, the extension and the expansion of the Covid, Srd. Grant demonstrate the ways in which the covid crisis produced a sense of urgency.

324
00:59:16.350 --> 00:59:30.039
and this sense of urgency we argue on the one hand, did open up new avenues for public spending and more expansive welfare provision, and that can be seen as a kind of radical break or policy change. But yet, on the other hand.

325
00:59:30.540 --> 00:59:55.069
this expansion has not been able to dislodge a long-standing policy paradigm that sees cash transfers really as kind of stop gap measures rather than long term distributive interventions. And likewise the grant. Very much was still framed as a kind of emergency relief. To address human humanitarian kind of situation. rather than

326
00:59:55.350 --> 01:00:03.640
a a a measure for for really thinking about a a redistribute of measure that was trying to do something much more substantive.

327
01:00:03.940 --> 01:00:22.990
and then just quickly a few points from below. So, as I already mentioned in October 2020, between the first and second wave. After the first extension of this new COVID-19 Grant, we undertook a survey, and we did the survey in a place called Jppy

328
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:28.600
which is a deprived kind of inner city neighborhood of Johannesburg.

329
01:00:28.680 --> 01:00:52.450
And we why we wanted to do. The survey in this moment was precisely because this grant was new, and it was going to people who'd never received a cash transfer from the State before. And so what we were particularly interested in was eliciting people's broader views around the role of the State and of social security provision in ensuring both income security, but also more

330
01:00:52.470 --> 01:00:55.930
equitable forms of resource distribution.

331
01:00:56.100 --> 01:01:17.180
So we ended up interviewing 120 people. They were split. A survey. Sorry they were split largely, equally around gender. I can say more about the sample if you're interested in. But I'm not going to go into that now. and basically what emerged from the survey was, there was overwhelming levels of support for the introduction of the Covid grant

332
01:01:17.180 --> 01:01:33.410
for very much a sense that it should be expanded to a more generous amount. but also that it should be made more permanent especially for the unemployed. So, for example, in the survey, 84% of people supported the introduction of the Covid grant

333
01:01:33.410 --> 01:01:53.639
82% thought the amount, which is a very, very small amount. 350 South African Rand was too small, and 74% are still, you know, a significant a number, but a little bit less than the first 2 felt that this ground should be made permanent. for the unemployed.

334
01:01:54.410 --> 01:02:16.899
So, in a sense, there seem to be high levels of support for more expansive forms of social social protection or cash transfers, and this is very much echoed by other work by colleagues in South Africa. A survey that was done, for example, by the Hsrc. And Uj. And yet in the long form answers, but also in a particular survey question. We asked

335
01:02:17.140 --> 01:02:40.170
respondents to say, Well, if the Government had to. If if the Government had a set of policy options, you know, what do you think is the most important one for them to do in response to the economic fallout of the pandemic. And here we saw a very different picture emerge. So in that sense grants to the unemployed were the were only picked as as the priority area for 7% of our respondents

336
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:49.669
and government work programs. Business funding entrepreneurial programs, for example, were ranked as the top 3 by 34%, 28% and 24% of people.

337
01:02:49.770 --> 01:03:15.139
And so what we kind of try to unpack in the paper. And this also very much echoes both. And as in our other existing work, And so what we try to unpack in the paper is the kind of important difference between those who did and will, and potentially could benefit the most from this. Srd. Grant. Looking at the distinction between their support of this grant

338
01:03:15.300 --> 01:03:23.519
alongside their preference, or their lack of preference for this grant, and how that shapes demand making, or the politics around this policy within a particular local context.

339
01:03:23.620 --> 01:03:48.780
 and and so that there is potentially high levels of support for universal transfers. But a preference for kind of productivist interventions. we argue, kind of is is is is one way. It's one element of trying to explain the absence of a mass-based a movement or or set of demands for this grant to be extended.

340
01:03:48.810 --> 01:04:16.950
and we unpack. As I mentioned earlier, part of that is, we think, tied to this kind of temporal distinction. This idea that social grants are really good for the present, really good for survival, but are not seen to imagine economic, secure futures, and that this is very much tales with the kind of government, but also civil society's framing of the COVID-19. Grant, as a kind of emergency response measure rather than something more substantive

341
01:04:16.950 --> 01:04:19.080
than that.

342
01:04:19.090 --> 01:04:22.970
So, just to conclude the temporal dimension of the covid crisis.

343
01:04:22.980 --> 01:04:35.260
did open up possibilities and support for certain forms of interventions while simultaneously delimiting their timescale, and thus the limiting the possibility for shifting public policy imaginaries

344
01:04:35.450 --> 01:04:41.480
away from more labor market interventions. So I'll stop there, and thanks for your attention.

345
01:04:44.170 --> 01:04:45.909
I should say that.

346
01:04:46.530 --> 01:04:51.099
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, thank you for the presentation. And are there any immediate questions or comments?

347
01:05:10.780 --> 01:05:18.960
Anything from day. One here, I think. Yeah. Otherwise I'm happy to wait for the Q. And a thing you know Rith has one.

348
01:05:22.640 --> 01:05:32.169
Thanks so much, Hannah, for this terrific paper. I was wondering if there was any discussion in your surveys around a sort of

349
01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:43.489
people's conception of the State. So in the context of a South African State in the context of load, shedding frustration with corruption, etc. To what extent

350
01:05:43.800 --> 01:05:48.770
could ideas of you know citizenship or distrust of the State also play

351
01:05:48.860 --> 01:05:49.960
into that.

352
01:05:58.550 --> 01:06:12.569
Hi, it's been skeleton also from Vitz and South Africa. yeah. thanks for the paper. So maybe just a comment. One is that I was just thinking as you're talking. There was also an expansion of public employment

353
01:06:12.620 --> 01:06:33.300
the Presidential jobs program, or something that it just called. So South Africa already had an extensive Grant program. It already had an extensive public employment program they were both expanded during the during the crisis, and I don't know. I I I don't. It's not a question but like thinking about those 2 things

354
01:06:33.390 --> 01:06:35.570
together. And

355
01:06:35.670 --> 01:06:40.210
this, maybe again, is not a question, but a provocation. You said you kept framing it as

356
01:06:40.310 --> 01:06:42.949
an alternative to labour market interventions

357
01:06:43.190 --> 01:07:09.939
but the jobs programs what I mean. That's what I work on. And what's so interesting about them is they're not the labor market. It's not. You don't go into the labor market and apply for a job. It's like a the State giving you a job which is not, I think, the fact that they're not a kind of market Based intervention is very important to their politics and the way people understand and and engage with them. So I I I won't take a long time to explain why. I think that's interesting. But

358
01:07:09.960 --> 01:07:12.350
I guess the

359
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:19.970
they're both forms of State intervention and very different ones. They're both ones which recognize the market is not working to provide jobs.

360
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:25.239
But they have different meanings, obviously. And that's what you're trying to differentiate. So maybe you can comment on that.

361
01:07:28.240 --> 01:07:29.270
And

362
01:07:29.730 --> 01:07:47.979
yeah, thanks for both of those. They're they're really useful. And they're also helpful for future thinking and work. I mean, just on the first, I mean. So we didn't ask to Ruth's question about the State. We didn't ask specifically in that survey about the State. But I think I think this is is critical.

363
01:07:48.030 --> 01:08:09.390
I've been doing work for a much longer period of time on kind of protests in South Africa more broadly, and I think we are observing a kind of shift in that people are increasingly disillusioned and dissatisfied with this State, and they still have the same aspirations and expectations here. I'm thinking about kind of poor black South Africans on the whole, but across the board, actually

364
01:08:09.390 --> 01:08:28.390
So in the in the face of the the State, failing once and once again, people actually are retracting what they're expecting from the State, and they kind of getting on with provisioning in a whole range of other ways. If you think about this in relation to land and housing and electricity supplies. And so so I I do think.

365
01:08:28.720 --> 01:08:41.770
I mean at Ruth. I know you. You're thinking about this also in the context of Mozambique, and I think something similar is playing out. People don't trust the State. They trust the State less and less, not only in terms of its capacity to deliver. But

366
01:08:42.150 --> 01:09:09.569
to whom is it going to deliver? And so I think these, these these questions of but I think they're they're we're in the midst of a kind of longer-term shift in South Africa. which is an important one to watch in terms of how it how it shapes especially demand-making around a state provision across the board. But I do think castrons have kind of existed as as have existed in a different way to something like housing

367
01:09:09.570 --> 01:09:25.470
and other forms of public provisioning, which is something we don't get into in this paper, but I think is part of work that is kind of ongoing, and I think is really important. And then the end's really, really important questions. I mean, this is, in a sense, a complete bit of a

368
01:09:25.510 --> 01:09:31.960
like. The expansion of the Presidential employment organization to young People is not. We don't address that here, and I think now it seems kind of

369
01:09:32.180 --> 01:09:51.149
a real kind of gap, perhaps, to think about these 2 things kind of simultaneously, and they after lives. They kind of post pandemic after lives and when it comes to youth, unemployment, all they use at the question they are being stitched together in like they kind of viewed as connected policies, I think increasingly so just to say

370
01:09:52.220 --> 01:09:58.990
I don't ever have anything more to say. And then and then your question around like we do make a distinction here between kind of

371
01:09:59.060 --> 01:10:17.129
forms of State provisioning kind of cash versus labour. But I agree with you that in the South African context these could or could potentially all be framed as social welfare. you know, as you said, accepting the fact that the market is unable to absorb the large majority of of

372
01:10:17.360 --> 01:10:28.969
we're given our high levels of of unemployment. How that then shaped, I think for me, it's like there's more empirical work to be done like how these, even what we're trying to point out here, how temporal frames shade people's policy

373
01:10:28.980 --> 01:10:38.439
kind of visions and imaginaries, how that those map onto these different types of policies for me. And then how that gets picked up by broader political ideas and movements. for me is.

374
01:10:39.090 --> 01:10:42.159
let's do something together. Thanks so much for.

375
01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:46.129
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, thank you all for the discussion.

376
01:10:46.170 --> 01:10:57.199
Robin Schulze Waltrup: so let's continue with the last presentation. also in person. by Elenora. from

377
01:10:58.220 --> 01:11:01.219
Hi. if it works

378
01:11:06.180 --> 01:11:10.349
and your share just need to hide this, just go more on.

379
01:11:10.570 --> 01:11:14.410
Okay. thank you so much. Yeah.

380
01:11:14.770 --> 01:11:34.490
So Hi, good morning, everybody. I'm Elonora Kerichi. I'm a Phd. Student at the Las Vegas University of Rome. And today I'm going to present a collateral result of my Phd. Research. That is about social disclosure and inequality in the European cities.

381
01:11:34.590 --> 01:11:45.479
And as the presentation state I'm going to present how the local organization represents an answer against the extremeer forms of exclusion inequality in European cities.

382
01:11:45.690 --> 01:11:50.090
 I.

383
01:11:50.670 --> 01:12:05.679
The presentation is structured in 5 slides, and the first one will introduce the theoretical concept and framework that drive and guided the research. And does this presentation. Secondly, we present the context and a methodology adopted during the research.

384
01:12:05.680 --> 01:12:24.479
and then I will present who are the groups in the areas more affected by exclusion and inequality. And then I go to the heart of the presentation when I' to why a local organization represents a central role in dealing and managing exclusion inequality. And I conclude with some considerations.

385
01:12:25.110 --> 01:12:27.720
 okay.

386
01:12:27.790 --> 01:12:38.999
so my research and this presentation has to have a theoretical framework based on

387
01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:59.510
post colonial studies and urban studies. On the one hand, I used the concept of the abyssal exclusion introduced by Bovin Pradis of Santosa, who defined abyssal exclusion as a specific type of exclusion which is produced and reproduced by processes of envy, civilisation, interiorisation, and the humanisation

388
01:12:59.510 --> 01:13:16.130
so. Basically, according to him and his theory, there are some groups in society that are often unable to speak up, or they struggle in claiming their rights, or sometimes they are considered less or interior compared to the rest of the population, for several reasons.

389
01:13:16.130 --> 01:13:39.270
On the other hand, I also converge this post-colonian theory with advanced marginality, which is a theory belonging to the urban studies. And the Louisva can't introduce this concept to describe a new type of such as butter relegation, which is characterized by the confinement of a specific groups in specific areas of the city

390
01:13:39.490 --> 01:13:53.250
and in his According to him and These new forms of marginality are due to the uneven development of capitalistic economies and the decline of the welfare state.

391
01:13:53.250 --> 01:14:17.689
I use these 2 theories that belong to 2 different frameworks together, combined, because, on the one hand, post-colonial studies and abstract exclusion allow us to deepen in those type of exclusion that are often unrecognized and unexplored, and simultaneously urban studies give us a framework and a social urban contextualization on where and how the manifesto.

392
01:14:18.410 --> 01:14:41.449
so, as I mentioned. This presentation is about takes the results and data from a Phd research where one of the question was, who is experiencing abyssal exclusion and advanced marginality in European cities? And to answer this question I conducted 5 case studies in 5 European cities, one for Welfare State, which are Rome, Brussels, Stockholm, Bucharest, London.

393
01:14:41.450 --> 01:14:56.919
In each cities I conducted interviews with organizations and experts, organizations that worked with the several marginalized groups in society and in these cities and experts, such as academics, that study these dynamics in a

394
01:14:56.920 --> 01:15:06.439
a broader way. So between September the twentieth, 21, and November the twentieth, 22, I conducted 154 semi-structured interviews.

395
01:15:06.500 --> 01:15:28.979
The limit is 2 false. On the one hand, there are limits related to the qualitative research. So the lack of statistical data, the reliability and subjectivity of the participants, and the selection of the participants. On the other hand, another thing that might be seen as a limit is the fact that I interviewed organization and expert rather than individuals.

396
01:15:28.980 --> 01:15:38.629
But it was mainly due to a practical reason, because it was easier to get in touch with organizations and also for barrier languages. Because I do not speak all these languages.

397
01:15:38.630 --> 01:15:51.339
so just quickly, in a really synthetic way, according to the interviews. Abyssal exclusion and advanced marginality exists in the European cities.

398
01:15:51.340 --> 01:15:59.139
and sometimes they converge because there is a tendency to cluster vulnerable groups in marginal areas.

399
01:15:59.140 --> 01:16:23.959
On the other hand, sometimes they do not converge because of policy in place. The history of the structure of the city, and also the groups that face these dynamics are different, based on the city, some groups that are more recurrent, such as the Roman gyps and traveller community people living in public housing, homeless and documented, but they face and experience in different dynamics.

400
01:16:24.060 --> 01:16:40.609
However, as I thought in the beginning, the this presentation is the men about the role of organizations in dealing and managing these situations. And so lock organizations, and especially during the Covenant in pandemics,

401
01:16:40.610 --> 01:17:05.610
step in and cover and help these communities, because, on the one hand, they fill the gaps of the welfare because there has been several cuts and decline of the welfare and social protection in European cities in general. And so the local organisation stepped in and cover for these gaps. And specifically, during the COVID-19 pandemics.

402
01:17:05.610 --> 01:17:15.760
Most of the groups that I mentioned before were not covered by policy or the benefits that were distributed to help

403
01:17:15.760 --> 01:17:34.849
mit Ctl. And solve the situation. And so a lot of organisations provide for vaccination, food, assistance, legal advice, and also for the to school children to participate to school online. Secondly, local organisations speak up for vulnerable, vulnerable, and unheard groups, 150.

404
01:17:34.850 --> 01:17:47.810
And again, this was evident during the Covenant in pandemics with specific groups, such as the homeless, because they were not considered in the policy. Sometimes they were also criminalised because they were sleeping in the street when

405
01:17:47.810 --> 01:18:01.930
they were their fault. Thirdly, local organization raised awareness among these the communities, because they give them the information and tools to speak up for themselves. So there is a sort of empowerment of these communities, and also

406
01:18:01.950 --> 01:18:25.149
a way to break a circle of intergenerational inequality and exclusion. And lastly, they destigmatise these communities. And this is a central issue, because over these communities there is a strong level attached that might be due to individual characteristic, but also is related to the belonging of living a specific neighborhood.

407
01:18:25.150 --> 01:18:50.400
And so Local organization. provide a different image image, a different discourse over these communities, and so they give them a way to empower them themselves again. So, just to conclude, I have some consideration to make, first of all, the limits of the welfare, and by that I mean both the fact that welfare, state, and social policies or the

408
01:18:50.400 --> 01:19:09.759
the social protections are not able any more to cover for everybody, and also to really respond to the needs or the real needs of the population, but also to the fact that the currently the boundaries of the welfare is becoming one of the main causes of exclusion, because it defines what is, who is included and who is not.

409
01:19:09.760 --> 01:19:29.439
Secondly, there is a need for a a more quasi but stronger network among institutions, association residents, because we see and constantly see policies that are top down. And so they don't take into consideration the real need, the struggle of communities and areas. And so to some extent there has been

410
01:19:29.440 --> 01:19:52.839
a need for a more holistic holistic approach to respond with the tailored and proper policy and solutions. And lastly, we need the better data to better comprehend what is going on really, and also to monitor the improvement of this destruction. I leave here some references. If you' be interested and some specific on the case studies. And thank you so much.

411
01:19:58.170 --> 01:19:59.940
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, thank you, Eleanor.

412
01:20:00.030 --> 01:20:03.540
Robin Schulze Waltrup: are there any immediate questions?

413
01:20:19.430 --> 01:20:21.919
Does anyone know how the zoom comes back.

414
01:20:26.220 --> 01:20:27.070
Hmm.

415
01:20:27.220 --> 01:20:32.639
then. Well, why don't you come up zoom in progress? Write this completely.

416
01:20:33.890 --> 01:20:35.080
There we go.

417
01:20:36.460 --> 01:20:42.469
Robin Schulze Waltrup:  to stop share, probably the the red.

418
01:20:43.070 --> 01:20:45.340
Exactly.

419
01:20:46.300 --> 01:20:59.520
yeah, thanks for the presentation. so I'm not familiar with the the 2 concepts that that you introduced. I mean, I I began to understand them, but maybe you could say more

420
01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:13.089
about how you kind of operationalise them, because you get the table, saying there was a basil exclusion, but not in this case or that case. So how do you operationalize and determine in each case whether you're seeing one or not?

421
01:21:17.620 --> 01:21:47.609
Thank you so much for the question. So the the table was really a summary of the summary of the summary. To be honest. However I'll be an exclusion. it's less, it's more difficult to operate opioids. So you understand what I mean? Because it's a post-colonian concept. And sometimes even in the during the interviews. Some participants have argued that

422
01:21:48.030 --> 01:22:05.009
we can see exclusion without a specific name as the abyssal. In any case that is more related to a framework of thinking. But however, I am to open it and rehearsalize that through

423
01:22:05.130 --> 01:22:12.919
people that are not the right to speak up because they do not have the right legally, but also their voice are not heard.

424
01:22:12.920 --> 01:22:37.679
and they face more struggle in getting access to institutional service, and so on. On the other hand, the advanced marginality has actually 6 specific characteristics that I didn't specify because of time. And so I basically checked when and if these categories were covered, and in a specific case it

425
01:22:37.730 --> 01:22:40.290
is more related to

426
01:22:40.380 --> 01:22:47.489
the presence or not of territorial stigmatization. The decline in the in

427
01:22:47.540 --> 01:22:54.510
socioeconomic context of the situation of the the neighborhood. And so this is their way.

428
01:22:54.690 --> 01:22:55.940
Thank you so much.

429
01:23:01.020 --> 01:23:04.179
Robin, we just have one more question from the floor.

430
01:23:04.520 --> 01:23:05.490
Robin Schulze Waltrup: True.

431
01:23:09.380 --> 01:23:33.099
thanks for the Greek presentation. So I just wanted to push a little bit more on this abyssal exclusion, because if you are grounding it in post-colonial theory, then I suppose that part of it is about trying to understand how ideas or move beyond ideas of both in Toronto's assent would have argued, are sort of located within Western thoughts. So then.

432
01:23:33.230 --> 01:23:57.510
is there something about that theoretical approach that allows us to understand either the groups that are excluded or the role of organizations. So that was one and sort of like, you know. What are you? What does it allow you to push back against and in terms of norms. And then the other question I had was just around the relationship between the local organization and the State.

433
01:23:57.680 --> 01:24:04.109
And if, like part of what these local organizations are doing is increasing visibility.

434
01:24:04.390 --> 01:24:16.389
then are they making demands on the State? And is there, in fact, a sort of dialectical relationship between sort of local organizing and and clay making at a national level.

435
01:24:20.940 --> 01:24:38.479
Thank you again. So regarding the first question, Bob Androy, Sosa Santos! mainly introduced is the theoretical concept of abyssal exclusion. Also to describe those type of kind of, say,

436
01:24:38.850 --> 01:25:08.229
forms of exclusion that were produced or created during the colonial times in the southern part of the world, but they are reproducing themselves in the North, so to some extent it was a sort of a way to deepen in those type of exclusion as are, and often neglected or uncovered by the mainstream sociology, or that are often overlooked to some extent. So actually, I use the concept more to make it

437
01:25:08.560 --> 01:25:14.339
sort of to deepening those type of exclusion rather than

438
01:25:14.360 --> 01:25:33.239
focus on local organizations that actually it was something that emerged during the present, the the research because I didn't started with looking at them. And then I realized that they have a role that I didn't. considered in the beginning. while regarding the second question.

439
01:25:33.390 --> 01:25:58.249
large organization, they're trying to. It depends by city to some extent, and also the type of a relationship that they have with the State. but generally they are trying to give a new visibility and a different visibility, because most of the populations or groups that I mentioned are often stigmatized by media and institutions, by problematic troublemaker

440
01:25:58.310 --> 01:26:10.070
to avoid them, and so on, and so forth, while they try to give a different image by promoting an event or a discussion on them. But

441
01:26:10.340 --> 01:26:20.270
then, in reality, I think the the rules towards the real discussion and political discussion of inclusion is a little bit far away. Still.

442
01:26:20.850 --> 01:26:23.440
I don't know if I answer it properly. Your questions.

443
01:26:23.800 --> 01:26:24.750
Thank you.

444
01:26:27.660 --> 01:26:28.910
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Thank you.

445
01:26:29.440 --> 01:26:43.420
Robin Schulze Waltrup: okay, let's continue with our discussing now, which is Alexandra cash, and also from here at the University, Germany? and I think it makes sense to have.

446
01:26:43.690 --> 01:26:52.010
Robin Schulze Waltrup: yeah. The points coming from Alexandra, then have one final question round, and then every one of the presenters will have

447
01:26:52.190 --> 01:26:54.359
Robin Schulze Waltrup: the final word.

448
01:26:55.120 --> 01:26:57.250
Robin Schulze Waltrup: so yeah, please continue.

449
01:26:57.470 --> 01:26:59.860
Alexandra Kaasch: Okay, thank you for hoping.

450
01:26:59.950 --> 01:27:28.400
Alexandra Kaasch: yeah, thank you very much for these very interesting presentations and papers that I've written heard with great interest so fast joining from Europe. It's very early morning, and I'm reaching 22 h of being awake, so feel it's really hard to concentrate. But I prepared comments, and I will try to give them in a way that they still come across as start with a team with your paper?

451
01:27:28.520 --> 01:27:44.290
Alexandra Kaasch: you ask questions about the impact of global ideas on school feeding in Nigeria. And of course you know that I'm absolutely curious and interested in these kinds of questions. So I like papers with that perspective, and also

452
01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:55.390
Alexandra Kaasch: always these different findings that come out because it's never one story depending on what country you look at. So

453
01:27:56.600 --> 01:28:03.670
Alexandra Kaasch: of course I only saw the presentation and it. It is not fully developed. So my question

454
01:28:04.590 --> 01:28:14.119
Alexandra Kaasch: you might have thought about my questions already, and decided not to answer them, or that it's not possible. But I just tell you what what came up in my mind.

455
01:28:14.210 --> 01:28:32.420
Alexandra Kaasch: you talk about that school feeding is is financed nationally or or from international donors. but you didn't say how extended these programs are within the country. So I was wondering

456
01:28:32.420 --> 01:28:47.379
Alexandra Kaasch: how universal this school feeding is. Is that just some schools, or is it all schools? And I think also, Jimmy asked something about what level? so that was something that didn't get quite clear to me. And then

457
01:28:48.240 --> 01:28:50.120
Alexandra Kaasch: to what extent.

458
01:28:50.860 --> 01:29:13.080
Alexandra Kaasch: what the World Food Program be able to find in something. What kind of resources do they have? Or isn't it rather the World Bank? We would have to look at at least to contextualize for the country itself. It doesn't seem to matter that much. But if you study these organizations, of course, it is important to

459
01:29:13.270 --> 01:29:27.820
Alexandra Kaasch: to show what organization could be important. And why? And I think that that was something that was still missing from your presentation And then I was also thinking about. Okay.

460
01:29:27.840 --> 01:29:35.319
Alexandra Kaasch: you say the ideas might matter. So what ideas? Is it a particular concept of school feeding.

461
01:29:35.550 --> 01:29:39.600
Alexandra Kaasch: or the idea of school feeding as such? Or is it

462
01:29:39.710 --> 01:29:48.699
Alexandra Kaasch: expansion or the origin of a particular ideas. It wasn't quite clear on that, because it wasn't spelled out.

463
01:29:48.790 --> 01:30:13.199
Alexandra Kaasch:  so I don't. I've never studied this. I don't know if there are different programs or concepts or different mechanisms of redistribution behind, for example, or if you're rather thinking about something like this diffusion theory. But just a general idea about the meaning of school feeding spreads.

464
01:30:13.580 --> 01:30:29.190
Alexandra Kaasch: and when I was thinking about these issues and looking again at your presentation. I thought somehow, now, as it stands, that your research question and your first findings and the

465
01:30:29.470 --> 01:30:46.539
Alexandra Kaasch: title to the paper do not really fit quite well. So I understand that you started with these different questions at the different levels of policy making which I fully understand. But I guess what will come out in the end.

466
01:30:47.190 --> 01:30:52.610
Alexandra Kaasch: would perhaps rather be a a paper on National Dynamics.

467
01:30:52.670 --> 01:31:21.019
Alexandra Kaasch: and then there might be things that you cannot explain or that that are surprising. And then you might consider if the global ideas matter. But from all that you told so far, I'm not sure if it's a good example, to really show global impact. But that's by just be, because it hasn't really written down completely. But I wasn't fully convinced that

468
01:31:22.200 --> 01:31:33.090
Alexandra Kaasch: that it serves as a good example for a standalone paper on this country with regard to the global level in a comparative perspective, so that, of course, might be different.

469
01:31:33.290 --> 01:31:39.440
Alexandra Kaasch: Or if you wanted to show that the open ideas do not matter, then perhaps it's also a good case. I don't know.

470
01:31:39.710 --> 01:32:05.040
Alexandra Kaasch: yeah, that's basically what I wanted to to ask or to discuss with regard to your pivot. One last question, because you also mentioned the African Union. if you make a a conceptual difference between global international organizations and world regional international organizations. Or if you study or consider them in the same way.

471
01:32:06.190 --> 01:32:18.969
Alexandra Kaasch: So then John presented, and I don't have comments on the paper that I Co. Offered, because I think that would be a bit strange, I hope, for the audience to perhaps come up with some more comments that

472
01:32:19.140 --> 01:32:36.870
Alexandra Kaasch: when I read Hannah's paper, I thought, that's perspective actually fits quite well. with what we do in this project, even though we, of course, don't look much at the national level, but rather at the global one studying international organizations.

473
01:32:37.160 --> 01:32:38.730
Alexandra Kaasch: So this paper.

474
01:32:38.750 --> 01:32:52.339
Alexandra Kaasch: it's focused on the possibilities for radical redistributary policies or the potential of those, and tries to understand what happened in South Africa. One

475
01:32:52.570 --> 01:32:57.689
Alexandra Kaasch: following the difficult covid situations with a focus on labour markets.

476
01:32:59.260 --> 01:33:12.869
Alexandra Kaasch: and it kind of asked what the covid crisis revealed in terms of insufficiency of labour markets in just the distributing resources and the resulting potential for a radical policy change.

477
01:33:13.860 --> 01:33:24.129
Alexandra Kaasch: and also kind of what was the impact of a specific political rhetoric on the possibilities, on making some something different in the longer term

478
01:33:25.700 --> 01:33:38.399
Alexandra Kaasch: you describe, that there have been temporal top ups of existing benefits, and that in you temporary cash transfer this COVID-19 social relief of the stress Grant was introduced.

479
01:33:38.550 --> 01:33:45.650
Alexandra Kaasch: that you argue that this well, on the one hand,

480
01:33:45.870 --> 01:34:01.209
Alexandra Kaasch: new avenues for public spending and expansive social policies came up the way it was politically framed, and phrase prevented from a more systemic shift in the social policy arrangements. At least that was what I understood from the paper.

481
01:34:01.210 --> 01:34:17.810
Alexandra Kaasch: So while the Covid is A. D. Grant might at the first glance look like a radical policy, change. It did not really change much so it remind an an emergency measure and not the beginning of a radical change.

482
01:34:17.900 --> 01:34:34.089
Alexandra Kaasch: I think this sounds interesting and convincing. However, I also had some questions. When I reflected on research, I have done particularly on the global economic and financial crisis and what happened afterwards with social policies.

483
01:34:34.760 --> 01:34:48.909
Alexandra Kaasch: So I found myself struggling a bit with this underlying expectations that the grant should be available, even if the crisis situation is no longer there. So why should there be

484
01:34:49.010 --> 01:34:52.510
Alexandra Kaasch: a more general systemic change isn't

485
01:34:52.730 --> 01:35:03.810
Alexandra Kaasch: the whole idea of an emergency measure that it's act in this type of crisis and emergency, and that you also think about the ending of that

486
01:35:03.900 --> 01:35:06.039
Alexandra Kaasch: or is.

487
01:35:06.370 --> 01:35:22.310
Alexandra Kaasch: is a perceived to turn the argument around? Is the perceived crisis really the moment for general decisions on permanent changes? I'm I'm not saying there is a definite answer to it. I just found myself asking these questions when I read your paper.

488
01:35:22.670 --> 01:35:23.770
Alexandra Kaasch: and then

489
01:35:23.799 --> 01:35:47.860
Alexandra Kaasch: I saw that you argued that the Srd. Grant already existed earlier, and I was thinking about this literature on the automatic stabilizes. And I was wondering, is it then just an automatic stabilizer which would even more be an argument. Why, it then would end once the situation is not that extreme any longer?

490
01:35:48.990 --> 01:35:53.559
Alexandra Kaasch: And if it were an automatic stabilizer, then

491
01:35:53.959 --> 01:36:02.609
Alexandra Kaasch: it would already be part of the system, so one wouldn't kind of expect that it. It changes something, it gets integrated. So perhaps this

492
01:36:02.730 --> 01:36:08.730
Alexandra Kaasch: literature on the automatic stabilizers could help to shop in the argument a bit.

493
01:36:10.530 --> 01:36:24.750
Alexandra Kaasch: And then I had a completely different thought. And I really don't know if that makes sense or not. It just came out of me thinking again about crisis management and the automatic stabilizes. So if

494
01:36:26.129 --> 01:36:38.699
Alexandra Kaasch: if discussing crisis. Social policy changes these links and the crisis talk. If that could be a way of preventing in a way this

495
01:36:38.820 --> 01:36:49.450
Alexandra Kaasch: expansion, retrenchment, rhetoric by having something that justifies that something, that something is done, and not so much in which direction it should go.

496
01:36:50.809 --> 01:37:07.400
Alexandra Kaasch: If that helps for the paper, I don't know, and I? I know that it's a fairly advanced in the process of being published it it gives a social policy. So it should be rather things that we could perhaps discuss then something that you should rewrite your paper with.

497
01:37:08.850 --> 01:37:10.100
Alexandra Kaasch: And then there were.

498
01:37:10.500 --> 01:37:14.950
Alexandra Kaasch: There was one more thing I was thinking about, and that was

499
01:37:15.459 --> 01:37:29.339
Alexandra Kaasch: that there's an awful lot of perspective in your paper. So I wasn't quite, quite clear. Why, for example, civil society came into the analysis. I understood the arguments in a way, but

500
01:37:29.780 --> 01:37:39.690
Alexandra Kaasch: perhaps the framing is a bit too broad, having the policy, national policy making and civil society perspectives in

501
01:37:39.970 --> 01:37:46.349
Alexandra Kaasch: at the same time. So in different words, they, the unit of analysis, wasn't

502
01:37:46.400 --> 01:37:48.639
Alexandra Kaasch: fully clear at all.

503
01:37:48.790 --> 01:38:04.719
Alexandra Kaasch: In all steps to me. I I thought, it's quite a lot. that what you're telling us? But it was very interesting to read it. just in some places it could have been a bit more focused on the one or the other.

504
01:38:06.910 --> 01:38:33.769
Alexandra Kaasch: Okay? And then finally, on Illinois's paper. I think this paper was moved to our session. So it does not really speak to the topic. And I'm not an expert at all in in this topic area, but I at least try to ask some questions also about this paper. I found it really interesting, because I know that there is literature in cities and also cities and social policy. I've never engaged with that.

505
01:38:34.400 --> 01:38:35.660
Alexandra Kaasch: And it was

506
01:38:36.110 --> 01:38:43.159
Alexandra Kaasch: for me new perspective, interesting perspectives. How to look at social problems.

507
01:38:44.940 --> 01:38:46.070
Alexandra Kaasch: So what

508
01:38:47.250 --> 01:38:50.539
Alexandra Kaasch: what I struggled a bit with was.

509
01:38:51.150 --> 01:39:01.979
Alexandra Kaasch: what exactly do you want to explain? Is it just kind of patterns of exclusion or inequalities? Or is there kind of a

510
01:39:02.500 --> 01:39:25.069
Alexandra Kaasch: the specific puzzle of what is the exact research question as I saw you asking a question, but I wasn't sure if if that had much of an explanatory value, and at the same time you have this incredibly great and rich data that I cannot even imagine how you collected that in the context of your Phd,

511
01:39:25.190 --> 01:39:37.270
Alexandra Kaasch: so I would have really like to see more what you did with this data, and and how you did it, and and what it reveals. because, for example.

512
01:39:38.180 --> 01:39:47.779
Alexandra Kaasch: only looking at the the cities yet that you studied for me the the justification of the case. Case selection

513
01:39:47.790 --> 01:39:52.300
Alexandra Kaasch: wasn't really clear, so I I don't even have an idea of

514
01:39:52.690 --> 01:40:08.920
Alexandra Kaasch: why you should choose these cases, and what is interesting about them. And and where are the similarities and the differences? So I would have really like to hear a bit more about that, but I don't know where your Phd. Project stands, and probably it's just

515
01:40:08.940 --> 01:40:17.100
Alexandra Kaasch: this general report that you can give at the moment, and the more specific steps will then follow. But a very interesting project.

516
01:40:18.050 --> 01:40:23.740
Alexandra Kaasch: Okay, these are my comments and questions. And now I hands back to you, Robin.

517
01:40:23.970 --> 01:40:26.080
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, thanks, Alexander, for the input.

518
01:40:27.110 --> 01:40:35.280
Robin Schulze Waltrup: So yeah, now, with the opportunity for a very quick round of question that I would say, are there any questions

519
01:40:35.460 --> 01:40:37.250
Robin Schulze Waltrup: that you still want to ask.

520
01:40:45.080 --> 01:40:53.889
Robin, there's none in the room. So maybe we just move to and responses to. Alex is really helpful.

521
01:40:54.700 --> 01:40:59.240
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Alright, yeah, I I would actually post a question. Then, if there is no question

522
01:40:59.300 --> 01:41:03.530
Robin Schulze Waltrup: which which would go to Tim.

523
01:41:03.620 --> 01:41:14.170
Robin Schulze Waltrup:  I was just curious hearing about the sort of international funding in terms of food programs. How does it actually look like to the international actors?

524
01:41:14.420 --> 01:41:25.729
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Basically fun food Or are they also engaged in some sort of state building or or creating a governance structures? Or is there also some sort of

525
01:41:25.840 --> 01:41:31.749
Robin Schulze Waltrup: which seems to be not the case with Nigeria, because there is no funding. But since you introduced the

526
01:41:32.010 --> 01:41:41.919
Robin Schulze Waltrup: and I also also curious to know about the case of a Nigeria. Why, there is no funding. Is this reluctance from the international level, or is this coming from the nation's?

527
01:41:43.390 --> 01:41:49.080
Robin Schulze Waltrup: So yeah. I think. how much?

528
01:41:49.500 --> 01:41:54.950
Robin Schulze Waltrup: It's 8 min. So I guess we don't have any additional question or coming to John.

529
01:41:55.050 --> 01:42:02.600
Robin Schulze Waltrup: So we have 3 presenters having their final words. So it's

530
01:42:04.900 --> 01:42:07.940
Robin Schulze Waltrup: well, 2 min, basically.

531
01:42:09.000 --> 01:42:11.359
Robin Schulze Waltrup: yeah, we can start with

532
01:42:11.670 --> 01:42:13.049
Robin Schulze Waltrup: 10. The first one.

533
01:42:14.740 --> 01:42:18.530
Tim Dorlach: Yes, thank you so much for calling sign up for this.

534
01:42:18.720 --> 01:42:44.559
Tim Dorlach: careful reading of and not yet finished paper. this is very useful at this moment, because it's still, you know, we can include it much more easily, and also, Robin, thank you for your question or account, or what cannot answer to all of it, but maybe to a few of those last point also added to kind of connect that with. But Alexandra mentioned about to how that's the international funding look like. So this is actually, I think, quite interesting. Why we want to look at this

535
01:42:44.600 --> 01:43:11.820
Tim Dorlach: with regard to the World Food Program, even though we now turns out that in the Nigerian case it's not so relevant and that the World Food Program is one of the international organizations that study very little, even though it has quite a lot of money. So the World Food program has as a budget, that is, you know, over 10 billion or so each year. So compared to some other organizations that work mostly with ideas and expertise. So to say, that well, good program has that

536
01:43:11.820 --> 01:43:37.339
Tim Dorlach: it carried, so to say, to actually fund a large programs. how does it. Look, it's not just food. So it's often so it often depends. Sometimes it's also the implementation low, usually in lower capacity states. The whole implementation is run by the world's cool program. Sometimes the implementation is by by by the country, and it's more to funding. The goal is usually to face out that support and to afterwards.

537
01:43:37.340 --> 01:43:44.350
Tim Dorlach: then have the the the countries run those school feeding programs by themselves with their own funding.

538
01:43:44.350 --> 01:44:14.250
Tim Dorlach: So that's usually the idea that there is as Robin. There is some form of state building goal or building up sustainable programs. And then perhaps one question to quickly answer from Alexander about what are those ideas? It is true that it's not very complex ideas. It's really more in the sense that this is something that should be done, and a publicly financed form. So this usually school feeding as it is still in Germany. In most places. Privately, finance parents have to pay for this, and some kids will be able to get it in some not.

539
01:44:14.250 --> 01:44:22.450
Tim Dorlach: And the idea is basically this should change. This should not be paid by the consumer, so to say, but it should be publicly financed

540
01:44:22.450 --> 01:44:42.639
Tim Dorlach: whether it's the the government or an international organization, so a quite simple idea, so to say. But it is interesting, because usually of my ideas have been in the other way, more in the form of retrenchment, or, you know, in this direction. Yes, thank you for all those questions, they will really help me. continue to build the paper with my call.

541
01:44:43.940 --> 01:44:50.719
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah, thanks for being so quick and concise. so the next one would be and then

542
01:44:54.940 --> 01:45:17.479
thanks very much, Alexandra, for those we were really hopeful comments. I just don't respond in this way. First, I want to make 2 clarifications, which maybe, if people are less familiar with this African context, are useful. So the first is, as as you said at the end. I didn't get a chance to say it in my presentation, which was that the social relief of distress, Grant was an existing grant.

543
01:45:17.710 --> 01:45:31.149
That's always been a part of the Social Assistance Act in South Africa, I mean in the post apartheid kind of moment, but one that could access that grant, and the very specific kind of conditions of crisis of kind, of humanitarian emergency.

544
01:45:31.170 --> 01:45:59.839
So the most common situation would be. For example, in an informal settlement there was a large shack fire, or a situation of a flood, so a very particular kind of extreme set of circumstances, one could then you, through a set of bureaucratic hoops access that kind of grant. So so so the the sod was a pre-existing grant within a a frame. And then, but because the Disaster Management Act was

545
01:46:00.130 --> 01:46:14.650
put in place. That then provided the legislative parameters for this Srd. Grant to be provided in this kind of stopstock manage so so, in a sense, one could have written a whole paper just around the kind of legislative

546
01:46:14.780 --> 01:46:39.780
dimensions that made, for example, in an existing emergency and measure to be available in this kind of stop-start manner. So that's the that's the first thing. And then the other context is which I think is very important in this African context, and is maybe not the case in in a number of other places represented in these conversations, at least today, is that kind of a permanent basic income, for the

547
01:46:39.780 --> 01:46:45.680
has been an active policy debate in question going back to the early 2 thousands

548
01:46:45.680 --> 01:46:59.469
and so you know why we I agree that the kind of unit of analysis is not clear, and you could have had a whole paper just on civil society or just on the state, but in a sense the State itself is so contested on this question

549
01:46:59.660 --> 01:47:09.749
as is the civil society, we would not have. The grant would not exist in my belief that it's still in an ongoing form. Now.

550
01:47:09.810 --> 01:47:13.579
post covert in a longer twelve-month iteration.

551
01:47:13.610 --> 01:47:41.130
If it wasn't for a very fervent civil society who, in a sense, saw this crisis moment. very much to your question of, is a perceived crisis, a time for making long-term changes like a very fervent civil society in South Africa, said absolutely yes, and used it to kind of reformulate a basic income coalition which actually looked quite similar in terms of the people involved from the early 2,000 s. This for me, is fascinating. 20 year kind of hiatus

552
01:47:41.130 --> 01:47:51.990
you have this reconfiguration of policy actors, some of whom worked inside the State for some of those years, and now are back out, you know. So there's lots to be said there. And so

553
01:47:52.290 --> 01:48:21.389
so I think those are the 2 kind of important kind of contextual questions. But yet, if one, I couldn't get into this, if one now looks at the amendment to the regulation, the nitty, gritty kind of work happening day to day in the departments. What one sees is this, you see the contestation playing out in the legislative amendments. On the one hand, the fact that this grant exists for 12 months does suggest a kind of shift. This was a grant you could normally only access for 2 months in an individual capacity. If you'd had

554
01:48:21.500 --> 01:48:45.820
Your shack burnt down, for example. Now you still have significantly more numbers of people receiving it. but you know it's under threat once again. So we kind of living. We're living through this very kind of contentious kind of moment around the future of this particular policy, and I think it reflects that there was something pre-existing and something distinct, and I think the civil society aspect is a big part of the fact that this is

555
01:48:45.820 --> 01:48:58.110
a real debate that is is ongoing in the South African context. And I I do hope that it's for me. I would like to think more about where these international actors map onto the contestations playing out

556
01:48:58.520 --> 01:49:26.780
components of the State in South Africa do not agree with each other, and I think some reflect a more. I, O position, and others reflect a more world bank position. And this there's a kind of mash up of ideas happening within the State. But for me. So that point and the the longer histories of debates around social protection, social grants, basic income in South Africa, I think, also speak to Jimmy's comment on the earlier paper about longer histories and the importance of the national context as it speaks to the International. Thanks.

557
01:49:27.400 --> 01:49:31.360
Robin Schulze Waltrup: All right. Thank you. Then you have no doubt, please.

558
01:49:34.460 --> 01:49:46.759
Hi. And again, thank you so much for the questions. you're right. I didn't get a lot of a framework of my Phd thesis? because in reality the Phd.

559
01:49:46.760 --> 01:50:11.760
Wanted to answer it. 3 questions. So the first one was how the European Union defined frame and calculate such a exclusion. Inequality. The second one was, if in the European cities or in Europe there are forms of extremer cases of exclusion and inequality, and if they are considered within this framework or not, and lastly, if the indicator that we are using are actually able to capture what is going on.

560
01:50:11.760 --> 01:50:19.569
or if some dimension is missing. So this is where the framework and then in in

561
01:50:19.570 --> 01:50:48.270
in the process. I realized that this role of the look at the role of a look organization. And it was like, Oh, I didn't consider it in the beginning. regarding how I selected the city's name. So the countries I decided to pick one city's per was for State, because otherwise I didn't want to do a research only on the city that were worst in Europe. Otherwise I didn't want to end up in a typical discourse of the

562
01:50:48.270 --> 01:51:11.180
some. Cities are good that they are not. Let's say so. I picked one per one for State and selection was based on the ones that perform worse in the indicators. So, for instance, arroy and genie in a 2 between 2020, 22 and 2220 20 the ones that has less

563
01:51:11.180 --> 01:51:29.649
percentages of a lot of social protections through the datasets. And though in the the countries that has more country recommendations by the European Union. and so based on who performed worse, I selected the 5 Cities.

564
01:51:29.650 --> 01:51:40.310
There is London, which is not part any more of the European Union. I know that. It was more interesting than Dublin, and so I, and also perform more than Dublin. So I pick for that.

565
01:51:40.310 --> 01:51:59.789
And lastly, about what am I doing with all the data? I'm actually finalizing my Phd, I should submit my pieces by the end of the year. So I'm still writing and trying to analyze everything in the beginning idea was to write the paper by it for each cities or by group.

566
01:51:59.790 --> 01:52:15.340
and I did. In the beginning I wanted to do that in the meantime, but then I find myself a little bit overwhelmed by this data, and so the plan is to write in the future about obesity or by groups.

567
01:52:15.520 --> 01:52:17.560
Thank you.

568
01:52:18.780 --> 01:52:20.430
Robin Schulze Waltrup: You know. Thank you.

569
01:52:21.370 --> 01:52:29.000
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Yeah. I think that's basically sorry for going a little bit over the time. But I still hope that you enjoyed discussion.

570
01:52:29.490 --> 01:52:32.259
yeah, I wish all the ones that are in Europe.

571
01:52:32.310 --> 01:52:33.740
Robin Schulze Waltrup: Finally, a good night.

572
01:52:33.930 --> 01:52:38.779
Robin Schulze Waltrup: and the ones that I'm Australia and have a good rest of the day. thank you.