WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:24.360 So good afternoon, everybody here in the room and online. on behalf of Monica Bodowski. I would like to also pay respect to the spirit of the country. Here in the arm where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and present cooling nation bull on Jerry Voyeur as the sovereign people here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote 2 00:00:24.500 --> 00:00:37.260 the norm, aboriginal law, customs and custodianship, responsibilities for country and the people that country continues to sustain generation after the generation into the future for all of us 3 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:55.279 erez agmoni. So thank you very much to join, for for for this session we have some changes in the program that I have to announce before we start the first paper that has been supposed to present here by 250, 4 00:00:55.280 --> 00:01:09.860 I, Chiang Yi, Alexandra Kash and Kelly Stetter, emerging trends in social policy from and for the South. Institutions and actors, unfortunately, will not be presented due to a medical urgency. 5 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:23.690 The second paper in the program by Lauren Graham, the University of Joeburg, and Arian Delany University of Cape Town, is a pre recorded paper, so we can 6 00:01:23.750 --> 00:01:47.570 listen to the presentation later on. But as the the presenters are not going to be online to answer questions. We suppose that we play this at the end of the session, because we would like to prefer starting with these papers where the people are around here in the room or online, and where we can have discussions afterwards. 7 00:01:47.720 --> 00:01:59.700 And so we are actually going to start this evening with the third paper on the program by Zandi pantry party being in debt to avoid poverty, please, on the bung 8 00:02:08.830 --> 00:02:09.850 here. 9 00:02:12.810 --> 00:02:17.889 You can present it from here like that. Everybody can hear it. 10 00:02:18.030 --> 00:02:18.989 There you go. 11 00:02:23.710 --> 00:02:28.120 Thank you for organizing this panel. 12 00:02:28.180 --> 00:02:30.350 and 13 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:37.000 I have to mention that this this presentation comes from my findings from the field. 14 00:02:37.040 --> 00:02:39.029 which 15 00:02:39.830 --> 00:02:48.449 I'm not that old. It's just 11 months old, I was in the field. I am doing my field work back in India. And 16 00:02:48.870 --> 00:02:51.010 yeah, so 17 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:53.780 1 s. 18 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:02.040 okay. 19 00:03:05.100 --> 00:03:05.980 here. 20 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:23.200 So I'm I'm a qualitative sociologist trained by anthropologists, so my presentation might appear very descriptive and raw in their details, so I would appreciate any feedback or comments on that. 21 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:32.659 So yeah, I'll speak today of how a strategy emerges to mitigate poverty. 22 00:03:32.860 --> 00:03:41.119 And as I do that as a sociologist and as an ethnographer, I will root it in the thought process of the strategy. 23 00:03:41.700 --> 00:03:46.330 As you can see from the title. The strategy is being in debt. 24 00:03:46.550 --> 00:03:53.050 That is what buyers one time, and that is what keeps someone from falling into poverty. 25 00:03:53.190 --> 00:03:57.810 or at least that is the social thought of my interlocutors in the field site. 26 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:02.920 Correct. 27 00:04:04.350 --> 00:04:17.179 So My field work spanned over 11 months, in which I stayed in the eastern region of India. It is a state called Orissa, or, or, as it was previously known. 28 00:04:17.210 --> 00:04:21.050 and within it is a region called Asca. 29 00:04:21.140 --> 00:04:27.140 which has Asia's first sugar factory, established in the early 1,008 hundreds. 30 00:04:28.170 --> 00:04:38.829 200 years later. The sugar factory now runs for hardly a month, and manufactures vodka, which is again sold in the illicit liquor markets. 31 00:04:39.320 --> 00:04:52.940 Aska is an important region in terms of the flow of capital. while only being covered by a 12 kilometer stretch road, and being a rather narrow patch of land. 32 00:04:53.020 --> 00:05:01.869 an adjacent to which are 2 major rivers, as well as as many as 12 to 14 bank branches 33 00:05:01.980 --> 00:05:05.320 and several microcredit enterprises. 34 00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:13.060 The population, on the other hand, is largely poor, semi-rural, and migratory 35 00:05:15.910 --> 00:05:21.520 back in 1,900 ninety's Aska was designated 36 00:05:21.530 --> 00:05:32.880 as a notified area council, which simply means that it was moved from being considered a rural area to a semi-urban area. 37 00:05:33.250 --> 00:05:38.569 The year was 2,022, and Aska was still semi-urban. 38 00:05:38.870 --> 00:05:40.849 More than 3 decades. 39 00:05:41.230 --> 00:05:48.629 The people were getting impoverished every day, and migration was now a norm rather than an immediate response. 40 00:05:49.400 --> 00:05:58.230 As I is a place of contradictions. It is one of the greenest and fertile places in November agriculture. It's declining 41 00:05:58.300 --> 00:06:07.409 it has a young population which is largely unemployed. It has banks, but but most of the people are excluded from banking institutions. 42 00:06:07.450 --> 00:06:17.919 It has one of the oldest schools established at the same time when the sugar factory was established, but most children drop out after eighth grade. 43 00:06:18.290 --> 00:06:26.439 It has, as I said, many banks, but most of the people are excluded from banking institutions 44 00:06:26.990 --> 00:06:30.699 over the years. The cumulative effect and result 45 00:06:30.790 --> 00:06:40.230 is acknowledging. You know, the the thought of the people is acknowledging that Asska is a space of a trophy and decay. 46 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:45.710 and one where debt is visualized as a way to buy time. 47 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:49.379 a concept which I borrow from Wolfgang Streak. 48 00:06:49.700 --> 00:06:53.899 These are marginalized people, not 49 00:06:53.980 --> 00:06:56.509 banks or institutions. 50 00:07:00.950 --> 00:07:02.560 So the crisis 51 00:07:03.020 --> 00:07:09.530 Given that the State of Orissa, or, as it was called, is one of the poorest streets. 52 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:18.410 Both the Central and the State governments were quick to find solutions to address unemployment. literacy, and, above all, acute poverty. 53 00:07:18.520 --> 00:07:33.059 Only the issue was assuming that the neoliberal logic of debt, credit, or microfinance was innately perceptible, or applicable through imposition in the form of a state measure. 54 00:07:33.430 --> 00:07:37.140 What occurred with the push from State 55 00:07:37.260 --> 00:07:41.339 to reach what the Ilo calls reaching the farthest places. 56 00:07:41.350 --> 00:07:48.109 allowing the proliferation of institutions that facilitate a culture of debt. 57 00:07:49.600 --> 00:08:00.450 The people, on the other hand, wanted cash welfare. and accessibility to cash and welfare. and to ways in which they could earn, save. 58 00:08:00.460 --> 00:08:10.030 and live through an understanding of money as cash, but not money, as credit or debt. while the measures were formal. 59 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:19.359 What actually enabled the proliferation of debt was informal networks and values of social trust, kinship, and community. 60 00:08:20.330 --> 00:08:26.669 Now imagine a social space where everyone is poor. there are existing hierarchies in it. 61 00:08:26.750 --> 00:08:41.549 Suddenly, in the form of information capital, one comes to know that they have an access to a load of money that is theirs, but they have to repay it back slowly, gradually, and even take their time. If things go bad. 62 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:52.120 This information soon becomes a key aspect of social and cultural capital, where a community learns that they don't have to live 63 00:08:52.150 --> 00:08:55.359 with the idea of not having any access to money 64 00:08:55.770 --> 00:09:03.730 in a way that was seen to disrupt the idea that if you are not employed you don't have money 65 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:25.429 now. The understanding was, even if you don't have employment, you can still have money and figure out a way to pay back eventually. now at this point me and maybe everyone else keeps wondering that how was this possible? And there must have been some State regulation and state control. 66 00:09:25.990 --> 00:09:37.850 So there is a huge gap between State allowing, regulating and controlling of the proliferation of these microcredit, microfinance and debt, providing agencies. 67 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:44.830 And the gap is the poor people who wanted social mobility or wanted to come out of poverty were not involved. 68 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:47.889 They hear the information informally 69 00:09:48.130 --> 00:09:56.430 and often at a huge cost. By the time the State had come to regulate and control the proliferation of the debt culture. 70 00:09:56.500 --> 00:10:08.579 Several scams had occurred in which people lost assets like land, gold, and ancestral property which was used as mortgage. 71 00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:25.469 yet people saw it as a failure of state, not the failure of the idea of debt. The chance to take debt was seen as liberating, and often thought of as incentivizing active, individual responsibility. 72 00:10:27.610 --> 00:10:35.640 One of the case! I mean I'll read it out. You can also, if you treat it, if you want 73 00:10:36.020 --> 00:10:38.430 babies 74 00:10:38.610 --> 00:10:46.039 has been working in Asca for his. He! He! He! He! He was born here. 75 00:10:46.210 --> 00:10:52.540 So he inherited 50,000 Indian rupees and started a grocery shop in Oscar 76 00:10:52.970 --> 00:11:01.369 to set up the shop. He took a loan of ₹100,000 from 3 formal credit systems 77 00:11:01.830 --> 00:11:08.000 the way they, the way these credits formal credit systems work in as they just 78 00:11:08.040 --> 00:11:13.720 need an Adh card which is like a national identification card that we have right now. 79 00:11:14.170 --> 00:11:19.049 After 2 years Babbage has not been able to repay the loan. 80 00:11:19.330 --> 00:11:25.560 so he asks his wife to join a woman's cooperator, which is the self-help groups 81 00:11:25.770 --> 00:11:28.630 and borrow ₹30,000. 82 00:11:28.750 --> 00:11:32.200 He repays 3 credit systems. 83 00:11:32.410 --> 00:11:42.030 ₹10,000 each. seeing that the grocery soap is not working such it down. And now start selling saris. 84 00:11:42.430 --> 00:11:54.570 so he buys Saris from a trader on ₹60,000 credit. Now his son, who completed eighth grade, he sent him to Surat and asked him to work in the textile factory. 85 00:11:54.810 --> 00:12:01.519 The son who owns around 7,000 or 8,000 sends 3,000 for clearing this debt. 86 00:12:01.930 --> 00:12:10.460 Meanwhile the sun has taken, you know, taken an interest in gadgets and bought a phone worth ₹10,000 on credit 87 00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:17.589 since he was not able to pay from the people who borrowed the money. He has now moved to another factory. 88 00:12:17.690 --> 00:12:19.290 And this is quite common. 89 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:28.060 So what? What exactly is happening here? There are 3 things that 90 00:12:28.250 --> 00:12:32.330 occur to me from the field, that and 91 00:12:32.790 --> 00:12:41.190 debt is understood as something alien and something imposed. Now there is one understanding of debt that they 92 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:43.060 realize informally 93 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:53.240 from their community at which anthropologists Address as a promise or trust. And then there is debt as a financial economic system. 94 00:12:53.520 --> 00:12:57.790 When this is imposed. There is no synergy in between. 95 00:12:57.830 --> 00:13:00.249 so Deck is confused as 96 00:13:00.410 --> 00:13:03.470 something they already have, and they can prolong. 97 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:05.969 Debt is accessible. 98 00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:09.829 So the welfare schemes. I'll talk about it at the end. 99 00:13:10.150 --> 00:13:23.470 So, Babbage, when when I was on my field, and he wanted me to learn about, you know, different ways of employment, insurance, and everything. I informed him that there are several cards which he had. 100 00:13:23.880 --> 00:13:31.469 and when I told him if he had set up a pension scheme unemployment scheme. He was not aware of it. 101 00:13:31.890 --> 00:13:34.100 So he has made these cards. 102 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:40.839 and he's 44 years old most for most of these benefits you need to. The cut off. Age is 40 years old. 103 00:13:40.850 --> 00:13:45.189 so not only he has not realized he has even crossed the age 104 00:13:45.210 --> 00:13:48.290 for which he was eligible, right? 105 00:13:48.790 --> 00:13:55.859 and that has become an activity. So it has. It is the antithesis of doing nothing. 106 00:13:56.210 --> 00:14:07.079 if you don't have access to unemployment and you just sit around that has now entered a social space which 107 00:14:07.140 --> 00:14:10.730 is an active, you know active engagement. 108 00:14:11.020 --> 00:14:11.770 right? 109 00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:28.939 So what happened? to babes. After this cycle goes on and on. since Barbara's business keeps on failing, he blames that the fellow residents are deliberately not buying from his shop to make him shut down the business. 110 00:14:29.590 --> 00:14:35.280 He feels closer to the people who lend him money because they trusted him to take 111 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:36.749 take the loans. 112 00:14:37.260 --> 00:14:46.080 He thinks that taking debt is a skill required to start business, so there is a sense of pride, and there is a sense of 113 00:14:46.090 --> 00:15:01.640 autonomy which he feels when he takes that, or he is able to take that. Yeah, he is 45 years old. He has farmers, card labor card health card several other government cards, and has no idea what to do with it. 114 00:15:03.880 --> 00:15:07.619 and this is the current situation in which 115 00:15:07.640 --> 00:15:11.730 debt is a way of life. Babies has a debt of 116 00:15:11.920 --> 00:15:31.959 350 3 lax, 50,000 in our rupees, as of November 2,022, his wife has joined 7 Ssgs. And has borrowed 85,000, and from my recent conversation the wife is insistent on leaving the village and going to so that, and going to another city and start working 117 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:39.250 His son keeps sending him ₹3,000 per month, but he has now in got a debt of 20,000 118 00:15:39.470 --> 00:15:41.240 rupees in. 119 00:15:41.530 --> 00:15:56.600 and okay, the there are more than one lack such families. This is, of course, not something that I have collected myself, but there are total 8 lack migrants to resort to these practices. 120 00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:57.950 and 121 00:15:58.270 --> 00:16:09.800 the total population of as Guy is around 2.5 lack. And from the local threshold that's office, he says, 50% of the people were involved in most of the scams and they are in debt. 122 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:11.120 Thank you. 123 00:16:14.540 --> 00:16:22.550 That is 100,000. Right? Yeah. Okay. has an appeal of the size. 124 00:16:42.230 --> 00:17:03.020 So thanks a lot to San Diego for this presentation. we suggest that we collect questions here. and discuss the paper here, because we don't think there is much common for all the newspapers, or we don't seek a final discussion will be very helpful. So please, the floor is open for any questions. 125 00:17:08.070 --> 00:17:12.120 Also from those online detail, the mic here. 126 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.440 Thank you very much. It was really interesting. I have just 127 00:17:18.070 --> 00:17:45.030 yeah. just one question. When I'm for the microfinance group. usually you have to pay for a certain time your amount to be a member of the group, and only then you can take the the loan. Is it the same? Because then debt is not coming from outside, but you have to invest at least less as the debt is 150. 128 00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:47.369 How does it work in this case? 129 00:17:47.770 --> 00:18:08.390 So the number of credit systems have increased. They keep on jumping from one place to the other. Right? So the cash that is coming from is, of course, coming from the community. Someone gives them the money based on some kind of trust, or they have some ancestral property that they keep on selling. 130 00:18:09.010 --> 00:18:11.500 So the constant 131 00:18:11.550 --> 00:18:13.770 the constant flow of cash 132 00:18:13.970 --> 00:18:20.599 that they need to repay. Some part of it is either coming from the community or they send their children back home. 133 00:18:21.470 --> 00:18:26.560 So this is this is the pattern that has sort of 134 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:31.370 just to verify. So you can join the cooperative. 135 00:18:31.500 --> 00:18:36.300 And immediately you can ask for a load. Yeah, okay. 136 00:18:36.340 --> 00:18:40.029 that's a little bit of confusing the whole system. 137 00:18:42.370 --> 00:18:47.159 If you stand up here because I'm on my home, you can see you. 138 00:18:48.460 --> 00:18:50.390 Are there more questions? 139 00:18:58.060 --> 00:19:00.639 Yes, so so I hope. And 140 00:19:01.060 --> 00:19:03.249 you hear me also on the screen. 141 00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:07.160 you well following on on this. That means that 142 00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:15.330 both the cooperatives and everything only work with kind of fixed assets in the background. So 143 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:21.569 in principle, you have to think you could kind of work out how long it takes to 144 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:25.590 until everybody goes bankrupt? Right? Yeah. 145 00:19:26.620 --> 00:19:29.440 And has anybody done that there? 146 00:19:29.540 --> 00:19:44.839 Yeah. So they just leave the place. It's like capital flight. They just jump and leave the place. Okay, so it's kind of moving out of the place so that nobody knows you. And yeah, yeah, and generally, it's a place in Western India that's like 147 00:19:45.730 --> 00:20:11.959 around 1,600 miles across, which is an ethnic enclave they have. This is the same community works as a labor force. So it has been going bankrupt. And that's why I mentioned that, you know, over like last 200 years it has been decaying. There's no, there's no industrialization. The shops keep on coming, and you know, breaking down like someone runs a shop for 2 months. 148 00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:17.120 then shut it down. If they're lucky they run it for like 6 or 7 months. 149 00:20:17.950 --> 00:20:26.480 Okay, that this was just a follow up on your question. But my basic question is, you said you were there? You brought us one case study. 150 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:45.560 Do you have more case studies. How exactly did you work? Yeah. So So babesh is. There were many stories similar to babes in What what differs is the amount of loans, the pattern remains the same. 151 00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:55.800 So other case that is involved in which. So the sun buying phone is a very common and something that I have not anticipated. So if there are a family of 152 00:20:55.850 --> 00:21:05.499 if they are a family, at least right, and the son they don't encourage educating their children. They want their children to walk right. 153 00:21:05.530 --> 00:21:11.410 And this, I see comes from the. It comes from the notion that 154 00:21:11.550 --> 00:21:21.719 they have this innate notion that, you know they have started, or they have started to think that that is something they have to be in to stay up, float in the society 155 00:21:21.970 --> 00:21:39.760 like They. They know the existing crisis of people who don't have debt. So people who don't have debt are likely to have broken houses, you know, dilapidated buildings, and they are seen in in terms of social status. Also they are seen as 156 00:21:39.790 --> 00:21:51.210 industrious, and not have the capacity to take on debt. So taking on that is seen as a very proactive thing. 157 00:21:51.260 --> 00:21:59.880 Now, another thing that even I thought on the how is this continuing? Someone must know that this is 158 00:21:59.980 --> 00:22:11.430 You know, this keeps happening, and it has to. As you said, the community goes bankrupt. Right? So that's what's happening. The the people are engaging in this and then moving our way to school it. 159 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.030 What has happened over the years is this has decreased 160 00:22:15.290 --> 00:22:17.170 the number of 161 00:22:17.270 --> 00:22:21.820 credit offering institutions have decreased. 162 00:22:21.840 --> 00:22:28.919 but what has not? What has stayed, or what has been socialized into their lives is the idea of 163 00:22:28.970 --> 00:22:30.980 debt as something that is 164 00:22:31.260 --> 00:22:49.690 you know, not like a loan or something. They have to be paid back immediately, or something that is debilitating, but that is something that is supporting that as something that increases their social status, and this is affecting the whole region because no one wants to bring in capital right now. 165 00:22:49.800 --> 00:22:59.120 So the State is not interested in starting the industry that there is a textile factory over there which the State is not interested in. you know, doing anything about it. 166 00:22:59.260 --> 00:23:08.780 the farmers who supply Sugar Crane to the sugar factory. They are not even providing the raw material to the factory, knowing that this is what is happening 167 00:23:09.170 --> 00:23:13.610 so only the people who live there and cannot move out. 168 00:23:13.910 --> 00:23:25.710 Are you? you know. likely to do this, and when they do this. the reason is always, you know, they don't want to go to Surat and work in the factories. 169 00:23:26.030 --> 00:23:32.229 But this is again a paradox, because once they do this. That's when they have to go to Soura and work in the factory. 170 00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:34.250 Yeah. 171 00:23:34.780 --> 00:23:35.730 this, Jim. 172 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.909 I'm I'm Jimmy Addition. I from South Africa. 173 00:23:44.310 --> 00:23:48.780 Pardon my, I'm very suspicious about one case. Studies. 174 00:23:49.730 --> 00:23:50.410 Okay. 175 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:53.850 there. 176 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.899 There is a danger in terms of what we call it cherry picking. 177 00:24:00.650 --> 00:24:03.350 That's neither here. No, there. 178 00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:06.419 But it's it's also important 179 00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:12.100 to have an idea of the loon-making environment. 180 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:19.469 Okay? how much are we charged in terms of interest? 181 00:24:20.650 --> 00:24:24.900 and so on. Hello! 182 00:24:25.310 --> 00:24:28.960 Because at the moment we 183 00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:30.560 are we people. Now. 184 00:24:30.760 --> 00:24:36.859 this is what you describe as an environment of intense policy. 185 00:24:38.060 --> 00:24:40.879 But the picture we get is about 186 00:24:42.600 --> 00:24:45.699 out of my irresponsible individuals 187 00:24:46.430 --> 00:24:50.019 getting into debts, even when they're not, they should get 188 00:24:50.230 --> 00:24:50.920 today. 189 00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:53.230 But what about those making the days? 190 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:57.710 What about those making the loads? How much are they charging images? 191 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:03.130 yeah. So I have an answer for this. So 192 00:25:04.520 --> 00:25:14.379 the answer is, you know, maybe I mean, of course, this is because of my disciplinary tail training. I would not call them a responsible rather. 193 00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:22.149 The idea that how their understanding of debt intersects with the neoliberal idea of debt. 194 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:32.970 that as something that exists in the terminology and books of finance, and that are something in the community. both of these are not working 195 00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:34.930 right. So 196 00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:47.449 when we say that there is responsible, we are thinking, you know, as you post the question, we are thinking from the people who give loans that this person should not take loans because he cannot pay it back. 197 00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:50.400 My explanation is that 198 00:25:51.190 --> 00:25:58.869 they have. You know, the they were not microcredit was not. you know not there in that village earlier 199 00:25:59.290 --> 00:26:04.380 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: there was an active state proposition that these things should happen. 200 00:26:04.670 --> 00:26:07.009 I think this happened after 201 00:26:07.040 --> 00:26:09.969 the success of Grameen Bank in Bangladesh. 202 00:26:10.360 --> 00:26:11.949 that. 203 00:26:12.430 --> 00:26:33.670 That's us. Things were probably corrected. Your microphone is only can hear the noises you make. Thanks. So yeah, I don't have a proper understanding of loan providing and loan making simply because that is not my area of interest. I'm rather looking at how people are making sense of 204 00:26:34.670 --> 00:26:44.130 the debt that they have incurred, and how it seeps into their way of life. And yeah, that is, that would. I would agree that that may be a limitation. 205 00:26:44.510 --> 00:26:46.990 Yeah. 206 00:26:47.130 --> 00:26:49.080 absolutely my 207 00:26:49.710 --> 00:26:51.769 sorry. There are people on there. 208 00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:56.780 I will encourage you 209 00:26:57.230 --> 00:26:57.940 to. 210 00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:00.869 because we know they are very predatory. 211 00:27:01.130 --> 00:27:01.930 Right? 212 00:27:02.060 --> 00:27:05.760 You know normally, don't you don't want to be sharks, you know. 213 00:27:06.020 --> 00:27:15.079 and what you hear is, you know how you know people are almost like that. 214 00:27:15.570 --> 00:27:21.219 But you have situations. I mean, I'm given the example of South Africa, where people like China 215 00:27:21.470 --> 00:27:24.319 universally 250% a month. 216 00:27:27.250 --> 00:27:34.359 Ok? So the loan making itself becomes a business 217 00:27:34.520 --> 00:27:36.380 for chronic indebtedness. 218 00:27:37.979 --> 00:27:44.240 right? That, you know, so that people people take lo and and and 219 00:27:44.550 --> 00:27:47.140 so for this particular study 220 00:27:47.410 --> 00:27:55.560 to get it. It's important to get it. I mean, I don't know me about the Grammy bank, and this is what very literally said. 221 00:27:55.939 --> 00:27:59.670 this is about Hamilton is changing interest rates 222 00:27:59.979 --> 00:28:02.189 for you. 223 00:28:02.899 --> 00:28:09.550 Yeah. thank you. I mean, I totally appreciate your comments and definitely incorporate this in my 224 00:28:09.930 --> 00:28:22.940 I think we have time for a last question. Then we have now 2 papers that are going to be presented online, and then the pre-recorded paper. But one last question, please go ahead. 225 00:28:26.040 --> 00:28:28.149 Yeah. It was a nice presentation 226 00:28:28.260 --> 00:28:39.979 question regarding migration from one State to another. State. Right? 1,600 mice part. They have to migrate to, just to await the loans they have taken. 227 00:28:40.300 --> 00:28:51.690 So do you connect this thing with the actual capital or social capital or ethnicity? We also have the ethnic group there in Sura, which are going to be about 228 00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:52.850 below. 229 00:28:57.490 --> 00:28:59.389 So how? 230 00:29:00.560 --> 00:29:02.900 So 231 00:29:03.410 --> 00:29:14.859 what has happened is, I mean, So the larger thesis that I'm looking at is, of course, labour migration. So what has happened is the second generation of migrants to Surat 232 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:21.019 is the one that's actually caught up in this right? So 233 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:37.690 the newer generation has sort of been. As I said, they have been socialized, and when I say that as a way of life. It, of course, become a part of their culture, and when they migrate from one city to the other, they are sort of seen as people who will incur debts 234 00:29:37.800 --> 00:29:48.560 right, and they are seen as people who are Inca decks who will borrow money, who will not repay money. and it's known they keep jumping from one factory to the other. Right? 235 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:50.230 So 236 00:29:50.270 --> 00:29:59.199 it becomes. And the way social capital is used here is for borrowing right? But 237 00:29:59.630 --> 00:30:05.109 when they use can shape a community for borrowing money, and since this practice has become known 238 00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:17.030 as I said, the number of institutions started declining after the scam was caught. But it has definitely become a cultural part of the cultural capital 239 00:30:17.380 --> 00:30:27.670 that the next generation has, so that so the children who are born in. Now they have started setting up these loan providing institutions. 240 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:36.140 So they work in the factory, and they themselves provide loans while they are themselves in debt. So 241 00:30:36.550 --> 00:30:47.190 so I mean, that was the reason I I like the idea of Wolfgang streaks buying time struck me a lot, but they are in crisis. But this is how they think they will be afloat. 242 00:30:49.750 --> 00:30:55.039 So thank you very much, Sandy P. For your presentation and your answers, and it thanks for your question. 243 00:30:55.060 --> 00:30:56.480 Thank you. 244 00:30:59.910 --> 00:31:17.629 I move over to this place because we have our next presentation that is going to be held online. Marina, Joseph and Rochni. No, Gehali. I don't know who is talking of out of you, and if you could share your slides if you have some. 245 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:31.300 Roshni Nuggehalli: Yeah, thank you. I'm Rosie from you, and my colleague Marina also is a quarter I'll be presenting, and then both of us can take the questions when we start. 246 00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:32.950 Thank you. Go ahead. 247 00:31:35.110 --> 00:31:36.310 Roshni Nuggehalli: yeah. 248 00:31:37.340 --> 00:32:03.490 Roshni Nuggehalli: So just to little bit. Give a background. We are both working in an organization called use for unity and voluntary action based in India. We are a practitioner, and it's about a 40 year old organization. Today we will be speaking about an an effort to improve social protection with a very strong partnership between civil society and the State. in in Western India. 249 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:07.909 Roshni Nuggehalli: very close to the earlier presentation in terms of location. 250 00:32:11.310 --> 00:32:17.660 Roshni Nuggehalli: just a brief sort of a quick run through on how the social protection will you exist in India? 251 00:32:17.870 --> 00:32:28.319 Roshni Nuggehalli: on paper and in in spirit it is right space, and the the focus is, of course, redistributed social protection. However, it is a very targeted system. It is not universal. 252 00:32:28.450 --> 00:32:30.570 Roshni Nuggehalli: And it's always been that way 253 00:32:30.590 --> 00:32:35.529 Roshni Nuggehalli: and off late over the last post, the liberalization era. 254 00:32:35.570 --> 00:32:58.360 Roshni Nuggehalli: Huge increasing budgetary cuts for all social protection schemes. That's also an important context for us to understand. having said that the system we have currently targets, quite wide range of aspects of security, health care, livelihood, education, social security, and so on. And that way it's quite expensive. I would not say it's comprehensive, but it is quite expensive. 255 00:32:58.430 --> 00:33:06.580 Roshni Nuggehalli: and the orientation the you know, the rationale has been really reduced households vulnerability by reducing their exposure to risk 256 00:33:06.600 --> 00:33:20.510 Roshni Nuggehalli: building their capacity to mitigate the impact of shocks and risks. And also we are this reducing poverty and inequality, particularly among marginalized communities. India is quite an unequal country, socially and economically, of course. 257 00:33:20.540 --> 00:33:33.299 Roshni Nuggehalli: and the marginalized by cast and region and religion and gender as well. And really the idea is to reduce inequality amongst the different communities. 258 00:33:33.500 --> 00:33:50.609 Roshni Nuggehalli: we borrow from And once you really speak about very close interplay between poverty, vulnerability, and social protection. we see that. you know, vulnerabilities obviously do cause poverty. This is something that's you know. 259 00:33:50.610 --> 00:34:09.450 Roshni Nuggehalli: well understood. And in sudden shocks. India has a large informal sector workforce, many of whom are day wage laborers. So if I work today, I get paid, and any minor shocks in my income immediately pushes me into a vulnerability cycle. So that is a very deep into linkage that we see 260 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:16.319 Roshni Nuggehalli: and the vulnerabilities that we notice are temporal, of course, in terms of you know throughout the year whether I'm a migrant 261 00:34:16.370 --> 00:34:39.790 Roshni Nuggehalli: similar to what the earlier presentation spoke about when you know, I'm able to access resources but also very structural. So if I am a a dalit, or, which is a, you know, part of the marginalized cast or a marginalized minority religion. Then, definitely my vulnerability comes from a structural backdrop as well and not just you know my hard work or my ability to 262 00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:49.899 Roshni Nuggehalli: to face reality. So I think, vulnerability needs to be understood in a very layered way, and in this sort of backdrop social protection can 263 00:34:50.080 --> 00:35:13.450 Roshni Nuggehalli: both to reduce vulnerabilities. and you know, also, that's improve the poverty situation, but we also see that the absence of social protection in non poor households can also lead to vulnerability. This is something that we are lately seeing particularly Post Covid, when there's a lot of the new poor that not only in India, but as a merging around different countries in the world as well. So 264 00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:19.300 Roshni Nuggehalli: it's really giving some criticism to the targeted approach of social protection, whereas 265 00:35:19.430 --> 00:35:30.630 Roshni Nuggehalli: we are seeing that, you know, traditionally non-volatile households and our traditional understanding are also facing crises, because the lack of social protection that they have. 266 00:35:30.810 --> 00:35:52.380 Roshni Nuggehalli: specifically, considering the system of social protection, you come down to how this is implemented. Operationalized in the country. There are quite a few gaps We can't spend time going into the detail of the system, but just maybe through the caps we understand what it is. Design is a huge area of where we find certain gaps. It's quite disconnected. There's no single 267 00:35:52.380 --> 00:36:20.730 Roshni Nuggehalli: ministry or a department, or an agency that supports social protection. And it's not really life cycle based, although there are no schemes across different aspects of life cycle. It's not coherent and comprehensive in that service. Why, I said, it's not comprehensive, although it might be expensive, and Covid has really taught us that it's not at all shocked responsive because the social protection system failed quite a bit during The the pandemic, and particularly the lockdowns coverage, is also a very big issue in there as a large country. 268 00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:38.439 Roshni Nuggehalli: and you know, not just geography, but also in terms of access to resources capacity. So coverage is a huge issue and accessibility. Physical accessibility is a big challenge in a gap, but also social accessibility. Power plays a big role. So if I belong to a particular class in a community I am more likely 269 00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:54.509 Roshni Nuggehalli: who get have the power to claim certain schemes and benefits meant for me, whereas if I'm not from that. I don't have that. So it's important to understand accessibility, not only as a physical but also as a social dependent on my identity. Delivery systems are very underfunded and 270 00:36:54.510 --> 00:37:19.780 Roshni Nuggehalli: very few human resources, and that's a huge gap. And digitization does not take away the fact the need for human resources. And also there's a sort of a communication gap. There's very less awareness between I mean for people to understand that so many benefits exist in the social protection system that I can claim, and that sort of, if you want to call it as a demand and supply. There's quite a big gap in that system, and it's 271 00:37:19.900 --> 00:37:46.409 Roshni Nuggehalli: The work I speak we'll speak about today is in the state of Maharashtra, which is the second largest state in terms of population highest Gdp. Mumbai, which I'm sure you all know of the financial centers located here, but at the same time high inequalities. The largest number of deaths by form of suicide also happen in Maharashtra, and there is no integrated cohesive social protection governance mechanisms, and these fault lines will really expose very strongly during the Covid pandemic and the lockdowns 272 00:37:46.410 --> 00:38:01.510 Roshni Nuggehalli: and in 2,020 India did announce a huge, you know, social protection package, including direct cash transfers, and you know, deferring payments, and Maharashtra, the State also announced quite a few So that's also important, and the work that we have undertaken is post 273 00:38:01.510 --> 00:38:30.559 Roshni Nuggehalli: the pandemic and the lockdowns to really take benefit from some of these packages also that were announced. during that time the objectives of the partnership that our organization has been carrying out is really to start creating a model of a collaboration between the state and the civil society that's us in the community, and we are piloting this model of social protection facilitation centers to really, you know what we call in India the last mile access. Really, I'm sure the vulnerable groups have that access 274 00:38:30.860 --> 00:38:37.669 Roshni Nuggehalli: also, looking at generating evidence from the ground, to promote advocacy, to improve design, and to really move beyond the gaps that we see 275 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:56.150 Roshni Nuggehalli: So the social protection presentation center, the model itself. There's a center. And it really looks at facilitation that is responsive to the needs of a household. So we are looking at about 30 different schemes that the government offers, and really looking at how that can be taken door to door with, you know, a human resource team as well. 276 00:38:56.150 --> 00:39:03.179 Roshni Nuggehalli: And while it's a lot of civil society you know, work that is happening. The footwork groundwork. 277 00:39:03.180 --> 00:39:26.920 Roshni Nuggehalli: looking at partnerships with various levels of government to ensure that it doesn't become something that an Ngo comes in and does. And then, you know, maybe does when we have money to do it, and then steps away, but really start looking at partnerships, the government to build that ownership, that this sort of facilitation. It's not enough to just announce a scheme. It actually has to be taken to the people's full steps. And we're doing this in 3 diverse terms. In context, a rural and urban and a very tribal 278 00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:42.599 Roshni Nuggehalli: focused area. just very quickly. Some of the strategies. There been many challenges in doing this work, and some of the strategies we've used to really overcome these challenges, and the gaps is focusing a lot on awareness of the schemes which is very, very low in the country. 279 00:39:42.610 --> 00:40:07.629 Roshni Nuggehalli: you know, with language and accessibility. So that's been a big trust of our work, also eligibility because of migration, because of a huge number of documents that a poor person needs to produce to, you know, deem myself eligible, despite the fact that we do have this new on her card, which is earlier presented, also mentioned, eligibility. Am I eligible? Is not not at all a simple process, and really a lot of the time gets stuck in 280 00:40:07.670 --> 00:40:30.570 Roshni Nuggehalli: bringing up the documentation, creating the documentation. So a lot of time was spent on that, as well as this facilitation of actually going and applying, not. Everything is done online. A lot of paperwork happens, and it has to happen at the local government level, and then that has to be pushed up to the State at the department level, so really facilitating that. And it's not enough to get the application at the government's doorstep. There's a lot of work to 281 00:40:30.570 --> 00:40:38.000 Roshni Nuggehalli: go and keep knocking on their door, doing that lobbying. To ensure that the approval of that scheme comes. All this document is missing. The signature is wrong. 282 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:55.499 Roshni Nuggehalli: So it's quite an intense process, and we've done. There are several different strategies that we use to overcome all of these levels of work and in terms of the actual partnership, which I think is important piece for us to start embedding this sort of a work right now. Maybe civil society is leading it. But how do we find 283 00:40:55.610 --> 00:41:23.630 Roshni Nuggehalli: a ways to embed it within the government system? Because that's the only way that it can be sustainable. So at the community level. We are creating what we are calling barefoot social protection champions or in Hindi. It's version of those we're looking at local government functioning from maybe teachers or health workers to start also integrating social protection work in their day to day work and also looking at decentralization of presentation. Can we look at? at every village, or at every ward in in with every 284 00:41:23.630 --> 00:41:43.139 Roshni Nuggehalli: But the what in the city can we start looking at facilitation processes happening. So everybody doesn't have to go to a central location. So that's some 1 one sort of you know, an approach we have used at the local government, also ensuring that specific offices are, you know, selected to support us in this work and give 285 00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:59.589 Roshni Nuggehalli: give that feedback and have a one stop center. What often happens in in in, in the State is you have to go to 5 different government offices to just claim one benefit, and that's not really helpful at all. So can we sort of converge that? And at the State Government really looking at giving, we 286 00:41:59.590 --> 00:42:19.819 Roshni Nuggehalli: come up with quite a bit of evidence, and put in policy recommendations to improve the design and the accessibility and the delivery of schemes. There's also a consortium at the State level. that we are pushing for some of these demands about 150,000 Usd. Has been already delivered in terms of actual benefits to people over the last one and a half years in this work. 287 00:42:19.820 --> 00:42:49.160 Roshni Nuggehalli: And you can see some of this is A. It's just an event organized by the Government, where, actually, the civil society groups and people were brought together to do the facilitation of the social protection schemes and in terms of learning. I think we close with 2 sort of key areas of learning which we've had over the last 18 months or so is several invisible groups keep getting left out, you know, alongside the overall gaps, the internal migrants like you know, coming from rural area to the city. 288 00:42:49.160 --> 00:43:01.279 Roshni Nuggehalli: and all the measures that we do have for them a very short term, you know. Very immediate. The first 2, 3 months of what? When you come you get some benefits, but we need long term measures until their second day until they can build that social capital 289 00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:20.089 Roshni Nuggehalli: and also looking at non traditional sectors. The gig economy is becoming a big deal in India right now, and none of this has any real legislation or laws or policies to support gig economy workers, many of whom are young. So that's an important sort of a gap that we do find. Also women and gender minorities are 290 00:43:20.350 --> 00:43:28.550 Roshni Nuggehalli: decreasing in the visible workforce. Not? That's both the formal and the inform, and many of them are working from home, any of them working in 291 00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:55.269 Roshni Nuggehalli: you know the black economy, and we need to move towards gender transformation measures. So it's not again just about a cash transfer, but also looking at sexual reproductive health looking at violence. And how does social protection include that as part of the life cycle analysis and young people, India has, you know, more than half our populations below the age of 25, and these young people are dropping out of formal systems of both education and work. They quickly 292 00:43:55.270 --> 00:44:06.989 Roshni Nuggehalli: maybe after the tenth grade they drop out. Well, that's and especially girls. I think there's about 10 million girls who are at risk of dropping out of school post pandemic. And really, but with these groups. Again, we need to focus 293 00:44:07.110 --> 00:44:15.310 Roshni Nuggehalli: a social protection should focus beyond just education and employment, really looking at their own needs, whether it's health needs mental health and 294 00:44:15.700 --> 00:44:29.990 Roshni Nuggehalli: incorporating that into the into the system that we have. And these groups are invisible and not spoken about in the social protection conversation, either at the State level, or even amongst civil society. And hopefully, through a partnership like this, we can keep pushing this forward. 295 00:44:30.020 --> 00:44:48.530 Roshni Nuggehalli: Finally, another point I do want to make is the data and technology. And I think that's quite relevant beyond the Indian context as well, we do. we look at data as a double export. It's absolutely needed. If we don't have data on the numbers of people who are vulnerable and how they're vulnerable and where they're located. 296 00:44:48.610 --> 00:44:49.630 Roshni Nuggehalli: it's needed. 297 00:44:49.690 --> 00:45:11.700 Roshni Nuggehalli: But the way the current disposition is, there's a lot of risk of profiling and discrimination based on that profiling, whether you' from a particular cost to the community. And this is something that we are not completely comfortable with. And we feel that a response to that would be really bottom-up data like groups like the work that we have done, working with local organizations, local communities to generate 298 00:45:11.700 --> 00:45:26.610 Roshni Nuggehalli: vulnerability assessments and lists that come from the bottom up. I think we need to find ways to see the bottom of data, because what's happening right now is more in the sense of profiling and discrimination. So we do need data, but we have to be very careful about it. And the ethics that on that have to be very sharp. 299 00:45:26.610 --> 00:45:44.470 Roshni Nuggehalli: Similarly, technology, I think digitalization, you know India is on, you know, on that at the global scale it's absolutely needed as an enabler. We cannot keep having. You can see the paper. And then that's happening, which is, you know, still 70 to 80% of the work that happens in social protection and in other aspects. So we do need it. 300 00:45:44.470 --> 00:46:05.279 Roshni Nuggehalli: but I think the risk we see when it becomes as a driver of the process and a centralizing force which again leads to surveillance, so it almost becomes like everything that's happening to me. I have to register. I have to have an app. I have registered tech when I'm falling sick, not falling sick, and there's no privacy laws around that there are no strong 301 00:46:05.410 --> 00:46:12.790 Roshni Nuggehalli: There's a strong legislation. There's no grievance to dresses around that that can be sold to any private party. So I think 302 00:46:12.950 --> 00:46:33.209 Roshni Nuggehalli: again, a double edged, for we need technology as a last mile access But we also need to keep the traditional methods. Not every village is digitally enabled. not every you know, person can do digital. So. We do need the traditional methods. But when we do adopt technology, it has to be within again an ethical and very 303 00:46:33.210 --> 00:46:53.700 Roshni Nuggehalli: ethical and a principles based sort of work. So this was just, you know, very broad sharing of both the need for this kind of work in the country, as well as how we've been able to do this with the partnership of the government and some of the ways that we think of going ahead in this space. 304 00:46:54.540 --> 00:46:55.270 Roshni Nuggehalli: Thank you. 305 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:22.610 Thank you very much, Rosemary, for this insight. the floor is open for questions. Please come here to this microphone, because, like that the people online can even see you when you pose your questions. 306 00:47:22.970 --> 00:47:25.520 Who would like to break the eyes? 307 00:47:35.140 --> 00:47:40.600 thanks, Rosen, as like the slide on learning like invisible. 308 00:47:40.630 --> 00:47:45.869 The slide on it highlighting the indivisibles was really fascinating. And 309 00:47:46.150 --> 00:48:02.159 I'm quite interested that internal migrants popped up, and I wanted to know your thoughts regarding how do you mitigate that? These migrants keep on moving? And then there are barefoot campaigns like how to incorporate that when the migrants are just moving around. 310 00:48:02.330 --> 00:48:08.610 And because, as you pointed out, that documentation is a very tough process, right? 311 00:48:08.700 --> 00:48:14.379 So yeah, your thoughts on that. And yeah, it's from field experiences. Yeah, thank you. 312 00:48:14.810 --> 00:48:19.670 Roshni Nuggehalli: Yeah, thank you for the question. And I'll maybe take it in marine. I can add 313 00:48:20.350 --> 00:48:30.010 Roshni Nuggehalli: what we feel in terms of migration. There are some migrants who are seasonal where they keep moving around throughout the year, and there are some who are more per minute in the sense of maybe they 314 00:48:30.080 --> 00:48:56.160 Roshni Nuggehalli: they go and stay for the entire year in, in a, in a, in a city context. And I think for us. What we feel is important is the link between the source and the destination. So most of the migration is happening from rural areas to cities. And there's no conversation. It's very self driven and independent, you know, based on my social capital. There's no conversation between the governments of these 2 places which was what really was exposed during the Covid pandemic. 315 00:48:56.160 --> 00:49:12.459 Roshni Nuggehalli: Nobody knew how many migrants from, you know. One State had come to the city of Mom Mom Bombay. So I think, that conversation between the source and the destination is very important, and that's something that is quite not quite a bit. But there is some advocacy happening. 316 00:49:12.460 --> 00:49:29.470 Roshni Nuggehalli: Civil society groups are trying to present to models of how this can be done, how a rural district administration, where majority of people shift to Bombay can start talking to the Corporation of Bombay to see You know whether you what are the numbers which are going in? What are the services that are being delivered. 317 00:49:29.640 --> 00:49:37.390 Roshni Nuggehalli: It's it's a large ask, and it's not going to come up easily. But I think that's the only way that we can do some of this tracking. 318 00:49:37.440 --> 00:50:05.510 Roshni Nuggehalli: And then, recently, post covid, the government is also introduced something called an East run, which is a registration system for in Homer sector workers, many of whom are migrants. So that's an added registration in some ways, and it's another id card that you carry. But at least, the hope is that at some point this can become an important tool for accessing social protection which was not there. For instance, prior to the pandemic, there was no way to track. How many people had come, how many people are working in the informal sector? 319 00:50:05.730 --> 00:50:09.019 Roshni Nuggehalli: So maybe these 2 ways you want to add anything. 320 00:50:10.830 --> 00:50:17.770 Marina Joseph: 1 point, I want to add is right. Now we look at the existing social protection schemes. 321 00:50:17.790 --> 00:50:23.700 Marina Joseph: It's only the food security team that is still been made portable for migrant workers 322 00:50:23.730 --> 00:50:33.670 Marina Joseph: but going ahead. if that like, Rosie mentioned. we do have these optional routes which are basically trained 323 00:50:33.670 --> 00:50:58.559 Marina Joseph: local community volunteers who, at the who are then able to learn about what social protection is, how do you access it at the source level, they're able to understand what are the forms of governance and the levels of governance through which social protection can be access. So one option is that these Yorkshire or trainers are then able to help migrant workers at the source level 324 00:50:58.660 --> 00:51:23.969 Marina Joseph: access social production, and the other is one of the social protection facilities impact 2 of the social protection facilitation centers are located in source regions, so to also ensure that while they are at the source, they have the coverage of whatever social production is possible, and at the destination level we are able to, you know, provide some sort of a linkage, even if it is via our telephone 325 00:51:23.970 --> 00:51:28.949 Marina Joseph: to migrant workers traveling as to what they may be eligible for at the city level. 326 00:51:32.750 --> 00:51:56.580 Thank you. May I maybe add a question to that I mean, non-migrants might still have problems with documentation, lack of birth certificate like of Id cards. How big of a problem is that that would be my first question, and the second one is is a stigma, or the shame of of getting this kind of money? 327 00:51:56.580 --> 00:52:04.900 Is that a problem as well? Are people not up taking certain instruments because they are ashamed of doing so. 328 00:52:09.140 --> 00:52:19.340 Marina Joseph: so I mean, we have not come across too many cases of people having associating shame with, Taking government welfare, I think 329 00:52:19.340 --> 00:52:42.880 Marina Joseph: that is we. It's not. I think it's not yet got there in India to a large extent, and people are still very dependent on it. And your first question regarding even non migrants not having access to either basic identity documents. That's true. It's even more true for women who are very less likely to have birth certificates or voting voting cards, etc. 330 00:52:43.550 --> 00:53:09.070 Marina Joseph: And so, in fact, one of the first steps of that impact on on the slide. There was one one side that mentioned determining eligibility, and then ensuring that we first at the first stage make sure that they get those basic documents. So while our aim is to enable access to social protection, we actually do spend a lot of time, making sure that they get those basic documents in place before they access social protection. 331 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:13.510 Thank you. Other questions. 332 00:53:18.770 --> 00:53:26.529 Yes, I have one. You said, if I understood right. You are an Ngo 333 00:53:26.590 --> 00:53:32.039 who is trying to connect between civil society and the State. Is that right? 334 00:53:32.530 --> 00:53:53.199 And you are training volunteers in civil society on is on state issues, and how to implement them, or how to inform the people how to involve the State directly. I mean, you brought that one example, where, instead of going to 5 different locations 335 00:53:53.270 --> 00:54:04.730 in a community, you go to one location. That's one example that you brought, how you, how you manage to talk with the State to make it easier. 336 00:54:04.990 --> 00:54:08.619 But how else do you do that? That's the first question, how do you 337 00:54:09.020 --> 00:54:17.569 kind of change state institutions so that they work better. And the second thing is, you are training volunteers. 338 00:54:17.650 --> 00:54:27.870 and my experience in other countries was that if an Ngo trains volunteers they might work till they get sufficient 339 00:54:28.240 --> 00:54:44.899 knowledge on how the thing works, and then they disappear into paid work elsewhere. So you're kind of training people, and they for for a a common issue, for for citizen, 340 00:54:44.970 --> 00:54:46.040 For for this 341 00:54:46.240 --> 00:54:54.510 worked between State and the and the citizens, but they leave as volunteers, but they leave individually 342 00:54:54.820 --> 00:55:03.390 kind of for their own good, and earn money with this training that they have received. So the 2 things, how do you change these state institutions? 343 00:55:03.470 --> 00:55:11.220 and the second would be, how do you? How do you have it? Or do you deal with this jumping off for this? 344 00:55:11.950 --> 00:55:12.920 yeah 345 00:55:13.310 --> 00:55:15.819 of the people that you've trained. 346 00:55:16.250 --> 00:55:17.070 Thank you. 347 00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:31.550 Roshni Nuggehalli: Thank you. I think very, very nice questions. And just to clarify, we are an Ngo. Of course, we also consider ourselves to be part of civil society, and the this work is done in partnership with the community, which is 348 00:55:31.650 --> 00:55:36.239 Roshni Nuggehalli: members of both urban, rural and tribal communities as well as the State 349 00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:41.330 Roshni Nuggehalli: and in terms of the shifting the State. I think 350 00:55:41.630 --> 00:55:44.820 Roshni Nuggehalli: we have been quite pleasantly surprised 351 00:55:44.880 --> 00:56:09.489 Roshni Nuggehalli: because State departments also have targets that they are not able to meet because people on the ground don't have awareness. They don't. You know. They can't get the documentation like birth certificates. So their targets are unmet. So it's somewhat in their interest to go along with us because we are enabling a lot of that. We're helping to facilitate that. So we have seen that to be quite them to be quite forthcoming in this case. 352 00:56:09.490 --> 00:56:16.409 Roshni Nuggehalli: and this is all budgets which, if don't get spent, they just get labs. So I think that has been helpful. And some of the. 353 00:56:16.410 --> 00:56:26.020 Roshni Nuggehalli: you know, impacts. You want to see. The outcomes has been in one location in in the city location. The the collector said that we could put 354 00:56:26.120 --> 00:56:51.490 Roshni Nuggehalli: We all we can have a one-stop center in my office, so that for us is a huge case of ownership. Where, then? No longer as an Ngo, we have to pay for, you know, room and space, and all of that in another location They actually came up and said that this officer they appointed one office as a normal office and said, this person will be your go to person. So you don't have to go to 5 different offices, 6 different offices, any issue with any of these schemes. You come to them. 355 00:56:51.490 --> 00:57:02.619 Roshni Nuggehalli: and it's a district level offices. So he has some authority to adjudicate the matters that you'll see. So we are seeing those ships These are again in the first one and a half months or so. 356 00:57:02.620 --> 00:57:30.240 Roshni Nuggehalli: but I think for us to be able to make bigger ships. We do have to collectivize much more. It's not just enough. If it's, you know Ngo or some of us putting forward policy recommendations, which is why that's part of the work that we didn't speak about today. There's actually a consortium that we're working on building at the state level which has representation in a few groups of civil society, and the idea is to make it a much more bigger advocacy push. We don't have universal social protection. We don't have a single 357 00:57:30.240 --> 00:57:53.029 Roshni Nuggehalli: entry point or an exit point for these teams. So I think that's the larger advocacy that we want to do, and that won't happen really with just, you know, a few of us doing small interventions, but I think these interventions are important to show a positive example that hey, it's possible, and we can do it together, and you know, slowly you can do it on your own as well. So I think there's a little bit of that hand holding Naj. 358 00:57:53.030 --> 00:58:03.750 Roshni Nuggehalli: At the same time, at the advocacy level, we can be a little more aspirational and a little more activist in pushing for a larger ship. So that's sort of the 2 wrong process. 359 00:58:03.750 --> 00:58:20.240 Roshni Nuggehalli: And in terms of the community, I think what you're saying very astute. That happens quite a bit where you do train different members. And you know, maybe they use it. Maybe they don't do that. They drop off so definitely, there's that drop off percentage. Some of the things that we try to do is 360 00:58:20.690 --> 00:58:49.489 Roshni Nuggehalli: We train folks who are already working in different government entities, like health workers, or I mean, I mean a crash. Workers. They are already paid with a certain they already have that thing and trying to overlay the social protection. So if I run. You know, a children's crash. There are mothers and babies who are coming to me, and if I have knowledge about these 5 social protection schemes that are eligible for mothers and babies, then I can automatically do that. Then in there it becomes like an added value. Add that I provide 361 00:58:49.490 --> 00:59:03.110 Roshni Nuggehalli: and it. It's not so difficult. I don't have to go out and seek. So that's one sort of a strategy similar for health workers similar for workers at the village level for official dram, I mean village officials at the the local level. 362 00:59:03.110 --> 00:59:28.729 Roshni Nuggehalli: the other sort of approach we do is we look at existing collectives in these areas. So there might be women's groups. There might be youth groups who have some their own agenda, and the work of Yva also is about collectivizing people in our communities not to approach them as individuals, and if the collective takes social protection presentation on, then it becomes it doesn't become an individual. I'm earning money or not. They might charge 363 00:59:28.730 --> 00:59:45.620 Roshni Nuggehalli: some basic amounts. But when there's a collective with a clear democratic structure which is the goal, that of the collective that we try to set up. Then there's higher chances of basic principles being met that you know, there's no because they're also agents. I mean, there are brokers or agents who charge 364 00:59:45.800 --> 01:00:10.809 Roshni Nuggehalli: 10 times the amount of what benefit you are going to get, and you often never get that benefit. So if it's important to break that as well and not, you know, promote that sort of thing. So working with collectives to become the therefore champions actually, has potential to be much more authentic in that way, and last also longer beyond the life cycle of an individual who, you know, might have their own motivations. 365 01:00:11.250 --> 01:00:12.730 Roshni Nuggehalli: Want to add anything. Money enough? 366 01:00:15.460 --> 01:00:31.019 Okay, thank you very much. I think we have to move on to the next paper. Chitra, I'm very happy. You made it online. the floor is yours. If you have a presentation, can you share it with us? Thanks again to Marina Androschni. 367 01:00:31.620 --> 01:00:32.430 Okay. 368 01:00:37.570 --> 01:00:40.880 Dr Chitra S Nair: thank you. my audible 369 01:00:41.290 --> 01:00:43.879 yes, we can hear you and see you. 370 01:00:44.810 --> 01:00:45.770 Dr Chitra S Nair: Thank you. 371 01:00:46.040 --> 01:00:50.809 Dr Chitra S Nair: let me start my presentation and share my screen. Just a second. 372 01:01:10.570 --> 01:01:15.639 it's not yet in full presentation mode. So it's a bit small if you can. 373 01:01:17.490 --> 01:01:19.350 Yeah, perfect. Thank you. 374 01:01:23.420 --> 01:01:30.119 Dr Chitra S Nair: Thank you. All. Today, my presentation is about an evaluation 375 01:01:30.240 --> 01:01:35.330 Dr Chitra S Nair: done on hunger. 3 district projects and community kitchens run in. Kerala 376 01:01:35.500 --> 01:01:41.360 Dr Chitra S Nair: Kerala is the southernmost state in India, and I present this paper 377 01:01:41.520 --> 01:01:47.760 Dr Chitra S Nair: to see these 2 projects as a model to build social capital for good governance. 378 01:01:56.830 --> 01:02:00.340 Dr Chitra S Nair: 3 things are needed for humanity to Co exist. 379 01:02:00.670 --> 01:02:03.249 Dr Chitra S Nair: truth, piece and basic needs 380 01:02:03.340 --> 01:02:07.820 and everything else is irrelevant. I will start with this 381 01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:10.230 Dr Chitra S Nair: quote from Suic. I say. 382 01:02:13.510 --> 01:02:21.210 Dr Chitra S Nair: as an introduction. I would like to say about the definition given by United Nations on food security. 383 01:02:22.370 --> 01:02:35.599 Dr Chitra S Nair: It means that all people at all times have physical, social, and economic access to sufficient safe and nutritious food that meets their food references, and itly needs for an active and healthy life. 384 01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:43.190 Dr Chitra S Nair: Everywhere in the world, especially in the case of developing nations, food insecurity is often linked to poverty. 385 01:02:43.430 --> 01:02:50.679 Dr Chitra S Nair: Facts and figures shows that a number of countries are facing acute levels of food in security 386 01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:53.690 is on an increase even before COVID-19, 387 01:02:54.050 --> 01:02:59.070 Dr Chitra S Nair: which has reduced the incomes and disrupted the supply chains. 388 01:03:00.160 --> 01:03:04.689 Dr Chitra S Nair: Coming to the Kerala model of development, let me familiarize 389 01:03:04.770 --> 01:03:22.670 Dr Chitra S Nair: the model of development that is existing in Kerala. The small state in the south west coast of India it is often highlighted for its better social indicators, social security measures and quality of life. Despite low Gdp and economic growth. 390 01:03:22.820 --> 01:03:24.760 Excellent records. 391 01:03:25.900 --> 01:03:38.259 Dr Chitra S Nair: excellent records of the State in education, health, and human development indicators have helped it to achieve standards of development comparable to most Western nations. 392 01:03:38.460 --> 01:03:48.929 Dr Chitra S Nair: The pandemic period has put the State into it. Another challenge of meeting the economic stroke that literally held family economies stagnant and suffering 393 01:03:49.120 --> 01:04:02.890 Dr Chitra S Nair: for achieving the true essence of a welfare state. It is essential to recognize that a range of different actors and organizations are involved in shaping, overseeing, and implementing social policies. 394 01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:18.949 Dr Chitra S Nair: health, social protection, education, and other social welfare issues contribute to a complex process of influence, decision making and administration resulting in desirable governance for the welfare of 395 01:04:21.420 --> 01:04:28.549 Dr Chitra S Nair: this paper is an evaluation of the 2 noble state programs in Kerala that put people at the forefront 396 01:04:28.790 --> 01:04:32.930 targeted food security in the pre pandemic and pandemic period I like 397 01:04:33.560 --> 01:04:44.390 Dr Chitra S Nair: first, one is for him or hunger-free District Project. Is it a Sanskrit word that means package of food or packet of food 398 01:04:45.020 --> 01:04:51.630 Dr Chitra S Nair: for this project was implemented for destitute and order people living alone. 399 01:04:51.960 --> 01:05:01.000 Dr Chitra S Nair: Second project is the community kitchens that provided food for the people during the pandemic, irrespective of their socioeconomic status. 400 01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:10.239 Dr Chitra S Nair: These projects and programs were implemented in collaboration with code embassy units. Could industry units. 401 01:05:10.380 --> 01:05:14.690 Dr Chitra S Nair: It means women self-help groups. 402 01:05:15.070 --> 01:05:20.800 Dr Chitra S Nair: And I'll quote them or within neighborhood groups 403 01:05:22.530 --> 01:05:34.640 Dr Chitra S Nair: now coming to the overview of the project path here, or hunger Free District project, it aimed at alleviating poverty and ensuring that No. One in the State stops 404 01:05:34.870 --> 01:05:42.950 Dr Chitra S Nair: launched initially with the 2 from budget in 10 panchites panchay. It means the local self governing bodies 405 01:05:43.150 --> 01:05:57.919 Dr Chitra S Nair: It was implemented, launched in 2,01670, and later it was expanded to 72 punches and 5,000, with 5,074 beneficiaries in the budget of 7 growth in 2,018 and 90, 406 01:05:58.600 --> 01:06:09.879 Dr Chitra S Nair: destitute and older adults about 60 years of age. They are given cooked food as foot passes at their doorsteps. Through these women's self help group workers. 407 01:06:11.960 --> 01:06:39.600 Dr Chitra S Nair: An overview of the community kitchen shows that during the pandemic women's self her groups in India was actually, on a whole, mobilized to meet shortages in masks and sanitizers, run community kitchen, restore fresh food supplies, provided food and support to vulnerable and high risk families. They also provided financial services in rural areas and disseminated COVID-19 advisories among the rural communities 408 01:06:39.700 --> 01:06:47.189 Dr Chitra S Nair: supported under the national. A rural Livelihood Mission run in India and go financed by the World Bank. 409 01:06:47.230 --> 01:06:56.929 Dr Chitra S Nair: this, of about 62 million women across India. 410 01:06:57.590 --> 01:07:01.349 Dr Chitra S Nair: Coming to Canada, we can show we can see 411 01:07:01.500 --> 01:07:02.440 and 412 01:07:02.540 --> 01:07:10.219 Dr Chitra S Nair: excellent implementation of these programs. In March 2020, when the lowdown was first introduced in the country. 413 01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:22.619 Dr Chitra S Nair: Kerala Government initiated community kitchens with the help of local self governments and the mission, that is, the women say, help groups. 414 01:07:22.860 --> 01:07:36.960 Dr Chitra S Nair: Community kitchen aimed at providing free food to homeless people. Guest workers, mainly migrant laborers. Actually, Kerala is considered as a Middle East for the laborers from other States in India. 415 01:07:37.210 --> 01:07:42.099 Dr Chitra S Nair: where, sufficient wages and other working conditions are ensured 416 01:07:42.800 --> 01:08:02.160 Dr Chitra S Nair: so the micro laborers there taken care of is people people from Adibasi hamlets, that is, the tribal hamlets, bedridden patients marginalized to community members, inmates at care homes, and those who make it living through beggary. 417 01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:07.920 Dr Chitra S Nair: who cannot buy food during lockdown, but also included in this program. 418 01:08:08.450 --> 01:08:11.240 Coming to the paper, we 419 01:08:11.410 --> 01:08:17.680 Dr Chitra S Nair: collected data from 3 local self-government bodies 420 01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:21.729 Dr Chitra S Nair: with highest number of Hfdp beneficiaries 421 01:08:21.810 --> 01:08:33.300 Dr Chitra S Nair: one having 168 in. beneficiaries, another one with 1 64 and the other one with 1 50 422 01:08:33.900 --> 01:09:01.480 Dr Chitra S Nair: and and mix it. Mythology was used for the study. Out of the 482 total beneficiaries of Hfdp. In these 3 franchise the study utilized 342 older edit beneficiaries, structured, individual and tenant. To be grate was used to collect the data. Field visits was conducted by the researcher and was assisted by Codember Street unit members. In these respective areas, observation case studies and narrative analysis were used. 423 01:09:02.430 --> 01:09:09.790 Dr Chitra S Nair: Coming to the findings. We can see that the beneficiaries for these programs they're selected on the basis of 424 01:09:10.020 --> 01:09:21.509 Dr Chitra S Nair: poverty, destitution, conditions of physical and other limitations, multiple vulnerabilities like widowhood, asset listeners and lack of income were given priority. 425 01:09:21.810 --> 01:09:31.730 Dr Chitra S Nair: And what? What is more, the all the election criteria adopted by the State. 426 01:09:32.030 --> 01:09:36.699 Dr Chitra S Nair: what members that is, the local self-government bodies, administrative offices. 427 01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:53.310 Dr Chitra S Nair: the ponchite secretary, that is, the local self government body section 3 Cds community development Societies and Ads area development societies of these women's cell health groups selected the beneficiaries only after conducting the field. Verification. 428 01:09:53.370 --> 01:09:55.669 Dr Chitra S Nair: direct verification was done 429 01:09:55.720 --> 01:10:00.729 Dr Chitra S Nair: on an extensive way for selecting their beneficiaries 430 01:10:00.740 --> 01:10:15.040 Dr Chitra S Nair: and engagement of local self government authorities gave practical knowledge and life skills for these beneficiaries to seek help as well as inform their peer group to apply for support under the scheme. 431 01:10:15.420 --> 01:10:35.249 Dr Chitra S Nair: The aim of the program extended widely from the initial phase to include as many beneficiaries as possible in the following phases. This is in the case of Hfdp. That is hunger, free district program. But in case of community kitchens, no reservations, they're made everybody where 432 01:10:35.260 --> 01:10:37.050 Dr Chitra S Nair: given 433 01:10:37.250 --> 01:10:44.919 Dr Chitra S Nair: all the possible support in respect you of their income strata also, because during the pandemic period there were. 434 01:10:45.040 --> 01:10:56.579 Dr Chitra S Nair: more demand for food as well as essential supplies. All these things were met with the help of these women, self help, roots and community kitchens. 435 01:10:56.900 --> 01:11:14.819 Dr Chitra S Nair: majority of the beneficiaries. We can see that they were daily wage earners. As my earlier presenter has said, most of the poverty taken, people in India are engaged in unorganized the sector construction works, hand room industry, fishing, agriculture, and Allied jobs 436 01:11:14.990 --> 01:11:20.840 Dr Chitra S Nair: and majority of the beneficiaries of the hunger-free district program, where, over the event. 437 01:11:21.150 --> 01:11:28.709 Dr Chitra S Nair: and we have to notice that Kerala is one of the leading States in India. In case of the aging of population 438 01:11:29.100 --> 01:11:34.839 Dr Chitra S Nair: and the educational status of the respondents also showed that many of them were illiterate. 439 01:11:35.050 --> 01:11:42.009 Dr Chitra S Nair: or in a sense, with having a little educational status. 440 01:11:42.060 --> 01:11:48.009 Dr Chitra S Nair: And even with this little ability over their letter over letters and numbers 441 01:11:48.140 --> 01:11:56.049 Dr Chitra S Nair: even though they leave the alone, they let it stress for life before getting supported by these schemes. 442 01:11:56.210 --> 01:12:06.569 Dr Chitra S Nair: and food was all of the basic need they preferred after shelter. Most of them were satisfied with the a meal that was given 443 01:12:06.820 --> 01:12:15.019 Dr Chitra S Nair: per day, and there was we. We can also observe, a change in the dietary choices after 444 01:12:15.140 --> 01:12:17.050 they become old 445 01:12:17.960 --> 01:12:28.149 Dr Chitra S Nair: and before becoming a beneficiary of this program, they didn't have any nutritional preferences or nutritional account of their food. But 446 01:12:28.200 --> 01:12:36.340 Dr Chitra S Nair: when the community kitchens and the 100 of your district program was implemented, this was also taken into care. 447 01:12:38.710 --> 01:13:03.940 Dr Chitra S Nair: and coming to the pandemic period. We can see that logged on for the challenges to all these programs, how this routine programs were run. They're all to the changed, due to the quarantining and reverse, war and time, processes and all. But the we can see that the State rose to the location within a limited time and set up community kitchens as an alternative. 448 01:13:04.280 --> 01:13:17.620 Dr Chitra S Nair: The State itself issued orders and modalities for operating community kitchen under local self governing bodies that is. everywhere in the State. The programs will be run in a single way. 449 01:13:17.670 --> 01:13:21.210 Dr Chitra S Nair: The procedures, the processes everywhere will be safe 450 01:13:21.500 --> 01:13:36.389 Dr Chitra S Nair: and community kitchen was also also offered by Ngos associations and local self-help groups, local residents, associations and working Women's working women and Working Men's Association also. 451 01:13:37.100 --> 01:13:43.700 Dr Chitra S Nair: And these communications, they're running schools, auditorium. So similar spaces. 452 01:13:43.710 --> 01:14:05.990 Dr Chitra S Nair: Wherever there were a cooking space. Wherever there was talking facility available, they the such spaces that are used in in a unique manner so that these programs run smoothly and address the food security of the needed 453 01:14:06.330 --> 01:14:13.089 Dr Chitra S Nair: of those who were in need. And another thing was that these were managed by volunteers. 454 01:14:13.240 --> 01:14:17.500 Dr Chitra S Nair: Every citizen in the State 455 01:14:17.600 --> 01:14:21.269 Dr Chitra S Nair: have been a part and possible of this 456 01:14:21.320 --> 01:14:24.720 Dr Chitra S Nair: community kitchen or the hunger for district project 457 01:14:24.770 --> 01:14:40.939 Dr Chitra S Nair: because of the social necessity, and we can see that the there was a next creation there. There was a mobilization of social capital. In this manner, from March to May 2,020, we can see that 458 01:14:40.940 --> 01:14:59.239 Dr Chitra S Nair: it is 6 lax, 51,627 people was served for through community kitchens alone, which was run by 1,034 local self governing bodies. And this is the case of local a community kitchen stand by local self-governing bodies only 459 01:14:59.420 --> 01:15:08.820 Dr Chitra S Nair: in addition to this comes the community kitchens run by Ngos and other civil society organizations. 460 01:15:09.010 --> 01:15:36.389 Dr Chitra S Nair: And we? We can see that there there was an The strict Protocols were observed awarding assembling of people, and for that during the Peak period of Covid pandemic. A hubbone spoke. Model of food distribution was developed for sourcing food from existing networks, such as canteens run by the remnant cell phone groups and sending these out as parcels to multiple destinations. 461 01:15:36.490 --> 01:15:45.370 Dr Chitra S Nair: These services provided all these services are provided to all the needy people completely free of cost. Later 462 01:15:45.860 --> 01:15:48.630 Dr Chitra S Nair: this after the pandemic period 463 01:15:49.040 --> 01:15:51.990 Dr Chitra S Nair: after the restrictions they are lifted. 464 01:15:52.150 --> 01:16:11.320 Dr Chitra S Nair: these codemustry Mission Run community kitchens were converted to Jenaki, a hotel that is also a that means people friendly hotels to serve budget meals for rupees. 20. And these were also operated by women self-help groups. 465 01:16:11.880 --> 01:16:20.550 Dr Chitra S Nair: In that sense the we can see that those who were engaged in these community kitchens or the hotels, the people from the hotels 466 01:16:21.140 --> 01:16:26.259 Dr Chitra S Nair: opinion that the gender work done by women in 467 01:16:26.390 --> 01:16:43.109 Dr Chitra S Nair: kitchens or in houses that just cooking and serving meals. This received an acceptance, social acceptance as an economic activity, as in this and as a social service when it was institutionalized to through these paper-friendly hotels. 468 01:16:44.220 --> 01:16:51.639 Dr Chitra S Nair: And that, we can see that there will be 3 main teams identified. 469 01:16:51.740 --> 01:16:57.399 Dr Chitra S Nair: and the first one is really second, one is the and third, one is inclusion 470 01:16:58.550 --> 01:17:11.450 Dr Chitra S Nair: regarding release. Many of the case studies revealed that the welfare program to provide food for those in Cv. Are need was a relief. It in myanicipated their never ending feeling of uncertainty. 471 01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:16.860 Dr Chitra S Nair: The program made them experience care from the Society and the State 472 01:17:16.990 --> 01:17:27.350 Dr Chitra S Nair: cook for delivered on time homely preparation by the women's cell health groups. Sufficient attention given for the including the nutritional component. 473 01:17:27.360 --> 01:17:31.130 All of these added values to this program. 474 01:17:31.310 --> 01:17:34.900 Dr Chitra S Nair: and they had developed a sense of security and care 475 01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:40.310 Dr Chitra S Nair: hand in me created. 476 01:17:40.350 --> 01:17:59.869 Dr Chitra S Nair: There will be a person to endure daily, whether they are fine or not, whether they need anything, whether they are they, if they need medicine or any other supplies, they will get the information passed to the local self-government bodies 477 01:17:59.930 --> 01:18:19.140 Dr Chitra S Nair: and women beneficiaries also, that they have developed good friendships with these volunteers and waiting for the package to arrive, and a person to share their feeling and worries, give their life a sense of purpose. They were that they had that sense of whatness in being alive. 478 01:18:19.330 --> 01:18:29.630 Dr Chitra S Nair: and they were able to manage adverse health conditions and have enough rest. Otherwise they have to cook food or have to depend upon others for their food. 479 01:18:31.190 --> 01:18:41.709 Dr Chitra S Nair: And regarding belief. We can see that there was a an increased belief in humanity among the beneficiaries. 480 01:18:41.890 --> 01:18:50.209 Dr Chitra S Nair: They experienced a sense of dignity that is, there is the red reduced to feeling that all the people are burden to the family and society. 481 01:18:50.310 --> 01:19:05.509 Dr Chitra S Nair: and I it. Another benefit was that they were able to report their health issues to the Asha workers. Asha workers means accredited social health activists 482 01:19:05.660 --> 01:19:09.849 Dr Chitra S Nair: that are women working in the health sector 483 01:19:09.990 --> 01:19:14.719 Dr Chitra S Nair: and that is also supported by the State and the Center government. 484 01:19:14.750 --> 01:19:35.609 Dr Chitra S Nair: and their intervention was also helpful in providing acting care for these beneficiaries, even though most of the respondents were unaware of the name of the program. They may not be on the program. The path here, or the hunger for district program by which they are 485 01:19:35.680 --> 01:19:47.360 Dr Chitra S Nair: still the food. But they know for sure that the local government is taking care of their basic needs. So the next team was 486 01:19:47.390 --> 01:20:07.759 Dr Chitra S Nair: inclusion. There was increased visibility for the vulnerable groups into State policies. Limitations faced by the clear take is during the pandemic period. Also, we're taking care through this community support system and the effective implementation of programs and wide coverage of the programs help the people alike. 487 01:20:07.830 --> 01:20:19.539 Dr Chitra S Nair: and there was a mobilization of social capital and the belief in the political system, welfare schemes all showed it the good governance model for the 488 01:20:19.580 --> 01:20:21.429 Dr Chitra S Nair: people before the people. 489 01:20:21.460 --> 01:20:38.040 Dr Chitra S Nair: so we can see that there is a relief from hunger. Health issues, loneliness, abandonment, invisibility of vulnerable, vulnerable groups. At the same time there is belief in humanity so to support purpose in life and good governance. And all these things 490 01:20:38.090 --> 01:20:40.079 Dr Chitra S Nair: led to inclusion 491 01:20:42.070 --> 01:21:05.669 Dr Chitra S Nair: as a conclusion, I would like to say that this dialtical process of stated and the of to groups and public. Both bodies, as resulted in a support, led security as distinguished from growth, led security support led security, achievement of growth and poverty, reduction through wide ranging public support 492 01:21:05.760 --> 01:21:32.669 Dr Chitra S Nair: given in areas such as employment, tradition, income, reduced distribution, health care, education and social assistance in order to improve distribution without waiting for a transformation in the level of the general affluence. The study proves that judicious use of available resources and integration of appropriate stakeholders can bring about tangible results in improving the quality of life of the citizens. 493 01:21:32.670 --> 01:21:50.759 Dr Chitra S Nair: Public action has served careless approach as a proactive and interventionist state that response to popular demands for basic social security and a mobilized and politically conscious society that puts pressure on the State and hold it to account. 494 01:21:52.570 --> 01:21:53.500 Dr Chitra S Nair: Thank you. 495 01:21:54.130 --> 01:21:55.790 Thank you very much. 496 01:21:58.410 --> 01:22:13.390 could you? stop sharing your screen so we can see you even bigger on our screen here. So The floor is open for questions. Again, I would ask those who have questions to come up here so that Cheater can see you. 497 01:22:22.390 --> 01:22:32.279 Hello! I'm Anna Kablowski. I was wondering. It sounds like a phenomenal program where everything worked without any problems. 498 01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:37.119 And as a yeah, a model 499 01:22:37.590 --> 01:22:52.939 as sociologists, we always try to also see where are their difficulties. and I didn't hear anything about that, or any place where you had to readjust, or where there were frictions, or whatever. 500 01:22:58.090 --> 01:22:59.579 or were there none? 501 01:23:01.390 --> 01:23:06.369 Dr Chitra S Nair: No, thank you very much for this wonderful question, Monica. 502 01:23:08.190 --> 01:23:10.189 Dr Chitra S Nair: And as we all know. 503 01:23:10.340 --> 01:23:27.430 Dr Chitra S Nair: when there is a novel program being implemented, there will be lots of problems associated with it, because, in a pandemic situation when there is no earlier models precedence to for a model. 504 01:23:27.510 --> 01:23:31.020 Dr Chitra S Nair: then the path has to be 505 01:23:31.290 --> 01:23:39.109 Dr Chitra S Nair: constructed from our own ways. So what we have witnessed is that 506 01:23:39.150 --> 01:23:54.350 Dr Chitra S Nair: wherever, whenever there is a flow, or wherever whatever, where the little pit of anxiety and flows that has happened, that where that was 507 01:23:54.410 --> 01:23:56.469 immediately adjust. 508 01:23:56.900 --> 01:24:08.219 Dr Chitra S Nair: And I have, they are not being able to include 2 or 3 of the limitations that was set by the respondents. 509 01:24:08.550 --> 01:24:13.300 Dr Chitra S Nair: and one is that they were saved. 510 01:24:14.040 --> 01:24:15.709 Dr Chitra S Nair: only one, me 511 01:24:16.280 --> 01:24:23.590 Dr Chitra S Nair: only one me and that is with regard to the Hunger Free District Program. 512 01:24:23.670 --> 01:24:29.120 Dr Chitra S Nair: But when it came to community kitchens that was changed to 3 times. 513 01:24:29.150 --> 01:24:31.210 So it was addressed 514 01:24:31.720 --> 01:24:48.790 Dr Chitra S Nair: when in the Hunger Free District for program only the destitute and the economically vehicle section were included. But in community kitchens all the set of people who were ever needed and support from the State was delivered well, food 515 01:24:48.870 --> 01:24:51.500 Dr Chitra S Nair: whenever they were in need. 516 01:24:51.710 --> 01:25:13.139 Dr Chitra S Nair: And another problem was the peak time of pandemic period. And there were volunteers less number of volunteers to distribute the food. And there were quarantine issues and all, and hand to. And the problem of 517 01:25:13.270 --> 01:25:16.670 Dr Chitra S Nair: what? What do you say? The 518 01:25:17.090 --> 01:25:40.309 Dr Chitra S Nair: connection that that is? we. We will not be the reluctant to use the food food and packet food package that has, that that are delivered by the people by hand, because we don't know know who are infected, who who are not. So that was an issue, and another for That was an issue. But that was also addressed 519 01:25:40.320 --> 01:25:49.680 Dr Chitra S Nair: by the State. But why? I didn't mention that as a limitation was that all of the limitations were addressed to a great extent 520 01:25:50.210 --> 01:26:04.849 Dr Chitra S Nair: unlike any other state in the country. This was beautifully met by the State of Kerala, and another thing was that the pooling of human resources that is, from another generation. 521 01:26:04.850 --> 01:26:26.900 Dr Chitra S Nair: a lot of people, students, college growing students and all volunteered for being a a delivery voice. And another thing was the limited 1. One limitation was migrant laborers. As I said, Carla is considered a Middle East for migrant laborers from Northern States of India. 522 01:26:27.650 --> 01:26:30.090 Dr Chitra S Nair: So they were stuck in our State. 523 01:26:30.210 --> 01:26:38.020 Dr Chitra S Nair: and immediately through the local self governments and the agents to which they are being deputed in our state 524 01:26:38.250 --> 01:26:43.439 Dr Chitra S Nair: list. Of all the migrant labels that are taken. 525 01:26:44.160 --> 01:26:52.359 Dr Chitra S Nair: and immediately after taking the least, all the self government, local securements, they are interested the 526 01:26:52.590 --> 01:26:56.880 Dr Chitra S Nair: I the task to trace them 527 01:26:56.900 --> 01:27:01.799 Dr Chitra S Nair: to get the the condition and I in which they are living. 528 01:27:01.820 --> 01:27:09.359 Dr Chitra S Nair: and they were given a good shelter, food and medicines that were needed. 529 01:27:09.440 --> 01:27:13.530 Dr Chitra S Nair: and in in fact, the State also. 530 01:27:19.820 --> 01:27:22.139 we lost your chat round. 531 01:27:27.300 --> 01:27:33.289 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Hello! Sorry for the interaction. But now we can hear you. Okay, go ahead. 532 01:27:38.580 --> 01:27:40.190 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Hello! Can you hear me? 533 01:27:40.310 --> 01:27:41.999 We can hear you. Yes. 534 01:27:42.670 --> 01:27:43.910 yeah. Okay. 535 01:27:45.430 --> 01:27:55.480 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: So you know, the State also arranged the transportation facilities for the migrant lab. And as we can see what is happening today. 536 01:27:55.840 --> 01:27:59.010 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: the migrant levels are being 537 01:27:59.200 --> 01:28:01.109 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: a given 538 01:28:01.120 --> 01:28:02.160 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: proper 539 01:28:02.350 --> 01:28:07.459 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: food, proper medication, proper immunization facilities as well as 540 01:28:07.550 --> 01:28:25.080 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: the children of migrant Liberals. The families of migrant Liberals that are paying in our State is being taken care of. They are given better educational facilities. They are given education in local languages, regional languages, and 541 01:28:25.190 --> 01:28:41.789 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: and their concerns are being met by the State government through these local test government bodies and the Ngo. And we can see that there is a there is a a model for other States in India. June. 542 01:28:42.320 --> 01:28:47.659 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Follow how the State run all these facilities 543 01:28:47.780 --> 01:28:49.350 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: with maximum 544 01:28:49.670 --> 01:28:50.789 talk about 545 01:28:51.460 --> 01:28:55.449 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: coverage and at least 546 01:28:55.550 --> 01:28:57.750 Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: possible grievances. 547 01:29:00.890 --> 01:29:29.769 So thank you again, Chetra, for your presentation and for your answers to these questions. I think we have to move on now. with the next part of the program as I've mentioned. It's a pre-recorded presentation. So there is not going to be any possibility to ask questions. But For the remaining 20 min. We would like to show you that presentation which is 548 01:29:30.020 --> 01:29:53.150 in a way linked to other presentations, because it's also kind of trying to link different services governmental services together, as we have heard in several other presentations. but anyhow, thank you very much for joining this session for those who are getting tired. I will now play the last presentation. 549 01:29:53.270 --> 01:29:59.549 and then you can wish you. I wish it, and a good last of the day 550 01:30:11.630 --> 01:30:15.729 I think it should come after a few seconds. 551 01:30:26.280 --> 01:30:26.990 Yeah. 552 01:30:34.540 --> 01:30:42.140 my name is Lauren Graham, and I'm presenting this presentation service system, strengthening 553 01:30:49.190 --> 01:31:14.060 an approach to promoting service delivery to meet you in underserved communities. I'm presenting it on behalf of also of my co-princible investigator, Professor Arian D. Who is from the Southern Africa Labor and Development Research University of Cape Town. I myself, or from per cent. Of the social development in Africa, at the University of Janesburg. 554 01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:26.889 Neat rates in South Africa, have remained steam and worsened post-covid, as can be seen in the diagram on the left. 555 01:31:27.260 --> 01:31:39.640 This situation is, despite significant policy, effort, and spending on addressing both youth unemployment and on expanding access to post-secondary education and training. 556 01:31:39.970 --> 01:31:44.590 So how do we begin to solve for this very complex challenge? 557 01:31:47.280 --> 01:32:03.369 Poverty and its related outcomes are systemic in nature. That means that no single intervention will improve the outcome. This is well demonstrated in the experiences of youth who are not in employment, education, training. 558 01:32:03.420 --> 01:32:17.829 who are not only out of the education system and but also typically face multiple other forms of deprivations, making it that much more difficult to reconnect to learning and learning opportunities. 559 01:32:18.350 --> 01:32:38.149 This diagram represents the situation well. Not only are these young people facing, usually coming from backgrounds of income poverty, but they also experience inequate housing and basic services for health and safety, fragile families. 560 01:32:38.380 --> 01:32:50.910 poor mental health, limited access to information, etc. And all of these deprivations intersect to make the pathways to reconnecting, to learning and learning that much more difficult. 561 01:32:55.120 --> 01:33:16.560 As a result, we developed an evidence-based program called the Basic Package of support for Bps that aims to ensure that you feel more supported or more resilience, and have better mental health outcomes that youth understand and have access to services that help them overcome barriers to employability. 562 01:33:16.580 --> 01:33:35.659 that they are then able to spend more time in employment, training, and education, and or education, that they have show improvements in the standard health, education, financial and overall well-being, and that a community of practice at the local, provincial and national levels are able to amplify support for young people. 563 01:33:35.840 --> 01:33:54.120 The diagram on the right represents how this model works. At the centre is the young person who should be able to access a range of different services that will help them to overcome the multiple barriers they face and get onto a pathway towards learning and earning. 564 01:33:54.670 --> 01:34:04.780 However, this requires that we are able to refer them to a range of different services ranging from child search support to 565 01:34:04.790 --> 01:34:23.610 financial support, opening a bank account being able to develop A. Cv. And school in post-school education support health clinics, mental health services, Ecd programs and social grants, parenting programs, because many of them are also caregivers and the like. 566 01:34:26.370 --> 01:34:47.379 So the Bps program has 2 problems. The first is that it proactively reaches out to young people who are needs, amplifies, customized in-person guidance through a trained youth coach. It refers young people to available services and opportunities, and continues to support them as they take action steps towards their calls. 567 01:34:47.810 --> 01:34:57.919 But if this program also relies on us working with local service providers in a community of practice to ensure that they understand the multiplicity of young people's needs. 568 01:34:57.960 --> 01:35:12.729 Problem solved collaboratively to improve service delivery and promote better coordination and articulation between these services. And for this presentation I am focusing on this second element of the program 569 01:35:15.090 --> 01:35:34.180 why a social system, strengthening approach, social policy scholars and development agencies make the case for integrated and complementary social investments in key social domains to break the negative cycle of disadvantage that underlie these deep-seated economic, racial, spatial, and social inequalities. 570 01:35:34.320 --> 01:35:48.309 So, for instance, the Who Unicep and the World Bank have developed a framework to promote better outcomes for children in the early years, and they propose the creation of nurturing care environments that integrate various interventions across different social sectors. 571 01:35:48.690 --> 01:35:58.019 And there's a growing evidence of the need for services that complement cash transfers, as is evidence in the recent systematic review of cash plus outcomes. 572 01:35:59.240 --> 01:36:16.430 So so so we, we are looking at a social system strengthening approach to this cash plus process. We've also seen in international evidence that employment programs work best when they're integrated with a range of other aspects of service delivery. 573 01:36:16.770 --> 01:36:26.919 The social system, strengthening approach borrows from health system, strengthening in which emphasis is placed on multi-sectional collaboration to achieve improved health outcomes. 574 01:36:28.350 --> 01:36:40.690 The program question, then is, can improved. Outcomes will need to be achieved through a so social system, strengthening approach that promotes the crowding in of services for a vulnerable, vulnerable group. 575 01:36:40.799 --> 01:36:47.879 This is the longer term program question that this program seeks to address. 576 01:36:50.520 --> 01:37:11.630 So community of practice approach is a suitable approach that can be used to promote social system, strengthening the cop or community of practice can be defined as a group of people who share a concern, a set of problems or a passion about a topic, and who deepen their knowledge and expertise in this area by interacting on an ongoing basis. 577 01:37:11.940 --> 01:37:31.100 3 elements of a cop is that we have a group of people that have shared identity, coalescing around a domain of common interest, of our shared vision community critical to cops as the relationships among members, and the sense of belonging as well as that commitment to joint activities, discussions of learning 578 01:37:31.219 --> 01:37:46.690 and the practice, the shared repertoire of communal resources, body of knowledge, methods, stories, cases, tools, and documents. The cop approach is one that takes time and sustained into action to see results. 579 01:37:47.500 --> 01:37:56.669 The cop approach has been adopted largely in the field of agriculture, education, health, and more recently, in child well-being, promotion. 580 01:37:58.040 --> 01:38:06.000 we are yet to find evidence of this approach being used to strengthen the service delivery to marginalize people. 581 01:38:07.240 --> 01:38:22.229 So the research question that we sought to answer was, Can a community of practice focused on supporting vulnerable youth, to overcome barriers, to reconnecting, to learning and earning opportunities, be implemented and achieve early outcomes. 582 01:38:22.280 --> 01:38:40.199 We define these early outcomes as sustained interest and engagements in the community of practice. some evidence of collaboration, evidence of taking action and evidence of shared learning, as you'll see in the findings, we found several other outcomes as well. 583 01:38:41.049 --> 01:38:55.949 Here is what you would see as early outcomes in the longer term. We are interested to understand whether this community of practice can improve service delivery to young people. But we're too early on in the process to be able to answer that question. 584 01:38:56.620 --> 01:39:14.240 The focus areas that we've implemented the community of practice approaching 3 Perry urban areas. Orange Farm and Atlantis, in Khartang and Western Cape of South Africa and in and metropolitan municipality in quasi-mattel. 585 01:39:14.610 --> 01:39:19.460 This. this presentation is focused on just the period of. 586 01:39:21.440 --> 01:39:29.950 And, as you can see from this map, these are areas where we have high rates of young people who are not an employment, education and training. 587 01:39:30.950 --> 01:39:49.460 the methodology that was used with participatory action research where we invite service partners and generate by-in. We have in our first meeting a joint assessment of the problem and identification of the problem which generates for us data about attitudes and understanding of responsibility. 588 01:39:49.490 --> 01:40:06.599 There's then presentation of evidence in the form of stories and numbers, a reassessment of the problem. an ongoing observation of engagements. and then we conduct interviews with clock members 8 months after the first meeting, using the purpose of sampling. 589 01:40:06.820 --> 01:40:15.280 We analyze all of this data thematically, based on the outcomes anticipated in the theory of change for progress. 590 01:40:17.200 --> 01:40:34.009 We've got 2 very different cops running in Atlantis. We have a small community of practice of about 8 organisations that regularly attend engagements. It's a very active cop, and it includes representatives from the Phoenix, local Youth Development Organisations 591 01:40:34.320 --> 01:40:59.790 police, which were a later addition to the the community, early childhood development Forum and the local college. In orange form. We have a much larger community of practice of 28 organizations. What we've seen there is limited action, and it includes representatives from clinics, the South African social security agencies, social workers, skills, centers and youth development organisations and many, many 592 01:40:59.830 --> 01:41:01.010 vacations. 593 01:41:02.630 --> 01:41:22.030 So what if we found we've seen that we have sustained interest and engagement in both of the communities of practice. and that pops have managed to keep the same participants engaged over a period of 8 months, which is evidenced by regular attendance at meetings and full engagement. During the meetings 594 01:41:22.360 --> 01:41:32.879 in Atlantis we see that those organizations are represented by the same people over and over again. That is crucial for a relationship for them. 595 01:41:33.270 --> 01:41:48.670 however, in Orange Farm for several organizations, they are sending different representatives each time the group meets. And this has what we found eroded the relationship and shared identity aspect of the community of practice. 596 01:41:48.770 --> 01:42:01.360 And so what we see is that in in Orange Farm the community of practice has much more on community forum deal with matchless action, and that far more meetings rather than a community of. 597 01:42:02.130 --> 01:42:09.350 And this gives us some interesting counsel, points to understand what works better and in different contexts 598 01:42:11.490 --> 01:42:20.319 we have seen evidence of collaboration as is evidenced in these 3 quotes. I'll just read one of them. 599 01:42:20.610 --> 01:42:30.969 I can take something out of every meeting. The fact that we have different things going on when we actually do meet the fact that we can work together. So if I wanted to know something, I can bring it to the cop 600 01:42:30.990 --> 01:42:40.519 if something is challenging, I can bring it to the cop, and we can brainstorm, and that is important, because other stakeholders might set with other challenges, perhaps, and they bring it to the club. 601 01:42:43.540 --> 01:43:03.419 We also see. And this was an unexpected outcome. a saints of of shade accountability. So here we have one of the representatives from Atlantis who says absolutely, I'm being held accountable now. So they are like an accountable authority. If I can say that if it makes sense. 602 01:43:03.430 --> 01:43:26.230 knowing, for instance, what I liked was when I had to do this whole pledge thing. The team was at the campus. I had to do this page now to say that I do not pitch my commitment to what I've signed up here all at the Bps, and that made me feel like people see value in what I do. They see my value of the services that I'm bringing, because they want to share this to whoever is out there who would need it. 603 01:43:26.870 --> 01:43:34.380 It makes me brush up my sword, sharpen my sword at the end of the day, because I want to be a part of this, you know, because that's the go to. 604 01:43:36.140 --> 01:43:53.620 We have also seen evidence of taking action far more so in the Atlanta site, where we have a smaller community of practice than in the Orange Farm site. So some examples are that the community of practice partners have arranged a quarterly service expo in which members of the C. 605 01:43:53.720 --> 01:44:12.540 And the local service providers showcase the services they offer to community members, including youth. Okay? But also when they were faced with evidence about young people's struggles to access health care. The local clinic arranged a weekly youth power hour in which the clinic focuses on serving young people. Only 606 01:44:12.670 --> 01:44:30.300 we've also seen that the local labor office has seen the work that's been happening at the basic package of Support Office and has implemented a career of council in kiosk when they realized that many young people were beyond 25 and needed career. Counseling support 607 01:44:30.760 --> 01:44:40.950 in Orange on action has been much more difficult to promote. And that's owing largely difficulties in agreeing on what actions to prioritize with such a large group of people 608 01:44:41.040 --> 01:44:57.880 today, if working groups have been set up and they've meant. But we've seen limited action. One action that has emerged is that the local clinic in recognizing health challenges health access challenges that young people had have opened up a new entrance specifically for you. 609 01:44:59.830 --> 01:45:18.800 Here are some quotes from the partners who were interviewed about the and the action. What we've seen here for instances that the community lawyer and Orange Farm is able to and and receive referrals from other organizations and then able to assist them 610 01:45:19.020 --> 01:45:37.120 and do some follow ups But and so what we see there is that there are actions of community of practice, partners referring to one another where they are unable to help, but they they are able to refer to somebody else in the community. 611 01:45:39.500 --> 01:45:57.149 We also see shared ownership. this is a quote from one of the college represents itself in Atlantis. Everything from the meetings we have. Remember, we are actually involved. We are back to. We are not just sitting here, and we see, and we care about the change. And we want to jump onto the wagon to see where I can bring. 612 01:45:57.320 --> 01:46:08.019 So because of our active involvement that is making the change. So it's really encouraging to see that people who are participating see their own role to play. 613 01:46:08.690 --> 01:46:31.740 and then shared learning both in terms of how young people are viewed, and in terms of understanding their responsibility. And to young people this is a lovely quote from the Ecd Forum representative in Atlanta. She says, I can remember when I received an email, and I thought, No man, this is not for me. I'm not so much focused on youth. 614 01:46:32.010 --> 01:46:43.490 And either way, I don't like the youth because they're so full of nonsense, and you don't know how to approach things. I think I've seen it in one of our top meetings that I don't like the and they were laughing, poking at me. 615 01:46:43.570 --> 01:46:54.919 But then they explained that you have to be around them to understand them. You have to be with them, to understand them. Otherwise you're going to have that mentality which I've had for a long time where I didn't want to work with you. 616 01:46:55.280 --> 01:47:23.039 I can remember. I went to the first meeting which Michelle invited me to off to so many knows, and then said, Okay, I'm going to go. And you know, without the saying anything negative, because there was no. But that day when I sat there I told them that I should actually apologize for not attending the other meetings, because I now see there's such a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of you, and you know what. I took some of that stuff, and I came back and I brought a chair to the Ecg Center. 617 01:47:25.430 --> 01:47:38.209 although we've seen quite positive and promising outcomes. There are also a number of challenges that we identified in the in the interviews and in our observations of the community. 618 01:47:38.260 --> 01:47:51.589 Our practice and meetings and engagements. there's definitely a threat of becoming another forum. This is a a a large threat in the Orange Farms site, where we have a much bigger community of practice. 619 01:47:51.860 --> 01:48:08.660 And this is also a community where community forums are the mainstay of promoting, working together, but often lack action and become simply regular meetings. and this means that cops can and need to be very well managed to avoid becoming just another forum. 620 01:48:09.160 --> 01:48:19.880 We have seen financial challenges. Some of the cop members mentioned that they struggle to come to the engagement because of transport costs that threaten the sustainability of the programs. 621 01:48:20.210 --> 01:48:33.560 We have seen challenges in service gaps. Sometimes the much-needed services simply do not exist in the community. For example, mental health support in Atlantis. always service providers simply resist joining 622 01:48:34.060 --> 01:49:03.630 and then unclear expectations, particularly in the larger community of practice in Orange Farm, because it's such a big fact group. And because they aren't regular attendees, we have found that some of the participants have unclear expectations of the cop and what they can get out of the clock, what's in it for them? And this has led to some frustration which threatens the ability of the the cop to be held together and to 623 01:49:03.880 --> 01:49:30.400 attract other organisations. And then we see ongoing competition. Competition is definitely one of the factors that undermines collaborative efforts, and we have seen a particularly in the orange farms site that our organizations continue to compete over resources, and often come to the cop meetings with the expectation that through their involvement they'll be able to be able to access resources. 624 01:49:32.430 --> 01:49:49.810 In conclusion. What we found so far is that the cock approach shows promise as a mechanism for promoting service system strengthening. But it requires excellent skills in community liaison, and it says, implications for how we recruit the the community of practice conveners. 625 01:49:50.080 --> 01:50:07.380 It also requires ongoing mentorship of these convenience to ensure that the cop principles are adhere to, and that the cop doesn't become another forum. and the move from meetings to action to sustain engagement and promote shared learning opportunities is absolutely crucial. 626 01:50:07.910 --> 01:50:21.019 In future research we will be looking at whether this cop approach ultimately delivers better service delivery to young people, and in that case we will be talking to some young people who have access these services. 627 01:50:22.870 --> 01:50:25.020 Thank you for your time. 628 01:50:26.040 --> 01:50:30.189 Well, if she cannot hear us, thanks a lot to Lauren for 629 01:50:30.400 --> 01:50:33.849 this pre-recorded presentation. 630 01:50:34.140 --> 01:50:48.239 and thanks to everybody here in the room and online for staying until the end of this session, our time is up. have a good evening. Those who are here in Melbourne have a good day, those who are are far away. 631 01:50:48.360 --> 01:50:51.589 Thanks, everybody for joining this session. Bye, bye. 632 01:50:51.880 --> 01:50:52.000 Roshni Nuggehalli: thank you. Bye, bye.