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Anna Skripchenko: Yeah, I will start with a couple of words. good morning, dear colleagues, and welcome to our session organizations and digital innovation, which is organized by the research Committee, our C. 17 sociology organizations.

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Anna Skripchenko: I'm sorry for my voice. I got a bit cold. I hope you can hear me.

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Anna Skripchenko: my name is Anna Scriptchenko, and my colleague. Here is Marco Austin Maya. I am a research associate, and Marco is a post-doctoral research associate at the Helmut Schmidt University, University of German Armed Forces in Hamburg.

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Anna Skripchenko: The difficulty of Economic and social sciences

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Anna Skripchenko: and we have very happy to welcome you to our session. It's 2 Am. In Germany, and I'm really grateful for everyone who has made it at this be a little bit uncomfortable, unusual time. And

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Anna Skripchenko: we're very excited and looking forward to the session now, discussion today, and of course we would like very much to thank Timothy. Marjorie Banks for being here tonight and agreeing to

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Anna Skripchenko: making it possible to make it a hybrid session, because none of us, none of the organizers, is present, and also thank you to Michael.

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Anna Skripchenko: Who is also there. Hi! Micro

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Anna Skripchenko: so It would be hardly possible without your support. And before we start, and before we start, and before Michael will say a couple of words of introduction. I I would like to take a moment and say the acknowledgment of country

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Anna Skripchenko: on behalf of everyone. Get that? I pay respect to the spirit of country. Here in Nam, where we are meeting virtually I acknowledged the past and present cooling nation. Voluntary boy! Voron, as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders

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Anna Skripchenko: who maintain and promote the norm aboriginal law customs and custodianship responsibilities for country and the people that country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

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Anna Skripchenko: I recognize the important to contribution that first nation thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nation delegates in the room today for their contribution to knowledge in the discipline.

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Anna Skripchenko: thank you very much. And, Marco would you like to say a couple of words?

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Marco Jöstingmeier: Yes, thank you very much, I know. and thanks again from my side. Of course, on. Tim

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Marco Jöstingmeier: has agreed to. the in person share. Yeah, thanks to Michelle, who seems to organize all that. you know right now, the technical side especially, and everything

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Marco Jöstingmeier: beyond that.

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Marco Jöstingmeier: And yes, I want to say some introduct introductory words to what is the main theme? The main topic of our session. And it's called organizations that digital innovation. And I think that's all news in the Us. C. 17 organizations central actors in modern societies. And they are, of course, central actors in driving digitalization

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Marco Jöstingmeier: today. And what does that mean for different types of organization? Like we have our 3 talks today. like news organization media organization like the classical type. If you want to say so, firms, economic firms are cooperatives. And

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Marco Jöstingmeier: yeah, what this digitalization, of course. it is conceptualized, especially in sociology. Today, I think we have that as one of the great challenges of today's modern society, and one of the great challenges for every organization, of course, and digitalization is of at the same time, both in a chance for organization. And it is a problem, a challenge for organization. And the question is, how do they cope with it? How organizations?

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Marco Jöstingmeier: Co, with this

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Marco Jöstingmeier: demand to be more digitalized or to be more digitized? And how do they

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Marco Jöstingmeier: deal with that challenge? And so this we have the first concept organization as a special type of social system or social field, whatever you want to call it. we have the second of digitalization, which also from a sociological perspective is always the question, how does it affect

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Marco Jöstingmeier: society? And processes of

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Marco Jöstingmeier: the of the of the social? And the third concept which is especially for me. Very important is innovation, and innovation is to. In today's society, I would say, a guiding theme, a guiding principle in Joan, and I think this world is known for English native speakers like motif.

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Marco Jöstingmeier: It's really a dislike motif. This guiding principle which is generalized across society. We all have to be innovative in the

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Marco Jöstingmeier: optimal case, and for organizations, as especially every organization today has to be innovative, whatever that means in the special case, whatever that needs for news organization, for media organization, for

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Marco Jöstingmeier: firms, for cooperatives, for school. It's evil for universities, etc.

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Marco Jöstingmeier: And it seems not only that every organization has to be in a innovative. But when I look at our 3 talks today that even some models of organizations like cooperatives and, are really innovative models of organizing today. And all of 3 talks

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Marco Jöstingmeier: really embedded in this 3 forward framework of of the concepts.

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Marco Jöstingmeier: And the question is, how is innovation? Realizing what chances come along with that, and what problems and what challenges. Come along with that, and we have different topics as Tim. Right? I right after my few words we'll address

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Marco Jöstingmeier: the concept of power. And what power relations? How does innovation change? Power relations? How user interaction is changing? when David is what David is addressing, and how the pandemic affected digitalization and cooperatives as a catarina and

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Marco Jöstingmeier: I have to see the that name. Sorry

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Marco Jöstingmeier: and

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Marco Jöstingmeier: and and yes, and yes, Walker. Sorry. Andria's walk addressing. And so we. I hope we can discuss we we have great discussions here and interesting discussions how innovation and

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Marco Jöstingmeier: digitalization is realized organizations in and by organizations. And so I think we could start and we will introduce

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Marco Jöstingmeier: our first talk. Tim.

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Marco Jöstingmeier: Again, I think.

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Anna Skripchenko: just a a word on a timeframe. We are running 10 min late, so the first slot will be the until 10 past 11. Please keep your presentations to about the maximum 25 min plus 5 min discussion.

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Anna Skripchenko: And of course, our first presenter is Timothy, Major Marjorie Banks, Swinburne University of Technology, Australia, with his presentation, titled a contest. That power strategically managing digital innovation in the production of newspapers.

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Anna Skripchenko: Please think the floor is yours.

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Good morning, everyone. thanks so much for coming on this morning, so thanks very much to Anna and Marco for that, for that introduction, and all for all the work in organising this session. Thanks also to Michael for being here and doing all the.

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We'll all the city up here and takes colleagues who come in this morning. 100'clock on a Sunday mornings, a bit of a bit of an ask after 5 or 6 days of a conference, but also acknowledged that colleagues back in Germany up at 2 Am. In the morning. So thank you very much. It's a coming together a range of different.

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So as we talked about as Anna and Mark, I mentioned my talks about innovation and digital innovation in the in the newspaper industry. bringing together a range of research I've been doing over over a number of years. So again, thanks everyone for for coming on this morning.

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What I want to do is to give a couple of different areas, first, of briefly give an instruction of innovation in the news industry and the newspaper industry as an ongoing historical process, and that while we're very much in a profound moment of transformation, currently I think we can get some important insights by taking a longer term historical perspective as as well. I'll just touch on that briefly today.

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And then to focus more in on how digital innovation is being managed in newspaper organizations and with with what effect. And, as I said, I'll be drawing on a range of research that I've been doing over over a number of years. I'm engaging with managers, with journalists and with print workers in in the newspaper industry, in different and different countries.

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Again, this be obvious or clear to many of us. First question of why? Why newspapers? Why the media in general in terms of in discussions around digital transformation and and innovation in a range of sociological and and other contributions, arguing that the media newspapers are an important part of what makes us a society in terms of creating a public sphere contest around what public scratching is constituted by. But it contributes to public debate.

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Media is clearly a site of power in a knowledge-based economy, who who owns the media who controls the media, and she has access to important forms of of of of power, and those are excluded, and she are relatively disempowered. And as people like Mark Dozer, a media scholar from the Netherlands are arguing, we live in a world where the media and life are inseparable places, we can't understand our lives without understanding the media and its place in contemporary society

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in terms of looking more specifically at the at the print media and a newspaper. Again, taking that historical perspective, I think we can see 3 key moments of print innovation. There are others but 3 3 key ones. Firstly, the development of movable type in in countries like China, and then

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very much from a Western narrative. Germany, the Gutenberg press, and so on and round 1440 key moment in in a technological innovation of enabling production of news content that would be distributed broadly and widely to to society

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through the nineteenth and twentieth century we see the the, the the development and solidification of a mass production model of of news production. And when when many of us think about new, the newspaper industry. That's the sort of model that comes to mind the mass production massive print printing presses. journalists churning up millions of copies of of of of of news news content.

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I think it's important to recognize that that model while it was dominant through much of the nineteenth and certainly the twentieth century, and that has been undergoing significant forms of disruption from at least the 19 seventies onward with with computerization challenging the work of journalists and posing challenges for for management of those organizations. So while a lot, quite rightly, a lot of the current discussion around digital disruption in the newspaper industry and media focuses on on the. Now.

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this is part of an ongoing process. It's been going on for at least at least 50 50 years, and for the 3 of us who are here in in Melbourne, and one of the symbolic symbols of this for me in terms of the disruption, is when you're heading out back out to the airport.

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At from the city. You get close to the airport on the right-hand side of the road. There's a a car car show showroom for Zigami cars. There's a sign on which, like looks like it's a rolled up newspaper, because that used to be the the printing presses of the of the Age newspaper and 1015 years ago was.

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it's recreated as A as a car sales. R. It's it's quite as important symbolic representation of how newspaper printing has has changed over the years. And then, clearly, we're at a moment now of a significant digital disruption. And for newspapers there's a challenge to the basic model. What is a newspaper? Do we have to actually have a physical newspaper to to be called a newspaper?

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Profound challenges to the business model. And this is an ongoing, ongoing challenge that that newspaper organizations are continuing to face. And what I'll focus on in my discussion today, and also a range of new competitors, either competitors online, very much trying to mimic what traditional newspapers have done? Or are the competitors, such as the tech companies coming in and to some extent taking over the space of of of newspapers. And that's very much what I'll focus on in in the discussion

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today.

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So the ref research focus, I want to look at all the questions I want to look at today are what innovation strategies have been developed. in relation to newspaper production. And what do they reveal about the power relations within within newspaper companies?

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So for me, in terms of as a as a conceptual framework for thinking about these issues very much. Drawing on institutional approaches from historical and historical institutionalism, also organizational institutionalism, saying that clearly we need to look at what's going on within the organization in terms of the relationships between key actors. So managers in my work has been managers, print workers.

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journalists, how they interact, how they, their their relationship shift or change over time, but also then locating that within a broader context. So looking at how the the local organization is interacting both locally but also nationally and globally. And again, in the Australian context.

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very powerful example of that is News Corporation, an organization that started in in Adelaide in the 19 fifties, and it's gone on to become a a global news media organization, obviously going beyond newspapers. But newspapers have continued to be an important aspect, important component of news corporation as an organization. So also then think about organizations as being located within particular institutional contexts, a particular regulatory frameworks.

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particular ownership structures, and so on. Also building into that. the the idea of what? What exceptions people have about what's actually possible in terms of change in terms of transformation. So some of the other talks through these sessions, people have used the concept of sense making so connections into that sort of literature around, how people making sense of change, what this is, the actual opportunities for change.

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for transformation. And to me also, critically, I think, to think about these changes, these transformations as contested processes that occur across time. It's not. These aren't changes that are happening only at one moment in time they're occurring, developing over quite a long time period, in some, in some cases

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bringing that together. For me, my my main argument is that technological digital innovation is an ongoing relational process. So it involves relationships between actors, both within a workplace context, but also in terms of relationships with actors, individuals, organisations outside of the workplace, policymakers, competitors.

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people cooperating involving fundamental questions around around power. And, as I said, that that involves contests both within and external to the, to the organization.

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basic definition of power against some very familiar people. You very familiar with not completely powers, a contested concept, many different definitions, but for me, in Castells himself has written around a lot around the the media industry power as a relational capacity, can be used both in terms of force, but also in terms of creating meaning, creating consent. So you know.

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connections with Grab. She's analysis of how both force and and consent, and that for me, has been a useful framework for thinking about some of the changes, some of the contests that arise in terms of digital transformation within the within the newspaper, within the newspaper industry.

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So what I want to do is just talk a little bit about some of the key dimensions. of of transformation in in the newspaper industry. And somehow I guess the fault lines, or some of the challenges that that have emerged, and then certainly very happy to talk in in more detail, or to to follow up on some of these in in discussion. afterwards.

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So I think an important, important important starting point for thinking about the the process of of digital transformation and the power dynamics within within the newspaper industry, again, is to take that, take a historical perspective and to recognize that at least for at various times, historically, through the twentieth century

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On the one hand, newspaper industry was a highly profitable industry for owners, and that benefits of that flowed onto management. So we had language of, if you own a newspaper, you've got access to rivers of gold, basically almost got a license to print money that was very much organized around for newspapers around, controlling all around, having very strong access to classified advertising

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newspapers or a key site through which advertisers promoted their products, and in a context of mass circulation that was an important way for advertisers to read, to reach abroad a broad population. And at the same time there was a workplace settlement reached where both print workers and journalists were also able to

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exercise exercise various forms of power and influence within within the workplace. Again, through the Twentieth Century print workers controlled the the production process they control. They controlled. The printing process is that if the print workers went on strike, withdrew their labor. There wasn't an automatic workforce that could come in and take over the work of producing a newspaper so that gave the print workers an important source of of influence in terms of the workplace. Negotiations.

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Similarly, journalists were, were key in terms of their capacity to create content that the journalist, what journalistic workforce, what was a workforce that controlled knowledge controlled the the capacity to to produce news, to produce various forms of content, and couldn't necessarily be easily, easily replaced.

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What we're seeing over the last 30, 40, 50 years, and certainly very much now, are very, very profound challenges to those, to those sorts of those sorts of relationships, those sorts of power dynamics.

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and at least within organisations. One of the arguments that I I make based on the research I've been doing, both myself and with colleagues is that we've seen a very strong shift in terms of power, where by now

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management has much more control over the over the production process, both in terms of journalistic work and in terms of the of of the printing process and and the product and the production process that's to a to a number of of different factors at one level, a chain with digital transformation, a change in delivery, and the and the consumption process. So in terms of how do we consume, or how do we consume print?

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But how do we consume news whenever I'm teaching one of my undergraduate classes when I was 15 years ago, say, how many people subscribe to a paper newspaper, you know, maybe 1520% of the class will put the hand up. Everyone else is already moving online. When I ask classes. Now, it's me. Basically, I'm the old person in the room. I'm the one who's got a paper paper subscription. People are consuming news online

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in terms of an obvious point. But for newspapers, a profoundly challenging one, both in terms of the internal relationships within the workplace for print workers, production workers. The scope of their work. The scale of their work is is drastically reduced.

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but it also has implications in terms of the type of content that's produced or the content creation process. So now for newspapers, whereas newspapers previously were

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maybe once a day, or in some cases there'd be a morning and an afternoon edition.

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Newspapers, now or online, are very much in a 24 h, and new newspaper cycle. So again, we all will have this experience of, we've got our our news sites that we log on, to which maybe are connected to a newspaper or a from a newspaper, but when we log on we expect to see updated news, whether that's in terms of sporting content. So

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at the moment for those of us who follow the cricket. We may be following that online. When I log on again, I want to see what's the latest score. I don't want to see the news from from yesterday. But similarly, for the news cycle for journalists.

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there's a an increasing imperative to be constantly updating updating news, updating, updating the content.

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also some important questions, again, challenging the the dynamics of the workplace in terms of questions around, who is a journalist in the traditional model journalists were clearly people who are hired by a newspaper. They had various levels of expertise, various levels of status within a news organization, and more broadly within within society we are now seeing, and though those boundaries being being challenged that newspapers now are, for example, sourcing news, whether that's written news

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or or or visual news from from the public. So we're getting a blurring of who is a journalist who can claim to be to be a journalist, which is again is having an impact on influence on on the work of of journalists and the power power dynamics within within the new, within the news organization that journalists are in a much more tenuous position now in terms of being able to use their expertise as a claim as a basis for making claims

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within the workplace.

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The the the big question for for news organizations is the business model, and this is a very real ongoing challenge for for news or newspaper organizations about, how do we actually ensure our survival? And again, if we look globally and within certain nations, we can see large numbers of newspapers going out of business. So some some of the some of the discussion around this almost talking about the current transformations

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as an extinction event for newspapers that many newspapers simply can't survive

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what we're seeing for newspapers that are still in the sense and management, trying to in a sense, create a a solution for these challenges? how how do we follow the advertising? How do we attract? How do we attract the advertising for for our content?

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How do we attract subscribers. How do we make basically how to make money out of what we're doing? One level that's through online subscriptions challenge for newspapers. There is it? We we are living in a context where people, the the consumers, basically expect information to be available freely on the web. So why? Why would I be paying for stuff when I can, when I can access it freely.

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Some newspapers, such as the Financial Times, have been able to

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be relatively successful with online subscriptions because they've got a particular type of content. Financial news that isn't necessarily readily available or readily consumable outside of the sort of expertise that they've got. Other newspapers, like the Guardian, very much based on their on the the quality of their news, also being supported by a trust fund. have got some room for for maneuver, and relying in the sense on on voluntary voluntary subscriptions. But for news organizations and for management.

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Developing a profitable news model is is is a is a propound challenge. So part of the response to that has been a constant, constant or continuing focus on cost reduction, on reducing the size of the workforce, laying off journalists, laying off print workers, not necessarily creating their own content, but syndicating content from other news organizations, and in some cases

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reducing the scope or the range of activities or range of actions and news that they cover. So again for many newspapers. Now.

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there's much less coverage of local news. It will syndicate news. We'll get more general news we're going to cut back on on having for example, news reporters covering the local courts. So it's traditionally been a very strong focus of newspapers, but cost money. Let's see if we can. Let's potentially cut back on our on our costs there. So

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again, a range of actions that news organizations have undertaken to

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when they haven't been able to make profits by generating revenue, to, to, to, to to reduce their costs.

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And the other key actor. Another set of characters are external challenges. So we see with newspapers facing a very profound challenge from tech companies companies like Google, like Facebook or Meta.

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who operate as aggregators, bringing together news content that is distributed to to a broad audience. So on the one hand, for newspapers. That's a valuable way of getting their content out to a broad readership. You know, we're all scrolling through our through Facebook. We're scrolling through. We're doing searches on Google at the same time that's developed in such a way that the newspapers actually make very little or no money from that. It's been very much controlled by

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by the tech companies who've been able to use lobbying have been able to use their political influence to create a content of context in which they are the companies that benefit from the advertising, and that that are companies that that content.

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So we've also seen another set of actors get involved at some level through policy intervention. So governments in the Australian context, for example, some legislation in 2021, which is then followed by the development of a of a bargaining code which is trying to set up a context where the tech companies are being not necessarily required, but encouraged. to engage with with the newspaper companies based on an argument from the policy, from policy and from the traditional media companies

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that the the tech companies shouldn't be able to just make money, basically from providing content that they haven't paid for. They're using the content that's been paid for by news newspapers. And but the tech companies are the ones that are that are benefiting

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from from that. So again, when we think about the the when we analyze what's going on in terms of of newspapers, a range of significant challenges that they that they are facing, that for me, in my analysis, are building on transformations or challenges that have been developing over over a number of years, but are really being heightened

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by by the the current the the current context of of digital digital transformation. So for me, the key findings from from the research that I'm doing are that digital innovation in newspapers

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mit Ctl, and is providing an opportunity or a challenge in terms of the power dynamics of relationships within the newspaper organisations. And as in many other industries, we're seeing a strong move towards more managerial and control of the workplace of the workplace organisation 150

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at the same time. That is not. That's not happening completely, freely, or completely, autonomously. It is shaped like previous forms of previous forms of of transformation, going back over over a number of decades within the newspaper industry.

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and at the same time

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Mit, Ctl, and the influence or the capacity of management, and to be controlling and managing the digital innovation process through their own agency is also being constrained by the broader context within which they are which they are operating. Where there are a range of other very significant global organisational players, actors 150

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who are engaging with taking over, working in the same space that newspaper organizations have been have been working. I think that that for me is a space that is very much alive now, and is one that I think the next 20, even next 1015 years, even a shorter timeframe is going to be a profound importance in terms of what the newspaper industry looks like in the in the coming decades.

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Finished it.

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Marco Jöstingmeier: Yes, thank you very much, Tim.

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Anna Skripchenko: Thank you very much for your presentation. now, we can open the floor for questions.

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Yeah. So we have one in the room if you want to.

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Thank you. I think the innovations are

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more double-edged than than you've glossed in in the talk. you know. I mean, there there has been the emergence of new new new newspapers digitally online. it isn't all a story about

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dwindling scale of existing companies. There are new ventures. I'm thinking of things like the new European, which is a fairly recent post. Brexit. newspaper in the Uk. The Guardian, Australia is obviously we've mentioned, that is, is is another case in point. And secondly, I think that the

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I think to see the shifts in power relations purely as a matter of increasing control.

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It's again a bit too one dimensional. I my name's Stuart Clegg. I did some research with the some Norwegian colleagues which produced a book called The Media Management and digital transformation in in 2,019 a outage book. And in that we found that there was quite quite a lot of innovation that was going on in the ways in which journalists actually do journalism in the way in which the organization of of of of journalists

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practice in media organizations is shifting. One of the things that we noticed, for instance, was the way in which. despite the non necessity of the notion of a deadline, the notion of the deadline still persisted even in the digital world. And the the research was action research. So it was oriented towards getting the the journalists to to realize that they were engaged in a flow line, not a deadline, and being engaged in a flow line, actually gives the journalists

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a lot more capacity to be able to enact and to do things, which is, you know, one way of thinking about about power. So I think the power relations are probably a bit more

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complicated, a bit more sophisticated than than than the paper suggests. I think we need to look at the new entrance. Not just what's happening to the old entrance. And I think we need to look at what's happening in the organizing practices in both the new and and and the old entrance. So so it's more of a comment than a question. I appreciate. That student is silly

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very clearly with your work. So I agree that there is those levels of complexity that do need to be built into the analysis, I think. Certainly

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non-hand. Yes, journalists. There are new forms of creativity and work that journalists are doing.

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I think there's also an intensification of the work of of of journalists in the strain context around many of the traditional leg of. So again, focusing on the traditional companies downsizing their workforce, but having the same it.

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So, the remaining workforce having to do more, more work, with less, with with less resources. But yeah. But I agree that there is there. There are those complexities totally that you mentioned.

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thanks, Tim, for your coverage of some really important issues.

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I'm wondering what kind of theoretical conclusions and what could come to, you know, like what, how you could talk about the way the public sphere is being transformed by all these things. Have a master started talking about the new structural transformation of the public sphere. Can you say something about how everything you've talked about might fit into or relate to that kind of theorization of what's going on.

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 good question.

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How did you draw it? Other people's thoughts on that? I think one of the

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it's an interesting one. And for me in terms. On one hand, when we think about the early days of the Internet and the world, wide web, and so on. There is this belief that it would open up, open up the public sphere and make it even more accessible that there'd be more opportunity for more people to be engaging, and to some extent that is the case. But I think there's

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sources to some extent a an increasing privatization of the public, experiencing a number of

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a number of again in, in very basic terms, number of very powerful organisations having a significant control over over the sort of information that is that is, that's being distributed and and and consumed. So it's not really a to answer to your question about. So for me. It's an ongoing set. I think it's an ongoing tension in terms of how we, how we, power and influence, are allocated within the public sphere.

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please.

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I mean the kind of examples I'm thinking of in in the recent Towards the end of the recent Royal Commission into robo debt, the Commissioner, whose name escapes me at the moment, made a point of saying how much better the reporting on the Commission was in the twitisphere than it was in mainstream media, and she congratulated

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all those journalists who use Twitter to kind of report on the on the Royal Commission, and also in recent elections. What's really struck me is how what?

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the mainstream

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newspapers, and so on, have been saying or arguing for, or kind of the way they framed issues seems to have had 0 effect. Right? They threw everything they could it at the latter party in the last Federal election, and it had no effect. And what what seems to be more effective. And more important is what happens in all these other areas like Twitter. So yeah.

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thank you. Appreciate that.

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We. If I could also add a question. I don't know how the time regime is.

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Anna Skripchenko: It's okay. Another 3 min. It's okay.

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yeah. I was wondering about the the effects of measurability, quantification in terms of like switching from a newspaper, or like a lot of

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content, was driven by filling the papers like. When you mentioned the the local news, and that it's now less local news. It it didn't really surprise me, because, like in in like filling the local news pages back. Then I I still remember how absurd it sometimes was like where? Where they where you could really see how they like dating back to these old

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you. You will know that this when when this idea of newspapers came up, the question was, Do we have enough to report on? like, why, why should people care about that? And and like, I think you could really see that sometimes in newspapers

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that they really need to made up make up news. Whereas, like nowadays with the digital means you, you basically, you have this quantity quantifiability. It's the measurability like what interests people. it was. It's it's very different from the newspaper where that you filled it with content. And then, of course, you could make some surveys and so on. But you didn't really know what contents they consumed. Right?

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So what's the impact of that? You?

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I would say, did you want to say someone that stood on. Yeah, I just wanted to add another angle.

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It's it's, you know. The local news may may have have disappeared. So we we we don't necessarily know that there was an accident yesterday on such such an avenue, which is what you know the news the news often would consist of. But global news has expanded enormously as a result of digital innovation. And I'm thinking of things like the recent Guardian series on cotton capital, where they explored the

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auspices of their founders. Engagement in in the slave trade, and the plantation economy, which

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I'm very, very sure was instrumental in the Sydney Morning Herald, and the age in so likewise reporting their non-reporting of things like the Male Creek massacre, and other sort of atrocities against indigenous people. And then, I think, about the Panama papers. Now, none of those things would have been possible without the digital innovations that we

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are addressing. And those are very positive aspects of the digital innovation. So I think we need to bring in the global and the local.

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I totally agree. It's very confident. But I mean, the digitalization again, is an interesting. Again, I think there are

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from 2 sides, but at least 2 sides. One is yes, we can actually track. What are the important stories? What are people engaging with. And maybe the local news isn't that important? But I think it's

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it's very striking, for example, in the Us. That many, many towns now do not have a local news. So there is. And I think there's a little Inspector Roberts question around. What does that mean for the local public sphere? If you're not actually.

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So maybe you're getting online or getting through the radio or other other forms. But I think there are questions there. I think yes, certainly we can get that evidence base around what? What's important, what people are engaging with.

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Again, I guess another side of that story is. you know, again, I guess the idea of click bait that we're putting. We're putting up headlines to to try and attract attention, but which basically is then trying to trying to drive advertising to it, to to attract, to attract, to attract advertising. So again, I think you're right.

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The the data aspect is, is very much enhanced, and can, I think, in gate, provide some scope for

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evidence-based around? What are the critical issues? But I think there's also, again, it can also be used and is used in some news organizations as a means for pressurizing the the journalists in terms of all the internal competition of whose stories are getting the most the most clicks. And why isn't someone else's story getting getting the most clicks?

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But good, important question.

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Anna Skripchenko: okay, we have to now move on to our next next presenter. thank you again very, very much.

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Thank you.

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Anna Skripchenko: And

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Anna Skripchenko: our next presenter, is David's side from the Technical University of Berlin, Germany well, with the presentation, a digitalization as recombination, new patterns of co-construction between industrial organizations and their users.

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Anna Skripchenko: please, David.

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Anna Skripchenko: I think you are still muted on on the microphone.

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David Seibt: I know. but I

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Now I'm unmuted.

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David Seibt:  I'm struggling with too many screens. Another form of

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David Seibt: digital innovation. But okay, so I guess.

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David Seibt: now you can see my screen and you cannot see my notes. Right?

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Confex Tech Support - Ryan: Correct?

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David Seibt: Perfect. So, yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for getting up in the middle of the night or coming in

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David Seibt: in the early morning.

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David Seibt: so my take on digital innovation is quite different from what we've heard now, and it follows from my research on 3D. Printing in the prosthetics industry.

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David Seibt: I'm jumping right in at the beginning of that research stands at 2 propositions.

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David Seibt: The first industries and users are a co- constitutive phenomenon, that is, both of them exist by virtue of their interlocking actions in contemporary Western societies, at least, the act of using almost any piece of technology presupposes the industrial practices of designing, manufacturing and distributing.

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David Seibt: Yet industries stay in existence only if people outside their control take up these products for their own purposes.

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David Seibt: Secondly, industries are currently undergoing profound reorganizations in the wake of digitalization

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David Seibt: in particular digital production technologies such as 3D printing challenge, the organization of product design and logistics and signal the increasing participation of users in industrial activities.

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David Seibt: Now, taking together, these 2 propositions suggest that the digitalization of industry will not merely be a matter of the efficiency of capitalist value production or the future work.

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David Seibt: Rather, if industries change so to their users.

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David Seibt: And this motivates my main research question, namely, how to user rules change in digitalizing industries.

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David Seibt: Now, to answer this question. I chose a case in which the link between industrial reorganization and uses is particularly striking.

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David Seibt: namely, the field of prosthetics.

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David Seibt: In this field the digitalization of design affords new opportunities to express user identities.

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David Seibt: Digital distribution networks make procedures available to people, but so far been excluded, and reproduction enables manufacturers to react to unforeseen use practices long after products have left the factory.

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David Seibt: Still the question remains how to grasp these changes analytically.

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David Seibt: and of course this question is not new

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David Seibt: approaches to the co-.

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David Seibt: Conversely, uses also shaped technology

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David Seibt: and industrial organization. They radically reinterpret or actively domesticate technology.

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David Seibt: and they may even generate new designs for their own use.

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David Seibt: In the early 2,000.

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David Seibt: These findings were further extended with a focus on the feedback loops between technology, design and use.

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David Seibt: Longitudinal studies found that whole ecologies of intermediaries facilitate and regulate the relationship between users and designers beyond the market mechanism.

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David Seibt: Users and user communities

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David Seibt: contribute to all phases of technological innovation, not just ideation and industrial organizations find new ways of representing users and involving them in technology development.

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David Seibt: So by now we do have quite a complex picture of the interrelation between technology supply and use.

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David Seibt: But this complexity itself generates new challenges. After all, the concepts shown here derived from quite different theoretical traditions.

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David Seibt: Some describe more or less the same thing, whereas others are based on divergent ideas about the socio-technical world

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David Seibt: to grasp the relationship between industries and the users.

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David Seibt: I argue, we need to bridge between these various middle-aged concepts and articulate just how the processes they describe interlink.

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David Seibt: And as Samsarusalo has argued recently, this should be done in a principled manner, based on a well-developed associate theoretical foundation.

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David Seibt: Now for my own case, I decided to do this, based on that analysis as developed by Barbara Janowska.

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David Seibt: without at least 3 reasons for doing that.

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David Seibt: First action at analysis emphasizes that electoral identities and roles are constructed through the repeated performance of actions

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David Seibt: and the narrative attribution of meaning to them.

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David Seibt: This allows me to say that users are not something given in advance. Instead, who uses our and what being a user entails is constructed in action and may change as action. Pageants are reorganized 150.

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David Seibt: So user roles are simply socially shared attributions that face people using technology with a set of expectations.

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David Seibt: The second advantage is that action at analysis emphasizes that actions are linked

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David Seibt: across socially and geographically disparate settings through mechanisms of translation and translation here means

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David Seibt: to link actions by making sure that they operate on the same thing.

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David Seibt: If we follow that tool. This can happen in 2 ways. either by physically moving the same object between actions.

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David Seibt: or by establishing equivalence between different objects of action.

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David Seibt: So actions kind of just linked if the same artifacts were body or such is passed on between them, but they also count as linked. If 2 different actions

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David Seibt: are candid as equivalent.

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David Seibt: For instance, a user's body can be translated into a digital scan, the scan into a model, the model into a product

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David Seibt: and the product into money.

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David Seibt: This concept allows me to trace empirically how technology use is bound up with a net of other actions, including technology, design, and distribution, as well as practical lives of users

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David Seibt: themselves.

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David Seibt: The final advantage of action and analysis is that it allows me to analyze the specific role of production, technology and user construction.

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David Seibt: Most sociological approaches to users. Talk about technology only as product, as something that is constructed passed from industries to users and reinterpreted

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David Seibt: by contrast. I want to say that production technologies are themselves

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David Seibt: active mediators that perform some of the most crucial translations between technology supply and use. And in particular, I emphasize inscription and production devices.

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David Seibt: Now, inscription devices.

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David Seibt: are those that transform unwieldy users out there into thin, readable traces that are usable by technology designers.

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David Seibt: They include things like sensors, 3D. Scanners and activity trackers as well as statistical tools and computer aid design software. In short.

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David Seibt: everything that translates embodied users into the numbers, figures and drawings usable in technology, design

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David Seibt: and production devices perform the operate opposite operation, namely.

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David Seibt: translating the output of design activities back into what I call thick usable products relevant for technology use.

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David Seibt: They are the industrial production lines C. And C. Mills. And now threed printers

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David Seibt: that have long been shown to be a central element in industrial organizing.

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David Seibt: So inscription and production devices shape the action acts of user construction by translating back and forth between technology, design and views.

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David Seibt: The crucial thing about digital production technologies is that they allow for a new kind of translation, namely, that between analogue intermediaries and digital data.

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David Seibt: This is crucial, because digital objects have a number of key properties, such as low-cost reproducibility, editability.

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David Seibt: and portability. and being able to go from physical to digital objects

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David Seibt: and back again allows for new links in the action that's between industrial organizations and the users.

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David Seibt: So

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David Seibt: this opens up a whole spectrum of potential recombinations. But these new combinations need to be realized against the backdrop of an existing institutional and infrastructure order.

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David Seibt: Therefore, only some combinations will be actually tried out in practice, let alone stabilize as

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David Seibt: innovative digitalized practices that give rise to new user roles.

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David Seibt: And so for the remainder of this talk.

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David Seibt: I'll give you a quick run through of how this played out in the design, distribution, and use

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David Seibt: of artificial arms and legs.

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David Seibt: Let's begin with design.

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David Seibt: and the question how organizations in the industry represent their users and transcribe desired usages into their products.

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David Seibt: The first thing to note is that these processes differ between the 2 main components of a prosthetic device.

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David Seibt: the socket, which is the part that attaches directly to the human body. the fit components, such as hands and feet, which attach to that socket

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David Seibt: in socket design. Prospective users are represented directly and individually through the so-called plaster cast technique.

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David Seibt: Essentially a trained prosthetist takes a plaster impression of a person's residual limb, and then fills that impression with liquid plaster to get a copy of them in.

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David Seibt: They then pull a sheet of heated thermal plastic over this, plus a negative to create uniquely shaped socket.

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David Seibt: From an action at perspective. This can be can be interpreted as the manual step-by-step translation of a person's anatomy. The representational object of design and fine link into a highly custom product.

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David Seibt: It's quite different in the case of fit components manufactured in batch or mass production.

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David Seibt: Here users are only rarely present in the engineering lab.

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David Seibt: Instead, they enter the design process in the form of highly aggregated inscriptions, like sales, data survey results or anthropometric tables. The resulting product designs are then broken down into a small number of generic variants to allow for industrial scale production.

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David Seibt: using technologies such as injecting moulding

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David Seibt: mass production industrialized on the aggregation of user representations into very course categories.

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David Seibt: For instance, a hand may only be available in 3 sizes, making usability dependent on conformance to statistically produced

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David Seibt: categories.

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David Seibt: Now, the introduction of threed printing offers an opportunity to renegotiate these ingrained actions.

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David Seibt: One example of this is digital mass customization. just like mass production. This process begins from the design of a single product template.

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David Seibt: however unlike mass production.

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David Seibt: the digital nature of that template allows for its subsequent customization along predefined parameters like science, color, or branding.

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David Seibt: applied to the realm of fit components. This results in a wider range of possible product configurations.

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David Seibt: so that people who had been misrepresented by a standardized product can now partly adjust these products to their needs.

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David Seibt: For example, making an extra small pink food, or a child wouldn't pose a problem. In this process.

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David Seibt: however. this inclusive effect may be reversed in the case of socket design.

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David Seibt: craft-based production allows for constant tinkering in the interaction of users and producers

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David Seibt: by contrast, in mass production and mass customization. Sorry the product parameters are fixed.

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David Seibt: and this introduces a degree of standardization to socket design which may exclude users whose anatomy is beverage from standard templates.

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David Seibt: But mass customization isn't the only option.

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David Seibt: In my research. I found that open source. Communities used 3D printers to implement a process better described as scalable custom production.

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David Seibt: whereas mass customization begins from standardization and adds customization later in scalable custom production. It's the reverse. Here. Community members.

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David Seibt: which are usually hobbyists, work with individual recipients to design a custom device reflecting the individual bodies preferred a statics and functionality.

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David Seibt: However, the digital nature of these designs then enables sharing with a wider community of makers can reproduce or further adapt them.

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David Seibt: In effect.

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David Seibt: custom devices can now circulate globally.

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David Seibt: In some cases this has proven highly successful.

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David Seibt: For instance, a partial hand for species originally made for a South African kid, was subsequently adapted for thousands of other people around the globe. The same action pattern may, however, prove detrimental

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David Seibt: where well-meaning hobbyists simply reproduce successful designs for users with different body types or preferred usages.

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David Seibt: And this last point already hints at the importance of distribution in user construction.

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David Seibt: or the question of who gets what?

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David Seibt: Now, if you look at that? we find that the prosthetics industry is marked by a curious mix of local and highly centralized production.

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David Seibt: Standardized components are manufactured in a few central factories to generate economies of scale.

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David Seibt: By contrast. Sockets are produced by certified atrocities in local workshops or clinics. where they are assembled with externally sourced components and aligned to their users. Anatomy

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David Seibt: in the system the accessibility of prostheses depends on 2 conditions.

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David Seibt: First, fit components must get to clinics staff with professional prostitutes and second recipients must have access to clinics to be fitted with the prosthesis

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David Seibt: in Germany, Canada, and the Us. Where I did most of my field work. These conditions are almost always met.

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David Seibt: Logistic infrastructure is guaranteed. The circulation of components. Prosthetic clinics are within driving distance.

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David Seibt: A professional system of prostitutes is in place, and most entities have some form of health insurance. In fact, most people have access to prosthetic care.

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David Seibt: even though not everybody can get exactly what they want, and some groups, of course, face greater hardships than others. You.

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David Seibt: The situation is, however, quite different in many other countries.

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David Seibt: Haiti, where did another case study.

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David Seibt: Access to prostheses is highly problematic.

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David Seibt: Shipping takes month. Roads are inoperable.

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David Seibt: Components don't go through customs and fees, make circulation cost prohibitive.

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David Seibt: They are cute study clinics, and in the absence of health insurance

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David Seibt: these rely on either financial donations or donations in kind, as you can see here, with this cardboard box packed with second hand devices.

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David Seibt: Now, the introduction of 3D printing again reconfigures these action items.

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David Seibt: This is because bulky physical products can now be distributed as digital piles long Internet-based infrastructures and be produced at any place equipped with a suitable machine

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David Seibt: in the global North. This has led to the rise of dedicated service providers operating factories full of Cnc. Mills and industrial great printers.

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David Seibt: Many orthopedic startups rely on their service providers to outsource component manufacturing and set up decentralized production networks

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David Seibt: significantly. Prosthetic workshops now also outsource socket production as they increasingly replace the manual plaster cast process using computer aided design software.

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David Seibt: Such outsourcing paces the industry with massive internal reorganization, including both centralization and decentralization.

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David Seibt: However, these changes

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David Seibt: do little about the accessibility of prostheses as distribution beyond the factory still relies on physical infrastructures and professional prostitutes

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David Seibt: in the global South. the effect of digitalization. I felt more directly in Haiti and several other countries.

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David Seibt: Western Ngos to use desktop threed printers to overcome the infrastructural bottleneck of distribution. The advantage of having a print at the clinic is, that components can now be center in the form of digital as opposed to physical objects.

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David Seibt: even though raw materials still have to be imported. This translation radically speeds up component distribution while reducing cost. The open source model goes even further

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David Seibt: by producing assistive devices on privately owned printers or in shared machine shops.

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David Seibt: They not only bypass conventional distribution infrastructures, but also the institutionalized reliance on professional prostitutes.

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David Seibt: Although questionable in terms of quality and accountability. This approach has made simple assistive devices available to

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David Seibt: 2,000

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David Seibt: of previously excluded amputees around the world

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David Seibt: with almost none of the devices going through a professional prostitute, let alone a national insurance system.

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David Seibt: Finally, this, the question of how user roles are constructed during technology use, and how situated re-interpretations are reinscribed into new design iterations.

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David Seibt: Now it's most of you are aware.

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David Seibt: Arms and legs are parts of our bodies, and

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David Seibt: involved in practically everything we do.

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David Seibt: For this reason there are variety of meanings and usages people find for the artificial limbs is as large as the variety of human lives.

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David Seibt: People use their legs to move around, walk, run, sit, place, boards, etc.

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David Seibt: They use their hands to literally get in touch with things to work and communicate.

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David Seibt: In short, the use of prostheses always involves processes of appropriation and reinterpretation in which people assert and construct their identity.

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David Seibt: This contingency has historically been a challenge for manufacturers

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David Seibt: on the individual level uses atrocities engage in constant tinkering maintenance and adjustment. but when it comes to mass-produced components. The same level of tinkering has not been possible

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David Seibt: in mass production. Even small design changes are expensive and time-consuming as new production lines have to be set up and the certification process is repeated.

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David Seibt: Knowing this, manufacturers have tried to bring users into the lab and conduct user testing before product release.

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David Seibt: However, the effect is if the effectiveness of that strategy has been limited.

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David Seibt: as laboratory conditions

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David Seibt: cannot replicate the embeddedness and contingency of prosthesis use in the wild

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David Seibt: because of this user innovation has always been a common feature of everything, from the split hook to the infamous running blade, have been invented by users for their own purposes.

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David Seibt: By contrast to studying prosthesis use in the lab user. Innovators can draw on constant feedback from using in the wild.

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David Seibt: They pay no regulations on testing. and they are not concerned with making products suitable for the mass market.

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David Seibt: When their innovations to become available on a large scale, it is usually because they are picked up by industrial manufacturers.

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David Seibt: Now it has often been assumed that user innovation would become more common with digitalization.

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David Seibt: But I found that digital publication equally enhanced the ability of manufacturers to react to user feedback. Industrial threed printers have made it possible to move from rapid to prototyping to rapid production.

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David Seibt: which means that manufacturers are now able to make directly usable prototypes give them to people outside of the laboratory

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David Seibt: and re-inscribe their feedback.

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David Seibt: As a result, some organizations now update their products more quickly than they can physically test and certify them.

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David Seibt: On the one hand, this has led to the exploration of digital simulation as an alternative to physical test rates.

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David Seibt: and on the other it has led to the labeling of users as beta testers who are given early access to constantly updated products.

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David Seibt: The same dynamic of rapid iteration was multiplied in open source communities

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David Seibt: make us. We're collaborating with user users testing what were arguably early prototypes in diverse settings.

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David Seibt: They therefore got highly differentiated user feedback.

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David Seibt: for instance, Us. Children were using the mechanical look and functionality of printed hands to imitate their favorite superheroes.

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David Seibt: patient adults, on the other hand, suggested actually reducing mechanical functionality in favor of a more natural appearance that would allow them to pass as normal

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David Seibt: as make us re-inscribe that feedback. Large variety of new devices emerged, that others could in turn fit to new users.

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David Seibt: Now, very, very briefly, what can we learn from these observations about the effect of digitalization in industries. First of all, we see that industrial reorganization has effects far beyond the realm of production.

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David Seibt: The digitalization of industries affects people in contemporary societies, not just as workers, as makers or professionals, but as the users of industrially made products.

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David Seibt: Secondly, we can understand these changes by saying that digital inscription and production devices allow for new kinds of translations in the action ads that link industries and users.

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David Seibt: They do so by translating back and forth between analog intermediaries and digital objects.

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David Seibt: These digital objects have unique properties, such as hide a high degree of programmability, reproducibility, portability, and editability. In theory. These enable a plethora of new combinations, stream standardization, customization, centralization, decentralization, or re-interpretation and reinscription.

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David Seibt: As we have seen

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David Seibt: throughout this talk, many of those new combinations are being tried out in practice, changing the rules of both users and industrial organization.

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David Seibt: Traditional modes of user construction related to craft-based custom production and industrial mass production are being challenged. New digital modes organized around open source communities or digital platforms are being tried out.

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David Seibt: but not all new combinations work equally well. So the stabilization of new action at S,

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David Seibt: innovative social practices appears as a highly selective process which depends on the integration in existing patterns of action and the realization of stable feedback loops

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David Seibt: between industrial organizations and their users.

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David Seibt: So the future task for organization scholars interested in digital innovation may be to attend to the double dynamic of increased combinatorial potentials and their selective realization

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David Seibt: and practice. And with this

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David Seibt: I thank you for your attention.

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Anna Skripchenko: thank you very much, David, for this extremely interesting presentation. Now we have time for some questions. We have to keep an eye on time, though. maybe

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Anna Skripchenko: 3 or 3 to 5 min would be okay. Still, so

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that was a a, a really interesting paper. And I want to give you something very, very closely related to it that I've been involved in researching, and have just published a a paper in a journal about, and that was the case of open source medical supplies.

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which began very, very rapidly as an improvised response to COVID-19, a digital platform was established and the digital platform

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became a repository of curated designs of personal protective equipment for health workers who were under great stress because the just in time supply system had collapsed in the face of the shortages created by Covid and the sicknesses created by Covid in the workers that were producing

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the supplies. So this open source medical supplies platform was responsible for a globally distributed production of Ppp equipment, which was designed

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from so designs that were curated, legitimated, and inscribed centrally on the platform, but which were fabricated locally by Fab labs by people with 3D. Printing by small-scale entrepreneurs with with a a factory which was able to be brought on on online to do it. So what was marvelous about this was that it was

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absolutely organized without any a priori planning. It was not an organized project, it wasn't how hierarchical it was panarchical, and it really shows the potential affordances of the kind of phenomena about which you you have been talking. So thank you very much for the paper. I really, I really enjoyed it, and I I can very

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evidently see the linkages to the work that I and my colleagues have been involved in.

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David Seibt:  as Stewart. Thank you. actually, I wanted to write that paper that you did And actually, some of the people that I worked with in the open source community in prosthetics were involved in the medical equipment efforts as well.

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David Seibt: I I've been trying to be very critical of them. actually, I mean I it's it's easy to celebrate them. And I did that a fair bit of that as well. But I've been quite critical of them in the distribution department because,

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David Seibt: what happened in in prosthetics was that

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David Seibt: actually, this community grew rapidly. It attracted thousands of members, and these members were just printing away

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David Seibt: products that in other places where medical devices

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David Seibt: for people that they've never met. they distributed cardboard boxes filled with hands

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David Seibt: to places where nobody knew what to do with them, and I I think that some of this, at least, has been happening in the COVID-19 crisis as well, and as long as it is like face shields, and such that might not be problematic. But when we talk open source ventilation machines that might actually be something that

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David Seibt: should be certified, and that should be tested.

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David Seibt: And I know that these communities have been trying to put up their own

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David Seibt: infrastructures for doing that. But still I think it's it's a good thing to be a little bit critical about their work as well.

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Can I just make a rejointment, please?

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Yeah, I think that's right. But the the important aspect was that the the organizational learning was very, very fast and and and and it was able to be implemented almost immediately due to the platform.

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Doubtless many, many lives were saved, and it there was no alternative, literally because the the supply chains had collapsed. There was what an institutional void, and the the improvisation!

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And the translation, and the inscription and the inscription was a really crucial part, because, as if designs were dud, or had dysfunctional effects that was immediately registered in inscription on the platform. So the you know, the learning the learning was was great. I I think this is

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very, very innovative. The difference between the situation I'm describing and the one you're describing is that

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there was no external event which precipitated a mass need for the appliances that were being produced, whereas in the case of Covid Covid was an externally contiguous event which which did produce that need. But both cases, I think, point to the possibility of new modes of organizing for the future, which.

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precisely as you have argued so articulately in your paper in your presentation entail the user being something more than just the consumer. It's the, it's it's bringing the user into the actor network. So again, more power to you. I thought that was a very nice paper.

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Thank you.

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May we add one more question.

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Anna Skripchenko: please? Very short. Okay, I try.

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 So yeah, I have a comment and thanks for the interesting presentation. My comment is a little bit more critical. So you open up with like action nets and actor network theory and industries and users, they co-constitute phenomena. And it all sounds like very like, Oh, yeah. And then they inscribe and re-inscribe and so on. But

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honestly, most of what I have seen in this presentation is just a reproduction of the medical model of disability, of of compensation, of of having one less limp or a hand is is something that needs to be compensated with something that basically mostly imitates what has been before like this.

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This picture of the Haitian lady was, I think, very.

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very a a good example of that. Where? it's it's for for for me that is like what? Where's the in the the the inscription seems to be really this, this medical idea of. For we need to compensate this deficiency. And and basically try to pass as natural as possible. And even even in the cases where we have not seen that

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it's it's I have mostly seen the reproduction of strong cultural scripts, basically being the inscription, like, then you have competitive sports where you try to design the prosthetics, then, according to the needs in sports, or you have, then oh, the prosthetics! Reflect your your fan. that you are a fan of Captain America, but that's also for me, like inscription of of

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of very strong cultural norms. So I really

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did not really grasp what the actual user. The individual user inscription is like, I saw a lot of reproduction of of strong societal norms and inscriptions. Actually

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David Seibt: well, and as a sociologist, are you very surprised about that?

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David Seibt: I mean, it is. It's very clear that this is the case.  And I could I talk, could talk endlessly about this. But,

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David Seibt: There are some. What I was saying is not that 3D. Printing in this industry is overcoming

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David Seibt: cultural biases or such, but that there are new dynamics between industries and their users. For instance. you you were talking about this Haitian lady.

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David Seibt: What actually happened is that you get this prosthesis designed for a South African kid with a very particular Lind difference.

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David Seibt: Now, this thing is shared online. It's reproduced in the Us.

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David Seibt: for children there

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David Seibt: who say, well, now, I look like a superhero. So

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David Seibt: people there that you know it's this evolutionary dynamic where they redesign these things.

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David Seibt: for the children to look like super superheroes. Then they run out of children to fit. and they think again

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David Seibt: ere

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David Seibt: huge backlash. Oh, this isn't a superhero! This is the zombie.

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David Seibt: and then again they go on to redesign these things.

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David Seibt: But before 3D printing. And this digital dynamic.  that wasn't possible. you know you, you were on version 3 of a hand that was to designed in during the Second World War.

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David Seibt: So the fact that these stereotypes, as you said, come to the fall so rapidly, is actually an effect of an updated action at making use of digital technology. So it is in itself something quite remarkable, I would say, as somebody

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David Seibt: who's become slightly familiar with this. with this field.

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Anna Skripchenko: Thank you very much. We have to move on now to our last slot.

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Anna Skripchenko: And of course you can all read the book by David.

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Anna Skripchenko:  Katrina, Isak and Andreas Walker. from The Research Institute Scientific Center for Research and cooperation in Montreal, John Germany, if I'm if I'm correct.

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Anna Skripchenko: Oh, correct.

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Anna Skripchenko: Yeah. The title is the digitization of cooperatives during the COVID-19 pandemic. The floor is yours. You welcome.

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ADG Predia: Thank you. You can hear us.

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ADG Predia: Yes. Okay, wonderful. Thanks for having us. Thanks for the invitation. Thanks for the organization. in the next few minutes we will talk about some of the results of approach it, which which was founded by the dottage different 2 of the digitalization of operators during the COVID-19 pandemic, we have a little agenda.

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ADG Predia: well, first, start with an introduction, of things, we're going to present you, I'm coming from 2 different. That is the conductive. We'll talk about the methods of the studies we'll talk about. the our first research project, which was a qualitative one and present you. some of the results

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ADG Predia: we then continue to talk about a quantity to survey. We conducted as well. Talking to you. Our representing a you, the positive and negative effects of the digitalization. And conclude with the summary of results.

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ADG Predia: The research project, new challenges for cooperatives between digitalization and President proximity which started during the COVID-19 pandemic asked about the needs and requirements of cooperators regarding digitalization.

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ADG Predia: This questioning is all the more urgent because the cooperative model. But it's very idea relies on proximity, and the change in the world of work is bringing about and move away from proximity kind of it. This approach

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ADG Predia: in the case of digitalization, it is a distancing and decentralization of workspaces, and an, as in chronny of working hours, with the simultaneous creation of virtual proximity areas.

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ADG Predia: In Germany they are about 7,300 core offices with over 22 million members.

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As such they represent a significant socioeconomic factor.

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ADG Predia: Cooperatives are funds of organization loaned by ethical premises.

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ADG Predia: These premises include voluntary and open membership as well as democratic procedures.

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ADG Predia: However, cooperatives are also characterized by their proximity to their customers and members. This closeness is formulated as a reference to originality or as a concern for community

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ADG Predia: after the International Co-operative Alliance citation. Cooper just works for the sustainable development of the community to policies approved by their members.

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ADG Predia: By the way, this proximity does not necessarily have to be of physical nature. It can also be idealistic, for example, by sharing an ideal.

431
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ADG Predia: And so we wondered, how will these forms of proximity change through digitalization? At first clients, at least, a kind of digital literacy, as a form of knowledge and dealing with digital technologies seems to be necessary in order to guarantee the closeness between cooperative business practice and the members of customers.

432
01:21:45.440 --> 01:21:58.800
ADG Predia: and a basic knowledge in the areas of it. Security or strategic management is probably also necessary for the different cooperative business forms, so that they can fundamentally help shape the changes in their working world.

433
01:21:59.620 --> 01:22:11.770
ADG Predia: Cooperatives and Germany have developed into a particularly crisis recession and survival form of enterprise, successfully countering the transformations triggered by economic rises or political changes

434
01:22:11.930 --> 01:22:19.119
ADG Predia: based on this resilience, the central research questions of the research project. Were we stressed it on the

435
01:22:19.130 --> 01:22:29.619
ADG Predia: on the slides, you can see what are the needs and requirements of cooperatives with regard to the digital transformation. So we talk about the requirements.

436
01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:38.749
ADG Predia: second, to what forms and content of education can support or enable cooperatives to successfully digitize the business areas.

437
01:22:38.770 --> 01:22:45.649
ADG Predia: transform them into the digital world and or open up new business areas or models.

438
01:22:45.690 --> 01:22:53.429
And third, how flexible and adaptive act for operative activities with regard to increasing digitalization.

439
01:22:53.640 --> 01:23:09.480
ADG Predia: And the following, the first question will be answered at least a little bit. For you. Utilization means many things from the use of digital technologies to the reorganization of social processes.

440
01:23:09.580 --> 01:23:23.049
ADG Predia: The sociologist to Becka has related to utilization, to other media and pension after oralization, literacy and literaryization digitalization is the next next step. So something new happens

441
01:23:23.170 --> 01:23:34.850
ADG Predia: for the sociologist. Amin Nasi. Technical digitization answers the problem of a digital society which he locates in the nineteenth century. With the advent of statistics.

442
01:23:35.820 --> 01:23:58.040
ADG Predia: It is not merely a matter of a quantitative processing capacity, but also of a need for computing that is to be seen. Quotation and the quality of change, of social complexity, situations, the increase in complexity, and the growth of data thus made processing procedures necessary through which society would learn something about itself.

443
01:23:58.700 --> 01:24:05.379
ADG Predia: Now see, you, becka agree that in the digital society experiences itself as a difference from itself.

444
01:24:05.410 --> 01:24:18.009
ADG Predia: while Mecca, however, emphasizes that the break with modernity, the C is pattern in the digital that does not merely refer to what already exists, but first finds these patterns in the data.

445
01:24:18.230 --> 01:24:34.819
ADG Predia: Digital society processes itself, so to speak, in the digital patterns. Digitalization is, that's a recombined self observation of society. Digitalization is therefore not a project of the future, but the current mode of how society processes itself

446
01:24:36.400 --> 01:24:48.100
ADG Predia: from a certain such an obstacle perspective, technical digitalization does response to the problem of digital society that has to find a mode of organizing itself and processing its own data.

447
01:24:49.780 --> 01:24:52.729
ADG Predia: This is a transformation that then described as the

448
01:24:52.920 --> 01:25:04.020
ADG Predia: to quote a young Felix Scarlet, the computerization of social coordination structures as well as the accompanying socio-economic adaptation processes.

449
01:25:04.380 --> 01:25:06.720
ADG Predia: The rest of the world of work

450
01:25:06.780 --> 01:25:16.960
ADG Predia: by means of digitalization which occur during the COVID-19 pandemic may have had following effects again.

451
01:25:16.990 --> 01:25:32.649
ADG Predia: at first, a destabilization of employment biographies, a precarization of employment relationships. an intensification of work through technical and organizational rationalization and control measures, a flexibility of working progress and processes.

452
01:25:32.750 --> 01:25:38.269
and a temporal and spatial dissolution of boundaries between painful employment and private life.

453
01:25:39.400 --> 01:25:40.140
ADG Predia: It's

454
01:25:40.290 --> 01:25:58.460
ADG Predia: about re stretching the world at work. and they are our project. Our study begins. concerning the methods in the spirit of the Co-OP, which is idea. The core of the research project was the idea of networking different cooperators from different sectors.

455
01:25:58.530 --> 01:26:10.899
ADG Predia: This idea was supported by the following considerations. organizations operating in different sectors. I like you to have sometimes familiar, but sometimes with different needs and requirements in terms of the visualization.

456
01:26:11.170 --> 01:26:28.570
ADG Predia: So instead of consuming a single digitization, approach it to be purposeful to cover digitization thematically as broadly as possible in order to initiate this networking a workshop, for it was chosen, as this enables the participants to contribute their own perspective as far as possible.

457
01:26:29.370 --> 01:26:49.229
ADG Predia: the content of the 2 works. we conducted it was the digitalization of the working world. It says, the understanding and design of digital processes as well, and the development of business models using agile methods and small and medium size enterprises. for

458
01:26:49.260 --> 01:27:04.820
ADG Predia: Cooper just works from a cooperative from the areas of banking train and goods car sharing and co-working space. We're recruited for the workshop of trans workshop. 7 different cooperatives for represented in the first workshop, and 8 in the second

459
01:27:05.330 --> 01:27:18.250
ADG Predia: in the run up to the workshops. The question that was designed and sent out to them, which, on the one hand, was intended to record what expectations the participants associated with the workshop, and what previous knowledge they had.

460
01:27:18.780 --> 01:27:37.099
ADG Predia: It was also intended to document the current state of digitalization in the participating companies after the workshop see me structured interviews for conducting with the participants in these interviews the challenges of digitization, and the individual companies will discuss in particular.

461
01:27:37.440 --> 01:27:45.010
ADG Predia: the first world check took place in June 2022. Still, at the time of the pandemic. The second works of this year in January.

462
01:27:45.650 --> 01:27:55.889
ADG Predia: In the following, we will now contrast the results of this study with the results from another side. We contacted, as said with Co. Which is banks, especially the second study

463
01:27:56.250 --> 01:28:03.739
ADG Predia: of quantitative nature, explicitly asked about the resilience of cooperatives during the pandemic.

464
01:28:03.950 --> 01:28:12.710
ADG Predia: also covering the digitalization of the companies. But it also asked about prices management during the pandemic and the economic consequences for the companies

465
01:28:12.900 --> 01:28:23.980
ADG Predia: of the approximately 5,000 banks. We contract to 328, completed the question, in full this correspondence to a rate of 6 persons.

466
01:28:27.080 --> 01:28:43.309
ADG Predia:  so okay, at first. first of all, was digitalization does not mean technical aspects. We said, it's already rather, digitalization seems to refer to an increase in communication effort

467
01:28:43.410 --> 01:28:48.179
ADG Predia: extended with customers and other stakeholders, internally with employees.

468
01:28:51.940 --> 01:29:15.149
ADG Predia: concerning the results coming from co-operative things during the first out of all concerning the first study? they said that, or they also be it that originality is really important. they thought about They. They thought that the possible introduction of a digital euro makes thanks fear

469
01:29:15.150 --> 01:29:29.469
ADG Predia: and losing their relationship with customers as because they are all regional things. they also talk to us about the difficulties with the digitalization of incoming mail and enhancing circulating documents.

470
01:29:30.080 --> 01:29:39.239
ADG Predia: They also talk to us about the difficulties and convincing both customers and employees of the benefits of the digitalization.

471
01:29:39.650 --> 01:29:56.080
ADG Predia: they said that competencies in the area of the organization and blockchain are under represented in that banks. so they need to work with cooperation partners and also struggle with employing specialized persons.

472
01:29:56.520 --> 01:30:09.309
ADG Predia: the biggest challenge, they said, was, the implementation of a digital customer process in order to keep up with the offerings of syntax and startups and the area of financial services.

473
01:30:09.350 --> 01:30:23.790
ADG Predia: What at the same time, and showing presents in the region. the necessary technical equipment for all employees is very good. They set up the organization and handling of the social challenges involved could be improved

474
01:30:25.650 --> 01:30:27.340
ADG Predia: regarding co-working.

475
01:30:27.390 --> 01:30:54.079
ADG Predia: So co-written space and cash sharing the problematic was a little different One of the main challenges of this basic iterations with with with the co-working space was to find through to the system means they. They were searching for some software and no service provider that was found that office. They required products. So they had the problem software problem. And the car sharing company, they, they

476
01:30:54.080 --> 01:31:14.630
ADG Predia: process of the vehicle administration was fully digitized. There was no problem but to to digitalize the support processes like documentation. And something like this. This was a challenge challenge to also arise the the background of the rather small size, cooperative and decent time. Decentralized work organization.

477
01:31:17.430 --> 01:31:36.870
ADG Predia: concerning the agriculture trade cooperative. that it can also operate to things. So this is very special case. And they said that the implementation of a crew. Why did you? To the agenda integration of an awareness of It's necessity definitely challenges.

478
01:31:37.230 --> 01:31:45.260
ADG Predia: And they talked about A lack of awareness and the lack of perceived commitment to the topic on the part of the company's management.

479
01:31:45.570 --> 01:32:10.430
ADG Predia: the investment of time, human and monetary resources, and for the education for the purpose of content related, but also cultural knowledge transfer was decided by them. the digitalization of processes is already a step in the banking world, but they struggle with with the fact that many processes are still managed manually in the world. Of course.

480
01:32:10.950 --> 01:32:23.430
ADG Predia: they, with the view of the company size, with different business areas at several locations, the establishment of the central management of the entire business operation generally proves to be a trade challenge 150,

481
01:32:24.210 --> 01:32:30.730
ADG Predia: and they co-operative and breaking up code structures was also a challenge for them.

482
01:32:32.810 --> 01:32:38.860
ADG Predia: Regarding the cooperative education provider. There are problems with the documentation

483
01:32:38.930 --> 01:33:01.820
ADG Predia:  and the members are overwhelmed by the digital transformation of working progress processes. background is their work. They are working often volunteers which have a certain age. And this was a little bit of problem. Here challenge was to try to processes forward at an increase speed without losing the people who have already been involved for years.

484
01:33:01.970 --> 01:33:03.749
ADG Predia: Then the legal challenges

485
01:33:04.180 --> 01:33:18.260
ADG Predia: must be communicated clearly. And there was a lack of moderation amendments, management skills to accompany the digital transformation into the associated professionalization in terms of communication.

486
01:33:19.650 --> 01:33:38.399
ADG Predia: I'm signing the cooperative trading platform, and they said that they needed to explore what already exists on the market and can be useful. The the search for solutions requires a great deal of research, though this takes time, they probably or sometimes don't have

487
01:33:38.410 --> 01:33:47.450
ADG Predia: They talk about the transfer between individual business models and between individual sectors, and that this must take place.

488
01:33:47.660 --> 01:34:08.950
ADG Predia: They really stressed, as can be seen in the previously mentioned points. that they have a lack of time. the greatest challenge is the interface management. and this certation business, so that the individual digital building blocks understand each other and a lean and efficient process emerges

489
01:34:10.040 --> 01:34:28.549
ADG Predia: to more, as you. As as we mentioned the internal communication and everything that concerns the social media. and they said that they needed to digitize cash register systems, to introduce a payment system by apps and to involve the members of the corporate.

490
01:34:29.210 --> 01:34:36.899
ADG Predia: Now we are coming to the serving, the positive and negative effects of the digital digitalization

491
01:34:37.210 --> 01:35:02.159
ADG Predia: mobile working, the introduction of the paper, this office or video counseling, or the use of video conferencing systems that perceived as positive effects. The saving of resources was generally emphasized. These include savings and travel and commuting time for digital meetings as well as the related cost. Savings cost savings also cure at staff, that due to the closure of branches.

492
01:35:02.420 --> 01:35:13.160
ADG Predia: meeting times and work locations were handled. More flexibility. Processes were therefore also accelerated because of digital collaboration, not least because archives were digitized.

493
01:35:13.340 --> 01:35:23.689
ADG Predia: employed. The city's satisfaction increase due to digital competences and mobile working satisfaction made employees more efficient, which also led to lower sick

494
01:35:23.840 --> 01:35:29.889
ADG Predia: the work. Life balance changed to a life work balance. As the connection between family and work was strengthened.

495
01:35:30.140 --> 01:35:36.079
ADG Predia: This increased employer attractiveness and led to strong identification with the company.

496
01:35:36.280 --> 01:35:42.470
ADG Predia: The change process designed through digital meetings also led to an acceleration of decision making processes.

497
01:35:42.690 --> 01:35:56.429
ADG Predia: Communication between managers and employees. Intensified employees were relieved of time consuming routine work, and their personal responsibility increased. In general, people were also pleased that customers would accept the digital offer.

498
01:35:56.700 --> 01:35:58.900
ADG Predia: It's some a curious statement. What's the

499
01:35:58.910 --> 01:36:04.059
ADG Predia: what's the fewer documents were lost in the internal meal as a result of digitalization.

500
01:36:04.760 --> 01:36:15.089
ADG Predia: If we now turn to the negative and negative effects, we can see that these are more or less the flip side of the positive effects, which as in as as a striking inside itself.

501
01:36:15.100 --> 01:36:30.030
ADG Predia: For example, there were coordination problems due to a lack of personal presence, a distancing between branches and a decrease in chief cohesion due to mobile working generally also in an innation effect between employees and employees and

502
01:36:30.750 --> 01:36:42.889
ADG Predia: customers, for example, expected to the competence which some software does not live up to mobile working in turn, led to scheduling conflicts or overload you to too many appointments in a row.

503
01:36:43.430 --> 01:36:56.820
ADG Predia: Questions of data protect. You were ready, as challenging as what it was managing at a distance which could lead to a loss of control for the leaders and online meetings. The feelings for moods and nuances is lost.

504
01:36:57.140 --> 01:37:07.269
ADG Predia: The change in the communication culture was also right, negatively, because in formal communication the office, correct line of communication at the at the coffee machine would disappear.

505
01:37:07.690 --> 01:37:19.559
ADG Predia: Communication at a distance will then lead to the identification, lower retention, and loss of commitment to the company. The result is a decrease in teams. Spirit and a feeling of

506
01:37:20.170 --> 01:37:28.410
ADG Predia: collaboration and creative processes have also become more discouraged through virtual formats and rules of conduct in the digital world of.

507
01:37:28.620 --> 01:37:34.519
ADG Predia: Moreover, joint discussions falls by the wayside. Complex topics cannot be worked through

508
01:37:34.920 --> 01:37:41.520
ADG Predia: personal interest that was criticized. I in the foreground and mobile working, and not the purpose of the work.

509
01:37:42.020 --> 01:37:52.940
ADG Predia: Employees who had been at home for a long time did not want to return to the bank full time, or to to the cooperative. I just wanted to change departments because it was easier to work from home there.

510
01:37:53.390 --> 01:38:07.320
ADG Predia: the digital I he is time consuming and and prone to arrows, if not all documents are scanned. digital deficits were registered in terms of scale, personal as well. Technical infrastructure and high broadcasts.

511
01:38:08.390 --> 01:38:19.199
ADG Predia: So the research project shows that that digitalization refers to new ways of structuring and reflecting society organizations, working areas and community.

512
01:38:19.340 --> 01:38:42.979
ADG Predia: However, it was noticeable that the participant of the workshop will refer to digitalization as a very present challenge. And the real problem which may be due to an organization or to act organizationally digitalization requires a transformation of organization processes and an environment of those who are involved in them or take responsibility or responsibility in the companies.

513
01:38:43.140 --> 01:38:59.009
ADG Predia: as the interviews indicated, there are several ways to experience and deal with digitalization in the cooperative way and intent, but not, we made you to answer the the first question of the research project, and so far as the data collected allow us

514
01:38:59.820 --> 01:39:16.670
ADG Predia: so to answer the question, what needs and requirements to co-operative have with regard to the digital transform my organization. Firstly, cooperative enterprises experience, digitalization as something technical work process are technically supported or even completely digitalized.

515
01:39:16.670 --> 01:39:34.570
ADG Predia: On the one hand, this has consequences for workplace design. Of course, on the other hand, the digitally supported workflow design raises new legal question of data protection for the more interface problems arise on a technical side or questions about specific software to meet the specific need of a company.

516
01:39:34.709 --> 01:39:46.489
ADG Predia: Smaller operators are particularly challenged by this technical, and if they do not have their own deep development department or specialists in their own company who can meet these challenges?

517
01:39:46.559 --> 01:39:53.510
ADG Predia: Therefore it's not just a external experience or head from outside to overcome these challenges.

518
01:39:53.730 --> 01:40:16.329
ADG Predia: irrespective of the size of the organization, the question of successful possibilities of system integration arises which authorizes the question of in sourcing these competencies or building and developing them within the companies, or at least in the cooperative network. So all the demands are software and interface solutions, and the needs are exchange and external advice.

519
01:40:17.260 --> 01:40:18.760
ADG Predia: Seconds

520
01:40:19.730 --> 01:40:33.590
ADG Predia: digitalization is mainly experienced as its own effect in terms of work, restructuring digital workplace design introduces new work locations, Home Office and working hours, as in Chronos working at different locations, becomes possible.

521
01:40:33.719 --> 01:40:59.720
ADG Predia: On the one hand, this raises questions about the acceptance of identification of the employees of the company with the new forms of work. On the other other hand, these effects can also lead to the ident identification with the goals of the company. The decentralization of workplaces is accompanied by a decentralization of areas of responsibility which must be bundled and centralized in a community. K communicative or data based manner.

522
01:40:59.850 --> 01:41:15.540
ADG Predia: Trust in psychological security within team is also important here. These changes can be to friction both small and medium-sized companies which can be specifically addressed in training to enable companies to find solutions to the corresponding problems.

523
01:41:15.629 --> 01:41:43.940
ADG Predia: the path to stuff, to shaving, new phones of relationships between employees and employees, or within the workforce also seems to be in particular need of reflection for managers as restructuring in the organizations of working hours and places of work are also changes, subjective perceptions of commitment and alienation. So the demands are dealing with staff and members and needs external devices and products. Ringing

524
01:41:47.230 --> 01:42:09.779
ADG Predia: search, however, the digitalization also relates to specific issues of process design. Internally, digitalization to the development of new products which might also be implemented with the support of digital technologies for medium-sized companies. The question arises as for how much the organization makes sense for the company's goal, and which any low process it should be retained.

525
01:42:09.780 --> 01:42:24.670
ADG Predia: Externally, companies are confronted with digital processes. For example, Bitcoin, that they must learn to deal with demands, understand and implement it to process design needs internal and external experts as well as training as mentioned before.

526
01:42:24.960 --> 01:42:44.539
ADG Predia: and for the central issue of the to the transformation relate to the involvement of employees and communication with customers. On the one hand, it is about developing and setting up digital forms of communication to reach customers and response to their needs on the other end. It is also about continuing to communicate with them beyond digital platforms, one

527
01:42:44.540 --> 01:42:58.719
ADG Predia: possible platform possibilities. Again and again the question arises as to which forms of communication are acceptable, but not least, it is a matter of being close to the customer. Possibly in order to design new products, together with them.

528
01:42:58.830 --> 01:43:06.090
ADG Predia: demands about digital forms of communication. It needs a development of communication strategies and further training.

529
01:43:07.380 --> 01:43:25.439
ADG Predia: So to just give you one final recognition in summary, it can be said that the demands relate to technologies, employees, process design and customer contract and the needs in terms of solution to the needs related to strategic training. Content. Thank you very much for your attention.

530
01:43:31.230 --> 01:43:45.879
Anna Skripchenko: Thank you very much, also for this insight into the digitization experience of German cooperatives. I open the floor for questions, and we only have 5 min for questions now.

531
01:43:59.280 --> 01:44:01.459
nothing in the room so far.

532
01:44:05.270 --> 01:44:07.619
Marco Jöstingmeier: some in the digital sphere.

533
01:44:13.820 --> 01:44:24.059
Marco Jöstingmeier: but maybe a question for my side is I had the impression that cooperatives in general seem to be quite

534
01:44:24.990 --> 01:44:52.189
Marco Jöstingmeier: satisfied with the technical aspect and the non technical aspect of digitalization. As you mentioned at the beginning of your talk that digitalization is not only a technical process, of course, from a sociological perspective, but only the but even more, the non technical aspect. And my question is, was there the general impression or the general result of your research project, that?

535
01:44:52.480 --> 01:44:59.359
Marco Jöstingmeier: Well, we have the technical infrastructure. But we need Beyond that, we need to

536
01:44:59.590 --> 01:45:16.359
Marco Jöstingmeier: deal with the non technical aspects of of digitalization, which means dealing with the infrastructure which means communication and work design all these aspects you mentioned. And yeah, what? What the results? Maybe just to

537
01:45:17.000 --> 01:45:24.240
Marco Jöstingmeier: bring it on the point, like, we say, I don't have the right the English expression for that.

538
01:45:24.780 --> 01:45:48.830
ADG Predia: this wasn't because the result is, it's it's the technical aspect for Banks, for example, is not that problem. it's more a problem to communicate this technical aspect to the employees and the customers that the communication processes and the restructuring of workspaces. These are challenges. The technical aspect is, is not that

539
01:45:48.980 --> 01:46:11.500
ADG Predia: challenging for the smaller companies? collaborators? There are other challenges to find the right software. They don't have a development team. They're searching for an application scoured as well said to to find the right software But but there's the technical aspect is very important. But for the

540
01:46:11.580 --> 01:46:24.670
ADG Predia: great tech operators. It's small. This the communication and the question of decision making processes. who has? Who is responsible? Who to whom to have a kind of trust.

541
01:46:25.080 --> 01:46:27.480
ADG Predia: especially special. Now.

542
01:46:29.760 --> 01:46:31.900
Marco Jöstingmeier: yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.

543
01:46:34.280 --> 01:47:02.669
Anna Skripchenko: I also have one question. It seemed to me like that the coronavirus pandemic, and the necessity to become more digital brought about some innovation, some unrelated, maybe innovations in some of the cooperatives like new products or new processes. Why, in your opinion.

544
01:47:02.870 --> 01:47:18.820
Anna Skripchenko: it was mit ctl, and related to this external stress, like, why? Because the the digitalization is isn't a new topic in itself. It's it has been around for a while. Why external stress was so necessary. One.

545
01:47:25.170 --> 01:47:43.430
ADG Predia: I think that And as we said, we focus on small and medium-sized enterprises, so especially for the smaller ones and the smaller ones for we can say that Every participant comes from a smaller company. except for the bank

546
01:47:43.450 --> 01:48:00.439
ADG Predia: and the copies of trade. enterprise. So they were really stressed by this external stress because they had an absolutely well, nearly no infrastructure concerning concerning these things prior to the pandemic

547
01:48:00.610 --> 01:48:25.849
ADG Predia: and they the business model or their business models were really threatened. and they They could also have face that, the enter they they couldn't continue working with the enterprise because the pandemic disrupted the business model. So This was really some stress for them. So I think this fast and are brought the necessity of dealing

548
01:48:26.030 --> 01:48:35.980
ADG Predia: with all that could have before seen a long time ago. I absolutely agree with you. in a very yeah, and a very half way for them

549
01:48:37.500 --> 01:48:51.650
ADG Predia: and for the banks. there was another problem. for the corporate cooperative things. everything they do a digit fully digitized to the digitalized bank can do better.

550
01:48:51.670 --> 01:48:54.919
ADG Predia: So From this, from the

551
01:48:54.990 --> 01:49:03.370
ADG Predia: from the business model, with with all what's what it has to do with money? So the problem was to get to to the people.

552
01:49:03.640 --> 01:49:13.210
ADG Predia: and it was during the pandemic a challenge. how to communicate with the people. It is not a not allowed. So They have

553
01:49:13.470 --> 01:49:16.199
ADG Predia: a double stretch if you if you want.

554
01:49:17.160 --> 01:49:17.940
ADG Predia: Yes.

555
01:49:20.480 --> 01:49:26.810
Anna Skripchenko: thank you very much, and we are it at the end of our session.

556
01:49:26.860 --> 01:49:49.720
Anna Skripchenko: And I just we skipped the final discussion because we all they had very nice, meaningful discussion. And we will spare on concluding remarks, I think, every one of us has some great takeaways from this session. and I really enjoyed it. And mark over to you like to say.

557
01:49:49.870 --> 01:49:59.929
Marco Jöstingmeier: I I keep it short. I think it was great to see how the organization is. Sociologist perspective relates to other

558
01:50:00.530 --> 01:50:07.090
Marco Jöstingmeier: sub disciplines of sociology. We had made media sociology of mass media with teams

559
01:50:07.190 --> 01:50:16.659
Marco Jöstingmeier: talk. We had technology Sts with David. And now we had the aspect of common community communal

560
01:50:16.790 --> 01:50:21.919
Marco Jöstingmeier: organizations. And so I think there was a great

561
01:50:22.040 --> 01:50:52.020
Marco Jöstingmeier: he's a virginity on the cases. So thanks very much to all the presentators, and thanks thanks very much to Tim that he took over the in person, but especially thanks, which came a bit as a surprise to Michelle. Who came here and took over the moderating. Do this in the room. And yeah, I hope we hope. No, and not only hope, I promise I we turn the favor in any way

562
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Marco Jöstingmeier: in the future. Thank you very much.

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I'm here.