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you are sharing. Okay? Good afternoon. Again.

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Thank you for being here. Thank you to Andre Megonian from Yasaka for their re election. We have only 2 relations that there are, and problem of times, but I ask you to

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start with the first speech of 2025 means, and then so then it can. We start with our discussion? so, and then we go and is professor Sociology of communication to you all my university in Milan, Italy, and present a paper anti-title at the outer E Chinese, I would to audit Chinese without autocracy, constituent power in the age of COVID-19.

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Thank you, Andrea.

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it's okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I will try to stay. Where is it I have to use this right?

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I no, I will try to stay within 1520, so maybe we can have some debate. Otherwise it will be.

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maybe.

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is there anyone online? He has 3 people.

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Yes, what should they do?

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That's for? So

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you got to check.

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 okay.

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okay? And then

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thank you. Thank you for accepting my

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my paper. I will try to be

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to be short about Italy and

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what authoritarian states. Well,

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for me. It It all began with the with the problem.

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not an idea, not a belief, not an ideology, as

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as Karpoper would say. The identification of a problem is the igniter of scientific investigation. The problem for me as a sociologist cannot be, is not

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the sarscope to outbreak per se what I can do as a sociologist is to study the measures which have been put in place in response to the emergency, and what this emergency measure

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can tell us about the state of

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democratic Western countries.

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So the first thing I tried to do is to work on the covid regulation in Italy, which, believe me it is simply impossible. No way

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in

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in Italy we have, like, I think, everywhere, a sort of some official counters. The one I use is open policy, which is a commonly used repository. But if you try to understand how many rules have been released related to COVID-19, this is basically impossible. No way

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too many. It takes forever. so I could do it only for the first 70 months until mid April 2020 22. Sorry, that's a mistake and

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The result is quite impressive. The number of national laws is 929,

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some of those laws, and both, as we will have to say

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deliberations with the power of law, which is not the same, had to go through the different approval processes, for instance, in Italy. The government carries a decree, and after that the decree has to be converted by the Parliament into an ordinary law, so the gross, the real, and during this process the look and the text can be changed and amended, so that in the end it's more than 12,

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100. Then you have the

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regional laws and deliberations as the region do have a competence in the matter of public health. In Italy. According to these sorts, we had 810 and 36

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orders during the first 5 months of the pandemic.

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A

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speaking of problems, I think we got one

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a.

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as we know, as we know.

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ignorance here is not admitted. How this is one of the main principles of the rule of law. How is it in in English? Low ignorance is not admitted. It's not. It is not excuse.

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You cannot stand up in court and say they didn't tell me anything about this rule.

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I didn't know that this wasn't allowed.

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And we do have a problem because we don't. Even we do not even know how many rules have been released about COVID-19. We know that the number in the thousands.

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So if you don't even know how many laws are there, how can one not be ignorant atom or abstract level, which is what I care about in terms of social theory.

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How about the Social contract between the State

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and the citizen? Is it still in place.

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or we are talking about something else. If you are not put in the position of knowing what is allowed and what is not.

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Aloud.

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I will. Speaking of debate, I will anticipate. possible reply.

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The most common answer that I have received in these 3 years is basically as follows.

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yes, you are right. It's some S, it's a total disorder. There's no way you can cope with this complexity. But still, the point is that well, it was an emergency situation. So basically, after all, policymakers are humans, and therefore they panicked. They didn't know what to do.

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They were unprepared in. So they kept changing the rules

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overnight every day desperately looking for a solution.

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This is a common explanation, so that in so doing they ended up regulating things at such grammar level that, to take a real example for those who are not Italian.

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At some point we had the permission of buying ice creams.

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Thank you, sire.

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We could buy ice cream, not any kind of ice cream.

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The one in the plastic.

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the one with the biscuit at its basis was not allowed

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in the supermarkets for very long we could buy well, some set of items, some other shelves were restricted.

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Same place, same people, same moment

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on our planes. This is my favorite example on our planes. We could use the overhead compartments to store the language.

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not the clothes.

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So for 2 years in winter time we had to trouble with the court on our knees, because that was the law

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which was absolutely silly

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without any possible motivation.

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And so, speaking of the well, of the replies that I usually received about that. The point is, well, come on, it's a it's a mess. They were panicking. They were unprepared. A blob, by the way, as if being unprepared, could be an excuse for decision makers, one in brackets.

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But

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I don't think so.

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I don't think so. I think that we should not consider these in negative terms as the lack of something

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the like. The absence of the pandemic plan, which is a well discussed, the issue in Italy, the lack of coordination, the lack of I don't know the lack of companies. It was in negative terms what I think that we should consider these in positive terms as the exercise as a very of a very specific form of State

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upstate power. Yes, that's ridiculous. The ice cream, the ice cream story is ridiculous. Come on, it's too weird to be taken. Or seriously. Yes.

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this ridiculous thing would remind us of what Michel Foucos stated

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in a Brazilian lecture in Rio de Janeiro, if I remember well, in 1,975 well.

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mid seventys about the grotesque nature of power

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that's fucking, speaking not me. Power can be. Grotesque. Power can be ridiculous. Power can be shabby. Power can be the the way the the way we see it. But that's fucking.

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This grotesque nature has not to be mistaken for its weakness. It is the very opposite of that.

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The grotesque nature of power, according to focal, is power at its maximum strength, because even in those cases there is nothing you can do.

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even when power is emoded by by clearly unfit people like it was in Italy during the the earth crisis, the sanitary crisis, even when it is represented by grotesque figures, characters, and blah blah. There is nothing you can do.

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This is power at its maximum

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 power is the authority of telling you that you can put there the only you cannot put their the

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because these

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would spread an infectious this year.

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unlike putting it in the same place in the same moment at rolling. That's power, pure power.

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So I think that we should consider all these regulations in positive rather than negative.

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And another aspect of that. This is the second part of my of my speech. Obviously the the

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the absurd number of regressions comes as a consequence of the number of institutions and bodies that were in charge

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for those regulations.

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and I found 38 different institutions able, capable of releasing

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laws, or, as we should say.

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deliberations with the power of law, which is not the same, and I will get back to this at the very end

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at the very end. What we did discover, for instance, is that in some cases we have 2 different bodies, basically doing the very same thing.

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For instance, I discovered that we have the Iss Italian National Institute of Belt, and then we have the National Health Council.

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Those are 2 bodies appointed by the Government.

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They both report to the Government. They are well! A scientific committee in charge as a consultant body for health issues. Why should we have to?

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Which is not to?

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Because in because in emergency times, then, there is the severe protection which is a sort of Italian version of the National Guard for the non Italians.

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Then, then, after the declaration of the state of the emergency which shouldn't exist, because in the Italian constitution there is no such a thing of the state of the emergency, but it does exist. We had the the Commissioner for the emergency, that is, for, and then the Government also appointed the so-called Scientific Technical Committee.

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which is a bunch of

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alleged experts in the field of public health by your statistics, epidemiology, the very same as the other 2,

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and then there is a very mysterious thing. Nobody knows. What is it? What what is it which which is called the cabinet in a gym. Well.

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emergency bodies doing the same thing

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along with the Health Ministry and along with the regions which have a clear competence in the field of public health.

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Why do we have?

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This is an the regions of totalitarianism. Chapter 12.

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All the levels of the administrative machine of the Third Reich were subject to a curious duplication of

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offices.

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This duplication, inherent clearly brings an eye to Ernest Frankel and his theory of the dual state which is possible one of the best analysis of the and Nazi Germany as a as as an institutional infrastructure.

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but why?

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We have to.

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the first time sort of would rely on the classical ornate and the it in. If you have to, you can put one against the other, you can make one control the other. What that's okay.

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Aren't is way too clever for that.

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In the same chapter, after a few pages it says that in the end the Doble duplication is the tip of the iceberg, is the visible part

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of a broader process, which is the multiplication of bodies in charge of vital decision. I will quote again from chapter 12, is fluctuating. Yerachi, with its constant addition of new layers and shifts. In

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what do it?

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At some point she says, What is typical of of totalitarianism is an intentional lack of structure.

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Why, this is a relevant, in my opinion, and I'm I'm almost done so, especially for one thing because Italy is not on an autocracy. Italy is a democratic country. We have the elections. We don't have. Add it to that. That that's that's obvious. So

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if we go back to Weber, the kind of power we are talking about is the legal, rational, based obviously on the principle of bureaucracy, that is, bureaucratic state.

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Still, this is not enough, because in Weber a bureaucracy is basically about

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a conservative force

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which is about repetition, sameness, application of the very same standards and procedures. I think that if I remember well, we

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a diverse words, for that is the the necessary predictability of what happens. This is the very opposite. This is the very opposite.

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It's a bureaucracy which does exactly the opposite thing.

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making things unpredictable, impossible to understand storming

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the social body and

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destabilizing people's life in negative terms, it will be lack of coordination. I don't think we have to consider this in terms of lack of coordination.

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Once again, the objection usually is a command they panicked. They didn't know what we're doing. They blah blah blah blah! What if.

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indeed they perfectly knew what they were doing.

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which kind of society in terms of the relation between state and citizens are we talking about?

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If I have 2 min? Very, the very last point about this, I was saying.

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we are talking about lose.

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I don't know. The order I was mentioning before. The order is a direct in in in Italian, in Italian we call it ordinance. An order means it's a deliberation by a single decision maker which has the power of law. Is it a law.

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for instance, this, this is fun. At some point things were so difficult to understand that health officers and men of the government told us this is the last. This is the last, the last.in this in this list, so does well. We will publish the answers and the explanation of what you can do in the FAQ section of the government website.

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At some point there was this ruler. Yes. Now, that's okay. We are entering in the so called the phase 2. So now you can meet people. Yes, but you can only meet people you really care about. Come on, what is that?

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What are we talking about?

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I will put, we will put this on the F. A. Q's, which means that the of the sources is totally twisted and no longer exists.

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This basically means one thing.

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some

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orders, a fake use. The

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the most famous word for it in Italy is Dpcm. Which is the decree of the Prime Minister, the President of the Council of Minister. Well, according to the law, the diploma is an implementation degree, which means can only precise the way a law will be applied and implemented.

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It's not a sublime.

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So this means that in some cases we have the law which no longer exists. It's a sort of empty shell, for instance, in the Constitution there is no such thing as the emergency state. How is we have the emergency state?

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And, on the other hand, we have the very opposite.

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At the top of the erosion sources we have things that are not

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laws. I will finish

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with

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George Roganman's state of exception. The book he brought in 2,003 in the aftermath of 9 11. From a technical standpoint the specific contribution of the state of the emergency is less the confusion of powers, which means the government is making the laws that by means of decrease, and it shouldn't be that way. Yes, but

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it is the separation of force of law from the law defines a state of law in which, on the one hand, the norm is in force, but it is not applied.

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and in the other

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acts that do not have the value of law acquire its force. That is

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a gamble, and that is the end for the moment.

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Thank you.

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This.

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Thank you. And for your presentation. Now we have a next presentation. Flamiyasaka. She is a professor at the Sapienza University of Rome in political sociology, and she, yeah. Her paper is entitled The Political Leader in pandemic and post-pandemic Time, inclusive Democrats and resurgent out auditorianism.

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An analysis of the political discuss of Bangladesh and Victor Orban. Thank you, Flamy, at the floor issue

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because we worked together a few months ago. But anyhow, let's present this. This is a a paper that presents the outcome of a research project that is called Premise, a project of the Research of National Interest funded by the Ministry of Education in Italy. The idea, then, was to try to understand

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how Populist and non-populist leaders had different political cultures, and especially in different political leadership styles, and then the pandemic hit the world, and it has changed a little bit. Our project and what we have done it has been to focus on how the different leaders around the world

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managed to represent the pandemic, and how they narrated it as well. In this doing we tried to look at also at the political culture that was beneath it, whether they were being Populist and authoritarians, or being democratic and more pro institutions. So we were about to publish a book that's about to come out in the next few weeks on this.

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we have analyzed 13 world leaders. the national pi of the project was. But with on on Populism whereas our unit where I was the associate investigator focused on the pandemic generation by the world leaders. We did analyze both European and non European leaders.

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By analyzing their statements, and how they talked about the pandemic in this paper we focus on Victor Orban, and we analyzed 18 statements on the Coronavirus and Angela Merkel, 23 statements on Coronavirus. They, of course, represent 2 opposite opposite leadership. We saw in this doing populism versus anti-populism.

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European European pro European, and of course, against the sovereignty of Ukraine and male versus female leadership as well. The comparison between the 2 narrative strategies adopted by the German Chancellor and the Hungarian Prime Minister

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has has allowed us to observe how the issue of the rule of law has been addressed by those 2 opposite styles of political leadership, the female, institutional and pro-european one on the one side and the match of Populist and anti-european one on the other. Our representation today will focus on how these 2 opposite political narratives have framed the government of a state of emergency and the perspective of a democratic constitution.

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Of course, opposite political narratives result in opposite framing of democracy itself, and most of all on the rule of role under the state of emergency.

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And we have more specifically analyzed 3 variables. We have taken in 3 variables into consideration the rule of law and state of emergency. The national powers and European institutions and government and political pluralism.

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if we look at the rule of law and state of emergency, urban has to use the pandemic crisis in order to enhance some of his traits. Of his political leadership.

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it constituted the pandemic. We can say that it has constituted For Orban a political opportunity he can exploit the health emergency situation to justify an illiberal authoritarian turn to his own government action. There were 2 institutional moments in Orban's response to the pandemic that led to the overcoming of the boundaries of the normal rules of law. These are Urban's own words, by the way.

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they were the proclamation, and also the proclamation of the state of danger in on the eleventh of March, and the approval by the Parliament of the so-called Authorization Act on the thirteenth of March 2020 were speaking

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and on the sixteenth of June 2020 the state of emergency was lifted. However, as Frederick Norman Foundation rightly argues at the same time as the emergency was left it. A Parliament also voted in favor of a draft law on a new so-called state of medical emergency. According to this bill, the Government would be able to govern by decree again, in such a case, with even less control than before. This is, you know, a wordx theoretical friend of what's happening

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there in those days.

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The first time Auburn addresses the issue in March 13, broadcast of good morning. Hungary, the Prime Minister seem to want to reassure the public, almost distancing himself from an outside democracy situation. Because that's how he calls it. This situation requires, you know us to think outside democracy, because this is an outside democracy situation. This is somewhere between. But this time he he's cautious about it. On the thirteenth of March.

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He says that this is somewhere between peacetime democracy and a state of war. On this we must proceed with caution. It's no accident that civilized countries rarely resort to it. But of course his attitude didn't last long.

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And so how times goes by? We see that the enhancement of the constitutional instrument of the state of danger prevails in all barns, communication, doubts, and hesitations seem to disappear. The state of danger gives, or ban the power to enact these measures rapidly and without debate.

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and as a result, the community of Hungarians in a community is a community in a state of defense. That's how he frames it, and how he calls it on March 20,

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acting within the boundaries of the normal rules of law, would have made it impossible to

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set up an effective strategy for the defense of the Hungarian people. When, on March 30, the Parliament adopted the Act 12 on 2020 of the containment of the Coronavirus, the constitutional and provisional exception becomes the norm, guaranteeing, according to the Hungarian Helsinki Committee, a Cal Plounge mandate without a sunset cause to rule by decree.

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and also

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coming to the other variable government and political pluralism. Of course, the result of all this. It's an a liberal turn, and Orban's political discourse shows signs of impatience with the Parliament. The Parliament is something that he feels, it entangles his own leadership, and the necessity to be, you know, timely and decisive on, on the pandemic crisis.

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and also he shows signs of impatience towards the political parties and the opposition.

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There are some examples here that you can see, he's impatient towards the Parliament when he says the time has come for dissent and dispute to be replaced by joint action. This is what I ask from all of us. And this is what I will ask my fellow members of Parliament this afternoon, meaning you shut up this afternoon. We have to discuss serious things, and I'm the leader, and I decide

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impatient towards political parties. I would like to ask the political party for restraint, as people's protection is not a political issue, and certainly not a political issue, meaning it's a leadership and government issue.

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Impatient towards the opposition. I will never abandon the hope that one day. The opposition will also realise that this is not the time for party political debates, and that we should unite our forces. This is A April 3,

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and lastly, we have the third variable that we have taken into account the national powers and the European institutions. Political discussions outside the national borders displease the hunger in leaders. He is a displeased leader when he speaks about them at least as much as he is displeased by internal debates. The European Union is represented as an assembly of pedantic officials who pontificate on irrelevant theoretical issues and waste urban and Hungarians time.

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So you can you see here an example? The unit pickers. So I plainly told the EU knit pickers. That's how he calls them that this is not the time to come to me pontificating about all sorts of no doubt fascinating legal and theoretical questions.

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So urban exploits, the virus to focus on the ideological conflict of sovereignism and versus Europeanism into the playing field of the fight against

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this is also a way not to lose control of the narrative, and to continue to preside over the strongholds of this populistic communication.

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Even

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in the management of the pandemic Russell's bureaucrats try to hinder a government action that corresponds perfectly to the will of the Hungarian people. That's what he says the dispute urban clarifies is not about democracy, democracy, but about Empire Empire forcing the limit. So I think he's still forcing the limits here, as you can see of democracy, and he thinks that institutions, European institutions are forcing his hand, but

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because they resemble an empire. So to explain the crisis, to revive an exclusionary sovereign nationalist sentimentality. Describe the 3 main axes of the Liberal term that Taliban has tried to impose on Hungarian pandemic during the pandemic. We can say that

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Orban has admittedly forced the boundaries of the rule of law in order to defend the nation, he has imposed a strong nationalistic framing of the political medical situation, and lastly, not surprisingly, in doing so, he has proven to be impatient with political pluralism.

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and on the opposite side we find a leader like Angela Merkel, who is the total opposite of this style of leadership and of this type of political culture, he so attitude her attitude towards democracy, pluralism and European institutions is completely different.

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The narrative we found in the 23 speeches given by Angela Merkel during the first wave of COVID-19 is, of course, completely different. Orban's aggressive Populist rhetoric is contrasted by the reassuring Institutional Storage Island, proposed by the German Chancellor, and we called her style of Leadership. The institutional guarantor. Starting from the way in which the German leader problematizes the relationship between state of emergency and the rule of road. That's a completely different story than the one that we've seen so far.

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 she tells us right away what open democracy is about. I want to tell you what guides me as Federal Chancellor and all my colleagues in the Federal Government. In this situation this is part of what open democracy is about that we make transparent political decisions, and that we explain them, that we justify and communicate them.

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This is something that she reminds us all the time that democratic politics is like this. It's transparent. It's about the explanation. But it's also about taking responsibility and about talking to the people to explain what is happening. So they have to communicate.

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They have to communicate their actions as best as they can, so that people are able to understand them.

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and also when she comes to restrictions on fundamental rights. She says, in every time she has the occasion, that she's aware she she is actually restriction for restricting some fundamental rights. But she says that this is a necessary decision. This is temporary, it's vital, it's transparent and understandable, and it is justified.

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 she also admits that this is an imposition on democracy. The key expression used by Angela Merkel on 2 different occasions to explain the structural pressure that the government of the pandemic imposes on democracy is the

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the pandemic causes an imposition on democracy. That's what it means. Merkel recognises the pressure, the imposition that rests on the shoulders of the German democratic system, but she also immediately identifies the conditions which, despite the tension exerted, allow open democracy to resist. To that imposition.

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Institutional communication has, as mentioned, a determining role. Restrictions are only acceptable and tolerable if their reasons are transparent and understandable. But these restrictions are compatible provisionally with democracy only if their application is accompanied by respect for the checks and balances that define a democratic system.

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Therefore, only if criticism and dissent are not only required, but are also encouraged. If political pluralism is guaranteed. Thanks to the work of a free press, thanks to the counterweight set up by the Federal guarantees, and thanks to the mutual trust that characterizes relationship between government and Parliament, then we can say that democracy can resist this pressure.

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and also the other variable government and political pluralism. We have just seen how America's narrative recognizes the importance and the role of political pluralism in any democracy. And just for another set of examples, we can see that the Federation abandoned the Parliament are always present in her discourses. We have to act in a coordinated manner at all levels.

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Can you see how different this narration is from that of urban Iran, was impatient with all the tangles and entanglement coming from pluralism, from the opposition from Parliament and from the European institution. Here is quite the contrary, I would like to thank the Federal States that we have all followed through with the common policy we decided on, so they are always there. The decision is a democratic one.

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I think the Federation and the Lander are in agreement on this, and this is also the reflection in our reflected in our decision. All in all, we had a very constructive decision and discussion. I thank you very much for the fact that the German Parliament, as well as the Federal Council, under difficult circumstances, has consulted and decided on the legal measure extremely quickly.

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and also you can see the third variable national powers and European institutions, and again totally antithetical than the Hungarian model is Merkel's representation of the relationship between national government and European institutions. On the 20 third of April, after discussing the economic impact of the Coronavirus pandemic with the EU heads of states and government. Merkel describes the relations

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within the European Union as marked by a spirit of cooperation animated by amicable discussions and oriented towards common decisions.

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Mercury then recognises an explicit equivalence between the interests of Germany and the interest of the European Union.

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and you can see an example here. The European Council has just met in a spirit of cooperation. The atmosphere was very good. Of course everyone presented things from their own point of view, but it was a very amicable discussion. I want to state very clearly that a common response of this kind is also in Germany's interest.

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So for the German state, moving in full agreement with Europe, is not just an imperative of solidarity. It is also an imperative of self-interest. Unlike Orban, Mercury, gives no room for nationalistic rhetoric, where not only thinking of ourselves, not only thinking in national terms, and she never plays the card of a patriotic nationalism to create consensus within the German population to her political action, or to increase her capacity to persuade citizens to follow them. Posted rule.

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so Germany will only do well in the long run. If Europe does well, as she says, it is not just an imperative of solidarity, it is also an imperative of self-interest. She says, on April 20, we are not only thinking of ourselves, of national terms.

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so the conclusions are, you can see, while it was critically, I think, so far that even from our rhetorical point of view, urban tries to exploit the pandemic as an opportunity to delegitimize the established institutions of liberal democracy, and thus to justify his attempt to go beyond the unusual limits of the rule of law.

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The Hungarian leader, in the face of the Coronavirus emergency postulates that the need to come to balance a deficit in the performance of the democratic decision, making process due to its complexity and length

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with a certain degree, or democratic deficit.

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i. E. With weaker levels of democracy, in order to make the system more performative, freeing it from the burden of the rule of law.

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and of course we have seen

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that

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in America's representation it is the total opposite. She refuses to act. Within this polarisation. The German leader responds to the pressure that the pandemic has imposed on democracy by enhancing the resilience of the democratic structures.

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The main elements of Parliament and parliamentary democracy are not conceded burdens on political action. Rather, they represent the fundamental political resources that allow the system to react with the flexibility that is required. And that's what she says, we were able to adopt all these legal measures quickly, and with an overwhelming majority our parliamentary democracy is strong. It is able to perform, and is extremely fast in times of Christ.

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So it's the total contrary. She enhances the characteristic of democracy and of pluralism and of the democratic institutions, thanks them all the time, and reminds that they have been vital for managing the crisis. So I think this is a very clear, all the synthetic picture of how the 2 opposite leaders have managed the pandemic and recounted it. Thank you very much for your attention.

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Thank you, Flamina, for your presentation. So

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we have a lot of time if someone in the public in the audience wanted to ask something about one, or about the 2 papers present presented today.

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and

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perhaps can I to start with a question I know very well at the work of from Nasaka, the research on the

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together.

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So I know also the the work of Andrea, and we have many attention to to speak to, to, to discuss about this topic with you. I have a only 2 question for you The first one is, if you can tell us something about space and time in a comparative logic.

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 if the pandemic is ended, or is or we are in another stage of the

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the

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the, your analysis

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for the first amount of the Coronavirus emergency. Do you think that is today.

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Yet the actual and the same question on the taking consideration the space variable you have during the the relation you have to speak on about the Italian case in the abst that you make reference also to other countries like France, Germany, and great breed and corruption. I remember all 150.

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This

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intentional

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political in position, that you have. Analyze it. In Italy you

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can find it, can look and find it with the same characters in this other country, European or not European.

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The last question is, when you do you

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start saying they they

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and so

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 They know what they was doing what they were doing. My simple question is, who is they?

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Not? That you see?

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Oh.

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well, no, no, no! The the the the that was not not really proper the way the the way I I phrased it. Obviously

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the the the the usual reply to me is, they didn't know what to. I was joking on that on that statement they didn't know what they were doing. I I I I don't think that there is someone that there is a sort of up, a pop and master. I think that we are talking about, about, about about processes. As Flamenia was showing a different and different different different different solutions were actually possible

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in in in front of this, and not all state for for what I see things. It it was way more similar to Hungary than to Germany. For instance, if you, if you want my position on that.

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and

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as to the time dimension, it's it's fun, because I I don't know. Honestly, I think that the pandemic is over. No, according to the the Wh. Oh, no, I think so.

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I both by Jack and

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yes, a emergency state is not. We have 4 in Italy we have 4

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American, 2 States.

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which is fine. sorry

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members.

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loose? Yes, 929. No, I mean, the the emergency States means that we have the emergency state for the Ukrainian invasion. Well, Ukraine, if I remember well, it's 2,000 kilometers far away. But we have the emergency state. We have the emergency state for the so-called migration crisis. So we had.

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the we have the state of emergency for that. That's fun for the known Italians. This is very fun. We have 2 emergency states, and in some regions like in Amelia, Romania, and they are working. At the same time there is a Commissioner to the emergency for the drought, because it's not raining enough.

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and at the same time there is the Commissioner to the flooding, because it's raining too much. Yes, and they they are both there. They are both there.

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This is one yeah

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question in the other. Germany.

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Honestly, honestly, I don't know. I I I didn't study it.

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I couldn't know. I don't know.

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Flaming now as as Amir kind of carrying as one thing, the the statements you have, you have studied, they they are all from the first wave for the first month a March, April 2020, because Merkel is told to have perfectly managed the first wave while making the mistakes, and then the next year. But you you didn't study that

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all right.

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and we've had all the statements translated. We've had them from India, Russia, China, the Us. Brazil, Spain, France, England, and Italy.

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And

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you can see how the political leadership followed very, very different political cultures, and of course that was the pandemic showed it showed it to us in a clearer way. And you know, it's as if it condensed their political culture and made it more clear for all.

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Okay.

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it's about we. We we finished the book

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and just the European analysis, and it's going to be published that it just sent me the the cover to for approval to yesterday with Palgrave. Yeah.

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And we have to still do the rest of the world in the next few months.

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But it was very interesting, because if you we compared, I mean, I must say, that look. I worked for a more

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for focusing more on Orban, and I work more on Angela Merkel, but also with another colleague who's not here. She's a postdoc. It's just called Donate la Silva, and we've worked also on the great difference between macho Populism like, if you look at trump, if you look at Trump. You can see, for example, the way he wanted to show he could. He was mainly enough to beat

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the Covid out of the country.

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and of course he also turned the narration towards our friends and enemies. So he started a narrative war against China, and he started to call the Covid, the Kung Fu, the Kung fu.

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you know, like flu in in English. He called it the China virus very often, but what I thought was funny, because, of course it was, you know, made up on purpose was the Kung Fu, because, of course, Kung Fu. I don't even know if it's Chinese it could not be.

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but you know it's evocative of the faraway Eastern culture. Of course Kung Fu is actually quite quite a fine, but it shows you how strongly he took a take on it, and of course, while showing off a muscular attitude toward the covet.

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In the meantime he was also showing the little respect he had for not only for institutions on political institutions and democracy and pluralism, but also for his scientific adviser. Maybe you have followed the the story between him and Dr. Fauci, which has been on display.

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you know, causing various kinds of comments around the world. And similarly, though you find put in

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Putin, had a very similar attitude to to the Covid, very mainly very muscular and

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very decide not to. She's only sounds so considerable, you know, showing off a great capacity of decision from one man only who is the leader.

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Okay.

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thank you very much for your answer. There is another question in the audience.

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nothing good upset.

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There is some someone online and not so if there aren't a question, I another time thanks Andrei Flamenia for your election, thanks to you in the audience for has been with us, and have a good night.