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On the positive site, do you? That correctly

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on the positive side this gives each presenter 20 min, maybe even up to a little bit over in, and we'll still have enough time for 30 min for a discussion at the end. So

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without further ado, we have Dana Kornberg from Uc. Santa Barbara discussing transactional pathways

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to see?

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Okay?

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Possible.

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Okay, I'm gonna I'll just like this. Okay?

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Oh, no, that's okay. It's gonna do it that way. All right. Thank you. Everyone for being here. Thank you so much to Aaron for organizing this, for giving me the opportunity to

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lift up this concept from economic anthropology that I've been. It's kind of been like a pet interest for a while, but I really only bothered my graduate students with it

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so far helping them read this book and then try to discuss it with me. So I I very much look forward to hearing what other people in the room think about it, and I also wanted to thank you for really being such a a phenomenal leader for the Rc. To and making this feel like such a warm and welcoming space to be in for the duration of the conference.

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so yeah. So I'm Dana Kornberg. I am a professor sociology, assistant Professor of Sociology at Uc. Santa Barbara, and I'll be talking about transactional pathways, which is a concept that has been was invented by economic anthropologist, Jane Geyer.

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It was really fleshed out in her book. Marginal gains in 2,005, and I lift up this concept because it is the culmination of longer standing trajectories within economic anthropology that I think sociology would stand to learn quite a bit from.

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So to start off. What are some of the questions that I have? So? what? How might economic sociologists leverage existing insights about cultural and institutional multiplicity with thick historicized accounts of how economic processes generate social hierarchies, such as under systems of racial capitalism. So basically acknowledging that, you know, including many of us here in this room, we're engaging in a lot of institutional

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work that really takes seriously culture, morality, valuation, etc. And what would it look like to be able to link some of that work with a consideration of hierarchy, race cast, etc. That's getting explicit attention by scholars and activists who are interested in racial capitalism in particular. But other other systems as well.

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Another question, how can we better trace those processes? The processes through which dominant social groups claim wealth and generate these durable forms of social hierarchy.

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And finally, how might those processes and hierarchies be subverted or reconfigured? I think these are some opening questions that I invite in the concept. And I think also speak to some of the existing key strengths that economic sociology has.

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one of the key arguments here is that economic sociology needs economic anthropology. and hopefully, some of you in the room will agree with me, or I know some of you certainly do, because many of us in this space at least, are working more on the margins than might be typical at an Asa meeting, for example. so it's a perfect audience to weigh in on this, and let me know what you think. But basically, I am coming from the

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a place where economic sociology has been relatively inattentive to issues of oppression, identity, and social status of various kinds. And these are arguments that have been powerfully put forward by Nina Ben Doug and Victoria Reyes. In recent pieces, where they talk about what the some of the causes and consequences of this are, and in addition, I should say Hirschman and garbs who write about the need to bring in the study of race and racism into economic sociology.

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I think beyond this, economic sociology has really tended to cleave off the modern and the Western right. So to really focus on those contexts, those are terms that are used in Granavetter 85, directly and

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importantly, without considering the colonial histories of those very spaces and their segregated and racist presence right? And that's something that we can learn by looking at post colonial theories and the ways that those have been brought into sociology by Raymond Connell. If I got to see in person at this conference, and Julie, and go, for example, amongst others.

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in contrast to economic sociology, which is especially with the new economic sociology. economic anthropology has long-centered questions of social status with a focus on indigenity, racial and ethnic hierarchy and processes of colonization.

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And so what I'm arguing is basically that there's a need to see both sides of the coin here. It's not just a matter of saying we need to attend to other parts of the world, or that there's something missing. It's it's deeper than that it's like if we take relational. a relational approach to economic sociology. Seriously, then, we need to understand where power is located and how it structures institutions across the board.

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Okay, so what are transactional pathways? I have 2,004 as the date here 2,004, 2,005, I think there were 2 different, probably a hardcover paper back addition. I'm going to define it with these terms that are I think, still pretty abstract, and then hopefully, it'll become clear as I move through the next couple of slides. So Gyre defines transactional pathways as the moving flow across a multiplicity of spatio hierarchical thresholds which each offer the possibility of gain.

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So you can see here it's a process. There's attention to multiplicity, and I would say, institutional value, multiplicity, and that where those meet are these thresholds which I'll talk more about, and that the hierarchy is organised according to possibilities and the impossibility of gains. So thinking about not only profits, incomes, wealth, but gain as a kind of broader concept.

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Another way that she defines. It is an open set of directional transactions that work stepwise towards the constitution of stores of value that have greater longevity and security than currencies themselves. And so from this we can see that when we are thinking about stores of value in and transactions, we're talking about objects. We're talking about.

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the ways that the ways that currencies themselves cohere into particular objects and forms of wealth accumulation.

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Again, this might make more sense as I talk through this a little bit more. Okay? Why the focus on transactional pathways. As I've already said, I think this usefully connects a lot of different work in economic anthropology, and I think that that is useful for economic sociologists to engage with more deeply.

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in particular, transactional pathways draw on the kind of base laid by Malinowski, and most in the twenties who Classically laid out the ways that transactions

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cohere to uphold a firm or challenged forms of status. So Malinowski, in his original fieldwork, which I got to see actually some of his collection at the Museum here. Right? Yeah. They have some artifacts that were collected by Malinowski, and images that were taken by him. And then most he was writing, based on Malinowski and others work

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to talk about the how transactions specifically the cooling, the potlage right like how these, how these are intimately linked with forms of social social status.

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And this this interest or this approach in as Perry and Block laid out in 1,989 connect short term economic exchange. So transactions that are happening in everyday life, whether it be the cooler ring or the purchase of a a bottle of water right? Whether it's like Costco water or Fiji water, right? Like the different ways that we transact. And

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in everyday life connects those short-term economic exchanges to long-term social reproduction, and puts that all into a historical perspective, so that we don't just look at it as a synchronic moment of exchange. But really think about the the institutional. linear deals leading up to it.

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yeah. More generally, you have to invoke Polani because he is this key lynch fan, right? Not only between economic anthropology and sociology, and again, in sociology, we tend to read the great transformation. We don't engage as much with his work.

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prior to that. But he told us, you know the market cannot be superseded as a general frame of reference unless the social sciences succeed in developing a wider frame of reference to which the market itself is referable. And so I think transactional pathways can be a useful way of framing those institutions and moments

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of potential gain and status accumulation. And this all leads to the question that I think transactional pathways can help us to address more concretely which pathways are accessible or foreclosed for diverse social groups to accumulate, value and improve their social status.

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All right. So what I'm going to do now is just kind of like talk a little bit more about the concept. And then I have a couple of examples that I'm going to that I'm going to discuss.

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relatively, briefly.

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So, before we talk about getting to talk more about transactional pathways is built on this idea of spheres of exchange. I kind of want to treat everyone like my classroom and be like. How many of us are familiar with spheres of exchange? Because I don't know. I mean, I know that you know many of us have engaged with this work, but as someone who is trained in economic sociology, I mean, I just had to go off and kind of read this all on my own, you know. So. But I'm also trained in the United States. So.

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that's a particular location for this. But basically spheres of exchange is this theory put together in 1,955 by Paul Bohannon, who's looking at the Tiv in North Northern Nigeria.

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and charts out the the ways that they're exchanging goods in this indigenous context. And so he starts off by, let me see one thing. Yeah. So the and and and charts how those goods are are mapped onto a hierarchical.

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a set of categories which are morally bound, 1,955, a pretty structuralist type of analysis. And so he traces 3 different categories. For this there's locally produced goods which include subsistence items, food utensils, tools, raw materials.

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things that can be made from things that are being grown locally in this context. And he calls this a conveyance. So when there's trade within those spheres, you're trading yams for, for me, for example, or for any other type of food item as just a pretty, insignificant, insignificant, everyday aspect of everyday life. There are goods that don't accrue status. They're just needed in order to reproduce basic basic everyday life.

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The second and third categories are a bit different. So we have prestige goods which include cloth slaves in this context, brass cattle, so items that that provide capital for people who who have access to them, and then at the very top

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the rights and people women in marriage. So the actual exchange of transaction during a marriage which is the most important moment in this context, where people can acquire or lose status.

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And so when there's a trade between those different spheres. That's what was called a conversion and that conversion is only possible because there is an overlap. There's a possibility for those things to be exchanged right if there's a hard line. So, for example, in in a marriage context, where there's a dowry being paid, the accumulation of cattle can be exchanged for a a good marriage for a high status. Marriage? Right? And so it's it's only the ability or only the presence of

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those different institutions working in tandem and having blurred moral boundaries between them that allow for the conversion and the upgradement in the potential upgradement and status.

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Okay. so Gyer comes in with transactional pathways by opening up this structuralist model and showing how it is actually rooted in trade pathways. So it's not just a so you know, a singular hierarchy, and there are people out. I work in India which I'll give an example from in a minute minute. So there were anthropologists like Mcmurray, who are tracing food transactions in a similar, very structuralist way. And so what this does is open up

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those categories to show that it wasn't just that, you know, within one context, you're getting cloth, and you're trading that for brass and accumulating cattle to then, you know, to have a more successful or higher status marriage. But, in fact, all this was dependent on contact with other With other groups within the region.

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And so So Gyer tells us, instead of seeing those barriers between categories. Rather, what we see is that there are institutions that facilitate asymmetrical exchanges across value registers right, and so

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with brass brass rods could only be exchanged with traders to the south, and they wanted them And had firearms together, and it had firearms to offer in return. Cattle were then sent northward in order to secure favorable marriage arrangements.

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and so so again, so this is connecting different institutions to different social groups and different access and access to different forms of material wealth.

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The points where these institutions meet, or the cattle keepers to the North and the traders to the south overlap in their trades of different types of items, were called thresholds, and these are the points where those institutions meet with our different value registers allowing for wealth or status to be cultivated, and we'll see that I'm going to give some more contemporary examples that I might make that more clear.

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And Gyer tells us, although these are constructed and expressed in African terms, she, she herself works in contemporary Nigeria. Kind of conversions are part of the repertoire of monetary techniques of capitalism. So part of the project is really to connect these systems, which are, of course, pretty far from the systems that we live with today. to modern clap capitalist context and to think about what what they might be able to show us.

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So these thresholds are really important concepts within transactional pathways. Those are where institutions meet and that institutions here can be currencies. So you can think about global currency trades. You can think about social groups, right? The different groups that she is charting there where we can think in our societies

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of various types of social groups marked by citizenship, marked by race or ethnicity, etc.,

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laws, states, regimes of enforcement. These can all create various forms of value, disjunctures that can allow for status improvement.

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yeah. So if there's value disjunctures, that means that there's a potential for convergence or potential gains over time. and I think, really, interestingly, what this shows us is that their inequity is required in order to create the dissonance that's there to realize a potential gain. So through, for example, the experience of colonization. She gives an example where firearms become valued differently in

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Africa than they are in Europe. And so then, by bringing these older firearms that are essentially valueless in Europe to Africa, where they're highly valued. Colonizers are able to

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profit much more highly off of those firearms, and they would have been within the African context. And I think we can think about this in a lot of contemporary settings as well. innovation is a key way to cultivate those thresholds, so to create those differences you can think about. If a good is available, one place, but not another right.

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If an iphone is available one place, but not another, and then it becomes much more expensive somewhere else. There's a threshold that can be exploited in trying to overcome that

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through various types of access. Ok, yeah, or the invention of good services and platforms can create different forms of value to shuncture. All right. Hopefully, I haven't completely lost you. I feel like I've been really ambitious in this presentation, so fair with me. I'm going to give a couple of examples. So How did I come to this idea, why was I interested in economic anthropology? And then also this concept in particular? so I'll give 2 examples, one from India, and then the other from the Us. So

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my dissertation project. And now my book project, tentatively called the Garbage Economy, is interested in understanding the the systems for informal recycling in Delhi and India, and understanding why it was that the informal collectors who are pictured here had managed to persist even after formal collection trucks were and were introduced by the Government in cooperation with local infrastructure companies.

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And so I was asking how informal collectors and recyclers in this context had managed to continue accessing waste in the face of those programs. so basically, what this is showing is, you have a household female-headed household who basically had a decision in a local context whether to give their waste to the formal collection truck or to the informal recycler.

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yeah. And then there's a whole book to tell the larger story of this project. So basically, I found that these empirical questions about persistence were actually invitations to unpack this institutional multiplicity that I was encountering on the ground.

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and in particular, what I noted was that social position and status was especially important in upholding these institutions, not only because of the fact that they funneled people into particular jobs, for example, but that they created the only possibilities for people such as the informal collectors to earn a living and to potentially earn gains over time, even though they were quite small.

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I found that transactional pathways allows me to overcome what have been criticized by so many as unproductive binaries between formal and informal, traditional and modern.

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that I can use to characterize this case, and I use them descriptively here to say formal collection chuck, informal collector but ultimately using transactional pathways, allows me to see the different types of ways that these are structured, for example, dull it and Muslim working poor collectors where these informal collectors only value. the garbage that they're collecting because the recyclables that they pull out bring them potential monetary gain.

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and they only have that position because middle class majority upper cast households pictured here are willing to hand over their waste materials and are not willing to carry it themselves to a trash. Bin

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is the bottom line, I mean, there's a longer story to be told here. But basically it creates these positions and it creates these institutions that allows them to to have that role and to persist. And then, beyond those everyday conveyances through which recyclers collect garbage, pull out recyclables, and then earn money in order to subsist. That's a very subsistence level. type of activity.

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Oh, I should have had these. There we go! They

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yeah. So beyond those they are collecting the waste and then trying to accrue money to realize wider conversions by buying land back in the village, which is yet another kind of threshold between the city and the village where city-owned, city-owned money can lead to rural potential rural gains to try to improve social status through the purchase of land and favorable marriages.

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Okay, a second example that will be a little bit. I think more familiar. is access to credit in the United States. So this doesn't only apply to context like India or post-colonial contexts

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in the Us. We can think about credit scores So one of one of Gyer's objectives with with transactional pathways is to think about numbers, not only as ratio or continuous types of numbers. But to think about how they act as

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as ranked as ranked systems. There's actual cut offs right to a lot of our numerical systems. So if we look at credit in the Us. And how the we know that credit scores are are highly discriminate, or are are biased and racially biased in particular, and all the work that they do to lock different groups of society into a differentiated access to credit and wealth.

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It's one example that helps us to visualize the ways that this creates a kind of hierarchy and particular

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actual pathways or transactional possibilities. Okay? Credit. access to credit or differentiated access to credit feeds into the housing market in the United States very famously, and one upshot of this is that the limited access to mortgages based on the historical processes that have led to racialized and racist credit scores

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has meant that land contracts in the United States have become the norm, or have been the norm for communities of color. In many areas so land contracts as opposed to mortgages are

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regulated or installment based ways of purchasing homes. and there's something that they're very problematic for a lot of different reasons. But basically they make it very easy for the home buyer to lose their home. If they miss a single payment, they end up paying more for their house, etc.,

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in cities like Detroit, which is over 80% African American land contracts which are pictured here in purple have have long been the norm due to legacies of enslavement redlining.

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and Even more recently, right with the sub prime mortgage crisis. Different different racist practices around lending, and such that land contracts even outpaced mortgages throughout. much of the 2,010.

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So the point here is to show that there are different forms of institutions. There are different pathways that are available to different groups. And one way that we can see this is in this In this example of land contracts it versus formal mortgages.

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This became a threshold in the wake of the the reason or part of the reason. The number spike is spiked is that there became a threshold between the formal financial industry and the system of land contracts. So the system of lunch contracts being used for communities of color who didn't have other options due to these very long, historic, durable legacies of racism in the United States.

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And so we had land contracts on the one hand. redlining and segregation leading to that denied access to wealth and credit. And what happened is private equity. Firms in the wake of the 2,008 mortgage foreclosure crisis realized that they could snap up a lot of properties that were being foreclosed upon, and then sell them back to people living, often living in those properties, or or new tenants on land contract.

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And so Private equity firms were able to kind of use the threshold between their access to wealth. you know you have a predominantly white financial class in the United States that has historically had the ability to accrue wealth often with government support in contrast to communities of color in cities, right? Just painting a very broad brush.

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And this created a threshold or a point of conversion where those financial firms are able to. were able to use land contracts as a tool to accrue more wealth for their own for their own coffers.

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Okay? So in closing, I think that transactional pathways can be useful for tracing connections between valuation, wealth and social status. to move beyond perspectives and economic sociology that tend to individualize social groups, and use money as the primary measure of value. which I think can be up of fiscal toore. It can office gate right the work that that money is actually doing, and the way that goods media mediate transactions

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 and ultimately to demonstrate how forms of social difference and discrimination are directly related to wealth, accumulation patterns.

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And then, in conclusion, I have some research questions. that we can consider here. and I would say it's not enough to say that economies are racialized or otherwise stratified by status, but we have to think about how those processes are co-constituted. and I think that this process, this can be one useful way of of thinking about that without creating a kind of variable type of relationship out of race or ethnicity which comes with its own problems.

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and I would say, attending to forms of status, identity, and oppression would help to ensure the subfields. Appeal to the next generation of scholars who are extremely concerned with processes of racial capitalism and its analogs. Thank you.

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Thanks, Dana. That's a really exciting concept to be thinking about and definitely not commonly used in in economy and society and economic sociology. As I know it's it's

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but but but a huge concept with an economic anthropology for sure.

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Thank you. so for those of you who are online, We are having discussions at the end. So please hold on to your questions and comments, and I assure you that you will have your say, as well as for those of you here present.

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Our next speaker is Dustin Stultz, who is going to be brokering in the concept of theorizing imagin of labor.

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Okay, dark distance. Okay. that sounds good. Thank you, Aaron, and thank you for organizing these 3 sessions on brokering.

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And I wanna start a little bit by talking about brokering, which is very near and dear to me. It's one of the reasons that I got into sociology, which is this field that embraces pluralism, especially methodological pluralism. you'll also see that I am in a cognitive science program. So cognitive science is not a discipline, right? It's something that emerged in the 50 s. And the sixtys as an inter

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science. That is a connection between obviously psychology, computer science, philosophy, linguistics, anthropology, increasingly, sociology.

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So it's this field that has always been sort of grappling with this question of of brokering. but all sort of focused on this thing which is cognition. How do we think?

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And I think sociologists have a lot to offer this inter science, I hope. And I also think that cognitive science has a lot to offer us, and one thing that I want to broker in is not specifically imaginative labor, but embodied cognition. So if you take anything from my talk just this concept of embodied cognition.

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So

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one other thing that is near and dear to my heart is the future. I'm obsessed with it. I'm obsessed with time travel. I watch a lot of time travel movies. So in the Q. And A, If you have any time travel movies that I need to see. Let me know. But

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there's this idea that the future doesn't exist right? It is something that we cannot lie about, because it simply doesn't exist. And I think for most social scientists this is the standard right, the technical term for this is the growing block model of time. Where right? We're slowly adding, as time goes on, and so the future, it is unknown. It's unknowable we can, we can't lie about it.

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And so this is really the place at which I think a lot of sociologists are starting to converge when they talk about the imagination and the future. Is this idea that it is contingent, and therefore it is something that we cannot have facts about. So how is it that we're able to coordinate right? How is it that we're able to convince other people right? Convince people about our visions of the future. What's constraining us? How do we

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deal with the questions of plausibility when it is something that doesn't exist that is fundamentally fictional.

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Right? So Beckert's work is sort of emblematic of this in economic sociology, and his his concept of fictional expectations that these expectations must be fictional. And so this is my point of intervention. Is thinking about this this work

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of doing a building these fictional expectations. And so Beckert's work, he argues, that risk is calculable, right? So A drawing on this notion that risk is something that we can calculate. There are numbers that we can put to this, but uncertainty is something that is incalculable and therefore right. If the future is uncertain. How do we turn it into risk? What are sort of the constraints that we put on it that makes it that we can. We can sort of act and Instead of just being

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paralyzed.

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So Beckert argues that we create these fictional expectations, and in his his book imagined futures. He demonstrates how institutions and calculative devices serve this purpose. But I kind of want to take a step back and think about the imagination as something that is embodied. It's something that people do, and my critique of

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his approach is that he adopts this position. That, I think, is quite common in sociology, called the disembodied theory of cognition, and therefore creates a disembodied

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theory of imagination.

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and so to break down the first part of his book. He has an ontological argument, a phenomenological argument, an epistemological argument. So yontological. Again, I I kind of already talked about this, and I think it is something that most of us would agree upon

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right tomorrow doesn't exist. His phenomenological argument is a bit historical, he argues that, you know. So there's something about modernity, perhaps more recent modernity. you know whatever word you want to put it, liquid modernity risks society, that

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this uncertainty is more palpable, that we feel it, and we can, of course, Critique him on this, and I think, Many people have. But we can agree that there's something about the Zeitgeist right now that yeah, okay, things feel uncertain.

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But where I want to sort of take. this book. Imagine features. A task is the epistemological argument that is adopted.

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And it's this idea that we do not have any knowledge of the world. There is a fundamental bifurcation that I am isolated in some way from the world. Right. And this is really the core of the disembodied theory.

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So it goes by lots of names, and of course, lots of disciplines have sort of dealt with this in their own sorts of way. But this is fundamentally substance dualism, that there's something about thinking

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that is of a fundamentally different substance than whatever is the world.

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And in sociology, I say, we sociologize, we sociologize this by sort of creating these buckets of people who are all sort of engaged in this collective hallucination. That's, you know, bifurcated from the world together. And this sort of solves the problem of solipsism. But it also leads to a lot of other problems.

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So one of the problems is known as the symbol grounding problem, which is that if we agree that we somehow internalize this system of meanings.

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but it's completely disconnected from the rest of the world. Then do we ever are we ever able to ground or know, meaning if they are fundamentally arbitrary, lacking any reference whatsoever.

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Another problem is the question of adjudication. If, in fact, these are fictional expectations, what is the point of calling them fictional? If every way of knowing is fundamentally fictional

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right? If we really have no direct engagement with the world.

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then everything is simply fictional, and all we can do is simply, rely on authority to decide what is plausible and what isn't.

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And then, finally, there's the question of transmission, right? So this goes back to sort of classics in sociology like Berger and Luckman and Talcott Parsons. Right? How do we internalize this system

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that is fundamentally disconnected and arbitrary?

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So I would argue that these 3 problems really are critically. sort of of the disembodied theory. They're unable to overcome these problems. And fundamentally, I think it leads to a Blunted theory of imagination!

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So the alternative is the embodied theory of cognition and the embodied theory of imagination. So we do have direct access to objective reality, we can perceive objective reality. We have access to an ecologically relevant subset of reality, right as human beings, as organisms with bodies that are navigating the world. We obviously can't see outside of a certain light spectrum, and so on.

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We see at a particular scale. But we can still perceive a world that is there, and that world is there in common, and it provides a ground upon which we can begin to understand each other and understand the world and build the more complex thing we call culture.

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The other way that it is embodied is that it is grounded in the modalities of the bodily systems. This might take a little bit of work for sociologists to understand. but

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the idea here is even the most abstract thinking, which we are all probably very comfortable with being academics is grounded in the most basic

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right? So here we are doing what Marx and Engels did in the German ideology, instead of going from heaven to earth. We're moving from earth to heaven to arrive at these abstract concepts.

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And we do this by borrowing from the basic sensor a motor system that we have

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right. This ability to think imaginatively is an exaptation of more basic cognitive processes.

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So Schwartz, in vertical classification, which is an excellent book, and I love it so much, and I talk about it all the time. He identifies this relationship between a non arbitrary mapping of verticality, something that we see we perceive we understand.

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And this sociological, meaningful. Valence, right up is associated with good down is associated with that. We see it all over the place. It is all our language. It just is constantly. It's hard for us to talk about status. It's hard for us to talk about morality. It's hard for us to talk about Valence without referencing the verticality of our

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engagement with the world.

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So what's even more fascinating though.

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is that in this process of borrowing we actually recruit the sensory motor, substrate the neural substrate that is actually used in perception. We reactivate it in the process of abstract thinking

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right. And so, for example, not everyone has an inner monologue.

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and that inner monologue can vary in terms of its vividness right to the point where it feels like somebody outside of you is yelling at you all the way to somebody has no inner monologue. But what this is is actually the internalization

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of my external voice.

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It is this ability to reactivate these same neural circuits or a portion of them that would be used if I was speaking. But then I just kind of stop it. I suppress it a little bit

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right, and you can kind of do this now. You can think of your name right now. Think of saying your name without saying it. You can kind of feel the syllables in your mouth for me.

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Right? They're almost there, but not quite.

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And so this creates an embodied realism. When we engage in imagination

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right? It feels real. We can imagine ourselves doing things that we have never done. and we maybe could never do, and we can feel what it might feel like.

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So this leads to perhaps the the biggest jump. So we've moved

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from sociology, right with vertical classification to cognitive neuroscience with neural reuse. And now we're moving to linguistics. And this this idea of a conceptual metaphor.

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So the argument here is that when we are thinking about these abstract concepts.

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there is this implicit mapping of the structure of the source domain of a metaphor

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and the target that we're attempting to talk about. And this drives the intuitiveness of the target of how we understand the target because we've been there.

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Right? We've done that.

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So a widely studied example across cultures and linguistic groups is this association between time, which is really sort of abstract and space?

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Right? So, for example, we can pass things down through the generations. We can move a meeting up or down, or back or forward. We can associate spring and summer with different places. Right now I'm using my hands to associate space

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with. With time, the the Amara people. They associate the future with the back and the past with the front, because they can see

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what just happened. But they can't see the future. We have the opposite.

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I'm sorry. Most most everyone else has the opposite right? So we have this association. And what happens is we literally reactivate locomotion when we're thinking about

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time.

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And what's really useful for this is because conceptual metaphor theory is building on this idea of embody cognition. It provides a coherent way of conceptualizing abstract thought and the structures and forms that we see in abstract thought.

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And not only that, but it's been around for 50 years. They have a lot of really great tools that we can use when we are interviewing people or reading things that they have written.

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So I would argue that the imagination is grounded in bodies right? It's something that somebody must do.

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and people with certain kinds of bodies

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and experience, bodily experience creating certain dispositions, are sorted into various occupations. right? And so we should be interested in that sorting of people into various occupations, as it relates to imaginative labor.

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So to move on from the theoretical portion, I'll give a quick introduction to the to the case, and then a little bit of the analysis, which is, I focus on elite management, consulting firms.

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And so Graver in bullshit jobs, talks a lot about consulting, and he makes this distinction between those who engage in imaginative labor, who are who are relatively low status, generally working in the service industry. And then the group of people who are sort of knowledge workers. They work in think tanks. They're he doesn't say it, but they could be academics as well, or consultants. Right? That's sort of a big target of his as consultants. And so that's what I study is the elite people.

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And what's interesting is this distinction that Gryber identifies also fits as sort of a a fractal structure. So as we move in to the consulting field, we actually see a distinction emerging between. There are consultants that actually they do a lot of work. Their implementers. They they engage in execution.

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and they're considered low status as well. So there's this mapping of status

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to abstract thinking right? So at the very top.

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right, you have the the top consulting firms, Mckinsey, Bcg. And Bain, and then the consulting wings of the various accounting firms as well. And even within those firms same thing you have this fractal. You have the people who do the high status work of abstract thinking.

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And so I'm really interested in these people who are engaged in this process of creating an imaginative future for all of us. and the tremendous power that we put in the hands of those people

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right? And the basic way that they sort of think about the future and how they have been sorted into those positions.

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But for today I'll do. Just a quick demonstration of the underlying method of trying to bring this history of metaphor analysis to interviews and things that these consultants have written.

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So the basic conceptual metaphor

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that I identifies this idea that organizations and economies are fundamentally unstable substances

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right? And this organizes the way that they talk about organizations and economies. And this instability is fast movement. This instability is breaking apart, and this instability is colliding parts.

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So the book that really started the the business book, which is now, of course, a booming industry, is a search for excellence.

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These were Mckinsey consultants who wrote this book.

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and what they did is they argued that, well, there's this structured approach to management. and we're going to argue that you can't do a structure approach. You got to do this culture approach.

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And so they argue that because everything is constantly moving right? You have to stay flexible. It's like a rigid building right on a fault. Line is going to crack apart, and you can't be that because economies and organizations are constantly moving.

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We see this again in another very famous business book, again written by consultants the the attacker's advantage. And this idea that you're going to get blindsided by these discontinuities.

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Right? So this constant need to address the fact that you're engaging with an unstable substance.

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we see this again again, with the sort of rediscovery of creative destruction, by By business folk, and again by consultants in particular.

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Right. and Foster and Kaplan, both Mckinsey consultants and then. Now, business professors, they talk about this idea that you have to be careful of the stiffening of the ossification, because, again, you can't have a rigid building on a fault line.

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right? Organizations and economies are fundamentally these unstable substances.

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So again, another very famous book, The Innovator's Dilemma. Again a Mckinsey consultant turned a business professor.

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It's this idea that what tanks these industries is that they just can't deal with these unstable substances.

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they have to constantly be adapting, constantly be changing. There can be really, nothing can be learned from tradition, nothing can be learned from from structure.

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And then this is written by a history professor who is sort of fed up with this metaphor that we are constantly dealing with these unstable substances.

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Right?

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And so this engagement with this fundamental conceptual metaphor that really organizes the way that these consultants think is that everything is constantly in a panic. You're almost you're always about to fall right. You're always about to be hit by that wave to be hit by that earthquake.

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and so you constantly have to be moving. So, in addition to looking at what they wrote, I also interviewed these consultants.

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and so in just a sampling was, how do you see the global economy?

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So this was a a consultant, I would say, which at one of these elite firms.

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right? So you

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you no longer have a robust economy. World wine right? This idea again that economies are. They're unstable substances. And so if you're slow, if you're not moving fast enough, right? You're going to get crushed, and that everything is fragmenting.

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Right? So there's just this idea that it's all falling apart. It's all coming together. So this idea that you know there are sort of concentrations going on in the economy is just not in their mind at all.

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So again, another consultant

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right. This idea that instability is fundamentally about this speeding up is moving faster is breaking apart.

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And then, finally, this was written by yeah. So I I interviewed a consultant, and they referred me to an article that they had co-written with a bunch of other consultants. And at Mckinsey.

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right? And you see the same sort of fundamental conceptual metaphor. So this basic conceptual metaphor that economies and organizations are these unstable substances, and if an organization wants to be stable they fundamentally will fall. They will fail to succeed.

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It's been around for about 4 decades.

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and it organizes the way that they right. They think about this idea of an economy. So my argument, right, is that the source domain of experiencing these physical, unstable stuff. And it provides this intuitive structure right? They think they're actually talking about a thing right? The economy, which is obviously not one thing. It's not one object. but it structures their discourse, and it makes it feel as though they're talking about something, and it becomes plausible and culturally quite powerful.

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Furthermore, this sort of fits with what they're attempting to do, which is convincing everyone. every company

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that things are falling apart constantly

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right, and they really need smart advisors to help them.

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And so more generally. as we sort of continue this journey of thinking about the imagination in economic life. I sort of implore you to think about embodiment, and in particular embodied cognition. So not only who is doing the imagining right, and whose imaginings are valued, which I think is important, but also how these cognitive processes are fundamentally grounded in the body.

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So thank you very much. And I look forward to any questions you might have.

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Thank you.

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Thank you, Destin. It's not Ted Talk, but there was like a Ted Talk.

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small ex Ted it was called, or something like that. I only talked about it as you could tell. He's got that skill right? You talk to a lot of consultants, I guess.

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Okay. And so Our. Our last presentation is by pofunci from National Sinclair University in Taiwan. His paper is called Einsteinness, a neglected concept in the tradition and field of economy and society. Thank you very much.

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Okay.

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Thank everyone for joining this section and special thank for Iran and

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Donna and testing. I learned a lot from your paper, and I am very surprised by this project. Yeah, because

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my paper, it's not so fit me into the other section or the at the Rc. I have tried to make my presentation into Rc. Like sociological theory, or a historic of social history, of sociology, but

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I think I'm much fit in this new idea of the whole project. So first of all, thank you. And the second information I need to provide is that

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I I know some sociologists may be saying that that the Max Weivers seems like a alien to now our sociologists, but

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to my best I try to bring some insight from him.

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And this is

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analytic presentation rather than a genealogical. So I do my best try to delete that delete the historical information. Yeah, but maybe it's not so

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embodiment presentation.

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Some old-fashioned style. Yeah, but that's all.

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And that is what I would do for 3 3 part of the first one I will introduce. Introduce. Why, I think 2 scholarship maybe enrich each other. One is the new economy sociology and the other is the Weberry nasty Renaissance in the rest and straight the case. And the second part I do my best to analytic

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provide some insight from this concept and what he, what what it can feel a get off on the field of economic in a society. And then I do a short conclusion. but I have to confess that

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for the project I still struggle to. find a very, very concrete example. Yeah, because it's a to this from my genealogical project or genealogical examination. But I think, this project is very open to us. So let us see.

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the first one is that I tried to breach to a scholarship around the near 3. The case, the first one is a new economy, so a new economical sociology. I think there is many, many. There are many, many reflection about how we go from, how we win from the 19 eighties to now.

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but the other. Maybe a much narrow field is about Max Weber how to rediscover Max Weiber's work.

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but I think if we can reach the true field, we can find some important or essential concept to enrich each other. So let this task of my presentation.

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and I start wrong with

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very short paper. A Japanese scholar. He also he's also very good, Max, with a scholar, one a true of his paper, just we can just find that his argument from the title. He told us that

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for many, many years we have a wrong hand with the

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wrong body. In the Max Weivers big work, the Economy and the society.

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That's because the chapter one of the economy in a society it's written around a

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1920,

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many, many years after the old manuscript.

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much paper right before the World War one so. Consider the arrows of the edition up. editor, work or editoring work! We need a new hand to cover

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the real body of the work in, or the information in the economy and society.

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and the the second paper. His argument is about

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how to find the right hand. So he said, the right hand is located on the categorical essay.

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But he tried to interpret, interpret this as a in his fourth stage rationary realization. I'm not agree with that. I have on a different perspective.

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Yeah. So that is a star. So this is a standpoint from my presentation, which is, try to think about a new possibility to realize whether it's economic economy in a society. And then maybe we will have a much more clear genealogical project

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to realize how they work. Economy in the society! From Max Weber passed to Taco Parsons, and they try to test again to the new ecological

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sociology.

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And that is why, one of my paper. But it's really interesting. I just try to provide.

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the different typology of social action. So you will see very clearly that in a categorical essay

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Max Weber proposed a very important concept.

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verse 10, Denise. Somehow we have a very contested translation code

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consentious action. But I will tell you that. No, it's not

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a very good translation.

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but on the right side is a very for media version. When we read some kind of textbook in sociology, we we all know this kind of typology, but in fact, we will have had proposed a much complicated version, but to sound reason

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he was frustrated by his colleague, his student, and he added, on that time, so

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maybe consider the publication. He he. He tried to revise the categorical essay into what we know now as the basic concept in sociology. But that I think that's a pity. Yeah, because he lose a lot of the theoretical assumption

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which still confuses us now. Ok, so if we bring back the idea of consensus action.

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maybe we have a. 3, 3. 3. Advantage to take out the first one is that

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when we see what is the dilemma or the the trip, theoretical trap between structure and action. In fact, we still try to find a social action for economy or rational or profit action.

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But this theoretical work is trap into the trap by the

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convention typology of weivers action. So if we bring back the new typology, I call that

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triple hypology of action, you have a commute commune action, a social action and the consensus consensus action. You will find a web, but try to mediate it.

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The in between this.

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between Russian regional and the non-rational, and he also tried to make social action with a concrete group.

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It not a individualistic or atomic action

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you always

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proposed by action with your friend and and the people around you.

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It's not very. It's not a very, very individualistic assumption. So if we bring back this kind of idea.

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we will overcome the criticism of our that. the field that the over separated

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an assumption in the field of economy, and a society

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because you always try to find a social relevancy or a social factor to enrich the economical or of profit action. I think that is a

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I run away, but we have already come for several decades. Yeah, and

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it is a very

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very good example, for why? We have already come the wrong way for many decades is about the Embeddedness debate, because so many scholars they try to revise the embeddedness or try to elaborate the embeddedness debate.

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They still try to find all kinds of social factor.

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for example, social group or social network or social skill. if you are very familiar with this turn, you will find

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some name, for example, gnomerator have some white or

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the way. Okay, let's let's forget it. And

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if we bring this advantage back in, I think we can relate it to a very relevant, relevant literature! It's about rational work. So for the sociology in the field of economy and the society, some of them very familiar with the research or the scholarship about relational work.

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So that's why I think if we can bring back Max Weber's idea

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about consensus action, maybe we can make some connection between this 2 field

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and the the second one is when we go back to Weiber's text you will find that. he! He. He wrote, written a lot of paragraph to elaborate, elaborate the idea of us. If older.

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he thinks He have 2. Example for us. One is for a language as if older, the other is for market.

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But it's very sad things that most sociologists take the framework from Yugen. Hub must to see the language

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as if older, is much authentic to a mutual understanding, and for the market, as as as if older, it

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bring earth some kind of system systematic or so assistance stereo media during extraction. So I don't think we need to have so much moral and a numberal distinction on this idea.

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Once we bring back the

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Max Weber's idea about conceptual action.

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So when we have this new idea, maybe we can connect his idea or his insight to a very contemporary scholarship.

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One of

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the the of fictional explanation have already been mentioned in Dustin's work.

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Yeah. So What I try to add is that

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we? We need to know there's a very, very difference between sociological as if older and the as if mythology in economies.

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Yes.

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so that is very different, because many, many economists, they try to use a very common thing. We have your assumption. They call us if math.

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Yeah, but in sociological. perspective. That is not not a very individualistic assumption. That is a social order which is a fiction or a fictional extension.

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Yeah, so that is the second advantage I try to bring back.

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and the third one is, I think, Weber's categorical essay have a very important mythological consideration is that he gave us 2 different rationality.

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one, the one is

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purposes rationality, the other is a

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very silencing concept.

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called correction, correct correct rationality. Between this 2 kind of originality we can find a

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to at least 2 different standpoint. The one is for the participants, the other is a observer. So we have 2 different aspects, and then we will know how our social actor

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transfer between these kind of 2 different viewpoint, and then we will know the knowledge from the actor. They will be circulated.

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and they will have their own knowledge to this word, and then they, that kind of knowledge will become a very important institutionalized, forced

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to sustain the social order. I think that is a very important insight from us. We first categorical asset, but

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the concept of correct Russian novelty has already deleted. Oh, from the the the 19 twenties Virgin in the pessim

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concept of sociology. So if I if we bring back this advantage, I think we can connect some recently research or scholarship in

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economical sociology

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which it's about. performativity or governmentality. If you have already know some inside of this kind of research, you will find they also try to presume or convince you that they are some big narrative, or some elaborative discourse which can control the actor to

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follow the rule, and

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we add a economic behavior! But I think when we work in Max weivers consensus. Action!

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That will be a better way to explain how actors are subjectivation. But we

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don't need to rely on some

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conspiracy theory or illusion theory. Yeah.

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that would that would be a very difficult things, because you need to see those actor as a job, or some some people who

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have already misunderstanding something.

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Yeah, but I don't think we we need to do that. Okay. so that is the third advantage.

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And in summary, I just try to present that if we bring back the concept and try to make a triple typology of action on social action. Maybe we will fit some gap in the field of economy and society.

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and then we can relate it to

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the relevant literature, and try to find a very smoothly, or flexibility connection between different scholarship within the field of economy and the society.

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and my short conclusion is that

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the the the bigger ambition or the

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the purpose of my project is not only try to enrich the scholarship

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of the economy and society. What I want to do more is that I want to propose an alternative way or alternative. Max Weivers contribution to economy and society.

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Maybe it's 2 ambitions to say that we have already gone the wrong way wrong way for many decades, but I think for now most conventional understanding of

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Max Weber's contribution.

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Maybe you are very familiar that Taco parsons bring the the work.

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Max Weippers work to contemporary sociology and his functional paradigm. We will always call a economy and a society approach.

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and there are some scholar. They always find insights from the Preston Protestant Asic. The spirit of capitalism or the Mega walk of economy in a society.

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I don't think that is enough.

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And the third convention outstanding, they try to find a chat. I. That is a very complicated chapter, very long chapter about how Max Weber struggle with the

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Oh is an old age. economist! And he tried to rewrite all kind of economical concept in a sociological way. But I think if we bring back the

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the original chapter one from the categorical essay, maybe we will have a different and alternative understanding of Max Weber's contribution to the field of our economy and a society.

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Okay. let's all my presentation. And thank you.

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I don't have an idea. I mean you. You still have 5 min, or even 6 min. I was just wondering at a shark that you showed just before your conclusion. I mean.

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okay to you. But I was wondering, do you think it would be helpful to? Just before this? We saw that very briefly, and it's kind of summarizing a little talk. I was wondering, would you feel comfortable in about 5 min to kind of like walk us through that.

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yeah, what was that off topic?

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 I it. It's just a very briefly summary from my argument, because I

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I deliberately, in order.

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So what I want to do at the same time is to when I presented each page, and at the same time I also try to

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to tell you. What is the future feature of this concept, and what the gaps we can feel? And then Based on

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the 2 previous point.

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what kind of literature I can connect, or that would be a very good opportunity to connect that connect the the relevant literature.

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But I have to confess that this table have a very.

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a crucial shortcoming is that I still need to synergized with 3 points.

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For example. I think it's not enough or not clear enough to related to 3 different

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relevant literature is too diverse. So what I write in my abstract is a

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trying to find some modern contemporary or cutting age issue, for example. the digital labor or digital pain from labor.

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Try to convince you that

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this kind of a theoretical inside can. focus on one example. Yeah. But I have to confess that there is still many work. I need to finish that. Yeah, thank you

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that. Yeah.

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that's wonderful. So we? We have 30 min for questions and for a discussion. And what I propose that the way we begin this is

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I'll pass the microphone to the audience, and so each of you can. We'll collect all the comments or questions to any of the 3 papers, and then I will ask the same for the whoever is online. If they have any questions or comments, or for those of you who are online, you could type it. And we'll read the questions.

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and then, I will ask before you our panel answers. I'll ask whether any of the 3 of you have any questions or comments about each other's paper, and then with, We'll see how much time we have for it. And obviously you're not going to be able to use all of that feedback at least, that we'll all be learning from each other's ideas. So Who would like to begin

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testing?

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Yes.

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thank you. Oh.

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thank you for these really super fascinating and useful papers. My question is for Dana.

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I'm sorry I'm Lynn Spillman, University of Notre Dame. So my, is this working? Yeah.

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So my question is for you, Dana. And it's it's just interesting to to think about your suggestion about transactional pathways.

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I thought, and I'm just throwing this out to see. You know your response. I don't have any particular direction to take this, but it's an interesting comparison

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to another

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a

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useful I guess import from economic anthropology, and that has to do with commodification

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and apodurai, and Kobitov's biography of things which transforms, you know, a sort of flat idea of commodification

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into a much more historical process, and with things moving into and out of commodity by focusing on things moving into and out of commodity status. They also suggest that those transfer points are points of potential.

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Nodes of potential power, right? And so I mean, it's just an interest. It seemed very parallel, and I'd be interested if you could comment on that.

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Thank you.

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Who else? Yes.

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so my name is. So I I'm working at the University of Frankfurt in Germany. so I have a a question for for testing and one for Buffy. I. Okay, so these are questions related to trying to understand better your arguments. I think all the 3 papers are really insightful.

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So to Dustin. I was wondering so first of all, in the first part of your paper where we were talking about embody cognition and a direct connection with the world in direct knowledge of the world. I was already wondering. So what's what's how can one understand? Let's say, delusion, that context, right? Fantasies all this.

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the stuff that we think it's happening, but sometimes it's not exactly. And then, by the end of your presentation, when you talked about the consultant's discourse

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and then you mentioned I mean, I wasn't sure how much you were distancing from from them, but I had the impression that you was that you were. when you talked about concentration, for instance, as a sort of seems to me that you were pointed to sort of a blind spot there discourse. So for me, these to connect these 2 questions sort of connected at that moment. So so it seems to me that the some notion of Blind spot, delusion, etc., should play a role. And yeah, I would like to hear you about this

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and to qualify, I would like to hear more about. So the the third

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the third aspect there, and the connection to performativity. I think I didn't really understand. so you mentioned the connection between propulsive rationality and correct rationality and correct question. I I mean in Max Weber's work for me. It's I'm not very familiar with with that so and

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and and the connection of that to subjectivation. So this is a really vague question. But I want to understand better the connection between these elements. Thank you.

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Yes, we're all trying to. We remember the these, these chapters, my favor and other comments. Questions.

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Yes.

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So the first one is, Dana Cornburg.

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see

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that slide.

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This is.

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thank you so much from all presenters. Well, you give us a lot of energy.

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and you talk about a very important things in sociology.

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Max Weber is a sociologist that all of us should read it

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thousands, thousands of times, especially especially in developing countries, who the Socio-science is the import of, is from external country to the country. And really.

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and Max Weber lead us, teach us how we can

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make an external science And therefore change it to the indigenous internal, and make it more applicable.

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It's a very important function of a Mike's Weber idea

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out for developing country.

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I want to ask a question from Dana. Firstly, I want to give a

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the comment, the comment

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about what you say. In my country there is a really successful business. It's called the Yaroned Darion, the or supermarket and very, very successful supermarket

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in the best places of

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Tehran capital of, you know, in the richest places of capital of Iran, you know, business in Iran is very difficult because of some political difficulties.

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The root of these supermarkets is ethnic.

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Turk, Turk, Turkey is an ethnic and ethnic and era, and the root of these all super markets is a person

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who started the supermarket and

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make an organization every supermarket that progress enough

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invite a young boy

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and grew up. He.

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when he grew up completely and gather enough

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capital served another business. That's an independent

400
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yeah supermarkets. That's very interesting. It's very interesting.

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Ask your new question you point out to a really deep illness of socio-science reduction.

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reduction

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always with you say, social phenomena are so complicated or so complicated.

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But when we want to analyze any such a

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problem and social. phenomena, we commit reduction.

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What's your idea?

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What's your remedy to solve this problem? Thank you.

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Your name Shannon is from Iran Pioneer University.

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Thank you.

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Other comments or questions.

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thank you so much for the panel for the wonderful presentations, Dustin, you gave up such amazing energy that was very inspiring. I'm shung you from formerly from the University of Chicago. I just graduated, and going to 9 and Technological university soon.

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in Singapore. My question is for Dana and for profile. I was so fascinated. By the way, I thought the 2 of your works actually spoke to each other, and in in particular I was thinking about the transaction pathway as an example of the kind of action that presupposes the kind of social order that you are talking about. I guess my my question for most of say for Dana. But I would love for both on the command as well.

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Well, to what extent do the exchanges that you see, thinking that

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across happen across these status groups? To what extent do they help to reinforce? Or do they actually help to, you know, destabilize the sort of social orders that you see in India? Yeah.

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Key key question.

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Oh, you don't have to get that.

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Yeah, let me just echo everyone by just expressing my appreciation for these wonderful presentations. Simon and Paulila, from the University of Virginia.

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I have a question for Dana and one for both hang as well, and it sort of echoes the comments that you just made actually for for Dana. I thought it was really interesting. How you sort of I think you're you're advancing relational work in very interesting ways, because relational work is really, in a way emphasizing matchings. And what? And the concept of thresholds are really sound like the

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a necessary complement to that. So I think that that was very interesting. And and you know I will like you to a little bit on that. But I'm also wondering what this focus on transactions

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misses out on in the sense that there's a lot of stuff in the economy that does not rely on interactions and transactions. And I'm sort of wondering, you know, I'm curious about your thoughts on this and for you, in a way sort of the the

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the idea of like, you know, taking on Max Weber in terms of trees as opposed to 2 s. And S to me also very, very interesting. And I'm I'm wondering if your thoughts about how what you're proposing maybe lead to sort of the really classic, you know, three-fold classification of class status and party. I wonder if there is a sort of patter that you can draw. Within your classification, and and the very famous classification that Weber proposed. As well. Thank you.

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intriguing

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either questions or comments. Please raise your hand

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01:24:44.830 --> 01:24:57.109
all right. Is there any questions or comments in the on zoom online? Okay? And what about on the panel? Do? Does they win it totally optional? But do do

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01:24:57.230 --> 01:25:00.610
any of you have comments for for each other for questions.

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01:25:03.420 --> 01:25:07.440
You do it? Yes, no? Oh, no.

427
01:25:10.910 --> 01:25:21.409
yeah. thank you for. Let me to play a presenter at the same time. audience, to propose my question to 2 of you.

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Yeah. But I think it's quite a rich presentation, because I,

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the information is more than the draft I read. So some of my question may be based on the draft

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and the other maybe based on the notes I just take.

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And the first first question for Dana is that I think it's very good. concept.

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call a transitional pathway.

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But

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what I read is that if you try to figure out which kind of group or what kind of

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carrier strata he must with us. 10.

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 performance. They're intuitively during the transition.

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So you believe her

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pathway, and then you point out the

439
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Hmm. which group

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facilitate or block the the road.

441
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That's very good.

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01:26:24.520 --> 01:26:34.300
but I still try to ask a a question related to Dustin's work, because you mentioned about the force the semi

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force. So Field consist of currency.

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which means

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we still some fictional

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 idea or fictional is attention, like money or media, that disturbing people.

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So how this kind of group or this kind of chaos strata

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to deal with the the pressure from that kind of information, or that kind of pseudo. The first order of the

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maybe, for your example, the information of Len

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contract.

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That's one question and the other question for dusting is that.

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Larry?

453
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A reverse site from my question on Anna, is that

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you told us a very comprehensive picture that the fiction expansion play a very important role.

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01:27:38.240 --> 01:27:42.330
We still want to know where is the labor

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so embodiment the theory of fiction or future.

457
01:27:49.250 --> 01:27:54.130
You, you say, come from somebody's neighbor.

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not everybody on somebody, some group in your empirical case, that is, consultant people. They do a lot of work to facilitate this kind of imagination or fiction imagination of the future.

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But I still want to know. to work in stand, or in what sense that is a labor.

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not only your action, that is a labor. They have paid a lot of time and be trained, and do a lot of things

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to facilitate that that imagination.

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It is not a comprehensive for everyone's labor, only for some people.

463
01:28:38.010 --> 01:28:43.939
So maybe you can tell me. Tell us more. I think that's a very interesting issue.

464
01:28:44.180 --> 01:28:45.370
Yeah, thank you.

465
01:28:47.980 --> 01:29:05.179
Any any more questions before, yeah. Oh, one of you got a question, all right. Yeah, I'll I'll just build on. so thank you so much for all of these questions. and for years as well. Co phone, I was going to ask a question for each of you. So building on what co-fund just said, I was going to ask a Dustin.

466
01:29:05.180 --> 01:29:21.149
And this idea of embodied labor I'd be really interested in. You're just asking more empirically from the field work that you did, what kinds of maybe like bodily dispositions, or how you think about the actual bodily comportion or

467
01:29:21.150 --> 01:29:40.559
bodily specificity of these of these consultants, and how that shapes the way that they see the world. I'm picturing someone running. And you know, like the very like kind of efficiency ideas, and how those are marked on the body, and and particularly ideas of ability, of of ableeness being, I imagine, being really central.

468
01:29:40.560 --> 01:30:03.559
But I'd love to hear more about that if it's if it's in the data. and then I was curious to hear more. It's interesting. So there's different readings of Weber. I have tended to read him with a lot more of this middle space which it sounds like this concept helps us to really track out or to, you know, put to put flesh on

469
01:30:03.560 --> 01:30:14.349
But yeah, and the rational and non-rational in the way that in so much of his work that there does seem to be much more of a middle ground. So I was wondering what your reflections are of

470
01:30:14.610 --> 01:30:30.519
the way that he talks about that with through these categories, as and how does that compare to his larger body of work like, do you see, this concept is helping us to better understand his other works? Or is it something that might be evident in there, even though it's not something that he states explicitly.

471
01:30:32.350 --> 01:30:36.810
so at this point, let's have each of you in order. Kind of a

472
01:30:36.950 --> 01:30:43.790
choose the question strategically that you that you feel you can most directly engage with.

473
01:30:43.800 --> 01:30:55.620
We have to check again. Yeah. So we've got we have 15 min. That's roughly 5 min per, and I'll and I'll keep a timer. But basically, you know that that's enough time, though, to kind of engage with

474
01:30:55.850 --> 01:30:58.110
the things you can most easily engage with.

475
01:30:59.350 --> 01:31:25.640
Yeah, I I can start because I have the microphone here. so yeah, thank you so much for All of these questions. I think I'll actually talk to. I'll start off speaking to the questions asked by Lynn and Simone. which were I I think you both pointed to important sort of related concepts. Right? So, on the one hand.

476
01:31:25.640 --> 01:31:38.320
relational work, and particularly, I think, circuits of commerce is something that would be closest at hand to think about. Also, it's a perceptual type of proposition.

477
01:31:38.660 --> 01:32:04.259
and really an obviously relational one. And yeah, and so it's something that I think this builds on, and I think it builds on an in productive ways of kind of like opening up, I think sometimes, those circuits as productive as they might be to think with are just very kind of confining, you know, not only you know, physically, in the way that they get drawn, but just in what they're able to capture of the social world. And I find transactional pathways to be

478
01:32:04.260 --> 01:32:18.679
a broader concept that has a lot of other conceptual pieces built into it that can be helpful to think with and so related to that. but the biography of things concept is another concept that I I have found really useful and is

479
01:32:18.680 --> 01:32:21.830
definitely related. very directly.

480
01:32:21.960 --> 01:32:46.600
and a, and especially that copy top essay, I find really helpful. I'm using it for a chapter that I'm working on for the book and thinking about how in in my case, waste sort of goes in and out of commodification, and things become singularly important at key moments. and so yeah, so it's useful for tracing those value registers. I think that's where it's similar. Right is thinking about how?

481
01:32:46.600 --> 01:33:04.470
in thinking about how in this case, you know, goods or yeah, have different value registers, and that there's variation across history, and also a concern which most of anthropology has because of the history of of indigenous and colonization that it's so

482
01:33:04.470 --> 01:33:18.820
attentive to is really attentive to hybridity. And so it's similarly attentive to that. I'd say one of the where I see some of the divergence is not necessarily one is more or less useful, but that I think transactional pathways.

483
01:33:18.820 --> 01:33:44.660
doesn't just focus on goods, but it also focuses on the institutions that organize those organizes, those and so in that sense I think it can be useful for thinking about institutions, and also as that relates to to status in a much more direct way. Where is the commodification? The biography of things as per the name right is much more focused on the objects themselves as they circulate.

484
01:33:44.660 --> 01:33:52.970
but I see it as a matter of, I guess perspective or what we're trying to understand within what we're doing.

485
01:33:53.090 --> 01:34:18.259
Yeah, I mean what this misses out on to take up the other questions the other question. I mean, absolutely. I don't think you know, it's it's a tool that I think can be useful for these types of questions. but it would be, yeah, really interesting to think about. I mean, you know, that's something that I'm that I'm working with is like, I find this really useful for my work. But clearly there are There are limits to the types of cases for which this can be

486
01:34:18.480 --> 01:34:43.270
it can be helpful. yeah, the reductionism, as you're asking that question. Shannon, as I was thinking. you know, there is this tendency, and I think, both on your question also touched on this, where it's like, I'll talk about a pathway, and then I'll say, Well, this is this community or this task right? And it can feel kind of reductionist in that way. I've actually found it useful, because in thinking about

487
01:34:43.300 --> 01:35:07.379
what types of how these institutions are built over time in a perceptual way. It can help us to also understand how things shift over time. And that's something that I've seen in my work on India, where? who does which kinds of work, and who has control over institutions, has actually shifted in terms of cast categories and sometimes subtle, but it's still really important ways, and it helps to keep up that dynamism.

488
01:35:07.390 --> 01:35:34.009
which addresses this question about whether there are status you can kind of destabilize the status orders. I mean, there's nothing like super radical. But you can see how I'd say the case where you can see like a like a threshold. A really key threshold in my case is where you have private companies that are being owned and managed by primarily upper cast people, and then they're

489
01:35:34.010 --> 01:35:54.330
relying on the existing institutions that have been built by low cast of it, and with some labor and they're using that in kind of a similar, I guess story of or in an analogous story to the land contract case to to a profit off of that.

490
01:35:54.610 --> 01:36:02.759
So yeah, so there's some shift. There are some minor shifts, but I wouldn't say there's been anything, Major, and I'll just give it to that. But thank you so much for your engagement and your questions.

491
01:36:03.580 --> 01:36:13.320
 Let's see. Was it

492
01:36:14.050 --> 01:36:18.410
engage with your question, which was very interesting. So I think, one.

493
01:36:18.540 --> 01:36:33.689
there's been this really fascinating convergence that's going on in, you know, in in the world of cognitive science. And I think, sociologists would also kind of see themselves in this this idea. But basically.

494
01:36:33.720 --> 01:36:43.079
what is memory for at its most basic and really what it is is memory is the reactivation of a previously experienced, you know, embodied state.

495
01:36:43.160 --> 01:36:45.789
and it's in the service of anticipation.

496
01:36:46.100 --> 01:37:02.010
Right? So we anticipate the moment, you know, seconds before it happens. And so it's happening. When we, as humans have now sort of built upon this, we have exacted it. We sort of you were using it for something that it wasn't originally.

497
01:37:02.170 --> 01:37:03.809
you know, used for

498
01:37:03.950 --> 01:37:13.340
is sort of extending that timeline a little bit. Right? So let's anticipate a minute from now, let's anticipate tomorrow.

499
01:37:13.570 --> 01:37:43.520
And so what happens is we build on our memory. We re reactivate these states. And as we go through our lives of experience. We also develop entrenchment in those activations, such that we're anticipating certain things over other things right? And what this does is, it adds to perception at perception. Right? So we are bringing meaning to that moment. That's not necessarily in that moment, because we're reactivating these states that happen to us previously, and that creates

500
01:37:43.570 --> 01:38:01.850
in the extreme. It can create illusions when we're not aware of it. But it can also be something that we are aware of that we're doing it. We can. We can try to suppress the moment we can try and suppress our bodies. And we can imagine things that are completely fantastical right, and and that can be an extreme.

501
01:38:02.180 --> 01:38:09.709
But oftentimes we're not necessarily aware that we are engaging in this at perception, that we're sort of bringing that memory with us

502
01:38:09.810 --> 01:38:30.099
to that moment. And so I think what I was, you know, and I was moving rather quickly, is that we? This is where this work really dovetails with practice, theory and sociology and dispositions is because thinking is dispositional. It's not just what we do. It's not just action. It is thinking as well. And so these consultants.

503
01:38:30.210 --> 01:38:49.649
they're thinking in these dispositional sorts of ways or thinking very entrenched ways. it's easy for them to think in these ways, and then it leads to situations where they have these omissions or these other ways of thinking about the economy, such as consolidation and concentration and ossification. you know.

504
01:38:49.650 --> 01:39:12.329
and instead they kind of go with what they feel is like. Oh, this feels good. It feels right. This is intuitive, right? I I'm anticipating the world that I think is happening, which is, you know. Oh, it's falling apart, and we have to move fast, and everything's chaos. but that would be But I really like this idea of engaging with illusion I hadn't actually like haven't had. I haven't made that connection. And now I want to think about that more. But thank you so much.

505
01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:42.000
Yeah. thank you for everyone's question. I think maybe some of them I can have more deliberation. But the maybe the others. I need to do more research on that. So that's my my apology. for the first question. yeah, I think your question is very important, because for weivers

506
01:39:42.440 --> 01:39:45.340
and we're starting to concept.

507
01:39:45.720 --> 01:39:51.769
this concept disappeared after 1920.

508
01:39:52.020 --> 01:39:58.349
But he revised this element into his idea of legitimacy.

509
01:39:58.730 --> 01:40:05.070
So which is a very worthy research topic about how you pretend

510
01:40:05.200 --> 01:40:08.820
To including the idea about consensus

511
01:40:08.890 --> 01:40:13.040
to become a domination or legitimacy.

512
01:40:13.440 --> 01:40:15.489
What happened during the process?

513
01:40:15.550 --> 01:40:20.170
I think it's a very big topic in Max Weber study.

514
01:40:20.430 --> 01:40:21.810
and and

515
01:40:21.830 --> 01:40:32.300
for for the information. Now, I just can answer with my knowledge about for the old version of economy and a society

516
01:40:33.210 --> 01:40:40.320
Max Weber always always emphasized the importance of community or

517
01:40:40.640 --> 01:40:41.460
huh!

518
01:40:41.780 --> 01:40:43.790
Social carrier started.

519
01:40:43.890 --> 01:41:07.829
So you will see the the content of that book. It's a community, religious community economy, community, family, community and political and the Eco community. So what is the importance, I think, is that he tried to make this kind of theoretical framework to become what he called. That is my sociology

520
01:41:08.490 --> 01:41:28.240
in one. Later he he sent to the publisher. he said, I have already find my sociology. It's that is a spatial way to find out the or to track the social group just like Ghana say the the

521
01:41:28.309 --> 01:41:33.900
sensational pathway. You will find a status group or different group, the effect.

522
01:41:34.260 --> 01:41:40.089
And the third point, I think I can reply, your question is that

523
01:41:40.430 --> 01:41:53.309
for the us, if older Max Vapor emphasize several function of this kind of order that can transfer from a community action to associate action.

524
01:41:53.320 --> 01:41:59.520
So in my paper, I just take some example for you, and he write about

525
01:42:00.270 --> 01:42:15.340
a consensus action beyond purpose. Action, consensus action conditioned by purpose, action consensually conditioned communal action. So he provides some types, but not very comprehensive.

526
01:42:15.830 --> 01:42:21.499
So maybe that is why he give up to elaborate this paper.

527
01:42:21.799 --> 01:42:31.300
But I still think that kind of example. Examples can provide some insight that what he want to say, is

528
01:42:31.360 --> 01:42:41.070
as if older performance, a very important function which transfer from A to which transfer one kind of

529
01:42:41.080 --> 01:42:45.749
everyday life holder should become a institutionalized older.

530
01:42:45.850 --> 01:42:58.009
That is my, I think so. It's quite different from the research on that performativity, because people performativity research, because somehow they lock the

531
01:42:58.340 --> 01:43:04.819
the indication of, or lay luck to indicate

532
01:43:04.930 --> 01:43:08.049
what kind of carrier strata to some seat.

533
01:43:08.110 --> 01:43:10.970
How transfer one kind of order to

534
01:43:11.320 --> 01:43:17.109
institutionalized order that would, I think, a very different way.

535
01:43:17.450 --> 01:43:20.860
and the the second question

536
01:43:20.920 --> 01:43:22.400
from

537
01:43:22.639 --> 01:43:40.760
Tana, I think, is also a very insightful common. But I have take this opportunity to say that in Weber's categorical as a he has totally different, older or different theories to put the concept of social group and social relation.

538
01:43:40.969 --> 01:43:50.540
So in the Convention, understanding, he told us one social action direct to the other, the other association direct to you and we.

539
01:43:50.879 --> 01:44:01.369
We have already developed some kind of social relation, and this social revision become a legitimate something else. And then, if you multiply

540
01:44:01.400 --> 01:44:07.959
or you dominate, you cut out this kind of relation that would become a very important social group

541
01:44:08.160 --> 01:44:15.959
in my university because I have a position in medical school. I always told Student that

542
01:44:15.990 --> 01:44:20.630
everyone can treat other people who feel.

543
01:44:20.660 --> 01:44:23.209
and I hope you seek. but

544
01:44:23.510 --> 01:44:26.459
only position is legally

545
01:44:26.590 --> 01:44:27.969
treat patient

546
01:44:28.219 --> 01:44:33.189
because they dominate the position and the patient relationship.

547
01:44:33.280 --> 01:44:38.710
This title group, this kind of professional group, dominate this kind of social relation.

548
01:44:38.810 --> 01:44:47.379
But in weivers categorical as a he didn't propose this kind of conceptual construction.

549
01:44:47.680 --> 01:44:53.309
He told us that social action always happened with social group.

550
01:44:53.440 --> 01:45:10.809
So the social group is not a concept of the dominant or manipulate like a social relationship. I think it's very different way to understanding the relationship between social group and social relationship.

551
01:45:11.250 --> 01:45:16.900
and that will help us to find out how the exchange

552
01:45:17.010 --> 01:45:22.430
relationship, or how the daily interaction

553
01:45:22.890 --> 01:45:27.879
always happen with interaction. always happen with social group.

554
01:45:27.900 --> 01:45:32.920
especially with Usc. In Max Weber's Historical research.

555
01:45:33.800 --> 01:45:35.359
He were told you that

556
01:45:35.560 --> 01:45:48.290
once you find out the track of some social group. You will know that that will have, that have ever happened, something that will have ever happened, some event

557
01:45:48.400 --> 01:46:03.309
not reverse, because in historical data you you cannot assume that everyone have economical exchange every day. No, only Those kind of a relationship support by social group can

558
01:46:03.420 --> 01:46:08.170
with some archives. And you can do this kind of research and find evidence.

559
01:46:08.300 --> 01:46:22.410
Yeah. So let's see that the second question and the third question, I think, may be related to just just 1 min. Okay, I think the my reflection of categorical essays

560
01:46:22.440 --> 01:46:34.989
belong to Max Weber study. They told us that if you find the idea or the future of this concept. You will read the other chapter of economy, and a society most mostly

561
01:46:35.360 --> 01:46:40.289
because you read a chapter one and a 2. But you cannot find any evidence.

562
01:46:40.350 --> 01:46:48.449
Another chapter. You will think that in this book is very ridiculous. So once you change the the head.

563
01:46:48.640 --> 01:46:52.139
and you will read the other part most mostly.

564
01:46:52.190 --> 01:47:04.020
Yeah. I think it is the the first benefit and the other benefit for contemporary sociologist. I think we are still trying to do more.

565
01:47:04.140 --> 01:47:12.720
And in the future, yeah, thank you very much. We're going to have to end it. There, let's give all 3 presenters a hand.

566
01:47:14.870 --> 01:47:24.399
lots of food for thought. We're going to take a 10 min break, and if you're still interested in learning about 5 more concepts, come back here in 10 min.

567
01:47:33.810 --> 01:47:47.269
Ekaterina Svetlova:  Hi, may I ask how slides will be moved for me? Because I will be presenting online

568
01:47:49.310 --> 01:47:50.010
the

569
01:47:50.510 --> 01:47:52.010
for sure.

570
01:47:52.770 --> 01:47:54.560
You want to answer the question, or.

571
01:47:54.810 --> 01:47:59.880
yeah. Hello! who is this?

572
01:48:00.100 --> 01:48:02.250
Ekaterina Svetlova: Yeah, it is Katarina. Hi.

573
01:48:02.330 --> 01:48:19.489
Hello! Welcome. yes. So Since you're online, please. you'll be presenting your own slides by clicking the share screen button just like a regular zoom. okay, so I can share my slides myself. Exactly. I know that I, as I as you to?

574
01:48:19.490 --> 01:48:32.950
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was really only just for people who were in person. And then only later, did they just say, Oh, actually, online people. Of course you can.

575
01:48:33.010 --> 01:48:55.799
Ekaterina Svetlova: because you have to share your own slides. We can. Yeah. So I showed you, I have to click in the right place. Otherwise I have to say every time next slide or whatever. Yeah. So so it's it's just like a regular zoom session where you can. Oh, all right? Cool. Okay. So now, I'll share my screen in a minute. Okay, yeah, please. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Have a nice break and see you very nice to meet you again. Yeah.

576
01:48:57.850 --> 01:48:58.000
Ekaterina Svetlova: Okay.