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Yeah, but I suppose we're not waiting any longer.

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All right. Hello, everybody. Thanks for coming to this beautiful session about responsible digitalization. My name is Otto Martin. Happy to be here and for hosting, and thank you all for coming before we start at me.

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Pay our respects to the country that we

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stand on and its ancestors. So, on behalf of everyone gathered, I pay respect to the spirit of country. Here in Nan, where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and present Korean nation, Northern Jerry boy Gurung, as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders

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maintain and promote the non aboriginal law customs and custodianship responsibilities for country and the people that country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

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I recognize the important contribution that first nations thinkers have made to sociology.

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recording challenges to a dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nations delegates in the room today for their contributions to knowledge

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in the discipline. So we have originally 5 presentations, but we may have lost one presenter on the way, so we'll see end of, and the second one didn't show up

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here in person, so we'll see if if that will change over time, but otherwise we'll stick to the plan. 15 min roughly 50 min. If it's just gonna be forward, and we may have more minutes left to, if it if it should, it be necessary. But I will pay attention to stick to the 15 min. So we'll give you a 1 min warning.

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Discretely or indiscreetly depending.

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The topic is, how can we not only critique digitalization, but also help develop in responsible ways. So it can help us to deal with problems and issues. And we have

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3 to 4 very interesting papers to present, and I think we start with Charlotte.

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and she has a pre-recorded presentation.

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And then

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Charlotte Bradley: Hi! Yes, I am. Thank you.

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Thank you, Charlotte, and will you be available? So we'll have the presentations fast, and then we have a Q&A with everybody in the play room afterwards.

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Charlotte Bradley: Is it okay?

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Charlotte Bradley: So I'll go ahead and press play on this video. Now.

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Hi, my name is Charlotte Bradley, and this is my talk on meaning and responsibility in large language models.

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So the received wisdom amongst those of us who are concerned about the social impact of language models is that the ticks they produce are fundamentally meaningless examples of this argument can be found in the academic literature, in the famous stochastic power parents Taper.

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and in popular media commentary, and Tib Chiang's characterization of Chat Gpt as a blurry Jpeg of the Internet. While I share the concerns about the social impacts of large-language models. And I agree that what they do with language is not the same as what humans do.

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I do not subscribe to the view that their outputs are meaningless. This is important, not just because the issue of meaning is an important one, but because it also has implications for the issue of responsibility

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Charlotte Bradley: whomever or whatever has the agency to to determine the meaning of a text must be at least to some degree responsible for it.

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On the dangers of stochastic parrots is a landmark paper in the field of ethical AI, which I have identified as paradigmatic of the general approach to meaning. Amongst those of us who are concerned about the ethics of large language models.

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Charlotte Bradley: I will begin today by sharing my understanding of the theories of meaning and responsibility that underscore the arguments made by Professor Emily Bender, Dr. Timnet, Gibrew, and their colleagues. In this paper, and in an earlier paper by binder and collar climbing towards inal you which stochastic parents builds on

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the basic argument made about meaning in stochastic parrots and climbing is as follows.

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languages, a systems of signs in which meaning emerges from the relationship between a and a linguistic form, eg. For example, sorry. A natural language expression like P. Wakawaka.

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and an individual's communicative intent to refer to something that exists outside of language.

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a small bird with a fan-shaped tail native to alter, or New Zealand large language models, though only have access to one.

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Hey? Is there an issue

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I need to here in Western words.

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Yeah, it's an issue with the sound system in this room, because the zoom is still working fine. I not sure what's going on here. I can go and see if the AV. Team can

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get some. Once you put dividends.

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Charlotte.

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Sorry we have some issues with the the audio.

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Would you be able to give the presentation?

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We are, we are. We are totally fine to have have some child laughter, no worries at all.

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Okay, just give me one. And then yes, absolutely.

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Charlotte Bradley:  So did you catch you that should I just pick it up from a particular point?

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Charlotte Bradley: Cool? okay and

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Charlotte Bradley: sorry. I'm just navigate, you know. It's always this trick of how do you get the?

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So I think it may be people that have all of the print.

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All right. So we we seem to have AV problems here in the room. That's not really. It's not the zoom.

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So how about we switch it around until the Eva team comes by. Maybe, Lauren, could you?

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So it we're going to switch it around and have a presentation here until the the team.

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That sounds good. Thank you.

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Let me

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them.

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Yeah, thank you very much.

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So how?

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this one does help.

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Just yeah.

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that should do it for now. Yeah, it'll fix it for a little bit, and I've just got to figure out other room to that a big fix. But this one hasn't got it. So I've got to figure out what's going on with this room. But yeah.

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hopefully, that's done something. So

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should we? Just yeah, just continue until it stops working again.

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Lawrence.

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Very much. I hope? I

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proposition. Thank you.

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That's it.

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Oh, wait! This is not now. It's not in the presenter mode. Okay.

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how is that?

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Hmm.

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I think the system

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are you presenting?

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Yes.

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it's

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so. How typical the title, right? We're in a bit of a situation. Well, we are in a bit of a situation here, too. I'm very happy to present here today the work that I do, together with Ella Havermouth's of the Vo. In Amsterdam.

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And this work that I present here today is based on

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 my ethnography of the Dutch police. For 3 years I did an ethnography with them, studying initially how the development and implementation of AI as particularly predictive policing was changing police work inside and outside of the police police station

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and part of that was one year of full time, and not only with the police officers in the street, and that is also what I will be presenting about today.

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And if you look at police work, I would like to come set to the stage with a a quote a quote that identifies how police officers face danger almost every day during their work. As one of them said, every stop can basically be my last. You just need one crazy person, Trigger happy, driving around with a broken tail light. If I approach the person about that broken tail light I could be shot only because they are in another head space.

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and if you listen to this and them reflecting on their work, you would assume that you see police officers often like this

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outside in the streets, protecting themselves and others from violence and to keep themselves safe.

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But what I saw a lot was actually this.

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police officers bending over on their phone completely focused into into that a specific digital space.

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And I was surprised by that, not only because I saw this, but also because during my atnography. The police officers themselves didn't really notice that this was going on. They thought at that moment that their smartphone was the the biggest thing happening to them. They were the front runners, actually having a lot of different police officers from other cities coming by, and other countries coming by because they were so advanced.

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and they were just very happy that they were to call digitized police officers. Where did this come from? This came from a more general shift towards data-driven police work. That is not only happening in the Netherlands, but it is happening all over the world, one

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in the Netherlands that started in 2,008

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as kind of a strategic change, an organisational level change with a lot of implications. For example, they developed a central police database instead of having it spread across the country. Now everything was saved in the same database.

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Their reporting system was digitalized. So no paper-based reports anymore. But everything submitted to the same database. And of course, part of my my, my core research, the development of AI systems like the predictive policing system that I also studied

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But in this case one of the most important changes was the implementation of that smartphone in the emergency response department.

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and that idea, that idea of the implementation of the smartphone, or, as they call it, Meios, more effective on the streets and Dutch is the same, so that this easy, Mere effective obstruction, they would say in Dutch but that that implementation of the smartphone and the application had multiple reasons.

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One of them was to alleviate the burden on dispatchers, because dispatchers, of course, were were kind of over overworked, trying to get everybody at the same place at at at different places, at the same time trying to also give them information and information was becoming more and more so that was Number one. Police officers can outlook up information themselves

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on top of that. That also got the idea into the police that police officers would then become more autonomous, and that had to do with capacity issues that are also all over the world. Police officers are inherently understaffed, and in the Netherlands they thought that it would then be a good idea if they won't send out police duos, but police on their own.

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E. C.

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but the reason number 3, and that is that is the most important one for this story is that the police management believed that if police officers had more access to information, real time in the street, that police officers would also be more safe, because what is better to keep yourself safe than having all the information readily

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accessible?

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That is also the the thing that I want to look into today. But first, if we talk about safety and people keeping themselves safe. there is

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not so typical. theoretical Framing around that this comes from human factors. I didn't know that it would be so applicable to the keynote of yesterday, but I'm very happy that he already introduced the idea of a situation. You can probably also see that I wouldn't completely agree with his idea of these situatedness, because I would say that situations are actually

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spilling over into the digital. But that is another discussion.

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Anyways, situation awareness is a very commonly used term in the human factors, human safety, literature, not to mix that up with such a situation. No awareness. Don't do that because they don't like it. If you do that situation, null awareness is a psychology term very focused on the individual situation. Awareness is more community focused. So people sharing this idea.

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and, as they would say, the ability to maintain a constant, clear mental picture of the relevant information and the technical situation, including friendly and threat situations

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on a community level that is important to remember. And there are 3 elements of that perception of the elements in the current situation, understanding the current current situation, but also understanding future states

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mit Ctl. And now I am a I'm in the information systems field. So talking about human factors is a bit far off, but it is also closely related to something that is more close to my my home, which is the belief, or actually the critique on the belief in Information one.

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as they would say this, believe in information is that a society in which a wealth of information is immediately available for use by anyone concerned seems to fulfill the modern dream of the knowledgeable actor who, freed from the shekels of ignorance, can think of him or herself, and for him or herself, and can undertake informed, responsible action.

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That is the belief. But it's also commonly critiqued in this field, and by saying that knowledge is not objective.

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but it depends on combining a large, a large amount of different inputs, large amounts of different information, also saying that there is a disconnect between, for example, the phenomenon and how it's represented. So also, not this idea of objective actor. But important again, for this story is that it's typical that the row of the body is completely overlooked when we talk about information and keeping yourself safe.

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Now that we set the stage, let me talk very briefly about the data collection. I already said that this is part. This was part of my ethnography. But actually, what is funny about this data collection is that it goes beyond it. Because during my atnography I saw the problem with the police officers, but they didn't see it themselves, so I had to take some time. Let it rest, and I went back in 2,021 to do follow-up interviews with the same police officers, to ask how they were thinking back 221

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at that moment about about about their smartphones 2 years after I left the field, and it was only then that they are. They were starting to reflect on actually the dangers and the downsides of it for them. While I was doing the ethnography, as I also have a quote, they often said, because I didn't tell them what I was studying. I only said, I'm interested in technology. And they were aware they all all thought that I was studying their phone, which I wasn't. I only was doing that 2 years later.

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but it took a while for them to be able to reflect on it.

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Now in general question-wise, we came with the question, what happens when a high efficiency tool is brought into a high reliability workforce? And that is also what I want to talk about with regards to findings. And then I have 2

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focus areas that are focused really on the embodied experience of the information of police officers in which we say that, on the one hand, their senses are changing, and the use of their senses are changing. On the other hand, also their posture is changing, and let me go into both of them separately.

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So the changing census is linked to the fact that it went from noise to silence for police officers. What do I mean with that. Why, you see that picture over there what they have here is a microphone

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and an ear piece. Normally they would share information before all the information was accessible on their phone. They share information through this earpiece by asking the the dispatchers, I'm in this area. I see this number played. Can you give me some information?

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So it means that there would be chatter going on the whole day over the same earpiece for all police officers to here who were in that shift so that they were able to understand of each other. Where are you? What are you doing?

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Mit Ctl, and what was happening. When they started using their phone, they could actually look up the information themselves. So they didn't have to ask anymore. And the dispatchers were relieved of that burden, yet at the same time it became very quiet on their shared information space 2.

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As they reflect on it themselves, I verbally shared my location with the Controller Room and said that I pulled over a car and shared the specific license plate number. I know that the moment I shared this information that there'd be a real chance that fellow officers would pass by because they would know

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like, Hey, there's Neil, and I'll just show him that I'm there, too, and that make me feel safe. You just know that they be around the corner that they'd be following along. So when you share the information verbally, you know that other officers will back you up in case that is necessary. What happened after one of the police officers said. It's a completely different world when you compare it to the old way of working verbally, requesting the information. And it's a godsend for getting info efficiently.

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but using meals thus have a side effect.

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And what is that side effect

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that they created a wall between them, a wall in which they were? Usually they were dealing with that noise. They were actually dependent on that noise, to keep each other safe and to understand the situation collectively, some in the situation, some around the situation, but together they created safety

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by using those phones and by making the the airpace go quiet, they created a completely walled environment for themselves, in which they couldn't depend on each other anymore, because nobody knew where everybody was.

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That was consequence number one.

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Consequence, number 2 is changing posture. If you think of a police officer, you probably think of someone standing up right. not using his or her arms, or having his or her arms in his pocket, but standing and looking around.

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and if you see the picture I put down, that's a pretty different type of posture. There are reasons for them using that posture, and that is because they can actually convey a specific authority without using authority in the first place, or using one

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violent authority. In the first place, as one of the police overset. It's really dangerous to walk through a large crowd in an outside corridor, for example, in an apartment building when the majority is really drunk. In that case. I made sure. I stood straight up and yelled loudly, Good evening, police!

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The music was immediately turned down, and the people spread in all directions. I could solve the issue without having to walk straight through the crowd. So using that straight up posture has a way of conveying that you're there, and to also keep yourself and the others around you safe.

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Now there are some consequences of using information for that posture, and I want to make a the station between what happens before they arrive and what happens after they arrive before they arrive? It's actually positive for them, because they are

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processing the information, knowing that they might go into a dangerous situation. You have the information already at hand, so I can adjust your posture before you go in. What happens after arrival is that actually, when you're in a situation, your cluster is changing and they cannot keep their eyes open at all different areas. Instead, they're super focused on their phone. I don't have the time to read this quote. So I just continue.

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because if you look at this, this, this and this difference, you would say, well, you know that the information and that smartphone isn't that bad? The thing is that police officers never know in advance what a situation will turn out to be.

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and I think that this quotes is one of the most powerful for that one in which one of the police officers said, It's nice on. It's information. But what if someone grabs a knife that can really be an issue? If someone responds a little heatedly, you need to be fully focused on them. Then you shouldn't be using your phone.

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So

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keeping yourself safe with the phone might be an ideal. Might be something that is theoretically. to keep police officers safe, but the actual situation themselves, and the interaction that they have in that moment is not giving them the opportunity to do that.

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Now, if I want to answer the question, what happens when a high-efficiency tool is brought into a high reliability workforce, I hope that these 4 points came across.

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and that is that safety, in the first place, is ingrained in well-established situation. Awareness, practices of workers, especially in the embodied practices that are happening related on the system of interaction that police officers

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and bet themselves in. That means that if you bring a technology like a smartphone with a lot of data and information into that system of interaction that whole system changes. You cannot just think that giving police officers a bit more information.

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It's the solution. Instead, you need to see how every node in that system of interaction is changing, and that means that unless you consider that the whole system actually police officers become more vulnerable instead of safer by including these technologies.

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That also means what I often get is a question, yeah. But doesn't that mean that they just need a Google glasses or so that they don't need that phone, but instead have it in front of their face. But I believe that it's not the design of the smartphone that is actually doing this. It's just changing. This posture is also just a symptom of the larger one

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changing system of interactions. So it means that it's not about. Let's design it in a better way. But instead of that, look at how the system of interaction needs to change.

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and if we don't do that. I believe that the stress of the system will be literally downloaded on police officers bags, so that we will not see that typical police officers of posture

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at all.

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That's it. Thank you for your attention.

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I me to closer. Thank you very much.

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So let's see if we have joined us online, when

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and how many? Thank you very much.

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I think we maybe we have a tribe of Charlotte online. And then we have a someone presenting in person.

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we should be better off

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alright. Let's see.

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Alright! See you.

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Shall you want to share your screen, Charlotte? Hey? There!

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Yes, I'm here. Did you want me to play the video or to present?

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Yeah, just a second.

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It's a real day.

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It's just this room, too.

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Try speaking. Now. Hi, can you hear me? Okay, this is very promising.

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All right. let's give it a go if you want to start your presentation sharing your screen.

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Charlotte Bradley: Yeah, so sorry. Should I play the video or the

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okay? Great.

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Charlotte Bradley: Thank you so much. All right.

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Charlotte Bradley: So you should be currently seeing a screen that says an influential theory of meaning in large language models.

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Charlotte Bradley: Right? I think. My. that's excellent. Okay, so I think that you heard me introduce these papers. on the basis of testic parrots and climbing towards natural language, understanding.

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Charlotte Bradley: And now I'm just going to pick up where I'm sort of explaining the argument made about the relationship between language and meaning in those papers. So in these papers, it's argued that languages are systems of, and just to explain it to my daughter playing with the fee set behind me. If you could do that clinging

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Charlotte Bradley: so languages are systems of signs, and which meaning emerges from the relationship between a linguistic form a natural language expression like he wake up, for example.

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Charlotte Bradley: and an individual's communicative intent to refer to something that exists outside of language in this case, a small bird with a fan shake tail native to alter it, or New Zealand.

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Charlotte Bradley: Large language models only have access to one side of this relationship through their training data the linguistic forms, without any direct experience of the world to which these words refer. Large language models cannot understand natural language

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Charlotte Bradley: without understanding large language models to not inform commuters of intense understanding, and then team are 2 sides of the same coin. Therefore, when a large language model speaks, it speaks and pure form a composing text. Yeah, no relation to anything outside its own utterance.

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Charlotte Bradley: and it follows that the teams produced by large language models are meaningless, and that any inference of meaning they're in is, they can.

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Charlotte Bradley: And so vendor. And Gabriel argue. The problem is, if one side of the communication does not have meaning in the comprehension of the in pleasant meeting is an illusion arising from our singular human understanding of language. And this is the theory of meaning. that I would like to contest

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Charlotte Bradley: so before that. What does the responsibility mean to test it carrots.

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Charlotte Bradley: Well, it's against this backdrop of a definition of meaning and understanding that effectively begin and end with the communicative intense of an individual human subject that 2 claims about responsibility emerge.

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Charlotte Bradley: First, that the role of the responsible technologist is to educate and protect the public against misinterpreting the outputs of large-language models as meeting again. Sorry.

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Give us a second

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apologies. That's okay, all right. Yes.

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yeah, we'll do.

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 Joe. Can you hear me? You so? My!

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Well, I think it's

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it's all. After that

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your image there is a sh, here is the

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we need to.

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Yeah, try meeting just the sound on there, and we can play it through.

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Yeah.

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yeah. Unmute this.

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Oh, yeah, right?

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Yes.

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Charlotte Bradley: Hi, are you still there?

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So just go on. Because I think we'll figure this out.

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Charlotte Bradley: Okay, fantastic. I'm going to keep presenting. And please interrupt me.

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Charlotte Bradley:  So just to reprise I've discussed the idea that there's a a theory of meeting underlying the stochastic parrots. Argument which is essentially that The outputs of these

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Charlotte Bradley: large language models are meaningless because the models have no understanding and cannot form communicative, intense.

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Charlotte Bradley: and On top of this theory of meaning emerges a theory of responsibility. And that theory of responsibility is that it is the role of the responsible technologist to educate and protect the public against misinterpreting the outputs of large language models is meaningful.

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Charlotte Bradley: and also that in the absence of mean, large language models create a responsibility vacuum, but only the develop position models can fill.

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Charlotte Bradley:  So on. The second issue of a responsibility vacuum, Linda and her colleagues argue that, quote the risks associated with secure it, but seemingly

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Charlotte Bradley: coherent texts are deeply connected to the fact that such statistics can enter into conversations without any person or entity being accountable for it.

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Charlotte Bradley: This accountability both involves responsibility for truthfulness, and is important in situation, meaning

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Charlotte Bradley: they like meaning, or rather with meaning responsibility, is found to ultimately reside with an individual person.

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Charlotte Bradley: From this perspective we can see that that the theories of both meaning and responsibility and specialistic parrots which I'm suggesting are indicative of the dominant ethical critique of large language. Models

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Charlotte Bradley: are essentially retrospective in orientation, and found that on an ideal of absolute knowledge or vision.

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Charlotte Bradley: To find the true meaning of a text, we must retrieve the communicative and of its human author.

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Charlotte Bradley: Find who is responsible for a text, we must likewise retrace a portal chain of action and effect. This is a form of responsibility as liability which arises out of a non causal relationship between the direct actions, or in this case, direct speech of one party, and it's a fix on or meaning for another.

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Charlotte Bradley: Now, academics in the field. Responsibility. sorry of responsible research and innovation have identified this model of responsibility as liability as the dominant model of responsibility in Western cultures.

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Charlotte Bradley: responsibility as liability can be contrasted, however, with an alternative form of responsibility as care and responsiveness for response ability, that is, who has the desire, capacity, or agency to respond to large language models

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Charlotte Bradley: without wanting to absolve the developers of large language models of any responsibility. I want to suggest that by granting them total response ability, we deny agency to those interpreting the outputs of language models, casting them as mindless and ironically mechanistic readers.

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Charlotte Bradley: stochastic parents and climbing presents a supposedly general theory of meaning

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Charlotte Bradley: but to me, coming from a background and literary fit theory, it seems quite narrow, and in in fact, counterintuitive. The idea that the meaning of a literary text ultimately coincides with its forces and teams have been, has been deemed not only old fashioned but also highly conservative for many years.

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Charlotte Bradley: so here is a sort of a a potted history of the development of the relationship between meaning and attention. and literary theory, which I'll skip over, but in the interest of time.

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Charlotte Bradley: But the argument that I want to make here is that Within the context of literary theory there is a spread in the sort of understanding of we are meaning lies from it goes from a belief that it resides with the authors and teams, to being held within a kind of autonomous text to emerging from the kind of shared understanding of a network of readers

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Charlotte Bradley: to networks of readers and books, and finally, to networks of readers, books and machines.

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Charlotte Bradley: It's from this kind of posthuman literary perspective. Sorry, my daughters just advance the slide on, meaning So this post, human literary theoretical perspective on meeting that Louisa More proposes an alternative

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Charlotte Bradley: cloud effects to inform our engagement with machine learning.

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Charlotte Bradley: So if Binder and her colleagues are calling for responsibility as liability, a more is for is calling for a complementary form of response ability which emphasizes uncertainty and the possibilities it brings.

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Charlotte Bradley: She argues that any a team to attribute responsibility back to a single source will inevitably fail, since no such single source of this.

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Charlotte Bradley: By this she doesn't. mean just that machine learning systems are comprised of multiple component parts. She also means to question the idea of an individual human subject with her agency resides

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Charlotte Bradley: in a Moore's view. demands for greater transparency.

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Charlotte Bradley: such as to reveal the source code and training data of machine learning mild models, invokes what Michel for Co. Has called the author function.

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Charlotte Bradley: So the also function is a concept term by the Co. Apparently in response to that declaration of the death of the author, to describe the social and institutional role played by the concept of the author as a subject position.

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Charlotte Bradley: and for those you, even if the individual author, let's call him William doesn't hold authority over the meaning of the text. The concept of the author.

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Charlotte Bradley: Shakespeare

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Charlotte Bradley: nevertheless exerts power over its interpretation.

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Charlotte Bradley: so of particular importance for a more is the way the author function lends an ear of unity and consistency to a text or a large language model. Through its association with the single responsible author.

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Charlotte Bradley: She argues that

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Charlotte Bradley: the rise and algorithmic power and society has been overwhelmingly understood as a problem of opaque and eligible algorithms infringing on or undercutting a precisely legible world of rights for loving to human subjects.

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Charlotte Bradley: In such a framing there is an outside to the algorithm.

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Charlotte Bradley: An accountable human subject to is the locus of responsibility, the source of a code of conduct with which algorithms must comply.

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Charlotte Bradley: the problem with this approach on the Moore's view is that it lends an ear unity and consistency to both machine learning systems and human subjects that they simply don't possess

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Charlotte Bradley: large language bottles. Sorry at the core, irrational, unstable systems that only present A. V near coherent to the reduction of the branching probabilistic output to a single sentence.

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Charlotte Bradley: Binda and her colleagues point to this. Veneer of coherence and lack of authority, of communicative intent is the fundamental difference between human and machine produced takes

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Charlotte Bradley: but for a more

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Charlotte Bradley: informed by literary theories that understand meaning and text is emerging from the complex network of readers, writers, books, and machines. This instability and uncertainty is a constituted feature of both meeting and responsibility.

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Charlotte Bradley: that she follows we not on this. I'm just gonna skip through here to my final point.

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Charlotte Bradley:  so as an alternative to invoking the author function which retrospectively links meaning and responsibility as liability to a single human author.

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Charlotte Bradley: and more proposes, we focus instead on the collective act of reading, writing of the kind that Barts and fish describe.

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Charlotte Bradley: which views responsibility, that is, the agency to respond meaningfully as being distributed through a complex system of human and non-human actors.

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Charlotte Bradley: and in this she draws attention to the contributing role of those who are literally conscripted into the writing process of algorithms through the use of their data. So I just want to end by saying, for those of us who've used Chat Gbt. And therefore voluntarily contributed back to the use in the ongoing fine tuning of the model.

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Charlotte Bradley: the question becomes, Are we not also partially, then, responsible for the outputs of future versions. and how my knowledge of that responsibility changed the way we interact with checkpoint moving forward, which is to say, our response ability.

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Charlotte Bradley: thank you

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Charlotte Bradley: hopefully. You caught some of that.

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Thank you for the opportunity to try and persist with that. I appreciate it

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all right. So thanks so much for bearing with us. We will get through the technological problems. They will not

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get in the way. Jerry, are you ready to thank you? Yes, thank you.

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Thank you very much for being here. Thank you for your invitation.

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yeah. Today I'm presenting a paper. We we submit with Kalpino calling called the criticizing and putting criticism into practice.

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And it's about the case of digital designers. So to designers who are most of the yeah, most of the cases Youix designer. So user experience designer, user interface designer or product designer, just to put a bit of a framework. So I'm a Phd student in sociology

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mit Ctl. And in France and Germany, and with, together with Karl, we made the same master degree in information, architecture, and digital design, and trying today to finish an essay suggesting to designers to adopt a manipulative stance, so this would be looped with the conclusion, one.

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At the time of the master in 2,016. There was some

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in the digital area going on about the

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A tension problem. So it was

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out of this thing yesterday we talked about the social dilemma. So how social networks

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try to put it in? Yeah, into a loop with algorithmic systems, with dark patterns. And so on. And we wanted to know how digital designers, so how the people

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that we are supposed to be behind those systems. We are also criticizing it and trying to have some posture about it. So we

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try to answer the question, what and how do designers criticize in the practice? And to this extent we let kind of a survey. We send it to 2,000 designers in France.

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and designers who were close to design communities. So the first they were, they participated or wanted to participate in an event called called ethic by design

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in 2,018, and they were part of a slack community, also called Asic by design. So we received 200 answers.

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100 were considered as good and fully answered, and from those 100 answers we led some interviews with 18 participants or 18 designers to have come another calling, this mixed method thing.

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And we started with this survey with and all this study with the question about the feelings. So we ask the designers, do you feel comfortable with the role and the image of digital design today?

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And we have more of a third neutral opinion, so 38%. The other third, I feel uncomfortable.

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And the next question is, do you feel comfortable in your daily practice as a designer.

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and here 44 feel comfortable. But again a third had a neutral opinion, so we were surprised about the number of neutral answers from designers

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who said they were close to ethical design communities or were actually inside ethical design communities. It's a one of the, let's say theoretical parallel is to

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call Hershman, and this is your. This was one of the starting points in this theoretical aspect. So the heirsman mattress you can see on screen. So we analyze the other answers and the interview rate.

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And so we, I would go, yeah, go through the these 4

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elements of the matrices of a voice, we ask the following question as a designer, if one wants to have a real impact, it is necessary to work from within large corporation and

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institutions.

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Here 55% of designers agree or strongly agree, and in

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in the, in the real world, in the everyday practice, it means to campaign for the designers who had this stance so to stay into the organization, but to adapt the discourses

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with the other actors. So, for instance, how we had Alexa from the interviews. He was probably still consultant in a major French company.

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She accounts the context of a mission of on digital responsibility. So inside the company. and what what was important was to choose a lexicon close to that of the management.

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and it was decisive in convincing the director of information systems and ensuring the success of the project.

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So what's interesting here is that designers? They don't. They never talked about unions or action groups. So yeah, whenever like, in

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doing some

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something close to like a small revolution. But they were creating guidelines, organizing workshops. And actually it was more than an activity of spreading the the world

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for exits resonates with the question as a designer. If one wants to have a real impact, it is necessary to build alternatives at the margins. Here 60% of the designers agreed.

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and again, designers were not so radical. So there were 2 kind of 2 options

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that popped out of the the interviews. The first one is that they want to leave the digital, but not to design.

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so that they have big confidence in the power of design as a discipline, but not in the judgment. So, for instance, gum user interface designer, told us, when I say, I want to stop having a designer job. I still want to maintain a designer stance having a design sinking, but not just creating interfaces or objects.

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And the second option is to move

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toward the public service. And this comes with a romanticizing public service. So say that they want to use design for good goals.

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yeah. The perception is very good, because this is a nonprofit activity, and the impact you can have on citizens lives.

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And here it's Adelaide telling us when I left my permanent job in a profit or rented company. I used to explain to people, my dream is to work for the tax authorities or the Welfare office.

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It may be a borrowing job, but it's something that everyone relies on

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some designers. They want to stay in. In their traditional organization. They may be profit organization, but they have activities outside them which are closer to their values. So they

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they, they will say that design is a political activity. 60% of the cases, and that design should be socially engaged, but they choose not to do it inside the organization, but instead, they are engaged politically in the local area. They try to

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yet to create some communities of informal and informal communities. They want to participate or to find some Ngos on the digital design or responsible digital

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to many activities outside. And then the last one of the mattress is the neglect.

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And actually, designers don't neglect design because they all of them. Actually, 90% say that design has an important role to play in shaping the world of tomorrow.

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So to come to this conclusion, designers like designers, but are skeptical about the digital side of design. for all the questions in the survey we had around 4 of no answers, and for 2 and 2 questions we had like, around 15% of your answers.

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And following the questions are, design thinking has to be beneficial for design. And so 40% of the designers did not answer this, and 90% of the designers in answer to the digital has been beneficial to the designed profession.

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So to put it in the phrase. So this criticism of a digital design is primarily the manifestation of the Lisa regions. So they were enchanted at the beginning of the Internet people. We, some of the people we interviewed are now 40 50, our designers. And so they had also this, a genealogy of the Internet like we could have we, we made a parallel in our article with hackers, so that

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the Internet, we had an enchantment of Internet and a disadvantment. And we kind of see the same with the design, and more generally about the Utopia of digital technologies.

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One of the answers, the

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big, bigger, probably big results in in the study is and maybe also Give some answer to the puzzle. Why so many designers do not have any opinion about their feeling regarding the digital design and the practices

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is the the of user centricity.

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in a previous study, also with Carl and all the colleagues, we found that it's a very consensual activity, so that all designers want to be user-centered so to be as close as possible to the users.

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And but the operationalization. So how designers in their everyday life

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try to be user-centered? It's very heterogeneous. So this is a collective posture.

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When you see designers coming together in communities and events. And so they will all say, Yeah, my my job is to be the representative representative of the users.

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But the implementation? How does it mean to be representative of users is very individual.

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So

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we kind of found this double H approach where the closer you designers are to users. And this is

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what's but of the main thing is, and probably why? Why so many designers have no opinion of feel uncomfortable about that. It's that

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if they are close to the users, they are less close, they are far from strategy considerations, so they cannot be with users and with managers.

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The more designers specialize in the activity, like in the interface, talking with users, leading some interviews, the less they have another opinion vision about what the service should bring.

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and the more designers pr themselves them than middle men, the less obvious their stance and contribution becomes. So because one of our interview is for this, yeah, in an ideal world where the project is finished, the the designers kind of fade out. So this is kind of difficult for proficient to say

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and controversial to say yes, that in an ideal world we won't need some designers.

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So what we suggest to designers is to step back from the user's satisfaction goes because this is about this objective, this call to say what is the most important is that the user will use the service and be satisfied with it, and that they also define some goals for themselves, for the profession. What do they want as designers.

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and so also to decide and defend the stance? So we suggested with Book 2. That they defend the manipulative stands to be manipulators could be also some question and some debate about it. But that, yeah, general question is that they clarify the purpose of design. Thank you very much.

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Thank you very much.

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because

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very fast. So we actually may have caught up in time. Let's see.

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Maybe that

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surprise on of the yes.

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see if I side right

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to try again.

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Oh, we have. The mic

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was off here right?

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Yes.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Am I audible?

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Yes, let's hope it works. We have some technical issues. If you

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: but I do have an apology to make. I am. I will not be able to make my slide presentation.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India:  is that okay?

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You just gonna talk. What? What? What are you suggesting?

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Yeah, I will go on with my presentation without the Powerpoint. Is that okay?

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I guess. Yeah.

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Well, then, let's give it a go. And we'll hope that we can have the audio working.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I do. You, can you turn on the camera? At least, so we can see you talk. It will be helpful. Otherwise we're difficult to pay attention.

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Is that a possibility?

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Hello, welcome.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Thank you. Due to network, issues, I may be

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: turning off, my video.

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 you're muted again, by the way, just

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Hello, everyone!

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: I'm I can you through my headphones. So just give me one sec to get it set up.

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So

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this is back up.

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What are we?

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All right, all right. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yes, yes.

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okay.

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yes.

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you just

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right.

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Right.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Hello, everyone. Can I start.

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Charlotte Bradley: I think you can. Such a true, they can't talk to us and have our speak at the same time.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Okay, thank you. Thank you so much.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Hello, everyone

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: I'm Dr. Chithra is. Nay, I am from the University of Kerala, India.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: My topic is about digital language brokering. The concept

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: here I have used is about

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: intergenerational support and how the intergenerational support can be enhanced through digital skills and how that can enhance the digital skills of older others and enhance in their quality of life

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: the paper aims to identify how digital language, brokering enhance the quality of life of order. Adults in India by bridging the gap of intergenerational divide

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: through intergenerational support and technology interface

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: to overcome the pandemic induced virtual shock.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Indeed, a Government of India launched the missionary initiative of digital India campaign in 2,015 to make India digitally empowered.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: 3 components are called to the initiatives. They are the development of secure and stable digital infrastructure, delivering government services digitally and universal digital literacy.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: The campaign aim to ensure availability of government services to all its citizens. Through digital interface, however.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: the new novel, under the pandemic situation, introduced a virtual shock to older adults.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: not only due to the shift of government services entirely into the digital remote, but also due to the reverse quarantine that abruptly transformed the nature of social gatherings, the daily routines, the rituals, the ceremonies, festivals, performances of daily purchases, livelihood, opportunities, social care and entertainments

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: into the virtual mode.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: In this situation digital divide forced a serious challenge for the older people. The research

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: we through the research. We tried to understand how this virtual shock was overcome by the order, others be the help of the younger generation.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: We used to mix it methodology and followed a descriptive research design and quantitative data was collective from 279. All the others

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: who used

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: digital devices and digital space

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: social media and Internet.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: full communication as well as there.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: for for all the instrumental and daily living activities. To a greater extent.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: qualitative data was collected using observation in that interviewing case study and narrative methods. We used bodies theory of habitats

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: to explain the dynamics of the digital world for order.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: as we all know.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: the digital skills

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: was found to be an important

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: skill in the new normal.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: But as far as the digital space was considered in and the older adult situation was considered in India.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: we can see that

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: most of the order adults, the divide devolved of

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: any technological devices and digital divide was more prominent among all the others

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: both in case of the non availability of devices and coverage of

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Internet and other technological advancements.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: However.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: when the new, normal arised people rise to the occasion and efforts that are made to

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: bridge. The gap of digital divide across India.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: and our study was conducted in Kerala. Karla is one of the most retreat state in India.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: and all the technological advancements as well as

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: the social indicators, for quality of life is higher in Kerala than anywhere else in India.

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: So

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Chitra. can you hear me?

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Hello!

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Yes.

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Can you hear me?

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Yes, I can hear you.

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Can you hear me?

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Hello! Can you hear me?

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Yeah.

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Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Hello!

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Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

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Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Yes, I can.

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All right. Sorry we have a little bit of a feedback here.

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so I'm sorry I have to cut it off, because it's really difficult to hear you, and to follow your presentation

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without any visuals and what to see anything, so I think we will just move on to the the Panelists discussion. I'm sorry. because people are just leaving the leaving the room here by the end we won't have anybody in the room left

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Sorry about that.

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so let's move on to the panel debate. and maybe we can have a have a discussion, and hopefully you should run out. You can also join it. Let's give it a go. Sorry about the technical difficulties here. We

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really tried our best to make this work all right. Well, thank you very much.

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Sorry about that. technology is not our friend today. Okay, so let's move on. How about

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the 2 of you? If you could join the panel and we can. Yes, yes, let's bring some positivity into this room, all right. And, Charlotte, you are still there as well.

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I just can join us putting the baby in front of some food. All right, are you? We don't can't hear. You see, if I meet the sound, and I'll just play it through my laptop the whole time.

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Yeah, I think we are just a few people of us. We can just listen here. Yeah.

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that's off already.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Alright. Yeah. So we'll just set up a little bit.

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My, there still are.

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I think just the speakers without Mike he is love enough, all right.

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Any questions.

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So sorry for being tired. I was so looking forward to this. Yeah, me, too. Yeah, but don't worry. I don't worry. I don't think that my current work, because that just goes up here, so you might have some technical difficulties, but I have a question.

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Yeah.

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Then you can walk up to the Ikea. All right. Thanks for bearing with us.

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Why do we have a feedback?

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okay, thank you very much, everybody. And again, sorry for this will. at least you will remember this session, for whatever reason. So thank you very much for for coming and for giving you a presentation. if there are no question I would like to open up to to all of you in terms of the theme being responsible digitalization, or how can we be more responsible? Well.

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funny intended you didn't expect anyone coming, and I picked up on

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juxtapositions, I think, is the best way to put it in terms of finding actors that are responsible or should be made responsible, but also in terms of location, right? So there is a where and who

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in terms of of, I think, your presentations sometimes. some of you. We are away from the where, as in situation as as as you, Lauren talked. But then we have a who like a designer, for instance, or Charlotte, you kind of mentioned

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The technologists may have a responsibility to actually explain. But then, also, there is this interplay between human and nonhuman, and I just want to invite all of you to maybe discuss about the role of digitalization.

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and how you think this interplay between.

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is there a where and who do we need that? Or is that actually not helpful to think about, where people, actors, and and locations, you know, to help make utilization more responsible.

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If that makes any sense

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on, let me mute here. We don't have a

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this. Okay? Well, because we can. People hear me. And that's all my his.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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NASA,

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so interesting question. And I started to think about that also. Yesterday I was in the keynote, right? Because of the situations and and and and the situated nature of of the digital.

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As I said in my presentation, I don't even necessarily agree with that's interesting that the situation becomes a broader momentum.

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 But when I think that the digitalization in my case shows is that

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there are different places and people and

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times and everything involved in my case keeping each other safe.

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 which is even more emphasized in this case. So I mean the interaction patterns between, for example, police officers and citizens have always been there. It's not that that it's now coming up because they are using the phone right before as well. But because this phone is kind of disrupting that

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interaction planning that they had before. It's showing how dependent for people who are on the behavior of the persons that they are talking to, but also on the behavior of the people that they are in at that moment, but also on the previous behavior of the people that they are going to, because they need to respond to a call, for example. So then

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I think that in my case, if I answer the question, then I'm not sure but in my case it emphasizes even more. But there are

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so many.

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so many things involved in creating a situation.

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Just for example, the walls that bound us to a specific location that creates a

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yeah. Yeah.

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about the responsibility I I fit for designers. There is this.

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there is a difference between to be responsible in terms of values. So they want to have some.

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They want to tackle like challenges.

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For instance, the climate change.

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They want to be more responsible in terms of energy efficiency, or what to promote a low-tech design, and so on and on the other side. So this is like they want to be not mutual.

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To define this position posture, and on the other side the job is defined as being mutual, and to be responsible for the users.

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And so.

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therefore, we in this middle stage in the.

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and they still don't have any solution but to get to Ok. But I probably think that if they go into one direction they will neglect the other one.

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So that the Us. Is kind of with responsive responsibility

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online us to send this one out

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the toilet. Do you have any?

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Charlotte Bradley: I yeah, I guess

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it goes like.

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Charlotte Bradley: that's okay.

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is I? I think I'm good to speak now.

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Charlotte Bradley:  yeah, I guess I just responding to this question of kind of the location of responsibility or the agents of responsibility. I guess I just a flag like I'm interested in the literature coming from the responsible research and innovation kind of space that.

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Charlotte Bradley: you know wants to differentiate a kind of

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Charlotte Bradley: old version of responsibility or liberal version of responsibility. That kind of attaches responsibility to an individual, and attaches responsibility to kind of absolute knowledge kind of retrospective, absolute knowledge. and in the, in in that responsible research and innovation spaces and desire to say, Well, how do we think about responsibility? Rather as a kind of distributed

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Charlotte Bradley: thing, and also as a kind of future oriented thing. and I guess I'm really interested in

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Charlotte Bradley: the role of public participation in in in

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Charlotte Bradley: in defining those kind of future visions, and that that is a kind of a taking responsibility for what is to come. without kind of full insight into to what will be

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Charlotte Bradley:  and I guess. yeah, I I I think

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Charlotte Bradley: that that's very appealing to me. And and just to clarify, I think.

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Charlotte Bradley: for people who are interested in this issue of responsibility. I I to make reference to this human geographer Louise, and More, who talks about the issue of kind of

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Charlotte Bradley: responsibility and in terms of there's a desire to to be able to point at one person who's responsible to who's responsible for a bad outcome, let's say But then, in fact, if it if it's ever possible, with absolute certainty, to point at someone and say

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Charlotte Bradley: you were responsible in a sense, responsibility becomes a kind of mechanistic thing rather than a than a human thing. so, anyway, that's a series of observations on that point. that I'm very interested in.

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No, thank you very much.

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Would you like to jump into a trap?

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There you go. Okay. Thanks. I. I have a question mainly to Lauren, and but basic, perhaps also to to to the rest of the the panelists. And thanks for addressing this issue, because I have to say I came here because I

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and based in Norway, where everybody is talking about responsible utilization. I I'm always a bit skeptical what it means, because it's so that kind of a

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yeah, it's like a grand narrative that it's a bit empty. But but I wanted to know from you, basically, if I found it really fascinating. You had this this very, very in-depth case study in in one very important professional context.

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2 questions being, maybe.

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do you have any knowledge whether this responsible digitalization of the police work, which is kind of connected to the responsible and not so responsible initialization of other services, because in Norm. We have this everywhere. I mean the Health Service Fire Departments police. Everybody follows basically the same track, and it was really helpful to learn that there are

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unintended, mainly hidden, or perhaps even hidden consequences. The first question is, is this something that we can scale up or or not? And the second question is perhaps also connected to the others.

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I mean. from what I from from from your your, your talk, I mean depending on how you define responsibility. You could say it's very responsible because it saves taxpayers money. or it's very irresponsible because it puts a police officer at risk. And you basically have to balance different responsibilities or

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goals. And perhaps you could just the lever bit on that. Yeah, thanks. Thanks.

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Where nurses are using mobile devices to get insight into the patients and doctors as well. But it's happening more on the nurse side, less on the doctor's side, especially in surgeries with champagne emergencies happen to a lot. It was a study on that. How how nurses become more and more invested in their normal and advice and kind of overlook their responsibilities during a surgery.

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So I think that that is definitely the case. I do think that there are certain boundaries there, I mean. So we have been playing around also with the idea that you know, if your body cluster changes, this has an information.

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it's not necessarily for police officers that need to keep themselves safe, but also for the culture to have a changing posture, and they are experiencing more money issues or whatever. So it depends on how far you want to go. With that I would say that the kind of point that I would like to make in this study there the boundaries are that it's people that I read

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themselves or others safe?

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and these are.

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yes.

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health care workers, etc.

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And there, yeah, I think you see it everywhere. But because this believe the information and the believe in digitization is across all each context.

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whether that's responsible or not, the next question, I think, in any case, if you really look close enough. What happens? I don't think you can say it's it's responsible even for the next wave.

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because if you see what happened in the case of police who are not struggling to control situations because they are

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on their own, which is already not helping, lacking an overview of the situation because they're on their phone trying to get the information. They can depend on each other. That means that they are also not keeping the taxpayer shape. So I don't know. Maybe it's it's it's saving a bit of taxpayer money. But it's definitely not saving taxpayer safety. So even there the responsibilities is is I would say questionable, and I think that

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that was also the importance of studying it in this way. And I like it. You said you. It's very hidden. This. This is not something that is

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immediately observed or immediately reflected on. It's it takes a while with the right to speak in, even for the police officers who are. So that's why I started with that. The police officers were so height they felt they were in a miracle in here, and I have the robo cops. We have our phone look at us. And I mean they were visited by police officers all over the world because they were so digital But the consequences of that is not very. I would say very

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so. Any question for this. Yes.

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you just let it. Okay.

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Charlotte, you cannot talk.

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Charlotte Bradley: Thanks. I just wanted to ask a follow up question to that.

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Charlotte Bradley: really around, does the additional information to other kind of responsibility factors in this like this. The additional information create a sense of responsibility to deal with

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Charlotte Bradley: that information which affected, like the sort of a to the workload in that way and enlarge the responsibility of the offices, and also does the additional kind of, I assume, cracking of police behavior enabled through these kinds of devices, also play into the responsibility dynamics in the sense that there's this kind of

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Charlotte Bradley: this, this record of responsibility.

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Charlotte Bradley: just trying to think through. Yeah, the multiple kind of factors of responsibility that it merged.

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Yes, absolutely. That's that's that you're spot on there. And of course, in this this story I focus mainly on the use of that information, and not necessary on the producing of it. The other side of of of my research is the police officers producing this kind of information in the systems and what that means for their work. And, for example, they spend one third of every shift on average. Now, at their computer writing reports, instead of outside

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saving society, catching feeds, or whatever what you would imagine police officers doing so. It is a very direct consequence for the pack of work that they are doing, and on top of that they also get into conflicts about what do you report and how you report it? What would normally be, you know you write it down, you don't write it down, and then nobody cares. Now everything is registered, everything is kept for years. Of course you have all the in Europe and Gdr. Which

492
01:19:08.150 --> 01:19:17.559
kind of limits it. Yet at the same time, a lot of these data points are kept to 5 years, and if it leads to repetitive crime or repetitive

493
01:19:17.590 --> 01:19:29.320
notifications to the police who are kept in the system, so they are very aware of their responsibilities there. So it leads to new kind of pensions and issues also for the police officers

494
01:19:29.330 --> 01:19:41.339
to. With regard to what do you actually report? How do you describe it. What do you write down? And people can see it than what they were used to. So there are many, many issues beyond just

495
01:19:41.440 --> 01:19:47.590
the use of information in the street in the specific situation. Yeah, absolutely.

496
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:53.070
Yeah.

497
01:19:53.330 --> 01:19:58.770
You see.

498
01:20:01.050 --> 01:20:04.690
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Yes. Hello. I think I am audible.

499
01:20:04.850 --> 01:20:19.049
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: And I would like to share my opinion. when we talk about digital responsibility, we find that there are lots of issues and inequalities with regard to the accessibility.

500
01:20:19.290 --> 01:20:26.960
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: security, and affordability, not all population section are able to use the digital

501
01:20:26.990 --> 01:20:28.750
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: interfaces

502
01:20:28.860 --> 01:20:41.440
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India:  as they are intended to be. So the we in in our study and in our country. We have seen that there are many of exploitations and abuses happening

503
01:20:41.750 --> 01:20:48.389
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: and the digital technology and the devices are not user friendly for order adults

504
01:20:48.410 --> 01:21:01.460
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: and cyber crimes and the financial exploitations are concerns of all the others in throughout the world. I think so. It is very important to think about digital responsibility

505
01:21:01.460 --> 01:21:19.420
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: and how we can use all these technological interfaces, user, friendly, cost, effective, affordable as well as enhancing the quality of life of all the sections of people. And we have to talk about inclusivity when we talk about digital responsibility.

506
01:21:19.550 --> 01:21:20.480
Dr Chitra S Nair, University of Kerala,India: Thank you.

507
01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:31.750
Okay.

508
01:21:33.260 --> 01:21:35.319
thank you. That's a question for

509
01:21:35.490 --> 01:21:42.450
drawing in Charlotte a challenge. You you talked about the responsibility of feeding the tragedy and the conclusion, and so that

510
01:21:43.420 --> 01:21:51.359
of it will or it's already engaging the users. This is one also a bracken.

511
01:21:51.400 --> 01:22:04.990
I agree with that. So one of the results of my Phd. In many case, studies include why, I'm pretty sure that algorithms engage your users. And what's interesting here, there are a long way to to that. You said that

512
01:22:05.650 --> 01:22:06.870
I have to.

513
01:22:06.910 --> 01:22:16.450
I made a connection. I'm not sure if it's one. But it's good I want. Your opinion of that is that it's a more increased conservative, the more so the vulnerable

514
01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:38.030
here. Actually, the policemen are so, and in the case of tranquility, it's also the vulnerability to have our proper opinion of education to be responsible for the use of this gigabytes. So, for instance, know that when we ask references

515
01:22:38.160 --> 01:22:41.030
sometimes the most of the time quickly. 1 1.

516
01:22:41.160 --> 01:22:43.669
You need to have this feeling.

517
01:22:50.140 --> 01:22:50.810
Yeah.

518
01:22:51.370 --> 01:22:53.499
I think it should be fine if they just want to

519
01:22:53.640 --> 01:22:57.480
like coming to talk, it's just that when they try it all on.

520
01:22:58.610 --> 01:23:06.620
Yeah, okay, I'll give it a go. I think

521
01:23:07.260 --> 01:23:13.940
Charlotte Bradley: I think you were asking about the responsibility of users. Is that just to quickly summarize with that sort of the gist?

522
01:23:19.530 --> 01:23:34.700
Charlotte Bradley: But it by the systems. Yeah, I mean, so my Phd, research, I'm interested in the theater is a model of of engagement. and to take an example that that people are

523
01:23:35.060 --> 01:24:01.319
Charlotte Bradley: often familiar with, you know, in in virtual bricks, epic, theatre, and the idea of the alienation effect, which is a kind of a design response to how you design an interaction between an audience and a and a theatre show that that seeks to draw attention to the construction of meaning on the stage to kind of reveal the the puppet strings. If you like to show how meaning is constructed in that context. And I think when I think about

524
01:24:01.700 --> 01:24:07.699
Charlotte Bradley: what it mean, what it might mean to create, let's say, a responsible interface with a language model

525
01:24:07.710 --> 01:24:14.340
Charlotte Bradley: my interest in what? What can the designers of those systems learn from

526
01:24:14.390 --> 01:24:23.010
Charlotte Bradley: histories like the history of theat to to think about. Yeah, the night. Sure, like how you can create a kind of

527
01:24:23.340 --> 01:24:45.610
Charlotte Bradley: I mean, that's a sort of didactic example with with the but but how? You can create a situation in which you are encouraging people to think about how they are making meaning with their digital devices. and the role that they play in that, and the sort of scope for creativity. I guess if that makes if that makes sense.

528
01:24:48.680 --> 01:25:09.570
that's a fascinating case. By my, I don't know just personal interaction here now. Well, I don't know if you're aware of all the homes. So work. And Michelle Anthony might be interesting, because that's also about the and the influence of technology on that. So

529
01:25:09.570 --> 01:25:23.080
it might be interesting to look into. But I like that. Reflection is increasing the responsibility. At the same time.

530
01:25:23.190 --> 01:25:24.550
I didn't.

531
01:25:25.150 --> 01:25:40.450
and thank you for that.

532
01:25:41.130 --> 01:25:47.219
based on that. And I'm thinking, like, why, why is this the case? And I think that

533
01:25:47.660 --> 01:25:53.560
the responsibility in the case of this digitization is so focus on the individual.

534
01:25:54.020 --> 01:26:05.550
It's so focused on. Police officers are responsible to deal with the situation, and it overlooks that we

535
01:26:06.020 --> 01:26:11.210
there are human and longer. One elements in their situation.

536
01:26:11.220 --> 01:26:12.440
Give me this.

537
01:26:12.520 --> 01:26:38.380
So if you give everybody, if you give one police officer a lot of it doesn't mean that it necessary to me becomes a safer place. Instead, you land all the responsibility on the political term of Yeah, and pushing away, in a sense from the responsibility of others. So, instead of increasing and helping people become more responsible, they actually become well.

538
01:26:38.470 --> 01:26:41.849
the others to become more irresponsible. You use them

539
01:26:42.200 --> 01:26:50.689
or not. It's an illusion of the more information you have, the more responsible you can be.

540
01:26:51.020 --> 01:26:55.469
And that illusion is definitely not helping, especially in cases where it's about safety.

541
01:27:22.630 --> 01:27:23.869
a different type of

542
01:27:23.940 --> 01:27:30.419
assessing ability, because we have to evolve, to be able to survive in this kind of world that we could.

543
01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:37.819
So I was wondering if there is anything that you read or you know about, in terms of how

544
01:27:38.020 --> 01:27:43.699
that right now we are in a way, in how to do with our devices

545
01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:48.909
and the level of the information. That's the wisest.

546
01:27:49.320 --> 01:28:06.519
There may be some type of autobiological, or, you know, a change coming that could allow us to to keep up for what we're going to happen because we walk a lot of moving problems which people overload us even more will just kill us right away.

547
01:28:09.410 --> 01:28:12.730
First, kids. Yeah, I like that. I think

548
01:28:12.890 --> 01:28:19.320
I just wanted to put it out there. I think I think it's a very interesting

549
01:28:19.440 --> 01:28:21.190
to say that this is

550
01:28:21.250 --> 01:28:32.489
the evolution moment in terms of us, not being able to do crazings at the same time, and having all those issues that while still being in love with technology.

551
01:28:32.820 --> 01:28:37.619
And I'm just wondering if you will be able to incorporate it somehow for human.

552
01:28:37.980 --> 01:28:41.389
But it also just

553
01:28:41.960 --> 01:29:04.060
yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking a sense. I mean, you see it with other technologies as well. Right, if you become more accustomed to it, and it comes more natural in the sense you can expect that to happen to to the information technology, too. I think you already see that if you see how easy the kids and now use a new ipads, etc., and how much

554
01:29:04.260 --> 01:29:12.140
my my generation had to learn to do that. And now, when you grow up with them or so there are, of course there are.

555
01:29:12.250 --> 01:29:14.719
We are growing into that

556
01:29:15.570 --> 01:29:36.090
yet. At the same time I would say that it's not only that, so it's not what I said at the end of my presentation that it's not just a design feature to say, Oh, it's it's 2 that's not really useful or usable. We just don't rule glasses, and then it works better. I don't think that that is need to be.

557
01:29:36.240 --> 01:29:39.170
The real point is that

558
01:29:39.320 --> 01:30:09.749
 for me the whole system in the interaction is overlooked. So the fact that police also have this information can. I'm not saying that it it cannot potentially make them safer if I know that I go into a situation where someone is potentially silent. Then, of course, it can make you safer if you know that beforehand, instead of knocking on the door, and the urgent opens with the gun in your face. Right? So that is, of course, this kind of information can help you. The point being is that

559
01:30:10.040 --> 01:30:33.650
to create a situation of safety, which also also depends on the citizens that they are talking to, and they are not included in this in both right. So if these also become more accustomed to using their phone, it doesn't mean that citizens or criminals, or whomever or whatever is related to that is also adjusting. So it requires.

560
01:30:33.930 --> 01:30:47.800
I would say, if we want this, we want to make this work. It's not up in retailers getting used to information and their phone. It's also citizens getting new students. And it's the whole

561
01:30:48.470 --> 01:30:50.690
ecology.

562
01:30:50.780 --> 01:31:07.639
Oh, it's it's it's first replacing something that was there, right. It got the instinct on the Philly's not used to that right just to know the supervised thing that it's why did they come you to die? And that's an organ that something we developed over the years because we don't, how we delegate it, for as Americans.

563
01:31:09.060 --> 01:31:09.970
Sorry

564
01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:11.639
you just

565
01:31:12.280 --> 01:31:13.899
so I could go ahead.

566
01:31:13.920 --> 01:31:16.540
That is because I will find this

567
01:31:17.070 --> 01:31:40.869
and the in common comment. I just find incredibly dangerous to this idea that they have kind of a evolutionary role in because of information. For the first part, there's no evidence on the national side side, or we all this to what's happening. I mean, it's a special thing. I think it's special to you. I mean, that's why, you know, research is important. I mean information overall. The response normally is design right interfaces.

568
01:31:40.980 --> 01:32:01.209
So what we need to do is, it's it's it's it to be the first time that we have the problems, not except finding information. But select the information that. And that's what we're not doing if someone else is doing it for me. But but what's the last time you went to to this page of Google, you know. But the question is not why I'm in this list.

569
01:32:01.500 --> 01:32:05.429
It could be an entity if it could go down for but for

570
01:32:05.550 --> 01:32:08.930
or on time number of this, why am someone be signed

571
01:32:09.270 --> 01:32:19.340
the Google response to our searches in a certain way? Because if they implement a hierarchy for us, the same is true for a lot about them. I think that's the question.

572
01:32:33.540 --> 01:32:45.310
Like, Google, yeah, we'll just not like you said something on Google. I think it's able to scroll down.

573
01:32:45.560 --> 01:32:50.380
use it. They designed to help us cope with the amount of information you can't

574
01:32:51.370 --> 01:32:57.480
process so somebody else makes it. This is what you should read. This is the bit of information I draw attention, which is the

575
01:32:57.660 --> 01:33:01.920
forward me, I mean, understandable and inanimous, but

576
01:33:02.080 --> 01:33:10.089
also responsible for responsibility. But why is it designed to certain why I am. I'm told I should look at this. Not in there.

577
01:33:21.400 --> 01:33:28.190
Let me just follow up with people online. Can you hear the conversation here when people don't come up for them. A mic.

578
01:33:30.920 --> 01:33:36.650
Okay? Good.

579
01:33:36.850 --> 01:33:41.989
Like. It's very best if you don't talk up at this thing, but you can come and you can hear it.

580
01:33:44.820 --> 01:33:45.830
Yes.

581
01:33:47.510 --> 01:33:59.329
we are so good. The next microphone, the next microphone

582
01:33:59.470 --> 01:34:04.780
just before. But just before we had back to the design research. I wanted to

583
01:34:05.120 --> 01:34:26.439
add to that, because what what I'm seeing from like because I'm I'm working on like smart home research and voice assistant stuff, which is very close to what you 2 raised, because they are currently positioning them themselves. And I'm not. I'm not saying that they're going to be successful with this. But they're attempting, like Amazon and Google and are trying to be.

584
01:34:26.650 --> 01:34:50.219
Make these assistance like these Meta assistance that process information for you that. Can that alleviate some of this information overload to you? Because they they see exactly this problem. And it is. It's it's in the advertising already. As I'm not saying it's working, but that's what they're trying to do. And then that sense they are trying to establish themselves as like these responsible, not not responsibility.

585
01:34:50.220 --> 01:35:03.469
But like as these trust brokers, you know, they they're like, they they say that this is this is the thing you're not. You're not any more scrolling 5 pages of Google. But you have, like one answer given to you by your

586
01:35:03.470 --> 01:35:09.560
voice assistant, or some or a digital assistant. It can also be text-based, right? It doesn't have to be voice.

587
01:35:09.560 --> 01:35:20.560
but in in that sense I think that's like again, these companies being in a mix of like trying to feed the persons who are responsible. responsible to

588
01:35:20.820 --> 01:35:25.680
governing our our information information flow, which is very interesting.

589
01:35:25.900 --> 01:35:26.750
Yeah.

590
01:35:35.290 --> 01:35:41.920
the basic of the protein by Google. This is a whole research of the results that

591
01:35:42.320 --> 01:35:47.800
if you have so many results and pages.

592
01:35:48.180 --> 01:35:59.300
people just click, 90% of the people click on the 3 or 5 first. So there is a balance between here. We create to give people the information. But I didn't aside

593
01:35:59.460 --> 01:36:03.979
the tragic bt of voice. The access stuff will actually just

594
01:36:04.160 --> 01:36:08.889
and reproduce their own behavior of picking on the first.

595
01:36:09.540 --> 01:36:16.789
Yeah, this is probably some reflection that the designers should have in what they hide and what they show

596
01:36:17.130 --> 01:36:20.090
the one in the other study we had it.

597
01:36:20.580 --> 01:36:36.349
You can have an algorithm to recommend music, and it will be as close as possible that the user needs. But if you put the algorithm in the labs, Q pages will never be used to put it on the front.

598
01:36:36.430 --> 01:36:44.519
and everybody would click on it. So it's not about how you print the information and how which efforts that you give to the users

599
01:37:02.640 --> 01:37:08.490
that she has to go real quick. So thanks for being with us, Charlotte.

600
01:37:09.140 --> 01:37:11.569
and she's already gone. Yes, right

601
01:37:13.950 --> 01:37:28.350
now, because so that's also a question about response to that. So what kind of which continuity do you think? There you leave it? Ultimately you don't have to go through whatever is available about the version or a situation, knowing that they probably don't have the time.

602
01:37:28.380 --> 01:37:32.510
Or are you going to make a decision for them up front?

603
01:37:32.840 --> 01:37:37.020
One of the new changes to this system now is that

604
01:37:37.670 --> 01:37:54.109
of course, this is also very open to the readers. Right? So for police officers, especially in qualifying discussions that is happening now on these these students, because you can see basically everything. So now they add this warning to to me. So today.

605
01:37:54.110 --> 01:38:20.359
a search for someone 5 times in a week, and it had no actionable results. But now they get A warning like this person has been sure that it has been has been looked up 5 times this week. Are you sure you want to check up on this version again? So it's it's So there are different layers of responsibility to watch the police for those of the who are the designers, the users.

606
01:38:20.840 --> 01:38:22.890
But

607
01:38:23.610 --> 01:38:34.090
yeah, I think the question of information. And how much information? What do you mean? That is a very broad, complex

608
01:38:35.220 --> 01:38:36.140
question.

609
01:38:37.020 --> 01:38:40.820
That's again endlessly stood

610
01:38:41.280 --> 01:38:53.759
 for one from Dr. Nair online. trust is a major issue when it comes to users, providers and intermediaries. So what about updating and strengthening cyber laws?

611
01:38:56.160 --> 01:39:00.530
yeah, what about like update and strengthening the cyber laws and stuff.

612
01:39:01.580 --> 01:39:11.449
Yeah. So that's a big link to, for example, what I just said that they now had this trigger warning on this news morning that this person has been

613
01:39:11.530 --> 01:39:17.619
that's been checked most of the time, with no more reason for no Al of them.

614
01:39:17.959 --> 01:39:19.810
so I think that

615
01:39:20.530 --> 01:39:25.950
especially because of this kind of system that needs to be continuously reflected like.

616
01:39:26.200 --> 01:39:27.539
And does it help

617
01:39:27.850 --> 01:39:34.819
to limit what you can see? Or, on the other hand, we need to get more freedom.

618
01:39:34.860 --> 01:39:44.070
We need to do things up front or not. So that is, yeah, I can only agree that this is an ongoing

619
01:39:44.799 --> 01:39:45.690
effort

620
01:39:47.459 --> 01:39:48.309
is

621
01:40:19.809 --> 01:40:23.940
is the next step. If we talk about the responsibility.

622
01:40:24.100 --> 01:40:28.479
what do we need to open up? Which can do? We need to open up

623
01:40:38.000 --> 01:40:42.919
for me that the civil society seems to be the only place where it

624
01:40:43.520 --> 01:40:56.179
so this is something that I'm trying to preach also, in terms of, like my little field of urban sociology and smart city concepts, and how it's being

625
01:40:57.290 --> 01:41:03.990
well dominated by a certain logic that I don't like personally, and I'm afraid of.

626
01:41:04.110 --> 01:41:10.240
So in that respect I'm I'm trying to work very closely with urban movements and try to

627
01:41:10.719 --> 01:41:26.239
make them realize that technology and digitalization is something that they should reflect upon and try to develop their own tools, or at least really monitor very closely what is going on. So I've been thinking that this is

628
01:41:26.400 --> 01:41:38.769
why the responsibility is so important of a concept. And that's why I thought this session is really great. We have to start talking about this and and find. So

629
01:41:39.250 --> 01:42:03.270
to make this short. I just really think that civil society actors are the ones that we should maybe target and try to strengthen in terms of giving them tools and understanding of what is going on and what is, what type of struggle they may be, and making them realize how many layers of problematic interactions are on going within public sector, for example, as you are showcasing.

630
01:42:08.580 --> 01:42:09.950
of course.

631
01:42:10.650 --> 01:42:16.190
I mean, it's probably not the answer that people people want to hear. But I would say we should abandon the term.

632
01:42:16.270 --> 01:42:35.729
not not, I mean, not because of the responsibility. A responsive digitalization is, I mean these 2 problems, so that both terms are in the singular. And I really, I mean, if you look back at early literature on on digital sociology, if you were like, Billy mocked. And the Netizens and all this stuff, I mean, it's really, it was really optimistic

633
01:42:36.080 --> 01:42:44.799
digital technology as the potential to transform democracies and civil society, and that's all absolutely valuable and nice.

634
01:42:44.830 --> 01:42:58.729
But if you compare the early stuff in the 1990 s. To now, and it didn't happen right? I mean? It's it's not. I mean, it's the opposite. We talk about post factual spaces, we talk about stratification and so forth. So I I personally believe that

635
01:42:58.830 --> 01:43:04.810
we have to accept that digital technologies, like many other social changes, have an impact on societies, and there are several

636
01:43:05.030 --> 01:43:30.440
aspects of the digitalizations of public services, of private life, of economies, and so forth, and they're not the same. I wouldn't by what we expected. And then, of course, the conclusion is, there's not one responsibility there and a lot of responsibility. Civil society certainly plays a role. civil servants play a role corporations, Ferro, international organizations, politics player. So I personally. That's why I came here. Because I I find this.

637
01:43:30.630 --> 01:43:33.269
I find it interesting that we we still stick to this.

638
01:43:33.510 --> 01:43:53.160
this idea, that we have one transformation that we call called digitalization. Then there's this one. I mean, it should say a responsibility is obviously it's a normative struggle. I mean, I don't know what you consider responsible. But it must. It might not be the same that I do. And between societies and different groups within a society, it's definitely not the case. So I would say we should talk about

639
01:43:53.230 --> 01:44:01.570
responsibilities in digitalization processes which sounds very UN catchy. Sorry

640
01:44:06.030 --> 01:44:07.969
you have something to say.

641
01:44:08.230 --> 01:44:19.800
No devil's advocate I'm wondering about like my research has been.

642
01:44:21.160 --> 01:44:42.309
They have been based on the the research they've been doing in digital platforms have been like more and more pessimistic in that sense, in this stuff that we've, we've been writing together about how the development of the digital economy, how it you know, we we? We are in a platformized world right now, where the like several

643
01:44:42.640 --> 01:45:04.639
and not that many gateways into the Internet and kind of established ways of or gentrified digital practices about what are the correct ways of using the Internet? You are you using? You're looking for accommodation, you, you go to your B and me. You are looking for a rile. You go to uber you. You look for information. You go to Google at future, etc. So in a world where

644
01:45:06.120 --> 01:45:11.979
what the digital means for most people is interacting with with these

645
01:45:12.010 --> 01:45:21.350
services. Do we have civil society capacity to talk about responsible digitalization.

646
01:45:21.900 --> 01:45:41.070
or have the ecological niches that have been there that allowed spaces for that kind of debate? Are they eroded now, or, you know, can we build them? Or is that a kind of public sociology of the digital out there as a job that we should pick up on

647
01:45:46.840 --> 01:45:51.439
any other comments? Last word? No?

648
01:45:51.960 --> 01:46:09.969
Oh, shit I was. Oh, times I'm sorry, guys. No, I mean, there was a point of having that bring that up in order to get a debate going about responsible responsibilities, and so on and so forth.

649
01:46:09.980 --> 01:46:13.600
my personal stake in this is.

650
01:46:13.910 --> 01:46:39.570
it's following up to what what you said. Also, if you bring up ecology. And that sort of stuff is is the worry that we're getting, whether you're losing flexibility to maneuver and adapt And it's this quick, fixed thinking that, I think is is is primarily a problem that just creates new problems which we try to solve the same way as we used to. Yeah. So as as Charlotte and fortunately isn't here, this, okay, we solve this with more data

651
01:46:39.570 --> 01:47:06.679
that creates problems if we create even more data, although that is probably the the issue here, to begin with, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. So what do we do? We bring in what deck I get? And just I think it's that quick thinking that got us here solved certain problems. But then, of course, at the cost of the marginalized and invisible, or you know, literally, as you said, literally, the stress being downloaded on physical bodies,

652
01:47:06.880 --> 01:47:14.869
and and and moving away from that to talk about the root causes somehow, and how to do it, I have no idea.

653
01:47:15.350 --> 01:47:18.919
but that's certainly something to do with more flexibility and adaptability

654
01:47:19.360 --> 01:47:25.779
of ecosystems rather than pointing at individual people, because Mark Zuckerberg can't help us, even if he would want to.

655
01:47:25.840 --> 01:47:48.600
Right. Oh, poor Mark! He is benefiting from it, but he certainly is not because he will. He will make AI work for us now, so that we will be all saved, all right, fantastic. This worked out fantastic. Who needs on my presentation, if we can thank you so much, guys, thanks for sticking with us here. Thank you.

656
01:47:48.730 --> 01:47:55.930
And thank you, Cal, you want to hear of today. Thank you so much. Thank you.

657
01:47:58.880 --> 01:48:00.270
Like, I,

658
01:48:00.370 --> 01:48:27.340
what didn't happen? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's nothing to be done about that. All right. Thanks. Everybody online. sorry again for all the technical problems and stuff. love to have you here, though I hope this was interesting. So have a lovely rest of the day, and see you hopefully for and out of the sessions. All right, bye, bye.

659
01:48:28.280 --> 01:48:29.000
no, it's everyone. Second bye, see you, everyone.