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So well, thank you for

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being here after these

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tiring day in this tiring week

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as well. So thanks for the courageous ones

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to be to be here for this session that is devoted to South South architectural intellectuals, changes so networks act as theories.

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and an impact. So out of the 4 presentations that were scheduled that were. Only there will only be 3 of them.

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because Estev Amos will will not be here

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at all. He actually mistook the time zones

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and didn't realize that he could not make it

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now at this particular

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time of the of the day, so I guess we'll we will start with With Mita Kramer. So are you ready, Meta? So Meta is from the University of Heibo in Germany.

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and she will tell us about epistemic sovereignty in the West Indies, the New World group in the 1,900 sixtys. So can you hear me? Meta?

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Yes, I just need to. It's okay, it's okay. I will stop sharing here. And so well, you have. You have 15 min to for your for your presentations. Okay.

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right at the floor.

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Meta Cramer: yeah, thanks so much to fun. And also then let me enough for inviting me to the session. I'm really excited to speak about something that will be resonating with my presentation. I have yesterday, and I think some also listen to

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Meta Cramer: But we'll be focused on a bit more the kind of intellectuals, exchange and reception that so my talk will be on epistemic sovereignty in the West Indies, and I will look at the New World group in the 19 sixties and the Anglophone, Caribbean, as an example of I would say, often overlooked Invisible College as to ask for in there, or as you framed it in the call for the session.

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Meta Cramer:  And What stroke me when I read this? Was it When I came first came across about This group was that they were for me, very much standing at that Latin American dependency theories and In this presentation I want to 12 in a bit. How they resonate with the school of thought. Since I couldn't find any person in meetings between these groups. for me. That was an interesting case. I would love to present

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Meta Cramer: so just to give you a brief of a look over the group. I assume most of you don't know that you work. Group. that worse, or it describes an interdisciplinary intellectual movement. that from 1,959, and Mona and Jamaica, and they were essentially engaged in the State building in the Caribbean territories, in reforms of academic policies, and also in the decolonization of the and Caribbean social sciences.

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Meta Cramer: as I said, they are often overlooked from a and when I mean overlooked, I mean from a German or I of a discourse perspective However, in the region it discours, they possess a really really important

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Meta Cramer: position, both for the intellectual history and the remembrance and the history of the Institute of Social Sciences at the University of the West Indies, but also in the remembrance and narrative about the independence movement and the political decolonization of the region. So I experience really a large gap of literature when looking into the region, discourses of having this huge reference point of always the Golden period, the New World Group.

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Meta Cramer: where is I? Couldn't find any articles that were not in Caribbean related publication media about them.

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Meta Cramer: and yeah, what really strikes me from the beginning, was kind of their call for epistemic sovereignty or decriminalization, as they sometimes call it In the words of late the Norman

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Meta Cramer: and he form relates that I quote at the core of the new word thinking was the need for epistemic sovereignty. I believe in the power of ideas to effect change, and the view of the Caribbean condition as the legacy of the pervasive effects of the plantation system to attend.

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Meta Cramer: I think what already gets clear. Here is the importance, first, of epidemic sovereignty. which I come back later. Secondly, also the political engagement and involvement of this group, the the belief and the power of ideas to effect change. So really, a necessity to engage with a political discourse. And also, yeah, dynamic societal change.

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Meta Cramer: And thirdly, the second main point of the presentation. this historical structure, this perspective, on seeing the Caribbean condition or contemporary Caribbean society, as a legacy of the effects of the plantation system.

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Meta Cramer: So I won the following very briefly, going to the political institution of context, during which they formed importantly. again, the British Metropolitan important role. since many of the members were educated in London. so they were, I would say. True moments of formation of this group, and then in the main part of it, come to their call. Arguments about epidemic sovereignty and the plantation society

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Meta Cramer: they can to kind of the reception or relation with that American dependency theories. Before coming to the conclusion

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Meta Cramer: so importantly, the New Work group formed, and the time during which main territories of the Anglophone Caribbean was still part of the British Empire, and had not yet achieved sovereignty. They were crucial and really important for this emancipation process.

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Meta Cramer: and especially for the Region and Independence movement. they also were engaged in forming the West, a new federation, that kind of strife collectively, as a regional entity towards emancipation

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Meta Cramer: and in this regional context, and also in the still Imperial context. the most institution or the place to meet was University College of the West Indies, that was built for 1,948 in Jamaica, and however strongly controlled by the British Colonial Office, so it was meant as an elite college to educate a new colonial lead in times, of course, of global decolonization movements.

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Meta Cramer: importantly, and we will see this later when we come to the Latin American dependency theories is for me, however, to stress the fact that they were really working on the conditions of still colonial or imperial rule.

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Meta Cramer: given these circumstances, I'm giving this late university institution. Caribbean leaders, and also religious leaders. in the Turkey, have called for decades at this point for universities, but was always rejected by the British Colonial Office, and given that they were knowing that there was no institution in place. there were individual mobility schemes for elite scholars

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Meta Cramer: and core members of the New World groups, such as Norman Gurvin, or a sociologist on end of Patterson, also historian, Walter Rodney, went to London, and who see their Phd studies there.

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Meta Cramer: in London. Importantly, I would say, this is the first moment of of forming such a group. There was a strong generation exchange for example, with like Marxist to James, or also actually this Amy Ashwood, Garvey, and also the connection with other Pan African anti-colonia activists. So this was really a first kind of socialization movement in this group. Kind of like, my thought was really important.

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Meta Cramer: And many kind of, for in London we're engaged in these activities.

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Meta Cramer: however. also perceived a responsibility to return of the municipation. there's a really fascinating interview, serious. Us. Caribbean anthropologist, David Scott, conducted with many of these Scottish, and also Independence leaders, and several of them right how they were in London and observing the developments at home in the Caribbean, and really wanted to come back and support the Independence political lead in building this postcolonian state.

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Meta Cramer: So then, being back in the Caribbean it was remembered as a time of great excitement, tremendous from end, and he just debate So after note lectures used. There were informal gatherings in Jamaica. They were discussing about poly post independence, politics, economic measures in the educational system.

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Meta Cramer: then, kind of after our experience with the put it together, academic emancipation, because also importantly at the same time, when the same year, in the same summer, the main territories to make an attorney that became autonomous from the Empire, also the institutions for the University of the West Indies, And chief sovereignty as an institution by a royal charter.

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Meta Cramer: the group to solved in the seventies. in context of political radicalization, and also intern a conflict. But what I want to focus now on in this kind of context is, yeah. The 2 arguments or the 2 calls, I would say, towards up Islamic sovereignty. And also this historic constructionist method. of yeah. Also present and dependency theories.

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Meta Cramer: so I'm going to start out again with Norman Gurban.

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Meta Cramer: who stated that I could

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Meta Cramer: first was the necessity for independent thought. It had that the reach of the Caribbean Caribbean's problems, laying the colonial cults of mind to epistemic dependency to flawed conceptualizations based on imported formulations

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Meta Cramer: developing independent thought would mean observing the economy, the society, and the politics, without reliance on preconceived models derived from the experience of others.

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Meta Cramer: It would mean close study of our own historical experience in locating our reality in the context of that history.

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Meta Cramer: And for me it was really striking. how? What problems are framed in in in regards to to to the Colonial, a legacy here. So it's firstly, the colonial cost of mind. So we have an argument about epistemic dependency, about knowledge, production, about the imported formulations.

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Meta Cramer: and to flawed conceptualizations that are not adjusted to the Caribbean context. So these are arguments we find also in prominent works on academic dependency. For example, in a lattice works also when Pauline Hunji writes about the extra version of Scottish space in African countries. We have similar observations about this kind of epistemic dependency in the colonial cost of mind.

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Meta Cramer: secondly, what he suggests or it calls for is observing the economy, society, and the politics.

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Meta Cramer: so an interdisciplinary on holistic approach, to. With these and differentiation theories often separated to to fields kind of

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Meta Cramer: from the own historic experiences and the reality in context of that history. So we've already see how important it's like a experience for this theorizing or for this

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Meta Cramer: kind of call for epistemic sovereignty. It's crucial for go. And to iidline kind of the

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Meta Cramer: yeah, historical and also contemporary context for theorizing.

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Meta Cramer: secondly, we find a similar in one of the core members George Backford, of the group. who highlights in the introduction of this book on persistent Poverty. I'm coming back to you in a second. How? And he speaks about again. Caribbean social scientists too often review our problems through the eyes of the metropolitan men, and our analysis of these problems depend to in ordinarily on analytical constructs, developed for an appropriate 250

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Meta Cramer: mit. Ctl. And North Atlantic Society, but which may be inappropriate for the Third World. So, additionally, again, we have this moment of epistemic dependency, the problem, seeing the problems with the ice of the metropolitan men. 250.

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Meta Cramer: But we have also, I think, I would say another, but another layer, and saying and and really confront, confronting the universalism

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Meta Cramer: of economic and social theorizing, and that analytic a construct are not seen as university, appliable, applicable, or valid or appropriate, but rather distinguishing that certain theoretical descriptions might be appropriate to, not for for North Atlantic societies, but are really not in context of the Caribbean and other countries in the global South. So I would say, this is also another argument. He's adding

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Meta Cramer: about yeah, kind of the you know, as I guesses, of of much theorizing

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Meta Cramer: as I can. As I said before, I've I think this very clearly resonates, with many theories that we are contemporarily considered or received about dependency or extra version

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Meta Cramer: the response of the New Work group or the theoretic contribution they built on this critique. was this so called plantation society model?

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Meta Cramer: stating that mainly every society is a product of a particular particular historic forces that give it shape and form.

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Meta Cramer: Modern Caribbean society to place structure forms that are a direct legacy of the slave plantation system. This legacy provides a single most important crew for an understanding of contemporary Caribbean society.

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Meta Cramer:  I think we can. Our

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Meta Cramer: what is kind of what? What is what displays this great, especially again, the structure, historical methodology. also the importance of the slave plantation system specifically in the Caribbean. What Also distinguish them, of course, from Latin American dependency theories.

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also these kind of unique, and that it's the singer most important for you.

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Meta Cramer:  and Lastly, this doesn't come out super clearly here, but he later writes it. One reason they refer to the slave plantation system as the singer. Most important clue is that they conceive it as a total institution. So this is also of course, influenced by a total institution theory, but of a government at the time.

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Meta Cramer: but Lloyd Best and George Backford and others worked also extensively on how the plantation system and Plantation

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Meta Cramer: Meditation Society Therefore they call it really embraced all over societal and and social life. So the plantation, really, as the total institution of Caribbean location. society. Then?

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Meta Cramer:  This all, as I said, sounded very much like dependency theories or Latin American dependency theories to me. And it is, and like, in fact, when we read for example, back for it. and others. They explicitly refer to this. So Backford rights. our study of the plantation economy and society suggest that under development derives from the institution environment, the nature of economic, social, and political organization

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Meta Cramer: that should not, of course, be surprising. Nor is the idea new Latin American economics have emphasized this for some time.

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Meta Cramer: erez Agmoni later goes on that more indirectly, the work of Joseph for Tada Williams and the whole school of Latin, American and Caribbean structuralist has left an indelible infant on my intellectual development. So here he also already sees that an American and Caribbean structuralist as as a whole school, and we similarly find also references to Andre going to Fang and Clive Thomas work on dependency and transformation, 150,

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Meta Cramer: and also, like best 1,968 refers to church. So for title. And importantly, these are all works in the seventies. So this is kind of the New Work group work that's engaged in this independence politics and yeah, we're we're everything to the Latin American dependency theories. However, not

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Meta Cramer: not. I would. I wouldn't say that there's a strong theoretical engagement, and that they discuss their theories in reference to it, but rather acknowledged that well, similar faults have been made have been fault in in that in America, and in a really fascinating paper. Norman Govan and his wife Teresa go and worked on

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Meta Cramer: well, the relation of Caribbean and Latin America independently, theories in the fifties and outline, how in their words, they emerged virtually independently of another

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Meta Cramer: so griven, and Gurvin observed, in the paper, I think importantly not, neither presented in Latin America nor in the Caribbean, but rather in Toronto. They describe how I could, precisely at the same time as Purch was making the case for Latin American industrialization.

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Meta Cramer: Arthur Lewis was doing the same for the West Indies in his industrialization of the British West Indies. So only one year after purvish publication of economic development of Latin America. And it's principal problems

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Meta Cramer: of the Lewis Published industrialization of the British West Indies and Urban goes on describing that contributions emerging Latin America ending Michigan, Caribbean possess an underlying similarity in the methodology, and merged virtually independently of another. He refers to writing the squad to the kind of different language discourses, and partly, I would say he stresses the English speaking caramel

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Meta Cramer: he highlights methodology. And also this methodology is the core. similarity that they outline in in this paper. however, really shows how there wasn't much a reception or knowledge of each other, and he attributes this kind of simultaneous theoretical development to the political or general society context at the time, also the well, financial crisis in the 30 s.

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Meta Cramer:  he rise, or they write that I quote events in both regions during the 1930 S. And showing that the tradition of political economy was unviable in political terms as well in economics.

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Meta Cramer: The difference of the caravan was that the region was done, the colonial rule and had limitations posed by small size quote end, and he later goes on. So the both theoretical developments were emerging in a in a time, and which what will economic system have been failed at the end of the 30 s. And the financial crisis. and also new. kind of

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Meta Cramer:  New political economy approaches. We developed, however. He then later goes on. How different, of course, the regional context, and also then the theoretical, for for he were so the Caribbean, the West Indies were still on the colonial rules. So this industrialization of the British West Indies by Apple Lewis was, of course, or had to take an account with the local colonial, and British Elise at the time. So it wasn't

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Meta Cramer: that much of unknown as a Caribbean sovereign political leadership at the moment. that wasn't part. Of course there were independence movements really strongly, and riots and resistance, however, the leadership at the time were still put in by the British Empire.

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Meta Cramer: also, of course, the Caribbean faced. it's just as such as limitations post by the small size, so smaller markets, but also a specific vulnerability. given by the small economy. So this kind of small state issue is an ongoing

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Meta Cramer: threat of thought or problems cost in Caribbean, for especially also in the last decades or so. given exist? it's it's significant vulnerability to effect of climate change, of course. in the small island States. so given these regional differences, there were, of course, different fuky in the theoretic and development. However. I found it really interesting how grabbing a Germans showed

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Meta Cramer: how they verged independent of each other, and then later, kind of read and recept it each other's theories.

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Meta Cramer: I I couldn't find any single meeting, or personal contact, or any footnote, and which was mentioned that there were

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Meta Cramer: personal ties also. they must have been 1,966. the ifla installed their office and training that So there must have been discussions. however. yeah, it was really hard to find or trace kind of the development of this. And in the text, I was just finding these references in the footnotes, but not A long theoretical engagement.

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Meta Cramer: however, I think. it's a really important point. I'm seeing these South South changes, but also similar emergency of theoretical threats. for which I would say, there are 3 moments. kind of in the new wife group. that illustrate this global exchange network, and that is supposedly the pan Africanism, and, like Marxism that was cultivated in London

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Meta Cramer: erez agmoni figures such as Walter Rodney, who studied in London to in Tanzania, returned to Jamaica, went again to Tanzania. So I was really engaged in a pan-african network and knowledge production. I would say exemplary for this. Secondly, we have this resonances with academic dependency, theories, or extraversion as found in a lattice work, or a him 21

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Meta Cramer: in these framing of the colonial cost of mind and the academic dependency, and in the MoD like theorization mode of Northern social sciences. And lastly, we have the exchange one

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Meta Cramer: or the kind of mutual inferential, or the inference of Latin American dependency theories on tendency theories that had, of course, their own focus points, such as the it, the small size, and also being developed still on the Colonel, and right after independence.

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Meta Cramer:  I thank you very much. I hope I stay in time. And I'm looking forward to the questions. I don't see anyone in, though. What is that? Yeah, thank you.

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Thank you, Meta. So I suggest that we turn to questions right now. I think it's it. It might be better if we have the question just after the the presentation, instead of having some kind of a wrapping up set of questions.

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whereas we, where we usually there, there's been a time between the presentation and the and the questions. So if you don't mind, Meta, we can have the questions. Now, is that fine with you? Okay, great. So are there questions from the from the floor. You just need to go to the to the mic

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in order for them. So yeah, for read. And then

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she's just say, your.

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oh, this one is better. Okay, just say say your name, because Meta cannot see you, I guess.

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and

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my name is

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so I have a couple of questions. First, you cited. How do you say his name, Gavin

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 who spoke of in describing the new, the New World book he was referring to the

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 Critique of the colonial cast of mind, a systemic dependency, and so on and so forth. But that I think that work was written in 2,019. That's the date you gave. Now, I'm interested in what terms and concepts

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that referred to these phenomena were used by the group itself when they were formed in the

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in 1,959, and shortly after that, what were the concepts? I'm assuming they didn't use terms like epistemic dependency.

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So what were the, you know, the concepts that they used and related to that? You use it? An extra version is that a concept that they use? And how do they define?

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So far? It stole my question.

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Meta Cramer: hey? Thanks so much. So. You know the extra version that was kind of an interpretation of my because I thought relief resembling to extra version is developed by pulling and tungy. And yes, that I'm I'm sorry for this every day to quit. I should have contextualized. So Norman Govan was call member at the time of the New World Group, and he's given this account in which he describes the colonial cost of mind.

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Meta Cramer: in an collection or an apology, in which he kind of looks back at the time, and describes also in a very like a personal way, how, as a student, he got engaged with the grieve and what the discussions were. the connection also collects interviews 250

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Meta Cramer: mit ctl, and So I saw this really as a kind of document. reflecting, of course, as X post the time but still at from an internal perspective from the group. Given that these were all members of the group, one

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Meta Cramer: like best in one text, named epistemic dependency. however, very shortly. And Many of these concepts are also not theorized in a more social, theoretical, philosophical way. This just came out a recent paper by Scott Tinka, who describes, and this one paragraph, that? Well, they were really good economics, but not so good political philosophers.

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Meta Cramer: And so. And I would follow this interpretation of Timka who argues or shows quite vividly how they were being engaged, and also like concrete economic study. So especially Gurvin was somebody who did it inographies and works on concrete fabrications in Trinidad and Gayana to show really local processes of the industrialization. However, these more social theoretical points were there and were accounted for. And we're really important. 150.

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Meta Cramer: But I'm not. Yeah, not so theorized. I would say. however, I I think, where it should take the serious when they mentioned it explicitly in that programmatic outlines. And also, yeah, and how they understand themselves as a group.

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Meta Cramer: Yes, I hope.

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No, thank you, sir, please.

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Sorry before you have to come to the mind, because because of the recording.

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Remember to tell us who you are. Yeah.

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Hello. My name is Charles Bovio on Yaquer. And I'm a research professor at the French National Center for Scientific research.

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I the question out of share curiosity. I was wondering whether there were connections between the New World group that you described and French speaking Caribbean, for instance. And this is there and the magnitude.

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Thank you.

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Meta Cramer: yes, they were really receptive of this. So also, in the first issue of the journal, they found the new one. Quarterly that starts with the poem of this. Is there so? on all they also they had contributions by Spanish speaking,

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Meta Cramer: mit ctl, and scholars based in Caribbean. However, this was one of the internal conflicts, and the result of the dissolvement of the group. the lacking discourse with the French and Spanish, and also Dutch speaking, Caribbean territories. Given the different academic systems and traditions, and especially in the West Indies, the strong tie also institutionally, knowledge production with this University College of the West Indies, 132.

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Meta Cramer: They were really more engaged in the kind of Anglophone discourse, however, of course not ignorant of it. I would say. I mean, since you're in the Government also side this, or explicitly highlight this, the Latin American discussion, the Anglia from Caribbean that these language barriers will also one big reason why there weren't many like personal meetings and networks. I would say that the biggest kind of

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Meta Cramer: trends are like crossing language borders. Meeting of the Caribbean was probably the black writers a Congress in Toronto in 1,962. I think it was in 1,968. That was really more also on like writers and arches, and not so much economically, and social sciences oriented. And there, that was a huge trans regional meeting part, and also discourse. so, yeah.

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thank you, Meta. Any other question coming from them

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on the floor.

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Okay, so I have one for you. Meta. you you have mentioned that. Well, if I understood you well, you you said that there you you were about sure there was a a meeting and discussions in 1,966, apparently, but you have no evidence of any other

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physical contacts and meetings between those those people from Latin American dependency theories and the people from the New World. Right?

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Meta Cramer: Yeah. The thing is, I'm I'm I'm not. I'm not quite sure, but like the so Latin American Commission for the development of Like to America, d. Installed in office in port of Spain, and

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Meta Cramer: where a lot best one of the 4 4 heads of the new what group was also based? So there will be some some exchange. However, this is also already 66, and they were really splitting up, and also a huge conflicts only a couple of years later. So it might also be that at the time internal dynamics about internal discussions were kind of dominating. the intellectual discussions at the time, and not so much the exchange with with other. Yeah.

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and there's no archival found

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one private of or more public that would that for that. I'm thinking, perhaps, of the the archives of of Orlando. Patterson.

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Meta Cramer: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I haven't been to his What would be really interesting would have been the archives of like the best that burned down somewhere in the archives of Lloyd Best, who was kind of for thinking of the these archives burnt down so his old papers got lost in the

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Meta Cramer:  Yes, so there will be probably connections. have, as I said, given that this group was so strongly reporting on their own informal meetings, and we're speaking so much. We're referring in their acknowledgments and every preface you find the same group of scholars that were always meeting in the same living room and describing the living room. So that was they. They were very explicit about the informality also.

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Meta Cramer: and since there is never ever any reference to somebody outside of the office in circle. It was. It was very striking to find this. Yeah.

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okay, thank you. thank you, Meta, for your for your presentation. And so now we turn to The presentation by Anaheid Al Haradan, and and I hate is teaches I would I would college

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in the United States, and she she couldn't make it because she she couldn't make it here first and the second. She wanted to be to be online. But she had to take a plane. So it a little bit complicated. So she decided to to pre record her presentation. So this is what we will. we will see now, if I succeed in

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making it work.

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Good evening, everyone

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not being a really person.

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that I

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the voice is not very clear. It's clear in. Sorry. Can we do it? Okay.

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that's the problem. The the sound is not very clear on Jim.

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There's more you should.

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Good evening, everyone. I'm

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sorry that I cannot be able in person today. and that I cannot actually be live virtually as well due to consisting commitments.

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However, I'm excited to be part of this panel, and to see that this panel is taking part in Isa, and I'm very much looking forward to the Conversations 250 that will develop as a result.

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So in late 1,957, Egypt, under the leadership of Jamal Abdul Nassau hosted the first Afro Asian People Solidarity Conference which led to the establishment of the Afro Asian people. Solidarity organization with its permanent Secretariat in Cairo, the delegates, activists, writers, and intellectuals associated with Axel, hailed from different anti-colonial liberation movements, including the sizeable number of African liberation movements that were given political asylum by Egypt, and hosted by its African association

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and post-colonial political parties and movements in Africa and Asia more broadly up, so self-declared aims were centered on advancing anti-colonial national liberation and anti-colonial solidarity and unity across the African Asian world.

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Transnationally, the first decade of Afsho's existence saw a flurry of activities by the organization. the attempted to further its self-declared aims, including conferences in newly independent Guinea, Canakri in 1960, Tanzania and 63, and Ghana in 1,965,

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and the laying of the groundwork to bring South America to its African Asian organizational solidarity structure through what became known as the Tri Continental Continental Conference in Havana in 66.

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At the same time Egypt's up so hosted an African Asian News woman and Writers, conferences and African Asian film festival and engaged in a trilingual Arabic, English, and French program of publication that included a bulletin, an academic journal, a writer's journal, commission, studies and organizational materials.

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So what I'd like to do today in my brief 15 or 20 min is to explore the idea of African Asian anti-colonialism within this political intellectual Mealu of late 1950, S. And early 1960, S. Cairo, I want to pay attention to a structural manifestation. The brief attempt to institutionalize it through up those activities and the different networks activities and ultimately meanings that came to be associated with it.

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I want to also examine if I have time, the theoretical articulation of the idea of African Asian anti-colonialism, elaborated by the different anti-colonial intellectuals and activists that were hosted in Cairo and by demonstrating how the Egyptian State enabled an infrastructure of transnational solidarity, and how anti-colonial intellectuals theorize colonialism and anti-colonialism within this framework.

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I'm going to be showing ultimately the potentials as well as limitations of anti-colonial theory, generated by state-sponsored institutions and networks of decolonization. And this is, of course, based on draft s excerpts from my book in progress, one

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Provisionally entitled Error-based Colonial Theory and African Asian solidarity movements. So in the first week of February 9, 57, 4 delegates of the Asian Solidarity Committee arrived in Cairo. This delegation was headed by Anip Singh, who was a member of the External Affairs Committee of the Indian National Congress party and a Parliament member. Other members included Anatoli Sofranov, who was a secretary of the Soviet Asian. So there is Committee young Tru, who, and Secretary of the Chinese Asian. So there's Committee young Tru, who, and secretary of the Chinese Asian. So there's Committee young Tru, who, and secretary of the Chinese Asian. So there's Committee young Tru, who and secretary of the Chinese Asian. So there's Committee young Tru, who, and secretary of the Chinese Asian. So there's Committee young Tru, who, and Secretary of.

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and Masaharu had Anaka, who was Secretary of the Japanese Asian Solidarity Committee. The arrival of the delegation took place 6 months after the Swiss war, or the Dwight British, French, and Israeli invasion of Egypt and October 56,

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3 months after Jamal Abdul Nasser nationalised the Swiss canal. the us and Soviet diplomatic and economic intervention led to their withdrawal. The perceived victory of Egypt against the the former are current as well at that time colonial masters of African Asia and the Israeli settler. Colonial protege.

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give a major boost to Nazi and Nazism, both at the at home and the Arab world, and in African Asia more broadly so. The arrival of the delegation and the propelling of NASA and Egypt as an exemplar of effective State-led anti-colonial nationalism in light of Suez.

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Also took place a year and a half after the meeting of the African Asian Heads of State in Bandon and Indonesia in April 55. That conference was a gathering of 29 African Asian heads, of both aligned and on the line newly decolizing. newly, the colonized nation States, as well as leaders of 6 anti-colonial movements and as well as observer States. At the invitation of Burma Salon, India, Indonesia, and Pakistan, 200, and

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and the Conference's final communicate center of support for national independence, opposition to colonial to colonialism, and mutually exchanging cooperation among the African Asian worlds.

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while the Conference sought to present an African Asian United Front. It was not immune to backstage cold war, politics with us, aligned States, repeated attempts to derail a consensus from emerging at the meeting.

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So this is the overall context within which the Asian Solidarity Committee arrives in Cairo. There was also a previous conference to Bandong. happening in New Delhi, called the Asian Conference.

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and there really an Asian Solidarity Committee was was established as well. So when this committee arrived in Cairo in February, and 57 held the press conference of the union of journalists.

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and during the conferencing announced that the committee had met Jamal Abdul-lassid and secured his support for the convening of an African Asian Conference in Cairo. Later on that year

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mit Ctl. And and the conference was envisioned as a second bending. They will uphold the values of his predecessor, but will nevertheless act as a meeting of people's representatives as opposed to heads of State one. and Abdul Nasser assigned on what is sad for Arab and African outreach. While the Indian branch of the Asian Solidarity Committee took on the

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in an outreach role, and also you've used for Savannah was appointed to undertake the role of the Conference secretariat in Cairo.

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And eventually there was a convening of the preparatory committee of the African agent. So there's Conference on October 20 s, 1,957, in Cairo.

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and while the preparatory committee agreed on the importance of the popular nature of the upcoming Conference, upholding Bundle's principles, increasing African Asian Corporation, as well as the conferences, 3 languages which were going to be Arabic, English, and French.

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and a draft program that included some of the most pressing anti-imperials causes of the time that the delegates would discuss. There were important disagreements that emerged. During the work of the preparatory committee. So, for example, during the meeting of the heads of delegations.

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stings suggested drafting a letter expressing African Asian people solidarity with the Syrian people and governments. as as a response to the Turkish deployment of troops at its border, with Syria in preparation for what was at the time seen as a Communist regime change in Damascus.

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of course, that of the Turkish delegation opposed the letter. which was nevertheless issued in the end. So I begin with this sketch of some of the directly related preceding meetings and networks

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that led to this first African- Asian Conference in Cairo in late 1957 to foreground. 3 main claims about the first 2 decades of the First First World War Ii decolonization era, and these claims guide my research on Arabic intellectual, theoretical production of this era as well as research methodology.

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First, the African Asian anti-colonial movement was driven by newly independent post-colonial states and statesmen in Africa and Asia, whose vision of anti- imperialist and antiponial liberation, unity, and solidarity

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was formed in the larger context of the Cold War. and in no way represented a unified front. And, second, this vision materialized through a top-down, state-driven political project

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based on a perceived common colonial, and anti-colonial history as the basis of an anti-imperialist and anti-colonial internationalism. Third, within this larger, state-sponsored and enabled arena

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anti-colonial, political activists, intellectuals and writers networks were sustained created or developed these individuals, groups, and networks produced publications that ranged in school from literary, political, and academic journals.

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to political bulletins, commission studies, organization, materials, and works of fiction. Through these and other materials and mediums, such as African Asian film festivals, conferences and meetings.

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anti-colonial liberation, unity and solidarity across Africa, and Asia were theorized given the Egyptian free officer's pan-arab, anti-colonial nationalist ideology, as well as Egypt's due of political interest in the Arab region. Africa and Asia. Cairo became a locus of these networks, particularly as centered on Absalom, their Arabic publications

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in the late 1950 S. And early 1960 S. So his stories have recently led the way on research on this era. But my primary research interest in the first 2 decades of decolonization following the Second World War and view of my historical sociology.

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Orientation really lies in tracing how the Arabic intellectual production of this period can and should be treated as theory from the formerly colonized world. Given the state-driven African, Asian, anti-colonial solidarity politics of this era I'm interested in Arabic intellectual production that was in conversation

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for the African Asian anti-colonial movement more broadly and whose main questions, concepts, and other categories and ideas should be recovered as the basis of anticolonial social theory. For today.

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I think a closer look at the first actual conference can elaborate further these 2 interlinked points, the potential and limits

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of state-sponsored cold war and colonial networks, and the potential to the rise colonialism that these networks enabled.

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So during the first conference, really, what we saw in Cairo was the coming together

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of these activists. thinkers and and and political politicians in certain instances that really, you know, were were through these platforms of of the conference of the Conference.

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Really telling, you know theorizing colonialism and anti-colonialism and interesting ways. So I mean, I I don't think I have much time to go in a very systematic way.

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through this. But I'm just going to give you some brief examples. And one really interesting example for me

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comes from the speeches, for example. of the delegation. From the union of the peoples of Cameroon. That was led by Felix Roland Mummier, who was then an exiled ante colonial activist, hosted in Egypt, who was, of course, hosting most of these African Liberation movement, and he has, like an entry and political reports, entitled Colonialism.

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and in his report Monier begins by reiterating the spirit of Bandong, and pays homage to Pan-africanism and the anti-colonial struggles unfolding across Africa.

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He then outlines the changed conditions under which Imperialism now operates the latter, which he considers to be, and I quote a well-known theory, and the goal of his report, Momeo argues, is to demonstrate the change Imperialist methods of the enemy by those under occupation, in order to foster horizontal relations with which to overcome these conditions of oppression.

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So he begins his report by elaborating what Imperialism is in view of the present state of the world, and he does this by extensively quoting from different European colonial politicians, Government administrators and members of the intelligence.

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Following from this evidence he argues that Imperialism is first and foremost driven by capital accumulation. Our imperialism is a search for raw materials, the means through which to invest capital, the colonies, and the acquisition of markets for the finished products of imperialist countries.

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It also has different aspects. Politically, for example, imperialism is only able to maintain its hold on the colonized through brute forests. and in this report he quotes from the Ghanaian anti-colonial political activist and the first post-colonial Prime Minister of Ghana Kwami Nicruma.

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to remind the conference attendees that freedom from Imperialism will not be delivered on a silver plate. He also emphasizes the need to coordinate struggles and exchange information insofar as we, the colonized nations.

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And again, I'm quoting him, are concerned, and warns about the trend taken up by recently independent post-colonial states. they have succumb to Imperialist influence. The worst aspect of imperialism, Mommy argues, is its economic aspect

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as its essence and basis. with the main aim of imperialism being that of economic exploitation. particularly natural resources, and through forced or cheap labor in the colonies.

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In addition to the political and economic aspects of imperialism. mummy also outlines the cultural, either through the destruction.

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Okay? So

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into the to the very end of the

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again, many technologies.

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Yeah.

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now. So it does not even tell you.

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with the main aim of imperialism being that of economic exploitation. particularly natural resources, and through force or cheap labor in the colonies. In addition to the political and economic aspects of imperialism, mommy also outlines the cultural either through the destruction.

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I'm sorry

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I can't do anything about that. So

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okay. Well.

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sorry about sorry about this.

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If if ever you have some some questions about the what what was said. There, there's one thing we could we could do, perhaps

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 would. it would be. For instance, you writing your question by sending me an email

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and and then I could transmit to your question to an A heat. and and her directly responding to you.

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So if there are some some questions. Just

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come to me when

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whenever you like at the maybe at the end of the of of the session. So So you can have a chance to have your your, your question.

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your question answered. So now I guess.

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how do we get out of that? Yeah, I think.

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yeah, I think it is. so

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yeah, okay, so Bosco is not here and not online either. So I suggest that we turn to to Linda.

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So do you hear us, Linda?

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Linda Luiz: Yes, yes, I will. Just try to.

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Good and just share my screen just a minute. So Linda Lewis is a

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assistant professor. Correct me if I'm wrong. Assistant Professor of Sociology at the Cent. There is a college in in Kerala, India.

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and well, so you have the title of her

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of her presentation. So while you you have 15 to 20 min, Linda, you have the floor.

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Linda Luiz: Thank you, Stefan.

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Linda Luiz: system it

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Linda Luiz: so good day. Everyone the matter I'm going to present today is taken from my doctoral research, which was on the sociology of sociology in Canada.

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Linda Luiz: This is Kerala, in the south western coast of India, and this is where my paper is based.

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Linda Luiz: I will give a quick overview of my presentation. I begin with the the lack of historical orientation that I have encountered within Indian sociology.

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Linda Luiz: Then I will give a very a brief idea of how I went about my research on sociology of sociology in Canada. I will, I will touch touch upon the role of a few networks and actors who have played an important role in sociology in kernel, and I will towards the end. I will speak about tackling subjectivities and meta objectivity in the course of research, and I will end with the difficulties of your difficulties that I faced in the process of Friday.

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Linda Luiz: So let me begin with some dilemmas in the Research Committee on History of Sociology of the Indian Sociological Society.

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Linda Luiz: the Iss this This Research Committee on History of Sociology of the Isis, was created in 2,017 by reconstituting an existing Rc. On su logical theory and methods. the idea of the Surrey Constitution was to bring the Rcs. Of the Indian Sociological Society in line with the Rc. Structure of the Isa.

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Linda Luiz: Even though the Rc. Had a new title. The major focus of papers presented at that sessions continued to be on sociological theories and methods.

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Linda Luiz: and not everyone was happy with the change of the title. And now the name and the focus of this committee are being moved back

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Linda Luiz: to theories, concepts, and methods, and sociology. This points to a lack of comfort with the historical orientation and a move towards boundary maintenance, keeping sociology within its bounds, and leaving history to itself.

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Linda Luiz: I came across such boundary maintenance practices with regard to my visitation as well. I had initially proposed a History of Sociology in Canada as the title of my Visitation.

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I was advised to make it a sociology of sociology.

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Linda Luiz: after a and after a seminar presentation, when I gave an account of the development of sociology, I was asked by more than one respondent, the you've given us a historical description. But where is the sociology?

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Linda Luiz: So history is something that is usually left behind in the introductory chapters, something that students of sociology hardly del into focusing on the synchronic aspects and totally leaving out the diaphragm aspect of analysis.

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Linda Luiz: There's issues hardly confined to the state of Kerala T. And Madden writes that the sociological traditions of India have yet to find the historians soonil with rates, that a comprehensive history of the development of sociology is yet to be written. Andre Bethi lemons, the amnesia about the work of predecessors

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Linda Luiz: and Alan Seika claims that such is true of the history of sociology in any country.

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Linda Luiz: This is not to say that there is. There is no historical work on sociology in India. In my research I have reviewed works covering broad historical trends in Indian sociology, works on an individual sociologist and schools of sociology that are also a critiqu of sociology from the Margins.

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Linda Luiz: Book length. Treatments of the history of society are uncommon in India, as they are elsewhere in the world.

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Linda Luiz: but it was difficult to find historical works on regional sociologies in the case of Karen, I just had a couple of reflexive works written in in the recent years that that touched upon the practice of sociology. So basically, I have to build my history from scratch.

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Linda Luiz: And I could not just document the history from the written records. Such a proposal would have an immediately shot down as being too narrow. I had to take interviews that sounded mostly logical.

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Linda Luiz: and it could not be this qualitative data, either. It had to have quantitative data that files oblige to conduct a survey. Ultimately I adopted a mixed methods, approach some of the methods included historical research, participant observation. A reference survey of the journal that you're in a sociologist.

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Linda Luiz: and another survey conducted among life members of the

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Linda Luiz: I started out by creating an almanac of the establishment of higher education institutions that offered sociology at the undergraduate, postgraduate and research levels. And this showed me how so your view was taught as a minor subject in the State from the 1930 s. Itself.

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Linda Luiz: But bachelors and masters programs were introduced only in the 1960 S.

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Linda Luiz: I found that many departments were established at church managing institutions, and some of the founders of departments were priests and nuns who had a training in sociology from the United States.

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Linda Luiz: There were also the. There's also the curious case that government run colleges and universities did not seem inclined to promote sociology. You see that out 66 only 4 government from colleges in the State and still have a are still offer sociology.

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Linda Luiz: I found that Christian Church has had a major role to play in the transmission of sociology into Canada. I came across accounts of priests and nuns sent to the United States by the congregations in on gain degrees, and then they would return and establish departments in kernel

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Linda Luiz: global currents could thus percolate through church networks. We can also observe the role of the Global Catholic Conference, the second Matic and Council from in the 1960 s. In popularizing the need for humanistic subjects like sociology, as they were also useful for priests and religious to know for their locations.

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Linda Luiz: Just with our priests of the Society of Jesus had a major role to play a patic into. just with having school masters in Europe and the

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Linda Luiz: from the in the for for many decades, and for many centuries and sociology was first. It was at a Jesuit institution in Kerala that is, the College of Social Sciences, that sociology was first ushered in as a master subject in kernel, and in 1,963.

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Linda Luiz: Further, the priest and nuns of the first generation I mentioned that there were there were a few center brought for their studies. They had training at colleges and universities run by the Jesuits in the United States in the 1950 s. And sixtys. Therefore, I argue that the Catholic religious specifically just with

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Linda Luiz: from the bridge that brought sociology into get back

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Linda Luiz: the church sociology. Relation could also have been an outcome of the antithetical relation between the Church and the rising Communist movement in the State. In the mid twentieth century the Church in Kerala considered Communism, or some a few in the Church, considered Communism as as its chief ideological rival in the second half of the twentieth century. At one time in history the Catholic Church was the owner of the largest number of private colleges in Korea

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Linda Luiz: the First Communist Government that was elected into power in Caroline 1,957 introduced an Education Bill to control, to change the religious control over education.

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Linda Luiz: they were large scale protest against this. This was led by the church political parties and various community based organizations because these were the church and other non-christian groups. Also, there are major stakeholders in the field of education

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Linda Luiz: this moment was to, on the remote general summer that we translate as liberation struggle.

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Linda Luiz: This was happening in the 1950 s. Against the backdrop of the Cold War, the anti-communist tenancy would have aided the affinity of the Church towards American Sociology of the 1950 s. That presented a non radical view of society.

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Linda Luiz: here, let me mention the role of a significant actor.

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Linda Luiz: this in the photo we see Pkb, Nyet, who had a Phpg. And a doctorate in sociology from maybe the University of Pittsburgh and the Us. He was the head of the sole University department of Sociology in Kerla. For over 2 decades. He had great influence on sociology from at least the early seventies for the next 2 to 3 decades, and I had maintained relations with many in the sociological fraternity at the local national and international levels.

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Linda Luiz: Through his involvement in various professional associations, including the Isa

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Linda Luiz: Lyre, played a crucial role in the establishment of the Kerala Suite Logical Society and its journal, Kerala, Sociologist, and his links with the Iss. That is, the Indian Sociological Society, had a major influence here.

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Linda Luiz: coming to 2 institutions, that matter, for sociology. In Canada there was the Kernel Sociological Society, that is, that I had taken as a marker of the community of sociologists in the state

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Linda Luiz: I traced. It's a in my research, I traced. It's historical trajectory, the role of some significant individuals and provide its conferences over time. in some my interviews I came across instance of friction within the community.

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Linda Luiz: and

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Linda Luiz: the academic positive shocks that some of its members had experienced.

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Linda Luiz: I chat around the institution location of its office, whereas and provide Bill that this provided insights about the concentration of power within the society at specific departments in the State.

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Linda Luiz: A morphological analysis of the changes in students, strength of departments over 5 decades also provided insights about the changing nature of the community. I had also conducted a longitudinal study of the referencing friends in the 50 year old English language. Kerala, sociologist Journal. To us is the level of intellectual dependence in Canada. Over 2,000 references from to 56 articles, published over 15 years, was taken up for this survey

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Linda Luiz: in the working of these 2 institutions. It was the role of Jacob John Katak that came came through a significant. This photo shows Katak. I am speaking at the United Nations Forum

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Linda Luiz: I at

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Linda Luiz: one of the instances Kataka, and conducted his inductive research under Naya as a research scholar he was involved in the establishment of the Carelasts Logical Society. He then went on to take a leadership role in the Society and its journal. After the after the retirement of the founders of the first generation.

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Linda Luiz: A many respondents whom I spoke to have remarked on his role in both these institutions from its beginning.

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Some have noted the personal sacrifices that he made to sustain the journal over over the years.

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Linda Luiz: has been a secretary and president of both the Kerala Sociological Society

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Linda Luiz: and the Indian Sociological Society, and he was active in the Isa and other professional bodies.

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Linda Luiz: His role in careless sociology is made explicit by the power back home created after his death in 2,019, and the tensions that are visible in the working of the cases and its journal over the past 2 to 3 years.

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Linda Luiz: Oh, sorry this is

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Linda Luiz:  after this. After this view of the institutional based of sociology in kernel and having a look at some of the actors I tried to capture something that was most subjective. I found that contrasting imaginations of sociology in kernel, some so great potential in the subject, others found it very trivial, many conflated sociology with social work and social service. Here also I could find patterns. Emoji.

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Linda Luiz: I used to second resources to compare the position of sociology in kernel with that elsewhere. Many of the ideas that I came across are prevalent in other parts of India, and in this way I try to build a macro perspective on imaginations.

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Linda Luiz: Comparative analysis also point out that some of these issues go beyond the the spring of sociology, to the social sciences and even to the very structure of higher education in India.

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Linda Luiz: We can also identify global trends, including the corporatization of higher education in bringing about specific demands and challenges on education, the liberal arts

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Linda Luiz: to come to some issues I face during the research process. Interview data usually give subjective and micro level perceptions of the discipline.

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Linda Luiz: Even sociologists were not aware of the structures within which their personal fortunes were determined. It is definitely not not an easy matter to understand about institutions and structural country constraints. From the words of those who are part of them.

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Linda Luiz: To overcome this, I attempted to find patterns within the data.

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Linda Luiz: the structure of institutions and the role of individuals within them thus began to take a definite shape as I interacted with more and more respondents and competitive analysis, based on secondary data, offered another means of validation. This was one way in which I tried to think beyond individuals. I think analyze structures

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Linda Luiz: The research also factored in quantitative elements in different ways. Historical data was talked to any figures to piece out certain patterns in the academic institutionalization of sociology in Canada.

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Linda Luiz: With regard to the careless society, the qualitative claims regarding the nature of the society were foregrounded against quantitative analysis. The institutional affiliation of the Society's office better.

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Linda Luiz: The critics of the conferences of the cases were analyzed using the

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Linda Luiz: changing demography concludes of professional sociology in the State.

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Linda Luiz: The validity of inference is glean from the reference survey, and the method was examined to a survey of the life members of the cases.

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Linda Luiz: and in Scripture stress has, stressed long ago how distance from the field is crucial for a researcher to be able to reflect and write a research

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Linda Luiz: in the being in most in the very field that I was studying. It was long breaks that provided much needed analytical distance from the here and the now

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Linda Luiz: it was necessary to guard against Meta objectivity, or the tendency to make pronouncements with the assurance of objectivity. While critiquing the lack of objectivity of the subject of study.

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Linda Luiz: For this. our own reflexive practice should not be limited to factoring in personal circumstances.

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Linda Luiz: For both you the narcissistic reflectivity of post, modern anthropology, and the ecological reflex with your phenomenology.

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Linda Luiz: command a very narrow focus as compared to what he turns scientific reflex.

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Linda Luiz: In pursuing scientific reflexivity, we are not fixated with our own biographies, but we rather locate ourselves as object devices with an interconnected networks of relations and traditions of thought which are affected by structural factors. The focus of reflexilities turn to the social context of knowledge rather than the self of the researcher as a knowledge producing subject.

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Linda Luiz: This is 1 point to the first, to us participant objectivation, or the observer becoming an object to the sales.

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Linda Luiz: For me this meant understanding. My habit is as a researcher educated in what is described as a metropolitan center of sociology

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Linda Luiz: and practicing sociology at the at what is called peripheral region.

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Linda Luiz: The divide separating these education structures was the reason I did not always get my colleagues and students with a not and a week as both you expect.

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Linda Luiz: It was clear that my research question also stemmed from a dissatisfaction with some of the practices I am served around me. The research was also shaped by my location and the mesh of institution power relations within Karla sociology.

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Linda Luiz: My academic genealogy in Kerala can be traced through my supervisor to A,

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Linda Luiz: to an academic plan which had a dominant role in the trajectory of sociology. In Canada, however, I also had personal and cordial relations with figures occupying status as an other

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Linda Luiz: academic groupings within Kerria, which, for the complicated matters I had to constantly guard against making easy judgments, and even then rejo, read as a

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Linda Luiz: those who went through my drafts could still come up with judgments as to whether I was taking sides. For this reason or the other

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Linda Luiz: a fine balancing act was needed, so it's not to upset anyone while maintaining academic integrity. The writing, the chapter on the Careless was Radical Society was the most difficult part. As I was writing about social relations in which I was also directly involved critiquing some something. Also, when critiquing somebody.

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Linda Luiz: it was a tightrope walk, walk through to what seemed important to remain objective and to maintain good relations, all at the same time

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Linda Luiz: further complicating the process of writing was the fact that I felt I was playing to different audience. I considered it as my primary audience, those within the careless who's logical Society, some who were associated with the organization during their active years, yet others who are still deeply involved in its functioning.

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Linda Luiz: But I also had a latent sense of the permanence of this work outside the circle on site, the space on in, in, in journals. This meant that it would be accessible to a global audience, and one that would view the institutions and interrelations described that from a move. This interested me

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Linda Luiz: so my perceptions on the perceptions of these divers audiences have deeply and definitely affected the way I did my research work.

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Linda Luiz: and even here I would not make this presentation this way. Where I, speaking at the conference of the Kerala's Us. Logical Society, the structures would not. I would not. support it, I think, and I would modify the work accordingly.

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Linda Luiz: I think I will leave you with this complication, for now. thank you.

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Thank you, Linda. So now we can turn to questions from the floor. We have plenty of time for.

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Well, this, so

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feel free.

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Hello! This is me, Katie, speaking.

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I have 2 questions. Actually, the first one concerns the foundation of the Catalan Sociological Society. So I was wondering why

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one of those founding members who was already active in the Isa and in the Indian Sociological Association. What was the motivation actually to create? In addition to this existing framework, a catalogue of the

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the imagine they could put forth a different agenda? Or was it necessary to integrate

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academic community as the regional level? For what reason I just out of curiosity. If you could say something more about that. And the other question I I had was when that you had taken a look at the works of Connie Karanata Bakin. She has written on the Jesuits.

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and I'll give you property right.

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She has written on the involvement of the Jesus in the institutionalization of sociology in Latin America, and has worked up quite nicely how, next to the regional bodies and the public institutions.

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the institutions that were funded and and driven by the G, so it created a different kind of network and effects that I had just research. Now, my computer, the book is apparently only available in Spanish. I don't know if you read Spanish.

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but I think it could be very interesting to to have a look at that. And one thing, if I remember where, from the time when I looked into that book, I think one thing she mentioned is how the Jesus

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developed that strand of liberation theology out of this sort of effusion or that encounter between sociology and the Socialist movement of of the time. So the opposition that you indicated between the Jesus agenda

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and the Marxism in it in Kerala. It. It was not the case in North America, so I would be curious to hear more about that. As well, thank you.

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You. You can answer now.

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Linda Luiz: yes. As to why there was a careless, societal society. India. India is a very vast diverse country, and the I, I think, at the time when the Careless was launching this society was founded. This is 1,971 in 1,971. It was not as easy to attend conferences outside the State knew about

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Linda Luiz: Liz on network. So I think, the the. From the words of some of the founders it they felt the need for a society. They felt the need to have a community of sociologists at a very regional. The is something far away. It was located in Northern India, maybe in Delhi, in Bombay, the the

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Linda Luiz: the center of the center of power was different. And within Kerala society. There at that time, in 1,971, there were just 4 postgraduate departments of sociology and the the heads of these departments would need for all kinds of action. We can administrative purposes. there was a sense of camera today among them.

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Linda Luiz: and they among themselves, they felt the need for a society that would represent regional councils. And also this was the in 1,971, when the society was formed Sociology in Canada was in a very fledgling state. So another reason why they wanted to form a society was also to

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Linda Luiz: to

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Linda Luiz: popularize the discipline, to popularize the discipline, to make the State, to make employers know that there is such a discipline that people are graduating with the with postgraduate doing post-graduation and research and sociology So they also wanted to disseminate the the notion of sociology at a very regional if they wanted their graduates to get jobs, so the State should know about it. Employers should know about it. Even the general public should know about. So they have these very practical reasons for

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Linda Luiz: for for creating this society, and the is also a national society, and that it had. the Isis W. Definitely provided a model

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Linda Luiz: and an inspiration for the founders of the Careless was Ranjing society. So the the constitution of the case, as I am told, was modern on the constitution of the Indian Society, and it's Journal, the Carol Associate. I just also took some inspiration from the sociological bulletin. Of course they were there, having differences in the way it was the actualized. But there was that inspiration, and there was a need regional felt need for a a society in order to popularize it.

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Linda Luiz: I have not come across this the this matter of

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Linda Luiz: just with, involved in the institutionalization of sociology, mathematics. That sounds extremely interesting. I will wait for it to come out in in English. I I would need to hear the name again. I I missed the name, but I I'd like to say just one thing about the Jesuit encounter with liberation. Theology is something that has also

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Linda Luiz: some to But that was in the 19 seventies or towards 19 seventies and eighties. I'm I'm given to understand.

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Linda Luiz: And when sociology is being established in care. Now that is, in the late the the early 1960 s.

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Linda Luiz: At that time illustration, theology have not yet got on. This is not yet the time of liberation, theology, and even even when liberation theology was developed by justice, and there were there. There is a famous Jesuit priest called Sebastian couple, who has, who's known to have used Marxism and Sociology, and written in Malaya in the

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Linda Luiz: So his. His work is famous.

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Linda Luiz: But again, it is not mainstream

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Linda Luiz: that work has not been quite mainstream. And one thing, another thing that we meant, we understand is that in the in the 1950 s. And 60, there was a great latent sense of

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Linda Luiz: contestation between the church and the and Maxism but it was by the eighties and nineties. Slowly there were different sections within the Church that if a few took up liberation theology. Then there were also others who saw that a Marxism and Christianity need not be antithetical. So there were different stands going on, but I think in the 1950 s. And 60 s. Where the starting point comes at that time

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Linda Luiz: Marxism was seen as an antagonistic in an antagonistic way rather than as something that could be taken forward. And because also the church was a major landowning entity. The church was a major

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Linda Luiz: The church was

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Linda Luiz: so at that time, but slowly, later on, with the Vatican through and other ideas of the Vatican, to including the definition of each other. The church that works for the poor and for the welfare those ideas caught on slowly, and then that anti-thitical relation with communism has dissipated.

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Linda Luiz: and both that.

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But yeah.

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okay.

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okay, I don't touch it anymore. No, no, it's my bad, my bad. Okay, no. So Linda the the the name that was of the Argentinian sociologist that was mentioned by Vipka is Fernanda, by Gill, and I I will send it. I will send the name to you by by by email as well as the the title of the of the book.

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Is that final?

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Okay, we'll do. We do that.

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Yes, it's someone like Apple, but that can can you? Can you please repeat the name of the the the the the Jesuit you mentioned, who was combining Marxism and sociology. Some someone like Apple is that

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Linda Luiz: I I I think I'll just send it in chat. It's Sebastian Top and K. A. P. E in.

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Linda Luiz: I can just write it here.

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Yeah, yeah, no, no, we don't have to have this window disappearing, because

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last month

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click on cancel is fine. Okay? So everybody gets the

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yeah, that's how, how can I? It's like like this.

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okay. I didn't. Yes, he.

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So

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Linda Luiz: yes, head, because raised. And then

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Linda Luiz: online

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and over, it's racing.

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Okay? Yes. So. Hedwig, please.

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Hedvig Ekerwald: thank you. Do you hear me?

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Hedvig Ekerwald: Yes, yes, Henry, okay, we can hear you. I I just want you to. You have studied the sociology for decades I mean sociology during several decades.

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Hedvig Ekerwald: Who has made I mean Caroline. So it's team. The big, was it? 37 million people there with something like that? Anyway, it's extremely big in in comparison to other food countries.

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Hedvig Ekerwald: It would be 3 or 4 Sweden. So if

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Hedvig Ekerwald: all that in a very big studies of which is like the plantation society model

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Hedvig Ekerwald: which we have talked about or like Cynthia you with spoke about Mexico, the the system of other country, that any really big studies that are made by the sociologists of Kerala? Or are the big studies on Canada system made by the Communists outside the sociology, like, I don't know which which this thing they have gone to.

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Linda Luiz: Yeah, I I would think that the the more visible studies, the large scale studies have come from the

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Linda Luiz: Communist, the Marxist theoretical signs including it

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Linda Luiz: at the 10 years ago.

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Linda Luiz: the Marxist the left wing in Kerala has commissioned a large scale study that covered the different, fastest of the population. Coming education the status of women for poverty.

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Linda Luiz: development environment, a a very wide ranging study consultations and study. And and that also came to publications. This large scale study was conducted by the left government itself.

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Linda Luiz: And but there are.

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Linda Luiz: I wouldn't say it's it's sociology versus collecting. I would say, sociology is a very, very tiny and very invisible part of the academic workforce. in kernel. it would have to be.

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Linda Luiz: There is a there is a very strong left wing theoretical that goes on, and there's a lot of work that comes from there. But there are. There are also those who do not profess to be left thing. But work that goes on in, especially in history.

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Linda Luiz: in the

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Linda Luiz: and it is a faculty of history, faculty of literature and philosophy are also very actively involved in the public discourses. so I I I don't. economics. I'm not sure how much of economics comes into the public. See? I I mean, doesn't

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Linda Luiz: economics also in in Kerala the sociologists have generally intervened in matter of. In matters of demography and gerontology. The study of aging is 1 one area in which the sociologists have given some leadership, and especially in in in recent times. Otherwise I I cannot see sociology taking up a major role in the public sphere.

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Hedvig Ekerwald: Thank you. Thank you.

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Thank you. Do we have any other

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question from the floor? Yes, please.

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Oops.

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Can you hear me?

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Linda Luiz: Yes.

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because I top of something. Hello, Linda! This is Charles Bobby on your career. Speaking? I have one question and one comment. My first question is.

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when reading your title and abstract, I was expecting a presentation about the about the history of sociology in India, meaning in the whole of India. And then I realized that it was actually a case to the on camera. So I was wondering why you decided to go for this focal point on Kara.

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And this was my question. My comment is that

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if someone tells you that during the history of sociology is in sociology, which to me is flimsy and preposterous. then you can draw on one passage from Bordeaux, because I I saw that you were quoting board or twice in your presentation. So it's in a question. And there's a in this passage, your board. You sorry, states that the boundary between history and sociology is somehow arbitrary and contingent.

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Thank you.

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Linda Luiz: thank you for that for the question and the comment. I will look up that both the comments

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Linda Luiz: As to the misleading abstract, I am extremely sorry I had repet and abstract keeping another session in mind, and my my paper was

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Linda Luiz: was accepted in another session a and a session that I had not expected, so I had. I re worked my my paper in order to fit the idea of networks and actors and South so exchanges as best as I could with the data that I had. Otherwise I was actually thinking of focusing on methods. And if I had looked at the methods alone

400
01:22:04.420 --> 01:22:19.470
Linda Luiz: I could have brought in a little more of India. But yes, again. my case study. My work has been on India. It is that from in in. When I was looking at the methods. And then it came to my conclusions. There were many areas in which we

401
01:22:19.480 --> 01:22:32.060
Linda Luiz:  many areas where I brought in the Indian context, but I was not able to present that here for again. Lack of time, various constraints. I'm extremely sorry for the for the misrepresentation.

402
01:22:33.030 --> 01:22:56.259
Linda Luiz: but I can. Kara has been the focus of my study. that is the reason I can speak much more authoritatively about Karla. What I what I have known about a sociology in other parts of the country and about is that the they have been very little of regional history. So and I

403
01:22:57.290 --> 01:23:04.500
Linda Luiz: I was not able to frame my paper in a in a way that I could satisfy both the abstract and also the the requirements of the session.

404
01:23:04.640 --> 01:23:07.130
Linda Luiz: So I hope to do that another another time.

405
01:23:08.460 --> 01:23:26.239
maybe to to to explain a bit more about how the how the program of the the the sessions of one Rc, are made up, that is in in the very first place, some people from the R. C. propose a number of sessions

406
01:23:26.350 --> 01:23:36.340
With the the thematic sessions, and and then there is a call for papers with that list of of of topics.

407
01:23:36.480 --> 01:23:43.130
and and then depending on the number of topics depending on the number of papers and abstracts you get.

408
01:23:43.130 --> 01:24:06.830
Well, we we have to to combine, because there might be too many papers for one session. There might be another session that didn't get enough. So there is a some kind of a mixture that is being that is being made. And it it may happen that the paper that was that had been prepared, like Linda said, for one thematic session just

409
01:24:06.830 --> 01:24:17.570
got moved to another one, which was the case of of Linda. So it also explains the kind of confusion that you that you perceived.

410
01:24:17.930 --> 01:24:21.480
have a question for it. Yeah, please.

411
01:24:21.960 --> 01:24:23.429
we still have time. Which is

412
01:24:24.020 --> 01:24:30.450
wonderful. Yeah. Okay, yes, Linda.

413
01:24:30.870 --> 01:24:32.929
just to follow up on the

414
01:24:33.030 --> 01:24:37.430
A question earlier about why you focus on Carol.

415
01:24:37.710 --> 01:24:52.629
 so I'm not sure why you did, but I can think of a good reason. My my impression is that you know what I know about India, that Kerala is one of those States.

416
01:24:52.720 --> 01:24:59.960
 where there is a great deal of solidarity along the lines of language.

417
01:24:59.970 --> 01:25:23.019
And it's not. I think that's not true of all states in India, but I think states like Tamil, Nad, and Kerala are, where there is a sense of unity along the lines of language as opposed to religion, for example. And so there is a strong identity, a strong Malali identity.

418
01:25:23.100 --> 01:25:26.280
so along those lines I wanted to ask.

419
01:25:26.300 --> 01:25:44.220
do you feel that, as the case of Bengal, for example, there has been a tradition of knowledge, creation among sociologists, or may not be along the lines of the discipline. But is there a sense after you know

420
01:25:44.230 --> 01:25:48.520
what 50, 60 years of sociology being established?

421
01:25:48.640 --> 01:25:53.169
Is there a sense of a particular school of thought or an approach

422
01:25:53.220 --> 01:26:00.689
in knowledge creation that has emerged from from Kerala, whether in sociology or another discipline.

423
01:26:05.210 --> 01:26:13.270
Linda Luiz: I thank you for pointing out the idea of the strong malaria identity. I I think that is one thing I should have mentioned.

424
01:26:13.300 --> 01:26:19.039
Linda Luiz: with regard to why there was an association of sociologists in Kerala.

425
01:26:19.300 --> 01:26:25.179
Linda Luiz: I I I don't know how far it is to, but it has been a remark, very in a very jovial manner that

426
01:26:25.210 --> 01:26:39.610
Linda Luiz: people from Kerala go anywhere and form an association. So I think that that sense of it may. It may sound funny, but I think that's sense of association coming together from unions. Farming communities. It is. It is

427
01:26:39.940 --> 01:26:43.140
Linda Luiz: It has taken deep route in in Kerala.

428
01:26:43.260 --> 01:27:04.720
Linda Luiz: It may also have been that there. There are many strong local ground level movements in Kerala bringing about unions and organizations be bringing people together. that has been going on for a long time. It it is possible that the formation of the carelast is logical. Society is also another. Another reflection of that tendency.

429
01:27:04.810 --> 01:27:14.879
Linda Luiz: no. So you mentioned in the case of Bangor that there has been a tradition of knowledge creation with regard to kernel sociology when I did my research. This is one of the

430
01:27:15.250 --> 01:27:33.819
Linda Luiz: one of the great Lac. In that I found that there has been no tradition of Kla sociology formed over these 50 60 years. I I I I I try to find out many reasons for one of the reasons that I I found is that sociologists in gala have

431
01:27:34.040 --> 01:27:36.689
Linda Luiz: have not quite

432
01:27:36.910 --> 01:27:45.880
Linda Luiz: It looked at the work of the predecessors. in one of the earlier slides. I mentioned the Anthrax speak about the lack of lack of

433
01:27:46.080 --> 01:27:52.440
Linda Luiz: like that. There's a lack of a history of sociology in India and Andre, but you mentioned that there is,

434
01:27:52.500 --> 01:28:06.739
Linda Luiz: There is a lack of acknowledgment of their preferences, and this is very, very proof. Care It is not that the sociologists of gala have not put on. There are many who have written books, articles in English and in the

435
01:28:06.740 --> 01:28:27.140
Linda Luiz: it has not. These have not consolidated into a tradition. I think also the fact that this is a discipline that is imported, imported lock, stock and marvel from perhaps the United States. I mean that it already had a structure when it came here. And and so that structure has continued. It is the sociology that is taught

436
01:28:27.140 --> 01:28:53.010
Linda Luiz: well sociology that to start, else where the sociology that was grown up that grew up elsewhere. Hmm But the kind of work that the peace first generation of second generation call us themselves Day and the Pkb. Nyar and Kataka, and then on many others who are writing At that period their works have not come into the syllabus. Their works have not become textbooks what they studied

437
01:28:53.120 --> 01:29:04.579
Linda Luiz: the research that they did about development in Kerala, a comparison between Education workers in Kerala and Andra, or the the the tribal communities in Vienna, or

438
01:29:04.660 --> 01:29:21.270
Linda Luiz: what a whatever research they did that did not come into the syllabus that is not studied, that is not positive. That may have been quoted in a doctrine thesis, but it never became part of acknowledged knowledge. it it so I think that is one reason why.

439
01:29:21.340 --> 01:29:28.960
Linda Luiz: there is no sense of school of thought that is emergent getting now and then. There is. It could also be. there are people who say that.

440
01:29:32.600 --> 01:29:34.019
Come on, not again.

441
01:29:36.340 --> 01:29:37.310
Dinner.

442
01:29:38.630 --> 01:29:39.970
you know, frozen

443
01:29:40.290 --> 01:29:45.900
Linda Luiz: who took a leadership and creating institutions. But that sense of an academic.

444
01:29:46.600 --> 01:29:59.790
Linda Luiz: academic, scholarly discussion that has not really come through in the Academic in the Association of Canada. So society, the the careless is Logical Society, or it's journal. What we see in the society

445
01:29:59.790 --> 01:30:23.510
Linda Luiz: and it's conferences, is that it it from the beginning. It it was a platform for students to discuss their research papers, and not really a place where the scholars, the leading leaders of Kerala sociology discuss their works, their research work. They would call up maybe one or 2 scholars from outside Google present their research work, and that will be discussed. But the leaders of Karla sociology, they were

446
01:30:23.540 --> 01:30:52.379
Linda Luiz: administrators more than our institution builders rather than academic leaders, so that could also be the nature of the conferences, and later, the nature of the journal. The initial 5, 4, or 5 issues of the journal were basically full of student papers. So it was not a journal where students would gain knowledge from their from season researchers, but rather that students presented students work. So I think these are some of the reasons why there was no

447
01:30:52.440 --> 01:30:56.949
Linda Luiz: tradition over these decades.

448
01:30:58.450 --> 01:31:06.890
Okay, I have a question for you, Linda. you, you you mentioned at the very beginning of your presentation, you

449
01:31:07.010 --> 01:31:29.579
you had the some quotes from madame, from Beta, and and someone else whose name I just forgot, and saying that there was a lack of historiography, of of sociology in India. But as as far as I know, there is at least someone who has worked on the history of sociology in India. And she's so Jata Patel.

450
01:31:29.700 --> 01:31:39.840
What is your relationship to to what she did? I was kind of surprised to see that you did not even mention her her name.

451
01:31:41.060 --> 01:31:43.799
Linda Luiz: Yes, since

452
01:31:43.840 --> 01:31:54.379
Linda Luiz: so so I did. I did. Mentioned very briefly that they have been studies of schools of thought. They have been studies of individual authors.

453
01:31:54.610 --> 01:32:09.040
Linda Luiz: so jath the pretense works what I have come across. again. There is also history there. It is not that there is no history at all, and that that is mentioned in my slide, but what I found lacking was that regional histories were very

454
01:32:09.070 --> 01:32:10.889
Linda Luiz: difficult to find

455
01:32:11.190 --> 01:32:23.589
Linda Luiz: regional. When I look for regional industries they, they were very random, maybe reflexive pieces by some authors about how they spent their score leave!

456
01:32:23.690 --> 01:32:35.810
Linda Luiz: When they were young! They did this so they would describe their the University departments that they studied in a very offhand not, you know, not, not as if they were recording the history. in a very

457
01:32:35.820 --> 01:32:48.909
Linda Luiz: well historical sense. So the history of regional sociologies was very difficult to find. There have been histories of India, and again, they have been overarching history. There has been work by

458
01:32:48.910 --> 01:33:12.430
Linda Luiz: And then another trend that I have seen in recent periods is the the reflex of Take on the practice of sociology. So in recent pages they have been edited works that look at the ref reflexive dates on the practice of sociology. Yeah, again, that does not make it industry. So so Jacqueline's work is definitely there. It's just that I I was trying to focus on the absence of the regional documentation of regional.

459
01:33:12.680 --> 01:33:14.140
Okay, thank you.

460
01:33:15.570 --> 01:33:23.560
Do we have any other comment on question from the floor, from online? Yes, Manuela, please.

461
01:33:31.560 --> 01:33:55.480
Manuela Boatcă: Can you hear me? Now? Now we do. Yeah, just to follow up on on your question, and to find, because I was also wondering what the place of somebody like Sujeta Patel is, who has been very prominent in the Isa, and whether that is kind of a competition between if I'm a global sociologist, I'm less of a national or regional sociologist

462
01:33:55.530 --> 01:33:58.130
Manuela Boatcă: is their attention regarding that?

463
01:33:58.260 --> 01:34:16.539
Manuela Boatcă: And then the maybe related to question to how you answered they funds. The query when you said you were looking for regional sociologies. Do you count urban sociology as A kind of sub type of that, because such a hotel has done a lot of

464
01:34:16.550 --> 01:34:30.360
Manuela Boatcă: work on cities in India, and in a historical sociological analysis. And if I may, I also have a question for me to? Or should I keep that related.

465
01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:45.489
Manuela Boatcă: I was wondering when the question about language barriers came. We thought that. The fact that there was no physical encounter between the Dependency theory group or the

466
01:34:45.490 --> 01:35:07.229
Manuela Boatcă: groups and the New World Group. is definitely kind of impeded by the language barriers, but at least from the Latin American dependency theory discussion. One of the critiques that been that Gonda Frank has kind of hijacked the prominence of the theoretical production because he published an English.

467
01:35:07.530 --> 01:35:27.479
Manuela Boatcă: In that case, if we're talking about language barriers, Was that? Or would that have been a possibility to still engage with dependency theory, because under Frank published in monthly review? Or was he doing that too late in the process for a dialogue to to still kind of take place. Thank you.

468
01:35:30.170 --> 01:35:31.369
Thank you. Manuela.

469
01:35:32.910 --> 01:35:34.120
Yeah, please let me know.

470
01:35:35.660 --> 01:35:39.600
Linda Luiz: so shall I?

471
01:35:40.520 --> 01:35:53.009
Linda Luiz: Oh, yeah. Well, as as you like it with, well, okay, start, Linda, please. Yes, So I so. Yes. So Jetha Patel's work is well known in in India, and

472
01:35:53.210 --> 01:36:09.990
Linda Luiz: it is a lacking on my part that I've not adequately E included her works her. I have come across the that work on Bobby University. So one of the One of the problems that I find that that I

473
01:36:10.160 --> 01:36:27.949
Linda Luiz: that I found with regard to my work is that I did not. There was works that focused on the metropolitan centers of sociology. There were histories that were worked on the metropolitan centers of sociology in India, including Bombay, Delhi, Lucknow, and these have been documented.

474
01:36:27.960 --> 01:36:55.139
Linda Luiz: I think. I. So Jacqueline's work all so she has. she has worked. She has written about the Bombay school, but then these 3 are not the only places where sociology has been has been going on in in India, and that is the That is the lack of historical orientation that that I find in with regard to regional Zoom Meetings now So Jacqueline may have done work on cities. She has done a lot of work on urban areas.

475
01:36:55.140 --> 01:37:02.169
Linda Luiz: But that is not the kind of work that I was trying to review for my work, which is specifically on sociology.

476
01:37:02.450 --> 01:37:21.980
Linda Luiz: How have sociology has been transacted in different regions in in the country over time? I, my case study was on camera, and that is why I focused on kernel I had I had almost nothing to start with. similarly, I I found very, very little work on

477
01:37:21.980 --> 01:37:50.910
Linda Luiz: very what I could call what you would call 35, as opposed to the metropolitan centers of those those centers have been documented, including by such a property. But regional centers like Kenya have been totally neglected, including bicycle on this from Canada. That is nobody. It it was very novel when people for people it was very number to hear about my project. This is only to see how you care about history. Oh, that's interesting. That's that's how I always that's that is a The reception that you know my title always go.

478
01:37:51.170 --> 01:37:55.820
Linda Luiz: So I think that I hope I have answered. And I think I move will work for my job to answer.

479
01:37:56.200 --> 01:37:57.880
okay, thank you.

480
01:37:58.170 --> 01:38:03.380
Meta Cramer: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Also for the question. so I'm

481
01:38:03.450 --> 01:38:18.119
Meta Cramer: I mean I can't. Same with clarity that there wasn't ever a physical meeting. I can't say that it was never recalled, and also never mentioned, and that is an oddity given that it's so often mentioned how personal and yeah, and how? What like these informal meetings took place.

482
01:38:18.170 --> 01:38:41.409
Meta Cramer: regarding this monthly review publications. They were also not referred to. So the works that are cited Iganda francs. the under the 1967. translation already of development. Latin America, and also for tattoos work on economic growth in Brazil, also published in English again.

483
01:38:41.410 --> 01:39:06.409
Meta Cramer: So there isn't actually a reference to the Spanish, so that might be the thing. However, I think I mean because this is so peculiar, and also after this session, I think it's even more peculiar. After receiving all the questions. I'm even more wondering how this happened. And it it can't be that it's only the language. It must be also this internal dynamics, probably of the social group that was so close. There was also very mail, and also engaged in also personal conflicts like when they dissolved.

484
01:39:06.410 --> 01:39:11.069
That was a you like. There were apparently also like really personal arguments about this.

485
01:39:11.130 --> 01:39:24.990
Meta Cramer: but also this internal thing. I think that the team highlights, or that I found first in this work that it was so economically oriented at these political philosophy and social theory. Questions also weren't attacked

486
01:39:24.990 --> 01:39:47.340
Meta Cramer: in this theoretic. A depth that would take like that would require that would bring larger theoretical question discussions with it. Because these these references that I mentioned they always only Footnote, it's like, see also good enough Hang and Rodney, for example. It's not an engagement in that. We discuss our differences also to you gonna find, or for Toato, and so on.

487
01:39:47.540 --> 01:39:52.460
Meta Cramer: so it's really a pretty thing. Yeah. But thanks.

488
01:39:53.800 --> 01:39:56.650
yes, please. We. We still have 10 min. So

489
01:39:56.890 --> 01:39:58.070
so

490
01:39:58.440 --> 01:40:25.690
meta, yeah, just to to follow up on that. Now you you are talking about. We are talking about the the possible relationship or the possible influence of the Latin American Dependency School on the New World Group. Yes, but you also cited. I think it was Lewis or somebody who was talking about Lewis work

491
01:40:25.690 --> 01:40:46.460
erez agmoni, which seem to emerge around the same time in, I would, simultaneously with the dependency framework. So what are we saying? Are we saying that the Caribbean School of Latin of dependency theory possibly emerged 150

492
01:40:46.510 --> 01:40:51.470
in parallel parallel to, you know, the Latin American school.

493
01:40:51.480 --> 01:40:55.519
So that's one question. The other

494
01:40:55.550 --> 01:41:02.269
related issue. I was just. this is more of a comment. You know there is a work on

495
01:41:02.820 --> 01:41:10.590
a development theory by beyond Heetna the book is called Development Theory in Transition.

496
01:41:10.820 --> 01:41:27.319
It was written in the Eightys, and the book makes a very interesting claim that dependency theory has a precursor in the work of data. By now the drain theory.

497
01:41:27.410 --> 01:41:32.719
the drain theory of development. And this was something written more than 100 years ago.

498
01:41:32.850 --> 01:41:51.459
I think, about a hundred years ago. now, Rodie, that's the name of the author. But this is a claim made by Heetna in development, theory and transition. and I I don't remember because I read this a long time ago. I don't remember whether there is a reference to the Caribbean dependency theory. You might maybe you can check that.

499
01:41:52.959 --> 01:42:15.939
Meta Cramer: Yeah, thanks so much for the last comment. I don't know. I didn't know about this book, and I would definitely look it up. So it exactly. Your your First question on the parallel to you simultaneously is exactly this problem I'm trying to dissolve because I think we can follow, go, and that in the 1950 s. We have this moment of 1,949 previous publication, 1,950 after Lewis. So this is.

500
01:42:15.940 --> 01:42:32.180
Meta Cramer: This is simultaneously off each other. I have a 10 years later, and then also more structuralist account and critique of Privilege in Latin America. We have also a more historical and structuralist account in in the Caribbean. And then we also have this Co citation. But

501
01:42:32.190 --> 01:42:55.980
Meta Cramer: yeah, as I, as I'm trying to describe, difficult to grasp relation. So I think this this is kind of the complex one is facing that they. They were simultaneous developments, simultaneous school, but at like later in the seventies, there was also a cross reference or reception, however, very limited. yeah, I think that makes it also a difficult to understand. Yeah.

502
01:42:57.040 --> 01:42:59.629
Meta Cramer: but thanks so much for the recommendation.

503
01:43:00.240 --> 01:43:01.730
Thank you.

504
01:43:02.340 --> 01:43:06.679
Are we? Are we done with questions and

505
01:43:07.209 --> 01:43:22.019
commands? No, of course, of course I will. I no, no, no, I I I I was first asking if there if there were other questions, and and and and and and and and if there were not any more.

506
01:43:22.059 --> 01:43:24.080
she

507
01:43:24.290 --> 01:43:26.820
yeah, yeah.

508
01:43:26.879 --> 01:43:53.300
no, no, of course. So now that there are not any any more questions and comments. Yes, I wanted to to thank the the both of you, Linda, and Linda and Meta. Cause. yeah, there were. There were many questions, and you were very active in defending your points, and and answering the the the, the questions, and well, thank you also for for the ones who asked questions from

509
01:43:53.611 --> 01:44:16.670
from online. And what I think we can, we can put an end to that session. So that is to the day as well. I do not know if there is one more session tomorrow of our Co. 8. I'm not that sure actually. but so thank you. Thank you very much for being here. Be it a bit on site, or it be it online. So have a nice

510
01:44:16.700 --> 01:44:19.669
have a nice day wherever you are.

511
01:44:19.730 --> 01:44:27.749
Have. Have a good evening here on Onsite. Thank you very much, and see you

512
01:44:28.280 --> 01:44:29.150
bye.