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Hello, everyone. We we started the second session of the day. and I will start to read the acknowledgment of the of country

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on behalf of every one. Gather I pay respect to the spirit of country here in arm where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and present cooperation, Urungeri gui guru, as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the nar aboriginal law.

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customs and custodians, ships, responsibility for country and the people. The country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us.

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I recognize the important contribution that fascination thinkers have met to have made to the sociology, including challenges to our terminal ways of thinking. With our fascination delegates in the room today for the contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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So

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we start with the presentation presented by Imat. Alatas! From the University of North Carolina, Chaba Hill.

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A title I get. I get to see my kids grow up the leaf. Experience of Muslim House house husband in Malaysia.

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Just click it in here.

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It should be all right.

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And the you are specialized in this or what doesn't work.

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Okay?

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Okay. thank you. So morning everyone. So today I'm going to be talking about my masters research that I just recently completed.

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And it's the lived experiences of Muslim house husbands in Malaysia

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specifically in with with regards to their experiences as as a father or as a recent full, full-time house house husband.

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So what's the significance of studying house husbands in in any context, you know, including including Malaysia. So how's Husband's day? You know, they they encourage or they spark debates about masculinity. Specifically.

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what is the symbolic significance of house husbands and masculinity studies.

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because on the surface house husbands they.

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the challenge traditional traditional gender roles. So.

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Now the man is a full time caregiver. Sometimes house husbands are referred to as male housewives, right? So ostensibly he's a

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he's challenging traditional gender roles.

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But is he doing this substantively, or is it just on the surface? Does he still reassert traditional gender ideologies

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and in terms of empirical contacts. You know the study on house husbands, complements.

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studies on women and religious traditions. So when we look at sociology, of gender, sociology, of religion, a lot of the focus has been on the lived experiences of women in religious traditions, including Islam, Christianity, Judaism.

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and and and other other religious traditions.

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a less so on men's lived experiences, much less on the lived experiences of men

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who embody alternative forms of masculinities such as the house husband. Additionally, there is a growing literature on the Muslim Muslim masculinities scholarship

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which has been very recent. It started in the early 2 thousands. So it started in the Middle East and North Africa, and slowly studies on Muslim. Men

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are being done in other parts of the world, whether it's diasporic Muslim communities in North America and Western Europe, and then, of course, in South Asia and Southeast Asia.

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So one example of the South Asian country our society is Malaysia. So this is a snapshot from a Malaysian magazine taken from March last year, and the head headline is in Malays, all translated.

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so on the left the headline reads in in black

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husband gets 2,000 meditation. Ring it!

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To be a house husband!

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And the subtitle in Red reads that the high salary of the wife of his wife, is the reason why more men are able to take on the role of a house husband.

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Now you notice the faces of the man on the left and right. They're the same same guy. His face is censored and his face is is pixelated. So the implication of this is that it's it's embarrassing. To be a house has been your own kind.

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your own country, or at least your own media outlets. find it very difficult to acknowledge that there are house husbands in in Malaysia.

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and you notice the face of of his wife on the right is also censored, which means it's equally embarrassing to be married to to a house husband

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in Malaysia.

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Of course not. Everyone agrees with this. So you have a Twitter user here saying that you know, if if this is an a gender role arrangement that the husband and wife have come to, that they agree to. Then, you know, leave leave them alone. Why are we? Why, we interfering in in their, in their, in their life.

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And, as I will show, with 2 examples of men that are interviewed.

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there's a more nuanced picture to, or being a house husband is very embarrassing, or it's something that I never wanted to do.

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So what I want to for focus I'll find out, is, you know, a general question. How do Muslim house husbands feel about their role and and social position, which

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traditionally has been at the bottom of the gender hierarchy, men who are not breadwinners, who are contributing very little income to the to the maintenance of the household.

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and more specifically, what? What challenges do they navigate internally and within the Muslim community, as they take on the role of a stay at home, father.

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so to answer these questions I did qualitative study. So I interviewed 22 men and I compared to groups of respondents. So men who are full time house husbands may be earning freelance income on the side.

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and also 9 men who are working full time. I wanted to get their perspective also. but there's a bit of overlap in the sample. So of the 9 men working full-time, 2 used to be ex-house husbands.

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and I'll present the excerpts of one of them.  and the 13 house husbands. I say 2 ex house husbands, because now they are

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focusing full time on on their graduate studies.

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So why, 2522 men. So how suspects in Malaysia are?

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It's a very niche population. So a figure from 2,017 showed that 60,000 men out of a population of 32 million

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house husbands. So it wasn't easy to find. So I had to really rely on Co call calls on social media Facebook and Twitter advertising, advertising, the study.

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a snowball sampling to house husbands or respondents that I already had recruited.

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I also had the help of women's groups, Ngos, women's Ngos in Malaysia that I interviewed before for another study. So India and I got 22 men.

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one or 2 men actually declined to be interviewed because they didn't like the term House Hospital, and they they felt very uncomfortable with being interviewed in that in that capacity.

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So my main argument on my main findings is that there there's a a tension specifically a attention of masculinity. When men talk about the house as well in relation to their fatherhood experiences.

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so they they understand the importance of being a father, not just being a father, but a emotionally and physically present father for for their kids.

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but they can't shake off, you know, traditional stereotypes about about about gender. Specifically, gender stereotypes about care. The you know what to them is a feminine nature of care.

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and also heteronomative assumptions of masculinity. And I'll get into that in detail now.

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So I I'll present 2 examples or 2. 2 experiences of respondents that I spoke to the first is a is a respondent, is working full time now, but was a house husband for one and a half, one to one and a half years during that pandemic. So he has both both perspectives perspectives on being ours has been and now working full time.

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So these are quotes from first respondent.

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So again, I talked about how respondents appreciate the role. I valued the role of being a father. So he said, Yeah, taking care of the children is stressful. But I don't see the job as a

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as a chore or a house to. I see it as a puck. I see it as a benefit.

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you know. I get to see my children grow up in front of me.

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I even get emotional when I send them off to school, so he has that attachment to his son which he really really values.

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But he adds a caveat, which is, if it's a longer period. Maybe the way I think about fatherhood might change

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 and he's only taking care of 2 kids if he had to take care of more. Then again, he might feel differently, and it might be stressful he couldn't.

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He couldn't even imagine other fathers taking care of more than 2 children.

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So, and before I go on I should add that I identified this respondent as one of the more

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one of the more progressive respondents among my sample, progressive in the sense that he was very adamant, that Islam did not attribute gender roles to men and women.

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and I think and this is the respondent who was a lot more explicit about that.

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But you still see, but very subtly, or perhaps not that he still has stereotypes about

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what it means. Well, what it means to be a man, what it means to be a male caregiver.

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So he said, I always make this kind of joke, and he's half half joking. If my wife earns a lot of money, maybe she becomes a millionaire

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I might as well wear a made costume and do the work itself. So

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you know, using using a maid, 99% of whom are women right? Using the made as a humorous point of reference to to reassert traditional gender ideologies.

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so not even become a house husband. But he he! He takes the joke even further, and says, I might as well become a full-time maid.

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So remember, this is someone who who is very. you know, who doesn't think that there is such a thing as.

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or rather who deemphasizes gender roles in a in a Muslim family, but he still has this perception that care is necessarily a a feminine feminine endeavor, and hence, if you would if you were to become a full-time caregiver or a longer period.

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he might as well wear a female-made costume.

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So the second respondent I wanted to talk about was.

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it relates to tensions of masculinity, and being a house.

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tens of masculinity in being a house has been with regards to sexuality, or rather discomfort, with. non heterosexual. Sexualities

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so similar to the respondent before, he said, yes, I value the time with my children. I see them grow up in front of me.

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and you know I've witnessed every milestone of my children's lives. And

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and in the last 2 lines of the first paragraph he says, you know I feel I feel bad for my wife, who can't even witness the same things that I'm witnessing. She's she's too busy at night.

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and he has been able to witness everything for for almost a decade.

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Then, during my conversation with him, he related to me an incident, and this was when the family was outside Malaysia. The wife was posted abroad, working in an overseas country by her.

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posted abroad by her food and beverage company. So one day he was waiting at his children's school. They were going to an international school and he was waiting to pick up his. I think his son

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and an American lady approached him and said, you know I always see you at school. That's great. Who is your partner? Where does he work?

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So the assumption that the the American lady had is that

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if if a man is very physically involved, it, it doesn't make sense for her that a straight. A straight man would be very physically and emotionally involved in his children's life. It must be a gay, gay parent.

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So that's one layer.

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but it's the way he reacted to that assumption. That's the important part. The way he reacted to

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on that question he felt very uncomfortable and got a bit defensive and said.

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You know it's not. It's bad enough that I'm a house husband now people think. Oh, now, rather she thinks I'm gay, so no, no, no, no.

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my wife

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and I put wife in capsule because of the way he said, my wife. my wife works with an F and D company.

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So okay, fine, she apologized and said, I thought you're gay.

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So the last line really indicates the discomfort that he had with being misconstrued as being gay

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just because he's very physically and emotionally involved with the lives of his children. Americans being Americans, they think father and father makes a family.

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So so this is the tension tension in terms of

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you know. Yes, I am a father, but just just because I'm involved, you know. Please don't misunderstand me as being as not being a straight man, I can be straight, and I can still be involved with.

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the light in the lives of my children.

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So in the last slide. I just want to maybe present some theoretical implications. Reflections.

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So

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these are 3 commonly used areas of masculinity to talk about

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the lived experiences of man

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around the world.

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So I found that a lot of my respondents or some of my respondents.

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I embodied each of these 3 teams of masculinity. So you had respondents who were very clear that

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no matter what role the man assumes, the man is always the the bread winner.

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So you have a model of hegemonic masculinity which talks about the which puts the breadwinner model on a pedestal.

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Then you have hybrid masculinities which on the surface might try to challenge hegemonic models of masculinity.

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And the respondent who talked about wearing a made costume.

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you know, initially, initially, I thought that okay, he's very progressive about gender roles, and he doesn't think a man. He doesn't think that a man is a bread winner or the head of the household in a Islamic

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in a Islamic household.

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But then he still has these stereotypes, which, which just

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which ends up, reinforcing his reinforcing traditional notions of masculinity.

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inclusive masculinities on the other end talks about how masculinities are now no longer arranged in a hierarchical way, but arranged in a more horizontal egalitarian way.

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and this means that homophobia has severely been reduced. Men feel more comfortable, expressing alternative forms of sexuality.

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and I also found that some respondents were actively challenging their own traditional gender ideologies.

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and even expressing guilt or expressing guilt and discomfort with their own traditional gender ideologies, acknowledging their own male privilege, whether as a house husband or as a man working full time.

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and they really try to be more

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more inclusive of other gender ideologies. So

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those are just on the reflections. And I happy to take questions later. Thank you.

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And now we go to the next presentation that is called vulnerability and resilience in jmen

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who in unintendedly become fathers by, just in

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just

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you also going to tie myself?

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 thank you. All lovely to be here and lovely to hear about all your research in a different context on fatherhood. So my name is Eustina Vonne Bake. You can pronounce my first name as Justine. That's better pronounced in English.

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and I'm here on behalf of myself and my colleagues, and we study young unintended fatherhood. So I will explain a bit more about our a participant group, but it's a fathers from the age of 16 to 25 in the Netherlands.

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The average age that a father has his first child in the Netherlands. 33. So it's quite a difference.

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so we are from the Erasmus school of health policy and management water them as the second biggest city of the Netherlands. if Some of you may not know And yeah, I'll be talking about this. paper that we are still working on, but we are finishing up. If some of you could take a picture, my mom would be very happy

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all right. So, starting with the background of this research

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what we saw when studying previous literature on young fatherhood. So the the main focus of this research tends to be on young fatherhood, not necessarily unintended fatherhood. But

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We do see that a lot of young parents also unintendedly become fathers. So what we kind of saw is these 2 perspectives that really come up. So, on the one hand, we know that there are negative health outcomes. linked to young and unintended pregnancy.

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So you can think of, for example, a higher risk of depression among parents, but also a lower birth weight of children. Such health outcomes. We also know that young fathers in many different countries tend to find themselves in very vulnerable circumstances. One

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so think of a low income, a lack of a job They tend to have a very difficult relationship with their own father. And lastly, they tend to have a a difficult relationship with the mother of the child, so there can be a romantic relationship. But often the relationship is difficult or there is no romantic relationship at all. it's a casual sexual relationship which yeah, makes it also difficult to to to stay in contact with the child.

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And, thirdly, we see support barriers, which means that healthcare. Professionals in general do not involve fathers very well. but they also do not involve young fathers in specific within health care. So they're not really involved in that sense, and we can also see that young fathers tend to not ask for help and not open up about the struggles that they experience, which is

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also, you know, generally, maybe a masculine value. So we see these sort of risk factors when it comes to young fathers. But what we also saw in the literature is this side of opportunity. So we all know that paternal involvement has very positive effects on health outcomes for parents and children. So we know that this could be a very protective factor in these often vulnerable young pregnancies.

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And we see, when we look at the literature and young fatherhood that has been already written a very high motivation from young fathers to do better than their own fathers. So there is definitely also opportunity in these stories, and what we saw as the literature, literature tends to focus on either the risk or the opportunity. And we didn't yet see really the combination of these perspectives.

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So what we wanted to do is combine these perspectives using vulnerability and resilience theory. Now, both of these theories focus on the reactions to adversity. But they have a different focus. So vulnerability focuses more on the risks, and it can be defined in 3 different ways.

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a higher likelihood of experiencing adversity. So in this sense, adversity would be this unexpected life change of becoming a a parent at a young age! But you could also say it's a a higher likelihood of experiencing the negative effects of that adversity.

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and we can also define it as an effect of adversity. So this points to the reinforcing dynamic that happens when you already are vulnerable, and then you are likely to experience adversity more than others. On the other hand, we have resilience which focuses more on those opportunities, so it can be defined as the process of recovery or the management of resources needed to facilitate positive adaptation.

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This includes assets, which is more the resources, side, and actions which this is an important element of the theory. and it's a very good complementary element of resilience, because it points to individual behaviors that that people do to try to positively adapt. So it grants. People more agency.

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That sort of the the. The sort of the weakness of the vulnerability side is that it can sketch people as passive victims that just undergo circumstances. But the the strength of it is obviously pointing towards this history of vulnerability and and and sort of the circumstances that contribute to it. and then sort of the strength of the resilience is, is really pointing to this sense of agency that people always try to overcome and adapt to difficult circumstances.

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but then the weakness can be that people are blamed for their circumstances, so they are made responsible, saying something like, Oh, you should just have, you know, dealt with it better. So we believe that these 2 perspectives are quite complementary. And yeah, are very good theories to use to look at this this group of young fathers one.

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So that brings us to the aim of our study, which is to explore the tension between vulnerability and resilience in young men who unintendedly become fathers.

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and we researched this by speaking to 14 young Dutch men who recently experienced an unintended pregnancy. So recently we defined as about one and a half years ago, so that they could still remember everything quite well.

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Recruitment was difficult, but we reached most young fathers through an Instagram post of a Dutch Popular young mill influencer, who posted the call, and we also have a broader study, in which we also spoke to young mothers. So we also asked those mothers to link us to the fathers of their children.

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So we did. 14 semi-structured interviews, one to 2 h of mainly face-to-face conversations. And then we analyze the data, using thematic analysis, focusing on recurring themes.

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So moving on to our findings. We found several big themes that stood in attention with each other. So first of all, what we heard a lot was mental health issues by young fathers.

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So they reflected on this big life change that was unexpected, sometimes unwanted. Many young fathers actually said that they would have preferred abortion. So, moving on from this preference or abortion to actually becoming a father, and not being able to really control the situation, because, of course, the choice lies with the mother of the child really often led to depressive episodes, to anxiety, to panic.

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So this sort of vulnerability in in in terms of mental health, kind of, stood into tension with this very self-reliant attitude of wanting to in a very short-term perspective, wanting to fix and prepare for fatherhood. Really this like

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action mode which, on the one hand, is quite resilient. But, on the other hand, it kind of leads to the second vulnerability which is being socially and emotionally disengaged. So really focusing on day to day preparation very practical and not having the time to reflect on their own emotions. And yeah, the big life change that happened.

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So we can really see. men reflect on not asking for help. and really sort of yeah, wanting to do everything by themselves.

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And then another really big sort of vulnerability was this lack of suitable social and professional support? So what we saw is as mentioned in the beginning. indeed, many young fathers had a difficult relationship with the mother of the child. We, of course, know the term maternal gatekeeping, which is a a big theme within fatherhood. But it is definitely, it's probably even a more. yeah, clear theme

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this group, because these relationships tend to be so difficult, so there was really clearly often the mother of the child, pretty much stating that they thought the father would be a bad father, so really keeping their distance and limiting the contact with the child

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but also that professional support again. So, for instance, a midwife who doesn't really involve a father in in in any kind of professional contact, or doesn't involve them in a way that speaks to them that really speaks to their way of communication?

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and then, thirdly, which is also quite a big theme in terms of the social support. Was this disconnect from male friends?

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So obviously these these men were still very young. Other male friends weren't fathers yet they really started to feel a disconnect as these fathers would, you know, still go to parties they would still be studying. They would be focused on very different themes in life than they were. So they and They also noted this lack of energy to engage with with parties and and talk about very mundane stuff while they were dealing with parenting, which was such a big

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life change. So? yeah. And then, on the other side, you really still see that that sort of pragmatist, confident attitude of men saying that they felt that they were very good fathers. They were very motivated to to do differently. But there's also just many vulnerabilities that complicate that.

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So I want to quickly show you a 2 quotes from a respondent guys which is a very Dutch name. obviously not his real name or his real face. And he reflected on, yeah, he was really one of the men who had a very difficult relationship with the mother of the child. He was in a casual sexual relationship, found out that she was pregnant

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during pregnancy. He really prepared to take on this father role. So he had stopped studying and he started to work a job because he felt like, Oh, I have to like financially prepare for fatherhood.

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But then she pretty much cut off contact. She didn't want to be in contact with him. She didn't want to involve him during pregnancy, so he really went through this. This was also during Covid So he really went through this kind of depressive episode, so he says, I was just gaming and smoking weed every day, just to continually numb myself to get through the day, and then he says, I felt lifeless, grumpy, and irritable.

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So then we really clearly see this mental health issue. But, on the other hand, he says, I do not know why. Maybe it is something from the past, but whenever I have a problem I'd rather stand in the corner, so to speak. Then I solve it, and then I come outside again. And I want to talk about what happened. So this very pragmatic attitude of okay, I just have to solve something quite practical. and I don't really ask for help, even though help. My yeah might be available from friends or family. He doesn't feel like he wants to

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ask people for help. So this is attention that really became evident throughout the research.

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So to conclude, what we saw is that There was a clear vulnerability of vulnerability in assets which really complicated. this attempt by young fathers to become resilient, so they they want to be resilient. They have a resilient attitude. They are very self-reliant, motivated, confident. They have this very sort of

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the action, modest to to fix things and prepare things, but they can never achieve being resilient just by themselves and the unsuitable support from others. The mother of the child professionals, and this lack of connect with other male friends and their own reluctance, and asking for support.

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and really complicates that resilience. And it enhances those vulnerable circumstances that they are in. So

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we are also working on the implications, but I don't have time to to go into those, but we are also working to really make sure that our results are taken into account by professionals. We have a project in which people that are being educated to become midwives will see our findings, and also other findings from research in the Netherlands on young fatherhood, and be able to involve those fathers more. So 150.

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Please let me know if you want to discuss the implications of this research further.

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And that was it.

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Yeah. thank you for your attention.

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Thank you very much for the the presentation. I hope that we have. We'll have time after that to to discuss a more resol of all of you. And now we go to our online

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presentation will try to get to a Lovaca. Are you there?

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Tebogo Lobaka: Yes, I'm here.

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Can you try to share your presentation?

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Tebogo Lobaka: Just a second.

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Tebogo Lobaka: you yeah.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Good is it showing?

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I don't see it. No.

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Tebogo Lobaka: is it? Let me just do this.

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Come on.

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Tebogo Lobaka: You should show it now.

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Something is moving.

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Yes, something's more in a house. Yes, or a king. Put it full of scream, please.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Yes, I'm doing that.

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Thank you. To Bogo. So the floor is yours. You have 50 min.

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Tebogo Lobaka: thank you very much. My name is I am presenting from South Africa. I think right now it about 3 in the morning.

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So if my

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Tebogo Lobaka: I'm presenting a a. A paper titled, none of us then, fathers of them, but absent. it's not full screen. Can you put it full screen, please.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and

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Tebogo Lobaka: let's do this

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or displacement.

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This place settings on the top.

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on the top displacement of the second to to your right on the top to you, right?

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The second option display settings

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Tebogo Lobaka: and can see that. Let me do this.

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Tebogo Lobaka: How's that?

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Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect going.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Thank you very much.

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Tebogo Lobaka: As I was saying, I am presenting an article titled Resident, not absent.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and they can't even hold that, not as a as play in as their children.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now this paypal comes out of my Phd. Which was accepted early this year, and it does also published in an article earlier this year and in that.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and that's quickly just outline. I won't go through it. And now it's a little background what I've what what I found as I was doing my background research on this, I found that

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Tebogo Lobaka: a majority of

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Tebogo Lobaka: when, when when you look at Philadelphia and it's literature, you find that most of the literature is heavily influenced by the actions and views of

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Tebogo Lobaka: called the court system women and children. and not so much the least of the fathers in the subject.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and Mavungu and Patel off us 2 reasons for this one. They they argue that it's often difficult to find fathers who are going to partake in this studies. Number 2 is that children and women are mainly affected by a fatherhood for the absence. As a result. Then I tend to approach a woman and she over over men.

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Tebogo Lobaka: However, I I found we found that this then leaves a fathers portrayed as dead beat fathers. They'd be many. They're not they. They don't care for their children, and it is because their voice is not. It's not really a and a

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Tebogo Lobaka: taking, because the consideration in the research. and therefore this study then begins to make a a, A, a, a.

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Tebogo Lobaka: a, a, an an effort to to, to to contribute to the going research, on the whole, the first play from the first themselves, and have to display the May the myth that, as far as physical presence is a good indicator, for his is his involvement.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now the study proposed a generally was to to determine, by means of a left cost, perspective, the role that none reason for us play in the outbreak of their children.

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Tebogo Lobaka: And there I was, 3 objectives that that that I had number one is to what extend to fathers. are they able to sustain a consistent K given role over the left cost? Now I wanted to focus on

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Tebogo Lobaka: over the left

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Tebogo Lobaka: until the child is is old, not just a a once in a while, and that they why don't they play consistent over over the that that child's life

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Tebogo Lobaka: number 2 to explore indicators of his fatherhood in our context South Africa and number 3 to check or to determine which and who's side fighting role for 500 rules do we exclude when we assume that presence, equality, environment?

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now, I I then did a qualitative a to this.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and about 23 black fathers, and sort of like our interviewed and said interviews. A. A took place.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and the fastest way between the ages 25 and 64,

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Tebogo Lobaka: and although this seems to be a a a huge eighth gap, the idea was to say, was to see a. How fathers who young fathers and all the fellas, how they, how they, they, they, they respond to a being denied access to their children.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and in this in this type, then, almost all the fathers in this study had at least one child who lived in a different household and the than themselves. Interviews for the 245 min, and due to COVID-19 restrictions. I didn't have to then and do about 10 studies at telephonic collie, because I could not. I could but meet them 56.

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Tebogo Lobaka: I didn't use snowboarding, sampling and people sampling to a to to get this, respondents

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Tebogo Lobaka: and all interviews a way. W. What people correct within within the first week after the the entire view, and most of most of of my time views were done in English. However, if you were done, it's a suit in which are 2 common languages in the area where I did the study.

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Tebogo Lobaka: And I use conduct analysis to to then analyze the data.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now, just a A. A. Quickly, and in this study about 10 of the men in the study had a post graduate degree, that is, on us. Masters or Phd. And 3 of them had an undergraduate degree, and 6 had a initial diploma. 4 had to be treated, and and none of these men had less than a minute pre qualification.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and I'm gonna stay tells one of them where Executive Manager 6 was in a manager. 3 was way. Better management managers, one on technician 7 was clerical. One was self-employed and you unemployed.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now, why am I? Why am I showing this a a a profile?

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Tebogo Lobaka: It's because if you, if we, if it shows that when a father has is in the high income quinties in South Africa, they tend to be more involved than those at a lower income.

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Tebogo Lobaka: And that's why this is the important that we we we see which income Quintiles, that the far as effort within

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Tebogo Lobaka: now I then found. And this is. This is also common in literature, that they are about to, that that fathers become nurses and follows. In South Africa. Number one is following a child out of wedlock.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Unfortunately, it's a roughly cut. Is that when you have a child out of Wordlock and catch high, they are things that you get. You must satisfy before you can be a regret as a father to a child. Either you pay lobola, which is a bright price for a child, or you pay in which is a payment made as a way to compensate the the parents for having a child before marriage.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and so most of us fail to to pay this, and therefore they denied access to their children.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Number 2. There's there's also the expectation to be a provider, and both for us, if they fail to become provide us is that they are rejected by, by, by, by, by, by the mothers, or it's not a family, or they themselves reject themselves because they can't provide for their children.

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Tebogo Lobaka: The second, who then is divorced, or a in the leaderships? What I found interesting here is that that instance where a father would be allowed to see the child and have contact with the child until they

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Tebogo Lobaka: as soon as their email or their daily partner. Then they that denied access to their children. We I found instances where father's thought or the father was saying that the why, my my girlfriend thought that we made it back together, and this as as soon as I had a a new girlfriend. She then did not get any access out of spite.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and interestingly, in almost all the cases in this study the mother always gets full custody of a child, and for us only get re-station rights.

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Tebogo Lobaka: They said. He's in on the set a. Who is relocation now.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and most of the fathers in this study.

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Tebogo Lobaka: It comes from provinces such as Lympho and the Northwest, but they are now in, in housing and being in how they they left their kids. But they' back in, in, in, in, in rural areas, and to travel back home. It's long distance. They can't go there as often as as as they would like.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now. A to findings.

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Tebogo Lobaka: I I I only picked up one finding on this and that was from Cedric. Centric is the only father in that in in the whole study, who was one married to the mother of the child.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and 2 still had access to his children, but together with his wife, took a decision that they would leave their children at home in in, and they would then go together to how they, and leave their children in the in, in the care of their of the of the M. 10 grandparents, and he's the only father who had access to his child when he wanted and and and without administrations.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now the major theme of this study is the cake, and that that that that man fulfill.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and he's still currently in South Africa, and I think some in part of the world. We find that the whole of father has been limited to finish up provision, and it wasn't discipline, however, in the study I found that fathers I began to embrace the fact that their whole goes beyond just financial provision. But it it's it's a whole, not that that that includes being there for a child, emotionally and physically.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and most of the fathers in this study longed to spend more time, their children, both quality and quantitative, with their children, but many be more. The fact that they can't do it because their location is is, they're too far from their children, or they have the net access because of that.

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Tebogo Lobaka: But I also found that I'm not beginning to embrace the concept of new fatherhood, which means they are now beginning to do more care work that was mainly there for women such as basing a child. They can charge to school, spend time with a child in conversation.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and these for us, are now doing these activities, that that that a a to our children, to to women. I I like the fact that most of this fathers we're we're trying to make for the mistakes of their fathers. So, for if your father did not, was not there, that was not they. They were not trying to rectify that they present in that in his life.

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Tebogo Lobaka: I'll just pick up on on a few a a a a quote I just a at hands with them, Fran says, and when he he he made he an effort to teach straight everything that he's 5, did not teaching, so that out to drive, he says, although he he's he and his son still choose when they meet. They're basically friends.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Kumar says he spends more time with his child in conversation.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Interesting is that his tag is only one year old, but he says I allow him to speak to me and teach him how to make for sentences. Mike says I do think that that's a change feeding that child flows in them and playing with them. And and and this is these are more rules which have, had it been reserved for women, a. A. A historically.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Now I did. As for this, in their view, what is a responsible father? And you find with such as being there for a child coming up being there for for the webin of the child chosen, the child showing affection, you listening to your child and playing with a child. And this is, if this is a

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Tebogo Lobaka: a at mainly it had not been there. If if you look at in a in South Africa that fathers are generally a silent, very upset, even though they are present in the in the household. So this shows that 5 are not beginning to embrace the whole of being present and involved in in the last of of their children.

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Now, I mean, look for me to left.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Yes, no, I I I'm I'm I'm concluding now the following are the takeaways from this study, number one is that there is a difference between non-resistant fagas, and and therefore

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Tebogo Lobaka: we need to. Then South Africa. And I,

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Tebogo Lobaka: I call the word to test that to explore this, a. A. A, this, this, this this difference, because currently the nitrate of the cart has focused on Fr has been absent, even though they are up and only physically. But they they provide for their children. So we need to now begin to to explore why it needs to be non- resident, and and as opposed to being upset.

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Tebogo Lobaka: Number 2, it is very important that the assumption that a following only happens within a new to a familiar context, is both misleading and limited to to and fatherhood, and therefore we need to then explore far out from a different area of, because it's Africa. We have a different number from it, not only in nuclear families.

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Tebogo Lobaka: And there's also a new breed of I would that that that that is imaging, those who are involved in active in, bring in a that children. And therefore

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Tebogo Lobaka: research also shows that none of us, and files play a more involved role than women care to admit.

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Tebogo Lobaka: and in confusion, therefore, is that they are Billy, as that presents that could then fight us from from from from being active. This includes a fair to pay, Or in our, or to pay maintenance? This become the biggest reason by us are not allowed to a a. A. A allowed to be both nationals lives. Lastly, the landscape is in South Africa. Last year a court ruling was made where a mother was sentenced to 50 days in prison. For today. If I, if I access

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Tebogo Lobaka: this court ruling begins not to say a landscape where first I'm not giving more time, or I given, I given a a, a a different view beyond just being seen as a a furniture provider, but also being involved for the, for us, in the, in, the, in, the

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Tebogo Lobaka: thank you. And that is a identical. If if you want to look at it and lose my details.

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Thank you very much, Deborah, for interesting presentation.

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And now

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we are going to pass to the 4 1

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the presentation title, Comprehensive muscle in the theoretical framework of Fathers in between. In the organization by Ashley Bor Weist, from the University of South Australia. I'm Mark Graham from the University in international d. Catalonia.

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Okay. so good morning. Everyone. Thanks for coming along.

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We are going to present a model with theoretical model to you today that we've been working on.

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We're still ironing some of it out so hopefully, most of it makes sense.  So I'm going to take you through the first half, and then I'm going to pass over to Mark to take you through the wrist.

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So we're introducing a theoretical model that we've been working on called reflexive masculinity. It attempts to explain why some men might choose to use flexible working arrangements, and some men might not.

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It's essentially a theory about why some men might remain complicit with hegemonic masculinity rather than expressing their masculinity in a different form. We're applying this model to mend use of flexible working arrangements, but we think it probably has wider applicability.

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So the preeminent theory in the field of men and masculinity studies the theory of hegemonic masculinity.

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of course, proposed by Raw and Connell. The theory outlines that there is a dominant ideal of what it means to be masculine, and importantly, that most men will want to embody this ideal because of its take ononic status.

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So the dominant ideal isn't fixed. It's a form of masculinity that occupies a hegemonic position within a pattern of gender relations.

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So this means that no particular form of masculinity is inherently hegemonic, and that the hegemonic form of masculinity may change over time.

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So a more Recent theoretical development in the field of masculinity studies is caring masculinity that's described by Eliot as masculine identities which incorporate values of care. So

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things such as positive emotion, interdependence, relationality, and the rejection of domination. So this conception of masculinity in many ways is an opposition to the current form of hegemonic masculinity, in which more traditional performances of masculinity are valued, those that demand suppression and vulnerability, and of certain emotions, privilege, competition, and aggression, and encourage domination over the feminine.

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So there are some theorists who propose that caring masculinity could become the new form of hegemonic masculinity.

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But how do we get to that new form?

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Complicit masculinity is an aspect of the theory of hegemonic masculinity. Of course, also proposed by Connell. Cornell describes complicit masculinity as being embodied by men who do not fulfill all the tenants of hegemonic masculinity.

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but that still support, whether implicitly or explicitly, the operation of hegemonic masculinity in order to appear to be passing or practicing it.

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Cornelle suggested that most men are not able to fulfil all the tenants of pagonic masculinity that is, by performing in in line with take Themonic traits. and that they're not able to fulfill all those tenants at all times.

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So when acting complicit masculinity enables men to continue to benefit from hegemonic masculinity and the status that this brings within patriarchy. And that's something that Cornell term to the patriarchal dividend.

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So what the enactment of complicit masculinity also does is, continue to reinforce current hegemonic masculine ideals rather than challenge them.

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So these men who enact complicit masculinity actually hold a lot of power in progressing an alternative form of hegemonic masculinity by challenging the current hegemonic form, or reinforcing and maintaining the current form by remaining complicit with it.

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So this aspect of the theory of hegemonic masculinity has received relatively little theoretical and empirical attention, though it has a large role in reproducing and maintaining hegemonic masculinity.

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So for the current form of hegemonic masculinity to be challenged and to progress to any new form of masculine ideal. We propose that more attention needs to be paid to these men in the middle.

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and in doing this we can then theorize about the conditions which may facilitate or prevent the enactment of complicit masculinity.

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and the conditions which might foster the enactment of an alternative form of masculinity.

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So just to give a bit of background about flexible working arrangements, we both research in this area, and we thought it provided a really interesting case. Study a theorizing about these men in the middle.

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and the choices that get made concerning work and family and the organizational context do have a lot of potential to either reinforce and maintain hegemonic masculinity

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and the valuing of these traits, or to contribute to progressing an alternative form.

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So we're probably all familiar with flexible working arrangements, arrangements which theoretically allow the person more control over, where, when, and how they work, and the ability to attain work, life integration.

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But it's been well documented that for men there is stigma associated with using flexible working arrangements as well as career consequences, including stunted career growth

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and researchers, found that social norms and unsupportive organisational cultures do play a big role in signaling to men that they should not feel entitled to request or to use flexible working arrangements.

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and so

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that sends the message to men that not only their claims to flexibility are not valid, but that their identities as fathers should be centered on financial provision rather than caregiving.

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And that's an enactment of masculinity and farthering identity that's more in line with current the current hegemonic form of masculinity.

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So there remain barriers for men's greater involvement in caregiving and also incentives for men to remain complicit with the current hegemonic form of masculinity within this context and that presents a barrier to potentially progressing an alternative form of hegemonic masculinity, such as gearing masculinity.

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So I'll pass over to Mark now, and he will take you through some of the theoretical concepts that we're utilizing in our model and explain the role that we see these concepts as playing in the choices that men have available to them about work and family.

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No.

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good morning, thank you, Ashley. So in the next 6 min I will present the rest of the concepts and the visual model. So

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I still already present masculinity and the use of flexible work arrangements, and I present, I will present contexts, abitos, institutional and personal conversion, factors, reflexivity and deposition and a fail. So let us start with the first one.

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as you know, men and also women. So and our roles do not exist in a back home so obviously. we are raised in a particular neighborhood, in a society in a state, in a country. And this and the social policy laws and social norms affect us.

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So basically, like a sure illustrative example could be United States. The United States is a quite emotionist

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country, but in some sense it's not the same like to being raised in a traditional estate than in a progressive or more like Italian. So obviously our neighborhood society, a state and country, has an influence in the way that we construct and practice our fathering identity.

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So we are shape.

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fortunately, unfortunately, by arrest structures. But at the same time we have this capacity. We have this agency to challenge, resist, and change these structures.

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in order to introduce the same concept, we need to present abitus. So if you are familiar with this concept of Fourier, which is never easy. basically, it's the mechanism that connects structure with agency. So, according to word, here.

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we internalize our structure.

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the capital's economic, capital, social capital, simplegoing capital. We incorporate, incorporate the the structure in our bodies, in fact, and we externalize it in form of dispositions.

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that we can call it in our paper masculine, this position? that basically is the way we thought, the way we feel, the way we judge with that we did. We dress the way we talk. So basically abitus connect these structures of the first order objectivity with subjectivity. That is this way thinking,

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etc.

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So in this practice theory what you basically said, that we

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generate this positions, which is basically a mental arc and all our actions, all our judgments, all our fillings, all our whatever you want, our dispositions will be explained by this mental arc.

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So if this is true, obviously it will affect the way we practice our own masculine. But again, this is quite deterministic. So.

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and it could happen, an interesting think that it institutional and personal conversion factors may emerge that basically are some invitations like to change a which is not easy. But and here we will distinguish between 3 types of conversion factors. That it could be

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like being a father is a personal conversion factor. It can be super transformative, as we can see in previously and in the previous session as well. So, and it can

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change my priorities and even my identity. But also we can have institutional conversion factors that it could be like the dirty quota of the paternity lives so enjoying or experiencing a paternity lift can change my perspective, and maybe I change the way I practice my masculinity, or it could be, it's not here, but historical

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conversion factors I don't know being race in a country that is becoming a mortgage Italian, for example, Spain. So you can be part of this process now. So maybe you change as well. So this institutional and personal conversion factors may help you to reflect about your own masculinity that it's perfect.

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it could help to reflect about your own masculinity. And here we need to introduce the concept of reflexivity. So. as probably you know, Margaret, the architecture who unfortunately passed away last month. So he had these lovely publications about reflexivity and and

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an agency. So and here we want to introduce this

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concept of reflectivity. That basically is the capacity to reflect about your own identity. And if it could be possible to alter your dispositions or not.

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 so.

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But what is interesting is that reflectivity at the end is not enough. So, after reflecting, you need to take a decision.

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and maybe I reflect about my own masculinity and the way I'm a father. But then I need to take a decision. And this decision, it happens in a particular time.

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and a space, and we'll see it in the model now. And finally, before presenting the visual model. And I will finish in 3 min. we need to present another concept, which is again from Purdue which is the feel and the position of the field, and, as you know, I feel, is a structured system of social positions, and in each position has some power. So there is these relations of

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power.

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even even sociology. The academic sociology is is a field now and then, and if we have different positions, there are these relations of power, and the same in in the corporate wall, and the same at home. So for 4 years imports. It's important to understand the feel and the positions of the feel. So

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being said, all of this.

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it's not. It's improv. It's super super tiny. But here is like the model. So in the paper we develop that different sets

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of propositions. But in order like to make it easier and not super boring which is presented is one model. So let's start basically, we start with the socialization process, as you know. So, as I said before. As we said before, we are raised in a particular context, our home, our social, our society, our state, whatever you want, and this generate some masculine dispositions.

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and consciously, unconsciously, and in order to make it easier. this, this position can be classified, this masculine disposition between traditional masculinity or non-traditional masculinity, it could be carrying masculinity whatever you want now in time one. So you, we can classify this. Your dispositions. Explain it by your context.

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However, as I said before we can experience some convergent factors. If you don't experience these convergent factors like fall equity doesn't impact you or you don't experience institution or or historical conversion factors.

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Okay, so then you will continue as you are, and there is no reflexivity, so masculinity in time. 2. It will be exactly the same one as time one. But

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and that's why we produce or generate this model. You can experience these conversion factors that it could be.

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I'm as a father I rediscover. I don't know what or the institutional conversion factors that it's that's why social policy is important that enjoying the paternity leaf I enjoyed so much, and I decided like to change my perspective, or whatever or historical conversion factors, that it's being in a supergalitarian country, it can change the way I practice my masculinity. So if you experience these conversion factors.

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then you can enter in a reflexivity period, and that's super important.

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And then this reflectivity period, you evaluates in some sense the gains and losses

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in different domains. And here is important to highlight that probably it's not the same, and it's much easier to valuate the gains and losses

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at work that at home. and you need to take a decision. So once you enter it in a reflectivity period, you need to decide if you will.

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and mask or opening, or openly

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shared this new masculinity. But for us, and because, although this is super theoretical paper, but with that. Actually, we have experiencing, like interviewing man in in the corporate world. So for us is quite important, like the organizational setting. So where you work, basically

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and again, 2 min in one.

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So again, you can work in a traditional organism. We make it simple. But you can work in a traditional setting. Imagine a law firm. You need to work from 9 to 9, Super male nominated. nothing to. Then.

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if your position in the fill is low, so you don't have a a lot of capital symbolic capital. Probably you will remain complicit. So you will pass as a traditional father in order to avoid consequences, and you make the first group bigger, although you are not from the first book because you had this reflectivity period. But you have forced to act as the first one. So you are making the first group bigger.

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The only exception that we say, if you are in a traditional

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company is in men with high position in the field, and probably they are the only one who decided to unmask this new carrying masculinity.

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And again, if you are working in a non-traditional company, that it could be family, friendly, super democratic, open. Even if you are in low or high positions, we assume, and we develop theoretically in the model that you will unmatch this new identity, this new carrying masculinity. and this model. And I finish

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it's not here, but it's iterative. So then you can return to conversion factors. It will be around.

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So I think I should finish here, and then, happy like to receive your feedback and keep discussing this with you. So thank you.

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Thank you, Mark and Ashley, for the presentation. And now we are going to the last one.

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The presentation title, Who are the Who Are Fathers? Getting for emotionally results from an Australian survey of interpersonal emotion management by Roger. But but Tuliy from the University of wallow gong. Australia.

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Sorry for my

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oh, yes.

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Mr. Roger, all right. Thank you.

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I've actually left Will and long UN. So you know, though I'm I'm in a transition phase right now between you. So I'm now at a Hong Kong back to university. So That's just in case anyone was wondering. so good morning. I'm come down from got to go land up in Sydney today, and just acknowledging we're on the unseeded lands of the rendry people here. I'd like to pay my respects to any present aboriginal persons and elders.

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and this is what I'd like to talk about today.

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the problem. of interpersonal motion work. the focus on my presentation will be on gender fathers and emotion work. And I like to focus in particular on this interpersonal dimension of emotion work, and that is the work that people do to help each other manage their emotions in the context, in unpaid contexts.

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I'll open up with the the problem. I'll review a bit of literature. I'll discuss the data that I'll be drawing on, which is from the Australian social attitudes. Survey.

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And then I'll do some findings. And And the summary.

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So emotion work is a well-recognized form of work developed and popularized by Ali Hoxschild. It's can be described as the work that people do to manage their own and others emotions in non-paid contexts, and it brings the emotions in Lyme with social expectations that that exist around households, family and friends.

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Emotion work is part of a broader concept of emotion management

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alongside things like emotional labor, and it's been linked to a number of health and stressful conditions. So it is a form of work. In that sense.

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and emotion work is highly highly gendered. by gender! I'm referring here to those who identify as cis-gendered males and females.

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I've excluded non-binary persons from the analysis, and I have not separated out respondents based on non heterosexual sexuality. The reason is the same in both these cases that the sample that I'm using in the survey has the sample. Size is too small to do any different kind of and of analysis with these other groups.

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But that is a definite problem. And that's something that people should be doing more research on in the future, if possible.

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There are numerous studies that find that women are expected to and do do a disproportionate amount of emotion, management, and and motion working. There's just a number of them listed there.

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however, a form of emotion. Work that is understudy is what we call interpersonal emotion. Work

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well the work we do to help our family and friends manage their emotions. so not the work we do on ourselves, but the work we do to help someone else fit in the situation.

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The phenomenon is deserved by Hawks, child when she just notes that emotion. Work can be done by the self, upon the self, or by the self upon others.

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But the interpersonal dynamics are otherwise not really elaborated on Byhok's child Psychologists have done a bit of work in this area that they're more interested in interpersonal, emotional regulation than than emotion work.

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They have identified a number of aspects which are kind of relevant, including  deliberate regulation. In other words, it's a deliberate act that we do not just an accident.

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It's about enhancing affects taking perspective, soothing and engaging in social modeling. it's interpersonal, and it involves contextual appraisal.

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It's a phenomenon which is particularly cute in family contexts. Between intimate partners.

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However, it's sociologists who have expanded on the dynamics of how social targets and social modeling and situational factors unfold in situ

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when exploring the social and cultural spaces in which this interpersonal emotion work happens.

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 the concepts of interpersonal motion management and interpersonal emotion work have only been applied in a limited way within sociology and family household relationships. However, in the context of gender differences and inequalities. And so I think it needs more attention.

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So perhaps I've I've kind of got 3 rough sort of questions to to look at in addressing this this this issue. The first is. Who's performing emotion work? Are women still performing more of it in today's families and households?

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So only a few studies have looked at it directly.

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western Zimmerman, take a gender constructionist point of view in noting how gender emotion work. Differences persist because they signal an appropriate construction of gender. In other words, the doing of the emotion work signals that you are the gender you're meant to be.

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Duncan and Marston are a quite notable study, where they look at heterosexual male female partners, and note that heterosexual women are much more likely to perform a motion work for partners than vice versa.

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And Lynn Jamison. Similarly looks at couples And notes that whilst often they claim equal relationships, there's still many accounts of of unequal emotional sacrifices that exist in those relationships.

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However, it's the story is a bit complexified by the very limited data around. There's a study by Erickson, a survey of emotion work in the Us.

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And Erickson. She found that rather than biological sex, she found that feminine and masculine gender constructions were more likely to predict emotion work than whether you were biologically male or female.

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In addition to that, we have the movement of of women into the workforce and senior management positions, and we potentially have more stay at home fathers. And this might be changed in the picture of how emotion work is unfolding as well.

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My next question is to look at is, who is the emotion were performed for so, rather than asking, you know who's doing it, we ask who's receiving it? A few studies have looked at emotion work in the domestic setting. A recent book by Alva Gopi, which is a theoretical book.

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makes a strong argument that women play supportive, continue to play supportive care roles that benefit men and also benefit capitalism. She is coming from a a feminist Marxist perspective.

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Duncan and and Duncan and Marsden. Note that men are socialized. From early early times into being poor carers which leads to later lack of care

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on their part. Marcy Cottingham makes some interesting arguments about what she calls emotional capital, which might be of interest to the prior, the presentation, because

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what she argues there is that the caring skills, the emotional caring skills that we have.

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There's nothing innate or essential or essentially feminine about them, but rather they are skills that we learn, and they take on as such. The properties of a form of capital, and that capital can be utilized by the person who owns the capital, but the capital can also be utilised by other people outside who who put you in a position to use your capital

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and That is a situation in which you manifest, where you have. women performing care roles on, and Particularly looking after children which men benefit from, because it's the men's child getting looked after.

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So so yeah. So I was really interested in your presentation about about with capital focus. Because I'm I'm a little bit that way as well. So that's interesting.

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and in in this context, I'll actually have developed some theory my own on the idea of emotional structuration. So I might draw your attention to that later on. If you're interested. around how people position themselves within constellations of emotional capital to receive maximum benefit

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from this theoretical piece of work I developed the idea of emotional elites, those who gain the benefit from others. Emotion work which potentially in in in traditional households can be males and fathers emotional, precarious. Those who are obliged to perform motion work in the paper that I did. It was about the the service economies. It was more on in the, in the, in the realm of emotional labor.

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But again, it could be for females and mothers and emotional intermediaries those who mediate between groups and manage emotions on behalf of 2 different persons. So, for example, mothers managing both the the motions of their children and their partners.

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So I I encourage you to go and have a look at that. If you're interested in that kind of thing. however.

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I do want to point out a different scenario to this. This fairly critical standard critical scenario in laying out, and that is of males and fathers not just not being emotional elites, but potentially being emotionally disconnected.

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so Jamison notes. For example, that fathers become background figures in a lot of households disconnected. From the the care roles! But this can in turn lead to a disconnection from partners, from children, and also from other males.

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And there's several potential. for this! This can include Men being more oriented towards the the nuclear family, particularly in Australia, a particular reverence for the nuclear family form and support in the nuclear family form. And all of its inequalities

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to the exclusion of other potential forms of relating to other people. So alibi goes on about this quite a bit in her book. If you want to go and have a read of what she says, she's she's into abolishing the nuclear family together. I'm not going right down that path, but I'm just saying that there's a certain focus on the nuclear family that a lot of Australian men are very into.

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There's a masculine gender norms which, as you've already heard quite a lot about today, so I won't go into that a work-centered instrumental relations. So men, finding their connections with others through work, but those deteriorations tend to be more instrumental and less emotionally supportive, and it's unfortunately covered up. But the the words under there are that men might take a more authoritative rather than a caring form of emotion work.

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and there has been a theoretical distinction between those 2. But I won't go into that now.

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finally.

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if if we're talking about who the emotion work is performed for does that mean that the females are the ones doing it, making them emotional, precarious or not, and the flip side of men, if they are receiving all this emotional work, is that the women would then take on the role of being emotional, precarious. However.

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there are a couple of reasons why that might not be the case. for starters women moving more into the workplace, increasingly becoming, you know, waged workers and and and increasingly more in moving into more senior management positions, and in a number of cases taking on primary breadwinner positions inside households. So does that have an impact on the emotional work that I can do or or need to do.

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In addition. there might be aspects of female solidarity and support networks. In other words, there's been a lot of you know, sort of strong drive towards female and feminist social movements, and that may translate to solidarity and more mutual support for women amongst women, for women.

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And then there's a possibility of improved masculine care norms. So males, taking on more emotional care work and potentially acquiring more of this care based emotional capital. But but doing it as Cottingham notes as a secondary act rather than a as a primary primary act.

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So these are all sort of possibilities. Okay? So the research questions that I've ended up with are here.

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And you can see we've got. Females and mothers are more likely to perform, or are they more likely, before in motion work, or have males and fathers now close the gap.

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males and fathers! Emotional elites, or or are they disconnected? And males, mother females and mothers, emotional precariat? Or are they actually now in and gaining a film of solidarity. And I've got 4 min to go and fantastic. Okay, I'm using a national survey. I'll go skip on.

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This is the question I asked. It's about emotion work. I'm asking people. It's a prompt saying, describing what emotion work is.

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and then asking people to identify who the most common person they need to do this work for is, and by having these various categories I can look at not only the likelihood of of doing emotion work. But the kind of person they're doing the emotion work on behalf of. So 4 okay

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findings here we go. So

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In the first instance I'll start by looking at the degree to which people give emotional support to others.

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and what we find, which is kind of unsurprising is, women are more likely to provide emotional sport for others.

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And that, you know, that's just in keeping with all the prior literature. So it's really not a particularly surprising finding. in running this through a regression model, just to look at the impact of parenting.

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What I find is that parents well for starters.

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You can see at the top row there that being male makes you significantly less likely to perform a motion work. So that's just in keeping with the script of stats I showed But being a a parent, so that's the second row lives with a child under 18 years old

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makes. think, yeah. Being a parent with a young dependent child, they're more likely to perform emotion work in general. and when the analysis is run separately by gender. It's it's it's mothers who are doing this. So we have a very

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typical story that you would expect so far about doing emotion work. Interestingly, parents who have children that don't live with are still doing emotion work in Australia. This may be a grandparenting effect.

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And down the bottom you can. This is kind of interesting. There's a there's a line for breadwinner. I I reran the aggressions and put in a variable, for whether you're the primary income earner or the breadwinner in the household.

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and women who are are less likely to do emotion work which implies that

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gaining some sort of financial independence allows you to get out of doing emotional work, or at least get someone else to do it for you. But it's unclear if that's the the male partner or hired labor, who can help out? That's interesting.

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How many more minutes

428
01:18:26.600 --> 01:18:27.300
there

429
01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:28.610
now?

430
01:18:28.890 --> 01:18:39.599
a lot, one or 2. Okay, all right. okay. The next one is who provides emotional support, for whom? So the emotional support provided for others.

431
01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:44.909
Now, what we see here is that men and women

432
01:18:45.110 --> 01:19:04.209
each provide emotional support are likely to provide emotional support for each other. So The The women here On the very far left the more likely to give it to the male partner, and the men are more likely to get even more likely to give it to the female partner. They're actually more likely than they've than their female partners to give emotional work support to their partners.

433
01:19:04.860 --> 01:19:10.080
Okay. But women are much more likely to provide emotional sport for the children.

434
01:19:11.210 --> 01:19:23.580
and they are also much, much more likely to provide emotional support for other women. So this is a particularly interesting sort of little emerging story. Here

435
01:19:24.280 --> 01:19:25.649
is what it means

436
01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:31.820
is that the net result is that much more emotional sport goes to women than goes to men.

437
01:19:31.870 --> 01:19:39.110
So, in other words, whilst men are doing more emotional work, they're also receiving more emotional work than the then the men are

438
01:19:40.490 --> 01:19:44.679
when we look at this on the basis of our regressions.

439
01:19:45.020 --> 01:20:03.439
this is a a serious logistic regression about performing emotional work for males, and we can see here that the men are less likely to perform emotional work for males. most particularly, you know. What if you have a male partner? But that's, I think, a facet of a very small sample size of men with met him in partners.

440
01:20:03.490 --> 01:20:07.059
but they're less likely to perform a motion for, for for males

441
01:20:07.200 --> 01:20:16.099
and breadwinners in general are less likely to also perform emotion work for males, which again comes back to the women gaining a certain amount of independence

442
01:20:17.200 --> 01:20:21.600
in terms of looking at who does a motion work for females.

443
01:20:22.560 --> 01:20:29.149
You can see here that men are less likely to do emotion work for females who are not their partner.

444
01:20:29.170 --> 01:20:31.650
So anyone who's not their partner, they're not. They're not really doing it.

445
01:20:31.710 --> 01:20:51.570
And parents are less likely to do a motion work for females in general, and I think this is a reflection of mothers being so busy doing emotion work for their children that I don't have the time necessarily to do emotion work for others compared to other females and mothers who don't have have kids.

446
01:20:52.280 --> 01:21:02.719
and then, finally, The breadwinner result again, is far, far left less likely to do. The motion work for female non partners, if you're if you're a breadwinner as well.

447
01:21:03.620 --> 01:21:11.619
So, in conclusion. females and mothers are more likely. Actually, I'll hang on to Redone, my little blurb, but still have a minute.

448
01:21:11.850 --> 01:21:18.780
Okay, good. Good. I sort of raised a bit. Females and mothers are more likely to perform emotion work.

449
01:21:18.860 --> 01:21:25.320
and this supports the idea of females as emotional, precarious, or emotional intermediaries. Within that household.

450
01:21:25.660 --> 01:21:35.430
however, females with more financial independence. For example, primary breadwinners can perform less emotion where they seem to be able to get get out of doing it if they want to.

451
01:21:35.930 --> 01:21:41.079
but males are less likely to give and receive emotion work, particularly from other males.

452
01:21:41.140 --> 01:21:52.390
Males and fathers are only likely to receive it from female partners, unless those partners are breadwinners. This suggests males, and fathers are more likely experiencing inter-male disconnection.

453
01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:54.770
then emotional elitism.

454
01:21:55.650 --> 01:22:01.399
Finally, females are more likely to give and receive emotional work, particularly from other women.

455
01:22:01.990 --> 01:22:07.200
Females and mothers not only receive emotion, work for male partners, but they also receive it from other women.

456
01:22:07.560 --> 01:22:19.349
Busy mothers who are providing emotion work for their children, and emotionally independent female breadwinners are less likely to provide it for others, and this suggests that overall. They suggest that females and mothers, particularly affluent ones.

457
01:22:19.380 --> 01:22:29.699
more emotionally supportive and independent than they are precarious, at least in terms of the fact that they are receiving a lot of emotion work that you know, even if they're giving it out.

458
01:22:31.360 --> 01:22:34.650
So finally, last slide, my recommendations are.

459
01:22:34.710 --> 01:22:47.959
I think, that we should engage in more investigation into the nature of women's emotional support. Networks, for example, are they built for our motherhood singleness or feminist solidarity?

460
01:22:49.010 --> 01:22:54.939
I think we should be involved in promoting greater recognition of emotion work as a form of unpaid household labor

461
01:22:55.100 --> 01:23:00.120
in many instances, and the inequities, particularly in terms of mothers doing more than fathers for children.

462
01:23:00.340 --> 01:23:14.439
This could involve educational campaigns to encourage men to care more, and I I do believe it should be part of the discussion around the gender wage gap. Because I think that there should. You know, we need to. This can add to the discussion about the need for men to work less and care more.

463
01:23:14.990 --> 01:23:19.889
I think we can critically, critically re-examine the centrality of the nuclear family.

464
01:23:20.010 --> 01:23:41.960
in other words, encourage men to expand and develop support networks beyond female partners and not just develop more instrumental friends, but get close friends elsewhere. I think future research can focus on couples directly in households which I wasn't able to do. Here. You can look at non binary non heterosexual persons and their emotion work. And finally, potentially, you can also look at how much

465
01:23:41.970 --> 01:23:48.170
affluent males and females are able to outsource their emotion, work to other other sources as well. Okay, I'll leave it there.

466
01:23:55.370 --> 01:23:56.530
Thank you.

467
01:23:57.370 --> 01:24:16.400
So thank you all for for all this interesting presentation. Now, the good news that we have some time for discussion on to to talk more about the the presentation that have been presented here. So maybe if you can take a city on the table

468
01:24:16.490 --> 01:24:25.760
in front, and if we have some question as to assume before, I would appreciate if you go to the microphone to

469
01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:28.539
to be heard by the by, the people online.

470
01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:33.680
So any questions

471
01:24:34.450 --> 01:24:35.160
this?

472
01:24:38.700 --> 01:24:39.870
Yes.

473
01:24:47.770 --> 01:25:06.160
thank you for your presentation all. I'm Monica to me from Japan, and so I'm Mr. Blaine about Japanese Japanese fathers and masculine taste. So I have a question for the

474
01:25:06.340 --> 01:25:09.040
theoretical framework of fathers.

475
01:25:09.480 --> 01:25:18.579
So my question is, how do you select

476
01:25:18.920 --> 01:25:30.300
the traditional or not toward this normal mass guarantee in your framework because I think the gender identities.

477
01:25:30.310 --> 01:25:46.130
 complex nowadays. So one father has traditional and both traditional and non-traditional identities in one person. So how

478
01:25:46.160 --> 01:25:49.640
please tell me, how do you and select

479
01:25:49.690 --> 01:25:52.969
traditional, not not traditional.

480
01:25:59.510 --> 01:26:04.680
Thank you for your lovely question. And I I can try to. So

481
01:26:06.550 --> 01:26:20.580
yeah, so, although it's a theoretical piece. So Ashley and myself, I think that we come back more than 100 interviews in Australia as the States. So it's been in different places now, and at the end, what we try to do here is like

482
01:26:20.590 --> 01:26:23.260
generate. As

483
01:26:23.300 --> 01:26:26.779
donias and other sociologists said ideal types. So

484
01:26:27.010 --> 01:26:36.720
no one is completely pure. But we can try to identify some types of fathers, but just to understand the reality, although knowing that no one is pure

485
01:26:36.850 --> 01:26:46.579
and and there are other papers that they distinguish between 3 types, basically, always these 3 types of fathers like traditional one. But they have different names

486
01:26:46.710 --> 01:27:04.579
like Gil Kaufman was here before. But, for example, he has traditional. That's new, that super debt. And there are a lot of models in Japan. Also, there are these e-commerce, not that are super involved with care of masculinity. So in some sense, we can try to measure

487
01:27:04.830 --> 01:27:07.720
how they practice their own.

488
01:27:08.100 --> 01:27:14.920
how they behave as fathers. If they are, basically it's level. I think that we can

489
01:27:16.360 --> 01:27:31.100
let me think. But basically it's culture and conduct. So like this non-traditional fathers, they have a new culture. They want to behave differently, and they have a new conduct. They conduct, or whatever it is, a new here.

490
01:27:31.170 --> 01:27:38.820
and they really behave different because they are more involved and and traditional one, although no one is pure. but they have.

491
01:27:39.010 --> 01:27:46.710
and I don't want to say the word old culture. But but yeah, a non-nimboot

492
01:27:46.900 --> 01:27:52.060
culture and the same behavior or not. So we try to distinguish in some sense. But again, so

493
01:27:52.280 --> 01:28:04.150
it should be useful as yeah, as as as as to understand the reality and and to classify people, although, as we said, no one is pure. But thank you, we love it. So

494
01:28:05.660 --> 01:28:10.529
thank you. We have a question online, Hannah, are you ready?

495
01:28:11.740 --> 01:28:22.969
Henna Pirskanen: Yes, thank you. and many thanks to our presenters. I have a comment in question to you. Stay in one. That big and colleagues.

496
01:28:23.320 --> 01:28:38.549
Henna Pirskanen: I really like your like your take on how you examine both vulnerabilities and resilience of of young fathers, and you mentioned

497
01:28:38.700 --> 01:28:53.219
Henna Pirskanen: the implications of your study. So it would be interesting to hear about the implications, and how what what kinds of thoughts you have on how these and fathers could be. So

498
01:28:56.390 --> 01:28:57.160
no.

499
01:28:59.940 --> 01:29:04.910
And at the last the last part of the sentence, can you repeat it? Because it get frozen?

500
01:29:05.660 --> 01:29:18.280
Henna Pirskanen: okay, yes. So I was asking what kinds of thoughts do you have on? how young fathers could be supported, for example, in the services

501
01:29:18.340 --> 01:29:20.800
Henna Pirskanen: to to enhance the resilience.

502
01:29:22.150 --> 01:29:23.830
Thank you. Thank you, Hannah.

503
01:29:26.110 --> 01:29:26.870
the

504
01:29:28.720 --> 01:29:32.439
thank you. And yeah. Oh, I can. Yeah.

505
01:29:32.860 --> 01:29:34.280
See the

506
01:29:38.190 --> 01:29:41.470
thank you, Hannah, for that question.

507
01:29:41.510 --> 01:30:06.449
Yeah. So because we are my own background is in sociology, but the study is conducted at the health sciences faculty of the Erasmus University, so we are indeed very much focused on the professional services in healthcare. So yeah, the implications that I have are are mainly focused on that. So several things which which really came from these conversations that we had with young fathers.

508
01:30:06.550 --> 01:30:08.130
So

509
01:30:08.660 --> 01:30:25.400
And what we really noticed is that so often when you look at the literature, but also the support. In practice. It's very much focused on the vulnerability of these young fathers, and we really find that that is not a good way to approach them. So sometimes professionals will really focus on 150.

510
01:30:25.750 --> 01:30:36.549
this this vulnerability, like really sort of maybe speaking to these young fathers like they are very weak, or like they really need support, which is something that then

511
01:30:36.920 --> 01:30:52.460
causes them to close up again. So they feel like, Oh, I'm already seen as incapable. so I don't want to engage in this support. So it's very important for professionals to. Of course, first of all involve fathers, because usually.

512
01:30:52.520 --> 01:31:15.289
when there is an appointment with mother and father, usually the attention goes to the mother, and the father is, is hardly ever asked, Hey, how are you doing, or is there anything that you need? But then, in that contact to to Be very trusting and give confidence to the father. So really give the father the idea like, Hey, I trust in in your, in your fatherhood, instead of

513
01:31:15.380 --> 01:31:19.850
emphasizing the vulnerability of the situation.

514
01:31:19.880 --> 01:31:45.550
There's a lot of anticipated stigma among young fathers, so they very much already feel like they're being viewed as incapable. So professionals should really try to stay away from that perspective, also using humor being a bit playful in the contact. really helps And so to start off with quite a practical approach, instead of immediately going to emotions. So

515
01:31:45.550 --> 01:31:57.850
we see this masculine value of not yeah, directly. Talking about emotions so immediately asking a young father like, Hey, are you feeling? That is probably not going to work? Very well.

516
01:31:57.910 --> 01:32:24.329
and And lastly, I want to. reflect on. So the the one of the big vulnerability themes this relationship with the mother. So a professional should really also attempt to build a separate relationship with the father individually, with the father. So without the mother so trying to build some kind of contact, there's very much an institutional barrier to this, because

517
01:32:24.610 --> 01:32:45.610
Relationships in health care are usually just with the mother. Also, the legal relationship is just with the mother But if possible, professionals should try to start contact with the father and have that individual contact so they can kind of bypass the difficult relationship with the mother. I think those would be the most important. I hope that answers your question.

518
01:32:45.900 --> 01:32:49.019
and also feel free to reach out if you want to discuss more.

519
01:32:50.020 --> 01:32:54.100
Henna Pirskanen: Thanks so much. Yeah. Very important results.

520
01:32:54.400 --> 01:32:55.280
Thanks.

521
01:32:57.550 --> 01:32:58.870
Have a question. Yes.

522
01:33:07.130 --> 01:33:09.529
thank you. I have a question

523
01:33:09.640 --> 01:33:16.289
for the last presenter. this emotional work. It it was very interesting to me.

524
01:33:16.510 --> 01:33:24.939
and and I want to ask that if I understood correctly that that for our males and fathers

525
01:33:25.670 --> 01:33:42.629
they are, they seem to be disconnected, because because they get and give emotional work only inside the family. And they are not so

526
01:33:42.730 --> 01:33:45.710
much connections outside the family.

527
01:33:45.910 --> 01:33:51.189
So they are somehow stuck in the family. And that's how they are disconnected.

528
01:33:51.550 --> 01:33:53.650
And

529
01:33:55.770 --> 01:34:00.240
and what are there any thoughts? How?

530
01:34:00.710 --> 01:34:05.160
How it should be changed, or or, yeah.

531
01:34:05.180 --> 01:34:06.709
Oh, yeah.

532
01:34:11.310 --> 01:34:27.890
yeah, yeah. Hi, thank you. That was a really good question. So the the other other piece of the the 2 areas of work that I mostly do is is emotions and sort of social connection. So I'm very interested in in male social connectivity.

533
01:34:27.960 --> 01:34:34.829
 and yeah, I, the the, the, the space that I'm coming to

534
01:34:34.860 --> 01:35:04.360
it most particularly in the Australian context. I'm not sure how relevant it is outside of the Australian context, but but in the Australian context in particular, is that a lot of men are very, very focused on the nuclear family. So that's where you put your time and your energy into making sure you have the, the, the emotional connections that that you need. I'm finding that that plays out in this data whereby the men do most of their emotion work for their female partner, not for the kids.

535
01:35:04.360 --> 01:35:28.819
the first for the female partner, and and certainly not for other men or other women. Yeah. And to me this really speaks to a certain level of masculine disconnection from from from other men. it's backed up by some other data as well from other studies. that that I've been involved in. So one interesting statistic I found from prior data that I looked at, and other social agent surveys was

536
01:35:28.900 --> 01:35:34.899
Men were more likely Australian men were more likely to name their female partner as their best friend.

537
01:35:35.050 --> 01:35:43.230
whereas Australian women were not more likely to name their male partner as their best friend, which is an interesting little disparity.

538
01:35:43.240 --> 01:36:11.149
And but it seems to. It seems to work. In in other work I've done. I've I've sort of theorized that in Australia men are very focused on like, I said, the family, but also work. So the the 2 sources of their connectivity and big sources are the people they work with, and and and the people that they live with, whereas Australian women have typically more diverse social networks across a range of different fields, and that, I think, develop better, more diverse connections.

539
01:36:12.090 --> 01:36:20.080
I'll do it now. I would like to to have a clarification. The good. Yeah.

540
01:36:20.250 --> 01:36:34.040
they may. They put a lot of emotional support to the partner, but not anyone else. And you say also their colleagues out of the family. They they put emotional support to the, to the the workplace with their colleagues.

541
01:36:34.700 --> 01:36:55.709
And are you considering as well the emotional support to their mothers, to their father? So one limitation of the data is that I had to. because the way this and socialize should. So it works is you can put questions in there. But you typically want them to answer only one thing, because because otherwise it's really expensive to have lots of questions in there.

542
01:36:55.710 --> 01:37:25.129
So I desire this question with I. I asked them, who's the most likely person you are to provide your emotional work for. So all the data is based on the person most likely to give it to. So it's quite possible that they're giving it to, not just one person, but to want to some others as well. However, the data suggesting that for for for men the the the most likely person they're giving it to as their female partner, so they could be giving it elsewhere. I did a another presentation on Monday about emotional labor in the workforce.

543
01:37:25.210 --> 01:37:30.619
and in that one men were male workers were more likely to give their emotional.

544
01:37:30.750 --> 01:37:42.579
their emotional support to colleagues. Yeah. So they? So they do have that collegial connection. where? Yeah. So so that there is evidence to support that as well. Yeah. Cool.

545
01:37:44.730 --> 01:37:45.920
Hello.

546
01:37:50.610 --> 01:37:55.479
Thank you. I have a question for Ashley. Emma. Right?

547
01:37:55.550 --> 01:38:06.219
so on this scheme of your conceptualization. let me know if I didn't understand it correctly. There was a lot of information.

548
01:38:06.390 --> 01:38:18.830
it was sort of stated that the position in between the complicity requires reflexivity, while the size of traditional and non-tritional muscularity.

549
01:38:19.110 --> 01:38:26.940
I'm not. There was like, No, yes, no. I on the. So I yeah, I'm interested. Why so? And

550
01:38:27.030 --> 01:38:32.080
let me know if I just didn't understand correctly. But I also interested in

551
01:38:32.340 --> 01:38:34.080
whether

552
01:38:34.840 --> 01:38:41.520
in your conceptualization of reflex so reflexive past community were interested in engaging with

553
01:38:41.610 --> 01:38:56.750
reflexivity as a concept that was developed by Giddens, and we would look back in the, you know, reflection. Of late. Madame T. Has reflexive identity, or you didn't find it suitable for yeah, I'm just interested. Thank you.

554
01:38:59.400 --> 01:39:19.309
Well, thank you very much for that question. so we, the way that we have conceptualized it, we've essentially as my excited. It's a bit of a simplified kind of version, but we envisioned that men who are already quite practicing quite on traditional masculinity

555
01:39:19.470 --> 01:39:26.260
may not need that invitation to reflexivity, because they're already kind of practicing that masculinity.

556
01:39:26.690 --> 01:39:33.249
and perhaps men who are already practicing quite a traditional masculinity may not even, you know.

557
01:39:33.370 --> 01:39:42.840
notice, or may not take on those invitations. in the personal and and institutional conversion factors. So that's why there's there's no kind of

558
01:39:43.010 --> 01:40:05.540
yes, on all on those sides. but again they, this is something we're still lining out. So we're, you know, taking that feedback away and and looking at it. But some, and then in terms of the reflexivity. we're applying more. Margaret arches idea of reflectivity and habits. rather than Get in. And yeah.

559
01:40:05.920 --> 01:40:07.269
thank you so much

560
01:40:15.330 --> 01:40:26.330
a question for the theoretical piece as well. So the policy question I'm interested in is actually, how do we get fathers to be more participative in the family. I think this model of reflex of these very interesting.

561
01:40:26.330 --> 01:40:38.229
I was wondering if empirically, in your interview, if you've encountered the particular movements or pathways that get fathers to change their perceptions of masculinity, and get fathers to become more inviting

562
01:40:38.230 --> 01:41:00.249
of, or more accepting or participating more in the family, because we know that for the same moment, for example, having a child, different fathers can to predict differently, and not everyone necessarily reflects in a way that makes them more persuasive in the family, so are there any particular pathways, and how many is informed policy, and how might we help fathers. they have a role in the family. Yeah.

563
01:41:03.610 --> 01:41:04.370
yeah.

564
01:41:04.520 --> 01:41:05.860
good question.

565
01:41:05.910 --> 01:41:13.200
So regarding policies, yeah. So we realized in our interviews that many fathers.

566
01:41:13.330 --> 01:41:27.770
because they experience, or they enjoy this paternity, live like, for example, in a Spain, that we have almost 4 months. So they discover, rediscovered a new role, and it changed in some sense, their perspective.

567
01:41:27.910 --> 01:41:44.239
but, as you said, it could be also sometimes even negative. So in the model, it seems that always it's positive in some sense that you rediscover a new role, and then you but it could be also in the other way around. So also it is this postpartum depression. So it could be like the negative side.

568
01:41:44.450 --> 01:41:48.569
and also like, yeah.

569
01:41:48.900 --> 01:42:11.490
personal conversion factors as well like experience, like experiencing a super bad situation like I don't know. Sometimes even losing a child or a miscarriage. It it change your perspective because it was a super traumatic moment, and you can decide to go to one side or one side on another side. So, yeah, in the interviews, in some sense. yeah,

570
01:42:12.680 --> 01:42:18.329
yeah. We realized that it makes sense.

571
01:42:18.640 --> 01:42:20.849
I say, you don't know if you want like.

572
01:42:22.210 --> 01:42:23.010
But

573
01:42:23.890 --> 01:42:26.079
thank you for that question.

574
01:42:26.140 --> 01:42:31.500
yeah, something that I I'll just speak to the the interviews that I have done.

575
01:42:31.640 --> 01:42:34.290
but I I had a couple of participants

576
01:42:34.440 --> 01:42:37.400
who were older

577
01:42:37.490 --> 01:42:46.109
in their kind of late fortys, early fiftys, and had teenage kids and then had had younger kids with their new partners.

578
01:42:46.340 --> 01:42:55.359
and that for them was a real turning point, because they recognized that they wanted to do things differently than they had done with their previous children, but I think as well.

579
01:42:55.560 --> 01:43:13.559
being a bit older, they also had more capital, more power within their organizations. Their careers were more solidified than they were when they had had their first children, and so they had a bit more power to say, no, you know, I'm gonna go home and spend time with my kids rather than staying like that kind of thing.

580
01:43:13.680 --> 01:43:16.340
so I think those

581
01:43:16.790 --> 01:43:27.039
those kind of personal conversion factors, but also institutional conversion factors play a big role and more policies around, you know.

582
01:43:27.240 --> 01:43:32.210
family-friendly policies within organizations would be really helpful for

583
01:43:32.650 --> 01:43:38.449
for men who are having their their first children in, you know the the twentieth thirtys who need that support

584
01:43:41.480 --> 01:43:44.920
you? We still have time for one question.

585
01:43:45.100 --> 01:43:46.170
Yes.

586
01:43:48.080 --> 01:43:48.850
yeah.

587
01:43:49.720 --> 01:44:10.799
So I have a question, too. But I really enjoy your presentation. I I was wondering, like the role of the friends like the male friends of the father that you interviewed so Did you notice in the interviews? If they experience like that their friends, male friends, even fathers, if they was supportive, or if they, I don't know.

588
01:44:11.000 --> 01:44:20.150
 yeah. So if they suffered also with their own friends because they didn't really understand. So which was the role of their male friends.

589
01:44:20.440 --> 01:44:24.279
Yeah, thank you for that question, because I did talk about

590
01:44:24.290 --> 01:44:31.250
in the title. Their experiences within the community, too. I found a mixed bag of responses in terms of.

591
01:44:31.320 --> 01:44:34.760
and the interactions of the respondents with their friends.

592
01:44:35.310 --> 01:44:42.859
So some of the respondents talked about having a Whatsapp group of just their male friends, and how the the respondents were supportive of

593
01:44:43.140 --> 01:44:51.140
how the friends were supportive of the respondents. You know, saying, You know you can help take care of your travel and all that.

594
01:44:51.590 --> 01:44:55.350
They only had other as abundance, who were very.

595
01:44:56.059 --> 01:45:01.359
who self-isolated themselves, isolated themselves when they were a household for a period.

596
01:45:01.490 --> 01:45:06.810
because they were so embarrassed to talk to their male friends. It was a sense of shame for them.

597
01:45:07.129 --> 01:45:10.339
so it wasn't necessarily their friends.

598
01:45:11.360 --> 01:45:13.329
Putting shame on the house husbands

599
01:45:13.500 --> 01:45:31.860
But it was the house husband's internalizing the shame and feeling that I don't want to interact with society. I don't want to interact with the community because my my other male friends, they are doing well in their jobs or their breadwinners, or they are contributing substantially to the household. Look at me, I just

600
01:45:32.070 --> 01:45:44.029
I'm just a stay at home, father, or stay at home has been so very different. Effect of very different effects of friendship on the on the left experiences of these respondents.

601
01:45:48.719 --> 01:45:51.290
So no more questions.

602
01:45:52.709 --> 01:45:56.020
So I

603
01:45:57.219 --> 01:45:59.240
they are so

604
01:46:15.780 --> 01:46:22.660
bye bye. bye, thank you.

605
01:46:22.980 --> 01:46:27.000
Thank you. Bye, bye.