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Lena: on English? No, no, we we switch languages as good morning, everybody.

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Lena: My name is Lena in of Locky, and I'm very happy to share this session on conceptual challenges in biographical research.

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Lena: There's also your Highness in person sharing the session. and we have 2 presentations. The first one will be by Gwendolen.

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Lena: entitled. I'm not a problem

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Lena: negotiating between concepts of analysis and the perspectives of the participants please. Wendled in.

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Lena: We were looking forward to you. Your.

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Gwendolyn: thank you very much. I just share my screen.

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Lena:  yeah.

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Gwendolyn: okay.

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Gwendolyn: so yeah. Good morning. Good evening, everybody. I'm very happy to be here and share with you my my thoughts on on the category stations during my research. So in in the following minutes I will discuss some 2 encounters with you. That that which I had during my research, and in which individuals resisted being categorized or designated by me as a researcher.

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Gwendolyn: I will explore how the analysis of these resistances broadened my understanding of my research, and in consequence the biographical narratives

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Gwendolyn: by developing into this Into these 2 encounters I aim to shed light on the core construction of our research, and demonstrate how our resistance against our established concepts and questions can offer valuable insight into our research field.

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Gwendolyn: So the more I will explore how such resistance can potentially lead us to change our research question.

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Gwendolyn: So

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Gwendolyn: my, my reflections are based on my Phd research, on geographical negotiations of individuals of mixed origin, which I published last year in 2,022

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Gwendolyn: and At the beginning of my

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Gwendolyn: my research I was interested in how my national family life is reflected in the biographies of the children of by national couples. So I expected a life story into woven with a question, of whom am I? And where do I come from?

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Gwendolyn: But as I will show in what's for following. I was forced to change this question during my research.

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Gwendolyn: so due to the nature of my research subject, I was particularly concerned about the risk to similarized and homogeneized experiences of my research partners.

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Gwendolyn: I sought out life stories of individuals of mixed origin

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Gwendolyn: which I operate operationalized by using the sampling criteria of having a by national origin. So this means that one parent was native and the other had a migration history.

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So the criteria of

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Gwendolyn: by national origin

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Gwendolyn: was based on the theoretical assumption that growing up in different national contexts might lead to a sense of mixedness within the family. So perhaps there is because several languages have different traditions, transnational networks, and so on.

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However.

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Gwendolyn: these criteria also presents a potential danger of reinforcing national, ethnic and cultural attributions, and perpetuates experiences of othering.

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Gwendolyn: I would like to briefly illustrate this with a critical moment in my research process.

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Gwendolyn: It was the situation when I received a rejection to an interview which steered strong emotions in me. The encounter involved Irvine.

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Gwendolyn: whom I can come to know through a mutual friend

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Gwendolyn: called Lea.

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Gwendolyn: who had met Aaron during her studies in modern arts.

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Gwendolyn: So oh, really. I was the fourth person I approached for an interview

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Gwendolyn: when I initially contact him over a phone. Erwin seemed interested. He wanted to know in detail about my research interest and the reasons behind conducting this study.

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Gwendolyn: So

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Gwendolyn: and eventually we reached an agreement that Urban would check his schedule and get back to me regarding a suitable time to meet the upcoming days.

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Gwendolyn: However. he never contacted me again.

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Gwendolyn: After several weeks of hearing nothing from him, I decided to ask my friend Leah if she has spoken to him.

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Gwendolyn: I would like to share an excerpt from my research diary to illustrate what's happened to next. So I will I. I

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Gwendolyn: Leah wrote me an SMS. That Irvine appeared to be extremely upset when he brought up when she brought up my interview requests again he questioned her about referring to him as a by national friend, a term he had used to sign his previous SMS. After the initial request from Leon.

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Gwendolyn: Erwin continued, by expressing that my request has been suspicious to him right from the start. And anyway, he wondered, why do I have to turn him into a problem? There is nothing

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Gwendolyn: I feel deeply unsettled by this reaction, and completely misunderstood. My intention was precisely to avoid presenting a problem problem-focused perspective.

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Gwendolyn: So the interaction with urban highlights how my research focus on financial origin inadvertently led to a particularization and categorization of individuals based on their mixed origin.

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Gwendolyn: I unintentionally treated them as others with a specific life experience.

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Gwendolyn: In other words, I did. It identified them as non-normal in the sense described by government, assuming that they process knowledge that I, as a normal like.

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Gwendolyn: so their biography. But that's marked as something extraordinary to be examined and examined and explored.

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Gwendolyn: and Irvine's response can be understood as a reaction to this process of othering.

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Gwendolyn: He resisted being reduced solely to his bilateral experience. From his perspective

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Gwendolyn: my research interests seem to be rooted in a problem-centric approach, seeking confirmation of pre-conceived notions about his life

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Gwendolyn: effect that he refused to confirm.

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Gwendolyn: So the encount with Irvine played a pirate role in helping me to understand the problematic nature of categorizations within my research

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Gwendolyn: and make me more attuned to processes of othering. Analyzing this rejection of Irvine.

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Gwendolyn: I suddenly understood what was happening also in other interviews, where the interviewees refused, having particular experiences to share with me.

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Gwendolyn: As a consequence, the analysis of this situation led me to reconsider initially and research interests of mixedness as a lifestyle, and look closer to what the interview is are doing with my categories.

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So let me just straight this with another example.

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Gwendolyn:  The example concerns a recurring interaction that took place during the interviews.

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Gwendolyn: When I ask the individual about their life experiences in relation to their mixed origin, some of them began to argue about how Swiss, or how normal their life is.

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Gwendolyn: It became apparent that they were distancing themselves from category stations of from of sorry that they were this 10 distancing themselves from my categorizations of them as by national.

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Gwendolyn: So they were, in fact, rejecting the perceived uniqueness of their life.

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Gwendolyn: So let me introduce you to the narrative of

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Gwendolyn: her narrative. Vividly is your straits. How the combination of live and of inviting individuals to share the life story and focus in on their financial origin can evoke resistance

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Gwendolyn: when it became evident later into interview that the national origin has gained importance for her in recent years, she initially resists being single out on this aspect.

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Gwendolyn: This defensiveness is already noticeable in your self introduction at the very beginning of the biographical reconstruction. So I will sit

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Gwendolyn: and she says, after I'm asking her to tell me her life story, she says, Okay, So today I'm just meeting with 22 and lives in a city in a shared flight. I was born in 1992, also in a city.

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Gwendolyn: I grew up actually, also in a city. So I'm a bit of a A/C ticket. for from the beginning until now. And In this sense I haven't been around much in the world.

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Gwendolyn: So after an initial self introduction, including name, age, place of residence. Jasmine emphasizes here the fact that she leads a very settled lifestyle.

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Gwendolyn: It becomes apparent that she is trying to highlight her local belongings.

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Gwendolyn: The in the subsequent lines she deal deals did. Oh, sorry she

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Gwendolyn: the they'll del into their parents story without directly relating.

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Gwendolyn: and it's through her own experience and ends her her very first narration after only 11 min. So the presentation of herself illustrates on a formal level that my research. Interest in the topic of financial origin is more relevant to her parents than to herself.

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Gwendolyn: So in in some kind of they are dealing with mythic mixing, but not just me.

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Gwendolyn: She demonstrates that, despite her mother's migration history, she doesn't possess any. A distant mixed experience to share.

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Gwendolyn: Instead, her upbringing has been fairly normal whatever that means.

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Gwendolyn: Throughout her narrative, Jasmine constantly rejects the idea of multiple belonging, emphasizing her perception of being unspecial and leading an ordinary life to illustrate this. Here is another short excerpt that follows the initial narration, and it's when when I ask her to tell me about more about her childhood. So she kind of.

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Gwendolyn: and gives a little introduction about the this school career, and then she ends the

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Gwendolyn: the sequence by saying, I had a very normal child, so it's not that it's special at all. I had my best friends, my arch animals. Yes, that's it.

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Gwendolyn: my childhood or school years also. Yeah, went quickly. Bristol went quite quickly and without big, somehow, without problems or other events also.

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Gwendolyn: So this dynamic of normalization can be attributed, among other factors to the fact that the

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Gwendolyn: that as a white person I represent the Swiss Majority society in Switzerland

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Gwendolyn: inadvertently carrying its normative perceptions of migrants

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Gwendolyn: by century, the discussion around financial origin. I not.

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Gwendolyn: I, not only ask my interviews to share the experiences, but I also inadvertently label them as others who deviate from the social norm, and thus require them to establish a position. Accordingly.

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Gwendolyn: individuals like Jasmine respond to this particularization with a defensive attitude, emphasizing how normal and Swiss they actually are.

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Gwendolyn: they do so

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Gwendolyn: as a way to counteract the implicit success succession that they by national background makes them somehow different or less Swiss.

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Gwendolyn: So what we see here, in fact, is this, what what Harvey sex already described as doing, being ordinary. So to kind of emphasize on normality

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Gwendolyn: of the life.

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Gwendolyn: So the example of just being highlights, that against my assumptions the geographic narratives of mixed individuals are often not primarily focused on the practices of pure national origin.

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Gwendolyn: Instead, the underlying issue to which the interview is respond are rather the experience of processes of othering and their reactions to it.

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Gwendolyn: So this dynamic prompted me to, to, to look deeper into the narratives and question where individuals find themselves unable to freely share the experiences, and instead adapt a defensive stance

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Gwendolyn: by applying the abductive logic, it became apparent that the narratives reveal the strategies to employ, to resist, counteract, and ring into processes of others so like in the example of jasmine to normalize, and what she actually experiences.

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Gwendolyn: So to conclude and

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Gwendolyn:  as I demonstrated, what I wanted to demonstrate by these 2 examples is that there is a chapter

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Gwendolyn: active and the sorry. The individuals are actively engaged and respond to the attributions prompted by the researchers in these interactions. They negotiate, reinterpret, refused position themselves. So, drawing on with Cashat.

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Gwendolyn: we can argue that the interview is contributed to the production of meaning, and should be considered as active participants in the research process rather than murder that delivery.

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Gwendolyn: So, in conclusion, I believe that the strange and the challenge of the biographic L

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Gwendolyn: Li lies in the objective logic by defining the underlying program structure of the individuals.

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Gwendolyn: and we not only consider the capacities to find solutions within limited environments, but also mitigate the risk of othering vulnerable with minorities within research.

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Gwendolyn: however.

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Gwendolyn: it is an ongoing and challenging enterprise that requires constant reflection on our Use categories and their effects.

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Gwendolyn: Thank you very much.

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Lena: Thank you very much. Gwendolyn

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Lena: will continue right away with that Anna Schnitz's paper, and afterwards we will have plenty of time for questions and discussion.

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Lena: So let's continue with an Us. Paper on categories and naming practices in biographical migration research.

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Anna Schnitzer: Looking forward. And now, I shared my screen you you can see the slides there. Okay? so so so great to hear you kindly, because I I think I'm very close to to to the things you, you you highlight, and I'm

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Anna Schnitzer: taking them in this like the other direction. So I'm looking forward to the discussion. the questions the session aims for come up again and again in the course of my research. So Lena and Susan asked what kind of terms the research is used to make sense of the experiences people talk about, in which ways do. Research is concepts from the terms ordinary people, ordinary people to talk about their experiences, and which consequences can this happen.

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Anna Schnitzer: have so cool refers? To whom? In what way our central questions and qualitative research, especially in biographical research which is concerned with highlighting the biographical constructions, meanings, and relevant relevance of the research partners

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Anna Schnitzer: in the field of migration research. These questions arise in a special way, as in Kubra gumish. I points out from the biographical perspective of a Muslim woman in her book, language and being. That's my translation in German. It's the class on design. naming practices and the associated categorizations are powerful constructions of belonging and alienation.

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Anna Schnitzer: and that's that was already pointed out by you, and kind of in at the same time. Naming practices are indispensable. For example, when an informed constant must be, Con say, could obtained in advance of the research, or when specific phenomena by biographical experiences are to be named and described, especially with a focus on social inequalities, discrimination and exclusion.

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Anna Schnitzer: So based on my ongoing project, on memories and biographies of families. In the context of flight and migration, I will reflect in the following on possible and impossible ways of naming and conceptualization of categories as a challenge between generalizable analyzes and making visible biographical experiences versus inadequate, generalizing, and alienating categorization reproducing social exclusion

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Anna Schnitzer: that I will start with a brief insight in my project, and then bring up like Gwendolly to a data exempt from field notes and interview transcriptions to discuss practices of naming and categorization

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Anna Schnitzer: in the course of my research, and I will finish with the short conclusion

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Anna Schnitzer: in my project the life stories and remembrance. Practices of transnational families in Switzerland are the center of my current study. And I follow the questions how practices of memorization become important. in families with migration histories, and how the families make sense of lived experiences within specific migration and language policies against the background of that family biography.

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Anna Schnitzer: The study is theoretically embedded in conceptualization, the remembrance of work, like like Lena, worked on, and remembering as a social practice

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Anna Schnitzer: in my project, family practices of narrating and remembering observed, and in addition to participant observations, family interviews with family members belonging to different generations were conducted to reconstruct family biographies.

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Anna Schnitzer: The research was conducted with 6 family groups who have experienced migration of flight, and had already been living in Switzerland before between 3 and 8 years. At the same at the time I reached out for them.

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Anna Schnitzer: I accompanied the families over longer periods of time, ranging from several months to over 3 years. In the case of by, I will present them later. I visited them several times, and conducted family interviews, and with regard to the family interviews which lasted between 2 and 3 h the family themselves chose who took part, and then I wrote field notes and and and and

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Anna Schnitzer: I have the transcriptions, and of the recorded into queues.

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Anna Schnitzer:  I now come to the focus of of This paper, already, in this brief description of my project several characterizations of my research partners, a cure. I speak of transnational families, families with migration histories. I also speak of refugees. for now we'll just list them here, and then I will take a briefly closer look. With help of exempt from my field notes and interview subscriptions.

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Anna Schnitzer: In this take, I will focus on one family, the Body family, as I call them, as key Case, because by the mother was reflecting most actively about the questions of capture that categories and naming practices.

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Anna Schnitzer: in the context of my research, and thereby questioned me and me a, and the focus of my research. And I would say she had an important impact on the design of my project.

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Anna Schnitzer: The Body family moved from Syria to Turkey after the situation got to insecure in Syria, and they then came from Turkey to Switzerland in 2,015, because they one year old child, developed a serious illness which could not be treated adequately in in testing.

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Anna Schnitzer: so both parents were in their mid thirties, and the child was 4 years old when I met them for the first time in 2,018. In the very beginning of my research I just started the

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Anna Schnitzer: the contacting of the families.

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Anna Schnitzer: The father is a doctor, and the mother studied a rapid literature and had started the correspondence schools and photography and art in in a college, in, in A, at an out college in New York. She was trying to build up a business as photographer when a first met, and they had just achieved a permanent resident status in Switzerland.

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Anna Schnitzer: We always met in a cafe, and the mother of the Barry family by a proposed to me while the child was in Nursery School. In contrast to the interview situations with the other families. The father was never present in our conversations.

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Anna Schnitzer: because by I preferred to tell me that family story on her own, because of the difficult passages due to their son's life, threatening illness. We spoke English with one another. So when I refer to this prescriptions later, it's not a translation, but we just we. We spoke English.

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Anna Schnitzer: I quote my first and field note. We comfortably sit next to each other on the red bench, our bodies and the shade now feet stretched out in the sun. The place is perfect, and I like by it. It is a pleasant conversation characterized by mutually interested questions.

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Anna Schnitzer: Now that we have become a bit more familiar, I want to bring my project into the conversation.

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Anna Schnitzer: I begin briefly with my interest in language and multilingualism, and that I it is to be left out the migration question in my dissertation, because I think that in migration reaches, you have to be careful not to do zoom research.

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Anna Schnitzer: Looking at a group from the outside which makes it especially group. In the first place, even though migration is something present everywhere that affects us all

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Anna Schnitzer: by a lessons attentively, and not

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Anna Schnitzer: then. I tell her that I nevertheless would like to look at migration processes in the new project. I'm interested in the stories of families who have migration history, and I'm not only interested in how they currently live, but also in what history they bring with them.

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Anna Schnitzer: I are still looking at me attentively, but she leans on the backpack with her right on, so that she can better look at me and move her body away from me. I sense of skepticism.

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Anna Schnitzer: She asks, what my focus is. I now come to talk about memories that I actually wanted to leave out, and I tell her that I am mainly interested in family memories and the role they play in everyday life.

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Anna Schnitzer: So in the course of this very first meeting, just at the beginning of my research, I start with my own doubts and categorizing and focusing in one aspect of the life of families.

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Anna Schnitzer: and by as follows, these doubts, and in turn questions, I focus it especially the concept of refugees that strikes her. I continue with the second

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Anna Schnitzer: passage I site.

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Anna Schnitzer: It's still the same. The the field notes are the same meeting.

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Anna Schnitzer: But then she asks whether I only want to interview families from Syria or others as well. I tell her that the other family I already spoke to is also from Syria, but I haven't decided yet how to continue.

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Anna Schnitzer: She's very skeptical again, and says there is already so much research on people from Syria. She thinks it is unfavorable to focus on the method group. They don't want to be seen as a special group. They don't want to be isolated. She says.

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Anna Schnitzer: She asked. Why I don't into the different families, not only refugees, but also families who have migrated for work.

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Anna Schnitzer: Then one could comparatively work out what is human. that they have the same struggles when they arrive in a new city. then refugee families would not feel isolated, but one could find commonalities by the comparison.

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Anna Schnitzer: Now it's my turn to? Not.

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Anna Schnitzer: I have to think about the discussions with my colleagues, and in general, during the first conception phase of the project. When I ask myself exactly these questions. I tell her that I was reflecting in this exact way, and add that I will continue to think about it.

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Anna Schnitzer: So she struggles with the cat organizations and positioning, coming along with the concept of refugees, and to suggest instead to focus on different families with different backgrounds. In doing so, refugees would not appear as a special case, but as people with struggles out also, others have.

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Anna Schnitzer: These are exactly the the questions I was thinking about in the conception of my research. Besides her critique, in the course of our first conversation, she accepts being part of my research, and about one month later we are doing an interview on her family story together. So other course. of the contact, then in your in case

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Anna Schnitzer: after. But but the discussion continues after the interview we pick up the child from the kindergarten, and as the conversation is still so interesting, I ask if I could accompany them on their way home and take the bus together.

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Anna Schnitzer: She's fine with this, and we continue talking on our way in. The

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Anna Schnitzer: Bya asks me why I am interested in refugees. She takes a critical view because refugees are simply people, and she doesn't think it's right to always emphasize what's special about them. I tell her that this also concerns me, and that I would therefore like to look at other forms of migration to. But I was advice not to, because I always it always makes the project much bigger.

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Anna Schnitzer: So our relations starts with explicit reflections of the concept of migration and refugees with a skepticism by a meat critical reflection. I also have this first phase of the project.

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Anna Schnitzer: In the following, I decide to why, in my focus for different forms of migration and contact families and different ways for the families like by a contact I contacted by a a nonprofit organization that supports refugees and 2 families will contact through a housing project that emphasizes social diversity, and that enabled contact with families who came to work, as via would say out that the cons outside the context of asylum.

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Anna Schnitzer: so as one could imagine by now the interview transcriptions in the interview, subscriptions, the terms refugee or migration hardly appear.

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Anna Schnitzer: I now switch to the transcription of the first interview I have with them by.

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Anna Schnitzer: she tells me, quite in the beginning of the interview. Then I I found a job in Abu Dhabi, and state for them to some time there, and then we start thinking where we we, we go next.

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Anna Schnitzer: Believe me, I thought of everything. I thought of Singapore I thought of for Asia I thought of anywhere that we could go together again and live there and then my husband sort of a turkey because his family is originally from there.

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Anna Schnitzer: It's close to Syria. So many series went there, and we he still have some relatives there. So we moved to Istanbul. He went before me. He rent the house, and then I joined him. And then Things that we start try, organize our ourselves.

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Anna Schnitzer: So she tells the story as a search for a good place to live. As she says, I thought of anywhere we could go together again and live there.

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Anna Schnitzer: So the migration process, it appears the project appears as a solution and an active way of looking for a place to be together as a couple, and, in the first place as a couple and then as a family.

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Anna Schnitzer: The term refugee comes in when it comes to describe a legal status in the course of the arrival in Switzerland, where they decided to go in 2,015 for the treatment of that child.

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Anna Schnitzer: I sight from a bit later in the interview in the in the first citation

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Anna Schnitzer: Then we went to the airport and we applied to be a refugee. They send us to Swiss City to what do we call it? Term account there?

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Anna Schnitzer: And a little later.

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Anna Schnitzer: and may third we received the letter that we got permit B. And it happened that it's my son's birthday.

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Anna Schnitzer: I don't know if it's coincidence, or they want, or they meant they meant to do it this way, and then we knew that we can look for apartment, and it was by then, really, that room started to become really tight, and we just wanted to move out

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Anna Schnitzer: we just want to have because of that building. It was all for related to outset the organization.

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Anna Schnitzer: And we were. There is a refugee waiting for the permit.

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Anna Schnitzer: So in the context, she uses the term refugee, she appears as dependent on governmental decisions being sent somewhere. She didn't want to be.

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Anna Schnitzer: and receiving the permit, she can finally look for an apartment and leave the place where everywhere there is a ref refugee waiting for the permit.

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Anna Schnitzer: So the term refugees related to a passage in her life where she had little autonomy to the side where and how to live.

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Anna Schnitzer: So, after these insights in the in the transcriptions, I come to a short

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Anna Schnitzer: conclusion with these excerpts from my material. I wanted to reflect on possible and impossible ways of naming and conceptualization of categories as a challenge between generalizable analyzes and making visible biographical experiences

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Anna Schnitzer: versus inadequate generalizing and alienating categorization. Reproducing social conclusion, I started with the categorizations. I refer to in my project description. Like transnational families, families with migration histories and refugees.

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Anna Schnitzer: In the interviews, migration and trust national never mentioned the term refugee appears some rare time in the first interview to describe a legal status, and just one time in the second into queue.

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Anna Schnitzer: The material shows the different naming practices that are present in the analyzes, as well as in the theoretical reflections and in the political discourse on the one hand, and in the expressions, experiences, and stories of the research partners. On the other hand.

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Anna Schnitzer: while I, as a researcher, talk about families and migration processes by A, tells me the story of the search for a place, to live in peace, and with possibilities to shape their life as a family.

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Anna Schnitzer: She talks about the difficulty to to make home of new cities and places and languages, but she never uses the word migration or transnational, although transnational, is an objective that describes her way of taking decisions and finding solutions quite well.

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Anna Schnitzer: This brings a passage of Hannah, and in her text we refugees to my mind, where she states, in the first place, I said to him. In the first place, we don't like to be called refugees. We ourselves call each other newcomers or immigrants.

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Anna Schnitzer: I uses neither newcomers, no immigrants to describe herself or her family. She tells stories of people trying to find a place to live with struggles, others might have as well

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Anna Schnitzer: the abstract terms of scientific and analytical, but also political language. They, along with categorization of strong images of a certain type of people, and therefore they should be chosen very carefully, and in the case of by, you see, like the the the term of refugee I bring in just just some doesn't fit for her, or she uses it in a certain

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Anna Schnitzer: manner, but at the same time analytical terms and concepts are central to point out mechanisms of inequality and discrimination as systematical phenomena with strong effects on people's lives, so it might be crucial not to leave out characterizations in general, but to carefully check for the adequacy towards the actual experiences of actual people, and the effects those naming practices and positioning might have for them.

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Anna Schnitzer: Thank you for your attention.

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Lena: Thank you very much, Anna.

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Lena: We now have time for questions. discussions. remarks.

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Lena: and I'm going to ask Johannes first of all, if he

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Lena: Would tell us if there any questions in the room.

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Lena: and then we will also check in the chat

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Lena: if we see any questions. Yeah, there is a question already here. Okay, that's that's great.

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can you see? Oh, oh, yes, yes, yes.

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thank you. So I joined about 5 min later, I think, but I still find it extremely.

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Lena: Oh, the

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Anna Schnitzer: yeah. we can't hear anything. It just stopped.

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Sorry. Okay, yeah, was mine. Is that working? Yeah. Yes, no, no, no. It's okay. Thanks. Thanks. I just apologize. I joined a little bit late and but I I I thoroughly enjoyed your presentation, and I wasn't intending to ask any question but you. Your presentation

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got me thinking about my own empirical research, and how to be self-conscious, or how how do we self-aware in a way I hadn't

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gathered at all. And it's really I'm going to have to go away and think about this much more, because.

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although my research is biographical, I just want to share a brief experience with you. I think we have time.

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So it's very different type of empirical research to yours. But it's just something that it triggered me in a nice way. In my interviews with

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communication experts in court. Some of the terms that came up in my initial interviews.

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 I realized now, after your talk, I was labeling people early on.

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I'll give you an example. These people used to skit. They they skill up lawyers, and they skill up judges.

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and a label I had was scaling up, and in my second batch of interviews I went back to other participants and asked them if they agreed with that label  and I just listening to your talk. I I think that was good practice, I guess.

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or it it kind of I guess so, but it it kind of resonates and echoes what you're saying.

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And to me, looking back, reflecting on it now, based on what you said that sought to it. For me personally. As a researcher it was seeking legitimacy for the labels I was using, but I guess I was involving the participants as well in in in allowing them to

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influence me in my categorizations. So do you think? I suppose my question is this, but my research is very different to yours. But do you think that there's general generalizable good practice that can be extended beyond

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the work you're doing to more generally empirical work? Even I mean, my interest is in criminal law, in courts, but what you said it really speaks to me. So do do you think what you're talking about really can be more generalizable across other empirical situations. I hope that makes sense.

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Anna Schnitzer: I I could just briefly start.

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Anna Schnitzer: maybe, and then you can. You can add them Gwendolen and Lane up to. If you want all, all of us. I think it's a it. It can be a general discussion. Yeah, I think. I think this is an important point, because I mean in in all

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Anna Schnitzer: all empirical research, we use certain categorizations we start from. And as Gwendolen showed in her in her project, if they don't pit, but to the categories that people people want to be addressed in then.

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Anna Schnitzer: but then I mean It just finishes up by not working. I ha! I I was lucky in my case that by a continued the discussion. And they didn't they? She continued questioning my project the whole way through, but she didn't didn't quit But as she was discussing the fact that I was starting

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Anna Schnitzer: by by a point. She she wasn't. She didn't agree.

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Anna Schnitzer: we, we continue discussing together. And this is this is working for, not just for biographical research and not just for migration research, but this is working for all types of research. I I would say, if you are open to, to, to listen and to reflect on the categories you're using.

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Gwendolyn: Yeah, me, too. I think it's

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Gwendolyn: Well, think about what you, what what you were telling around your situation. I was. Yes, it was. It would be very nice to go back and ask if if you're okay with this label or what they also in in later on in the research I had like a last question. So what what you understand by mixing is, what do you understand by so to see, have also an idea about their own definitions, and to see how they they reflect on it.

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Gwendolyn: Because,

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Gwendolyn: yeah, I think, what? What? What is, what? What? Also, Anna was saying her to this. to not to feel isolated, to kind of, because we isolate them by categorizing it. Yeah, research is doing this because, if not, we cannot do research, we have to isolate a group and then say, Well, it's a particular group, and I want we want to research it

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Gwendolyn: so.

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Gwendolyn: But I think to to to let them participate is very important to, to, to, to to minimize this kind of categorization, to listen. And I think this is very important to really listen what they are saying, to really listen, and not to choose, when, as you were analyzing by us by this and and story that you did. You do not put her just into categories. Oh, yeah, here we see transaction. And this here we see migration. We see how our refugees

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Gwendolyn: But to use the terms she is using, and to to show that she's, in fact, contesting the categories that I think it's a

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Gwendolyn: yeah, to be more sensitive in a way to what the people say.

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Lena: Yeah, maybe I can. Just briefly, add to that. I

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Lena: I

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Lena: I'm wondering in in addition. But a you, the Quentin and and I have been saying, I I completely agree. This is the most

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Lena: productive approach to actually open it up for mutual reflection. Yeah, the terms we're using.

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Lena: And what is happening on the side of our interview partners?

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Lena: could it be?

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Lena: that there reacting to the

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Lena: discourses our categories come from? They know these discourses as well as we do. Yeah. And we are critical of the discourses. But so a cat. we're critical of these discourses. And so our our interview partners.

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Lena: yeah. And they're critical of them, maybe for different reasons, because they don't match their actual biographical experience.

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Lena: They are not going to accept these categories for the experience, because

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Lena: they had, like, by a reasons for migration which are different from

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Lena: the categorizations from a legal

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Lena: national

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Lena: and even a certain sociological discourse.

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Lena: Yeah. So there,

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Lena: resisting, or even as in the example you gave Gwendolen refusing to

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Lena: to

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Lena: debate these categories. You know they they're just upset. They're just angry.

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Lena: So I think the the dilemma for research is we have to start out with certain categories. But I would.

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Lena:  as how can we?

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Lena: Does it make sense to make our interview partners

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Lena:  Aware of the fact that we are

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Lena: using these categories as

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Lena: you know, certain preliminary

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Lena: constructions while we're trying to understand.

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Lena:  you know

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Lena: their experience in a in a much more adequate way.

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Lena: can it be something? I mean, that's what you both did. Yeah, can it be something we we say right away, or which we say in response to their reactions.

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Lena: you know, can this be part of our research.

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Lena: What do you think but there! But I'm sure there may be more questions in the audience, too. So we so  see if Johannes has

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Lena: somebody who wants to ask

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next week. Yes. Hi! okay, Elizabeth, chilling and Hi! Happy to see you all good. But you actually are you actually in Melbourne?

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Yes, oh, wow! Great! Yes, and I I was hoping to see you all here. But I want the we are about the mixed hybrid Well, so A couple of years ago, I I've done also the biographical research on Syrian refugees

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and on the categorization of their status and

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Actually, it was directed on the educational consultants who consult refugees about their future plans, and of course they they are using categorizations which are perceived by their People as hostile as foreign for them. Not adequate!

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And although they perceived those categorizations as inadequate they were forced to obey. They were forced to somehow to take them over, and they they didn't have any resources to to

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to to fight again. And now I am trying to compare that research which was conducted a couple of years ago with the new research. I'm dining with the Ukrainian refugees, who are also well, a goal of categorizations, of course, and who are also well taking part in such a consultant processes.

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But as far as my primary results are, they have some much more resources to fight. Again the categorization to escape the categorizations, because

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they have much more ways which are open to them. They can go for education to their they can. take such hybrid educational programs for them in account. And it is interesting. although they have the resources to escape the categorizations.

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they are. they are trying to find out who who who they are. They are trying to find a category for them for them. And the process of of discussion with me or with the others. about the category. it remains.

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It remains very painful for them, and maybe we could talk about a possibility to conduct an interview in this situation where I am not perceived as a hostile somebody who is supervising or putting this category on them. But maybe

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hmm! As a reflection, other, and as somebody who who is helping to find you yourself to find a category for themselves because I well, my! My my impression is that

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they have.

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they need a category. They are seeking for a category for themselves. So The need for for the category is not only the need of us as a as researchers, but it is a initial need of of anybody of an individual, that an individual is looking for, a category, for for him or for herself.

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Lena: What? What would you see?

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Anna Schnitzer: I I have.

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Anna Schnitzer: I do you. Yeah, just if you want.

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Sorry.

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Anna Schnitzer: do I? I I I I think I I don't have an answer. I have just the additional because I was thinking it. It's very interesting to hear what you say. And this search for a category, because I was thinking about this, and when I was working with the working through the interviews with on my field notes with.

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Anna Schnitzer: because I I have the impression I didn't find any category she's putting herself in. She's talking about herself as a mother, as a family. She's talking about struggles.

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Anna Schnitzer: coming into a new city, not wanting to be there, and how to deal with all these struggles, but she always points out that these are struggles other people also have. And she in in our discussions, she's pointing, pointing out to the, to the human, she says, to the human aspect of all these struggles she has, and that's why she's

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Anna Schnitzer: she's refusing the category of migration and and and refugee as as a focus. I chose as inadequate, so I didn't find any

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Anna Schnitzer: category. She would

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Anna Schnitzer: she? She would choose for herself to fit in. And and this is very interesting to hear that you see in your interviews these

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Anna Schnitzer: the the the search for a fitting

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Anna Schnitzer: category, and I would say, for buy it. It's different.

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Gwendolyn: Yeah, I I would perhaps add, well, I I did research on mixed individuals. So

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Gwendolyn: they're they. They were looking also for cadet when they were all young adults. So that kind of wants to be in that degrees I had, I assume.

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Gwendolyn: but and what I I was what I found really interesting in my research was that in in Switzerland they had existing categories. They put on them like they hibernated like Swiss, Moroccan or Swiss whatever. So they had kind of a category they they were able to call themselves, and I did also the same research in Morocco, and there I observed that they had. They had not this kind of discourse of hyphenated identity constructions.

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Gwendolyn: and they often said, Well, I'm nothing, or I'm ever seen. So it was always this kind of

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Gwendolyn: they. They were just looking for something they could.

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Gwendolyn: And yeah, they could describe themselves what they experiencing.

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Gwendolyn: So I perhaps it it depends also on the context, because refugees and minds are very politicized categories. And well, in my research it was not a policy, political category. It was more discourse, if socially category, I would say from side. But I think what is very important. What you pointed out a little bit is also the resources they have to fight against categories, and I think that is very nice to see also bias narrative from your another.

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Gwendolyn: She had, like some resource to fight, and she also find a counterpart who was listening to her, and so she kind of felt, as you can, polarized and see

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Gwendolyn: to discuss with you these categories, but on the other, I think on well, in the case of of Urban Mike is who rejected the interest. But, in the first place, I have never met him. I could not interact with him. So that was the first. So it was something at some somebody else. We did the job for me, and how he used categories that we're not adequate.

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Gwendolyn: But also, I think Aaron was, is a a racialized person, so he also he has.

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Gwendolyn: He has well, continuously. He has to

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Gwendolyn: to navigate these category stations in his daily life. So as a as a rationalized person in Switzerland.

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Gwendolyn: I think, who grew up in Switzerland. And yeah has no migration history. in that that sense. So and I think he I I would assume perhaps he has.

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Gwendolyn: He has not that much resources to to engage in a in a discussion, or he is not. Perhaps he has just not,

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Gwendolyn: just not wants to it, but I don't know, because I never met him really. So I kind of really say the reasons why he didn't engage in the discussion with me. But at the beginning, in the first one and the interaction, the phone he

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Gwendolyn: he was engaging in a discussion. But apparently I did. I didn't write, so he didn't felt that I was open to hear him.

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 Gwendolen, thank you very much. I forgot to say

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how inspiring I found your research, and it brought me to the idea that until now I was analyzing maybe the onset things I said. Of course, the set links and unsaid things. But it brought me to the idea. Actually, I should analyze also the unconducted interviews, probably because

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because well, it is very important why people agreed to to talk to us, and why they disagree to talk to us, and what could have been said, but wasn't because the interviews didn't come to the State because of some some reasons, and they are very important, probably much more important than than many other things. Thank you.

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Lena: Is there a question? If not, I would like to ask Elizabeth to question, or is it? Is that?

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Well, is there a question? I will have some questions. But yes, yeah. Sorry for the confusion. My, my computer like, was out of battery, because the adapter doesn't fit, and I tried to get it fit. But now we exchange the laptop so that you can still see us. So I've

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First a question for Anna, so I thanks a lot. I find it very inspiring. But I was wondering myself, like considering your interesting language, playing the devil's advocate. If you would give this talk in an anthropological setting, the first question that they would ask you would be, what what would the people themselves refer to in Arabic.

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for example, because there's like several words, for, like many people, don't use the word refugee in Arabic, actually like there's about software like Traveller or Mohadju, which is moh to would be probably refugee. Then there's another one being in the in the alien environment. So what did you ask them about that? Or would that be? Would that work as an analytical category for you, or why not? I think it's also a disciplinary

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question there? Because I think anthropologists would insist

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that the amic category should be the first one to be abroad than then to see if they can be generalized.

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so that would, and then I would have 2 questions for Gwendolen, but even that I was 3 min out of the discussion. I hope I didn't miss something.

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So the first one would be Do you see patents of people who

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kind of go along

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with the description of being a transnational family? Is it something that you can generalize like people with a certain biography tend to be more skeptical about it and others less.

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then to see it as less problematic. Are there any patterns of structures that you can see?

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It's a first question. And the second question, because I think that's going to be a topic in the research that I'll be doing soon is, if also the national in by a national can be a problem. For example, if you ask

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people who come from minorities within a State and don't affiliate with a certain nation. Also.

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At least, that's what I'm going to do. A research about Assyrian Christians from Turkey or Syria, and they don't want to be called Turkish National, or most of them.

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I would say, like, I don't consider myself Turkish

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something else than by national thanks.

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Anna Schnitzer: you know I I don't have an answer because I I didn't talk with her about that, but I I could. I could reach out for her and go in in a discussion, I think, for me. I was. I also was trying out to leave was trying to to leave out these categories. And that's why I didn't go into a discussion about how she would

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Anna Schnitzer: talk about herself in, in, in Arabic or in her own categories. I was just When I was going through the interview. I I I

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Anna Schnitzer: recognize that there wasn't any category she was using, at least in English. But it's an interesting point. And in other families They were talking about the journey.

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Anna Schnitzer: so that would fit to the Arabic category. You you you you brought in. But that's an interesting point. I will. I will. continue on that. Thank you

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Gwendolyn: erez agmoni, yeah. And just just also to add to the question of amic categories. in fact. But what is also always interesting is to look how what they do or how they feel the category. So at a certain point in my research, I was looking what they do, in what? 101,

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Gwendolyn: what is for their mixedness. The way? When in what way

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Gwendolyn: did they use the categories of what you did also on on refugee? But to to look how they fill the categories you you have in your research. But that's just a side remark. So and thank you for your questions. so yes, in fact, yeah, actually, I was looking at patterns. So that's one of my

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Gwendolyn: big outcomes of my Phd research. So I I I came along like I I reconstructed like 4 different patterns, how they they go along with their transnational heritage.

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Gwendolyn: and, in fact, and I linked it also.

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Gwendolyn: All the patents are very linked to the resources they have, and the connection they have within the family with different family members, with the country of origin of the migrant parent, for example. So there were just the ones who were really kind of positioned themselves in between. And they said, Well, I'm both. And I feel very comfortable in this

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Gwendolyn: this. Yeah, this. it's 2 contexts, and they were mostly in in which we had really strong transnational ties, that they spoke both languages or several languages. If they were several languages in the family, and they they had a really

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Gwendolyn: typed bounds to to both origins.

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Gwendolyn: and then, yeah, then I I had other. Another time that was more kind of an

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Gwendolyn: when there are less resources. And as, for example, in the case of Jasmine, I presented, they kind of have the difficulty that that kind of ascribed to be different. But they don't feel different, because on the one first of all, they don't speak the other language. They grew up in Switzerland. So what about? Says I. Just mean at the very beginning. And they they see their family, their relatives very well.

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Gwendolyn: Not that often, or from the from the family that's far away. And so they kind of have no research to connect

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Gwendolyn: to to this other origin. And and there it is there it becomes. that there, there I found this this strategy of normally say to say, well, I'm Swiss. In fact, I'm not so special. I'm kind of

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Gwendolyn: I I I found quite often. So it depends a lot of the resources they have

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Gwendolyn: and how they connect to their national heritage.

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I would say.

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Gwendolyn: and and also another fact is, it is also that the experience of of frustration, of exclusion so well that I had a very broad sample. So

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Gwendolyn: the people who were rationalized and over who had very strong experience of exclusion, that was, in fact, influencing how? How they position themselves, how they felt about their financial origin.

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Gwendolyn: and just mean it's what is it? For? I was

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Gwendolyn: It's a rapid Swiss, so

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Gwendolyn: she's she always said, Well, I I they see me a Spanish, and that's okay. So that's kind of it's valorized being Spanish. So it's nice. They simulate Spanish. So she had not this kind of

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Gwendolyn: problems. And

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Gwendolyn: yeah, and well, in fact, it. The second question, I think it's very interesting question about the minorities and how they perceive themselves. But if I was just saying I I really I have.

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Gwendolyn: I haven't really, or at least they haven't told me about being part of a minority, or that their parents are part of the minority

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Gwendolyn: in international country of origin. So I I don't. No, I don't. I think it's a very interesting question, but I cannot really respond to it

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Gwendolyn: erez agmoni. But I would. I would assume that it's plays a crucial role, in fact. So for example, I did research in Morocco. And there it's it's it's a crucial if you're a umazier, or if you're Arab, so 150

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Gwendolyn: But in fact, my interview is we all

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Gwendolyn: more of your own

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Gwendolyn: Arab descent. I remember what? Yeah, but I I should have go through through my day. In fact, it's very just a question. I haven't. Yeah.

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Gwendolyn: But yeah, in in Morocco, with distributed. It's very important.

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Gwendolyn: If you if you're the

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Gwendolyn: dominated group, or

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Gwendolyn: yeah, you have something

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Gwendolyn: sorry for my language. I just makes up everything. It's a bit late.

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Lena: The other questions in the room right now.

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Lena: your.

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Lena: I think everybody seems happy at the moment. Happy. Okay, I don't want to. I don't want to make people unhappy, but I would like to Ask Elizabeth whether she has a notion, an idea what her

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Lena: interview partners we're looking for, and I'm just wondering whether in some situations

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Lena: we we're looking for collective to figure out the situation we're in. Yeah. And this could be, you know, in the case of a collective trajectory.

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Lena: we need the

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Lena: you know, we need categories to understand what kind of a collective, what kind of trajectory it is that is affecting.

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Lena: the refugees, immigrants from Ukraine.

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Lena: and in other cases,

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Lena: we would not need collective categories. We would even refuse them because we

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Lena: are convinced that we all we need is our individual.

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Lena:  you know biography to make sense of the situation where it? Yeah. So when I'm I'm just wondering, are there particular situations when we need to, when we need the collective

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Lena: versus, when we refuse it to make sense of our biography.

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It is hard to say. I have to think about it, but I'll bring you an example in order. What I was referring to in in the case of the Ukrainian refugees, the the language is very important, and we are again. It was already referred to the language by honor. Today the language is very important.

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The refugees who are mainly fleeing the war from the eastern Ukraine, where Russian was spoken

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and many of them experienced really dramatic things connected with the language, and so they refuse to talk in Russian, and they are trying to switch into Ukrainian. Although Russian is their native language, their mother tongue, they do not really good or proficient in Ukrainian.

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and they learned it at school. and somehow they they are they can speak it, but not really not really fluent, not really well, native, and this is a this is also a question of how categorizations are lived. Right do I belong to this language or to the

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that language? Do I belong to this part of the nation? This is the categorisation of nationality, and the categorisation of belonging to whom I belong to the aggressor who killed my family, or do I belong to the others who are trying to defend me? Do I want to belong to them, or do I want to belong to the others.

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And it is a very hard decision, because, on the one hand, the aggressors Speak this language Russian, and, on the other hand, the ancestors, the the family, the mother spoke this language. And the interview is used to

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and therefore some people agree to talk to me, because they, they are hoping on my expertise. What? What kind of expertise I can give here it is. well, humiliating, somehow. But oh, okay, it is used like this. And the the others might refuse

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this interview, because I can only offer to to talk

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in Russian with him.

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with them right. And then, therefore I I'm not well, worse I I I I'm not the expert they need right

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Lena: and in this but probably it's not what you are asking about. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I'm just. I'm just thinking of the particular situation, you know, with the example of of this group of people that they are in Germany, you know, which also matters. Yeah. So and in in trying to figure out,

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Lena: what is happening, what their place is in the middle of this and there

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Lena: possibilities their options. Yeah, so it's it. I would

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Lena:   and

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Lena: trying to figure out what being in Germany means

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Lena: to what you what you said, you know, which is really conflict. You's already sort of losing your language.

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Lena: And yeah, the language your own language becomes tainted. So

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 well, the problem between individual and collective is maybe also they are. Who am I? And what is my collective? Who is bringing this language to me? Are this the individuals that in my family, for example? Or is it the propaganda? Or is it somehow the policy of the State or or something different? Who who is bringing the language

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to me? Who is bringing my identity to me. And what is my part in in doing it.

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Lena: you know, in doing their identity and doing the biography and doing the language.

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But we, we should definitely think about it.

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Anna Schnitzer: We have one a question in the chat for Gwendolen. But I have just one brief. We remark I want to bring in, because I'm thinking of it. it it yeah. Since the the presentation of you, Gwendolen, and and what you said, Elizabeth, brings me to this point again. That thinking about this categories is is important in in different ways, I think.

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Anna Schnitzer: And one thing was the the the point we already discussed that categories. We we have to think in categories, in in research, if we want to generalize, if we want to

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Anna Schnitzer: picks results or or work on results, but we always have to check If these categories are adequate for

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Anna Schnitzer: the in in regard to the to the experiences of of of the the people we are talking to, all the people we are working with in our research. And on the this is 1 point, and, on the other hand, and I was already you pointed that out wendolin quite nicely. I I felt like I missed that out. the thinking about categories. also points on

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Anna Schnitzer: important highlights, which

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Anna Schnitzer: points versus results important. I mean, my English is a little. It's difficult. This made, I hope you understand what I mean. So it it, it can sensitize. the work on the categories in in your case, also consensitize for important aspects of the field. So the search for belonging or the

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Anna Schnitzer: the the the being questioned to be normal in your case, so to be addressed as someone not normal or, in in your case a little bit to, to, to to be addressed as someone

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Anna Schnitzer: speaking Russian and and refusing this Russian national category all the search for belonging. And and I think this is important. in this categorizing reflections that we can think about our fields.

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Anna Schnitzer:  At the same time.

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Lena: I hope so. She will understand my point that I'm not very clear.

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Gwendolyn: Yeah, yeah, I I agree with you, and I will. I will not. At that I would just quickly also answer to the question. I think it's a very interesting question. Perhaps I should say well, I did it. I German service speaker. As a researcher. So, in fact, the category by national was a progressive choice, because we have no other word. We have not the board mixed in German, or we have it, but we cannot use it because it's kind of

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Gwendolyn: So because of the Nazi regime, it's it's a category you cannot use anymore.

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Gwendolyn: So it wasn't kind of a pragmatic choice, and I had a choice between intercultural the a well, into cultural by national, wasn't there a one? It just doesn't come in my mind. And so I was kind of I I thought. Well, by national is the most

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Gwendolyn:  erez agmoni an objective one, because you have 2 nationalities. They come from different national contexts. And I had this assumption, as I told you in the beginning, that when they were socialized in different national contexts, so one.

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Gwendolyn: then there will be somehow a mixed environment when they meet, because they speak different languages, or they have different traditions or norms. So this is somehow my, my, my my frame. But in fact, as I was, I was I was well, I I noticed that the national is is a do a listen. So we have like, yeah, this in the world, one by national. And so what I did, in fact, is to use it as a heuristic category. So and I I emphasize that quite a lot is that

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that I I I just it was me a starting point

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Gwendolyn: to understand what other things could be added to this mixiveness. So, in fact, I I looked at the live stories, and as well they have by national origin. So they have 2 nationalities in the family. But do they speak multiple languages? Do they have others? Do they talk about other things? They are more relevant than nationalities. And, in fact.

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Gwendolyn: I, I would say all my narrative into this nationality didn't play any role, so they were never talking about double citizenship, almost never. They were not talking about. Yes, I speak the both languages or not. I I wish it families. I have relationships in the 2 2 environments of

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Gwendolyn: so to really look at what? What becomes relevant for them within this framework of of my national origins? That was 150.

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Gwendolyn: But how I I work so I would say yes, In some cases it was also the mixed race. which was very important, having a a white mother and a black father, for example, that's how how they negotiate these tensions

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Gwendolyn: in the family. yeah, or cultures. Or for be, yeah, and also for the, it was also, what is it for this country that also very, very big words? So I was more on the practical level to look how

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Gwendolyn: how it is reflected in in their life stories. This makes it.

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Yeah. that's it.

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Gwendolyn: Just to answer quick to this question.

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Gwendolyn: And I, 1 one term I I came across after my research is the transnational family. In fact, I think that's also very nice. Well, after you and I, you said translation is also like a category. You can become tested but transnational families.

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Gwendolyn: It's perhaps a nice way also to to categorize this kind of experience. But but then you have. Yeah, you have just like Jasmine, who would never fix this category because she has no relations to her Iraqi

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Gwendolyn: origin. So she's not really transnational.

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Gwendolyn: Yeah, there is plenty of questions on the category itself. But thank you very much for your

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Lena: I think there's a question in the chat. Can you see it? I can't see it.

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Gwendolyn: Yeah, that was the question I was answering, Yeah, I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks.

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Lena: What are there questions in the in the room?

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Lena: Because we don't see the room? So we we have to.

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Are you, too?

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Anna Schnitzer: No, we we see a beautiful orange curtain, and we see that there is a

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Lena: I don't see. no, no, just

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laptop. We exchange the computers. It's not your. It's John Taggart.

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Lena: Oh, Hi! Hi! But I don't. How can I see that

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if you go on the flesh on the blue flesh.

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Lena: the blue flesh and the flesh is. It's it's it's a French aero. Yeah.

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Lena: I don't. I don't see it, but it's okay. I'll I'll take your description. This is wonderful. It's it's a true, it's a true cave experience. What I inside. And I see the shadows. I'm guessing. What could it be? The orange curtain is pretty nice, isn't it?

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Yeah, but it's so many cables inside. I don't wanna mess up with it.

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Lena: So yeah, no, we we we' on

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great.

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JohnTaggart: and then maybe

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Lena: Now I see you, but the sound has turned into an echo, but it looks like call quite fall in your room. You have a a carpet. It is not some nice weather in Melbourne

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I have winter, it's winter here.

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So the nights are pretty cold. Today's you're from Australia. And you, okay? so yeah. The night out, maybe going down to 7 or 8 decrees. And yeah, it's windy, and the the windows are not particularly well insulated.

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Lena: Hmm, hmm.

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yeah.

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All this is recorded by the ways of people can later listen to our judgment. I mean, we we all know that. But the conference is marvelous. We all know that weather really matters.

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Yeah, but I I mean, it's still better than the German or the Berlin winter at least, so I don't mind. It's actually kind of nice exchange for the like 40 degrees or 35 degrees. So oh, probably, Qundling, I don't know where you are at in France. It's pretty hot, I heard.

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Gwendolyn: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'm in Strasbourg at the moment, and we had no rain since 40 days. It's kind of every day it's 30 something. So yeah, it's

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it's actually Melbourne would be a good.

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Yeah. The sun rises, it's 7, 15, and then it gets to get 5, 30, something like that. So

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it's like, yeah.

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middle of the winter.

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Lena: so we should. We have a round of concluding remarks, or at least preliminary concluding remarks. So Some of us can go for coffee, and others of us can go for a few hours of sleep.

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Lena: Yeah.

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Lena: what would you like to begin wendelling this? You started with your talk with you?

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Lena: Like to make some preliminary concluding remarks. I've been not so much given concluding remark, because I've been not so much given concluding remark. It was, I think it's an ongoing discussion, and it's a discussion we have to do in every research, or I would wish to.

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Gwendolyn: So I would more to say, I I really like to tell the exchange so it was really nice to have that one time of discussion in the session. So, and having also your insights, and

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Gwendolyn: I think it's

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Gwendolyn: for me. What? As more also to the question of yeah, this question of resources. In fact, it's just still in my head or working in my head. So

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01:23:02.180 --> 01:23:07.849
Gwendolyn: who can resist this categories, and who cannot, and who has to accept these categories?

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01:23:07.990 --> 01:23:13.280
Gwendolyn: So that's somehow something you see in my mind. Thank you very much.

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01:23:14.950 --> 01:23:18.449
Lena:  and now, would you like to

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01:23:18.510 --> 01:23:40.079
Anna Schnitzer: and more questions, thank you so much it it's so interesting to go into this discussion, I, and I think what I now and this is great. To have the room and the time for discussion. What I take with me is the point. I already tried to say

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01:23:40.620 --> 01:23:58.220
Anna Schnitzer: in my in my remark before is that I I tend to reflect a lot on categories. But then I forget to think about what these categories mean. for my research question. So

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01:23:58.310 --> 01:24:16.819
Anna Schnitzer: the the the the thinking of and the reflection on categories always points on something that helps you to go further with your research question, and I sometimes tend to forget that. And I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I I I get stuck in the in the reflection circle

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Anna Schnitzer: and Already the the talk of Gwendolen, and then your remarks. help me to to to encourage me to think of. What does that? The the reflection I go tell me about my field and my research questions. And this is

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Anna Schnitzer: hmm really, really interesting the question, Johannes. asked me. the reflection of Elizabeth of Gwendolen. Just just bring me to to think further about my field and not to stuck in the reflection that ref reflection is important, but you can use it for thinking about your field, and that's the point I'm

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01:24:56.850 --> 01:25:00.179
Anna Schnitzer: I I'm taking with me. Thank you very much.

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01:25:02.290 --> 01:25:06.929
Lena: Yeah. I I would like to really thank both of you

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01:25:07.010 --> 01:25:14.799
Lena:  for your very thoughtful talks, and everybody who raised questions and commented.

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01:25:14.960 --> 01:25:17.229
Lena: and I'm

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01:25:17.530 --> 01:25:21.679
Lena: really Taking with me

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01:25:21.710 --> 01:25:27.889
Lena: to think about situations. in which we can

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01:25:28.150 --> 01:25:31.379
Lena: raise our

459
01:25:32.050 --> 01:25:45.420
Lena: reflection, you know it raised this question openly, you know, by  including our interview partners into

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01:25:46.160 --> 01:25:59.209
Lena: the the a sort of a joint reflection on Does this really describe the situation you're in? Or how would you see yourself in

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01:25:59.270 --> 01:26:08.220
Lena: relation to this category? You know there might there might really be interview situations when this is adequate.

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01:26:08.550 --> 01:26:14.460
Lena: Maybe not every interview situation but it could.

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01:26:14.470 --> 01:26:15.909
Lena: It could take

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01:26:16.260 --> 01:26:22.969
Lena: away a lot of the tension in which we.

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01:26:23.550 --> 01:26:26.129
Lena: you know, from the set of researchers.

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01:26:26.140 --> 01:26:29.390
Lena: We try to

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01:26:30.370 --> 01:26:41.760
Lena: see our categories at work, you know, while we are trying to listen to our

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01:26:42.040 --> 01:26:45.590
Lena: interview, our research partners what they

469
01:26:45.610 --> 01:26:48.420
Lena:  would rather

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01:26:48.600 --> 01:26:57.640
Lena: use as categories. So so maybe this can be brought out into the open. Yeah, in at least some situations.

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01:26:57.690 --> 01:26:58.950
Lena: We'll try.

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01:27:01.650 --> 01:27:04.770
Lena: Thank you so much, and

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01:27:04.880 --> 01:27:17.860
Lena: have a have a great day. We have another interesting session coming up just to point to that which is at

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01:27:18.220 --> 01:27:30.890
Lena: at your time. 3, 30. That's right. It's on the same interview. Different perspectives.

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01:27:31.040 --> 01:27:32.430
Lena: So

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01:27:32.980 --> 01:27:38.350
Lena: please join and enjoy the Congress.

477
01:27:38.920 --> 01:27:39.000
Oh, thanks very much. And thank you so much. The talks here from Melbourne. yeah. And I hope you have a pleasant night. No, it's very short, very short.