WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:18.839
Anna Schnitzer: Okay. Then I switched to English in the official mode. sorry for talking in German, and between each other. I welcome you to the session. The social construction of migrants contested histories of migration from the perspective of biographical research which has been organized by Steve Tuna on the bomb, and a Lucas Chisangali.

2
00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:32.450
Anna Schnitzer: and I I have the role of the chair. I I wasn't involved in the in the great organization. So I try to moderate from my virtual position.

3
00:00:33.110 --> 00:00:52.690
Anna Schnitzer: We just decided to switch the sequence of the of the presentations, because I can't see the 2 colleagues from the University of Milan already here? If so, just

4
00:00:52.690 --> 00:01:17.689
Anna Schnitzer: you would be the second in the row. So I'm glad to present a Johannes Becka, who is who will also be the Co. moderator in in person. as you are in Myvan a your Hamas We would love to be there, too. But well, okay, we set it home. Johann, Beckett is a post. That research.

5
00:01:17.690 --> 00:01:39.389
Anna Schnitzer: as as the Department of Physiology of the University of I've got you getting. And this current currently holding a professorship at the University of Light Sick at the Research center for global Dynamics. and you have it. You have present. You have prepared your presentation under the title, The varying Importance of migration in the city life.

6
00:01:39.390 --> 00:01:55.259
Anna Schnitzer: So we start with 15 min of presentation for each and present presenter, and then we have 10 min of discussion, and I will signal you the 3 last minutes of your presentation. So you can keep the the the time in mind. Okay?

7
00:01:56.050 --> 00:02:12.279
All right. Yeah. Thanks a lot for the invitation and for the possibility to present. Okay, what I'm going to present is not the center of my research. It's more of a side aspect. it's it's a bit of an exercise. Let's see how it goes.

8
00:02:12.900 --> 00:02:21.800
why does migration play such a huge role in some cities, while in others it is marginal in biographies of inhabitants, and in this causes.

9
00:02:23.610 --> 00:02:26.310
 where do we have to press

10
00:02:26.330 --> 00:02:27.870
the arrows?

11
00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:30.450
No.

12
00:02:36.480 --> 00:02:37.280
okay.

13
00:02:38.750 --> 00:02:49.630
Douglas. Meth Douglas Messi developed a culture of migration perspective in the late 1980 S. On the 19 early, 1990, s. As part of his cumulative causation theory.

14
00:02:49.950 --> 00:02:53.389
migration becoming cumulative because, as he argued

15
00:02:53.420 --> 00:03:02.899
to quote, each act of migration alters the social context within which subsequent migration decisions are made typically in ways that make additional movement. More likely.

16
00:03:03.410 --> 00:03:14.399
He argues that migration experiences affect, how migration is seen, often increasing the likelihood of onward migration, and an appreciation of the possibilities that come with migration.

17
00:03:14.970 --> 00:03:20.679
but migration not only alters those migrating, but according to Messi also, communities.

18
00:03:21.220 --> 00:03:27.740
migration experiences trickle into generalized patterns of interpretation in the community, massive rights

19
00:03:28.160 --> 00:03:47.870
at a community level. Migration becomes deeply ingrained into the rapid war of people's behaviors and values associated with migration become part of the community's values. But why do some places become characterized by a culture of migration, while in others migration attempts are tamed, or migration histories and previous entanglements lose their importance.

20
00:03:47.920 --> 00:03:54.550
establishing instead what could be called a culture of non-migration, or, as I will argue, the culture of the old established.

21
00:03:55.280 --> 00:04:04.870
my presentation deals with processes which contribute to the extension of migratory practices towards a culture of migration, as in the case of Amman.

22
00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:14.850
also a hegemonic position of non-migration in everyday life, and the culture of the old established, as I will reconstruct taking the example of East Jerusalem.

23
00:04:19.900 --> 00:04:30.479
building up an extended periods of research in these 2 cities. This comparative paper questions, how these different cultures developed in geographically and culturally, actually, pretty close cities

24
00:04:30.490 --> 00:04:48.510
and studies did this through biographies and family stories based on biographical case, reconstructions and historical analysis. to trace the development of a culture of migration or non-migration. In-depth field work in local communities is needed, such as through participant observation

25
00:04:48.520 --> 00:05:03.329
as well as an extended social historical approach that spends several generations as is possible with biographical and family historical interviews to detect development changes and continuities in relation to the way migration is experienced and interpreted.

26
00:05:03.700 --> 00:05:22.110
So I conducted around 50 microphone biographical narrative interviews in Jerusalem, and with, together with colleagues, 80 biographical narrative interviews in Amman, and I also conducted a long time participant observation over the period of several months.

27
00:05:22.960 --> 00:05:33.469
and I'll introduce in this presentation to cases of 2 established families, one in East Jerusalem, and one in Amman, and present them interwoven in the city's histories.

28
00:05:38.330 --> 00:05:47.099
In Palestinian East Jerusalem. The politically and religiously charged situation is interrelated with everyday life in general, and with mobility in particular.

29
00:05:47.420 --> 00:05:54.940
The challenges in everyday life are connected to a focus on the immediate spatial surroundings, and often with the present

30
00:05:55.580 --> 00:06:09.139
spatial constrictions and legal discrimination contribute to a focus on continuity of being in the city. The most likely possibility to guarantee continuity is belonging to old established families.

31
00:06:10.180 --> 00:06:20.619
These Jerusalem-ite families, as they are called, are an important category in city life, and associated with century long continuing presence in the city.

32
00:06:22.220 --> 00:06:26.819
Jerusalemite cities are an important power chance in the Palestinian community today.

33
00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:32.319
 these families, as well as their properties, are widely known.

34
00:06:33.740 --> 00:06:43.860
Migration, on the other hand, does not promise migration, on the other hand, does not promise continuity, and migrants do not have to power chances of the old established.

35
00:06:44.120 --> 00:07:01.589
This is true, even though the majority of the Palestinian Palestinian inhabitants in East Jerusalem today stem from migrants from the south of Palestine, particularly the town of Hebron, who came to the city between the end of the nineteenth century, and the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem in 1,967.

36
00:07:02.700 --> 00:07:20.169
Many come from poor families, and worked at least after their arrival in low status jobs. however, their experiences of migration to Jerusalem were neither followed by onward migration nor by migration becoming part of the community's values as messy defined it for the culture of migration.

37
00:07:20.570 --> 00:07:24.020
Rather, they emplaced themselves in East Jerusalem.

38
00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:45.160
At the same time their migration histories are usually downplayed or neglected, they are considered as outsiders in relation to old established families. The Hebronites are seen as overly religious and uncivilized, endangering the Liberal Urban Lifestyle of the Jerusalem-mite families.

39
00:07:45.890 --> 00:07:56.870
while such an established outsider, figuration of migrants and old established is not unusual. See the Seminole study by Nova Delias on the established and the outsiders.

40
00:07:56.970 --> 00:08:12.680
The strong focus on the local and on continuity, can only be understood by taking the Israeli occupation politics into account that put pressure on proving ones belonging to Jerusalem, and contribute to the culture of the old established.

41
00:08:15.780 --> 00:08:24.640
I'm going to introduce to you a mixed family of old established Jerusalemites and migrants from hepron

42
00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:31.980
to highlight, the power differentials, the focus on continuity, and the value of being all established.

43
00:08:33.590 --> 00:08:38.440
I conducted 3 interviews, or we contacted 3 interviews in the NASA family.

44
00:08:38.800 --> 00:08:41.540
with the parents and one of the 2 children.

45
00:08:42.420 --> 00:08:51.579
Nabila Nasser, the mother, a teacher, comes from an old established Jerusalemite family of the same name, and her husband Jamal.

46
00:08:51.590 --> 00:08:55.559
also a teacher from a family of poor white migrants.

47
00:08:55.870 --> 00:09:01.110
There was a clear separation of the 2 family parts, with the clear dominance of the old. Established

48
00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:06.060
in the. In the initial interview with Nabila NASA,

49
00:09:06.090 --> 00:09:15.719
she presented herself towards my colleague. She presented herself towards my colleague, Anan as a civilized member of a Jerusalem-ite family.

50
00:09:16.300 --> 00:09:21.089
She introduced her husband only in a side remark as being from Hebron.

51
00:09:21.570 --> 00:09:31.040
When Anan asked her explicitly, Nabila spoke of a cultural gap between them, his origins as the reasons for problems in their marriage.

52
00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:48.290
In a second interview, which I conducted with Theirsan Muhammad, who grew up with Nabila's Jerusalemite parents, his grandparents. He, too, avoided any mention of his father's Hebronite family, even when I explicitly asked him about it

53
00:09:48.890 --> 00:09:58.549
about his mother's family, he says, I know that they are Jerusalem. They didn't come from outside. No, they the father, their grandfather. They were in Jerusalem.

54
00:10:00.490 --> 00:10:04.589
He showed me the Jerusalem History book that his grandmother read to him.

55
00:10:04.630 --> 00:10:09.380
and that when she finished the book she started reading it again.

56
00:10:13.800 --> 00:10:19.110
When other interview appointments with members of the Jerusalem outside of the family failed.

57
00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:23.700
Nabila NASA reluctantly agreed to ask her husband.

58
00:10:24.370 --> 00:10:38.469
The interview with him took place in the presence of Nabila and their daughter. Jamal talked about his family's migration of growing up poor in a dilapidated neighborhood of which the family was later evicted by the Israeli Government.

59
00:10:38.770 --> 00:10:43.590
as well as about social mobility, through education and subsequent marriage.

60
00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:50.950
In the background, however, Nabila and their daughter laughed about his stories, sometimes interrupting him.

61
00:10:51.890 --> 00:11:05.480
After the interview the daughter told me that she only vaguely knew about her father's migration and the eviction. The focus on the Jerusalem outside of the family had the effect that there was ignorance towards the migration of Jamal.

62
00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:12.600
This culture of the old established remained effective through the that surrounded the migration.

63
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:21.359
As a contrast, I'm going to present you with the biography and family history of Ali.

64
00:11:21.700 --> 00:11:24.509
a Circuitian Jordanian from Amman.

65
00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:27.629
their second tone, that the town I'm going to talk about

66
00:11:27.770 --> 00:11:32.270
coming from a family of migrants, and he was born in 1,938.

67
00:11:33.990 --> 00:11:47.350
Ali's life trajectory is characterized by the fact that his family was included in Jordan's new national elite after the country's independence in 1,946, despite their migratory status.

68
00:11:47.910 --> 00:11:50.260
or, more precisely because of it.

69
00:11:50.600 --> 00:12:03.019
he belongs to the established today, and is thus similar to the Jerusalemite family, despite not being able to to prove a continuing presence in the area of Jordan. Despite not being old, established.

70
00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:17.310
Ali is a retired pilot of the Jordanian national airline. His paternal grandfather was circuitian of refugee from the Russian persecution of Muslims in the Caucasus at the end of the nineteenth century.

71
00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:33.310
His maternal grandfather was a Turkish soldier soldier in the Ottoman army. Several of his brothers became involved in the Jordanian State building process from the 1940 S. Onward they were senior military officers, ambassadors, and attaches.

72
00:12:33.770 --> 00:12:42.590
State-building offered possibilities for minorities as servants of power as course as causes suggested it.

73
00:12:43.210 --> 00:12:49.689
the elite considered itself as modern in terms of family fashion, education, and mobility.

74
00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:55.539
Ali did not enter a state career, but went abroad.

75
00:12:56.500 --> 00:13:14.849
First he worked for 6 years in the Gulf, facilitated by family networks, and then he went to Britain, where he trained as a pilot. That's not early on the picture, but that's King Hussein, the King of Jordan, who was himself, and a devoted pilot, which shows this orientation towards modernity in the State elite.

76
00:13:17.250 --> 00:13:28.170
he started flying for the State airline in 1,968. He was part of a mobile military that failed as much at home in the capitals of Western Europe as in the rich part of Amman.

77
00:13:28.990 --> 00:13:40.940
Like many elite members, he married a European woman. however, in the 19 seventies, his family lost influence. When the king relied on other groups. Ali was suspended from service.

78
00:13:41.650 --> 00:13:53.839
he went abroad and worked several years for the airline of an East Asian country. In the 19 eighties he returned to the Jordanian airline, dividing his life between Amman and France, where his wife lived.

79
00:13:55.130 --> 00:14:01.179
Ali, like the NASA family, looks down on Bedouins and peasants as not being modern.

80
00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:09.099
but he does so from the position of an established migrant who disregards traditional land-bound life.

81
00:14:09.350 --> 00:14:15.350
or, as he says, to quote, there are few modern families in Jordan, the rest is rubbish

82
00:14:16.660 --> 00:14:23.149
for him being established, can be reconciled with a migratory biography and transnational life.

83
00:14:24.400 --> 00:14:40.550
Now, you might think, okay, that's obvious. It's someone also belonging. For, like an ethnic minority, they have, they like who are often ascribed to being more mobile, that's true. But Ali acquired an established and established position as a migrant on the one hand.

84
00:14:40.690 --> 00:14:45.430
and on the other, such mobile biographies are normal in Amman.

85
00:14:47.210 --> 00:14:48.030
yeah.

86
00:14:48.790 --> 00:14:59.919
Aman is a comparatively new city. It was founded by a Circuitian refugees in 1878. They were soon joined by migrants from the neighboring countries of the Ottoman Empire.

87
00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:02.020
With independence

88
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:17.080
the monastic family became rulers who came from today's Saudi Arabia. From somewhere else they took great care to to diversify the emerging elite, and to not only have the local established there.

89
00:15:18.130 --> 00:15:27.740
The culture of migration in Amman is not limited to the elite. The majority of the city's inhabitants are formed by refugees and their descendants from Palestine.

90
00:15:28.030 --> 00:15:35.820
many of them migrated a second time to work in the Gulf countries. In the 1970 s. And eighties, or in other regions

91
00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:46.430
by 1,980, about 40% of all Jordanian workforce was abroad, and this is extended into the lower classes and moving to many. Yeah.

92
00:15:49.390 --> 00:16:00.110
Oh, okay. I thought it was the 5 min of the 3 min announcement, also, okay. And moving to many neighboring countries was easy, and did not even require registration.

93
00:16:01.130 --> 00:16:09.060
The culture of migration was not only always present in the interviews I conducted, but also in everyday conversations or within families.

94
00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:20.210
frequently migration and mobility, where central aspects and migration by biographies were recounted, extensively highlighting the outward orientation that is present in the city.

95
00:16:21.810 --> 00:16:30.400
To sum up. not everywhere where there is migration, develops a culture of migration leading to further migration and its normalization.

96
00:16:30.850 --> 00:16:48.380
The differing power relations between various groupings, legal discrimination and political structures, social histories and prevalent discourses, impact the negotiation and the possibilities of remaining or leaving, as well as the importance and symbolism of urban space.

97
00:16:49.850 --> 00:17:01.869
In Jerusalem life worlds are determined by the biographical and family historical presence in that space related to fear over the legal status and the credibility of one's claim to the city.

98
00:17:02.770 --> 00:17:15.910
This strengthened the culture of the old, established, as I called it. It's desirable to stay, to have always stayed, and to dream of staying. This also leads to the silencing of migrant family stories.

99
00:17:16.470 --> 00:17:27.129
The perspective of the Palestinian inhabitants is towards the inside. Migration. Experiences do not form the basis for further migration or for discourses about migration

100
00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:32.789
in amman intense migration was normal and expected.

101
00:17:32.930 --> 00:17:40.399
Migration formed the basis from which the inhabitants were interpreting the world in life histories and in discourses.

102
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:49.240
I would say the biographical research can. Now I've written something by hand that I have to

103
00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:54.900
can be a central gateway to study the interlocking of cities and migration trajectories

104
00:17:55.390 --> 00:18:06.689
in its inherently historical and perceptual manner. It can trace how culture of migration or non-migration build up in time and between different generations.

105
00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:07.800
Thank you.

106
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:32.850
Anna Schnitzer: Thank you very much, Johannes, for keeping the time in mind. And for you very interesting presentation, focusing on on on different coaches of of migration. We have now about 10 min for reaction discussion,

107
00:18:33.170 --> 00:18:34.450
Anna Schnitzer: remarks.

108
00:18:35.820 --> 00:18:42.389
Anna Schnitzer: and we try to organize it in this hybrid way, so Johannes will keep the room

109
00:18:42.540 --> 00:18:51.430
Anna Schnitzer:  inside it, I hope. Try to to to look at the chat. I'll try to do both.

110
00:18:53.600 --> 00:18:57.009
Okay, yeah, that's also fine.

111
00:19:04.330 --> 00:19:06.829
Are there any questions in the room?

112
00:19:07.890 --> 00:19:12.129
Not yet, not yet. or not any more?

113
00:19:19.810 --> 00:19:35.580
Anna Schnitzer:  maybe I can point out the point. which I find really interesting, and I would love to ask you to to Develop it a bit more, Johannes, the the last the the the main point you made in your

114
00:19:35.580 --> 00:19:58.490
Anna Schnitzer: in your conclusion that the coaches of migration defer in these 2 cities, and that the the fact that migration is normalized in one and is made invisible, and the others also influence the the, the, the the ongoing culture of of of migration. Could you just

115
00:19:59.580 --> 00:20:08.659
Anna Schnitzer: say some more words about that? Because it's I think it's really interesting, this this dependence. you, you point out.

116
00:20:09.230 --> 00:20:21.890
I mean this this that's going back to that theoretical point that goes back to this theory of cumulative causation. By and by messy, or he built it up on somebody else's work to saying that

117
00:20:22.270 --> 00:20:24.700
the experiences that migrants

118
00:20:24.870 --> 00:20:50.319
who who leave the community and transmitted there and becomes an example for those who stay back, that oftentimes like success, money, wise and so on, is brought back in symbolic terms, in the sense of like how people talk about it, but also the like the money and the resources are seen and kind of symbolize the the positive effects that migration might have.

119
00:20:50.320 --> 00:21:04.000
which leads more people to discuss about it, and it kind of trickles down and intensifies as a possibility in life and the possibility to enhance families.

120
00:21:04.100 --> 00:21:13.140
and therefore becomes a certain dynamic. I think that's at least how I understand the argumentation by messy, which is

121
00:21:13.350 --> 00:21:27.539
not only about the culture of migration, but also of the materialities of migration, that he talks also about the possibilities of acquiring land through money that comes back and so on. So it's kind of a a circle like like the causation

122
00:21:27.840 --> 00:21:41.090
build up cumulative causation. And in a man that's recognizable, for example, that after the migration of the Gulf of so many Palestinians who went there in the 19 seventies.

123
00:21:41.170 --> 00:21:58.469
It went along with the building up of completely new neighborhoods. It was connected to the establishment of a new middle class, or it was perceived as the establishment of a new middle class, something that was not really very known in Amman before.

124
00:21:58.590 --> 00:21:59.790
so

125
00:22:00.610 --> 00:22:13.189
it was the, to that extent, the advantages, the seeming advantages of migration became visible, not only like they were narrated about, but they became visible in space as architecture.

126
00:22:13.350 --> 00:22:14.900
yeah.

127
00:22:17.500 --> 00:22:34.340
yeah, it's a Johannes. Thank you very much for your presentation. I have a very technical question about how about the language, how you conduct an Arab in English and German and how it works the biographical interview with translation or

128
00:22:34.520 --> 00:22:38.450
we language, can you all of the 3? So

129
00:22:39.370 --> 00:22:56.840
either in English or German, if somebody would want to use that language directly, or I interview people in Arabic or with translation. That depends very much on the dialect of Arabic spoken in a certain place.

130
00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:06.030
I mean, you have seen that the project, like the the research, was embedded in larger research projects. So we were also working together with local field assistance.

131
00:23:06.450 --> 00:23:31.880
who would sometimes accompany me if I sense that I don't speak the language. And then it's a kind of a negotiation process. Also between the interviewee and the interpreter like, how big the portions are that you translate in so usually the interview we would start talking. And it's it's a question how much the interpreter can note without going crazy, and then translate bits by bit.

132
00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:40.390
But it works quite well sometimes, especially in Amman. I had the feeling that especially in, let's say.

133
00:23:40.630 --> 00:23:52.899
life stories that were for people themselves very hard. The translation, the period of translation of the bits and pieces provided to people with a certain time of thinking about what they want to talk about.

134
00:23:52.970 --> 00:23:55.179
and probably also formulated

135
00:23:55.580 --> 00:23:58.309
more in detail, more in depth.

136
00:23:58.590 --> 00:24:07.260
So it's not necessarily a bad thing, just because it's there that, like this intermediary stage, it can also be quite of a positive thing, too.

137
00:24:10.630 --> 00:24:24.319
Yeah. And thank you, Johannes. It was quite interesting that you told about. I'm just wondering what role class and

138
00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:43.489
and ethnicity and racialization play in this context, so I could imagine that there are differences, because this looked very yeah, homogeneous, that there are differences between different groups. And in Ricardo class and raisalization.

139
00:24:44.650 --> 00:24:46.949
it's complicated.

140
00:24:48.520 --> 00:24:52.390
For example, in Jerusalem. This label of the Jerusalemite family

141
00:24:52.420 --> 00:25:12.280
in the past was used mainly for elite families. There were like 3 4 names that people knew now. Many more families claim this label, which are not only elite families, but also like the families I introduced there. It's not real. It's a middle class family, it's not. It's neither like lower class nor upper class.

142
00:25:12.620 --> 00:25:24.610
So it used to be something which was very much oriented to class. Now it's something a label that you try to get hold of. because it's you need it.

143
00:25:25.060 --> 00:25:31.560
But in general, like the hepronite migrants, are also assigned poverty, so they are assigned

144
00:25:31.610 --> 00:25:41.420
a lower-class background, which by now is not necessarily like true. because they established themselves in certain areas of the city. Quite well.

145
00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:43.880
But that's still the label they carry

146
00:25:44.280 --> 00:25:48.880
 So it's ambivalent

147
00:25:49.290 --> 00:25:50.530
in

148
00:25:50.650 --> 00:26:03.600
Aman. It's of course there is a lot of things going on because it's It's a place that has been highly shaped by migration and flight from different diverse groups, diverse groupings, and so on.

149
00:26:03.620 --> 00:26:05.380
So

150
00:26:05.530 --> 00:26:11.349
and and this shape very much glass positioning, for example. for example.

151
00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:17.279
the business elite in Amman are Palestinians, because they are excluded from

152
00:26:18.110 --> 00:26:22.500
not completely excluded, but often excluded from state functions.

153
00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:35.760
which, on the other hand, made them prosper because they went abroad. They made money, they came back, they invested the money, and so on. So that was what was in the beginning a kind of an exclusion moment.

154
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:40.110
We came through migration, actually something that made them

155
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.009
rise up classwise. So yeah, it's a, it's not

156
00:26:46.250 --> 00:26:51.950
not completely clear. And it's also you have to look at the processes. to that

157
00:26:53.110 --> 00:27:22.970
 maybe I ask first, and I give you. I want to ask. Thank you very much for the talk. I have a question about the methodology, especially about your way of analyzes, because you framed the biographical stuffs, and you analyzes the biographical narrations to my specific question is, I find, very interesting, and which analyzes methodological approach you prefer?

158
00:27:23.630 --> 00:27:32.660
Yeah. So I'm using. And I come from. And I do use Gabrielos and Tart approach of biographical case. Reconstruction which works with the separation of

159
00:27:33.450 --> 00:27:48.430
it, told like a heuristic separation of the told life story and the experienced life history which, in separate depths of the analysis, goes into both and then tries to connect them again, to see

160
00:27:48.610 --> 00:28:00.080
in like the way in which a life story is presented in the present. determined by the situation in the present life situation. The members, like the

161
00:28:00.520 --> 00:28:02.900
and also the interview.

162
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:15.110
and, on the other hand, which tries to reconstruct the sequences of events, and then to compare in how far they differ, or in how far they align, and to explain the differences and ways

163
00:28:15.130 --> 00:28:16.770
these 2 happen.

164
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:20.659
And I recognized when I finished this presentation, that actually

165
00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:39.370
the bit on Jerusalem was more about the narration side and a bit in Amman was more on the experienced life history side. But I didn't get that out anymore. It didn't. I couldn't align it anymore. So it was actually on 2 and different levels, the case examples. But that's maybe also because you recognized it.

166
00:28:39.510 --> 00:28:55.750
Thank you very much. I have to. I have to sneak in because due to the time limit. There was a last question. But we we have a general question around in the end.

167
00:28:58.040 --> 00:29:08.649
So should we take the question now, or I'm not now asking that, not as a presenter, but as a co-chair here in the room.

168
00:29:09.130 --> 00:29:10.490
Yeah. My other self.

169
00:29:10.870 --> 00:29:20.399
Anna Schnitzer: Hello, my, yeah, I'm I'm not sure. Maybe short questions should answer. And then we go on to the next. I want time for the last presentation.

170
00:29:20.530 --> 00:29:34.310
I promise I'll be really quick. thank you so much for your presentation, Johannes. I have another methodological question, and that's on navigating power and positionality. Both you as a researcher.

171
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:50.119
presumably from a German background, but also navigating power and positionality. With the field assistance you worked with, and their own sort of personal experiences, and then collaborating together in the field. How did you sort of move through those various subject positions?

172
00:29:50.140 --> 00:30:16.049
it's not a short question. But so I'll just. I'll just like make some bullet points. So first of all, like, my professionality as a why German is definitely in the field relatively relevant, especially in Jerusalem, where you have to always deal with the political descriptions, to not only the personal but also the political descriptions. And that's stuff for the analysis and also for the continuous interrelationship with the interviews, which is often ongoing

173
00:30:16.290 --> 00:30:41.220
research assistants. We usually try to include them or in to yeah, take them to board for analysis. So not only having them as kind of technical assistance, but also working together with them in the terms of analysis, in terms of developing the sample and drawing the conclusions from the field. So it's not to relegate them to pure technical assistance, but to see them. As for

174
00:30:42.170 --> 00:30:44.360
members of the research teams.

175
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:56.599
I can talk about later. If you want. Okay, we have to go on to the next presentation.

176
00:30:57.330 --> 00:31:13.150
Anna Schnitzer: now is here, but I would propose that we continue with the next presentation already. present to find here with Stanley Weekly, and then on that you you will, we do will continue afterwards. Okay.

177
00:31:13.340 --> 00:31:38.010
Anna Schnitzer: okay, so I'm happy to present Daniel. We have. I I hope I I do pronounce your name in the right way. you have Phd. Candidate at the University College of Dublin and working mainly with mixed methods, research and interest in topics of cosmopolitanism, globalization, internationalization and migration.

178
00:31:38.410 --> 00:31:41.170
Anna Schnitzer: happy to hear your talk.

179
00:31:42.010 --> 00:31:55.330
Thank you very much, and thank you for the kind introduction. The name is Gigi. But Guigu is permissible. As it is the common reading, I have to say at this stage, you know, and especially coming from an Anglophone background these days

180
00:31:55.360 --> 00:32:01.539
you would be surprised about the interpretative freedom that people have when reading

181
00:32:01.620 --> 00:32:18.570
first off, I would like to extend my things to the first nation. People of this land that I am feeling greatly welcome to. Secondly, I would like to extend a very big thank you to the session organizers for having me here. It is a pleasure to present

182
00:32:18.590 --> 00:32:27.169
the initial findings of the first sample of my Phd. Research, which I've conducted with the Dublin sample over the last year.

183
00:32:28.020 --> 00:32:39.160
and I will hopefully get to the point showing you the first emerging biographic themes in form of a concept map from the Dublin sample.

184
00:32:39.800 --> 00:33:08.419
But before I get started I'd like to quickly give a little bit of a background about me as a person, as an individual. When I was about 20. I travel, as many folks do. I did my walkabouts, and believe it or not. I was here in Melbourne 12 years ago. I arrived with $20 in my pocket, and I don't know but re-analyzing this image where I smiled I can only imagine. It must have been because I discovered the Free trump system. Then.

185
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:12.919
I guess, coming from this background where I traveled.

186
00:33:12.930 --> 00:33:22.549
you can see the natural inclination, the impetus for researching migration, cosmopolitanism, and the related fields. So

187
00:33:22.600 --> 00:33:40.049
then, February 2022 happened, and I felt it is my obligation to do something as a student still again, this time with $50 in my pocket. So, not having much means to support people, I dedicated my research efforts

188
00:33:40.050 --> 00:33:57.110
to understanding in this particular case people that host Ukrainians or hosted Ukrainians as well in Dublin, one of the most competitive housing markets in Europe, as well as Munich, which I identified to be on pi and demographic

189
00:33:57.550 --> 00:34:00.160
in demographic. details.

190
00:34:01.490 --> 00:34:05.770
So now, who are these hosts that I wanted to find?

191
00:34:05.990 --> 00:34:21.889
Well, first of, I had to kind of clarify a question before I went into the field, which was, I would like to analyze or identify biographic elements that relate to cosmopolitanism and are reflected in these hosts, biographies

192
00:34:22.060 --> 00:34:39.279
and ultimately would like to move to a comparative study between the different samples of Dublin and Munich, to then, in the third stage, conduct the qualitative comparative analysis, and finally move into a fuzzy set analysis, which I'll explain in a moment.

193
00:34:39.399 --> 00:34:45.510
As indicated, the Dublin sample has been concluded. It was great fun, but also very tiring

194
00:34:45.729 --> 00:34:55.849
to further elaborate my stream of thoughts that emerged from there. I kind of took current literature on cosmopolitanism

195
00:34:56.290 --> 00:35:13.149
at my side, which some of you might be familiar with the material constraints is something that was inspired by Martin Osbaum's work around Cosmopolitanism, especially her later work on the Beefocation of the Duty of aid and material constraints of helping in cosmopolitan times.

196
00:35:13.359 --> 00:35:28.759
Similarly, the European Cos. More political cultural values is something that was greatly inspired by the works of Ben Habib and her contemporaries, that, looking into individual and national sovereignty in light of growing globalization.

197
00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:32.160
and the last 2 elements then

198
00:35:32.350 --> 00:35:41.530
more related into the empirical fields of cosmopolitanism, and often identified as banal or

199
00:35:41.580 --> 00:35:46.149
daily cosmopolitanism or everyday cosmopolitanism.

200
00:35:46.319 --> 00:36:03.700
I should refer to it here now as empirical cosmopolitanism as it's investigated by Gerhardilandi, Slatkos Creebis, for example, some Australian scholars which are here like Ian Woodward and Lastly, I would like to, much as

201
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:18.989
my predecessor, who presented just now come to a conclusion that indicates a causality, and therefore I will use the theoretical methods of Reagan fuzzy set analysis and set theories

202
00:36:20.010 --> 00:36:47.109
to quickly reiterate the research objective and the design of my Phd. Thesis. It was to conduct 60 biographic interviews with hosts 30 that have been already conducted in Dublin, and 30 that will be conducted in Munich, starting in October, when I resume my visiting scholarship at the Lmu, to then hopefully create themes that reflect these cosmopolitan outlooks, practices, and identities that can be used for a cross country comparison.

203
00:36:48.490 --> 00:36:52.400
So this is just a quick visualization of

204
00:36:52.620 --> 00:36:54.220
the working process.

205
00:36:54.400 --> 00:37:11.730
and, as I then indicated, I will move forward from initially analyzing themes that emerged from these cases into a classification process which is very theoretical. But I'm more than happy to discuss this at length with anybody who is interested afterwards

206
00:37:12.100 --> 00:37:17.960
and hopefully, we come to a somewhat conclusive understanding of

207
00:37:18.520 --> 00:37:25.710
sufficient conditions that are present in these biographies, as well as necessary conditions that are

208
00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:32.169
visible Indies biographies, and relate to the hosting practice at hand

209
00:37:33.040 --> 00:37:35.280
quickly to state the limitations.

210
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:55.339
So a Fuzzy said, is not a statistical calculation. So I want to throw that out of the window for everybody who is concerned about data reduction of these rich biographic interviews. It is more a way of numerically quantifying elements that can be observed in quantity and qualitative work.

211
00:37:55.460 --> 00:37:58.700
and to also

212
00:37:59.030 --> 00:38:13.699
mitigate the degree of data reduction that might occur, I will engage in 2 practices, which is one, a ground that I'm currently engaging with, and then, at the last stage of the work I will do the fossilification of the themes.

213
00:38:14.150 --> 00:38:31.709
So the sampling itself. I reached out to my sample participants, basically in 3 types, or through 3 ways, which one being me as a volunteer in an English course for Ukrainians in Dublin, where I was in the fortunate position to

214
00:38:32.030 --> 00:38:51.200
initiate conversations with the hosts of these people as well. Secondly, through online media, social media, Facebook groups for people hosting in Dublin, which are very, very vocal and prolific in their interaction, and lastly, through a snowball sampling that emerged through

215
00:38:51.330 --> 00:38:54.399
the engagement with my participants.

216
00:38:55.460 --> 00:39:15.750
Interestingly enough, Looking at the sample, we can see that there is somewhat of a age, creation of 60 year 61 years of age, being the mean age of my sample, participants with one extreme outlier, a lady who was 22 years old, and a student herself.

217
00:39:16.870 --> 00:39:27.669
as well as we can see the the gender creation or the skew in gender here. But since this is not to be a generalizable study. This is at this stage of no concern

218
00:39:29.580 --> 00:39:31.739
now coming to the heart of

219
00:39:31.790 --> 00:39:38.110
the work as of a current stage. These are the emerged emerging team themes of

220
00:39:38.170 --> 00:39:49.989
these biographic interviews that I have mapped out here, and I hope to further elaborate in the successive steps. Now, where I will take a range of cases

221
00:39:50.020 --> 00:39:53.890
to go into an in-depth analysis of these cases.

222
00:39:53.930 --> 00:40:05.799
I should have stated that for my data, collection and analysis analysis method, I utilized elements of Tom Wangra's biographic narrative interpretive methods, which

223
00:40:05.850 --> 00:40:20.309
allows for a certain degree of comparability, since it utilizes what he refers to as a squin that's the idea of having a sentence that induces a narrative. This sentence will be always the same, regardless of

224
00:40:20.450 --> 00:40:27.910
the participant or the interviewee to ensure replicability as well as a degree of

225
00:40:28.010 --> 00:40:35.099
comparability. And here you see the first emerging themes that

226
00:40:35.250 --> 00:41:00.430
I analyzed basically coming out of these 30 interviews utilizing Brown and Clark Keys qualitative methods of 6 steps of generating qualitative teams which I hope in next step of the work. Through this in-depth case, reconstruction of 5 of the cases hopefully very diverse, a range of cases

227
00:41:00.490 --> 00:41:02.370
to elaborate

228
00:41:02.570 --> 00:41:14.300
not only on the themes themselves, but on their connections, as that's usually where the crooks of the metal lies. It's the beauty of these very complex connections between the individual themes.

229
00:41:15.770 --> 00:41:20.600
And so now we'll zoom in to some of them and quickly. Let some of the participants

230
00:41:20.650 --> 00:41:34.449
speak for themselves. Now in the context of Ireland my participants spoke about political values, and here a female participant, 51 years old, married, and a primary school teacher said.

231
00:41:34.780 --> 00:41:40.550
and then my mother, because she was so heavily involved in like kicking off traces.

232
00:41:40.610 --> 00:41:43.320
she refers to her mother

233
00:41:43.510 --> 00:41:51.410
trying to turn over a new leaf in regards to her own mother. So her grandmother and her legacy

234
00:41:51.420 --> 00:42:07.779
and Socialist policies, a politics of the late sixties, and the early seventies never got married. Her parents never got married, so she and my father lived together, but wearing married kind of in protest. Hetty bourgeoisie marriage.

235
00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:08.980
She laughs.

236
00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:31.049
And then my father died very unexpectedly in an accident, very, very young, so I was only one at a time, and there was that thing, my grandmother, where it wasn't a Norman island in the early seventies for very respectable, very middle class parents to support their children in an unmarried pregnancy situation, and my grandmother welcomed us back home with open arms.

237
00:42:31.080 --> 00:42:36.740
So that's kind of that background. Yeah, I guess it kind of does drop off, and

238
00:42:37.020 --> 00:42:39.939
it creates a sense of responsibility as well.

239
00:42:42.980 --> 00:42:58.669
Now the Christian values or the Christian religious values which are strongly anchored in Irish society, but have been slowly but surely disintegrating in the last decade in what some scholars refer to as

240
00:42:58.680 --> 00:43:06.570
a sense of fate or belief without belong, people still practicing their own religious beliefs, but outside of

241
00:43:06.660 --> 00:43:11.160
congregations and spiritual settings, like churches.

242
00:43:12.180 --> 00:43:22.770
Here a female participant, 62 years old, married and retired, iterated. The biggest thing that influenced my life is a Christian belief. And so Christ

243
00:43:22.860 --> 00:43:24.790
is then center of my life

244
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.350
is a relationship, a personal relationship with God.

245
00:43:28.450 --> 00:43:32.610
And the more I get to know him, the more I see that what it is in his heart.

246
00:43:32.640 --> 00:43:46.240
and as a follower of him to reflect, and Jesus always went out to the margins, and welcomed welcome in this sense very much like her own welcoming of the cosmopolitan other, the Ukrainian. In her home.

247
00:43:47.060 --> 00:43:56.290
The hospitality was a huge thing in his life. I see that hospitality is not just can be giving someone a roof or meal. Actually.

248
00:43:56.340 --> 00:44:05.760
his kind of hospitality was so much more. It was opening the heart to someone. So I realized I could trick the tick, the box, and just give someone a roof.

249
00:44:05.810 --> 00:44:10.240
But there was more. There's more to it. That is an opening of the heart.

250
00:44:10.290 --> 00:44:15.640
So it's giving yourself. It's making yourself available to a person as well.

251
00:44:16.200 --> 00:44:18.049
Anna Schnitzer: 3 min left onion.

252
00:44:18.510 --> 00:44:19.819
Thank you very much

253
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:30.059
so national identity. Another big theme in the Irish context as the Irish St. Or stood opposing for centuries against British occupations.

254
00:44:30.250 --> 00:44:36.820
and are currently still engaged in a process of national identity formation, an ongoing process.

255
00:44:37.050 --> 00:44:57.559
So this participant, he iterated his experience through the St. Patrick's Day, a very common festivity celebrated all over the world where he says so when St. Patrick Day comes around, you just realize, yeah, this Ireland is kind of a little special country. What other country of 5 million people has.

256
00:44:57.650 --> 00:45:22.150
or a worldwide celebration wherever it is going. These, the Irish, are really great people. There's no other country in the world that has it. Because I mean having lived in Chile, there's a small Irish community we obviously keep in contact with each other. And so you realize the effect of it. And then seeing something like that, certainly the first part of the video showed me the St. Patrick's Day Government advertisement video.

257
00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:29.980
It's very typical around St. Patrick's Day. Aren't we wonderful? Don't we contribute to the good we do. So that's a huge impact.

258
00:45:31.190 --> 00:45:41.680
So now I'll speed up. But this life stage was one that I did not anticipate to find. As I set out with all my cosmopolitan theory in the backdrop.

259
00:45:41.700 --> 00:45:43.329
the main thing

260
00:45:43.410 --> 00:45:52.369
I admire him here. My participant talks about his father for us that he had an aunt who ran an orphanage very close to where I live.

261
00:45:52.370 --> 00:46:10.799
and it wasn't amazing. It was a French order of nuns, and what they did was to look after young women so typically orphans. But these French nuns, first of all, they were standard clothes. This is like 50, 60 years ago, as opposed to a uniform that would frighten children, and they believed in helping these girls educate themselves.

262
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:26.790
My father was the chairman of it, and as a fundraiser, so I would have been very impressed with him. There was an excellent committee and a race. A lot of money which had practical help, so impressed me for having done that, and had for following in his footsteps of his uncle, would have been the brother of.

263
00:46:26.790 --> 00:46:47.700
They had none who succeeded him as a chairperson. So that was definitely the most formative thing. And that's so such a long time ago, because I'm 68 now I was 16 at the time, and I would say I was just saying to my wife recently that the Ukrainian crisis made a link for me with that experience, because next time I could make a difference, it took until I was 68.

264
00:46:48.600 --> 00:47:03.040
So now, for the immune example. I'll quickly just gloss over this, but I will have to reiterate some of my initial hypotheses working around the interviews and my expected findings, and lastly, to conclude and link it to the call of this session.

265
00:47:03.150 --> 00:47:08.280
What I can see at this initial glance of the biographies

266
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:13.859
is that what you would refer to as the socialization or the habiters

267
00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:38.710
that has formed some of these individuals outlook on the other, welcoming and helping, as well as a legacy effect, which I also did not anticipate at this stage that is more than just a formation of the individual legacy seen in the family. But in the larger context the Irish legacy of being a suppressed nation as well as being impoverished for a long time during the boom, and then the initial bus period

268
00:47:38.770 --> 00:48:03.479
that had a knock on effect on to these lives that we are still experiencing today. And lastly, therefore, the shared sense of the national identity as the Irish feeling still in this opposition to the British, and seeing similar in the opposition of the Ukrainian to the Russian at the moment that concludes my work at this stage. Thank you very much for your attention.

269
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:32.460
Yeah, thank you, Daniel, for your presentation. We we try to continue this hybrid mode. I can't see if there are any questions in there. Yes, I have one question. Yes, and thank you, Daniel. I have one. Just one question about your concept of cosmopolitanism. Could you think to explain a little bit, not only about the the concept, but how you deal with this concept

270
00:48:32.510 --> 00:48:39.760
is that descriptive concept that you, as I resulted, that you describe this behavior of this

271
00:48:39.910 --> 00:48:51.640
mindset of these people, or is sufficient to be a host to be characterized as a cosmopolitan orientation. Yeah, thank you very much. And it's a great question to be honest, because

272
00:48:51.640 --> 00:49:10.410
I have to say I was a bit nervous about being too restrictive in the sense of applying a firm or a tight concept of cosmopolitanism, especially as something as a concept so heavily contested as cosmopolitanism. Right? So what I did in my work is basically stepping towards

273
00:49:10.470 --> 00:49:14.770
this with the assumption that people hosting others

274
00:49:15.540 --> 00:49:30.409
are inherently or have inherent cosmopolitan trades as cosmopolitanism as a philosophy in the Western world has an underlying current of openness, so I see it as the openness to others, which is kind of

275
00:49:31.060 --> 00:49:38.889
in the sample achieved by the fact that people opened their doors to others. I hope that clarifies the question.

276
00:49:39.870 --> 00:49:57.869
I know it is a bit vague, but I had to start with the assumption that people who are hosting people that they never even hear about, that they don't speak the language of. You know there must be some sense of inherent cosmopolitan solidarity. And I know that is the limiting factor when looking at the the biographies.

277
00:49:57.970 --> 00:50:11.069
 but it also shows that there is something about it, because these people, in fact, showed traces of it. So far, so openness, I would say, that's how I categorize it. Openness towards others.

278
00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:12.130
Yeah.

279
00:50:13.210 --> 00:50:15.190
I hope I made it clear.

280
00:50:15.500 --> 00:50:20.730
This is more on all right consumption of concept, not the network. Yet.

281
00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:35.420
Yeah, it is an assumption that's true. It is an assumption which is, I believe, in my training. It was Ok to have initial assumptions and hypotheses that can be rejected at a given stage, or.

282
00:50:35.580 --> 00:50:42.870
you know, changed when data is due, and showing that in fact, things are not as you believe them to be.

283
00:50:43.080 --> 00:50:46.509
Yeah. perfect. Thank you very much.

284
00:50:47.560 --> 00:51:09.410
Anna Schnitzer: Just one remark from the to that. You have to use the microphone. Otherwise we wouldn't be a for you. Then it's okay. But if there are questions in the in the in the round, and you. It would be nice if you could use the microphone. Otherwise we can't understand. And if there are questions from the virtual participants. Just raise your hand.

285
00:51:11.330 --> 00:51:32.259
okay, I try to be as low as I can. I was wondering if you consider the de facto of time in your research, because living in Germany, I can remember when they was started to host the Ukrainian family was such a morally loaded sacrifice, step and doing. But as

286
00:51:32.540 --> 00:51:48.949
war prolonged there, there are some far buzz around that talks about why we are in this, and it shouldn't be us, and as especially as the cost of living rises. So I was wondering when you did your work

287
00:51:48.950 --> 00:52:11.750
in Berlin in a Dublin there was like, I think, more solidarity with the Ukrainians. But now, when you move to Germany, there might be less solidarity, and as such it might sort of impact your your your findings. So I was wondering how you would navigate this.

288
00:52:12.330 --> 00:52:17.809
Thank you very much. That's a very good question that I also have pondered over many sleepless nights.

289
00:52:17.860 --> 00:52:23.649
and you certainly seeing it right. It is true that as we move on

290
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:31.569
in time the the sentiment changes, and it certainly has changed in Dublin already, I can assure you.

291
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:32.610
just

292
00:52:32.990 --> 00:52:45.019
as an as a strange artifact of what occurred during some of these research interviews. When I started to interview with the Squin, which I have written down here.

293
00:52:45.060 --> 00:52:50.089
I could quickly tell you. It's basically, it says, please tell me

294
00:52:50.500 --> 00:53:01.739
the story of a chosen aspect of your life before you hosted someone. All the experiences and events which were important for you. Start wherever you like, please take the time you need.

295
00:53:01.870 --> 00:53:14.339
So it would already kind of suggest that the participants. The interview is, tell me, something rather biographical over an earlier part of their life, but

296
00:53:14.540 --> 00:53:23.270
to a large extent people started with. So I'm hosting a Ukrainian, and I feel about it like this, and they they go on for 20 to 30 min

297
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:32.100
sharing their intense feelings. Since this is such a current event in their lives, and that's why I know it's not always positive. In fact, it is rather

298
00:53:32.370 --> 00:53:35.219
ambivalent to an extent. And

299
00:53:35.390 --> 00:53:43.869
but to come back to the question of how do I make sense of that? When I look at these biographies. I separate between these elements, because

300
00:53:44.040 --> 00:53:57.169
I assume that if I sit down with my interview with, and I read the Squin, and they tell me about some of them. Tell me about their feelings towards hosting or about hosting their hosts, the people or not, and then about their lives.

301
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:14.540
I see them as they're part of the same biography as this is a more current or recent event. But I don't think. And this may be again an assumption that also is driven by some of the theoretical underpinnings of some biographic theories, that

302
00:54:14.610 --> 00:54:23.169
biographic elements that are narrated and that certainly are reiterated in a conversation with me.

303
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:30.000
create this Arizona, this Gestalt, this biographic story that somebody tells

304
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:35.319
they might not vastly change. Is that the case?

305
00:54:35.390 --> 00:54:42.450
I will have to consolidate some of the theory on that, because with the work I'm doing, there is hardly a way of

306
00:54:42.580 --> 00:54:53.449
knowing that if they would have changed over time, or if the elements remain quintessentially same or similar, regardless of their feeling towards hosting or the other.

307
00:54:53.770 --> 00:54:56.319
Thank you very much. It's a good question, indeed.

308
00:54:57.580 --> 00:54:58.420
Yeah.

309
00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:18.120
yeah, thank you so much for your talk. It was really, really interesting. the question. I have kind of links up to the previous question about cosmopolitanism, but I'm interested in whether anyone in your sample had previous experience of hosting refugee or migrant groups, or whether that came up at all in the biographical interviews.

310
00:55:18.120 --> 00:55:32.119
Yeah, it did. And thank you for your question. because now I can actually roll back to something. I skipped quickly to make do with time. Yes, indeed. As I alluded to this

311
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:47.019
to this legacy effect on a Meso level where the Irish economy in the seventies was buckling what they called the bus period, where people couldn't keep up with their mortgages of homes and houses. They had

312
00:55:47.170 --> 00:56:04.950
many of my participants who are now in their sixties, in fact, had to make ends meet by hosting students, international students, much like some of us that lived with these families. And so in I would now ballpark the number around 70% of the interviews they have shared with me

313
00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:11.730
that they have, in fact, hosted students from all walks of life and different countries and nationalities. Yeah.

314
00:56:12.350 --> 00:56:19.620
yeah, I hope that answers the question. So there was experience, but there was less of a shared experience around

315
00:56:20.450 --> 00:56:21.590
around.

316
00:56:21.630 --> 00:56:40.139
Let's say, Ngo, work with others, you know charitable work with others, but more economically driven and interesting enough when I started thinking of cosmopolitanism, I wanted to criticize this notion of an elite concept that can only be achieved by frequent flyers, by people who have

317
00:56:40.310 --> 00:56:55.070
material affluence, and wealth by saying No, it happens on a day-to-day base as well, and sometimes it happens, even through wealth, deprivation, or impoverishment, because people are pushed to open themselves up to other forms of

318
00:56:55.250 --> 00:57:07.489
exchange capital, you know, social capital, and all of these type of network capitals which, in fact link up with opening towards the other end. Hence the largest, probably, or the most

319
00:57:07.700 --> 00:57:13.610
flimsy term of cosmopolitanism. Openness to the other. Yeah, I hope that answers to your question.

320
00:57:13.690 --> 00:57:24.770
Anna Schnitzer: We have one last online question. And I, I would ask a short question and so short answer to to be able to continue after what's on it?

321
00:57:25.370 --> 00:57:46.820
arne worm (he/him): Actually a question. Here, too, we have to. I I I do to time. I have to be a bit strict, because otherwise the last presentation wouldn't be able to to have the the whole time span. Okay? So one online question from an, and then maybe you can continue in the falls afterwards the discussion.

322
00:57:46.920 --> 00:58:15.080
arne worm (he/him): yeah, thank you so much. for your talk, and quickly say something about and how far you we construct what are people's construction about the other. You know what I mean. So up to people, what are typical constructions of the other? They are helping, you know. Do they have, like all they have people like us. We have to help them, or they all they have these and that experiences. So to analyze the construction of the other a bit more. How far does it

323
00:58:15.080 --> 00:58:17.249
arne worm (he/him): play a role in your research? Thank you.

324
00:58:17.510 --> 00:58:45.659
Yeah, thank you very much. for this great question. And it is an essential part of the work as well. So at this stage I have not engaged in a in-depth case reconstruction. Allah, Tom Wangraph's biographic, narrative interpretive method. But in some cases it indeed already came out of some of these snippets that I alluded to earlier, where people have to first vent their experience, and here it becomes

325
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:52.539
particularly salient. I would say that people were under the impression that

326
00:58:53.020 --> 00:58:55.799
these Ukrainians would arrive with

327
00:58:55.960 --> 00:59:08.470
to Aldi bags in front of their doors, and only the clothes on their bodies. So in those cases, and interestingly enough, those are also the cases where a sort of discontent well voice.

328
00:59:08.520 --> 00:59:32.259
The expectations did not meet, because many of these others are not necessarily impoverished. Yes, they have fled horrible, unspeakable situations to some regards, but they can at some degree continue doing their professions online, or resettling into new environments, thanks to their hosts, who often are these gatekeepers and social networks.

329
00:59:32.390 --> 00:59:38.680
So I think yes, the other is in those cases that speak about them

330
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:45.769
with a form of disenfranchisement, reconstruct or construct it through a faulty sense of

331
00:59:47.180 --> 00:59:50.279
yeah of

332
00:59:51.520 --> 00:59:54.370
True, I'm missing this one where it's sorry.

333
00:59:56.140 --> 01:00:23.339
anyway. Yes, there is an assumption that the others in that regard are a particular form of refugee, as seen or depicted by the news as so often the media. That's also what people allude to when they say, and I didn't expect somebody to arrive here with their pets and their jobs, and a wardrobe and a suitcase. So yeah, that also happens. And I hope that answers partly your question.

334
01:00:24.220 --> 01:00:44.270
Anna Schnitzer: Thank you so much down here for your presentation, and you all for the questions and and the discussion. I want to invite him in to continue with her presentation. We now switch to the to a presentation in the in the online mode.

335
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:46.910
Anna Schnitzer: I hope it works.

336
01:00:49.220 --> 01:00:52.410
Ingrid Bosseldal:  do you hear me?

337
01:00:52.650 --> 01:00:54.330
Anna Schnitzer: Yeah.

338
01:00:54.840 --> 01:01:05.070
Ingrid Bosseldal: yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I I'm not going to share any Powerpoint, or I will just speak. I hope that's fine.

339
01:01:06.080 --> 01:01:13.889
Ingrid Bosseldal: Hmm, thank you for let me do this presentation and thank you for organizing this

340
01:01:14.030 --> 01:01:16.240
Ingrid Bosseldal: very interesting session.

341
01:01:26.450 --> 01:01:30.470
Ingrid Bosseldal: I can say something about myself from the beginning.

342
01:01:30.630 --> 01:01:33.889
Ingrid Bosseldal: My name is sorry

343
01:01:35.620 --> 01:02:05.779
Anna Schnitzer: I could briefly introduce you it. It went just too quickly. So David is the senior lecture in educational sciences at University in Sweden, and her research interests a social interaction, educational relations, human animal studies and learning, theories and critical adoption studies, and she will talk to us From a project and the title of her of her presentation is neither

344
01:02:05.780 --> 01:02:12.999
American. No Chinese, Swedish and American adoptes reflect on their lack of belonging so

345
01:02:13.090 --> 01:02:14.599
Anna Schnitzer: nice to have you here.

346
01:02:14.710 --> 01:02:26.369
Ingrid Bosseldal: Hmm! Thank you I can. I can conclude with that. I'm also the mother of 2 daughters from China, and maybe that can be something good to know.

347
01:02:27.080 --> 01:02:37.890
Ingrid Bosseldal:  I'm I'm interested in the stories about transnational adoption. These stories are contradictory and situated.

348
01:02:37.990 --> 01:02:41.549
Ingrid Bosseldal: They are filled with love, concern, and anger.

349
01:02:41.580 --> 01:02:45.579
Ingrid Bosseldal: They are heavily dependent on whose perspective they tell.

350
01:02:47.560 --> 01:03:00.180
Ingrid Bosseldal: being adopted, often means crossing cultural and geographical boundaries and challenging certain categories. That of T belongs to a neighborhood where some people question. Her right to be

351
01:03:00.290 --> 01:03:05.860
Ingrid Bosseldal: that of T belongs to the family, despite non biological relation.

352
01:03:06.390 --> 01:03:11.510
Ingrid Bosseldal: and the other T belongs to a nation, despite being born somewhere else

353
01:03:11.580 --> 01:03:20.530
Ingrid Bosseldal: on top of this money out of this testify about how their deviant complexion makes it makes it impossible to assimilate.

354
01:03:21.170 --> 01:03:32.680
Ingrid Bosseldal: It doesn't seem to matter that they have lived in a particular place since they were infants, and do not know about anything else, or remember anything else.

355
01:03:33.130 --> 01:03:36.999
Ingrid Bosseldal: People will still ask them where they come from for real.

356
01:03:37.120 --> 01:03:54.199
Ingrid Bosseldal: and they will still have to cope with this lack of belonging, which for some of them leads to an intensified desire to know more about their history and origin, both ethnic and genetic, and to define themselves in new ways.

357
01:03:56.300 --> 01:04:06.039
Ingrid Bosseldal: To share stories about transnational adoption, is listening to stories of abandonment, of homelessness, of border crossing and frameworking.

358
01:04:06.100 --> 01:04:17.380
Ingrid Bosseldal: It is listening to stories in the post, colonial shadows about corruption, legal adoption, and criminal acts, as well as of longing, belonging and non belonging.

359
01:04:20.140 --> 01:04:34.619
Ingrid Bosseldal: You can't tell a story without positioning yourself as the storyteller. You see a chain of events from a certain position. According to Donna Harway, vision is always a question of the power to see.

360
01:04:34.790 --> 01:04:36.130
Ingrid Bosseldal: I agree.

361
01:04:36.720 --> 01:04:43.550
Ingrid Bosseldal: but vision has also to do with what aspects of the phenomenon the person with power to see.

362
01:04:44.180 --> 01:04:56.609
Ingrid Bosseldal: It is like the optical illusions where you either see an old woman or a young woman, either a duck or a rabbit, either a base or 2 profiles

363
01:04:56.620 --> 01:04:59.050
Ingrid Bosseldal: you may have the power to see.

364
01:04:59.220 --> 01:05:02.660
Ingrid Bosseldal: but you may also have the power to choose what you see

365
01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:19.580
Ingrid Bosseldal: in his book about sociological research and phenomenon. The Swedish sociologists you on, as Blunt tells the story about 2 very different interpretations of the same matrilineal society in the Trojan Islands.

366
01:05:20.710 --> 01:05:27.530
Ingrid Bosseldal: According to the social anthropologist, pro bronze love Malinowski. Some family relations

367
01:05:27.560 --> 01:05:37.880
Ingrid Bosseldal: at the program islands can be understood as an inverted version of Freud's theory of the Olympus complex. Instead of a son who wants to kill his father

368
01:05:38.160 --> 01:05:41.660
Ingrid Bosseldal: and marry his mother, as in the

369
01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:50.879
Ingrid Bosseldal: Europe. The son at the Metropolitan Islands wants to kill his ankle on the mother's side and marry his sister.

370
01:05:51.560 --> 01:06:11.190
Ingrid Bosseldal: And this theory later was criticized by the psycho. And I'll psychoanalyst Ernest Jones, who meant that the Olympics complex must be possible to find also in the program the islands, and therefore came up with an alternative answer to the harmonious relationship between sons and fathers.

371
01:06:11.640 --> 01:06:19.540
Ingrid Bosseldal: According to Jones, it had to do with repressed feelings in relation to the fathers, and projected feelings in relation to

372
01:06:20.810 --> 01:06:26.110
Ingrid Bosseldal: Malinowski, answered to this with a big yes, this is plausible

373
01:06:29.830 --> 01:06:43.419
Ingrid Bosseldal: to us. Bloom. This was strange. How come that Malinovsky first argues for a theory about how different the probabilities are from the Europeans, and then immediately agrees when Jones claims the opposite.

374
01:06:44.430 --> 01:06:54.319
Ingrid Bosseldal: Aspirin's answer to this contradiction has to do with aspects. Whatmarineovsky says to Jones, according to asplant is that it is possible to see in both ways.

375
01:06:54.430 --> 01:07:01.099
Ingrid Bosseldal: You can see this family relations. I still see them. and you can see them as

376
01:07:01.710 --> 01:07:09.529
Ingrid Bosseldal: it's like the optical illusions. What you see depends on what you discern, and even on what you choose to distinguish

377
01:07:11.830 --> 01:07:33.199
Ingrid Bosseldal: as plans. Writings about Marlin of skin. Jones have come to my mind time and again, during my interpretation of the different narratives, Swedish and American adaptive presents while trying to tell their life stories, and simultaneously cope with transnational and trans racial adoption as a personal and political phenomenon.

378
01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:47.330
Ingrid Bosseldal: In this presentation I try to draw from an ongoing, maybe never ending study of narratives of 3 and translation adoption with a particular focus on adaptes like stories.

379
01:07:47.350 --> 01:07:58.110
Ingrid Bosseldal: In the analysis, I have focused on this courses of transnational adoption and adapt his own stories about longing, belonging and non belonging the presentation.

380
01:07:58.730 --> 01:08:11.499
Ingrid Bosseldal: It's based on a qualitative text analysis of autobiographical novels and documentaries, newspaper reports about the adoption business and interviews with 2 groups of adoptes with a Chinese platform.

381
01:08:12.010 --> 01:08:27.999
Ingrid Bosseldal: the qualitative text analysis, and divided into a narrative analysis of the text material, including the transcribed interviews and the discursive analysis of the narratives, to gain an understanding of the relation between discourses and narratives.

382
01:08:29.410 --> 01:08:35.980
Ingrid Bosseldal: This is not completed. So what I present today is some preliminary findings, no reflections.

383
01:08:37.940 --> 01:08:45.060
Ingrid Bosseldal: These courses are dependent on power, license, and set limits on what is possible to think or distinguish

384
01:08:45.570 --> 01:08:52.300
Ingrid Bosseldal: what is possible to say about transnational adoption, what is unthinkable, what is normal and what is abnormal

385
01:08:53.920 --> 01:09:07.419
Ingrid Bosseldal: narratives focuses on how people interpret, interpret and understand their lives, and how they narratively construct live stories, to organize their interpretations in meaningful ways.

386
01:09:07.630 --> 01:09:16.170
Ingrid Bosseldal: Narratives gained meanings and discourses. But these courses can also be too narrow to accommodate different experiences.

387
01:09:16.490 --> 01:09:20.220
Ingrid Bosseldal: In the latter case experiences can be silenced

388
01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:34.760
Ingrid Bosseldal: as long as they are children. Adaptees are represented and spoken for by someone else. When they grow up, they start speaking for themselves.

389
01:09:35.140 --> 01:09:41.749
Ingrid Bosseldal: The research on adoptive children. You find a lot of researches that, like me also are adopted

390
01:09:42.040 --> 01:09:52.499
Ingrid Bosseldal: parents. Of course, we vision, the adoption from a particular position, we have a certain power to see and to justify what, from our perspective.

391
01:09:53.010 --> 01:10:07.520
Ingrid Bosseldal: it's the most important event in our lives. Most of us, I suppose, want to best for our children. Perhaps we therefore have a tendency to overlook problematic issues in that option. Adopt the business

392
01:10:09.470 --> 01:10:24.620
Ingrid Bosseldal: during the last, say, 2 decades in Sweden. harsh criticism has been directed to the different national actors involved in transnational adoption. The politicians, the authorities, and the authorized adoption. Organizations.

393
01:10:25.540 --> 01:10:38.980
Ingrid Bosseldal: while growing up more and more adoptes, have been traveling back to their countries on the searching for their roots, and some of them have realized that they have been following a chain of fake and false documents and stories.

394
01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:49.060
Ingrid Bosseldal: According to international law and declaration, the best interest of the child and the child's right is supposed to be the starting point for all intercountry adoption.

395
01:10:49.450 --> 01:11:07.890
Ingrid Bosseldal: However, it has recently been severely questioned, not least by this disclosure about corruption and trafficking in the adoption business, but also by the adaptive testimonials about growing up in racist. And, as in the Swedish case, also talibline societies.

396
01:11:09.780 --> 01:11:12.379
Ingrid Bosseldal: When 3 Swedish journalists.

397
01:11:12.460 --> 01:11:20.510
Ingrid Bosseldal: and Alexander Mahmoud got the Swedish ground price for journalists 2,021

398
01:11:20.590 --> 01:11:24.530
Ingrid Bosseldal: for their articles about corruption and criminal acts in the adoption.

399
01:11:24.870 --> 01:11:28.319
Ingrid Bosseldal: a world the reward motivation. Read.

400
01:11:29.240 --> 01:11:33.729
Ingrid Bosseldal: now, we can't go on. Go on with shut eyes.

401
01:11:33.870 --> 01:11:44.350
Ingrid Bosseldal: We know the truth about the systematic theft of children, and we know that it continued in Sweden in the name of godness.

402
01:11:46.170 --> 01:12:06.259
Ingrid Bosseldal:  Well, transnational adoption to go in in the sixties and peaks in the seventies it was discursively made up as a rescue operation by the adoption child was rescued from poverty and marginalization and offered a new start and a new family in a new world.

403
01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:08.950
Ingrid Bosseldal: and when in Sweden, it was said.

404
01:12:09.790 --> 01:12:14.819
Ingrid Bosseldal: the adopted child was a Swedish as anybody. Yet

405
01:12:15.780 --> 01:12:26.059
Ingrid Bosseldal: soon the color blindness of the pioneers options to Sweden was expanded. We don't the interest of the out of this background as an enrichment.

406
01:12:26.290 --> 01:12:33.980
Ingrid Bosseldal: The adaptees should be happy about the double belongings grown up in one context and with its roots in another.

407
01:12:34.310 --> 01:12:51.840
Ingrid Bosseldal: In the 19 eighties the adoptive parents were encouraged to show great interest in their children's background, pick them up in their account, instead of at national airports in Sweden, and in as many ways as possible, help their children to connect the new life with their own.

408
01:12:52.670 --> 01:13:06.130
Ingrid Bosseldal: But it's recently added to the discourse about the rescue child. It's the former adopted children's own voices and their testimony on growing up in families and societies where they don't feel they naturally, long

409
01:13:06.740 --> 01:13:20.649
Ingrid Bosseldal: since that of these have grown up and started to talk for themselves, their position of being not quite other, not quite the same to borrow an expression from the Vietnamese filmmaker, and having a series stream in our

410
01:13:20.690 --> 01:13:22.819
Ingrid Bosseldal: has been more and more stressed

411
01:13:23.590 --> 01:13:25.010
Anna Schnitzer: 3 min.

412
01:13:25.710 --> 01:13:38.070
Ingrid Bosseldal: Oh, thank you. One of the most prominent but also debated Swedish adoption. Researchers to be a himself adopted from Korea in early seventies, relentlessly pointed out

413
01:13:38.170 --> 01:13:47.320
Ingrid Bosseldal: that the reluctance to talk about race in Sweden has made it difficult for adapt to express their experiences of being racialized and socially added.

414
01:13:47.470 --> 01:13:51.520
Ingrid Bosseldal: Yes, tirelessly insisted that the discrimination that affects

415
01:13:51.530 --> 01:14:02.120
Ingrid Bosseldal: translate racial adoptes has nothing to do with ethnicity or culture. Most of the adaptes are a Swedish as their parents and families, but with race

416
01:14:02.440 --> 01:14:16.409
Ingrid Bosseldal: the very fact that they are non-white puts them in positions that they're right. Relatives are not put in. Additionally, the adaptees, according to juvenile, are forced to give up their original ethnicity.

417
01:14:18.910 --> 01:14:20.100
Ingrid Bosseldal: I quote.

418
01:14:20.510 --> 01:14:40.459
Ingrid Bosseldal: when we come to Sweden, we have to give up our Korean identity. It doesn't matter if we are 5 weeks old or 7 years old, we are emptied of our inclusive careiness and filled up with Swedishness. When they add up tea leaves the adopted family to become an adult. The immigrant identity is waiting

419
01:14:40.480 --> 01:14:55.070
Ingrid Bosseldal: from a privileged, adoptive child with adoptive parents who fight to make their adopted children believe that they are special, not immigrants. The adult adopti becomes just one of many other non-wide immigrants.

420
01:14:55.140 --> 01:15:06.869
Ingrid Bosseldal: That is the African Americans. Strongest opinion against interracial adoption. White parents can never teach their non white children strategies how to survive in the Racist society

421
01:15:08.440 --> 01:15:16.820
Ingrid Bosseldal: when they, out of these cope with their personal histories in the country of origin and in the country where they have grown up.

422
01:15:17.240 --> 01:15:24.539
Ingrid Bosseldal: they can use different perspective, and this course is to build the narratives of their lives. I have seen it in my interviews.

423
01:15:25.310 --> 01:15:29.419
Ingrid Bosseldal: and also in the autobiographical

424
01:15:29.780 --> 01:15:30.830
Ingrid Bosseldal: thanks.

425
01:15:31.130 --> 01:15:39.290
Ingrid Bosseldal: What they see have absolutely to do with power, but also with personal experiences, and how they have been made meaningful.

426
01:15:40.040 --> 01:15:50.929
Ingrid Bosseldal: If these courses have to do with possible ways of perceiving a phenomenon, including ourselves. narratives have to do with the way we tell stories for ourselves and for others.

427
01:15:51.040 --> 01:15:55.029
Ingrid Bosseldal: There are discourses about transnational adoption, and

428
01:15:56.310 --> 01:16:02.260
Ingrid Bosseldal: and some of them all right and

429
01:16:05.790 --> 01:16:12.320
Ingrid Bosseldal: possible to use to make these narratives, and some of them are clashing.

430
01:16:13.470 --> 01:16:15.420
Ingrid Bosseldal: and I

431
01:16:15.540 --> 01:16:25.010
Ingrid Bosseldal: am I at my time, right running out at the 15 min up soon through. Okay?

432
01:16:25.110 --> 01:16:36.129
Ingrid Bosseldal: And so I I was. I. I had a plan to to present some of these these courses, but I can. I can skip them and and just say that.

433
01:16:36.350 --> 01:16:37.550
Ingrid Bosseldal: and

434
01:16:38.740 --> 01:16:43.599
Ingrid Bosseldal: what is what is most prominent in my material is this, that

435
01:16:43.770 --> 01:16:45.120
Ingrid Bosseldal: and

436
01:16:45.540 --> 01:16:48.170
Ingrid Bosseldal: that the adult teeth

437
01:16:48.320 --> 01:16:49.450
Ingrid Bosseldal: can't

438
01:16:50.350 --> 01:16:53.150
Ingrid Bosseldal: tell any stories without

439
01:16:53.390 --> 01:17:07.480
Ingrid Bosseldal: taking into account their racialized, non-white bodies. And this the stigma this has meant for them, how they cope with this they first, and it differs

440
01:17:07.850 --> 01:17:11.849
Ingrid Bosseldal: partly with these discourses and what they do with it.

441
01:17:12.180 --> 01:17:15.369
Ingrid Bosseldal: but for all of them it is there.

442
01:17:16.370 --> 01:17:17.380
Ingrid Bosseldal: Thank you.

443
01:17:18.710 --> 01:17:22.280
Thank you very much.

444
01:17:24.240 --> 01:17:32.740
Anna Schnitzer: we also have some time for some questions, virtual or in the room.

445
01:17:33.940 --> 01:17:35.990
Anna Schnitzer: Are there questions in the room?

446
01:17:40.400 --> 01:17:41.680
Not yet.

447
01:17:44.020 --> 01:17:56.949
Anna Schnitzer: I haven't received any online questions, neither. So it you just you can put them in the in the chat, or you just raise your hand if you're adjoining online. Oh, Lucas, yeah, thank you. Yeah.

448
01:17:57.580 --> 01:18:09.760
Lucas Cé Sangalli: I know. Maybe I can ask a question. thank you very much for this super interesting presentation, and also very careful and intimate in many aspects, I think. And I found

449
01:18:10.330 --> 01:18:28.690
Lucas Cé Sangalli: very important. I and also, I think, because of on my own research, I also came across with with this in certain cases that you mentioned now in the end, that in a way, this life stories. They are a condition to this confrontation of always being racialized in a in a in a

450
01:18:28.690 --> 01:18:50.679
Lucas Cé Sangalli: to a certain extent like that it's very, very difficult to tell this life stories for some people escaping some power determinants, or some power in the qualities in the, in the society where they are born, which is their society and where they grow up. So maybe you could tell us a bit more about this. because it was the last part of the of the

451
01:18:51.210 --> 01:19:09.709
Lucas Cé Sangalli: of the presentation. So I would appreciate, if you could tell us a bit more, how, how in your material, how did you? You? You came across it like which forms people constructed their life stories in relation to these stronger condition, social conditions on their biographies. Thank you

452
01:19:10.190 --> 01:19:12.810
Ingrid Bosseldal: that the

453
01:19:13.250 --> 01:19:20.789
Ingrid Bosseldal: that I have interviewed are quite young. They are in the around their twenties

454
01:19:21.090 --> 01:19:24.159
Ingrid Bosseldal: so most of them

455
01:19:24.330 --> 01:19:27.200
Ingrid Bosseldal: relate their experiences

456
01:19:27.220 --> 01:19:31.920
Ingrid Bosseldal: very close to their adoptive families, and also to

457
01:19:33.480 --> 01:19:37.129
Ingrid Bosseldal: to the moment when they are

458
01:19:37.700 --> 01:19:54.699
Ingrid Bosseldal: leaving the family to to start a life of their own. And I I can give some examples, so what they are saying. One of them says, as soon as I go somewhere without my parents, everyone assume that I am Asian.

459
01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:58.869
Ingrid Bosseldal: and as soon as I leave our house I become Asian.

460
01:19:59.330 --> 01:20:08.189
Ingrid Bosseldal: It had been better to grow up in an Asian family in U.S.A. My mother acknowledged me as Asian, but never talked to me about races.

461
01:20:08.220 --> 01:20:10.849
Ingrid Bosseldal: It made me very vulnerable.

462
01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:16.040
Ingrid Bosseldal: I think

463
01:20:17.670 --> 01:20:27.590
Ingrid Bosseldal: I think you can say that they all talks about their bodies as a kind of burden.

464
01:20:28.610 --> 01:20:33.799
Ingrid Bosseldal: none of them talk about their Chinese bodies as something

465
01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:36.420
Ingrid Bosseldal: else. I mean.

466
01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:41.409
Ingrid Bosseldal: maybe you could have thought about your body as something to be proud of, or your

467
01:20:41.750 --> 01:20:52.249
Ingrid Bosseldal: your otherness is something to be proud of. But I haven't met anything like that in my interviews, and not in the

468
01:20:54.050 --> 01:20:59.090
Ingrid Bosseldal: documentaries and the autobiographical material, either.

469
01:20:59.580 --> 01:21:00.550
Ingrid Bosseldal: Neither.

470
01:21:01.480 --> 01:21:10.620
Ingrid Bosseldal:  I I I don't know. I hope I I also do a question about this.

471
01:21:10.960 --> 01:21:12.680
Lucas Cé Sangalli: Yes, thank you.

472
01:21:13.130 --> 01:21:35.620
Anna Schnitzer: Thank you so much. It it makes me thinking about this study. We had this morning all the study and the the research. We had an insight this morning of Gwendolen, who is? Who? Who was working in his citation with by national youth, and the question of belonging. And virtualization also is a

473
01:21:35.620 --> 01:21:56.400
Anna Schnitzer: is a subject. I'm coming up, and I'm wondering. But unfortunately she's not here, so I I can't answer for her. But I was thinking of perilous between by national young people growing up in in the in the country of one parent and adopted a

474
01:21:56.720 --> 01:22:02.950
Anna Schnitzer: yeah, but that's just a remark, and one could think about

475
01:22:03.270 --> 01:22:05.960
Ingrid Bosseldal: one different

476
01:22:06.190 --> 01:22:11.429
Ingrid Bosseldal: is that when you are adopted you have no no, the family?

477
01:22:11.440 --> 01:22:23.629
Ingrid Bosseldal: Well, no parents that looks like yourself, no one. Maybe you have a siblings, and that is one thing I have been with concerned about. Why, why.

478
01:22:24.350 --> 01:22:32.450
Ingrid Bosseldal: it seems like it doesn't matter much that you have siblings from the same country of origin as yourself.

479
01:22:32.790 --> 01:22:38.670
Ingrid Bosseldal:  In my material. It doesn't seem like it. It is.

480
01:22:39.940 --> 01:22:42.040
Ingrid Bosseldal: It's important.

481
01:22:45.290 --> 01:22:50.040
Anna Schnitzer: Are there other questions in the room.

482
01:22:50.400 --> 01:22:52.690
Yes.

483
01:22:52.830 --> 01:23:07.840
thank you so much, ingrid. It's a very moving topic that you have been talking about. I was just wondering if you could say something about this parents, child relationship

484
01:23:07.960 --> 01:23:16.530
ships. Have you only been interviewing the children with the ad of these? Or have you also been doing interviews with the parents.

485
01:23:16.580 --> 01:23:18.280
Adaptive parents.

486
01:23:19.190 --> 01:23:23.349
Ingrid Bosseldal: No, I have only interviewed the

487
01:23:23.900 --> 01:23:29.029
Ingrid Bosseldal: according the the parents I

488
01:23:29.150 --> 01:23:34.600
Ingrid Bosseldal: I have earlier in another project.

489
01:23:35.110 --> 01:23:38.170
Ingrid Bosseldal: analyze the the material for

490
01:23:38.350 --> 01:23:39.600
Ingrid Bosseldal: parents

491
01:23:39.690 --> 01:23:46.859
Ingrid Bosseldal: parental education to prospective adoptive parents

492
01:23:47.050 --> 01:23:49.260
Ingrid Bosseldal: which gives

493
01:23:50.440 --> 01:23:52.759
Ingrid Bosseldal: some information about what?

494
01:23:53.530 --> 01:24:05.399
Ingrid Bosseldal: How the parents are prepared for connecting to their children, or or being adoptive parents, and what they are

495
01:24:05.680 --> 01:24:15.120
Ingrid Bosseldal: supposed to do in relation to their children's background.

496
01:24:15.540 --> 01:24:17.480
Ingrid Bosseldal: but I have not

497
01:24:17.490 --> 01:24:21.860
Ingrid Bosseldal: interviewed any adoptive parents.

498
01:24:22.330 --> 01:24:23.270
Ingrid Bosseldal: Yeah.

499
01:24:25.080 --> 01:24:34.720
okay, I continue, could you say something about this color blindness in Sweden? How do you? Such as, what do you think?

500
01:24:34.890 --> 01:24:42.520
 Is it contra-productive in these adaptive parents, situations, or

501
01:24:42.730 --> 01:24:54.990
Hasn't it been recognized as a topic or discrimination or racialization in this? How parents are prepared for

502
01:24:55.020 --> 01:25:00.319
 getting into a and or some I don't know how. What kind of

503
01:25:00.780 --> 01:25:08.429
Ingrid Bosseldal: hmm to say something, I think. Yes, I I think it has been very conf for that, because

504
01:25:08.470 --> 01:25:10.650
Ingrid Bosseldal: it has

505
01:25:13.970 --> 01:25:18.509
Ingrid Bosseldal: covered problem. And and you haven't not have

506
01:25:19.250 --> 01:25:25.339
Ingrid Bosseldal: a a language to talk about. The experiences that these adulties have

507
01:25:25.440 --> 01:25:26.450
Ingrid Bosseldal: done.

508
01:25:26.900 --> 01:25:34.050
Ingrid Bosseldal: and and it's also a bit strange reading, the especially the the

509
01:25:34.060 --> 01:25:41.520
Ingrid Bosseldal: authorities, material or texts about adoption and the experts.

510
01:25:42.520 --> 01:25:45.960
Ingrid Bosseldal: advice and and the

511
01:25:46.350 --> 01:25:48.619
Ingrid Bosseldal: attempts to problematize

512
01:25:48.950 --> 01:25:58.050
Ingrid Bosseldal:  the situation for the I please, because they are talking about ethnicity. And and I I have

513
01:26:00.150 --> 01:26:09.680
Ingrid Bosseldal: I I I can just say that they have very big problems with  How they connect this

514
01:26:09.980 --> 01:26:15.890
Ingrid Bosseldal: original ethnicity to these adaptees who who never

515
01:26:16.250 --> 01:26:18.430
Ingrid Bosseldal: been to

516
01:26:19.210 --> 01:26:22.000
in their countries of iridium

517
01:26:22.850 --> 01:26:23.670
Ingrid Bosseldal: for it

518
01:26:23.770 --> 01:26:27.910
Ingrid Bosseldal: that long to be a part of some ethnicity.

519
01:26:28.460 --> 01:26:29.810
Ingrid Bosseldal: And

520
01:26:32.870 --> 01:26:33.680
Ingrid Bosseldal: and

521
01:26:35.570 --> 01:26:45.960
Ingrid Bosseldal: it it is really obvious when you read this autobiographical material, and when you listen to. and

522
01:26:47.720 --> 01:26:55.149
Ingrid Bosseldal: the adaptes from Sweden, how they have been forced into a position where they.

523
01:26:55.830 --> 01:26:57.029
Ingrid Bosseldal: I have been

524
01:26:57.200 --> 01:27:03.699
Ingrid Bosseldal: told that they are a Swedish as anyone. and they in the same time as

525
01:27:04.320 --> 01:27:08.419
Ingrid Bosseldal: experienced on their bodies, that they are not

526
01:27:09.340 --> 01:27:25.980
Anna Schnitzer:  yeah. thank you so much indeed for your presentation and all of you for the discussion, the questions we have to move on to our for presentation.

527
01:27:25.980 --> 01:27:50.980
Anna Schnitzer: is here. She made it welcome, and she prepares the presentation if I understood it right. With fiddity that a cabinet, both of them from the University of Milano. welcome We are looking forward to a presentation with the title, The Gender Construction of Bureaucratic Truth, life Stories of Nigerian Migrants, and

528
01:27:50.980 --> 01:27:54.760
Anna Schnitzer: of the Asylum Commission in Italy.

529
01:27:56.560 --> 01:28:07.349
Ombretta Ingrascì: Thank you, Anna, thank you very much, and thank and apologize for this technical problem. But and for my delay, I'm going to share the representation.

530
01:28:08.470 --> 01:28:13.320
 just a second.

531
01:28:18.020 --> 01:28:21.819
Ombretta Ingrascì: Okay, okay. just a second.

532
01:28:22.630 --> 01:28:25.859
Ombretta Ingrascì: Okay, can you see the presentation?

533
01:28:26.560 --> 01:28:32.700
Ombretta Ingrascì: Yeah, it's not in the presentation mode. Okay.

534
01:28:33.020 --> 01:28:34.619
Anna Schnitzer: yeah, right?

535
01:28:34.670 --> 01:29:02.700
Ombretta Ingrascì: Perfect. So thank you very much again here in this presentation I will attempt to share with you the first results of the ongoing research work that I'm carrying out with the Federica Cabres. We are working on this project, which basically is a kind of

536
01:29:02.970 --> 01:29:05.709
Ombretta Ingrascì: let's say,

537
01:29:05.980 --> 01:29:25.890
Ombretta Ingrascì: research project because it's been off of a other 2 projects The first one is a and a rise in 2,020. it is a A called the Itaka Interconnected History, and archives for Migrants Agency and tango narratives across Europe

538
01:29:25.890 --> 01:29:36.780
Ombretta Ingrascì: and the Mediterranean vision, and this I I've been involved in these approaches since the 2,021 as the member of the University of Vlan.

539
01:29:36.780 --> 01:29:53.040
a research team who is coordinated by Professor Monica Masari and this project. our team. I started so far the undocumented migration across the and see

540
01:29:53.040 --> 01:30:17.400
Ombretta Ingrascì: and and with studies focus especially on the journey of undocumented migrants, and is a project based on the documentary analysis and biographical methods. We have collected the more than 20 in depth interviews with migrants and around 50 judicial fights and reports

541
01:30:17.880 --> 01:30:28.049
Ombretta Ingrascì: of a zoom room seeker commission hearing. So so this is the first project. The second project that is

542
01:30:28.380 --> 01:30:53.379
Ombretta Ingrascì: It's been carried out by Federica actually was carried out by Federica Kabas between the 28 and 2,022. It is a doctoral research project, the The Is a Federica. This is is entitled to the religious rights and the exploited practices. The case of Nigerian criminal system in Italy, and this project was granted the on a participant

543
01:30:53.380 --> 01:31:07.179
erez agmoni and documentary analysis, and the biographic mated. Shees collect a great amount of sources, including judicial files, the police reports, interviews with expert and ethnographic notes, 150.

544
01:31:07.180 --> 01:31:30.869
So basically by discussing we discussed the outputs Federic and I about our projects. And we realized together that it was necessary to study a and neglect and neglect the subject study. Actually, that is, the the interaction practices between the asylum seekers and the immigration offices.

545
01:31:30.890 --> 01:31:51.980
Ombretta Ingrascì: especially members of the Commission for the recognition of the international protection in Italy. So, starting from the great amount of sources that we have the collected and the analyze, we decided to look for and to explore a leader to that mitel parson.

546
01:31:52.380 --> 01:32:20.659
Ombretta Ingrascì: to to to basically read the properly the material that we had to collect, and we found out very interesting and inspiring work. actually, that as the to to read the encounter between the asylum seekers and the immigration offices. Obviously, I don't have the time to go through this to I just want to

547
01:32:20.660 --> 01:32:30.439
Ombretta Ingrascì: Erez Agmoni mentioned the fact that, for example, the biographical approach that we have used in in our project was very useful in this, the new one

548
01:32:30.440 --> 01:32:47.110
Ombretta Ingrascì: and this new work In order to deconstruct the monolithic representation emerging from the reports of the Asylum Seeker Commission's hearing. As I will try to explain later. So this the 2

549
01:32:47.110 --> 01:33:03.029
Ombretta Ingrascì: literature was very, very. It is very beautiful, because this is an ongoing project, and it's a lead to. in reading our sources through these. it's led us to

550
01:33:03.300 --> 01:33:05.990
Ombretta Ingrascì: To maintain

551
01:33:06.130 --> 01:33:34.799
Ombretta Ingrascì: erez Agmoni that During the procedure for asking the international protection they encounter with the State through this sort of b bureaucratic through relative to asylum seekers, biography. So we meant A as bureaucratic through kind of certification of narration, resulting from various encounters actually with the immigration offices 150

552
01:33:34.800 --> 01:33:40.910
at the board is the beginning, and also then with social work and the reception center and final

553
01:33:41.010 --> 01:34:04.809
Ombretta Ingrascì: with the zealum Commission, it's so in the first encounter with the State, when the migrants feed the Zulum claim form, there is a kind of crystallization of migrants story of life for them. This might change because it is questioned at the during the interview with swashbucklers in the section center, and finally, it arrives at the A

554
01:34:04.810 --> 01:34:24.529
Ombretta Ingrascì: commission. So, as I mentioned, and during the asylum interview there is a kind of consolidation of the first story and or the adaptation to the right story. So the one which offered the possibility to obtain documents. So the one that the is expected by the by the Commission.

555
01:34:24.560 --> 01:34:47.470
Ombretta Ingrascì: So in this context, migrants must demonstrate. They vulnerability in front of immigration officers who collect the story of life, and they obviously must retrace the painful pieces of their leads through coherent narratives, and I underline these because we are coherent. Narratives

556
01:34:47.870 --> 01:35:08.019
Ombretta Ingrascì: come out from the interaction with bureaucrats, and these that coordin narrative finally ended up with to be a bureaucrats through which they can obtain the a zoom right to the definition of a zoom zoom might. So the sources that the

557
01:35:08.200 --> 01:35:32.640
Ombretta Ingrascì: let us basically to serve the construction of bureaucratic to regard the the case of Nigerian as in asylum seekers, and we have adopted the adopted the Gender approach which, basically has allowed us to reveal these construction processes.

558
01:35:34.930 --> 01:35:53.419
Ombretta Ingrascì: So since it's 2,000 Nigerian networks so operating sexual trafficking as use the political asylum as a strategic tool for avoiding the deportation of their unrecognized remit. They have traffic women. And

559
01:35:54.250 --> 01:36:11.170
Ombretta Ingrascì: basically, they constructed a fair credible story for the Asylum Mission, so they end up in a to traffic, compat with women, providing them with photocopy stories that that will allow them to obtain aside

560
01:36:11.230 --> 01:36:24.449
Ombretta Ingrascì: so paradoxically obtaining documents. did not protect tractive women and firm exploitation, but rather in the same way facility connected. Obviously, we we don't want to to blame these. but these 2!

561
01:36:24.450 --> 01:36:40.479
Ombretta Ingrascì: It's interesting to see how the it might be, this construction of the through through. Also the the involvement of other actors like criminal female actors.

562
01:36:40.480 --> 01:36:59.110
Ombretta Ingrascì: It's so we from very interesting, this, this aspect that that I want to show you. a piece of a evidence that we a collected from a judicial file. So this is a a tape conversation with him and madam. So a woman who manage the trafficking from Nigeria to Italy.

563
01:36:59.110 --> 01:37:19.730
and those who manage the sex market. And this piece is quite interesting, because there is a a conversation that was saved by police between madam and the exploited woman and the I'm not going to read all the extra, but I just want to read the the part that I emphasize. you it.

564
01:37:19.750 --> 01:37:49.629
Ombretta Ingrascì: The madam says you know you have to go there to the police station. You have to ask the police. I want to apply for political asylum. See them to them. Political assignment. I want to apply for political asylum. So this is a conversation. It's a quite integrated, because from a a number of interview with the social workers, we have the With this confirmation about the these instrumental use of the political asylum

565
01:37:50.210 --> 01:38:10.699
Ombretta Ingrascì: mit Ctl. And some testimonies. For example, this was an interview collected by Federica of a legal worker in Naples. she, she she told Federica. I have often as an impression that today international protection is the way to turn it out in Italy. Then you also have to the doubt that it's all aimed at 250

566
01:38:10.700 --> 01:38:22.299
Ombretta Ingrascì: and obtain your residence permit for international protect to with the story creating a dock by someone who tests you that in order to obtain it, you have to say this thing and then.

567
01:38:22.300 --> 01:38:30.330
and now they're not requested to try to allow you to stay in the reception center to be at the expense of the State, and still proceed to your set.

568
01:38:30.330 --> 01:38:54.419
Ombretta Ingrascì: It's a great dilemma, stories that are repeated with all the same. So I I you know it's so. It created a adult and what is striking from the is of. But our material is the fact that there is a kind of it seems to be, and we needed to investigate more with other collecting other sources.

569
01:38:54.600 --> 01:39:18.390
Ombretta Ingrascì: That the That I think it's quite necessary to, and the to emphasize that there is a kind of gender different treatment that during the a Zealand interview is basically women involved in trafficking are perceived the end constructor and subject to entitled to claim protection rights due to the related higher vulnerability. Unlike men.

570
01:39:18.390 --> 01:39:26.879
Ombretta Ingrascì: So during the the asylum interview. Why Nigeria? Women are asked for a detailed biographical story

571
01:39:26.880 --> 01:39:53.629
Ombretta Ingrascì: simul simulated, but a precise question aimed at provide a coherent, consistent, and chronological logic narratives, so they are required to be a detailed account of the Jonah that led them to Italy, and the exploitation they experience them on the opposite men, and are readily asked that on their German mess stories are unsolicited because they they profile.

572
01:39:53.670 --> 01:40:17.360
Ombretta Ingrascì: does not feel that in that of victim. So as a next strategy since the they they might not believe. if they tell the true story, and often cannot prove that the the tools that I've been because this. Often they are asked it with written documents, medical certificates, for example, and sometimes the

573
01:40:17.360 --> 01:40:33.010
the, the, the the bonus of a tortoise, are invisible, so it's very difficult to to prove. men sometimes the end up of the clarity that are gay because this is a is Nigeria. It is a crime, even if they are not

574
01:40:33.010 --> 01:40:55.430
Ombretta Ingrascì: so, the 4 for men that sexual orientation is used as an experience for proposing the right story that they know. According to this piece of compatriot. So of fellows was already accepted by the Commission as a credible story as a true story, even if not through.

575
01:40:55.510 --> 01:40:58.629
Ombretta Ingrascì: So here there is a

576
01:40:58.750 --> 01:41:07.710
Ombretta Ingrascì: 3 min example. Sorry

577
01:41:08.820 --> 01:41:15.170
he has another interview collected that

578
01:41:15.250 --> 01:41:45.180
Ombretta Ingrascì: underlying the fact that the Commission do not ask details about the journal. and it's so these interview this Nigerian put to a cultural mediator in terms of she underlie the necessity of understand the thing that happened to men, not only what happened to to to women. So I'm going to conclude that because I I do not have a type of. Then we can go back to this point

579
01:41:45.180 --> 01:41:55.769
mit Ctl, and a saying that as video interview is often complex, and it's a bureaucratic set up foster misunderstanding and misinterpretation that are often culturally motivated, 250.

580
01:41:55.960 --> 01:42:12.079
Ombretta Ingrascì: The structure of the heroes, and in particular, the absence of professional figures, such as counter mediators able to go beyond the simple translation during the interview might increase the vulnerability of asylum seekers. Further debates in distract of the narratives.

581
01:42:12.620 --> 01:42:38.700
Ombretta Ingrascì: misunderstanding sometime bring about it to a den of asylum seek. It's right, and that is why, as long as it's a compelled to record to lies which we can kind of strategy to to call with the questioning during asylum interview. And these actually in this, they show they they the arguments, and the it's quite int to be that this can be included in within an ethics of line

582
01:42:39.050 --> 01:42:51.320
Ombretta Ingrascì: and finally, the encounter between the officer expectations about the migrants, stories, and mindless attempt to meet these expectation finally produce a kind of a

583
01:42:51.629 --> 01:43:11.970
Ombretta Ingrascì: bureaucratic and biography, and they lead to to our own biographic approach, which teach us to give the relevance to contradictions, so to discontinuity, to not for even to actually in aeration, allows us to understand that

584
01:43:12.120 --> 01:43:35.480
Ombretta Ingrascì: actually, the construction nature of the source of life. Imagine from design commission hearings. So I think that I'm very happy that I share with you these, the ongoing project, because that I'd like to to have you a comment about this concept, that on which Federic and I are working, because I think it might be

585
01:43:35.540 --> 01:43:46.510
Ombretta Ingrascì: give some insight in understanding the interaction between and the the bureaucratic encounter of migrants. Thank you very much.

586
01:43:46.709 --> 01:43:48.040
Thank you so much.

587
01:43:52.299 --> 01:44:03.299
Anna Schnitzer: Thank you very much. To these for these insights. I I'm happy that you made it to present your work. Are there questions in the room for

588
01:44:08.410 --> 01:44:09.670
not yet.

589
01:44:11.090 --> 01:44:23.850
Anna Schnitzer: I don't have any in the yes, I have one. virtual question. of also the a pitch. Go ahead also, all of you. Can you hear me.

590
01:44:24.160 --> 01:44:26.410
Ombretta Ingrascì: Yes, okay. Okay. Fine.

591
01:44:26.730 --> 01:44:33.020
Ursula Apitzsch: Well, I found this presentation very interesting. And I just wanted to make a comment.

592
01:44:33.160 --> 01:44:38.610
Ursula Apitzsch: I had a doctoral student more. Diop

593
01:44:38.850 --> 01:44:44.500
Ursula Apitzsch: who did doctoral thesis and already completed it about

594
01:44:44.559 --> 01:44:48.809
Ursula Apitzsch: women from sub-sahara, who came

595
01:44:48.930 --> 01:45:06.289
Ursula Apitzsch: to Marseille and to Frankfurt, and to discuss work so to to France and to Germany and He came to this issue because he lived before he had lived in Italy.

596
01:45:06.520 --> 01:45:18.129
Ursula Apitzsch: and he did also biographical research. And it's just the same story that he could provide us.

597
01:45:18.520 --> 01:45:22.559
Ursula Apitzsch: just the same story that the zoom

598
01:45:22.650 --> 01:45:28.420
Ursula Apitzsch: system, how it works. how it works in Italy, in France, in Germany

599
01:45:28.969 --> 01:45:32.010
Ursula Apitzsch: is a help for this

600
01:45:32.330 --> 01:45:35.070
Ursula Apitzsch: sex business.

601
01:45:35.209 --> 01:45:40.650
Ursula Apitzsch: and, as you know, Germany has now the biggest sex business in Europe.

602
01:45:40.969 --> 01:45:46.090
Ursula Apitzsch: and many of the women who start in Italy, then.

603
01:45:46.120 --> 01:45:49.130
Ursula Apitzsch: come to France and to Germany.

604
01:45:49.379 --> 01:45:53.219
Ursula Apitzsch: In France it is still not as

605
01:45:53.320 --> 01:45:59.199
Ursula Apitzsch:  as let's say numerous, as in Germany.

606
01:45:59.280 --> 01:46:07.240
Ursula Apitzsch: and well, I I I don't know whether the thesis is already of more. The up is already

607
01:46:07.370 --> 01:46:15.480
Ursula Apitzsch: published, but I would like to share or to media into the contact between you and him.

608
01:46:16.900 --> 01:46:20.459
Ursula Apitzsch: That's just what I wanted to

609
01:46:21.010 --> 01:46:25.570
Ombretta Ingrascì: thank you for this comment, very useful because we are trying to collect the

610
01:46:25.650 --> 01:46:48.580
Ombretta Ingrascì:  more information, more so, sister, and the exchange. We want to share these first results, because I think it's very important to collect stories, and it's not the easy to collect stories, you know, because they are heating. And they. It's very a challenge and methodological. It's very challenging to have

611
01:46:48.580 --> 01:47:13.170
Ombretta Ingrascì: to these stories so they can die. I'm very keen on finding other works on this matter, because we we notice also that is a neglected such a matter, because there is a guy lot of interested in asylum seekers from a political from a legal point of view, but not from it in the in interaction. What's going on in within the

612
01:47:13.170 --> 01:47:25.239
Ombretta Ingrascì: they come inside the Commission, so it will be nice also to interview immigration officers so like to implement that in order to understand how these the

613
01:47:25.240 --> 01:47:29.819
Ombretta Ingrascì: bureaucratic biography finally is produced.

614
01:47:30.040 --> 01:47:37.510
Ursula Apitzsch: So thank you very much. I will keep in contact for having the the contact with the Phd student. Thank you very much.

615
01:47:37.580 --> 01:47:40.509
Ursula Apitzsch: May I add one sentence, just

616
01:47:40.740 --> 01:47:44.010
Ursula Apitzsch: I'm looking forward to

617
01:47:44.380 --> 01:47:50.180
Ursula Apitzsch: working with you. and to be in contact with you and

618
01:47:50.190 --> 01:47:57.289
Ursula Apitzsch: I just wanted to say, this man, this student or the he himself come from Senegal.

619
01:47:57.460 --> 01:48:02.080
Ursula Apitzsch: and he lived also this experience in his country.

620
01:48:02.310 --> 01:48:07.190
Ursula Apitzsch: and I think really we have to do something on policies in Europe.

621
01:48:07.300 --> 01:48:24.920
Ursula Apitzsch: and may you may know that we in France, in in our project and Frankfurt tried to develop the method of biolog biographical policy analysis, and I think your work very well fits in this.

622
01:48:24.920 --> 01:48:53.879
Ombretta Ingrascì: Yes, the it that approach to the was the coordinated by Monica. I'm sorry. Use this, but to evaluate policy, and we are going to publish a policy report that actually. And we we try to give some recommendation based on the interview with migrants. so we are just, conducted this kind of approach. Correlated by in by monica.

623
01:48:53.920 --> 01:49:15.760
 Hello, I have a question it's a passionate, really, I really adopt your presentation. So I'm currently working on checking refugees in France. And so it's evident for everybody who worked. I think, with such kind of public that this sort of narrative which is transmitted, repeated.

624
01:49:15.760 --> 01:49:42.319
advise among them. But this is a I will just want to add this, this is really leaving material which, Changes according to whom they talk about to, and especially, for example, they they in different levels of courts, right? They're in France for them. There are 3 of them, and also it. It really depends on even on the interpreter who is in front of them. For example, I told her to interpret it, who who are Chechen themselves.

625
01:49:42.320 --> 01:49:55.649
And the the narrative is completely different. And so it could be really interesting to see. But I know it's very complicated. I never did it but really interact with the interpreters, and also the experts which are like

626
01:49:55.800 --> 01:50:07.149
in front of them. Because this narrative is really changing and leave and flexible. And so this is really very interesting. Thank you. Just more than a remark than a question.

627
01:50:07.810 --> 01:50:15.019
Ombretta Ingrascì: Thank you very much as a crucial point to the interpretation, the translation? Yes, it's definitely

628
01:50:15.720 --> 01:50:21.270
Ombretta Ingrascì: I agree absolutely. So. Give it a point. Yes, definitely.

629
01:50:22.430 --> 01:50:34.199
I see you on this, taking the microphone. Do you want to? Yeah, for saying that we unfortunately need to close, because in 5 min we'll have the next session here in the room, which is a business meeting.

630
01:50:34.350 --> 01:50:42.420
And yeah, I think we because we need some minutes to reorganize and so on.

631
01:50:42.710 --> 01:50:49.849
So it's the second time I have to today that I have to say that we have to quit, and I feel a bit bad. But yeah.

632
01:50:50.280 --> 01:50:51.070
yeah.

633
01:50:51.840 --> 01:51:03.239
Anna Schnitzer: thank you so much. everybody for discussing you for presenters for presenting and I'm looking forward to the continuing of the of the conference.

634
01:51:03.520 --> 01:51:06.020
Anna Schnitzer: Have a good time.