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Okay. So I just read for us the acknowledgment of country on behalf of everyone gathered. I pay respect to spirit of country. Here in now, where we are meeting, I acknowledged the past of present cooling nation

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as the Zar and people. Here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the number of original law, customs, and custodianship responsibilities for country and the people that country and people. That country continues to sustain generation of the and generation into the future. For us.

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For all of us I recognize the important contribution that first nations. Thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nations, delegates in the room today for their contributions to knowledge in the discipline.

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Okay? So

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no.

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Lara Maestripieri: So I guess. thank you very much for for for being there. I'm sorry that I couldn't make it to to Melbourne.

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Lara Maestripieri: but I'm very happy that we could have the support of our outlook to organize this session as well as this should be. I am a lot of my security. I am organizing this session with the net of noon. And architect we aim with this session to discuss the professionalism for a child with the education and care.

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Lara Maestripieri: Up to now this has been a a profession that is not being at the center of the way to a professional

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Lara Maestripieri: on the sociology of professional group, mostly because probably it has been kind of not sufficient to reconsider it, maybe because it's a feminized profession. Today we gather the 3 to presentation, and there is a Chris account that we'll open our discussion. Then we have the

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Lara Maestripieri: I'll we'll pass, we taking the time and give in turn to all of us.

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Lara Maestripieri: I think that this, since we are only 3, we can have a bit more time for presenting our work, I would say 20 min each, and we will leave the discussion at the end of the session.

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Lara Maestripieri: Thank you very much for participating.

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So Hello, everyone. Can you see my screen and also test my voice?

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It's okay.

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Right? So.

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okay, thank you.

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So hello, everyone. I'm Chris. From the Education University of Hong Kong in this evening. I'm happy to share with you some of my findings from the studies of professional ethics for early childhood teaching profession.

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It? It's okay. Yeah, thank you. Okay, so professional ethics is importance in developing teachers, identity providing quality teaching. And also and and enhancing our professionalism. So also professional ethics is also useful for teachers and counter day to day challenges at work.

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Especially Kennedy, and teachers who have to work with different stakeholders, such as children, families, colleagues, and organization, or also policymakers.

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So although code of ethics for teaching profession has been developed and also applied. In a while, while understanding professional ethics of early childhood teachers has been and and so developed areas of study in Hong Kong.

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So why? the ethics is important in the teaching profession. ethnic is concerned with the questions of what should turn as moral good behavior.

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And it's also also have to ensure memory or our good decisions. So towards the professionalization of teaching, there is a growing attention on professional standards of educational practices and also socializations of teachers.

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So The code of ethics is very useful to To resolve some moral and ethical dilemmas, and also to maintain a high standards of professional conduct.

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there's a 2 code were developed in guiding Hong Kong teachers. Their profession, the one was formulated in 1,995 by the Council of Professional Conduct in Education, and the latest one is the Guideline, was just published in 2,022 by the educational railroad.

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So, despite this, no specific code of ethics has been developed for Y, and and also using the code of ethics from the 3 country as a base. So this studies attempts to explore and develop the principles of the professional ethics of Hong Kong early childhood sector.

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So. these studies! we we put The suggested suggested. Principles of professional ethics which are builded on rebuilding different codes, and in addition. We collected quantitative data from the semi-structural interviews with a total of 24 in-service kindergarten teachers in Hong Kong.

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in this studies we have 3 interrelated studies. So instead, one, we compare the code of ethics in Ec. Which are drawn from 3 countries.

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We referenced. The Australian code of ethics, which was developed in 2,016, and the other 2 codes were developed in 2,011 from Uk. And also U.S.A.

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And instead you want. We Conduct the content analysis by listing out the 3 codes These 3 coasts. We share these same aspects, which are the statements towards the professional commitments to children, colleagues, and also Employers, families, and and also To communities, and also to The societies!

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So in the first step. Oh, I that work.

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Okay. So in the first step, we start out some common. we also sort out some convergent conversion statements by each aspect, which means the statements look similar that would become the core statements for our Hong Kong's version.

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Okay.

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Additionally, we also acknowledged other diversion statements from the coast of 3. So in the second step, we also review and select some key statements. This form, as our sum of known core statements.

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so based on the results from this study. One we developed the culturally and and and contextually, opioid code of the ethics for Hong Kong. yee contacts.

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So here you can see the Chinese versions of the code. We developed about a

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And also we conduct the pilot studies with 13 in service and pre-service kindergarten teachers for the contact, the the validation.

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In study history. We have Also conducting a study with 24. In-surface teachers who talk different grades with the aims to understanding their perceptions on the importance of those statements.

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So here we are going to the the findings. We calculate the top one and top 2 statements here. I will present the results with the qualitative findings from the teachers. Interviews!

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For the top one statements. Kindergarten teachers ray as Extremely important, very important, and moderate importance in the aspect of 2 Tours, the professional and commitments to children. So in the statement, the top one statements is number 14. Which is about the creating and maintaining state

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safe. Health.

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inclusive and learning rich environments that promote Independent thinking and autonomy in children's learning. So in the interviews In the teacher interviews. Our head teachers express that teachers need to guide children to think more From different end goals. So that in the future they can also see things from different perspectives

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and and other classroom. teachers, observe that most children score up at home, and they are very dependent when they come to kindergarten teachers can give them more autonomy in learning and freedoms for decision making. So teachers can also help them. to develop the ability to differentiate between right and wrong.

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So it

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yeah, I skip it.

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Okay. So to to the Tours. The aspect of also. Towards the professional and commitment to children's. The top 2 statements in this aspect is Number 15. Which is about the

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Recognizing and also appreciating and respecting children's individuals quality and and their potentials that support their learning and development. So from our qualitative data, our classroom teachers emphasize that every child has different their characteristics and own potentials.

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So it is important that teachers identify their personal their personal qualities to help them learn and develop so holistically and other head teachers share the similar views, saying that teachers needs to adopt an appreciative and positive attitudes toward every child who has a difference their difference. Characteristics.

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So regarding the aspect of the commitment to colleagues, employers, families and community societies, the top ones. The statements is number 42, which is about supporting parents at children's. Most important caretakers, and respecting their rights to make decisions for their children.

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So Classroom teachers consider parents as children's their first teachers. So the teachers said, if the parents are not equipped with these skills to raise their trial? It can lead to many problems.

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for the children in the future! And the family's impact is Po found. And this is why, apart from teacher teaching at the children's school, the way the parents teach them is also crucial.

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Another head teacher also highlights during the pandemic children only attend kindergarten for half day, so a lot of time, their parents, who needs to help them with their homework. So the hand, the head teacher saw parents, as are also a working partners during the pandemic.

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and also

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regarding the top 2 statement. In this aspect the first 2 statement is number 33, which is about educating children on the base of an ethic, of caring.

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upholding their ethics of care in one words, maintaining professional conduct among the police.

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So Here I have a code from the classroom teachers, as The teacher said, children may intimate In imitating teachers, their teachers, and often unconsciously learn their teachers, behaviors and also their their actions. So this is seems as important as teachers are children's, their role model.

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The second top 2 statement is number 42, 3, which is about listening and enhancing. Parents, in sharing the decision-making, planning, and assessment! Practices in relations to children's learning, development, and well-being. So a classroom teacher give a remarks that

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parents needs to know the teaching contact so that they can establish a common goal, and teachers also needs to listen to parents their feedback, but they have also to a strict balance between teachers and parents perspective

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when also Considering parents. Suggestions! Teachers should make up it very carefully, and not fulfilling unreasonable request from the parents

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you.

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So here I have some a few points. For the studies, the the implications! So findings from these 3! Interrelated studies shown that

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Professional ethics among Early child education could be could be could be conceptual conceptual like less likely into 5 domains. So Also the interview datas also reflect that the dimension and the meaning of the professional ethics were worried among in service teachers.

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So also these studies contributes to articulate the dialogue about with with teachers, about the notion of the professional value, the moral reasoning, the professional autonomy, and also teachers their identity.

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And last, but not least these findings. For these. These studies also we affirmed the responsibilities and obligations of the kindergarten teachers, and this could also be seen as a source of some insight into the ethical base of the professional. their professionalisms in Hong Kong early childhood contacts.

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So here's my presentation comes to the end, and thank you very much for your listening. And so here is my email. So you're very welcome to content me if you have some other further questions about this studies. So thank you.

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Okay.

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thank you.

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Our next presentation.

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Okay.

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it's online by.

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okay.

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kumiko hagiwara:  do you want to introduce Kumiko Hagivar? And I would like to share my

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kumiko hagiwara: slide.

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kumiko hagiwara: Okay.

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kumiko hagiwara: hmm, okay.

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kumiko hagiwara: So

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kumiko hagiwara: my Internet is a little bit unstable right now. So I'm I have to close down my video. Okay, just a voice, thank you.

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kumiko hagiwara: So again, good evening. Thank you very much for this opportunity. And my name is Kamiko. Ha! Gila, speaking online. My presentation is about the Japanese Register nursery teachers

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kumiko hagiwara: under the monetization of a child care. So I guess my presentation, situated in the

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kumiko hagiwara: kind of a different what is say

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kumiko hagiwara: perspective? Because, okay. Oh, oh, let me let me start then.

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kumiko hagiwara: So what? It would like to say that when the government transforms the provision of child care from the State to the market. it also needs to change the formation of a child care workforce

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kumiko hagiwara: to be compatible with this market. This entails redefining child care workers as professionals.

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kumiko hagiwara: and if the existing qualification or requirements for the childcare labor force may pose a beer. So I would like to examine the case of Japan, its dynamics among the state in the market and the occupation groups.

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Okay.

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kumiko hagiwara: doesn't work.

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kumiko hagiwara: So I have written quite a bit here, but when what I like to focus is that the 2,015 reform which introduced a full-fledged, market-based approach to increase the suppliable child care services.

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kumiko hagiwara: of course. they're increase of the supply chain is more workforce and they both for profit. Our care sector wants to lower lower cost workforce, however, the child care provision in Japan were regulated as nursery teachers with the national qualifications

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kumiko hagiwara: in Japan does not officially admit the migrant workers in childcare sector. So strategy to secure the workforce is

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kumiko hagiwara: the introduction of a lower certificate and the substitution with the educational and medical qualification.

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kumiko hagiwara: So the dynamics of the crafting childcare labour market has created a phenomenon that I call the trump of professionalization for the nursery teachers. It means, as follows, the State led. Marketization of a childcare necessitates the risk their nursery teacher to distinguish themselves as the professional from the general childcare labor force and the adjacent qualified occupation.

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kumiko hagiwara: It perpetuates that their dilemma and the continuous quest for their professional identity identity, because the uniqueness of their qualifications is consistently obscured by both policies and the market.

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kumiko hagiwara: So this is my, this, this is the context of my presentation. And let me quickly overview the history call development of the professional project by industry teachers.

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kumiko hagiwara: So

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kumiko hagiwara: probably you may not believe it, but the public star care system was established under the Child Welfare law in 1,947, right after the work. So we have a quite a long history.

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kumiko hagiwara: and as we, as you see in the slide, low and childcare system was designed with the idea of the universal provision through public dis responsibilities, supply side of funded, funded by the national and local governments, and slightest scales, and such and such.

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kumiko hagiwara: So as for as to the workforce and the low and the con enforcement order, child care are to be provided by the qualified nursery teacher in principle.

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kumiko hagiwara: So at the time of the enforcement law, nursery teachers positioned as the new occupation for their educated women with extensive knowledge of a children's development, the the welfare of children and families.

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kumiko hagiwara: because nurseries are nursery teachers, as as assigned not only to the child care centers, but also to the child welfare facilities

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kumiko hagiwara: oops.

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kumiko hagiwara: So this is the training and education for the natural teachers and license top foot educator of the kindergarten. For now around 75% of nurser teacher also have the license of our childhood educator.

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kumiko hagiwara: So, nevertheless, the nursery teacher I was in to introduce as the new occupation for the educated woman. It was it. It was also the time of the post war restriction period, the job, this government, if it's the budget constraints. It meant a strictest, supplier of child care services, and in advocate staffing low wages for particularly those in the private sector.

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kumiko hagiwara: The reality for the professionals is, according to their words, the work of love and service. The salary of nursery teachers, with the qualification in the private sector, was lower than that of high school graduate women.

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kumiko hagiwara: What made them disappointed was that in Japanese standard the classification application of 1,953, they were classified in the personal service sector, the same occupational group as household housemate, matron, even geisha.

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kumiko hagiwara: So in 1,956 for the but for the establishment that the true professional status, the National Association of Necessary teachers, was formed. We wanted to improve the treatment of necessary teachers to establish our social status as professionals, and to gather to learn and research the better practice and the theory. So we should know to that Words of learn and research the better practice and theory. So they are very in. In Thoratistic.

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kumiko hagiwara: They launched a variety of campaigns and the form of the coalition with the unions and parents and governments, so such as correcting the mis misclassification and occupational occupational groups and rally against the budget cuts and demanding wage hike and demanding research demanding, spending.

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Okay?

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kumiko hagiwara: So the slot shows the result of campaign for more daycare centers. We see the dynamic increase of the childcare center in 1,900 sixtys and 1,900 seventys, along with the increase in number of public daycare centers and overall reach of a childcare workout, also improved.

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kumiko hagiwara: Excuse me.

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kumiko hagiwara: and in the God!

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kumiko hagiwara: So there is another issue

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kumiko hagiwara: that has always plagued the nursery teachers. That is what the traits of the child care as profession.

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kumiko hagiwara: The debate over the

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kumiko hagiwara:  bill of a social welfare, 1970 S. Reflect their ideal profession. The Bill categorized nursery teachers as a class 2 certified social worker. They opposed to be positioned as a social worker and demanded that the recognition as independent profession, integration, a fair and care. I'll reach out for the education.

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kumiko hagiwara: So they set up the committee for the bill of nursery teachers and proposed implementing a qualification stratification based on the educational background to skew a higher qualification work.

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kumiko hagiwara: however, the proposed was opposed by the members at the beginning ringing hierarchy within the same occupation. so that, based on the ideal professionals. They deny the categorization as a social worker and deny the hierarchy within the same same occupation

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kumiko hagiwara:  so however, it's status the idea of the bill was partly achieved as a revised child welfare a lot. It does it a Dec. Need that a necessary teacher at the exclusive astronaut qualification.

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kumiko hagiwara: However, the stateless marketization started also in the 2,000

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kumiko hagiwara: they started to take measure, to increase supply of child care through market. That is a pro approval entry of the businesses and the regulation of the conditions for their entry.

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kumiko hagiwara: So this moved to where the marketization finally led to the 2,015 reform by fully engaging relevant businesses and activating the market mechanism.

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kumiko hagiwara: The capacity increased by a across my approximately 60 600,000 children driving a period of physical 2,013 to 2,070. So another campus! See! Increase is expected.

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kumiko hagiwara: So here's the change of the number of centers pre and post reform the number of the centers. look at this. The number of center run by for perfect increase by 2,000 within 5 years. So, and then that number of the risks to necessary teacher working for childcare centers that increase from 40,000 in 2,015 to 40.

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kumiko hagiwara: 430,02020, so 60 65 of the increase was from the for profit.

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kumiko hagiwara: Yes, to the small side to nursery that we're a newly introduced by the reform. 50% of okay, the nurseries run by for profit. Now, the number of child care work has working for the newly institutional institutional and child care facilities has also increased from

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kumiko hagiwara: 8,500 in 2,050 to 46,000 in 2,020.

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kumiko hagiwara: So how did they get the workforce of the size and short period of time? These are the 4 tools one is substituting with other qualifications, such as nurses and elementary school teachers, and the

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kumiko hagiwara: other qualification in medical and educational field.

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kumiko hagiwara: and the second is making the qualification for this one third relaxing the facility, possibility, criteria of fast staffing, and the fourth creating a low-level private certification to. For as a entry.

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kumiko hagiwara: since I would like to focus on a focus in on creating a low, level private certificate for easy entry. I would like to as skip this

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kumiko hagiwara: these slice.

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kumiko hagiwara: So

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kumiko hagiwara: the 2,015 reform introduced a low-level private certificate or childcare assistance. So as activation, a local personnel with a rich experience and childcare for the childcare label force, child care systems are expected to work for their small size, nurseries.

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kumiko hagiwara: family day care and company supported nurseries.

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kumiko hagiwara: They are expected to work flexfully as contractors or part time employees.

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kumiko hagiwara: The number of the trainees jumping from 18,000 to 47, the 1,000 in the physical 20 16, just one year.

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kumiko hagiwara: So this is a trading problem for the child care assistant. you remember that training and education I was a registered nurse or teaches

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kumiko hagiwara: On the contrary, training for the child care system can be completed in 10 days.

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kumiko hagiwara: So you want it. This lower certificate.

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kumiko hagiwara: the actually, the businesses have been asking for a new certificate of the assassinated nursery teacher in 2,007.

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kumiko hagiwara: Pasuna is one of the largest Tempest staffing company in Japan.

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kumiko hagiwara: It explained their proposal as follows, here's a quote. We propose the associate nurser teacher as as a measure to utilize housewives with the child railing experience. We consider the new qualification with lower the hurdle, for housewives get into childcare sector with less than 3 months of training.

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kumiko hagiwara: The train at the proposal eventually became the certificate of a childcare assistant. and also

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kumiko hagiwara: the business also claimed equal pay for equal work for the child. Care assistance, he said. Here's the quote the pro the from the Mr. Kamazaki, the president of the National Council of small side nurseries that is set up

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kumiko hagiwara: a coding. According to the 25 reform. he says.

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kumiko hagiwara: especially in the case of a small nurseries, childcare assistance perform the same work as the right student risk and nursery teachers. If this is the case, I would like to ask whether it is correct that the official wages are completed, different and low, even though they perform the same work.

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kumiko hagiwara: It is not for the pay equity, it is not for the social justice, it is because the subsidy amount of the parents includes the wage of the staff.

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kumiko hagiwara: The official price of a childcare assistant wage affects their business

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kumiko hagiwara: so creating a workforce.

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kumiko hagiwara: a workforce for childcare market the coast that they lose dilution or a distinctive distinctiveness of to a teacher in 2 ways. First, is overlapping expertise of the jurisdiction or other district other qualification, second, is the creation of occupation, like hierarchy and childcare.

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kumiko hagiwara: for now some of the some of the professionals classified as professionals, some are are classified as service workers.

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kumiko hagiwara: so again, they are dropped in this in the question, what distinguish them from us?

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kumiko hagiwara: probably you are all probably wonders wondering if there are any oppositions against the childcare assistance.

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Okay.

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kumiko hagiwara: yes.

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kumiko hagiwara: there are nest and also shares from to child child an association of nursing teachers and the occupation groups and the Union opposed.

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kumiko hagiwara: However, they did not become a you know I did powerful opposition force.

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kumiko hagiwara: One of the reason is that though kick occupational groups keep the line with a trade union.

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kumiko hagiwara: Another reason is that the occupational groups of the nursery teacher now occupies the highest position in the occupational hierarchy in a childcare. It's kind of

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kumiko hagiwara: satisfactory

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kumiko hagiwara: effect

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kumiko hagiwara: for the night straight teachers

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kumiko hagiwara: instead. the National Association of Nursery Teacher is doing 2 things right now. One is the development of a private accreditation system to distinguish them from the childcare assistant and other qualification through their own training programs.

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kumiko hagiwara: Another is a quote-quisite acquisition of a new certificate called social work. As for its child and family welfare.

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kumiko hagiwara: this is for it. They are basically. This is for the certificate of the qualified social workers in principle.

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kumiko hagiwara: but also nursery teachers are also eligible for this certificate with a 4 year, 4 year experience and the completion of the 100 h course.

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kumiko hagiwara: So it is interesting the categorization as a social worker and the hierarchy within the same occupation.

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kumiko hagiwara: They are the elements they once denied and based on their idea of professionals.

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So in summary right now.

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kumiko hagiwara: oh, let's focus here the for profit. Child sector now has

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kumiko hagiwara: access to types of childcare work work as through the market, one is less trained, but affordable female workforce. One of the other consists of your work, as with additional certification, to view the parents and consumers.

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kumiko hagiwara: So this is my conclusion. Closing remarks

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kumiko hagiwara: in the pursuit of a professional identity. Qualified nurser teachers eventually embraced the occupational hierarchy and assimilated into social work.

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kumiko hagiwara: Wouldn't the compromise, the a sense of being a core for nurseries

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kumiko hagiwara: under a supervision of call for nursery teacher, as social worker would child care work be reduced to a job that anyone any woman can do.

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kumiko hagiwara: So. I think their professional projects is now at them per se, and they are dropped of the national professionalization

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kumiko hagiwara: to address that, to address the put it, political fragmentation. What's our share of workforce that quote focus should be on demanding the democratization or to it work and the full strength democracy in the works. That's why that's my

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kumiko hagiwara: Thank you very much for your time.

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Yes.

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So.

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Isla. yes, you can just start.

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Lara Maestripieri: Okay. do you see my slide?

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Yes.

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Lara Maestripieri: okay, perfect.

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Lara Maestripieri: So Hello. My name is, and I will present the a case on the Every child who the question in care in Barcelona, I guess. Well, this paper is with me, my colleague Rachel, and I guess that this case will talk a lot with the 2 cases that we have just presented.

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Actually,

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Lara Maestripieri: the story that I will tell is exactly the opposite of the Japanese case. So I would show you

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Lara Maestripieri: what are the intention and things of professionalization among the workers, that a among the early childhood, education and care educators that work in a social Enormity project in Barcelona.

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Lara Maestripieri: First of all, I guess that we are all familiar with the concept of Professor Nazis as Wellanski. and this concept actually is based on a series of requirements that the profession should comply in order to be called as a professional.

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and actually

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Lara Maestripieri: in the most

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Lara Maestripieri: classical theory of profession. If a profession does not comply with any of this requirement. It is called semi-profession or a proto profession.

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Lara Maestripieri: Actually, if we so, the distinction between profession and proud of semi profession. There is a strong gender bias by which a family size procession, like the childhood, education, and care, are not usually considered a full profession.

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Lara Maestripieri: with the transformation of the new profession. And then the approach. The idea was more focusing about to the professional project, to the definition of jurisdiction, and in

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Lara Maestripieri: determining what was the logic of work organization behind it. Actually, the stake that we're making this paper is that the especially in our context, like the contemporary one in which the change is determined by the newly, but at least some actually put in

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Lara Maestripieri: put in question. Really the capacity of professionalism.

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Lara Maestripieri: Consider that like that, to understand what is the new logic work? we will like to develop a definition profession that is based over a discourse. What does it means that

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Lara Maestripieri: professionally zoom is not any more credential based requirement. But it's based over this course that define what it

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Lara Maestripieri: it needs to be a good professional in a special activity that is, of course, share across a group.

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Lara Maestripieri: and in this case professionalization is not any more the institutional process by which you acquire.

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Lara Maestripieri: a definition Well, a recognition on your work. But the a certain of these Scottish scores of the being the good professional, but the general of society, so that you had to come as as a competent

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Lara Maestripieri: work in In this case, I'm both to finish using protein from public regulation and institutionalization. Why this is important. This is important, because, studying the case of a chick, especially in Barcelona, and especially in this such an enormous care project.

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Lara Maestripieri: it emerges that the more than considering them a product of professionals. we should consider them an emerging professional, using different mechanism of recognition that this courses actually structure as a counterprofessionally professionalization and do it in which they

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Lara Maestripieri: reject the idea of formula, recognizing the

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Lara Maestripieri: they competence and claim for alternative sources of legitimacy. And not only

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Lara Maestripieri: so. this paper is even by 2 research question, basically, what are the characteristic of professionalism in this very special group

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Lara Maestripieri: of educators. So what that the challenges that their discourses make to our conception of professionalization.

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Lara Maestripieri: So we selected Casey's 3 cases, basically the project. Our. It's by the Koreanza, Free Education Nursery and groups the

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Lara Maestripieri: and they are all characterized by the fact that they are managed directly by citizen. They have a new red zone and cooperative governments by which parents and educators are at the same level, organizing the project.

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Lara Maestripieri: and that I usually alternative to the public and private offer available in the city. This is based on our project, which is called the Premium Project, that we collected to 14 interviews with team 4 months, 50, semi-structory interview with professional working in this project, and 18 in that interview with Mother

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Lara Maestripieri: involved in this project, and we apply, you know not, is based on a ground material approach. So just a few words about this 3 type of project. They are educator in their houses. They offer preschool education directly by opening the home and then welcoming. Now normally between one and 4 children. Very educated parents have.

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Lara Maestripieri: oh, sorry balance, and one to one relationship with the educators. Sometimes they share food preparation, but they are not really heavily involved in the organization of these groups.

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Lara Maestripieri: while, despite the Koreans are our project that are led by educators, normally they are not in a private house. They are organized in private spaces that are are rented through associational cooperatives, and parents are evaluating board in the management and the logistics. So they are.

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Lara Maestripieri: with the cleaning of the space, with the food preparation, in organizing the events and in the assembly they are invited and required to participate in the governance and taking the decision.

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Lara Maestripieri: The only things on which

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Lara Maestripieri: parents and do not have a say is the on the creation of the pedagogical project, which is still an exclusive competence of the educators. The most radical project is the groups, the Creans. In this case it is a parent like project, so parent associate in order to organize

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Lara Maestripieri: a childcare for the children. They can rent or also combine a space, and they work normally with the association or informal group.

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Lara Maestripieri: and they are the toators who participate in the charter of their children. So they just make shift

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Lara Maestripieri: and they grow them collectively. normally they are an educator. And this educator is, Hi, actually subordinated to the decision taken by the parents on the

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Lara Maestripieri: on the educational approach.

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Lara Maestripieri:  in the context of Barcelona. So well, of course, mostly most of the children goes to public school or to private nursery, but they, as in Japan they have a a shortage of places available, but at the same time the request is made by her parents to have more diversity in the service provided by children

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Lara Maestripieri: erez Agmoni. And this diversity is also the combined in the last really childhood education plan of the of the city, based on the fact that the parents have the right to participate if they want, in the education of the children. And one

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Lara Maestripieri: became part of this community that is responsible for the growth of the children. So there is an evidence that the municipality is open to innovation in this sense. But the problem is that they work in a framework of what is called a legality.

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Lara Maestripieri: because this type of project are not prohibited, but at the same time, and not regulated. So they are not really recognized as an official training cent

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Lara Maestripieri: When we analyze the professionalism that is proposed, the discourses of professionalism, it is proposed by this educator those who work there.

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Lara Maestripieri: but educators and parents They are mostly based on the principle of the free education. So they are against institutionalization of various more children, and in favor of creating communities of care in which educators and parents and all the primary network of the children participate to their education in care. So the most important thing for them is the creation on a bond, on an emotional one.

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Lara Maestripieri: between indicators, the in funds, and the so the center of the interest to the center of the professionalism is not about the training that they have received in a school, but their emotional capacity to create bonds, so they do not feel teacher, but they say that they are facilitated to let the children learn

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Lara Maestripieri: within a community of care. So in order to participate and to become indicator. In this project there is no formal training required, but what is required is an active participation of a movement. That is what promoted by Madison further, and look at to rent activities that organize more events, any formal training in which people can share they experience, and that can learn from each other.

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Lara Maestripieri: So you can see there one is sort of interview. It is very clear what the the person want to say we do not teach, we all of them to learn. So I told them about myself and some this process. So they are really considering themselves not a part

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Lara Maestripieri: of educate or well, and then to cater as a teacher in this sense. as I said, the the point is some they not? They make the loving capacity, so they

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Lara Maestripieri: transformative. Experience of being mother of father makes you automatically competent to be involved in the education and care of these children.

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Lara Maestripieri: Mit Ctl. And, as I said, it's it's not about the formal training it is about participating in these communities, one.

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Lara Maestripieri: And, as you see, in the last aspect of the interview. this is the representative of one of the most important association that is behind this project. He's an activist. He he became father, he became part of a group, the career so, and then afterwards he stayed there to to go on as a professional. In this sense.

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Lara Maestripieri: erez Agmoni, and he he was trained as an engineer, and when I asked him if he would feel competent for making this, he says one.

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Lara Maestripieri: I never done a specific training. I learned how to do it through expansive, through experience, by talking with many educators and family. And so this was the type of training

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Lara Maestripieri: that I received. A. Of course this situation creates the condition for conflicts that occur in the professionally and inter professionals. What do I mean? Basically, between the 2 most important members of the community of care. So parents supposed to educate us. Educator, of course, feel competent for the fact that they have been standing before

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Lara Maestripieri: entering this project. But at the same time parents consider, they say, more competent because they have been passed through the transformative speaking, so becoming father's and mother, which some something that not necessarily it look at. Some have passed through.

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Lara Maestripieri: At the same time there is conflict with other educational services that perceive that this our potential competitors in the same market, but at the same time that they do not respect to the same form of requirements, to that they have to respect in terms of credentialism in terms of what is required for our space to become an ourer.

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Lara Maestripieri: So

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Lara Maestripieri: actually, this create the challenges for the professionalization. As I said, that there is no obligation by low to have a specific training, mostly because they are not recognized as educational activities. But

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Lara Maestripieri: the lack of a regulation that the software also prevents that this activities are hard to organize as effectively education activity.

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Lara Maestripieri: There are 2 main associations that are in that organize this professional from there is the that to organize mostly the. So the child Manders that are put in pressure on public bodies to have a regulation, while on the same time the other because decision, which is called the shell that organize the spy and the group. The Koreanza do not at all wants

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Lara Maestripieri: this recording regulation because they do not want to be

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Lara Maestripieri: impeded to to innovate. Is that the way in which they work in their space by having to comply with format requirements. In any case, the to a session do not represent all the activists, and the the registration in this association is not mandatory. To open our space and to be able to practice

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Lara Maestripieri: At the same time. The allegality status creates numerous consequences in terms of economy can bol all of economic balances of this project because they don't want to see public resources as an educational transit at Center. The families that off to 40 centers do not receive aid for their childcare because they are not sending them to our community eyes and a knowledge a training center

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Lara Maestripieri: E. C.

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As educators. In any case, this does not seem

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Lara Maestripieri: a problem for them. If you see in this extract of the interview,

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Lara Maestripieri: what is important for these people is to keep

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Lara Maestripieri: to maintain loyalty to their principle in all the education and care should be performed. They are very straight to duration between children and the teachers, no more than 2 or 3 children for for very young people.

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Lara Maestripieri: and so they prefer in this case, in the case of this project to to an announce to an increase of salary, because they did not do not want to to have too much children, because this could make in in crisis. They principle of reduce ratio between the children and profession.

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Lara Maestripieri: So just to conclude their discourse is again, since, the to to, to, to, to an organization, into phones, because they do not want to to appear as an institutionalized school for children, but at the same time they do not want to have really a formal recognition in order to protect the way in which they consider themselves professionalism

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Lara Maestripieri: and a professional, and that the way which this professionalism is for M. Through this, in formal communities of there.

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Lara Maestripieri: as I said, that professionalism is based on pre-education, not on credential in fostering and Northern communities of care which are participated by parents and educators. At the same time, despite creating the con, the the condition for intra and inter professional conflicts. The fact that they are not regulated creates a situation of illegality.

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Lara Maestripieri: Some of the projects are happy with this, because they are very They have a total freedom on how to organize their project, and now to organize their pedagogical project to the organization. The governance of this space.

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Lara Maestripieri: and in general there is no consensus We among the biggest association and the most important figures of this movement overlapping for a regulation, and this

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Lara Maestripieri: in this sense, but this has a stronger negative consequences of the come economic capacity of the process. So I guess that we are, in case that can fit to the definition of this kind of professionalism, a professionalization. At this

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Lara Maestripieri: the all of them mostly show an opposition to an institutional high school base model of professionalism, they are condensed that

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Lara Maestripieri: being a good professional means, participating in this community of care, and that regulation might impede that the capacity of this community of care to create

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Lara Maestripieri: a new new professional through the informal road, learning that they could place there.

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Lara Maestripieri: So thank you very much. This was the case of Barcelona, and this is a paper that is written by me and by the

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thank you very much.

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This.

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Lara Maestripieri: so I guess I don't. Yes, if you can be there so that I can see you because it's not. I cannot see. I don't know how you want to to organize the question and answer to this session.

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first, I just want to ask, are there any questions? Do you have any any question? No, you do not. We have our volunteers. We are not alone. Yes, I myself have a lot of question. But I I just want to start. Chris.

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yeah, yeah, okay, so I I start with I just did. I collect, you know. Leave all my questions. I start with one question. Both to Comico and Cousa I'm

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I I just expand a bit on that. It concerns the educational system and the the the idea of the educational system. In in Hong Kong. There also is Japan. I don't. I'm not really familiar with that, but I think it's important. I just want to give you an example. I live in Germany, and I have

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2 children, and I'm how to say very francophone. I I love, I I speak French, and my children were in a

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French

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matanell, I to say nursery? So

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yes. First question is, I see that there are.

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tip quite different guiding ideas in the German educational system. As to child care, or even early child care and the French system in the German system.

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Except for language learning. Now the the main idea is parenting to to look after children, and to to give them the opportunity to become themselves, so to say, just to facilitate the development. And the idea in the French system completely is different. They want to to teach

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and educate citizens from the early beginning. Not in this, or however, you have to to have this border between early childhood care, and until 2 years, or something like that, and then they start to become 3 by get into the school system, so to say the French

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nurses system up to starting at 3 or 3 years is a pre-school system, and this.

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therefore, the teachers or the educators, are clearly acknowledged as teachers, and

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the other O, to say phenomenal, is that they do have a very high number of children per teacher. From the German point of view of this is

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not acceptable. You need, let's say, 5 One teach educator per 5 children in. In, in the, in the French system you have 20. You call one educator. So, but it functions way. It's a system that

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let's say, is there? Since 200? Yes, if I know how to do it. You can. You can criticize that. That's not children like enough. But for me, when my, our children was okay, so really, okay. And and now I just want to know how much is your, are your stories

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embedded in the educational system of your on the guiding idea of education and a child caring in your in your countries. I I I think, but I I don't. I I just I I do not really know. But I just hypothalize, perhaps in in Hong Kong.

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wages are aren't high in any way, so I don't know. I don't really know. So so you can you. You can think about prophetization, because, if if you do another job that wouldn't count. As to a salary As to the sellers in Japan. It's it's already out to say, a high salary

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high salary society, or how to say the wages are quite higher than in in Hong Kong or in China. And yes, yes, the the idea, perhaps, or the guiding idea of the education system, seems not

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really to educate. But I I thought, the Japanese is the extremist who is a good started. But so now I let you to answer the question, Who who wants to you? These are you?

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Kumiko? You want to answer first.

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kumiko hagiwara: you are before. Oh, my, I okay, I'm

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kumiko hagiwara: I have I don't have a good command of English, and they It doesn't come much spontaneously. However, I'm trying to Firstly

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kumiko hagiwara:  as as showing a slide. Japanese nursery teachers are very much used to be. But I'm much proud of

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kumiko hagiwara: the ideal pedagogy. It's not just about the education. It's not just about the care

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kumiko hagiwara: they see a child care as the holistic system of the child care and education through the experience

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kumiko hagiwara: of caring and be cared so. it's not quite an education. It's not just a childcare

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kumiko hagiwara: and what to say it it the guiding idea of the educational system, the governance is a government. Do they also see education as a holistic task, or to basic education. So there is another. So that's the that's the field of a child care. So the it used to at the child care is under the controllable Welfare and the Welfare Ministry.

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kumiko hagiwara: and it we have a bifurcation system for A/C. So the education is the mutter of the Ministry of education. It means kindergarten.

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kumiko hagiwara: So kindergarten accept the children from 3 to 5.

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kumiko hagiwara: On the contrary, the child care center, based on the welfare law. Accept the children from Sarah to 5, and those children are

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kumiko hagiwara: having a kind of so-called pedagogy.

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kumiko hagiwara: As I said. it's not quite the educational system, but the child care teachers, not 3 teachers, things the their practice as the pedagogy which includes

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kumiko hagiwara: include the education and the care.

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kumiko hagiwara: I'm I'm answering your question. Yes, it's a bit clearer for me now. So okay, and also there are some I have to add,

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kumiko hagiwara: the guideline of the kindergarten and the gun guideline of the talk against that, said the centers are quite similar.

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kumiko hagiwara: So we have a bifocation system. But we kind of practicing our our practice is kind of similar each other. Thank you.

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Yeah. I think. in the Hong Kong cases. This quite share the the the similar characteristics with Japanese cases. We also emphasize care and education.

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and also in a holistic way, so and and also government. Now. We are what we guidance. The the early childhood education in Hong Kong is much from the top down approach

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so The governments or these society set! Our Roots! To guiding the educations, so almost the kindergarten teachers will follow the guidelines.

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but As as The Japanese case! We share both care and also education.

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And we also need a teacher also have well prepared teachers to to enter their primary school.

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So they also. So I think it's yeah, half of, I think, if you can, the proportion

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teachers are also care. children, and also provide their education

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in normative way. So thank you.

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Do you want to.

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Lara Maestripieri: Yes, I have a a couple of questions for both the kris and kumiko

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Lara Maestripieri: The first question is related to the case of Hong Kong. It is not clear to me how it works. So if it is publicly founded, or if it is privately organized because you took as examples for your Codoretics, all countries that organize childcare mostly based on the market.

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Lara Maestripieri: So Uk, Australia and the United States do not really have any universal system of child care. So I was wondering what is the model in your cases. So it is a one that is based on us

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Lara Maestripieri: publicly, provision of care, or is it is based on the market. So

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Lara Maestripieri: family, by these services by private centers?

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Yeah, for your information in Hong Kong, most kindergartens are run by the non-profit organization, and also

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some percent. just a few percent are run by private organization. So also in the 3 years ago Hong Kong, also home government also subsidized. As a free education. So That means children. They are noted to

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pay at all for their education.

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Lara Maestripieri: Yeah, but this is not a contradiction. I mean, you use the for the development of code of ethics.

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Lara Maestripieri: a model which is totally based on the market. So why didn't you not choose a for instance, from Germany or France, or Even Spain or Italy, that are based

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Lara Maestripieri: on that

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Lara Maestripieri: publicly subsidized system, and mostly based on for instance, the the French model that the Aldo was citing before it is,

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Lara Maestripieri: mostly run through a non-profit organization. So there is a system which is based on the publicly, directly managed by the public state chill in our series and kindergarten. But also there is a very important role of nonprofit organization. And this I said, it is the reference for child care in Europe. I will say, that is the most important model.

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Yeah. in Hong Kong also, although those kindergartens are run by nonprofit organization. But they also the market marketization impact also steals effect, because the parents also can. you know, choose which kindergartens.

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So there's also, yeah, there. So it's also parent effect on choosing which kindergartens for their children.

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Lara Maestripieri: Okay, thank you. I have a question also for the Japanese case.

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Lara Maestripieri: what you you say that there is a sort of segmentation between 2 different role in the in when providing child care. So there are professionally in the publicly own and manage institution that are recognized certified that higher salary and this, lowly, certified

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Lara Maestripieri: house life working in this new market, the base, the center. So I was wondering if you can comment about the gender differentiation of this domain. So if there is a percentage of men that is providing this type of Job

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Lara Maestripieri: in both of the 2 figures, or if it is a totally feminine feminized

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Lara Maestripieri: feminized profession, and it is quite interesting that there are certain resemblance between the the announcement that you make and the fact that the in my case

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Lara Maestripieri: this activist says that it is the becoming mother. Could that make you confident for for this work?

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Lara Maestripieri: because actually it, the fact that they call for us wife, that have previous experience of childcare.

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Lara Maestripieri: make them, in a sort of sense, qualified for applying for this training, so that they are not requiring credential. They are requiring the fact that these people at previously had the children. So I would like to a comment on this point.

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kumiko hagiwara: Thank you very much for the very important questions. I am very much interested in in your presentation, too, because it's like you know. sci-fi side by side. What what is that? I spectrum? So Japan is another spectrum. So anyway, first and first question, of course, the child care field is quite feminized.

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kumiko hagiwara: it's some kind of common trend the Oecd countries. In our case, 98% the child work workforce is women.

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kumiko hagiwara: So there there is quite limited. But the the case, in case of the public run. Child Care Center. They have a a bit of

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kumiko hagiwara: like

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kumiko hagiwara: for 5 or 6 of mail teachers are working. So anyway, this is quite a feminized

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kumiko hagiwara: market.

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kumiko hagiwara: So another another point

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kumiko hagiwara: the so at the salary.

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kumiko hagiwara: the other wasting Actually, the

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kumiko hagiwara: the wage of the nursery teachers were improved in 1970 s. Through 1990 s.

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kumiko hagiwara: However.

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kumiko hagiwara: at the beginning of the as the beginning of the marketization the wage was cut

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kumiko hagiwara: and it gets decreased.

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kumiko hagiwara: So actually

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kumiko hagiwara: the wages, some in in small municipalities.

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kumiko hagiwara: The wage of the public nursery teachers are quite equivalent to that that of

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kumiko hagiwara: even the childcare assistance in the urban area.

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kumiko hagiwara: It's it's it's it, it developed, developed very unevenly. So That's another thing that I

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kumiko hagiwara: there are. There are used to be the activists of like in Spain in 19 sixties and seventies in Japan, too. So the mothers and fathers got together for the for making the community of child care

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kumiko hagiwara: it. It. It gradually developed into the

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kumiko hagiwara:  accredited child care centers

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kumiko hagiwara: and the institutionalized.

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kumiko hagiwara: And again, in 1,900 ninetys. There are some active trend of mothers who used to be a working woman.

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kumiko hagiwara: They were cut off because of their What is the child rail link.

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kumiko hagiwara: They have to quit their job and all that, and they push it back into into the community, and they again forms

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kumiko hagiwara: their active group

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kumiko hagiwara: for a child, for children.

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kumiko hagiwara: and they are making the site for the

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kumiko hagiwara: working mothers and the mothers needs help, and so they do not have any credentials. They don't have any education background in the child care or the Welfare education.

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kumiko hagiwara: and that childcare Support group is now institutionalized under the by the 2,015 reform, and they are now funded.

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kumiko hagiwara: And it's a very much question. It's a it's a very kind of problematic things because they are losing kind of hash in?

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kumiko hagiwara: Or the what is that there?

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kumiko hagiwara: The feeling of professionalism that you mentioned in Spain are now losing? They are like funded, and they very much like a professional organization or like a businesses.

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kumiko hagiwara: So they're now managing the programs and all that. So

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kumiko hagiwara: in in that term. This Pain case is very interesting things for me. Thank you very much. Am I answering your question correctly? I I don't know. Yeah. Sorry for my command of English.

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kumiko hagiwara: No, no, it was perfect. I understood the very well. And if you want after the session, we can talk by email because I think that we have a lot to do exchange from this voice.

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kumiko hagiwara: I'm going to send my email so we can exchange some information.

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So thank you very much

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may stop if I the second large question that good concern your presentation, Dara, and yes, and all the others as to

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what to say. The phenomenon I would like to address. It's there are contrast or the relationship between professionalism and volume. Television.

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it's often not really good studied in in the sociology of professions. But I myself, I've done a lot of studies on volunteers and particularly in in Germany and in Switzerland, and many other kinds, particularly also in the Uk and us. There's a really strong voluntary community, and

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in many, many, or for many professions you have not only the professionals, but you also have the volunteers, particularly in hospitals. You have a lot of a lot of volunteers. Many hospitals wouldn't work without all the volunteers, and of course, also in childcare there are volunteers, and very often

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the borders are not so clear. And I'm really questioning if it's a question of

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social innovation, or is it volunteering? Because if

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if I remind, I'm I'm not, I'm old, but not as all. But in in the 1960 s. In in in 50, 60 S. In Germany, and I think also in Italy it was. It was an institution that there were mothers who took care of

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the children of the neighborhood, so it was clear it was not. It was not really formalized, but it was institutionalized because there was always

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one mother who took care of a lot of children, and perhaps life in Japan, and the urbanization is hindering to to uphold, to maintain such structures. But in

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but even in cities you have a is a lot of such tractors, and Barcelona is a specific case. I'm also doing research on mouse and studies and Barcelona, because with the Catalonian study as a city, and it's it always tries to prove that it is different from from Madrid and and the rest of Spain has a lot of foreign terrorism, in, in, in every, in every area, in in space.

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in, in, in Barcelona. So for me, I see a lot of urban projects driven by

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by the engagement of of citizens in Barcelona, where they are, or, to say, the the model city for civic engagement, one of the more in in Europe. So for me, that's not surprising that there's also there are also initiatives in childcare. Why not where we are volunteering, where there is even a

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and an initiative to how to say, not only to coordinate all that, but also to to to measure the the volume of

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T. A. Work in our. So there are institutions that show the number of hours they may have received in volunteer work. So

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Barcelona is I I wouldn't see that as a specific to say a contribution by, it's it's another example of volunteerism in in in in in a Barcelona. Sorry. And I'm I'm really asking very often the the relationship between professionals and

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and volunteers is not so easy particular in not so professionalized occupations. in particular, in social social work in social work. And now I've I've started that. The the relationship is often very, very how to say critical, because.

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yes, the social work. I think that's the volunteers take away. Take over the work they they want to do. because there is not such a profit. Professional distinction, and with everything of codes and and everything. So then they have to fear it's less in the in the more professionalized areas like law or something like that. But

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in addition, if I just sorry I've lived in Switzerland and in Switzerland, it's even more specific. You have. You have professionals as volunteers. So in every community there is

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often there are tasks that are done, delivered by by professional volunteers once a week. So with a professional planner, and on Wednesdays he is doing anything for the community, and this is in many communities in Central Europe. So

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of course, now I've seen from that point of view.

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China is a

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to say.

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tasks with competing interests and traditions, and it's not so easy to formalize. The French have found. Because I just I just want to to remind you the French case, because

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these are teachers. These are States. Teach us the the educators in the kindergarten, and they may have a state, or to say they, the education is very highly appreciated. So for me, even if you say it's a holistic view of education.

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perhaps it's not enough profiled. So it in the French. It's very clear it's the task is to educate citizens. And this is this is highly demanding. So you have to have high qualification. There are many men in the. It's it's of course it's feminized. But there are a lot of male teachers, even for 3 year or

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children. I think it's it's. It's also the guiding idea that is

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a bit diffuse in the other systems. so that's anything is possible. And if anything is possible nothing is paid. So yes, I I just want to have an answer, a a reflection from every one of you on on the role on the whole of volunteers, because it's not a professional. It's a one thing, and they don't want to become professionalized.

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I I will start to from the French cases, because I think that is a reference model for all of us.

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Lara Maestripieri: it is true what you said about the the I call my turn now. But the French case is not made only by a call matter now, because you have at least

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Lara Maestripieri: 2 others, 2 other models

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Lara Maestripieri: that that are concurrent, the one which is based on civil base association that works pretty similar to the care groups that I started. The only difference is that they are institutionalized and recognized as part of the system. So they received some cities, but

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Lara Maestripieri: apart from that, they work exactly the same with parents who appear in the functioning

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Lara Maestripieri: of the of the projects.

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Lara Maestripieri: And this is something that is a present for certain families, because certain families do not want to send their

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Lara Maestripieri: every child in a school system. As you said, there are.

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Lara Maestripieri: other ways of seeing apart. a pedagogical project that is based on parenting more than education, so I guess that the the capacity of the French system is to offer

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Lara Maestripieri: the bolt. and people might hope for one or another, depending on what they consider

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Lara Maestripieri: childcare to be idle in their case and plus. There is also the possibility to use

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Lara Maestripieri: a crash, which is exactly the model that you were saying before in one of the model that I studied, in

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that there are

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Lara Maestripieri: mothers that accept children in their houses. The different is again, that it is institutionalized and recognized by the system.

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Lara Maestripieri: so the family can opt for the 3 different alternatives, the school base education, the project-based education, or the own based education, depending on what they consider cereal for all their children.

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Lara Maestripieri: and regarding the point on volunteering and the well, I mean.

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Lara Maestripieri: I think, that we are always talking the same. So probably what the high, cool social innovation is exactly what you value in the fact that there are people providing volunteering work in the function specific organization, I mean, the point is about the democratizing welfare services and

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allow the users

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Lara Maestripieri: to participate directly, not only in the simple provision, but also in, I think, say

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Lara Maestripieri: on how this is organized.

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Lara Maestripieri: I mean, I think, that the the most subtle difference in using one concept or an area is that the social innovation puts

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Lara Maestripieri: highlight more. So puts more in under a focus the fact that

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Lara Maestripieri: a user participate and also have a saying, the definition of the services, and I guess that this is what is also interesting in the case of person.

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And what about the role of volunteering in the Japanese or Hong Kong case

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No. 2.

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I would say. in Hong Kong. There's not much volunteers. are working in the kindergarten sections, and also I think just you upon a a good refraction for me is

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 And

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actually we are in

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to educate. What I mean

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is, how? what education! The position of education is much depend on how society To give it a post. Of positions. So in Hong Kong case. We regarded the education is important, but not for the kindergarten education.

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but it's more they more likely to invest education, invest their invest their resources into the primary or secondary.

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So I think, yes, how the society put the resources, or how they aim as to position. The early travel is a key. Yeah, right?

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kumiko hagiwara: Okay, thank you. I I

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kumiko hagiwara: I don't have any confidence to answer a Clery. But what I can say is from the perspective of labor policy and market and equality, gender equality.

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kumiko hagiwara:  if well, There are lots of volunteers in childcare sector, and the elderly care sector in Japan.

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kumiko hagiwara: They are, of course, volunteered for it the beta care and the community buildings, and so forth. This is very important.

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kumiko hagiwara: however. in Japan there is a big wage difference between women and a man.

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kumiko hagiwara: So if the allocate of the qualification of the profession. it's not working for the better wages for women.

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kumiko hagiwara: What are they going to do? Are they? Are volunteers. No pay.

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kumiko hagiwara: So In Japanese society

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kumiko hagiwara: volunteers are almost woman in care. Sector.

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kumiko hagiwara: They are paid for it. Nothing. They played nothing. They the paid for that they are, they are paid nothing.

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kumiko hagiwara: So if the qualification is not working for that sector. Women are easily for

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kumiko hagiwara: into the private Sophia. as

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kumiko hagiwara: the as housewives, or so called volunteers in the sector. so What I would like to say is a volunteer is important, and it's a kind of

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kumiko hagiwara: from a problematic issue. When you think about the professionals or the in the, in the relation of professionalism.

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kumiko hagiwara: how we buy in Japanese case, if we put on the focus or we we we okay, if the policy

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kumiko hagiwara: policy itself, asking

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kumiko hagiwara: women's to be a volunteer for their child child care sector, or the elderly sector because of the shortage of the workforce.

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kumiko hagiwara: So I'm like.

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kumiko hagiwara: It's a kind of different perspective. That's however, I I think it's very important for for for us to think about volunteer. Thank you.

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So now you have more questions, otherwise I have no I I think that we can call it here. The the session was very good. I think that we have a very important and interesting discussion, and also I think that over there it's quite late. So you needed to enjoy the nighting member.

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Lara Maestripieri: thank you very much all the for your participation as a chair, but also as a provider of questions. So thank you very much, because they were very interesting, and they? They animated to the discussion. Very well, and I thank you, Kumiko, increase up for a participant to this session, and we really hope that we can go on discussing and professionalism in early education and childcare, because, as I said at the beginning.

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Lara Maestripieri: it's a domain that has been a bit forgotten. And I think that what Kumi could just said about the fact that it's provided by women and not sufficiently consider it a work.

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Lara Maestripieri: I guess that plays a role in this. So thank you very much to all of you

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kumiko hagiwara: from the pad. Thank you.

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Thank you.

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kumiko hagiwara: Bye, bye, bye, bye.