WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:14.969
 Okay, so it is. it's 7 30 now, and I want to welcome everybody to this. special session. the title of the session is charisma populism, or charismatic Populism.

2
00:00:14.970 --> 00:00:33.609
We have 4 very interesting papers lined up for a very interesting speakers who are appearing from around the world. and so it's quite a living up to the to the name of the International Sociological Association here. so we're going to be

3
00:00:33.610 --> 00:00:59.940
going in the order of the program and and about 15 min per per presentation. And and then we'll have about 20 min for discussion and questions so people on zoom feel free to to ask your question in the chat box, but you can also, ask with with your face and voice as well. So

4
00:01:00.090 --> 00:01:23.469
First up we have Lorenzo Viviani from the University of Pisa in Italy, and his paper is called toward a very barbarian theoretical framework on the difference between charismatic and Populist leadership. So welcome Lorenzo, the florist. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I try to share my

5
00:01:29.350 --> 00:01:30.500
Lorenzo Viviani: sure.

6
00:01:32.820 --> 00:01:34.450
Lorenzo Viviani: it's okay, can you see?

7
00:01:35.320 --> 00:01:39.090
Lorenzo Viviani: Yes, okay. So

8
00:01:39.090 --> 00:02:05.349
Lorenzo Viviani: the aim of the thank you very much. Again. And the a of my presentation is to discuss into a Bavarian political sociological perspective the topic of the differences with the different paths of personalization. And this intermediation about the top one is publicitarian is, and the the charismatic by visitorism.

9
00:02:05.370 --> 00:02:07.120
Lorenzo Viviani: So

10
00:02:07.470 --> 00:02:13.730
Lorenzo Viviani: and we can state in the why number. So if you

11
00:02:15.340 --> 00:02:16.100
okay.

12
00:02:16.860 --> 00:02:41.730
Lorenzo Viviani: okay, my question are, which are the differences between the different paths of personalization. And we know that South. Such contracts as a personalization, charisma and populism cannot be considerate, are equ equals. They are not the same.

13
00:02:41.730 --> 00:03:01.210
Lorenzo Viviani: and each of these a design properties and the facts in political and social science that doesn't originate in properties. So the problem for me is not whether or not leadership is a key issue in advance, or liberal democracies or in public. But what a leadership we are talking about!

14
00:03:01.370 --> 00:03:15.679
Lorenzo Viviani: So in the first slide in the in this slide number 3. I try to suggest for sub-typologies of leadership within the general. So of personalized leadership in democracy.

15
00:03:15.790 --> 00:03:31.099
Lorenzo Viviani: First of all, we can have a non-personalized leadership, the proper typology of leadership in a party democracy characterize it by mass.

16
00:03:31.170 --> 00:03:50.070
Lorenzo Viviani: The second, is the personalized leadership. But during ordinary times the proper model of leadership in the frame of democraticityism and in the process of changes, multiple liberal democracy from party democracy. To all this democracy.

17
00:03:50.520 --> 00:04:11.230
Lorenzo Viviani: the third type of leadership is the Populist leadership, either in ordinary and the extraordinary times or in turbulent ordinary times, and the last is there is the perspective of a charismatic leadership. So

18
00:04:11.230 --> 00:04:36.049
Lorenzo Viviani: what are they? A political, sociological frame of of which one of these different, the typologies of leadership? first of all. Briefly, I want to. observe that the perspective of a transition from party democracy to leader democracy is a topic because of sociology is so social science.

19
00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:45.980
Lorenzo Viviani: since the number theory of publicitory democracy, and we know that privacy arrangement has been a sort of lexical taboo for a large part of the last century.

20
00:04:46.020 --> 00:04:53.380
Lorenzo Viviani: just as they use of the accounts. It has been interpreted as as too close to what to return in regimes.

21
00:04:53.570 --> 00:05:11.130
Lorenzo Viviani: so, anyway. we're bad. The barrier and publicitory democracy is more properly linked to the model of democracy with the leader or leader democracy as opposed to a se for this democracy enacted by political parties as Olympic power machines.

22
00:05:11.130 --> 00:05:23.930
Lorenzo Viviani: so it is opposed to mechanized certification resulting from the primacy of bureaucracy over politics and to the bureaucratic role assumed by Parliament and following

23
00:05:23.990 --> 00:05:42.960
Lorenzo Viviani: Weber. It's a a in pluralistic democratic competition that the relationship between the performance of the leader and the personal trust of the mass of the dances is realizing, and leaders in size, power within a system provide the road to members to such

24
00:05:42.960 --> 00:06:03.239
Lorenzo Viviani: as, like the political professionals in Parliament, the parties and top member, and and so on. In other words, I want to say that the of democracy refers to a political process that all of us top down perspective in which they

25
00:06:03.410 --> 00:06:17.550
Lorenzo Viviani: The natural rule of voting is fiduciary to the leader. Democracy consists of approving, selecting it, authorizing leaders to govern the relation between leaders and cities, and provides for a broad political delegation.

26
00:06:17.710 --> 00:06:19.340
Lorenzo Viviani: So now,

27
00:06:19.460 --> 00:06:39.399
Lorenzo Viviani: what are the main features of that the other process of personalization of leaders of leadership and in particular the perspective of a pulpitism. We know that the not all form of polynomials were historically historically expressed through the personalization of leadership.

28
00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:52.859
Lorenzo Viviani: But it is not true that one of the proper characteristic of Populist in advance of democracy is the politics of personality or the policy politics for ordinary people

29
00:06:52.910 --> 00:07:03.580
Lorenzo Viviani: driving on a Portuguese perspective that requires the most most extraordinary individuals to lead the most ordinary people.

30
00:07:03.650 --> 00:07:15.799
Lorenzo Viviani: So they very haim of of the Populist leader is to cross the boundary proper to the liberal model of democracy between the spur of the person and the swear of power.

31
00:07:15.970 --> 00:07:30.970
Lorenzo Viviani: and to reimb it, the body policy merging the head leader and the body. The people of the community in the name of the holistic homogeneity of the people. So Populist.

32
00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:55.460
Lorenzo Viviani: most to our new meaning of political representation. We can also find some main correct optimistic of Populist leader and the the set of Belize believe so. Populism, we know, antagonist toward the may seem actor or liberal democracy, politicization of fear that replace rational political judgment.

33
00:07:55.490 --> 00:08:06.540
Lorenzo Viviani: reliance on pervasive with the role of intermediate bodies, moralistic and checks conception of politics. And and so

34
00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:20.379
Lorenzo Viviani: but if we want to summarize, we can see that the the Populist leadership representative selves, Populist leader, represent himself as one of us.

35
00:08:20.460 --> 00:08:31.860
Lorenzo Viviani: He thinks, Moves speaks as the same piece as the single reaction as the common man.  and in particular they

36
00:08:32.510 --> 00:08:40.280
Lorenzo Viviani: they one of the most important argument about the particularly

37
00:08:40.310 --> 00:09:06.589
Lorenzo Viviani: of this kind of leadership is the similarity. He's a new kind of political representation based on a similarity, mirroring the people and sharing with the average man's stereotypes, idiosyncrasies, no politically correct communication, the bad manners in a venom with language, and and so

38
00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:08.210
Lorenzo Viviani: so

39
00:09:08.660 --> 00:09:30.810
Lorenzo Viviani: now, ry out to my key to what are the difference between this kind of personalization of leadership and the perspective of charisma in in the Bavarian perspective? we know that the strictly link between charismatic leaders and Populist mobilization.

40
00:09:30.900 --> 00:09:35.990
Lorenzo Viviani: It's been a key feature of most contemporary theories of

41
00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:43.999
Lorenzo Viviani: Otherwise, my proposed theoretical frame of the first from the mainstream of the

42
00:09:44.070 --> 00:10:05.939
Lorenzo Viviani: because I consider the essential differences between this guy and this kind of personalization by comparing the key issues all carries my apologies so they excel, or in this of Populist leaders would seem to be interpreted in a meeting close to the to death of Charisma.

43
00:10:06.010 --> 00:10:18.610
Lorenzo Viviani: That, according to Weber, is the extraordinary quality that belongs to an individual as a gift of grace and the merits during a crisis, and the is a revolutionary force in history.

44
00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:28.079
Lorenzo Viviani: so Kara's mind is the founding resource of the type of domination that originates from the extraordinary quality of an individual

45
00:10:28.110 --> 00:10:43.349
Lorenzo Viviani: is recognized by the followers, and that forms the cultural and value platform from the radical transformation of followers. So we know the term is which have a direct, intense, effective bond with the leader.

46
00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:49.630
Lorenzo Viviani: So following this statement, the basic assumption of Populism is refuted.

47
00:10:49.650 --> 00:11:06.600
Lorenzo Viviani: Since Karen is not, doesn't belong to the ordinary individual. it does not configure, or either a standing in the same level as their follower as but itself, stand as a solution, the prizes gaining recognition from those

48
00:11:06.620 --> 00:11:08.240
Lorenzo Viviani: for nowhere.

49
00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:21.069
Lorenzo Viviani: So let's try to see the K dimensions and related difference between this slide that is, try to summarize in this live

50
00:11:21.170 --> 00:11:48.259
Lorenzo Viviani:  point. The difference between crisis leadership, qualities, politicization, politician of emotions, leadership styles ideology, political representation and the political parties, and the role in the political parties of the India. First of all, the price is starting. The the very and charismatic process is presented as X. Extraordinary situation

51
00:11:48.260 --> 00:12:02.840
Lorenzo Viviani: that generates both anxiety and the enthusiasts, and characterize as a janitor of the radical failure of the system in which enemy this integration invest the political, social, and personal dimension.

52
00:12:02.870 --> 00:12:09.030
Lorenzo Viviani: So this is the politics of the extraordinary, of the personalization of charismatic leader.

53
00:12:09.060 --> 00:12:20.359
Lorenzo Viviani: and it refers to the legitimations of prey 16 symbolic, political, institutionally cultural order. So on the country. The prices in which probably arise

54
00:12:20.500 --> 00:12:25.529
Lorenzo Viviani: can emerge at any stage of the relationship between modernization and democracy

55
00:12:25.640 --> 00:12:46.550
Lorenzo Viviani: because of change in the social basis of established parties or emerging emerging modes of democracy. They treat in the traditional political representation without the reaction of the overall democratic system of the overall institution. why, it is that, being empirical observer, that Populist feeds

56
00:12:46.550 --> 00:13:05.380
Lorenzo Viviani: all phrases of that economic and social prices, it can It can not as a service itself, it can either, even in it. It's crazy. Originate crisis, create a climate of remin it danger and politicize this trust towards established with politics.

57
00:13:05.810 --> 00:13:19.369
Lorenzo Viviani: also, a Populist crisis doesn't exclusively require an exertion of shock. but can be created from within. It could be manipulated and socially represented by the same Populist leader.

58
00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:35.289
Lorenzo Viviani: Considering leadership qualities, the extraordinary quality of charismatic leader plays such leader at an either level than their followers. On the contrary, Populist leader established a daily legitimacy on the similarity

59
00:13:35.300 --> 00:13:48.230
Lorenzo Viviani: on the Allo. In such, reader to appear as an every man rather a superman Populist leader is one of us. They, Populist need this donor, doesn't.

60
00:13:48.270 --> 00:13:55.850
Lorenzo Viviani: They don't. They're not create new history. And and in the sense, in the

61
00:13:55.900 --> 00:14:08.870
Lorenzo Viviani: the Populist, the the the representative of the citizen of the street. and elevate the people to a moral, virtual even before or despite politics.

62
00:14:09.590 --> 00:14:17.159
Lorenzo Viviani: So regarding the politics of emotions, Populist privacy is relies on the politicization

63
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:28.600
Lorenzo Viviani: of a set of emotions such this enchantment, anger, resentment, as well, our store resorting to the propagation of conspiracy theories.

64
00:14:28.610 --> 00:14:34.679
Lorenzo Viviani: and announcing the sentiment of status in Congress, and the fear of relative deprivation.

65
00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:46.779
Lorenzo Viviani: On the contrary, unless we make the extraordinarity quality of which Cardin is composed, a mere factor of popularity, notoriety, or demagogic or authority scale.

66
00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:53.980
Lorenzo Viviani: we must assume that charismatic leaders do not politicize the dark side of political emotion. It is.

67
00:14:54.160 --> 00:15:12.749
Lorenzo Viviani: It's not distinguished by his oppositional character, but rather by the re enchantment feature this created by in which the politics of redemption, the politics of the hope activates a new belief in the legitimacy of leadership and politics

68
00:15:13.060 --> 00:15:16.190
Lorenzo Viviani: and regarding leadership, style.

69
00:15:16.370 --> 00:15:28.829
Lorenzo Viviani: Populist in Karika and Charisma represents antithetical principles, not only because they charismatically decide their political blue, then they populate the box properly and spoken.

70
00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:39.359
Lorenzo Viviani: but also because charismatic leaders shape it around their own people from the recognition of themselves as a political project.

71
00:15:39.910 --> 00:16:00.550
Lorenzo Viviani: whereas Populist leader address the resentment of the audience by adopting reporter. They people's voice is the the problem about the the presence of the lack of on a belt and sound in Populism. We know that they in a

72
00:16:00.650 --> 00:16:12.100
Lorenzo Viviani: carriages man the leader is the we were off a new built and sound a new represent a political social representation.

73
00:16:12.210 --> 00:16:31.599
Lorenzo Viviani: On the contrary, in in Poly is this this? there is only a resonance likeness with the people it imaginary community that restore some bag values of the past and so on.

74
00:16:31.610 --> 00:16:51.160
Lorenzo Viviani: So let's go to the brief conclusion first topic. personalize it to leadership in leader democracy and personalizes to leadership in the Populist refer to different concepts of power and political representation. It's not just a matter of processes of this intimidation.

75
00:16:51.230 --> 00:17:11.839
Lorenzo Viviani: Second topic, despite the fascination with the use of the concept, recognizing charismatic qualities to Populist leader, is a concerto stretching to it to an over extent see the interpretation of both concepts, since the extraordinary qualities of the charismatic type type

76
00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:16.889
Lorenzo Viviani: are mostly measured with the meagogic attitude and media popularity.

77
00:17:17.260 --> 00:17:33.520
Lorenzo Viviani: Charisma, even in advance of democracy, is not equal to Populism. Follow it, do main arguments. And I arrived to my conclusion. the first, because the main. I. The logical reference of popping in is the people and not the car, is not the leader.

78
00:17:33.850 --> 00:17:36.939
Lorenzo Viviani: secondly, because the charismatic leader.

79
00:17:36.990 --> 00:17:41.549
Lorenzo Viviani: not as the people, one of the people but

80
00:17:41.570 --> 00:17:50.150
Lorenzo Viviani: is end with with a quality that makes seems an individual above others, individual above the people.

81
00:17:50.230 --> 00:18:01.779
Lorenzo Viviani: So we can say that Populist for visitories is a project of politics of this intimidation, a politic of anti-politics, and is not only different

82
00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:16.190
Lorenzo Viviani: exactly the opposed to what apps, and in charisma on either way. If popular leader say, I am one of you, the charismatic either says, Follow me. I'm not one of you. I am the only one who can save you.

83
00:18:16.260 --> 00:18:17.539
Lorenzo Viviani: Thank you so much.

84
00:18:21.950 --> 00:18:23.840
Thank you, Lorenzo.

85
00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:34.510
and for the benefit of the the other speakers who are online and can't see the room. we do have an audience now. So thank you for for coming

86
00:18:34.570 --> 00:18:56.650
so very interesting. Distinction being put forward there. Next, we have Rudolph Metz from Corvinus University of Budapest in Hungary, and the title of his paper is Folk Devil or Folk. Hero Strategic use of Emotions in Victor Orban's Politics. So welcome, Rudolph, the floor is yours.

87
00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:21.659
Rudolf Metz: Thank you very much for inviting me in this panel to share my my current research. as you can see I change the the title, but not the topic. and I can connect to the the last presentation. and I can. I can resonate with Lorenzo. But I be sure that

88
00:19:21.670 --> 00:19:31.609
Rudolf Metz: Opal is, then kar is my is not a contradictory concept, but overlapping and reinforcing once, and that's

89
00:19:31.850 --> 00:19:35.630
Rudolf Metz: jump to the next slide.

90
00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:48.799
Rudolf Metz: What is the core question? you may heard the of the biggest scandal of the last year in Hungary the Hungary and Prime Minister. I use the term mixed race

91
00:19:48.800 --> 00:20:07.380
Rudolf Metz: to describe those countries that support migration, and we can. We cannot believe that these a choice of words in his privacy a speech was an accident neither a national Socialist race a series.

92
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:33.410
Rudolf Metz:  but but a provocation of emotion, the whole story is a combination of different damage, and the antibiotic over the out group the the migrants and the anti, but it over the leader Orban for violating the norms of Liberal democracy and the positive engagement with the leader for telling the through.

93
00:20:33.490 --> 00:20:53.629
Rudolf Metz: So my central question is that how it is possible for one part of the society to identify with him, and theyify him as a folk hero. Why, others see him as a folk David, and demonize him. How do properly achieve all of this.

94
00:20:53.630 --> 00:21:10.079
Rudolf Metz: So I tried to. analyze this social construction of properties relationships. they relying on a new theoretical analytical framework. be it on the series of social labeling

95
00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:27.670
Rudolf Metz: and and the theory of heroic or charismatic leadership, and try to provide here a typology to to understand the different strategies of Populist illustrated by Victor Romans. politics.

96
00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:41.339
Rudolf Metz: So the whole pictures picture looks like this we have 3 different emotional, dynamic, and the first one the classic and more panic against and the

97
00:21:41.410 --> 00:22:02.890
Rudolf Metz: perceive the real enemies of the people, the second one less known, the more I for you to about the leader, the toward the Po Populist leader, and the the third one the the counter demonization generated by anti Populist but provoked by Populist leaders.

98
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:25.129
Rudolf Metz: So let's look at these dynamics more closely. I will not talk about the the the theory of more panic panics you probably familiar with these series. but we can see that from the literature, and that the the series series

99
00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:38.719
Rudolf Metz: and don't pay much attention to the agency. The leader generates a mission of waves, and in society as opal. In contrast to the content, the demonization, all the subjects, and

100
00:22:38.750 --> 00:22:54.110
Rudolf Metz: the so-called folk at Davies Harbor there are, some remarkable concept the right thinking papers the engineered. More I panics the more entrepreneurship from from back here

101
00:22:54.110 --> 00:23:17.239
Rudolf Metz: and poser, and the chorus of the leadership can also provide a or a that can can be described as as moral agents who who describe and form The more a state of the society. there are many versions about it, so we can. We can rely on to understand these agency behind the more of pennies

102
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:45.049
Rudolf Metz: it is us on that linking, linking more a panic to is also not new, even a series of acronyms. So sociology have a recognize this kind of the dynamic that seeing that Populist Directory can easily utilize a certain search of negative, sentimental, or certain groups of individuals perceive as Devin and and even Populism. We feature also

103
00:23:45.370 --> 00:24:08.329
Rudolf Metz: understand this labeling process, describing as a construction of fear, or performing a staging the wrong in society, pointing to the ex segregated more, a struggle between the good and evil in in a, in a vocalist at politics. And there are many antiques studies to to analyze these delivering process

104
00:24:08.590 --> 00:24:10.529
Rudolf Metz: the second

105
00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:28.019
Rudolf Metz: this, the second dynamic, is the theification of purpose leaders which received. I course, they're very less attention in the literature, but not unknown for deviance researchers. But Flynn that met you Flinders and Mac, you boots

106
00:24:28.090 --> 00:24:40.409
Rudolf Metz: Provide a critical framework and developing metal concepts of more alphoria fork hero and theification in in that theory.

107
00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:49.950
Rudolf Metz: for heroes, and by the aspiration of more values. But that's the person by everything. People consider good.

108
00:24:49.950 --> 00:25:15.349
Rudolf Metz: in a moment. of moral L. Fouria. They are ascribed to certain qualities that are deemed to remarkable on exceptional, that they immediately assume. And I am as a superhuman or God, God like status. They didn't mention charisma, which is very interesting, because vapor described a very similar wave corresponding leadership.

109
00:25:16.130 --> 00:25:32.710
Rudolf Metz: So what I I think to say here about Populist politicians that first they try to They are not empty. Signify that fires. That's that's what we should accept, but overflowing one, as as also Guy and Mo fit the suggested.

110
00:25:32.710 --> 00:25:54.820
Rudolf Metz: and because they offers something to the society, they personality their their personality their actions, their behaviors, and their rhetoric skiers. Political skis. they send us some signals that they have some kind of special ability to deal with the problems of the of the people.

111
00:25:54.830 --> 00:26:22.980
Rudolf Metz: not so much. They. They might just represent the people and but also become and the champions of the people as a a social identity series such as that. the chorus, not tradition is usually a supported by the shared group identity. So There is no contradiction between attribution of charisma but and and the and representing the people

112
00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:32.540
Rudolf Metz: in in that security framework, and that we have a a recent published that show that

113
00:26:32.540 --> 00:26:41.459
Rudolf Metz: that identity shared identity can can support the customer provision.

114
00:26:42.090 --> 00:26:45.049
Rudolf Metz: In contrast to Populist attitude

115
00:26:45.710 --> 00:26:53.510
Rudolf Metz: the third dynamic, the counter dynamics of of Populist leaders.

116
00:26:53.520 --> 00:27:14.689
Rudolf Metz: we know the the literature from the future. The leadership always generate negative and positive emotions in society. they are never Lead us to to be with that with any reaction. the negative emotions usually described as a negative or contact cover is now

117
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:30.149
Rudolf Metz: and and as I I argue, probably try to utilize this process, but run transgressing the more a boundaries of liberal democracy in order to show their relevance and and the contrast

118
00:27:30.150 --> 00:27:49.459
Rudolf Metz: between and the the leader, the the real leader of the people and the and the corrupt. all right, they want to consciously and deliberately generate these an anti public sentiments. We we can know from this literature as bad manners floating the log, and so on.

119
00:27:49.460 --> 00:28:00.750
Rudolf Metz: so we can describe them as professional polarizer or polarization entrepreneurs, which is a kind of a moral entrepreneurship

120
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:18.970
Rudolf Metz: to to the to form and frame the more more of a boundaries and in the state of the society they seek to be the like many communities as right and political front as and and they want to push the accounts into more positions.

121
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:47.370
Rudolf Metz: But what is really interesting in this picture, that the the calls at once the consequences of these provocations, because antibiotics became similar to Populist in terms of using more emotions. this is what stop and and and his colleagues described as a counter demonization reading, and the the anti Populist camp.

122
00:28:48.460 --> 00:28:50.130
Rudolf Metz: So

123
00:28:50.520 --> 00:29:02.010
Rudolf Metz: So there are different strategies to use a more emotionally, some more ipendic in them for yeah. And I I I would like to. I I I wanted to understand.

124
00:29:02.010 --> 00:29:24.290
Rudolf Metz: these dynamics. so I try to provide a a typology based on 2 di measures. The nature of the leadership which can be pro corrective and directive. And the the second, the dimension is the aim of the strategy demonization. And demonization. So

125
00:29:24.290 --> 00:29:28.920
Rudolf Metz: we have a 4 4 strategies

126
00:29:29.230 --> 00:29:56.339
Rudolf Metz: you. Probably familiar with the the first 2 which hunting is is a classical example of a demonization. I detect this this this kind of strategy in Hungary and anti Lgbtq, politics and policies and barricade building is also, can be a a classic a strategy and described by by the literature.

127
00:29:56.810 --> 00:30:22.820
Rudolf Metz: This this is the difference between the 2. That which one thing is a is a proactive search for for a deviant element in the society. but in contrast to work at build them, because barricad building is more about defend the society, the peers to say that the pure people from the outside more as threats. So

128
00:30:23.050 --> 00:30:41.290
Rudolf Metz: so the next 2 slides I would like to ding dig deeper the the victimization and current is in current organization which it which try to add something to the literature some extra extra perspective.

129
00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:43.170
Rudolf Metz: So

130
00:30:45.650 --> 00:30:52.459
Rudolf Metz: let's see the the on the first, the provoked counter demonization I described as a victimization.

131
00:30:53.080 --> 00:31:05.040
Rudolf Metz: and the purpose of victimization is not, is not primary to create a or or construct, and the forward that we have within the society, but force the the, the depressive enemy

132
00:31:05.040 --> 00:31:26.939
Rudolf Metz: to attack the the the pure morally, PE your leader, and this seems to be a a reserved which found poppy politicians right to create a more a position. in a society in which attacks on them can be described as undeserved and undignified.

133
00:31:26.940 --> 00:31:39.280
Rudolf Metz: So the primary dynamic of the organization is directly that the Populist leaders, and through giving decisions and policies are often mer provocation.

134
00:31:39.620 --> 00:31:50.370
Rudolf Metz: we can see this strategy. for in Hungary, from 2,010 when or once the regime

135
00:31:50.470 --> 00:31:54.639
Rudolf Metz: it started it started

136
00:31:54.840 --> 00:32:17.469
Rudolf Metz: at the the the the the be a Russian building. it it be as a built upon a series of reforms aiming to concentrate. he's he's the Several weeks of anti-publish fear of Democratic the consolidation. However, these sentiments, these antibiotics sentiments

137
00:32:17.470 --> 00:32:46.699
Rudolf Metz: or or this strategy was, politically ineffective in terms of mobilization. And even if you look at the the surveys, the recent surveys, and that shows that Hungary people are still satisfied with the democracy, and they see and the democracy is in any better shape after orban to the power.

138
00:32:47.130 --> 00:33:01.559
Rudolf Metz: there is a one that there was one issue in in the last years. The the first organization act which can be demonstrate this this described as a Coronavirus cap.

139
00:33:01.560 --> 00:33:30.430
Rudolf Metz: to get such negative emission dynamic and this act empower the government to go govern by decree in relation to and the control of control and adverse effects of of of the pandemic. So this is. This was a mayor provocation of a contract immunization in which, or by once again proved himself to be able to protect and and forward every while

140
00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:45.300
Rudolf Metz: orbans set a communication trapped for the posit opposition in which they ever seen as a irresponsible constant only with on power and idle, that goes rather than

141
00:33:45.340 --> 00:33:51.219
Rudolf Metz: and the the bath, and and has so the people during the the Coronavirus on the Me.

142
00:33:51.720 --> 00:34:07.689
Rudolf Metz: Defecation, but also also so relevant here over and presented to himself as a hero, emphasizing his ability, calmness, serenity, the termination to act alone with without the he of the opposition.

143
00:34:08.810 --> 00:34:17.409
Rudolf Metz: and they and the the approval index also supported this theification process, or dynamic

144
00:34:17.870 --> 00:34:29.589
Rudolf Metz: in the last a case, and on the last side of the slide of mine. It's about the unintended. Moreover, consequences which I described this current organization. we know that

145
00:34:30.070 --> 00:34:31.709
Rudolf Metz: that.

146
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:57.790
Rudolf Metz: the Populist forces off. I hit some kind of more of barricades which act as a current team is letting them from the parties from at the governments and and public offices. It is also possible, for a established partition politician to be guaranteed because of their radiance and statements.

147
00:34:57.790 --> 00:35:19.190
Rudolf Metz: and that this means for them as a kind of excommunication from the the origin community. But open is usually frame this situation as a more a struggle in which they try to try to defend the the more appealeness of the people.

148
00:35:19.590 --> 00:35:21.040
Rudolf Metz: And then

149
00:35:21.160 --> 00:35:45.010
Rudolf Metz: in this The the the conflict between the the Hungary Government and the EU could be interpreted in this frame, because the European they use our vague and a ambiguous, according to a recent study. Which try to argue that this ambiguous

150
00:35:45.010 --> 00:35:53.490
Rudolf Metz: generate a more a struggle between the EU and Hungary to define what is but it means to be a good European

151
00:35:54.010 --> 00:36:19.439
Rudolf Metz: so, and the hungry I'm Russian building has provoked a reverse. more, a panic in the you which interprets the changes as valuation of core principles of the community by the hunger gamble, and interpretation was, was a was building the in European nation states and so on.

152
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:33.370
Rudolf Metz: so in discounted immunization, the engine was in the European Parliament, with numerous political, in ineffective reports and biggest consequences was the excommunication of feed us from the European People's party

153
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:55.970
Rudolf Metz: speech interpreted by Orban as a as a more straggling they try to defend the core Conservati Nationalists and Christian values against the the the corrupt fake cons of the fair Christian Democrats in in the in the European Union.

154
00:36:56.250 --> 00:37:03.190
Rudolf Metz:  so that was my, my, my research. I hope you get my points.

155
00:37:03.290 --> 00:37:05.790
Rudolf Metz: and I'm I'm

156
00:37:05.910 --> 00:37:14.180
Rudolf Metz: really encourage you to to share your south and and comments. And and then, yeah.

157
00:37:14.230 --> 00:37:16.359
Rudolf Metz: and thank you very much for your attention.

158
00:37:18.020 --> 00:37:19.760
Thank you, Rudolph.

159
00:37:21.510 --> 00:37:24.889
Rudolf Metz: People are applauding in the room.

160
00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:36.440
So very nice. yeah, you. Somebody is saying you are charismatic. and we have Paul Jones from

161
00:37:37.040 --> 00:38:00.099
sorry, not the car is nothing. I'm just taking it. It's it's in the eye of the beholder, you don't get to decide. So next we have Paul Jones from the Research School of Social Social Sciences, College of Arts and social sciences at the Australian National University. right here in Australia. But Paul is in Canberra at at the moment.

162
00:38:00.100 --> 00:38:10.509
and his paper is called the utility of modern democracy for the charisma populism analytic. So welcome, Paul, the floor is yours.

163
00:38:10.830 --> 00:38:12.320
paul k jones ANU: Thanks, Paul.

164
00:38:15.050 --> 00:38:38.030
paul k jones ANU: Okay, I've got a a a red paper to self-discipline a bit, but, as I admit itly run out of time, I'll add a little bit to some of these slides. I should say straight up. I'm not a Iberian I did this book a few years ago on critical theory and demagogic populism. So My glid answer to the question posed in the

165
00:38:38.030 --> 00:38:52.769
paul k jones ANU: title for the session is none of the above I've been pushing the idea of demagogic Populism building on the work of the first generation front of school, and in particular the studies in Prejudice project

166
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:57.100
paul k jones ANU: of 9 44 to 50 I'll

167
00:38:57.650 --> 00:39:25.259
paul k jones ANU: and the relevance of that to contemporary debates on Populism, so it's their conception of modern demagogue largely theorized by a donor. that informs the title of my paper, and I say, prefer demagogue populism as a Monica, even over Stuart Hall's authoritarian Populism, which is now quite re ubiquitous, and probably worth mentioning, that it was a revision of Stan Cohen's moral panic theory that led to that formulation.

168
00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:38.169
paul k jones ANU: but I do want to take some 10 of these steps towards articulating this work with the concept of charisma in the vibrant sense, so slightly different angle from the other papers you've heard so far.

169
00:39:39.120 --> 00:39:42.350
and I'll I'll move through those topics as we

170
00:39:42.470 --> 00:40:06.760
paul k jones ANU: as I go on. So this is ridiculously crowded image is just to give you a sense of the scope of the studies and Prejudice project and also the The influence on some of the New York intellectuals want to talk about, as well as a bit of intellectual history to this case. So it's size and prejudice was ostensibly focused on anti Semitism.

171
00:40:06.780 --> 00:40:15.840
paul k jones ANU: but also specifically configured to address the recent prominence of radio demagogues in the U.S.A. That was the accepted term.

172
00:40:16.140 --> 00:40:17.360
and it.

173
00:40:17.910 --> 00:40:36.599
paul k jones ANU: The significance of that is that it's important to stress. It refused to to sort of misunderstanding at the front, but schools project as one to interpret American developments with the grid of a European fascism. At the time there was a domestic phenomenon that we were investigating.

174
00:40:37.430 --> 00:40:39.090
paul k jones ANU: Okay?

175
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:53.450
paul k jones ANU: because, unlike other democracies, the U.S.A. Had permitted the presence of these kinds of figures in the broadcasting wing of the culture industry without the usual mediation of journalistic gatekeepers.

176
00:40:53.930 --> 00:41:00.950
paul k jones ANU: these figures. So going to access simply by payment for their time. And the leading one

177
00:41:02.980 --> 00:41:09.159
paul k jones ANU: was father, Charles Coleman, who's become quite famous again in recent years the radio priest.

178
00:41:09.260 --> 00:41:29.210
paul k jones ANU: not only the most popular radio demagogue, but for a time the most popular figure on a Us. Radio to say he's weekly sermons. Selectively we articulated demands from the progressive Populist movement of the 1890 S. And became increasingly anti Semitic. The usual account, then, is that he shifted

179
00:41:29.390 --> 00:41:39.739
paul k jones ANU: across from a Pops Populist position, possibly even left Populist, but certainly by the end of the his tour. He was, decidedly

180
00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:53.550
paul k jones ANU: because using Malcolm man's criteria he advocated the formation of paramilitary groups that led to the intervention of the FBI Christian parad paramilitary groups. He stressed.

181
00:41:54.660 --> 00:41:58.549
paul k jones ANU: no. What happened with the studies and Prejudice Project was

182
00:41:58.820 --> 00:42:24.679
paul k jones ANU: they focused on people like cog one and conducted demography studies. I'll keep it at a living, and I should be reading sorry. So it stays in. Prejudice, included research on the production and reception of this very prominent mediated anti Semitism. The production studies looked at the demagogues themselves and their output, including their repertoire, so I should say, in in terms of what our previous speakers were talking about

183
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:38.210
paul k jones ANU: the reception research sought to identify those most likely to be open to persuasion by demagogue propaganda. That reception research published as the authoritarian personality, of course, became far more famous.

184
00:42:38.590 --> 00:42:56.090
paul k jones ANU: However, even it's recent replication and renewed higher profile have not restored the authoritarian personality to its intended role as an exercise in prospective media reception, in conditions of demagogic dominance of the public sphere.

185
00:42:56.090 --> 00:43:13.969
paul k jones ANU: which perhaps we've yeah returned to recently, there is a related problem for today's discussion. Now, I went out of this way to challenge the epistemological and ontological standing by this conception of charisma in the 1960 S.

186
00:43:14.100 --> 00:43:24.100
paul k jones ANU: Even inserting such a critique into a long 1,964 is on the composer, Richard Strauss. not the most likely place you would think to do that.

187
00:43:24.540 --> 00:43:49.559
paul k jones ANU: Although respectful of the Liberian project, as early as 1,937, he had queried some of the vibrant strands in the Franklin Institute's earlier studies and Authority project. It was the culture industry for Donna that was emerging as a serious rival to the family and the state as a basis of authority and legitimation, and it was from here that the modern demagogue, as he defined it, was increasingly likely to emerge

188
00:43:51.850 --> 00:43:56.169
paul k jones ANU: instead of charisma. The demography, studies within studies and prejudice

189
00:43:56.310 --> 00:44:10.439
paul k jones ANU: relied on a psychoanalytic dynamic in telling narcissistic identification with the demagogue. False projection which is the psychic mechanism that produces a scapegoating and demonization

190
00:44:10.500 --> 00:44:31.290
paul k jones ANU: and paranoia quite crucially a process collectively, a donor called a kind of psycho techniques. And I'm in writing this pet, we've become increasingly convinced to psychotechnics is, adorno substitute for charisma. He also defines it in vibration in terms as The rationalization of irrationality.

191
00:44:32.780 --> 00:44:56.989
paul k jones ANU: Thus, even though the dawn has chosen radio demagogue. Martin Luther Thomas presents himself as a prophet and employs the language of evangelism to unsettle his Presbyterian listeners adorno interprets this entirely psychoanalytically, as legitimation of total. This inhibition as part of Thomas's preparation of his audience for his anti Semitic tropes.

192
00:44:57.450 --> 00:45:21.640
paul k jones ANU: Most members of the Frontford Institute returned to Germany in 1,950, just as the major outputs of studies in prejudice were published, and as Joseph Mc. Joseph Mccarthy moved to political center stage in the U.S.A. It fell to others to challenge. Mccarthy isn't in similar terms, including Edward Chills and Daniel Bell, both of whom had worked with the front good school researchers.

193
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:35.330
paul k jones ANU: They and Richard Hofstadter, who drew explicitly on the demagogue studies, place Mccarthy in a long tradition of the twentieth century Us. Demagogues who drew on tropes from the Progressive at in ninety's Populist movement.

194
00:45:35.960 --> 00:45:38.130
paul k jones ANU: He's the young Daniel Bill

195
00:45:40.330 --> 00:45:48.590
paul k jones ANU: talking about the probably 9 44 bill to dance the argument somewhat predictively in 44 that these terrible simplifiers

196
00:45:48.600 --> 00:45:51.440
practiced a grotesque transformation

197
00:45:51.880 --> 00:46:09.800
paul k jones ANU: of an originally progressive idea, based in the grievances, with the result that the Populist tradition has shrunk and become twisted into a reaction reform with decidedly fascist potential. He even predicts that a Mid West inner would emerge, and Mccarthy was the

198
00:46:10.010 --> 00:46:26.139
paul k jones ANU: the junior Senator from Wisconsin. Okay. she's the 1,956 London 56 work. The torment of secrecy might a similar case more succinctly. Writing a decade before his own very famous essays on Charisma.

199
00:46:26.290 --> 00:46:37.239
paul k jones ANU: he states Populism, the claims, the demagogue who, breaking through the formalistic barriers directed by lawyers Ped, and some bureaucrats renew the righteousness of government and society.

200
00:46:37.460 --> 00:46:54.260
paul k jones ANU: You hear the Fiberian echoes very clearly there. so I'll call the shared terrain of concern, the demagogic risk argument. Populism can emerge in response to legitimate grievances. But it's form is highly vulnerable to what I'd call demagogue capture.

201
00:46:55.120 --> 00:46:58.639
So by the 1950 s. The articulation of charisma

202
00:46:58.730 --> 00:47:01.100
paul k jones ANU: populism, and the modern demagogue.

203
00:47:01.340 --> 00:47:14.620
paul k jones ANU: Demagogic risk in this sense was an emergent, active research program. Since then an astonishing amount of intellectual labor has been expended in diminishing this work, and, of course, that of the front good school, and

204
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:26.000
paul k jones ANU: we have to the cultural marks this conspiracism at the end of that process. So I knew none of this when I first started reading the literature on Populism about 15 years ago.

205
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:30.340
paul k jones ANU: but I was struck by the exceptionalist presentation of the Us. Case

206
00:47:30.680 --> 00:47:33.400
in the orthodox synthesizing literature.

207
00:47:33.790 --> 00:47:42.610
paul k jones ANU: This tendency is evident, at least as early as Margaret can advance. 91 book on Populism, and continues right up to the electoral success of Donald Trump.

208
00:47:42.870 --> 00:47:48.160
paul k jones ANU: On this account the 1890 S. Us. Populist movement was a heroically sacred

209
00:47:48.240 --> 00:48:05.000
paul k jones ANU: one whose demands laid the ground for the achievement of the new deal. It's very defeat seem to render it a paradigmatically virtuous social movement that escape the more solid legacy of the labor and Social Democratic parties that arose simultaneously elsewhere.

210
00:48:07.300 --> 00:48:24.259
paul k jones ANU: Michael Caison and a historian of us Populism. He's also Daniel Bills, nephew, I think, and and long time editor of Descent Magazine, argued over many years that it was the Populist tradition that it helped the U.S.A. Avoid European forms of extremism, as he calls it.

211
00:48:24.530 --> 00:48:47.209
paul k jones ANU: Even Trump's 2,016 demagogic candidacy demonstrated the case. And what's in front of you? Americans have found no more powerful way to demand that their political elites live up to the ideals of equal opportunity and democratic rule to which they pay left service during campaign seasons. Populism can be dangerous, but it may also be necessary.

212
00:48:47.650 --> 00:49:01.729
paul k jones ANU: So Populism studies as an international field, to rise from the early. If it's, as we, as we all know here to consolidate comparative research chiefly on movements within the emergent post. Colonial states with the Post World War Ii period.

213
00:49:01.890 --> 00:49:05.830
So the U.S.A.'s Populist exceptionalism, played a background role.

214
00:49:06.090 --> 00:49:27.800
paul k jones ANU: Likewise the rise of the dominantly right being European populism from the 19 nineties could appear as a problem for Europe rather than the global North. Notwithstanding the simultaneous eruptions of Populism, for instance, in Australia at this time the apparent reassertion of Europe's fascist legacy suggested a more localized phenomenon on that analysis.

215
00:49:27.990 --> 00:49:37.170
paul k jones ANU: It's not here. Ribbonati was the first to point out. This framing relied on the assumption of the normalcy of the U.S.A.'s populism.

216
00:49:38.900 --> 00:49:54.340
paul k jones ANU: The normalizing Us. Case could even become present in its absence as late as 2,012. This anthology, addressing Populism in Europe and the Americas as threat or corrective, did not include a chapter on the U.S.A.

217
00:49:56.420 --> 00:50:02.830
paul k jones ANU: So the purging of the demagogic risk argument was pivotal to this normalization.

218
00:50:02.910 --> 00:50:23.050
paul k jones ANU: Margaret Canavan, for example, characterize bills, and she'll work as these attempts to tar the Populists of the 89. He's with the Mccarthy at Brush, which is the opposite of what they were saying. that great advocate of positivism in Populism studies customer has advocated a pathological norm will see in the same fine

219
00:50:23.090 --> 00:50:30.270
paul k jones ANU: Keyson, of course. continues he, accusing such thinking as being the product of anxious Liberals.

220
00:50:30.510 --> 00:50:40.839
paul k jones ANU: and he also challenges the viability of demagogue itself. Chantel move sees the raising of these questions as a failure of the moralist response to writing Populism.

221
00:50:42.390 --> 00:50:43.220
paul k jones ANU: So

222
00:50:45.390 --> 00:50:48.139
paul k jones ANU: Jason's challenging at the province of demagogue

223
00:50:48.520 --> 00:50:57.360
paul k jones ANU: takes the form of accusing it to being near journalism. And here here it's. It's particularly odd, because

224
00:50:57.850 --> 00:51:14.019
paul k jones ANU: Us. High journalism has a long tradition of challenging demagogues and calling them out of the heroic figure of Edward Mccarthy as sorry Edward Morrow. Slang the Dragon, and Mccarthy is, is one example of this. Another would be

225
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:24.719
paul k jones ANU: This fairly early New York Times. The tutorial calling out the false. So it's this is a long tradition, and it was high journalism.

226
00:51:26.010 --> 00:51:36.739
paul k jones ANU: No such uses are more than polemic. Indeed, she's regarded this kind of journalism as a key component of the civil spheres, defenses against demagogic power.

227
00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:52.730
paul k jones ANU: And I call this strategy liberal exposure, I don't know. Calls it tris propaganda. So, as again, you're probably aware, there's a long history of talking about the statesman Democrat distinction. where

228
00:51:52.890 --> 00:51:54.720
paul k jones ANU: The majority of of

229
00:51:54.750 --> 00:52:09.339
paul k jones ANU: the demagogue, as one who appeals, appeals to popular prejudices is some configured. The bar invokes this. Sorry to voice if I exist when he talks about the wise leader versus demagogue option facing the Black Baptist ministers.

230
00:52:09.380 --> 00:52:19.979
and as you'd be aware of viable pushes against this pejorative legacy, for modern demagogue with the invokes Pericles is a a positive classical intersection.

231
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:25.519
paul k jones ANU: Now, what I? What struck me when I went looking into the Bible, was

232
00:52:25.980 --> 00:52:30.720
paul k jones ANU: Apart from the obvious places, to look like politics, is a vocation.

233
00:52:30.930 --> 00:52:56.090
paul k jones ANU:  in the essay on Suffrage in Germany he also introduces the idea of chance demagogues and definitely employees that pejoratively so, while politics is a vocation, is apparently the only time he connects charisma to the demagogue. In his political writings. He also employs the notion of

234
00:52:56.350 --> 00:53:15.339
paul k jones ANU: the chance demagogue. So what I did at the end here, very, very roughly, we sketch out 2 different strands. I think the the more orthodox understanding of charismatic rule. I can't see my own diagram here because of the sharing who we are. All right now I can see

235
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:39.839
paul k jones ANU: the orthodox association of charismatic rule with grand demagogue. And of course, the profit But what I've noticed was this, a tendency for Vibr to assume competent chamber oratory as part of the trust building exercise of appealing to the wider electorate in the the Gladstone case. Particularly, I don't know if psycho techniques works quite differently. he

236
00:53:40.060 --> 00:53:55.549
paul k jones ANU: provides a means of talking about what we might think of as the incoherent demagogue, the one who appears to jumble their words together, and is incompetent in terms of rules of classical and contemporary orthodox rhetoric.

237
00:53:55.620 --> 00:54:20.520
paul k jones ANU: And it's the the disinhibited associative stream of consciousness, or actually that I don't know focuses on I did find that there was a kind of empirical overlap between the kind of figures that adorn. I was focusing on the modern demagogue, and the kind of figures that Bible was referring to as chance demagogue in in the and the other. Si I refer to. So the argument

238
00:54:20.720 --> 00:54:31.779
paul k jones ANU: from a donna is to put this very soon simply around the dissociative associative. And this inhibited speech that you find from

239
00:54:31.910 --> 00:54:51.090
paul k jones ANU: figures like Pauline Hanson, Donald Trump, and Mccarthy. From what I've been to see if vision, if you can talk very similarly, is to argue that such undisciplined and disinhibited free association is itself a mode of communication recognized by the potential follower.

240
00:54:51.570 --> 00:54:59.799
paul k jones ANU: for and for the same reason, Liberal exposure to this propaganda is an ins insufficient response. So don't know. Warns that

241
00:54:59.850 --> 00:55:31.229
paul k jones ANU: the Protocols document, for instance, has been had been exposed for a long time as a fake, but people continue to believe. so I'll I'll leave you with that thought that that, there is a potential topology here. This is very sketchy of the competent orata, who appears to be the descendant of Gladstone, and the other kind of figure that adorn. I was focusing on, who practices this much more seemingly incoherent but actually highly communicative mode of demagogue.

242
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:32.170
paul k jones ANU: Thanks.

243
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:55.070
thank you very much, Paul. Very fascinating presentation. okay. And next And finally, we have Valentine Sube's from the University of Paris, and Valentine. Do you want to do? Read your title? I mean, it's probably be better right.

244
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:06.389
Valentin Soubise: It's it's a charismatic embodiment and strategy of properties for a foundation within.

245
00:56:07.580 --> 00:56:09.780
Valentin Soubise: Thank you. The floor is yours.

246
00:56:10.730 --> 00:56:11.660
Valentin Soubise: Thank you.

247
00:56:19.080 --> 00:56:22.910
Valentin Soubise: Thank you very much for accepting my communication proposal.

248
00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:35.140
Valentin Soubise: so my Phd tastes in political science, which is currently being written. focuses on the emergence in the French political field.

249
00:56:35.270 --> 00:56:43.439
Valentin Soubise: during the period 2,012, 2,022 of Zionik Minosh as a disruptive and charismatic leader.

250
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:50.800
Valentin Soubise:  This leader is for me a keystone of the left-wing Populist movement in France.

251
00:56:51.140 --> 00:56:58.650
Valentin Soubise: Indeed, the rise of this Populism is not based in France on a powerful mass, social movements.

252
00:56:58.660 --> 00:57:01.760
Valentin Soubise: as it was probably the case, for example, in Spain.

253
00:57:01.980 --> 00:57:07.369
Valentin Soubise: with the In. In that preceded the emergence of podemos.

254
00:57:07.700 --> 00:57:10.799
Valentin Soubise: The French Square movement read a book.

255
00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:16.750
Valentin Soubise: played a leader role that was much weaker and incomparable with the in the

256
00:57:18.100 --> 00:57:20.289
Valentin Soubise: the the of

257
00:57:20.460 --> 00:57:22.630
Valentin Soubise: this hopefully zoom

258
00:57:22.740 --> 00:57:24.869
Valentin Soubise: last week in Populism in France.

259
00:57:26.020 --> 00:57:30.820
Valentin Soubise: mainly crystallized in the succession of 3 Presidential

260
00:57:30.850 --> 00:57:43.119
Valentin Soubise: campaigns, during which the outsiders became, firstly, the candidate of the Radical, left in 2,012, and then of the major part of the left in 17 and 22.

261
00:57:43.470 --> 00:57:57.769
Valentin Soubise: The Presidential elections which are institutionalized as extraordinary moments of French political life, taking the form of a theatreical fight between the champions of different political camps.

262
00:57:58.100 --> 00:58:03.370
Valentin Soubise: has favored the deployment of a charismatic logic of representation

263
00:58:03.600 --> 00:58:06.570
Valentin Soubise: of optimized individuals.

264
00:58:07.100 --> 00:58:16.999
Valentin Soubise: This majestic personalization ledgeonic me also ensure the electoral representation of the left. Despite the

265
00:58:17.220 --> 00:58:29.249
Valentin Soubise: the great weakness of his local presence and of his institutional resources, and despite the hatred that he inspires among the left-wing leaders

266
00:58:29.540 --> 00:58:31.179
Valentin Soubise: as a Populist, one

267
00:58:31.850 --> 00:58:38.650
Valentin Soubise: since 2,017. The French political life is highly presidentialized.

268
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:41.230
Valentin Soubise: In the election of 22

269
00:58:41.560 --> 00:58:57.549
Valentin Soubise: the electorate was polarized between 3 strong personalities. Emmanuel Macron, the current president, who was a related outsider who created his own party ex needle for the 2,017 campaign

270
00:58:58.030 --> 00:59:02.720
Valentin Soubise: marine le Pen, the extreme right.

271
00:59:03.040 --> 00:59:04.789
Valentin Soubise: while the traditional

272
00:59:04.950 --> 00:59:16.150
Valentin Soubise: top political parties that were not personalized were marginalized in this election. It was the case of the Socialist party, the Communist Party and the Conservative party.

273
00:59:17.210 --> 00:59:25.800
Valentin Soubise: For me menosion is this be must be defined, firstly, by the succession of 3 Presidential campaigns.

274
00:59:26.830 --> 00:59:33.759
Valentin Soubise: 3 electoral breaks for which have structured the genesis of the political current

275
00:59:34.180 --> 00:59:40.420
Valentin Soubise: facing its institutional conquest as well as its activist waves of recruitment.

276
00:59:42.710 --> 00:59:43.450
Valentin Soubise: Okay.

277
00:59:44.840 --> 00:59:53.820
Valentin Soubise: defining melancholy by these 3 extraordinary campaigns. Let us approach the charismatic essence of that movement.

278
00:59:55.500 --> 00:59:59.499
Valentin Soubise: These campaigns were structured around mass meetings

279
00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:09.410
Valentin Soubise: which were spectacularized, for example, by using the technology of holograms. multiplying the leader image. and more from the Montali.

280
01:00:09.430 --> 01:00:18.770
Valentin Soubise: because the period as an exceptional speaker who dramatized his pitches as an inspired, then charismatic tribune of the plants, etc.

281
01:00:19.060 --> 01:00:26.850
Valentin Soubise: In the media he was built as a rock star of these mass meetings, despite another tendency to demonize him.

282
01:00:28.720 --> 01:00:34.800
Valentin Soubise: Milosianism essentially appears to me as a community of people listening to a man who speaks.

283
01:00:35.130 --> 01:00:46.440
Valentin Soubise: who speaks in Presidential meetings on television debates, but also to the community of followers of his Youtube Channel, which is the first political Youtube channel in France.

284
01:00:47.290 --> 01:01:01.880
Valentin Soubise: This channel has about 800,000 subscribers and 200 million views, which is 10 times more subscribers and 20 times more of views than Lakhons and swimmers channel the organization channel.

285
01:01:02.370 --> 01:01:08.489
Valentin Soubise: We can see here the sign of the extreme personalization of the organization and of the way

286
01:01:08.780 --> 01:01:13.509
Valentin Soubise: activists and citizens inform themselves about the

287
01:01:13.530 --> 01:01:18.260
Valentin Soubise: this political current of ideas. The charismatic leader

288
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:23.540
Valentin Soubise: was also able to impose his personal sovereignty on the movement.

289
01:01:23.560 --> 01:01:32.369
Valentin Soubise: He, the raises, and he decides about strategy, and also about the organizational model of

290
01:01:32.380 --> 01:01:39.179
Valentin Soubise: he called it gas movement or gaze with movement. I don't know exactly how I can translate it.

291
01:01:39.220 --> 01:01:53.990
Valentin Soubise: which is actually a dictatorship of the leader, but with a great freedom of action at the base of the movement. He also imposes his personal views, and even his personal freaks in the electoral program

292
01:01:54.140 --> 01:01:58.990
Valentin Soubise: just like the space exploration and the the exploration of Planet Mouse.

293
01:01:59.250 --> 01:02:06.490
Valentin Soubise: Even if these measures were not popular at all among activists, mainly for ecological reasons.

294
01:02:07.630 --> 01:02:20.540
Valentin Soubise: From, has been the leader of 5 parties or movements between 2,005 and 2,022. Each time he personally decides when to abandon one tool and to create another

295
01:02:21.230 --> 01:02:33.199
Valentin Soubise: the most. This is the fact for me is that each political party abandoned by Jonathan was condemned to this effective political and electoral world death.

296
01:02:33.310 --> 01:02:40.420
Valentin Soubise: which is the clear proof of the charismatic nature of the legitimization of these parties.

297
01:02:41.280 --> 01:02:43.949
Valentin Soubise: who often can survive their leader.

298
01:02:44.820 --> 01:02:55.549
Valentin Soubise: One example, the Communist party. It is a common idea among researchers who want to testify Charisma, and actually to delay Charisma

299
01:02:55.970 --> 01:03:00.840
Valentin Soubise: to consider that Zonic Minosha emerged as a Populist leader.

300
01:03:00.970 --> 01:03:06.639
Valentin Soubise: thanks to the support of the Communist party and its institutional resources.

301
01:03:06.970 --> 01:03:09.209
Valentin Soubise: Of course it is partly the case.

302
01:03:09.650 --> 01:03:14.410
Valentin Soubise: but personally, I'm also interested in a reverse causation.

303
01:03:14.520 --> 01:03:20.559
Valentin Soubise: Actually, the Communist party was electorally dying until John it me also made it

304
01:03:20.580 --> 01:03:24.539
Valentin Soubise: Presidential campaign with this party in 2,012.

305
01:03:24.690 --> 01:03:39.859
Valentin Soubise: It was his first campaign as a Presidential candidate. He was an outsider. but the internal dynamic of his charismatic campaign, of his interviews, mass meetings, etc. Brought the left front

306
01:03:39.980 --> 01:03:50.960
Valentin Soubise: to obtaining 11% of the votes, which was a really which was really a lot of votes for the Communist party and his recent history.

307
01:03:53.170 --> 01:04:00.620
Valentin Soubise: 5 years later, later, in the 17 Zonic Min also decided to abandon the Communist party and the left front.

308
01:04:00.700 --> 01:04:20.020
Valentin Soubise: he announced his candidacy alone on television without any organizational support, and thus he obtained almost 20% of the votes. Meanwhile the Communist party was not even able to present an autonomous candidate against him, and finally supported him. Despite that humiliation.

309
01:04:21.370 --> 01:04:29.200
Valentin Soubise: In 22 the Communist party presented his own candidate again, and obtained 2 of the votes.

310
01:04:29.640 --> 01:04:38.989
Valentin Soubise: My conclusion is that the short electoral reverse of the Communist party in 2,012 was a kind of charismatic. My recall.

311
01:04:39.010 --> 01:04:44.399
Valentin Soubise: which is proven by. It's second death. When Jonathan left this party.

312
01:04:46.380 --> 01:04:52.950
Valentin Soubise: because charisma is at the very source of the dynamics and political momentum of melancholy.

313
01:04:52.960 --> 01:05:05.370
Valentin Soubise: The personal action of sonic meal from has been able to play a deter mining role in the morphology of manoeuvring its ideology, and even on the Itos of its militants.

314
01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:18.300
Valentin Soubise: I consider that the Populist orientation is fully embodied in the leaders's figure. Less Populism is a matter of compassion to all the people and to all the poor.

315
01:05:19.150 --> 01:05:30.279
Valentin Soubise: presents himself as a compassionate leader. He is described by activists as extremely sensitive to poverty as particularly human.

316
01:05:30.430 --> 01:05:36.630
Valentin Soubise: He has the reputation of not knowing how to control his nerves in the face of injustice, etc.

317
01:05:38.350 --> 01:05:54.600
Valentin Soubise: And an important aspect of my empirical work consisted in showing that local militancy was largely inspired by the style by the person, and by this compassionate Itos of the leader.

318
01:05:55.230 --> 01:05:59.429
Valentin Soubise: I could observe in the popular city of Marseille, in source of France.

319
01:05:59.630 --> 01:06:09.670
Valentin Soubise: that this incarnation of the Populist fight constituted a militant prescription and resulted in a recruitment of a specific kind of activists.

320
01:06:09.770 --> 01:06:12.160
Valentin Soubise: especially women's social workers

321
01:06:12.260 --> 01:06:21.599
Valentin Soubise: who had the key role in some militant activities, in poor immigrant neighborhoods inspired by Solaradinsky Meta community organizing

322
01:06:24.220 --> 01:06:34.769
Valentin Soubise: the the the personality of man of represents the kind of validation of a certain kind of skills and itos, and gave prestige to these militants.

323
01:06:37.200 --> 01:06:39.680
Valentin Soubise: A listing populism in France

324
01:06:39.690 --> 01:06:53.859
Valentin Soubise: is electorally based on the perception of a charismatic figure may also have great popularity in pro immigrant neighborhoods, where he will more than 50 or even 60 of the votes in 22

325
01:06:54.390 --> 01:06:56.659
Valentin Soubise: activities. We're often

326
01:06:56.770 --> 01:07:08.409
Valentin Soubise: warm warmly welcomed in this immigrant suburbs. but only as Zhanik me, not from activists and because of his personal popularity.

327
01:07:08.640 --> 01:07:15.199
Valentin Soubise: People there often didn't even know the name of the political party to which the militants belong.

328
01:07:16.110 --> 01:07:23.570
Valentin Soubise: As a compassionate and Populist leader. Me on phone is perceived there as a non racist character.

329
01:07:23.600 --> 01:07:29.540
Valentin Soubise: as a loving figure, as a man who loves everyone, including the pros and the immigrants.

330
01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:35.809
Valentin Soubise: I think that we cannot ignore the political role of the human person because it is

331
01:07:35.970 --> 01:07:43.079
Valentin Soubise: a human person, and not an idea that is received as incarnating the possible

332
01:07:43.220 --> 01:07:48.480
Valentin Soubise: path that would stop the racial divisions. In this, in the society

333
01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:57.680
Valentin Soubise: I plead for a full meaning of the concept of incarnation. actually not so far from the Christian meaning. When the Christ said, I am the way.

334
01:07:58.090 --> 01:08:03.840
Valentin Soubise: I I think that every charismatic leader not only shows away, but

335
01:08:04.180 --> 01:08:05.610
Valentin Soubise: these are kind of like

336
01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:10.070
Valentin Soubise: I would like to finish

337
01:08:10.570 --> 01:08:13.779
Valentin Soubise: we the a few chemical elements.

338
01:08:14.430 --> 01:08:25.460
Valentin Soubise: My test is is that milestone is fully Populist and fully charismatic. Charisma was efficient because French left was in a Populist momentum

339
01:08:25.590 --> 01:08:31.029
Valentin Soubise: that me not only in a singular charismatic leaders. Action.

340
01:08:31.510 --> 01:08:37.589
Valentin Soubise: Populism is melancholy for tuna and charisma. Is, it is his V. To

341
01:08:38.460 --> 01:08:46.979
Valentin Soubise: to understand Populism we must understand the general dialectic between the Institute and the Institute

342
01:08:47.200 --> 01:08:56.340
Valentin Soubise: for your Ms. To La. There is a political institution of the social world, and Populism aims to incarnate this political eruption

343
01:08:59.480 --> 01:09:10.619
Valentin Soubise: does not aim to bring the organizations together. It aims to replace these organizations by a new people built around the place.

344
01:09:11.150 --> 01:09:20.200
Valentin Soubise: The personal path of the Populist leader appears desirable in proportion of the devaluation of the routinized institutional offer.

345
01:09:20.460 --> 01:09:32.779
Valentin Soubise: According to Macabilly, when the people fails to resist the rich to resist a ground d. The people assigns this task to an individual and makes him a prince.

346
01:09:33.070 --> 01:09:41.070
Valentin Soubise: For me. We are here the very heart of the delegating logic and of the personalization of left-wing populism.

347
01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:47.599
Valentin Soubise: The collapse of institutional left parties made left individuals available for oil

348
01:09:47.620 --> 01:09:50.920
Valentin Soubise: for the mobilization behind the charismatic leader

349
01:09:51.840 --> 01:10:00.490
Valentin Soubise: in its Populist dynamic. The French left of the 2,010 is close to the ideal type of a stateless nation.

350
01:10:00.650 --> 01:10:06.660
Valentin Soubise: The constellation of individuals whose spontaneous tendency has been to turn to

351
01:10:06.770 --> 01:10:15.680
Valentin Soubise: to a refunding leader. That's why my case is for queues on what I propose to call her. Here he worried configuration

352
01:10:16.200 --> 01:10:20.209
Valentin Soubise: in the French left of the 2,012 and 2,022,

353
01:10:20.340 --> 01:10:21.570
Valentin Soubise: that's to say.

354
01:10:21.620 --> 01:10:35.559
Valentin Soubise: an individual claiming the role of refunding hero of the people of the Left. But the charismatic community supporting him, and the traditional authorities of the left, relatively inc capable of containing his dynamic.

355
01:10:37.330 --> 01:10:40.959
Valentin Soubise: Deprived of the State, the Populist left nation

356
01:10:41.190 --> 01:10:47.609
Valentin Soubise: existed by crystallizing in the symbol of the media

357
01:10:47.970 --> 01:10:48.690
Valentin Soubise: and

358
01:10:50.020 --> 01:10:57.909
Valentin Soubise: the stateless nation is also subject to entropy, divisions, qualities, my values, and follow a new leader

359
01:10:58.210 --> 01:11:09.449
Valentin Soubise: is a way to go from the multiple to the one, from the individual to the command, because the leader imposes his personal arbitrariness as a new collective direction.

360
01:11:10.150 --> 01:11:13.599
Valentin Soubise: As Roberto Mikkel showed it masterfully.

361
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:25.920
Valentin Soubise: The mass are deprived of any principle of reorganization, unless by you rallying the particular person who does becomes a leader and a historical

362
01:11:27.510 --> 01:11:28.610
Valentin Soubise: that you mentioned

363
01:11:29.090 --> 01:11:33.469
Valentin Soubise: the French. The French social psychologist

364
01:11:34.010 --> 01:11:36.769
Valentin Soubise: explains another very important thing.

365
01:11:37.260 --> 01:11:55.060
Valentin Soubise: The social group in crisis is a nomi and become a target of social influence, while the nomic individual is a source of social influence, can become a leader, and finally, the rest, in point of a political refundation of the social.

366
01:11:56.180 --> 01:12:08.279
Valentin Soubise: Following an idea of Kal Schmidt, I think that you know situation of exception. The sovereign decision come first and takes precedence over the collective.

367
01:12:08.580 --> 01:12:13.970
Valentin Soubise: The leader institutes the political unity of the group in a logic of plebiscitari

368
01:12:14.340 --> 01:12:16.130
Valentin Soubise: democracy.

369
01:12:16.290 --> 01:12:28.580
Valentin Soubise: In the electoral campaigns the Populist left was spoken by Jeanette Mansf. according to his particular point of view, which is absolutely not representative and couldn't be.

370
01:12:30.140 --> 01:12:33.170
Valentin Soubise: I'm done here. Thank you very much for listening.

371
01:12:36.310 --> 01:12:38.780
Thank you very much.

372
01:12:38.980 --> 01:13:02.159
So we have 7 or 8 min for for questions. We have some people in the room here, and we have 16 people online. So if you're online, and you want to ask a question, please. do that. Now. you can turn on your camera and speak, I think, or you can type in the chat box?

373
01:13:02.160 --> 01:13:11.980
Or do we have any questions for the floor? What I'm going to suggest? Would you be comfortable coming up here? Because then the people can see you. So we have a question

374
01:13:12.070 --> 01:13:13.630
on its way.

375
01:13:19.190 --> 01:13:21.360
Thank you. I really enjoyed

376
01:13:21.590 --> 01:13:25.419
the the papers, and I appreciate

377
01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:28.689
Paul Jones. Notion of competence.

378
01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:41.429
 in the end, as as part of an ideal typical arrangement, a little personal background. My wife is French, and we've spent hours

379
01:13:41.530 --> 01:13:48.669
upon hours watching me on the show on Youtube. And it's been very fascinating for us.

380
01:13:48.940 --> 01:13:59.279
I think these concepts are really important. And through Paul's. I want to kind of introduce a parallel notion.

381
01:13:59.420 --> 01:14:06.030
To populism, charisma! Authoritarianism, I think. By the way.

382
01:14:06.170 --> 01:14:10.709
if one looks back to go. and certainly Macron

383
01:14:11.030 --> 01:14:16.989
are never accused of being authoritarian or being

384
01:14:17.380 --> 01:14:32.289
in some ways arbitrary, as is melancholy, so sometimes these concepts can be used to give the back of one's hand politically. Especially to melancholy. I'm thinking of one incident and

385
01:14:32.480 --> 01:14:34.130
with me also.

386
01:14:34.350 --> 01:14:37.800
 In which

387
01:14:38.150 --> 01:14:40.350
the State, unfairly

388
01:14:40.410 --> 01:14:51.270
barged in and was were going to? take all kinds of files and papers, and he was wearing this. It was in his office he was wearing the set, the sash

389
01:14:51.280 --> 01:14:53.470
of of government.

390
01:14:53.510 --> 01:15:03.469
and he said. just we like that. I am the State. But he meant that in the sense that you're violating, you know I'm a I'm a

391
01:15:03.700 --> 01:15:22.859
a representative, and you're violating the space the right wing picked that up, I mean, if you take that out of context. they said. Oh, he said that, and again, so he's a he's a an authoritarian. He's just a Populist. So in listening to to his talks

392
01:15:22.900 --> 01:15:25.840
rather than

393
01:15:25.930 --> 01:15:53.449
my wife and I frankly, has all kinds of disturbing mannerisms, one say, But rather than seeing him as as charismatic. What was fascinating. And here's the element of competence that, I think is was left out of some of the analyses. If you listen to him substantively, he's making some very interesting points, and he he is a kind of a historian of of revolution.

394
01:15:53.450 --> 01:16:20.659
putting together 1,789, 1,848 18, the the Paris commune other and other figures, and linking them up in in a really interesting discourse. So I'm saying that the my point is, there's something substantive about Meloshol which might be lost in just saying that. Oh, this is rhetoric. He's Populist. He's

395
01:16:20.660 --> 01:16:33.920
he thinks he's charismatic. So I I would like us to turn towards the the substance and then evaluate it critically. Critically, let's just say thank you.

396
01:16:34.290 --> 01:16:47.910
Thank you. Interesting point. I think we can take that as a as a compliment, but as a comment. And we have another question here. So would you like to do the same? Anyone online?

397
01:16:49.110 --> 01:16:51.620
okay. So

398
01:16:55.690 --> 01:17:01.829
givapal from France. Also I have a question for Paul Sobiz, but I also for Italy.

399
01:17:01.840 --> 01:17:15.170
The criteria you have for populace with melancholy, which is a personification lost your face of media large audience. Political description

400
01:17:15.820 --> 01:17:25.130
could be applied to Macron and to marine le Pen, and also qualified as populace because she contests the alder elite

401
01:17:25.970 --> 01:17:43.179
Democratic, and so on. And to say, if you want another solution, change that it's come back to Nationalist Macron, contest the exhaustion of the Salis Party. Too much bureaucratic. Let's go to technology of Internet. And all this is a quick solution for the strong problem.

402
01:17:43.220 --> 01:17:44.360
So

403
01:17:44.670 --> 01:17:49.899
there are free populism. So from this I make 2 remark, considering Paul Jones.

404
01:17:50.700 --> 01:17:57.450
the particular technique change, I will not say melancholy, and Mac was the most narcissistic, like trump.

405
01:17:57.640 --> 01:18:00.100
The subsequent technique of a

406
01:18:01.230 --> 01:18:07.060
his course qualified by podemos to promote numeric identity.

407
01:18:07.130 --> 01:18:15.970
to force the unity of message, the personification and the media access is to descript inside the media system. It's the end of the basic technique.

408
01:18:16.440 --> 01:18:22.189
And so concentration for funds, the competition between different populace

409
01:18:23.070 --> 01:18:26.189
with a big race to avoid my lieutenant. So

410
01:18:26.660 --> 01:18:39.949
I could go on that I don't know the time about. No, we don't have too much time, so I like to keep the questions. It's a question for the Italian cares. We have also the competition people police, the Mayo and the M. C. 5,

411
01:18:40.240 --> 01:18:50.009
and so on. There are free-party populations in Italy, too, but your rezoning was much more in terms of parity how to make Circular King the elite

412
01:18:51.120 --> 01:18:56.050
abstractly, and so on. Do you agree on that? And can you develop more

413
01:18:56.950 --> 01:18:57.840
on the call.

414
01:18:58.260 --> 01:19:00.839
Thank you. So.

415
01:19:01.020 --> 01:19:11.400
yeah, we have. We have a minute. So we have time for another question, or we can open up to responses to either of the 2 people who just asked a question.

416
01:19:16.250 --> 01:19:21.250
Lauren, did you have a question? Yeah, open anyone talk?

417
01:19:37.290 --> 01:19:58.220
Okay? Well, I I mean, I I I I have a little observation. and sort of a question for Lorenzo. I I was compelled by your the distinction you were making, but then I was also trying to think of examples. And I I'm just wondering. I I I know you had a slide later on that had some pictures on it. So perhaps you were getting there.

418
01:19:58.300 --> 01:20:26.980
you know, when you you make this distinction between the Populist leader being every man and the charismatic leader being the superman. And so but then I think, okay, well, what about Gandhi? This is somebody who had all the presentational style of somebody who was a a very lowly in the same way that Jesus is the carpenter, son, very kind of every every man kind of representational style, but nevertheless was exalted as some sort of remarkable, extraordinary figure.

419
01:20:26.980 --> 01:20:50.000
and then on the flip side for the Populist leaders. Yes, the Populist leaders claim to be ever men, but is what? What Populist leader would you point to? Where there wasn't this adoration that was also coming along at the same time. So I'm just sort of asking for some definition empirically for your your distinction there.

420
01:20:52.740 --> 01:21:06.870
but that that can be taken just as a com comment as well. We are at 8 51. I don't know if the computer is going to automatically shut off. But I'm happy to stand here and have a discussion as long as we're we're allowed.

421
01:21:21.020 --> 01:21:24.650
Lorenzo Viviani: I can only one only one sport on.

422
01:21:24.930 --> 01:21:47.760
Lorenzo Viviani: you know about your question. yes, there are also some slide with examples in my Powerpoint and Gandhi and the others leaders. I I remark that that there is possible to charismatic leadership not only the goal, but also Nelson Mandela, the goal Pop Andre, who in the old

423
01:21:47.920 --> 01:22:00.250
Lorenzo Viviani:  a. A. And also Gandhi, those to Washington they found in father of a political system. I think that there is a

424
01:22:00.550 --> 01:22:28.579
Lorenzo Viviani: cleavage between Populist leader and the charismatic leader, especially route to the in the ability to realize the premise of a great reform in culture, in religion, in politics, and so on. So if we look in Italy, for example, and the other question was about the Populism in Italy. we have so many

425
01:22:28.670 --> 01:22:53.710
Lorenzo Viviani: and Populist leader, and the first is as being Berlusconi. But also Bill was going that in this star at the of a political political journey in the nineties. he promised it to resolve the problem, the crisis, to realize the Greeks reform, and that's a 30 years.

426
01:22:53.810 --> 01:23:22.599
Lorenzo Viviani: There is no change, real change in politics in this institution, and so on. So the different the main difference between a Populist leader and a a charismatic leader as the first shake the society quality politics and the second the people the goal, but not also the goal, other leaders or contemporary leaders that that make the great reform.

427
01:23:22.800 --> 01:23:49.430
Lorenzo Viviani: And after the the leader there is a an institutionalization re. They are organization of charisma, in the political system, in the religion, and from Starting from Christ, there is, the religion, the Catholic religion, the Christ in the region after the gold. This is the fact that the fifth a

428
01:23:49.890 --> 01:23:59.589
Lorenzo Viviani: the the new constitution, a new political system, and so on. After Populist leader, the shake this society, and it is

429
01:23:59.620 --> 01:24:09.460
Lorenzo Viviani: there is no, there is no difference between the Italian political, institutional regime in 1994. And now

430
01:24:10.550 --> 01:24:11.350
Lorenzo Viviani: it's okay.

431
01:24:13.060 --> 01:24:14.020
thank you.

432
01:24:15.150 --> 01:24:24.149
So class is dismissed. But you can stay extra time, it seems, if if you'd like to. Did any of the presenters have questions for each other.

433
01:24:24.320 --> 01:24:25.300
perhaps.

434
01:24:31.090 --> 01:25:00.000
Okay. Well, then, I think, it's my responsibility to thank everybody for participating in this. Thanks you. Thank you for coming. Thanks for those who came online. at this hour. And wherever you may be in the world, we really appreciate it. And and so lots of interesting discussion, and it's certainly not over. I'm sure that we'll be following up with each other on this important topic. And but we'll say goodbye for now. So thank you all.