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the zoom session. The zoom recording has staff it. So I suggest, we also start. I'd like to welcome you. And first of all, start by acknowledging the judicial owners, the traditional custodians of this land that we're android people of the cooling nations, and I'd like to acknowledge that this is unseeded land, and always was, and always will be, aboriginal land.

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It is my pleasure to welcome you to this session on straight-level bureaucracies, and that impact on migrant in an exclusion. it is lights in the day. So I recognize that Evan's probably getting a bit tired, but it's right you all here. we do have. So I've organized this session together with someone who's at the University of Vienna, and could unfortunately not join us here. But Ella is online, so I can't see her now, but she's listening with a lot of interest.

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so will. Every piper will have. Every presenter will have 15 min, and we'll save all the questions then to the end.

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So I'll welcome first Francis Collins to speak to us about bureaucratic encounters and emotional governance in New Zealand's temporary migration regime.

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And

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thanks very much. Martina. And thanks also to Elizabeth, I'd like to start by echoing the land acknowledgment to the cool and nation and the Wind Jury people. but I'd like to add to that as a, as I guess, in thinking about my own position coming into this research here as a as a white settler in Alto and New Zealand, a settler colony that has similar at least colonial affinities with Australia.

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my ancestors came to that space from colonized Ireland, and yet they also enabled the British Imperial project in settler colonialism in New Zealand.

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I think it's important to recognize that and recognize the indigenous peoples in particular, Nati, Farto and Waikato Tai Nui, who who are sovereign in the spaces where I do my work.

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I think it's important to acknowledge that. But I actually think, particularly in the space of thinking about migration studies. particularly when we do think about migration in context of settler colonialism, such as Australia, and what is now known as New Zealand that we actually think not just about not just about acknowledging, but actually thinking about how our work and the kind of politics that we work towards is also about decolonizing the space of migration governments

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that's actually, arguably especially important in the context of thinking about bureaucracy. So the papers here today are thinking about street level bureaucracy which obviously is embedded within that quite a settler colonial regime.

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So I just want to start with that and just hold that in the space. This paper is not about to set the colonial dimensions explicitly of migration, but that's always in the background. And I think, frames what we're talking about here.

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So the paper that I'm presenting here is a little bit of a twist on what was in the actual title and abstract so I've I've I've modified it in the 9 months since I wrote it and submitted it for for this. for this particular session. But Nonetheless, I'm still focusing on this question of street level bureaucrats in their relationship to in this case a workplace exploitation and the workplace exploitation of people on temporary migrant visas.

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So what I'm drawing on here comes from work I've undertaken with Christina Stringer, who's at the faculty of business at the University of Auckland. This is work we undertook in 2019 for the New Zealand Government.

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They had observed an increasing rate of workplace exploitation of people on temporary migrant visas and a whole range of issues around fraud and on payment all sorts of things that I'll come to cover in just a second.

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And this was also common with the media, reporting that, particularly in the sort of 5 to 10 years running up to running up to 2,019.

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Now I want to start before talking about that research or the framing of this paper, just to highlight some of the bureaucratic encounters that Christina and I had in the space of doing this commissioned research.

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So, as part of doing this this work for government, we were. We had to meet on several occasions with government officials, immigration policymakers, labor and labor policymakers and and people involved in operationalisation of those policies.

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and we were constantly encountered with particular framings of migrants and finding of migrants who were subjected to exploitation.

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and that we could, so I could summarize these in the following ways. One. There was a kind of moral reading of workplace exploitation. that there were good and bad employers and the bad apple employers with a problem, and if we could target those and enforce. Therefore there wouldn't have been no more exploitation.

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and that they were good and bad migrants, good migrants being those who were either highly skilled. So, therefore, desirable or lowly, skilled, and willing to be subjected to the highly restrictive terms that come in a low-skilled migration regime.

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Bad migrants were those migrants who were deemed to be low-schooled, and yet were trying to remain who yet were trying to gain rights for themselves or to remain, and game residents over time.

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Migration was also framed as a co-ethnic problem, that it wasn't something that was from New Zealand, but rather was something that was imported because migrants were working. There was an observation that that some victims of workplace exploitation were working for employers of a similar ethnicity to them. So, therefore, these issues of of of exploitation and non-compliance in the labour market came from elsewhere.

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and, thirdly, that exploitation complaints about exploitation were a back door to getting Residency rights, that migrants were using this claim as as as a way to remain in New Zealand.

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and then, on top of that, officials also kept on asking us why don't victims of Exploitation trust institutions and at New Zealand institutions, and they wanted us to explore that issue.

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And but they also held to a similar point about this being so a problem from elsewhere. The victims of exploitation didn't trust New Zealand government institutions because they didn't trust the institutions in the countries they came from, and many of the victims of exploitation in the New Zealand context, at least at the time we looked at it, were from South Asia, particularly India, and but also also the Philippines and parts of South America.

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And so there's an assumption that there was a framing from officials that those countries were thus.

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Now what I want to do here is try and situate some commentary about workplace exploitation. I'm going to talk a lot about our findings from that, but rather situated in in relation to thinking about bureaucratic encounters that happen when people seek to report their experiences of exploitation. So hence the length to street level of bureaucracy.

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So since we haven't had much of an introduction, 2 s introduction on Letsky and street little bureaucracy. Obviously, when we think about street level bureaucracy, we're thinking about those people within the State, or usually within the State, sometimes beyond who operationalized forms of policy. And I think in the immigration space we could imagine. street, little bureaucrats, including immigration officials, border control agents, labor inspect

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local government officials, government funded settlement support and others.

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Now, before I came to this station and prepared this paper. I had looked at Lipski for quite a while, but I actually found it quite instructive. Returning to Levsky's text on on street level bureaucrats. In particular, I found it useful to draw attention to the way in which Lipsky highlights the psychological costs involved in interacting with street-level bureaucrats.

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He does this when, when when he focuses on welfare recipients or people who should be entitled to welfare and speaks about the ways in which street-level bureaucrats, attempts, interactions with their clients lead to often lead to a situation where our clients feel degraded and diminished in different kinds of ways, which leads to a reduction in the number of claims that people make.

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and this is obviously framed within both the kind of social dynamics, of of of bureaucratic spaces, but also the moral worthiness of the Frank perceived moral worthiness of clients.

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I think there's also some interesting work emerging around. Migration and strict little bureaucracy. And Borrell is a good example of that. It tries to push us away from thinking about those spaces is just disinterested and professional, and and and asking us to think about the emotional dimensions of those spaces.

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Now, I think we do also need to situate that those kind of commentaries in relation to thinking about exploitation. And obviously, that's the focus of the paper here, and just to highlight that for Christina and I. a big framing for the work that we did for the Government, and our analysis of it subsequent to that is about moving beyond a notion that labor, exploitation, or run freedom in labor is about it can be split in terms of a kind of

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forced voluntary binary. We don't. We don't subscribe to the notion that there is either unfree work or completely free work, but rather that we need to understand a complex landscape of the ways in which people enter into experience and can potentially leave from work that is differently problematic.

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So I think, Lewis Ed, I have a really good sort of summary of this. I think, with a with a highlight that we need to think about Freedom in labor and in migration is not just about a coerced point of entry. So not just thinking that people take on jobs, and better, that they are coerced, and to take.

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but rather that people may well enter into certain kinds of relations, employment, migration, and others that appear to be free, or that feel free, but that unf freedom can occur in the preclusion of exit or the maintenance of certain kinds of relationship. In that work.

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I also think it's useful to think of Nicholas de Jenova's concept of deportability which probably most people are familiar with, and but just to highlight his emphasis on on sense and emotion and feeling so deep. But, dej nova talks about deportability, not as the fact of deportation.

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not as a measure of whether people are deported or not, but rather about the palpable sense of deportability, the feeling that one might be deported, and what influence that has on the subjectivity of migrants.

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So in that context, we need to think about migrant justice. And that's, I guess the framing I'm using here for thinking about how people respond to report and and have reparation from workplace exploitation. We need to think about that in this kind of context of institutionalized on freedom that comes in the migration landscape. And hopefully you've been able to stand down those on freedoms there in the New Zealand team premigration regime which I won't comment on here, but they're influential in the material I'm talking about in a second.

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So very briefly, the work we did, we undertook. a series of interviews around 61, 64, with victims of workplace exploitation. So people who had held some pre-work or study visas and and had experienced various kinds of workplace exploitation.

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and we also carried out into use of stakeholders of various kinds that are listed up there that I won't comment on today.

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the important to point out that the work we did at placed in emphasis on seeing workplace exploitation as firstly cumulative, that is, it often is not a singular instance, and it often builds up over time in a specific employment relation, or alternatively, a multiple employment relations.

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And so people don't simply exploit it on one moment. But rather, it actually happens in different lots of different kinds of ways. And we also conceptualize the exploitation is occurring in a pathway at particular instances and sites. So there's a kind of graphic representation of that there. But just to recognize that exploitation of various kinds can occur prior to migration. It can incur in workplaces and accommodation. in education settings for international students and in various kinds of intermediations. So the work of migration agents

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in terms of in terms of their work and situating migrants in a context and in workplaces.

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What kinds of exploitation did we see? Well, for any of you who can look at the number chat on the on the far access. Here you'll note that there's far more instances of exploitation than there are participants in our research, and that's because most people in our research experience multiple forms of exploitation. But what were most noted were forms of underpayment.

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You can see the other examples here. The 2. I might just explain cash back schemes. You'll see there. Those are instances where people get paid what is seen to be a standard wage or a legal wage, and then their employer or an intermediary takes them to a banker machine and asks them to take out money and give it straight back to the employer.

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so it looks legal, but then is a form of obviously a a massive form of of exploitation and non-compliance. Job and visa premiums are where people are demanded to came money in order to get a job. And that's obviously a or a visa, and that can be in the tens of thousands of dollars, and that that's situated in a context where people need jobs and in order to maintain their migration status.

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So 3 brief examples here, because I know I've got about 4 min left. So I think it's worth saying that a majority of our participants were unwilling or unable to approach official organizations, whether that be the New Zealand police community law agencies, other kinds of settlement support agencies.

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either because they didn't know about these organizations and what they do, but actually, especially in the case of immigration, New Zealand and the

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 So in this. So, as as I said, particularly in the case of the labor inspector and and immigration, New Zealand people were uncertain about their ability to approach these organizations, so a fear of approaching them, and I think this issue of deportability from dig in over comes up.

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this quote from Darkshire, who, I think, is indicative of that, because when you're going through lots of exploitation, racism, and bullying you're scared of who to trust, talks to, goes on to talk about how? actually, he doesn't he, you know, going to speak to anyone about his exploitation, actually raises questions about his own ability to remain in New Zealand. The risk of deportation is explicitly referenced here.

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But even in those cases where people did seek to report things, there was, there was quite a clear, palpable sense that The people they interacted did not trust their reports of exploitation, so it was common for participants to tell us that of those at least, who who did go and report their their experience of exploitation, especially to official organizations, said, we're told that

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either that there wasn't enough evidence. They needed more people to come forward, so they needed the whole set of employees within a workplace to come forward, or simply, even if the evidence was there that we can't take action. That was a kind of common phrase that our participants told us that they had been told by labour inspectors and by immigration officials.

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so I think I think daily here. gives a, you know, a good example of this. Even when I get in contact with the labor inspector, they don't do anything because they say, Oh, everybody's complaining about this, and you know we're sort of stretching on there to think to think about how this affects Dylan. You know you. You start to see the the kind of framing that I talked about earlier on amongst officials, that migrants are necessarily seeking a back door. So they think that he's somebody who's paid for a visa who's trying to cheat the system

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when, in fact, for him, he sees himself. Obviously, it's having significant potential and having worked very hard to move along the pathway that he's been

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conscious of time. Here. I just want to finish with one more here, which is just to draw attention to the cases where there were actually significant emotional costs, or in Lipsky's turn, psychological cost from encounters with street level bureaucrats. just recognizing that, you know. Hopefully, you know, this may trigger some people, but there were lots of participants within our research who referred to their own attempts to commit suicide

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or 2 instances of people that they knew that, including some instances, were referring to people who had committed suicide, or those who had considered it.

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This was something that kind of, I think, for us, reflected the deep, deep trauma that emerges within certain types of exploitation, but also that that reflects the kind of desperation of the situation that people find themselves in with that, and The kind of limited options that people have to get out of the situation, Syria.

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and so I won't read Sheriff's quote here, but I guess indicative of you know, somebody who's gone to a labor inspector, and then simply being told. There's nothing that can be done. You don't have the information where he's provided all the information, and it's like, What do I do, you know? Do I have to attend suicide.

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So you know this kind of work. I haven't really thought through. How have the kinds of conclusions? It might come out of this, and I think there's a lot more detailed work to be done here in terms of making this connection between street level bureaucracy and the the the the workplace exploitation, and then the work that we've been doing. But I think it's quite clear that bureaucratic encounters shape possibilities for migrant justice, either because there simply isn't a pathway to access any kind of migrant justice

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through reporting, because people can't be trusted. People aren't trusted by officials. or because there's a perception that if you actually report your forms of exploitation that you are liable to be exploited and sorry, liable to be deported. In actual fact, we did have people who were who we interviewed, who were overseas, who had been sent deportation liability notices before they could report their exploitation. So there's some evidence for that.

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I also think, and I will wrap up, and that there's a sense that you can see the discursive framings of migrants as problematic circulating in bureaucracies. So from those amongst those policy officials that Christina and I interacted. And it seems to me, and the interactions that we see here from migrants also in the street, little bureaucrats, the operational side that they interact with, and I think I'd have to dig a bit deeper to see where that would

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and I think I will leave it there. But the question for me going forward is really, what does this mean in terms of how we think about achieving migrant justice.

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Thank you

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to the next presentation

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by Adrienne Camp and Julia Resnick. And it's Julia who's presenting. Yes, that's what it's just

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I thank you very much for being here, and I will present a study that we conducted with

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is here, and, as you see, the title, it's about urban governance

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on limited legality, and we campaign our study, the incorporation of migrant children in 2 cities, Tel, Aviv and Jerusalem.

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We see the picture trump and the migrant

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criminal legality is simultaneous social existence and legal non-existence.

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Then the main question of our research

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are how cities respond to the presence of children growing up in social, legal limbo, at once present and legally absent. That's the main question.

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And then we he had.

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We have conducted a 3 years research at 3 levels, Macro, Meso and micro. And today we will focus on the mezzo level. With that. It was based on almost a and more than a hundred interview.

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And

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you know, the population of in our research is about undocumented children. And we have. They are 70% of asylum seekers, most of them, as you can see they live in Tel Aviv, and a small proportion in Jerusalem.

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Then

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I skipped a many of this light. and

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we see that this invisibility. They are not invisible. but there is an institutional ambivalence. my old children, as both universal children and particular others.

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They are recognized by the Ministry of education.

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There is a circular from the ministry that ratified the law and mandates

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that municipality has to have to register all the children

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with or without document.

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But the problem is that the Ministry of Interior

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it doesn't recognize these children, then they are not budget allocation, and they are not eligible for different social services, like language, support, learning, disabilities and many others.

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And then our focus

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from the theoretical point of view, is that we see that there are national policies.

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and there is a governing of migration through

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creating and security.

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but, on the other, that is, in the framework of neoliberal state and the rescaling of migration policy policies to local or municipal institutions.

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and then a

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from the theoretical point of view, we base our work on structures and agency, and we try to understand how local actors steer institutional ambivalence.

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Then, focusing on structure, we studied how the institutional organization of service provisions, how they established administration in each city.

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and how the consolidated

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models of public public interaction and policy paradigms. I deal with urban others. and it's very important also the agency

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of the local actors. And then we want to understand how local actors make sense of children's incorporation while while negotiating similar national restrictive migration policies.

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And then, when we think about the structures, and there are institutional legacies in each one of the municipalities. And in Tel Aviv it's like a centralized segregation

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that it was constructed through years and in Jerusalem a corporate. This integration. I will explain that a bit later, and speaking about self-making. Then we see that in Tel Aviv

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the categories used are a residential categories, and like a liberal blindness based on recitation categories

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and in Jerusalem, it's a particularistic category. But looking at asylum seeker as one of the many communities in the city.

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We here in Tel Aviv there is a centralised public private partnership. At the centre is Mesila, that is a unit in the administration in the Tel Aviv administration and cooperate with private, but mainly Ngos, and they deal with asylum seekers and undocumented.

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And I was not going through all this, but

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we see here for that in in acres the

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large part of the children are in babysitter or unregulate. They care, and part of it more than 500, and they are regulated and supported by the administration.

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The preschool and schools in Tel Aviv are completely segregated in a few schools in the south of Tel Aviv.

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and

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but institutional legacy are not static, and they are harnessed and mobilized by local actors.

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and we have seen that, for instance, in education. It's.

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he said, bye.

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a residential category, and we can hear what the

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director of the Tel Aviv Education Authority, she how she explained that it's not segregation. It's the schooling zone. There cannot be segregation in a neighborhood where 100% of the students are migrants. Even if we wanted to integrate, there was nobody to integrate them with. We don't segregate. We build school for the neighborhood. Okay, that was her explanation.

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And then

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in social services that was education and in social services. What is the sense making, and what are the discourses used? We see, for instance, that they are the children of asylum seekers are defined, as

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many of them are, some a complete school like special needs, children. Okay, and also asylum seekers. Children are defined as at risk. Then that way the social workers. They can attract budget

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and use them for these kids.

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In changing the definition of using these categories.

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Then Jerusalem, Jerusalem is completely a different legacy

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in the Administration. It's a cooperatives decentralized and and also under funding

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a.

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We see that there are 3 elements in in Jerusalem administration or in the way of integrating children, the Ngos networks, Jewish and Christians, community administration and municipal, and of course the municipal, and they work together. There are a Christian Ngos from the

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A colonial period, and the Daikers asylum seekers. Families send up Chindra to Christian dancers. They work in cooperation with the municipality. They trend the teachers

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in this. and the

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the caregivers. Okay? Then we see that there are a Jewish Ngos that they focus on migration. Usually it was Jewish migration on intercultural work, and

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in order to promote a city that is better adapt to the many identities that

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they call it home. We know that maybe you don't know that Jerusalem is very, very genius. We have a very, very tgenious population, and that's why the Ngos work on trying to

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to work together all this different community to deal with the differences in this community

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and the committee administration. I will not explain it a bit complicated, but it's a specific to Jerusalem, and they are providing welfare services very localized. And then we can see that, for instance, the community administration, they

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conduct some activities like yacht use at risk after school clubs or new Maraths club, and these activities are conducted in mixed groups of refugees also. To do an Anglo-saxon student really a mixture of different

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the population.

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Okay? And when we speak about sense making

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in Jerusalem a.

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we see that the institutional legacy are not static, and then a.

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The local actors. They try to use some categories in order to help the asylum seeker to provide more

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services.

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and how they do that.

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And they said, asylum seekers. Seekers are one of the many communities of the city.

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A local actor promoted the view that the asylum seeker community is one of the many communities

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of the city.

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an in

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in the area of education, we see that it's a decentralized

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and they decided

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to define a 10% court of asylum seeker in each school, and it it is done through the triangle lines, and that

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and this way the children can access the school, that they are not in the neighborhood.

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Then what we learned about our study is that

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the local child of migration policy is very important.

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that cities are social actors.

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and it is important to think about the local term of migration policies

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and the politic of bordering, and a higher case of the service.

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A.

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The same neoliberal processes that delegate. The incorporation and management of migrant children are those that make the city

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not just a subsidiary of national policies, but also an active agent in the shaping of migrant children, forms of incorporation and experienced liminal legality.

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And then we can see that this local term was.

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was it conducted differently, or

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put implied differently in the 2 cities. Tel Aviv in the it's a centralized

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and that is a cosmopolitan city, Tel Aviv, and encouraged a centralized neoliberalism that in the name of universalism and legal status. Blindness adopts educational and social segregation.

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Jerusalem, city of religious and national tensions, characterized by neoliberal cooperatism and a co-governance model encouraging intersexual cooperation and consultation

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between municipality and Ngos and conduct a particularistic integration, distributing migrant children in quotas up to 10% in school bringing institutional legacy into the analysis allow us to link between and even ways in which neoliberal processes evolve in different cities.

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The last one, a urban governess in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

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The Centralist, Liberal versus particularist

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governance point to the way. Actors

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make sense of local structure of service provision in order to grant services to criminally legal children.

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but they also earnest, inherited, institutional structure to negotiate inclusion.

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include an option and create a new interpretation of policy. Decision to respond to the needs of legally non-existent children. These findings allow us to point out the role of local institutional legacies, play in the structuring of different hierarchies of disabilities in cities, despite

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being situated in a common national migration regime.

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Thank you very much

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to that, and

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which points to the

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with ordering and other similar theoretical conceptual framework. So thank you for that.

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Our next speaker is Eduardo Babaris.

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I hope I pronounced you

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so. My presentation is about some professional between within the refugee system in in Italy.

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that contribute to asylum magic education. This is a field we we know, from a very long literature. Now it is a kind of houlette in which everything can happen because of different levels. And we have a literature, different bodies of literature.

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working on different issues that show why we have. this refugee who let in in in many, in in the global North. So difference idea of refugees and different legitimizations in the public sphere of what a refugee is

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usually changes of restrictive changes in formal laws professional and practice and doctors involved, and strategies used by the asylum seekers themselves to navigate the system that create different pattern opportunities and chances for refugees themselves.

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And here the focus is on the professional practice of actors involved in.

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So the definition of refugee

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might be

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written in the low. But it's actually a biological process.

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in which there are different representations that work to be a dev and contribute to this battleground, that the asylum field is in which different voices may may filter selectively, and then

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The final contribute to define the 12 fifth, a year of the refugee in particular, there's the legal dimension of how we define the 2 refugee in a way on the the of the

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C which you make of the low maker is to

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erez agmoni sort out what the real refugee is, and this purchase process happens in the asylum adjudication legal process that at different procedures in different contexts. But it's the way in which you legally became a a refugee. And this is the process. We're going to focus 101

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 so we have a kind of contradictory elements in this field. The government mentality of refugees, as did as we call it.

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implies 2 different and contradictory dimensions. On the one hand, we had a long process of international institutionalization of fundamental rights and refugee rights, starting from the Geneva Convention onwards.

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So with the idea that there's this international Character of being a refugee. But, on the other hand, there is no internationalization at all on the practices of adjudication that are often national, if not local. And so the effect is that the actual asylum adjudication. So how these 2

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international institutionalization Kamazim practice is thely related to national legal grades, negative toes that may develop at different levels, international national, local and key actors, negotiations that usually are another

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grassroots or a bottom up level.

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So this means that there is a complex set of others that in Thehatan work, on that, with different mandates and different perspectives, different strategies, values behind the idea of adjudicating refugee status.

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So we might have some sort of strong definition that labels that are top down and written in the low, so to say. But then how this becomes reality is often top down from key decision makers.

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and with different street level boiler cups with different of for maneuver that they have

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discretionality, discretionary power is a key. Factor, and here it is.

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It's the sounding of of Ipsky's work on on state level. Do. I can see that these actors are de facto policymakers, because they are those that make

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translating into a reality what the general idea of refugee and refugee status is.

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so we have a focus on different types of street-level boards in in the asylum adjudication process.

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asylum case workers and officers. Those that interview And or See the practices, the papers and red tapes. On, on asylum! application! And we have studies on how they are trained! What are the prejudices.

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how how they adapt their own strategies to that of their own groups of co-workers.

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asylum judges.

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which are in some counties.

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Erez agmoni, we have 2 levels. In some countries it's a and I think sometimes in tribunals, in some others. Not so the criteria they use, and with this one

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important. Many importance work on on the issue of credibility, which, since you cannot be certain, so to say, on what the story is behind.

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that the asylum seeker Application, then you check if it sounds credible. So credibility is a key issue in in the adjudication process.

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And then we have a set of of of research on other actors, Ngos volunteers, mediators, internation, organisation operators. Okay, we go more or less in this third side. focusing on legal operators in Italy.

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So what are legal operators? In a way. They are a bridging professional. They work in

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accommodation centers in shelter and reception centers for for for asylum seekers

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and help people to make their own application for for asylum.

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Often they are females in this field. In this sector more or less, 75% of of employees are female.

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With a degree of law in low, but not often. This is not even a requirement to be evaluated in low. So most of in many cases, the it's simply a kind of social worker or things like that, that gained their skills on the job and then are recuited with the specific qualification of legal operators.

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They are in a liminal position, because many people that work in these sectors have kind of

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the ideology of supporting refugees, and

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they are not recruited by the States to say, but it's our

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outsourced the system, so they are evacuated by usually ngos, that that then define the accommodation.

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But at the same time they are in a way in charge of a public office. So they are, cox in the system. So that's it's kind of strained position.

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so they respond to plural mandates. Those are institutional mandates, professional mandates, peer group

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among different social workers, mandates and different value hierarchies

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at the same times. They're not a full profession. It's not a kind of bar of legal operators, they are not even lawyers most of the time, so they are not involved in the bar of lawyers.

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so they are not a clear public recognition.

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They are contextualized with the very Piccavi's contacts, easily short-term, low pace  and they are calculated by organization contacted by the State to manage asylum facilities. Often they work in inter-professional teams with anthropologists as managers, and like.

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So the goal is to support the application and the asylum seekers application, including preparing them to the interview with the committee. So with the people that evaluate the and the application.

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so they contribute in building the 2 refugee, so the one that passes through the legal channels.

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So I mean they are breaching a hold what they do.

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in which direction are they able to turn the opportunities to steer the opportunities to reduce discrimination, to improve adjudications?

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They since

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and they are somehow activists. Are they

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interest and in a position to play the system now, to try to achieve their goals as activists in a way.

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so this happens in a system that I mean, first presentation, like comments already presented, something that we sounds a lot in which there's a lot of pressure

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and a suspicious gaze toward asylum seekers in the of the so-called

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As I migration emergency in the last year in the Mediterranean, I there's been a restriction

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of asylum opportunities. And so we conducted interviews, and we had asylum seekers. File included their Memos, and and we had the ethnographic observation on their daily work in 3 years in Italy. So we will check. 2 examples, just to see how they works. One is their contribution invalid, the memo. So it's the written story that they present

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to the asylum officers, and it's very important as a part of their assessment, and the valuation of the procedure and legal operators contribute in making the story plausible. for the for the asylum education process. So the idea is that they contribute to produce good stories that they sell well to the to the asylum committees that evaluate it.

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So they have to build stories that fit within specific criteria that they know, or they hope to know.

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that that work for the the committee negotiating with this trust from asylum seekers. As I know Zika's own idea of what is a good story, what they want to tell because of them. They don't want to tell much of very delicate and complex. Stories

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so 2 examples! One is in supporting to help. memo! So here the story of a Guy. From Bangladesh, and he says, Oh, I come from a rich family, and the legal operates. Good, very good. So they know that you are not an economic migrant.

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Yes, but my kill. I killed my uncle.

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Okay, no, don't tell this. It's not a good idea.

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but that's the reason why I I run away. No, you cannot tell this.

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The legalo potatoes, in a way here

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is not complying to an institutional mandate.

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It as a in charge of a state authority, it shall say, Okay, just write a good story. By the by, 2 story. I don't know if you are eligible or not.

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Instead, place towards the idea that anyway, the guests of the reception center obtain asylum. Let's try to write a story in which you can get a without telling the bad part of the story.

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The other part is not a private quotation. It's part of an ethnographic diary, so a coordinator informs for for women that they do were rejected, their asylum application was rejected. They start to grieve.

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and Basically, the coordinator had taxed them.

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So you did not follow the legal operator advice. It's your fault if you were rejected.

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because you just go on repeating the silly stories that someone told you. You had a good story. You had to tell that you were a traffic and woman. We know the traffic and the woman are okay. You are a traffic and woman. Why didn't you tell that.

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So you can appeal. But next time use the good, real story.

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You have to comply

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with the stivial-type that built up a good refugee.

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So here there's a lot of violence and the symmetry in a way in which this is

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interaction.

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and the 2 refugees shall comply with this idea of perfect victim

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to be prepared for the gaze of the asylum officer.

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And

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so we talk about negotiation. But here the Refugees Agency is very limited, so comply with the story that I built for you, because I I want you to get the asylum. So obey to me. Basically.

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So in the Mahal economy of asylum, there's a lot of distrust

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going to. What conclusion?

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Toward asylum seekers, both in orbs and illegal practice. Here the last story is strongly as a story of of this trust.

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and legally operators try to balance, they somehow pro-immigrant or Pelosi in Mexico advocacy with the strict legal requirements that they have to fit in with on the committees that evaluate the the procedure, and with stronger symmetries, because climates and professionals are

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in an unequal power position, but also legal operetto has asylum officials are in an unequal power position. Asylum officers are in a much stronger position. Even from a contactual point of view. They stay there while the legal operators may change one day from the other one.

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So data I up to to help applicants to make this story intelligible or translatable in what Ozilla asylum officials like. but these entitles are risk to reproduce labels and categorization that are negative for our asylum applicants, and so including some stories that may deserve recognizability, but not within. How, as I don't official think

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so, legal operators are somehow to happen within this unequal field.

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And Also with quite a limited, so professional self- reflectivity, also because of their weak like, position as a professional.

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Thank you.

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I wish we no time for this question, so I'd like to.

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Oh, okay, thank you. Yeah. I did not hear back from them. So that's fantastic. So we have the presentation.

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and there you go?

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 should be learning.

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 do we have someone from tech here, no.

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yeah.

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doing it.

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Hello, everybody, my name is Yula Kosako, and I'm happy to be here. Thank you very much for having me. and I will present you the paper entitled Global Norms Regional Practices. It is based in statistical discrimination in asylum.

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a decision making in Germany. This is a joint work with Islamida Gondaka from the Institute of Employment Research, and Carol Schneider from the University of Constance, and I myself

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affiliated with the Institute for Employment Research in Nuremberg and University of Pampa.

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Let me start with the observation of variation in protection rates across German Federal States between 2,015 and 2,017. So if you look in in the on the figure, you can observe different variation rates for different countries of origin across various states in Germany. So, for example, let's start with asylum seekers from Afghanistan. So this is a plus here you can see that the recognition rate ranges from 37% in Brandenburg

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to 69% in Bremen for Eritrea, and the the recognition rates are right between 78% to 95%. And for Iraq between 40 to 94. So Iraq is represented by triangles. So you can see here the variation is really lightship

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for applicants from Syria, and this is asked squared squares, and from West Balkan their protection rates. Variation seems to be much less moderate, but much more moderate. So

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so at this regional variation is basically not unique. To Germany there is ample evidence for vast regional differences in the acceptance ratios of asylum seekers

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in the U, in the Us. In Germany, Switzerland, and Canada, and this has been often attributed to discrimination in the asylum decision making process. However, the majority of existing studies operated mainly on the macro level and individual conditions and reasons to apply for asylum

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remain rather neglected. So basically, here we ask, we ask whether extra legal conditions, so conditions that are other than individual humanitarian needs may shape asylum process in Germany

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and previous literature showed ample evidence that, for example, individual characteristics of asylum seekers like age, gender country of origin, and their characteristics of of the decision maker. Like political preferences, I have to say here that this evidence comes rather from small scale studies of qualitative evidence, but nevertheless, it is an important evidence.

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Also. Studies has showed that characteristics of region are receiving. The asylum seekers matter like political. The top demographics, economy, or

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the characteristics of the country of origin of the asylum seekers, have also been shown to be important. And here, for example, level of democracy, exposure to boiled conflict, but also economy.

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Our theoretical framework is rooted in taste-based discrimination, theory following which individual preferences and prejudice of the decision-maker make affect decision outcomes. And we also refer to statistical discriminations here which states that information gaps regarding the application applicant may force the decision-maker to resort to stereotypes

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and to assess whether another theory applies. We ask, basically several questions. So first, to what extent to individual characteristics which are unrelated to asylum, see, may affect individual asylum outcomes.

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and, second, toward extend to regional political preferences of the public, and governments may shape individual asylum outcomes, and if we

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able to answer those questions, they should give us some sign on the role of taste-based discrimination in our case. For statistical discrimination we ask whether individual characteristics and regional preferences becomes stronger, and they have stronger effect on individual asylum outcomes under circumstances of large information, gap

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all scarce and resources. So if there is, for example, there is a legend, information gaps, then the individual characteristics and regional preferences might become even stronger, and predict probability of asylum outcome.

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more empirical investigation. We rely on the individual-level data from the yeah. So of refugees. Years, 2,016 and 2,017.

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The data is representative for refugees who arrived in Germany between 2,013 and 2,016. Our sample size is slightly more than 4,000 observations, and we exclude

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We include only first-time applicants with decision. Between January 22, 2,015, and December 2,017, and also only those with non-missing information on asylum date in type

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of the decision and as well as residency. we to infer on the role of local characteristics. We consider various macro-level data sources of German regions, and also countries of origin. To infer on them

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are all Of where people are in the situation there. Our dependent outcome is a probability to receive asylum application approved.

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and we estimate this using lead and probability model. Our debate. Results are also passed if we consider nonlinear models.

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And here immediately, I start with our results with the multivariate results. So. yeah, we based on our certical predictions we defined. Various hypotheses, but unfortunately, I I don't have time to go through all of them.

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However, just to show you so the first group considers subjective asylum reasons which refer to asylum, so reasons which should be considered during the asylum process. So here individual reports why people left the country of origin, then the objective asylum reasons here.

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the the situation in the country of origin, like freedom in the world's core, and then a of conflict-related deaths.

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Then, further, relate to individual characteristics and regional characteristics what we call workload. So

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workload of asylum seekers and then various controls so, and in in line with asylum legislation, we find that personal reasons for asylum. So look here, Starch, as a living origin because of war, was recruitment as well as extreme situation in the country of origin. So here.

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 they ultimately did a mind protection chances. Still, our analysis on on a bit vigorously shows that some groups of asylum seekers have lower chances to obtain protection in Germany than others, and here, in particularly Muslims and men.

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Moreover, regional political preferences seem to also to affect the asylum decision making a regime. So here asylum applications are percent less successful in the regions with more restrictive administration or a more immigration, averse population.

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and this indicates that the decision made by administrators of the pump are subject to taste based discrimination.

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Our further results show that if their information and deficiency is improved, this may reduce it stereotyping.

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So, for example, if there are enough information on the origin situation, the discrimination of Muslims goes back so they there this negative

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a situation where they can have lower chances of recognition, and this is less pronounced pronounced. And also this is a case for those with more abstract asylum claims, such as prosecution, which is basically very difficult to prove.

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But we do not find that in improving information, deficiency, deficiency improves situation in more conservative, local, or governmental, in terms of governmental attitudes.

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in a nutshell. Our analysis provide ample evidence for taste-based discrimination in German asylum decision making based on the individual characteristics. So we'll find the negative discrimination against males and Muslims. And this will also observe regional political preferences to be important for

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probability to get individual asylum approved asylum claim. We're also so I'll find some hints for statistical discrimination. well, if discrimination like that, we observe that discrimination increases with knowledge, gaps against males, Muslims, and individuals fleeing for persecution. But knowledge, gaps, or time pressure, do not alter the effects of political preferences.

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and to conclude. Political preferences, indeed, translate into law of protection chances for asylum seekers, and it is thus a matter of taste rather than met of knowledge, gap, or workload this question, these questions, basically Germany's self-conception as a State under the rule of law, we do find that extra legal considerations supersede global norms and national asylum law.

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and this becomes even more important in the current situation. Where there are asylum procedures or asylum application in Europe.

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is planned to move to the borders of the European Union, which will likely increase the discrimination of individual claims particularly due to time, pressure, and knowledge gap.

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Thank you very much, and I'm happy to get in touch.

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And for chair. I don't think Litvina or Julia online from what I checked now. But, nonetheless, if you have questions. I'm happy to pass them on to them.

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 I think.

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 friends.

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and Sarah is our last speaker today, and then we'll head into the questions.

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Ok, it's nice to hear and share with you all, and also learn from you all those have been so interesting. I'll try to make it interesting for the last presentation.

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 so my research is looking at health care advocates in their conceptualizations of deservingness to support precarious status persons in Ontario, Canada.

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I'm at York University in Canada.

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And I'm currently a Phd student. This is my dissertation research.  so today, a little bit of what I'm going to be looking at is

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how migrant health advocacy work is sort of negotiated and navigated in Ontario, Canada.

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So this is a little bit about what I'll look at some of my main analysis findings my conceptual work, a little bit of methods.

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My main research aim is to look at how health inequity is in assembled process in the context of Ontario.

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and my secondary aim is to look at the ways that health care advocates actually work to actually do this work. So how they engage in strategies.

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To negotiate this access.

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I'm using the term precarious status persons, which I think the second preventer is kind of touched on with. This is a goldering in landholds term. So  anyone who's sort of false in this category of having a work permit, you know.

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Study, permit, etc. Also non-satisf folks.

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So just a little bit of a background context of what health care. And Ontario looks like. In particular, I did this research over the covid pandemic, and did interviews during that time, and the health care access actually changed during this time, and was reverted back.

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So in Ontario Post, or sorry pre-covid.

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It was a sort of Patrick access to care. So people who had work permits, for instance, could technically get access to care. But

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they would have to get it through. Their employers and

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people on study permits, you know, had access, but had to get it through the university. It was not really coverage.

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We also have this thing called interim Federal health, which, again, is, it's it's limited in scope. Non status. People could go to the hospital and get care technically, but they would have to pay.

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So of course, this creates a lot of difficulties. Paying is unfeasible. But also, as Francis mentioned, there's this sphere of deportability and deportation and the fear that's sort of associated with that that we see here.

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So there was this Ministry of Health Directive that happened March of 2020 and destructive, was in place for almost 3 years.

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This gave access to medically necessary care and health care services to everyone, regardless of their status

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and

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So I was speaking to people at this time, and I spoke with, I kind of define street level with bureaucrats a little bit Lucy Goosey. So I'm looking at

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health care workers.

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Also, people who community organize and also people with lived experience of having piccurate status. So both paid and unpaid positions people who are helping out in this way. So I'm speaking to people and talking. During this

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period of time

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this directive was in place until March of 2023, and it just recently ended. So during this time there was a lot of advocacy around both getting it in place. In the first place, and also

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now that it's been revoked trying to, you know. Get something back. That's similar, or

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you know better. Possibly.

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So, as far as what I did. I interviewed 47 migrant health advocates, and

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some were health care workers.

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Most were health care workers, actually about 30.

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And then I also spoke to a few people in community organizing and precarious status the rest of the folks. I also did a document analysis that looked at health care centers and hospitals, looking at the gray literature.

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And then I did an analysis. Looking at thematic and discourse methods

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for my conceptual framework, I draw from bordering literature.

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 looking at how discretionary decisions are made around health care, access.

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And in particular, I'm drawing on this assemblages literature that's in

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ordering and citizenship studies.

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So I find the I was using the Legus Paloma Valegas's work on her book north of El Norte.

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She talks about assemblages as the sort of frame that we can use to understand power relations.

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Assemblages are sort of like, if we take it in the context of the health landscape in Ontario. They are all the ways that

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other institutions, other actors, levels of governments. How do these all intersect and interact with the healthcare landscape in Ontario? So looking at all of the sort of moving parts.

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and how in particular, I'm interested in looking at how advocates can work within this context to try really

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use strategies

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and use ways of their knowledge, and used ways of trying to produce change, basically countering hegemonic discourses.

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So. But this valegus draws on ways of knowing in ways of feeling. So those are sort of useful terms that I've found.

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And in this way I'm arguing that health inequity is reassembled by

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Health care advocates.

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 So, in terms of a little bit of my analysis. I'll speak to 3 parts that I'm looking at. These are sort of what I

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envisioning as my 3 chapters that are like half written, and I need to get done. So

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first of all, I'm looking at advocate strategies. How they engage, of ways of knowing.

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and

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how they do this through relationship, building, solidarity, building coalitions, all of the sort of ways that they

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 engage in. What am Brassini calls promotion of networks, people engaging in protests, people in like actually providing services to people on the ground.

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So I found in my research in speaking with people that people are engaging in these strategies in in various ways.

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So I keep pushing up against it.

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I'm like, I'm too tall or something. People are engaging in various ways, and they're doing this sort of side of the desk work

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where they're doing their job as health care workers. But they're also, you know, doing things on the side making phone calls.

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And then they're also doing things sometimes like actually going to rallies, or.

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you know, doing things that are a little bit more broad in structure. So to try to tackle structural

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things.

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so I found that advocates engage in these simultaneously, and I argue that in doing so they're interfacing with the assemblages of countering hegemonic discourses of

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deserving this and healthcare entitlement.

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The second point that I have been looking at is, how. how do health care workers? How are they actually motivated to engage in this advocacy work?

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I found that advocates are motivated by their ways of feeling.

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So

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this has been a little bit established in the literature. I'm trying to say that

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they're motivated by feelings of responsibility as health care workers.

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People mentioned, you know, feeling like they

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need to do this or that. They're responsible. They're sort of responsible to do this. And their role as a nurse or a doctor. people also talked about human rights reasons for doing this work. You know. Everyone is entitled to health care and feelings of compassion.

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and by that I mean a sort of a humanitarian lens, sort of like. People are doing this because they

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feel a sense of

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You know what I argue? what what Sarah Ahmed kind of argues, you know, as getting into this emotional territory like, are you actually

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feeling a sense of solidarity towards this person? Or are you feeling like they are in need? Sort of? And so I'm sort of grappling with that in my

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work on compassion.

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So again, I argue that advocates have multiple and sometimes conflicting reasons for advocating which can lead to emotional distress

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and

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being involved in this advocacy at both the level of individual and systemic levels can help to ease this feeling of emotional distress.

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I found that

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people who I spoke to were engaged in. You know I'm I'm thinking of one person who I spoke to, who was a black woman and social worker and

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she said, like when it gets too hard and her day to day work. Then she goes to work. She's part of. She leads an anti-racism committee, and she a migrant justice does micro justice work. So she sort of retreats towards that migrant justice work

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in order to see the bigger picture, and to know like what she's doing in the day today is worth it, and that she can see it in the context of something bigger and more big, broader change.

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So I argue that an analysis of emotional distress can be beneficial to understanding the tensions that exist in migrant agency. There's a lot of work that's done in

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healthcare settings on this idea of moral distress. So looking at this in the context of advocacy and the work that advocates do, I think, can be beneficial.

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So just in summary health, inequity can be understood as this assembled process.

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one that is dynamic and changing, composed of many moving parts, I

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argue that advocates are engaging in these strategies. They're engaging in ways of knowing, producing knowledge and practice

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and ways of feeling, their advocacy work which can

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work to count our hegemonic discourses of deserving this and healthcare entitlement.

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advocates, motivations can shape their strategies that they're using and and sort of inform them, and also that feelings of emotional distress can arise when the work feels disconnected from these broader structural factors.

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I think I'll stop there. Thank you.

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Yeah. So

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I

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hoersas8: from Vienna

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to this.

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 just a sick. I hope you can hear us well online, or to stop sharing from us.

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hoersas8: that's quite a few.

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hoersas8: How are you doing

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very good. So thanks very much for really fantastic papers, all 5 of them, although we

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for the speakers here.

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There's all kinds of connections that I see with. We in the papers

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got lots of questions, but I think, for now I'll just like to hand over to you for questions, and maybe I start with the

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online questions because you know a lot here in the room and I'll just read them out.

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hoersas8: sorry, Martina. I I had a look at the check, and there are no online questions but least shelling. if She with Octavia Sacramento, the first distributed paper, if we are planning to give them the possibility to present briefly.

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hoersas8: give it a short into their distributed papers or not. I don't know how you how we are scheduling. What did you say, Martina?

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I think we're good for times. We've got

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We've got 40 min, I believe, for questions.

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hoersas8: So in that case. I would ask this

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hoersas8: to present briefly the paper she wrote together with Olivia, please.

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Liz Challinor: Okay, thank you very much. The the paper was written with, what have you?

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Liz Challinor: nasty mental, and Pedro Gabriel Silver? When you say briefly, may I just have an idea, please, of how much time I have.

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Martin, you got to be, say, 5 min, and I would say, I I will take a couple of minutes, please, so we have enough time for discussion. So really, just a snapshot to sell your piper, because obviously, that can be distributed. Then by email to everyone. 5 min. 5.

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Liz Challinor: Okay?  okay, right? Well, thank you very much. So

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Liz Challinor: so

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Liz Challinor: so the title of our presentation is rights on the ground. Street level bureaucrats, understandings and practices of refugee protection in Portugal, and we approach the professionals in this field as extension offices, reproducing and implementing the State bureaucracy, but also as change agents assuming responsibilities beyond their mandates, particularly when the State is absent or policies are not clear.

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Liz Challinor: Our field work was conducted in Portugal, as the title says.

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Liz Challinor: from the viewpoint of safeguarding rights. We We approach the topic.

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Liz Challinor: considering that the discuss, the discretionary nature of social policies in practice tends towards an ambivalence assuming different meanings and generating different repercussions. so in terms of methodology.

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Liz Challinor: the, I would like to just give a very, very brief overview, which is The data that we are discussing in our paper has been collected over a period of 7 years in 4 different interrelated projects.

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Liz Challinor: we combined multi-sided ethnography with semi-structured interviews.

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Liz Challinor: and we were looking at the political decisions regarding the hosting of refugees in accordance with EU commitments and larger international agreements.

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Liz Challinor: the territorial dispersal resulting from central political decisions, the implementation of policies at the local level, and the representations and expectations of refugees, practitioners, and other social and other street level bureaucrats.

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Liz Challinor: So we were looking at managers and practitioners of municipal councils, school teachers, directors.

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Liz Challinor: Ngo workers and Social Workers and the Institute of Social Security. So what do our findings tell us? They tell us that. there is a wide range of understandings and practices that emerge in critical areas of refugee reception. These include housing, health care, education, recognition of professional qualifications and labour insertion.

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Liz Challinor: our data illustrates how in Portugal there is a gradual slippage from the structural to the individual. So, in the absence of clear intervention, protocols and resources, the role that street level bureaucrats play, exercising their own capacity to to decide serves to reduce the relationships between the State and individuals to an interpersonal one.

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Liz Challinor: As such street level bureaucrats contribute towards the invisibility of the State and the institutional entity as well. And a good example of this is how the refugees frequently knew the names of their social workers without knowing the names of the institutions they worked for.

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Liz Challinor: Mit, Ctl and street level bureaucrats stated that they valued the development of these close relationships as learning opportunities. And so there we saw that there was quite a degree of inner reflection about their work. 101

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Liz Challinor: we found as well. But

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Liz Challinor: We also found that the the examples of how they went beyond their mandates, for example, in the case of the structural problem in Portugal, of lack of access to accessible housing. then social workers would give, there would give a verbal commitment to serve as informal guarantors.

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Liz Challinor: for renting pro for renting accommodation for refugees, which, of course, formally social security cannot do this. And so This was clearly contradicting the policies and the orientations that they received which would sometimes lead to punishments, and in the words of one of the district officials, we don't want it to be a process that leads to punishments. But

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Liz Challinor: but Staff are often punished by taking these decisions because they don't consult their superiors, who are not aware of the resources the the resources and mechanisms in place or insufficient. And so they're simply trying to resolve trying to resolve these these problems. And you know they shouldn't be reprimanded. What they need is to be capacitated, and they need to be given more resources.

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Liz Challinor: so the data collected amongst the practitioners with less know how training and experience of refugee reception shows also that they were prone to represent refugees as victims inherently vulnerable and disempowered, and this representation often precedes the

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Liz Challinor: and now lost my paper. Excuse me, this often precedes the

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Liz Challinor:  mit ctl, and sorry I've lost myself here now, with the pressure of doing this in 5 min it proceeds contact between professionals and refugees, so as such it functions as a moral market. Have I run out of time already? One?

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hoersas8: Do you hear me, please. I can hear you. Yes, I think. we shall proceed to the discussion papers. Thank you so much for the presentation, and everybody can write you an email and access the paper and cite your paper directly.

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Liz Challinor: Thank you.

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hoersas8: Thank you. This. So hi! From Vienna.

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hoersas8: I wanted to update you from the checks. I asked. But no one. And also in the list of participants online, no one of the other office of the distributed papers online. So and there are also no questions online. for discussion. So matina, I have questions, of course, as a Co. Chair

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of the session with you together. But maybe I picked the word to you.

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But these words online, I can hear you. So any questions, please come along. Yeah. So if you could just use the microphone, please, thanks.

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And my.

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okay.

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it. Okay.

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So I

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he

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the

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thanks very much.

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01:25:32.680 --> 01:25:34.360
would like to respond first.

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01:25:39.230 --> 01:25:41.470
 that it?

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Hello! I don't have any opinion about that. I think that this is a very. It's very influenced by Bruno Latour's understanding of

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the non-actors that they are also the actors. They are also agents.

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One of the things that we found in our field world

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is that even though sometimes we relate to the kids, to children as undocumented. This is a misnomer. It is a very serious misnomer, because in a situation in which they lack recognition

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and recognize legal status or steady and stabilical status. Actually, there is a proliferation of documents that they have to acquire, and starting with Iv. Numbers

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and several id numbers which I think that are very, very important in the bureaucracy and in the

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the politics of scale.

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01:26:44.280 --> 01:27:03.680
The Id Numbers for the Ministry of Education a different numbers, for this is part of the bureaucracy of this politics of imminent legality and ambivalence towards children. So you don't have any opinion. I think it's great, and it's a refreshing and important.

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01:27:05.750 --> 01:27:06.620
Yeah.

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So we collected the mammals as we also presented, and we have not yet analyzed that in

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they are not yet digitalized. So we need the first to be for it. Also a computer assisted

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analysis. But I think that they useful to work on legal perform activities on how they also define what is a good

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01:27:53.510 --> 01:28:09.319
refugee in our case, but in general, how they interact in the world process of assessing in the refugee status, because you can find some, I hope, some general

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01:28:09.510 --> 01:28:17.670
generalizable profiles that come out from the documents, and that build the

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help. Understand how the argument and the definition of the case is done, and you can find regularities

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in that. And also you can relate the documents with other part of the process. For example, one I was mentioning before the issue of capability.

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01:28:40.360 --> 01:28:47.619
So one of the key elements of the credibility is basically compare the memo with the interview.

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So

482
01:28:49.720 --> 01:29:04.680
to the point that our legally operators often discuss. If it is good to write the memo because it is not compulsory. because then, if you are the person that contradicts himself for a self. It's not a good

483
01:29:04.720 --> 01:29:06.320
outcome

484
01:29:06.440 --> 01:29:13.420
 but also using the document as part of the analysis. The process. I think it's

485
01:29:13.720 --> 01:29:26.239
it's very relevant because it it helps to this. In the time of we got the format. the general processing, which also documents our park.

486
01:29:26.750 --> 01:29:27.630
Okay.

487
01:29:34.420 --> 01:29:37.350
Thanks. I think Francis wanted to come next.

488
01:29:38.780 --> 01:29:40.760
Gymnastics.

489
01:29:43.520 --> 01:29:51.270
Yeah, I think that's a really good suggestion. I a lot of familiarity. But the Pr

490
01:29:54.270 --> 01:30:04.769
focus on thinking about materialities in different ways. I think it's actually very promising for this. But I think it's not just about documents. I think about thinking about digital materials.

491
01:30:05.400 --> 01:30:09.140
I think would actually be a big. then certainly in the context that I,

492
01:30:10.770 --> 01:30:16.110
the digitalization of migration management is this part of the so

493
01:30:17.770 --> 01:30:29.990
not for you. facilitating of interactions. And why? For us to see interactions between. it's in my. but actually looking at how those see

494
01:30:32.380 --> 01:30:34.839
so seeking justice, one actually shut down.

495
01:30:36.430 --> 01:30:40.080
I know a lot of the participants now we just struggled with. I think there is. No.

496
01:30:41.580 --> 01:30:47.979
it's an online. It's a way to side with material. It was a phone mine.

497
01:30:52.260 --> 01:30:53.100
The

498
01:30:54.690 --> 01:30:56.740
don't absolutely

499
01:31:03.510 --> 01:31:09.649
thanks to someone else there. Enough any other questions from the floor.

500
01:31:11.300 --> 01:31:13.910
And I might just give you Ella

501
01:31:14.340 --> 01:31:17.390
the floor for your question before I go.

502
01:31:19.770 --> 01:31:28.950
hoersas8: Thank you, Martina. I can not hear the answers when people are far away from the microphone.

503
01:31:29.580 --> 01:31:40.589
hoersas8: Okay, but we we'll consider that for the next round of questions actually interacting. friends, I'm very sorry for my interruption.

504
01:31:40.610 --> 01:31:50.239
hoersas8: I'm here in the seminar room with students, and I I was just introducing to them in German. So I'm very sorry that my microphone

505
01:31:50.980 --> 01:31:52.260
hoersas8: to know.

506
01:31:53.150 --> 01:32:01.560
hoersas8: So In fact, I think you were just speaking Francis about aspect, of seeking charges.

507
01:32:01.580 --> 01:32:26.660
hoersas8: and I was curious if you could say something more about the concept that you use of migrants justice do you think I mean up to now I was always talking and thinking about social justice for everybody. Do you think it is? useful that we should use a concept of migrant justice.

508
01:32:26.840 --> 01:32:37.239
hoersas8: or do we then, from differentiate even more between different social groups? societal groups?

509
01:32:37.690 --> 01:32:45.469
hoersas8: And I would also have a question for

510
01:32:45.960 --> 01:33:01.390
hoersas8: for Julia using Zakova. But she's not here. No, she's not here. So I I we And also I wanted to thank Sarah Martin for her presentation. Thank you so much.

511
01:33:01.390 --> 01:33:22.140
hoersas8: I was wondering that sociology of emotions. If you had the impression that you could do a paper, maybe, with your results on explicitly relating to theories of

512
01:33:22.210 --> 01:33:23.420
hoersas8: Thank you.

513
01:33:26.990 --> 01:33:45.929
thanks so much, Elizabeth, for the question. And don't worry about the incident earlier. These expense happen all the time. And so I I just to be clear. I wasn't necessarily proposing a a concept of of micro justice, but I do think it's worth at signaling explicitly the particular forms of injustice that

514
01:33:46.550 --> 01:34:03.679
that migrants experience. So in this particular context, the forms of institutionalized and freedom that exist for people on various kinds of precarious work and study visas, especially when their migration is not simply about

515
01:34:03.800 --> 01:34:23.080
as the State would see it. It's some kind of clear movement in and out to work, and then to go home, or something like that that is actually usually entangled then. in objectives or aspirations to remain long-term, that are actually cultivated by the State and the

516
01:34:23.130 --> 01:34:33.850
agents in various kinds of ways. So I think that that generates forms of injustice in an institutionalized way. And so I think it's useful to say, Well, what are the specific

517
01:34:34.030 --> 01:34:38.430
 ways in which we might see to respond to that.

518
01:34:38.520 --> 01:34:43.709
and the things that actually need to be drawn to that of justice.

519
01:34:44.050 --> 01:34:54.959
a place to focus on social justice, which is a broader term. But they're rather trying to signal explicitly the particular forms of on freedom that that exist around the migration that I ask you.

520
01:34:56.480 --> 01:35:00.509
Thanks, Francis and Sarah. Would you like to respond.

521
01:35:03.190 --> 01:35:06.890
And let us know if you can't hear us online, please, straight away.

522
01:35:10.640 --> 01:35:14.190
Yeah, thank you for your question.

523
01:35:14.650 --> 01:35:36.329
I. I'm very intrigued by the sociology of emotions, literature, and I have started to dip my toes into it a little bit, because I I do think it's particularly wrong with the sort of discourse analysis that I'm doing. I think that emotions can tell us something about people's intentions to do things or their their motivations for doing things.

524
01:35:36.450 --> 01:35:43.919
So I've been finding that with people's sort of motivations, for instance, with the social

525
01:35:43.960 --> 01:36:04.499
feelings of wanting to do something based on social justice or wanting to do it because of seeing health as being a human right for all I think about Sarah Amad's work is one of my favorites and How you know her ideas of feeling a sense of like anxiety and

526
01:36:04.820 --> 01:36:06.999
Feeling that that's

527
01:36:07.090 --> 01:36:19.829
with this anxiety comes a sense of solidarity towards someone else. It's not just that you are feeling some sort of humanitarian need to help, but rather that you're seeing yourself with the person.

528
01:36:20.140 --> 01:36:30.960
So I saw that a lot, whether they, whether my participants were talking in terms of we like we do this together, or whether they're talking in terms of like, you know.

529
01:36:31.620 --> 01:36:33.190
I tried to help.

530
01:36:33.340 --> 01:36:42.749
like the the way that we use language, I think, can tell us something about people's emotions, and that's something that I do find very intriguing, and I think

531
01:36:43.030 --> 01:36:47.860
I I hope what I found could be well suited for it. Yeah.

532
01:36:48.100 --> 01:36:56.750
thank you. It's good food for, thought. Adriana. Did you want to say something on the snap. I

533
01:36:57.240 --> 01:37:00.850
Is there any other question from the floor.

534
01:37:01.040 --> 01:37:10.790
others, while you're thinking about another question, I might just jump. Oh, sorry. Did you want to

535
01:37:11.360 --> 01:37:18.079
possible stuff?  so, Francis, you mentioned you show that the

536
01:37:19.320 --> 01:37:30.940
migrants on them for the migrants they are a position or situated in the center of the this location.

537
01:37:31.350 --> 01:37:45.750
And so I was wondering. one of the wow whether the different degrees of vulnerability which range from most of the medium to mine. There was one that was actually.

538
01:37:46.040 --> 01:37:56.400
when a different bit of vulnerability. the station, actually they correlate or translate into different degrees of Spr.

539
01:37:57.840 --> 01:38:00.250
Which he's a

540
01:38:02.980 --> 01:38:08.300
first conversation. No reason why do they express?

541
01:38:09.490 --> 01:38:23.000
You are. and also whether this a different, the types of vulnerability or the music vulnerability, how do they fit? Whether and

542
01:38:23.090 --> 01:38:34.139
so, how do they feed into this loop of, say, my, my. by understandable and the lack of responsibility but Europe?

543
01:38:35.080 --> 01:38:39.690
So this will be my question. And there is another one.

544
01:38:41.620 --> 01:38:53.059
We're we're talking about bureaucrats. So we have. I mean, before talking about street level bureaucrats or front like those, and those are the from nights, whether they are the first in the New Zealand.

545
01:38:53.200 --> 01:38:57.020
A. As a black.

546
01:38:57.320 --> 01:39:16.720
There are differences, for example, between Mr. We've got a group calling call to life that we mentioned. Health lives so between helplines that are run by governmental organizations or stemmers of our medical organizations and health and hotelines run by non-governmental organizations.

547
01:39:16.960 --> 01:39:24.659
because actually, they're they're doing a kind of supervision or shadowing. It was a one of

548
01:39:30.830 --> 01:39:48.819
yeah. I just might need to clarify the difference between just a second question. So the first question you're asking about whether the instinct to which of different degrees of vulnerability relate to the extensive migrants, the mistrust institutions, and the vice versa, is in relation to the

549
01:39:49.510 --> 01:40:07.799
which institutions distrust my friends. or something like that. We'll just talk about trust. And Bob Lily, yeah, okay, so yes, absolutely. The different degrees of vulnerability is probably worth saying that they I haven't really talked about. What

550
01:40:08.730 --> 01:40:21.769
about the reporting. But if I was to sum up, in short, what we really found is that there were a few things that led people to be more likely to be vulnerable to exploitation.

551
01:40:23.440 --> 01:40:35.779
they tended to enter through more precarious. These are pathways so often and low-level student basis. So and often, as a you know, that kind of reflected people coming from

552
01:40:35.950 --> 01:40:40.530
of a class background in the. So there was a kind of and

553
01:40:42.320 --> 01:40:55.629
absolutely, there are a small number of people in our research who came from like a bit of work-level or more developed contexts. They were, they were, they were. They, I trusted, the institutions much more, but they were also

554
01:40:55.790 --> 01:41:05.469
to much lower labels of exploitation, and often because we would argue, their employees didn't see them as vulnerable. So it doesn't quite happen.

555
01:41:06.700 --> 01:41:22.460
And I do definitely think that institutions mistrust of migrants in different ways. Particularly, I actually think there's a deep racial framing to that. that it actually is influential this vulnerability question.

556
01:41:23.130 --> 01:41:40.380
I guess the reason I mentioned what? How? I guess people we worked for in government. What they thought is because many of them had this. It was a big focus on South Asian migrants, and particularly those from India, and a strong view amongst the officials we worked for.

557
01:41:41.090 --> 01:41:53.539
This was a problem. Because most people, some of those people who are exploited were all other people from India or from Ivr. That's why they're and so read in that way. Those officials must cross it

558
01:41:55.740 --> 01:42:07.190
so they wouldn't read that they would end. They would not see that as an issue of the system, they would see if there's an issue with the migrant. so that it's very hard to challenge them. We could easily challenge them. I just didn't accept the chat.

559
01:42:08.960 --> 01:42:19.820
Are the differences between actors. Yes, absolutely so. I haven't really gotten to that here. So you can think of a to view

560
01:42:21.140 --> 01:42:35.000
organizations like what's called the Citizen's Advice Bureau, which is not just for citizens, despite the name, but as a community support organization which is funded for migrants working, they they definitely take a different view

561
01:42:35.010 --> 01:42:46.969
into thinking about. If you think about the validity and the legitimacy of migrants, there was variation in that group, but there were definitely some that I think. what it was.

562
01:42:47.060 --> 01:42:51.869
and seriously, in terms of that kind of notion of advocating for my job is to

563
01:42:53.000 --> 01:42:56.300
immigration officials the immigration authority

564
01:42:57.860 --> 01:42:59.849
authority. That's theory here.

565
01:43:00.940 --> 01:43:12.770
and in some ways, I guess, with the kind of notion of a similar colonial state they see themselves. As it's one more half of the staff. So even though they're in relatively low-level.

566
01:43:13.049 --> 01:43:24.240
it's sovereignty. And I think that's not just about individuals within those institutions which and I think we are here in a particular. We are here to protect access to lines

567
01:43:24.600 --> 01:43:25.400
shit on the.

568
01:43:26.850 --> 01:43:39.140
So I think that culture, as it was the advocacy culture. yeah. that's here is, is more parent in those organizations outside of the State. I have. I don't. Okay.

569
01:43:41.750 --> 01:43:42.410
yeah.

570
01:43:45.500 --> 01:43:46.260
You know.

571
01:43:48.200 --> 01:43:49.329
this is.

572
01:43:50.490 --> 01:44:05.440
yeah. I have a question for Gary wadow and and Sarah, and I'm going to start with you about it, because but but I think it's really for bugs for you. That kind of jumps off from where I was told you, and be in there about the emphasis that kind of emphasis on

573
01:44:05.780 --> 01:44:19.099
advocating for for migrants in the if you spoke of that. There is a similarity between you. I doesn't. I heard that as a kind of a reflection on the individual orientations of the people.

574
01:44:19.370 --> 01:44:34.650
but in your research. I just wonder if there are certain cultures of cultures within those organizations that also. I mean. assuming that it's a case. Then what is the kind of what's the kind of dominant framing of

575
01:44:35.549 --> 01:44:40.479
asylum seekers for migrants within those is he kind of cultures?

576
01:44:57.260 --> 01:45:06.740
So I just briefly mentioned in the paper that they are in some interprofessional goods.

577
01:45:07.240 --> 01:45:19.939
and at the same time that they are semi-fashioned. So on the side of the semi-professions, it means that there's no kind of coordination. There's not a bar or something like that.

578
01:45:19.980 --> 01:45:21.509
They put them together.

579
01:45:22.230 --> 01:45:31.190
 there is some association with an association, a big national association that is called National Association for

580
01:45:31.260 --> 01:45:45.220
Studies like they should know. The stories do not study, just do actions. And that's it. That's organized a lot of training. And that's at creating

581
01:45:45.280 --> 01:45:58.710
some sort of semi professional. Oh, yeah. it's more directed to lawyers, but then also used to. But but by. like our paragraphs. And so basically, it creates the skills

582
01:45:59.040 --> 01:46:13.529
behind. And then, but in practice, most of the work culture comes from the individual organization. And also we have transformation here. since there has been a

583
01:46:13.590 --> 01:46:21.230
cutting and stained funding in that we have, as in film Ngos, to market our actors.

584
01:46:21.750 --> 01:46:23.559
And

585
01:46:24.150 --> 01:46:28.220
most of the goals have different

586
01:46:28.900 --> 01:46:39.359
in a way, often or he ended to say, Okay, people easier. We have to find a way to regularize

587
01:46:40.460 --> 01:46:49.830
Gmail. Why, for a market actors. Obviously they have it and go. It is what's the cheapest option we have.

588
01:46:50.400 --> 01:46:55.109
So if they stay longer they pay us longer.

589
01:46:55.520 --> 01:46:56.360
So

590
01:46:56.760 --> 01:47:01.989
the idea is not always to speed up the

591
01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:14.180
because you are paid per person per day. The longer face, the more presents, the more money you the season, the State and the

592
01:47:14.300 --> 01:47:22.420
they also cut services. So they have legal operators. But we share the albums. So you have less and less

593
01:47:22.710 --> 01:47:28.989
trained, or or from the first generations of the say legal operators that are committed

594
01:47:29.270 --> 01:47:32.680
with this organization, and

595
01:47:33.160 --> 01:47:37.480
basically new cameras with less training, less cultural

596
01:47:37.640 --> 01:47:49.349
of solidarity, say, coming in. So there's a kind of between different organizations that work in the field

597
01:47:49.490 --> 01:48:00.759
that is even institutionalized because you have the so-called normal as a standard welcoming a section system that is untrusted, the user it to Ngos, and then the UN,

598
01:48:01.030 --> 01:48:11.630
the emergency one which is using and trust to guide and not for us. These fields and defense within, and also in terms of opportunity for people, because.

599
01:48:11.770 --> 01:48:25.759
 The more you have leg out, even though we have seen that there are public in how they work. But actually, the more you have lego-operative support, the more it's right.

600
01:48:28.020 --> 01:48:38.349
So we can say that there are differentiation in culture on the one that I could say is still dominant, in which.

601
01:48:38.740 --> 01:48:43.740
between ideology and practice, the idea is.

602
01:48:43.870 --> 01:48:55.990
I have to find a way to have people with documents. because my idea is that we shall not analyze my weight. And then

603
01:48:56.110 --> 01:49:03.570
such a culture that is much less. And this  might be the

604
01:49:09.680 --> 01:49:19.469
I can say something quickly. Yeah, I think like adorable, I found is similar that, depending on the I won't say that.

605
01:49:20.570 --> 01:49:38.710
Keep the organization secret. So I looked at hospitals. I looked at community health centers, and I looked at people who work in migraine justice and community organizing.  definitely, I found that people in community health centers had a particular sort of orientation towards how they viewed

606
01:49:39.080 --> 01:49:51.450
migrants and asylum seekers, because in Canada and Ontario community health centers don't provide care to international students, for instance, or visitors.

607
01:49:51.900 --> 01:50:14.919
that care just wasn't provided. So there was a particular like, oh, this is a vulnerable group, but we don't provide care. So they saw it as a sort of limitation, and that was a in a science of moral distress for them. They raised that as like, well, we can't. We just can't provide care. And we do what we can. And we refer. I definitely found people in this setting were

608
01:50:15.230 --> 01:50:39.789
very oriented towards this sort of social justice mindset, and how? For how? For all that sort of thing versus when I was looking at people in hospital settings, I mean, some people worked and worked in both in particular, people working in reception in front like very frontline. There. There was this sort of sense of while they I had them self-defined as advocates. So I was very

609
01:50:39.790 --> 01:51:08.290
like letting people define for themselves while people were in this advocating role, and they saw themselves as advocates. They also I I could sense this sort of moral distress where they felt like they couldn't do enough, and there was just like they had so many people to register like, and they they felt a sort of hostility almost, and I could see that come out when I really like got down to speaking with them. So it's a sort of conflicted advocacy and

610
01:51:08.760 --> 01:51:23.450
just briefly on the community organizing side as well. There was a sort of tension, I I to healthcare workers who did advocacy work, and I spoke to migrant justice workers, and there was sort of tension between that where

611
01:51:23.730 --> 01:51:45.780
health care workers were seeing the issue of asylum seekers and migrants from a particular lens, from their lens of being health care workers and not necessarily racialized folks. And then migrant workers who were migrants, who were racialized folks who were in general like looking at it and saying, like, Hey, you're not seeing really what the actual problem is. And so

612
01:51:45.820 --> 01:51:53.769
there were definitely differences in the way that people saw the issue and saw how asylum seekers and migrants.

613
01:51:54.120 --> 01:51:56.620
How this sort of what the problems are.

614
01:51:56.760 --> 01:51:57.480
Yeah.

615
01:51:58.980 --> 01:52:05.649
I haven't forgotten a little bit over time, but I just tried to sneak in my quick question I might have.

616
01:52:05.660 --> 01:52:17.030
I might get your answers afterwards, or another day when you, when you have more energy. So what I would have asked is whether you felt that in the course of your research that you

617
01:52:17.130 --> 01:52:45.649
and the very fact of the research and the questions he asked instigated sort of a level of self-refectivity. on yeah, these actors positioning and whether you felt that something changes in their self-awareness of of the bordering that they engaged in, and the other more conceptual question would have been, some. A couple of you referred to, bordering as well and to other conceptual frameworks, and I was just interested how the street bureaucracies

618
01:52:45.770 --> 01:53:02.169
fit it in with those other frameworks, and what you find find more useful about one or the other. But that's for another day. So for now I just thank everyone for being here until this very light hour, and especially our presenters. So Eduardo, Sarah

619
01:53:02.170 --> 01:53:17.060
Adriana, Julia, and Francis, Nos. Octavia and Liz and the other distributed paper authors. Please contact them. If you're interested in that paper, and I hand over to Elizabeth one last time to remind us of something else.

620
01:53:17.720 --> 01:53:43.640
hoersas8: Yes, you very much, Martina. Thank you. for this wonderful presentation. And it happened, I just wanted to remind you that we are all very open my mind for submissions of abstract from our current.

621
01:53:50.850 --> 01:54:07.520
hoersas8: and you will receive your pending email from us during the last days again from Matina. We stand with the deadline for you. And so maybe you want to think about publishing in an article one.

622
01:54:07.520 --> 01:54:34.040
hoersas8: The working time to may change. It is now how to stream, level your overseas. Shame by with access to well, there! And this would be our pleasure to proceed. And also, maybe you want to invite people, you and think about having research in this area as well. Just please for what the email we would be, we would appreciate it a lot. And

623
01:54:34.380 --> 01:54:41.509
hoersas8: yeah, looking forward to further collaboration, thank you so much from Vienna.

624
01:54:51.610 --> 01:54:57.030
 I'll be. Can you hear me?

625
01:54:57.140 --> 01:54:58.160
hoersas8: Yeah.

626
01:54:58.250 --> 01:55:10.509
yeah. Okay, I'll touch price afterwards. I just.

627
01:55:10.900 --> 01:55:15.190
yeah. Ok.

628
01:55:15.260 --> 01:55:17.310
hoersas8: thank you. Thank you. Bye, bye.