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when you're done, just press escape. Never get you back to the name. When I finish, I I okay, so I will. It's terrifying. Right now. I think that you ready to have that. Yes, I already hope to have time today.

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following the rule of the of the country, I will read the analogy myth of the country on behalf of everyone. Gather I pay respect to the spirit of the country. Here, in arm where I we, we are meeting, I acknowledged the past and the present of kulination, wool and Jedi Wu as the sovereign people. Here the culture and knowledge holders who monsain and promote in our our regional law

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customs, and custodian responsibility for the country and the people. The country continues to sustain generation after generation

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into the future. For all of us

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I recognize the important contribution that first nation thinkers have made to sociology, including challenges

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to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nation delegates in the room today for the contribution to the knowledge in the discipline.

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So

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good morning. We start the session. Now I think that you can hear me online as well.

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 we will start with the with the first presentation. That is, title Mapping Barriers and support for carrying fatherhood. Analysis of Laws in 193 countries by Amir Rowe

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from Work Policy Analysis Center University of California, Los Angeles, United States University of Melbourne, Australia. So the first years

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thank you so much for having me here today and thank you to the organizers for organizing this important

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session.

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So

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all of the data that I'll be sharing with you today comes from the book equality within our lifetimes. How laws and policies can close or widen gender gaps in economies worldwide. And this book was really motivated from our shared understanding that progress towards gender equality and economies around the world has really stalled, and

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a lot of what we've seen people kind of just write off as being norms or something that we can't change. But at our center we really focus on laws. And

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while people have written off these kind of inequalities as implementation or norms, and there's actually a lot of inequality still embedded in law, and our idea is that by mapping these laws, by highlighting these inequalities, we can really urge policymakers and help strengthen the work of civil society to close legal gaps that perpetuate gender inequality. So why does this matter to caring fatherhood

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well, throughout the book we focus on gaps in unpaid care, and we're never going to solve gaps in unpaid care that perpetuate gender inequality at work. If we don't address men's caregiving before the pandemic. The Ilo estimated that 606 million women were out of the workforce due to unpaved care work compared to only 41 million men.

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So we have to address what's keeping men back from doing caregiving? If we're going to address gender inequality.

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why, policy data.

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a lot of the focus has been on outcome data. But policy data is something that leaders can be held directly accountable for. It gives civil society something to hold policymakers directly accountable for what they can change today, not something that we might not see the full impact for 10 to 20 years from now. It also enables more rigorous analysis that what actually works to move outcomes

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this is just an overview of the broader work that our center does, building quantitative measures of laws and policies. We have more than 2,500

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measures of laws and policies across 193 countries that matter to health, equity, and well-being

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in terms of all of the data that I'm sharing with you today. This is based on original legal text, legislation policy documents. It's coded by a multidisciplinary, multilingual coding team.

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Every indicator that you see was double-coded. That means 2 researchers read the legislative text in full. They answered questions about it, using a common framework, met and reconciled their answers, and then went through a full verification check to ensure the highest level of data quality possible.

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So what do laws and policies that matter to men's engagement and care look like

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we use mapping a lot to visually represent where the world stands. It lets you see really quickly where things are globally and where countries stand in context.

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So, as you can see, nearly all of the world guarantees paid leave to mothers of infants. This matters for setting caregiving roles from the start. That's every country except those in red, the Us. Papua, New Guinea, and a few small so Pacific Island States

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and

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Tidley for men is much farther behind. We give men far less support for caregiving from infancy, which means from the very beginning, there's far less support for men's engagement.

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for in care, and when it is there it's much, much shorter. You can see in many countries it's less than 3 weeks. These are very short leaves. This is really only a leave that to support, you know. Just basic recovery after birth, maybe only being there for a few days right after the baby is born.

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The good news is these leaves are increasing over time. So if we go back to 90 95, when the Beijing platform for action was passed a really big international agreement around women's rights. We see that only 25% of countries gave men any lead around the birth of their child.

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And now it's up to more than 60. So this is a really big increase. And what's more, it's happening in all regions around the world. Sub-saharan Africa, for example, seeing a four-fold increase over that time period. So it's not just that high-income countries are increasing. It's not just that Europe is moving. All regions are really moving on paid leave for fathers.

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but there is still a long way to go, and how these paid leaves are so structured to engagement and caregiving. We know that the structure of this leave it really matters. Men are more likely to take paid leave when it's either reserved for them, or when there are incentives to take longer leave.

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So

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only those countries in green on that. And this map really take those policy approaches of reserving longer periods of leave or having those incentives. And you can see that's really a small subset of the world.

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And this is just an example of kind of the more rigorous studies that, having the longitudinal data allows us to do so. This was a study looking at. If you did take those policy approaches of

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having incentives to encourage men to take leave. We merged it on to world values, survey

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data, and looked at changes in countries that introduced an incentive compared to changes in countries that didn't and found that using difference in difference techniques, countries that introduced these policy reforms were more likely to have less gender discriminatory norms.

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People were more likely to disagree with the statement that when jobs are scarce men have more right to a job than women. So we're starting to look at these types of analyses as well for economic outcomes.

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Another way that laws matter is they can reinforce out and data gender norms, and these are kind of hidden in laws and quantitative data. Lets us see that

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so paid leave for infant caregiving. You might expect there to be a gender difference around birth, because biological reasons, women

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are pregnant. Women need time to recover from childbirth, but there is no biologic reason around adoption, and yet all of the countries you see in orange or yellow. On this map they embed gender differences in paid leave for adoption, perpetuating that outdated Norm around caregiving that women should be caregivers.

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So this is just gender discrimination embedded in law.

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Similarly, much of the gender

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gap in employment is a motherhood penalty in many countries countries are increasingly recognizing that in their discrimination, legislation, and prohibiting discrimination at work based on caregiving status. All of the countries in green prohibit discrimination at work based on parenting status, or more broadly based on parenting responsibility. But those in yellow only do so for mothers.

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So men who, we know do face discrimination at work when they actually engage in caregiving, engage in active caregiving

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in those countries in yellow don't have any legal protection from discrimination, for only women do.

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And then, finally, a third type of law that is important to understand when thinking

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about engaged fatherhood are gender-neutral laws that can support me, caregiving

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so

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well. Most of the world has agreed

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on the importance of paid leave. Around the birth of the child there is far less support for caregiving. Once you get past infancy.

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The pandemic really highlighted the importance of care needs beyond infancy. As parents, we were told, we need to keep our children home when they have a fever. from the first sign of illness. But, as you can see from this map, there's very little legal support in countries to do that. So who stays home with a sick child?

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and without that support it's going to very often be women.

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Serious health needs can have very detrimental impacts

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on employment. And

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this just gives another example. While more of the world does have paid leave for serious health needs, it's still often inadequate to really meet the level of health need required. For example, some studies have found that after a child's cancer diagnosis parents often need a full year off from work to meet the full range of health needs. Very few countries have

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the paid lead needed for that so often. It's going to come down to questions about which spouse is the higher earner in the absence of pay that will really support those health needs. This is it just a sample of the type of data that we have online available to answer

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these questions. And again, we have richer data looking at also questions of affordability. And how is it structured to really support both parents being able to take paid leave.

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and then I know this is a session focused on fathers, but men also do have caregiving and caregiving needs. that go beyond just children. So I did want to include some caregiving slides that go beyond fatherhood to also include elder care and adult family caregiving needs particularly given the aging

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population worldwide and support for caregiving, for elder care needs is even lower than support for child caregiving

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which also has consequences for men and women

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economic opportunities.

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So how is this evidence used?

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this evidence has been used by civil society organizations, international government organizations. We've worked with men and gauge and others to help share this data to highlight where there are legal gaps that

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undermine opportunities for engaged fatherhood. This is an example. From a workshop we did with sunk a gender justice in South Africa in 2,015,

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and the book goes into more detail about this particular case. Study

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as part of efforts that some of the gender justice was working on to pass paid parental leave for fathers, partners, and adoptive parents.

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This was really motivated by one father's experience. with his child being in the nicu and just experiencing only having seeing fathers who only had 3 days of paid leave to be with their baby with, who was in the Nikku, and then having to return to work.

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and in successfully passing paid leave. They did use the global data to really point to examples of other countries who had more access to more leads that really supported fathers being able to be there for their children.

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all of the data that I've shared today is publicly available and downloadable on our website. We're a policy center.org, you can so fill center. However, you like

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 and that just shows you where you can go to download it. I'd also just flag that we have a more detailed

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article coming out on community and community work and family very soon. It's in page groups right now that will really be focused more in depth on how

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paid leave is reserved for fathers, and how that's changed over the past 20 or 30 years.

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And so thank you for your time, and we very much welcome.

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Thank you very much, Amy, for this test presentation. I'm sorry to to rush you to finish. I would like to hear more, but we have not so much time. So we go to a second presentation. That is.

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we're going to present them to like that. Areina.

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Okay, I know.

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Carrying of the separation Russian fathers to insurance from the University of Marijuana. Hi, thank you everyone for coming today. Thank you, Amy, for this amazing presentation. It was actually really interesting to see Russia been so

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advanced in theory of them. And it's true, like Russian legislation is quite generous for parenting. But I guess when it comes to implementation and cultural norms it's a little bit different, and that's what I guess I will aim to show today. So yeah, I'll talk. Sorry. My presentation is about Russian fathers and the experiences

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of co parenting after separation.

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I use the interview data from my Phd project, which is a comparative study between Australia and Russia. But today I will only talk about Russian fathers. My aim is to provide some insights on how Russian fathers experience and interpret co-parenting and caring, and how, and by the caring is integrated in the construction of contemporary Russian masculinities. I will also try to articulate some ideas on the gender regime of parenthood in Russia. In how Chief's father's experiences and narratives

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so K. Can be defined very differently. For this presentation I understand caring as an embodied practice which requires co-presence and sharing of daily routines between parents and their children

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understood as such care has recently been at the center of contemporary Western reflections on changing ideas of fatherhood, masculine interest in families, intimacy, and gendered power, care, and particularly at the right to care, is important for contemporary debates about separated fatherhood.

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Russian fathers, however, have to parent in a different social and political context. In existing research, Russian fatherhood is often depicted as marginalized.

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This idea includes several interconnected meanings. Russian fathers remain very uninvolved in domestic labor, especially compared with their counterparts. In other contexts.

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which is only exacerbated, but family dissolution. A Russian divorce. Men are often depicted as absent followers, but it is also on the merchants of the State's attention, which has had a long history of supporting working mothers.

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Russian and Soviet gender order have been underlined by the ideology of gender essentialism or gender difference which lives level room for recognizing fathers as cares.

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At the same time ideology seems to be kind of uncoupled from paternal power, or at least from its traditionalist grounds. As some research has pointed out, that men were historically deprived from their parcheal rights and the status of authority in the family by the Soviet state.

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so Russian father is often depicted as the beneficiaries or the victims of this domestic and structural marginalization.

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These are interviews with Rushamen. I want to understand how they make sense and experience. If experience at all this marginal position in parenting and place their experiences in the broader context of the gender regime of Fahrenheit in Russia.

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the first of all, most of the participants in my research were in absent fathers, and most of them were involved in parenting on a regular basis.

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however, often having kids for one night or less their contribution to routine care. Work was limited.

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At the same time 7 men did compare anything in a way that challenged the image of a marginalized father because they lived with their kids on a permanent basis, at least for some period of time, or shared days equally with their expiredness.

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at the same time defining for parenting in Russia is not very straightforward. There is no legal regime of shared physical custody under the Russian family law, so unlike, for example, Australian fathers who could secure their part of physical custody through a legally binding arrangement.

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Shared parenting and rush is inevitably informal and private. There also seemed to be no social guidelines on how it should be organized. So most arrangements that participants reported to me were very flexible and changed at Hawk.

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A common attitude in father's narrative was acceptance of any custody, arrangements and associated changes even made in a letter by mothers.

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So fathers never really talked about having a share of custody is their paternal entitlement. Rather they talked about care is work

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that constituted the natural responsibility of mothers.

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So in the interviews fathers talked about Case, the work of mothering. integrating the time they spend with children as their assistance they provided. It is this burden of this gendered work.

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So the quote from an interviews, Powell is quite illustrative. I will read some of the quotes or part of them, but not all of them, because we don't have much time. So this is how he explains the main purpose of taking the kids over the weekend.

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The weekends are organized, not even for me to spend time with the kids, but to let my ex partner have some rest. Children exhaust her by Friday. She can't handle them anymore. Sometimes I even take them on Friday night and bring them back on Sunday to give her a proper rest.

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or if she really needs to go on a date, for example, I can even take them for an extra day.

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So in the brackets the children's age is indicated at the time of separation, and the arrangement is indicated at the time of the interview.

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So this understanding, it was evident, even in cases when children actually lived with fathers after separation, which was often narrated, and being in fact temporary. From the interview. His koreal represents this kind of attitude, he said. Separation was harsh.

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The total breakdown of relations. The only things we agreed upon is that until she gets back on her feet. The daughter would stay with me, and she lived with me for 2 years. The wife found a good job and bought an apartment, and now the daughter lives with her and stays with me from time to time.

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although the view on father says secondary parents or help us is quite common in other context as well. The position of the Assistant parent was not just about the Nicole distribution of caring time. Also, that was true for the most cases as well, but they unequal distribution of responsibility in power. Mothers were expected to carry the greater burden of parenting, but they were also entitled to exercise discretion on decisions regarding care and custody.

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So in father's narratives, mothers were represented as parents entitled to decide on care arrangements.

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for example. In Mark's case, his ex partner decided on whether or not he could see his young son.

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I want to read this course because we don't have much time but you, this of them, or like in Mitre's case, his ex partner was entitled to decide on the number of nights the daughter could spend at his place.

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So father's talked about mother's discretion is their legitimate entitlement, which they accepted even in cases when they went particularly happy with the outcomes of this decision, even in cases of equally shared time which the father's practice at the time of the interview. Mothers, similarly had the final authority over care arrangements as they so quote the last quote, demonstrates.

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So the entitlement of mothers did not just stand from the amount of time they spent taking care of children, but was accepted, based on the idea of the essentialized gender differences in parental roles. In the same manner father's experiences of resident parenting were subjected to mother's decisions. Fathers may have stepped in when they experience required substantial assistance.

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but they were also expected to step away when mothers claimed their children back.

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The status of mothers, as entitled Chaos, is recognised and supported not only culturally but institutionally so. Father strongly believes that the legal practice will always be in favour of mothers in any disputes regarding care in custody.

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The right cases, when father's tried to dispute Resident's status only proves the futility of such attempts. This is well formulated by Anton. My father is a cliche. Care arrangements. the balance is custody is terrible, because currently you need to be

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also at the level of Jesus Christ and the mother should be based a drug addict in a horse, so you can get the child

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at the same time. Fathers, when often ready to question the status of motherhood

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as disputing the primacy of maternal care, was potentially challenging for their own gender identities, fathers who practice, shared care and wanted to be significantly involved, found it particularly difficult in their narratives. They expressed some concerns about the fragile positions as parents, but were very careful not to challenge the status quo

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again the from the interviews, and Tom demonstrates that

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he said the louis told me he won't get custody, and it wasn't like I wanted to take the child off her. Now. I was just really scared that. Well, she's an attractive young, well paid girl, and there's nothing that can stop her from finding in men and moving somewhere.

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I had thoughts about self-defense. Self-defense means that the custody would have been legally set with me, but I did not want to take the child away from his mother, even if his resident was legally with me, would have any way, done everything like we do now. They would have done everything like she wants just. I would feel more comfortable.

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Another reason for not challenging the primacy of motherhood with the status of What's that's the status of assistant parent retains the privilege of stay carefree in ambling fathers to be involved in children's lives without feeling obliged to share much of the burden of daily care work.

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So the concept of care-free masculinity is actually nails. How ones? I borrowed it, but didn't properly reference. So let me know.

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facing a dilemma between freedom and commitment to carrying father's often just to solve it in the favor of the former like Ivan. So it's a bit quiet. I will just read the first part. So, from the position of let's take. I'm in a very. I'm a very good father. Of course I miss this a lot. I really wanted to be involved.

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I understand that I don't have this, and it will probably never have, and this honestly falls heartbreaking at times from the pestic. If over Block, who got divorced, managed to keep good relations to his children's children regularly, and overall is not very bothered by all this business. Well, I probably have a very successful divorce.

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so if you talk honestly, if to look at all of this, opportunistically, I came off really well. Ultimately they institutionally and culturally embedded gender essentialism. It allowed men to keep their involvement lo without jeopardizing their identities as good parents, demonstrating it as they

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quote from the interview, is eager. Who said, Look formerly right. If you take what the law requires, she has to spend all the time as him, and I can only pay child support and not even show up.

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This is the law. This is how it works here. Obviously this is not the option for both of us.

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She accepts the situation as it is. She's happy. I find time for him. I find quite a lot of time for him, anyway, she had this day off when she can do whatever she wants.

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Okay, so I'm wrapping up.

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I try to demonstrate. There is this presentation that Russian fathers, experiences and interpretation of shared parenting

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are influenced by the ideology of gender difference with care being understood as mother's natural responsibility in father's involvement as assistant in this gender work.

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I also try to understand generalization of Russian fatherhood as a relational position of gender power when mothers hold socially and institutionally recognized and supported authority over childbearing at the basis of their caregiving. But fathers retain the privilege to stay involved, yet free from most of care work

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I in based on my research. The project of fatherhood, based on the commitment to Ecol care, emerges, but it does not bring a viable alternative to carefree, and but in a masculine it is

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fathers who did equal sharing, or were even resident parents were engaged in narrative work, producing the account of fathering that did not challenge the gendered identities of Modest as entitled Careers. Okay, that's all. Thank you very much.

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Thank you very much, Catalina. I'm sorry to to do that right, and we move to the next presentation that is called. It takes a village to rest. No, so gender equality and Javascript more and more validity. A critical examination of the division of child getting Hong Kong.

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the the National University of Hong Kong.

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Good morning, everyone. I'm Lucille. Thank you for the introduction.

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so

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my presentation, I guess you know you're taking from a Russian angle. So I'm taking from a Chinese angle, and I'm also bringing in the the dimension of class.

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But I'm looking at professional middle class families in Hong Kong. I

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sorry about this.

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So what I wanted to do in this research was to look at how farthering is

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done in families where no, you have couples who are educated couples who are professional. you're in a context in Hong Kong, where it is an international city. You've got Western influence. So I wanted to know that you know what what happens in in a context like that, because you would, as studies have shown that no education is a very good predictor of

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caring fatherhood involved fatherhood fathers who are working in professional occupation have better work, autonomy And they have. They're more likely to be able to, you know. arrange their work so that they can be more involved in their children. Mothers and fathers who are well educated.

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generally have a more likely to have no more liberal values in particular. When you have been growing up or studying in countries where they hold more friendly family policies, they are more likely to hold egalitarian gender belief. So based on this, I thought, you know, I really wanted to understand what would happen in families where you are most likely

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to hold gender equal values, because you know, you have both do work due to income families who are who are professionals. Okay? And in Hong Kong.

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So

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I guess what we I I won't talk too much about this, because you know, we've got pre previous presenters who have already told us how important it is to have involved farthering, you know, for children, and how it is a you know a a sort of a a a preferred version nowadays, where not only men refers but women as well. to be involved. Fathers. Okay, so.

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But I guess I'll talk a little bit about that involved fatherhood.

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Okay, it's characterized by men's involvement in their children's life being emotionally engaged being active and involved. So it sort of reorders traditional gender relations, because that those kind of you know involvement used to be the mother's domain. But at the same time it is also

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assume that it is premise on egalitarian values. So if you are involved as an assumption that you know, if the father is very much involving the children's life. that no, it will. You know he's more likely to hold egalitarian values, because, you know, you are doing more of the work that is traditionally the mother's domain.

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So Why has there been that change? Well.

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a big part of it. It's due to women's changing status in society. More and more of them are engaged in the labor, in the labor force. So in the context of Hong Kong, we have seen an increase

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of labor participation of women. Even in the last 10 years, you know, there's been an increase in the past, but we're still seeing more women entering into the workplace. We're seeing that women are earning much more than they earned before. Okay, so women's Median income increase significantly, you know, in the last, you know.

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you know, a couple of decades.

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But nevertheless, no women are still earning a lot less than men. Okay, so it is highlighting something.

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So.

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in general, what we can see now looking into the literature, the general literature is that although we're seeing more men involved in their children's life. Now women still do more. and they do not. Men do not participate, you know, and do childcare, and

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in the same way as women do

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and you can be. Men can be caring, but

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it can coexist with more traditional modes of hegemonic behaviors. You know. Patriarchal values may still, you know exist

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it at the same time with, you know, fathers, you know, being involved

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in the context of Hong Kong.

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this is sort of more cultural context, you. They are influenced by the culture of Confucianism

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so similar to, you know the idea of separate fees. You've got women working within the fam supposed to know in the private more involved in the privacy men in the public. We on top of that, you know, with under confusionism. Is this idea of harmony, family harmony? So they see it more as a collective thing water than you know. 2 separate fees. They see it. No, they they did separate, they do have separate sweet, but they also see it as a collective.

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So parenting can be seen to be a collective, and it emphasizes confusion, values, emphasizes on interdependence our cooperations, you know, being complementary, working together as a whole, even though they're doing separate work. So

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I wanted to make this, because when I did my interview, I found that, you know confusion values. This kind of value is actually

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greatly affected the way men and women negotiated an equal, unequal division of labor in child care.

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So My study was based on in-depth interviews. I spoke to men and women couples. You know all together. There were around 15 families.

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and in these families all of the Parents had children, at least a child under the age of 8. Okay. Some had older, some had Many of them had, you know, just newborn, you know, toddlers, those kind of age in these families. most of them were due income earnest. They were professionals, men.

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fathers were professionals, mothers were professional, all of them had undergraduate degrees, and most of them had postgraduate degrees.

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I had on each end, you know, to look at one with a stay at home, father, one at a stay, stay at home, mothers, but all of them in between were due income families.

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professionals, and the So and the median and the in income basically was, you know, in the in the upper end. compared to Hong Kong's Median's income.

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So what did I found? I found that. Well, fathers said that

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they were involved, they said, and I did everything. No changed the nappies. I took the kids to school. you know I would. Do. You know, I would bath the children. Okay, And they believed that not being and a a good father, you know, involved all of those things.

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so

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I talked to the mothers and work as well, and I asked them no, just to check if they were really doing those things. And so it was confirmed by the mothers that they were, you know, involved, and they were

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you know, being involved. So I I think a good example. Here is Cherry, who was talking about her husband and saying how involved he was. So the children started to learn piano The father did not know how to play the piano, and the father decided that I need to also learn piano so that I can be involved in my children's learning so I can, you know, engage with them. It's this level of, you know, involvement.

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I won't read all the quotes, but I just wanted you to have a sense of, you know

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the involvement. I talked to

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the mothers, and then the I asked the mothers what they thought is important in terms of being a good father, and they said, You know similar things. You know, fathers have to be emotionally engaged. You have to give time. But what was also important. If you look at these 2 codes that I've given is that

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they, for example, N says that. Okay, you have to know, spend time, communicate with the daughter.

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not just provide material needs. Okay, but other things. So material needs is actually a basis. Okay, you not just that. But you need, you need to be involved. So that's an indication that you know.

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at least. No, you know that that was already part of you know what fathering was involved. There's Cherry, who was a director of an International bank. and then she says that oh, it's not just all about making money, but it's about something else again. Okay. So I just wanted to put this because we'll talk about that later on.

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But what we can see is that Both men and women feel that. You know they are different from their previous generation, so no longer is the father the head of the house, and makes all the decisions. Mothers are also involved in decision making

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although they might.

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They may say that okay. for example, cows, as I think the Father row is the head of the family, but the mother also have a lot of influences the father makes's decision, but those decisions includes the mother's opinion.

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you've got others saying that, you know I consider him the head of the house, but he's not very dominant, and we have discussions on many things. You know. We'll make a decision to get that. He's not you know he respects my decision. So it's different from the previous generation in that, you know they are involved there. They feel that you know they are part of this, you know. They. They're part of making.

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not both men and women feel that, you know it's different. But and women are involved

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and decision making.

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Okay, so what has facilitated this change

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in father's involvement in their children's life?

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One of the key things that I found was the wife's expectation.

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Okay, so there's an expectation of wives for fathers to behave in a particular way. So, for example, if the father was supposed to be taking care of the child. The child could be And he was playing on the phone. The mother would say, Hey, you know. Can you put your phone down. You can do your work later, so that those kind of encouragement

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an expectation. We were talking with professional fathers. They were able to adjust their work. So, for example, people would work closer to their home. They would.

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you know. you know, say work only on a Monday and take, you know, take Mondays off and work for the rest of the 4 days because of their status in the company and the status in their profession.

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In Hong Kong there was a context. Most of the families had lived in domestic helpers and domestic kelpers helped a lot with the care well, mundane household chores. So it left mothers and fathers more time to look after the child, which they thought was more important than household work.

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So is it more involved farthering. What we find is that actually, fathers still very

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hold what still find male bread winning very important to their identity?

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And

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actually, women still do a lot more household chores and childcare even though they have domestic helpers, they don't have as much flexibility.

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and there is an emphasis. Still know by men about their achievement, success in the work.

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But sorry I'm rushing food because I have no time.

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But how are they, you know, negotiating this, an equal division of labor?

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Well, basically, they are saying that, you know, this is complementary difference. Okay, we do different things. Men that's bigger things, women, the smaller things. But we compliment each others, and this we found that no, it is no express, my men, and also expressed by children. My My wife, do things that can be quantified like doing homework and preparing meals. But I do things like, you know, things that cannot be quantified. I cultivate the manners I teach them people's skills. This is said by men.

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So in conclusion, we find that yes, there has been changes. Men are more involved.

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and that this has been facilitated by the You know the status in terms of the work, you know, and the economic privilege, they're able to have more flexibility and make arrangements, and so on. Their involvement has also been impacted by their wife's encouragement or expectation.

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and, more importantly. in the context of Hong Kong. Foreign domestic helpers live in domestic, alphas! Have affected how? they, the the the division of labor, is done between fathers and mothers.

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But

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are we seeing more gender equality? Well.

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fathers who are child oriented are not necessarily gender equal and fathers and mothers, we find that still see male bred with male breadwinning, and then leadership as

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important. Okay, not only fathers, but also mothers. and there is a tendency to you think that the work done by fathers are more important, and you know, have longer term impact on the children.

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And when this type of an equal division of labor. persist. Now, how do they negotiate it? They have this idea of complementary difference, the ideology of big picture smaller things but it helps them to sort of minimize the tension with between the couple, because they see it as cooperative behavior. They see it as a collective goal, because for fathers and mothers the main goal is for family harmony for the children's development.

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So my conclusion is that in Hong Kong professional Middle class family is a joint family enterprise, but it is far from gender equal.

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Thank you.

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The

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know how to do it.

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 Stop sharing. Thank you.

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Casey Scheibling: Perfect.

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And now, Joan Jones, you can. Can you say your your screen?

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The next presentation is called Children Experiences in South Korea? Preliminary findings.

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Youngcho Lee: Can you hit us? You want to?

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We cannot see you now.

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Youngcho Lee: that's great. That's great.

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Would you like to share a person, a Powerpoint, or something? So your screen or not.

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Youngcho Lee: I'm trying to share my screen.

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Youngcho Lee:  so I think the current setting doesn't allow me to share my screen.

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Youngcho Lee: should I?

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I don't know. I will try to give you access, but I don't know how to do it.

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If anyone you know how to do.

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I

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Petteri Eerola JYU: fed row. They? Pro? I think I can do it.

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Petteri Eerola JYU: Yeah.

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Petteri Eerola JYU: no, actually, I can't. Actually I can't. I'm so sorry. Maybe petrol

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Petteri Eerola JYU: should you?

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Petteri Eerola JYU: open young shows presentation from that computer. So I, yeah, yeah. So then you just have to. then the problem is that I

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of I don't know how to do it. maybe

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I don't know.

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Let me check the settings Petro. I I just message to my presentation on Zoom.

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Youngcho Lee: So if it's possible to open it from your side

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or it

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the

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anyone who knows

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sure.

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Henna Pirskanen: I think if you click on to participants list and and we're into participants list opens. If you click

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Henna Pirskanen:  from the name

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you should see it here. Huh!

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Participants part DC, by, and maybe just click on the

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here. Maybe I am, she

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chat. We know

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Henna Pirskanen: they should be like these 3 dots. We have a problem of time. That's the that's that's a Pt. Maybe we can follow with the in-person presentation, and in the meantime someone else can ask to edit a Thank you, Mark.

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and how to do it. So if you don't mind. We go to the next in person presentation. That is, yeah. that is Mengiao. who from the University of Salamanca, reconstruction of father, who, in a strange land, exploding father in practices of Chinese people and in Spain. Sorry, John Joe. we will get back to you.

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 What is it? Where is the share screen.

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Okay. good morning. Everyone. Thanks for coming for this session, and thanks for the presentation. My name is Mongol. I'm a Phd. Students at at University of Salamanca, in Spain, and today we are going to present the preliminary findings of our

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of our study about some fatherhood of Chinese immigrants in Spain, and I really appreciate the previous presenter of us as a contact of the middle class

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Chinese families, and I think our study can complement in the migration context as first. I would like to.

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So how can I move the

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okay?

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So first, I would like to briefly present the Chinese migration to Spain.

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Since 1980 S. There has been a growing number of Chinese migration to Spain and due to the economic reasons. And until until 2,019. Spain has become the second largest European country for a Chinese community, and at the meantime Chinese community has become the largest Asian community in Spain.

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however, compared with their Chinese counterparts in New World countries, such as United States or Canada, who mostly skills, professionals, or international students, Chinese. But Chinese immigrants in Spain show a relatively lower level of head education as well as disadvantaged the socio-economic positions, and most of them came from rural areas of China. And

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They also engaged in low-schooled jobs in in, in co- ethnic businesses. So here I think we should pay attention that the co-economic employers also use social networks to recruit the cheap labor force by paying their trip from China to Spain and also help them with the legalization procedure.

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But so, therefore, in the initial resettlement process. Chinese immigrants normally are engaged in low wage, or sometimes even unpaid jobs, to pay off their migration depths.

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and normally they are also faced with precarious and legal status, as well as limited hosting space, by sharing the same flies or same R with their co- regionals.

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and also Chinese people's migration to Spain, show our prevalent family migration patents, which means once a new commerce established their own family business and the require and achieved. Their economic autonomy! They will bring their families back to to Spain.

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especially their wives and children, and and we should also pay special attention to the active Female Labor Force participation of Chinese immigrants and mothers in Spain, as they normally immediately engage in their family business soon after. Soon after they' a rival in Spain to contribute to the family income.

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So by this graphic we can see the rapid increase of Chinese community in the following to that case.

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okay?

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And which has already gained a special attention in academics.

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Yeah.

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I,

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yeah.

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I, yes, okay.

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thank you.

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Yeah.

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Okay, so so our previous study have also shows about this. Yeah. I would say again, yeah. So as I have noted before, because of their labor force participation, especially marine's mothers. So the limited economic resource, the active labor force, participation, the irregular labor working hours, can always constrain Chinese families. Childcare.

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So in this study, which has been published in journal of ethnic and migration studies. We talked about the cultural family as well as economic factors that can constrain Chinese migraines.

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childcare decision, and the most important, most importantly due to the limitations of their economic resource. Some of them choose to send their newborn children back to China for grandparents, child care, or some some of them choose to bring grandparents back to Spain for intensive child care, and some of them always take care of their children in the family business. So this is the context of the

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Chinese migration in Spain, and it is always related to their childcare practice, as we will emphasize in the later stage.

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So now, turning back to Chinese fatherhoods and immigrants, feathering, as the previous presenter has already noted, based on gender values and the regions Chinese father show relatively low involvement in family, in family care, and especially among the low educational level. Parents.

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However, in migration context, the traditional gender division of labor in childcare may be challenged, and the studies on migraine fathers and feathering experience in Latino or African countries had already existing, and as well as the middle class Chinese families in New In new countries.

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however, we still lack studies of the Chinese immigrants, furthering experience in European countries, especially among Chinese immigrants with relatively disadvantaged socio-economic positions.

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Therefore we, our study, comes from a larger as a

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as no graphic projects on family life and childcare among Chinese immigrants in Spain during the year 2,020 to 2,022, by doing more than 80 interviews in the 3 largest districts for Chinese immigrants in Spain. There are Usera in Madrid, air folk pink in Barcelona and La Rogita in Valencia.

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but for this study we will only focus on 25 semi-structured interviews and a few observations with Chinese parents, and most of most of them are fathers, and we also draw on 5 interviews with migrants, mothers to compliments, the narratives

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who have at least one child below 3 years old.

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And for this project we have, 4 parts of questions regarding their immigration, history, employment. kinship networks as well as child care arrangements. But for this study we will only focus on the child care parts

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and due to the time limits, I will just quickly focus on one snapshot of the case of Chen, who is father of 3 children and the self-employed. From his case we can show that there Despite the existing traditional, gender-based child care division among Chinese families, there is increased parental involvement in childcare. Among Chinese immigrants in Spain.

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mit Ctl, and due to the lack of kingship, supports migrants, mothers, labor force, participation as well as an enhanced family solidarity. For example, in the case of Chen when commented about the Limited kinship support in Spain, he commented. In China my parents will definitely help me raise the care of children. However, here no one can help us. 250

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so And sometimes, they commented. They are like Struggling alone, and only Chen himself and his wife, so due to the limited Kinship supports in immigrants, contexts. migrants, fathers, and have to should. There is a childcare

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row as well, and So the second part is. The mother's labor. First participation, as I have commented. Most the immigrants. Chinese immigrants in Spain had to previously pay of their migration debts. So The economic burden is important parts for their child care practice.

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So when I ask why? Why? Why? Your wife cannot stay at home for just the taking of care of children? And and he commented, because their primary task is to pay off the depths. So both of them have to work

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and As the practice of chen is to take ships. take shifts with his wife for both the work and the childcare. For example, at noon time will get children back from school and take children back home, and the his wife will stay with their home, with their family business. And then, Can we make her shifts

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with his wife and let her go back home, have the line, she, and then have a rest, and into 10 pm. as as knights. So this a very important practice for Chinese immigrants in Spain how to balance their child care and and the family business. With this contacts immigrants, immigrants, fathers have to shoulder more responsibilities in this process.

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So to conclude, yes, I have commented before, even though there still exists as a gender-based child care division in Chinese families, but in the context of migraines Chinese fathers have show Increased the parental involvement in child care due to the 3 factors. And

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We hope that our study can also call more attention from the perspective of policy. Implementation in the provision of family, friendly policies! For immigrants, families, and in the host of country. So thanks for your listening.

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thank you for your presentation. And now we are going to finish with with the in-person presentation, and they will try with the online.

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Cassi. You will be what

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the next presentation will be. Men care work inside from cor resid and fathers in Dualinco House, called in the Western Cape by Nasima Isaacs from the Human Residential Research Council, South Africa. So

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the for us.

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Thank you. Good morning. Everyone. My name is Najima, is it? And I would like to thank the organizers for the session and also for the previous presentations.

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So my topic is on main and K work insights from fathers into income households in Typetown. I am a Ph. D. Candidate at Stalinwash University, and I'm currently working as a researcher at the human sciences reasons council.

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So a bit of background within a nuclear family, men and women perfectly occupied of, and roles. Traditionally, men were seen as the breadwinners, financial providers.

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and women were seen as taking on those house optimistic duties. but with different types of masculinities. You we have seen that is youromadic masculinities, places men, we engaging care work in subordinate position, saying that that is the role and the behavior of women.

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However, as time progressed, the 1,970 sort of revealed the emerging of a nurture, and father of father is involved in the children's life.

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And However. thus, even though men became involved in the children's life

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they did not take up as much responsibilities as the woman, and this is similar to the South African context. So pre 1,994 men were involved in the migrant labor system. So they were removed from their home, and they spend less time with their children.

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and also given the aparted laws men who are sort of the brain winners and earning the loving to provide for the families and women take up the child care responsibilities.

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So the establishment of the Apart that capitalism created the gender division of K. Women who are least involved in childcare and women more involved in this unpaid

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The responsibilities, however, as time through grace, more women are entering the labor market and or getting jobs, earning money which resulted into them, also becoming grade witness within the South African context and taking up that role. And this resulted in my interest in looking at Geo-income families.

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So, given the South African context, we know that it's very complex. There are 4 population groups.

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and these population groups consist of Black White College, Asian Indians. And looking at these population groups, the statistic shows that within the nuclear family you would find more white. We are so in the extended houses for far more blacks and colours.

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and only 36% of children love for their biological fathers. Where 64% of children love with

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at the

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other, mean within, within the families, such as grandfathers, mothers, partners, uncles, brothers, and so

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so just some of the statistics that I've previously mentioned regarding codes and and fathers, both both biological mothers and fathers, and all codes have been with biological father.

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a mother and not biological father go resident with biological father, and not that mother. The statistics is very low for children living with the biological father as opposed to the mother as well as the population groups among the type of households amongst the population groups in South Africa.

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So the objectives of my study is to explore how the division of K is negotiated into your income. Households also to explore the perspectives of both men and women, on how main, construct and perform day within the daily lives of these your income families.

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So my theoretical framework that I will be using is the K diamond by the zombie, which says that K. Is architectured through these 4, welfare sickness. So what I'm hoping to do is to evaluate this K. Diamond in the South African context and to develop one that reflects those context within the different population groups.

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So the context I'm looking at the is the city of Kip time, which is the second largest popular second largest city in South Africa. I'm also using a dyke center that has multiple branches that reflects the different population groups.

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I'm looking at both men and women who have one or more children over the age of 18,

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because we know that the image pigments is also very high within South Africa, and I'm inclusive of all racial categories. Since the class's profile of this day case centers are so diverse.

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I will be conducting semi-statured interviews.

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With 20 participants as well as observing 5 households within the different areas in the city of Cape Town, and then I will be doing thematic analysis with the transcripts as well as the observation notes.

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So, in conclusion, much attention was directed to fathers and fathering over the past 2030 years.

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and the latitia reveals that for there's been significant changes in Furtherwood more fathers are becoming involved within a different context, as previously. In this, also mentioned in a different context. However, I want to look at how co- is it? And fathers? But in a complex society like South Africa, construct and perform care was in your income household for children living with them.

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and these are my references. Thank you so much for listening.

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Well, now, we are going to try with

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with the presentational, compromising care of masculinity, compromising care of masculinity. How can you and fathers negotiate competing gender space station for working family?

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And let me see.

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can you control it?

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Casey Scheibling: I think you just need to stop sharing the screen, and then I'll start. I don't see just up at the top. Go to few options.

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Can you try to say, Cassie?

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The okay?

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Casey Scheibling: And everyone sees presentation.

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Yeah, it's perfect. Thank you. The floors is yours. You have between 10 and 50 min.

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Casey Scheibling: All right. Everyone my name is Casey, shibbling, and I'm post doctoral fellow in sociology at the University of Toronto, and before getting started I just want to thank the Isa and the organizers of this session for accommodating virtual presentations like mine, and I will jump right into this. to, for start with providing a little bit of a background that sets the stage for my research. about this qualitative study of gendered conflicts and compromises for Canadian fathers today.

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Casey Scheibling: So the main thing that I want to emphasize is that the contemporary culture of fatherhood in North America is shaped by contradictions related to gender.

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Casey Scheibling: On the one hand, dominant configurations of masculinity continue to implore boys and men to be strong, aggressive, emotional rocks and competitive workers.

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Casey Scheibling: Research has found that when fathers adhere to these traditional norms of masculinity strongly, they tend to be less involved with their children overall, and especially in nurturing and expressive parenting behaviors

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Casey Scheibling: beyond cultural pressures around manning up are also structural factors like the gender pay gap that can push new parents into traditional gender events of work and family roles, whether or not they intended to first place.

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Casey Scheibling: On the other hand, we've become increasingly aware of the harmful effects of trying to man up in this way alongside some recent challenges to toxic masculinities. There have been complementary pushes that urge men to be more sensitive, caring and in touch with their emotions.

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Casey Scheibling: Fatherhood, in particular, is considered a major role identity transition that enable men to adopt more caring masculinities through nurturing their children, developing new emotional awareness and becoming more interdependent

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Casey Scheibling: as an outcome of these changes coupled with women's increased involvement in the labor force. We've seen a growth of gender egalitarian attitudes among younger cohorts. Indeed, couples who are becoming parents today often desire an equal division of work and family responsibilities, and recognize the potentially hazardous nature of rigid gender roles

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Casey Scheibling: so supporting involved fathering, then, is seemed to hinge, at least in part on shifting expectations about masculinity. Unfortunately, this shift hasn't been fully realized. Men who become parents today make question whether or how they're able to act upon new caring ideals, and they received a much different gender socialization for much of their lives.

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Casey Scheibling: or fathers may try to balance older general norms, like being the family provider and protector with newer motivations to be an engaged parent.

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Casey Scheibling: This results in what's called a hybridization of fatherhood, that at its core I would argue, is based on conflicting gender expectations, and may not result in more equal domestic roles.

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Casey Scheibling: Critics have noted that hybrid masculinities may represent more of a change in style than in substance, or, in other words, more of a personal identity, revision, and a profound reworking of role behaviors. And this is what we interrogate through interviews with new fathers in Canada.

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Casey Scheibling: In this study we asked the following 3 questions, how do fathers of young children negotiate gender expectations as they relate to identities versus roles.

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Casey Scheibling: To what extent, and in what ways do father's gender and identities and roles align or conflict? And how do fathers account for contradictions between their gender identities and gender role performances.

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Casey Scheibling: To find answers to these questions we interviewed 36 Canadian fathers living with children, 13 and young them. The majority of these men were middle class and married, but there was some variation in their ethnicity and their earner arrangement in terms of whether they were a primary earner, the so secondary earner and their family.

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Casey Scheibling: We took a critical, symbolic interactionist approach to interviewing whereby participants were encouraged to articulate life stories and fathering visions.

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Casey Scheibling: Then we perform flexible coding to construct index codes based on social demographics, followed by analytical codes based on sensitizing concepts around gender masculinity work, fathering and identity.

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Casey Scheibling: What this analysis led us to discover was that fathers have different and oftentimes conflicting perceptions of masculinity on the one hand, and gender roles on the other.

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Casey Scheibling: as such we've conceptualized simultaneous gender identity, expansion, and gender role constriction that fatherhood affords

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Casey Scheibling: the deal with this conflict and bridge the ideological gap in their in their attitudes of gender fathers express what we call role identity compromises. It is these 3 mechanisms that I'll now illustrate through our findings

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Casey Scheibling: it was clear that for most of these fathers the transition to parenthood was a welcomed conduit for them to revise and expand upon their subjective gender identity as men

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Casey Scheibling: during existing research. Father's talking about how, having a child facilitated them, to get in touch with their feminine side, to learn how to express love and warmth, and in turn, find the good in masculinity that they want to pass on to their children.

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Casey Scheibling: To that end many are many articulated clear motivations, to provide their children with a more flexible gender Socialist socialization than they had received, and also to detoxify masculinity as a way to role model healthy practices to their children.

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Casey Scheibling: to illustrate how this expansion would link to parenthood. We first have Oliver, who admits.

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Casey Scheibling: perhaps, that fear of engaging in something that could be sent to mentality, or, you know just joy or love, or any of these things that are positive and good. I may have resisted that before parenthood, for fear that they would be overly sentimental.

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Casey Scheibling: But now there's something about that immediacy and presence with my son that you're able to get past that.

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Casey Scheibling: Then we have Paul, who describes the revision of masculinity even explicitly, and notes how it contrasts with how he learnt about what it means to man.

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Casey Scheibling: It's a more positive masculinity has been something I had always wanted to access my son. Then, when my kids were born and they're both boys, it's like it's more important to me than it was before.

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Casey Scheibling: Likewise Aaron connects his gender identity, expansion to his child. Socialization goals, he explains. I want my son to demonstrate patience, vulnerability, feeling, expressing emotions and fear exploring his sexuality and gender. However, those emerge. You know all the things that I wasn't allowed to do

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Casey Scheibling: so. Despite these positive shifts towards masculinities, most of the same men admitted gender role constriction that's also associated with father.

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Casey Scheibling: The early months of parenthood, when breastfeeding is so fundamental to childcare, was often considered the most stressful period, for how isolated and helpless fathers felt!

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Casey Scheibling: Many explain that being a provider seemed like the only way that they could parent, even if they prefer to work less and be at home more.

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Casey Scheibling: This pressure is compounded by the male breadwinner ideal, all constituted a lingering source of anxiety for men who had limited flexible movements anyway.

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Casey Scheibling: Hence a combination of biological, cultural and practical factors constricted. But there's to be some conventional roles even while expanding on masculinity flu identity work.

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Casey Scheibling: Recalling his transition to parenthood. Her expresses how the initial division of labor seemed like somewhat of a betrayal egalitarian vision.

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Casey Scheibling: he explains through pregnancy labor in the first couple of months

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Casey Scheibling: can't be equal, and this notion of supporting one's wife to me has cultural connotations from the 19 fifties. So how do you support your wife in a way that provides mental support, mental space, physical support, and even physical space.

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Casey Scheibling: In a similar way Gabriel reflects on the loneliness and frustration of having to work throughout the pandemic. When he had a newborn son at home, he states, sometimes I feel devalued, that the best I could do to be a good dad is to bring home. And so I'm like, Okay, I'll bring in the money. I'll work really hard, because that's something I can contribute, but it feels in a weird way pretty shallow.

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Casey Scheibling: providing a slightly different explanation is Jason, who notes the convenience falling into traditional roles in speed. Your strengths and interest do come from the gender.

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Casey Scheibling: Part of it is like life is so hectic. What's easiest. It's honestly, sometimes just easier to do. Cooking is a big one for me. I try to do more, but I'm just slower, and it takes longer than if my wife were to do it.

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Casey Scheibling: Jason's quote also begins to see the types of gendered compromises that fathers and their partners make on a regular basis. These compromises are not only interactional, but also a way that fathers can reconcile their gender identity, expansion, and their gender role constriction so as to reduce.

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Casey Scheibling: We find that they do this in 2 key ways with the first, being providing the gendered explanation that attribute differences not to gender per se, but to personal abilities.

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Casey Scheibling: The second way is by comparing their parental involvement to fathers in the past in order to clarify a greater commitment and thus align their role performance with their gender ideology.

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Casey Scheibling: or, in other words. This is to emphasize that they are acting on caring ideals to the extent that they are more caring than other phones. An illustrative example of what Alison damage or calls it. The gendered explanation comes from Jerry, who is talking about how he explains what he and his wife do around the house to children.

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Casey Scheibling: He says to me, I tell them that a lot of the differences in what mommy and daddy do are based on our personalities and preferences. Instead of mommy being a woman and Daddy being a man, and I think we're stronger for it, because there are things that I loathe doing that she loves doing, and vice versa.

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Casey Scheibling: providing a comparative appraisal to the older generation is Henry, who admits I'll be quite honest. I think I'm quite jealous of the men who preceded me in the sense that well, I don't envy how their wives must have felt about them, but I certainly envy how easy their lives were, how much personal time they had, and how little was expected of them.

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Casey Scheibling: Finally, Angus provides a more personal comparison to his own father as a way to shore up his caring role and his motivation to be a better Dad.

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Casey Scheibling: you recalls, I remember getting whipped with a belt, and my father had golf clubs broken over his back as again. So I don't want that to continue through to my children. That's why I'm the one who hugs them more. I'm the one in the morning who they'll jump aside on the couch and cuddle up with me while they watch cartoons.

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Casey Scheibling: So what can we take away from all of this one key consideration pertains to how distancing oneself from a traditional gender identity not necessarily entail taking on a more involved parental role.

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Casey Scheibling: Most of these fathers would describe themselves as caring involved and even pro feminist men who grew up, not identifying with traditional masculinity, and yet many find themselves in divisions of labor where they are the primary earner and secondary care.

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Casey Scheibling: This is compelling because symbolic interaction is theory suggests that we try to align our cognitive self identity with our social role performances. But in this case we find somewhat of a divide.

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Casey Scheibling: Fathers felt the need to provide accounts by making appeals to personal interests, marital compromises and other forms of degenerate explanation.

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Casey Scheibling: We argue overall that these compromising accounts serve the hybridized fatherhood and masculinity at the micro level of identity construction and at the interactional level of role negotiation in family context. We interpret this as further evidence that hybrid and caring masculinities may constitute more of a change in culture than in conduct.

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Casey Scheibling: So, to conclude, what can we do to help foster this expansion and minimize this constriction.

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Casey Scheibling: it remains important to continue calling out toxic behaviors and other forms of gender inequality that play out in the public sphere. The fathers from this study clearly recognize the health costs of masculinity and certain steps that can be taken to encourage healthy relationships and behaviors among boys and men.

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Casey Scheibling: One of these steps is to further destigmatize male nurturance and emotionality in many societies across the globe.

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Casey Scheibling: In addition, new fathers can benefit from more tailored parenting, vice and informal support networks by augmenting men's parenting skills and reducing fears around care work we can help to encourage and normalize, involve fatherhood

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Casey Scheibling: last, but certainly not at any point. Countries still have quite limited resources for parental leave, and flexible work, which is a central constriction for new parents. Even in a place like Canada, where there are some options to support, fathers leave

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Casey Scheibling: both public and private policies can be much more accessible to a greater variety of parents. Thanks so much for listening to me.

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Thank you very much, Casey. And now we are going to try the last presentation, we'll try it again.

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Joan, can you try to share your screen. Now again.  no, it doesn't work. Okay.

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I would try with him

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now. I cannot find it in the chat. Can you send it to me again?

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I don't see your I don't see your your presentation, your

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Youngcho Lee: by the chat.

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I don't see it. I don't say sorry, don't you?

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Confex Tech Support Sarah (she/her): When you try sharing your screen again, you might be able to. Now, as long as the podium is not sharing.

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Youngcho Lee: No, I can't.

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If

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Confex Tech Support Sarah (she/her): do you have a a button that says more on the bottom of your screen?

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Youngcho Lee: so I can click screen share. But it doesn't show my presentation.

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Youngcho Lee: Do you have the file open?

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Youngcho Lee: I and I have shared my screen multiple times. It's my first time experiencing an issue.

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Confex Tech Support Sarah (she/her): I yeah, I haven't heard of that, either. and it's not sending in the chat.

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Youngcho Lee: I I did send it to. Yeah, I I actually I saw it in my in my laptop, but not in here.

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Youngcho Lee: and not able to to see it in this laptop.

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Youngcho Lee: Okay, I'll I'll try to send again to everyone and

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Youngcho Lee: yeah.

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yeah, yeah.

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Petteri Eerola JYU: Yeah. Maybe you need to send it to every. Yes, no, I think I can see it now in the chat. So it should be that so you want me to share it up, should you? I I will try to opening here in this laptop. I'll go you. That should be fine. Yeah, but yeah.

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Petteri Eerola JYU: sounds good.

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So down to you will have only only 10 min.

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because I would like to have some time for the questions.

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no.

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Petteri Eerola JYU: and I actually think that we should have more time for the questions after in in the end of the second session, because in in that one I think we only have a 5 presentation. So

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Petteri Eerola JYU: if we don't have enough time for the for the Q. A. Now we should have

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Petteri Eerola JYU: what time then? Yeah, but I I will try to respect the the the timetable

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Do you know how to share it like a full full screen? I don't see the button, you see.

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 so

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thank you.

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Can you control it, don't you? And you control the

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the slights or not?

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No, I can't. Yes, just let me know, and I will. I will do it for you.

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you guys that

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Confex Tech Support Sarah (she/her): to share their screen.

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Youngcho Lee: Sorry you need to. You need to share the presentation from your site

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Petteri Eerola JYU: because we don't see the slides. Now.

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Youngcho Lee: maybe pitry if you can.

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Petteri Eerola JYU: Yeah, no, no, I see the slides. Thank you.

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Youngcho Lee: yeah. Sorry. Everyone for the delay. I don't know what this. Technically, she was unlike what the program says. I'm actually going to share a different research in progress. and the title is Children's Experiences of weather care in South Korea. Preliminary findings, reflections. I'm Yum Cho, based at Lsc department of social policy. Can we move to the next slide, please?

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Youngcho Lee: so very briefly on the background. We all know that there has been a rapid extension of qualitative research on carving care, giving fathers in the past decade. But While there have been some research that includes mothers perceptions about father's care based on couple of interviews.

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Youngcho Lee: there's actually a quite big gap in our knowledge about how children experience and perceive care from their fathers, especially in relation to the father's uptake of parent to leave. And what happens after that. next slide, please.

440
01:25:06.360 --> 01:25:11.840
Youngcho Lee: I draw on a understanding of care that is relational.

441
01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:36.840
Youngcho Lee: So care is perceived, not from just one person, but from the network of people and social relations that is involved and specifically drying on John Toronto's understanding of the different phases of care, and specifically the fourth phase which involves care receiving here. I am trying on this idea, where the the totality of care includes not just the perception

442
01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:54.959
Youngcho Lee: and experience of people that are providing care, but also those who are receiving care. And this is based on an assumption of a care, receivers as not passive, passive individuals, but people that are actively responding to and engaging with the full process of caregiving. Next slide, please.

443
01:25:56.060 --> 01:26:17.870
Youngcho Lee: And the to explore this, I'm specifically drawing on data with children to understand how children understand and experience fathers care, and how this influences their views about gender roles around the division of paid and unpaid labor between their mother and father. and this is

444
01:26:17.870 --> 01:26:32.239
Youngcho Lee: based on data that I'm currently collecting in South Korea. So I'm Jo conducting in-depth interviews with Dual and her parents and their children, and this is inclusive back of families with leave, taking fathers as well as families, with non

445
01:26:32.240 --> 01:26:57.150
Youngcho Lee: leave, taking fathers and it includes fathers who are still actively involved in caregiving also others who are playing a more per free role in caregiving so quite diverse range of families. And because I'm still in quite early phases of my field work, I have only conducted 6 interviews with children. But at the end of the field work I expect to conduct at least around 15 interviews.

446
01:26:57.150 --> 01:27:09.399
Youngcho Lee: So I'm going to only be sharing some very preliminary themes and reflections, although I don't think I'll I will have that much time for reflections. and I actually want to use this as an opportunity to receive advice

447
01:27:09.470 --> 01:27:20.769
Youngcho Lee: and suggestions going forward, because, this was my first time doing interviews with young children, and it has proved to be quite challenging next slide, please.

448
01:27:23.350 --> 01:27:45.780
Youngcho Lee: Briefly, on the South Korean context, parents are legally entitled to one year of moderately paid parent to leave per child until the child is 8 year 8 years old, and public sector employees are able to take up to 3 years of leave, and the latter 2 years are unpaid. there have been po policies in place to incentivize fathers of take apparently since 2,014.

449
01:27:45.780 --> 01:27:58.540
Youngcho Lee: But father's uptake rate is still low around 4%. What's quite interesting is that fathers and mothers both tend to take quite long leave, so fathers tend to take around 6 months leave on average

450
01:27:58.540 --> 01:28:26.670
Youngcho Lee: 10 month in the case of mothers and father's leave is quite evenly distributed for different age groups of children, whereas it's more common for mothers to take leave when their child is very young. I think it's also worth mentioning that South Korean people work among the longest hours in the Ocd. Especially among high income countries, and Korea also has one of the most unequal gender division of unpaid labor within Ocd along with Japan.

451
01:28:27.080 --> 01:28:28.410
Youngcho Lee: Next slide, please.

452
01:28:29.610 --> 01:28:52.769
Youngcho Lee: so I am actually conducting, not just interviews, but also a modified household portrait activity, trying on what Andrea to set has done previously with each parent around with with around 90 min of interviews with children. I'm conducting a in shorter interviews and a simplified household portrait activity which but with younger children

453
01:28:52.770 --> 01:29:02.500
Youngcho Lee: mit

454
01:29:02.500 --> 01:29:18.770
Youngcho Lee: the children's daily activities? Who are companies to child when doing those activities, and how the said experience with Mom. And that differs the child's thoughts about gender roles relating to the division of labor and experiences of care and love from parents. Next slide, please.

455
01:29:20.250 --> 01:29:33.060
Youngcho Lee: This is just an example of the modified household portrait. Activity that, we on the left is the ones that I conduct with the parents on the right. A more simplified version with the children next slide, please.

456
01:29:34.360 --> 01:29:56.369
Youngcho Lee: For this presentation I am only trying on In 6 interviews collected from 4 households and specifically more, focusing on the interview to 2 children, 7 or older So it's quite a limited sample that I'm trying on. But I hope to, you know. Compliment it going forward next slide, please.

457
01:29:57.520 --> 01:30:22.050
Youngcho Lee: So some very preliminary findings. What I'm showing here is a interview with a 9 year old boy whose father took one year of leave, and mother took 3 years of leave and quit work for one year for 2 children Both parents had quite similar income, and but the father is a school teacher, and the mother is a nurse. So the father was home much more than the mother and

458
01:30:22.160 --> 01:30:42.059
Youngcho Lee: they had a quite complementary dynamic, and that the mother was doing much more of the housework. But the father was contributing much more to childcare in general. And with this child he tells us that He tends to read books more with Dad rather than his mom, and also his dad helps much more with the homework

459
01:30:42.060 --> 01:31:05.409
Youngcho Lee: and also when he goes to the playground or park, it's typically his dad that accompanies him because the mother is too busy. she's at the hospital. So she comes home late, and she's not home around that much, but that is around much more so from this interview. what was quite prominent was themes around play centered Father care

460
01:31:05.410 --> 01:31:28.310
Youngcho Lee: sort of father, engaging more with developmental activities or place-centered activities rather than the kind of routine or physical activities that you would typically associate with mothers roles, and also the importance of parental time and availability of childcare, because the mother is simply not home that much. The children go to the father much more.

461
01:31:28.310 --> 01:31:35.679
Youngcho Lee: and expect the father to be their primary caregiver, and in this sense that that is a place quite a

462
01:31:35.680 --> 01:31:45.519
Youngcho Lee: a complementary role in that, even without the presence of the mother that that is able to provide sufficient care for their children. next slide, please.

463
01:31:46.920 --> 01:32:00.210
Youngcho Lee: With this second child, who who was an 8 year old boy. The father did not take leave in this case, but the mother took quite a long leave of 4 to 5 years and the father earned much more than the mother.

464
01:32:00.210 --> 01:32:22.870
Youngcho Lee: and this was reflected in a division of household labor that was considerably gender for both the housework as well as child care, and it was quite interesting when we asked, who stop? Is it to earn money? The child says it's it's a that job, whereas the mom should be responsible for housework. And when we ask, how would you feel if your dad stayed home for 3 months.

465
01:32:22.870 --> 01:32:47.669
Youngcho Lee: The top thought that it would be very hard to get by financially, because the mother doesn't earn enough money because she works in a library and this was reflected in the child's kind of views about how he wants to demonstrate gender old in the future, because he wanted to be in charge of earning money after he got married in the future, whereas he believed that his wife should be the in charge of housework.

466
01:32:47.670 --> 01:33:02.590
Youngcho Lee: So here the child's understanding of the division of domestic labor was centered around economic rationale, and it was used to justify these gender dynamics, which he also kind of envisioned for himself. Next slide, please.

467
01:33:03.960 --> 01:33:22.309
Youngcho Lee: with this final quotes that I'll be sharing. It was with a 9 year old girl. The father and mother each took 5 3.5 years of leave for 2 children, so totaling actually 7 years of leave which is quite a long time, and also evenly distributed between the 2 parents.

468
01:33:22.310 --> 01:33:51.140
Youngcho Lee: they also had similar income, but the father worked away worked quite far away and was homeless because of the commuting time, and because of this the division of household labor was fairly gendered. After both parents leave was all finished. So this child talks and engages with the mother much more mainly because the father isn't home around that much. And even when the father is around home She engaged much warm with her with her mother.

469
01:33:51.140 --> 01:34:04.960
Youngcho Lee: mainly because the father would be, you know, just resting or on his phone, and she felt sorry to ask him to engage more in play with her because he looked too tired afterward. And She

470
01:34:04.960 --> 01:34:28.120
Youngcho Lee: thoughts that doing housework and working was both mother and father's common rules. But looking after the baby was the mother's role. And when we asked why, she said, because that that comes from late. So here again, parental time, availability and labor labor conditions was shaping engagement with father and gender, all expectations, even after in that intensive time together

471
01:34:28.120 --> 01:34:40.639
Youngcho Lee: during father's sleep, and couple level efforts and equality which goes to show the importance of working hours in shaping what happens after the parents leave next site, please.

472
01:34:41.610 --> 01:34:52.380
Youngcho Lee: So some general themes that emerged was number one. The tendency for fathers to be involved in play or developmental aspect of children care and second.

473
01:34:52.380 --> 01:35:14.160
Youngcho Lee: fathers did develop bonds and closeness with their children. After taking leave and experience and capacity to do most things, or almost all things that mothers do. But time availability was a major issue that mediated the impact of father's leave. After fathers returned to work, including their relationship and care in in engagement with children

474
01:35:14.240 --> 01:35:35.409
Youngcho Lee: and different couples, employed different strategies for the division of labor, and it was a articulated based on a mixture of gender and personality factor as well as of rationals around available availability of time and income disparities. so these were all relevant factors that both parents as well as children drew on next slide, please.

475
01:35:36.630 --> 01:36:00.600
Youngcho Lee: But there, there! I don't think I'll have time to go into this in detail, but there were a lot of challenges in doing interviews with children around their short term attention, span tendency to give very short answers, or I don't know, and these things were encouraged because children shouldn't be pressured into giving certain answers, but because we were conducting interviews with quite young children.

476
01:36:00.600 --> 01:36:11.749
Youngcho Lee: it was hard to kind of derive lengthy or detailed, or more specific responses from

477
01:36:11.750 --> 01:36:14.889
Youngcho Lee: the children next slide, please.

478
01:36:16.010 --> 01:36:44.329
Youngcho Lee: And I actually want. I wanted to receive some suggestions or advice from people, especially those have had experience conducting interviews with children, or but I think because of time issues, I'll have to wrap up. But please, I'm leaving my contact information here, so please get in touch with me. If you have any? if you want to hear more about my research, or if you have any suggestions, or if you want to like, collaborate for future research. thank you.

479
01:36:52.890 --> 01:36:59.110
Thank you, John. So for this very interesting and promising probably, that you are you are doing with children is quite

480
01:36:59.250 --> 01:37:12.479
different. Differentiated with the speeches of fathers that we have here here in this issue. I know the sessions. There are a little bit more desolate to to know that there is still those gender differences.

481
01:37:12.490 --> 01:37:23.930
And now it's time for questions. And if the presenter would you like to go to the table and hopefully we will have some question about your your interesting presentations.

482
01:37:30.100 --> 01:37:33.580
So we have 50 min

483
01:37:34.040 --> 01:37:43.139
for discussions and questions. and if any of you want to do some questions, I I I would really appreciate. If you go to the microphone

484
01:37:43.190 --> 01:37:48.680
for the, for the online people to to listen your your question.

485
01:37:49.100 --> 01:37:50.199
I just

486
01:37:51.140 --> 01:38:20.740
several questions at all. I'll start with one and see if anyone else wants to ask a question. so thank you all for very interesting presentations. I was wondering the research from Katya, is it right? so you yeah. You reflected on this sort of assistant role of Russian fathers, and I was wondering because you did say something about sort of the mental struggle that some fathers had with this position. But I was wondering if you could see any kind of resistance to this

487
01:38:20.840 --> 01:38:34.300
sort of more inferior role that these fathers had in the household, or because the image that you sketch was really quite more of like being used to it and going along with it, and I was wondering if you saw any kind of resistance.

488
01:38:36.990 --> 01:38:38.799
Yeah, please

489
01:38:40.480 --> 01:38:42.460
thank you for the question.

490
01:38:42.530 --> 01:38:55.969
 I think so. I think if we talk about assistance, and since the amount of care work it was quite different, as some others actually did

491
01:38:56.240 --> 01:38:58.699
quite a lot, and

492
01:38:59.150 --> 01:39:04.010
very close to the equal amount. But I think so.

493
01:39:04.030 --> 01:39:09.450
So. But it was also but assistant in terms of

494
01:39:09.670 --> 01:39:36.370
 How a position? Yes, so in I would say no, there was not much over this, so I think this kind of ideology quite strongly internalized and supported. and I was trying to to do that. Why so? Because it's quite different from the it to get. If you look at Western, and how it publicly reflected on and I think because it also

495
01:39:36.459 --> 01:39:46.409
provides kind of some grounds of a more privileged position. And so I guess, for so for fathers who kind of wants to

496
01:39:46.600 --> 01:40:05.260
of the separation to care less. it's quite a convenient situation but for those who want to stay involved or actually increase again they found themselves in a in a very challenging situation, and they have to manage carefully.

497
01:40:05.360 --> 01:40:06.920
Yes, in Noah.

498
01:40:07.030 --> 01:40:08.870
Simple answer, I would say, not.

499
01:40:09.860 --> 01:40:12.030
Okay. The

500
01:40:12.809 --> 01:40:17.310
I'm going to step aside. If there are any other questions I'll come back.

501
01:40:23.969 --> 01:40:34.290
Hi, I have a question for thank you for your presentation. They were all very interesting, and all had some very similar things. I had a question for

502
01:40:34.360 --> 01:40:44.610
manual, and yes, because you both sort of touch upon sort of the Chinese context of.

503
01:40:44.719 --> 01:41:01.590
And I think you both made mentions of like kinship relations in regards to sort of having a lack of kinship within the Spanish context. And I think I'm I'm just gonna assume that, like within the Hong Kong context as well. there was not much mention of the kinship relations

504
01:41:01.590 --> 01:41:14.960
in part of like raising children like to grandparents and such. And I was just wondering whether this sort of lack of kinship relations within Hong Kong and the Spanish context is similar. especially because

505
01:41:15.040 --> 01:41:25.809
I think in the Hong Kong context, a lot of these families had utilized domestic helpers, and I'm wondering whether that is sort of a replacement for the kingship relations that we don't see.

506
01:41:28.350 --> 01:41:34.190
Thank you for the question. I think you're right in Hong Kong. It's

507
01:41:34.299 --> 01:41:48.409
it's actually very common for middle-class families, upper middle class families, middle class families to employ domestic helpers to help with, especially with children to help with childcare domestic work.

508
01:41:48.500 --> 01:42:14.519
and so we find that for those families with domestic helpers generally, you know, they are, you know, basically the carrots while they are at work. for for most of my informants they did have within domestic, helpless, but for the few that didn't, they would have part time, and it would be supplemented by grandparents, who would, you know, come and

509
01:42:14.660 --> 01:42:24.189
you know, sometimes supervise or sometimes help out. But for those with domestic helpers. The job will be mainly done by

510
01:42:25.110 --> 01:42:29.180
the West to help us. But Our grandparents actually do come in, and

511
01:42:30.220 --> 01:42:39.809
not really what help out, but they don't really do the work they are there to usually just to sit around, supervise, observe in that way.

512
01:42:41.910 --> 01:43:00.899
So thank you for the question. I think this question in a migration context that will. It's very interesting, especially for Chinese immigrants, because Firstly, for Chinese families in general is, we have family solidarity. norms, where parents normally care for the grandchildren.

513
01:43:00.900 --> 01:43:25.360
But in migration context, so firstly, it's a economic topic, because from the a Chinese family in Spain have to personally survive from the family business, and then they have They have economic resources to invite grandparents to to stay. And the second way with our published the paper. We also talked about the raw conflicts

514
01:43:25.360 --> 01:43:53.460
of grandparents in China, because in China grandparents foods arrived very early, like 10 years early, and European grandparents so normally easy how to take care of their fathers and their parents and their children sometimes, and the grandchildren. So when compared always so many different care rows Who they decide to take was a preference of them. it's a quite important question

515
01:43:56.840 --> 01:43:58.530
more personal, if

516
01:44:06.420 --> 01:44:17.109
that's of a question and more of a statement of thoughts to Miss Lee, young Cho in terms of the interview tips for children that you kind of

517
01:44:17.300 --> 01:44:22.479
wanted. I've done some interviews with kids, children

518
01:44:22.710 --> 01:44:33.810
longitudinal generally in regards to ergonomics and classroom design. and from memory. This is a quite a few years ago, but from memory it was

519
01:44:33.910 --> 01:44:42.939
Children aged 4 to 8, and what helped me in in those interviews was lots of storytelling and

520
01:44:44.380 --> 01:44:54.340
visual aids as well. but also toys like I would bring different toys like, for instance, different toys and different sizes, and say, Well, you know what

521
01:44:54.580 --> 01:45:06.859
kind of see this Pinocchio toy like best? I was doing seats at the time, like what would be the most suited seat for a particular classroom for a particular child, especially children who

522
01:45:06.890 --> 01:45:11.130
potentially, we're not able-bodied and

523
01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:26.549
so that really worked well. So different kind of Teddy bears different sizes, different materials. And at times, when I did encountered children saying no or yes, or just giving me sort of monotonous

524
01:45:26.550 --> 01:45:41.989
or you know simple answers. I tended then to Have the parents be involved in that situation as well for them to edge or coax them a little bit, and I think that that helped at times, especially with the ones that possibly had

525
01:45:44.780 --> 01:45:49.530
resistance to my style. Potentially

526
01:45:49.590 --> 01:45:57.940
food also helped. I was working in a Muslim country at the time. So it was particular foods

527
01:45:58.040 --> 01:46:06.240
from different regions that really helped. But yeah, those are some of the things that help to me just for your information. Thank you.

528
01:46:06.480 --> 01:46:12.589
Youngcho Lee: thanks so much. Would you mind leaving your research in the chat so I can also check it out.

529
01:46:19.100 --> 01:46:20.240
Oh, okay.

530
01:46:21.890 --> 01:46:26.530
put a face to the voice.

531
01:46:26.980 --> 01:46:48.840
that's my face. Hello But yes, I will. Email you. I've sent. I've I've I've I've taken taken a photo of your email. So I'll I'll send you an email. I was an external researcher. So it wasn't my personal research. But I was like a subcontractor kind of thing. but I will. I will let you know. Thanks, thanks. So much.

532
01:46:49.190 --> 01:46:51.050
So the yeah.

533
01:46:52.090 --> 01:46:54.119
But it

534
01:46:54.180 --> 01:47:16.129
okay. More for comments. Oh, just okay. It's more for comment on a question, and it's directed in the Zima regulation, especially I think last night we had a rack meeting for women, gender and society. And we're just talking from different parts of the world. And there was research there from Japan, which is done a lot of work in South Korea, and we're talking about how women, particularly

535
01:47:16.180 --> 01:47:41.780
young middle class women, do not want to get married. All have children. There are different reasons. And I guess in her context it was just. It's too expensive to have children. But in so I, for a lot of women doing when I have children, because they don't want to be single parents, you know, because they were as best in parents. So I think this body of work could be important, interesting to show another perspective of how fatherhood doesn't necessarily have to be

536
01:47:41.930 --> 01:47:44.930
traditional. So that's my comment.

537
01:47:55.650 --> 01:47:57.130
Yeah.

538
01:47:57.380 --> 01:48:03.359
And just to add, I think it's very useful within the South African context

539
01:48:03.690 --> 01:48:07.650
about the following, and how things are changing now.

540
01:48:07.710 --> 01:48:16.329
because sometimes women prioritize their career more and one and don't want to have children. I think that's okay.

541
01:48:16.410 --> 01:48:23.700
But in my study particularly, I'm looking at how fathers who are not married

542
01:48:23.830 --> 01:48:28.620
and do have children, how they involve me in K

543
01:48:28.720 --> 01:48:30.560
is

544
01:48:30.990 --> 01:48:44.640
how they, how they construct a even if they're not married to the matters given the context that you know, a lot of unmarried families, and also people did to force

545
01:48:51.230 --> 01:48:58.760
thank you so much, all of you, for a very interesting contributions to our field.

546
01:49:00.990 --> 01:49:07.580
and I think I could address this question, or actually, I'm going to point to some research gaps here.

547
01:49:07.640 --> 01:49:14.099
I probably couldn't address it to all of you, although I think it's closer to Casey.

548
01:49:14.750 --> 01:49:21.999
And the first I can't remember your name. Sorry the first speaker today that I heard. Oh, my Amy.

549
01:49:22.180 --> 01:49:26.180
I heard you on the trial today. So

550
01:49:26.280 --> 01:49:27.739
I'm from Norway.

551
01:49:27.910 --> 01:49:33.030
We have long leaves for fathers, and

552
01:49:33.110 --> 01:49:34.420
there has been

553
01:49:34.750 --> 01:49:45.970
a development over the years that fatherhood, especially for the young children, because that's when they have their leave. It has become a big project.

554
01:49:46.180 --> 01:49:51.439
How am I as the father father is? being a father is a big identity question.

555
01:49:51.560 --> 01:49:53.829
We see they have their own blogs.

556
01:49:54.120 --> 01:50:06.409
they have their own chat rooms, they meet up with their trolley and their babies, and they do man things with their babies, you know, and it's a big thing. But usually this is like, I mean.

557
01:50:06.780 --> 01:50:08.970
not usually

558
01:50:09.130 --> 01:50:11.770
predominantly. This is a middle class

559
01:50:11.930 --> 01:50:20.889
activity to find out. You know it's a self fulfillment project for the you know. Who am I? As a father? It's a

560
01:50:21.400 --> 01:50:34.660
very egoistic. It's more about the father than the the relationship with the baby many times. And I've seen some research also looking at the class issue here that

561
01:50:35.710 --> 01:50:53.860
 the working class fathers have a tendency to not, you know, group together and and do the identity project, but rather prepare. How are we going to do this as a family later on. How are we going to share

562
01:50:54.340 --> 01:51:03.279
tasks and the jobs and all that? So, so that is the one thing that I want to challenge you on, and that

563
01:51:04.140 --> 01:51:11.039
in the families the parenting is not just sharing times and tasks, but is also an identity project.

564
01:51:11.380 --> 01:51:30.280
And do you know? Or would you like to move on to maybe studying, parenting from our fatherhood, from studying blogs, studying? What do they actually do? What is this new modern form of fatherhood.

565
01:51:30.760 --> 01:51:40.190
More the content. So I think that's a research cap. That's something that we need to know more about.  okay.

566
01:51:40.910 --> 01:51:42.610
am I losing myself here.

567
01:51:49.020 --> 01:51:54.619
Yeah, the other thing. Okay? Because I had the the second point. And that's

568
01:51:55.870 --> 01:52:03.759
okay. Let me just post that first question, and then maybe next session. I'll take the other one.

569
01:52:04.490 --> 01:52:21.559
I mean, I think I take your comment in maybe a slightly different direction. I do take the critique about the middle class piece in one of the areas of research that I didn't share just due to time. But that we're deeply interested is understanding

570
01:52:21.560 --> 01:52:51.339
how these policies reach not just the middle class, but other workers, understanding how they reach people working in the informal economy, understand the self-employed low wage workers because these policies don't effectively reach all of those. so that is a deep, expanding part of our research. And I think the other point you bring up is, this is really about infancy. And I think that's why we're trying to look to about what happens once you get beyond there. And that is where a lot of the policy support

571
01:52:51.340 --> 01:53:11.850
drops off, and we did a separate piece around the pandemic where you've got these great policies for infants. What happened when we had the school closures. What happened when childcare centers closed? There was a lot less policy for for that. Some countries built on what they had for caregiving during the infancy, and that it really was only in

572
01:53:11.850 --> 01:53:26.599
high-income settings, and there were massive gaps. So I think that's all you know, understanding how we hit caregiving in in our day-to-day lives. Once children get past the baby stage because there is still.

573
01:53:27.320 --> 01:53:37.789
Thank you very much for your high quality and wonderful presentation, and I appreciate it very much that you stick to that time, that I was very worried tomorrow, and I saw a number of presentations.

574
01:53:37.830 --> 01:53:50.000
So thank you. Thank you very much. We have to finish. We go to the next session. Yeah. And you guys stay here. Thank you.