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awesome. Okay? thank you, everyone, and welcome to this session, organized by a tinder cower who is on the zoom. Call my name is Liz Ablett. So I've been asked to chair this session.

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and we've got 3 fantastic papers and very interesting papers to to come today, and then we'll take each presenter in turn and then have a discussion afterwards. Which should be fantastic.

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So I'd like to begin with the acknowledgment of country.

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So, on behalf of everyone gathered, I pay respect to the spirit of country. Here in Nam, where we are meeting, I I acknowledged the past and present cooling nation war, and Jerry Woiwarong as the sovereign people. Here the cultural knowledge holders who maintain and promote the norm aboriginal law, customs and custodianship responsibilities for country and the people. That country continues to sustain generation after generation into the future. For all of us

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I recognize the important contribution that first nations, thinkers in particular have made to sociology, including important challenges to our dominant ways of thinking. We thank all first nations delegates

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in the room today and joining us online for their contributions to knowledge in the distance and beyond. so, thank you very much.

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I'm just going to load up the present first presentation.

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This. Yeah, that's just

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to show screen again.

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Just that little. It's just not.

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That's fine. Isn't that? Yeah, yeah, okay. And if you're ready, if you're okay to present here. And you can move.

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Yeah. So it should be one of these to go across. Is that where? Down?

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Okay?

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Yeah.

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Yeah. And also because I, okay, okay.

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I see here, right? And yeah, if you stand here, then they can see you through the cameras that see? Okay, okay, thank you for about 15 min. Let me know. Let me.

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Hello! Hi, everyone. I'm Anna Tang from Taiwan National, San Jose University today. My presentation title is transnational, coordinated work, new immigrant women's lived experience in the intersectional institutions.

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Inspired by Dorothy Smith's feminist standpoint, I did my fuel work in a town on the East Coast of the United States of America. It's a quite a liberal, small city, and about 25 for non-born and 18% Asian

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I did my research, because my from my own personal experience about a modeling 10 years ago, when I get a chance to as a visiting scholar in United States, I bring with my 10 years old, son. At that time I feel it's very hard to find a good day after school. Care for my son and I are struggling about my

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my own career and my son's care, so I think I'm quite interested about even. I only stayed there one year. I quite interested about why the Taiwanese middle class women immigrant to the United States. And my question is, what are these women's migration trajectory and lived experiences?

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Okay? I interviewed about 34 women, and most of them told me why I immigrant to United States because for a better life.

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and then they talk more about their stories. And let me tell you one very typical story about these these women's leeway.

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She had told me that the reason why she choose to immigrate to the States was that she didn't want to get give up on her kids.

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Leeway's oldest son, shaming was born in the States during a short visit she made with her husband.

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like many other Taiwanese rich family, have baby in the United States. When Xiao Ming was, too, he was diagnosed with autism.

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unable to find a neutering and supportive educational facility in Taiwan. After years of searching Li Hui decided to bring shaming with her to the States, where she could find an excellent special education boarding school

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according to information provided by Taiwanese doctors. They are

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special lies in this field. It was 1,991 when shaming was 8 and the liquid was 33

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: living to younger children, to her husband's care in Taiwan.

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: Yeah, now it is okay. Now it's okay.

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Since shaming is an American. He received 4 tuition subsidies from the State Government soon after

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Leeway returned to Taiwan, because Vo. Has no United States passport. However, Lee, who realized at that time that she couldn't bear to have Charming alone in the States

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liquid, decided to bring her 4 and 2 years old, children with her to the States, and leave her husband in Taiwan for making money to so support their whole family.

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We were once applied to universities so that she could stay in the States legally on the student visa. However, she later found out that it's extremely difficult to

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jungle between school work and taking care of her children specifically, because elementary school ends at 2 in the afternoon, and the kindergarten ends even earlier. At 1130 30 A. M. Eventually Leeway decided to quit

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leeway remembered one incident before they obtained permanent residence status. When Shaming's grandfather passed away. She brought the 3 children with her to attend a funeral in Taiwan, due to immigration issues they were

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are from re-entering the States. All 3 children and their mother were detained overnight in a small room at the airport.

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It was a herd-wrenching experience. Finally, charming school President solved the problem for them.

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After let Act incident, leeway and her children were afraid to go back to Taiwan again. For the next 3 years Li Hui raised all 3 kids on her own. The long period of separation from her husband caused the most pain in her early immigration life.

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Zhang, who was a medical doctor running a clinic in Taiwan, eventually caused his clinic. which had been a source of steady and a substantial income, and moved to the States to be with his wife and kids.

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Already in her early forties Zichiang had a hard time switching to a new career which is about a It technician. He was laid off several times and constantly changing his jobs. He was nearly pronounced into depression.

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Whenever Xiang lost his job it was Leeway's turn to find one.

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It was easier for leeway to get employed in the States because she was willing to take entry-level jobs. She was willing to swallow her pride, she said, when you are living under other people's roofs

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you have to swallow your pride.

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They were emphasized to me. The Prince poached she lived by. If you cannot stand up on your own, it won't be able to help your kids

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over the years in order to maintain a work visa, the who has taken lots of demanding labor jobs at the expense of her health. Nevertheless, she was willing to give up everything she hold she had in Taiwan, and immigrated to the States for the sake of her family.

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It's her strong will and her love of her children that got her through years of hardship. However, looking back on the 30 years journey, we still feel the pain of the struggle.

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So from me. His story. I used the transnational institutional ethnography perspective to analyze my interviewees.

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they are all different. Mostly they are trailing. Wives come with husband to states or marriage migration. They for love and migration. Daughters come with their parents, or study mom by themselves for children's education, so move to immigrant to States

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from their migration biography. I argued that these middle-class women's, they are relational, situational migration. They are beloved daughter, faithful wife, or committed mothers.

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However, they

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have this juncture experiences. Most of them ask themselves, Am I a good immigrant and a good mother, too?

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Personal family and social expectations from course, border intersectional institutions, inference, their identity and their actions. I look into those women's work.

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how geared into transnational institutions.

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And I use my an electrical, transnational, analytical methodology to expand from micro-maker and especially meso level, to see the transnational division of labor and the socio-economic networks. How make, through their difficulties during the migration process?

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My interview is, are all from middle class background. They have class and gender privilege, so-called mobile privilege and domestic mass domesticity, privilege. They can have a support from Taiwan, or they from their family or husband, to stay at home. Mostly most of them are stay at home. Moms even they are. They have job in career. In Taiwan.

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however, the the the process is quite difficult, because from short-term working visa to permanent residency until you get the situation is about 10 years average.

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So

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they are quite suffering about. from Korea women become a housewife, and they kind of privilege for other people for outsider. But they suffering about, they love my migration.

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How do they overcome these kind of difficulties? Most of them told me. Time will solve everything

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after 3 years. They? You know they they say, I'm fine. We are. We are okay. But for me, I think from my real frictions, I think gender the agencies they exercise to get through the kind of ruling relations from both sides, country and society and families. So I look into mother's identity and action under

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migration regimes from transnational. And see, look into, how do they manage the family division of labor? And what's their labor and social participations, and based on the transnational social networks they built.

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So.

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first of all, the regions, immigration regions, either Taiwan or Americans supply their opportunity and restrictions. Both

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look into the both text. The most important text is the migration law of U.S.A.

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The like family reunification policy make a lot of Taiwanese families get reunified.

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The episode. Many women get a chance to go to the United States and from the social side. you know many. business like immigration company, or lawyers push the rich people to apply for the visa.

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And so I argue that this, those women, they have their kind of mixed identity under the course border context, and they exercise their agency, use their strategic actions, to go through their ruling relations, and To achieve their dream about their family taking care of kids and their own identity.

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So what's their identity? They they, they redefine what is work?

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Not only work outside.

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including working work at home or in the school volunteer, or in the ethnic group.

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and they use their kind of flexibility to balance self and the family needs and raise their identification as a migration mother.

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So they built up the immigrant capital by maintaining all this tie from Taiwan and establish a new relationship in Thai, in States.

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and like they, they go to church, Chinese church, Chinese church. raise their kids and go to the Temple, and they even have Taiwanese English bilingual program church.

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and especially those middle class mothers. They are quite capable about making connections. Companies, Mums connection. Take a village every Friday morning. They have meeting, bring kids and share a lot of information. What the immigration immigrants need like, how to prepare clothes for coming winter. For the new immigrants online of life. They have groups, have connections, and they do that kind of transnational upbringing.

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Pray, the hybrid demander who to role and use their privilege, the economic background, education, background even they are only a housewife, but they are

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as a middle class, my

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and model minority Asian moms in the community. They face another kind of contradictory Reflection! They told me, we need to maintain middle class American community's expectation of that from Taiwan's side. The government have a community center for them, and the Taiwanese day one.

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They need to be mobilized to most our mothers to cook a Chinese food Asian food, and they train their kids to play the Asian dance style, but not in Taiwan. They don't like this kind of culture, but they are in the United States. They need to maintain or to

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satisfy the Western eyes.

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so they always face their kind of double social expectations, they always ask, Am I a good immigrant? Am I a good wife and mother? In front of the original country, Taiwan, and also in United States. So they struggling about the kind of double

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double expectations they try to figure out what is the best for them. So it's quite a mixed identity and quite a hybrid motherhood.

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And so I developed this kind of cross-border mixedness to describe this new immigrant mothers. They are first generation there, and under the transnational intersectional institutions that develop their mixed identities.

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to, to to handle their division of labor, and to to to to promote their ethnic network and maintain all time, and to do hybrid motherhood to achieve.

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to race, or to make sure they are

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good immigrant mothers.

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ideology and image in both Taiwan and the United States.

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Thank you.

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Thank you so much. I have that really interesting insight into the disjunctures between those dual expectations.

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Stop sharing

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so, Andrew, you should be able to share your screen.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Yes, I already did

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so. We now have one Ju Chang who is going to speak about risks. Of the risk management in child protective services in Taiwan. So when you're ready, I'm just going to move that down.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Okay.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Yes. how there is my honor to present my study in. I saw, since I don't have the sociology background. The subject I'll be presenting today is a risk of the risk management in transportation services in Taiwan. So okay, let's get started.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Let's see.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Okay.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: I need to go to next page. See?

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We don't have access to that you should be able to click on to your next slide.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: No, I can't. I

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on the left hand side of your screen, do you have? I can see a list of your slides. Can you click on to slide 2?

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Wan-Juo Cheng: No, I can't see the see.

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 it just kind of message the support. But you so I don't know if you can see on your screen, on our screen we can see a list of your. We can do the main slide, and then a list of slides on the

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Wan-Juo Cheng: all right, let's get started. So in traditional Chinese, the progress in Mandarin Young, we we should go up with that share this in a similar sentiment to Western questions, saying, Spare Ross vo. The trial off of which, emphasize the legitimacy of a corporate punishment in traditional operating. However, in the past few days they

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Wan-Juo Cheng: case research, study has half revealed that copper punishments is not only ineffective.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: This this methods, but also cost hum, such as choice, aggressive

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Wan-Juo Cheng: behaviors. In 2,006, the UN. Committed on the rise of the chop the child passed past the right of the child to protection from couple of punishment, and the other call or degrading forms of a punishment. Taiwan, despite not.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: and you and Member enacted the protection of children and their youth welfare and the Rice Act, E. It gives the State the right to intervene by assisting parents and the caregivers whose children are reported to cps because of the

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Wan-Juo Cheng: to adopt positive or democratic parenting methods.

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Let's go.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: however.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: parents often feel unjust and angry, living to hostile and on cooperative attitudes to state interventions.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: No doubt they would be resistant or relocated from the perspective of service provider. They are a variety of complex factors contributing to resistance or relocat. To see among them is that the Cps assessment are are still based on middle class parenting standards, making parents found lower socioeconomic backgrounds more more vulnerable.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: They will fear of the social stigma and of abuser or bad parents

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Wan-Juo Cheng: on the literature because of

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Wan-Juo Cheng: because the time limit. I will only address 1 point.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: That's a child protection pop policy, upheld by expert knowledge, represent the modernity of Cps

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Wan-Juo Cheng: risk assessment draft from baked notion of risk. Society has extensively applied in child protection practice. It's belief that the risk children's face can be major and the manage and the therefore the potential harm can, and it should be prevented. Consequently, in practice, social worker come that risk assessment and the further implement, 250

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Wan-Juo Cheng: intervention based on results of risk assessments to mitigate and the manage identify risks.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: So in contrast to condition, this point centering on choice behavior problem.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: science based parenting has shift the focus of state intervention to parents. Parents are increasingly held accountable by cps, and they're required to cooperate with professional asperger to improve their parenting skills.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Yeah, there's a lot of

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Wan-Juo Cheng: viewpoints of parents regarding the institution of Cps. Accordingly.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: this study, taking the a standpoint of parents involved in the cps due to the couple, punishment for their children, and to asplicate the institution of the chalk protection with the emphasis on risk and the further to address social power relations invaded within

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Wan-Juo Cheng: institutional ethnography at was adopted. like college data collection, include participants.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: observation amended parenting education programs and the interviews with the parents, social workers

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Wan-Juo Cheng: and the counseling psychologist in 30 participant observations of mandate parenting education classes. My parents were included in the 20 interviews were conduct. I also collect takes it as shown. Let's go into results.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: I will begin with this juncture. The parents experience. I made this a table to contract the between parents, actuality and the institutional

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Wan-Juo Cheng: reality

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Wan-Juo Cheng: in parents that I actuality this point progress like communication first, and then use a reward to reinforce.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: When the the above these will work out. The parent raised their voice. Couple of punishment was one last attempt, intending to cost children to experience pain in order to correct their wrongdoing. Yet

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Wan-Juo Cheng: in institutional reality copper punishment is view. As a child. Male treatment spanking is not allowed. Have a good communication with children always. Instead it into.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: as John said, why, I'm required to attend this parenting classes he is playing. He's playing games on his cell phone. It's not helpful. It's a punishment for me

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Wan-Juo Cheng: tech teams. Dloma. As another example, his son pushed grandfather against Wall, which incidents outrage all family members. He struck his son with A. R. And then was reported to the Cbs. In the interview, he said, and then that father, one way or the other phone Jack, is notion of forms of life. Parenting is

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Wan-Juo Cheng: a symbol of a social practice that embodies cultural norms as a father team was expected to do something given. The circumstance, however, couple punishment is a view as a violation to children's right

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Wan-Juo Cheng: as a father team should have communicate with his son

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Positive and the and the democratic parenting style as a force of life for this parent children

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Wan-Juo Cheng: that the Cps has imposed on the parents. They, they, they stabilizing the parents, existing forms of life in accordance with the cultural norm.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Parents believe that the institutional forms of life cannot help dealing with their children's problems. It's stayed by one counseling psychologist

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Wan-Juo Cheng: insurance problem may not be improved despite that per refrain from using corporal punishment.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: All you lift parents, I'm sure of how to disappoint their children and the feeling hopeless.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Another results

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Wan-Juo Cheng: parental awareness. aware awareness of risk components of A/C and safety assessment cps, social work in employee to conduct, analysis of risk, increase, child vulnerabilities, danger.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: parental ability of protection, safety, intervention and the safety decision, the concept of risk and the risk management had less social worker to school the nice with it. The parents still use couple of punishment for their children and the counseling psychologist to emphasize. No hating in effectiveness of physical punishment and the power of

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Wan-Juo Cheng: positive parenting in the mandatory parenting education classes, however, most parents either remains silent or scored their cell phone to get it through.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: During cop coffee break of one class things share his understanding of parenting. As I at this point with love.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: where she has been worked by other parents, saying there should be absolutely no strict desk point, it's dangerous, and that you might get reported again. One realization that disappoint become risk for the parent resulting dramatical change in the in parenting approaches, such as letting go completely or keeping the child at distance.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Such parenting standards were just the 5,

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Wan-Juo Cheng: as Mary said, they told me, parents to respect, and the decision. So, despite the fact that the parent no longer use the corporate punishment. It doesn't mean they have become. And then such change could contribute

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Wan-Juo Cheng: could attribute to state

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Wan-Juo Cheng: intervention. As best stated, I just want to get the Cp. And things over

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Wan-Juo Cheng: on temporary conclusion. They find the parents slowly based on their disappointment. Behaviors overlook

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Wan-Juo Cheng: the efforts they have made within their social circumstances, to raise their children as a responsible citizen far to take those factors into account results. Parents struggles to cooperate

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Wan-Juo Cheng: additionally, State intervention primary center on parents. Yeah, you felt to acknowledge that the parenting style are reciprocally influenced by the child's behavior and interactive dynamics. Consequently it became imperative to include the child in the services to ensure comprehensive support to the family.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Thank you.

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Thank you so much. Some really interesting conversations, I think, between the the first 2 papers.

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So we now have the final paper which I'm just going to bring up.

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That is Chen Wayne's paper.

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Chen Wang: Hello, everyone! It's great to be here present in my research. Could you hear me?

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Just 1 s and sorry we're just? Maybe it might be better if they share their screen. Or is this how we?

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Oh, yeah, actually. So if I stop share, just because then we would have to.

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Sorry, Chen, are you okay to share your screen.

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Chen Wang: Sure, I will do it right now and try pick a scroll down.

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Chen Wang: Oh, yeah, I think it works right.

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Yeah, that's great. Excellent, thank you. Whenever you're ready.

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Chen Wang: hey? thank you. I'm very happy to be here presenting my paper I'm connecting in from China. But I

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Chen Wang: did this research in Canada while I was doing my Phd work, and as my Phd project is larger, I took part of that to formulate this presentation.

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Chen Wang: my research studies professional Chinese immigrants and their host migrants experiencing kind of Canada. I'm very interested in their career restoration experiences, but when I up explore that, I realize that their language, acquisition, experiences the important factor that we can never bypass. So this paper will be talking about

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Chen Wang: the links between their language, acquisition, experience, and their career restoration opportunities in Canada. first, I will give you a little background on this topic. If you're coming from immigrant receiving countries, you will be very familiar with those scenarios. For example, Canada has a good reputation of attracting professional immigrants from all of the world

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Chen Wang: driven by the neoliberal rationale of migration pause making. But we often see immigrants, especially those with highly scales, are under employed or unemployed. As our first. The speaker has presented and happened in Canada as well.

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Chen Wang: And if we look at that situation from a gender lens, we know that gender equality has always been one of the most important working priorities of the Canadian Government. But we also know that racial, highest member women are usually the most vulnerable and marginalized.

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Chen Wang: And what's more interesting is that Canada allocate a lot of foundings to help immigrants with their settlement translation every year, and the language training component accounts for the largest of propulsion. If I remember correctly, it will be close to 50%.

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Chen Wang: So we all know that language training is very important. But when I conduct my field research, I hear people complain a lot about the number of training services, especially from those professional Chinese member women. They almost gave me very hard criticism on that saying, the service is useless in the effective or something like that.

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Chen Wang: and it's very rare for Chinese immigrants to to criticize the system in such a harsh way. So here's the background. Makes me see that Canada's

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Chen Wang: migration policies from immigration animation to their settlement are not quite consistent. There are cracks in between. That's why we don't achieve the results we want to achieve. So that's why we have this research project. here's my research design.

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Chen Wang: I received my ethic approval in 2,019, and with one year extension they last until 2,021 I. I'm mostly based in Ottawa at a time. So I, although I didn't claim it to be a it. It is a participant observation research.

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Chen Wang: I think I have emerged myself long enough in that community. And I conduct interviews. That's what I always co-laying as my research methods. And I also organize this 3 months Phil. Trip to Edmonton, where I have personal connections with Chinese communities there, and while I was in Adam and I got one friend colony in from Victoria, and she was to be interviewed over the telephone.

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Chen Wang: So I have conducted a 30 interviews

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Chen Wang: with professional Chinese Internet women on this topic, and they are in mandarin for my second level of data collection. I interviewed 10 language acquisition experts whose work is part of the link service delivery that includes program coordinators, language assessors.

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Chen Wang: yes, our teachers, and I also have one employment related service coordinator. He gives us so many insects on how the founding regime works within the government, between a government and a service delivery partners. so

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Chen Wang: here is my research steps. I have a bigger picture here. using the Ie methodology. I will start by looking at about women

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Chen Wang: and their knowledge producer from their standpoint about the system. it is not quite hard for me to do so, because I'm one of that group.

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Chen Wang: And

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Chen Wang: after that, if I understand correctly, we need to find several puzzling events to look through and to analyze how the rolling relations works. And if I understand correctly

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Chen Wang: as researchers, we cannot analyze every a stack of the ruling relations. So it's researchers decision on truth which us back of the ruling relations we study. So I

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Chen Wang: summarize those 3 most important parts from immigrants, you know women's stories, and they gave me a quite complete process from language assessing to instructing. And then they're in

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Chen Wang: interesting point about how the coordinators think the services are and how ingredients think the services are and that is within the framework where link

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Chen Wang: social workers produce that kind of story. And behind the link

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Chen Wang: working regime, we also have the government giving instructions on how to do the service, and I was able to find several textual information, because since the 1,990, the Canadian Government is trying to giving instructions, like national

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Chen Wang: language, placement and progression guidelines and other guidelines for curriculum building. They want to bring a level of consistency across the country about the instruction. At the same time we also see the main way, link

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Chen Wang: service providers. We still have some flexibility in creating the the service and how to select a course materials which methods they use to instruct the immigrants.

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Chen Wang: So here is from the standpoint problematic until the roller relationship relations, I will present the findings in the end. So the problematic, I find from professional Chinese something about what is

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Chen Wang: they think the government services regarding language training is very ineffective, and if we think about their background we'll understand why they're coming from doing home families, having good jobs, good advocations before they come to Canada, and once they are in the Canada they would relax tensely acceptable jobs. But they won't be satisfied with the situation.

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Chen Wang: What they really want is to restore their career status. So when I ask the questions, what is the biggest, the barrier that prevents you from Lenny? A good job in Canada? Almost all member women say language or English, they're the same kind of answer. And starting from that, they work that question the government policy like.

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Chen Wang: why, I'm

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Chen Wang: allowed to come here. My occupation was on the lease to that is mostly needed, or didn't we need it in the country? But why they don't want to use my scales here. So when I start questing the whole system with policy intentions, we know the the policy delivery is going to a back that direction. So the first pass, when you once allows me to see the run of relations, is very specific stories about

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Chen Wang: past the the way they take past. So I have some participants reporting that their bad experience with the language assessment

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Chen Wang: Starting from the Government's guidelines, the guidelines is very concise, but it has a clear instructions. It says, when the assizers want to test that has to takers, they would give successive tasks which gradually increase in difficulty. So that's the where the question comes how far the test they should go. Sometimes language assessors might score immigrants in accurately.

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Chen Wang: but not asking higher level questions due to their internal bias. So the lines between sufficiently challenged and being over, well, it's very ambiguous. So immigrants sometimes get this unhappy about that and

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Chen Wang: So there are some more detailed issues about testing methods. So one immigrant saying, when she was asked to listen to a sound clip At first the in the first. In her first test she was asked to provide short answers to questions, but in her second test that she was asked to retelling the whole stories that makes her unprepared. She thinks, it was a test that testing her memory instead of how much she understood.

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Chen Wang: So that is the tensions between test to papers and language assessors. Immigrants always feel their better ways that can show their better performance in the past, so they can, so they can be placed at a higher level of class, and that will shorten a time to be trained in a system, so they will get to certificate and a fine job early. But when I interviewed

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Chen Wang: they're not very often to talk about this questions. But first I will say immigrants are not allowed to retake the past because they, their language skills, will change within the shuffle period time. But when I point out immigrants saying, Your custom method is problematic, they will say, Oh, the language assessing centers short handed. We don't have the foundings to get sufficient persons to help them take

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Chen Wang: as much as many times as they want. So that is one thing about the language assessing process the time is limited. So I will go quickly to the language instructing process.

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Chen Wang: So. The second part is, immigrants frequently say that the link was too easy for us, so they criticized saying the teaching quality as moderate, or the saying that the course material is in the properly chosen and but but to

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Chen Wang: to my, in my impression, it wouldn't be. It would be unfair to criticize the teachers because they're all qualified teachers. What the immigrants want to say is that the course design doesn't f them. For example, one immigrant plane, she said.

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Chen Wang: After she come busing, inquires door to door. She got a kind inquire, or point out that we would hire you as well as your English is good because they have no doubt about her professional knowledge.

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Chen Wang: So she went to the link program, but she find it was too easy, because she had a university degrees learning English before. And she, you think the the content was basic, and it what she needs is an advanced English that can enable her to communicate with professionals in her pills so she can find the job.

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Chen Wang: Similar experience has been reported by other immigrants. This environment was a teacher, and she attend the university. She equated Link program soon after she joined that, and she said, I

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Chen Wang: can learn what they teach in daily life by reading newspapers, for example, and she prefer saving the time for finding a job. But in the end this person she didn't find alternative ways to improve English as learning casually, is not very structured. She didn't find professional jobs in the end as well. So that reminds us how important it is to have a good service that can respond to professional immigrants needs.

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Chen Wang: So what our problem was this teaching process? if the immigrants assumed pattern of learning is to receive free language training and make requirements in a short time acquire language skills for job search and then secure job. But immigrants, servicing providers seems to want to keep those in grants longer in a project in the service program so that they can report a good service delivery outcomes.

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Chen Wang: and that becomes the interruption for professional Chinese in real wellness, career, restoration, because it's time consuming. And that reflects the mismatch between immigrants and the government's learning objectives, and same as long predecessors. The link instructors seems to like perpetually to the the Government's rationale while hiding what they found on the ground. The last part is about

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Chen Wang: a compliment to my previous stories. I interview link coordinators and ask them how they feel about the projects. At first they would usually say that the project is very good. Their service. Delivery is very good, and the immigrants achieved a lot in this program. But that was not reflecting the reality that in us tells me so.

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Chen Wang: So when, when we further discuss what are the goals of link, they would say that the go is to help any grants to be able to fully function in a society, and immigrants will learn a lot about Canada, about culture, everything else and the job search go is not the most important part, and they even say, if you are not looking for a job, Link will help you with such and such

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Chen Wang: But but we can't bypass the most important question that immigrants want to participate only because they think it can help them find the job. So when I ask the question directly, they will concede that link is a so-called low State program. Nobody link is considered fluent, even if you are at a highest level, and this resonate with our existing literature.

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Chen Wang: which says that occurring survival English is ready to paramount in a link program. So backing out the ruling relations. this to me, it's always the most, the challenge in part in the

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Chen Wang: 3 analyses. I'm hoping I get to the right direction now.

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Chen Wang: I find that at the government level, if you're really hiding behind the link to this framework has a little bit hard to find. there's still stereotypes against the professional immigrant women like We assume immigal women to be a company. Spouses, maybe don't need to work or take are happy with saliva jobs.

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Chen Wang: they assume the level of language proficiency that immigrants need in order to. I'm from the labor market in certain ways which satisfies the government, but not so satisfied with immigrants themselves.

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Chen Wang:  So that makes the government have them to to create

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Chen Wang: foundings for targeted services. Well, that fits immigrants into generic services that help everyone in the same way.

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Chen Wang: and the other

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Chen Wang:  level off rolling relations. I can map off from from the language service provider's perspective is that

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Chen Wang: what are the roles of assessors, instructors, and the coordinators in the program they tend to. want to promote in the Government's service rationale when they discovered something, what wrong they cannot afford, reporting that or revealing that to the public, because, as one coordinator said, they are competing for the foundings.

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Chen Wang: so they tend to propose generic services. The potential post services that has been proposed before, so they have a good estimation of how the outcomes will come out

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Chen Wang: and some text Nicole issues about assessment, and the instruction is that the language assessors and the instructors we found they do have some flexibility, but helping helping immigrants if they have a better understanding of what I needed by the immigrants. So here are some suggestions very specific to the link program. I will briefly mention that because the time is running out. so the suggestions tentatively, is

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Chen Wang: to raise the awareness about immigrants, diverse needs, and also making flexible access to the placement test as the language assessor mentioned that there are short hand date.

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Chen Wang: They they are getting phone into use computers. Why not develop computer based to test this? So they can read as many times and also including some specific suggestions like

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Chen Wang: developing career or at language trainings. if they have the resource and mentions, they go foundings for lunch acquisition services, because that's really important for immigrants, career restoration. And that's also beneficial for both Canada and for immigrants, because immigrants can find the best to use of their skills to contribute to the Canadian colony. So this is my research and the thank you for your attention, and I hope to

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Chen Wang: receive some comments. Thank you.

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Thank you so much. And what a fascinating paper! And I'm just gonna stop the screen.

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so thank you. 3 really. well, put together. A brilliant curation of of 3 papers! I think they really speak well to to each other. Without any other any kind of initial reflections, comments, questions, from the room or online.

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So, yes, yeah. And then we'll just bring up my 2

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Helen law from Trent University. I'm not a member of this working group. I'm I'm a member of our C. 13, and they're the next session. So I'm here, and I'm absolutely fascinated with your work.

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 I live in Edmonton.

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 and I'm wondering about the  the use of Canadian

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of those 2 cities, why those 2 cities, Ottawa and Edmonton, to examine the institutional experience of immigration.

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Thank you for methodological question is, why did you pick those 2 cities? Yes. Did you hear them? Okay.

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Chen Wang: yeah. I assume it's a question for me because I can.

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Chen Wang: Yeah, I received this qu questions when I do in my publications from many reviewers. To be honest is because I have a connections with those 2 Middle South, the cities. Sometimes I've justified that by a lot of people are researching immigrants, Chinese immigrants in those large cities, the 3 most largest cities of Toronto, Montreal.

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Chen Wang: and I'm on cover, but not so many literature. Look at those middle size, the cities, but but essentially the research design is from the researchers personal perspective. So I choose the side of the convenience where I have most of the connections with the communities. I can have different conversations with immigrant families and the community walkers there. I don't know if that is miss your expectation. If I

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Chen Wang: yes, it does. I I I would advocate, though in terms of how you

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might consider framing those locations versus the big cities

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is economic diversity.

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Ottawa is completely public service. That's what funds it. They say the streets are running with gold, right?

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And that's because there's a lot of money from the Federal Government flooding around and personal service workers are always in big demand, very different to a metropolis

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where contingent work is far more diverse.

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In Edmonton. It's all about oil, and it's interesting. I've not reviewed immigration data for Edmonton for decades.

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It makes sense to me that the growth of the oil patch there, after its decline 5 years ago has meant a a great increase of wealth once again for personal service workers. Now in terms of your sample, which were higher

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upper, or at least middle class workers in search of education. I completely understand that.

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but the the habit of Those workers is going to be very different from the big cities because of the density and concentration of of of living people will go with their people.

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And it's like that in Edmonton, and it's definitely like that in Ottawa, and this so in Ottawa, but definitely in Edmonton there's a big geographic area for Chinese immigrants where it's a first point of call, and then out again to somewhere

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other than that. Once inculturation has sort of started to evolve.

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But I I thoroughly enjoyed your your work, and I certainly look forward to reading about it.

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Chen Wang: Thank you so much. And thank you for giving me some suggestions about the Admin. yeah, I I kind of feel that it's like in big cities. We get more entrepreneurs, and they will have different expectation on the source of income. Probably they don't rely so much on finding professional jobs, but in on whether they work for the government over the high tech industry

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Chen Wang: they have some similarities.

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Chen Wang: Ask those people in adamant. Maybe they are working for the oil industries. They have to rely on the work to secure a family income. Thank you so much.

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Thank you.

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Well, thank you for all those 3 fascinating presentations and works. well, I'm from. I'm Wally from University of Test man in Australia, and I also do my Phd. Project about immigration entrepreneurs, but only focus on their migration process and experiences. So I have 2 classrooms for preference at Professor Town and the Wington

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for Professor Tong. You mentioned about privilege, the domesticity. And I think that is quite a cultural concept. Can you extend the the definition of the privilege, the domesticity, and

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just because in Australia the well we call it a dependent visa holder, like the the the housewife. They normally worry about to lose their visa when their relationship

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with their partner broken.

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So I do really want to hear about the the perception towards the privilege, the domesticity. And for Wong Tung. First of all

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it's great to know in Canada and in Australia. And it's it's it's it's it's great to know in Canada. And you know it's it's it's it's great to know in Canada and in Australia. It's it's it's it's great to know in Canada, and it's still migrants.

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experience the same dilemma like you mentioned about the occupational least, and I think normally, immigrants, skilled immigrants, are invited by the Government to dominate the policies, and then, just as threw them into a neoliberal system. but my question is about you mentioned. Your project is about post-migration experiences.

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and how do you define poster migration? that is quite important for me, because I see migration processes so quite long period when they even when they settle down in a city in Australia, they do need a lot of different kinds of visa to stay in Australia until maybe one

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each year, they can gather

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privilege of unconditional state. So how do you define person migration in your project. Thank you.

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Hannah. Did you want to respond first, or

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yes?

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thank you for your question. I think it's a very important question, because in Taiwan the middle class, especially the middle upper class, if they are husbands, are professional, like doctors or lawyers or businessmen, they make a lot of money, so they prefer their house there

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their wife stayed home, taking care of kids, especially especially they believe. we don't have good child care system, and if you send your parents to United States, the mother had better to stay with kids at home. So some

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middle class women, if they believe the kind of division of labor, traditional division of labor. They will say, Okay, I am a educated mom.

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professional mom. So if I'm still stay in Taiwan. I can work outside because I have support system. I can hire pewter at home, but in the United States it's too expensive, or I don't have connection to find good one. So it's a family agreement the wife become. believe it, it's a good choice.

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and they told me I'm so lucky I don't even work outside, like in Taiwan, because I have a good husband and good family economic background

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like that. So they but they still face the dilemma when I interview them, and they they told me some are like Harvard Law School graduation and say, Oh, if I'm in Taiwan just like you, I I'm a professional. But here I don't want to that kind of a position, because the most important thing is my children's

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 welfare. So for my family that's traditional thinking. And some of my interview is, they are like, have a Ph d. Or a very skilled very few. They work outside. But they choose like a research research work and can balance family care and their career.

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So that's what I mean, privilege domesticity. That's their idea.

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but most of them think there's better for my immigrant mother.

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not for Taiwanese mother, but especially immigrant mother, need to.

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just to to negotiate their proper position, especially when the children are young, and most of them when their kids go to college day, Going back to so going back to the labor market. But change different kind of job.

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Chen Wang: Hi.

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Chen Wang: yeah, thank you very much for the question from researchers in Australia. you're right, Australia and Canada. And they do have very similar immigration structures in terms of the categories, legal status, and all the rising tablets associated with their legal status. I. My background was in faculty of law. So my larger project

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Chen Wang: was it? That's contend, some legal analyses. So a simple class, a straightforward answer is my definition for post-memberation is is about a time of their survival, so if they are physically come to Canada, that's

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Chen Wang: of the time afterwards, is host to migration. Experience for me, but I can see it. Thank you for raising this important point. the change of the legal status, and during the time this day in Canada does have some impact on their knowledge about experience in Canada. So from usually they come on temporary status

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Chen Wang: and eventually transition to permanent residents and eventually become citizens. I believe the 2 that migration mode is similar in Canada and in Australia. Right now Canada, begin to promote in this 2 step migration about 10 years ago. So most people come on temporary status

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Chen Wang: in my research. You you see some really short interviews about 30 min. Those are mostly coming from temporary residents who just came. So they are tend to be very excited, and don't have a too much feelings about the martial organizations in the society. But what? And when we

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Chen Wang: find interviewees transitioning from temple residents to prone to residents over about 10 years of time, they will have a lot of stories to tell, and the same as people transitioning from from the resonance to citizens. So thank you. I can see the point you try to define post to migration. If you pick and a specific point.

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Chen Wang: they're in their whole migration process. I think it will be helpful to get some deeper in size and different perspectives on same topics. Thank you.

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Any other comments.

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A tinder. Yeah.

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: What do you think? Everyone? Well, I would like to. You just told your microphone a little bit closer. Okay.

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. First of all, I would like to congratulate all you presented for this presentation. It's one of the wonderful experience I have like the time I try to conceptualize this session we've tried to for that. We should make up something on electronic migration and mitigation. And we

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: so and I think it's nailed it like, give you the 3 presentation. It's wonderful, and the dot that it discuss about that how we can, the that in addition to that, we can use and mitigation. So I have to 1 30 from first to presenter when we

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: when she was talking about it from the national hybrid month, right that she was discussing about the this, children they are. They are trying to give them education, and they are still going, not college way. similarly, I did my research in Netherlands on the plan job, because I'm from Punjab and from India. Basically.

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: So I found that the children they they tried to. they are not ready to go call. They are ready to call themselves themselves Punjabi or Indian, but their culture is totally blended. They they are mostly in trying to work that culture, and they are following the Dutch control. The all the region, not on the region. They are coming to the Tooras on campus.

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: but still they, their Psyche, is changing. So I want to ask you the same with the question when the first first presentended, how? How their children, poking up the other situations.

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: how they are changed! Is there any change in their culture in their lifetime and given their living, living style, because that I founded they, they are in a dilemma in my case, like when I was in nether. So they were saying that we can't compromise our lifestyle

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: and our our parents are. They are just policing over us, and they were saying that we should follow at least so this kind of that they must. They are facing. yeah. Stick in the discussion with Chen ran the later to this. like you talk about that. They they are facing the issues related to language, and they have no

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: like in our India. We have so many small. You can say that we have many shops, so you can. We have save any English tutors, they those are giving the the so first it, this to training kind of courses where they can easily crack the that. And then they they are moving to Canada. And and you were talking about that. They are taking English for classes there

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: when they are moving together. So what? Why they are doing this? What is the reason behind that

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I'm not quite sure. I really understand your question, but I try to

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reflect what I heard.

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the middle class mothers! When they in Taiwan. They are professionals, but for type of mother. some are go with their parents, they are young when they are young, and some they are older when they are children, need they go with their, they bring their children to states, have better education, and some are marriage migration.

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 so they are all different, and they change their mind because they are quite

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situational and

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relational. Reason to move They believe their choice. They are quite, and you know Taiwan is, believe they are successful. They can.

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They can immigrate to the United States. That's a very successful thing for Taiwanese general people have this kind of.

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and for them they they think they must build their own community in the United States, so most of them are housewives.

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and when they go to the United States like me, I'm a professor in Taiwan, but when I as a visiting scholar in States, I looking for help because my husband just go there with me 2 weeks and go back to work, and only me and my son stay there for one year, and I suddenly feel I'm so scared of if something happened who can help me. So I try to find out my my connection. And the most important is Taiwanese community. I don't have any friends

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there. So the mother's group is most quickly.

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you know, a new tie I can make, and in the group, gradually I realize what they think they are not so-called. feminist, they think Families most important, the children most important, and sometimes I feel very struggle about. I don't have. I don't have that kind of perspective, but gradually I can understand why.

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because they must fit the expectation from the Taiwanese husband, or their or or so university, you know even I bring my son to the at the school, and the the American teacher say, Are you tiger, Mom?

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And I say, No, I'm not, but you know the expectations. Think your model minority. You are from rich country, you are from good background, you have. Phd. You are a good mother, so I try to figure out, what should I do there? So you know, gradually I change my mind. Okay, okay, what I why do I have here? I try my best, so I compromise a lot.

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I must pick up my son 2, 33, 30, as you know. Take care of him by myself whole year. Not like in Taiwan. I I don't know. It's Your question answered, and I answer your question. Sorry I don't.

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Yeah, thank you. I'm a thumbs up.

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and there there was a second question, which I believe was to Jen, one is that right at Tinto?

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Chen Wang: Great? Thank you for the questions.

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Chen Wang: So when I interview those Chinese Member women, they do have some experience, a lot of experience about learning English before coming to Canada. actually, as part of the immigration requirements. The scale workers has to reach certain levels of language proficiency in order to be eligible all those. Some of our women can come as family class. In that way they don't need to provide language test results.

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Chen Wang: but given their highly educated persons, they at least to receive some training at the university. So the

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Chen Wang: when I come to Canada, the experience of them is that what they learn in the classroom is very different from what they need at the workplace. And it's the same problem with the link. What people learn for daily activities will be very different from those needed for job interviews. So that that comes

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Chen Wang: the. So we we find 2 kinds of language barriers that immigrant women from China.

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Chen Wang: Experience first day is the actual language barriers if they are asked to apply for a government job, for example, that involves quite long answers, almost like writing an essay. So some embarrass can't do that that's an actual language of barriers. But sometimes they are perceived. The language barriers. So they they they don't need that language skills to the job, for example, is a Icd engineering job

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Chen Wang: as well as they can pass the interview. They can do the job perfectly. And also, similarly, we have the legal cases in Canada, like the case, was actually saying, speaking at

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Chen Wang: English wouldn't be a reason to reject the job candidates, but that's more difficult for Chinese, and as well, so sort of

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Chen Wang: yeah. I mean, they they did have some training, but that's not sufficient for them to function very well in the professional labor market.

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Chen Wang: and as Canada is attracting scale workers and they are skilled workers, I think it's worthwhile to spending some extra foundings to, to, to, to act as a facilitator for them to overcome the language barriers. And we use their skills. And in the current service framework they are Mingo with refugee use and immigrants from different countries with different backgrounds

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Chen Wang: that has benefits as well, but it for the class as you can imagine, people with different background will have different learning styles. So it's really hard to accommodate that needs. So my compos is to develop those targeted services

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Chen Wang: for

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Chen Wang: immigrants in China. That is my research. But as a limitation of my research, I didn't see check other groups, but I I assume future research could do this, and the proposed more responsive research for other groups as well.

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Thank you very much.

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Dr. Atinder Pal Kaur: thank you.

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Yes, I've got another question. I also have a question brewing.

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And I had another question for Anna. I was wondering. It's really interesting what you were describing about the sort of local American culture in your case, shaping how Taiwanese culture gets practised.

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in that context. But I was wondering, is that sort of how you see it? Do you see the American or the local culture in your case American culture to be shaping the the culture of the immigrant populations? Or do you see that in as sort of a interaction that maybe it's more complex than what I understood from representation does not make sense

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the local culture inference. Taiwanese. Mom's action. Yeah, sure. Sure. But you know, because the Taiwanese mom is the first generation, and most of them are, you know, like from 20 to 40, the age. So they don't have

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experience before 20. So they try to figure out what's the real American culture? So so where do they learn? They learn from older.

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older immigrants, mother? So so, so! What they learn is,

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 older immigrant mother's perspective about American culture. But it's quite Asian.

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quite mixed, you know. They don't have real. They don't really know what's the real American culture

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at the beginning. And gradually.

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yeah, right? Right?

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Yeah. And so so I you, I create the mixedness, mixedness, mother motherhood.

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you know, in Taiwan they think a professional woman or a woman should be independent. But in the United States it's not the case, because so many middle class

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white women stay at home, taking care of the kids and professional mom is a good value. And you know, they so they choose certain kinds of American value culture to maintain their identity

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to explain to me why you should learn from me. Because you are, too. You don't know. Here we not like in Taiwan. Don't send your kids to to after school until 6, and I told I told her. You know 6 is quite good for me, because but since they say no in United States. We don't do that. Good. Mother. Go to pick up your kids.

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If if you know the poor families send their kids to after school. Middle class. Don't do that.

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That's what I heard. So

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there we go. Can you? Can you all hear us online now?

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Yes, great, awesome. Thank you. Sorry. Transnational

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tech. thank you for those those great kind of contributions and questions. I have sort of a question, but it's not quite a question yet, so I don't want to be that annoying person that says it's more of a comment. But Did anybody else have a kind of reflection or anything they wanted to make, and if not, I might cheekily

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So I was interested in that I think something that tied all 3 papers was still here was around you know, translation and and and the work that people are doing to translate

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different discourses that they're entangled in whether it's like the the good immigrant good mother or the You know, science-based parenting that you were talking about when

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and I wondered about the politics of translation. I was particularly thinking about you, Professor Chang, who, framing the project initially as around the transnational institution of ethnography. and yeah, I guess just about how, if there are any issues or things that you you encountered around translation, translating those ideas, or conscious of, ie. Obviously emerging from a very kind of

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you know, Western centric and and still is dominated right in in Canada, and so on. So yeah, just if if any of you. Any of the speakers, I guess, had thoughts, or whether that came up as as particular

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issues, or

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even in the kind of specific methodology around how you encounter issues of translation, or in communicating your research or applying the ideas of Dorothy Smith and and others. so, yeah, just a kind of open question. If anyone

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had those.

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Yeah.

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I'm a premium, and I'm terribly solid from this market.

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Join the like. Yeah.

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yes, please. Danger. I'll just make one quick.

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I'm curious about the use of Dorothy Smith. and also I saw something called cultural or social capital up there at 1 point.

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and I'm wondering where Bordeaux or Putnam comes into your analysis in terms of Dorothy Smith.

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How do those 2 things come together? Should we take both reflections at the same time does it look? It's very okay.

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But mine is an extension of yours. It was a different question. Okay? Well, maybe we can start with

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if our questions are linked, and then we go on to the budget. And maybe whoever is the answer to that? I'm not sure who had it on their slides. But maybe they could take a second to think about that. And they link this question, is that, okay?

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So I was particularly interested in kind of that cultural translation around Western texts, and particularly the rights of the Child, which is written by the United Nations, really strong Western influence, and a document that you've picked up to to work through with the families that you were working with and interviewing. And I was really particularly interested around that cultural difficulty, perhaps, or cultural differences or cultural diversity. Or yet just

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talk to me about how you navigated that cultural difference, particularly when you're talking about parenting and parents who are almost in a punitive process

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that potentially the way I might interpret it to be a very Westernised response to things.

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And we can talk about. After that

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Andrew Chain. Did you have any thoughts or reflections on that? No pressure? But

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Wan-Juo Cheng: oh, not yet. I I'm still thinking

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right

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as a T. Anything you wanted to.

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Why I use transnational institutional ethnography just because when I read the Ies work, mostly, are we focused on?

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certain nation, a certain country. But I got the idea from Dorothy's missed idea about trans local

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and the tax.

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So I think now, globalization.

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a process make me feel like migration is quite a

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quite translocal, like the only middle class in Taiwan can read English, and they know how to

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 how to immigrant to other better countries. Western and English speaking.

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So it's quite power relations between 2 different area countries. So I think transnational institutional ethnography. Probably a good idea to expand that kind of intersection, social organization, especially now this first generation, Japanese mothers, they frequently back and forth.

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So it's quite transnational. Some some of them, when their kids, growing up, go to college, they return to Taiwan and their husband. You jury fry

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Back and forth between Taiwan and the United States. So the kind of global family, international, transnational family is a middle class or upcast normal.

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everyday life.

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So, and they kind of

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transnational ruling relations

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between Taiwan and the Western countries has become a

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new lifestyle.

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and they have a lot of power relations can exam, especially for women. So immigrant middle class mothers in Taiwan. Some Some people think they are quite conservative. They give up their own title, they just for their husband and for for their children, and give up their own identity as a housewife. But it's not the case.

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because they still build up their own community their own identity, and persuade most of Taiwanese mom, some day, if you can. You had better to do that like me. And so, you know, it's quite for me. It's quite contradictory.

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you know.

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But if you blame these middle-class immigrant mothers, it seems you don't

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you? You don't use the institutional perspective because it's not their own problem, right?

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They follow the kind of power, stroke their power structure to negotiate, how to how to achieve their children's, their husbands, the whore or's value cultural value, not their fault, not we don't blame person. We don't. Brand personal personal is political, is structured

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is structural problem, not a personal problem. Thank you.

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Thank you.

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So when you, Chen, I think our combined question, maybe I'll just try and summarize. that was around. Yeah, like you were saying about the Western discourses of rights to the child, but also the science

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science based parenting, and how the

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the difficulties, if there are some of how that might translate, I mean, and conscious of. You were saying, The resistances of the parents, you know, being silent in the classes or scrolling their phone that felt very like embodied resistance in in those moments to the, or perceived in position of those kind of discourses. So yeah, just wondering if you could elaborate a bit more on how those are being received, resisted, or enacted, those sort of

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Western discourses and others.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Okay, thanks. Well, parents, in this parenting education classes. No.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: they are not really. They are not resistance, they they are resistance. And they now cooperate.

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Yeah.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: because they are pretty. They they they feel angry. And the I'm just so. So they don't want to cooperate, but actually, in their daily life. this, parents, you know, absorbed modern parenting ideology. They still they believe you know they

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Wan-Juo Cheng: sure, nowadays is very different from their they are generations. So they are up to the Mo. The modern parenting skills. They talk to case first they communicate, they reward them.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: but when all of them don't work out, they they go back to the corporal punishment.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: they do value the coupon, the the fax of a Co. Upon it corporate punishment. then their achievement

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Wan-Juo Cheng: today. So

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Wan-Juo Cheng: I would say, you know, just like the the the parents told me that. they think they believe they are the parents who responsible for educating the their insurance to be responsible citizens

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Wan-Juo Cheng: for what he made by a responsible citizens. they indicate that they expect their children to be independent.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: to do things on their own. So

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Wan-Juo Cheng:  especially financially. So we still can see. they are currently still Co collect with

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Wan-Juo Cheng: a new libert ideology.

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Wan-Juo Cheng: Yeah. this one thinking, now.

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thank you. Thank you very much. We also had a question around use of concepts. And so I don't remember.

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Partner, man, I will say you mentioned bodier, so I'm not sure who had on their slide social capital. Was that you generally

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But someone referred to social capital and a person in the room would like to know about

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use of that tone with Dorothy Smith.

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If you are able to speak to them, that you they are curious about that.

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I guess it's in relation to some of, I think, all papers where we're talking about the resources that particularly middle class women are able to deploy in order to counteract some of these. you know the situations that there is thinking particularly of when you were talking about

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about survival English right? And and actually motivating all those personal forms of capital and resource that people might have. And if that's middle classness, or in some states, maybe gender you know, forms of capital to to navigate and negotiate those inequalities.

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yeah.

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it's going to be used.

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Alright.

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Thanks. Okay. So I'm going to read out from an interview with Dorothy, Dorothy from, I think the the nineties, when she's asked to to talk about.

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other, I guess, qualitative approaches and institutional Anthony, and she says I was reading something of Boja and his notice of a notion of habitat.

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and one of the notes of Have a habitat is tracking it. It resolves, you know, what sociology calls social, structural, or social organization into properties of the individual, and I think in general, that's the difficulty. It's the difficulty again, with many qualitative methods, in that they resolve things back into properties of individuals.

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Mit ctl, and I won't read all of it. But at the end she says that something you don't do in institutional ethnography. You start out with real people as individuals. You're learning from them about what they know, not taking them as data, I guess, with those kinds of properties. So that's I just thought might be of interest. Thank you. That was really helpful.

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 so if there are any other questions, comments, or reflections. I'm not sure what the time is where you both are online, but it's probably quite early or late.

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so we've got a little bit more time. But if if there's we're kind of coming to a natural end.

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I think we'll just give a round of applause for all our fantastic speakers. Thank you very much.

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Thank you. To those online for joining and yeah, thank you for bearing with the technical and yeah. Hope to see you in some further sessions. Thank you.